Engaging Experts
After 25 years helping litigators find the right expert witnesses, Round Table Group’s network contains some of the world’s greatest experts. On this podcast, we talk to some of them about what’s new in their field of study and their experience as expert witnesses.
Engaging Experts
Engaging with Finance and Securities Expert, Dr. Pavithra Kumar
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In this episode…
Today’s guest, Dr. Pavithra Kumar, is a principal at Advanced Analytical Consulting Group. She specializes in the application of economic and financial theory to questions arising in complex security and finance litigation. Dr. Kumar is a published author and holds a PhD in finance from MIT.
Women and minorities make up some of the most accomplished experts in their fields, yet they are often at a disadvantage when attorneys choose expert witnesses, according to Dr. Kumar. It is crucial to remain vigilant of subconscious biases and take positive steps to choose the best person for the engagement, regardless of background.
Check out the entire episode for our discussion on being proactive, litigation in crypto, and building relationships as an expert.
This episode is brought to you by Roundtable Grip, the experts on experts. We've been connecting attorneys with experts for over 30 years. Find out more at RoundtableGrip.com.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to Engaging Experts. I'm your host, Noah Ballmer, and today I'm excited to welcome Dr. Pavitra Kumar to the show. Now, Dr. Kumar is a principal at Advanced Analytical Consulting Group. She specializes in the application of economic and financial theory to questions arising in complex security and finance litigation. Dr. Kumar is a published author and holds a PhD in finance from MIT. Dr. Kumar, thank you so much for joining me here today on Engaging Experts.
SPEAKER_02Thank you so much, Noah. Happy to be here.
From PhD to Lehman to Consulting
SPEAKER_00Great. Let's jump into it. So you have a background in economics and finance, but how did you first get involved in expert witnessing?
SPEAKER_02Well, uh, it's been a long time now since I finished my PhD, but uh kind of an interesting route. So I'd uh actually not heard that much about economic consulting during my my PhD at MIT. I, you know, I knew I wanted to go into industry rather than academia. I had interned at Lehman Brothers uh during the third year of my PhD, um doing uh research work, and I had actually really enjoyed it. I received an offer to return to Lehman Brothers full-time after the end of my PhD. Um, unfortunately, um my PhD ended in um the summer of 2008, so I ended up joining Lehman Brothers right before September 2008. And as I'm sure uh many of our audience knows, uh that was a couple of weeks before Lehman went bankrupt. So I hung around for a couple of months at Barclays, which ended up buying up the US operations of Lehman. Uh I did a couple of different uh jobs, you know, things were in turmoil there, but I did some technical analysis work on the trading floor, which was was interesting, but not quite what I was looking for in terms of a more rigorous, deep research job. So um, you know, I went back to some of my contacts at MIT, and you know, one of the one of the professors I knew well there and who I'd worked with was affiliated with an economic consulting group back in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Uh I interviewed with them, really, really liked the people and the nature of the work, which it involves applying analytical skills to real-world problems and doing consulting for lawyers on cases where they need expertise in economics and finance. It covers a variety of contexts and industries. So it sounded super interesting and challenging to me. And uh, you know, I got an offer to join them. And uh yeah, since then I I was at that firm for almost 10 years and have moved around a little bit since. Um, worked on both both coasts of the country, and now I'm I'm in New York at a at a boutique, but you know, very well-known uh economic consulting firm. So that's a little bit about my my background and my my path.
SPEAKER_00Sure. So so tell me about these initial phone calls. You you get a call from an attorney or from a representative of that attorney, and they say, Hey, yeah, I've got a case and it's X, Y, and Z, and we think that you might be the right person. How do you know that you are the right expert for the job? And how do how do you know that they're a uh an attorney that you care to work with?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, that's that's a really good and important question. You know, I I have expertise that can be applied in a variety of contexts. So I, you know, I look to see that it's um something that will uh utilize my my core skills, which I would say are in corporate finance, securities analysis, valuation, mergers and acquisitions-related uh transactions work, um, and really sort of damages analysis across a variety of contexts. So I would say in my skills are a little bit more generalist. So I would, you know, look to see that the case exploits those skills and that I can apply that to the specific question being asked. And, you know, I think it first and foremost during these calls, you it is very important to establish your expertise in that specific area and show you you can really address the specific question they're asking. Uh so you need to you need to establish your credibility right up front to be able to explain potentially complex issues very simply to them. I think that's that's what they're looking for.
