Engaging Experts
After 25 years helping litigators find the right expert witnesses, Round Table Group’s network contains some of the world’s greatest experts. On this podcast, we talk to some of them about what’s new in their field of study and their experience as expert witnesses.
Engaging Experts
Engaging with Electrical Utility Expert, Christopher Larson
What happens when a seasoned electrical utility professional with 35 years of experience decides to leverage his expertise in the courtroom? Christopher Larson, president of Larson Elite and a certified fire and explosion investigator, shares his fascinating journey into expert witnessing in this candid conversation.
The conversation delves into practical matters essential for anyone considering expert witnessing: establishing non-refundable retainers, determining appropriate billing practices, and avoiding potential conflicts of interest.
For professionals with specialized expertise considering the expert witness path, or attorneys seeking to work effectively with technical experts, this episode provides invaluable insights into building a successful practice founded on knowledge, integrity, and clear communication. Subscribe now to hear more conversations with leading experts across diverse fields.
This episode is brought to you by Roundtable Group the experts on experts. We've been connecting attorneys with experts for over 30 years. Find out more at roundtablegroupcom.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Engaging Experts. I'm your host, noah Ballmer, and today I'm excited to welcome Christopher Larson to the show. Now, mr Larson is the president of Larson Elite, a consulting firm for the electrical utility industry. He's a certified fire and explosion investigator and an expert in the technical standards, operational protocols and best practices for the electrical utility industry. Mr Larson, thank you so much for joining me here today on Engaging Experts. Well, I'm glad to be here. Thank you for asking me. Of course, let's jump into it. So you've spent over 35 years in the electric utility construction industry. How did you first become involved in expert witnessing?
Speaker 3:90s I was working, we were working down in the LA area, bellflower area, and the foreman that I was working for he had worked when I was still an apprentice at the time he had worked for another contractor, another company, and he was telling me about that company. He said, but the guy was an electrical engineer. And he says but he makes more money doing expert witness work than he does actually running his business. And I said what? You know? What? What do you mean? He said well, I don't really know that much about it, but they just, you know, every so often they bring these boxes full of paperwork and then, you know, he studies all that stuff, and and so this was, and it's been plaguing me ever since then. And then, um, you know, really, so it's so it's been. However long it is 30 plus years I've been thinking about this, and then, in December 15th of 2023, I'd been with a company.
Speaker 3:I've been so fortunate in my career. I've worked for the nation's largest companies and I was just the last 13 years was a director of safety and training for one of the largest electrical contractors in the country, and a lot of corporate changes took place and we split up the company and so I wound up, you know, I was the director of safety and training and I wound up getting laid off and I'd already hired my replacements before that. So which was? You know it was? Timing was good for me, it was perfect for me, and so I started thinking well, geez, you know I've been. I realized. I sat back and realized when's the last time I actually took any vacation. And it turns out it was like 25 years ago. When I got married, my honeymoon, we took a week off. I've always been in positions where it was hard to leave. So I thought, man, I'm not sure. Am I going to retire? Do I want to, you know, start a consulting business? What do I want to do? And so I, you know. So I kind of went down that road. I eventually decided well, I'm going to start my own business, you know, rather than go back to work for someone.
Speaker 3:And, and it's just, it's just been fantastic. I truly love. You know, I dug into it. I learned all I could about expert witness and for me and my background, this is just, it's exciting work because the forensic part of it right, so I'm dealing with my first case is actually 10 years old, like two months ago. So it's been going on for a long time and you know so they're and they, they just they hadn't, they'd never found an expert witness with my background. So they were all excited to get me and it's been phenomenal because I'm you know, I'm digging through these old accident reports and incidents and what happened and you know all you know the rules that were in play back then and it's just been yeah, I'm just, I'm loving it.
Speaker 2:So you were actively seeking engagements. It didn't just fall out of your lap out of nowhere, like happens a lot of the time. Well, let me ask you this how did you go about finding and establishing yourself as an expert witness, as somebody with obviously the background and the expertise? How did you make that transition into expert witnessing?
