Engaging Experts
After 25 years helping litigators find the right expert witnesses, Round Table Group’s network contains some of the world’s greatest experts. On this podcast, we talk to some of them about what’s new in their field of study and their experience as expert witnesses.
Engaging Experts
Engaging with Supply Chain Expert, Steve Hopper
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When Steve Hopper received an unexpected call from an attorney thirteen years ago, he never imagined it would lead to a second career spanning over 55 cases as an expert witness in warehousing and logistics. Initially skeptical about expert witnessing due to negative media portrayals, Hopper discovered the critical importance of bringing specialized knowledge to judges and juries navigating complex technical issues.
Perhaps most valuable is Hopper's perspective on ethics in expert testimony. "I'm not an advocate for your side of the case," he explains. "It's not my job. You're the advocate, I'm not the advocate." This commitment to factual accuracy has occasionally led him to withdraw from cases where attorneys pressured him to offer opinions he considered unsupported. For professionals in any field considering expert witness work, Hopper's experience provides a roadmap for maintaining integrity while delivering effective testimony.
Considering sharing your expertise in the courtroom? Listen now to discover the realities of expert witnessing from someone who's navigated its challenges for over a decade.
Introduction to Steve Hopper
Speaker 1This episode is brought to you by Roundtable Group the experts on experts. We've been connecting attorneys with experts for over 30 years. Find out more at roundtablegroupcom. Welcome to Engaging Experts. I'm your host, noah Balmer, and today I'm excited to welcome Steve Hopper to the show Now. Mr Hopper is the founder of Invisid Consulting, a consulting firm specializing in driving down operating costs, improving service levels and warehousing, distribution, fulfillment and logistics. Mr Hopper holds a bachelor in industrial engineering from the Georgia Institute of Technology. Mr Hopper, thank you so much for joining me here today. Hey, it's my pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me, of course. Now let's jump into it. You've been in the logistics space for wow, nearly 40 years now. How did you first become involved in expert witnessing?
Speaker 2I guess it was about 12 or 13 years ago, Really out of the blue, I got a phone call from an attorney who was working on a case and he just asked me hey, would you be interested in serving as an expert on this case? After he spoke with me for a few minutes and at the time I was, you know, green in doing this type of work, and I, you know I said, sure, you know, let's, let's check it out. And one thing led to another and since that time I think it's been 55 cases that I've been working on.
Speaker 1Wow, so many. Well, let's back up to those first ones. Did you know that being an expert witness was a potential uh you know career path? Or heard of expert witnessing before I had?
Speaker 2heard of it. Um, I, almost um, if I'm being, you know, candid with you, I, I almost viewed it as kind of a stigma, you know, because I'd probably seen too many TV shows where the expert witnesses are kind of almost viewed as sleazebags in the roles that they played. That. And as I began to explore it further, it became apparent to me how important it is to do expert witness work as long as, obviously, you are an expert in the subject matter that you're working in, and I think that's an important fundamental factor.
Speaker 1You know, that's something that I would like to explore a little bit. Why are expert witnesses important in general to jurisprudence? What is the place for expert witnesses in general in law?
Speaker 2I would probably explain it this way when you're getting into certain subject matter that your typical juror or judge might not really understand and it may not be something heavily, heavily technical, it just could be an industry or an element of the moving parts of that industry, so to speak, and different things like the technologies and practices and common ways of doing business in that industry I think can be very helpful to those people like judges and jurors in these types of cases.
Speaker 1Let's talk about those initial phone calls. It's a two-way vetting process You're deciding whether or not you want to take the engagement and the attorney's deciding whether or not they want to engage you. What are the important questions that expert witnesses should be asking and what are the sorts of questions that you typically hear from attorneys during that initial phone call?
Speaker 2Well, I, you know, I know to ask these questions now, but as I started out I didn't really think to ask them. But certain questions like what type of a case is it? Because there are, first of all, there are different jurisdictions. Every state has jurisdictions, there are federal, there are, of course, federal courts and the federal court system and all the rules and rules of engagement, so to speak, vary considerably by state and by, you know, federal. There are nuances with respect to whether it's a civil case or a criminal case.
