The Worship and Leadership Podcast
Real conversations on worship, leadership, and living a faith-filled life beyond the platform. Hosted by leaders from LifePoint Church, this podcast is here to inspire, equip, and challenge you—whether you’re leading in ministry, in the marketplace, or just learning to lead yourself well.
The Worship and Leadership Podcast
Leadership as Influence
Leadership is influence, and true leaders serve others while helping them take steps closer to Christ. Our guests Dr. Tim Hager and Sonja Vick share their wisdom on what makes effective church leadership.
• Leadership means helping others accomplish God's plan for their lives
• Everyone has some capacity for influence, but not everyone develops the skills
• Both calling and skills are important, but must be submitted to God
• Leading well requires maintaining boundaries while caring for individuals
• Hard leadership decisions often involve recognizing when seasons change
• True submission means bringing truth to leadership while respecting authority
• Soul care is essential for leaders to maintain emotional and spiritual health
• Look for teachability, hunger for growth, and self-awareness in developing leaders
• The ability to process feedback without being offended is crucial for leadership growth
• Take bigger risks, address fears early, and practice regular confession
He's a wonder-working God, dr Taylor, he can do it, he can do it, he can.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he can do it. Yes, he can, he can. Yes, he can.
Speaker 1:Jesus said with man it is impossible, uh-huh, but with God, all things, all things. I firmly believe that word today.
Speaker 2:All things are possible. Amen, amen. Hey, we want to take this time to welcome you to our podcast. Thank you for joining us for Worship and Leadership by LifePoint Creative. And today is a very special episode because this is our final episode for season three.
Speaker 1:And Pastor Willie, it's going to be a great one. Yeah, this is going to be probably the best episode of the season. Probably, so Probably and I'm not just saying that because they're here in the room with us Like this is going to be my favorite episode.
Speaker 2:Yeah, who's in the room with us?
Speaker 1:today. So we have two amazing people here with us, and I'm telling you they are undercover comedians, to be sure. We have the director of our care team and she is anointed to be a pastor. I'm just declaring it over her. Ms Sonja Vick, is here in the studio with us today. We're so glad you're here, ms Sonja.
Speaker 3:Thank you, I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 1:Come on and then, man, we really I guess you have to say royalty, like that's the only way to describe this gentleman is royalty, a legend in ministry circles. He is our CFO, he is a pastor, he is a mentor, he is like, really a father here on the team. Dr Tim Hager is here with us today as well.
Speaker 4:Thank you, Dr Tim, for joining us. Oh, looking forward to our time.
Speaker 2:Come on somebody, and so, because we have such incredible guests today, we decided to lead our conversation down the path of leadership. That's right. And so we're going to talk about leadership, and it'll be personal in some areas, and so we want to kick off with well, pastor Willie, what is leadership to you?
Speaker 1:Well, leadership to me, to borrow a phrase from John Maxwell, is influence. It really is. When I think of leadership, I think of helping really to lift others and help them to accomplish and achieve the plan that God has for their life. So, honestly, when I think of leadership, I think of servanthood. I think the two are interchangeable. If I'm a, if I'm a leader, I'm a servant. That's cool. That's cool.
Speaker 2:I'll go with your answer. That's cool. That's cool, I'll go with your answer, ms.
Speaker 3:Sonia, what is leadership to you? I think Pastor Willie was just so eloquent when he said that, and I too agree. It really is the influence that God allows us to have in the lives of His people, and I think, first just understanding that it's God who opens the door and He'll be the one to supply the guidance and the wisdom that we need. But it is helping others to take another step closer to Christ, and that's what it's all about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, come on Step closer to Jesus, that's it right there.
Speaker 4:Let's go, dr.
Speaker 2:Tim.
Speaker 4:Well, I queued up Willie for that statement because I was going to pull John Maxwell as well just because he's been such an influencer in my life early on and my whole journey on leadership and whatnot. But leadership being influence. Another definition that has come out of leadership theory was with John Cotter and he talked about management really bringing organization and some consistency in what an organization does. But leadership is the forward movement and also produces change. I think that's that influence side that's talked about in leadership change that happens to individuals organizationally, and then movement that happens either individually or within the organization or the church.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Oh that's powerful.
Speaker 2:I love that Having a clear definition of what leadership is really allows you to be a better leader. Yeah, and I think that's where, in the context of church, it's really one of the spaces I've worked in most of my life. You know, one of the spaces I've I've worked in most of my life Um it. If you get it wrong because you define it on your own, um, it can hurt a lot of people, and so it's really important to have clear definitions and and you know, as you said and you quoted John Maxwell, there's people that have been able to define it and make it real clear for us. And so you know, instead of trying to figure out what is leadership, you know, ask, read, you know leaders, read, and so I think that's really important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let me ask this question here, dr Tim, cause you know, you, you, you talked to again, really as a leader drink some water.
Speaker 1:I Let me hold on, I'll spit a little bit. That's refreshing. That's some of the best taste wine I've ever had. I love how you really define a leader as sort of like this agent of change. So because the word leader is and you'll appreciate this term it's such a discriminatory term. People, when they hear leader, they instantly think of themselves okay, either I am or I'm not. So is being a leader, is it a skill, or is it like a calling and a gifting? Are you born a leader? Are some people never meant to be leaders, or is it both? What are your thoughts, and I'll throw it to you as well, ms Sanya, just on that leader is it a calling? Is it a skill? What exactly is leadership?