Speaker 3:Well, the first thing I had to do is really research. Just what the heck does an expert witness do, right? So that's where I started, and there's one of the things that and I hope people are taking advantage of this but there's so much great information out there. That's free Roundtable has a ton of it. There's so much free information out there and it's so exciting. And even hell, I even watched my cousin Vinny a few times. Because of that, if you're familiar with the movie, I learned a lot about the industry and I was reading everything that I could get and I was just so enthralled with it or excited about it, and so I started looking for more and I actually took a course on, you know, how to be successful as an expert witness. And so I went through the course and I've just been in. I've constantly picking every single day. I'm looking for something new, reading something new. There's just so much. There's great books out there. There's just so much. There's great books out there. There's just there's a ton out there. And I think what's I tell you? I will tell you one of the most interesting things I think about.
Speaker 3:This has been a surprise, because my dealings with attorneys have always been. You know, I used to. I got involved with a lot of legal things when I was a director of safety and training and stuff like that. So my dealings with attorney attorneys have always been a different you know, even worse, I guess, if you had to hire one for some reason. So my dealings attorneys were always a little bit different.
Speaker 3:But what I've found out here is just the there is, at least for what I do there's such a need out there that and it's so. I mean, the average lay person doesn't have any idea what a power alignment does, does, or you know how does a power get from the, from from wherever they make it, to your light switch, to your bedroom and they what I've really loved about this is they treat me with an amazing amount of respect. And uh and I've. I found that to be just really refreshing. And uh and man, I've. I've met some really great attorneys over the course of time. But it's different when they're not out to get you and they need you. So that's been real refreshing.
Speaker 2:Let's talk about those initial phone calls. So the attorney reaches out, says we've got a case with this general fact pattern. We think that you might be able to help us. What are the sorts of questions that they ask you and what are the sorts of questions that you ask them to make sure that it's a good fit? Because it is a two-way vetting process. Both sides are feeling out each other at the start of a new engagement.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, and I remember the first. You know few calls I got. You know, so excited I was, I didn't even. I think one of the most important things you have to ask is how did you find out about me? Right, because marketing is a huge part of what we do. You know there's a, there's a lot to that and I'm forever, every day, learning more and more about that. Anyway, so you know there's a lot of questions that you really have to ask and I have slowed the. I've compiled now a list of the questions that I need to know.
Speaker 3:Like you know, playing it for defense, you know that was a, that was a big one, right off the get-go. I, my first one, I wasn't really sure where, what side was I on, and and and really, for me and for anybody out there that's doing this sort of business, it really doesn't matter to. You know, plaintiff for defense. So you're not out there. You know this isn't your case to try. You were just out there for your expertise and to share your expertise and to educate, to try or facts and jury and the and the attorneys on what's, what should or shouldn't have been done, you know. So that's kind of always been interesting and it's, it's, it's, it's been. I, you know, consciously step aside from that and realize you know, look, this isn't, it's not my case, I'm not trying it, I'm just there to you know just the facts, ma'am, and so I've come up with a lot.
Speaker 3:You know quite a bit, quite a sizable list of questions that I like to ask. You know one, obviously, as I mentioned earlier planning for defense. Where are we in the case? You know one thing that I get in my line of work, personal injury, is a, is a, is a major part of it. So you know, I make sure that I find out. You know I want to find out, okay, what kind of shape is the person in? I mean, could it be a fatality? You know, and I've dealt with those as well. But you know, I want to find out. You know what's the status of the victim? You know, or the person, how. You know what happened there.
Speaker 3:And I think a big part of the feel out is is making most of the attorneys all except for a couple, most of the attorneys that I've spoken with, they're genuine. You know they're not. You know they don't try, and they've never tried, to lead me down. You know some, you know, here's what we're looking for. We're basically saying well, we're looking for somebody to say X, y and Z. I've not had that happen. In fact, for the most part, they'll tell me look, you know, I'm just looking for your opinion. I'm not trying to sway you one way or another, and and I really appreciate that, because that's just. You know, that's what we're here to do is be honest and put our opinion out there, whether it fits their narrative or not. You have a you know, a a responsibility to to put out the truth. So, um, yeah, so that you know, that's one of the things I like to kind of find out where they're, where they're going with that and and actually had a case.
