The Worship and Leadership Podcast
Real conversations on worship, leadership, and living a faith-filled life beyond the platform. Hosted by leaders from LifePoint Church, this podcast is here to inspire, equip, and challenge you—whether you’re leading in ministry, in the marketplace, or just learning to lead yourself well.
The Worship and Leadership Podcast
Spiritual Authority vs Control
What happens when spiritual leadership crosses the line from authority to control? In this thought-provoking episode, we tackle one of the most challenging aspects of church leadership: the delicate balance between exercising God-given authority and falling into unhealthy control.
This episode isn't just for pastors or formal church leaders—it's for anyone who influences others. Whether you lead a small group, a household, or simply yourself, you'll gain transformative insights on exercising authority in a way that honors God and serves others well.
Listen now to discover how to lead with what Pastor Mike calls "humble confidence"—certain of God's calling while remaining teachable, accountable, and focused on pointing people to Jesus rather than to yourself.
Hey, what's going on, everyone, and welcome to the Worship and Leadership Podcast. My name is Elmer Cáñez Jr and, like always, we're so glad that you are joining us today for this episode of this podcast. And I got my friend, the one and only, willie C Simpson.
Speaker 2:What is up? I'm excited to be here today Come on somebody.
Speaker 1:Hey, you want to introduce our guest today?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do. I do want to introduce our guest. Oh boy, I always want to introduce our guest Over here to my left side. He is super talented, hey.
Speaker 4:Super gifted.
Speaker 1:Come on Super anointed.
Speaker 2:Well, his vocabulary is quite extensive.
Speaker 3:Vocabulary. Yes, no, that's not. I'm working on that. Y'all give it up.
Speaker 2:For the one, the only hip, hip, jarray Merriweather. What is?
Speaker 3:up. Is this the camera? Hi, how y'all doing, he is our.
Speaker 2:Rossview campus pastor yeah, and he oversees, with his wife, jess, our students ministry Amazing.
Speaker 4:Phenomenal job doing it.
Speaker 2:And over here to my right side.
Speaker 5:Right side, strong side, strong side, left side Strong, side Strong side, left side. Hey, I'm glad to be here.
Speaker 2:We are excited to have our fearless leader. I'm afraid.
Speaker 5:He is. He is, there's a dollar. Hey, okay, mike Burnett. Hey, so beforehand, here's what you don't know.
Speaker 2:Keep that beat going here.
Speaker 5:Yeah so. Willie what had happened was willie c simpson. The third is the second.
Speaker 4:He said he would give us a dollar yeah, for every time we did a little michael jackson yeah.
Speaker 5:So I literally sat here going trying to earn some cash because I gotta take my wife out on a date. I got you, but here's the, here's the counterpoint. Okay, you're at 22. Anytime we do one, you got to do one to delete it. Okay, so every dollar you owe you can earn back. Okay, too easy, and then it's a five dollar you can get back five bucks oh man, if you give us a hee hee all right, just that's ground rules for this squeeze that in, okay, oh man that just made it more fun hey, I have a question.
Speaker 5:So just while we're opening in intros, tell us why do you guys use full name initials first, second, junior, all of that because some people do and don't, and I've never asked you on the record since we're recording this, yeah but I'm a junior too, but I never use that and, like old school preachers, old school preachers used to use their initials yes, yes and just the last name, that's right wc simpson, yeah
Speaker 5:or if you had a doctor title, right, yeah, dr m r burnett the second, and it was like a thing to use your name as some kind of title, and I'm just Mike, you know. So, you're Elmer Conyos Jr. You're Willie C Simpson Jr. Do you carry the moniker Jr often?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do, okay yeah.
Speaker 5:And.
Speaker 2:Hip, hip Jarae, like that's what I'm talking about, that's just that's today. That's today, that's just today. And then I like to say murrow weather, because I like the little kentucky, that is very excellent.
Speaker 3:That'd make you sound like old, that'd make you sound like old deacon, like jerry murrow.
Speaker 5:Weather just feels muddy in your mouth.
Speaker 3:Now there's a lot of a and r's. Yeah, that is below the mason dixon line now you get a little bit above, there is mayweathers. Oh for real is reverend mayweathers is what it was my dad growing up, that's what they were called, not Meriwether Mayweathers.
Speaker 5:Same spelling, same spelling.
Speaker 3:M-E-R-I-W-E-L-E-R-I-N-E. It would be on every bulletin and it'd be Mayweathers, I guess. Speakers.
Speaker 5:Reverend Mayweathers mark a lot.
Speaker 4:wow, matt and like as the key note speaker at a thing wow, I've been called mark matt and uh mike, but anyway, I'm so back to you guys especially elmer and willie.
Speaker 5:You guys carry your whole name with junior.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've had to use it to distinguish myself from my dad. Just, there's a lot of things that we've applied to the same things and I've always done junior, because with male we would always get confused. Is this or mine Just growing up as a teenager? When I was?
Speaker 5:home, living in his house.
Speaker 1:Yeah, living in his house, and so I'm like you know what? I'm just going to use Junior and I've always done it. Yeah, your music is branded Elmer.
Speaker 5:Conyers Jr.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've had people tell me when I was doing the artist thing. They're like, yeah, your name's not an artist's name. I'm like, yeah, I know it's like a glue and but like I don't know, I embrace it. It's who I? It's my name.
Speaker 5:So yeah, yep, and your last name has been butchered. Oh, yeah, yeah, I'm going to pick on white people, please learn some Spanish Like if you're heard Canias.
