The Worship and Leadership Podcast
Real conversations on worship, leadership, and living a faith-filled life beyond the platform. Hosted by leaders from LifePoint Church, this podcast is here to inspire, equip, and challenge you—whether you’re leading in ministry, in the marketplace, or just learning to lead yourself well.
The Worship and Leadership Podcast
When Calling and Career Collide
Have you ever stood at a crossroads, torn between a promising career opportunity and what you sensed was God's direction for your life? That tension between professional advancement and spiritual calling is exactly what we unpack in this enlightening conversation with Dr. Tim Hager and Pastor Michael Campbell.
Whether you're a young adult mapping out your future, a marketplace believer wondering how your job connects to God's purposes, or a ministry leader navigating transitions, this episode offers wisdom to help you walk confidently in God's will. Join us for a conversation that might just transform how you approach the next major decision in your journey.
Hey, what's up everyone and welcome to the Worship and Leadership Podcast. My name is Elmer Canas Jr and I'm excited that we get to be a part of this episode together and, like always, my friend, my buddy, willie C Simpson.
Speaker 2:Yo, what is going on? Excited to be here with you all today. It's going to be an awesome, power-packed episode. Yes, it is.
Speaker 1:I'm excited and in the studio we have one of my favorite people.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And you always get the privilege of introducing him.
Speaker 2:That's true, and he's one of my favorite people. He's probably one of the smartest people seriously that I know. Would you agree? Yeah? I agree, Like his mind, it's crazy, but seriously we're excited to have, like Einstein meets Yoda. Yeah, einstein and Yoda, yoda-stein, Yoda-stein, let's go, yoda-stein. Somebody get on chat GPT and put that together. Yoda-stein, we have the one and only often imitated, never duplicated, can't be replicated. Dr Tim Hager, our executive, pastor of finance and all things, vision casting leadership, we're so excited to have you, dr.
Speaker 3:Tim, it's great to be here, we're glad you're, here. Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you're in the room with us, right, but we also have another guest. Yes, that is joining us via phone.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And so it's exciting that technology allows us to be able to do this. He couldn't be here in the room, but he's with us from Cookville, Tennessee Come on the one and only never duplicated.
Speaker 2:They tried to replicate it and they threw that one away. That didn't work. Mr Pastor Michael Campbell, our legacy pastor.
Speaker 1:Come on, we're glad to have you, pastor Mike how are you man?
Speaker 4:you guys are something else. I'm listening to all this and I'm thinking who are they talking about?
Speaker 1:We're talking about you, PMC.
Speaker 2:Pastor Mike, we're so glad you were able to join us for real. I'm telling you I'm excited about today's episode, Yep so today's episode is going to be good. Episode four calling versus career discerning God's voice, and many of you that are listening to our podcast. First of all, we're grateful every week that you tune in and that you share our podcast. You know, elmer, I've gotten lots of great feedback and people say it really does bless them and help them.
Speaker 2:But many of you are in a season of decision. Again, this is the Worship and Leadership podcast, and so a lot of you are in leadership positions or you're entering into a season of leadership. And listen, whether you're a young adult trying to figure this out, or you're a leader that's balancing ministry and career moves I mean it's sort of like a ministry tightrope or you're someone that's in the marketplace and you're asking how your job connects to calling. Listen, I want you to lean in because this conversation it's for you. So lean in, take good notes, re-listen to this share. We're going to be talking about discerning God's voice when calling and career collide, and we're going to help hopefully help you navigate how to walk faithfully, no matter where the Lord leads you. We're going to hopefully give you some guiding principles for that, amen.
Speaker 1:And so we're glad you guys are here and we'll just go ahead and we're going to just jump right in and we want to start with the leading question. You go ahead and we're going to just jump right in and we want to start with the leading question. Yeah, you know what is the difference between calling and assignment, and we can reference Scripture. But, dr Tim, we want you to kick it off.
Speaker 3:What is the difference between calling and assignment? I would probably go back to the way Paul actually uses the term calling in Scripture, particularly in two passages one over in Ephesians 4, the other run in Romans 11, 29. He uses calling in the term of that call to salvation, the call to follow him, the call to make Jesus Lord Savior, leader, not primary leader as in you got a bunch of other leaders, but the Lord of your life. And so when calling's about participating in the gifts or graces of God, which are all those things that are about his favor and blessing, that is offered and we're invited to join into. So that's typically how I'll try to reframe my own thinking on this topic. Between an assignment and calling is, first of all, it's about his lordship. The next is what do I need to be doing in life in light of that?
Speaker 2:That's so good. Yeah, that's very helpful. So there's sort of a universality you're attaching to calling that feels like it's really for everyone. Everyone is invited to call or to accept the call to follow Christ.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:But the outworking of the acceptance of that invitation will play out differently. Yeah, you know, depending on your skills or you know your, whatever that is. So, pastor Mike, let me ask you, when you think of you know, calling and assignment, how has the Lord been able to kind of reveal to you, you know, the difference between the two, calling and assignment, because it's easy for people to confuse and conflate the two. So, pastor Mike, how has the Lord revealed to you the difference between calling and assignment?
Speaker 1:And real quick, when Pastor Mike Campbell's talking, jacob, if you don't mind, just put his lower third up and that way it's not weird on YouTube. It's kind of feels like CNN. So we're going to put up your lower third and I just want you to know you're not in the room. But your lower third actually says Mike Campbell. It says staff pastor layover revivalist. Layover, revivalist.
