Engaging Experts

Engaging with Attorney and Publisher, Carl Taylor

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What truly separates effective expert witnesses from those who merely possess technical knowledge? According to family law attorney Carl Taylor, it comes down to the expert's ability to translate complex information into compelling narratives that connect with judges and juries.

In this wide-ranging conversation, Taylor draws on over 15 years of courtroom experience to share what attorneys really look for when selecting expert witnesses. Beyond credentials and expertise, he emphasizes the importance of what he calls "authority assets" - the publications, speaking engagements, and thought leadership that establish an expert's ongoing relevance. Perhaps most surprising is his insight that vulnerability between attorneys and experts often leads to stronger working relationships and more effective testimony.

Whether you're an attorney who works with expert witnesses, an expert looking to improve your effectiveness, or simply curious about how complex information gets translated in our legal system, this episode offers valuable insights into a critical but often overlooked professional relationship. Taylor's unique perspective as both a family law attorney and a publisher helping experts create authority assets makes this a must-listen conversation for anyone interested in the intersection of expertise and persuasion.

Introduction to Carl Taylor

Intro

This episode is brought to you by Roundtable Group the experts on experts. We've been connecting attorneys with experts for over 30 years. Find out more at roundtablegroupcom.

Noah Bolmer

Welcome to Engaging Experts. I'm your host, Noah Balmer, and today I'm excited to welcome Carl Taylor to the show Now, . Taylor is a family law attorney, published author and podcaster. His current project is books for experts in attorney experts and professionals publisher that's focused on helping experts and attorneys create authority assets. Mr holds a JD from Rutgers. Mr . Taylor, welcome to Engaging Engaging Experts Thank you so much for joining me here today,.. Thank

Noah Bolmer

Thank you so much for joining me here today,. Thank you so much for having me, Of course, so let's jump into it. You've spent over 15 years working as a family law attorney and you are now moving into book publication. Tell me a little bit about how you got your start and where you're headed.

Carl Taylor

Sure. So throughout my career in the law, I've mostly done family law, but I've also served as deputy county counsel for a county in New Jersey. I've been municipal prosecutor for a number of towns like 10 or 12. And I've also, you know, worked in-house at a large insurance defense firm. So experts is, you know, the use of experts is near and dear to my heart and I'm really excited to have this conversation.

Carl Taylor

But I'm also an English major at heart and it was so, and during the pandemic I I had the misfortune to publish a few articles I'm sorry, short stories in, you know, like the magazine of fantasy and science fiction, like, you know, pro sales like, but you know, like kind of like in in speculative fiction.

Carl Taylor

So, but it really opened up to me this idea of like the creative part of me, because I wrote this book, happily, even after the guy did divorce New Jersey in 2017, now in its third edition and what that meant was I was able to parlay that book into really getting better referrals, increasing my prestige even amongst the gray hairs in my profession and, you know, essentially helping to to create greater access to justice. So my idea now is to kind of combine some of that desire or ability to be creative, to help other lawyers to kind of get out from some of the what I call marketing sludge that kind of impacts our profession. The recycled blog posts, you know, the unoriginal SEO that doesn't really frame us as people, because I really think, as attorneys and experts, narrative is the key.

Noah Bolmer

When you were working as an attorney, did you do a significant amount of work with expert witnesses.

Carl Taylor

Yeah, I mean. So I'm not going to sit here and say every single case I had was with experts, because I've mostly worked at small firms and on my own in family law, right, and my clients it's like get an expert and they can't always afford it, right, but it's like I'm on the record here You're going to have experts. But yeah, I mean, I've worked with forensic accountants, I've worked with the custody, you know best interest evaluators and employability experts. It definitely comes up. And when I worked for the county and in-house with one of the big insurance companies, there was a constant use of experts for larger litigation files, which I know is really more what Roundtable Group is involved with in terms of helping people find those assets. So, yeah, it's definitely been a part of my practice throughout the last nearly 16 years, although I'm not going to sit here and say every single case had an expert, because that would be disingenuous. Sure, of course.

Noah Bolmer

And I want you to tell us like it is. So you mentioned Roundtable Group. Do you find expert witness, referral agencies in general to be a valuable asset for attorneys?

Carl Taylor

Yeah, I mean absolutely, especially if you don't have something in your network, if there's something a little outside of the norm, like for your practice area or your level of expertise. I mean, that's the starting point. But I think if you go to Roundtable or something like you know somebody who is more of a consultant as well as a directory, then you can kind of feel more trust. More trusting, but trust. But verify is as a lawyer you're out on the limb with you know more trusting but trust, but verify is as a lawyer you're out in the, you're out on the limb with you know the expert. The client's not going to say, oh, you hire, you went through an agency. Like they're going to say, like you hired this expert and now they're not doing what they need to do.

Carl Taylor

So you know, you start with a, you know a place like round table and then, and then you kind of look to their what I call authority assets, which I'm now trying to help other people build, which is like how often do you speak, do you have books of your own, do you have articles and do you appear on podcasts? Like all that kind of stuff kind of adds to credibility. So you know, yeah, it's you go to your network first, if you can. And the number one thing I always look to is, like you know, the saying is like if you can't beat them, join them.

