Engaging with Wine Expert, Melissa Smith

A wine collection can look like a hobby until it lands in a divorce, an estate fight, or a federal case. Then every bottle needs a defensible value, a paper trail, and an explanation that makes sense to people who have never read a wine list in their lives. We sit down with Melissa Smith, founder of Enotrias Elite Sommelier Services, to talk about wine collection appraisal, expert witness testimony, and the real-world mechanics of treating wine as a legal asset.

Melissa walks us through how she went from fine dining to becoming the person attorneys call when inventories, valuations, and credibility matter. We dig into what she now asks on the first phone call, what she deliberately holds back, and why scope and boundaries protect both the expert and the client. We also get specific about expert witness contracts, a simple rate structure, and why a nonrefundable retainer can be the difference between a clean engagement and months of chaos.

Transcript

Sponsor Roundtable Grip

SPEAKER_00 0:02

This episode is brought to you by Roundtable Grip, the experts on experts. We've been connecting attorneys with experts for over 30 years. Find out more at roundtablecrip.com.

Noah Bolmer 0:15

Welcome

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Noah Bolmer 0:16

to Engaging Experts. I'm your host, Snow Ballmer. Today's guest is Melissa Smith, founder of AnoTrious Elite Sommelier Services. Uh, Miss Smith is a writer, speaker, and educator specializing in wine collection appraisals. Miss Smith, thank you so much for joining me here today on Engaging Experts. Thank you for having me. Of course, let's jump into it.

From Fine Dining To Courtroom

Noah Bolmer 0:36

So your background is in fine dining and wine pairing. How did you first become involved in expert witnessing?

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Um, yes, I was a fine dining chef for a while. I became a private chef, and that's when I decided I'd rather get paid to drink for a living. So transitioned to front of the house, went through court of master someliers for my certification, uh, started working at restaurants, and then ended up at this retailer at the time, the largest wine spirits retailer in the country called KL Wine Merchants in Silicon Valley, and was one of the buyers there. And we would get calls for people needing inventories and valuations for different legal purposes. And I ended up having to argue the lack of evaluation of a particular collection and uh for a divorce. And so I was doing that and ended up telling my best friends who were also my attorneys about that experience. And they said, you should turn this into a CLE, a continuing education course for attorneys. And so I did. So I became the first and only provider of an extended um education for attorneys on the valuation of wine collections for primarily family law and trust and states attorneys. And so, on top of being a wine appraiser, I really started specializing in the legal aspect of wine as an asset. And I would often get calls similar to this one, where I would divulge everything I knew and why the other side wouldn't win and why we would. And then they would take that phone call and call their client or the opposing counsel, tell them what I said, and then I would never get hired to be the expert in it. They would just settle. So I learned along the way to keep my mouth shut and only give them the bare minimum. And that um that turned into mini phone calls that would end after a five, 10-minute conversation, I would never get my hopes up about them. And that included a call that I got. I remember a standing in Whole Foods. And um, they just said, Yeah, we're interested in working with you, and what are your rates and blah, blah, blah. And I gave them the information, not expecting to hear back. And then they did call back. And my first official clients was the Department of Justice, and it was in the Fat Leonard trial. So um I was thrown immediately into the deep end, and I studied as much as I possibly could with what was available at the time, and that started my my actual like paid uh position as an expert witness.

Setting Scope And Holding Back

Noah Bolmer 3:38

So I definitely want to hear about the Fat Leonard trial, but first I want to ask you what are those sorts of questions now that you've done this for a while. What questions do you like to ask? What questions do you expect to be asked? And what do you hold back when you're in the initial phone call?

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Well, I definitely like to know the scope. Um, get as much information as I can from them. I really let the clients do the speaking. Um, sometimes I'll be Googling as they're speaking, but I've really tried to set up boundaries about not diving too deep into it. Um, I am very aware, I deal with a lot of attorneys for different purposes, um, that you know, the clock is ticking. And for me as an expert witness and for them and their legal fees, so I am great with a five to 10 minute conversation. Beyond that, I want to make sure that I'm being paid and that the retainer has been sent and we're all in agreement about what services I will be providing.

Noah Bolmer 4:44

So when

Contracts Rates And Retainers

Noah Bolmer 4:45

when when you're developing those agreements, are you starting out with your own contract or do you receive something from the attorney? How do you decide what terms of the contract you're going to have? And also, do you typically have a uh uh non-refundable retainer in your agreements?