Speaker 4:If we're using the idea of influence as the main portion, that really doesn't categorize somebody from an age standpoint at all. I mean we can have in our KidPoint area. We've got little leaders down there.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Their influence, as well as the teachers specific, but we have individuals that are called into particular roles that end up having more opportunity for influence and change and movement and all those. So I think there's a calling in there. But it's kind of like being a witness. Everyone is a minister, everyone is a witness for Christ, but everyone has some kind of influence and change capacity within their spheres of influence.
Speaker 4:And then there's skills to that definitely, and any skill can be developed and there are certain capacities I'm thinking about in the parable of the talents with the different levels that were there, and it's more about the stewardship of what we have in our roles and what talents, abilities and influence we do have. We steward that well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so good. I appreciate that, ms Sonya. What are your thoughts as well in leadership?
Speaker 3:I think it's both. I think the important thing to remember is that we can't just depend upon our skills alone. If we have them, we have to submit them to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. We have to be Holy Spirit-led even when we're skilled, because apart from that, as Pastor Elmer said earlier, we can wound others not only others, but even ourselves and in the course of doing that we displease the heart of God. And so I believe that it can be an anointing and a calling heart of God. And so I believe that it can be an anointing and a calling, but very much both. Whether we are anointed and called, and gifted or skilled, we have to stay submitted to God because it all flows from him.
Speaker 1:Right, that's so good.
Speaker 2:I think of the example of David. You know, you're the. We're able to see his entire life pretty much in Scripture, just about, and you see him as a child shepherd, and then as a warrior, and then as a king, and he was anointed, like you said. And a lot of people just hold on to that, especially in church, like, oh man, someone spoke a word over me, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. But you know, they prayed for me and my parents said this and that. And it's one thing to be anointed and called into something, but there's still a process.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Like he didn't become king overnight. That's right, he had the calling, but God was still running him through the gamut to develop him into the position that he was going to lead. And so there is the skill, there's the calling, and it all has to be developed. Yeah, that's so good.
Speaker 1:So thinking through leadership. You know I love how you said that, dr Tim you know there's like multiple levels, multiple ages of leading and then there are different seats as well. And just starting with you, dr Tim, specifically, you've led over the course of your life in many different seats in ministry and higher levels and larger organizations. I'm just telling you, if y'all sat with Dr Tim and just had him share, you would be blown away just at the levels that you've led and what you've been able to oversee and the role that you're in now as CFO here at LifePoint Church. You know it may not be as much of a front-facing role but I think everybody here in the room would agree it is certainly no less vital to right, it is no less vital to the productivity effectiveness of our ministry. So you know how does stewardship influence the way that you lead as CFO of our church?
Speaker 4:Probably, I think, in two ways. I'll give kind of some thought to this, I think approach the task first of all. It's His church. God owns everything. Yeah yeah, Because that's really a springboard for approach, for attitude of what I take hold of, how I touch and those sorts of things. So I start there. And secondly, since it's his church or if I'm on assignment in an organization, I'm really there on his assignment in that role, really there on his assignment in that role.
Speaker 4:Therefore, I'm there for the, for to serve the people that are there, yeah, and for the success of the organization, or for the church. So god owns it all yeah and I'm here to serve, and that gets a lot into the um. There's a lot of studies that have been done, uh, just on servant leadership, but we really see how exemplified in Christ and even business models.
Speaker 4:whether or not they're Christian, they see the benefit of the values that are brought in servant leadership, of other people's success, and the values we find in scriptures about that kind of posture. So if I'm going to, I'm serving here. I'm thinking about you all, I'm thinking about the people that God's bringing to the church, I'm thinking about the way the church functions. And my role happens to be in this season because eventually we're all terminal in our positions that I want to serve him well because it's his church and it's his organization here.
Speaker 1:Amen Absolutely.
Speaker 4:So good Come on.
Speaker 1:That's great perspective there.
Speaker 2:Even that term terminal. Yeah, like, a lot of us go to work and you're like I'm going to be here as long as I perform at a high level. But things change. Our bodies change. Come on, my Lord, things change Too. Living with it. Yeah, yeah, our bodies change. Come on, my Lord, you know things change. Yeah, two living witches Right, get some water. Come on, I'm on, I'm out of water I got ice cubes, you got ice cubes in there.
Speaker 2:But things change, and you know, and everyone's replaceable, and that's the thing about you know, even in the church world we think, oh well, they're not going to ever let me go, or things aren't going to change. Things change, the seasons in church change, seasons in business world change, you know, everywhere, just in society and culture. And as things are changing, you know we have to be growing and learning. And then there's the, which I want to talk about a little later, the aspect of multiplying ourselves and investing into others, because we're not going to be able to continue to carry the baton forever, and so that concept of this is terminal at some point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I do want to say just piggyback, then I'll. I'll throw it to you, ms Sonia. I even think that's a double entendre there. Dr Tim, you know it's terminal in assignment and even terminal in mortality.