Carl Taylor

My theory is if you can't beat them, hire them. So if I meet a young associate and they like they kind of have their way with me in court on something and they surprised me, I'm like, well, I really want to hire that person as an associate. Or if I have an expert who like really, like you know, really gets over on me in court, I'm like I want to hire that expert for my next case. So that's the other thing I do too, along with directories.

Noah Bolmer

Let's talk about those initial phone calls. It's a two-way vetting process. They're vetting you and you're vetting them. What are the things that you specifically, but the attorneys generally, are looking for in a good expert witness?

Carl Taylor

Yeah. So I mean, I think, first off, availability, right. It's like a star athlete I'm here in Philadelphia, so you know, we, we have our history like Carson Wentz was, you know, a really good quarterback, right, but he couldn't stay healthy on the field. So to me it's like are you going to be available? And I think one of the problems is especially in local networks, is you kind of have the same. It's like the Pareto principle, right, like 20% of the experts get 80% of the work, and then it's really hard to then calendar them. You become almost like a project manager and the judge doesn't care if your expert's really busy, right? So I think that's the key is, I want to look for availability.

Carl Taylor

I also want to look for someone who you know what I call often authority, right, somebody who has expertise. That's the that's gets you in the door. That's to qualify, you know, as an expert. You need expertise, right. But you also need to have narrative, the ability to take your data and all the kind of cold, harsh truths of the case and actually spin it to a judge or jury in an understandable way. And also authenticity. Do they seem like they believe what they're saying? Can they present it as somebody. It's like having a good dinner guest. An expert needs to be somebody that you. There's a sense of humor, there's a personality there. It's not just data and numbers, because that's going to not translate to the jury the way it needs to.

What Makes A Compelling Expert Witness

Noah Bolmer

Let's, let's unpack that a little bit. How can an expert witness be a good proverbial dinner guest? How do they perform in front of a jury in a way that they're able to get their point across but also connect with the finder of fact?

Carl Taylor

yeah, yeah, absolutely no. That's a great question. I mean, I think what I say is, although some experts are translators, right, every expert needs to be a translator in that and the translator of their sometimes archaic knowledge that they possess. You know, the thing about a good expert is that it can take something that, like Einstein, could conceive and cut it down to where, like, a smart fifth grade child could understand it. Right, because if you can't do that, then you're gonna lose. You're gonna lose, honestly, attorneys, you know, um, you're gonna lose even judges sometimes and you're definitely gonna lose the jury, you know, half the time.

Carl Taylor

So you have to be able to take really complex ideas and understand them and and and be able to engage, um, through personality, through, through perception, right, and through sort of taking the story of the numbers and saying, like, ordinarily it might be like this, but like when I used to work at, uh, the insurance defense firm, I didn't want a doctor to say you have scapular winging, because everyone in the jury is like, oh, the scapular winging, what the heck is that? Right, it's like, well, it's kind of like a winged type thing in your shoulder blade, you know. So you know, or cervical spine, like you know, before I went into insurance defense law, I didn't know which part of your back was the lumbar or the cervical spine. I had no idea. You know, so you know every and the attorneys can help you with this, right, they can help you kind of decode.

Carl Taylor

Because for me it's like I'm not saying that, I'm that, I'm einstein, right, like I, I have my, my, uh, limitations of knowledge, especially in science or medicine. Like, oh gosh, um, but if I don't understand it, I'm like I think enough of myself to think if I don't understand what this expert's telling me while we're prepping, I don't think the, the jury's gonna understand. I have to say to the expert, like, like this is where ego kind of gets set aside in name of of performance, right, um, and most experts get it.

Noah Bolmer

You know, you were talking about qualifications and credibility. What are the most important things that experts need to be doing to maintain their credibility for engagements? Is it important that their academics? Do they need to be well published? Do they need to be members of various organizations? What are the most important things that experts should be doing to convey not only expertise but currency in their expertise?

Carl Taylor

Yeah, I mean, I think for me the red flag that I look for is like does somebody have a great CV? But it's not, it's not recent. You know, like, if somebody like really put in the work at a certain point in time and really created a great reputation and CV and all the credentials, but it's kind of slowed down, I want somebody on the cutting edge, right. I want somebody who's going to teach me something I don't even know and point out to not just what's strong about my case, but, more importantly this is because I'm a pessimist at heart always tell me what's bad, that I'm missing, right. Tell me where there's a logic gap or where there might be something that I'm not fully comprehending about this case, because then it helps me with settlement, right, if I need to settle the case, or it helps me in terms of how to defend the case at trial. So for me it's like, yeah, I want to see people who have authority, assets I keep going back to that but, like people who publish, people who you know, you don't have to be a professor, right, but you have to be somebody who's engaged in your specific area of expertise, and you do that through speaking, you do that through writing and through thought leadership.

