Worship and Leadership by LifePoint Creative
This podcast was intended to resource our Dream Teamers at LifePoint Church, with biblical fundamentals on worship, life and a variety of leadership principles.
Worship and Leadership by LifePoint Creative
The Heart of a Leader
Unlock the secrets of impactful leadership with Pastor Mike Burnette as he takes us on a journey from his early days as a youth pastor to becoming a seasoned leader in ministry. Ever wondered how leaders balance vulnerability with authority or navigate the tension between vision and resources? Pastor Mike shares invaluable insights and personal experiences that illuminate the profound responsibility of guiding others to a transformative relationship with Jesus. You'll gain a deeper understanding of leadership as influence and discover the importance of vision, resilience, and integrity in steering a volunteer-based organization toward its mission.
Reflect on the challenges faced at different stages of leadership, from the youthful trials of one's twenties to the seasoned resilience required in later years, and find inspiration to navigate your own leadership journey with wisdom and grace. Whether you're a seasoned leader or just starting out, you'll find practical wisdom and inspiration to lead with integrity, confidence, and a servant's heart. Join us for an episode brimming with heartfelt anecdotes, practical advice, and a clear vision for the future of leadership in ministry.
Hey, what's up everybody, and welcome to Worship and Leadership by LifePoint Creative. My name is Elmer Cáñez Jr and I'm excited we get to hang out today with the one and only.
Speaker 2:Yo, what is up? It's your boy.
Speaker 1:Cousin Willie, Cousin Willie, Cousin Willie. And today we're in the second episode of season three, let's go. So we're excited that we're all along on this journey together and today we have our pastor with us in the room, pastor Mike Burnett.
Speaker 4:What's up? What's up? Illustrious, be illustrious.
Speaker 2:Preeminent Ebullient Effervescent Pastor Michael Burnett Is that ebullient, ebullient.
Speaker 4:And effervescent, we're gonna need a definition and a spell check on that one.
Speaker 2:Ebullient E-B-U-L-L-I-E-N-T Ebullient. Use it in a sentence.
Speaker 4:I think the root word of that is bull.
Speaker 2:Well, I didn't say it, sure, you did.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:He actually looked up the words before he came in. I said Cyrus, look up synonyms, For illustrious Synonyms are my favorite flavor.
Speaker 3:That's another pet peeve.
Speaker 1:And today we are talking on our topic of influence and we're going to focus on the heart of a leader, and who better to lead us in this discussion than our pastor?
Speaker 2:I fully agree, absolutely, pastor Mike. I love the fact that you are always having a heart and really embodying one of our core values, which is developing leaders. But you do that very practically. Anytime you're in a room with us, you're pouring into us, but then you're also taking us on trips and taking us to conferences and locations. You're putting us in rooms where we can grow and develop as leaders and we thank you for that kind of heart. So I do want to ask this where did that come from? Where did the heart and the passion and desire to grow and develop leaders, where did that come from?
Speaker 4:Well, thanks for your kind words. Honestly, I don't take it lightly that we get to lead, team and lead people in their devotion to Jesus. When I was a youth pastor 22 years old, the associate pastor at the church where I was working I never thought at 21 about leadership. It just wasn't even on my radar. But he was training me for youth ministry and he said our job is not to change anybody, it's to invite them into a relationship with Jesus. Who will change them? And he said the job of a pastor and a shepherd is to lead people to the good shepherd and he will do all the transformation and all the leading. And I just, I don't know, it just always stuck with me. My job is not I can't fix anybody, I can't make anybody do anything. I can't change the heart or the will of a person. I can motivate, inspire, ask and in church ministry you can't force anybody to do anything. I mean everybody comes as a volunteer to attend, pray, serve, give, you know, be a part of this church. They choose to come. And what's really interesting is you lead with vision. You lead with a vision that's good for them and it doesn't even necessarily benefit the leaders. It benefits the people and then they fund it, they serve in it, they get behind that vision that's really ultimately good for them and their family and the next generation. So I think especially spiritual leadership, pastoring and ministry leadership is so unique because you're leading a people that don't belong to you. They belong to Jesus. Right To follow a leader, ultimately, who is Christ. Paul said follow me as I also follow Jesus. So I think it started as an early guy in ministry.
Speaker 4:I never realized that I was leading people. Probably even in college. I started just Bible studies and small group devotionals with one or two guys at a time. My calendar always had people on it that had nothing to do with my school schedule, nothing to do with my life outside of campus. But I mean every week six, 10, 12 different guys that I would meet, whether it's 15 minutes between classes. Hey, we're walking the same way, let's connect. And I didn't realize what I was doing then. But my campus pastor said you're discipling people is what you're doing and you're leading people to follow Jesus. And he said you're doing pastoral work.
Speaker 4:I remember when I was asked to be a pastor, I was studying music to be a classical musician and opera singer and my pastor of the church that I was attending invited me to be on staff and at first it was music director and choir director and then they asked me to be a youth pastor. I said I don't know how to pastor anybody. And it was my college pastor that said you've been pastoring people as long as I've known you. You've got them in small group, you've got them in the cafeteria for a 30 minute meetup or a hangout. I've just I've always had that kind of built in wired to help people on their journey and disciple them. And I guess, coming all the way back to your original question, like where did I learn it? I don't really know when I learned it versus when I recognized it and probably in my early 20s, starting in ministry, realizing that the job of a pastor is to lead people to connect with Jesus.
Speaker 4:And he's the one that changes people. I think a lot of times leaders think I have to control, I have to force, and there is an element when you're a senior leader of an organization that you have to give direction, you have preferences or you have the way you want things done.
Speaker 4:But I think that's different than leadership like what you're talking about Leadership one of my favorite statements ever made is leadership is influence, Nothing else, nothing more, nothing less. And if you think of leadership in that regard, then then you, you realize the great, uh, awesome responsibility that you have to leverage your influence in a way that helps other people and benefits them. If you're only leading them to you, then you're not a leader.
Speaker 4:Yeah, You're you're a taker, Um, you may be insecure or selfish, but if you're leading people and leveraging your influence for their good, even if it gets nothing for you like it's of no benefit to yourself, it only opens doors for them or puts them in places where they can improve Then that's influencing, that's leading in a way that's healthy and, I think, selfless and and and best. So leadership is influence, and in the church world that's all we really have is influence. We've talked about this a lot over the years with our pastors here. All we have is influence and live and lead in a way that protects that and doesn't spoil that. I don't know if I'm answering your question.
Speaker 2:When did I learn it versus recognize it, and what is it? I mean that's a lot related. No, that's great. And that actually sort of really flows next into another question which I know is a passion of yours, sort of as an undergird to influence and leadership, and that is integrity. And I, just again, I love your passion for that.
Speaker 2:I remember when I first started on staff here four years ago, you know you really talked through integrity and say, hey, listen, and just letting everybody know, like during one of our staff meetings, you said, hey, listen, you're welcome to struggle here, but you're not welcome to hide Like it's not safe to hide. If you're dealing with any issues, confess that, bring it forward, let us help with those things. And I remember you make this statement. You said me and Pastor Steph, we pray every week. Hey, if there's something happening on this team that's going to deter or inhibit our ability to lead others, god expose it. And I think we would agree that God's been answering that prayer. Sometimes it's led to pain for our team, but God's been answering the prayer because God, he wants to purify his bride, he wants to present us to him blameless. Scripture says so. Would you expand more on that about the integrity piece. That's really what we have to give and offer people as leaders.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think any leader in any role, um, people are watching your life in addition to evaluating your words, and those things have to match, and probably one of the greatest failures of leadership is when we lead without integrity, without character. We don't back up um what we say, and I think that's why, as a culture, we have grown suspicious of leadership. We've grown suspicious of political leaders, police officers, business owners, parents, parents don't even trust the leadership of teachers and principals anymore right, we just assume everybody is a failed leader, I think, and it's really sad.
