Engaging with Arboricultural Expert, Marty Shaw

Ever wondered what happens when trees become the center of legal disputes? Marty Shaw takes us behind the scenes of his fascinating career as an arboricultural expert witness, where he serves as "the CSI of trees" for courtrooms across America.

Shaw's journey into expert witnessing began unexpectedly while working as a wholesale distributor for tree healthcare products. A chance meeting with an established consultant opened his eyes to a profession where his specialized knowledge could help resolve conflicts and deliver justice. After attending the American Society of Consulting Arborists Academy, Shaw developed the skills to translate complex tree science into testimony that judges and juries could understand.

What makes Shaw's expertise particularly valuable is its rarity. "There's perhaps maybe a dozen people in the whole country that do what I do for a living," he explains, highlighting how he's carved out a specialized niche in arboricultural consulting. When preparing for testimony, Shaw creates detailed reports containing all his opinions and supporting documentation, helping him withstand challenges to his expertise while presenting information clearly to non-experts.

Technology has dramatically transformed Shaw's practice over the years. As the first consulting arborist to regularly use drones, he now captures detailed site imagery that reveals critical information about tree conditions. "It's the most profitable service that I offer and the most useful tool that I own by far," Shaw notes, explaining how drone imagery provides evidence that would otherwise be impossible to collect.

Beyond technical expertise, Shaw emphasizes that successful expert witnessing hinges on relationships. Setting clear expectations, maintaining communication, and showing mutual gratitude form the foundation of productive attorney-expert partnerships. For those considering this career path, Shaw advises patience: "If you're good at it, then the money will come and you'll be able to do it full time. But it does take a while."

Ready to learn more about how expert witnesses shape legal outcomes? Subscribe to Engaging Experts for more insider perspectives on specialized testimony that makes a difference in courtrooms nationwide.

Transcript

Meet Marty Shaw, Arboricultural Expert

SPEAKER_00 0:01

This episode is brought to you by Roundtable Grip, the experts on experts. We've been connecting attorneys with experts for over 30 years. Find out more at RoundtableGrip.com.

SPEAKER_02 0:13

Welcome to Engaging Experts. I'm your host, Noah Ballmer, and today I'm excited to welcome Marty Shaw to the show. Mr. Shaw is the founder and owner of Green Season Consulting, a full-service Arboracultural Consultancy with services ranging from forensic investigations to tree value appraisal and a lot more. He's an ISA certified arborist, a published author, and an experienced expert witness. Mr. Shaw, thank you so much for joining me here today on Engaging Experts.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Well, thank you so much for uh inviting me to be here, and uh it's a real pleasure. Of course, let's jump into it.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

So you've been in the trees for most of your career. How did you first become involved as an expert witness?

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Well, we'd have to go back to uh when I was a wholesale distributor for tree healthcare products, and I was calling on a guy out in Memphis, his name was Fred Morgan, and Fred was different from every other customer that I had. He didn't seem to do a lot. And uh I asked, called him up and asked him if I could spend some time with him, and he said, Yeah, sure, come on by. And so we spent about a half a day together, and uh we drove around and we looked at some trees and we talked about the trees and what he was going to tell the club customer about them, and uh it didn't really click for me to understand what it was that he did for a living. I just didn't get it. And so I asked him if I could spend another half a day with him, and finally, after spending that much time with him, he was able to explain it to me in a way that I could finally understand that he went around and talked to people, gave them advice, and then they paid him to give them tree advice. And some of the times that he'd give advice, he would be talking to attorneys and people that were engaged in a conflict and needed to have an expert testify. And so at the end of that uh second session with him, I said, Well, Fred, do you think I'd be any good at that? Because uh I heard that and I was like, Man, that was for me. He looked at me and he said, Marty, you'd be great at it. And he was right. So that was my first introduction to agricultural consulting in general, but uh the first experience that I had dealing with uh the potential for litigation and and uh doing consulting in that arena. It wasn't long after that I became a member of the American Society of Consulting Arborists and um uh attended something called the ASCA Academy. It's a week-long academy that uh the ASCA folks do, and they teach you about things like uh how to testify, how to write a report, and various aspects of consulting work. It seemed to focus pretty um uh narrowly on litigation work, and that was the part that I was really interested in. So maybe that was my perception, but for me it was all about man, I want to get into this arena where you get to testify.

