The Worship and Leadership Podcast
Real conversations on worship, leadership, and living a faith-filled life beyond the platform. Hosted by leaders from LifePoint Church, this podcast is here to inspire, equip, and challenge you—whether you’re leading in ministry, in the marketplace, or just learning to lead yourself well.
The Worship and Leadership Podcast
Leading Through Surrender: The Power of Immediate Obedience
What does it truly mean to follow God's lead in leadership? In this profound conversation, Pastor Mike Burnette reveals the powerful distinction between simply having influence and using that influence as God intended—for the benefit of others rather than ourselves.
The conversation takes a deeply personal turn when Jayonna shares her transformational journey of surrendering to God's timing and direction. Her testimony illustrates how personal spiritual breakthrough precedes leadership effectiveness, and how saying "no" to certain relationships allowed her to step into the fullness of what God had prepared for her.
Whether you're leading a church, a business, a classroom, or a family, this episode will revolutionize how you view your leadership responsibility and inspire you to follow God's lead with greater courage and clarity. Tune in to discover why the greatest builders don't live in the buildings they build—they build for others, and ultimately, for the advancement of God's kingdom.
Ready to grow in your leadership journey? Subscribe now and join the conversation about following God's lead in every area of your life.
Hey, what's going on? Everyone and worship, welcome, welcome. I'm all tongue-tied right now. Welcome to the Worship and Leadership Podcast. You didn't expect that little hit from the audience.
Speaker 3:That was nice.
Speaker 1:My name is Elmer Canas Jr and I'm excited for today's episode. Thanks for taking time to join us today, and Pastor Willie, this is going to be a fun one.
Speaker 4:I'm telling you, I am super excited, I'm overjoyed, I'm brimming with excitement and jubilation. Jubilation, come on, because we have two very special guests with us today. Yes, we do. Sitting over here to my dextral side, which is right hand side, we have Ms Jayana Purcell, who is our central Kid Point director. Welcome in, jay.
Speaker 5:Thank you. Thank you, I feel very honored to be here. Come on, yes, thank you for having me. She's representing.
Speaker 4:She's rocking the Forrest, frank merch.
Speaker 5:Absolutely All the time. All the time Come on. This is my favorite hat.
Speaker 4:I love it.
Speaker 3:I've been noticing it a lot and you've been adjusting to greens and hopes to make it work. Green has become my favorite color and it's not because of the hat, it's because his name is Forrest.
Speaker 4:Oh, I didn't even think of that, no Of course you didn't See what you did there Can you buy that hat online.
Speaker 5:That I don't know. I got it at his concert. Because it says Forrest Frank live at his concert, if you buy that hat online.
Speaker 3:That seems like a.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's kind of disingenuous. I don't want to slander nobody's character Sitting to my left-hand side. We have an amazing. She got dextrose or whatever Sitting to my, my hamba dextrose Sitting to. Is it izquierda, izquierda, yeah, iz. Is it Izquierda, izquierda, yeah.
Speaker 1:Izquierda oh man.
Speaker 4:Come on, my daughter's taking Spanish this year. She's reminding me of my words Izquierda aquí.
Speaker 2:It's one of the greatest leaders that I've ever had the privilege of knowing like for real.
Speaker 4:He is energizing, he is evangelizing.
Speaker 3:And he is quite erudite, I agree about it, just hello.
Speaker 4:Y'all give it up for the one and only Pastor Mike Burnett. Thank, you.
Speaker 3:So in French it's a gauche and a droite, Okay.
Speaker 2:And left.
Speaker 3:What's Spanish left and right, derecha y izquierda? And then what is the boating terms, Like port side, yeah, port and starboard and starboard right. Yep Do you know the difference?
Speaker 5:in the bow and the stern of a boat. Andy Bernard said on office one time I just don't remember what he said Wow, thank you for pulling that reference out, just for the record.
Speaker 3:Yeah, cause.
Speaker 5:Aaron learned it and it wasn't because of him, yeah, so yes, I forgot it, but but that's when.
Speaker 3:Andy Bernard was the worst character.
Speaker 5:Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 3:He was great in the first couple seasons.
Speaker 5:Right.
Speaker 3:When he's calling Jim Tuna yeah, he's kicking walls and stuff when he became manager.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's really after you fell in love with Aaron. Okay, we're just drifting here. It's okay. The Office is my all-time favorite show, yeah me too. But once he got into like an errand and become a manager.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I went downhill.
Speaker 3:He's not a real human. So I can say this I hate him, yeah, but I don't hate real people, right, but he's a character and I hate him. I could not stand him. Yeah, and I'm oh man. When he was on the, he was out on the boat, right.
Speaker 2:Because he was filming a movie.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I was cap size. Oh gosh, I don't even. He's not real, like I would never say that about a real person. I just want to be clear. To be clear jesus and real people.
Speaker 2:He's ed helms is the actor who portrays wonderful. He's wonderful.
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah but andy bernard, andy bernard was, he can kick rocks, yeah, yeah favorite character of the office I really like kevin.
Speaker 5:I just really like Kevin and his character got so much better and better over time. Yes, absolutely. I love Kevin A little dirty. Yes, A little grimy, but he's just lovable. You know, it's like aw Kevin.
Speaker 4:Well, well, well, well, well.
Speaker 5:Yeah, that's seven wells, and it's actually six, I think you mean you fired me not because you didn't like me.
Speaker 3:He's like no, kevin, you're terrible at your job and they hug it out.
Speaker 5:Thank you that's the sweetest, him and dwight that's that's the final episode yeah, yes, I do love dwight too. Yes, did you?
Speaker 3:know he's a principal character all the way through. He's. He's the second name in the credits I did not.
Speaker 5:The first was uh steve carell, and then. Dwight Schrute.
Speaker 3:Rain.
Speaker 4:Wilson.
Speaker 3:So he's like the principal actor in the show from the whole time of the series. I think a lot of people thought he was just this nobody kind of random, strange character, but he's actually the second lead actor in the whole series and became the lead actor, that's what Steve Carell left. When you watch the credits, he's first name on the credits.
Speaker 4:But that tracks, though when you watch all eight seasons, I mean, you can clearly see that show revolves.
Speaker 3:it's really around Dwight Schrute Nine seasons, which is why the finale is him getting married to Angela and he's your favorite character. He's actually. He grew to be one of my favoritesvin is a top spot yeah of course I really.
Speaker 4:I just have always loved michael scott yeah, and the reason?
Speaker 3:there's a number of reasons. I think he's crazy funny as an actor. Steve carell is just brilliant. He's actually such a genius improvisational actor. Yeah, and a lot of that was improvisational, but what I've learned about him behind the scenes he was super disciplined, very serious about his role. That's why he's done all straight roles after like he's done all serious roles since then because he didn't want to get into a type.
Speaker 3:You know what I'm saying. But anyway, he's incredibly disciplined and unbelievably benevolent and kind off camera. You know some guys, when you're on top of the world with the office, I mean he was a top billing, actor. Yeah, generous kind, generous kind of like Keanu Reeves. That guy gives tens of thousands of dollars away to grips and you know coffee runners on sets Super benevolent and kind.
Speaker 3:That's what I admire. So once I started learning that about him, I just began to admire his character even more, Michael Scott. But the thing I loved about Michael Scott though as ridiculously silly it's all the stuff that you kind of make fun of him for was not. It was. It was insecurity and this desire to love and be loved, Right, and that there's a lot of sociology in that show for me, that I watch it after I've watched it a few times, a few times, I'm a little embarrassed, but anyway, nine times, Nine times, Wow. There's a lot of sociology there and I think his character development and the sociology of his character is absolutely brilliant.
Speaker 2:Michael.
Speaker 3:Scott hands down.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's awesome, guys. I like that. Are we talking about the Bible?
Speaker 3:Who's your favorite character in the Office there?
Speaker 1:The guy. Do you know the show at all? Have you watched the show? I thought we were talking about the office here at church my favorite character in the office here is.
Speaker 4:Al Burlow come on, that's my guy, you know, al is an absolute bona fide miracle he can walk in on two feet and the fact that he's alive and thriving man.
Speaker 3:it's fun to watch him grow over the years, but I've journeyed with Al since his first time here and he's a miracle. He is just a great part of our team. We certainly love Al a lot.
Speaker 4:That's true. We love you Al.
Speaker 2:You're amazing for real.
Speaker 3:His wife, his girls they're some of the you know. As a pastor, I get to watch families grow up and his girls still give me a hug and fist, bump me and talk to me. Been journeying with them a long time, Come on.