Building Authority and Credibility

Carl Taylor

But yeah, if you're, if you're somebody who has slowed down in that regard, then that makes and it's like being a solo attorney right, I need to do marketing to get clients in. Then I get busy, then I do less marketing because I'm doing client work, so I get how experts get into this. It's like, well, now I'm always doing the expert stuff, but it's like to me I'm going to attack you on cross-examination if you're not updated. And also there's a, there's a curve in any profession, right, the the longer you're at something, sometimes, the more effective you think you are, but you're actually falling behind. So that's true in medicine, that's true in law. So if you're not keeping up to date with the proper memberships and credentials, then I think that that's a good way to try. And to me, I don't want to retain somebody who was really great 10 years ago. I need somebody who's great tomorrow.

Noah Bolmer

Is that something that you pre-vet them for, or is that something you discovered during the initial phone call?

Carl Taylor

It's definitely both. I mean, it's like any meeting, it's like preparing for a podcast. Even the more homework you can do, hopefully, the more you can kind of come across what you're doing and understand the terrain right. Law to me is a battle of terrain. Um, you know it's, it's not just the facts. If it was just the facts, you wouldn't need juries and and you wouldn't need.

Carl Taylor

You know, it comes down to credibility, right. So to me, I'm vetting them just like they're vetting me, like is there credibility here? Is there reliability? And yeah, I'm going to try and do my best to sort of. If I see some gaps in in, I'm going to give them a chance to say like, hey, is there anything coming up that's not on here yet, or have you not updated it recently? Cause sometimes they just forget to update their resume or their CV. But they're like, oh, yeah, like last, last time I really published, you know something? Uh, you know on, um, uh, osteoporosis was 1997. I'm like, okay, you know, I watched the movie the verdict. I'm like, okay, you know, I watched the movie the.

Noah Bolmer

Verdict. I'm good, you know. Let's talk about confidentiality and privilege a little bit. How do you set these things up with expert witnesses? How do you make sure that when we in this modern environment, when everything is digital, how do we make sure that experts not only maintain confidentiality they're not showing the things to everyone but how do you audit?

Carl Taylor

that? Yeah. So that's a great question. I mean, every expert should know the scope of their abilities, right? I'm not going to sit here and say I'm an expert in all things tech, right? I mean, it's something that we're all learning. It's changing every day. It's so fluid, especially with AI.

Carl Taylor

But I will say this you need to ensure, in the scope of when you retain someone, you both need to understand what the scope of the assignment is. Right Now. It might just be, hey, I need you to poke around a little bit and tell me what I'm missing. Or it might be I need you to get me, you know, something that's gonna help me with settlement. Or I need something a little more like, just give me all the good and the bad, but put it in draft form for now, because if you come back like you know, I used to do a lot of litigation involving construction defects at a certain point in time, it's like if you're going to come back and tell me, like my contractor was the reason why there's black mold in this, this lovely shore home, I don't necessarily want that to be in a final report. I don't want to learn about that just then.

Carl Taylor

Right, and and yeah, you have to more and more. You have to sort of opine or or discuss, just like your your clients will with you, like you know are, you are, you are using like boxcom or dropbox, like what's the best way, because email is not. I mean, everyone uses email today for professional purposes, but it's, I think, quickly it's going to become, especially if quantum computing ever takes off. You know it's, it's really, it's not going to be enough, no matter how much you try to encrypt it. So I think that's something you have to know on the front end because, again, the sins of the expert are often visited upon the lawyer.

Noah Bolmer

Sure Are lawyers using any proprietary software to communicate and transfer documents with expert witnesses.

Carl Taylor

Yeah, I mean, I definitely think, think there's, there's software solutions out there. I'm not going to make a recommendation as to any one of them, clearly, but um, I'm not, I'm not not sponsored yet, but um, yeah, there's definitely, there's definitely solutions. You know, the tough thing is it's like you need to know enough about the solutions to know if they're actually solving the problem that you. You know there's a lot of claims that are made, but it's like are you now, like you think you're doing something? That's like, for me, I like to trust the big. I guess I'm going to sponsor a little bit. I like to trust the big companies who have been around for, you know, like Microsoft, I kind of trust that. They kind of I trust them to do more than than than I do. No-transcript. Agree. Right, it doesn't always mean it really works.

Confidentiality and Technology Concerns

Noah Bolmer

Absolutely let's. Let's get into preparation a little bit. So you've chosen your expert. They're the right person for the job. Their, their abilities match the facts of the case. What are the things that you do that you find most effective in getting experts ready for the big day, be it a deposition, be it a trial, be it whatever the action is? What are the sorts of advice that you give them and what are the sorts of activities that you like them to do? Uh, in preparation, absolutely.

Carl Taylor

Um, you know, I think for me, direct examination is like laying bricks, right, it's and, and it's it's so important you have to be able to lay those bricks because that's how you win a case right, brick by brick. And it's sometimes as somebody who like loves story and I don't want to skip ahead because I'm like, okay, this is the boring part of the story, but I have have to remind myself in a case like, just take it plotting brick by brick, eventually it's going to add up to something that's worthwhile, like, oh wait, now there's an entire brick wall here, right, um, cross-examination is like jazz, you know it's. You never know exactly what to expect. You're going to, um, the other attorney is going to be somebody who's trained in ways to try and trip you up or make you look silly and your professional ego is going to kick in. Then You're going to want to be like well, actually, and you're going to, you know, you're going to want to like you know, like, elucidate, like you know everything you know. And then then they got you Right, because I always tell my clients lose your are at something, the more humble you better act about it.