SPEAKER_02 3:17

Did you know about expert witnessing prior to that, even as a topic at all?

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Uh you know, I'd been called upon uh a few times as a as a certified arborist to um testify on like general sessions court, really small potato stuff. And I was completely ill-equipped to do anything like that. Uh, but when I went to the academy, it really gave me a uh a sense of, yeah, I could actually do this. Now, of course, at the time I had no idea if I could even make a living at it or, you know, um feed my family or whatever, but I did uh I did want to do it and I really had a desire to be good at it. And so I started buying a lot of books and reading different books, and then I would call the authors of those books whenever I had a question about what they wrote, and they always appreciated my calls and and I learned a whole lot and did a lot of research, and then I started getting calls from attorneys and insurance adjusters and people that actually needed an expert in their case, and uh told them what my experience was as an arborist, and pretty soon I started getting cases regularly. It takes quite a bit of time to develop a practice as an arborist, and at the time I just wanted to do it. I had no idea that it would be so rewarding, and so that was kind of my introduction to arbicultural consulting.

SPEAKER_02 4:41

So you receive a phone call for an attorney or the representative of an of an attorney sometimes. What's that initial phone call like? What are the sorts of questions that they ask you to vet you to see that you have the experience and you're the correct person for the facts of this case? And how do you vet them and decide, hey, this is somebody who I want to work with, and this is an engagement that's worth accepting?

Path to Expert Witnessing

SPEAKER_01 5:03

Well, I've been around long enough to where uh people have heard about me from somebody else, or they already know that I'm the kind of guy that they want to talk to. Um, I've got a pretty good website that's very descriptive and it details a lot of the different types of assignments that I do. So when these guys call, uh they already know what they're getting into, and they just need some affirmation that I know how to help them with their case, and and uh I'll ask them a lot of questions that are very technical in nature. I'll give them some experience on how these cases typically go, what to look for, where the pitfalls are, because they want to know all that stuff. And then after about five minutes, they realize, hey, this is the guy. Uh I don't need to look anymore. And a lot of times uh they've been looking for a while. It surprises me that um people will have looked for over a year for an expert and not found one. I mean, when they finally get a hold of me, they're like, Man, uh, where have you been?

SPEAKER_02 6:00

Is it is it a fairly narrow field? In other words, are there are there a lot of experts doing what you do, or would you say that you're one of the few out there?

SPEAKER_01 6:09

Well, if I was gonna make a suggestion to anybody thinking about becoming an expert witness for cases and involving litigation, then I would suggest that they carve out their own niche um because everything that I do is very nuanced and uh very niche-oriented. There's perhaps maybe a dozen people in the whole country that do what I do for a living, and I'm the top one when it comes to certain subject matter.

SPEAKER_02 6:44

Absolutely. Do you know a lot of the other people on a personal basis uh who are in your field? Do you find yourself on the other side of the table, uh, you know, working in opposition to them? In other words, they're engaged by the other side. You're a plaintiff and they're a defendant.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

Oh, I can get do better than that. Um, so I'll get a phone call from an attorney. It's uh, you know, kind of a juicy case. And you know, they've talked to me and they are kind of hedging and hawing on it and not sure what they want to do. And well, we'll call you back. And then the very next day, it'll get another call from a uh the attorney on the other side of that case, and they'll say, Hey, uh, we'd like to look at this case. Uh what do you charge? And I'll say, you know, I got a call from the other party in this case, and whoever sends the retainer check first, they're gonna get the irony.

SPEAKER_02 7:36

Does it is it ever the case? I've heard sometimes from expert witnesses that in a field that doesn't have a lot of experts, sometimes one side will retain a specific expert just so that the other side doesn't have the opportunity to retain them. Is that something that's ever happened to you?

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Uh I'm sure it has. Uh, I wouldn't know directly. Um, but there have been cases where I've been sent a retainer check and I never hear from them again.

SPEAKER_02 8:05

Speaking of retainer checks, let's talk a little bit about your billing. Uh, do you do a non-refundable retainer? It seems like you do. Do you do hourly rates, project rates? Tell me a little bit about your billing.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

So I'm always going to offer a non-refundable retainer um to people that want to retain me. And it's a minimum amount that I hold until the conclusion of the assignment. And so um, I do charge an hourly rate for most things. Uh, but when it comes to actual court testimony or depositions, I have a flat rate for an eight-hour day. And now if it goes over the eight hours, I charge another day.