Speaker 4:The Scripture describes leadership as a spiritual gift, and so in the ministry, uh, pastors are held suspicious as well. I mean, we just came out of a capital campaign and one of the areas of feedback that we've heard is where people have said over and over again how thankful they are for the transparency of our church when it comes to finances, because they've been so let down by the handling of money or the lack of transparency among their last church or the churches they've grown up with. So pastors are leaders too, who come under the same kind of suspicion, and I think it's really important that when God gives you a place of leadership, that you guard it and steward it well. What that doesn't mean is protect your reputation. What that doesn't mean is force people to follow you. The only thing you can do is live your life in a way that people want to trust your leadership and choose to follow you, and sometimes that means you say no to freedoms and preferences. Sometimes it means you say yes to a simpler life and a more transparent life. It definitely should require that you live with accountability and people that can speak into your life, like I'm in the. I sit in the lead seat, organizationally of our church, but I have overseers and leaders in my life who can speak into any area of my life without invitation, like they don't have to say, hey, I want to call and talk to you about it. They can just call my wife and say how's Mike at home? Or, if they need to know how I'm doing at work, they can contact the team and the lead team or the board and ask the hard questions, because I've submitted myself there and that's just part of what I believe is important to being a leader under authority, right? So I think it's John Bevere who said you'll never be over in authority if you're not a leader under authority. So these are just ways that I think we live with integrity.
Speaker 4:But ultimately integrity is the only thing you have as a leader and the integrity that word in itself, it means a whole. It comes from the same word where we get integer, which, if you remember, in math it's the whole number, right? So an integer is a whole number and a whole person is an integrous person. So if I had 10 areas of my life, I've got my spiritual life, my professional life, my married life, my parenting life, my private life, my hobby life, my financial life, whatever. I can be good in six of those and bad in two, and I'm not an integrous person. I don't have wholeness in my life and I've challenged our team on numerous occasions. Even our board and others like you really need a well-rounded look at your life and others need to have access to the well-rounded look at your life.
Speaker 4:And it's not where people can just kind of nitpick the things that they don't like about you, but it's the things that diminish your integrity, right? So it's one thing for somebody to say you know, they don't like the kind of shoes that I wear. It's another thing to say, like the spending on your shoes are a financial flare up, that you're not paying your bills and you're not giving generously and you're not taking care of your kids and feeding your family, but you got some nice kicks on. That's an integrity gap. You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 4:So, anyway, if you look at the eight to 10 areas of a whole person's life, an integrous person has wholeness and is working to stay accountable and healthy in all those areas. So, as a leader, all you really have is your integrity, and people don't care what you say as much as what you do. I think it was John Maxwell who used to say they don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. But I think the same is true they don't care so much about what you say, but what you do. Time and time again, year over year, keep showing up like stay true to your words.
Speaker 4:I mean we've all worked for leaders that said one thing and did another right, and that's one of the quickest ways to lose your influence. If leadership is influence, influence is really about being a person in integrity to lead people, and and managing your integrity is just so important stewarding your integrity in order to better steward your influence. That's so good. People don't want to follow people they don't trust. Yeah, yeah, and you know, trust is given quickly and shattered quickly and restored very slowly. So if, if you're brand new to the church, right, you're going to trust me right away because I'm the senior pastor, I'm the lead pastor, You're going to just immediately go. Well, that's the pastor you know. So you have some built-in trust mechanism there. And there may be some fray on that on the edges of well, we'll see how he talks about this or what he thinks about that or whatever.
Speaker 4:But in general, trust is given pretty quickly and if you're going to join the church and be a part of it and go through growth tracking, do all that kind of stuff, trust is given quickly. It's shattered quickly too. Let me snap off in a lobby at Target because some kid ran over my daughter's foot, you know. Or let me lose my temper on the interstate because somebody cut me off and we've all been tempted with all these things. Right, you can lose your integrity and your trust very quickly, but then it's restored slowly. So that's why I think one of the main reasons it's so important to just I'm not afraid of what people think of me, but I am concerned about my life being followable and my leadership being followable right. So guard your words, guard your behaviors, live submitted and stay accountable because and it's sometimes some people never recover from a violation of trust. Never. And you know the old adage is God will forgive you quick, immediately, but people don't. And we're not called to lead God, we're called to lead people.
Speaker 2:And that's good.
Speaker 4:And you lead people by building, being a trustworthy, integrous leader. And part of that is when you make a mistake, own it right away, own it, say it, apologize, repent, be submitted to the authority to get it right and then move on. So, anyway, I have a lot of thoughts about this, but the integrity piece it's all we have.
Speaker 4:It is our product as leaders, as spiritual leaders. We don't have a product at the church. We don't have a widget that we sell. We don't have a book that we keep drawing people into. There's no requirement that they come. They only come because they trust us and they come back and they give to this thing and they serve it and they sacrifice their time.
Speaker 4:I was thinking a couple of weeks ago the collective amount of resources it takes for the congregation to come to church on a Sunday. To come to church on a Sunday. So roughly, a tube of toothpaste is 150 uses. So if we have 1,500 people come to church, is that 10 tubes of toothpaste? Yeah, so if we have 5,000 people come to church, how many tubes of toothpaste does it take to just go to church on a Sunday? That's the investment people are making, right? I'm thinking about the gas they spend to drive over, the amount of deodorant they put on in water they put down the drain just to take showers for 5,000, 6,000 people on a weekend. Like all of this investment, collectively it's thousands of dollars people spend to get ready and drive to church, not for me to blow it, but to lead with integrity and to lead with influence that's tested and curated over time and just trying to stay in the paint with my influence.
Speaker 3:You know, does that make sense? Like it's just a different way of thinking about it.
Speaker 4:Nobody owes me anything. It's my privilege to serve them. They put in so much effort to get there. I mean I think about the drive to get off the interstate and fight the traffic and find a parking spot and get in there and get your kids in and all of that investment and then we get to lead them in their devotion to Jesus. We get to step them closer in their understanding of who God is and who the God who loves them and has a plan and has more for them. We're about to do a series where we start with God has more and they trust us when we say it and they're investing so much time after the 52 Sundays, that crowd invests all those resources to get there and then invite us in to lead them. So that's why integrity is so important in ministry and it means you live the same life in public as private. It means your words match your actions, and so that's the integrity piece.
Speaker 3:I'm going way off here. No, that's good. Down a deep rabbit hole, that's good.
Speaker 4:It's different ways to think about it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:And leadership is not just standing up in front. Some of our greatest leaders have their nameless people that people don't know who they are, but they see them every week and they're such incredibly faithful stewards of their leadership and influence and they're influencing people in a mighty way. Yeah, I think of our parking lot team, I mean they're influencing $50,000 vehicles into a spot.
Speaker 3:I mean think about it yeah.
Speaker 4:They're controlling that parking lot. We've never had a kid hit and killed in a parking lot. Yeah, and that's over 52 Sundays. You know you think 3,000 cars a weekend times 52 is a lot of cars moving in and out of our property. We've never had a single incident with a car hitting a kid. That's because we've got these guys out there with yellow vests and sometimes in the rain and the snow, and they're smiling and leading. That's influence. And you know, what they don't do is start kicking tires because you don't listen to them and flatten your tires because you don't do it. I mean we've got so many leaders in our church that are leading faithfully with influence. It's so amazing to watch. Just being the guy up front that preaches every Sunday is not the main leader.