Speaker 4:Layover revivalist Layover.
Speaker 1:Because you travel so much. All the layovers, like all the flights, and that's a good picture. I got a good picture, that's a good one. It's a great picture, all right, hey.
Speaker 4:You sponged out the numbers underneath.
Speaker 1:Oh man.
Speaker 3:I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:You guys are something else, I All right. Hey, it's punched out the numbers.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm telling you man. The more that I've worked with and the more I've served with, the more I just love it.
Speaker 1:Oh, yes, that's it.
Speaker 2:I'm telling you man.
Speaker 4:I'm sorry, Pastor Mike, it's all you. Well, you know my assignment changed but my calling has not changed. I've been called to the kingdom of God. In fact I like the scripture that says we're called to the kingdom for such a time as this. But the job that I'm doing has changed.
Speaker 4:For 29 years I was in the pastoral ministry and then God said that season was over, and I think that's the problem people have. You know, Paul said make your calling and election sure. So I knew that God had called me into this ministry. But my assignment changes according to what God's needs are, and I think sometimes people confuse that Because we're used to doing like a career, where you get in something and you stay all your life. You know, like a doctor, he's a doctor all his life until he decides to retire. But in our calling God's the one that sets pastors, apostles, prophets, evangelist, teachers. He sets these people into place according to his will and I think this is where we're flexible, because our assignment can change but the call of God is still hanging with us, so that we can accomplish what God needs.
Speaker 1:That's good. Yeah, I love that. Yesterday we had our staff offsite and Pastor Mike Burnett, our lead pastor. He referred to calling an assignment and he said that we're all called to Jesus, but the assignments may vary, and so being called to Jesus is called to all things, jesus, which includes loving God, loving people, you know being bearing good fruit, and so, yeah, I agree, pastor Mike, that our assignment can look so different every season of our lives. You know one city, you know your assignment can look like one thing, and then you move to another place and it looks completely different and just like parenting. Parenting is one of those things that you're called to your children and your assignment changes. How you raise them, how you interact with them, changes, and so no, I'm curious, dr Tim, why do you feel like people struggle?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Pastor Mike brought up a great point. Like we tend to view people through like the lens of what they do you know the occupational lens. But, as Christians, why do you feel like we struggle when the Lord shifts? You know our assignment in relation to our calling. Like you know the calling doesn't change but our assignments may. And why do you feel like people wrestle, you know with that? Why do you think that they, you know, forget? Hey, I still get to live on mission which is leading people to be devoted followers of Jesus Christ. Why do you think that is?
Speaker 3:leading people to be devoted followers of Jesus Christ. Why do you think that is? I think there's probably quite a few different reasons in there, but part of it ends up being a magnification of assignment, tasking. Opportunities come up there and all of a sudden almost forgetting the primary, my walk with the Lord, or say I haven't been necessarily in a place where I've got the rhythms of intimacy with Christ and God's part of my regular consultation throughout the day and those sorts of things. So an opportunity comes up and rather than being just a little bit, I mean that excitement comes, that wave of excitement blows through, say oh, and then I'm running off on a whole list of other things on what the consideration is that I can get.
Speaker 3:Either I can get stressed or I can start working down a path of which I can just step back just a little bit and say, boy, I'm really honored that. You know this has come up, it's been an ask of me to consider, or I've seen something. But if I'm walking with the Lord in some of these things I may want to say, be more objective and start that process of praying and just as even Pastor Mike had mentioned my calling to Christ and His kingdom. It might play out at the hospital, it might play out at the corporate setting or down as a barista, or, you know, I'm working in some location or in a lot of our cases here we're working in a local church. I start going down the questions of Lord. Is this consistent with what I know you already had given to me as last orders that? I know at this point I've made a lot of changes in my career as I've gone forward, but I can put my head down at night knowing that I really haven't missed anything.
Speaker 3:I've been able to have that flexibility and it's like, is this consistent with his as I'm serving him, that he has had me, had in my hands on these things, that my gifts, or where my heart has been, and the way that he has brought fruit in my life? Are those things starting to line up? And what's it going to mean for me if I say yes to this, particularly if I'm not having a real sense? Sometimes I use traffic lights there's a real green one to go ahead and keep on moving down the path of exploration, or even a yes, or am I starting to feel like I need to do some more praying and just some more time with the Lord? It's kind of checking on those things, but those rhythms of seeking his face and trying to do those explorations are already there.
Speaker 3:Not everyone is in that boat. Earlier in life, I think some of our students are coming up trying to make those decisions about is it trade school or is it college? Or what do I do? Do I hang out with the family business, do I go ahead and sign up for the military? Do I start moving around the world or what do I do?
Speaker 3:Sometimes it's easier to be led if our feet are just moving a bit than if we're just sitting still and then okay, now lead me, lord. It's easier for me if I'm kind of moving a little bit and then I'm feeling like, well, yeah, I really don't need to be going over there. So I'm going to go over here and kind of like Paul with his journey in there, we kind of get some of those blocks and pretty soon we're saying, okay, now I'm right on target with where I needed to be, but also he was walking with the Lord. So a number of things start coming into play with the wrestling of calling versus. You know, is this the right assignment or what I need to do?