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 1:You know we will go home to be with the Lord and you know, pastor Elmer, you're going to be preaching this Sunday, which I'm so excited about, and one of the things you'll be talking through is legacy. I just think, man, what legacy will I lead? You know, as a leader, what footprints will people walk by and say, okay, here's Willie, this is man, this is what he did, this is what he did and didn't do, this is who he was, and so I really appreciate that, that perspective. There, ms Sonja, you lead. You know again, you oversee our care team and you lead with such a pastoral heart Again. That's why I know you think I'm joking, but I'm really. I'm so serious Like I have found myself. Even, how do you really balance care for individuals again that come in, and then you have a team that you're leading? So how do you do that? How do you have the margin and the bandwidth to do that, to care for individuals and teams?
Speaker 3:Well, I think it really goes to what Pastor Tim said. First, I have to stay connected to God. That's personal relationship, not just duty or assignment or task related because of a position. It is very much a part of my lifestyle that I stay closely tethered to God. Pastor Elmer preached a message some time ago and he used that word tethered and it just kind of was a pin and it really makes me think of John, chapter 15, right, jesus is the vine, the true vine. I'm a branch and I get to abide, you know, within the true vine, and so he provides all that I need. And so, in being able to care for people, first and foremost he's providing for me, so that he's filling me with what I need, and he gives me the ability to stay present with him First, prayerful for those individuals who are coming, but to see them.
Speaker 3:For the most part, I meet largely with women as God's daughters whom he dearly loves, and I get to trust him to provide the wisdom and guidance that they need. Oftentimes he's already stirring them. It's just that he leads me in maybe asking questions that cause them to further lean into what he's already stirring. And we look at his word what is he saying to you, and you get to live unapologetically in that truth and pursuit of him. And the difference with a team is I really don't see a difference in that regard, because we're all God's children, either a son or a daughter of God, and I believe it's important to see individuals, mm-hmm, not a collective, because it's not. Even though the Bible is for all of us. The truths are unchanging. God loves us all. He's gifted us differently. The calling upon our lives is unique, and so it isn't one size fits all.
Speaker 3:And that's why it's so important that we stay in our own lane, because we can look at someone else and admire God's gifting in them. We can celebrate it, but if we're not careful, we'll swerve over in that lane and try to become them, but that was never God's intent, and so leadership, I believe, has to really start with submission to our creator, the one who created us in his image, the one who has gifted us the way he has, that we grow in confident relationship with him, and so I get to do that, whether I'm meeting with individuals for care or whether I'm talking with team members who are still on a journey, because we're all on a journey, but we get to arrive at the same destination, and that's the truth that God is revealing to each one of us, and as long as it aligns with his word, we can celebrate that.
Speaker 1:That's good.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 1:I love how your approach. You said there's no distinction for you with the individual person or your team. There's still individuals that need to be cared for, and that's so good. It's a great perspective. I love that.
Speaker 2:Because we all want to be seen, especially as leaders. It's like people think when you become a leader that all of a sudden you have all the attention. It actually gets more lonely. Sure, Like you know, the higher you go the more lonely it gets, because you know several different reasons, but that's a great perspective that everyone's still seeing, regardless of their role or position. So love it, come on, love it.
Speaker 1:So, obviously, one thing that comes with leadership is pressure. I think it was. Pastor Craig Rochelle said if you want to be a leader but you don't want the pressure, well then you don't want leadership. So let me ask you this, the both of you. Ms Saeed, I'm going to start with you what's one of the hardest leadership decisions you've ever had to make, and how did you navigate it?
Speaker 3:I think we've talked about it a little bit, I think realizing when seasons change, because sometimes we do have this mentality of I will always do this, this will be mine if you will if we're not careful and, I think, sometimes realizing when God is asking us to maybe put a period somewhere and we want it to be a comma, and because we're so familiar with what it is.
Speaker 3:We've been doing that. I don't know what that thing is. That's next what that looks like. It's not familiar to me, so it's kind of intimidating or scary. Let me stay with what I know, and I think it's simply learning to trust God and obey Him. Amen and that sometimes causes relationships to shift.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know, I'm not always available to everybody who wants me to be available to them anymore, and that's with the leading of the Lord. Just because of conversations, maybe different rhythms of life, but Pastor Elmer said it, it costs us something to follow Christ, no matter what seat we sit in. Again, that's not a job description, that's just a lifestyle.
Speaker 3:And Pastor Elmer also highlighted David having to move from, I'm going to say, spiritual formation or maturity, and I believe that sometimes that can be hard because we're saying bye to some things that maybe in a season served us well, but God never intended for it to be with us always. So seasons, reasons and very few lifetime, but God remains unchanging and he's the same. So I believe, sometimes just really for me, flexibility and adaptability so if I could wrap it up with a bow.
Speaker 3:Flexibility and adaptability, so if I could wrap it up with a bow, because sometimes we're inflexible and sometimes we struggle with adapting, and I struggled with that more some time ago because maybe I was looking at the wrong person as far as leaders, earthly leaders and God helped me to course correct Right To put my eyes on him, and it's made being able to remain flexible and adaptable much easier.
Speaker 1:Yes, ma'am, that's so good. I love that perspective.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you for being part of the podcast today.
Speaker 1:Thank y'all.
Speaker 2:Messiah said everything we're all going to say yeah.
Speaker 1:This is great. Signing off.
Speaker 2:Signing off, that was amazing man, that was so good man I'm so glad we're recording this.