SPEAKER_02 8:44

Sure. Do you do you have a travel rate or is travel involved in your work as an expert witness?

SPEAKER_01 8:50

Yeah, as a standard of of my practice, I always charge for uh time of travel, and I also charge any expenses plus 20%.

SPEAKER_02 9:00

Let's talk about prep a little bit. So you're getting ready for a big case. Uh, maybe you have a deposition coming up, maybe it's the actual trial. How do you get ready? What are the things that make you feel prepared and ready to go uh in action?

SPEAKER_01 9:16

Well, in conversations with whoever's gonna hire me, I always explain to him that there's a couple of different processes that we need to do so that we can be thoroughly prepared. And that's for his benefit or her benefit as well as my benefit. I always write a very detailed report before any testimony. And the detailed report is gonna contain pretty much everything that I would need to testify to. It's gonna have all my opinions and conclusions and all the supporting documentation that you would need um to uh meet a Dobert challenge or some other kind of challenge.

SPEAKER_02 9:48

Have you ever been the subject of a Dobert challenge?

SPEAKER_01 9:51

Oh, yeah, many times.

SPEAKER_02 9:52

What's that like? Walk me through it.

SPEAKER_01 9:55

So they'll look at your uh CV and they'll look at your shortcomings and they'll say, okay, well, you didn't do this and you didn't do that, and you don't have this credential or that credential, and how can you testify about this or that? And it's just a matter of answering those questions in a calm and assertive way that shows that yes, you are an authority on the subject matter, and that the court should allow you to testify. Um, it's always a throw of the dice, though, because you don't always know how well the attorney that's on your side is gonna handle the Dalbert challenge because um it doesn't come up every day, but it does come up. And so um there's rules and regulations that the court has to abide by in order to meet the Dalvert standard. And so you're just explaining to the court how you meet all of those requirements, and hopefully the attorney that you're working with is familiar with them and and knows how to handle it.

SPEAKER_02 10:52

Have you had to deal with uh an attorney trying to impeach you on something that maybe you said 15 years ago, maybe taken out of context? How do you deal with keeping track of everything that you've ever said as it relates to your career and being able to defend those positions or just say, hey, I changed my mind, new information became available?

SPEAKER_01 11:13

Yeah, that's exactly right. Um, you don't have to go back forever because uh I think there's a limit to most jurisdictions of four years. And so if you've testified one way in a in a previous case, and then in this case you have to testify in a different way or a slightly different version of it, then you have to justify the different information and the different fact patterns that are associated with that testimony. And so as long as you base it on the differences and the facts and not you just suddenly change your mind, or uh perhaps you found out new information by reading a book or what have you, then um you're allowed to change your your testimony from one case to another. You can't do it flippantly, though.

The Expert Retention Process

SPEAKER_02 11:56

Sure. I've I've had experts tell me that sometimes uh not necessarily not necessarily Dober challenges, but a uh a deposition can go on for a really extended period of time, eight hours more, sometimes days. Have you been been subject to an endless deposition? How do you deal with not only um keeping your cool and and keeping it together and being able to answer answer all the questions, but just being able to deal with the the endurance that it takes to make it through one of these sessions?

SPEAKER_01 12:29

Well, normally uh there's going to be a limit to how much time that uh one side or the other can ask questions. I was once in a deposition involving a personal injury. Uh, this happened to be in Alabama, and uh there were eight attorneys, each one representing a different party. And so they were going round and round. This thing did last eight hours, and after eight hours, my attorney just piped up and said, Well, we're getting to the point now where uh we're starting to wear out the endurance of anybody that's been gonna be expected to testify. There have been, I think she's 1,500 questions in this deposition so far, and uh, we're gonna end it right now. If we need to come back, we'll revisit it.

SPEAKER_02 13:15

Yeah. Oh, wow. Uh getting ready for one of these things, besides obviously being prepared, reading your reports as you stated, things like that. Are there any intangibles? I've had expert witnesses tell me they like to, you know, do breathing exercises, do yoga, have a big breakfast, or you know, completely fast. Do you have any pretrial or pre-deposition routines that just kind of get you ready to go get in the right headspace?

SPEAKER_01 13:39

Um, I do an affirmation, uh, at least I used to, haven't done in years, but uh when I first started out, I was really nervous and I really timid about it and uh just really uptight about it. And so I would um I would take a few minutes in a quiet corner by myself, and I would just say, I like myself, I like myself, I like myself, I'm confident, I'm competing, I have the correct answers, I have a great memory. And so I would just do these little affirmations for about five or ten minutes, and it really helped.