Speaker 1:I mean we're a church full of leaders and we want to keep developing that and as people come to the church to visit I'm thinking of first-time guests it's every part of their experience is influencing their decision to become a part or to stay, and ultimately they'll encounter a lot of other leaders before they get to hear your voice.
Speaker 4:I'm the last new face they see.
Speaker 1:And so everyone does play a significant part. As you were talking, I'm just thinking you know you're in your 40s.
Speaker 4:I'll be 45. I'll officially be in my mid-40s in January. Come on For somebody. Praise the Lord, let's go. Thank you.
Speaker 2:Jesus.
Speaker 1:And I'm just curious like leadership, a lot of leadership is resilience and consistency, but a lot of it's formed in us and we're shaped over our years. What is something that maybe we could speak to? These three seasons in your life, like in your twenties, which you mentioned a little bit of those years earlier twenties, thirties and now in your forties like what, what are the things that maybe were the challenges, like when you're in your twenties? When you were in your thirties, I think I got to meet you. You were like 33, 34 when we first met um over 10 years ago. Just crazy, um, and I'm just two years younger than you. But um, like what are the challenges in each of those seasons?
Speaker 4:Yeah, even thinking about the question uh, the stages I'll get emotional thinking about it. But, um, in our twenties I think, um, I didn't grow up with a dad in my house, right? So I grew up with a father just in another state. So I think a longing for approval and affirmation was a much bigger motivator for me in my 20s and I was stepping into a whole new career, like I was going to be a musician and that's a world where you live for applause, right. So like every show, every concert, every event ends with take a bow and get applauded. Like every show, every concert, every event ends with take a bow and get applauded. And then in my 20s I'm working for a guy who didn't care to applaud me ever I mean, he didn't even think that way and I have an affirmation love language, right. So if you know the five love languages I mean for a pastor, I think one of the worst is affirmation. But I do, I just kind of have them wired. And so in those early years I had to really decide I don't need men's approval, I don't need it, I just decided. And I remember Galatians 1.10, feeling like a tattooed verse on my heart where he says if you seek the approval of men, you are no longer pleasing God and I just had to decide. I'll never forget and I love my first pastor man. I would fight a grizzly bear for him. I'm serious, I just love him like crazy.
Speaker 4:But he brought me in one time for a meeting. He calls me, he scheduled a meeting. I'm like, bro, we work two doors down, what are you scheduling this for? And I'm so relational, like, just pop in and it was two days out. I had a scheduled appointment with him and and I walk in, he doesn't even open the door. I walk in and he's sitting behind his desk and he's old school and very corrective meeting. And he had a three by five index card in his front shirt pocket and it had uh, he carried a black and a red pen at all times and he had on this three by five index card a bullet point on every single line with a thing that I'd done, that he was going to correct me on Everything in red. The red was correction, black was approval, right.
Speaker 4:So for an hour, probably a little longer, he just went point by point, boom, boom, boom. And just, I was 23 maybe and I think if I was more mature, I would have had a notebook going this is great. Oh man, this is so good. Thank you for telling me this. But because of my dad wounds probably in my affirmation need I was very defensive and I was very upset and I finally said to him is there anything on that card that I've done right? That was my response to him when he was trying to. It was how he knew how to correct and help me. But I didn't take it that way. I took it as I think in your twenties you just take everything. So I took everything so personally and this is before I decided I don't need the approval of man, and that may be have come somewhat from a little bit of a defiance, but I don't need nobody's telling me what you know there may have been some of that too, but but he looked at the card.
Speaker 4:I said is there anything on this card I've done Right? And what he didn't say was I probably could write five other cards of the things you've done well, but he was in a mode to bring correction and I just remember that taught me a lot. Number one it taught me how to lead a staff one day? I've never done that to either of you guys. In fact I have a meeting for you after this, Jacob.
Speaker 4:Index cards, but I just remember, like Other people's leadership styles and other people's management styles, does not have to direct how I obey God and how I live for God and how I serve God. And I may never please Him, but I can please the Lord. I just remember, walking out of that meeting, I just had a choice I could be defeated or I can be different, and I just, I don't know, I just that was probably like I said, I was probably 23 and I just decided then I'm not, I'm not seeking his approval because I may not ever get it. And the thing is, if you keep seeking that, then when you get it you feel like you're on cloud nine and when you don't, you feel like you're in the dumps of the valley. But I don't, I don't live to please him, I live to please the Lord.
Speaker 4:You know, and I remember having a very blunt talk with Stephanie. I said, as long as you're pleased with me, as long as you're proud of me, I think I can, I'll be fine. You know, and she's always been like really good about that affirmation and being proud of me. But in my 30s, so in my, my twenties, I went to seminary and, man, you talk about insecure, I didn't know nothing about no grammar either.
Speaker 3:I didn't know anything about anything.
Speaker 4:When I went to seminary, I was the only guy that didn't know the words they were using and I'd ask questions what is exegesis?
Speaker 3:Exegetical.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I didn't know any of that stuff. I come from a music background. I'm in a brand new environment. I moved 600 miles away to go to a town I'd never visited and study stuff I'd never studied professionally and very, very unsettling. But seminary really builds a lot of confidence in your brain, not your humility. So I left seminary pretty cocky about what I knew now and I got humbled real quick when I couldn't get a job for six months, thinking I would have been God's gift to the church world. You know like everybody's going to be fighting over me. Mike Burnett has graduated from seminary. Ladies and gentlemen, there's like the buzz in the internet Nobody even cared.
Speaker 4:I couldn't get a second interview for like anything nothing.
Speaker 4:I ended up delivering pizzas and hanging shingles and splitting wood for a millionaire in town. He felt pity for me. He's like I'll hire you to do odds and ends for my house and it was the worst. I mean it was great. You know the provision side. It was very humbling and honestly, I look back and I'm so thankful for the times God has brought me through those really hard, humbling moments. But I probably didn't appreciate him at the time. Sure, and that's part of being in your 20s. You don't understand. It's like Daniel's son Like paint the fence, paint the fence. I'm out here painting your whole fence. He's like all right, boy, come here. Let me show you why. Paint the fence, wax on wax off matters.
Speaker 4:And then, all of a sudden, I'm a karate. This in my thirties. I'm so thankful for Rod Loy. He became a spiritual mentor to me and a spiritual father, and I gave him access to everything I just submitted right away. And I remember when I asked him to mentor me, he was like man, I don't mentor people that don't listen to me. And I just remember I had to decide like is he going to be a mentor, Is he going to be a coach? You know, a coach tells you what's good in you, but a mentor says what's missing out of you, right?
Speaker 3:That's one of the ways I see it different. That's so good, yeah.
Speaker 4:A coach says, man, you're running great If you'll just tweak this little thing, or that you'll be a better runner, yeah, yeah. But a mentor says you could run, and you didn't even know you could run, huh, do for me. He would say things I didn't see in myself or didn't notice. Um, instead of you know, people want coaching to just affirm them yeah, and I don't think I wanted that. I wanted to be like, I wanted to be different, as not different from anybody else, just different from me. And so I brought Rod into my life and and he had a church of I don't know if we had 200 people, and he had a church of like 5,000 and he's 20 years older than me and you know it's, it's a total different demographic. But I just decided at 31, I'm fully submitted to this guy as a mentor in my life, and uh, and then when you add on that the weight of the first chair of a church, um, there's nothing that teaches you like that Nothing.
Speaker 4:I mean you sit with it. Different, you carry it different.