Speaker 4:Well, we are talking about leadership today, specifically following God's lead in leadership. And so you know reviewing the questions and things like that. And so you know, reviewing the questions and things like that, pastor Mike, you know you travel quite a bit in doing leadership seminars here on our team. I mean you have really sort of infused this culture of leadership and specifically of our core value of growing intentionally. And so I'm just curious, you know like, where did this drive in regards to leadership I'm not going to say obsession, but this passion for leadership kind of just walk us through your story? Where did that drive come from?
Speaker 3:Well, I appreciate the question. I think leadership is one of these really hard. It's kind of hard to define but it's easy to recognize. So how do you define leadership? I think the simplest axiom I've ever heard is leadership is influence, right. So everyone is an influencer of some form, whether you're just leading one person, even if you're leading yourself, influencing yourself. Leadership, I think, is also a spiritual gift. According to Romans, chapter 12, paul kind of rattles off a whole different bunch of gifts in the body those who lead, he said to lead well, lead with integrity. And then there's just the responsibility to lead that comes with being a pastor. That I don't think we talk enough about.
Speaker 3:In the developmental years of pastoring, I mean, I got into ministry because I love Jesus, I love the Bible and I loved helping people connect to Jesus and I didn't think of that as leadership. I just thought of it as just that, just loving God and loving people. Yeah. But the connection of those two and being willing to leverage what you're learning to help others, leverage your influence to make room for others, that's kind of my favorite part of leadership. Actually. I like opening doors for people that I never even walked through with them or creating opportunities for them that I don't get to enjoy, but I get to watch them enjoy One of my really good friends, wayne Francis, in New York.
Speaker 3:We'd gotten the opportunity to work with Israel Houghton here at our church and he had messaged me something about that and said dude, I'd love to get to meet him or whatever. And I can't remember all the details of the conversation. I said well, I'll introduce you. So I texted Israel and I said hey, one of my best friends is 30 minutes from you, has a church there, and it went back and forth and now Israel's like sings at his 50th birthday party. I mean, they're like so tight and I just love getting to watch that friendship grow and blossom and I'm not even a part of it anymore. You know what I mean. Both those guys are still my friends, but I'm not friends with Israel. Like Wayne is now friends with Israel.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that's a simple illustration of like I just love that God, for whatever reason, has chosen to give me a measure of influence and what I think good leaders do, because I think there's bad leadership that uses the same influence right. I think leadership is influence, so bad leaders use their influence. I think a healthy leader leverages their influence for the good of other people, and healthy leaders keep the betterment of others in their their perspective more than the betterment of themselves. It's always tempting to leverage it for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But what I want to do, and I think what Jesus personified and showed us, is leveraging his leadership for the world. God so loved the world that Jesus came, yeah, and so, anyway, the heart of the heart of God, I think it should be in the heart of Christian leaders for sure. I don't know if I'm even answering your question. Where did it come from? I think there's some of it's just supernaturally gifted by God for us to lead in this way, sure, and then we have to take that and develop it and leverage it appropriately for him to continue increasing that, anointing that leadership. So I think the Lord can lift his hand off of it at any time that he wants and I can expedite that by being an idiot.
Speaker 4:Come on. Yeah, that's a great point. You have to to your point. I would say that over the last two years, from a from a leadership perspective, you've been really laser focused in that, in talking a lot about holiness, integrity, righteousness, and so I do want to segue to this question here and thinking through in order to be a great leader, you have to be able to be led well. So I just want to read real quick genesis chapter 12. I think this is a good example of allowing ourselves to be led well.
Speaker 4:This is a very familiar story, genesis chapter 12. It's. It's abram, right before he's called abraham. And starting verse one, verse one now, the Lord said to Abram go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you and I will make you a great nation. I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you and him who dishonors you I will curse. And in all the families of the earth shall be blessed. And then verse four and Abram went, as the Lord had told him, and Lot went with him. His nephew Abram was 75 years old when he departed from Haran. So just thinking, I mean, abram grows up a pagan, probably doesn't know Yahweh, and the Lord speaks to him at 75 years old and he just says Abram went. So J, I want to toss it to you then, pastor Mike and Pastor Emma. Just I mean, how does that resonate with you, that immediate obedience from Abram?
Speaker 5:Yeah, he didn't. I just think he didn't hesitate and I think a lot of time we can be hesitant Did we hear from God? Did he tell me that? And he didn't like you said. He might not have actually known God, he just went with it. He knew, he felt that and he went with that leading and I love too that God told him. He said that I will show you once you're there, like he didn't show him then once you're there. But he said I will make you into a great nation, I'll bless you and make you famous and you will be a blessing to others.
Speaker 5:And the obedience that Abraham did, it wasn't or Abram at the time, it wasn't just for his benefit, but it was going to be for the benefit of others. And so when you're talking about leadership, you can't just also be thinking about your prerogative and what's good for you. It's like good for the masses. And I don't know if that is part of what prompted Abraham to just do it and be like okay, this isn't just for me, this is going to be for my family, this is going to be for generations and generations to come. And Abram's obedience it outlived him and I just think that's awesome. I think that's the same for us, that when we obey the Lord, our obedience will outlive us. The fruit of our obedience will outlive us in ways that we don't picture or imagine.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so good. Well, we are a product of Abram's blessing.
Speaker 5:Right, yes, right.
Speaker 3:Exactly.
Speaker 4:We're still living in the blessing. Come on.
Speaker 3:God promised here. What's interesting about that story is that same thing actually started with Abram's dad, if you go back one paragraph to verse 27,. The generations of Terah, terah fathered Abram, nahor, haran, haran fathered Lot, which would be Abram's nephew right.
Speaker 3:Haran died. So Haran is the son of Terah Abram's it's Abram's brother is the son of Terah Abram's it's Abram's brother. Haran died in the presence of his father, terah, in the land of his kindred, in the Ur of Chaldeans, and Abram and Nahor took wives. The name of Abram's wife was Sarai, the name of Nahor's wife Milcah. And then it says go to verse 31. Terah took Abram, his son, and Lot, the son of Haran, his grandson, and Sarah, abram's wife, and they went forth together from Ur of the Chaldeans to the land of Canaan. But when they came to Haran, which was the name of that third son, they settled there and that's because Haran died there and they named that place and then Terah died in Haran.
Speaker 3:But if you go back even further, god told Terah to go to the place that he later would call Abram to go to. So the call for Abram was actually on his father first, but his dad, in grief, settled in a place and died in his grief. And then God looks to Abram and says okay, now I'm going to use you to do it. Here's what I find interesting about that God is always going to be calling people to do things for him, and if I won't, my kids will.
Speaker 2:If you won't, your son will Like here's.
Speaker 3:Here's Tara. Yeah, tara was the one actually asked to leave the place to go settle in this new land. But when he got stuck in grief, when his son's, his son dies, or when he gets stuck in a position of disobedience, the Lord just goes okay. Who else can I use?
Speaker 2:And he looks to Abram but it is.
Speaker 3:It is amazing. God tells them to go, no promise of what it's going to look like, no, no roadmap. And this is where I think a lot of people just struggle with. Just obedience to God is we say I'll obey when I, when I understand, when I see the end, when I, when it makes sense. One of my best friends took over a church out of state. He was in California, moved to Ohio and, as he's trying to discern, is this God's will? He would tell me his pros and cons and I would go bro, I hear you. And then I would ask him this question what's the Lord telling you? And he would say well, I feel like the Lord's telling me to go. But I just I kind of worked this out in my head. I was like no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Drop the pros and cons list. What are you and your wife sensing from God, to go or not? And he said but it just doesn't make sense. The finances, the transition. I'm going from California to Ohio, sunshine to snowshine.
Speaker 4:You know it's like all these things.
Speaker 3:And I said, well, will you go anywhere God tells you to go Will?
Speaker 2:you do anything God tells you to do.
Speaker 3:And I think the thing about Abram that's so powerful. He says I'm going to make you a great nation. His wife was barren.
Speaker 2:That doesn't even make sense.
Speaker 3:But he calls him to go and so Abram went. There's the reason for the blessing. It's not because he went and it was all sunshine and roses. It was hard, it was grind, it was years of waiting for promise, it was mistakes, it was Hagar and Ishmael in the midst of all that. I mean. Abram didn't even get it right the whole time, but he still stayed on course to obey the Lord and when it got hard he stayed focused. He just didn't go. Well, I'm not going to. I remember the story was his wife even said God's not hearing us.
