Engaging with Entertainment Management Expert, David Ciemny

In this episode…

One bad contract clause, one opaque tour settlement, one “quick” call that turns into free strategy and suddenly a music business dispute is in court. We sit down with David Ciemny, CEO of Ciemny Inc., to talk about what expert witness work looks like in the entertainment industry and why it demands more than general business knowledge. David shares how a high-profile case opened the door, how he partners with teams like Round Table Group, and what attorneys are really listening for when they interview an expert.

We also go deep on forensic tour accounting, common money pitfalls for artists, and why transparency in financial reporting can prevent disputes with management teams before they explode. 

Transcript

Sponsor And Quick Welcome

SPEAKER_00 0:02

This episode is brought to you by Roundtable Group, the experts on experts. We've been connecting attorneys with experts for over 30 years. Find out more at RoundtableGroup.com.

Noah Bolmer 0:15

Welcome to Engaging Experts. I'm your host, Snow Ballmer, and today I'm excited to welcome David SINI to the show. Mr. SINY is the CEO of SINI Inc., a consulting business development and expert witnesses service firm operating in the music corporate event and direct sales industries. Mr. SINI, welcome to Engaging Experts. Thank you, Noah. Great to be here. Well, let's jump into it. Uh,

First Expert Case In Entertainment

Noah Bolmer 0:38

you have an extensive background in entertainment management, but how did you first become involved in expert witnessing?

SPEAKER_02 0:45

You know what's interesting. Um, I was contacted about a very high-profile case for a musician. Um, in fact, it was a like a wrongful death uh lawsuit for probably one of the biggest entertainers in the entire on earth. And um I did a series of interviews with the legal team, uh, and I basically presented my case, uh, how I would defend the case, what questions I would answer uh I would ask. And uh they they selected me and I did some consulting initially, and then I partnered with Roundtable Group um on a professional level. And uh yeah, there's there's uh been no looking back. It's been a pretty wild uh journey for as far as an expert witness, because I feel like in this specific niche of entertainment, musicians, forensic tour accounting, things of that nature, managers, business managers, all those things, uh, I feel like uh it's a very specialized industry, and not a lot of people are willing to really talk about it or even know, you know, how to, I guess, orchestrate that or demonstrate that for somebody that doesn't necessarily know the industry.

Vetting Cases With A Moral Test

Noah Bolmer 1:57

Well, let's talk a little bit about that uh interview process. When you first get a call and you out of the blue, an attorney, a paralegal, an assistant, somebody calls you up and they say, Hey, I need somebody in this particular niche. How do you vet them to make sure that this is an engagement that uh you actually want to take?

SPEAKER_02 2:13

Well, that's a great question. And I that's what I love about Roundtable Group. They send a nice little description about what the case is about, roughly. Um, and then uh you can sort of match your skill set to the case specifically. And then what they'll do is they'll then send an even deeper brief that kind of really goes through it. Um, and once you get on with the with the attorneys, uh, I feel like you get a pretty good sense. For me personally, Noah. What I want to know is do I feel like I'm on the right side of this? And that's my biggest litmus test. It's not so much the skill set because most of the things that come across my desk, I'm a pretty good match for. And if I'm not, I'll say it. But as long as I'm a good match, but most importantly, I want to feel like I'm on the right side of the case. I never want to feel like, you know, I'm in a position where I have to just morally or ethically make a decision that wouldn't come natural.

Noah Bolmer 3:12

So when you say the right side, you mean you mean morally the right side, not necessarily the side that will ultimately prevail. Correct.

SPEAKER_02 3:20

I mean, I want to feel like if I'm, let's say, representing a defendant, right? I want to make sure that um I believe that that defendant is in the right, right, for defending whatever happened. Or if I'm, you know, on the other side, I want to make sure that when if if if if I'm on the side that's going after somebody, I want to make sure that I feel that that is justified. I just I want to have a more it's very important for me to be able, if I'm gonna sit on a witness stand, if I'm gonna write an expert report, if I'm gonna be deposed, I want to feel like I'm the quote unquote right side of the law. I want to feel like I'm defending the right type of client or the right kind of person, knowing that they were wronged, if you will.

Noah Bolmer 4:04

What about some of the more mechanical things like making sure that you have enough time and uh making sure you know you're in a in a venue that you're familiar with? What about some of the other issues that ultimately compel you to say yes or no to a uh to an engagement?