SPEAKER_00Uh beyond being an expert in your field, what are some of the intangibles that they're looking for? What makes a great expert as opposed to just a knowledgeable expert?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think it goes back to what I just mentioned about being able to break down a really complex issue simply. Um, you know, other things uh would be, you know, do you show the capability to ask the right questions of them? You know, are you thinking a bit more strategically? Are you thinking through potential pitfalls or potential weaknesses of your analysis? I think that's that's an important um intangible factor. You know, how do you present yourself? Do you speak clearly and confidently? Uh are you someone who's personable, someone who they will enjoy working with, interacting with? Are you, you know, do you come across as a reliable and responsive person? You know, those uh seem like basic things, but those are really crucial when you're working on tight deadlines, or on cases which have tight deadlines.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And attorneys, you know, I've repeated time and again how important things like demeanor are when they are selecting an expert that's going to Yes, being calm. Exactly, staying calm.
Barriers for Women Experts
SPEAKER_02Calm under pressure. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So one topic I'd really like to get into is there's not a lot of women uh expert witnesses. You spoke about this recently at actually it was a it was a webinar called uh uh This Talk Isn't Cheap. So tell me about the barriers facing female expert witnesses today.
Strategies to Overcome Bias
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. And that that that was a webinar I gave, it was last year, actually, or I think it was two years ago. I'm forgetting on the spot. But you know, it was uh fairly recently. Yeah, it was it was hosted by the American Bar Association, uh the diversity and women groups, women's groups there. So I was I was honored to be uh invited to speak on that panel. And um, you know, yes, there are there are real barriers still facing female and especially minority female expert witnesses today. I I have seen positive change and some promising trends. Um, you know, I do have several ex-colleagues from other firms where I know that they have had success in getting on the stand. So that's that's fantastic. But I think you know that the real issue here is you know, being a woman of color in this field marks you out as a minority when the vast majority of attorneys and experts are older and you know, usually white men. Um, you know, the the the real barriers go beyond just being a woman of color. So I think you know, just being a woman and a minority in and of itself doesn't really matter. You know, most of the people we work with are sophisticated people, you know, they're they're not prejudiced, you know, it's it's just a deep subconscious bias, which I think exists. And that's due to presenting yourself or appearing as somebody different. If it if it looks like you come from a very different culture or background, even speaking with a different accent, having different interests, different type of personality and upbringing, you know, all of these are subtle markers that again mark you out as being different from the mainstream, which again is issued in the in corporate America, is still uh a white male. And you know, being a woman of color is correlated to those differences. You know, correlation is not causation, as economists would say. The real causation here is just being different to the typical white male. So this is something I've I've reflected on um a lot. You know, I think diversity initiatives which companies engage in are all good, but I'm I'm not sure those get at the at the core issue here. I think you know, women uh do, especially minority women, do need to be aware of these differences uh that they present, and you just have to be extra careful at trying to overcome those upfront. I think, you know, an issue I've faced in the past is, you know, part of my upbringing is being to be very polite and deferential and submissive and you know, agree with what people, especially superiors, are saying. Um that doesn't mean that you're not intelligent and are not thinking through the analysis rigorously, but but it does present yourself as not being someone who's challenging, as someone who's not thinking strategically, as someone who comes across as very mechanical and detail-oriented, but you as someone who's not stepping outside of that and um really thinking through the big picture um in order to be, in order to really become an expert in that field or in that particular case. So that you know, that that is an issue that presents itself a little more frequently for women, and especially minority women or foreign women. And it can manifest itself in feedback that you get as well. Again, earlier in my career, I did receive feedback that I came across as too passive, too mechanical, you know, not thinking of the big picture. And I think part of that was was was true. I think, you know, I was so focused on you know doing a good job and mastering the details that I kind of didn't take myself outside outside of that and and think um think more strategically. But this I mean just from my you know 16 plus years experience in the industry, I I do, I definitely think this is an issue that affects um women, uh women of color who are starting out in their careers. And you know, unfortunately can lead to a dent in their confidence and can but can become somewhat of a self-fulfilling prophecy, and that you know, you you keep getting this messaging that uh you're too mechanical and passive, and then it's it's just very difficult to break out of that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it it sounds like a lot of the difficulty is is prior to you becoming already known as a as a reliable expert in your field when you're just getting started. How do you overcome some of these obstacles? What actionable advice do you have for women and minorities, and in particular minority women who are trying to break into expert witnesses?