Speaker 4:So in my 40s, now that I'm almost in my mid-40s, I'm probably starting to get more reflective on that stuff and there's things that people assume or think about maybe my leadership perspectives because of where they're at in their leadership journey, instead of where I'm at and what I've gone, what I've walked through and learned through and and that's part of just being an older leader and probably 15 years ago I would have cared what they thought about my reasoning and whatever. But I still care that. But it's a different like I want. I want people that were leading to understand the why as opposed to like agreement.
Speaker 4:You know what I'm saying? I don't know, but you know in your 40s it's just you start this is weird to say like I think this is the first time I've ever said it. I thought it recently but you're starting to think like the first half of my life's behind me now. But in your 30s you think I got all this life to live Right and somebody told me yesterday you still got another what? 18 to 20 years ahead of you and I've been in ministry 25 years.
Speaker 2:So I'm on the like you know, if you retire at 65. Wow.
Speaker 4:And I said to him I was like, bro, I'm going to work till I die, what you talking about? And he said well, I'm just saying 65, 20 years away, man. So you just think different. When, when you're starting that downhill slide and I sound like I'm an old man right now I don't mean to sound that way, but it is different you just think different and I I liked the way you divided it between your twenties, thirties and forties. Um, you know, when you're a teenager, you think you're smarter than everybody. When you're in your twenties, you, you think you can conquer the world. In your thirties, you realize you're not that special. And then your forties, you realize I'm just like my mom, just like my dad, I'm all the things I said I would never be, you know. So you kind of just relax a little bit, I think. But you've done something long enough that you kind of know what you're talking about.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And sometimes people don't give you enough grace for that. You know what I'm saying. Does that make sense? Yeah, and you and I have known each other long enough and as new folks come on the team and stuff, they trust quickly. Trust can be hurt and shattered quickly if they don't process the way that you do, if you've been in something for a long time. You mentioned the word resilience earlier. Resilience is actually a major part of leading for a long time. You just got to keep showing up. You get knocked down, but get up. You don't have the like, we don't have the luxury of going. Hey, we're going to just, we're going to go, just not do Sunday.
Speaker 3:Right, you just don't have that luxury.
Speaker 4:I can't not show up. So resilience means that we got to keep going. Yeah, had a hard summer, had a hard year. Uh, you know accusations, which I think one of the things that helped me in my thirties. I got off of Facebook. Uh, I have a page, not a profile, which is great because that is a that is a cesspool, yeah.
Speaker 3:It can be toxic.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And I don't. I never, ever, ever, never, never, never, ever, ever, never, like or comment on people's stuff on social media, which means it doesn't populate those things back on my feed. That's smart, and I'm never going to be seen for taking a side on something. I don't care if it's my kid got a touchdown. It's like okay, willie's son gets a touchdown and they post about him. I'm like way to go, trey. And then somebody from the other team is like Pastor Mike, they destroyed our team. Yeah, like I'm just. That sounds so dumb and benign, obviously, but I'm never. I just never get in the thick of it. I look at it as sheer stupid entertainment and sometimes keeping up with our folks, I don't know, I'm kind of rambling because up the resilience piece keep
Speaker 4:showing up. It's very hard to lead. It's very hard to lead a church because you have no there's. I mean you're, you're again. You're dealing with people who choose to show up and you're leading. This is crazy. You lead them with a vision God gives you for them not even for me Like I'll turn this in one day. I'm not. I'm not even gonna be here forever. God could ask me to leave in six months, six years, and all the churches and the campuses that we're building, I won't even have keys for them at the end of it all.
Speaker 4:I'm going to turn them all in one day, and my key fob and the cards that I use for spending. It's not even for me, it's for the people, and folks love that. They choose to keep showing up and go wow, they're doing this for me and my kids, so it's an interesting place to lead. You lead an organization full of volunteers to build something massive one of the biggest companies in town and all to hand off one day it's interesting.
Speaker 1:I love how you're being real vulnerable.
Speaker 4:I don't mean to be man, no. No, it's great.
Speaker 3:I just kind of talk about it, fault what else?
Speaker 1:do you want to say no, like no, but one of the things in leaders, especially a senior leader like yourself, like I, I think it's the tension of being vulnerable and and how do you manage the authority that you have? You know, because there is, there's that authority as leaders because we want people to follow in a certain direction like that tension, like how have you navigated that? You know how much is too vulnerable, like what are those spaces where? What is a safe space? You mentioned a mentor, you know, and your and your spouse and sharing certain things, like I don't know.
Speaker 2:I think, yeah, as we're in leadership, willie, like those are things that we're challenged with and, you know, in relationships and yeah, there's a certain wisdom that you have to have, pastor Mike, in in regards to being vulnerable, but also being integrous as well and being wise. Well, let me say that being vulnerable and being wise with with how real you get and what areas you get real in. So how have you managed to find as close to the middle as possible in leading our team, Because I think you do a really good job of being balanced, in certain circles being more vulnerable and then in other environments, being really just wise and still pushing people forward. How have you landed the plane there?
Speaker 4:Well, I appreciate that statement, your confidence there. I think leadership is a managing of tensions, not a resolving of tensions. Most people want to resolve tension and I don't think leaders have that privilege. So, for example, we have a vision for the future and we have a past that we're trying to build upon, right. Or we have um first time guests and then we've got folks that are on their way out Right, you're just always in the middle of tension, right. Uh, you lead with vision, but your vision off often, uh, you can't afford it because the people again, you know you're it's a volunteer organization where people choose to give to it. So I have probably $30 million worth of vision that the church just hasn't given to, and so you have to stay in the place where the resources are. So a ton of ideas, of stuff we just can't do. So there's a lot of tensions and I don't think resolving tension is a privilege of leaders.
Speaker 4:I think you have to just live in it and balance it. In fact, it's one of the book ideas that I want to write is life in the tension. So some things are only good when they're tense. So you put a tensioner on an engine right and the tension actually makes it beneficial.
Speaker 4:A rubber band's only valuable when it's tense. Whether you're pulling it to shoot it across the room or you're binding up a stack of papers with it, it's actually only valuable when tense. So there's some things there's sometimes that tension is actually valuable. So anyway, to your question of how do you manage the tension. I'm very humble that I get to do this. I really am. I thank the Lord all the time. I think about Sundays.
Speaker 4:After church, I get in my car after I'm physically and emotionally exhausted, I nap two and a half hours on Sunday and I'm totally worn out and I always go. God, thank you so much that I can't even believe you. Let me do that. I know my past, I know my stories, I know my failures and my weaknesses, I know my insecurities and inadequacies and I just keep going. God, I can't believe you. Let me do this.
Speaker 4:So I'm very humbled that I get to do it and I'm very confident that I get to do it, and I think there's a place for humble confidence. So cocky confidence is dang right. I get to do this. I confidence is dang right. I get to do this. I've earned my position, I've paid my dues and, by the way, that's always a very toxic place to get in your own head, whether it's about family, neighborhood, hoa. I've been in this neighborhood longer than you, by God. I get to like people just find rights all the time right. So I think when you ever think I have the right and the privilege to do anything, you're on the precipice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, use one of your wheelie.
Speaker 4:words Come on.
Speaker 4:You're on the precipice of a of a down, downward spiral. You know of a fall, and I don't think God wants to trust people who think they are deserving Right. I think entitled leadership is is dangerous. But I'm very confident that God has called me to this role as the first chair leader and it humbles me, so that's like the best way I know how to explain that life in the tension.