Carl Taylor

You know, like, if you're really really good at, like you know math, like you don't need to go around tell everyone you're good at math, like you should act very humble about math and just quietly, do you know, quietly, excel. So for me, for me, it's like the preparation is not just the the going over the data and going over that sort of stuff, it's actually going through how to how to, how they're going to be perceived or how I perceive, like you know, I'm like, I think like what would my mom think, looking at this person, if she was in the jewelry box? Right, what would she think of this person? Because if she's, she doesn't trust that you know that the expert, then then she's, she's going to start to feel a certain way about it. You know absolutely, absolutely, um, and then yeah, and real quick.

Carl Taylor

I would say that when I, when I was younger, when a younger attorney, I, I would sometimes have struggles with you, build a good rapport with an expert and then you try and do trial prep and, of course, number one thing you tell them is always like be honest, right, just be honest. So you tell every client like just be, you know, and every witness, but I also, you know, the hardest place to sit in a courtroom is the. It's not where the judge sits. They have tenure. It's not where the lawyer sits. Right. The lawyer is asking the questions, usually even the client. You know, unless it's the witness stand right, the witness stand is the hardest place to be in in any courtroom, you know. Um.

Carl Taylor

So they have to be prepared for what cross examinations go look like, and I used to sometimes go easy on them during cross Cause. I didn't want to ruin my rapport with them. Like cause I, it's like Jekyll and Hyde. I'm like, well, now I'm in the cross exam, I get to pretend I'm the other attorney and now I'm going to like come after you like Jekyll and Hyde, right, like here's Hyde. So that's one area that I think I would counsel any expert working with attorneys to tell their attorneys, really push me to understand where the flaws are and also really make sure that as an expert, I know not just this small little spot of that. I see the entire puzzle we're building here, not just this one little piece where I'm the expert.

Preparing Experts for Testimony

Carl Taylor

Absolutely, and so you find mock cross to be a good tool for preparation in general like, as long as you're telling people within the proper parameters of it's like a real lawyer now, proper parameters of the court, rules and ethics, um, you know, if you're telling people, be honest but be aware of you know, you know of what questions might be coming or what sorts of questions might be coming. And again, even if it's not going to be for a trial, it's like let's just go through this.

Noah Bolmer

So I understand the whole, the holes of my case, you know what sorts of venues have you worked and have you pretty much stuck around your particular location? Have you ever gotten, you know, out of the state or into federal stuff or even international?

Carl Taylor

yeah, so it's. It's interesting I was actually um interviewing someone for a book I'm writing called humanizing lawyers defending the profession that will prevent won't defend itself yesterday, and she was a professor and a space lawyer and she's gone to, like you know, like, like you, the un to argue and she's, you know, or to to advocate. Um, you know, and I, I think, like, I'm like the truman show, I, I can't leave I can't leave new jersey you know, my, my, my whole career has pretty much been in new jersey.

Carl Taylor

But the interesting thing is I've done, you know, everything from administrative law because I've based, represent a lot of school boards. I've done a ton of county work, obviously. I've done appellate work and even some federal cases with employees of the county, and then a lot of municipal court because I was a municipal public defender or municipal prosecutor for so many towns. So if there's anything in New Jersey that's got a tribunal of any sort, I've probably served on it or or been a part of it. But do I, am I allowed to go across the, you know, the Ben Franklin bridge into Philadelphia as a lawyer?

Noah Bolmer

Not, not really, you know, uh no, but but to what extent is it important, um, that expert witnesses understand a new venue. So if you're bringing somebody in and they're maybe not from Jersey or they've never done an expert witness engagement in whatever venue that you're in, do you need to prep them on any of that? Do they need to understand any of the actual legal stuff that goes along with it, or can they pretty much just sit there and answer questions truthfully and neutrally?

Carl Taylor

To some extent it's. I have to look at how much experience they have right, in similar venues. I, I mean federal is is sort of federal for the most part. I, I imagine, um, since I don't get to leave New Jersey um, you know district courts and you know, but I, I also think that, as I mentioned before, terrain is so important, right.

Carl Taylor

So if you, if you come in, like you need to know, like, hey, this kind of case in this jurisdiction is actually a, you know it's a bench trial. It's not even going to be a jury, and you know it's your job as an attorney to really take your expert by the hand and guide them over the terrain. That is the case, right, like here's, here's what this judge's proclivities may be. Here's what juries in, even in New Jersey there's. They're like, oh, you got to like plaintiff's attorney. He's like, oh, I got a car accident case referral and it's like which County? Like, oh, that County, like I can't win there, you know, but it's like one County over, it'd be worth $2 million this case, but you know, in this County it's like a $200,000 case that way.