SPEAKER_02 4:19

Yeah, I think uh having the right venue is important. What I do is I'll I'll look at the specific case and I'll ask myself, if there was there a time in my career that I could directly relate to the exact specificity of this case? What what did I ever see any other scenarios where I could I I I look at myself before I take a case, no, I look at myself and I go, if I were on a witness stand and there was a jury and there were and I was getting grilled from the other side, could I have a bulletproof, you know, testimony? Could I could I stand there with a clean conscience and say, yes, I have seen this before, and here's what the outcome was, and here's how I feel, and could I justify that? Now you mentioned the right sort of venue or skill set. There are some fringe areas where something might cross over to a category that maybe I've I've delved into, but it maybe it's not my main vertical. Um, in that case, I'll do a little bit of research on my own and and just sort of I might I might even talk to my friends in a hypothetical situation um who do that specific thing just to kind of say, hey, am I am I off base here? Again, not with uh obviously not with disclosing any type of specificity into the the the the case itself, but I I want to bounce it off a few people and say, is this sort of where my brain's at? And more often than not, I'll get that kind of confirmation. Oh yeah, you're you're right on the right pathway, and then I'll feel more inclined to take the case, and I'll feel like my position will be supported, you know, by case law or facts, you know.

Retainers And The First Call Trap

Noah Bolmer 5:59

Let's talk about engagement letters a little bit or contracts. Do you have any particular terms that you like to have to protect yourself? For instance, do you have a non-refundable retainer? Do you have project rates versus hourly rates, travel rates? Tell me a little about the structure of your contract.

SPEAKER_02 6:15

Well, you know, I I probably am one of those like non-jaded experts where I just look at every case where I like, I just want to do it. Part of it is because I get really into it. It's it's a kind of a nice distraction from my normal daily routine to get into a case, much like serving on a jury is kind of interesting to some people. I I get into it. And so I don't really fuss on the money. I kind of I'll ask, you know, round table, ask them, hey, you know, I I don't know where their budget is. Am I in the right ballpark? And as long as we're in the right ballpark, I may ask for a non-refundable initial retainer, but I'll make it a little lower, it being non-refundable, just not to scare them off. My biggest issue that I've encountered is this whole idea. And I actually, you know, it's it's it's something to discuss, but it's this whole idea of do you tell the client too much on that inner first interview, or do you not tell them enough? And I feel like I have at some points just sort of spilled my guts all over and told them everything and kind of it was like, Well, why do I need to hire this guy? He just basically told us our entire position. And so I I I always want to be cautious, but I also, you know, I want to I I want to underpromise over deliver. I want to make sure that uh they know very clearly one, I'm justified in being on the right side, right? The position that they're on. And number two, I want them to know I'm the right guy for the job. And it just the the only way I can think to do that is to give them very specific instances um and experience that I have. And if it's it's it's I've probably been burned more than a few times where oh, they didn't call back or oh, they settled, or what have you. And I've been a a bounce pad. I I think it I think there there's got to be something to this idea of maybe charging for that initial consult, kind of, kind of like how lawyers, you know, how lawyers will say, We'll get you on the phone, and it's a free consultation. Um, but I don't know, we might want to rethink that in the industry a little bit.

Noah Bolmer 8:14

That is a fine line to walk, and you're certainly not the first expert who has said as much. In fact, I've heard from a few that they are in such a small niche that there's only one or two of them, and as soon as the other side gets wind that they've retained a particular witness that immediately, you know, drives it to settlement.

SPEAKER_02 8:31

No, I'm still navigating that and I'm learning kind of the hard way. I think it's just like any business, you have to learn by experience and you have to kind of ask yourself, okay, I've retained, you know, three jobs, I've I've not retained 10 or 12 that I was perfect for. What's going on here? What's the pattern? And I think you just have to kind of like you said, it's a fine line. I think you have to tow that line. Um, let them know. And I think I think what I did in my last uh my last one was I said, um, if I'm retained, I can do XYZ. If you retain me, I'll help you with XYZ. So I make it a little bit more of a a sales pitch, if you will, to justify the expenditure. Because I know this is not a small budget item to hire an expert witness, but I also know expert witnesses win cases, right? Or by contrast, they lose cases too, if you don't have the right expert. And so therefore, I think um, I think it's our job as experts to really justify our worth. Um, the net net, right? What are you gonna get from me? How much time? And the last team I interviewed with, in fact, they said as much. They said, you know, in their brains, I planted a seed that said, I'm gonna save you guys a ton of time on the back end, stuff that you that you don't even want to pretend to know about. I'm gonna spell it out for you. In fact, I even went so far as to say, listen, um, I'm gonna give you all kinds of prompts of things you can ask the other side that are gonna make this thing cut and dry. Um, and that really helped. Well, didn't get retained on that one, but boy, I thought I was.