Speaker 4:I'm so confident God's called me to do this, but I don't ever flex that. I never say I'm the leader, you do what I say, respect my authority. You know like, do you know who you're talking to, son? Like. I've never tried to flex that on our team. Very rarely have I, in like a private moment with a lead team member, said something like I do get to speak into this right, like I get to be the leader here still correct, and that's just probably more venting and honest flex, fleshing out the process. But but I don't ever, I don't ever come down on our church. I don't stand in the pulpit and say this is what we're doing, get, get on board or get out of here. So I'm very confident that God's called me to do this and I'm humbled that he called me to do it, and I think you have to live there because at any moment God can take. Listen, david. Uh, first of all, david was anointed years before he was appointed, right?
Speaker 4:So he had an anointing on his life before he was actually appointed as king. And then as king, the very kingdom that God gave him became his God, it became his idol, it became the thing that he flexed with. And he showed that flex when he stayed home in wartime, when he should have been out leading battles, he stayed home and he slept with his neighbor's wife and had him killed. I mean, the whole story with Bathsheba is when, whenever the blessing of God becomes your God or becomes the thing that you're now protecting and curating. And I just felt that temptation as a pastor of a growing church and a large church, it's like I can do a lot to curate and protect and there's a difference in stewarding and protecting. We lead out of stewardship, not out of protection, because all of this can be gone in a moment and God can remove me anytime he wants. It's his house right.
Speaker 4:Recently, with the capital campaign, I've been telling the Lord God, this is your church, it's your bill man, I appreciate you pay that real fast. But it is true Like we have to believe it's all God's, which is the humbling part. I can't believe God lets me do this here, but I'm confident. God has told me to do this here. Yeah, that's great and I'm confident of the seat he's put me in because that's where he's got me. If the Lord moved my seat and put me in a seat as an associate youth pastor under Pastor DeRay, I would be so humbled to do that and confident that that's where God put me and I'd serve my leader that way. I'd serve DeRay.
Speaker 4:I mean, if that's what God wants me to do, I've told Stephanie my kids have asked you know, as we get older they, dad, do you think we'll live here forever? Do you think we'll be in Clarksville forever? And I always say the same thing. I was like we work for God, we'll do what he wants, we'll go where he wants. And I said I'd love to be here forever. God wants me here. But then I've told him I said I'll be a junior high youth pastor in rural Oklahoma if God wants me to be. And they're like what Are to do whatever God tells us to do. Paul did not fight God on any assignment, and sometimes it was in front of Rome and Caesar and sometimes it was next to a guard in a hole in the ground. It doesn't matter, we get to do this. It's a privilege, so humbling and be confident about where God has you.
Speaker 2:That's great.
Speaker 4:And if you can live in that tension, then you can make decisions, which, I think, if we get it wrong, we start going well, this is what God told me to do, dang it, and this is what we're going to do. Well, that's, that's terrible, cause you're giving up again. Your, your, your integrity and your influence. So, anyway, you know, pastor Mike, um, you guys keep letting me go down.
Speaker 2:Come on, we're gleaning, we're just Ruth and we're dropping the bushels, man, we're picking them up.
Speaker 4:The bushels the bushels.
Speaker 2:You're dropping the sheaves.
Speaker 1:You're dropping the bundles. It's not that beef jerky.
Speaker 2:Man thank God, Listen here.
Speaker 4:This podcast has a new sponsor. Hey, family, listen, we need a sponsor. If there's a local business out here that would like to sponsor this podcast. We don't even necessarily need money, no, but we'd love to say sponsored by, and then call out your local business and then maybe get a few grapefruits or something in a basket Ask your question. The local bank brought us a bag of kiwis as a thanks for the sponsorship.
Speaker 3:Go ahead.
Speaker 4:What's your question?
Speaker 2:So I know there are leaders listening and tuning in on the podcast. Thank you first of all. Who struggle with the confidence part in terms of managing the tensions? I love how you said that you don't manage tensions.
Speaker 4:You don't resolve it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you don't resolve it, you manage them. I remember I think you even said you solve problems, but you manage tensions, like you said. No, if there's a problem, you have to solve it, right?
Speaker 4:So I would love for you to speak to these leaders who really I think there's a lyric that says if there was a problem, yo I'll solve it.
Speaker 2:That's why the DJ revolves. It. Is that Ice Ice Baby? No, it was, that was yeah it was it was Yo I'll solve it, Willie.
Speaker 4:now let's go back to your Vanilla Ice days. I know you were down with that.
Speaker 2:Oh, I was all about Vanilla Ice. I used to try to wear my hair like a man. Okay, at the park and everything.
Speaker 4:Meanwhile I was over here listening to Boyz II Men.
Speaker 2:Go ahead Back to your question, so that. So that was the biggest ADD moment right there. I loved it.
Speaker 3:So listen, okay, so we settle our hearts and our minds and we have to manage tensions as leaders.
Speaker 2:So how can you utilize the confidence wisely when it comes to managing tensions on your team? How do you utilize again, this is God-given confidence, not arrogance, but God-given confidence to manage tensions on that team, because those things are like little foxes that destroy the vine Totally and they get easily confused.
Speaker 4:I'm in charge, so it's my way. Okay, your leadership is about the people you're leading. So if you're just in charge and you get to do whatever you want and have whatever you want, you won't have people to lead for very long because you'll destroy them, you'll hurt them, you'll use them. People are not a means to an end, they are the end. They're the ones we're leading. And so when I was 22, I started. I was 21,. Pastor Barry Culberson in Knoxville. He was that pastor I worked for. He gave me the red card of leadership, but he hired me as his choir director for the church church of 600 people. Everyone in the choir was old enough to be my mom or grandmother or grandfather.
Speaker 4:And I think, like two of them, read music. Now I have a classical music degree. I've sung at Carnegie hall. I've sung operas. I've done high, high brow concerts, full orchestras Latin, italian, german, french, spanish, high brow concerts, full orchestras Latin, italian, german, french, spanish. I've sung in multiple languages. I know how to read music. I have a wife with an undergrad master's in classical piano. She can literally sight read anything you put in front of her.
Speaker 4:And I'm choir directing a church where people don't know treble versus bass clef, they don't know key signatures, they do Nashville numbers, which is fake version of Roman numeral analysis.
Speaker 4:And I'm thrown into a situation where I know way more than the people that I'm leading but I had no idea how to lead them and no clue at all, and I was getting so frustrated and so the first week there they had for Sunday service I had to lead, we did worship and then I'd lead a choir song as the offertory during the offering right, special music, and the flute player would always print the lyrics on a sheet of eight and a half by 11 white paper and everybody in the choir would just walk out with the lyrics and hold it as a sheet of paper up on the platform and I'm a choir guy like, put it in a black binder and let's do sheet music.
Speaker 4:And and they were like no, we've never done that. And I said, well, we're going to try it. And then no, they fought me left and right, we're not doing that. So I got sheet music, I went out and bought all these black binders and they fought me over this and they were like revolting over sheet music. Instead of a sheet, a page of lyrics. And what's funny is now we sing with just lyrics on the screen right Like it's, they won anyway.
Speaker 4:So I'd been worship choir director for about three months and I'm just beating my head against a wall trying to teach music. That we'd open every rehearsal and I would always say we are going to start on time. Well, they'd come in 15 minutes late because that's what they'd always done, and we're going to start on time. Well, they'd come in 15 minutes late because that's what they'd always done. And we're going to do 10 minutes of music theory. I'm going to teach you how to read music. And they're like I don't care about that, let's just sing the song.