Speaker 3:Uh, they were just looking for my opinion and kind of surprised me, but it was a, it was a personal injury, and the company that contacted me was actually they were trying to find out, it was a contractor, and and and uh contractor and one of their employees got hurt real bad, and they were trying to find out. Well, what they wanted to know is did their employees do the right thing? And after going through a bunch of research, my response was no, they did not do the right thing. As a matter of fact, they were contributors to the incident taking place. So I explained everything and brought up the, brought up the. You know, here's my reasonings why? Here's my opinion on this, this.
Speaker 3:And they even had an expert that was there to talk. It was a decayed pole that fell over, right, it was in the bottom, it was just absolute mush. And they even had a wood expert that was there to testify that, oh yeah, that was, the wood was just fine. Well, you could see it laying on the ground. The inside's completely mush. You can see two or three feet up into the hollow pole. And one thing that we do as a lineman before we climb a pole is we do it's called a hammer test. So you take your hammer out and you pound the bottom of the pole all the way up to really as far as you could reach. It's like hitting a drum, right, you know whether something's hollow or mushy or whatever. It's just that's the first test and then, if it's questionable, then we, the test proceeds from there. And so this. So this wood expert testified oh yeah, that wood is fine. They would have never known that's hollow. But and again, you could clearly see the top of the pole was hollow. The bottom of the pole was hollow where it fell.
Speaker 3:And you know, and the and the attorney there, the, the, actually was an insurance company. I was talking to them. He said, well, the expert said it sounds good. I said, well, you look back at your experts background. So in 1976, when he was in college, he spent two weeks in Minnesota testing poles. But so you know, I've tested thousands of them and had to trust my life to him. So you know there's no way he would really know. Anyways, him and had to trust my life to him. So you know there's no way he would really know.
Speaker 3:Anyways, make a long story short. What I wound up, you know, I wound up telling him not what they wanted to hear and the response I got was well, okay, thank you, we'll keep looking. And you know, and that's that part is, you know, and I understand they, they have a, you know they're trying to get something accomplished as well. But I was worried about, oh man, am I ever going to get paid? But actually, you know, they were one of the best payers I've had. They paid right on time and quickly, so but yeah, that. So that was interesting and I'll tell you another little story with that.
Speaker 3:So I dealt with in my role, my last role as a director of safety and training for major well, actually the largest, the largest, you know, utility contractor in the country, and I dealt a lot over the years with corporate attorneys, corporate counsel, and when I decided to do this I gave him a call just let him know what I'm doing. First question he asked me was he's corporate counsel? Right, he goes. What side are you on, defense or plaintiff? I said, well, I don't care, it doesn't matter to me, I'll go in either. He goes, got real quiet. I go. What's the matter? He goes.
Speaker 3:Well, you know, I can hire somebody you know to, uh, to, to, to, to. You know, tell me that you have, you know, red curly hair, which I know the, the. The listeners won't see this, but I basically have no hair. And I asked him I said you know, hey, mr Caltrill, I said how long have you known me? And he said well, at Columbia. I said have you ever known me to? You know not be anything but truthful. And he goes well, no, I said well, then my answer is it doesn't matter to me. So I thought that was interesting and I haven't really run out to those type. Well, and I haven't really run out to those type.
Speaker 3:Well, I shouldn't say that I have had a couple of cases that I turned down because you know there was this, there was no merit to the case, and you can tell that we're, you know, trying to go for something that didn't have merit and I wasn't going to take. You know, that's, that's you know. Or I've had cases that I've turned down where they're asking me to do something that was not in my wheelhouse. One of them and I'll share this story I was contacted by the plaintiff himself saying that you know he was trying to sue somebody but he said his attorney asked him to, you know, seek out, you know, expert witnesses to support his case and then, you know, asked me if I'd signed a non-disclosure and all that sort of stuff. But the case had nothing, it wasn't in my wheelhouse, right, it was. It had to do with electricity and I absolutely could have taken that case and explained everything away. But it's not, wasn't quite my wheelhouse. No-transcript important in this industry.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. You had talked a little bit about getting paid and how the uh. One of the engagements that you declined uh or that you ended up not going forward with uh was a very quick payer. Do you have any particular items that you like to put into contracts in your engagements? Do you like to, for instance, take a non-refundable retainer? Do you do project rates? Do you have different rates depending on what you're doing? Tell me a little bit about your billing structure.