Noah Bolmer 10:06

Um, let's

Digital Files And AI In Legal Work

Noah Bolmer 10:07

talk about you've been doing this for a little while now, uh actually quite a while now. How have you seen expert witnessing in general change? Has AI changed things? Has telepresence changed things? Did COVID change things?

SPEAKER_02 10:20

Okay, well, when I first started, uh everything was not digital. And so I've seen a shift from, you know, I remember one of my first big cases with a major mega pop star that was like a one-year-long case. I remember I would have to take file big legal file boxes. They'd ship them to my front door and I'd pile them in the back of my Land Rover, and I'd tell my wife, hey babe, I gotta leave for the weekend. And I would go to like a flea bag motel in the middle of the valley and just pile the boxes, like stack them high. I'd have like 8,000 post-it notes, and it'd be like, All right, I'm just gonna zone in and just lock in and like sort them and sift them. Now it's just so digital, everything is tracked digitally. Um, it's honestly a lot easier, I will say. Um searchable, yeah. And the second shift that I've noticed has just been, you know, chat GPT AI is truly changing the game. Um, you know, a buddy of mine who's a very prominent immigration lawyer, um, you know, I asked him, I kicked him around a couple questions, and he said, Hey, he goes, You need to go to the law school of Chat GPT, and I was like, Oh, bro. And sure enough, every single subject that I've ever broached with Chat GPT, like it's not even it never even has to think about it, Noah. It'll spit out a full freaking legal brief in like two seconds. You're like, how is this possible? So I feel more more so I feel for the lawyers because I don't know how you quantify, you know, writing, you know, complaints or uh certainly, you know, when it comes to an expert, a report has to be extremely specialized, in my opinion. And I can't say that I've used Chat GBT for a report at all ever. Um, but I did use it for reference material, which was incredible. So for me, it's helped look look up case law, it's helped um look up uh resources, third-party resources and books and things that maybe I didn't know were around, things that I could read that would support my case. So from a from that standpoint, it's just gotten better and easier and quite frankly, a time saver.

Noah Bolmer 12:33

I also want to just throw in my usual disclaimer to all expert witnesses. If you plan on using AI, make sure you check with your attorney because there are disclosure requirements in uh most, if not all, jurisdictions these days. So something to look out for. Um, and how do you see the role evolving into the future? Um, as we hit all of this technology, what do you think is next?

SPEAKER_02 12:55

I think honestly, where my gut is, is there's never gonna be a replacement for um true real-world experience and a CV. I think your CV, your background is going to speak volumes. And, you know, I have this kind of this little joke with myself where it seems like a lot of these experts that I work with, specifically in the music industry, are kind of over the hill. For example, I worked for this uh major pop star, and the other side's expert witness was, you know, sort of uh this sort of 70s rock and roll thing. And I thought, oh, this is such a great distinction because that guy's experience is 70s rock and roll. Mine is, you know, 2000s pop music touring the world. Well, it just so happened that the case was about a pop star, right? So, you know, I feel like uh you're there you should never we we charge what we charge for a reason because we have the skill set, and you can't AI and all the technology in the world um is is is not going to be uh taking the place of how eloquent of a speaker you are, how sharp your brain is on the subject matter. Uh anyone could write a report in using technology if they needed to, the same way that somebody could write a book um and and plagiarize and do all those things, but nothing will ever take the place of a brain that's had decades of experience in your specific vertical, and therefore that is why expert witnesses will always have a role, will always have a place, and will always command, you know, a good solid, you know, fee for your services.

Why Expert Witness Work Matters

Noah Bolmer 14:40

Earlier, you had mentioned the uh importance of morality in being an expert witness and deciding whether or not you're going to take the engagement in the first place. Along those lines, and more generally, what do you find meaningful about being an expert witness? Or put another way, why are expert witnesses important?