SPEAKER_02I think, you know, as as I mentioned before, firstly being super aware of this unconscious bias. Uh, but then secondly, you know, if I if I were to go back to my uh younger self and and give advice, it would be to you know, really strive not to come across as nervous or unsure of yourself. You know, I don't think anybody ever has all the answers. And I think, you know, in general, I might be generalizing a little bit, but I think men are a little bit better as come, you know, still sounding confident even if they don't know all the answers, right? You know, coming up with a way to phrase it and that, you know, I might not know this, but here are some other suggestions, or here are the right questions to ask, etc. So there there are ways to, you know, get around not knowing all the answers up front. What's more important um is to demonstrate the ability to think strategically, to think big picture, um, and to be able to present, um, present that um sense of, you know, you know what you're doing, you're you're in control, as opposed as opposed to, you know, talking very quickly, sounding shy or or unsure of yourself. And that you know, that that's a pitfall, you know, I've I've I've fought that's a sort of a a trap I've fallen into earlier in my career. I do, I have seen others uh falling into that trap as well. So that would be the number one thing to focus on. You know, speaking slowly. I've I've been told other women have been told that you speak a bit fast. Again, that doesn't indicate that you don't know what you're talking about, but it does communicate that maybe you're a little bit nervous and worried about what other people will think. So slowing it down, you know, speaking clearly, loudly, um, and uh being able to, you know, come up with an answer on the spot even if you don't have uh the full set of information or a fully formed answer, though those are critical skills. And I think you know, women could could focus even more on that in order to overcome some of these unconscious biases that exist in the workplace.
SPEAKER_00When you when you talk about um developing these skills, are there some sorts of practices? Is there a way that uh even people who are not minorities people who just uh you know you know might need to develop these skills further? Are there techniques that people can use to get better at you know slowing down, considering their response? You know, what are the sorts of things that you recommend that anyone who struggles with these issues can do to improve?
Building Presence and Delivery
Coaching, Rehearsal, and Feedback
SPEAKER_02That's a really good question. You know, I will say I'm my previous answers might have come across as, you know, presenting this as an issue that is just something faced by women of color. But you know, yeah, I agree with you. I mean, it's it's very important to stress that this can affect anyone. Um and uh, you know, I think this this is really the root issue. It happens to be, I think, a little more correlated with uh being being a woman or being foreign or being perceived as different, but it can affect anyone. And I think you know, that that's a great question. I would say um something that's really helped me, and this was at one of my previous firms, you know, they did invest in uh quote-unquote executive coaching for for their staff, you know, not just super senior staff, but people at all levels, you know, associate level, uh people who are kind of just starting out on on in their careers. Um and so this is you know not coaching on the finance or economic skills, you know, everybody has um has that down. But this is more focus focusing on the so-called more soft skills, interpersonal skills, so how to present yourself. Um yeah, exactly. Things like working on your speech. So uh, you know, having people practice presenting something and then critiquing that, saying, yeah, you sped up here, or you there was some issue with your body language, you're maybe covering your face or fidgeting, and that that makes you come across as as nervous. Um, you know, really uh something I've been told in the past that I wasn't aware of is sometimes when I speak, I I trail off at the end of sentences. So, you know, I might just trail off like this, yeah, giving an example, and that makes it sound like I I'm not sure of what I'm saying. And it was it's completely unintentional. But I think in you know, in meetings earlier in my career, I would present a point and they wouldn't land quite as well as I hoped it would, because it sounded like I was just really not not sure of it myself, so people didn't pay attention. And part of that is due to the due to the way I said it, I trailed off. And I I you know, this is something that both men and women can do, honestly. So having having that kind of coaching, I had a couple of sessions at previous firms, that really, really helped me because these are things I was just not aware of before. You know, making you record yourself. Um, in some of these sessions, you gave a presentation, then they played it back to you and pointed out instances where I could have improved my delivery. So again, this is this is soft skills, but this is super important where whether you're a uh just a consultant or whether you're doing expert um witness work as well, it's it's it's very crucial. And attorneys, you know, this this does affect attorneys' perception of you because they want someone who's going to come across as very confident and calm on the stand. And you know, for that they need to know that you're sure of yourself. And that again, this this kind of coaching can help you work on that.