Speaker 4:I listened to the cassette all week. I got my parts down, I just figured out and they make up parts. And I remember going to my pastor, going I cannot lead these people. Lead them as if God puts you there and help them get better. So I just had this. This is that confidence thing, like I'm confident God's put me in this position and I was serving him, like he was my pastor and he's the one that spoke that into me. God puts you here. They didn't. And so lead them so that it's good for them, help them. And so I just started.
Speaker 4:I really just stopped worrying about getting compliance and I started thinking about my God-given position under his authority, pastor Barry, in this organization, and it was to help them. So then I just kept doing the things that frustrated them, where they would argue and they could, as a mutiny, they could all win the argument, but I'd just go yeah, we're going to keep doing this because I want to help you all win the argument. But I just go. Yeah, we're going to keep doing this because I want to help you. And I think, if you, if you listen, I want to tell every leader on any team it doesn't matter what team you're on If the Lord has put you there, be confident about that, but don't use that to your advantage. Use it for the good of the people you're leading. So that means a leader's job is to take people from one place to the next.
Speaker 4:Whether you're preaching, whether you're leading a team, whether you're leading a song, whatever you're doing, your job is to lead people. You're not the one to do the thing. You're leading people to do the thing right and take them to their next place. And so you be confident that God's put you there and then be humble enough to go. How can I do this in a way that's good for them and that's what a lot of people they go. This is the way I do it. This is the way I lead. This is the way I teach. This is the way I preach. This is the way I do music. Yeah Well, if you go to Germany and just preach, preach, preach your guts out in English, you can be the best preacher in the English language has ever known, but if they don't speak the language, you're literally talking to a wall. So Pastor Barry was like you're the guy God's put you there. Now lead in a way that helps them. Help them, which means you've got to think about them. So you lead with the people in mind.
Speaker 4:We talk about this as a team? What's the user experience? What's the end result? Listen, we have our preferences on a staff and we'll even talk about those things. Well, this is what I want, this is what I think, but at the end, what does it mean for them? A simple example we talk about the sound levels in our auditorium and the lights. I mean all of us that are musicians and artists, like I've done operas in completely dark rooms with just stage lights and smoke, and I do it with no like electrical enhancements. I sing acoustic, yeah, but we got soldiers in our church who don't like loud, dark rooms because they've been in combat.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:So I go hey, can we turn the bass down? Well, I like it like this, it doesn't matter. You know, a sound guy could say that and they can justifiably go. It's a great mix, it's perfectly balanced. Great, turn it down, because our people matter more.
Speaker 4:We don't lead from preference, we lead from a place of loving people and leading them. Shepherds don't eat grass. They lead sheep to eat grass. Shepherds don't drink still water. They drink running water, but they lead sheep to the still waters because it's good for them. So I'm confident God's called me to lead people for their good. And that is like to me.
Speaker 4:I think it's leadership 101. Like you have to think that way all the time, every decision you make. We're talking recently about a possible addition to our profile of things that we do and it's like well, what's the end result of that? Does it drift us from our mission to help people and to lead them or does it enhance that? And that's always a question that we ask. And very often you get a new idea from somebody in your field in another place. Like, okay, I'll just as an example, my pastor is Chris Hodges in Birmingham and it's very tempting to go well, highlands did, but I've had to fight that in my own heart and then I've had to fight it with our team to go. We're not Church of the Highlands, because I know Pastor Chris well enough to know that he prayed and sought the Lord about that for his church. He didn't pray and seek the Lord about that for my church, for LifePoint. That's not my church, it's God's church.
Speaker 3:You know what I'm saying?
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, stephen Furtick may have a great idea with how he designed a stage and all the songs he's writing for elevation. That doesn't mean he prayed and sought the Lord for me to do that here, but there are times that you do that you know, like where you might borrow and pull. We're doing a sermon series, have done before a sermon series from other pastors. Because we listened, we thought, we thought would this be good for our Financial Peace University? It's a great example of that. Rooted Alpha. These are great for people because they're curated with that general audience in mind and so we adopt them. But in general, you lead in a way I'm confident God's called me here and I'm confident God's called me here to help these people take their next steps.
Speaker 2:And that's so good.
Speaker 4:That's where you have to live as a leader, and I think it's true in the business world I think it's true in banking. I think it's true in whatever your industry is.
Speaker 2:If you're a stay-at-home parent, you don't just parent the way you were parented, man, that is so true you parent in a way that's good for your kids.
Speaker 4:My kids will ask how come you treat her differently than me? How come you do this to me? Because you're different people? What are you talking about? I don't treat my kids the same. I treat them uniquely. I mean, we have standards in our house right Sure. Talk back to your mom, go to bed on time, clean your room, make your bed.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:But you know, my kids are all so different and you lead each one. You have to take time to learn them and to love them well and lead them according to them. You just don't do it. Leadership's not static, yeah, so it doesn't matter what your industry is, that's my point yeah. If it's your family, if it's your bank you got a spaghetti restaurant, you run.
Speaker 2:They have those now. Spaghetti restaurants, italian restaurants they got Italian restaurants, italian, italian.
Speaker 1:Italian. Can we end on this question, as always, how in leadership it's important to be able to adapt, to change. I think we see it a lot in ministry that as leaders grow older in age they become more stuck to the ways that they've done things. And you know, at least in our generation, we've seen a lot of leaders just kind of this is how I've always done it and expecting to get the same results. But we've also seen other people that have decided to adapt and change and pour into the next generation. How do you perceive that in your own life? How do you prepare for that to change? You just mentioned earlier that someone made a comment that you've got 20 more years and, as silly as it sounds, but in your leadership there are going to be things you're going to have to change and certain things you're going to empower other people to do. Like, how important is that to a leader, an everyday leader, and even if you want to speak to it personally, yes, yeah, Well, the?
Speaker 4:my father-in-law has a statement. He says technologies keep advancing, but people keep staying the same. My father-in-law has a statement. He says technologies keep advancing, but people keep staying the same. So the truth is not much has changed in the human experience, right, we're still selfish. We still have highs and lows. We ultimately and I think this is true cross-culturally across every culture in the world Everyone goes to bed at night. Everybody wakes up in the morning, Everybody wants to have a meal, drink some water and be with their family, Like. At the end of the day, it's the human experience, right? So so there are some things about the human experience that will not change, that are just consistent. And at the end of it all, in ministry, we're still leading humans, but technology has changed. So a hundred years ago, we would have never thought about doing a podcast like this. We would have never even had the consideration of what it means to.
Speaker 3:We would have never thought about doing a podcast like this. We would have never even had the consideration of what it means to.
Speaker 4:we would have done a radio program or you know, buildings with air conditioning and LED lights and smoking lights. All that technology's changed and all that is in different ways of enhancing. It's so funny to me the most traditional church people fight the the modern accoutrements like lights and smoke and stuff, but the traditional churches were dark with stained glass lights and smoke in the little what the incense carriers yeah.
Speaker 2:the censors yeah.
Speaker 4:And so, anyway, we're just bringing back old school right In different ways.
Speaker 2:In different ways.
Speaker 4:But technology changes, so you adapt with technology and I'm so thankful. I mean, technology is part of the brilliance of God's created order in the minds of humans, right? I think some technology can be very dangerous, obviously. So I've chosen to be like the older I get, the more I want to be like an old soul. You know what I'm saying. So like I don't want to jump on everything, and I think that's part of being in my almost mid-40s too, like we've. I guess our church has a TikTok account and I just refuse to embrace it, and that's just me being an old man.
Speaker 4:Oh like we got an official TikTok account I think we bought it, we signed up for it and it's out there, but we don't ever use it.
Speaker 2:Oh.
