Engaging Experts
After 25 years helping litigators find the right expert witnesses, Round Table Group’s network contains some of the world’s greatest experts. On this podcast, we talk to some of them about what’s new in their field of study and their experience as expert witnesses.
Engaging Experts
Engaging with Panel Experts, Mr. Jonathan Klane, Mr. Mike Favetta, and Dr. Elliot Fishman
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Today’s episode is a panel discussion on expert relationships. Our panelists are Mr. Jonathan Klane, Mr. Mike Favetta, and Dr. Elliot Fishman.
Mr. Klane is the Senior Manager on the Safety Business Development Team at Draeger, a medical and safety technology firm. He is an experienced expert witness and a Ph.D. candidate in Human and Social Dimensions of Science and Technology at Arizona State University.
Mr. Favetta is a meteorologist and the owner of WeatherPrep, LLC., a meteorology consulting firm. In addition to meteorology, his expertise spans climatology and the environment. Mr. Favetta has over 13 years of experience as an expert witness. He has a bachelor’s in Atmospheric Sciences and Meteorology from Keene University.
Dr. Elliot Fishman is the founder and CEO of Astrina, Inc., an economist, and a sought-after expert witness. Dr. Fishman holds advanced degrees including an MBA from Wharton and a PhD from the University of Pennsylvania.
In this episode…
As expert witnesses, the way in which we are perceived is a matter of how we present ourselves. While some areas of expertise are more casual, others require a buttoned-up, professional demeanor at all times. It is important to interact with our peers, engaging attorneys and fact-finders in a manner that fits both our profession and role as an expert.
Listen to the entire episode as our panelists explore the relationships that expert witnesses will encounter.
Introduction to Expert Panel
Speaker 1This episode is brought to you by Roundtable Group, the experts on experts.
Speaker 2We've been connecting attorneys with experts for over 30 years. Find out more at roundtablegroupcom.
Speaker 3Welcome to Engaging Experts. I'm your host, noah Balmer, and today I'm excited to welcome three distinguished panelists to the show all returning guests. First off is Jonathan Klain, senior manager on the safety business development team at Drager, a medical and safety technology firm. He's an experienced expert witness and a PhD candidate in human and social dimensions of science and technology at Arizona State University. Mr Klain, thank you for joining us. Thank you, noah. Also joining us is Mike Favetta, a meteorologist and the owner of Weather Prep LLC, a meteorology consulting firm. In addition to meteorology, his expertise spans climatology and the environment. Mr Favetta has over 13 years of expert witness experience and holds a degree in atmospheric sciences and meteorology from Keene University. Mr Favetta, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 1Hey, noah, great to be back.
Speaker 3And finally, we're joined by Dr Elliot Fishman. He is the founder and CEO of Estrena Inc. A litigation support firm specializing in securities valuation. He is a sought-after expert, a PhD economist and a published author. He holds multiple advanced degrees, including a Wharton MBA and a PhD from the University of Pennsylvania. Dr Fishman, thank you so much for joining us here today.
Speaker 4Nice to see you again, Noah.
Getting Started with Attorneys
Speaker 3Let's jump into it. Today's panel is on the topic of relationships. Every engagement is dependent not only upon the expertise and experience of the expert witnesses, but a web of interactions between members of the trial team and the expert. At the core is a relationship between the expert and the attorney. Mr Klain, how do you get off on the right foot with attorneys? How do you get started?
Speaker 2Well, I think it's a great question how do you get started? Well, I think it's a great question how do you get started? You know it often is an email and you respond in the email, perhaps with some little bit of enthusiasm for the case or something that makes a link whatever. I live in Arizona, but most of my clients are back in Maine, where I'm from, so mentioning that sometimes is good, and then in the first meeting we can really bond, trying to make some sort of connection and smile and indicate that you know, you think it's an interesting case and that you think you can help based on what you've learned so far.