Speaker 2:I've heard.
Speaker 5:Canis, and that's in the room I've been in with you and I think one time I shouted over for you it was your son, they were announcing it and I go.
Speaker 1:Canias. I just shouted it in the room. Yes, you did. Yeah, my first Sunday at LifePoint, they introduced me as Elmer Cani.
Speaker 5:That was not me.
Speaker 1:It wasn't you, but someone did. Yeah, I remember that, cognac. That's.
Speaker 5:I didn't want to say that they had an extra syllable to that. So how about?
Speaker 2:for you? Yeah, same thing. As a matter of fact, my college admission got delayed because I was putting my address and they were like put previous addresses, and so I listed only two of them and they were like no, that's wrong. We found three more. Oh wow, and it was for my dad. And so that moment taught me like no, I got to distinguish and put the junior on. That's why it's just. It's easier to your point when it comes to applying for things, especially like government documents and all that.
Speaker 5:It's just so much easier because of that delay. So it, dad, and you grew up with your dad. Same name, don't you have his first name? Nope, so that was.
Speaker 3:Randall. My dad's first name is Randy. He has no middle name, oh, and he didn't want to. He didn't want a junior and my mom was like, okay, we're going to name him Randall.
Speaker 5:I was like, really, so your dad's Randy, my dad is Randy. Oh, I thought he was Randall short Randy. No. Things you learn on a podcast.
Speaker 3:The things you learn, which I love my name. I'm proud of my name. But growing up no one ever called me Randall. It was from kindergarten to fourth grade. Everybody in elementary school called me Randall. So I changed it fifth grade to Jere and it was like a new coming out party. It was like who is this Jere? I don't know, Jarae Merriweather who is this?
Speaker 4:Mayweather, mayweather, mayweathers, mayweathers? You got to put the S at the end.
Speaker 1:That's what's hilarious. No S on his name. There's no.
Speaker 2:S on my name.
Speaker 3:Anyway.
Speaker 2:Jarae's Merriweathers, mayweathers, that I feel like that's a feature in the South for black people Like we will just straight up, just catastrophize words Like string and strawberry. We'll call it, you know, tie that string around that thing, you'll get your little bushel of strawberries, you know. And the S.
Speaker 5:We'll do it for everything that's Southern too. I mean we Kroger.
Speaker 3:It's Kroger's. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you don't just go to sonic, go to sonics come on, so I'm actually michael jr okay my number no jr.
Speaker 1:What's your middle name?
Speaker 5:richard, richard, come on jacob, you was right, mrb, so when?
Speaker 5:but I'd never grew up with my dad yeah my father and I have never lived in the same zip code since I was a year old, ever until 2011. He moved to Clarksville for about three years to go to church here, which was awesome it was a great season for us, actually but so I've never had to distinguish myself from him. But I remember when I, when I started needing my name for bills and stuff like that, I had those questions like I wonder if my dad's credit or his finances are going to come at me or could I tap into his money. I'm just saying Because I didn't know, so I never had to distinguish from him. My nickname growing up was not Mike, it was Mickey was my nickname as a child.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 5:And then he was Michael and I was Mike, starting in middle school. I guess All in school. I guess, like all in school, publicly I was Mike or Michael. But yeah, so I never have taken junior and sometimes I forget that I am a junior. But we've never lived in the same state, even except for those two and a half years when I was young as a pastor here. So I've never been confused. Now my wife, stephanie has been hit by collectors agents three different times for other Stephanie Burnett's who have debts that they're not paying. So clearly there's some Stephanie's out there that don't pay their bills. So we got we got hit hard when we were in Knoxville newlyweds with collectors just grilling and this is before the internet was popping and social media and cell phones. So they're just pounding us daily, multiple calls a day to collect on stephanie's debt from something in knoxville and she's never borrowed money for anything ever.
Speaker 5:Yeah, she has no credit score, yeah, but anyway. So you're right about the name, you know. That's why you hope your social security number right makes a difference.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but the junior might be helpful after all. Yeah, there was probably when I was much younger. My dad would even give me his debit card and that's when, like they would actually check, like, oh, is this you? It's like, yeah, here's my ID, and so help your kids.
Speaker 5:So now with international travel I'll just throw this out there my passport says junior on it, so anytime I travel internationally I have to put junior on my ticket. Right In the States it doesn't necessarily make a difference, but you can get stuck in an international airport if you don't have that on your ticket. So we've learned that the hard way too. Very true, anyway.
Speaker 3:Fun time. It's good to see y'all Fun time.
Speaker 4:See you, that's fine All right, fine, I was good, so you're good for five. That's a big bag. I'm just putting it on my tally right now.
Speaker 5:We had a great time jamming out to Michael Jackson songs earlier.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we did.
Speaker 5:I think something happens when we put these headphones on.
Speaker 2:Yeah it changes everything. Yeah, it's so clear in the headphones and the low end is nice.
Speaker 3:It's very soothing and melodious.
Speaker 4:Well, my voice is very soft is what I found out.
Speaker 1:This is why we have headphones on now, because the jury talks like really adding the low end right now.
Speaker 5:I don't know if you guys can tell hey, so we're all speakers and we use our voice as part of our jobs.
Speaker 4:We do yeah.
Speaker 5:Whether it's in counseling, preaching, singing, whatever. And recently I've had a string of vocal mess ups like flubs and mistakes and, honestly, like one of the reasons I manuscript my sermons is to help me not say dumb stuff. But it's not even dumb stuff that I'm saying or writing, it's like Freudian slips of words. I meant to say that I didn't mean to say, but then I say the wrong word and let me tell you there's no place like a Christian pulpit to say an accidental cuss word or an inappropriate word.