Speaker 1:Oh, wait, a minute. Hold on, jacob, the record button is off. My lord, dr tim, I'm gonna copy and paste that question to you. Good sir, one of the hardest leadership decisions you had to make, and how did you navigate that?
Speaker 4:uh I was. I was thinking over several different uh challenges that I that were top of mind in here, but I think the consistent uh point of each of those was stepping into the fullness of the role and responsibility I was being called to do okay yeah, um, because there's been times where, uh I I was, I've been tasked to step into, uh, situations of chaos, situations.
Speaker 4:If there's been, um, uh, people getting injured and I'm on, I'm the one that's tasked with being able to go in like the shepherd, yeah, be able to get the wolves out right and, um, uh, it, it. It takes something, when you have to do that or come in to bring healing or to bring order, to be able to do that with the appropriate strength, kindness and resolve, and the tendency can really be to want to shrink back and pass that up the line or have somebody else do that or just I'm just one of the team members.
Speaker 4:No, I'm actually called into this position. I need to step up into the role, own that and then bring what God wants to into the situation. So those kinds of things have been the types of stuff that I've had to learn and grow in and just really I don't get clarity about what it is that I'm supposed to be doing in there. But how does God want me to fulfill that and then walk in the permission of those upline?
Speaker 1:That's so good, Pat, that's so good. I'm telling you that's good.
Speaker 2:I'm telling you that's good Ms Sonia said a word earlier and Tim referred to it as you were talking about submission and in leadership, submission and it's. Can we kind of unpack that a little bit, just like what that looks like? Because I think we have our processes and we've learned, we have our experiences that have taught us things. But then there's that being led by the Holy spirit. You know this is a Christian podcast, so if you didn't know, and and when we were being led by the Holy spirit and submitting to that cause, there's times we have our plans and and we might have gone through similar situations in different organizations, or you know, you know circumstances, but but god might want to deal with something completely different, and so then it goes from our knowledge to submitting that to the lord, you know, and what does that?
Speaker 4:look like.
Speaker 2:What are those experiences like? I'll take a run at it.
Speaker 4:I'm just thinking. In most of my this last longer season of my career, I've been up close with top leaders.
Speaker 4:I'm at that table and with my gifts, to be able to then bring, execute visions, make the thing come alive. I'm remembering on different occasions. There's biblical stories about even people that were David's mighty men, that were there, or those Nathan the prophet that had access into that room to talk to the leader. There were things that sometimes leaders would want to do and they were absolutely brilliant and right on point. But I think the hardest challenges for most people, since they're not the point of the organization, is their obligation to stay under authority and yet still execute their roles well. So I'm thinking in terms of recently reading about David doing the census.
Speaker 4:It was totally within the scope and right of the king to be able to make that call and execute people who go out. One thing that I had just learned, which I'm talking here about stepping into my role. One thing that I had just learned, which I'm talking here about stepping into my role, is my obligation to, however the leader would receive it, whether most of the time it's in a shut door, just between those that I'm serving, the person I'm serving and then myself. Sometimes it's at an executive table of which I'm a resource to that table. But I have obligation to either bring the word, bring the counsel, bring the full scope of what they have in front of them and in doing that, whatever they end up deciding, I have done my part.
Speaker 4:Now there's only been a couple of times in my whole career where I was asked to do things I could not do, times in my whole career where I was asked to do things I could not do and I was either given a buy on doing that or, in two occasions, I actually ended up getting a phone call and another opportunity came and I was able to escape out. I just called it God that took care of that. But there is an obligation of loyalty and stepping into our role to fully put truth on the table, make sure that leadership has the full orb as much as we're able to bring it Right Of all the information there. Like David in the census, he had warning. He had warning from the man that was going to have to go execute that and have that sent all over the country for him, and he also had spiritual warning that came to him. Those two men had to still walk in the consequences of what the leader decided, but they did the right thing.
Speaker 1:That's so good.
Speaker 4:It's not just about boy. The Lord spoke to me. I have a loyalty to execute my role.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah yeah, they did the right thing. Yeah, they did the right thing.
Speaker 4:Oh, that's so good and they still lived in some consequence.
Speaker 1:They did, they did and that happens.
Speaker 4:That will happen. Sometimes organizations can collapse because ultimately decisions get made above we might do it tongue-in-cheek above our pay grade.
Speaker 4:But, that's not our role. Our role is to make sure we do that and God will take care of us in the end, and that's where we're getting into submission with God and our loyalty to follow close to him. I know of no place for all the changes and places that God has taken us, some of which have had situations that have been really difficult. No bridges have been burned. I can still talk to people, I still go back and people say hey, dr Tager, or say hey, tim, and so there's something and it's been painful, but also walking close to the Lord and walking fully in what I've been tasked to do, and sometimes the tasking changes and the job description collapses and becomes a different thing.
Speaker 4:Is it me or God that has me on assignment here? If it's God, then he'll work through leadership, he'll work through the organization, and I go on. And if I can't get over it, I probably need Christian counseling. I need to have a Christian mentor or someone to help me, of which that's happened a couple of times too.
Speaker 1:Yes, sir.
Speaker 4:Just because I needed some soul care and also some maturing to get through some stuff. But it's always worth it if we go ahead and do the heart issues. Our relationship with the Lord is well-maintained as we go through those things.