Speaker 3:Just take my servant and get pregnant. Abram was such an idiot he's okay but in repentance he got his head back on straight and he got right with God, and then the Lord came through with the promise of a son. Anyway, I think that obedience, immediate obedience and then sustained obedience that's the other side of obedience. Okay, because I'm going to tell you something. Think about King David in in first Samuel, the first, second Samuel in the Samuels. So Saul is King. And then the Lord raises up a desire. Saul is now wicked and he's prideful, and God wants another king. So he sends the prophet to go to Jesse and say I want to, I'm to pray over your boys, and all the sons come out except David. And then the prophet says there's another son, yes. And they say, well, yeah, he's out in the field. And he said bring him in. And he sees he's ruddy and handsome, right, he's a young redhead, that's right. And he anoints him to be king. But he didn't appoint him as king right away he was anointed, like 10 years before he was anointed
Speaker 3:king right, so immediately he goes and works in the king's court. He's the anointed king, but he, the king, is still alive. And in fact, david was like defending this king, even though he's the one who God gave the job to. Because that immediate obedience and persistent, like consistent obedience, I like that. You got to not just start, you got to finish, yeah, and you got to keep staying obedient. And that's the story of Abram that continues even when he messed up. I just shared with our men in Strong Men's Night, like how do we fail and how do we stay focused when we fail? Like a mess up isn't the end. It's a way to learn humility and repentance and sorrow, but it's also a time to get up and keep going, my goodness. And so there's immediate obedience and sustained obedience, and I think Abram's story is.
Speaker 3:It's a great testimony of sustained obedience which then brought the offspring of Abram was ultimately the stand obedience which then brought the offspring of Abram was ultimately the offspring of Eve was Jesus, yes, yes and us. That's why I said to your point Jayana, we're living in that same blessing of his obedience, yeah.
Speaker 1:And we talked about that last week. We mentioned how Saul. Saul was appointed anointed king, but he turned from God. And then David they all made mistakes, but then David, even in his mistakes, he always kept turning back to God. He lived in repentance, and that makes a difference.
Speaker 3:It took him a long road to get there. On the Bathsheba incident, it did, I feel like some stuff. David was like, oh my bad God, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, but the Bathsheba one he went into full on cover up mode, yeah months.
Speaker 4:That's a good point, because he has an affair Right.
Speaker 3:And then she comes and says oh, by the way, king.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I'm pregnant, yeah.
Speaker 3:He's like oh man, let me figure this out.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And he calls her husband in to get him to go home and sleep with her and he won't do it. The guy's got more honor than David.
Speaker 4:Yes, that's what's ironic.
Speaker 3:And then he gets him drunk, yep, and he ain't drunk enough to go home and sleep with his wife, so David sends him to the front line to be killed.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So think about the nine months of this story. By the way, the whole story starts with in a time when kings are at war David was at home.
Speaker 3:I heard a pastor say once David was safer in battle than he was at home. Wow, jesus. By the way, that sin stayed with him forever. It cost his family. There was chaos in his next kids and when you read the genealogy of Jesus in Matthew's gospel when it talks about Jesse had David, david had Solomon, who was the son of Bathsheba, the wife of Uriah Like that affair was in the, it's like an asterisk. You know, like we got a little commentary on that.
Speaker 2:That never left.
Speaker 3:David's story. Even though he was forgiven, he was restored, but that stuck with him forever. I mean, we still talk about it now. But the difference with David, though, even though it took him nine or 10 months to get to a place of humility and brokenness, he found humility and sorrow and repentance and he accepted the outcome of his behavior and then he moved on in serving the Lord and he committed. He said I will teach transgressors your ways and be good. And then I love this In Psalm 51, david has this whole process of how he repented, but he said but be good to Zion, build up the walls of Jerusalem.
Speaker 3:In other words, he starts praying don't let my sin destroy all these people. And that's part of leading for the long haul, like if you're a leader with integrity and purity. That's why we've been pushing on it as a staff for the last couple of years, because our failures hurt others and the larger your influence, the larger the damage. So part of why I'm kind of old school with this stuff, like, just be guarded and be boring, do less and have less and be simple and don't cause chaos. Do less online, give your passwords away, like because the consequence of your failed decisions has a lot more ripples in it now, and that's why david prayed god, please be good design. Please be good design. Please protect Jerusalem. Keep the walls up. Don't let my sin destroy my nation.
Speaker 3:that's so good and that's part of that god. He's a man after god's heart because he figured out sorrow, humility. Of that God. He's a man after God's heart because he figured out sorrow, humility and, by the way, he never had a big mistake like that again. That's right. Praise the Lord, praise.
Speaker 4:God, that's so good. It's kind of keeping on that, on that, really, that tension and temptation to have an escape valve, that's what that's the word that kept ringing in my, in my head, pastor Mike, was, when it comes to obedience, when it gets hard, the enemy wants to offer an escape. Vow, like hey, do this? Like kind of short circuit. So I'm thinking through Luke, chapter let's see 22, verse 42.
Speaker 4:This is Jesus praying in the garden and saying Father, if you're willing, remove this cup from me, nevertheless, not my will, but yours be done. Verse 43,. And there appeared to him an angel from heaven, strengthening him and being in agony. He prayed more earnestly and his sweat became like drops of blood falling down to the ground. So here we see Jesus. I mean, you know, mere hours before you know he's about to die for the sins of the world, and even our savior, even God in the flesh. You see him in his humanity, wrestling with this and saying Lord, if there's any other way, like, we're, just remove this cup. So can you just talk through, pastor Mike, you may be even. And then, jay, I want you to chime in too, just in your leadership, those moments, maybe there's a story that comes to mind where you have just thought God, this is too much for me, and maybe even the enemy might've tempted you to kind of pull away or take that escape, that escape route in regards to obeying what you know the Lord told you to do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's a verse that says that whenever you're tempted, you're never tempted beyond what anyone else can bear and the Lord will always give you a way of escape. So I feel like God always gives you an escape from temptation to sin and the devil will always give you an escape from the will of God. So, like when you're in God's will, you're doing something for the Lord, like Jesus at the cross. That temptation to escape it, that is never from God. If God said to do it, you got to finish it. But the enemy will always tempt you and sometimes it's with what seems like God opportunities.
Speaker 3:One of the things I told a guy in our church he was looking at a job opportunity out of state and it was like a large pay raise. And I just made the simple statement to him in prayer when I was praying for him. He's been a part of our church since 2012. And I said, lord, I just pray that you give clarity and wisdom and the will of God. A man's heart plans his steps, but the Lord directs his path. I said, lord, I know not every good opportunity is a God opportunity. Would you clearly let him know what is the Lord leading him? And he said. That statement confirmed to him and his wife this good opportunity was not from God. And I just think the Lord gives you an escape from temptation. The devil will give you an escape from God's will, that's good.
Speaker 3:And so you have to determine. This is part of leadership grit, right, just determination and grit. When you said, what's a story, I got a thousand stories of wanting to leave and quit and like bail out Cause it's hard. I mean, this work is hard and heavy and you think about it, you go to bed with it, you wake up with it and it's and especially as we've grown, our influence has grown and that also means the critics the list of critics have grown and and that stuff doesn't really even bother me so much, but it's, it's the overwhelming part of taking a risk to do something God puts in my heart in my own prayer time, and then I tell my wife, and then I tell our team, and then I tell our board and then I tell our church and I'm like this is what we're doing. And there have been so many times I'm like Lord, let somebody else do this. This is nuts. But I have this personal conviction that I'm on assignment and until the Lord releases me from that assignment, I don't even have the privilege of thinking about leaving it, and so I believe the Lord will release all of us from this assignment.
Speaker 3:I heard at an ARC pastor's conference this spring. He said every pastor's interim. Well, that's sobering. Every one of us are interim. Somebody else is going to be in kids' ministry after you and somebody was there before you. They were interim until you're not here, until unless the Lord returns soon. You know we're all interim.
Speaker 3:I didn't start this church. I probably won't close it. You know what I'm saying. Like somebody else will be the next pastor and I don't know the timing of that. The Lord does, but I'm on assignment and it's.