What Firms Can Do Differently
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know, I I've heard from attorneys who use mock cross-examination as a tool that occasionally they'll record the expert witness and force them to look back and watch themselves. Now, people really, really hate listening to recordings of themselves and watching their performances, uh, but I've heard that uh it can be an extremely effective tool in seeing for yourself uh things that you might be able to improve upon. That said, what what are the sorts of things that the industry, and it's funny to talk about expert witnessing as though it's a single industry because it's not. It's just, you know, every industry has experts, but what should attorneys and firms be doing to make sure that they're not falling into the subconscious traps of not hiring somebody because of these sorts of because of these sorts of perceptions of women and minorities. You've been doing this for 15 years. Is there momentum in the right direction right now?
SPEAKER_02Uh yeah, another excellent question. I do think there is momentum in the right direction. I think you we we have a new generation of of lawyers, you have younger lawyers, more diverse lawyers, you know, diversity is improving in the legal industry as well. So, you know, you have more um female minority lawyers um in in in senior positions who are in charge of hiring experts. And I do see positive momentum there. I think I've I've seen I've personally seen more willingness amongst um this newer generation of attorneys to consider up-and-coming experts uh above and beyond their usual roster of, you know, just a handful of the same experts over and over again. You know, but some attorneys have told me this explicitly and that they are looking for greater diversity in experts. And that this is not something that was said, you know, even five years ago. So there's definitely positive momentum. The change is still slow. You know, the top experts are still older, mostly white men. But it's going to take a while for this to change. But as I mentioned, you know, I do have um colleagues from other firms who have managed to get on the stand. Um, and you know, I've I've I've been encouraged uh by my own marketing efforts, um, getting on the roller decks of of more of more attorneys, getting more expert interviews, more visibility, etc. So there's there is momentum, but this is going to be a tough one um to change. You just need to see um more, you need to see change in in clients' um hiring practices, and you know, that will come with time.
SPEAKER_00Is there anything that attorneys who do want to move in that direction can actively be doing to uh make sure that they are considering the entire pool of candidates?
Expanding the Expert Pool
SPEAKER_02Honestly, you know, just just a willingness to step outside of the the the customary practice of hiring the same handful of experts. You know, um I've seen especially on the on the plaintiff side, you know, where there's there's a narrower pool of experts that the plaintiff side attorneys use, um, I think um they they'd be making special efforts um to reach out to to different experts. So I would, you know, there's nothing nothing sophisticated in this suggestion, but you know, I would encourage them to um to keep doing that. You know, look on your using other tools beyond your, again, just looking at the same people over and over again, maybe um using LinkedIn to try and keep tabs on experts, you know, that there are new um expert search services uh which are available now. You know, maybe even AI will play a role in helping to find um experts in the future. So I think for lawyers, you know, keeping up with some of these technological developments, um, keeping abreast of some of these new ways of searching for experts beyond just the the usual few, um, I would encourage them to keep doing that. I I think you know, I think change will be necessary at some point because there are so many new complex areas of litigation arising, and you know, that the the usual the usual suspects may not have deep uh knowledge of those areas because those are again new, you know, crypto litigation, for example. So there I think it'll be really necessary to start looking for some of these newer up-and-coming experts. And so attorneys will be incentivized to do broaden their search in this manner as well.
