Engaging Experts
After 25 years helping litigators find the right expert witnesses, Round Table Group’s network contains some of the world’s greatest experts. On this podcast, we talk to some of them about what’s new in their field of study and their experience as expert witnesses.
Engaging Experts
Engaging with Dog Expert, Jill Kessler-Miller
The courtroom can be an intimidating place for anyone—but when Jill Kessler-Miller walks in, she brings 30 years of dog expertise and an uncanny ability to decode what canines are really telling us. As she puts it with refreshing candor, "If I'm an advocate, it's for the dog."
Kessler-Miller's journey from dog trainer to sought-after expert witness began with a simple suggestion from an attorney friend. Today, she navigates cases ranging from dog bites to fatalities, service dog evaluations to animal cruelty investigations. What sets her approach apart is her focus on the dogs themselves. While humans craft narratives after incidents occur, the dogs' behavior reveals the truth—if you know how to interpret it.
The deposition process requires careful preparation and emotional discipline. Kessler-Miller shares practical wisdom gained from countless testimonies: bring multiple document copies, maintain composure despite provocations, and remember to "don't speculate, only answer questions asked, and shut up." She even offers an unexpected pro tip: a roll of pink duct tape makes the perfect spill-proof coffee holder during lengthy proceedings.
For those considering expert witness work, Kessler-Miller offers sage advice: develop emotional resilience, remember criticism isn't personal, and maintain neutrality rather than advocacy. As she reminds us, the most powerful testimony comes not from pushing an agenda but from clearly explaining what happened and why—letting juries draw their own conclusions from properly interpreted evidence.
Ready to explore how expert witnesses can transform your case? Connect with professionals who bring both expertise and integrity to the courtroom through Roundtable Group's extensive network.
This episode is brought to you by Roundtable Group the experts on experts. We've been connecting attorneys with experts for over 30 years. Find out more at roundtablegroupcom.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Engaging Experts. I'm your host, noah Balmer, and today I'm excited to welcome Jill Kessler-Miller to the show Now. Ms Kessler-M Miller is a certified dog trainer with over 30 years of experience and a chief tester for the American Temperament Test Society. She's a sought after expert witness with experience ranging from veterinary forensics to dog service evaluations and a lot more. Ms Kessler Miller holds a master's degree from San Jose State University in Justice Studies. Ms Kessler-Miller, thank you so much for joining me here today on Engaging Experts.
Speaker 3:Hello, I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 2:Let's jump into it. So you've been training dogs since at least the mid-1980s. How did you first become involved in expert witnessing?
Speaker 3:I have a very good friend who was at that time an attorney and who now works for the FBI, by the way and she was at my house and I was busy raising children and I didn't really have time to do full-time training anymore. And she said, well, why don't you just do expert work? And I said, what's that? And she told me about it and I thought, well, that could really work for me. And so that's literally how it started. And I actually, well, that could really work for me. And so that's literally how it started. And I actually started with the Los Angeles Superior Court System. They have a list of experts that are available to the public defenders and I reached out to a couple of referral agencies and I just kind of started. It was a whole new world that I came to really enjoy, because each case is its own puzzle and I like that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:Let's talk about some of those initial phone calls that you get. So somebody comes in they say I need a dog expert. Can you help me with this case? Tell me a little bit about how that phone call goes. What are the vetting questions? What are they asking you and what are the sorts of questions? What are they asking you and what are the sorts of questions that you want to ask them to make sure that it's going to be a efficient and productive engagement?
Speaker 3:That's a really good question. I do many types of topics in dogs, so it could be service dog evaluations, could be animal cruelty, especially with the public defender's office. The bread and butter of this work is dog bites, you know, and that could be anything from a simple bite to a fatality, of which I've done several now, which, by the way, those are interesting. And then, of course, you know, there could be detection dog practices with law enforcement. There could be evaluations of behavior, rescue dogs, rescue contracts, dogs that are problematic. I was on a big case against the city of Los Angeles when a volunteer got very badly mauled.