Speaker 3:Sure, well, I do have a retention agreement agreement and I have, and it's a non-refundable retention agreement, which I bill against, obviously, so they're not paying money for nothing. And I have started and sweated it out. I have started a couple of cases early on without having that retainer agreement in hand, and so you know, it's kind of interesting if you do that and then it gets down to where the attorney is needing something and you just say, well, I can't move forward until I get this court away. It's amazing how, you know, went from never happening to, all of a sudden, you get a special courier standing outside your door handing you a check, you know. So I do have a retainer agreement, non-refundable retainer, and I highly recommend that people do not start work. You know it's one thing to have the initial discussion to make sure that you're a good fit for the case and the attorney, the counsel, thinks you're a fit and you're a fit for it. You know that's obviously going to start, but before you present anything or do any work, I believe in having retainer agreement and not starting until you get that.
Speaker 3:As far as different rates for everything, I look at it as and I also do. You know there's two things I do. I do accident investigation, incident or accident investigation, and I do expert witness services. When I first started I was doing other things actually, like you mentioned, being consulting and stuff so I first, initially, was doing expert witness training and then what I learned from expert witness training is sometimes the attorneys don't like that, that's all you do. They like when you still be engaged in, you know, other activities within your, within your you know, realm, your, your industry, so it doesn't look like you're just some hired gun out there, right?
Speaker 3:so, and all I wanted to do is expert witness. So I started bringing in safety consulting and training, consulting and then, through a long, long series of events, my the crane trainer that I used to have, that worked for me uh, best crane trainer in the entire country actually. Um, he wound up, you know, he wound up giving laid off as well. Like I mentioned, the companies were working for they made a bunch of changes. So he called me up and I thought man, you know, because I had planned on doing crane training certification in my business. So I found out he was laid off, he lives in Vegas. So I jumped on the motorcycle and rode up there the next day and we sat down and hashed everything out. We were going to completely corner the market on crane training.
Speaker 3:And then what it dawned on me. What dawned on me at that point in time is, let's say, you know I live in Southern California. So you know the biggest utility in Southern California is Southern California Edison. So, for an example, let's say, providing crane training for Southern California Edison. And now an expert witness opportunity comes up. You know there's going to be a conflict of interest there. You know the opposing attorney is going to go oh, mr Larson, you're here as a witness, you know, for the SCE or against them either way, but do you not also have business with them, right? So is that you know? So I realized, man, everything else I do is going to be a conflict of interest. So I stopped all that stuff, actually rebranded myself, started my business over, and now all I do is an accident investigation and expert witness services, and those two really go hand in hand. Because, for example, I was involved with a real recent major utility fire in a mall and so I was brought in to investigate that. Well, eventually there's going to be lawsuits that come out of that as well, right, because it was a major mall and they were shut down and you know huge costs incurred. Well, you know where are they going to turn to when they need an expert witness, but you'd go to the person that did the investigation for you. So those two went hand in hand.
Speaker 3:So, and one of the things that I was getting at to answer your question as far as different rates towards things is, I look at it, my time is my time and I. So I charge the same for whatever I do. I don't. It doesn't matter if it's in court, if I'm looking through paperwork, I just have a flat rate and I stick with that flat rate. I do have an overnight rate if I have to fly somewhere and travel and one of the things that I'm not sure what everybody else does.
Speaker 3:But as far as flights and stuff so you're supposed to be there two hours early and you might have layovers and all that sort of stuff and what I do as far as air travel is concerned, I charge a half hour to get to the airport and not the two hours ahead of time. So I'll charge a half hour just to get to the airport and not the two hours ahead of time. So I'll charge a half hour just to get to the airport and then I bill for the stipulated flight time, right? So I'm not charging for the two hours. I have to go there early.