Speaker 4But you're very interested in hearing much more about it Dr Fishman, same question, my approach is well to treat each engagement at the highest levels of professionalism, and that is to consult with a lot of information and data right up front and not necessarily to start the clock right away. I do some. I give away some free hours, some research and some consultation two or three hours right up front. I will read the complaint, take a look at the background. Take a look at the motions. Maybe take a glance at the case law. The background take a look at the motions, maybe take a glance at the case law if I don't know a subject matter firsthand and give the attorney an interesting perspective that he or she may not have thought of, as they're sizing up the case and really demonstrate your value added from the very start. Mr.
Speaker 1Favetta. Yeah, you know, mr Klain and Dr Fishman bring up some really good points about developing that rapport, understanding that there might be some aspects of the case that we may not know of for intentional reasons. Maybe the hiring party, whether it's the attorney or the paralegal who reaches out, doesn't want to be up front and give all the information from A to Z. You know, do the conflict checked off off the bat. But essentially there's also, I've found in my decade, plus of doing this is there are different attitudes around it. There are some hiring parties that being the attorney or the firm that are very straight shooters, that you know want to go at this in a very analytical way and, you know, keep the meetings very professional. And there's others that have more of a lighthearted atmosphere to it.
Speaker 1You know I'm based in the New York area and there's some guys that I work with on Staten Island who are very, you know, take the zoom from their home office with with the top button undone on their shirt and they're very casual and we just have a conversation. But there are others that you know have the the formal meeting room with the glass walls and the big conference table, making sure it looks all professional and and such. So I would say there's a more of a what's the what's the feeling? Going into it and kind of starting the conversation on that note are we taking the more straight and narrow professional route or is this more of an introduction in an informal sense, and I think, based on that, there's more of a relationship developing right off the bat that way.
Speaker 3Do you have a preference? Do you prefer it when it's a little bit more loose and casual? I love.
Speaker 1I love this one call that I received. It was a cold call from an expert witness search firm, one of those directories, and the attorney was this prominent local advertising Like. You see his face on the side of the buses and at the benches at the bus stops and he advertised on local TV. And he was this prominent Italian American, very active in the community, saw my last name also of that heritage and we kind of kicked it off on, you know, on that note, and saying after a while, you know, with this, this poor little old lady, she slipped and fell and we need to know the weather.
Speaker 1And, and after 10 minutes of talking we developed this rapport where it turned into you know what such and such assistant, cancel my other appointments for the rest of the day. I want, mike, we're going to go forward with the retainer and work him, work with him on this case. So it really depends on how, I guess, those initial first few moments go, and that was one of my favorite experiences, if you will. There have been others that were a complete 180 and, you know, lasted five minutes and they thought, yeah, really not getting much from you. Bye, but otherwise they've been better rather than worse.
Speaker 3Dr Fishman, does that comport with your experience as well? Have you had a variety of more casual and and, and you know, more professional encounters when you're when you're getting started for a new engagement?
Speaker 4To be honest, I have not. I'm in the finance field. I do a lot of work for Wall Street law firms.
Speaker 3So it tends to be, I assume a little bit more on the professional side.
Speaker 4Gosh. Half the time you don't know if you're being interviewed or if you're being put on the stand yourself, but just hold your own and highest levels of professionalism Keep it buttoned up. In my field of experience, Absolutely.
Recognizing Red Flags in Engagements
Speaker 3Let's talk about red flags. What are some of the things that happen right off the bat that make you think to yourself oh boy, I'm not sure if I'm going to take this engagement. This isn't, this is not for me.
Speaker 4Two things. One, when I am not convinced there is a case there or that, I am not sure whether it's plaintiff or defendant, whether I'm on the winning side. You don't really know who's on the winning side until it grinds through litigation, but you can get a sense pretty early on if you're being asked to defend something that is substantially indefensible, and I shy away from those situations because it puts everyone in an awkward situation.