Speaker 2:That's so good. It's so good. Pastor Mike, I want to kind of I want to pull you in on this question here. Exodus, chapter three. You see God give the call to Moses to go back into Egypt. You know, god has heard the cries of Israel. They're in bodies, they're in slavery in Egypt and God's going to send Moses as this deliverer. And he tells Moses hey, listen, this is the message you're going to give Pharaoh, let my people go. And so chapters 3 and 4, pastor Mike, are this fascinating interchange between Moses and the Lord, where, I mean, he's resisting God's call almost at every turn. So, pastor Mike, I want to ask you, as believers, when we resist the call of God on our lives, what's at stake? What's at stake when we resist the call of God?
Speaker 4:what's at stake? What's at stake when we resist the call of God? Well, you know that's the debatable question, but I think the biggest thing that is, we won't have the interaction with God that our life needs. Think about what would have happened if Moses had said no, right, god would have found somebody else, but then Moses will not have the interaction with God and the impact and his life was designed to. I mean, his family knew there was something about him when he was born, cause I said, you know this, this is a proper child. So they saw something on his life and I remember as a kid I dreamed about being in the ministry or as a priest, because that's all I knew. And then that faded out over time because some things just didn't go in the right direction. But it revived when I got born again.
Speaker 4:And so I think the thing that's at stake is that God has designed us uniquely to be able to do certain things and we need to stand in that place to fulfill it. But in order to do that, we have to have trust and reliance on the Lord, and I think that when you say no to God, you're really saying no to trust and reliance and yes to self and self does not bring us in a place for the blessing of the Lord and I don't know. It's a question that people have asked. I get asked a lot by people that are LLA students and I tell them, I encourage them to make a relationship with the Lord so that you can know what's at stake and make a better decision to follow the voice of God.
Speaker 1:That's good. That's good when you think about Moses and how God called him and as he was being given his assignment to go to Egypt and get the people of Israel out. How many excuses did Moses come up with?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And he made it about himself just said it's easy for us to to not to go back to what am I capable of, what am I able to do, versus the fact that, hey, if god's calling you to do something, maybe he's going to supply everything you need. Right, you know, he doesn't just say build a house, he provides everything you know, everything you need. Like, have you seen?
Speaker 1:well, you know that yeah, go ahead, sorry about that. Yeah, go ahead, pass mike. No, you know you go. Well, go ahead, sorry about that. Yeah, go ahead, pastor Mike. No, you know you go first.
Speaker 4:Well, the scripture says that except the Lord builds a house, right, but how can you let him build something that you're not in communication with him on? And this is why following God and the voice of his spirit are the key to fulfilling our calling in itself.
Speaker 2:Definitely yeah, that's good.
Speaker 3:You know it's interesting in chapter 4, verse 10, there with that whole experience with the Lord and Moses, when God answers every single one of those four considerations and finally I feel like it kind of got to the bottom line. He just really, for fear or other, did not want to do it and he just goes. My Lord, could you please just get somebody else?
Speaker 3:And all that. Pastor Mike Burnett brought up a good point and I went back and looked, and, and Moses actually used the word Adonai ratherett brought up a good point and I went back and looked and Moses actually used the word Adonai rather than Jehovah at that point. Which Adonai? For in the Jewish faith. You just touch that so very lightly. You actually use Jehovah as much, because that is the Lord, that is God, and he used Adonai.
Speaker 3:He said, my Lord, please just get somebody else. It's just the ultimate moving over into God's name but then also just kind of brushing him off. The same way. And that's the only time God got angry. It's in the scripture. He got angry. He said I will, I will, I'll get somebody.
Speaker 1:You know, I was like Lord.
Speaker 3:Please don't talk to me in that tone, you know, but it is, it is. It does bring up what Pastor Mike's talking about the separation or the change of his own life by just not acknowledging true lordship, or and what God's asking him to do to do, even though I don't know. We did in our sermon series the Unforgotten Virtues. We talked about humility, but part of that is just the recognition. Whatever you ask me to do, I have my little bit to offer, but it's still not enough for your grand plan and who you are and all. But he's the one asking, so I trust that he's going to take care of all the rest of it and that is a growing process to get to that place in faith.
Speaker 2:Yes, that's so good, that's so good. I want to ask the both of you gentlemen here can you share a time when you had to choose, or you felt like you had to choose between calling and career? You know the universal call, and then we have this temporal assignment. So, dr Tev, I'll throw it to you, and then, pastor Mike, I'd like you to chime in Just a story of when you had to choose between the two.
Speaker 3:I mean just a story of when you had to choose between the two. I actually did. It's been a number of years back now, but I've tried to balance out what kind of talents, abilities, my interest, where I'm seeing fruit in my life, go. And I had actually at one point I had.
Speaker 3:There was an individual in our church that said, hey, with the way your ministry is being expressed here and all that, it would really, if you had any thought about maybe doing this on the business side and you know the pressures of ministries and whatnot business people wanted to come over and be, oh, it'd just be something working in church, you know, and just that'd be your career.
Speaker 3:And then for me, sometimes I looked at that, well, if you know I was on the business side, then I'd be the greatest volunteer or dream teamer you know, ever you know. So I had actually tested the market once on that and this particular company. I did a lot of research on what this individual said I think you may just want to take a look at this and it's something that very much was of interest to me. And so at that time that company was receiving a million resumes a year plus, and they'd already, early on, had been using some of the technology to do the sorting of resumes and whatnot, and I put my resume in and I was in the first poll. So one in a million.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:You know I got polled and I told the Lord.
Speaker 3:I said I want to walk this, I'd like to walk this out, please, and just confirm what you're wanting to do in my life right now, because some of my gifts they would not necessarily be traditional for local church work, but in large church they fit really well and so, short of it is, they ended up going through the process and it actually came down for this particular position at this international headquarters to me and one other person I was the outsider and the other one was the insider and my friend that had given me the tip on this said they met on that decision for 90 minutes and they finally sorted out and they picked the other person.