Enter Crypto: A Fast-Moving Frontier
SPEAKER_00Well, that's a great segue. So shifting gears, you've talked about you've talked about publicly uh uh trends in crypto litigation. This is a pretty new field. So, what is it like being an expert in these new versioning upcoming fields? How do you stay on top of the changes that are happening every single day? How should experts maintain their expertise? Because obviously a big part of being an expert isn't just being an expert, it's not necessarily static, it's remaining an expert. So, how do you how do you keep on top of your field? And what are some of the uh what are some of the considerations um that that you have to constantly contend with in remaining an expert in the field of finance?
Applying Core Tools to Crypto
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. It is highly dynamic, just picking up on what you were saying. Um, you know, crypto is not an area I was an expert in even just a few years ago, and that you know, clearly that's because crypto-related work has has surged in the last um you know two, three years in particular. So I think everybody's uh everybody who wants to get into this area is having to learn new things constantly. You know, for for me, I mean yes, you're right that I recently gave a series of three crypto litigation webinars uh with a colleague and expert at my firm, AACG. Um and uh one of the ways I I prepared for that is you know, really just reading everything I can about development in in the crypto world, you know, not just litigation, but also regulatory and enforcement trends. So, you know, I for one, I mean, I'm I I love podcasts is one of the reasons I'm enjoying being on this particular podcast. But I I love listening, I love listening to podcasts. I subscribe to to many different types of podcasts, you know, not even just uh finance and economics, you know, history is another love of mine. Um, but uh, you know, I do look out for you know finance slash legal podcasts on on crypto. Um, so lawyers' perspectives on key trends in the crypto space, uh, key regulatory and enforcement developments. I listen to some um you know government-side podcasts as well. Um, and in addition to that, you know, looking at I subscribe to many newsletters related to crypto. Um, and you're just just I'm on top of the news in general. So, you know, in my inbox every day, you know, I get several alerts related to the latest developments, you know, Genius Act, uh, little coins, uh, you know, crypto being allowed in 401k plans, etc., that there's just been so much going on in the last couple of weeks. Um, you know, the new crypto initiatives uh led by by the uh SEC. So that that's been really helpful. And just just being very proactive and subscribing to all these um uh alerts and updates in the crypto space. And that's that's really helped me um keep abreast of the developments. And you know, that that helped us develop uh the the key talking points for our for our webinars. You know, I we we covered quite a bit of ground, you know, we we started out by discussing a general overview of how crypto differs from traditional money and then getting into some of the key regulatory trends, and then our latest uh webinar, which was you know just last week, covered uh some of the key trends we see arising in the crypto litigation space and you know how importantly how economic and finance experts can plug in there and help attorneys. Um, you know, and I I in response to something else you asked about, you know, what are the um key areas of expertise or skills experts will need to provide in these types of cases. You know, I think what's interesting is I I I think the same basic uh tools relating to, you know, assessing economic damages, um, looking at uh the drops in price of certain securities, um would you would these are key tools that you use in assessments of securities, fraud. You know, I think those tools would remain basically the same, but you do have to adapt that to um the more complex world of crypto technology, and also you account for this very dynamic, regulatory and legal environment. So it's it's not a matter of learning completely new skills, it's it's a matter of applying uh the basic economics and finance tools and experts already have, uh, but knowing how to apply that to this new highly dynamic environment.
SPEAKER_00As somebody who gives a good number of webinars, how important is it to continually publish in your field? Is that part of why attorneys find you attractive as a potential expert witness?