Speaker 3:It's one of those statements like how do you fight the temptation to dip out when you're, when you're convinced of an assignment? You can't take the next thing until you've been released from the first thing. And a lot of times you know with with, I think, in younger leadership, you think this is what I'll do for now and then I'll find the next place or the next opportunity, as I'm resume building and I came here at 30 and I thought I'm going to be here, I'm going to build here, instead of jump from one place to the next, to the next. I just want to build that resume in one place and there's something really settling about that, that I'm not looking and longing and again, I'm committed, like I'm on assignment till the Lord releases me. But. But yeah, there've been times where there've been temptations, where it's been hard, where things have been appealing. I've been called about, I've been asked to be a college president in two different schools.
Speaker 2:I was like I am not a college president.
Speaker 3:I know that about me. I hadn't been the university of tennessee yet. I'm just gonna say that okay, okay, but, uh, but I'm not. That's just not me. I just know there's some things you get called and invited to and you just that's not even my gift set or my wheelhouse, you know. But yeah, I'm not every good, good opportunity's got opportunity until the lord releases you. Because what? What can happen is when it's hard or heavy or somebody on the team frustrates you, you go. This is my out, this is my out. I just can't take it anymore. It's like well, man Jesus dealt with a lot of frustrating people and he tried to reconcile conflict and he even looked at Judas the day of his betrayal and said do it quickly, friend.
Speaker 4:I just love that Jesus called him friend, he didn't call him.
Speaker 3:You dirty scallywag Like come on bring it Judas.
Speaker 5:That was first century century language I don't think jesus would have used the word scallyway. But jesus looked right at judas and said come do it quickly, friend. I think that's wild. Yeah, call him his friend. Call him friend.
Speaker 5:I think for me, when I choose or when I'm debating or tempted not to obey whatever the lord is prompting me to do, whether that's a decision or maybe an action or an invitation that someone has given me to step out more, and you know, ok, speak at the gathering or lead this huddle, like it's always fear, and it's fear of like, oh no, god, like you haven't called me to do that, like it's someone else and it's normally. Then I let the enemy inside and tell me lies and all these things, and it usually comes from fear of man instead of fear of God. And I think that is just the root of obedience is I want to be. I want to fear the Lord more than anything else. I want to please him above anything else. I want to please him before pleasing myself and what I feel comfortable with, and usually that's just okay. I'm just going to stay away and not do what I truly know that God has called me to do, even though it's scary.
Speaker 5:And so for me, it's just always saying I'm not going to fear what others say, I'm not going to fear what the enemy might say, I'm just going to fear the Lord and I want to be pleasing to him and obedient to him and whatever that looks like. If it looks like I got to sit and wait and I wait for my opportunity, then I will. If it means when I get asked to do something by leadership that I respect, you know, like coming on this podcast, okay, I'm just going to do it because I I trust my leadership, because I trust the Lord and yeah, so that's where mine usually comes from. That makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there's, there's this whole, not concept, but in in the whole obedience sphere, like we could all be obedient, but not immediately, like you know, just thinking about scripture, like Jonah you know, like he eventually went where he was sent, but it took him a while, and we all know the story.
Speaker 1:you know the whale or the big fish, and and how is that? How is that something that in your leadership, pastor, and Gianna as well, like as you, you guys are making decisions, as you guys are dealing with people there's there's the temptation of stepping out of God's will, but then there's also the delay. And how do you manage that? How do you manage the delay?
Speaker 5:I mean, you know, something I was convicted of recently with the Lord is that delayed obedience is still disobedience, and I just I do want to be like Abram and act quickly, and so I think there's also times, though, where we have to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit, and there is times where he says to wait, and there is preparation sometimes, and so we have to balance the. Okay, I'm going to be quick to act because I feel this, but I think there are times for that. But, again, I think that's just being sensitive to the Holy Spirit, knowing how he speaks to you directly. I think, too, wise counsel is always great, inviting other people in, but sometimes I feel tempted to make a decision quickly because of the pressure of the people waiting for the decision, and instead of that, I just want to wait on the Lord. Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 3:I just want to say I think you are a great leader and our team admires you tremendously, and I think part of what is so admirable about you is your temperance, is your ability to trust processes and trust those that God's placed in your life. I remember my first ministry job, I mean. I just, I did what my pastor told me to do.
Speaker 3:I never told him no, not one time ever because I trusted him and to this day, if he called right now I'd probably say guys, I'm sorry we need to pause this, because I just honor his place in my life you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3:But I think it's one of the things that I admire about you You're not opportunistic, you're not a ladder climber, thank you. You've served the vision of the place well and you've built into that and to that and you've modeled temperance, which I appreciate, and I admire that in you. So you're asking a great question. My mentor, pastor Rod Lloyd, one of our overseers, wrote a book called Immediate Obedience.
Speaker 3:We actually made our older two daughters read it and write a paper on it because we would yeah it's good parenting, I don't know, but we quote that immediate obedience, delayed obedience, is disobedience, but I think there's different levels to what that looks like. So if I'm at a restaurant and the Lord says, pay for that family's dinner, I'm just going to do it. I don't have to pray about it. I rarely pray about those things because I don't think the devil is going to tempt you to be generous.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you don't even have to pray about it, right? I don't think that.
Speaker 3:Satan is going to tempt you to be a fruit of the spirit, bearing kind of people generosity or whatever.
Speaker 3:And if I'm going to, if I'm going to miss God, I want to miss on the side of, but I was generous, you know. So there's the immediate obedience in moments like that, but as your, as your leadership grows, that immediate obedience is not always complete obedience, and what I mean by that. It was 2020 that we bought land on tiny town and I said I don't know what we're going to do with this land, but we felt really convinced to buy the land. The board agreed, our team was in agreement and we could either hold it, sell it, flip it, whatever, or we may build on it one day. And then it was our church. We were coming out of COVID, so we didn't need the second campus. We're regrowing the church.
Speaker 3:And then we got to the point where it's like, hey, we got to put some feet to this thing and make a decision, and I had a real peace from God. But I have a process that I'm submitted to for major decisions. But I I knew what I felt the Lord was telling me to do and the wise counsel is not help me discern the will of God from the crowd. The discern the will of God is Stephanie and me and our leadership top leadership team agreeing, but then it's like let's discern the how, which is a different process. So we're not deciding on this anymore, we're discerning how to do this, and the larger your leadership grows, the more those factors come into play, which drives me bananas.
Speaker 2:Because I'm not a.
Speaker 3:I'm not a come on. I'm not a slow process guy, I'm a let's go, when the joke has always been with builders here. Pastor Mike, when do you want that done? Yesterday?
Speaker 2:Yesterday yeah.
Speaker 3:As soon as possible, cause I am an immediate let's get it done, let's go, let's move. But you have to. You have to mature into trusting process and systems and then leaning on the wisdom of team. So it's not so much like immediate obedience for me is not have the building, just land on the ground.
Speaker 4:Yeah, right.
Speaker 3:There's now a three year process including fundraising and strategy and design and tweaks and changes and more fundraising and more tours, and then waiting and being the hammer that's pushing all the thing along. But temperate as a but but. We are in obedience to the thing that we were told to do. Now we have to journey through the timing of the thing that we were told.
Speaker 1:Can you speak into that Cause? There's a lot of leaders listening and maybe pastors, and the temptation to just make the decision for the sake of letting things be and happen a lot faster. You know, because there are people waiting on us to to make decisions and and to hire people to say yes or no. What colors the wall?
Speaker 1:you know all these different types of decisions, various levels. But when you say, like certain tiered leaders, it's really easy for them just to feel like you know what I have the authority, I have the position, the title, I them just to feel like you know what I have the authority, I have the position, the title, I'm just going to call it, you know. But but you've, you've submitted yourself, you know and, and you you've led through this surrender that, even though, like you're, this leader, we all, we all admire, you know. But I think why we admire you is because you, you live in this place of surrender, not just to God, but even to systems and structures. And why is that so important for a leader like yourself?
Speaker 3:Well, I appreciate those sentiments. I I've. Again, I think obedience to what and obedience to how are different, so I'm going to do what God tells me to do, but I have a system that I've submitted to, including unity with my wife, Number one. If she's not feeling it, we're not, I'm not even bringing it to the leadership and we're pastoring together and and at the end of the day, even if she, when she wasn't technically on staff, we've been doing ministry and our life is to be in unity under Christ together. Right, but then we have decided I I implemented this from the very first board meeting when I was pastor here at 30 years old, in 2010.
Speaker 3:I said I will never lead our board through majority votes. If it's God's will, he has one will and your job as a team is to discern that with me in unity. And so if ever one person doesn't have a confirmation from the Lord on the thing we're trying to do, then the answer is no, and they couldn't believe that. I would say that I said well, look, God has one will and your job on this board is to help me discern it.