SPEAKER_02 14:09

Uh, let's move to the general a little bit. What do you find meaningful about being an expert witness? Or put another way, why are expert witnesses important generally?

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Well, you know, we work in an industry that uh where the nature of the beast is conflict. And if we do a good job and we are thorough in our investigations and we're clear in our explanations of things, then we have an opportunity to help level the playing field, clear the air, and help people reach a conflict resolution. And ultimately, I think that's my motivation. Uh, I'm also uh one of these people that really digs justice. And so I like to see when people get what they deserve.

SPEAKER_02 14:55

You've been doing this for a while now, boy, uh over 15 years at least. What have you seen change in terms of being an expert witness? I've had experts tell me that Zoom and and telepresence has changed uh the way that they go about being an expert a lot. Are there any changes that you've seen and are there any trends moving forward?

SPEAKER_01 15:16

Well, there have been a lot of changes. Um, you know, when COVID hit, there was an awful lot of work that wasn't being done, a lot of courts closed down, uh, but anything that did occur seemed to happen over uh remotely via Zoom or or some other uh teleprompter type situation.

SPEAKER_02 15:37

Sure.

Preparing for Testimony

SPEAKER_01 15:38

And uh those innovations I think are gonna be the wave of the future. I think as courts allow, there's gonna be a lot more remote testimony than there is today. Uh the courts have to get used to the technology and used to the idea that it's okay to have somebody testify from their own um office or own workspace, and that's a big change. Um there have been other changes. Let's see. Um with the advent of drones and remote sensing, uh, I can get a much better, more relevant picture of a site um than I could ever before without the drone. It tells me exactly what the site conditions are at that moment. Um, and that's a very informative piece of information because we can do a lot with the imagery. Uh, we can create elevation maps, we can do NDVI plant health maps, um, we can see the site as it is, and we can take measurements from a very accurate orthomosaic map. And so the use of drones has has dramatically impacted my practice. And uh, I was the first consulting arborist to use drones in my practice regularly, and now I use it on almost every assignment.

SPEAKER_02 16:59

Wow. Do these do these drone images lead to demonstratives that you might use in either in your expert witness report or in front of a jury?

SPEAKER_01 17:08

Well, you know, a picture says a thousand words, and this drone imagery that I can create, I use a uh a DJ Dad drone, and then I take the images that I gather with that and upload them to something called drone deploy. And the drone deploy creates all these different types of imagery that tell me different things about the site that could be relevant. I almost always find something relevant to my work and the case at hand when I have the drone imagery. Without it, I there's just so much that I couldn't do. And you know, it's like one of those technologies that you'll find a use for it if you have it. And buddy, I'll tell you, I have found uh an uh immeasurable use. It's the most profitable service that I offer, and it's the most useful tool that I own by far.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

Do you ever get any pushback from engaging attorneys regarding site visits and sending up drones and all this kind of stuff? People who are kind of Luddites who don't understand uh the importance of this sort of uh drone testimony?

SPEAKER_01 18:16

I think it's intimidating to them because I've never been challenged on it.

SPEAKER_02 18:19

Have have you worked in um in different venues? I know that you're located in Tennessee. Have you worked in other states or perhaps at local and federal, perhaps in criminal and tort? Have you worked in a variety of different venues in your career as an expert witness?

SPEAKER_01 18:34

Sure. Uh in the United States I've worked at every level of litigation, and then um I've worked in 26 states. So I've got a pretty broad um exposure to different jurisdictions and and uh different venues, uh, whether it's state or federal, probably the biggest difference is whether you're a fry state or a Dalbert state. Back to that question that you asked before, were there any other changes that have occurred uh recently? The innovation of AI has really uh streamlined a lot of the tests that I do every day. Um, if I'm looking to do something different or new, um, I'll ask AI to write me an outline for it, and it'll write me an outline. Um one of the pitfalls of AI is that there's a lot of bad stuff out on the internet, and the database that the AI is using to create this outline or whatever for you, then uh it's sometimes picking up bad information. So you do have to check it and you do have to vet it, but um, it's still a very useful tool that streamlines a lot of things that I do now.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

I've had experts and even attorneys tell me that uh AI, uh, while it can be useful, it can take as much time to vet all of the information as it would have to just do it whole cloth. Has that been your experience, or does it in fact streamline uh your workflow?