SPEAKER_01 5:03

All great questions. Uh, you know, I've been learning as I go. I'm very comfortable with where I'm at now. A lot of people have varying rates for varying things. I have one set rate that I'm very comfortable with uh for the moment that does everything from research to deposition, travel time, um, and then trial time. Um, so that's all one rate for me. And it's kind of a take it or leave it, but I just don't have the bandwidth to be, you know, counting minutes and different rates and whatnot. Um I do have a non-refundable retainer. It's typically five or 10 hours, depending on the client and their needs. Um, so that's kind of the only negotiation that I entertain is how many hours of a retainer for them to pay up front. Uh, but I have that all set up. I'd created, you know, one at the beginning, just as I had with my contract for my business doing wine appraisals that I had kind of created with the help of my attorney friends. And then through trial and error and difficult clients, I have to tweak it every single time with the attorneys. It's much more straightforward for expert witness retainers and contracts.

Noah Bolmer 6:24

All right.

Fat Leonard And Luxury Bribes

Noah Bolmer 6:25

So I want to get into this. You were involved in an extremely famous trial. So can you set this up for our uh listeners?

SPEAKER_01 6:33

Yeah, essentially, Leonard Francis was selling contracts to the U.S. Navy for I call them parking spots for our naval ships up and down the entire um longitude from essentially northern Japan through Australia. And in doing so, he would be whining and dining top naval officials and uh also providing prostitutes, but I could not speak as an expert witness on those, just the wine and fine dining. Um, so I was, you know, I'm I'm one of the only Somalias that has a food background and fine dining background. So my ability to talk about the luxury ingredients that were used and the wines and spirits that were used to bribe the top naval officials is why they brought me in, because it was in front of a jury of civilians. And so we had to, you know, make them understand what foie garage was or what different way uh grades of Wagyu, um, the different wines, and basically, you know, it that a $2,600 bottle of wine that that would be equated to, you know, a $775 glass of wine, things like that, that I had to um I had to do. I also had to do a lot of um, you know, historic accounting, forensic accounting, involving, I think it was something like seven different countries and six different currencies in that. And um, you know, flying down for secret meetings in San Diego for deposition preparation and things like that. Um one of the incredibly interesting things that we learned and and the public may or may not know was that um the podcasters uh snuck in a microphone to Leonard Francis's home that he'd been living in under um the DOJ surveillance for many, many years and recorded this entire podcast under their nose. Um so you know, halfway through working with them, they just said, Hey, Melissa, by the way, this is going to be coming out. You may as well listen to it. We've learned a lot from listening to it, and you will too. Um so that was interesting because I was also, you know, working under secrecy where I couldn't tell my, you know, friends and family what I was working on. And then this podcast comes out revealing more than any of us knew. So I would kind of hint like, hey, there's a really interesting podcast you might want to listen to. It's interesting. It mentions wine. So uh, but yeah, that was uh that was a big one. I learned so much on that. And I'm I know you've got other questions, but this was one that I think that's just gonna be really valuable um in many ways. One because it was my first real paid gig as an expert witness. Um, but I was going up, I just get chills thinking about it, against like six of the top gnarliest attorneys representing the six naval officials that weren't going to back down and um take a plea bargain. So it was little old me, you know, facing off against these guys. And quite intimidating as it was, you know, other people had turned down the position, or actually one of them got fired from the position that I ended up taking, um, which was another fun story. Um, but you know, I went in there just there's a the story of the buffalo buffalo in the storm, where um, you know, the in the plain lands, the cows will see a storm coming and they'll run away from it and they'll be so exhausted that they can get they can even die from exhaust exhaustion because of the fear. Versus a buffalo will see a storm coming and they'll face it head on and sometimes even run into it and through it to get through it faster. So I'm like, okay, I'm gonna be the buffalo. I'm gonna face these guys. Um, I'm gonna show them who's who's boss and whatnot. Um, which kind of sounds ridiculous when you think of what I was actually being paid to testify about. But um, but then the DOJ that was the main one handling me just said, you know what, you want to educate them and impress them in a way where they're going to want to hire you after for their future cases. And it just it all clicked for me then said, oh, okay. So instead of being this like, you know, badass woman in wine that was gonna show all these men, um, I just like, nope, okay. This is the classy Florida Somalier version of me that's going to educate them in a way that's going to not make them feel stupid, um, but will help guide everyone in the room to understand better these these topics, these ingredients, these wines, whatever.