Speaker 2:Man, you just opened another door. I was probably 35 when I first started counseling and started ministry before I was in my 20s and for that whole time I'm like you know what? Like I just got to rest, I just got to take a better vacation, I just got to read a better book, I just got to listen to better preachings. Like I just thought whatever I was intaking was going to be the solution to soul care as a leader.
Speaker 2:But it was actually what I'm able to put out in a private setting and counseling that changed my world, and it was my wife that reached out to a friend of ours who's a counselor and they were able to set everything up and she's like Murr needs to sit down and talk to you and it changed my world. And then the next thing, after that, I have a friend in Australia. He's a life coach of mine till this day and, like I, if I don't have that, things just kind of bottle up.
Speaker 2:There's only so much. I tell my wife you know I don't keep secrets, but when it comes to decisions that you make and things like that. But you need, you need a space to care for your soul. And you know, and we got Miss Sonia here, so let's talk a little bit about soul care.
Speaker 3:I love what? The direction that God has kind of turned us in, because I believe submission, the direction that God has kind of turned us in because I believe submission, oftentimes, if we're not careful as Christ followers, we can believe that it's sunshine rainbows and lollipops all the time, which means that I'm going to get just the blessings of God all the time, and Christ never, ever promised us that.
Speaker 3:He told us that we would have trials, that we would have testings. It's what we do in those times that help. He told us that we would have trials, that we would have testings. It's what we do in those times that help develop us so that we can be the leaders that God sees us to be. And what I love is that God sees the completed us.
Speaker 3:We're just in process with Him and if we will trust Him and really learn how to submit, which means on a need-to-know basis I think Pastor Tim just hit that Sometimes we want to know all the things but we're really not equipped to know all the things, and God, who lovingly knows us, shields us from that, and if we're not careful we go down the wrong trail, looking for the wrong thing instead of just learning to be with him, and I believe submission is very much that.
Speaker 3:Be with him. This is his kingdom. These are the leaders whom he's placed in my life. I get to trust the Christ within them and I get to check my heart posture on a daily basis to make sure that it is pleasing and acceptable to God, because then it helps me to submit. Even when it doesn't make sense to my natural mind or I might have a question about it in my mind, I can still lay that down and just follow God. And so submission means that we get to unpack. Whatever it is we need to unpack, I think we talk about it every year around the Christmas holiday. Right, we talk about Advent and making room, but I believe that we really need to live like that every day, making room for more of God.
Speaker 3:We have him which means we need to decrease more so that more of him can take over and lead us, and so I believe that we need to live intentionally like that, and it leads us right into submission. Amen, that's so good man.
Speaker 1:Lord have mercy, we could just stay right there all night y'all. I'm telling you.
Speaker 2:I'm going to preach this on Sunday.
Speaker 1:I'm telling you, we just gonna take this, we just gonna splice together and sign Dr Tim's thing, and then I'm gonna say the Lord told me, that's it, the Lord that's it right there.
Speaker 4:That's a good word.
Speaker 1:Time for a drink, of course, when it comes to leadership, it's like I love that Again. The problem of the talents that you brought up, dr Tim, you know, it's not something that we hoard. Your leadership is something that we give away, and so one of our core values is to develop leaders, and so I want to ask the both of you, start with you, dr Tim, what do you look for when developing new leaders? I want to ask the both of you, starting with you, dr Tim, what do you look for when developing new leaders?
Speaker 4:What attributes or traits or characteristics are you looking to see when you want to pour into a leader? I think I really keep my antenna up to anybody that comes kind of into my orbit of some sort in there, but I'm just thinking of, uh, my colleague that uh I've reached out to to help co-lead strongmen okay and all that um and uh.
Speaker 4:Some of the qualities that I saw there was, there was, there was already a sense of um development going on in his life. Spiritually, uh, good thinker. He emotionally, he wasn't, he wasn't given to, uh, I'm just gonna say emotionalism I mean yeah he just I mean laughed and and those sorts of things.
Speaker 4:But I I really look for people have um, uh, enough seed of teachableness, uh, in there. Um, I think that they're they're, they're hungry not to just stay. They have a kind of a development mindset in there. They're going to keep on growing. There's some hunger for more discovery, yeah, and that becomes important and also some self-awareness People that aren't self-aware about how they're thinking, how they're coming off.
Speaker 4:It's difficult to start down that path because there's so much unpacking or other developmental type things that you have to get involved with whether it's immaturity or just a lot of other things on that other side. So and that's a humility which always comes out in that they can hear something new or they can really process without being defensive you know. So that's kind of all being in the mix in there, and so anyway that I saw that all in my my co-lead and there's many people that have different combinations of that.
Speaker 4:So, I think it's a different type of approach If I'm going to go for developing leaders versus someone in general. Discipleship or development, there's a lot of other things that kind of need to be healed, fixed, kind of brought to a level so that then more building can be done. So if all those are down pretty well, then I think we're on a path to move toward helping people have greater influence, greater movement and what they are engaged in and going forward.
Speaker 1:Right, I'll tell you this the teachability piece, man, that's huge. I think it's impossible to grow as a leader without being teachable. But I love that phrase you just said, dr Tim, about being able to process without being offended. That is, oh my lord, I think, the ability to regulate one's emotions, to regulate thoughts and input. You've used this phrase.