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Well, it certainly streamlines uh the writing aspect of it. Um if I tell it what to write, it will write it without any punctuation errors and uh it'll do it in a way is uh much more concise and and uh clear to understand than I would do it. Um I'm a very technical person and I deal with a lot of technical issues, and so having AI isn't valuable because it dumbs it down for the average person to understand.

SPEAKER_02 20:27

As a very technical person, and you had mentioned this briefly earlier in our in our discussion, you know, communicating these complex topics. You said that you when you're vetting an attorney, sometimes you have a lot of very technical questions. How do you get some of these this technical information across to juries in a way that they can easily digest it?

SPEAKER_01 20:47

Well, you know, that's a real skill. Um, because it's easy to get the deer in the headlights glossed over eyes and they're starting to go to sleep and drift, and you can kind of tell when you're testifying if you're losing them. And so I have a real knack for being able to take complex issues and boil them down to their simplest elements and then bullet point them uh very quickly and easily uh so that we kind of seamlessly flow from one uh uh subject matter area to the other subject matter area, and then trying to tie everything together with simple, easy to understand analogies.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

Is there something that expert witnesses can do to improve their improve that skill, or is that something that you either have or you don't?

SPEAKER_01 21:34

Well, practice. You just gotta practice, and I would practice on people that don't know anything about what you do.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

Just try and communicate your your uh niche to them and see if they can repeat it back to you?

SPEAKER_01 21:46

Well, people generally want to give you feedback and they're very eager to help you. And so depending on the audience, you know, if it's your wife or your kids or whatever, um, they'll tell you if they don't understand something or if it doesn't make sense. Like a lot of times um people will ask, well, what it is that what is it that you do for a living? And uh to try to make it easier for them, I would just say, Well, have you ever seen that show, CSI? And of course, invariably people, yeah, yeah, sure, I've seen CSI. And I said, Well, that's what I do for anything related to trees.

SPEAKER_02 22:20

Of course. Uh so a lot of uh people don't realize that expert witnesses don't exist in a vacuum. There's trial teams, sometimes there's paralegal, sometimes they're assistants, sometimes there are a uh a whole bunch of uh expert witnesses, maybe you're in your field, but probably in a lot of other fields, especially for large litigation. Have you worked with on larger trial teams and have you worked with other expert witnesses in your career?

Technology and Industry Changes

SPEAKER_01 22:49

Sure. And I've got a lot of experience. Um, I have a lot of connections that are um uh cross-cultural. Um, for example, um, I'm not a I'm not a surveyor, and so I would never take on a surveying assignment, but I could take on the assignment and then reassign that task to a surveyor. And so I would I would definitely be what would be considered a a lead expert on a case. And so I'm the guy that the attorneys go, well, we need this, this, this, and this. Who have you got? And then I could say, well, this is outside of my area, but I can get this guy over here who deals with um meteorology, and I got another guy over here who deals with wood science, and I got another guy over here that deals with this. And so uh staying in your lane is vitally important when it comes to expert witnessing. And if you don't know, you can always farm it out to somebody who does.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

When you subcontract it out to another trusted party, does is that just between you and them, or are they do they then become part of the overall expert witness agreement with the attorney?

SPEAKER_01 23:58

Well, it depends on how the attorney wants to handle it. Some attorneys want to handle all that stuff in-house and they want their experts to work directly for them. Other attorneys uh are very happy to let you handle the subcontractor and let them uh work directly for you. So it just depends on the situation and and how the attorneys want to handle it.

SPEAKER_02 24:18

Let's talk about red flags for a moment. Are there any things that you know, either during the initial phone call or at some point during the engagement, set you off and you can tell that something's not quite right, something's gonna go wrong, or something needs to change. What are the red flags that you've experienced?

SPEAKER_01 24:36

Usually the attorney is pretty clear on what they need. Um, if they're any good, they typically want you to just do your investigation and they want to know what you find. Um, the red flags that you typically run into are well, we need somebody to testify next week, and we need them to testify this, this, this, this, and this. I go, well, that's not the way this is supposed to work. Uh maybe we'd better uh check back in a month or so after you had a chance to get some more time. And if somebody's in a real hurry, that's that's usually the biggest red flag that hey, you just blew it.