Speaker 3:If there's a layover or something like that, I don't charge for that. I just charge a half hour plus the stipulated flight time, the half hour to get to the airport and a half hour to get from the airport to the hotel, whether that's, even if it's a two hour drive, I just charge a half hour. So it's flat, it's not? You know you don't want to nickel and dime your clients to death with all that sort of stuff, and I get it. It's your time and you know, layovers happen that stuff, but that's not the client's fault. Overs happen that stuff, but that's not the client's fault.
Speaker 2:So I try to keep things very fair with that, you know. Sure, sure, absolutely. Um, let's talk a little bit about a couple of general topics. How do you get off on the right foot? So you've decided to accept an engagement. You had mentioned earlier that, uh, one of the nice things about working with attorneys so far as an expert witness is that they've conferred a lot of respect to you and your career. What are the other aspects of a good initial engagement?
Speaker 3:Well, one thing that you know, I used to do teach a lot of leadership classes across the country and one of the analogies that I've always used is what happens a lot with leadership is they assume that people know what they want right, they don't. They never sit you down. It's where my entire career I've always used is what happens a lot with leadership is they assume that people know what they want right, they don't. They never sit you down. It's where, in my entire career, I've had one foreman sit me down and tell me exactly what he expected. Right, and I remember that today. And you know, when I look, when I, when I was a foreman out in the field of leader, I did that. I'd send him down and tell them exactly what I expected. So there's no. And the analogy that I use is your people can't hit a bullseye if you don't show them where the target is. So I explained that little tidbit to the people and said I want to know what is it? What do you expect from me? What's a bullseye for me to be? You know, a successful expert witness for you, what do you expect from me? And that opens up the door and it lets them clearly tell you, you know, and there's some responsibility on their part that goes along with that. Because if they're, you know, if they tell me, well, yeah, I don't want emails, I want you to call me. If they don't tell me that stuff and they're getting emails, well, you know, I didn't, I didn't know. So I think that's, and I and it really does, I think it, I think it shows you can just feel it. Actually, you know it shows the, your client, that, look, I'm here, we're working, this is, you know, do together, I'm going to do the best I can, but I, but I want to know what you think is the best, what do you expect from me? And that could and it's not happened yet, but I suppose that could that could open up the door to someone and say, well, you know, actually I expect you to say this and to me, well, that was a great question because it just opened up or shown a huge red flag there. You know what I mean, sure, so I think that's what's important and I think, just being people need to. I have to say this is what I think I handle this business at the high level business that it is. You know, I see it's got.
Speaker 3:What I love is when I show up on these Zoom meetings and stuff, you know I'm usually I'm first meeting on any of them. I'm in a sport coat, you know sport jacket. I'm in a. You know I've got a nice shirt on. I don't wear a tie, but most of the time the attorneys are, they're not, you know, they're in their t-shirts and stuff, which is fine. But I look at it. You know, this is this is a.
Speaker 3:We get paid well for what we do, right, and it's high level stuff that that could. You know, some of these cases I've been on cases working multi-millions of dollars and you know. So I think we all need to act accordingly there. You know, don't? I've seen people get on, even attorneys get on these Zoom calls and they're they're driving down the road for one, you know, and they've got their cell phones and you, you know, you get a shot straight up their nose, you know, while they're trying to, and it's just like man, I, that's just so. I think we need, I think, to do this business, at least in my view, learn everything you can about it and be a professional and treat it as the high level business that it is, because it is and it's important that we care ourselves that way, and beginning, as I mentioned earlier, starting with integrity.
Speaker 2:You bring up Zoom and it's true, a lot of actions are happening, even even depositions, even for full trials in some cases, are happening on zoom. Do you find it better, worse or neutral when you are appearing on camera versus showing up to a court or to a deposition?