Speaker 2I've been, you know, picking up on this through the years In my line of work. I've actually only had one or two cases that were criminal in nature, but that's something to consider. And then also the fact another factor is, you know, you consider, and then also the fact another factor is you know, would you be working on, would you be retained by the side that is the plaintiff in the case or the side that is the defendant in the case? Because, depending on which way that is, it can affect the types of things that you would end up doing. On the case itself, what are?
Speaker 1some of the differences between working for the plaintiff and working for the defendant.
Journey into Expert Witnessing
Speaker 2Working for the plaintiff. A lot of times the term I've used and I apologize, not being an attorney if I'm not using the correct terms, so any attorneys out there hopefully won't hold this against me but a lot of times when you're retained by the plaintiff, you're doing what's known as an affirmative role, where you're trying to demonstrate. You know you're trying to provide factual information that can be used by the side of the case that is trying to make a claim. If you're working on behalf of a defendant, a lot of times you're more in a rebuttal mode. You're trying to provide the information that would help the side of the case that needs to rebut someone else's claim, and so, as a result of that, you know you may kind of see that through two different lenses.
Speaker 2I can just give you a very specific example. I'm working on a case now that the side that retained me is the defense, and so they have asked me to review a report and some other factual information that was provided by the plaintiff's side, and then, as I've reviewed that, I'm in that rebuttal mode. I'm looking at it and looking for the errors in it and for the unreasonable conclusions and things like that, whereas if I've been working on the plaintiff's side of a case. I'm not rebutting anything, yet I'm in a more affirmative role of helping them make the claim in the first place.
Speaker 1How is it writing a rebuttal report versus writing an initial expert report?
Speaker 2Yes, I think there are some pretty substantial differences. When you're retained by the plaintiff, it's a little more nebulous in terms of what you are focusing on to prepare a report, and I have to spend extra time with the plaintiff's attorney to understand what is it exactly they want me to address. And I might even go as far as you know suggest hey, would you like to give me, for example, a list of questions you would want me to answer in my report, Because that way I can zero in on what opinions are important to you. When you work on the defense side. It's a little easier, I think, because you know exactly what you're going to be commenting on, because you're responding to opinions that were already given by somebody else or claims that were already made by somebody else, and so it's a little more clear what you're having to give an opinion on when you're on that side.
Plaintiff vs. Defense Expert Roles
Speaker 1One of the things that you mentioned when we first started talking was on different venues. You have state, you have federal, you have different types of state, you have criminal versus civil. What is it like as an expert witness working in different venues? Do you need to familiarize yourself with any of the norms or laws? Going into a completely new venue, do you work with your attorney to understand what those different rules might be? How do you go into working in a new venue that you've never worked in before?
Speaker 2Yeah, that's a great question because there are so many differences. I've picked up a little bit on this through the years and it's not something that becomes difficult, it's just it stresses the importance of making sure that you understand the rules of engagement when you begin working with an attorney. So let me give you just some examples. I think they vary, there are. I would always lean on the attorney to kind of make sure that I understand what those rules of engagement are. But I believe in general terms, an example is at the federal level, correspondence between the expert witness and the attorney is generally considered protected.
Speaker 2So just to give a very simple example, if I were to email some questions to the attorney and said, hey, have we looked at this, or what about this? Or you know, I'm thinking maybe this might be a factor, you know, whatever those kinds of exchanges would generally be protected and the other side couldn't discover, to use the legal term, they couldn't have access to what those conversations were, because they were protected. But in many states, at the state level, in the state courts and of course it varies widely by state those conversations are not protected. So if you were to raise an issue with the attorney in an email, for example, and it wasn't protected, then the attorneys for the other side could potentially get access to those conversations and, you know, it could give them information that maybe your side of the case would not want them to see, so you have to be sensitive about it. Just something we should be discussing in an email exchange, for example, versus maybe just a phone call.
Speaker 1Do you find that attorneys do a fairly good job at letting you know what is discoverable, what is not, how they would prefer you to communicate various things, given the venue that you're going to be working?