Speaker 2:I've actually co-opted this from Dr Tim to right-size input, and that is just a lost virtue yeah, I think a lot of us, a lot of us have probably lost opportunities, have lost leadership. Uh, you know equity with people because we weren't willing to process without offense yes, yeah, yes, yeah being able to set things uh objectively kind of out and just look at it.
Speaker 4:Yes, yes, this is my idea, but I'm just kind of putting it on the kind of out and just look at it. Yes, yes, this is my idea, but I'm just kind of putting it on the table for us all to look at it and uh process it, and all that without getting emotionally attached yes so some some of that detachment is actually a healthy, mature thing, uh, for people.
Speaker 4:And if they don't already, if they haven't already developed some of that, it gets really hard to go too far into leadership because there's so much that we have to do with how we're engaging people. Some people get hung up with things and they're off-putting the people. Well, to even bring that up if they haven't already done it. Sometimes with this it's off-putting. What do you mean by that? I mean, I guess we're not going to have a conversation, are we?
Speaker 1:Wow, yeah, that's a good one.
Speaker 2:You know where I learned this lesson the hard way? That right there.
Speaker 1:You want to talk about the quickest way to shut down your leadership development pipeline is just to respond that way to feedback. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm sorry, that's so good yeah.
Speaker 1:It's called feedback for a reason.
Speaker 2:But where I learned that lesson the hardest and the fastest is in songwriting. So I've been writing songs forever. But when we moved to Nashville early with 2013, 14, started joining songwriting collabs and I remember my first songwriting I'm like I got the best ideas and you show up and everybody has that mindset right and then you can tell who's been doing it the longest, like as far as writing with people, because they were just real mature about the feedback people were sharing. They're like, okay, cool, let's try it, let's try it. And there was just this ease about him, this piece, this confidence. But all of us that were like the newbies were like like real, like uptight and stubborn, yeah, and it just took. It took a few times doing it and then you realize, okay, this has nothing to do with the song.
Speaker 2:This has more to do with the relationship, and so, like you talked earlier about that that even through the hard changes in life, you still don't burn the bridges, because, ultimately, life is not about the outcome of what we produce. You know it is. We do want the fruit of the spirit? Sure, absolutely. But it's not about, it's not solely about that. It's about community and relationship. It's about our family and the people that we get to influence and make a difference with, and so I learned that the hard way.
Speaker 1:No, I'm with you, so I learned that the hard way in those circles, I was going to say same way and prior to coming on staff here just spending 20 years or so in project management for construction projects and things, and then just realizing, man, I remember I had a superintendent just tell me he's like Willie, you don't know your head from a hole in the ground, you don't know what you're talking about. And you walk into these meetings and you think you know what's going on. And I said, oh yeah, we're right on schedule. And we were off by like eight weeks and we were a million over budget. Ouch, the site manager was just furious about that and I thought, oh, I've really stepped in it Because again I'm sitting there thinking I know what's going on.
Speaker 1:And one inspection, dr Tim, one inspection in the field would have solved all of those issues. It, in the field would have solved all of those issues. It was something I just overlooked. And then again. So then my mentor sits me down and says hey, when you're out in the field, these are things you need to look for, these are conversations you need to have, these are individuals you need to make sure that you're talking to, to get information and you stop.
Speaker 1:How did I miss this? Well, I understand, you're a young lion, you're cutting your teeth, that's so. Yeah, so along those lines, miss Sonia, dr Sonia, pastor Sonia, elder Sonia, how do you? You know again, you've led hundreds, probably thousands of people, and people come to you and they swear up and down. They'll swear on a stack of Bibles that they are lovingly. Lead them, you know, through that and really let me just say this bring the truth to bear that they're not ready to lead. And how do you take their, how do you help them to take their next step, to be prepared to lead? How do you have those conversations with people?
Speaker 3:I think so much that has been said is so very true, but it really is about lovingly speaking truth, and I had to come to you a few weeks ago about someone who thought they were ready to lead and inviting them into the guardrails that we have in place and really telling me, no, I'm not going to do. That Really was a great indicator of, well, we're not ready to allow you to lead, you know, safely. And so that person really became very upset with me. But assuring that individual that God loved them, I loved them, they were welcome here to take their next steps as far as growing in relationship with Christ, but stepping into a role of leadership was not going to be their next step, and so I believe that it is exactly what Pastor Tim said earlier really not allowing fear to lead, and especially in those hard moments, because it really is about honoring God and really protecting his sheep, because if we're not careful, influence can be intoxicating, and so sometimes people want a platform and they want to establish a mini kingdom M-I-N-I.
Speaker 3:That isn't what we are about here. We are about advancing the kingdom, the kingdom of heaven, and so Christ is king, and then we get to fall in line in pursuit of pleasing him. But it really is listening to people wanting to encourage them to the degree they will allow, but being okay too if they choose to walk away. I still get to love them, I still get to keep praying for them, but I get to respect their choice. Yeah, we are going to be responsible for being obedient to God.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:For what we are called to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:He's the one who will manage the outcome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so good.
Speaker 2:Someone just recently.