Speaker 3:So the first thing I say is believe it or not? Is well, tell me about your case and I let them tell me the bare bones of it. But then I started asking questions and so I'll say do you know what kind of dog it is? Do you know how old? Where was it from?
Speaker 3:Now I want to be very clear that dog breed is not necessarily predictive, but it can be informative. It might inform like hmm, yes, a herding dog does run in circles, it's what they do. And so I'll ask that, I'll ask age of the victims and what those circumstances were, and then I kind of take it from there. One of the things that I always am very careful about, though, is sometimes it's a case that needs a veterinarian I am not a veterinarian. Sometimes it's a case that needs a veterinarian I am not a veterinarian, and when I say, hmm, sounds like you need a vet, I have two people that I refer I'm very careful, as I'm sure your other experts are, to stay in my lane and do a good job there, and they also, by the way, when they have something that's really training behavior. They're like call Jill, so it can and it does work both ways.
Speaker 2:So you, you uh realize that you are the appropriate type of expert for this engagement and, uh, you're on the same page. Tell me a little bit about your contracts. Do you like to take a non-refundable retainer? Do you do different billing rates depending on the type of job that it is? Tell me a little bit about how you go about doing your billing.
Speaker 3:Well, there's another good question. You're really impressing me here. So I do a six-hour non-refundable retainer and right now my rate is $500 an hour. My husband is telling me I need to raise it. 500 an hour. My husband is telling me I need to raise it.
Speaker 3:I will do a few cases a year for free. I try to like, if it's something that's small two to four hours perhaps, or a simple report I will often volunteer some free services because I really do believe in sharing what I have with people who perhaps can't afford something, especially if they're being sued and they don't have an attorney or things like that. I do a lot of consults for the public defenders that I don't charge for because I know they don't have a lot of budget and a lot of times, especially in the public defender's office, they don't know what they have in front of them. So I can kind of say here's what you've got, this is what the evidence says. I know what your client told you. That's not what it is and they really appreciate that. And again, it's just a way of giving back to our lovely state. If I have a case somewhere, for instance in a state that is not, shall we say, as lucrative as California.
Speaker 3:I am certainly open and amenable to lowering my rate if I feel it's the right thing to do. I don't really like negotiating my rate. I know how much heart and time I put in In fact. Again my husband's mad at me. I tend to underbill rather than pad my bill. Again my husband's mad at me. I tend to underbill rather than pad my bill. Um and but. Again, if I can be of good service, that is as important to me as the paycheck itself. Does that answer the question?
Speaker 2:It absolutely answers the question. So let's talk a little bit about, uh, setting those expectations. So you have a billing, you have your billing set up. You know that you are in your correct proverbial lane to to go ahead and take the case in terms of timing and what sort of a report that they want, and am I going to be in a deposition? Is there going to be travel? What about those sorts of expectations? What are the sorts of things that you need to make sure that you're on the same page as the attorney with to get started?
Speaker 3:So I don't travel a ton. I mean I travel a little bit, especially if they needed a dog evaluation. But you might be actually you probably won't be surprised Many of the dogs are dead by the time they call me. They may have been euthanized, they may have been older dogs, the dog may have quote disappeared, been given away, taken to a shelter. So I don't always have the opportunity to evaluate a dog. I'm also a little 50-50 on it, to be honest with you, because a lot of these cases could be anywhere from two to five or even more years later, and so who the dog was at two years old is not necessarily the same dog at seven years old. And maybe in the interim they've done training or, like I have a case right now, or maybe they neutered the dog and he's not as he was. So things can change. So again, it just kind of depends on that.
Speaker 3:I live in Santa Cruz. I'm a 45-minute flight down to LA. The majority of my cases are in Southern California, mostly Los Angeles, definitely some in Orange County, definitely some out in the Inland Empire area. I'm getting more up here as well. So I travel as needed. But ever since COVID, as you know, I can now do my depositions by Zoom. I love this.
Speaker 2:Rather than me getting on a 6 am flight and getting home at 8 pm, I just come into my office. Of course, let's talk a little bit about depositions. This is something that I'd like to get into a little bit more with my guests are the mechanical process of a deposition. So let's compare an in-person deposition to a Zoom deposition. You walk into the door on an in-person deposition. What sorts of forums are they? Do you show up in a hotel room? Is it at the attorney's office? What are the sorts of places that a deposition might occur?