SPEAKER_02Yes, absolutely. And I I would say the crypto webinars uh, for example, did attract um a lot of interest from um both attorneys and you know, even other experts who thought we could provide complementary expertise in some of these new areas of litigation that that we talked about. Um so it's it's super important, you know, webinars, also publications, you know, at that by current firm, we've we've published on securities topics, you know, implications of uh Supreme Court rulings, for example, um, that impacted 10B5 cases uh last year. Um, you know, we're planning to launch a series of podcast discussions, which are in a little bit will be a little bit more informal conversation um format uh compared to our more formal webinar sessions. Um but yeah, feature-featuring conversations with um experts. So it's it's a way to market our general expertise as well as you know, market our network of affiliated experts as well. I think I think that's that's very important, you know, knowing how to market that effectively on LinkedIn and other media as well, other forms of media as well. Because the ITs do pay attention to this. And as I mentioned, you know, especially in some of these new uh and growing areas of litigation, you know, the traditional experts may not have the expertise they need. So they do need to get a little bit more creative in searching for other experts. And again, the bit knowing how to market yourself and these various forms of content on LinkedIn and other channels is really important in reaching attorneys.
SPEAKER_00You you mentioned uh marketing in LinkedIn and other channels. What marketing has been most effective for you? For instance, have you used referral agencies like Roundtable Group? Do you prefer websites? You talk about LinkedIn. What has been uh the most effective tool for you?
Networks, Conferences, and Community
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so you know it's definitely a combination of all of those. You know, I am I am listed on Roundtables, so um, you know, I have received a number of expert requests from them, which has been great. But in terms of you know generating interest from attorneys, I think I think it all comes down to publicizing relevant content in a in a concise manner. So I would say, you know, lengthy academic journal articles. Well, you know, that that's great for advertising your credentials. You know, that doesn't quite catch the eye of attorneys as much as you know, uh short, short and sweet, but highly relevant content that you kind of blast out regularly. Um, you know, we have a mailing list of attorneys, so you know, we email attorneys with our latest articles, podcasts, webinars, etc. Um, and then also, you know, I help to market that to my wider network um on LinkedIn. Uh, I also, you know, one another channel I use is, you know, attending and networking at conferences, you know, especially women's conferences, because you know, that frankly there are fewer attendees is more of an opportunity to build a close relationship with senior female attorneys there. So that that has been super useful, attending a very targeted um conferencing and networking events in my area, or in my areas of litigation. Uh, trying to sponsor certain events, you know, legal events, and you're trying to get on speaking panels as well. You know, that's something I'm currently working on. Um, but that that has been extremely useful. Um and you know, joining exclusive expert networks, you know, round table is a is a referral service. You know, I am also a part of the securities expert round table network. I think several of your previous um guests are also part of that that network. And that that that's been very useful in meeting both other other experts who could use my expertise as you know, complementary to their cases, as well as meeting securities attorneys, you know, crypto attorneys. I met a couple at one of their previous events, which was very useful for me. Um so yeah, I've I've of late I've really been branching out into you know joining these very targeted groups and uh again, blasting out relevant content to them as frequently as I can.
SPEAKER_00I've long thought that expert witnesses would benefit from coming together and discussing their experiences either within their field or outside of their field. Have have you met other expert witnesses and have you made valuable connections in in that way? And is that something that you recommend that other expert witnesses should try to avail themselves of?
Coordinating Multiple Experts
SPEAKER_02Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've I've obviously worked with and met expert witnesses, you know, throughout the course of my career because I've I've you know I've supported a lot of high-profile experts. Uh but I would say, you know, most recently I've I've really um I've seen this, you know, that this kind of this area, this area of knowledge really accelerate for me because because I joined these exclusive expert networks such as the Securities Expert Roundtable Group. And I think what they do that's really unique is you know they do create a forum for experts to meet and share best practices, um, you know, even relating to administrative stuff, such as you know, best practices for billing, uh crafting engagement letters, you know, how to overcome a certain issue when you speak with attorneys, you know, even the first question you ask me on this podcast, you know, things to cover in your first call with an attorney. I I think we discussed that at our um annual conference a couple of weeks ago, and you know, they gave me a lot of uh valuable tips for sure. So, you know, I've I've never really been part of a group that has done that in the past. And so joining this particular group a couple of months ago has been has been very useful, you know, in addition to the lessons I've learned through working with experts over the last 15, 16 years. Um but you know, that that that that is very important. And I think you've in particular not just sharing, you know, stories of things that went well, but it's great when experts also share stories of things that did not go well, um, lessons they've learned, etc., um, what what to avoid. Uh, I don't think we hear enough of that, um, especially when you work at some of the larger consulting groups with you know with these really highly high profile, prestigious experts, you know, you don't really get the chance to hear instances of things that that went wrong. Uh, but I found that um in these more exclusive expert networks, you know, people do share that that's sort of more stories, etc. And that that's been very useful for me as I try to expand my expert witness work.