Speaker 3:I actually really don't find it really really any different. Really, you know, because I think you know, usually the dealings that I've had with the court side of things, they've been well. I shouldn't say that I was dealing with the LA court the other day and it was kind of a little bit hokey setup. But I don't know. I think it's hugely helpful, obviously, to see each other. I mean, that's important and I think it's important that they're able to hear you.
Speaker 3:So, you know, even if you're using your laptop or something as your camera, but you know, they make small little cameras that you could add to make it more better visually, and they make microphones. And you know, I set up my office with a professional studio, you know, and I uh, and and I hear about that right, and it makes you stand out when you're the only one that you know, like you're set up and I'm looking at what you have behind you, you know, and everything it's it's, it's just you could you just ooze professionalism there, like and you know what you're doing. You know and and I think that's something that you know we should be doing as well- Absolutely Earlier.
Speaker 2:you had mentioned that you avoid conflicts of interest by not working as much in the fields that you're consulting on or that you might be an expert witness in. How do you stay current? Are there particular certifications or do you give talks? Do you watch videos? How do you stay current in your field without being involved in, necessarily in areas where you used to be?
Speaker 3:Yeah, great question. So I I still, on occasion, teach, I do, I attend, uh that we have. You know, I'm a, I'm a member of the IBW, the union, so that's where the linemen are. So I stay very much engaged with that. I go to the union meetings, you know, um, I, I, you know, and I have a lot of friends that are in this industry, and not to mention, there's a lot of stuff online.
Speaker 3:You know that you can keep. I mean, it's not hard to find something. You know that some linemen were injured or you know helicopter crash or you know burn, that. That information's out there and you just have to. You need to stay on top of your business. You know it's. You know it's. You know it's changed a lot uh, since.
Speaker 3:You know when, when, when I first started, you know we had today, you know when I first started, we had a crew consisted of four people. We had a digger Derek truck, which was, like you know, a little crane truck. You know that Doug holds and set poles, and we had a flatbed you know a crummy we would call it, and that's all we had for equipment today. I mean we even we had for 10 crews working in the yard, we had one bucket truck that we would have to share, and today's business is totally different. You know, they all, they all have everybody's in a bucket truck. Sometimes there's two on the same crew.
Speaker 3:Um, you know, think about the tools. You know, and I use this analogy a lot, you know. So in my, you know, today, I use this when I'm having conversations like teaching a class and I'll bring apprentices and I'll say you know, the younger generation, you guys don't work near as hard as my generation did and they get mad. You know, you can see that and I do it intentionally. You know they get, they get all kind of twisted up a little bit. You know panties getting a watch and and they look at you like what.
Speaker 3:And I said, well, let's think about it. You know, if you want to drill a hole in a pole so you know you're 50 feet up in the air say whatever, right, and you didn't put a hole in there and I said so. But in my day, you know we would have. We'd bring out a big heavy generator right and run a cord up the pole between the energized conductors, which is, you know, that's scary enough as it is right there and, uh, you know we'd have to do it, and, and I go, but think about that, that that's how we did it, so what you do now is so much easier. Or if you want to cut the pole, you've, you know, you've got a battery wrapper thing to cut a pole, right? Well, we'd have to get the chains off and so on and so forth, and and I go, but think about that, think about the generation before me, the generation before me. They had to use what's called a brace and bit, so they had to drill each hole by cranking like a big egg egg beater to drill that hole through the pole, you know, and they had to cut the poles down with a buck.
Speaker 3:Saw, you know so, so that the industry changes quickly and obviously there's a lot of advancements in my industry, particularly due to fire and things like that.
Speaker 3:You know, because the wildfires and you know you, you with your background from you know, knowing of California, you know that's been a 2018,. You know one of the well, the nation's largest utility filed for bankruptcy in 2018 due to wildfires, and you know, so that's been a big change and that also well, example. That's another thing that is kind of stay abreast of this industry is. I went through the training and became a certified fire and explosion investigator. You know which is which led me to being retained on the LA fires. You know which is which led me to being retained on the LA fires. You know which is, you know, an interesting thing in itself. So I think there's. I think the worst thing that we can do is sit back and not, not stay involved, you know, because we don't care what industry you're in, but particularly, you know, the majority of people are probably medical experts out there and, man, you know, talk about a fast changing industry that you have to stay in tune with.