Speaker 2Yeah, this is a good question. I've been fortunate that I have not today experienced any significant red flags. I assume that what Dr Fishman is talking about when he says the winning side meaning I think perhaps the moral or ethical side, not trying to predict the outcome of the case Exactly, yeah, and so very often my cases are workplace or non-workplace injuries, serious exposures leading to potentially life-threatening illness or, very sadly, many are fatalities. And so, while not always, very often it's I'm working for plaintiff attorneys who are suing and they're always interesting there. Think for a red flag it would be if the potential client attorney were to indicate, in a way that was very clear, some type of disregard for safety and health, not necessarily a disregard for regulations, but a disregard for the safety and health of other people, and so I think it's somewhat lining up with what Dr Fishman was talking about. We're really talking about moral and ethical imperatives. But I'll end with I've been very fortunate that that has not been the case with my clients. I cannot say the same about opposing counsel.
Speaker 3Mr Favetta, have you had any major red flags go up that prevented you from taking an engagement?
Speaker 1So no, I would say, the biggest red flag is when the hiring party comes out of the gate and uses the B word and they start with budget Well, we really don't have a lot of money to pay you and we weren't intending to go down this route with cost. And I'm thinking to myself why are we wasting each other's time? You know, I mean, if it's something as simple as looking up some forensic data, producing a quick report and this is what you need to submit to the judge because you were admonished for not giving an expert report with your motion, fine. But when it comes to, well, I need all of this data and I'm stuck and help me with my case, but we can't really afford to do the big chunk of change for your fee. That's when I think it's a big red flag of I don't think this is going to work out.
Speaker 3Along those lines. This is for all of our panelists. Have any of you had a situation where you have taken an engagement, didn't go so well, there weren't any red flags at the start, but it didn't end up going great and you would not take a future engagement from that same attorney. How do you deal with getting a call from an attorney who wants to use you but you're pretty sure that you don't want them? How do you say no?
Speaker 2Yeah right, I haven't had to say no, I have dealt with. I think you were the opposing counsel in a case of mine or your law firm. Usually it's the law firm and not specifically the person, the actual attorney, and, to be honest, usually that's not an issue I did have you know. So my very first case I was incredibly inexperienced. I was naive to the process, did not really understand it and unfortunately the client attorney did absolutely zero preparation with me, a deposition with a very skilled attorney. So it went cataclysmically badly for my client and he wasn't even there. He gave it to an absolutely junior attorney who literally never said a thing and I think, we're all used to, you know.
Speaker 2You know objection form and function or something along that line, and and so I learned. We learned primarily through our mistakes. We talk about this a lot in safety, you know it's incredible to do so. So the additionally interesting thing is he ended up being opposing counsel in pretty much my last case. So we're talking really bookends to my expert witness career. And I mentioned it to my client attorney, whom I knew from many, many cases, and I said here's what I did, here's what happened, here's what went wrong, et cetera, et cetera. And he said okay, I appreciate you letting me know. I don't think he'll even bring it up. To be honest with you, john, we're talking decades ago. I'm willing to bet he doesn't even remember it at this point, but if he does, don't worry about it. It's something like that at this point taught me a tremendous amount about what it really should be like.
Speaker 3You know, it's interesting that you bring up kind of the team aspect. There's attorneys, but there's also junior attorneys. Sometimes there's paralegals that get involved and a lot of people who haven't been expert witnesses or aren't attorneys don't realize how large trial teams can be, depending on the you know specific action. Obviously, what is the intersection of some of those relationships? In other words, when you first get an engagement, who do you typically talk to? Are you always talking to the attorney? Do you sometimes get a paralegal on the phone? Who is it that you are typically working with at the beginning and then throughout an engagement? I'll start with you, dr Fishman.
Speaker 4Thank you usually it's the senior partner on the case who actually reaches out. Well, actually, the excuse me the associate reaches out for a screening call, and once we get through that, then I go in to a big conference room. The senior partner is there.
Speaker 1Yeah, I would say it varies on the size of the firm. If it's a smaller case, there usually is just the attorney, that whose name is on all the documents. But if it's a larger firm, then there would be the layers of assistants and paralegals working your way up to basically the person who's who's signing all of the motions and working with that attorney directly.
Speaker 3after a few layers of peeling that onion back directly after a few layers of peeling that onion back? Do you ever feel a little bit sidelined by getting somebody who is one of the more junior members and having to kind of work up the ranks to get the real answer to your question? Or do you feel that typically trial teams are pretty well-oiled machines and the correct person is working with you, the expert?