Speaker 5:And so articulation. We might need to go into some training on articulation. That would be great. It would be some great training.
Speaker 3:It would be.
Speaker 5:And the problem for us is we video everything, so it lives forever. It becomes little clips.
Speaker 1:Are we allowed to play any of that back? I mean privately.
Speaker 4:Privately yeah.
Speaker 5:Anyway, recently I had a—. Just let us know I'm new to Christ. I gave my life to Jesus. We want to give you some nipples. Simple neck stretch. Wait a minute, my Lord, wait, the room lost it. You tried doing this for a living four times on a Sunday. I don't want to hear it Shut up. Shut up, man. We had such a good time. So, yeah, that happened to me Sunday. I said we want to give you some simple next steps, and somehow simple next steps all got mashed into something else.
Speaker 5:And here's the problem. Sometimes I say little slips and I just keep moving. I couldn't move.
Speaker 2:The room instantly lost it.
Speaker 5:And it was like oh, it wasn't people even shy about it, it was instant, physical, visual, audible reactions.
Speaker 3:That was great so.
Speaker 5:I had to live with it.
Speaker 3:Yeah right.
Speaker 5:And then I had to make the most of it. So you try doing this four times like I don't know why.
Speaker 3:I feel like I get up there some sundays and it's like I have, I have a lisp and then, which you do not, I do not have a lisp right but the big red wall, yeah, it's like the why. All of a sudden it comes back. Who's bad?
Speaker 5:It brings us right back. That's so funny.
Speaker 1:That's great. Let's make a turn here. In today's podcast we want to talk about a really important topic. I just love how the Holy Spirit works too, because last week's podcast really lined up with the sermon from Sunday and this is pretty much the same thing, and we've planned out our episodes in advance. And today we're going to talk about spiritual authority versus control and leadership, and then we'll talk about that in a second. But I believe the Holy Spirit's at work, he's doing something that in a second. But I believe the Holy Spirit's at work, he's doing something special. You know, in our church and I'm excited to even tie this in and give you guys a preview about, you know, our Sunday sermon that Pastor Mike will be preaching.
Speaker 2:Come on, yeah, so quick recap. We're in our series in Revelations Letters to the Church.
Speaker 5:No S. Did you just put an S on the show? I did. I sure did On purpose. Mayweathers.
Speaker 2:On purpose, the letters to the church and revelations.
Speaker 3:For all you Bible readers out there, there is no S there's no S.
Speaker 2:The book of Revelation is at the back of your Bible, and Pastor Mike's been taking us through the letters from Jesus, through the Apostle John, to the seven churches in Asia Minor, what is now modern-day Turkey. And so we just finished up with Pergamum, and this Sunday we're heading into Thyatira, and I just think this is apropos, because the main issue there is their tolerance of wicked and ungodly leadership and the ramifications that the influence is having on the people in the church, and so it's definitely a very timely message for today. So just some opening thoughts, just some quotes that come to mind in thinking through this. Every leader has influence, but not every leader carries spiritual authority. Authority is something God gives, but control is something people try to take. Authority is something God gives, but control is something people try to take, and the difference between spiritual authority and control is the difference between shepherding and manipulating.
Speaker 2:I love that one, and then this one here from Pastor Mike. You make this statement. I believe it was this past Sunday and you know it was a kind of a rebuke challenge and just a great shepherding moment. You reminded our people hey, I don't work for you, I work for God, and I was just. I think that was so powerful because you would even, you know, alluded to it, or Pastor Jordan did. And talking about leadership again and remembering, you know, I love how you make the statement, pastor Mike. We lead people to Jesus, you're led by Jesus. We're leading people to Jesus. It's not the people leading us and trying to get Jesus to follow them. You know that's where we get twisted up. So can you just kind of unpack that more for those that didn't hear the message, like the danger of capitulating to the crowd, capitulating to those that you lead.
Speaker 5:Yeah, so our world is in a ministry context. We are serving under the kingship of Christ. Right, this is his church, this kingdom is his. He's the king of this kingdom, but he has servants at various levels. So I actually was going to write once on. I have a book idea that on the tensions of leadership that we never resolve. One of the tensions that we'll never resolve is this tension, as a senior pastor, between being a king and a jester.
Speaker 5:And people are king makers. They want a king. That's my guy, that's my pastor, that's my bishop, that's my leader. And I think people are naturally king makers. We always look to whether it's presidents, political figures, teachers, principals, parents, pastors we like our guy, our celebrity, our hero, our whatever.
Speaker 5:But in a kingdom there's only ever one king. There's never a kingdom with two kings, never, not one time in human history. If it was, it fell apart real quick. Or a kingdom that was usurped by an Absalom spirit, for example, or a Jezebel that was running the king. But there's still, technically, one king that oversees a kingdom and everyone is a servant to that king. Everything is in property ownership and held by the king, and the kingdom of God is the same way. Jesus Christ is the king of all kings, lord of all. Lord. He's the king of everything. He owns all this property, all this gear. He owns the churches. He owns the buildings, he owns the witness. He owns our sermons, our songs. Everything about this church belongs to the Lord and the proof of that is there's a day when I'm going to turn in my keys and leave. I'm going to resign, retire, transition. He deploys his subjects at his will in this court of this kingdom and I think pastor's best like analogy of our ability within the kingdom is a jester, like what's the role?