Speaker 2:You know you had mentioned earlier on, uh, one of the things that you like to ask during a initial phone call is where are we, in this case, right? Because, as you were saying, some of these, some of these actions go out years, decades you know however long uh. Do you feel that you are typically brought in with sufficient time to get everything sorted before you need to return a report, or do you find yourself a little bit under the gun sometimes?
Speaker 3:no, actually I've been pretty fortunate with that, and part of it is because the um, particularly some cases I've had in california that were scheduled for trial, they keep pushing them out. The courts here in this area are still behind. They're still trying to get caught up on all the COVID lawsuits they had to deal with. So they keep, you know, kicking the can down the road if it will. So that's helped out a lot. But I've had I even just recently retained for an incident that they're not even the lawsuits haven't even started yet. But they just wanted, you know, but they're, but they're thinking far enough ahead that they just want to be able to. If they're going to be accused of this, they want to be able to nip it in the butt right from the very beginning.
Speaker 3:So so I would say I've had, I've not really had to rush. There's been a, you know, there's been a couple of times like I'll get sort of a frantic call oh, something just changed. You know we need this, but it hasn't been anything too daunting. And you know I look those are my clients, right? So if I have to pull an all-nighter and stay 24 hours to get something, then I'm going to do that. But it hasn't been that way it's been. It's been pretty, actually some of them.
Speaker 3:I've gotten a little bit wiser and you know, one thing that that I kind of feel bad about is, you know, some, some information comes in and you know I get reams of paper and long files and stuff and I spent all the time learning about it and then next, you know, it's months down the road before you have to. You know I got to go back through and review all the stuff that I did already. So you know I have a case right now, a major one, um and but my report's not due until November and I got the case probably three months ago. So, and I'm just starting to that one now, you know so. So you know I I to answer your question I've had adequate time to prepare for everything at this point.
Speaker 2:As a newer expert witness with a lot of experience, but a new but newer, as an expert witness. What sorts of actions have you been a party to and which actions do you look forward to Well?
Speaker 3:my impression is it's again, it's a little bit different. I guess I'm a little bit I'm not completely green in the legal aspect of things because I had to deal with it so much in my prior roles what you know, it's like you know, one thing that we have to be careful of is, you know, learning a few different things Like, for example, you know, I'm 100% sure that's what happened. Well, you know, what you're now doing is you're saying oh, without a shadow of doubt, even though you weren't there and you came to this conclusion through a series of hypotheses and testing those hypotheses, you use certain terms like well, more likely than not, you know, you know, so you use certain terms like that. So that's been very interesting. Be careful, being careful not to paint yourself in a corner, because you know, if you put out something like that, you say a hundred percent.
Speaker 3:Well, now, all of a sudden, you know an opposing attorney is going to start throwing a bunch of math equations at you. And you know and in fact there's a, there's a really good example of that they were, they were, they were questioning, cross-examining an expert witness and he was talking about you know how. He came up with some calculation and the attorney says well, walk me through how you did that. It was very simple stuff, right? I mean, if you have a basic understanding of math, but he couldn't do it, you know. So he's. Well, I use my computer to do that. When the attorney's like, well, it's fairly simple math, can't you just tell us? You know. So you have to be really careful, I think, on what you say and what you say. Also, you know that it can, and if there's a way to use it against you, they'll do it during cross-examination.
Speaker 3:Another thing that's been, I say, very interesting to me is you know, I like to write. I've written a lot of you know policies over the course of time. I've done, you know you name it and I like to do that. But you know, now, in this role I don't. You know, a lot of times they'll recommend writing papers and things like that. But one thing you have to keep in mind is you know, whatever you put down, it's there forever, right? So if you're making some opinion on something and you know an attorney digs it up and it's 10 years later, I mean, you know, I'm sure, I'm sure you yourself have had opinions that have changed over the course of you know decades of being alive, you know. So you have to be careful with that sort of stuff, you know.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and if you are impeached on something that you once said, maybe it's taken out of context, maybe you have changed your mind. Is that something that you've had to contend with at all yet?