Speaker 2Well, I hope the attorneys listening to this won't hate me for this, but I would say no, no, I do not. I think it's if I didn't, if I hadn't learned to ask these questions, most of them would not tell me. And I don't think if they don't want to tell me, they just generally not thinking about telling me certain things that are the rules of engagement, so to speak, up front. But I've learned and asked that question, you know.
Speaker 1Yeah, that's a common refrain among expert witnesses you are not the first and you shan't be the last expert witnesses. You are not the first and you shan't be the last. So, besides that, what are some of the other things that attorneys could be doing a better job with vis-a-vis their expert witnesses in terms of preparing them just overall for the case? What should attorneys be letting their experts know before starting a case?
Speaker 2Well, I think a lot of that has to do with the facts of the case. And again, I don't mean to make it sound like attorneys are intentionally like withholding information or anything like that. But I think, you know, if I put my myself into the mind of an attorney, they got a bunch of cases going on. They're juggling things that you know. They just aren't thinking about maybe what I need to get my hands on. So many times now it's happened where I'm looking for a piece of information, or I might be looking for some something that was filed, you know, between the attorneys and the court. I might be looking for a piece of evidence, that that, an um, an exhibit or or something like that. And, uh, I either have to ask, hey, do we have this? Do can I, can I get my hands on this? Or, uh, you know, where can I, where can I find this? And so forth. And oftentimes the attorneys either will say, oh, I thought you already had that and I don't. They never sent it to me, or they'll they'll say, oh, I thought you already had that and I don't, because they never sent it to me, or they'll say, hmm, I never thought about the fact that maybe that would be helpful to you, but you know we'll get it to you.
Speaker 2So I think the lesson to be learned there is always ask, and I'm constantly asking attorneys do I have everything here? Do I have all the pleadings and filings and do I have all the exhibits and so forth, the depositions? Do I have everything that? I need to review this, because more than once now it's happened, where I've gotten into a deposition where the opposing attorney brings something up and says well, are you familiar with this deposition? And it was never shared with me, you know. Or or this you know and it was never shared with me. And I have to be truthful, right? So I have to say, actually no, I was never given that. And then they start to rant like you mean, your attorney never gave you this important deposition or this, you know, exhibit. All I can say is, well, no, I wasn't aware of that before today, which is the truth, and I have to tell the truth.
Speaker 1So you advocate for a proactive approach. Expert witnesses should be asking their attorneys for things that they might be missing, but of course, a newer expert witness doesn't know what they don't know. They don't know what they need to have, necessarily, and what they're going to be quizzed about on the stand. And speaking of being quizzed on the stand, let's talk about preparation a little bit. What are the most effective preparation methods for expert witnesses? Do you like a mock cross-examination? Do you like to just make sure that you've read your report and have it kind of memorized? How do you get ready for a for you, for the big?
Speaker 2day, I, you will I spend a lot of time talking to the attorney and and because, again, they're the expert in the, in the legal strategy and and in what they think is going to take place in the courtroom or whatever. So, again, I'm asking questions to the attorney about you know what, sometimes there are many, many documents and many, many. You know, everything from depositions to exhibits and so forth that have been on a case, and I'll ask them which ones of these things do I really need to go back and really be prepared to respond to versus. You know you don't want to boil the ocean I use that term a lot and yet careful not to not to just, you know, be an expert in everything that's there but what are the really key things that we think are going to come up and what key to your point, what, what questions do you think I'll be asked? And, um, uh, be asked? And those kinds of things in preparation I think are extremely important.
Speaker 1How about pretrial routines or predepositive routines? I've had expert witnesses telling me oh, you know, I do yoga, or I avoid breakfast, or I drink a ton of caffeine, a ton of caffeine, or you know, everybody seems to have like a little bit of a routine before the big day to keep them from, you know, getting a little bit of jitters or making sure that they're mentally prepared. Do you have any sort of routine or ritual before a a big action?
Navigating Different Legal Venues
Speaker 2Well, if it's uh, these days, you know, some of these actions are becoming virtual. Um, that's right, I think it might, my, my thought process might be a little different if I were doing in-person testimony, which, you know, at a, at a trial or hearing, most of them are in person. Um, but um, but depositions are now getting more and more remote, right, um, but no, I really don't think. Maybe I'm not the kind of person that tends to obsess over, you know, routine like that. I mean, obviously I want to, I want to feel prepared.