Speaker 5:There's a cupbearer who eats and drinks the food to make sure the king's not dead. The baker makes the food. There's the, the, the butlers, the ones who cleans the king's palace. There's the serfs and the, the you know the, the field workers. There's, there's all the different people in the kingdom, and a jester is the captivating voice who grabs everyone's attention, getting people ready before the king shows up.
Speaker 5:And as soon as the king comes, the jester goes. Let me have your attention, let me have your attention. There he is, our king is here, and he stands by the king, always directing to the king, and the jester typically has a level of ability to captivate an audience by entertainment. Juggling balls, I mean the kind of the image of a, of a medieval jester, is the, the costume and the juggling and all that stuff. And honestly there's a part of me that feels like my job as a pastor is not to be your king, it's to be the jester in this kingdom and I have the gifts and the ability and talent and the skill to capture your attention through preaching, leading in worship, whatever it is, and bring your attention to the king. John the Baptist said he must increase. Like that whole phrase, he must increase, I must decrease was on the tale of him telling his disciples behold, there he is, that's a jester.
Speaker 5:My job is not to be your king. And the problem, the reason we say that when kings fall, fail or die, people lose their minds. Well, there's a king that will never fall, fail or die. His name's Jesus. And if a jester falls, fails or dies, nobody quits the kingdom over it. Well, think about it. Every time there's a fail in a church, a pastor has a moral failure, or whatever people go. I can't trust the church anymore. I can't be a part. That's because you trusted in a jester and not in a king. So I'm just going to throw it out and say as pastors, we are skilled, we're talented, trained, we're anointed, all of that stuff but our anointing, training, talent is simply to expose the word or the presence of God in a way that it captures the people's attention on their King, not on us.
Speaker 3:Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's good.
Speaker 5:And so really what we do all the time gospel proclamation is about saying look, there he is and he's as he's exposed in the word, or or when we're leading folks in worship. I mean one of the songs that absolutely just wrecks me every single time we do it and I think our team does an amazing job on the production side to accentuate this when we hit that downbeat, all hail King Jesus. Yeah, that statement should be the moniker of ministry, that all we are is a downbeat and a proclamation. That song is so good and when we first introduced it I remember it was like I think it was an Easter.
Speaker 3:It was an Easter, it was like a rolling anthem.
Speaker 2:Maybe JT was leading that and his wife and the downbeat.
Speaker 5:I mean the music just went nuts. That was a terrible downbeat. And then the lights came up. Remember it was. The LED wall was full display, All the lights came up and it was like you couldn't even look at the stage anymore. I just remember being so captivated by what we were claiming and shouting, and I think that's the role of ministers. Our job is to do whatever we can to get people's eyes on Jesus, and if you simply make it about you, I mean, what kingdom have you ever heard of being built on a jester?
Speaker 4:Oh, I'm sorry.
Speaker 5:Hollywood. Yep, right, that's all this is. One of my problems with kind of the secularization even of our culture is that we have given away leadership to jesters, to entertainers, celebrities and public figures. That's why I don't care about a blue check on my name, because I mean, I'm not the one that the kingdom is built around. That's never our place. Our job is to realize I'm just a servant in another man's kingdom. His name is Jesus and when I come on the scene my goal is to say here he is, there he is. Look at the Lord, just like John the Baptist.
Speaker 5:Blaine Christensen is one of my best buddies in the world. He's part of our church and we have this little back and forth text exchange that we'll send to each other every once in a while, and it's simply this it's a hashtag. Jtb had it right, and it's in moments when we hear something that points to Jesus. John the Baptist had it right. Behold, there he is, the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world. Take a look at. Hey, his only job and his disciples were going John, you're the baptizer. You're John the Baptist. You know like why are you letting him baptize other people? He goes no, no, no, I must decrease so that he may increase. That's it. So your question was about spiritual leadership, in particular Our, our job is to remember we are serving as high level leaders in another man's kingdom and, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter if you're the queen or a prince or a jester, you're all subject to the king.
Speaker 5:No one's the king, but the king, even the queen. So all of us are subjects in this kingdom and he's the king, and the proof of it is he was grown before you came you know, grow when you're gone, yeah and he'll still be the king on his side. So man, that's so good. I think that perspective helps us stay humble, low and remember our place in the kingdom yeah, and in every.
Speaker 1:Every place in a kingdom has a responsibility, a role, a right, a privilege, an anointing for that yeah but you're still not the king yeah, and with those responsibilities and roles that you're talking about comes a sense of authority that we are given because we have to maintain, be responsible shepherd. You know the things that God's put in our hands. And I think that's where it gets confusing for people, like we're seeing in the book of Revelation, where someone's taking, they're abusing that power. And I think this topic is real sensitive in the sense that a lot of people I even want you to explain the term church hurt, cause you've, you've said it a lot where you, you know, you don't, you don't like that term, but a lot of people will shun the church because they feel like, oh, people have abused their authority in church leadership and it's gone from authority to control.
Speaker 1:I've been in places myself where control was really evident, you know, and sometimes you're a little bit more mature and the Lord gives you the grace for the season, but then there's people where it actually breaks people, you know, where leaders do take advantage of that, and so there is that distinction between the authority that we're given under the King and then the control that we usurp because we think that we are the King. You know, and so can you. Can you break that down a little bit, I think that sure.