Speaker 3:I took that as a confirmation that God had other things and that he still was not done with me. And because I had said in prayer, I said, lord, if all that I have here, my gifts and my background and all these sorts of things, if you want me to give all that to your church, I will do that. And he allowed me to go through that and it was like a confirmation and I haven't ever gone back since, but it was something I did.
Speaker 2:Praise God, pastor Mike Campbell, what about you? A moment, a fork in the road, moment for you.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I graduated Ole Miss and I was working in a bank and had become very successful. And Jada and I went to camp meeting one year and we felt the call of God. We knew we had a call to go in the ministry, but it became real evident in that camp meeting. So Jada, she's ready to go in the ministry, but it became real evident in that camp meeting. So, jada, she's ready to go Me, I'm trying to get things in order and that's the way we work. She'll just jump and go and I'm ready to. First, we got to get out of that. We got to do this.
Speaker 4:Anyway, when I finally announced to the bank I was leaving, they offered me a major increase and some opportunity to go get an MBA. And I said no. So they offered me more money and he said you just take the weekend to think about it. And so I went home and Jada and I prayed, and on the Monday morning I went back to the bank. He was waiting on me, the president and he said come to my office. And so we sat down and he said what's your decision? And I said you know, I'm going to go to Bible school and I'm going to follow the Lord, I believe that's what I'm supposed to do now. And he said this was the confirming statement. He said are you telling me that I cannot compete with God? And when that came out of his mouth I knew then I had made the right choice.
Speaker 4:And 30 days later I left the bank and went to Bible school. And the funny part about it was he had told the bank in Oklahoma that I was going to be there and they called me about a job and I thanked them for their kindness. I said I can't do it. If I go in there I'll never come out. I'm going to follow God. And so that was the decision Jaden and I made. The call of God was greater than that particular assignment with the bank.
Speaker 2:Man. Thank you both so much for your transparency on that. I will say a I don't want to say peculiar. I'll say this a remarkable commonality that is evident between what Dr Tim and Pastor Mike has shared, elmer, is that there is this closeness and intimacy in regards to seeking the Lord. So, that's number one and number two. Neither of you were impulsive. There wasn't this sort of impetuousness that comes along with these sorts of decisions.
Speaker 2:You know that makes sense, that's just something that I've noticed between both of them in that regard, and I'm sure it's important.
Speaker 1:Like you think, when you are called into something, it's going to shift your life. It's going to change everything, not just your environment, but it's going to change your, your family's dynamic. It's going to change how you raise your children. You know you've got to consider all these different things and and so it's easier when you're younger.
Speaker 1:I remember, I remember leaving home when I was 20 and you know I was going to school, you know I was in college at the time Cal State, northridge and and then I had an opportunity to leave LA to go to Dallas, to go serve in a ministry role with a friend of ours that was doing ministry. He had just taken over a church and it was so much easier as a 20 year old that wasn't attached to anything else to be able to go and just kind of start something new, something different and and I know scripture talks about, you know, just giving your everything in your youth. A lot of that is because you're able to do so much more in the sense of your decisions aren't attached to other humans, other people. But as you get older, when you get married, when you start having children, you know if you're taking care of family members, now every decision you make does impact other people. Yes, so you think about moses. He was like me.
Speaker 1:All those people like that's, that's a big deal, like yeah, you know what about my sheep you know there's a lot that goes into into obeying god, but again, ultimately the, the obedience piece I think we talk about that a lot on this podcast, you know it's. It's not about the, the preference. It's not about the preference. It's not about how we want to do things. It's about being obedient to the voice of God.
Speaker 2:Right, and so the both of you Go ahead. Go ahead, pastor, go ahead.
Speaker 4:I want to add something, because Elmer has made an excellent point. You know, most of us look at advancement, as you know, a significant thing. We're going to be leading more people, we're going to get paid more, and we've associated God with those kind of things. But if you look at David, he was taking care of a few sheep for his dad, yet God anointed him king, right. And Moses was the same way. He was taking care of Jethro's sheep, yeah, and yet God picked him to deliver a nation. So it's not about getting advanced to that next spot so that you can be recognized and then god's going to use you for something big. If you'll take care of doing the small things, then god can put you in something major come on, come on.
Speaker 1:That's a word right there and to your point, pastor mike, a lot of times it's not even going to be your dreams, right? It's a lot of times it's not even going to be your dreams, right, it's not even going to be the things that you're pursuing yourself. Pastor Jadon, george, my pastor, he would always tell us on team or he actually told me specifically when I left Dallas to move to Nashville. He said when you pour yourself into other people's dreams, god will send people to pour themselves into your dreams. He's like so, serve other people's dreams, god will send people to pour them, pour themselves into your dreams. He's like so, serve other people and then cause. He knew I was young and you know at the time like it was writing music, wanting to do a lot of things and and he would see side of my eyes Like I wanted to experience, you know, success in songwriting within the church and all these things. I was already involved in different circles, but he saw the call of God in my life for pastoring and loving people within the church, not just as an artist. And so he's like hey, just keep pouring yourself into other people's dreams, keep pouring yourself into the local church, and as you do that, then others will pour themselves into your dreams.