Speaker 3:No, I haven't, because I kind of learned that early on because, well, I contended with it years earlier when making a statement, you know, at a deposition when I was representative of a company, and then having it come back and bite me in the butt and have to you know, fortunately I wasn't BSing anybody, so I was able to prove my point. But if you weren't prepared for that, you just look like then you lose credibility, right, if you can't substantiate the statements that you're making or, you know, support their hypotheses, your opinions, you just look like, you know, you just lost all credibility with the jury. And I haven't had to deal with that. And you asked about one of the things that I'm looking forward to Now I'm still I've not had to go to court yet and I really, really want to. And you know, I know that probably scares a lot of people, but I'm excited for that. And the reason for me it's exciting is because, you know, I've been.
Speaker 3:I started training apprentices, line apprentice stuff, trained thousands of them over my career apprentices and journeyman linemen and stuff, and uh, and it's a very complex subject, you know, electricity, right, it's invisible but it can kill you, and there's so many. How does all this stuff work? And it's very confusing because you can't physically see anything. So I found ways over the course of time training apprentices and people to help them see very complex subjects in a simplified manner. So I'm really looking for I've got all kinds of demonstrable things here that I really want to apply and, uh, I just haven't had the opportunity yet.
Speaker 2:So what are some of the techniques that you use when you're, when you're teaching or explaining to an attorney some of these complex subjects, uh, you know to, to be able to get it across to a lay person in a way that's useful?
Speaker 3:Well, one of the things I'm really excited to do is I have what's called a Tesla coil and essentially it's a coil that's energized and if you bring a ground close enough to it it'll make an arc right. So I'm in a case where, basically, someone was supposed to, they were doing work they shouldn't have been doing anyways they were. They were injured. But I now had the ability to take the exact piece of equipment that they were using and attach it to the ground and move it close enough to that Tesla coil to show that the arc took place. Now, granted, it's just a little you know buzz of an arc that that I'm bringing versus the you know the huge explosion that took place with the high voltage stuff.
Speaker 3:But another thing, too, is you know there's certain things in my trade that you can do with rubber gloves on and there's certain things that you cannot do with rubber gloves on. And in this case, the operation they did, they were using the wrong method. So you know, for example, I'm able to to bring in the actual tool and and describe. You know, this is what was supposed to be used and this is what they did. So just just things that you know without, without having my background, there's no way you'd know that you know so. So that's what I'm, and I just haven't. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to apply that yet, but I but I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker 2:Absolutely fascinating stuff. Before we wrap up, do you have any last advice that you care to share with other expert witnesses or attorneys who are working with experts?
Speaker 3:I guess the advice that I would share is open communication, when I think we need to find out how people prefer to communicate, because some people like a text message, some people like email, some people just want phone calls. You know, I'm old school. I like to use phone calls because you know you can. You get more out of it that way. So ask a lot of questions, ask how you can be you know, what do they expect of you, right? I think that's one of the biggest things. That advice is one be professional and and and ask them. You know, hey, man, show me the target. What's the bullseye? Look like you know and communicate with the people, and and that includes everything, even like billing. You know, I've I've found that some people like very detailed billing. Some people want almost nothing there.
Speaker 3:So you need to find out what you know. You need to find out what's expected of you. I think if you want to be successful, that's probably the you know. Learn everything you can. There's a tremendous. If you're not learning, that's on you. There's so much stuff out there and so much is free, you know. So that'd be, I think, my biggest thing Find out what you know, find out what the target is. What do they expect from you. What's the target? What's the target? What's the bullseye look like? And then go from there and just do the best you can and just maintain your integrity through it all, setting expectations, sage advice.
Speaker 2:Mr Larson, thank you so much for joining me here today. It was my pleasure. I really appreciate it. I had fun, absolutely. And thank you, as always, to our listeners for joining us for another edition of Engaging Experts, for joining us for another edition of Engaging Experts Cheers.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to our podcast Engaging Experts. Our show notes are available on our website roundtablegroupcom.