Speaker 3:That's good, Especially as a young leader taking big. I mean, I remember the first big decision we did was to change the name from Cornerstone Worship Center to LifePoint Church and I I knew I wanted to do it when I interviewed yeah, Because of a lot of reasons, but it needed to be done.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But these guys love that name and they love the history of the church and it was a five-year-old church but they helped literally lay bricks and paint the walls of the original building. So I had to lead them there. And then I'll never forget we were at a Mexican restaurant, because that's where the Holy Ghost actually does his best work Come on and all of a sudden chips and salsa.
Speaker 3:So we were sitting together and I had pitched the idea, I'd written up a whole thing about it, and I said but guys, I want to remind you, I'm submitted to you that if we're not all in agreement, we're not going to do it. And I had one holdout. He was like man, I just love our old name and I don't know why we got to change it. And I say, are you asking Are? And so I shared some of the why. He just kind of sat there as he's eating and we just prayed and sought the Lord and he came along he was like yes, of course we need to do this.
Speaker 3:And we just had unity, and I'm going to tell you why. The Bible says that. How good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell in unity and praise the Lord, and there's a blessing on unity.
Speaker 3:Well, a leader has to know that their decisions impact people, and so a good leader is going to do things that bless people. And the more people you're impacting, the more you need to be sure and confirm, like man, this is God's will. So we seek counsel at the top level of our organization, which is our overseers, our board and our exec staff and our pastors, and we want unity on major decisions because we know it's going to affect thousands of people. And then, once we have unity, then the council is how we're going to do it. So I am submitted.
Speaker 3:I was talking to a pastor recently who was a little bit more of a renegade, a little bit more like just kind of does his own thing, and I certainly started that way in leadership. My first pastor used to tell me boy, you shoot from the hip and clean up later, and I didn't know if that was a compliment or what. Anyway. So I was telling this young leader recently. I said hey, man, I don't make any decision without talking to my pastor and our overseers and board unanimous confirmation. He couldn't believe. I said that.
Speaker 3:I said I mean, I'm not talking about like repainting a wall or starting a new small group for men, strong men, but even that we sought unity on as a team and we got confirmation from the Holy Spirit on that.
Speaker 3:But I don't do anything major in our church without agreement and the blessing of our team because there's a, there's a piece that comes with their blessing. And I'm gonna tell you it's hard when you go do something crazy for God. It will go hard and you'll get contention and you'll get people out there that have their critics and critics are loud. They think they're right too. That's the crazy part and that can rattle your. Did I really hear from God?
Speaker 4:Am.
Speaker 3:I doing the right thing, and I've certainly had those moments. You know, stephanie and I just have had a number of those honest moments where I'm like, why did we do this? Are we sure we are from God? But then I can go back on my leaders and go we heard this from the Lord collectively and we have a piece in that. That's good and so, anyway, I am submitted to our leadership here and I'm the driver, I'm the pusher, I'm the visionary, but I am submitted.
Speaker 3:And our board knows especially. They can check me on anything and I'm submitted to those guys. It's part of I think it's part of leading well and leading for the long haul.
Speaker 1:That's good.
Speaker 3:John Bevere that talks about being a leader undercover. That's right. Yes, he wrote a book on it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, Amazing book. Yeah, speaking to that, that very concept of being undercover which, again, I do think I mean. The Lord says, and we all agree the Lord has done supernatural things through LifePoint.
Speaker 3:Church, like there's just the growth.
Speaker 4:I mean seriously, like when we're sharing with other teams or other churches that are asking and we're telling them yeah, we like when you have 79 baptisms and you share that number with another church, I'm like wait what you talking about one Sunday?
Speaker 4:and we're like yeah, how man, listen, it's the Lord's hand, like that's favor, but it's Psalm 133. The Lord blesses, he commands his blessing over unity. I do kind of just want to pull back a little bit. So, pastor Mike, you know you talked about unanimous, which to me that was just such an avant-garde concept because you know, I didn't grow up working in the church but I grew up in ministry, but I'm working in for a church occupationally, and so that's, that is such a foreign concept outside of the church, outside of here. What is the? The 100 unanimous vote? Hey, listen, god has one will for leadership yeah, yeah, for leadership decisions.
Speaker 4:You know, I mean, I've worked for places where you know the plant manager like, hey, we're gonna do this. We're like, okay, I guess so. But how do you help your board discern whether or not, like this is God's like direction or strategy? Like how do you keep them first, starting with like, okay, do we sense this is the Lord, because there are some young leaders who will start with the what I'm gonna do this thing first, you know practically, or however you want to answer, how do you deserve, okay, god's direction first through prayer, like how do you sense that?
Speaker 3:So I heard Gerald Brooks say one time whenever, whenever the people of God vote on Jesus, jesus loses. Every time, right Like when they voted on who do you want, jesus or Barabbas? I mean anybody watching that objectively would go. Let him go, he didn't do anything. But when the people vote, when the people get a vote, jesus is going to lose. He's not and he's not even there to cast his vote. You know what I'm saying. So that's why a pastor has to hear from God. The leader has to hear from God and be a prophetic voice for the will of God and then advocate for it. But even Jesus, when he would say this is what God's will, it'll always happen, Because when people get involved, they can mess it up.
Speaker 3:I mean just read your Bible.
Speaker 3:It's all over the scripture right, and so I think I remember in college is where I first started wrestling with this idea. I was a new Christian and I had a roommate who was from a reformed tradition, which I didn't know what that was at the time, but we're both opera students and we're studying at the university of Tennessee and we were driving back to our apartment. We got an off campus apartment my sophomore year, his junior year, and I just looked over at him. I was wrestling with some theological differences that we have between his church and my church and I asked him this question. It was something to do with gifts of the Holy spirit.
Speaker 3:I come from a more Pentecostal tradition. I believe in that and he didn't. He came from what I now know as a cessationist yes viewpoint and I asked him I was like well, how is it that you and I are both christians and there's one bible and one jesus and yet we believe that god has a different view for you and a different view for me? I said that that didn't make sense. I was a baby christian, just figured, just thinking yeah out loud, and he gave me some, some answer. That was like well, you know God in his prevenient grace, blah, blah, blah, I'm like God just accepts the grace for you to believe this and you to believe that, and I was like that doesn't make any sense to me Like is God schizophrenic?
Speaker 3:That's what I asked him. Is God? Does he have a mental disorder? Is he bipolar, like? Why in the world and I'm not being dismissive here, I'm being very serious Do we serve a God that's united as father, son and spirit, or do we have pantheon of God's wills? And that's where I started saying I think denominationalism grieves the Holy Spirit, because God has one church.
Speaker 3:I mean, the scripture even says there's one church, one baptism one Lord, of all, one faith one baptism yeah, and so I've always, even as a baby Christian, wrestled with this idea of this splitting up of the and here's why denominations really start. You and I have a difference of opinion on a doctrine, so we're just going to part ways and I'm going to do it my way, you're going to do it your way. And then we babysit those things with statements like well, they're secondary issues, they're not going to keep you out of heaven, and I've said it too, like these people are going to hell because they don't believe in women in ministry or speaking in tongues or whatever, but they're going to ride on a different bus than us, you know, and we kind of make ways to soften that. But the truth is God has one will on every doctrine, everything under the earth, under the sun, and true with what we were talking about here a second ago. But God has one will, god has one desire and as a leader, if God this is his church, I don't. I just I'm a team member here. So my job as the leader is in this industry right is to seek the Lord and to seek the will of God for this place. But part of the checks and balances of that wisdom on a multitude of counsel and the governance structure that we have of elders and overseers and presbyteries presbyteros in the scripture is we have an ability to go.
Speaker 3:Hey, I'm sensing this from the Lord and I want us to pray about this together, like starting the men's ministry or building a campus, or this fall we're going to launch a new campaign, called one more, and that was before it came to our staff, even. It was with our lead team and I've shared it with our board and there's just a unanimous thing there. There's, there's agreement in the spirit. I just think it's. If it's the Lord's church, he has one desire and he's not gonna. He's not gonna let his will be known by majority votes. He's gonna let his will be known by, by leadership of the Holy spirit and confirmation in the body.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So the idea that the majority vote wins in the church? Okay, well, just do a little church history here. Majority voting has gotten the Church of Jesus Christ around the world into some very crazy theologies, very crazy behaviors. Okay, the Crusades were a majority vote. Let's go conquer nations with a sword and a cross on our shield. Should we do this, yes or no? The Lord didn't even get a vote in that meeting because he would have said absolutely not.