Speaker 1:And again, going back to our dreams, the dreams that God has for us aren't always the dreams that we have for ourselves, and so, again, our heart is deceitful. And so, as we align ourselves with God's desires for us, then we start seeing God's plans and purposes and God's dreams for our lives. And so I never imagined doing what I'm doing now. I thought I'd be singing to people in church forever and not loving them and hating them. It's easier to just sing from a platform and just lead worship and say I'm loving them from there.
Speaker 1:It's a whole nother thing to go to the hospital and be praying for people that are suffering and struggling, and I never thought I'd be doing that, but that's investing into them. And then, as you do that, god just shows you like hey, these are the plans, and they become clearer and clearer, you know, and so I love that. You brought that up. I know I said it on accident, but yeah, moses was tending to somebody else's sheep man, that's good. And david was tending to his father's sheep yep, that's it simple, humble tasks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's what the lord.
Speaker 4:Hey, you know, guys, you find this in luke 16, beginning of verse 10. It says he who is faithful in what is least is faithful also in much. Yep, they haven't had much, but they looked over what was the least and then he said, uh, if you've not been faithful and unrighteous man, and who will commit you the true riches? And if you have not been faithful in what is another man's, yeah, who will give you your own? That's good, wow.
Speaker 4:So that that principle in calling, you know the world has this thing about offering everybody. You got to be at the top, you've got to be the CEO. But I see guys like Pastor Tim fulfilling a tremendous call on God and adding such value as he does and pours himself into what literally is another man's ministry Pastor Mike Burnett's ministry but Pastor Tim is making such a significant contribution and when I see these things, it's easy for me to designate and see the call and the commitment that they have or that Tim has to the call, and so I don't know, it just fires me up when you guys talk about this. That's good, come on.
Speaker 3:So part of what we're talking about with calling again back to our salvation and the Lordship of Christ, when that becomes the number one thing, we have to use wisdom with these other metrics. When opportunities come through Right. Yes, that it may be promotion, it may be that time and it might be God. On the other hand, it may be a distraction or what we like sometimes use around here sideways energy.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:To God's general path of growing more like Christ. Of that there was a value decision that I had to make at one point, one of our transitions that we had in ministry. We have four children. Our oldest was in his junior senior year of high school and I ended up taking a sabbatical to finish out my doctoral degree and as we were finishing that up, god had helped our family with this transition. They were in, we had a good church, we had good community around us. There were just a number of things. And he was wrapping up his junior year and then he just started his—it was before, I think, he started his senior year.
Speaker 3:I got a phone call of with a position. Eventually I went to it, but I got this phone call to go ahead and come on in and it was a similar position to what I'm in here now, outside the Washington DC area. I mean, there was so much about that whole context and setting that was like that would be phenomenal. But as I just put it into low gear, I had over an hour conversation the first time with this pastor and then Lynn and I were praying about it. The more I was spending time before the Lord and reflecting, I thought it would not be good to uproot my son right now in his senior year, when so much is going well. Let's get him launched on out.
Speaker 3:And I called up the senior pastor and I said I love what we've talked about in tongues. I need to hold here, and this was in October. We just need to hold. I need to get my son on out because he'll go on to college and we've had quite a bit of change, but I'm just going to settle in here and get this done. And he said no problem. And I remember telling him, if you need to go ahead and get somebody, that I totally understand and in my heart I just completely released that thing. I found out later. He went to his board and he said I found the guy that needs to be here. He can't come just right now, but we've got to wait a few months.
Speaker 3:He told the board he'd already found his guy.
Speaker 1:I didn't even know this.
Speaker 3:My son finished the year. He had a phenomenal year there. He got full ride scholarships on to university, he met the girl that has become our, our treasured daughter-in-law, and he's got a family and they have done fantastic. All that happened within that time that I said I'm going to wait on this, I'm just going to do this thing first. And we ended up going to Washington DC and I had phenomenal ministry there and stuff. So I think and it was hard because I was out still helping there were some things that helped that I was.
Speaker 3:The drought was really hammering Colorado at that time and there were some times I'd help out at the ranch and it was just me and doing fence posts and some fixing out there. And I said, lord, here I'm finished my doctorate and here, if this is all you've got for me.
Speaker 3:and I resolved this, the lordship issue I said, if this is what you want me to do and stay here, I will do it. I will do it. And I'm saying this with tears going down, you know, and mud on my face being out there in the dust and everything. But I said, when I get to heaven I will have some questions why did you have me do all this and invest this way and do all this and what I've got here? And you want me to stay? I won't understand that, but I'll do whatever you want me to do. That was the critical thing that needed to happen. And I think, as we're going forward with calling, I'm first of all called to kingdom. And now what's my assignment? Whether it's in, out or whatever else that lordship issue at different times that comes back around that we all have to kind of get to the burning bush again and then ultimately say yes, and hopefully we don't put all conditions on it like Moses did and get God mad at us but we get back through there and stay on assignment.
Speaker 2:Right, oh, that's so good, as you and Pastor Mike were sharing again. Just, you know both of you. It was obvious that you're men of prayer, and so I'm thinking of you know, willie, when he first graduated college. I mean I was a Christ follower for sure, wasn't in full-time ministry, but I was young and you know, green in my prayer life. So, pastor Tim, and then Pastor Mike, I'd love for you to give some guidance to somebody who's tuning in on how they can discern God's voice.