Speaker 1Yeah, I would say that, in terms of working with the right person, in the beginning there's always the hesitancy, there's almost like a delay, if you will, of getting to the right person. So it tends to slow things down a bit. But once that person realizes your value, realizes they should have been working with you all along, all the other initial contacts, they go out the window. Person realizes your value, realizes they should have been working with you all along it kind of all the other initial contacts they go out the window and you're exclusively talking to the attorney on their cell phone on weekends making sure everything is done correctly.
Maintaining Positive Working Relationships
Speaker 3Once we have cleared ourselves of red flags and we've got the right person and we are starting our engagement. How do you maintain a positive attorney expert relationship? What are the factors that make things go smoothly for both the end client and the expert witness?
Speaker 4Meeting deadlines. Be very aware of the court schedule for deadlines, that is, the case management order, as well as the attorney's deadlines, because they want to see everything a week or two in advance to review.
Speaker 1I would say meeting deadlines is important and Dr Fishman nailed that but also, when asked to make your own deadline, to make sure it's reasonable, because sometimes there's so much information out there and you get three other calls from three other firms that needed reports yesterday. It's. There is a fine balance of, you know, keeping your hiring party pleased but also managing your own time and and workload efficiently.
Speaker 3Mr Klain.
Speaker 2Yeah, so I I like what Dr Fishman and Mr Favetta have discussed about deadlines, so I won't replicate that. I would say you know, a lot of my career has been as a consultant, not solely as an expert witness, and so when you're a consultant, you know you're trying your best to meet your client's needs, whatever they are, and you know this is pretty much you know that same dynamic. I've got a client, I'm their consultant. I don't know yet what they need. So trying to figure out what they need but then also trying to provide them with information that I have that they may not have, they may have it but they may not. So that might include for me I deal a lot with the regulations of, say, like OSHA or EPA or others, but there could be other aspects besides regulations that play significant roles, policies and things of that nature, consensus, standards that I would then bring up. The other is I always also provide them with. Here is what I would testify to or do if I were on the other side. So you know trying to do that. What, if you know? What do? I think someone might come back at me just from my perspective. I'm not trying to put myself in the position of the opposing counsel. I'm trying to put myself in the position of the opposing witness, you know, which, of course, I think we probably all have dealt with.
Speaker 2So trying to meet their needs. Also, the last thing I would say is as with, I think, a lot of interactions, but this is just one is trying to make it easy on them, trying not to make what can be a challenging process more difficult. So you know, one of my first questions is how do you operate when it comes to how you want information exchanged? Do you want phone calls? Do you want emails? What do you want in email? And please tell me what you don't want in the email. Tell me when you want something in writing. Until then I'm not putting anything in writing, but give me your specific needs, because I've found they can vary tremendously, even if you're in the same jurisdiction. So I think that's an important aspect for any expert witness to keep in mind.
Speaker 3How proactive do you have to be in making sure that those needs are met? How do you make sure that those lines of communication are open? Starting?
Speaker 1off with these, some of these cases that go on for years. So a few of my cases began before COVID and then during COVID, there was this long pause where nothing moved and now, you know, two, three, four years after COVID, some of these phone calls are starting again, say, hey, remember me from 2018?. Well, this case is finally going to trial six years later. So there are long periods of time where, yeah, they may or not be a phone call, an email, a touch base. One attorney actually started his own firm. He left the firm he began the case with and took it to his new firm with some assistance. So you know, people move, things move along. But I guess touching base at least once a year is advised, given how some of these cases could go on for what seemed like years and years.
Speaker 3Dr Fishman, you brought up scheduling and making sure that people are on deadlines. How do you keep track of your own schedule and timing and making sure that you have sufficient time to do everything you need to do?
Speaker 4I turn work down. Cases can drag on, just like my colleague said, for years, and then they pop up out of the blue and when it's usually a report is in two or three weeks and at that point you just have to clear your schedule and work around the clock six days a week and get it done. And it's just not possible, with the level of detail and the level of technical accuracy required, to work on more than one project at the same time. And even if I have a couple of associates on it, I have to be the primary author and have to be aware of every word and every sentence, every fact and figure, every audit trail, every document referenced in the discovery file. So the only way to handle a schedule is to work on one project at a time and accept there will be long idle periods in between projects, but to devote your time and attention to one client when their case is active.