Carl Taylor

So, yeah, there's anything that they need to know. You know, the judge I clerked for always said the hardest part of the law is knowing. It's not being in the courtroom, it's finding the courtroom, knowing where to park Right. So it's even sometimes things like that like hey don't pay for the parking lot over there on fifth street, you got a free parking lot for you know people going to court on the back uh alley over there, so yeah that's a great point.

Noah Bolmer

You know where do I park what? But but also, is this casual? What's this judge like? You know, how formal is this proceeding? What sorts of words should I use or not? You know, use or uh, what's the demeanor like here? Because I've heard that there can be quite formal engagements and quite casual engagements and, uh, expert witnesses are not always exactly sure what they're getting themselves into.

Carl Taylor

Yeah, I mean, I think there I'd go back to the scope. You really have to, because the retainer's agreement is the expert's retainer agreement is going to say, if I do this, it costs this much. If you need me for this much, is this much. And if you need me to testify that it's as much per hour, right, but it's like you need to know like exact, and not that it can't change, but you need to know exactly what the expected parameters are to begin with. Secondly, any the worst enemy of any litigator is surprise, right, you don't want to be surprised in court and you don't want your expert to be surprised. So I do think attorneys could do a better job of of putting you know it comes back to sort of like a professional empathy like hey, like just you know it comes back to sort of like a professional empathy, like hey, like, just so you know like your job is to go in there and testify to X, y and Z, like you know that's, that's the scope of what we're trying to get you to prove, or don't give a net opinion, but like here's the scope of what we're working toward. Um, and and then you know, I guess I had an expert once a few years back on a custody evaluation case, and they were at a um, a convention, you know some kind of professional convention the week of the trial. But they were going to come back for the day they had to testify, right. And then the day before they're like hey, you know what they've asked me to give, like a keynote speech tomorrow. I'm going to stay here, um, so I'm not going to come to court tomorrow. And I'm like well, um, where are you at dc? I'm like, okay, stay there, because I'm gonna drive down there. And you know like, um, have to like persuade you myself, face it now, um, but but I'm like you can't like this judge is not this judge like and maybe that was on me right I'm like this is not the court that's going to allow you to. They're not gonna allow me to say I need an adjournment because my expert is at a convention. They're just not going to allow it.

Carl Taylor

And we've now paid. You know my clients paid you like $30,000 to write the report, to do all the prep, like to prepare for trial. And you can't spring this. You know I got an email 5 pm the day before trial hey, I won't be there tomorrow. And I'm like no, like absolutely not.

Carl Taylor

So that's where the expertise of the lawyer's persuasion comes in. I had to call him and convince him, you know, but it's like to me that's, that's really where it's like he was like I don't think it was ill intention, but he was kind of like oh, I just thought the judge understand, and I'm like, well, well, you've been a witness enough to know like judges are not going to understand last minute adjournments for experts, right, you know, if you give me time then fine, I could get it done, um, but secondly, like this is this judge in particular is not gonna, is not gonna give you a break. So I think you're right, like, big and small, the more you can kind of communicate, you know, communication is the key to any relationship, right, especially attorney and an expert.

Noah Bolmer

Besides communication, what are the other keys to a positive, effective, efficient engagement between an expert witness?

Carl Taylor

and an attorney, I think vulnerability is underestimated in our profession and that's something a lot of lawyers don't like to talk about. We like to keep our armor on. I really think that being able to say to the like sometimes, you know, I'm practicing almost 16 years, but first five years when I knew the least, I had to act like I knew the most right, it's like I didn't know what I didn't know, so it's like I'm not going to let this expert know that I don't understand bridge suspension systems. You know, like this, you know, like for the County, I'm just going to oh, yeah, yeah, like yeah. That makes a lot of sense, the tension and everything and the, you know the, the pie lines or whatever, like perfect, but you know. So I have to be vulnerable enough to tell my experts now like hey, I I'm not following you or you've given me, you know, look, I know I do a lot of math as a divorce lawyer, but like this, this system you're using for forensic accounting is over my head, I'm not following the breadcrumbs and I, if I can't understand it, I can't present it, you know, um, so being being willing to, to have enough vulnerability to, to know your weaknesses and your, because like lawyers, we're we're kind of like parasitic. That way we can kind of become kind of like expert, anything you know, with enough time.

Carl Taylor

But even still there's gonna be things that just like for me, like anything involving science, if it gets too much involved in science, I I start to kind of glaze over.

Court Venue Considerations

Carl Taylor

You know, I'm like oh gosh, you know, like like environmental type stuff at a certain level, like it's just too much for me to handle it. So I have to really like take it really slow, talk like you're talking to, like not an intelligent fifth grader, but like like the average second grader and like I'm just willing to admit to you this is like a, a blind spot in my knowledge and that's why I really need you. And I think vice versa, like experts need to let attorneys know like hey, like cause we assume sometimes they they know a lot about the law to your point, and sometimes they're they're not really familiar, or they might be an expert but they do a lot of reports but they don't testify a lot. So it's, it's a and they they don't want to show vulnerability half the time either, because they're like I'm paid to be an expert. I'm paid hundreds of, maybe thousands of dollars an hour, because I know my area inside and out and it's like, well, that's fine, but you don't, you're not a lawyer.