Speaker 2:We're in sermon prep in preparation for this week actually because we're doing 2nd Timothy, chapter 3 the last few verses, 10-17 and someone in the group mentioned that there's been people that they've used 2nd Timothy 3 to manipulate people and kind of like to use it to their advantage and to kind of shape their results, you know, especially in church and stuff. And so I hate to say that it's unfortunate but it does, but that's because they're focused on the wrong thing, and you know. And then, if you look at the context of Paul talking to Timothy, he's telling him to follow his example but, he's following Jesus.
Speaker 2:He's not even trying to build his own thing. He's in prison, about to be executed, and he's telling him hey, follow my example, while he's chained up. But it's not so much the pride that he had in what he's accomplished, it's the life that he's committed to God to following Christ Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he talks about my aim, my faith, that's external to him. I'm heading in this direction. This is my trajectory. Just go where I'm facing. Let me ask both of you this Dr Tim, who is a leader that has shaped you, and how have they? And Ms Sayala, I'll ask you the same as well.
Speaker 4:I have to go back to some groundwork that John Maxwell built for me. John was still at the time. He was pastoring Skyline Wesleyan Church and he was just starting to get into the well. At the time it was cassette tapes and notes.
Speaker 2:What's a cassette?
Speaker 4:tape. Yeah well, it's kind of a recording device it captures. Yeah, it's kind of like a podcast For those of you at home a cassette tape is a plastic device with a sliver of film.
Speaker 2:You can see it at the.
Speaker 1:Smithsonian and you can see this at the exhibit at the Smithsonian called Relics of the Past.
Speaker 4:But going clear back there, for years I just really tracked him and he shaped me on leadership principles, high application to the church, but also he spoke to business people both sides. My ministry has kind of worked on both sides of that equation, so John's really, really a shaper for me. And then I had then, when I was in the district office in North Carolina, his book on 21 laws of leadership. Um, he, he, just that was just coming out and I got to work with his team because he filmed um, he filmed the uh video kit for that at Winston-Salem first. First there.
Speaker 4:So it was uh, uh got to see the launch of all that. So, that was years ago now, but John's been an influence for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's incredible to see that be on the ground breaking to that. That is awesome. I'm telling y'all, just sit with Dr Tim and just press record and just say talk. Just say please share, just sir, just share Ms Sonia, who has been some influential leaders for you.
Speaker 3:I've had many, but Pastor Elmer just referenced sometimes how it is sad that you have manipulation that occurs, and so sometimes leadership isn't at its best. But even that has been a blessing to me because I'm grateful for every bit of it.
Speaker 3:So, now that I get to embrace truth and freedom, and so, for me, I never envisioned, as much as I love God and love serving in any capacity that I could, that I would ever end up on church staff, and so I am so grateful for this opportunity, like humbly honored, that God said yes, you. And so, without blowing any of you up, several of you on this team are influential. I've read books, I've listened to messages, but I get to do life with you all, and God has used you, your encouragement, your ability to deliver and share his truth, and just your witness to help me really to understand a higher view of him, and so I'm grateful. So there are so many.
Speaker 3:I'm grateful for Pastor Mike and Pastor Stephanie. I'm grateful for Pastor El and Pastor Stephanie. I'm grateful for Pastor Elmer and Pastor Willie, pastor Bo there are so many. Pastor Tim I don't get a chance to talk to him all the time, but he is a gift and I've told him that before. But there are so many, even when I say that that may not be pastors but are shepherds.
Speaker 3:You know I have many sisters in Christ on this team that I value dearly, that are a part of my life, and I am grateful. And so there are so many that I don't want to leave out anybody because I don't want to offend anyone, but I'm just grateful for this inside view, mm-hmm, and what God is doing through you that impacts me.
Speaker 2:Amen.
Speaker 1:Praise the Lord. I was going to cry. I'm telling you, I'm not going to cry.
Speaker 2:I'll cry in the truck.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to cry in this podcast, but I'm going to cry in the truck.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you, ms Sonia, for saying that. Yes, ma'am, that is awesome man, this has been great. I do want to end with some for us. It's fun. Yeah, absolutely, because it just puts them on the spot. But we want to ask a few quick questions.
Speaker 3:Miss Sonia, what is your favorite leadership book? Oh, I don't know if you would consider it a leadership book, but I know by Peter Scazzaro. I know for me, Emotionally Healthy Spirituality really was a turning point for me, and also the devotional yes. You know the emotionally healthy spirituality day by day. Devotional is really good because we can't give what we don't have.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know, and so it is so very important to pursue health and well-being for ourselves, because oftentimes it's easy to want to give it Amen, but if we really don't have it to give, it doesn't land the way it needs to, and so that book was instrumental. That's good, dr.
Speaker 2:Tim, do you have a favorite book? Leadership book?
Speaker 4:Yeah, there's. There's one that I referenced it in in one of our trainings series that we did here, and that's the Leadership Pipeline, and Leadership Pipeline in the Digital Age is one that's been helpful as I'm walking with the Lord and my applications into organizations. It's been extremely helpful to allow me uh, bringing the correct uh application of my time, uh, the, the uh focus on what my role requires to help the organization move forward and then, um, the things I need to value at that level, cause I only have 164 hours in a in a week and I got to invest some wisely when I'm here.
Speaker 1:That's good and that's really good.
Speaker 2:Well, my favorite book is the Bible. Come on.
Speaker 1:I'm shocked that nobody said the word of God.
Speaker 2:That's a given.
Speaker 4:That's a given. I'm going to say it.