How She Prepared For Trial

Noah Bolmer 11:58

Tell me a little bit about the preparation for a case like that. Not only is it a big case, but it's one of your first. So you don't necessarily know what to expect in a big proceeding like that. Tell me a little bit about how your attorney uh or your trial team in a case like that probably prepared you for both the deposition and for the trial itself.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

Well, we did, you know, a lot of um video interviews, a lot of phone calls, because anything that you write down has to be admitted. Um, so that was very challenging for me. There were a lot of texts back and forth, like, can you jump on a call? I had a I had um the the person that was actually fired from the role before me um turned into a massive nuisance. And we found out that anonymously he was trying to take me down to Forbes and other publications that had written about me. Um so that was that was really um an unexpected curveball that you know impacted the preparation and whatnot. But a lot of it was just online research that I was having to do. I read a book, I think it's called The Expert Expert Witness. It was like out of public publication, but it was one of the only books at the time that I could find to read to prepare me. And I highlight all of that. I didn't charge for well over 50% of my time just because I was still learning and I didn't feel comfortable charging them um, you know, to learn on their dime, which if I were to do it again, if I were to mentor someone, I'd say, no, charge them for everything. And then probably one of the most unexpected, hilarious, but one of those things I will stick with um forever and constantly revisit is the TV show called The Good Wife. And then they had one called The Good Fight. And the writing for it was so fantastic. And, you know, there's so many law dramas out there, but they all they're just you know about the relationships and the fashion and all of this stuff that isn't really relevant to what attorneys are actually doing in practice. But the good fight and the good wife were, you know, there's so much legal jargon that they used that I was able to really understand it through those. And they had one main character that was an expert witness, I think in ballistics or something like that. And just kind of watching his performance and listening to it. And I watched and rewatched the series at least three times to become comfortable with it, you know, versus a show like suits. I'm like, this is this is like nothing having to do with with actual legal work. Um, so you know, every time I get ready for another fairly big trial, sometimes I'll watch a few episodes just to kind of refresh my memory about the proceedings. But overall, most of them end up settling and I don't end up going on the witness stand, but it's still really good information.

Noah Bolmer 15:11

You know, one of my favorite questions I like to ask my guests is uh, do you have any free trial, pre-deposition, pre-big day routine that just gets you in the right headspace? I've had guests who like to listen to heavy metal or drink a lot of coffee or do yoga. Is there something that gets you ready to go?

SPEAKER_01 15:28

God, I wish I listened to yoga. Um listen to yoga. I wish I did yoga. I I, you know, I do kettlebells and um listen to gangster rap. And uh I've got a few of the songs I'm feeling myself and um things like that I'll do. But overall, I'm so busy in my life with all of my different projects and businesses, I just kind of stay in the zone where I'm just like, get ready. You know, I'm highly caffeinated, and sometimes I'll have a glass of wine or tequila at the ready just to calm my nerves. But overall, um no, I just I sometimes I'll skim through my notes. But um, this is one of those things where if you're the expert in your industry and you know it inside and out, all the stuff for the most part should be committed to memory.

Zoom Testimony And Time Limits

Noah Bolmer 16:20

Let's talk a little bit about the role in general. You've been doing this for a while. What kinds of changes, if any, have you seen since you first started expert witnessing? Have you noticed a change with technology? Maybe video conferencing has changed things or anything logistically? What kinds of changes have you seen?

SPEAKER_01 16:38

That's a great question. I don't know that I've seen, you know, this company that we're doing the podcast for. That's been amazing. Um, you know, seek that they're doing continuing to do um more class online classes and things like that that are available. That's really interesting to me. As far as other changes in technologies, I think the ability, honestly, to be able to uh appear via Zoom is amazing. I've have some clients where they insist I have to be in public. There was one I was uh expert witness for a trial uh against one of the top gangster rappers in the in the world. And at the time I was in Tunisia and um they wanted me to at least be on domestic ground to do my depositions and everything like that. So um that was fine because then they had to pay for the flights and whatnot. But being able to really live on the West Coast or the East Coast or be in Europe and be able to appear on Zooms, do preparation, things like that has been super, super helpful.

Noah Bolmer 17:50

How is it different interacting with people on a Zoom versus in person? Do you have to keep your gaze locked on the camera or do you have to present yourself any differently? What are some of the differences?