Speaker 2:Here's what I'm asking, because what I am really struck by is your ability to remain measured in your daily walk, like you guys weren't impetuous, you weren't compulsive, you know it was. There is this, there is this even keel, pace, temperance, that's the word self-control that the both of you were able to maintain. I mean, pastor Mike, again you're on the precipice. I mean you got two offers, the second one's increased, and then, on top of that, a third challenge Are you going to decide between me and the Lord? And then again, dr Tim, I mean, there it is. It's like this is what I've trained for, this is what I've been built for. But the both of you start with you, dr Tim, then you, pastor Mike, give some guidance, some guiding principles on discerning God's voice. So, to use your vernacular, I can use this stoplight. It's red, it's caution or it's green.
Speaker 3:So this is something everyone can walk in, because I'm just thinking of what really had stood out to me at one point.
Speaker 3:There was a church I followed up in the Chicago area as they just grew phenomenally many people came to Saving Knowledge of Christ and they talked about some of the people that were up in there, the life change that was happening to individuals. They would make career decisions, promotions would be offered and those things and part of their discernment process with the Lord was the whole orb about what was God's will, what would be the impact of this or that, and they sought the Lord through it and some decided to take passes on promotions because of their spiritual community and the faith of that community in Christ and what that meant to them, and so they would make some decisions. So I think it comes back for me back to Acts, the 13th chapter, where at a real pivotal time there in the church they probably didn't realize exactly how pivotal it was. But in Acts 13, it says, while they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, and the way that that's written in there is really about.
Speaker 3:This was part of their regular engagement. It wasn't they were doing ministry to other people, it was. They were worshiping the Lord and they were fasting. They were in that zone. It was them, and God Jesus would remind us saying listen, my sheep will hear my voice and another they're not going to follow. And so it's having that regular time of intimacy, of spiritual connection with God, both quietly, both with audible, with singing, but it's that regular engagement and in his word that we end up hearing his voice come off of the page. Where we end up, a scripture passage comes off of the page or while we're worshiping, all of a sudden it's either images or there's a sense of a word, or something comes to us, because God knows exactly how to get our attention and communicate with us and how that works.
Speaker 3:But we get familiar not accustomed or that it gets. But we understand. When God's near, I mean he's around all the time, Right. But when he's near to us and close in our heart, it's like on. Emmaus wrote. It said, our hearts were strangely warmed within us. We're talking with this man. It was Jesus, Right, Our hearts were strangely warm. We were picking up on something. The radar was going off.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:We get in that place with him. So, as that was going on while we were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said so. They heard direction from the Holy Spirit and there's no specificity here about the modality or the channel Was it a prophetic word, or did they all of a sudden?
Speaker 3:they said you know what we're all feeling, drawn to the two guys over here, and I think the God's got a mission, and say, yeah, I feel the same thing. I don't know what that looked like. I said the Holy Spirit then spoke. So it's that portion of it, of that regular communing, that ends up positioning us for hearing and getting the guidance and being familiar with the surge of excitement for opportunity and some things that come along quickly and I can make decisions quickly. But for many things it's just that sounds so neat. I just want to sleep on it one night and I'm just going to and I'll be praying or I'll immediately take it to some trusted brothers or colleagues or something like that, and then I move, and so that's just been my pattern for a lot of years. Haven't always gotten exactly right.
Speaker 3:But, you know what? God's been big enough that he knows how to shut doors for me and gets me all hemmed in, so I only got one little narrow path to walk. So, he'll do that too. He loves me that much.
Speaker 2:Amen, that's so good. You know, pastor Mike Campbell, he has said and he and I we were talking earlier this week and I was just kind of sharing with him just a moment of revelation from a challenge he had given us at a previous meeting in regards to just, you know, learning how to ask the right questions. And here's what's so amazing, guys, I'm'm not gonna say anything life-changing or like groundbreaking. It may be life-changing for you, but nothing groundbreaking. His counsel to me is almost verbatim what you just said in the first part of your answer, dr tim and it was this there is a sustained, deliberate hear me on this continual relationship with the lord.
Speaker 1:Yeah it doesn't change.
Speaker 2:It doesn't change. What I mean was that there is this element of an abiding nature with God and he talked about. That's why he was able to hear from God. He shared with me a powerful anecdote when he was pastoring in Cookville, when he was lead pastor in Cookville, about how the Lord had given him discernment regarding a team member, a staff member, who was living in sin. And he called it out to this man and the man denied it. And years later the man confirmed.
Speaker 2:He confessed in humility to Pastor Mike through that, and he asked how did you know? And he said I spent time in prayer. That's what it was. It wasn't anything avant-garde, it wasn't anything innovative, it was nothing creative. And I think the reason why that is the case is because if I logicize my way into faith, then I have the right to be boastful, right, if I know all of the steps, one through 100, in regards to a life of faith, then I have every right to boast. But if I say, lord, I don't know where you're taking me, but I know you, and that's enough, man, that is utmost humility, right, like you can't boast even a modicum of amount in yourself. And so I just want to pause and just say this to those that are that are tuning in you do yourself a disservice when you attempt, as a believer, when you attempt to go through life day by day apart from active, deliberate communion with the Lord, apart from active, deliberate communion with the Lord, and then place a demand on him to answer you in your timing, when you have to make a decision. You do yourself a disservice. Listen to me You're going to be frustrated, you're going to be irritated and you're going to be angry. You're going to be angry at others and you're going to be angry at the Lord. John, chapter 15, I just read it. This morning.