Speaker 2So I spend the time reviewing the things that, again, the attorney and I have talked about, that we think are going to be brought up and and getting a good night's sleep.
Speaker 2You know, there's no, like they, like they showed on the commercial, you know, years ago, for one of the hotel chains like and, and there's no, there's no, nothing, uh, no exception for a good night's sleep kind of thing.
Speaker 2Um, and if I'm uh, if I'm remote and if I'm going to be doing it on camera, I'll typically have a cup of coffee and a, you know, or a bottle of water you know handy, that that I can sip on, you know, during that. But no, I don't think there's any other routine kind of things that I tend to. You know, one of the things that I do is typically ask the attorneys about you know what I should wear. Some attorneys, will you know, will say we want you in a suit and a tie and other ones might say, no, you can just wear a sport sport coat and a no tie and just a sport shirt or whatever you know. I'll ask those kinds of things to prepare for trial. But as far as, as far as waking up and, you know, going through some superstitious routine or anything like, that I don't.
Speaker 2I don't have anything like that lined up.
Speaker 1As far as you know, it's interesting you bring up wearing a coat or not, wearing a tie or not. I have heard from expert witnesses that some venues tend to be more formal and some tend to be more casual. Have you noticed a difference between various venues? How do you work on demeanor? How do you make sure that you're presenting yourself, uh, not only appropriately, but appropriately for the specific venue that you're going to be?
Speaker 2Well, I think, yeah, you, you want to. You want to respect the decorum right Of whatever the venue is that you're, that you're going to be testifying in, but not being, not being someone who's really extensively skilled and experienced with that kind of thing. Again, I, you know. My question is for the attorney. You know what. What is, what is the appropriate thing? I want to show respect to the judge, I want to show respect to the jury, I want to, you know, wear the thing that is, that is appropriate. But you know there is an opposite extreme to that. I don't want to wear something that looks too pretentious or too, you know. I mean, I want to be, I want the judge and the jury to relate to me and be respectful of them and all that, but I don't want to overdo it one way or the other, and so I, like I said, I lean heavily on what the attorney would recommend.
Speaker 1I've had a good deal of experts tell me that during the pandemic a lot of this moved to virtual. And have you noticed, besides these virtual engagements, any other technological changes or changes in expert witnessing at all? You've been doing this for a hot minute. Have you seen any significant changes in expert witnessing from when you first got started till now?
Speaker 2Well, there was certainly that period, like you're referring to, during COVID, where you know the in-person contact changed quite a bit. But since you know we've come out of the woods on that quite a bit, I do think the and not just in litigation work but in business in general, I do think people have begun to appreciate the use of technology, that it can be very effectively used to do some of these kinds of events and activities, activities. But I think that the pendulum swung a little bit further back towards the in-person testimonies and so forth after we came out of the woods on COVID. But other than that aspect of it, I really haven't observed a lot of difference with respect to how these, how these are done, other than, like I said, a little bit of a um, a little bit of a trend towards the virtual as opposed to the in-person. But yeah, everything else has has pretty much stayed the same, at least in my observation as somebody who's done.
Speaker 1You had said over 50 cases. Do you have a couple? Obviously you don't need to bring up any specific names. You know there's NDAs, there's all kinds of things that you know. We can't always talk about the specifics, but are there a couple cases that either change the way you go about some aspect of expert witnessing or reinforce something that you're already doing?
Communication and Preparation Strategies
Speaker 2Well, I think we've touched on a couple of those where you don't want to be the expression I sometimes use deer in the headlights, right, you don't want to be asked a question that you didn't explore with the attorney for the content that might come up during the deposition or during the trial, so that you're prepared to answer it. And you know the funny thing about all that is one thing I learned when I first started doing expert witness work and had some training courses and some of that one of the things that I took away from the very, very beginning of it is you know, we're not supposed to advocate for one side or the other.
Speaker 2You know, even though one attorney has hired us to be involved in a case, we're not an advocate for one side or the other.
Speaker 2The way it was presented to me early on was we are an advocate for the truth.