SPEAKER_02 15:00

You know, every case I've been, and I'll use this as a little plug, um, every case I've worked on, I've been on the right side. We've won. We've we've we and and for me that means I'm morally doing the right thing. So for example, if I'm working for a major um, let's say music star, and let's say that music star has been, let's say, taken advantage of financially, right, by XYZ sources, and I can get behind it and I read every email, every communication, all the depositions, and I go, wow, they were really screwing this girl over. It feels good at the end of the day, the same way it would on a jury. It feels good that we have the law and the justice system here in the United States for all its flaws, that we have a recourse, that people can actually get on the right side and and that's and that and that a judge and a jury will decide, hey, there are damages here, you were harmed in this, and make it right. And I I just I love that. And I even Noah, all the way down to like small claims court, you know, um, to to the guy that that messed up my house and agreed to paint my house for X amount of dollars, and he messed it up, and I went to small claims and I blew up a major board and I took pictures of the entire house of all the mess ups and how it was ruined. And I literally, the judge said, What and I held up the sign, and the judge literally said, Sir, is this your work? And he said, Well, yeah. And he said, So you never finished the job? And he said, Well, no, I wanted more money. He said, But you agree to do it for XYZ? Well, yes, but he didn't pay me the more money I wanted. Boom, case dismissed, full refund. Like, that is amazing to me, dude. Like, it's so crazy that we have for all its flaws, for all its flaws, we have every single person. If you have been harmed or you have been wrong, I sound like a uh accident attorney here, but if you've been hard and you've been wronged, you have an option, you have a recourse, you don't have to just suck it up and take it. So I just that's where I get fired up about it.

Staying In The Loop On Outcomes

Noah Bolmer 17:12

Do you typically follow cases to their conclusion once your portion is done? Because a lot of people might not realize that expert witnesses only, you know, often will serve a tiny slice of the entirety of the action that got get brought in at some point and then they're done. So, how do you go about finding out the final disposition of a case? Do your lawyers typically contact you? Do you contact them? Tell me about it.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

Always I reach out to them. Um, in fact, while a case is ongoing, I'm reaching out as well. Um, how's it going? Is there anything you need? Um, I want to know what's going on, and obviously I want to know where it ends. Um in larger cases, let's just say, uh, those become public record. Those uh oftentimes, those cases are very widely uh they're widely uh publicized. Uh in one instance, I had a team call me and invite me down to uh LA. Uh they said, we want you to come to the W hotel. And I said, Okay. And they said, Come to the very top of the hotel. It was the whole legal team. We need to talk to you. And I walked in and it was like they were popping bottles and stuff because we won the case. But it was like they said, Your your testimony was critical to winning this case. And so uh I felt like uh the the the man of the hour. It was a great, it was a great feeling to be a clinch, like a you know, a linchpin in a case, um, and to have done such a great job and you know helped me buy, you know, another house. And it was it was a lot of money, but at the same time, like I felt like I was on the right side. It was just triumphant moment for me, and it gives me that satisfaction, you know.

Noah Bolmer 18:52

Are

Forensic Tour Accounting And Transparency

Noah Bolmer 18:53

there any other tent pull cases or seminal moments in your career as an expert witness that either redefine something that you do, changed your mind about something, or even reinforce something that you were already doing? Obviously, we know you can't give a lot of specifics out.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Yeah, I think the biggest thing that's come up is and a lot of it has to do with financial. And I do a lot of forensic tour accounting. I go through the books, I look at who was paid what, what percentages, who was taking advantage of whom. And quite frankly, one of the things we see on a regular basis where I get retained is artists or musicians or entertainers, actors, they have management teams, they have business management teams, they have booking agents, and everyone gets paid regardless. And then whatever's left over at the end of the day for the actual artist, that's up for discretion. And I feel like for me, one of the things that this career has done has really helped me be more proactive with the clients I manage and I represent to make sure that there's complete transparency across the board when it comes to the books and the finances. Um, and and also the warning flags of things aren't going well for them. You know, hey, this month, there's a reason why. Um, your overhead is high, you're you're paying XYZ. And I think just transparency in accounting and and and that would solve so many problems. And now when I consult, that's one of the biggest areas of of of consulting, uh, whether it be with artists who are looking for new management or who you know uh disputes, things like that. The first thing I ask is, were they were they transparent with the books? Were you able to log in? Did they send you regular reports? Um, do you know where your money went? And that's the number one, number one thing.