Speaker 4:Because, there's some that's what I'm saying. Some technologies are dangerous or not necessarily prudent to advance the mission and the vision of the church. So advance the mission and the vision of the church. So I think it comes back to that too, like we're going to stay central on the great commission. That has not changed in 2000 years, as much as humanity has changed and technologies. The great commission is still what it is. Win the lost, disciple the found, help them discover their purpose and empower them to ministry, right.
Speaker 4:But the empowerment piece you asked. You know, as I get older there are certain things that I tend to like a certain way and I have to fight that, that I don't just go into preference mode and then sometimes it's easier, the older you get, to not care about stuff and that's why you empower it away. But that's not fair to the person you gave it to. You know that's not fair to say I don't want to do this. Would you just do it for me? It's one thing to ask them for a one-off, it's another thing to put in a job description. So I like to tell leaders simplify. If there's stuff you don't like doing anymore, just simplify, cut it out. Or if nobody has a heart for it, maybe nobody in the church has a heart for it either Like, can we get somebody to do bulletins for?
Speaker 3:God's sake.
Speaker 4:Well, nobody even reads the things anyway. Let's just scrap them. I remember during COVID our bulletins got COVID for about three years we didn't do them, but we do see the value of information and communication, so we're trying to be recreative. So we went through this whole season where everything was digital, giving was digital, communication was digital, sermons were digital and the people were with us for years and then that waned because technology's advanced and people stay the same. They want to know. That's what stays the same. They want to know, they want to hear from their pastor. So we bring back communication, things that work Anyway. So I think you have to be flexible, you have to be adaptable, but not everything is flexible. The gospel ain't changing. The Bible's true. Jesus is Lord. Only way to heaven is Christ and you've got to be born.
Speaker 4:I'm not good with technology. Actually, I don't like new apps. I never. This is a random factoid about me. I hate paying for apps. I think any app that costs money I don't need it. I'd never buy apps. I only download free apps and so if I find a cool app and it's free and they're like well, to use this, it's $3.99 a year Delete. I'm never paying. I'm just such an old man when it comes to it. This stuff should be free by God, you know like just some technologies I'm just not good with.
Speaker 4:I mean, I do like five websites, email and I have word processing like Microsoft Word. You have your typewriter in your office. You know I would have a blast with that, but I'm kind of really simple. I like analog watches, you know. I like old man colognes. I like I always tell guys just wear dark pants and a button up. It's like the classic man outfit forever.
Speaker 4:As long as I've been a pastor, I put on my shirt this morning. I was thinking about that. I was thinking about that. I was like man. I've been wearing a button up since I was a youth pastor. It's just what I've always done. I'm really. I think the older I get, the simpler I want my life to be. So, as things are evolving, I have to fight against. I'm going to be the old man who has it my way. But you know, on things that don't matter, who cares what kind of button up I wear, but when it comes to the church, well by God, this is the way we've done it since 2012. I, you know you can't do that. That's. That's not always good for your people.
Speaker 1:And what sounding board do you have like to to bounce some of these things off, like when you might feel stuck on something like who do you go to?
Speaker 4:Yeah, well, I think our team is good for that. I mean they're they're often looking to follow my lead. So you know you got to be careful. If you, if you throw the freedom to idea generate with the team, it can go a lot of different directions really quick. And part of it is we're raising up future pastors who probably have a lot of ideas of how they'd want to do it, but they're just not in that spot yet right. So you've got to navigate that. We have always had healthy relationships with other churches ahead of us. As we've gotten much larger, that pool has shrunk and I don't mean that that sounds really arrogant, but I don't mean it like that. But there's not a lot of churches our size and bigger in our tribe or that we're in relationship with. So we're having to knock on new doors, ask questions of new leaders and we're also kind of the ones people call a lot now for help.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 4:They got a lot of questions and they want tips from us. So we we love to give that away, but I'm thankful for the family of leaders that we have with the arc. You know, in terms of church world association related churches who should sponsor this podcast.
Speaker 1:That would be awesome Come on.
Speaker 4:A box of grapefruits and then you know, in my denominational tribe, the AG, there's some great leaders that we look to. I also like learning from business leaders. You know, just here in Clarksville, I think, of Trent Knott who owns he and his family own everything related to Miss Lucille City Forum, all that. That guy is just brilliant. And I like Sammy Stewart. He's now former retired president of F&M Bank but he's built a great company and he has a really even temper. He's probably one of the most tempered men I've ever met and he's led at way higher stakes than almost anybody.
Speaker 4:I know Also some military leaders that we really look up to that have led in hot, chaotic moments where they had to make literally life-altering decisions with no notice, and I just love to learn from some of those guys. I think leadership's always a balance of pressure and release all at the same time. So, yeah, those are some of the voices that we listen to. And then our people. I mean, of course you want to listen to the needs and the realities of the folks you're leading. If you're not a student of your crowd, you know what I'm saying. What are they saying, what are they listening to? I think about social media for the teenagers in our church and as parents, you know, I want to help them navigate that Right, because a lot of parents feel very helpless. I think about the crazy conversations we're having as a culture on gender and sex and sexuality, and many of our parents don't even know how to navigate it, but their kids are talking about it all the time and inundated with that conversation, so you learn also from the very people you're listening.
Speaker 3:Or you learn also from the people. Yeah, you're leading.
Speaker 4:You're leading. Yeah, so anyway.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Do you have any closing?
Speaker 2:Well, you know, pastor Mike, one thing that you said earlier that really stuck out to me was when God called you from pursuing a career in music to full-time ministry. You know, you said I didn't know anything. But you know, honestly, and I mean I'm not just saying this because you're in there, but I mean you know when it comes to theology and things. I mean you know you have a brilliant mind, I mean you're a doctor and I do no checkups.
Speaker 3:I just wanted to say that.
Speaker 4:Please don't ask me to look at something on your shoulder in the lobby.
Speaker 2:I had a growth there Go ahead.
Speaker 4:I have a doctorate in ministry. Yes, that's true. It's shocking.
Speaker 2:But the one thing that I've always admired and respected about you and it's encouraging, this is not a dig, but it's the fact that you always approach things with the eye to learn, with the eye to grow and the eye to consume and the eye to digest.
Speaker 2:So it isn't so much about having the right pedigree or the right stock or being the most gifted. I think one of the other great characteristics of a leader is be curious. I mean you are incessantly curious, you ask a ton of questions and you also put yourself in environments and in spaces and rooms where you can learn and grow. I mean, again, you go from being a music major to having a doctrine in theology and if people didn't know the prior history they'd say, oh yeah, of course Pastor Mike Smart, he's got a doctrine in all this, but it's like no, no, he put himself on a path to grow and to learn, to continue to consume it and to digest, to stay curious. I mean that's very admirable because you didn't come out the womb. I mean you're one of the best communicators I've ever heard, but you didn't come out the womb that way, like you learned and you grew into that.
Speaker 4:I was an early communicator, though Wah, and you grew into that. I was an early communicator, though Wah, wah. I mean, I knew exactly what I wanted and I'd say it Wah.
Speaker 2:Best for all the babies.
Speaker 4:I'm trying to lighten the mood because you're very complimentary and I appreciate that again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can keep your job for another week. Come on somebody. Can I get the organ to tune up somewhere?
Speaker 4:The thing about education honestly and listen, I'm not a good student.
Speaker 3:I don't enjoy school at all.