Speaker 3Mr Favetta, what's your scheduling strategy?
Speaker 1I've received calls from very frequent flyers, those attorneys that look to me for a quick update, something they need right away, and I'll say, yeah, I can get it done for tomorrow, but it's going to be a little extra. You know, I need to put all their work on hold to put you as a priority. And so if the work is right, if it's nothing that requires too much time or too much detail, too much investigation, sure, happy to help and make it work. But there would be a little bit of an extra compensation for that rush.
Communicating Bad News Effectively
Speaker 3One of the things that are difficult are communicating bad news right. Sometimes we put in a lot of work and the answer is not going to be what the attorney and the end client want to hear. But it is our job as expert witnesses to adhere to the neutral truth. So when there is bad news, we have to give bad news. Mr Klain, how do you go about communicating bad news to an attorney in a way that you can still maintain a positive working relationship with them?
Speaker 2Yeah, I think they very much respect and appreciate getting any news early on so that they can make decisions about direction and investing in a certain strategy or path.
Speaker 2And so I try not to consider to what degree might this be good news or bad news for my client. It's just is it relevant, is it information, is it something I've uncovered in my research or whatever, and then alert them to it and have that conversation and say I'm not sure how this affects it, because I acknowledge that's not my role to try to figure that out, but for me this is a serious, whatever implication. It may favor things in this direction, it may not favor things in the other direction. A lot of the times there are several ways of looking at that and what I've learned is I might that and what I've learned is I might think that it's not the best news. And then the client will come back and say, yep, got it, appreciate it, we're not going to go in that direction, we're going to go in this other direction. So they don't necessarily see it as a bad news. They see it as data that can help them take action in a more strategic direction.
Speaker 2So kind of spinning it into neutral news, because yeah, I would say so, yeah, no, it's just, it's not my role to try to figure that out. When I try to figure that out, I've found it's not the most helpful. Now I'm still fully honest and say, from my perspective, this is, you know, not helpful to the case. However, here you know, I'm always then instantly looking for if this is an impact to the case. Here are other things, or here is where the strengths lie, or this the single biggest strength is in this area. Again, strictly from my perspective. I don't know the law, I just know, you know, the stuff that I do Dr Fishman same question.
Speaker 3You know in, obviously in you know the financial sector securities valuation. I imagine that you have a fair amount of what I would call bad news to communicate. How do you tell a client that things are not going to go their way with regard to some information that you've uncovered by writing an expert report or being deposed, or what have you?
Speaker 4We're doing market research or checking comps. Sure, when we dig into the data, that the results are not as we hoped or anticipated and the answer is there is no good or bad news. There's only objective news, which has to be put forth in the most straightforward and forthright manner possible at the earliest possible time so that the attorneys may consider it in the broader context of the case to see if it even makes a difference. I've been in some situations where I wouldn't say I panicked, but I was concerned that we discovered information doing research that would be a setback to the client Okay, but in fact the attorney either knew about it or wasn't concerned at all and had a different perspective where it could either be dismissed away in a line of questioning or overcome by some other information in the file. The point is to put all information in front of the attorneys that may affect the case at the earliest possible time and the most straightforward manner so the attorneys may strategize. It's not the expert's job to strategize on the case.
Speaker 3Mr Favetta, same question.
Concluding Engagements and Follow-Up
Speaker 1Yeah, no, I really think that early is key. We all agree on that, and it's one thing I mentioned in my pitch in the initial interview stages, saying please don't wait to loop me in on everything until you're down the line and finish with discovery, and then you need your expert report, whether it's for the plaintiff or defense. Keep me involved in discovery, share the documents with me, because now is the time, especially when discovery is open, to have all of those uh, you know side and tangents and all the information available so you'll know what's in the opposing expert report, you can get ahead of it and prepare more easily. It sure beats coming up with a strategy later on down the road and having them ultimately spend more money for an expert to find more information and go a little more in-depth when your trial is set and you're just days away from that.