SPEAKER_02 25:16

Yeah, you don't be able to dig you out of it. Timing is something that comes up a lot. Uh, I hear from experts that a lot of the time they have these rush, these last-minute jobs. In your experience, the attorneys typically engage you at an appropriate time where you have sufficient time to get them whatever it is that they need, uh expert witness report, do whatever research that you need, go over the case materials that they send you, or do you feel kind of a crunch regularly?

SPEAKER_01 25:45

Uh well, if the time constraint really gets uh iffy, I just ballot out. I don't try to meet their timelines because I'm pretty simp as it is. Um, and I've got other cases, you know, I'm not just sitting here working on their case and that's it. So I I do have other cases that that may or may not take priority. Um, I did have a situation the other day that was fairly urgent because um it was a personal injury case, a tree fell on a family, and and uh somebody got hurt real bad. And so um the Attorney told me while I was talking to them, hey, you know, the party that owns this tree is destroying the evidence, and they've got chippers and trucks, and they're hauling stuff off. We need to get down there right away. And in that case, you know, I made an exception. I'm like, yeah, it makes sense. And so we did the engagement very quickly, and we got down there, got the information, and now we've got everything we need. Now we can slow down because we're at the beginning of the case rather than at the end of the case.

SPEAKER_02 26:49

So are there any seminal cases that come to mind, things that either change the way that you fundamentally go about being an expert witness or reinforce something that you were already doing?

SPEAKER_01 27:00

Uh there was one case I had in Washington, DC, and um in during the case, the um and during trial, I was testifying and I made an emphatic statement about um there was a fungus inside this tree to the judge. And the judge didn't like that very much, and he said, Well, that's just hearsay. I believe that that question actually went to the um the Court of Appeals, and uh I think they changed the rule now. If you have not cited the reference that you're gonna testify about in your report, you have to cite it in the report, then they're not gonna allow you to testify about it at trial. And so that was the difference because before you used to be able to say, Well, I talked to so and so who is the leading expert on this, and they said it was this. Well, they're not gonna allow that anymore. They used to.

SPEAKER_02 27:59

So, do you have any any expert witnessing stories that will either, you know, motivate uh newer expert witnesses, or tell me something about your career as an expert witness? Tell me a story.

SPEAKER_01 28:13

Well, I don't know if this is a motivational story or if it's just a very interesting, fascinating, wow, I never would have imagined kind of things. So how about if I just wow you for a minute?

SPEAKER_02 28:26

Wow me.

unknown 28:27

Okay.