SPEAKER_01 18:02

I mean, I'm wearing pants for this, but um, you know, I um I always try to appear professional no matter what I'm doing. Um and so, you know, that's something that hasn't hasn't changed.

Noah Bolmer 18:20

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

Making sure that you're you're muted when you're supposed to be muted, and then, you know, the side texts and different alerts that you might be getting at the same time, having to navigate those and make sure that they're coming in when they're supposed to or not coming in when they're not supposed to. Um that's all fairly challenging to manage. Um and then, you know, just managing timelines. There's times where I've been the opposing counsel only wants to pay for two hours of my time. So it's a firm cutoff with them versus when we're managing the deposition for the other party, and I had had one go on so long I was able to pay my mortgage after five hours, and by hour six, I'm waiting in the garden and drinking rose. So it's you just you never know. You've just got to be prepared.

Noah Bolmer 19:18

Yeah, absolutely. Block out the time. Do you use any? Are there any particular tools that work for you? Do you like to use Outlook Calendar or anything Trello, something like that? Is there anything that that uh any software that you like to use that helps you keep on time?

SPEAKER_01 19:34

You know, these are all great questions. Um I use Google Suite for everything, but I have to say, I am self-taught with all of this. I don't have any peers. I the one person that was a peer was the same one that tried to take me down um in very dirty ways because he was the one that got fired from the DOJ trial. So I don't have people to ask. The closest I have, even as a wine appraiser, is taking fine art classes um through the top appraisers associations. I don't know any other expert witness witnesses.

Navigating A Niche Without Peers

Noah Bolmer 20:17

Um it's such a niche. Do you find yourself across the table frequently from the same people? Like, do you know everybody who is an expert wine appraiser slash sommelier slash you know, uh uh fine dining chef?

SPEAKER_01 20:33

I only know them because of when I look in the mirror, there are two gentlemen that I know that are kind of in the same realm and and level of respect, but they don't get a lot of expert witness work. There's one woman that everybody knows that um gets a fair amount of it. And then there's this this guy that uh has kind of gotten himself blacklisted. So I don't um it's as a wine appraiser and an expert witness, I do not have people that I can turn to. I don't have, you know, this is all stuff. Thank God for Chat GPT now, you know, I can ask it questions, but otherwise, I did not have people I could turn to and ask questions. And the ones that I could turn to wanted me to just send them my contracts, which I'm not gonna do. Um, so it's uh it's uh it's challenging. So I'm so thrilled that this podcast is available. Uh, I'm sure there's other uh other expert witnesses in different industries that I'll be able to learn from just from listening to this.

Noah Bolmer 21:44

Absolutely. Uh let's talk about different types of cases. Have you worked in a variety of different venues, such as you know, different states, courts, criminal, et cetera? And if so, how is it different as an expert witness working in one from one venue to the next?

SPEAKER_01 21:58

Not a lot. Different, um, you know, the the zoom timings and coordinating schedules is a challenge. But I've done most of it gets to be remote, which is awesome. Um, as far as different states, it's generally major states on the West Coast and the East Coast, so not a big deal with that. Um, and then the different realms, it's more how much the attorney knows, you know, if it's a family law case or if it's corporate litigation, or you know, as I mentioned, that there's the DOJ, and then I've got, you know, one of the top gangster rappers in the industry and people involved with those businesses. So everyone, all my clients come in with varying levels of understanding education and background, which is great because most of them are very good at handling their experts and asking basic questions without making themselves, you know, sound ignorant and um really wanting to be educated, but then allowing me to shine and doing what I do.

Boundaries And Client Relationships

Noah Bolmer 23:12

Absolutely. Let's talk a little bit about relationships. Expert witnessing is ultimately a series of relationships. How do you get started on the right foot and mote and maintain that momentum uh during an engagement?

SPEAKER_01 23:25

This is something I had to remind myself of, but also the um opposing counsel that I was up against uh when he started complaining that he was in a deposition for it was over six hours at the time. Like we are being paid for our time and we are being paid handsomely. This is probably more than he's made in weeks of work in one day. Um, so reminding myself, I'm getting paid more as an expert witness than I am for any other service I provide. And then also just setting up boundaries because one of my last clients, um I was it felt like I was at their back and call with the text messages and the phone calls and needing to jump on Zooms and review photos and all of that. And I'm keeping track of all of that, you know, my spreadsheet with my time timelines and everything, um, time tracking. But really just saying, you know, if we're gonna talk about this, that it needs to be much more structured or maybe even build in like an emergency rate, you know, when they need someone, when they need you to drop everything you're doing to take a call in a quiet location, away from friends and family. Um yeah, that's that's the stuff that I think I've had to learn is really setting up those boundaries.