Speaker 3Let's talk a little bit about the ending of an engagement or the ending of a case. Now, I know that a lot of the time the expert witnesses just brought in for a specific portion, they do their job and then they head out onto their next engagement. But these cases, as you stated, might take years to wind up. Once your engagement is over, do you check up on the status of the case? Do you have any kind of post-engagement ritual to make sure that everything went smoothly? See how the case wound up? Check in with the attorney. What do you do at the end of an engagement?
Speaker 1So my process I typically don't ask specifics about the case only because I don't want to. You know, kind of infer that I want to be more involved or I'm looking for more engagement on that case, but I do try and keep that client relationship there. You know, send either a warm wishes or on the holidays card, professionally or even as a meteorologist. We had the big solar eclipse last year and it coincided with the 10th anniversary of my company. So I thought, hey, this would be fun to send out the solar eclipse glasses to all the clients that I've worked with over the last few years. Kind of a fun little gimmicky thing to say, hey, we're still here if you have any more work, to say, hey, we're still here if you have any more work. So, beyond just keeping that relationship open with the maybe annual mailing that were available no, I do not engage with like a follow-up of each individual case I've worked on.
Speaker 2Similar to what Mr Favetta just said. I don't typically reach out beyond. You know you've got your final invoice and in that I just reflect you know very happy to have done this for you, etc. Etc. I leave it. I don't ask about the outcome. I leave it up to them.
Speaker 2If they tell me I certainly welcome that news. Sometimes they will put in writing. Sometimes they'll do a call. Most of the time I don't always hear and I just let it go. I don't track some sort of like wins versus losses or anything like that, and so I stay available. I stay in touch. I leave a lot of that up to the various clients Again, expert witness. Lot of that up to the various clients, again, expert witness. It has been something I've done plenty of, but it's never been the majority of my work, even as a consultant, and so it hasn't been something I've felt the need to follow up on, plus, which it just seems to me that attorneys are very committed to not spending an additional minute on a case or unbillable if they don't have to. So I try not to do anything that might then require a response.
Speaker 2But I have had some very nice follow-ups from one uh attorney. It was, I think, my second case, first time in court, and I think I told this story in in my uh in my um other podcasts with you know, so I won't repeat it, but I made the short version is, I made the jury laugh and that was, according to the client, gold. I didn't know, I was still pretty young and naive about this and, uh, they were thrilled. They got a favorable decision and judgment and all of that and so not only at the end they complimented me, but she put it into the letter. I still have a copy of that letter. And you made the jury laugh, oh my God, you know. So sometimes those sorts of things can be really neat to do.
Speaker 3Yeah, Dr Fishman. How do you wind up a case?
Speaker 4Okay. So my colleagues are correct that it's not really appropriate or it's not done to check in with the attorneys to find out what happened. Nine times out of 10, these cases settle and the terms of the settlement are sealed confidential. Really none of my business, as curious as I am. Who got what in the end and how did my opinion influence it? If the attorney wants to share that with me, they will volunteer that. But my experience has been they're pretty reticent and their obligations to the client, they have no obligations to me. So I respect that professional boundary.
Speaker 4If I'm curious and I confess I keep an active PACER account and I'll go on and I'll check the court filings and see if there's anything put into the record and any post-trial motions or if it's going to appeal and then I'll have a sense what happened in the case and if I may be needed in the future. The satisfaction in the case is by doing the work itself and getting paid and you know if you did a good job. If you hear from the attorney six months, a year, year and a half down the road as they have a different matter then they have you in the back of their mind as somebody they want to work with again. I've been fortunate that's been my experience lately but don't expect a call. I don't expect a call or a letter or congratulations or any sort of that kind of attaboy acknowledgement from an attorney or even finding out the results of the case, because it's just not part of the profession.
Speaker 3Results of the case aside, is it, Dr Fishman, appropriate in your opinion for, let's say, a newer expert witness who is just getting started to just ask briefly about their performance?
