Engaging with Risk Management Expert, Mike Evans

What happens when decades of Wall Street experience meets the witness stand? Mike Evans takes us behind the scenes of financial expert witnessing in this revealing conversation about bridging the gap between complex regulatory requirements and practical implementation.

Drawing from his extensive career at Goldman Sachs, Lehman Brothers, and BNP Paribas, Evans explains how he transitioned from compliance officer to expert witness. His journey offers insight navigating the delicate balance between technical expertise and effective communication. "The compliance angle is how these things get implemented," Evans explains, highlighting the unique value he brings to legal proceedings where understanding the gap between written policies and actual practice often determines case outcomes.

The conversation delves into practical aspects of expert witnessing that professionals rarely discuss openly. From managing relationships with attorneys and negotiating clear engagement terms to preparing for testimony and maintaining composure under pressure, Evans shares candid insights gained through real-world experience. His approach to testimony—making eye contact with finders of fact, speaking clearly, and maintaining unwavering integrity—provides a roadmap for aspiring expert witnesses.

Perhaps most valuable is Evans' philosophy toward expert work, encapsulated in his father's advice: "Say what you mean and mean what you say." This commitment to consistency and truthfulness allows him to navigate complex cases with multiple attorneys while maintaining credibility. For attorneys working with financial experts and for professionals considering expert witnessing, this episode offers rare insights into effective collaboration at the intersection of finance and law. 

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Transcript

Introduction to Mike Evans

Noah Bolmer 0:01

This episode is brought to you by Roundtable Group, the experts on experts. We've been connecting attorneys with experts for over 30 years. Find out more at roundtablegroupcom. Welcome to Engaging Experts. I'm your host, noah Balmer, and today's guest is Mike Evans, founder of Vega Compliance Consulting, a risk management firm specializing in the financial services sector. Additionally, he has extensive experience in capital investments, hedge funds and more. He's a sought-after expert witness. Mr Evans holds an MBA from Stern. Mr Evans, thank you so much for joining me here today on Engaging Experts. Thanks, noah, thanks for having me. Of course, let's jump into it. You've had a decades-long career in financial services, but how did you first become involved in expert witnessing?

Mike Evans 0:53

I kind of fell into expert witnessing through an old colleague at Lehman Brothers. This was long after Lehman Brothers went defunct. I had met up with somebody who was doing some expert work on Wall Street topics not compliance and mismanagement in particular, like I am but he thought with the decades of experience, with all my previous time at Goldman Sachs and Lehman Brothers and then at BNP afterwards, that people could really utilize my knowledge and experience.

Noah Bolmer 1:24

Were you familiar with expert work at the time at all?

Mike Evans 1:27

Not really no. I had helped with some fact witnesses and I had helped prep people in my role as compliance chief compliance officer and compliance subject matter expert in certain trading areas. So I'd help people prepare for trial, but I'd never done any expert witness myself and litigation was, you know, kind of two steps away from my general practice.

Noah Bolmer 1:53

The individual that helped you get started? Did they show you the ropes at all, tell you what to expect, or did you kind of just hit the ground running, get a call from a potential engagement and just have to answer a bunch of questions?

Mike Evans 2:05

A little bit of each. I had a couple of books to read to kind of freshen up on it, and he pointed me to a few websites. So I did my own research on that and tried to work at learning the industry from that angle. The subject matter came easy to me, but the process and the networking of litigators versus classic compliance advisors was a little bit different. How long ago would you say that that was time? And the time that I started expert witnessing, I caught the entrepreneurial bug and started my own hedge fund. So that gives me another kind of an interesting angle.

Mike Evans 2:57

It never really took off. There was this thing called COVID and then there was an invasion in the Ukraine and there were a couple of things that made it a little difficult to generate alpha in the hedge fund space. So I did it for a couple of years. I managed a few million dollars from friends and family, but I was not able to get to the assets under management to really make it a you know kind of a billion dollar venture that of course every hedge fund manager wants to be. So after two years I went back to my, you know, back to my knitting, uh, as a compliance expert. But I held onto the entrepreneurial bug and did some advisory and consulting work, starting Vega and then the expert. Uh was kind of the next logical step, the expert witness work.