Speaker 5:Yeah, yeah. I think control is always the result of thinking you own something. First of all, and especially in the church world. I mean, I think of any place to remember you're not an owner, it's the church. I mean, this is a 2000 year old organization. Right, we're just one expression in one town, in one state, in one country on this globe. I mean, there's 200 plus countries in the world where the church is growing in spite of LifePoint you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:So like.
Speaker 5:let's just remember we're part of a global movement, a timeless organization. But control is often the result of insecurity and thinking that you own something. But the idea of uh, I used to say I I've said it publicly there's no church, there's no hurt like church hurt. And part of that is my own story. I mean the, the. I write about it in my book, parable church, how my family got kicked out of the church from the pulpit. The pastor was preaching, stopped the sermon, told Ms Burnett, you and your boys need to leave and don't come back. So I understand what people mean when they say that. The challenge is it demonizes the whole organization to say the church hurt me. Well, which one?
Speaker 5:Like all of the church hurt you. The entire organization of God's anointed, ordained ambassador of the gospel wounded you. Or maybe some people in that church hurt you and I get like it's all loaded with. Like you know, it was theological abuse or it was bad theology, bad doctrine, it was misappropriation of scripture against me. Okay, that's still done through humans. The institution doesn't hurt anybody. People in an institution do so. I think we can say I was hurt by people in church, but the church hurt me. People in an institution do so. I think we can say I was hurt by people in church, but the church hurt me. I've been church hurt. Some people just get they roll their eyes at me because I'm such a word nerd with things like this because I start thinking through what is the implication of that statement.
Speaker 5:And it means the church, the ordained organism of God's people, the body of Christ, has wounded you and I don't think that's even possible. And the analogy I say is well, I might get my car damaged by somebody rolling their cart into it at Walmart. I didn't get Walmart hurt. I don't cancel Walmart for the rest of my life. I go park somewhere else or find a different Walmart. Maybe I go to Kroger's Kroger's.
Speaker 3:Kroger's. I was going to say Kroger's is good, Kroger's is good, but we don't get hurt by anything else.
Speaker 5:I don't get job hurt, Walmart hurt, you know. Six Flags hurt, Disney World hurt. But people at Disney World offend you the whole time. You're there. What you talking about?
Speaker 3:You can get me started.
Speaker 5:So I think there's something about okay To your point about the term church hurt, I just think it's it's a misappropriation of what happens. Somebody in the church bothered me, offended me, hurt me Fine, we'll deal with that person. But it's so easy to just throw away the entire body of Christ because Christians offended you, right. So, and we also don't have. We have no mercy in our lives for humanity within the church and we expect a lack of humanity in the highest places of public square. There's no room for presidents and government officials to be human, Anyone on television and anyone in real leadership. I mean there's no room for humanity there. So when a church person hurts you, whether it's in the parking lot or the pulpit, I mean you just want to throw the whole church away. Well, this is still God's ordained framework for the family of God to gather in worship, to grow under a pastor, to have care. It's the ordained framework for God to promote the gospel. It's through the church the manifold wisdom of God will be known. Colossians says so I think it's. It's a cheap shot, it's a lazy way of not dealing with offense. Yeah, and at the end of the day it's bad theology to go. I don't need the church.
Speaker 5:I was doing premarital counseling this morning with a young couple. I said this is the only God has ordained this marriage to be two becoming one for the first time in your life since you were born. God's creating something new out of you and it's the two of you together and you're the only relationship meant to reflect Christ in the church. We don't ever expect married couples to live apart all the time. We call that healthy, and yet we say Christianity can live apart from the time. You call that healthy and yet we say christianity can live apart from the family. That doesn't make any sense to me. So I I just think it's too there's. There's just too much. We're too easy, too quick to throw away, yeah, the body and then blame church. Hurt. Of course christians are going to hurt you. We're people say church, I don't want church fully hypocrites, and my joke with that is always we're not fully hypoc hypocrites yet. We got plenty of room for more. But it is a place where people are wrestling through their own spiritual maturity and emotional intelligence.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 5:I'm the chief among them. I mean, I'm working through my own spiritual maturity here as the leader of the thing and I'm going to hurt you? I don't mean to, I promise you I don't. But because we're in a relationship we should have the ability to work through that. But anyway, so when those in authority, those who have leadership, hurt you, whether you're on staff or a, when you do have a perspective of the hurt was directly from an organization as a whole, then you tend not to pursue resolve and you're like just the church in general and you don't, you don't go to another leader, you don't go to someone else that can speak into that.
Speaker 1:Some people even avoid Christians as a whole because they feel like, oh they're, they're connected to Jesus, I don't want anything to do with that. And then they live their whole life wanting what the church offers Right. But just because they don't want to deal with the conflict, you know face to face, they're missing out on what God has for them.
Speaker 5:I think it's an unfortunate reality. In our culture too. We've put everybody in a social construct, everybody's. I talked about this once before. We put everybody in a social ghetto. Yes, so you belong to a community now. You're part of the Democrat party or the Republican party, you're part of this community or that community and you're part of the Christian community, and so because you are a part of that group, you embody everything about that group. So I can't have anything to do with you, because somebody in that group upset me Right. You know what I've realized about Democrats and Republicans we all want the same stuff. Ultimately, I want to go to work, come home, enjoy my family and live in safety with my doors locked and nobody breaking in.