Speaker 3:Well, in the past it was usually at one of the attorney's offices, in a conference room normally, and there are services in Los Angeles that people go there just for depositions and they are supplied with the Wi-Fi, the room and I think, even the court reporters and snacks, which are very important to me. But now it's not very common for me to actually have to travel for deposition anymore. I know that you can also do court testimony by Zoom, but in court I prefer to be in person. I need to feel like I'm engaging a jury and I can see the attorneys. For me it's just a better format.
Speaker 2:Sure, and I want to get into that kind of demeanor shift between in person and Zoom. But first could you walk me through the process, step by step, of a deposition. So you walk in the door, what's the first thing that happens? Do you greet the attorney? Do you talk to the other side? Do you find your chair? Tell me how it works, just kind of step-by-step.
Speaker 3:So it's really important to remember I'm a very friendly person and I'm very open and warm, which serves me well and sometimes works against me. But so I usually walk in and I say, hello, I'm Jill, your dog expert, and I make a big announcement. I it's funny, I actually think it's why I do well with dogs, cause I kind of bring a lot of weight, you know, and dogs are like, oh, she's here. I usually say, uh, you know hello. And then I will. If the court, uh reporter is there, I'll say where would you like for me to sit?
Speaker 3:If it's being videoed, then I will confer with her and the videographer so that I'm sitting in the best place, because I have tendencies for headaches, I try not to sit in direct sunlight so I don't get a headache. I make sure when I'm next to the videographer I give a card so that in case they need to contact me, here I am. And then I ask the other attorneys do you need my contact info? Sometimes they want it and sometimes they don't, and then I sit down and I will arrange my things. So, for instance, I will have brought a copy of my W-9. I will have brought a couple copies of my CV, a couple copies of my list of testimony. Do they have it as PDFs? Sure, but guess what? If you have it right there, you don't have to futz around. And it also says hey, I came in here ready today and I have my files and I have my notes, and I've even gone in and I've said hey, I know you have the file with all my emails. There was another email last night. Here's a printout.
Speaker 3:And so for me, it's very important to be as upfront as possible. I don't hide anything in my personal or my professional life. I am the queen of TMI. But it is appreciated because everything is there. Oh, you can't find your exhibit? I have it here you go, here's a copy for you. So I come in with at least two or three copies of everything. Worst case scenario is I've killed a tree, but what it says, I think, is I am prepared and I'm also willing to help you, even though you are supposedly opposing me.
Speaker 3:One of the traits that I struggle with in my work is I am not adversarial by nature. I am a worker, I am cooperative, and so I frustrate attorneys, both good and bad, because I am willing to work with you, even if you are questioning me. So I come prepared, I'm, I sit down, I set out all my files. You need something. I have it. I read over a note that I bring to my every deposition. It's actually taped to my printer and it says don't speculate, only answer the questions you've been asked and shut up. That's for me, because I tend to talk too much and I end up offering more information that is wanted or needed. So those are my reminders that to to do those things. I also will give you a great little hint. If you like to drink coffee or beverages, a roll of duct tape is perfect for holding any beverage and it won't tip over. So I have a roll of pink duct tape that's about halfway used and I stick my cup in there and then I don't have to worry about it falling over.
Speaker 3:That's a big tip I got that from a court reporter.
Speaker 2:I love that. So you're all set up, You've got everything organized, you've exchanged pleasantries and you've got your beverage in your roll of pink duct tape. So then what's the next thing that happens for the expert witness during the deposition?
Speaker 3:So then of course you're sworn in by the court reporter and then they begin the opposing attorney of whoever hired you will introduce. All the attorneys will introduce themselves to be on record. It will be recorded if it's being videoed or not and then they will go through. I think it's called the admonitions. They're giving you your instructions Because I've done enough depositions, a court testimony. They ask are you comfortable skipping the admonitions? And I say yes, admonitions are don't guess. You can estimate, but don't guess. Have you taken anything that bars you from keep giving your best testimony? You know, have you ever been convicted of a felony? No, by the way, things like that. So there's the admonitions. Then there's usually I give my full name. They might ask for my address, my birth date.