Noah Bolmer 3:39

How do you manage your schedule with so many different things going on, spinning lots of plates? If you get a potential engagement, everything seems fine. How do you ensure that you have enough time to give it your all?

Mike Evans 3:51

Well, you know I try and be honest with everybody as much as possible. Sometimes you just don't know and you do get jammed and you know you have a couple late nights and entrepreneurs are used to working late and on weekends and you know juggling or spinning plates as you say. You know it's just part of being an entrepreneur, so I try and manage it as best I can. I always try and leave a little bit of time for, you know, family and friends and relaxation. But if that doesn't happen for a month or two, you know, because you're back to back, so be it.

Beginning an Expert Witness Career

Noah Bolmer 4:21

Naturally, let's talk a little bit about those phone calls. So what are the sorts of questions that you're asked and what are the sorts of questions that you like to ask to kind of ensure that it's going to be a good engagement that makes sense for both parties?

Mike Evans 4:36

Well, you know, I like to make sure that I am the right expert in these things. It's pretty particular. I'm not a CPA or that and I don't even have my JD. So I've got a master's in business and that's really my focal point is, you know, it was the business in this case banks, hedge funds, broker dealers, people who are getting sued or potentially suing their counterparties Are they in need of someone who understands from the inside how does governance procedures work?

Mike Evans 5:15

How do controls get implemented? A lot of what I see from the attorney side is you know, I know the regulations, I know how their short sale rule works, I know how people are supposed to do due diligence on their clients and stuff, and I respect that. From a regulatory standpoint, I agree, the lawyers have training and knowledge and they can read the law themselves. The compliance angle, which is a little bit more interesting and I think is valuable to them, is how do these things get implemented? You know, generally a lawyer will have a case where you know the policy says that you have to do X, y and Z within the organization and they're saying well, that couldn't have been done, or else my client would have would not have been harmed. So I can step in and say I'm yeah, those policies and procedures were market standard, that's true, but they weren't implemented properly.

Mike Evans 6:08

Right, the wrong person was doing the wrong thing at the wrong time, or this committee didn't meet and actually discuss what they should have done, and so from a compliance standpoint, it's important to get those things right. And if they're not right, you can compare the policies and procedures which generally are received as part of discovery versus the email trail that says, oh yeah, this person just skipped those two steps and moved on. And then you find out, you know that's a problem. So there there's the. You know, the helpfulness for somebody who's been in compliance is, you know, grown up in that space for 25 years, 30 years almost, and 30 years almost, and have all the licenses, et cetera, et cetera. But really the experience working your way up into the point of being the chief compliance officer and having these teams to manage and do all of that, I think it makes me a valuable source resource.

Noah Bolmer 7:05

Absolutely. Have you ever been brought in as a consultant and had that job kind of shift towards an expert witness or towards a potential expert witness that got brought in for some information, to kind of educate the attorney a little bit, but have them say you know, this might actually go to court. Can I also put you on the stand? You ever had one of those?

Mike Evans 7:25

So I'm actually in the middle of that right now. Again, you know it's only been two years, but I have to say one of my first cases that's been kind of dragging on. There's been a motion to dismiss and you know it's been quiet for a little while. I was simply brought on as a consultant and my engagement letter said you know, we just need you as a consultant. No notion yet of a testifying expert or writing an expert report at this point. But it's certainly. You know. I kind of did my due diligence on all of the items that were part of their discovery and et cetera. Now there's a point where they're saying well, you know, would you be willing to say that on the stand? You know, and of course you know I, you know everything I've told them is honest and forthright and if I didn't believe it a hundred percent I wouldn't be telling my client that in the first place. So of course I can tell a jury and a judge the same thing.

Noah Bolmer 8:18

Does that complicate your engagement letter at all? Do you ever have to have like certain breakouts Like these are my rates, uh, this is my retainer, but on the other hand, if it goes to trial, we have to do these other things, you have to renegotiate, or is everything kind of encapsulated in your initial agreement?