Speaker 5:I think Democrats and Republicans all want that. Yeah, and so it's when it's when we lose the human side of people in a group, church, christians. Humans are imperfect. They hurt you. It's not fair to just lump anybody into whatever the black community, the Hispanic community, the white community, northerners, southerners we paint with such broad strokes that people lose their humanity if they belong to a group. You're just from the north, you don't understand. I had a guy tell me once we were talking about pastors drinking and smoking and I just had a problem with that. He goes well, you're Southern man, you guys are conservative Southerners down there. I was like he's from Colorado. I go yeah, we're so Southern, we don't have any Bibles or spirit led living or like wisdom, no addiction problem. I mean, what are you talking about? But we just broad stroke people into categories and social ghettos and then we just assume things about them because somebody in that group sometime hurt me.
Speaker 5:Yeah that's good and I don't think it's fair, honestly. I mean it doesn't give grace for people and mercy.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So what? Why do you think, thinking through the church and I appreciate your expounding on that Pastor leaving the church, leaving yourself vulnerable because you don't have this covering why do you think, as humans, we just have this aversion to authority? Why do you think that is Pastor Jerry? Like we just have this aversion. I don't want anybody telling me what to do. Why do you think that?
Speaker 3:is. Well, most of that is from people. They don't like conflict, so they're conflict averse. So they will do everything they can not to hear that truth or face that truth, or face that fear of being rejected or being belittled or cast down from whatever that hurt was. So they'll do everything they can to divert that.
Speaker 3:I myself was in a situation before attending here that I went a couple months not really attending church and I was raised in church and I was just like I don't want to do this right now. I don't. My first Sunday here I had every intention to come and sit and leave and I thank God for the word that was preached and the word that was brought forth, because in my heart, my heart was hardened towards the organization and I wanted to sit in my one service and listen to Pastor Mike. He was preaching at the time and I had a Bible open and I was like man, I'm hunting. What is he going to say off kilter? What is he going to say wrong? I'm going to find it. I got my Matthew Henry commentary, my Vines Dictionary.
Speaker 3:I was like I came with a library to church Come on, now let's go. But what I found in that, again, thank God for his grace, thank God for his mercy and just my heart, willingly, I was still seeking God, but I didn't feel like I felt like I didn't want to deal with the people of God because of some of the tough conversations, some of the authority that had been abused in my life or some of the things that I had seen in ministry over the years and I was like man, I'm just. I'm done with this. I know it's important for my family. I wanted my kids around it. I wanted my wife, who was not raised in church, to be in a, be a part of a church. I knew that was important, but I wanted to do it on my terms. So, but I wanted to do it on my terms, so I think a lot of folks that will keep away or stay away from that.
Speaker 3:They don't want to face the conflict or they now want to do church on their own terms and they don't want to submit to pastoral leadership. They don't want to submit to visions and missions of churches because of what they've experienced A lot of. I mean, just being honest, in the communities that I grew up in and folks that I saw it wasn't, the things that were taught were more so handed down from generation to generation. So I think a lot of that, too, comes from. I've heard Pastor Mike tell the story of your grandfather. You know all that pastor wants is your money. You know I too grew up hearing that that's all they want is your money.
Speaker 3:And I'm like no man. We scratching and surviving for some of these church doors to stay open. I mean my dad doing revivals and they're handing out toilet paper and canned goods at the end of revival. It wasn't, like you know, this was a gift, a love gift to the pastor and his family. So I mean, I've seen both sides of this where you know this is something handed down, versus like hey, this is the kingdom of God, like really getting into his word, really knowing who he is and seeking him. We're seeking, we're seeking I hate to say it, I'm going to just say it we're seeking buildings and we're seeking the King Come on.
Speaker 2:I love that. So I find it odd that as as human beings, we don't struggle with the concept of having authority in other spaces, outside the church. You go to work, you have a boss. If you are at an event, that's happening and you're being directed by leaders there, we don't struggle with that. When you go to your medical professional, we don't struggle with them having authority to be able to speak and lead you. But when it comes to the church, that's just where we tense up. We kind of pucker up and just wince at the notion that there would be somebody who would speak into my life and would have authority or influence in decisions that I make regarding that. So, pastor Mike, can you just kind of speak to that? Why pastors are a gift, because you've used that term before. Pastors are a gift to the church, which I thought was so brilliant. Can you just kind of unpack that?
Speaker 2:yeah for those that really do wrestle and struggle with that you know one of the greatest.
Speaker 5:Yes, I'm gonna get to that. But when you're talking about the authority in other parts of life at work, at school, I mean police officers, right, how many of you drive without a seat belt? See a cop? You just kind of sneak your seat belt over.
Speaker 4:I don't do that I put mine on when I start driving.
Speaker 5:But anyway, my point is, like you know, you kind of let your foot off the gas if you're speeding, because you, just you understand yeah yeah I think one of the most powerful authorities in culture is a stanchion line.
Speaker 2:You know them little lines like at the bank, yeah, like a movie theater or something.
Speaker 5:Yeah those little cloth, rope lines. Those things control people better than anything else in the world. Look, I go to the airport and I will watch grown-ups walk back and forth through an empty line you know when they're empty right, and it's like, can we just open all these up and cut through? Oh man, left right, left right, left right, left right, left right, left right. And I just and I, stephanie gosh, we're so different. I will literally say I know how these things work, I'll just take the rope off.
Speaker 5:And she goes. Don't do that, just walk through. You know she's a real rule follower. Anyway, it's my little. One of the most powerful authority figures in the culture that we have today is rope lines at a theater or an airport and like get out, go ahead and jump the line, watch people come unglued.