Speaker 3:It's really funny to me. That doesn't bother me, but there was an expert who fought the attorneys on giving his age and it was almost comical. I'm kind of glad now because that was about five, six years ago. I know how old he is anyway, but when you're in the deposition you are their hanging piece of meat. You need to just answer the questions. I think that one of the most important things that I see some experts not doing is just staying calm and answering the questions. It's the job of the attorneys to rile you up. That's their job. They're trying to see how sensitive you are and if you allow it right only with your own permission then they will. So stay calm and answer the question.
Speaker 3:The one thing that I struggle with, again, because I love to talk and I tend to think quickly, for better or worse, again you want to let the attorney give their question and then take a beat 1001, because there's always a chance that one of the other attorneys in the room is going to object and then they have to state their reasons. So if you get into this quickly, going back and forth, it doesn't give them time to make their objections and then the court reporter gets mad at you because now you're speaking over each other. I'm usually very good about this for the first hour or so and then I start to slide and I often like to sit next to the court reporter and I also say to them listen, if I start doing that, all you have to do is touch my wrist or my hand, or the other thing that I do is I start speaking too quickly. Just give me a little touch and I will slow down.
Speaker 3:So you have to be very mindful for the court reporter that you are not speaking over the other attorneys, that you're pausing to allow the attorneys present to make their objections, and also, if you have language in your expertise that may not be part of the general lexicon, you might want to turn and spell it for the court reporter. For example, I did a dog sport called Schutzhand, which is a German word for protection dog, and I always would stop and spell it out. So if you have something that's a little arcane or very long, take a moment, spell it out for the court reporter. It's always appreciated.
Speaker 2:Okay, so, and how long do these typically go? I've heard some horror stories of depositions going full days, for multiple days. I've heard of not sufficient breaks or food. So tell me about how long is a typical deposition in your field?
Speaker 3:So I want to start with you know it's not a contest of how long everyone can go without a break, and every expert has every right at any time to say I need a break. And that might be for food or water, or for me it's usually corralling a barking dog, because my dogs are like toddlers and the moment I'm on the phone or in a deposition they're going to run in and out and bark and things like that. So always remember you have the right to say I need a break. Having said that, every attorney will want to either finish a question and have you answer it you can't ask for the break after a question, you only get the break after you've answered it or they might want to finish a particular topic as well. So just always keep that in mind.
Speaker 3:If you're new to depositions, it's not like the old S training where you had to sit there all day of man. I just totally aged myself with that one. Be always be willing and able to ask for your breaks. I've had them as short as an hour and sometimes they are what I call fishing expeditions. They're just trying to feel out how are you going to come across in court Like, will the jury love you, will the jury hate you? Can you speak well? Can you articulate yourself? Are your ideas acceptable? Blah, blah, blah. It's because usually by then not always, but usually you've already submitted a report.
Speaker 3:They already know what you think, right sure right, um, and then, although the other last week I was told it would only be an hour to an hour and a half and it turned into almost five hours, so that does happen, but I would say most of them are between two and four hours. The dog work is interesting. It's what I would call a soft science. We have a lot of science as far as learning theory and behavior in people and animals, but really good trainers, we still have a feel, right, like that's where the softness comes in. I can't explain it to you. Noah, the dogs tell me stuff. I don't mean to sound voodoo, woohoo, but they just do. They tell me with their expression and their body language and their vocalization and their approach or their uh, their receding. I just they tell me who they are. But I have to be able to back up what I see with the science, right?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:And, by the way, I tell a lot of trainers you think you want to do this work but you don't, and we can talk about that because the work and I'm sure this is true for every expert it's so stressful. The work is very, very stressful, but it's a soft science, so sometimes they want more hard research and sometimes they're just feeling you out.
Speaker 2:So you had mentioned sometimes you have to corral the dogs because they're barking. Obviously that would be in the case of a remote deposition. How else are remote depositions different? It sounds like you prefer them, that it's mostly for the better.