Speaker 2:I go through this devotional called New Morning Mercies by Paul David Tripp and the scripture, the focus scripture was John 15, one through eight, and he just says over and over again I'm the vine, you're the branches. Abide in me, abide in my love. Apart from me, you can do nothing. If you want to bear much fruit and part of that fruit can be discernment, okay, I can make a decision that is abiding. That is crock pot, that is not air fryer, that is not microwave, and so and I'm saying this because there are a lot of you that are young leaders walking it and you just think it's this sort of light switch. I can just continue to walk, walk in the dark, and then the Lord will turn the light on for me, no, his desire that you walk in light all the time. So now I can see. Oh, lord, I can see near and far. David says your word is a lamp unto my feet and a light for my path. I need to know how I need to walk today but, lord, I just really believe if I stay in your word and I stay connected to you in prayer and in worship, I will also see the path, like you were saying, dr Tim. I mean, I just hear these mile markers.
Speaker 2:That was such a powerful story, dr Tim. It was all along the way. You're like, okay, good lord, here it is, here it is. You know, when you had talked about that decision and they said 90 minutes, hey, we're going to go with someone else, I mean, lord, that's confirmation. But you weren't surprised. It was lord, that was my request down this path. I believe you're going to give me mile marker discernment. I'm going to know I'm heading on I-24 towards Nashville. How do I know that I'm heading to Nashville? Because the mile markers tell me, I'm not surprised when I get to that destination. Again, I want to thank you for sharing that. I thank Pastor Mike. I don't know if he's here with us, he's on. Okay, pastor Mike Campbell. Again, thank you for sharing your wisdom too.
Speaker 4:I don't know if there's anything you want to jump in on. Well, I just want to say that what Tim was saying about Acts 13 is so crucial because it says, as they ministered to the Lord and fasted, it sets the stage for God to move, for him to speak. And when we minister to him, we're not focused on my name is Jimmy, jimmy, jimmy, gimme, gimme, gimme. We're focused on God. We're telling him how great he is, we're ministering to how wonderful his faithfulness is, and things of that nature, and that's when God can say hey, I want you to do this.
Speaker 4:In the case of Acts 13, he said separate Saul and Barnabas for the work whereunto I have called Again. We're back to the calling Yep. And so, as they went their way, they knew what was and what wasn't God. When they went to Bithynia, the Spirit bade them not. Then they went to Mysia and the Spirit said no, you see, we got to realize that God is showing himself in our lives on a consistent basis. It's not just that one time when we cry out and we need him. It's a curious moment. There are God moments happening in our life. There are God moments happening in our life and when we set the stage, by spending time with him and telling him how great he is, that we'll catch those moments during the day that God is saying yes and no, we'll catch him, and I loved Pastor Tim's story. I tell you that just fires me up, but I'm telling you that God wants to do that for every one of his sons and daughters.
Speaker 1:Amen, amen, yeah, god speaking. Yep, I think there's a lot of times we want that clarity, we want that direction and God is speaking. But a lot of times we want that clarity, we want that direction and God is speaking, but a lot of times we're not willing to listen. That's it and that's like to your point in in in you guys, both being able to discern the voice of God and how it even changes, like there's been seasons in my life where I've I've actually audibly heard the voice of God one time, and other times, like I know he's speaking to me and it just looks different ways.
Speaker 1:Many times it's through my wife and through my kids and he'll confirm things and there'll be things that, like, he'll even speak to my wife before me and she's just praying. God, reveal it to my husband, and so you know, if you're married, in your marriage, you know, talk to your spouse, yeah, because there's something god is doing. He speaks to either of you, he'll speak to both of you, you know. But so god's always speaking and he wants, he's not, he's not trying to keep his plans and purposes for our life secret yes and a lot of people almost make it like it's.
Speaker 1:There's this mystery of of what's the plan for my life, like it's not a big secret.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, like it's, it's pretty obvious, yeah he has good plans for you, amen yes yes, but the fact is that you know where the fight is, that a lot of times we already know what he's asking us to do, but it's not what we want. That's it, and so the struggle. Like again to both of your stories. If we were opera, if you guys were opportunistic, you guys would have jumped into different scenarios which would have impacted the life of your son and his future would have looked completely different.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, you know. Yeah, no, I'm so glad that you said that piece there. Maybe there's somebody listening here who knows. You've discerned the voice, you've discerned the call and you're just being resistive, you're being like Moses and you're saying Adonai, send another. And the Lord's angry. Because the Lord knows what he's doing, the Lord knows more than you, he sees further ahead and he's inviting you to flex the muscle of faith and trust him. And, just like Pastor Mike said, man, just allow him to reveal to you it's Ephesians 320, man, he wants to do exceedingly above what you can even ask or think. You have these visions and you have your plans. And God's like are you kidding me? That is a drop in the bucket for what I want to do in you and through you, for my glory, you know, in the earth, in you and through you, for my glory, you know in the earth.
Speaker 2:If you'll endorse. I just want to ask this question to both you, dr Tim, and Pastor Mike how? Because it is what I'm discerning is that the call is principle and then the assignment is secondary. So, dr Tim, how can I remain faithful to the calling? Because that's, if there's anything that's competing in my life for it, it's that calling. So how can I remain faithful to that?
Speaker 3:I've made some comments about how wonderful our team and community, our staff, is here at LifePoint. The way we've lived it out here which actually has pulled me up it's pulled my relationship with the Lord up into other dimensions that have been so good is to be ruthless about putting yourself in communities that will love you to speak the truth and that demonstrate the character and love of Christ and find the cultures of which it's going to be life-giving and then lift you up and help you to keep the calling as primary. Now, if a person is deployed or out for a variety of circumstances in which they're out there by themselves, god will still shape and mold and be walking with them and they'll have special grace for that. But God's designed us for community. So to be careful about the selection of friends, to be careful about how we invest our relational capital with other people and make sure that we are with individuals that are going to be able to be catalysts in our growth, to keep the calling the number one thing while we're trying to discern assignment.