Speaker 3:I mean how many things you think about some of the crazy theology that's permeating the American church right now? And the more mainline is what I always think is where that they've been branded mainline yeah, Like they're the main. They're the weird ones, but they're the ones that are embracing really bizarre views on human sexuality and gender and marriage.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:All of that stuff and and it's, I think, when the Lord. When it goes to a vote, you're bureaucratic. This is a this. It goes to a vote, you're bureaucratic. This is a monarchy. The kingdom of God is a monarchy. Christ is king and our job is not to upend that monarchy.
Speaker 1:It is to discern the will of the king and then do it this author wrote the church is not a franchise to be built but a garden to be cultivated.
Speaker 3:It's not ours to brand, but God's to grow.
Speaker 4:That sounds like John Mark comer it does.
Speaker 3:That sounds very kind of monkish, you kind of yeah, mystic, mystic, but I love that I mean it is the garden motif is the most consistent motif in the kingdom of god starts in a garden jesus in a garden. The end will be a garden yes yeah, in my friend Manny Arango just wrote a book. Just wrote a book called something by Manny Arango and uh, I can't remember his book right off, all about.
Speaker 3:Manny yeah, no, but he's starting a church. I was actually talking about this to him two weeks ago. He started he's planting a church in Houston, called the garden, and I asked him. I was like where'd?
Speaker 4:you get the name for that.
Speaker 3:And he just said the same thing. He was like man. That's the motif of God with his people in a garden. He restored us in a garden and he's bringing us back to a garden.
Speaker 1:I love that man, the church is not our idea, it's God's idea. We're so temporary.
Speaker 4:We're so temporary. I mean Martin Luther, legacy guy 20 years in the past legacy guy 20 years in the pastor, I mean whatever it was so temporary all of us.
Speaker 3:I mean this. That's why I've been talking about during our forward campaign. We're building a church that will outlast us for decades. I'll be dead and gone in a grave somewhere and they'll still be doing growth track in that building.
Speaker 4:You know what I'm saying? That's very sobering. That's a sobering, humbling thought.
Speaker 3:We're all interim.
Speaker 4:Yeah, man, and that's one.
Speaker 3:The kingdom of God is advancing. The kingdom of God is advancing. The kingdom of God is advancing. That's, man. That's what I want to give my life to. The kingdom of God advancing. What's a kingdom? A king and everything under his rule. Yeah, that's all we care about here. Let's advance the kingdom where Christ is king, fully devoted followers of King Jesus. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was recently asked about leadership in the church and like what does that look like and what happens next? You know, when you become a pastor, then what Right? I'm like what are you really?
Speaker 4:asking.
Speaker 1:Because being a leader in the church means you're going to serve and you're putting people before yourself. You mentioned like an acronym once, Pastor, you said was it joy? I forgot what it was, I don't know Something. And then it was the J was something, I would say Jesus, Something over yourself. Others, and then yourself.
Speaker 5:Oh Jesus, Wait, I know what you're talking about.
Speaker 1:The last one is yourself.
Speaker 4:Jesus others, yourself, Others yourself.
Speaker 2:That's what it is.
Speaker 3:You said that I love the process of figuring that out just now.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you said it. What's?
Speaker 3:that acronym? Is that a jump rope?
Speaker 4:I don't know the Y was yourself.
Speaker 2:Jump over yourself. I think it's Jesus. Others, yourself, yeah.
Speaker 3:That's the order of our lives. It's Jesus first, others second, yourself third.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so everything we do in leadership is about. It's about other people. It's about joy. You know Jesus, others yourself, and so it's not. We're not trying to climb a ladder, like you referred to earlier. We're actually trying to see how do we serve people better. And so all the conversations about systems and structure and buildings. It's because there's more people to reach for the Lord and to develop and disciple people, you know, and so that's why we do what we do.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 3:Gerald Brooks says that when you become a leader, you've given up the right to think about yourself. Yeah man, what a humbling way to think. Yes. When you become a leader, you give up the right to think about yourself.
Speaker 3:And he says it all the time, every podcast I've ever heard him teach leadership roundtable. Well, what leadership does? Okay, going back to the climbing the ladder motif that idea that I'm rising in the ranks of leadership Well, if you think about a ladder, the higher you go on a ladder, the more dangerous you are, and it's the top of the ladder that's actually the most at risk to fall and to have serious injury. At the bottom of the ladder, you're like one step off, you're fine, that's right. And the higher you go on a ladder, you need people stabilizing you.
Speaker 2:Come on, yes, right and but.
Speaker 3:but the benefit of the top of the ladder is you can see further. One of the words of the New Testament for pastor is overseer. That's right, and the idea of leadership is I'm overseeing. So if you're whether you're the, the, a family, you're a coach on a baseball field, pastor of a church or the CEO of a business or a manager over a department, you're overseeing. And Pastor Chris Hodges at Highlands says if there's a better overseer, let them have it.
Speaker 3:Right, Like just because you've sat in the seat longer doesn't mean you're still the most gifted and anointed. If God's placed a better overseer, then hand it off. And ironically he's handed off oversight of Highlands to a spiritual son of his, Mark Pettis. That's right, and he says it just like that. He's like I'm not the guy for the next 20 years, and he's realized that I mean how, just amazingly humbling and secure that he was willing to hand it off.
Speaker 3:I mean, he's 60. This is where a lot of guys go. This is where I'm going to have the most fun and just flex everything I wanted to do and he goes no, that's not good for the church. What's best for the church is then hand it off to a son, a spiritual son.
Speaker 2:Yeah so anyway.
Speaker 3:Climbing the ladder is riskier. The air is thinner. Coming down takes longer. The Ladder is riskier. The air is thinner. Coming down takes longer. The fall is more catastrophic. The higher you grow, the harder the fall. Yeah, but the benefit is you can see farther.
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 3:And you can see more. And then, when you see from there, your vantage point changes, your responsibility changes. Yeah, that's right, and you can't overlook all of that and not do something about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah that's right, and you can't overlook all of that and not do something about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I want to kind of take the conversation somewhere else Just in the last few moments that we have together. Gianna, the reason you're here, I know you said earlier, like you know, they told me to come, but the reason you're here on this leadership talk is there's a lot about you over the last year a few years really that you've submitted yourself to and there's a lot of growth, both spiritually and even in maturity, in the way you think and lead, and it's it's been an honor to just do life with you in the sense of ministry here at LifePoint and and like Pastor Mike said, man, it's amazing to watch you lead. But but it doesn't just happen Like, there's things that form that in us and you know, and we could all probably share stories and maybe we will be able to at some point right now, but I'd love for you to just share with us what have some of those personal life experiences been conversations, relationships been in your own life that have shaped your leadership and are shaping who you're becoming as a leader?
Speaker 5:Yeah Well, thank you for all of that. Seriously, all glory to God, because he's the one that does all that. It was just me coming to my senses and letting him and really, yes, after, I mean just being here at LifePoint. I've gone to church here for seven, eight years. I've been on staff, five and a half now, and I've just been blessed to be surrounded with such great leaders and examples and just like you, pastor Mike and Pastor Willie and Pastor Elmer, all of you guys have played a role in just my development as a leader, but as a follower of Jesus, and really within the last year did the Lord? He was working on me.
Speaker 5:I just, again, wasn't letting Him and I got to a moment last May where I just had to repent from the mindsets that I had, from the thinking patterns, from the striving, like trying to make things happen, like you talk about the leadership ladder, like you feel like you want to be at a certain point. But the thing is you don't realize what it actually costs you to get there and I wasn't ready for what God does have for me and has for me now. But I just remember being in my closet and I just had to repent and say, god, I'm so sorry, like I don't want to worry about me anymore and what I want for myself. I just want what you want for me and I just want to be pleasing to you, whatever that looks like. If that's sitting in this seat as elementary director for the rest of my life, then that is what I will do. I just want to be pleasing to you, and that was when something unlocked in me was just the surrender that I finally had to the Lord, and I think that's where it starts with growing. You just have to surrender everything to him, because he's the only like. If you humble yourself before the Lord, he will lift you up in honor, and that's not why you do it. You do it because you want to be pleasing to him, but I think submitting yourself to him, you open yourself up to the fullness of what God has for you instead of just trying to do it your own way.