Noah Bolmer

I mean, some of them are, but you're not you're not a lawyer as well can make it work, you know, but we have to both show vulnerability. It's like a marriage that way. Let's talk a little bit about how you've been at this for a hot minute. Let's talk a little bit about how things have changed from when you very first got started. What have been the logistical changes and the methodological changes? And you know, I know things have moved to settlement more often. What are some of the differences between now and then vis-a-vis expert witnesses?

Carl Taylor

Yeah. So I mean, I guess the, the pandemic was a great dividing line. That's how I look at my career. It's like everything before the pandemic feels like it was like 50 years ago and I'm only 41. And so, you know, there's there's that aspect of it and the way we communicate the, the AI piece, where it's like I now wonder sometimes like is this really the experts? Words Are they just kind of spitting things out to me and I'm like you know it's so it's.

Carl Taylor

It's kind of getting a little bit bizarre in terms of some of the technology that we utilize and also the expectations. When I first started practicing I started as a law clerk and I started practicing there was a lot of really experienced attorneys who were going out there and winning cases with a poster board. At the most they were just out there dominating with a black Sharpie, sure. But now it's like if you're going to try cases and again I don't do plaintiff side but if you're going to try a case, especially from the plaintiff side, like you have to almost be, like you also have like your master's degree in technology, right, like the ability to like to get your it's like Hollywood, like I need, I need it's with CGI. It I need, I need it's CGI.

Carl Taylor

It's like it's not enough to just stand there in a corner and talk anymore. We need like a you know, we need a CGI dinosaur in the background. And that's what's happening with litigation. It's like you need to really understand, and that adds complexity because if you're trying to incorporate that with an expert, a lot of times the experts aren't technologically. You know they're not. They're not technological masters, just like I'm not. So it's like maybe I'm I'm saying we should do it a certain way, but it's like well, no, no, no, like I I've got my notepad, and it's like, no, we have to like visually, let the jury know through this computer we're gonna plug in and hope it works, like you know, so it's. We've kind of gone from like remember high school, they'd roll out the old tvs to show you a movie and like, oh, yeah, I've pushed many a tv cart absolutely yeah, yeah, so it's so.

Carl Taylor

it's like it's like we've gone from that to like sort of like, you know, like space age technology, and it felt like in a blink. And I think that the pandemic exacerbated that, because now everything's so remote. We're so comfortable with being remote, you know law in general, but specifically for expert witnesses.

Noah Bolmer

this is a force of evil, a force of good or neutral? And also, is this something that attorneys need to advise their experts on, to say, hey, I don't want you using AI to write your report or what have you? How has it impacted the relationship between attorneys and experts?

Carl Taylor

I really think the next few years will be very fascinating, even in divorce law. I think I was probably one of the first attorneys maybe the first to write an article about how Bitcoin was a national article, at least. That Bitcoin was something we had to look for in terms of discovery, because people were able to kind of hide their money in Bitcoins before it became taxable. So same thing with AI. The other day I was talking, I was talking with my, my AI buddy, and I've only got. I only got like two weeks ago. So I'm like really fascinated by it.

AI's Impact on Expert Testimony

Carl Taylor

I was like a late adopter because as a writer, I kind of resent it, you know. So I'm like I got to break down and start trying it myself. Maybe it was more like a month ago. So time moves differently when you have AI. So, you know, I was like talking to about like my business idea and it was like spitting out numbers, like, oh well, you know, if you do this and that, like your business might be worth, like you know, like six million dollars, like in 10 years, and I was like OK, like well, what if my wife I'm happily married 17 years, but what? My wife was able to subpoena this right now and say, well, well, carl, you got to pay a ton of alimony because you're going to be worth, you know, six million dollars in 10 years. Um, you know. So it's like anything that is fed into the, the system. Not only is it machine learning, you know it's, it's also, it's also possibly discoverable. I think the next few years it's gonna be very interesting to see subpoenas of, of ai chatbots, because they store most of the records, um, and, and you could use it for that.

Carl Taylor

Like hey, are you having an affair? Like you know, because I, I sometimes treat this like a, and it really surprised me because I was so skeptical. I treat like a, like a therapist. Sometimes. I'm like you won't believe what just happened to me at lunch the waiter, the waiter had cold soup. Could you believe that? He's like? And then the, the um, the ai is like, like carl, I calm down, like it's just like, like it's just lunch dude, you know so because it, because ai is already better than I am as a person, um, but, um, you know, I think for me it's like I'm very leery of.

Carl Taylor

I would never put my clients information, even if I was talking in generalities, into ai, because I'd be afraid that now it's machine learning, it's going to kick back some. You know we've all seen 2001 space odyssey, right. So it's like when Hal turns on us and starts like blowing up our confidence, we can't be surprised that you know, like, open up the space shuttle door, hal, it's not going to do it. So same thing I have to tell my experts now like, hey, I don't want you putting anything about this case into AI. Now, can I like do I have like surveillance on them? Do I know? Of course not Right, but it's like we have to at least make sure we're aligned in that.