SPEAKER_00Speak speaking of working with other expert witnesses. Witnesses, have you found yourself interfacing with other expert witnesses during engagements? Uh, do you have somebody who's like an expert in something that's in a related field, but not your field that you end up either working together on or working alongside of? Do you work with other expert witnesses during engagements?
Timelines, Documents, and Deadlines
SPEAKER_02Um, yes. That situation has arisen. You know, sometimes on bigger cases, um, you know, even on the same side, you have several different experts who are working on different facets of a particular case. So, you know, in an MA case, you know, you might imagine that that there could be an industry expert on that specific industry sector, but there will also be uh more of a valuation slash damages expert. There might be another expert on another technical issue on the contract, or maybe a legal expert. So certainly I have I have worked on those types of cases. You know, typically I've supported one of the experts, but have been on calls with the other ex with the other experts as well. You know, there there are there can be challenges in those situations in that you you do have to be really careful to ensure that none of the experts um contradict each other. You know, the experts are obviously they're talking about different fields, so you know, not necessarily an obvious contradiction in terms of you know how to conduct a specific analysis, but more, you know, indirectly, you know, are they are they contradicting each other with regards to the big picture? You know, is a it's a concept that one expert is espousing does it kind of uh contradict what somebody else is is saying. Also are they are they sort of proposing different theories of of the case, for example? Um and you do I mean you do have to be really careful to avoid that. I find that sometimes, you know, in these cases, especially if you've got a tight deadline, you know, everyone is so focused on working on their own part of the project, and you say, well, at the end we'll we'll sort of check that there are no um conflicts. But then, you know, this this always tends to arise at the last minute and can cause a bit of a scramble to sort of rewrite parts of each expert's report to ensure that you're you're all aligned. So you you do need at least one one person in charge of overseeing all the reports. Um someone who's maybe not super in the details on each of the buckets, but you know, can can oversee everything and and check that um you're you're you're all at sync, that all the experts are in sync. You know, the attorneys technically uh do this as well, but you know, I think I think as uh the consultant um you do need to provide that service to to attorneys um because that's that's an important issue that the other side would pick up on for sure.
SPEAKER_00Speaking of last-minute scrambles, when you're engaged as an expert, do you feel that you're typically given enough time to do the thing that you're being hired to do? Or do you feel that sometimes, boy, I wish you had hired me a couple of weeks ago or a month ago. Give me a little more time to write this report or to get the answers that you're looking for, do a little research. What's your experience been?
Building Trust with Attorneys
SPEAKER_02Well, you know, if you have a really good attorney, they should know to uh to hire you with with enough time. But, you know, frankly, yes. I mean, many, many attorneys, especially maybe smaller firms, maybe more limited resources, do have a tendency to hire experts at the last minute. You know, I have received even if I have received many, many requests, you know, over the last year or two, uh, you know, for a one-week turnaround. You know, they've really contacted you at the last minute. They don't have their act together in terms of giving you all the documents you need. And, you know, thankfully, in those in many of those cases, you know, the case settled or you know they ended up not needing expert testimony, which is, you know, frankly, a bit of a relief because I think it would have been difficult to get what they were asking done in the very short time frame. And, you know, again, with the lack of lack of ability to provide all the all the relevant documents. Um, but you know, unfortunately, I I do see this. I think in general, attorneys should uh pay a little bit more attention. You know, if they if they think they're going to need an expert, uh, they really have to uh to line that expert up uh with enough time in advance. And again, time and time again, I see that you know, bad documents are not necessarily always shared right up front. You they really need to give you all the information they have as soon as they can, because otherwise this this arises at the last minute, it can be a scramble to figure out how to get around those issues. So yeah, I think attorneys could still do a little bit better in this regard.