Mike Evans 8:36

It's not necessarily encapsulated, but it's more of an add-on than a full renegotiation. My rates are pretty standard. So whether I'm just doing the research, reading the material, doing my own independent fact gathering of citations and things, that's one of the things. I think that that could go wrong and I would advise other people who are just stepping into it.

Managing Multiple Professional Roles

Mike Evans 9:11

One of some of my first experience was we didn't have a full budget, at least I didn't understand what it was. The agent who had presented me to, to the clients or to the law firms, didn't have that open channel of communication, I don't think. And once my third or fourth bill went through and you know there was a little bit in arrears and they kind of had a little sticker shock after a while they, you know, they said, okay, now let's start, let's tell you that the budget was really X, not Y and we need to scale things back, and that was a little bit of an eye-opener for me. So I'm going to try and not let that happen and find out early on when the engagement is, when we engage. Is this a $50,000 budget or a $500,000 budget? Like, where are we here?

Noah Bolmer 9:59

So, so you think, as a as an expert witness, you should probably have a proactive approach in terms of making sure that there's a meeting of the minds vis-a-vis the engagement letter before you begin work.

Mike Evans 10:13

Sure, and I try, and you know I adopt different aspects of the engagement letter. You know every engagement Because I'll learn something. You know the lawyer will come back and say do you really need this? And I would say no, so let's change it to this and if that's more palatable to lawyers in general, I'll make that part of my draft for the next time. So it's a definitely a living document, but it's important to have that document, I think. Right, I know some people just do it. You know, maybe they've been doing it so long. They already have a good relationship with their attorneys and that's great. Um, but I like things. Maybe because I'm the compliance guy, I like things in black and white. It's got to be in writing or it doesn't exist as far as the regulator is concerned. So that's been my mantra as well.

Noah Bolmer 10:54

Any other red flags for those initial phone calls or even down the?

Mike Evans 10:57

road I've spoken with are professional and above board. Again, you know, if you're not the expert, you know you can help find one for people and sometimes you can monetize that. But oftentimes it's just goodwill and I think, building that goodwill, you know people pay it forward and that's a positive for your karma and for your career, so I'm happy to do that as well.

Noah Bolmer 11:25

So you've been doing this for a couple of years. Have you found yourself on the stand yet?

Mike Evans 11:29

So I have been in front of a FINRA arbitration panel and that was kind of interesting. People were saying you know you better watch out for the deposition, you better watch out for the cross-examination. I really kind of felt invigorated to be there. You know I like the intellectual tete-a-tete, you know. I think you know when you can spar through ideas. You know I think they recognize I was the expert in this space. But you know the opposing lawyer is going to challenge you on certain things and you know you can set the record yourself.

Mike Evans 12:04

Like it's certainly not for the timid or faint of heart, but I do enjoy it. Like that was the best part, all the analysis that went into it. Obviously you know it was helpful and it pays off, um, but I'm not the ivory tower type of guy who just wants to. You know, work on paper I I enjoy the both, the camaraderie, um, but you know also the engagement of, uh, of the engagement of a dialogue that you know gets through to the Socratic method and everything else that you do to try and find the truth in between the facts. So, yeah, so I have been and I'm looking forward to the next one as well. Already.

Noah Bolmer 12:43

Do you have any pre-trial ritual or routine that gets you ready, gets you in the right headspace to go in there? I have people who drink a ton of coffee, or they fast or they do yoga or you know whatever it is. Do you have any kind of a routine that gets you ready to go?

Mike Evans 13:00

Yeah, I definitely have two cups of coffee but not three. So, because you don't want to break up the momentum once you're out there and need a break, you know a nature break, but I do like my caffeine, so so I need a little bit of that. My other, you know my other tips for for people just starting out, is to make sure you know you have a decent suit. I always wear a white shirt cause I never want to, you know, throw things off and just look plain, simple and professional.