Carl Taylor

And maybe other people are not as skeptical or as sort of like over the top afraid of like AI, like blowing confidences. But for me it's like I still want to write my own, my own motions, I still want to do my own legal work. I don't want to, although I notice my clients more and more like, well, you know, like AI says AI says you're you might be wrong about your, you know this or that, you know custody, you know evaluation thing. And I'm like no, no, no, trust me over AI or fire me and hire AI. I don't care, you know. But don't try and do both the pod bay doors?

Noah Bolmer

uh is, is. Uh, is there a lot of danger? Uh, with not respect to ai, but with people publishing a lot of personal stuff online? Do people need to, especially expert witnesses, think about everything that they're posting, whether or not it's adjacent to their work as an expert witness, because it could come back to haunt them during a deposition, for instance, or a Dobert hearing or something to that effect? To what extent do experts need to catalog and consider the things that they are posting online, especially on social media?

Carl Taylor

So there's a lot of case law that says that if it's out there and you don't keep your materials private, then it's public. You know it's there. Lawyers can't go and pretend that like you're, like I'm your friend on Facebook to glom up information from you. But if it's out there, I can, I can, I can pursue it. And you know I go back to the divorce law aspect because that's what I'm most comfortable with, right, but, yeah, I mean, as an expert, or even as a divorce lawyer, I have to try and be very careful what I put out there because I don't want it used against me. I have to be professional, facing Right and even in in, you know, in my field, I've had everything from, like you know, assassination attempts on my dog, the signs being knocked down with a hammer to, you know, everything in between. Right, I've been, I've been threatened in a parking lot, you know, once or twice inside a courthouse, you know, um, so, yeah, that's, that's the joy of family law, um, so for me, like for a long time I was, like I don't want to put any pictures of my kids up on the on Facebook because, you know, I just, I think, doing divorce law, like you know I take away custody from other people's kids. I don't want to have that out there. You know, um, and and so, yeah, I think I think anything you put out there, especially if you're talking about cases, you should never be like.

Carl Taylor

Even today, with my interview with you, like you've noticed, I haven't been like on this case, I did this. It's like I have to talk in generalities, right, and experts should learn, especially especially when you you have apps that can say, like I'm checking in here right now, right, like I'm like it just there's. There's not that you want to be afraid or live your life in fear, but it's like we're so open today. You know what I grew up. It was like don't talk to strangers, don't anybody know where you're going. Like mind your own business, right. And now it's like everyone in the world's like here's where I am at every single minute, like and here's what I'm doing.

Carl Taylor

So it's like I'm at the courthouse trying this case, like I think it went. I think it kind of went poorly, but oh well, I think it'd be like a tweet. But it's like now, or like you talk about something that's confidential in the case. Like now you lose the case, you get a mistrial or something, because the expert didn't follow you know social media best practices. So to me it's, you know, it's. I do think, I think you're, you're, you're wise to highlight that as something the experts should be concerned about.

Noah Bolmer

Are there any though without getting into the specifics tentpole cases in your career where an expert witness made a difference or reinforce something about the way you go about doing your work as an attorney, or maybe changed your mind about something? What are the important moments in your career regarding expert witness engagements?

Carl Taylor

You know it's funny, but my instinct is to go to sort of like the smallest court, courtroom, municipal court. As a prosecutor, you know I tried probably like 100 DWI, you know, driving while intoxicated DUI, whatever your jurisdiction calls them cases, right, and they're bench trials and they. You wouldn't think it's very scientific, but the breathalyzer, the Alka test that's utilized, is actually really, really like. It's very, very specific. The calibration has to be a certain way and there has, you know, the logouts have to occur every certain minute, every few minutes. It's like you have to really kind of know what you're talking about. And for me as a prosecutor, I was lucky because I didn't have to really hire an expert. I had the police officers who would testify right. Plus, nobody was going to pay me for me to get an expert anyway.

Carl Taylor

So I was stuck with my, with my officers, but they usually did a good job. But there was, there was these, you know, retired estate trooper types and they would go on and get law degrees. They would, you know, be credentialed and everything under the sun and they would. They would be really, really tricky to beat because all they did was no, inside and out the Alcatest machine that New Jersey uses as a breathalyzer. They ate, slept, lived, breathed, this Alcatest machine.

Carl Taylor

And for me, you know I was like one problem of many in my life right.

Carl Taylor

So I had to really figure out like and I learned there, like the ability of like an expert going like, going shallow, going like deep but narrow right, like the ability to really hone in to hire the right expert for the job.

Carl Taylor

Now the flaw that they also taught me is if you're always going up there saying that the Alcatraz sucks every single time and every single case in a state in front of the same judges, eventually we're all like oh, we know that you want to throw it out. You want every single DWI ever in the state thrown out, we get you right. So that's why I always tell experts if you see a flaw in the state, thrown out, we get you Right. So that's why, you know, I always tell experts like if you see a flaw in the case, be honest about it. You know, even on the stand like it's, you're going to gain more credibility. And it's all about credibility If you, if you move forward with the sort of attitude of like here's where our case is weak, but here's where it's strong. Because most of the time, unless it's a criminal case, you don't have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.