Speaker 2To me early on was we are an advocate for the truth, you know. But that said, we've been retained by a side and we need to help them get the truth out there that is going to help their case. And so kind of being mindful about that and again in the conversation with the attorney, trying to figure out how can we explain this in a way that is going to help again judge and jury really understand the facts of the case in a way that they can make a good decision on that and without really in my earlier days maybe I didn't so mindfully think about doing that kind of thing. I just kind of went through the motions and did what I was told. But now that I've done it a few times, I'm a little more proactive about trying to figure out what kind of language to use and whether I should bring an exhibit that might articulate something better or not bring an exhibit and things like and and uh, things like that, and in my mind, the way my mind works, and these kinds of things.
Speaker 1Well, let's talk exhibits. Do you find demonstratives to be particularly effective in connecting with lay persons, Cause we always have to assume that the finder of fact, be it a judge in a bench trial or the jurors in a jury trial, are laypersons. Do you find demonstratives, be they charts, graphs, models, et cetera do you find that these help you connect and explain your particular field of expertise?
Speaker 2Yeah, Well, they certainly can be helpful and you know, again, it's something that I want to make sure that I review with the attorney so we can talk about what's it going. A picture is worth a thousand words and I can just show a chart or a table or a graph In my line of work. A layout, a CAD drawing of a layout of an area can be helpful to others so that they can kind of get get a mental picture of what did this look like? Um, but? But a lot of these um, demonstrative exhibits might just be a table or a chart, um, you know that summarizes, summarizes it easily for for um, you know the jurors or the judge to see.
Speaker 1Does the trial team typically produce those for you, or do you typically contract those out?
Speaker 2Well, I mean, it's been a little both, but I think in most cases the attorneys have asked me to produce them and you know, and I guess it's because they don't want to be perceived as putting words in my mouth, even though they're visual and not actual words. But yeah, there have have been once or twice when the attorneys or their people because there may be other experts involved Like I'm working on a case right now where there's an accident reconstruction team and they have very sophisticated animation and graphical capabilities that you know me, as just an industrial engineer, I don't have those kinds of capabilities, and so they're producing exhibits that you know. Could I do something that helped articulate that? Possibly, but why not just let those guys do it? Because they, you know that are much more sophisticated at being able to produce something that's that's very, very, um, professional in that way.
Speaker 1Yeah, that segues to an interesting topic about trial teams, because you know a lot of newer experts don't realize it's not just you and the engaging attorney. There could be other attorneys, paralegals, other expert witnesses. You know there's a whole diverse cast of characters that makes up the trial team. To what extent do you interact with other members of the trial team during an engagement?
Speaker 2That has been variable because of what I said before. I think certain attorneys, because of the rules of litigation in that jurisdiction, sometimes they don't want you talking with others who are performing those kinds of roles. Other times they encourage it. Other times they'll encourage us to have a meeting of the minds and talk about these different things because we, even though we're not acting as experts in the exact same element of the case, we may be experts in things that are connected or, you know, might be involved with each other. So having that, you know, discussion can be helpful to both of us. So it really varies depending on the nature of the case and I'm always so careful to make sure what exactly are these rules of engagement on this case and I even, you know, a lot of times will make notes to myself about, you know, following those rules. For that case and some other case I wouldn't have to follow those rules.
Speaker 1Let's move to the general a little bit. What makes for a great expert attorney engagement?
Speaker 2What are the factors that lead to efficiency and quality and even a little bit of fun, I think you know, in retrospect, more than anything else, making sure that both of us and when I say that I mean and making sure that both of us, and when I say that I mean me and the attorney or the attorneys both of us understand exactly what the expectation of my role is. Again, like I said earlier, what questions do they want me to answer? What kinds of questions do they not want me to answer? There have been a number of situations where I could, where my expertise goes into areas that I could answer, but either they have some other expert who's dwelling in some of that or they don't want me to step out of my lane, or maybe even I mean I'm just speculating here, but they maybe even they don't want to open a can of worms. I mean I'm just speculating here, but they maybe even they don't want to open a can of worms and delving into subject matter that I could, as an expert, answer, but they just don't want, don't want brought to the surface for some reason. So I'm I'm, I'm all about at that front end making sure exactly what it is, you know, what is my lane Right, what do they want me to focus on and so I can really focus really drive in that direction, so to speak, and I think the more that I've spent the time to do that up front, the easier it has been.