Speaker 3:Well, in an in-person deposition I can make eye contact and have some feedback from the attorneys. You know, facially, just that vibe in the room. I also have to dress up, sure, you know, I have to like put on what I call my clothes, and I put on my makeup and brush my hair. Well, the great thing, though, about the remote is I still put on my makeup and brush my hair and I put on a nice top, but chances are pretty good I got shorts on on the bottom, especially if it's summer. But it is kind of nice to go in because everyone is there for a professional reason and it definitely has a more professional feel. The remotes tend to be a little bit more casual in feel. So, again, I have to be careful that I don't slide into conversation versus deposing testimony.
Speaker 2:So you had mentioned that, in contrast to depositions, you prefer an in-person trial.
Speaker 3:Well, I'm going to sound really conceited when I say it, so I'm just going to own up to it right now. Right, I am a friendly person. I really like people, I am not afraid to speak in front of crowds and so it's kind of a captive audience for me, right, and I love sharing dog knowledge, like I love talking about dogs, I love talking about dog breeds, I love talking about training and behavior. I love talking about what happened and why it happened, like what happened before the incident and why it caused the incident. For me it's not personal, it's just interesting, and I find that people they catch my interest, they catch my enthusiasm. I also tend to and I really try not to make jokes, but sometimes I do. They don't go over well in court. I can't recommend it. I try to catch myself, but sometimes I can't help myself. I actually had a court case, um, where someone got very badly mauled on his leg and the opposing attorney was saying but you agree that that prior to this incident the dog had never jumped out of the truck? And I said yes, until he did, and you're not really supposed to say it like that, and everyone the whole I mean everyone burst into laughter because I'm like, because I was like, yeah, until he did, and then I went, oh my God, I said I'm so sorry, and even he was kind of laughing because that's the thing, it's dogs, right, like they're dogs, they're not machines, and it's like, yeah, he hadn't until that day. So I enjoy the give and take and the connection to a jury.
Speaker 3:I had another case. When I left, I happened to be there at the end and I was in the elevator when the jury came in. I said then don't talk to me. You know, don't talk to me and they go. We can talk to you if it's not about the case. I said, all right, and then all of a sudden, someone in the back goes you were the most interesting, I really enjoyed it and I was like sh Noah, I don't blame the dogs because they're dogs.
Speaker 3:I do, however, blame the people. We are their custodians, we are the I don't want to say guardians, but we are the ones who control what happens. And so I'm very clear I don't blame the dogs, and you'd be surprised how often these are not even aggressive dogs. They were dogs put in a bad situation and a no-win situation. It's not. I don't think it's my job to give you an opinion, so much as let me tell you what happened, what it meant with a jury, so that you can decide. You know, cause that's their job, right Like. Their job is to make their decision, and that's how I, and that's how I look at it. I don't, I don't think I'm the be all and end all. I'm here to give you information that I hope you can use to come into your best verdicts.
Speaker 2:How do you stay on top of your field? This is something I ask all experts. We go to seminars, I read books, I give talks, I watch the news. What are the sorts of things that a dog expert does to stay abreast of their field?
Speaker 3:So I got to tell you I did stop watching the news recently. Well, as a certified trainer, I have to have a minimum of 36 continuing education units every three years.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:I'm also a nose work instructor, which means I also have to do the same number of units every three years. The good news is some of the seminars that I do both offer units to the two different organizations. I read a ton of research. I read some research every single day, mostly because I'm a nerd, but also because I actually really enjoy it. I really like staying on top of what's going on and sometimes I even reread something and I get something new out of it. So I do seminars, I also do webinars, I go to conferences, I read research. I actually still train myself. I not only teach and judge. I judge CentWord for the American Counter Club and I will be putting in my judges application for judging Rottweilers hopefully by the end of the year. But I also still train and compete with my own dog. So I'm at both ends of the leash right and there's nothing, by the way, more humbling than your dog. They will always humiliate you. It's just the greatest thing about them. So I have to stay current as a trainer, as a competitor, as a judge, as an expert. I also love it. I love breed history. I read it for fun. I'm just fascinated by it. So, yeah, I spend time every day staying current.