Speaker 2:Amen, amen. Thank you, pastor Mike. How can I keep that calling? And election sure, as you mentioned earlier.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think the biggest thing is learning to trust the Lord. You know, proverbs 3 says trust the Lord with all your heart and lean not to your own understanding. You know, when I was trying to make that decision about the bank or the ministry, I didn't trust my understanding. I had enough trust in God to know that money is related to God, which it is, but it doesn't mean that every opportunity is a God opportunity. Right, and I think if we learn to keep ourselves in partnership with people who are given to God, that God can order our steps and the blessings of the Lord will overtake us. But it's staying trusty and I think that's where, individually, we have to get into the scripture every day and our mouth needs to be speaking what our ears need to hear that we're all in for God. You know that's the battle cry at LifePoint. We want people to be all in for Jesus and the way to do that is to get into his word and surround yourself with people who believe the same way. Then you can maintain amen.
Speaker 1:And today I got probably for prayer, because we do prayer every Wednesday here at LifePoint at midday at noon in the lobby. Just a quick plug, yeah, but I got to meet with one of the guys that's in my small group.
Speaker 1:His name's Justin and, and he's young, and Justin is I'm looking up his age he's 35 years old, he's young, he's young yeah, he's young and he just made a life decision to walk away from a community that he had been in his mind, praying for, waiting for that. He's passionate about the online community, all these things that he's really great at, but he, in his journey to draw closer to the Lord and this is what he told me, this and I love this, and I know he's going to hear this. He was just saying you know that he knows he's in the learning season, and so he has submitted even his passions to God, and so if it meant giving up something that he was passionate about, he was willing to do it for the sake of growing closer, learning what God had for him for his life. As much as he wants to reach this community for Jesus, he's like I just have to be honest, maybe it's not for me in this season or there might be someone else that God will use. And so, again, just recently, he joined our small group a few months back, and when Justin ran, it was almost like an accident that he was recently.
Speaker 1:He joined our small group a few months back and when Justin ran you know it was it was almost like an accident that he was part of our small group. Yeah, we were talking. We were going through the tightest 10 with our men's small group and the topic we were talking about was identity. And and when he sat down and he saw one of the guys with their book and that we were talking about identity, that's really what hooked him, because a lot of us fight with identity. We fight with who am I, what's my purpose, what am I designed for? And when we struggle with identity, we struggle with what God wants. What's my calling, what's my assignment? And so, just watching Justin's life and his journey over the last several months and how he's learned his identity in Christ, he's submitted himself. You know we pray every morning, 545. And this morning he was part of the call. I'm like, hey, justin, can you pray?
Speaker 3:He goes all right, let's do it.
Speaker 1:You know, and he told me in person today, like, yeah, you know I wasn't sure how it was going to go, but I was ready, let's go. Yeah, and I think, just for anybody, this applies to all of us, regardless of the season of our life. When we struggle with identity, we're gonna struggle with the call of god back to moses yes he struggled with his identity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so he struggled with his obedience to the lord and that's why excuses came up, david, you you know, david knew who he was, and so you see the contrast there between Moses obeying the voice of God and David refraining from harming the appointed one. So he was anointed, but he was an appointed, that's right. King Saul was still the king, that's right, and so people would tempt him. Hey, take him out, hey go do this.
Speaker 1:You can. You have all these people, you have all the support. We'll support you. Yeah, overthrow him whatever, yeah, but he's like no, that's God's anointed. Yeah, even though he knew he was anointed. Absolutely, be obedient. And it also helps you refrain from not not pursuing things that are are not within god's timing, and so those are things that both of you guys display today and sharing your story yes and I.
Speaker 1:I could not help the fact that I just talked to this guy, justin yeah my boy justin, and I'm gonna go back earlier and go see him, or a little a little later and see him, but just how all of this relates and I don't I didn't think it was a coincidence.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, Come on man.
Speaker 1:It's awesome.
Speaker 2:I told you it was going to be an amazing episode. I tried to tell y'all this was going to be a good one.
Speaker 1:You know, and we got Pastor Mike Campbell all the way from Cookville, all the way from.
Speaker 2:Cookville, now yeah, cookville's finest PMC.
Speaker 1:thank you for joining us today. We're always glad when you're on. I think he's still on. He's probably taking a nap. He probably is he's praying.
Speaker 2:He's seeking the Lord. He's seeking the Lord. He's on his face.
Speaker 1:He's seeking the Lord. Dr Tim, always an honor.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Love you guys.
Speaker 3:Just sharing.
Speaker 1:Appreciate you and we love you guys just sharing, appreciate you and uh, and we just continue to pray that as you seek god, as you're looking for clarity, direction with your career, with your calling, in ministry, even in leading your family and leading yourself, you know, just learn from these. You know amazing men of faith that you know, just seek the lord and trust the lord. Come on, be in communion with him and it makes a world of a difference.
Speaker 2:It really does Yep All right Sweet. Hey. Well, let's say hey, we appreciate y'all tuning in this episode worship and leadership podcast. You guys be blessed. Have an awesome rest of your week. Peace, peace out yeah, come on that.