Speaker 2I also typically will find out from the attorney. You know I keep using the term rules of engagement. But you know, different attorneys, just like people in general, have different communication methods that they prefer. And so some people, you know, they're all about email, Some people are all about text messages, some people are all about phone calls or whatever it is and really understanding you know, hey, what's the best way for us to communicate with each other so that we can do this really effectively? And I always tell, I always try to remember to tell all my attorneys. You know they can contact me 24-7. I mean they can contact me day, night, evening, weekend.
Speaker 2I have a philosophy that if my phone rings and I'm not in the middle of something else, I answer it, regardless of when that is. And I make sure they know that up front so they don't have to feel like, well, I have to schedule a call with Steve at 2 o'clock on Thursday afternoon by an Outlook invite. They can do that if they want, but they can just pick up the phone and call me or they can text me and say, hey, you got time to talk and we'll hop on. But establishing all these things up front can be very helpful, um again, trying to get to the bottom of the information that I'm going to need on the case and and making sure that they provide that to me. Um, and asking them how much they want, how deeply they want me to review it.
Using Visual Exhibits Effectively
Speaker 2You know, because I'm billing for my time and I want to respect that. They've asked me to work for them and I don't want to just bill for the sake of billing. I want to bill. You know enough time to do the work that they've asked me to do. But you know I could spend days scrutinizing every line of a deposition, or I could do a quick read-through in an hour or two and get the gist of the deposition, what's important to do on that, and getting that guidance from the attorney is so important to be able to do that and, um it, it pays dividends down the road on the case because you've established all that up front and there's no kind of surprises or no, no, uh, cluelessness on my part about how I'm supposed to proceed.
Speaker 1Sure, you, you, you mentioned staying in your lane, and it's something that attorneys mention a lot is that they want an expert witness who is not only an expert in their field, but current in their field. What in your field? What does it mean to be an expert? What does it mean to be currently an expert and on top of developments, because you're in a fairly dynamic field? So how do you stay on top of all of the changes?
Speaker 2Yeah well, so you know, like I, like you said, actually at the top of our. So you know, like I, like you said, actually at the top of our discussion here. You know, I got out of school almost 40 years ago and and we're studying the same subject matter in school. I've never done anything else and that's why my knowledge of it is is so deep, which you know sets me up with this type of work. But it is a science. A lot of people don't think about warehousing as a science, but it is a science and that's a mistake a lot of people make by not thinking it. But you know, things are constantly changing. Technology impacts the mundane practice of running warehouses and distribution centers just as much as it impacts everything else. So, and distribution centers just as much as it impacts everything else. So I you know to be to answer your question to be an expert.
Speaker 2I think part of my responsibility is to stay on top of the trends in the industry. What is changing in the way the practice of warehousing changes over the years? Obviously, that's going to include technologies. We are in the modern era. It's far more high tech with, you know, robotics and things like that, than it was 40 years ago when I got into it. But there's also just different without getting too technical here different ways of practicing.
Speaker 2The act of warehousing is different than it was in those days and it's always changing. People are coming up with new ways to simplify processes and to streamline distribution networks, and new ways to manage labor because labor is one of the biggest costs of warehousing and new ways to optimize floor space and facilities. And if you're not, you know, staying on top of that, you could quickly become kind of a dinosaur in the industry. So for me, what does that look like? I mean, I am constantly reading, you know, newsletters and blogs and video blogs and um, you know, subscribe to all the major trade publications in my industry and seeing what's going on, different articles and um and all of that, so I can make sure that I'm staying on top of what those, what those trends and technologies and practices are.
Speaker 1Let's talk about some initial contracts. So when you make that initial phone call and you have your engagement letter, there's a million ways to write these contracts right. Some people have a non-refundable retainer. Some people like to work on an hourly rate. Some people like to do a contract, you know a project rate. Some people have travel rates or different rates for depending on the exact thing that they're doing at the moment. So how do you like to structure your contracts?