Speaker 5:And last year, again, I just had to humble myself before the Lord and there were different people in my life and again, things that I was doing that was not. It was not helping me. I was not. Being obedient to Christ is what I was doing, cause I knew I was like God, I know you have this for me. I know you have this for me. I know you've called me to be in leadership as a kid in this role that I'm in now, and I was like why aren't you giving it to me? And it was cause I wasn't ready and I had to say no to mainly some relationships in my life and people, leaders like Miss Sonia man, she's amazing. She spoke a word of knowledge to me that was like man, it was a smack in my face. It was like God has great plans for you but you are not willing to let go of the people that say they love you but they're really holding you back.
Speaker 5:You cannot step into the fullness that God has for you until you say no to them. And I was just like stunned but I had delayed obedience because I waited and I just sat on it. I knew what God wanted me to do and I just sat on it and sat on it. And then I had a dream, and I know it was from the Lord, and I knew exactly what he was calling me to do. And I said, even though I knew I sat again in my closet, I was like God what do you want me to do? And I remember the Lord telling me you know what I've asked you to do. And and so I did it. And I had to say no to some, some friendships and as much as that. I was grieving those relationships because they were close friends man.
Speaker 5:But it was right then that I had peace that just is unexplainable. It's that peace that surpasses understanding, because I knew what God had asked me to do and I knew that everything was going to be all right and I knew that whatever he had for me, whatever the timing was, it was, it was going to be in his timing and not even I don't even think it was. Two weeks later, pastor Elmer comes and talks I don't know if you remember this conversation that we had and and you asked me we'd been interviewing for the position that I'm in right now and out of nowhere, you were like do you think you could do this?
Speaker 3:We were interviewing. Out of house.
Speaker 5:Yes, out of house, yeah, he was like do you think that you could do that role? And I like froze and I was like.
Speaker 5:I mean, I don't think so. I mean I want to say yes, but I don't have the experience. You know, I have to grow and learn. And, pastor Elmer, you said to me, you said, well, I think that you can, I know that you can.
Speaker 5:And I just remembered thinking about that word of knowledge that I received of what I needed to do to be obedient to the Lord, to be able to access all that he had for me, all that I knew he had called me to do. But I still had to submit to him first, and then a, a few weeks later, and now I'm in this role and I don't know. I just I know that it was that moment and it started in the moment, in my closet, when I fully surrendered to him. And then God was just taking his time with me. He knew what I needed, when I needed it. He gave me that word of knowledge from a person that I trust and admire so much. He gave me a dream. He hadn't spoken to me in dreams in years. I know he spoke to me in a dream and he gave me his peace. That surpasses understanding. So I had the confidence behind what I did.
Speaker 5:And then, yeah, now I get to do what I do, and I know now, like in the seat that I'm in, like I'm so honored and really like I don't feel worthy to do what I do. It's a great honor, it's a great privilege, but I know that if I had gotten what I asked for back before I had fully submitted to him, I would have failed. I would have completely failed, and it's not just me, but I would have failed the people that I'm entrusted to care for and lead. And so now, whenever I'm in this, I wake up and I think about the people. Like that's who I think about. And whenever I make decisions, like I just always want to be, I have to check myself, sometimes like God, am I? Is this because this is what I want to do, because it's best for me, or is this best for the people that you've trusted me to care for? But it was a long process and it's all the people sitting here in front of me and so many more.
Speaker 1:But yeah, and I love it because you mentioned the role, but the role is the ability to lead others.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right.
Speaker 1:And you've done great. Thank you. Yeah, how about you guys, other forming experiences, life shaping Come?
Speaker 4:on.
Speaker 1:Leadership lessons.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So to your point, I think the ability to obey when it's hard. I think that is an underrated characteristic. Just the ability to obey like when it's hard, I think that is an underrated characteristic. I like just the ability to obey Like when it's hard.
Speaker 4:I had to have what I like to call a come to Jesus talk with a family member, and that that conversation was. I dreaded it the whole way up until I had to say something to this person, but the freedom and the peace that I experienced on the backside of that man, I would do it again 10 times over, like there's just a peace and a freedom that just comes with obeying. God immediately said when it comes to obedience, the devil is a master at helping you to reason yourself out of it. He is a master at it and he will give you legitimate like you had alluded to the earlier pastor, mike. He will give you legitimate logical reasons for not doing what God has commanded you to do, and I think we have to remember that too. To your point, jayana, when the Holy Spirit is speaking, those aren't suggestions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:And I just say, like, when the Spirit speaks to me that's one thing I've just learned when the Spirit speaks to me, those are not. This is God, the Spirit speaking to me. It's just as if it's the printed word, and so it's not like, hey, well, if you feel like doing this, I'd like you to know well, this is good for you to do, so, commanding you to do it, and there's a blessing on the backside of just obedience.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, I think that I don't mean to start with. I think I have experienced. A word from God settles a lot, and to receive a word from God whether it's through a word of knowledge or scripture or a prompting of the Holy Spirit. I just want to encourage anybody listening to this. If you don't believe that we serve a God who still speaks, then you need to investigate why you don't believe that.
Speaker 3:Because we clearly do in scripture, have no reason to believe that we don't have a Holy Spirit who convicts us of sin, leads us into all truth. Jesus said the word of God is alive and active, challenging us, sharpening us.
Speaker 2:I mean we serve a God who?
Speaker 3:speaks and I learned it early on in leadership. My first pastor in Knoxville would say don't move until you hear from God. That was I mean if I heard that statement, if I heard that statement once I heard it a thousand times.
Speaker 3:He had a few statements that he said all the time. He would say don't move until you hear a word from God and then do whatever he tells you. He would say you know, fast for your miracle, believe God for a miracle. He'd go Mike, what are you doing? He had a few statements I'd heard all the time, anyway, but the one that I'm telling you just stuck with me. And when I became pastor here he'd say did you hear a word from God to come there? I said I did. He said all right, then I support you. He said don't move till you. You a story about where I heard a word from God for somebody else on our team, and it's Jarae Merriweather. I had never met this guy and I'm on the platform preaching and I see this bald headed dude with a huge smile sitting on the fifth or sixth row on the right side of the middle section and he was just smiling and I got off the platform and I asked Pastor Bo? I said who is that guy?
Speaker 3:Bob had to do a big old smile. He goes I don't know who you're talking about and I found him and I pointed him out and he goes. Oh man, that's DeRay. He's a IT guy at a at a Hopkinsville schools, and I said I believe God wants him on our team and Bo's like what you know Bo he's always got that fast reaction Like what I said.
Speaker 3:I'm just telling you, man, I said, I think God wants him on our team and I began pursuing him in prayer and I would ask Bo questions about him. Tell me about him, and I'm, you know, I'm an investigator. There's been a few folks that that I've just really had a word for them about their participation with us and uh, he's one specifically that I just I felt really strongly about.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And the benefit of that has been obvious. You know, as we've all seen, that obedience play play out.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So I had to pursue him, and he had to say yes to what God was telling me for him, which was crazy invite to say hey, quit your job move to another city, Would you consider. And he had some church wounds, Like he had some not from the church but from people in a church that had bothered him or hurt him. I don't believe the church hurts people. I don't think Walmart hurts people either. You know people in Walmart can hurt you. Yeah, no-transcript, do with the call God on on your life for ministry.
Speaker 2:I'd ask questions like that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Just as we're eating man, I don't know. I just I think it was just the fear of the unknown and I just had a peace from God, Like he was supposed to be on our team and he didn't have that peace from God and I had to be patient with that and let let the Lord reveal that in him, because sometimes God will speak to you and not your wife, or God will speak to you about somebody and not to them. That's how I met Stephanie God. Yes, that's how I met Stephanie. God spoke to me that I was going to marry her. Before I saw her First time. I heard about Stephanie, God said this is going to be your wife. Well, then I saw her and I was very grateful and then I was like I don't even want to tell anybody. It sounds so crazy.
Speaker 3:But I'm telling you the truth. God told me I was going to marry Stephanie when I heard about her, which she didn't meet her for five weeks. I prayed for five weeks for her, every single day, before I met her.
Speaker 4:Wow.
Speaker 2:And introduced myself to her, but I was stalking her.
Speaker 3:This is before the internet. It's like it was real popping off. It was before MySpace or any of that. So I had to stalk her like with my feet and my eyeballs.
Speaker 5:You were actually stalking her, not stalking her.
Speaker 3:Like binoculars, that's creepy. But like I was always looking for her in the music building at UT and I was kind of like, hey, tell me, I'd ask her friends about her. And they're like, oh my gosh, Mike, that girl is perfect for you.