Working with Trial Teams

The Rest of the Story

SPEAKER_01 28:29

Um this is the rest of the story. And it's a case that I had down in uh uh a large major metropolitan city in the southeast, and you could probably guess which city it was. But uh my client was an attorney who was representing a tree company that had gone out and done some work for a set of twins in a really, really nice high-end no-mortgage neighborhood. And so um my clients um got the contract. He's a young guy, his wife is young, they're pregnant, and he goes out and he does this tree work um for this set of twins, and the twins live in this beautiful, you know, annabellum home and uh with their parents who are elderly. And so Tyrson goes out and contracts this work, he gets the work done, and after they get the work done, a period of time goes by and they don't get paid. Well, he's young, his wife's pregnant, and they get kind of itchy about getting paid, and so they keep calling this and and let's just call the uh let's call one of the twins Ingrid. All right. So Ingrid um doesn't return their calls. Excuse me, and she's the contact person for this contract. And a period of time goes by and weeks go by. And then finally the wife throws her hands up. She tells her husband, I'm going to get paid. And so she uh writes this nasty letter up and threatens to uh place a um uh uh a lien on the property, and uh so this letter ends up in the hands of Angrid, and uh she calls up and says, Come over here, I'm gonna write you a check right now. Smiling the whole time, right? And so the young lady uh she goes over there, she's pregnant, real pregnant by now, and uh Angrid signs her the check and she says, Thank you very much, never call us again. She thought that was the end, right? Well, what she didn't know is that Ingrid in her past career was an insurance adjuster, and she knew the game, and so she hires this jack-legged shyster lawyer and sues them, and that's when I become involved. They call me up. Uh, she had gotten this other expert to write this really flimsy report, and uh it was a lot of money, okay. We were gonna we're talking, they were gonna get buried in legal fees. So I go down there and we do the site visit, right? And so my attorney's there, her attorney's there, the tree company's representative is there, and I have a helper with me to look at the place. And I'm telling you, man, this place was run down. Okay, it was in complete disrepair, and um they're listing out all these different damages that occurred, and I'm telling them, hey, show me everything that was damaged, blah, blah, blah. All right, this we're getting a little bit off kilter here, but I bring all this information back, I do you know 20 core samples of the tree, we do all kinds of analysis, and basically it's Buck, right? And so I write my report and I never hear from anybody ever again. So I got another case in the same city, and I'm thinking, who do I know down there that I could talk to that could give me some information that I need? And I thought, oh, I'll just call the tree company up. I work for him, he's probably pretty happy with what I did, and I never heard from again, so maybe that case is over and done with. And so I call him on the phone and he says, Maury, Maury, did you hear what happened? I said, I have no idea what you're talking about. He said, Oh, you've got to hear the rest of the story. So we take care of our business, and he says, Well, you know that guy, Richard Merritt, the attorney that was working for Angry. I said, Yeah, he was a weird cat. He said, Yeah, he was weird. He was a womanizer and a gambler and a drug addict and a murderer. I was like, What? I've never heard anything like this. He said, Well, your case broke the whole thing wide open. After your case, Ingrid found out he was stealing money from his clients, thousands and thousands of dollars, and he had already settled the case and he never told her. And so he was gonna go before the judge and go to jail for five years because he was such a seister and lose, lost his his uh law license and everything. I said, Oh my gosh, and I said, Man, he said, No, that's not the rest of the story. Well, he was going to be sentenced that very day. He took off his ankle bracelet, he went over to his mother's house, he ended up stabbing her with a kitchen knife, stole her car, and drove to Nashville, where I live. The U.S. Marshals finally caught up with this guy, and now he's gone to jail for the rest of his life.

SPEAKER_02 34:11

Wow. Wow. Wow story. Oh man, you know, you know, that actually it brings up kind of a common topic that I get, which is expert witnesses don't really know what happens to the disposition of their case after they leave because they don't they're not there till the verdict, you know, they're they're there for their part, and then they just kind of peace out. So yeah, wow, that's absolutely unbelievable story.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

Wow. Well, thanks for letting me share it.

SPEAKER_02 34:43

Wow. Uh, let's talk about relationships for a moment. What makes for a positive expert witness attorney relationship? Not only how do you get off on the right foot, but how do you maintain that positive inertia throughout the engagement?

SPEAKER_01 34:57

All right. So there's three things that you really can count on when it comes to having a good working relationship with the attorney. Uh, number one, you have to set down clear expectations on both sides. Number two, you gotta communicate, and number three, you've got to show gratitude. If you have those three elements, then everything else is pretty easy.

SPEAKER_02 35:24

Hmm. Tell me a little bit about gratitude. What how can uh an expert witness display gratitude to towards an attorney who's taking care of their needs and and the vice versa of that?

SPEAKER_01 35:37

Well, uh, by producing a report and getting information they need on time. Uh usually these cases have uh uh an order that requires certain things, discovery to be done in certain time, and then um all the other things that are gonna be in place, and then you have the trial. And so um, as long as you get all your stuff done by the uh end of discovery or when the attorney needs them in a timely fashion, then I think that's showing gratitude for the work and also being courteous to you know help them with their case. On the other hand, you know, the attorney really only has one job, and that's to pay your bills. And to me, that's the greatest sign of gratitude, is when you get paid.

SPEAKER_02 36:23

Absolutely. Before we wrap up, do you have any last advice for experts or attorneys working with experts?

SPEAKER_01 36:30

Uh, I think if you're first starting out, uh, don't rely on being a testimony expert as your only source of income. You've got to be doing other stuff, an easier way into that practice. Um, eventually, if you're good at it, then the money will come and you'll be able to do it full time. But it does take a while. And so just be patient, do the work, do the time, and eventually people will find out about you and they'll come to you.

SPEAKER_02 36:56

Absolutely, Mr. Shaw. Thank you so much for joining me here today.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

Oh, well, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. No, and I really like your broadcast.

SPEAKER_02 37:04

Uh, great, thank you so much, and thank you as always to our listeners for joining us for another edition of Engaging Experts. Cheers.

SPEAKER_00 37:12

Thank you for listening to our podcast, Engaging Experts. Our show notes are available on our website, roundtable group.com.