Speaker 5:Line cutting is one of the craziest ways to tick people off, isn't it? I get on a plane and I'm like I have an assigned seat I paid for. I'm not trying to take your seat, I don't need your overhead space, I got a backpack on. Like, why are you so angry? I had to fly back from Africa last week and you know now they're all pushing down on getting on the plane in your group. Right, I was in this group and this guy in a later group came and jumped, cut me in line and I see his boarding pass in his hand and he's four groups after me and I'm telling you, everything in me wanted to go. Sir, you're in the wrong group Because I'm telling you there's something about the authority of cutting a line and we learned it as children. I think a line and stanchions are one of the most controlling authority figures in the world.
Speaker 2:Okay, anyway, so I was just thinking about that randomly.
Speaker 5:But just pay attention, next time you're standing in line. Hey you want to mess with people hey, next time you're standing in line, this is hilarious. I don't know why this, because I'm the youngest of three boys. This is why I think this way. Next time you're standing in line and it's like you know a line progressing up to say, the counter at the bank, or let the line move forward and don't move with it like just stay in your spot, yes, and just stand there with your hands in your pocket or on your phone.
Speaker 5:Someone will tap you and say can you move forward? Yeah, it's like I'm still wait, I'm not next, like I'm not now, and so just just move slow as a line moves, and you will feel like somebody is going to cut your Achilles tendon, oh man. It's so crazy. Like the lines are in an amazing.
Speaker 5:I want to think, I want to read more about, like how is it that standing in a queue if you're from Europe, standing in line is such a control, controlled environment and everyone knows the rules, yeah, and yet there's no rules.
Speaker 2:I wonder if it's like a herd mentality.
Speaker 5:I don't know what it is, dude, I'm telling you.
Speaker 2:That's a good point, though.
Speaker 5:If you don't move with the line, people will comment. They'll tolerate it for one move, but if they move a second time and you don't go. It's like Sir, are you moving? Do it in your car.
Speaker 1:I was at Starbucks one time Car rider lines.
Speaker 5:Yes, car rider. Yes, yes, I was at starbucks one time and I was just sitting there. There was like a line around the building and I didn't move fast enough. The guy behind me got around me and cut in front of me. He wanted that copy, bro, and so I had my window down and I was like. I literally was like do you feel better, sir? Like I shouted it out the window. This is not. I'm not proud of that. This was not recent.
Speaker 2:This was how long ago was it, I don't know, two years?
Speaker 5:ago, two years ago anyway. Uh, it was in another town, I'm just kidding sango starbucks, but anyway, I just remember thinking, sir, do you, do you feel better sir? And he looks back at me like I did something wrong. It was just wild to me.
Speaker 5:I think lions are a weird place of authority you asked the question about humans and church authority and I think I think, just from my experience as a pastor, I think religion has wounded a lot of people in an attempt to be the church. So paul writes to timothy. He says in the last days, part of the last day's reality is people will have a form of godliness without the power of God, and the power of God is real Christian relationship. A form of godliness is religion, which brings constraints and controls. And listen, jesus has a very simple invitation into Christianity Follow me. Religion says, obey me.
Speaker 5:And I think if church becomes religious because of control or fear or a lack of control, right, like one of the fastest ways to get me to be controlling is make me feel like I'm losing control. And so when you got folks that don't look like vote, like date, like smell, like talk, like you, it is unnerving as a leader to say things like anybody's welcome to be in our church, right, but then you lose control of the type of people that are coming. I may control the service, but I can't control the type of people that are here and what they're doing out there. The most tempting thing to do to regain control is rules and religion. Well, that over time wounds people like crazy, and so I think that is a stigmatic part of the answer to your question, like why do people struggle with religious people telling them what to do?
Speaker 5:We also have in our culture, and particularly in the US, this separation idea of church and state that faith is very private and so I'm going to keep my faith to myself, which means nobody has a right to speak into it. And it's an unintended consequence of privatizing faith, taking prayer out of everything, taking faith out of everything, which is part of the reason, like even in the last two weeks, charlie Kirk's death, the response to political leaders having the gospel on the craziest full display we've ever seen in our nation's, our living history as believers. I mean, the top leaders of our country were in one unison, accord, making room for the gospel to be preached at Charlie Kirk's funeral, and I think 100 million people watched it. What feels so uncomfortable about that is we have, by the way, I think it's awesome, I'm not uncomfortable about it at all, but what people are commenting on is that you know this, this religion in the public space is is anti-constitutional, because that's the unintended consequence of this privatizing your faith and and so, and then also the, I think, another thing.
Speaker 5:So so we have the sting of religion over years. We have the privatization of faith, which means hey, what's private to me you don't have a right to talk about Right? And then, on top of that, pastors want to be familiar. So, pastors, we live in a context right now, like in the eighties, pastors were the guys in the study. You go back and like, evaluate church buildings. Even when they constructed church buildings, they built the pastor's study.
Speaker 2:Now it's the pastor's office.
Speaker 5:Like even that shift in language in a perspective. So we want pastors to have office hours to be available to me, and so there's a familiarity of the role of pastor, which means hey, man, we're, we're too familiar for you to tell me that. And now the other side of it is people treat their pastor like if you don't say what I like or I'm out, I'm going to go find another church that will.
Speaker 5:And so pastors live with this fear, like I'm just going to tell you it's a hard day to be a pastor, especially when things are contentious. I've had people texting me like why didn't you say this? When are you going to say that you didn't say enough? Or you said too much, wow, about whatever? Blm, george Floyd's murder, covid vaccine, charlie Kirk's assassination that's not an assassination. Oh, we're going to get into parsing words at that level. I'm just telling you it's a hard.