Speaker 3:Do you find yourself working both for the plaintiff and defendant side? Yes, I do. Yes, I do A lot of times again, depending on what's going on in the case with the defendant. A lot of times, especially with the public defenders. I'm just explaining to them what happened so that the attorneys can understand and hopefully either make a plea deal if it's animal cruelty and if it's a liability. I want them to understand what happened so that they can go in and get it settled. Hopefully.
Speaker 3:I am not going to change my opinion. You know, I always say I'm not an advocate, I am a neutral party. I'm just here for the information. I am definitely not. If I'm an advocate, it's for the dog. How's that? I always think I don't really care about the people as much, but I, because who else is speaking for the dog? No one. Everyone else is making up their stories after the fact, but the dog, no one. Everyone else is making up their stories after the fact, but the dog tells me. And what's interesting is I was thinking about this this week I have a case with a lot of he said, she said, and that's fine. You know, again, it's not personal, but what I do is I look at what happened with the dog and I look at the dog's behavior, what happened, and that's what informs me who's telling the truth. Does that make sense? So I am not believing only the defendant and I am not believing only the plaintiff. We're humans. Our brains do a lot of funny things, it's okay. But dogs, what they've done in the past and even what they're doing now, it will inform me what happened. So if I'm an advocate, it's for the dog, not for the people.
Speaker 3:The defense cases can be difficult and, like I said, I am not their advocate. Every once in a while there's a case where I'll say wait, hold on a second, that's not what happened, because X, y and Z with the dog and those are kind of neat. I actually, several years ago, was part of a of a case where a young man had been convicted of of murder and the dog evidence was garbage and some of the other stuff that I was not involved in, was out of my lane, was also not good. So I was actually part of a team that had his verdict overturned and he got to leave prison. That's a big deal. That's a big deal when someone has been falsely imprisoned and you overturn that and he got to go home to his family. That's something I carry in my heart, that I was helpful and, by the way, it was garbage dog work. It was garbage dog work. Even the judge was like. This is terrible.
Speaker 3:But, someone has to be willing to speak against law enforcement, and it's scary. Let me tell you, of all the things that I testify about, speaking against law enforcement is by far the most frightening, because I wasn't raised like that. I've never had those experience with the police. I was raised to love the police and respect them, which I still do. But when I see garbage work and I have to go and testify about it, I'm scared. I'm not going to lie about that. It's scary for me.
Speaker 2:That brings me. You know. That segues into my next question, which is why, in general, are expert witnesses important.
Speaker 3:Well, obviously we all don't know what we don't know. No one knows everything. It's just literally not possible, although I'm starting to think maybe Neil Tyson DeG. No one knows everything. It's just literally not possible, although I'm starting to think maybe Neil Tyson DeGrasse might know everything. I love him, yeah, okay. Having said that, juries which are picked from among our peers are each going to have their own special knowledge which may or may not apply, so it's our job to come in with often very technical information. I can't imagine being on a jury, for instance, with anything with a lot of math. My eyes would just roll back into my head. But you come in with very technical information that you have to be able to distill down into important and yet accessible nuggets. You know, like, why is using the electric collar wrong? Because we know causing pain is wrong to a sentient being as well as it is counterproductive to learning period. I don't need to get into all of everything else.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 3:So I do think it's important and, as you know, for example, in our criminal justice system prosecutors they have bigger budgets. They generally have less caseload, their number of caseload. They have more support, they have police, they have veterinarians, they have the entire criminal justice system, all the arms at their beck and call and, quite frankly, they are already biased, down to the coroner that works out of the sheriff's department. They are already biased against a defendant. And my experience with most public excuse me, not that news but the prosecutors is that they are so aggressive and they are so I don't I'm going to use the word pompous. They approach everything like it's the Holy grail. I mean, I have been attacked in court by prosecutors that literally I leaned back and I actually on two occasions have had to say to a judge your Honor, I am uncomfortable with this approach and he has held me up each time. So with the criminal, the public defenders, they don't have the budgets, they have caseloads that you cannot believe and they're expected to do a good job. So if I see something where I can help the average person who does not have my knowledge, and I have to say, particularly in the public defenders, these are people without resources. They don't have education. A lot of them never even got out of high school. They don't have money, they don't have resources. So someone with financial wealth can hire the private attorney who's going to get everything dismissed because maybe the evidence is garbage and it got screwed up. But with the public defenders they don't have this and the people are. They're lost. They're lost in the system. I still remember a case that I had many years ago and it broke my heart. Let me distill it down.