Noah Bolmer 13:30

That's important Speaking of looking plain, simple and professional. Tell me about demeanor a little bit. How do you use not only your expertise but your body language, the manner in which you speak? How do you use these sorts of intangibles to better connect with whoever the fact finder is in the case?

The Compliance Expert Perspective

Mike Evans 13:50

Yeah, yeah, I think what. What helps at least helps me is having teenage kids. So I've got three teenage well, now they're beyond teenage kids, but you know, one is still a teenager and uh, and having uh to teach them how to communicate clearly and effectively and then practice what you preach is the same thing that you have to do when you're speaking professionally, when you're in the chair and everybody's focused on you. You want to enunciate, you want to speak slowly? Well, you would know, because you're a podcast or a radio host type of guy. So it's the same thing. You can't slur your words, you can't use too many, you know anachronisms and colloquial language.

Mike Evans 14:38

You should just again speak professionally, speak clearly, the same thing that you would tell your kids to do make eye contact. And you're making eye contact with the finders of fact. You don't necessarily want to face the attorneys, because the attorneys aren't who you're trying to help here. You're trying to help the finders of fact understand, and that eye contact is important In addition to speaking slowly, clearly, take a breath, make sure they understand what you've just said.

Noah Bolmer 15:07

if they don't rephrase it a couple of things. So when you talk about making eye contact, have you done any telepresence sorts of depositions or or actions of any kind where you know where is eye contact? Do I look at the camera? Do I look at the window, what I doing? So how does technology kind of change things?

Mike Evans 15:28

Yeah, the most telepresence or Zoom, slash Teams, slash Google Meets, whatever your modus is. In my experience it has been the speaking with the attorneys who are engaging with you. So in the process of soliciting, you know, new clients is probably more. I do the other stuff face to face as much as possible. So on the technology side, you know, always make sure that you got a good bandwidth connection, always test your, your connections before you know, 10 or 15 minutes before you go live. I often now tell my I don't want to say her name smart speaker that you know, set an alarm 15 minutes early, 20 minutes early, so that you can go in and test those things and make sure you don't have problems going, going, you know, during the important times to speak, because there's always a glitch here or there, and then have a backup plan right. So everybody's got their laptop but you've also got your phone. As long as you've got a good signal on both you'll have a backup plan, because I've had to resort to the backup plan a number of times.

Noah Bolmer 16:38

So we were talking about an arbitration that you're in the process of doing and that one's closed. Yeah, one of one is closed and a couple are live coming up. So how is an arbitration or any alternative dispute resolution type different for an expert witness compared to a formal trial? Are these types of arbitrations kind of quasi-judicial, the sort of more formal arbitrations, or is this a more casual sort of an arbitration? Because I know that there's some that operate almost exactly like trials there might be depositions, there might be reports, there might be discovery, and then sometimes it's just a person that a couple people talk to and he's like nah, you're right, the other one's wrong.

Mike Evans 17:20

I would say it's somewhere in between. It certainly wasn't a mediation or that casual. Last one person. These were three people.

First Arbitration Experience

Mike Evans 17:29

In FINRA you always have a majority, so at least two non-industry arbitrators. This case there were three independent arbitrators. So, although we were arguing over a broker-dealer and did they move money properly or improperly to the arm of the plaintiff, these People never worked at a broker dealer and aren't licensed with their Series 7, so they don't necessarily know the FINRA regulations that were potentially violated in the process here. But you know, they were smart, professional people. There was an accountant, a full-on CPA, there was two lawyers. So they knew the law and the process, but they didn't have to apply it the same way, obviously, that a courtroom would have applied the process. So they're quasi-judges, you could say.

Mike Evans 18:22

But I think it's a much more casual back and forth. No deposition was required. An expert report wasn't required. I had written one and even had some material on top, some material on top of that. You know, demonstratives to help out. But, um, it wasn't required and um, although there was, you know they had checked my qualifications, we had discussion. You know there's no, there was no Daubert challenge or motions in the minute or anything like that. So um so, so, uh, you know, I think it was kind of a mix between the two. It's definitely more casual than a court case, but no less serious, and the outcome, you know, was millions of dollars for the plaintiff and the defendant. So it's important, clearly, but maybe not as regimented, I would say.