Speaker 1:I've got the greatest leader in history.
Speaker 3:Look, I have it right here with me, come on.
Speaker 1:She's the only one with a Bible. She's the only one. Oh man, I'm just messing, all right.
Speaker 2:If you can give your younger self one piece of advice, what would that be? We'll start with Willie.
Speaker 1:Oh man, what would that be? Oof, learn, you know what? Yeah, carry a pen and a notebook with you everywhere you go. That, that, that that would be the biggest thing, because you just never know when you're, when a conversation is really going to be a development conversation, like a pouring into um, especially like coming since coming here on staff, like you know. So every now and then, like I'll swing by like a pastor got his door open, I walk in, just hey, how are you doing? And then he'll share something and I'm like, oh man, that is so good. I don't have my phone or nothing. So I walk around with a pen and a notebook and just be ready to just download and receive at a moment's notice. Just walk around with your hands open.
Speaker 2:Just be ready to receive.
Speaker 4:Assume that somebody wants to teach you something, that you'll learn something. Somebody. Yeah, dr tim, uh, I, I think probably aggressively, in a quicker fashion uh, addressing fears, uh, fears that all the little tentacles come off of that, whether it be insecurities, whether it be shame or it be embarrassment, where the cause, I think, fears. Fears have been kind of a cap at times and, matter of fact, I just had a one of my best friends had just talked a little bit about that. He said you know, I don't see that in you. I think you kind of cut yourself short and I thought, okay, these years I'm still not seeing right here. Then, uh, so, uh, getting getting over fears, whatever that, whatever I mean, let's think of some specific things. But if I would have processed those quicker, um, it might have um been more helpful to the lord, but he's blessed, amen. That's good, that's good.
Speaker 3:I believe I would say, hey, don't let the negative comments of others or even your own negative self-talk limit you from really trusting God, who's sovereign and in control. He does have a good plan for you. I was born to a single mom just sharing a little bit, so I grew up hearing a lot that I was a mistake, even from family who I struggle with. Do they really love me or do they see me as a mistake? And so in some regards that really kind of held me back as far as really trusting that God loved me unconditionally, Like I'm not a mistake, and so I believe, really just take the limits off. People will have opinions and say things, but if it's not what God says, you don't have to hold that. And also don't be afraid of your mistakes. Be fast like David and repent and keep moving forward. Mistakes don't define us unless we allow them to. We get to keep moving forward with God.
Speaker 2:Amen, and mine is don't use too much Murray's product on your hair, because then you're going to be bald when you're in your 40s. My God, that's what it was.
Speaker 1:All that. You know, it was so big that pomade man, that pomade that stuff, brother.
Speaker 2:And then I used to put like a. I didn't put a do-right, but I got like a nylon stocking for my mom, I'd put it on my hair, yeah sir Slick it back.
Speaker 1:That's right, man. Don't do that, don't do that, don't do it now.
Speaker 4:It wasn't he needed to let his scalp breathe.
Speaker 3:That's what I needed Now it's breathing enough.
Speaker 2:For my teenage years, no, but for me it's very similar to that To take bigger risks. I think there was opportunities that probably passed up as a young man, because when other and this is not like just me pursuing things, but when there was opportunities presented to me where other leaders wanted me to like, hey, you should do this, I said no, I'm like no because I didn't see the value in it and you're not going to see the value in some things at a young age until you're older.
Speaker 2:That's true, and that's where leaders get to speak into things, just like a Paul and Timothy. And so, just in retrospect, I look at, you know, some of those early years in my teens and twenties and I remember the conversations where people were trying to lead me into certain things, to help me develop faster or into certain things, and I'm like, no, I don't need't need that, you know in my immaturity, and so just you know to listen. And then something that I'm learning, just even through our men's small group, is learn to confess you know a lot earlier in life, or else you're gonna live life, you know, caring so much.
Speaker 2:yes, again, I didn't start confessing the weight of many things until I was my mid thirties and I started walking in freedom. And we see that a lot with a lot of the men in our church that are now are just now confessing things and not not everything's a bad thing, but we're carrying things and so just learning the art of confession.
Speaker 1:So good, yes, sir, so Learning the art of confession.
Speaker 2:So good, yes, sir man this is awesome.
Speaker 1:I told you, I told you from the start, prophetically, this was going to be my favorite episode of the season.
Speaker 2:Man man so much said. We're not even at 60 minutes.
Speaker 1:I know. Man that was awesome. I'm telling you we could go the rest of the evening. We can, we can. Fortunately, we have.
Speaker 2:But hey, we got to say goodbye. Hey, we're so glad, and as Jacob hits the outro music, we just want to say thank you for being part of this season Season one, two, three and we're ready to come back with season four. Like we said last week, we're rebranding the podcast, so you'll have a new name, some different elements, and we're going to get a lot more of Pastor Mike in season four, and so we're excited to be able to have him on the podcast more regularly and many other leaders on our staff, and so it's going to be incredible. Thank you for being part of this journey. If you would like to know more about the ministry here at LifePoint Church, go to our website, wwwlifepointchurchtv. You can also follow us on social media, on our Instagram, facebook at LifePoint Church, and you can follow our creative social media at LifePoint Creative. And so we love you guys and we're so grateful that we're on this journey together. Peace out.