Red Flags During Expert Interviews

Noah Bolmer 20:42

Speaking of red flags, are there any engagement red flags that you can think of that, oh boy, this I thought this was going well, but all of a sudden this happened, and I'm just not so sure. And if so, what do you do about it?

SPEAKER_02 20:54

Well, yeah, I mean, again, I go back to the the thing where the initial interview I found if it's 20 to 30 minutes, that's about right. Anything over about 30 minutes, you start to get in a territory where they're asking a lot of questions, and now you kind of go, All right, this should not have gone past about 20 minutes. It's a chance you've already seen my CV, you know my experience, you already probably have already decided I'm the guy for the job. Maybe you're interviewing others, but anything beyond that, you're milk in the pot. And so those are the red flags. If it goes beyond 20, 30 minutes, that initial interview, that initial zoom where I meet the team. Um, I start to get red flags if they're asking too many questions. And so, and I've had that happen. Um, I prefer here's a little tip if you're an expert witness, I prefer a Zoom where I can look at them on you know in the eyes and see who they are, see what kind of office they're in, as as as small of a detail as that sounds. I found the ones where it was just on a phone call, um, where it was a team. I I I don't know. I feel like um they felt a little bit more empowered to ask more questions for free. And on A Zoom, I felt like I've had a little bit more control to be able to orchestrate my position without you know giving them the entire case that they need.

Zoom Versus In Person Testimony

Noah Bolmer 22:24

Do you feel the same way about telepresence generally? Do you prefer telepresence or in-person uh depositions or trials for for instance?

SPEAKER_02 22:33

I prefer in-person, um, mainly because well, I get paid, right, to go in person, uh, and I like to travel, and that's just me. But I also feel like in person I can read a room. I want to know who's in the room. I don't like Zoom depositions, I just never have. But that's unfortunately, or fortunately, that's how a lot of them are done now. And it's just due to finances and logistics and all the things, but um, I still prefer in-person. I like to be able to read a room. Um, and I've had my best performances, if you will, because that's what these are, they're performances. Let's let's cut to the chase. You're you're performing and you're you're working. Um, I've had my best results uh with in-person.

Noah Bolmer 23:19

Before

Rates Marketing And Final Advice

Noah Bolmer 23:20

you wrap up, do you have any last advice for experts or attorneys working with experts?

SPEAKER_02 23:25

Yeah, I mean, I think just be respectful of uh respectful of your own time and their time, but more importantly, protect your protect your your you are your own most valuable asset. Protect that. Uh, don't cut your worth down because you feel like you're too expensive. I I had a um a rate sheet that uh let's just say was more than probably five years old, and I just hadn't updated it, just hadn't even thought to. Um, and uh I found out uh what uh ultimately the rate, the going rate was, and I I had to backpedal. So just know that like it is okay for you to charge what you need to charge. And if they don't want to pay it, um, they won't. And that's okay. Protect your value, protect your worth. Uh, your sanity is worth more than getting involved in something that um once the pressure's on and you're gonna have to perform, um, you need to get compensated for it. So that's probably my best advice, other than marketing yourself. You should be on every, you know, every single social media platform. I actually have a website, Noah, called rockstarnetworker.com. Um, I don't monetize it at all. It's free. There's a free download there, and it helps expert witnesses um and people in my specific industry market themselves via social media. I would encourage you to do a Google search um of yourself, find out what's out there um if you haven't already. Um, but feel free to go to rockstarnetworker.com and download my 15-page ebook on how to 10x your exposure um in whatever industry you're in. Mine is geared toward the music industry, but whatever industry you're in, this also works. So you are your own best advocate and your own best marketer.

Noah Bolmer 25:17

Stage

Thanks And Where To Find Notes

Noah Bolmer 25:18

advice, and we'll definitely check it out. Mr. Sime, thank you so much for joining me here today. Thank you, Noah, for having me. It was a pleasure. And thank you, as always, to our listeners for joining us for another edition of Engaging Experts. Cheers.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

Thank you for listening to our podcast, Engaging Experts. Our show notes are available on our website, roundtable group.com.