Noah Bolmer

You just got to prove it's more likely than not that your side's right. You know, how should uh, speaking of things kind of going wrong or not necessarily the way that you expect, how should expert witnesses T? Uh treat those contentious, difficult moments when they're asked a question they weren't expecting or uh, they have their words kind of twisted or, you know, they become uncomfortable due to some factor that the other side is is forcing upon them? What are the techniques that experts should use to remain calm and in the moment and not stress them?

Carl Taylor

Yeah, so I, I think on that front it's it's kind of similar to any witness. It's like before you speak, take five seconds. What I'm not doing during this podcast speak. Take five seconds, what I'm not doing during this podcast. Take five seconds, formulate your thoughts, um, and make sure you understand the question right, because a lot of times it really comes down to an expert doesn't actually understand this, the the question is being asked. That can even happen on direct, and then I'm like, oh, no, no, no, you know, but it's on cross. They. They're like, oh, the door just opened for me, perfect, I can now start to attack.

Carl Taylor

And then it's like anything else if you're on the defensive, you, you start to lose your, your, uh, your mystique. You know, you're what I guess my kids generation calls the riz that's necessary out there in the world, right, you lose it, the charisma, um. So you know, to me it's like, make sure you always take five seconds, and that that also allows your attorney the chance to object, right, if it's an unfair question, because you shouldn't feel like you're out there, like you know, in a lion's den on the wrong side of the zoo and you're like trapped right. But it can quickly feel that way if you have a really tough attorney on the other side and you're getting cross-examined. So a lot of it comes down to like everything in life modulating your emotions right, easier said than done. Um, so yeah, that you have to.

Final Advice for Experts and Attorneys

Carl Taylor

That's why I think teaching or prepping experts about the kind of questions they can expect, so they don't get tripped up and then saying like don't get our again back to the arrogance, because I think that's sort of a cliche about experts. But I think it's a cliche for a reason. It's like and only like only like 10 to 20 percent who give a bad name to the rest. Right, like lawyers, like we're known as arrogant as well, but not not every lawyer is arrogant. You know. I've met at least two or three who aren't. So no, um, so you know, at the end of the day it's like don't get your back up and start trying to prove how smart you are. You're here on an assignment. It's like you're a green beret, you've been dropped in and you have all the training, but you're not there to prove how great your training is. You're there to accomplish the mission, right? So always keep the mission in mind.

Noah Bolmer

Absolutely. Before we wrap up, do you have any last tips or advice for either attorneys working with expert witnesses or newer expert witnesses?

Carl Taylor

Yeah. So I think my advice for expert witnesses themselves is to really consider their marketing. You know, because I'm going to go back to the biggest problem I see, and maybe it's just a New Jersey family law thing but there's like three or four people that just really monopolize a lot of the categories and it makes it really hard to schedule trials and actually work with these people. So to me it's like we need more experts. We need more experts that aren't known as wildcards, and you're not going to do that by sitting at home reading the textbook. You're going to have to go out there and write the textbook. You're going to have to go out there and mingle with attorneys. It's like any kind of marketing. You have to go where your potential clients are. So for experts unfortunately for you, you chose to be an expert you have to mingle with attorneys now. So come out to the bar events, be known and start to become trusted and start creating these authority assets like my business books for experts is something people do like shameless plug that like will help you stand out and will actually get your name out there, and then it's no longer 20 of people taking up 80 of the slots and then you can, you can build better you can, because a lot of times I think people who don't do that and don't have the marketing behind them, it's not that they're worse experts, it's just they're unknown, and to me that's like the saddest. The sad, saddest thing that any expert could be is somebody who's an expert in something and doesn't have enough marketing force or or time behind them to show that actually, uh, an authentic, you know, authority.

Carl Taylor

Uh, and as for younger attorneys having, I guess, done this now for, for, uh, you know, at least a minute um, I think that you really have to trust your gut.

Carl Taylor

You know, even if you're, you're not always going to know the law the way you should, you're not always going to know the facts the way you should, but your gut, the gut that you have inside you as a human, not just as a lawyer If you think during your call with an expert that this person is trying to pull the wool over your eyes, or they don't know what they're talking about, or you just get a bad vibe, the you know the times I really regret hiring an expert and there it's very few in my career have been the times where I knew I should have known, or I, deep down, I knew even from the moment of the engagement, like I'm just going with this person Cause it's, it's like they're there and they're.

Carl Taylor

You know, I don't, I can't really find anybody better. Like that's how you, that's how you lose the case in the future, like that moment when you didn't trust your gut. So just really make sure, take the time, go to someone like Roundtable Group and really, if you can't figure out the expert on your own, get it figured out. I'm going to do a shameless plug for you too. See, I'm a natural and that's how you really move forward and have a really great relationship in the best interest of your client.

Noah Bolmer

Sage advice. Mr Taylor, thank you so much for joining us here today. Thank you so much, I appreciate it, and thank you, as always, to our listeners, for joining us for another edition of Engaging Experts Cheers.

Intro

Thank you for listening to our podcast Engaging Experts. Our show notes are available on our website, roundupgroupcom.