Noah Bolmer 19:13

Sure, absolutely. It's really interesting because there's so many permutations of types of arbitrations and court cases, for that matter, that range that have a fairly broad range of formality. Have you worked in other venues you know, either other states or perhaps at the federal level, or any criminal cases, anything like that? Have you worked in any different venues that have different rules that felt a little bit different to you as an expert witness?

Mike Evans 19:41

I haven't appeared yet in those courts. I have two state cases and two federal cases, one in the Southern District of New York, one out in Dallas, texas. So again, I haven't appeared yet. And the process I got to say again, as a fairly new expert, I rely on the attorneys to kind of walk me through some of this process. You're not alone. The expert has to remember that they're independent and you know they have to, you know, give the truth and they're not advocating, you know, for either side but they are being paid by and working for one side. And that relationship that gets built with the law firm I think is important and those lawyers can certainly help you out.

Mike Evans 20:28

If you're saying you know you've got to write your citations this way and footnotes here don't footnote that, and blah, blah, I think you know that shouldn't trip you up, it shouldn't, uh, or slow you down. You know I think you write the best you can and you can rely on those attorneys to really help you kind of polish your end product. Obviously they're not writing it for you or they shouldn't be, but, um, but you can rely on them for that process, you know. And where you're saying kind of, what's the difference between a state court in California and a federal court in New York. Ok, I don't know, I haven't experienced those things yet. You tell me and then I'm sure it'll all work out.

Noah Bolmer 21:10

Do you feel that in general, attorneys have been pretty good about prepping you on the things that you don't know? That will be important that can be.

Mike Evans 21:20

it's funny that you asked that, because that can be hot or cold. My experience so far has been very good, but I can feel like, okay, you know we're really rushed now at the end, so it's a slow grind, maybe months of work. You know we're really rushed now at the end, so it's it's a slow grind, maybe months of work. You know, getting the report that you want. You know just the way you want it, addressing it, using the right terminology, etc. Etc.

Mike Evans 21:46

And then you then you're kind of quiet, you're waiting for them to come back. And then, okay, you know we've got two weeks, let's get it all done. You know, let's let's make sure that we're solid on absolutely everything. Um, and it feels a little bit tight at that point, um, so you know, obviously the the slower the pace, the better. You know you can with questions back and forth and things like that, um, but it can happen another way. So you have to be prepared for that too. And I think, working on wall street again, being that expert in compliance, where you're always kind of facing off to the business, they're challenging you and you have to challenge them back and you have to justify all of your actions and um, and I think that has well prepared me for this part of my career.

Preparation and Professionalism

Noah Bolmer 22:29

Yeah, as somebody who is in a very dynamic uh trade. How do you stay on top of it? In other words, how are you not only an expert, but how do you remain an expert in your field in such a dynamic field?

Mike Evans 22:47

Luckily, like you know, wall Street topics are always on the news, right? So you're never going to miss something like that. I really I try and read, like I ignore television as much as possible and I try and read the Wall Street Journal every day or every other day. I also filter things, you know, I make sure that you know. My Google News, you know, shoots me something that's only you know, only the relevant things. You know, make sure the cases that I'm interested in you know if there's an update to them. You know court listener or somebody's going to send me an update so that I stay on top of those particular cases.

Mike Evans 23:26

But the news stories of the day and I've been involved in some of them have you know. You know, have always appeared on in either my inbox or I'm doing it as part of my general reading, because I enjoy reading the Wall Street Journal. I think it's a great publication. I'll read Reuters and Bloomberg as well, but I definitely try and stay away from MSNBC and Fox and all the other talking heads on TV, because I think that's really you don't get a lot of bag for your buck time-wise and before you know it, an hour out of your day is gone and you really haven't learned anything. So I suggest people read but I'm old, so who knows or listen to good podcasts. Maybe you know there's a couple of good podcasts out there Excellent podcasts like Engaging Experts.