Speaker 4Everyone does it in the start because they want to know. They want to know that they've got the. They're in the game. After years and years of doing it. It's just something you get over. You're not looking for the pat on the back. You're looking for the final check to come in and hear from them again for another case down the road.
Speaker 3Understood. Before we wrap up, I'd like to hear any final thoughts on today's panel topic connections and relationships.
Final Thoughts on Relationships
Speaker 1So I think, noah, it's a fine balance between nagging the clients that hired you and also just being there for, as in waiting in the wings for when you are needed Sure, especially regarding when you want to know and follow about the case if everything went through, or just to say, hey, I'm here if you need me for the next time. It was great working with you. Phone is always on and I'm available to take your call.
Speaker 2Yeah, so it's been a great conversation with everyone and I've enjoyed hearing from the others as well and the back and forth that we enjoyed. And with you, noah, I think you know, as we've been discussing here somewhat, relationships matter. Those I got to actually provide the citation matter, um, those I gotta actually provide the citation. Um, I would uh, one of many would be uh, but a great one is dale carnegie, right, um, chapter three of how to make friends and influence people is you can't win an argument which his use of it was more along the lines of relating to people for sales purposes. Obviously, arguments in our context here is very different, but I would also say it holds true.
Speaker 2You know, expert witness, I had to learn this early. If an expert witness goes in thinking they're going to win the argument with opposing counsel, they've probably already lost before they've begun. And you know, I was cautioned by one of my early clients, an attorney who pushed back against opposing counsel, who was clearly trying to do a lot of hey, how you doing, john, nice to meet you, et cetera, et cetera, sort of the. You know, let's make this person so comfortable with me that they just will engage in a conversation and all of that, and I could go down that rabbit trail always, but I won't.
Speaker 2What I'd say instead, along the lines of the importance of relationships, is with one's client. Relationships absolutely matter, and the way to do that is the, for me is the same as it always is, besides the being an effective expert witness, and that includes, as I think we discussed, or I did, you know, try to make it easy on your client. It's doing some of the relationship building things. It's, you know, if they're open to it, having a little bit of a fun banter it's maybe getting into a little bit of the usual personal sort of stuff.
Speaker 2I've gotten to know my client one client in particular, very, very well, and he has gotten to know me and that has translated into a lot more business for me now from him and from people he has referred to me. Obviously, a good part of that also is delivering the goods right, doing what I need to to help educate him, to help him build his case. It's not my case, I'm not building it. I'm providing a service, I'm providing information, insights. Here's where I think the strengths are from my perspective. Here's where there's potential weaknesses, again from my perspective, which is good for him to hear. So how do we do you know, really know all of all of those typical things? But really, seeing it as this is another person. They have a life and, on the one hand, I'm trying to provide a high quality service that helps them accomplish what they wish, which, of course, is when the case, and it may, they may be plaintiff, they may be defense. I'm very agnostic about that.
Speaker 3Sure.
Speaker 2But it's also here's a person, and how do we relate and how do I do this? I was in business for myself for 13 years. The economy in 2011 finally caught up to us, but during that time period, I absolutely you know. If you were to say, john, what's the one thing that allowed you to sustain a good business for that time period till you know, the Great Recession beat you up and that was multifactorial on the downside, but on the upside, it was absolutely relationship building, relationship marketing, which I learned from my dad, who was an on the road, over the road shoe salesman, and I saw him in action.
Speaker 2And I guess the last thing I would say and this is always a good way to have final thoughts Noah, would be you, and I talked about it in my original interview and your podcast was the powers of storytelling to do so many things, including relationship building, including being persuasive, including embedding your data, including. You know me, I study this, I practice it. I could go on and on and on, but the research is there, the practice and the human brain is absolutely wired for story. It is not wired for dry, dull data and statistics.
Speaker 3And that will conclude our show. I'd like to thank our esteemed panelists, dr Fishman, mr Klain and Mr Favetta, for joining me here today, and I'd like to thank, as always, our listeners for joining us for another episode of Engaging Experts Cheers.
Speaker 2Thank you for listening to our podcast Engaging Experts. Our show notes are available on our website roundtablegroupcom.