Keys to Successful Attorney-Expert Relationships
Speaker 2Well, I have kind of my typical um. You know I'm flexible in that if, if the attorney that retains me is working under certain constraints and wants to do things a little differently, we can, we can do that. But but in general I'll just kind of use the use the typical Um. So I have a standard litigation support agreement that I typically will use. It comes in a couple of different flavors, I guess you'd say. One is if I'm retained by the attorney, the other is if I'm retained by some third party that might be working with that attorney, such as either the end client or an insurance company. You know something like that, you know. So I have the two different versions of that contract that I use and actually the overall terms are pretty much the same but the fees are a little different, because I've had to learn from experience that when you're retained by the attorney and they tell you they want you to do something, well, they know what they've asked you to do and there's not going to be any question later on why. You know why did Steve do that and bill us for that work.
Speaker 2But sometimes if I'm retained you know, from a contract standpoint retained by some third party like an insurance company and the attorney's over here saying do this, this, this and this?
Speaker 2And I run that direction and then I send the bill and the insurance company's going well, why are we having to pay this bill, you know? Um, so the fees. Because of the hassle factor and the explanation factor and the extra time it kind of takes to deal with all that. I have a slightly different fee structure, so that's why I have two different kind of takes to deal with all that. I have a slightly different fee structure, so that's why I have two different contracts. But you know, sometimes you know I'm retained by a referral service and some referral services have their own contracts that they use and some referral services, you know, will take a commission off of my time, that either the retaining attorney pays the commission or I paid the commission. You know there's all these variations to that and so it's simple in general but it can vary depending on the dynamics of you know who's involved and what the different roles of the different parties are that are involved in retaining me as the expert on the case.
Speaker 1You bring up referral services. Have you found referral services in general to be useful in your practice?
Speaker 2Absolutely. I mean, if I had to guess, probably half or more of the cases that come my way come through these referral services the cases that come my way come by, come through these referral services.
Speaker 1Before we wrap up, do you have any last advice for expert witnesses or attorneys working with expert witnesses and, in particular, uh, newer expert witnesses?
Speaker 2Yeah, I, I think, um, I touched on this a little bit earlier, but, um, one of the things that that maybe I knew it intuitively, but it's really in my head now and that is that, as an expert, you don't have to worry about pleasing Hopefully this won't sound bad to attorneys, but you don't have to worry about leaving an attorney. It's not my role to please an attorney. It's my role to to make the attorney aware of things, maybe things they don't want to hear. But but, um, but, I should be focused on what the truth is, and and you know, there's no expression. Would you rather? Would you rather have me tell you there's no valid expression? Would you rather have me tell you the truth, or would you rather have me tell you what you want to hear? And so you know, hopefully, people make the wise decision there.
Speaker 2So what I often will tell attorneys is look, I can't advocate for your side of the case. It's not my job. You're the advocate, I'm not the advocate. So, so I'm not going to advocate for your side, but if I see something that I that I think exposes your side of this case, then then you know, I will probably try to bring that to your attention. You know, obviously it's going to be the other side's responsibility to come up with the right questions, to ask me if they want that information.
Speaker 2But I mean, you know I can't advocate for you, but you do need to be aware that you know this is an issue that could potentially hurt your side of the case.
Speaker 2You know it's not my job to bring that up, but it is something that you know, you need to be aware of so that for you know, as you're planning in your case strategy here, you need to have a way to address that issue if it comes up, because if I'm asked that question, I'm going to tell the truth about it and again, it may not be what they want to hear, but it's what they need to hear. And so there have been a couple of cases I've literally walked away from, not disrespectfully, but I've had to tell them. You know, disrespectfully, but I've I've had to tell them. You know, look you're, you're trying to get me to say this and I cannot put my career on the line by saying this. You know, if you need me to say this, we're just going to have to part ways, because you know that's, that's simply not not true, um, and I wouldn't want to bank my reputation on that.
Speaker 1Absolutely Sage advice. Mr Hopper, thank you so much for joining me here today. Thank you for having me it was fun, of course, and thank you, as always, to our listeners for joining us for another edition of Engaging Experts Cheers. Thank you for listening to our podcast Engaging Experts. Our show notes are available on our website roundtablegroupcom.