Noah Bolmer 24:13

Let's move to the general for a moment. How do expert witnesses get off on the right foot on a new engagement? What are the general properties? What makes up a good engagement in general?

Mike Evans 24:21

Being prepared right. So, as an expert, before you even have that first meeting with somebody, have you read the complaint letter? Have you read the response to the complaint? Has? This was a you know, as has been in the news. Maybe you want to read some news analysis if it's a hot topic.

Mike Evans 24:40

If you know the parties, you know I'm dealing with sometimes former employers Goldman Sachs, morgan Stanley not Lehman Brothers anymore, that's pretty much a done deal. But some of the other you know, people that I know are now employees. So Lehman Brothers, for example, now is a diaspora. So there are people at every bank and every shop on Wall Street that I can talk to and say you know, are you familiar with this situation? Maybe it's not that particular case, I hope it's. You know, sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. I hope it's. You know, sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. But you can prepare well by utilizing you know if you're really an expert, you know you should have read the complaint and the response. But you also have a perspective that you're bringing to it that they don't have and nobody else in the case has. So that's why you're being engaged to bring that special perspective and expertise. So you should be prepared. Doing that preparation, I think, is really important, and understanding it from multiple perspectives, multiple angles.

Staying Current in Financial Services

Noah Bolmer 26:00

As somebody who's been in this business for quite a long time, are you ever concerned that you've said something at one point and you have new information, or you've simply changed your mind and you get impeached on the stand on something that you've said in the past that you don't necessarily still agree with or was perhaps taken out of context? How do you deal with those sorts of situations?

Mike Evans 26:23

I would hope that you know. Nothing I ever do is contradictory, my father used to tell me when I was a little kid. He said say what you mean and mean what you say. So you know, as long as you act with integrity at every step, that's fine. And if a lawyer is pushing you to say something that you're really not confident in, then don't say it. You know you can. They want to end the assignment fine, they end the assignment. You know if it's a deal breaker, it's a deal breaker. But you know you've always got your integrity to carry with you and if you violate that then you're not going to last long with you, and if you violate that, then you're not going to last long.

Noah Bolmer 26:59

Have you found yourself on larger trial teams, in other words, with other expert witnesses, perhaps paralegals, assistants? Have you interacted with a full team, either in an arbitration or in a trial? And so what are those interactions like? To what extent do you collaborate with the various parties of a trial?

Mike Evans 27:15

Yeah, it's interesting because there were a couple of times when I would walk into a room and say, okay, here's the team and it, you know it was five attorneys only two of them I had actually worked with up until that point and I didn't know who was senior to who. Right, are you a partner? Are you a senior associate? Are you? Are you the main partner of this firm or are you? But yeah, working with four or five attorneys is is not uncommon. I think it's just something that that you're going to get used to.

Mike Evans 27:41

The dynamics can be interesting and if you say what you mean to me, what you say, like I said a minute ago, then then you never have to kind of back up and say, oh, did I tell them X, you know, or did I tell them why? Well, you told them the truth six months ago. So as long as you still believe that that's the truth, then you'll be consistent. So I think that's uh again, if you're, if you keep your integrity and you and you stick with the truth, um, you don't have to worry too much about what did I say to this person versus what did I say to this person, because you're telling the same story and your consistency remains. So you might not have told them something because you just didn't have that discussion yet, but when you tell it to them, it's going to be consistent with what you've said to everybody else. So I think that's really important.

Noah Bolmer 28:32

Absolutely. Before we wrap up, do you have any final advice for expert witnesses and, in particular, newer expert witnesses or even attorneys who are working with them?

Mike Evans 29:22

no-transcript.

Noah Bolmer 29:27

Evans, thank you so much for joining me here today. Well, thanks.

Mike Evans 29:31

Noah, this has been a lot of fun.

Noah Bolmer 29:32

I appreciate it, and thank you, as always, to our listeners for joining us for another edition of Engaging Experts Cheers. Thank you for listening to our podcast, Engaging Experts. Our show notes are available on our website, roundtablegroupcom.