Speaker 5:Oh man, why did we never?
Speaker 3:say this before you know that kind of stuff. So then I met her after five weeks and I asked her out. She said no, she was busy, it was finals, whatever. And then we went out on one date and I told her on that date, that first date, I said I just want you to know like I'm not looking for casual girlfriend. I said I only want to date my wife and I'm praying about pursuing you in that way, cause I feel like the Lord wants me to pray for you that way. She just looked at me. She was like okay, I mean she didn't hardly know my last name at this point, but I'm just telling you like just because God speaks to you doesn't mean God speaks to everybody else it's part of that whole.
Speaker 3:I want my board in agreement, Like God spoke to me, and I need this team to confirm. So, anyway, God spoke to me about Jere, Pastor Jere, and you know now, if you were to ask him, I mean, he is as happy as can be and so fulfilled and flowing in his gifts.
Speaker 4:But watch this Our church is better because he's here, which is why hearing from God for others is so important.
Speaker 3:And you know he he's our student pastor. He and his wife are both on the team leading our student ministry and now he's our campus pastor at our Rossview campus. You know our broadcast location and that was probably the easiest transition we've made of a team member into a role I think I don't know. We've been around forever.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It was so seamless.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:When we told the church it was full applause.
Speaker 4:It was like nobody yeah what in the world.
Speaker 3:Why didn't you ask him?
Speaker 4:They're like, of course, yes.
Speaker 3:And I'm telling you as sure as I'm sitting here the first time I saw him in the seats, god said that guy needs to be on your team.
Speaker 2:But it starts with a word. It starts with a word. It starts with a word. That's where we're starting.
Speaker 3:So I got a ton of stories like that in my own life, but I love when God gives me a word for somebody else.
Speaker 1:It's risky to say it, but he gave you the word, and then you still had to be obedient.
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 1:And so I think that's the principle here. Obedience is key to all this. Well, what are we obeying? His word, his word.
Speaker 2:How does Jesus lead us?
Speaker 4:By his word, by teaching, by speaking.
Speaker 3:God. Even when Jesus calls the disciples, he says follow me.
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 3:By the way, he doesn't tell them where they're going.
Speaker 4:Never told them what they're going to do. Nope.
Speaker 3:Never told them how they're going to eat, where they're going to survive.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:He just said come with me follow me which is the greatest adventure. And if you don't know any way to obey God right now, listening to this, start with follow Jesus, learn his word, learn his heart, do what he says, be like him. If you'll start there, god can move you anywhere. There's that old statement. You know you can't move a parked car.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And some people, especially young folks in their twenties, they just, I just want to know what God's will is for my life.
Speaker 4:His will is to obey him, just to follow him.
Speaker 3:That's good. But they want to know, like where am I going to live, who am I going to marry, what job am?
Speaker 5:I going to have what career? That can all change. Yeah, I'm working in dancer, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And so who cares what you do? It's who you follow, yeah, and you want to know the will of God for your life? Follow Jesus.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:The call of God, for I believe the call of God for every human on the planet is to follow God. That's right. So what does that look like? And then, as you're going, that's actually the better translation of the Great Commission.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Which says go into all the world and make disciples. That's kind of the King James iteration, but it's actually as you're going throughout the world, make disciples, make disciples. So, as you're going, and whether you're a dancer, you're a kid's pastor, you're an opera singer or a pastor, like, make disciples.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I'm telling you if you'll commit to that, as I'm going, I'm just going to be about the commission of Jesus, Whether you're a college student, a high school kid, as you're going, make disciples. Point people to Jesus. That's your job. Point people to Jesus.
Speaker 3:You don't have to be a minister for that a professional pastor for that, as you're going make disciples. If the Lord can see you being faithful to that, then he might just pluck you out and say, okay, now, hey, you're going to leave that IT job and come work at my church now.
Speaker 4:That's good. And for some he's going to say I'm going to put you in that old IT job because I need you now to make disciples as you're going in that place, whether you're at Under Armour or with the army, or you're teaching at a high school.
Speaker 3:you're a stay-at-home mom as you're going to make disciples. That's the will of God for everybody's life that follows Jesus. And then, what your job is and how much money you make and where you live, who cares?
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I've had pastors say would you have a pastor? I'd pastor anywhere. I'm a pastor at Target. I went to Rudy's diner to meet with a pastor this morning and I walk in there like I'm the senior pastor of that whole place. What's up everybody? I mean I talked to guys at tables. I was like, hey, can we pray for you? I even asked like do you have a church in town? I'm looking. I said we got one for you. I just go everywhere like I'm on assignment. That's right, because, as you're going make disciples, Be, open to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so good, hey I want to say thank you, guys for being with us. Fun, and a lot of people get to hear this and be blessed by your wisdom and life experience. And I want to close this question and it's pointed to Pastor Mike You're a builder, you're a leader. How would you have done any of this if you were an opera singer? Hey, for real, like what would you have built?
Speaker 3:Yes, well, I would have built a career. I mean, the music industry is built on headshots, resumes, last performances and every performance. You do all these hours and hours and hours of rehearsal and preparation to end the show and take a bow, and one of the last things they do in an, in an opera, is give the order of the curtain call, and the goal of a singer is to get towards the end of the curtain call yeah, if you're the last, you're the principal actor gets the final curtain call.
Speaker 3:And you don't want to be in the first group of like the 12 choristers that come out and bow together. You know what I'm saying? That whole world is built on your brand.
Speaker 3:And my greatest struggle was and I want to make much of Jesus and I'm literally training to make much of me. And so when I graduated from college and I was looking to go to graduate school at some really prestigious schools and then my pastor asked me in Knoxville, would you come and be our youth pastor? There were 40 kids that didn't like me. I mean, they didn't know me. Half of them didn't like me. They're like who are you? Half of them quit within a month of coming to youth group. You talk about humbling, but, man, it was the most fulfilling ministry and all of a sudden, my total ego. I mean I'd literally sung in front of 110,000 at the university of Tennessee, on the 50 yard line by myself, wow, four times at my senior year. And these kids, they didn't care about none of that. They actually thought they were cooler than me and smarter than me and I was like you talk about humble pie. And I fell in love with the idea of serving people.
Speaker 4:I think, builders listen.
Speaker 3:The greatest builders don't live in the buildings they built. They build for others. I'm building a church. I'm not even going to preach. In One day, 20 years from now, some other kids, some middle schooler right now, is going to be the pastor of this church. I'm building a place. We're putting studios up. We're doing podcasts for other people to listen to. Builders build for others. I mean, you can't build an apartment complex and have a bedroom in every one of the apartments. So I love the fact that I'm not building my brand, that I'm building specifically for King Jesus. I don't know as an opera singer Now. It's a hobby. It's something I enjoy doing at the house with my wife, and she still plays piano. For me it's great, that's awesome.
Speaker 2:I love that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean the curtain call was my greatest, like my greatest struggle. And you know, you Christianize a curtain call, you go down for a bow and then you Point to Jesus. Nobody got saved.
Speaker 4:This was my struggle.
Speaker 3:No one got saved when I sang an opera. I did five operas my senior year and my recital, and I sang all of those football games. No one gave their life to Jesus. But the struggle is God gave me this talent. It's a gift, right.
Speaker 5:The music, the singing.
Speaker 2:So I trained my whole life for it. Right, I gave my whole life to it.
Speaker 3:And I felt like the Lord said I gave you that talent to meet your wife and to find the church, and this is what I want you to give your life to now, wow. So, all my gifts are given to him and he can take them whenever he wants to.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Hey, well do, especially when you, when you put some sauce on it. Hey look, man, I've been digging into some like 90s country lately. Oh boy, and I'll walk around the house singing like randy travis, I'm gonna love you. Okay, yeah, and you got that. That little brother, that is like the epitome of not opera singing, but, man, it's just, it's good, it's good music, it's so good oh man, you know that song I played stephanie the day we were driving down this back country road and she's going oh this is so, I'm going to get nauseous, please drive.
Speaker 3:And I said I got a song for you and I played it. I'm from the country. Yeah, she's like what is wrong with you, oh man.
Speaker 5:Redneck Woman was one of my favorites when.
Speaker 1:I was younger. I ain't going to sing it but. Man Well, I feel I felt lost when you're talking about the Office. I feel lost now. Hey, on that note, thank you guys for joining us. We'll see you guys next week. Love you guys.
Speaker 4:Peace out.