Noah Bolmer 24:51

Do you often get requests for those ultra condensed timelines?

SPEAKER_01 24:56

Um, sometimes I kind of feel like pat myself on the back, but that I'm kind of the big guns. So sometimes when it gets down to something and they're like, we need to really tilt this, um, then they'll they'll hire me at the last minute to help their case. So that can happen sometimes. Otherwise, I feel like I get fairly good lead up time.

Noah Bolmer 25:24

Let's talk a little bit about other stories. I we we we heard the big one. Are there any other stories that you can think of that either fundamentally change something you do vis-a-vis expert witnessing or reinforce something that you were already doing?

SPEAKER_01 25:39

As with most cases, I could very easily argue both sides. Um, you know, sometimes I'm hired by the counsel that I'm actually root rooting for the other guy. There's no way that, you know, I'm gonna let them know that. And whatever my opinion is, I'm arguing in no way will you know, sway it one way or another. Otherwise, I wouldn't take it. Um, but it's uh it's really interesting and I think very important to get a holistic view of what's actually going on. Um and a lot of that you don't find out until you're in the trial. Um so yeah, there's one that we ended up losing when I felt terrible about what I found out years later that you know they'd lost their entire retirement and um and had nothing, and that we ended up having friends in common um when they lost that one, which certainly wasn't my fault. But when you have such a close relationship in the industry and it's a fairly small industry, it's hard to not let those things affect you.

Noah Bolmer 26:53

How

Vetting Experts And Final Advice

Noah Bolmer 26:54

about any uh red flags or bad experiences or any learning experiences?

SPEAKER_01 26:59

Um, just making sure you're on top of your retainer and that those are all being paid and that you're very firm in not performing more work until you've been made whole is is I think the biggest thing. Um yeah, making sure I'll just say I learned this for other people. Um you know, making sure that whatever is written down that you can stand by. I just I had this come up um in one of my other trials, and we're deposing the expert on the other side, and they had intercepted some text messages about me that were amazing, uh, but also very humbling for them and had to um at the end of the deposition, they ended up having to kind of rescind their thoughts on how great they were.

Noah Bolmer 27:59

Uh, before we wrap up, do you have any last advice for expert witnesses or even attorneys that are working with experts?

SPEAKER_01 28:06

Ask questions, you know, let the other side speak. See what they can educate you on, make sure it's not all about them and how great they are. If they're, you know, if they're on their own soapbox and talking about that versus showing you their work and what they're capable of. Maybe, you know, take that into consideration. Always make sure and not to uh make this anti-men or anything, but they are who they say they are, not that they're just pretending to have the qualifications that they uh are being hired for. I think that this came up in one of my last ones where um they assumed because he was an advanced level sommelier that that was equivalent to a mask to a wine appraiser. Um, and we are being hired to appraise wine. And I've worked as a restaurant sommelier, but I've concentrated my expertise on wine appraisals and legal work. And that is that is what I do. I would not, you know, try to people assume I'm a master sommelier, and like, no, those people are actually crazy uh with their um ability to do what they do. Um, you know, and so I have different certifications than perhaps a restaurant sommelier, one that's focused their career on being a restaurant sommelier has. But that is why I am at the top of the industry for what I do. Um, I'm not going to pretend to be something I'm not. And I think that that's incredibly important to really figure out who your expert is and what their capabilities are so that when they are being grilled, you know, in a deposition or in the witness stand, that they'll be able to say what they do with pride and back that up and not back down from that. And that's definitely something that I watched that young gentleman learn in this last trial.

Noah Bolmer 30:19

Sage

Cheers And Closing

Noah Bolmer 30:20

advice. Ms. Smith, thank you so much for joining me here today.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

You are so very welcome. Thank you for having me.

Noah Bolmer 30:26

And thank you as always to our listeners for joining us for another edition of Engaging Experts. Cheers.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

Thank you for listening to our podcast, Engaging Experts. Our show notes are available on our website, roundcore group.com.