Speaker 4:Some people love the classroom, they love writing papers. I do not like it at all. I did it because I felt like the Lord told me to do it. But one thing I've appreciated as I've gone through different degrees is basically you've stepped into bigger libraries. That's the best way I know how to describe it. Advancing your education means you've broadened your ability to have access to new materials and actually the people that get doctorates are not smarter, they're just willing to explore further. Yeah, love asking questions. I'm very curious. You're right. If I find out you have a career in something I've never heard of, I want to come have lunch with you and ask you 50 questions. I just, I mean, I'm really intrigued by what makes people tick and what moves people, how things work. I remember in grad school Stephanie played a recital for a girl whose dad was a fireworks guy. He did fireworks shows like string the things together and then blow them up to the you know, Star Spangled.
Speaker 4:He did the shows on 4th of July and I said that is fascinating. Can I come watch you? He goes watch you Shoot. I'll hire you for three days to help me do it. So I got a job. This is the craziest job I've ever had. Okay, almost killed myself doing it truthfully. We I almost killed myself doing it truthfully we daisy-chained thousands of fireworks 3-inch, 4-inch, 5-inch, 12, all the way up to 12-inch shells for this country club in Springfield, missouri, their 4th of July show that they had this private. It was like a $250,000 fireworks display and I was in hog heaven, hottest day of the year, sitting in a tent with explosives, and I loved it because there were so many like I'll never not know. I'll never unlearn what I learned that day, and so that's the thing about learning. You can never take away my doctorate. You can never take away my degrees.
Speaker 4:You can take my job, my family could leave me, you can take, but what I've learned, you can never take that away. Never take away what I've had exposure to. And that's the fascinating part about being a learner. And I think leaders are curious because, honestly, there's going to be something that piques my interest. Like I'm thinking about this whole social media thing with young adults. Man, I kind of went deep. Or teenagers, I went deep into what that's doing to people because I have daughters and it's really damaging to people. It's really damaging to the psyche of teenage girls who I'm raising. So I've made decisions as a result of that.
Speaker 4:But it started with these curiosities. I mean I have this product social media. I have it, instagram in particular, and Twitter I had, but I knew what it did to me. But I'm like I'm 40. I can handle this. But then I started really asking a lot of questions and listening. And the other thing about reading or studying is you've allowed somebody else's years of expertise to give you an hour of their input. I mean it's not that casual Like think about Jonathan Haidt, who wrote the Anxious Generation. He's got decades of research and leadership that he put into 250 pages. I get to buy that for $20. That is brilliant. Everyone should buy that book. By the way, the Anxious Generation. But the concept of learning, curiosity. You're taking people's life experiences and the things that make them tick and you're just looking for ways to just learn it and explore it, and you can't take away what you've learned, which I think is great. Then you've got to filter what's valuable and true or false or smart or stupid or whatever.
Speaker 3:But yeah, I do enjoy learning.
Speaker 4:Yeah, Even though I don't like school and I'm not saying that for anyone who's in school you should go to school.
Speaker 3:School is great. School is cool. It's cool to be in school.
Speaker 4:Oh man, I'm just saying I'm personally not a good student. It's cool to be in school.
Speaker 3:Like hey, listen Classic.
Speaker 2:Stay in school kids. Stay in school kids Be cool Stay in school.
Speaker 4:That was a thing when I grew up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was a. Thing.
Speaker 4:So yeah, for all you kids out there listening to this podcast of grown men, stay in school truthfully. But to be fair, like here, I am cutting up. I was voted class clown in my senior year of high school. Let's go. So, even though I graduated with good grades, I've always had good grades.
Speaker 3:Yes, right.
Speaker 4:It's funny, like I had these kids. You remember last year we had these vandals on our property and did these donuts, the donuts, yeah, and had to get the cops involved.
Speaker 4:It was a big old thing. And I meet with these teenagers and their parents and their parents and I go hey, we want to forgive you, give the opportunity to own it, repent, say you'll never do it, fix the gravel. And these parents Like I remember this one dad. He goes boy, do you know what this preacher just did for you? He just set you free from a year in jail 1129. Because truly these kids vandalized our property and it was a very expensive deal. And I just said, look, I don't want to throw these kids in jail. And I said to the parents I go, kids like that become preachers like me. And the parents were like what I go? If I told you my story, it's a probation and jail not jail, but like getting in trouble with the law and the things we burned and the stuff we blew up. I said kids like that become preachers like me. God can change lives and so, anyway it is. There is hope for all.
Speaker 1:That's like a whole nother podcast. I'm telling you Kids like that.
Speaker 2:Kids like that become preachers like me.
Speaker 4:That's why I never get ruffled by crazy teenage boys or whatever. Yeah, when it's dealing with my girls, I get a little protective. Yeah, absolutely, but every teenage boy I mean, I'm hopeful for them.
Speaker 2:I've noticed that, yeah, man, you have a grace. Oh man, I mean I've seen you. Let me tell you something.
Speaker 4:My brothers and I were absolute hell raisers Absolutely. We broke everything, burned everything. We used to play with blow torches and make them. We burned my mom's man. There were patches of the carpet in our house that were permanently singed, where we would just catch it on fire before it charred it. Just burn off all the fringe and then put it out real quick and they'll find another. I mean, we burned. It's amazing that we're alive. I've never broken a body. I've had stitches a bunch. But we burned everything. We broke everything, we fought, we ate everything. Neighbors hated us, hated us and guys like that become preachers like me.
Speaker 1:Come on, that's the truth. I love that that is.
Speaker 2:I mean that's the distillation of the gospel right there.
Speaker 4:It is the power of God to change life.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 4:When I got saved, it was a light switch. It was an absolute light switch. I grew up in the South. We respect God, we respect the church. Like don't smoke on the church property, don't cuss in front of Christians, like all that stuff right. And that's how some people treat me. Now they apologize for their cuss At the university. They're like oh.
Speaker 4:Pastor, hey, and they drop their beer in their back pocket. We just know how to do that. In the South we have this view of the church world that we just respect. And I respected the church, I respected Christianity, but I was not a Christ follower at all and I put my life and the life of others at risk a lot. And then God saved me and changed me forever.
Speaker 1:It's like hey, pastor Mike, how are you?
Speaker 2:No words, pastor Mike. How you, pastor Mike, it is. So Do it again, do it again.
Speaker 4:No words were affected.
Speaker 2:They come up. Pastor Mike, it is so Good to see you, man All right.
Speaker 4:Okay, that was good, all right so now we're back to the guarding your integrity.
Speaker 1:Guarding your integrity. Just so you know. No place words were used.
Speaker 2:You're a leader as well, bro.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm a leader, oh man, pastor Mike, thank you so much for your time. This was awesome.
Speaker 4:Well, thank you. Thanks for what you're doing for this podcast. I think it's valuable.
Speaker 1:Yes, sir.
Speaker 4:And it's another way that we're able to help other people grow in their devotion to Jesus. That's why we do everything here, so hopefully, if you're listening, it's grown you as a leader, but it's also hopefully grown you as a follower of Jesus. The greatest leader to ever live is the one with the greatest crowd behind him, and that's Jesus.
Speaker 1:Christ.
Speaker 4:And he did it all for others, not for himself at all. That's right.
Speaker 1:Amen, that's right.
Speaker 4:Amen Awesome.
Speaker 1:Hey, and that's the conclusion of this episode. So we're so glad that Pastor Mike was with us. The heart of a leader. The heart of a leader. I'm going to go and listen to this over.
Speaker 2:That was gold. I'm telling you. If you have any questions, if there's anything that we could do for you.
Speaker 1:Let us know. Email us at info at lifepointchurchtv. You can also follow us on social media at LifePoint Church, or you can follow us our creative social media platform at LifePoint Creative. We're here to serve you, to help equip you, and it's a privilege that we get to spend this time with you right now. Until next time, Peace.