SPEAKER_00Uh moving on to the general, tell me about what makes a great expert attorney relationship, not only given getting off on the right foot, which we talked about a little bit, but maintaining that good give and take, that a quality, uh a quality relationship that's efficient and effective, and maybe even a little bit of fun uh throughout the engagement.
Final Advice for New Experts
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean it's this is a people business, you know, and it it's it's it's a business that's based on on trust. So really being able to establish that trust very early on with the attorney you're working with, that that's the most crucial part. And so I think in order to engender trust, you know, I I try to be as um open and communicative and responsive as possible. And so I would expect that of the attorney too. Um they need you if there if a problem arises, you know, they need to tell you as soon as possible. You know, I mentioned bad documents, you know, if if if there's some negative piece of information, they need to tell you as soon as possible, you know, don't withhold that, don't tell the expert at the last minute. Um, just establish really open communication lines. You know, that's that's related to you know having a mutual respect and understanding, you know, respecting the fact the expert, respecting the position you put the expert in, right? Not not trying to force the expert to go out of his or her scope, um, you know, not trying to squeeze in diff, you know, changes to their opinion at the last minute. Again, I I have experienced this, unfortunately, with uh with some attorneys, you know, on the day of filing, you know, trying to make somewhat material changes to the language of the expert report. And, you know, again, you you have to be super careful not to just accept that. Um, you know, I've I've worked for experts, so you you kind of have to be the gatekeeper of your the consultant to the expert and and make sure that attorneys are not um reshaping your expert's opinion. Um so be being very vigilant of that. But I you know, attorneys should be respectful of experts in that regard and really understand, you know, what is the scope of this expert's report and make sure that the expert stays within their lane. Because, you know, veering out of their lane is one of the ripest areas for attack in cross-examination, if not the if not the biggest area of potential critique for an expert report. Um, you know, they do their best to prepare you for surprise attacks in in cross-examination, you know, really taking the time to do a thorough deposition and trial prep with you if if the case reaches that stage. Um yeah, and I, you know, I think all of that um helps to build mutual understanding, respect, and trust. Um and you know, again, from my side, you know, being as responsive as I can if I'm the expert to their requests, um, or trying to think of ways to improve the report. Um, yeah, really kind of just going going above and beyond and and trying to make life with the attorneys as easy as as we can as well.
SPEAKER_00Before we wrap up, that was all great advice. Do you have any other last advice for newer expert witnesses or attorneys working with experts?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, for newer expert witnesses, again, I'd say um, yeah, I got I heard this great piece of advice at a at a previous conference, so I'll kind of I'll steal it here. But you know, for for for up-and-coming experts, I think the best way to be seen as an expert and to advance in the field is to really act like an expert from day one. So obviously you you still do your day-to-day job, but really you know, act, behave, speak like like an expert, you know, present, think about what an expert would say, think think about think through the questions an expert would ask, think strategically, think think through the weaknesses of your your approach, and you know, communicate those up front, you know, even if you're a junior associate on the team. I think doing all that will change people's perception of you, and they'll they'll really start to think of you as someone who could be an expert down the road. And, you know, again, this this was a pitfall earlier in my career where you know I thought the focus is you know, getting the work done, getting the work done right. Obviously it is, but I just focused on that, um, as opposed to maybe stepping out a little bit and thinking more about the the bigger picture. So this is not just advice for women of color, this is advice for for everyone. Um, you know, step out of the weeds a little bit, you know, don't don't just mechanically go through the work, you know, really think about um what the work is for, uh, what are the bigger questions we need to ask here? How does this work fit into the you know bigger puzzle of the case? Um, and uh really present yourself as thinking through those those issues proactively early on. Um, and that that will really help you advance in this line of work.
Closing & Credits
SPEAKER_00Absolutely sage advice. Dr. Kumar, thank you so much for joining me here today.
SPEAKER_02Thank you, Noah. Appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00And thank you as always to our listeners for joining me for another edition of Engaging Experts. Cheers.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for listening to our podcast, Engaging Experts. Our show notes are available on our website, roundtable group.com.