Speaker 3:A woman who actually chose to live in her car so she didn't have to give her dog back to a shelter. She had taken the dog to a shelter. It was very nasty, unplaceable, and they called her and said you either come back and get your dog or we're going to euthanize it. So she left the shelter to live in her car and went and got the dog. She got a day, half a day, gig cleaning a house and left the dog in the car and it died because of the heat. When she had picked up the dog, they had given her some antibiotics because the dog got sick with kennel cough while it was at the public shelter. And they pull her and they cuff her and arrest her for animal cruelty and she's crying. I gave him his pills. I don't know what happened. I gave him his pills. She had no idea that being in the hot car would kill the dog she had. No, she wasn't doing it on purpose. She had no idea and all she could think was but I was giving him his pills.
Speaker 3:So she was being prosecuted for animal cruelty. I'm not saying it wasn't an animal cruelty. What I'm saying is she did not have the intent which is part of that law intent to commit animal cruelty. And it's cases like that that I mean. She had nothing. Like I said, she had nothing and I just feel it's important to help. I'm a white woman with education and privilege. I must help. I could go on with some other cases, but that's when that came to mind and that's where I do get my satisfaction, because I don't believe putting someone like that in prison serves anything. I think educating them about care or helping them get back on their feet so that when they do have another pet they know how to care for it, that serves people better. So I love what I do. It's very stressful. It often gives me a migraine, especially for the fatality cases that one always does. But if you are thin skinned, you will not make it in this profession you will not make it in this profession.
Speaker 2:Let's shift gears for a moment. I want to ask you about going back to depositions and trials. Do you have a pre-trial routine that works for you? I've had experts who like to do yoga, or they like to fast, or they like to listen to specific music or anything like that. Do you prepare or get ready in any specific way for a contentious day?
Speaker 3:That's a great question. I you know I don't think so, because I usually have to fly to wherever I'm going. The one thing I have found, though, again as a migraine sufferer altitude and pressure changes even with storms is a trigger for me. So for me to get up very early in the morning and fly down and do it and then fly home, I'm usually pretty sick by that night. So I have found and I don't know if it's a ritual my very best friend from my UCLA days lives in West LA, and so I will often fly down the day before and spend time with her and get a good night's sleep beforehand, so that I don't feel exhausted and haggard when I show up to court, and so I think for me that has helped. Like when I was in Bakersfield, I went the night before, I had a nice light meal and I got to sleep. For me, sleep is probably my ritual. Yeah, I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't take gummies, I don't do anything, so got none of that.
Speaker 2:So sometimes when expert witnesses are brought on, they end up as part of a larger trial team. There might be other attorneys, there might be other expert witnesses, paralegals, assistants, et cetera. To what extent do you work with these other parties to the action?
Speaker 3:So I don't work with other experts, which I would probably actually really enjoy. On one of the fatality cases that I did, I did work a little bit with the pathologist because I found there was patterns from the teeth, marks on the skull, but in general I'm kind of on my own. To be honest with you, I do. I would say let me think for a second. I would say most of the cases that I worked there was not an opposing expert on the other side, for better or worse. Again, an opposing expert on the other side, for better or worse. Again, when I first started doing this 20 years ago, there were only two main dog experts here in California and they pretty much had most of the United States wrapped up and they were mean. They're still mean, by the way, but they were so mean.
Speaker 3:I and I admit to being completely naive I thought, oh, this is great, we're going to get together and examine evidence or look at dogs and we're going to come to an opinion together. I actually thought that because to me that just makes sense, right, like let's talk about what we think. Well, it turns out you don't do that, but I ended up getting attacked like at a personal basis for the first several years. It was a wake up call to being on the opposite side and a lot of times in those cases they were the plaintiff's experts and I was on the defense just trying to say well, here's what I think happened.
Speaker 3:Because of this, by the way, it has been very important to me to help other experts. Now, most of the other experts that I've been helping in dogs have been women and have been other trainers that have moved into behavior work and have gotten older and they're interested in what I want to do and what I do and it's been important to me to help them. So I will say to them tell me about your case. Okay, let me read your report, let me make edits, let me tell you why you don't want to say this or why we're going to say it like that. Let me read your resume, because I don't want them to have the experience that I had, which was basically, oh, you're down, let me kick you. They were, they were not nice, and I just don't believe that that's necessary.
Speaker 2:How do you recommend that expert witnesses, particularly newer expert witnesses, deal with those situations? When they find them, they get started and it's like, wow, everyone's kind of cruel sometimes. So how do you, how do you develop that thicker skin? How do you uh, you know, get into the right headspace where you can handle those sorts of eventualities?
Speaker 3:So I'm lucky in that I've been in Rottweilers for almost 40 years and you will not make it in my breed if you are thin-skinned. So I have to say, having been through like everyone I'm not saying I'm special, but having gone through some emotional trauma it was therapy that taught me to think like a third person that it's not personal, A lot of this stuff is not personal and to really remember that people mostly react out of fear. Very few people act out of love. Most people act out of fear, Fear that you're taking away some of their business, Fear that you might be actually better at what they do, Fear that they're maybe not relevant anymore, whatever their fears are. So therapy for me was very important and I have to say, when I have a very, very stressful case, I either go in for a tune-up, which is not unusual for me or I actually will talk to myself like a third person. You know, like Jill, what do you? What do you think is going, is going on here, and I try to answer it almost like an advice columnist, just like giving myself advice, and that has been helpful and I also have.
Speaker 3:My husband is a business guy and he's he's like most men. It's not personal. You know he's like well, you're taking their business, Jill, oh, you spanked him again in court. Good for you, and that really helps me to have someone. And also, if I want to come home and cry, I can.
Speaker 3:If I have a migraine, all right, then where's my check? And I've been learning that. How do I process it? And so you have to know your own process, and you have to. You just have to know it's not personal. And this is where a lot of trainers I think will fail in this work is that they either think they have to be an advocate or they become emotionally involved. And in at least my case, work I often don't know the outcome. I certainly don't know what kind of financial settlements are made. You have to be comfortable with not knowing what happens. You have to be comfortable with maybe it was crappy, Maybe it was a bad outcome. I actually have a case in Florida that had a bad outcome and again, not about you. You just have to do your best job and go in and do it.
Speaker 2:Before we wrap up, do you have any last advice for expert witnesses or attorneys that are working with experts?
Speaker 3:You know, I do have a request of attorneys. Every once in a while I get an attorney who holds back evidence and then I get a surprise, either in court or deposition. I don't like surprises. I need to see everything and I have learned to specifically ask please send me everything If I don't need it, I won't waste my time on it and I won't waste their money. But I still remember one of my first cases was a dog bite in Hawaii and I approached the case that the dog had never bitten before Cause. I said, does the dog have a bite history? No, Well, it turns out the dog had bitten two or three people prior to this bite. Well, that's a big difference in dogs between a first bite and a fourth bite.
Speaker 3:And it completely changed my position in deposition and I don't like those surprises because I'm someone who needs time to think. I am not great on my feet, I have to mull things over, so make sure that you're getting all the information that you need. And for other experts I would just say remember, you're not an advocate, you are a neutral expert. Give the best information, not advice.
Speaker 2:Sage advice. Ms Kessler-Miller, thank you so much for joining me here today.
Speaker 3:You're so welcome. It was really nice meeting you.
Speaker 2:And thank you, as always, to our listeners for joining us for another edition of Engaging Experts Cheers.
Speaker 1:Thank, you for listening to our podcast Engaging Experts. Our show notes are available on our website roundtablegroupcom.