Speaker 5:And then, because people see their pastor not as a gift from God and that sounds very, you know, narcissistic for me to say it. The Bible says God has given some that's the word gift. It's a charismatic gift to be pastors and teachers and apostles and prophets and evangelists. God has gifted the body with these ministry offices. People don't see that their pastor and their staff pastor, their worship leader, their apostolic leaders in their church, as a gift from God for them. They see them as an employee at the church they attend, and that's not everybody, but I think it is pretty regular. So I think there's religion wounds, I think there is the privatization of faith. Don't tell me what to do. I mean, we built a nation on.
Speaker 4:We hate kings.
Speaker 5:Don't forget, america was founded on don't tread on me. And we really like. If you go read the declaration of independence, the first half is brilliant, the back half is like. And that dirty king. He's a dirtbag and his breast stinks and he got wooden teeth. I mean, they're just petty about the king. We built the culture around no kings. So then, all of a sudden, when the king sends a gesture to say hey, the king wants you to shape up and live like he says you go, don't tell me what to do. So I think it's a lot of things, honestly, and I think one of the greatest heart postures that any Christian can have myself included every pastor needs to hear this too is you need to have a willing heart of submission to the kingship of Jesus and to the authority that God gives you, and it's you know. It sounds really. Probably I'm the last person that should be telling people this, because it sounds really self-serving for me, but I promise you my heart's not to get you to serve me. I want you to serve Jesus.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 5:But I just know that God has gifted us as pastors to be a place of spiritual authority in people's lives, and that's why one of the questions I ask people when they're having troubles on our staff is do I have the right to speak into your life anymore? Do I have the right to correct you? Are you teachable from me? And I've had to have that conversation a number of times with team members that were on their way out and when they realize no, I'm not going to listen to you, I go well, I don't, I don't, I can't be your pastor anymore. Than what are we doing? Let's figure out something else, and I think there's a place. So I'll just confess this and I'll shut up.
Speaker 5:My overseers know I have three overseers and a pastor and they have all access to anything in my life and one time they had one of my overseers. Rod Loy had to be brought in on something just like a conversation, and I just told him. I said, hey, I just want you to know when you have this conversation. Whatever you decide for me, I'll submit to it. Now it was a possible correction. And he said are you sure you want to hear what it's about? I said I trust you and I'm submitted to you. So I'm telling you now, whatever you decide, I submit to today before you have that conversation. He said, okay, call back. And he said there was nothing there.
Speaker 5:It was a false accusation or whatever about something that was completely off, out of left field. But I, I've just decided, I'm just telling you, mike Burnett, I can't speak for anybody else in this church or on our staff. I've decided I'm submitted to my leadership and I think it's part of, I think it's part of the pipeline of God's authority in my life. God's given me pastors and overseers for a reason not to be yes men, my god gosh. They are not yes men, in fact, but their spiritual authority that I trust, who care for me. They don't care about their leadership over me as much as they care for me and my good and that's that's part of what a good pastor should do is like we're leading people for their good, and so anyway, yeah, and I just want to speak to the fact I know it's, it's hard to say that coming from you you sharing that.
Speaker 5:Well, it feels opportunistic and a little self-serving.
Speaker 1:But I do want to say every decision that we make as a church, on our leadership team, is for the people, and that's something that you've modeled really well to all of us, even as we're making decisions, as we're being corrected. There's several things I've done just where, like, we're trying to figure things out, systems and what might be easier, but at the end of the day, your feedback is always and feedback is important, obviously, in accountability. It has always been well. Is that best for the person that will be impacted by this, the end user?
Speaker 1:You know, for lack of a better term and so you're always thinking of the people before anything, before even the processes, and so I I appreciated that about you, and so I just say that because it's an example of how you use your authority not to get what you want, or you even your preferences. You know, we know you like Michael Jackson and stuff and things like that and um, but but you don't impose your own preferences into what decisions we have to make, but you do always align us back into like the people and where we're leading them, which is to lead them to become fully devoted followers of Jesus, and so, as you're saying that, you know even sharing that story about your. You know your overse, rod Loy. What would be an example of correcting somebody in a healthy way as a leader so you're the leader in authority what would be a correct way or a healthy way of bringing correction to somebody that you're either leading in your church or on your staff?
Speaker 5:Sure, I think leading with questions is always helpful. When you're having to bring correction and and you want to correct people, that's redemptive for them. Now there's. There's sometimes where it's urgent, like there's, let's say, it's an abusive situation. You got to protect the abused more than the person you're correcting, right. So you gotta, you gotta stop danger. You gotta protect people.
Speaker 5:Okay, so let's just say in a benign sense, somebody speaking out of turn, cussing in a small group, you know, or just violating the rules. You always want to bring correction to people in a way that's redemptive for them and allows them to, to like, find a victory over the thing that they were having to be corrected over. It's not shame based, it's not. I can't believe you, dirty scoundrel. You know like you want to lead people in a way that helps them in their devotion to Jesus, and so, even in correction, jesus corrected people and he did it in a way that moved them forward in their devotion to himself. I think about that story with Peter when he said caught him Satan to his face, but he didn't cancel him, he didn't cut him out of his life, he gave him room to be corrected. And then we don't see like a conversation after the fact. But we can assume that Peter chewed on the fact that Jesus called him Satan in front of his buddies because Peter said something dumb, you know like yeah, I'm not going to let you die.
Speaker 5:No matter what, I'm not going to let you be crucified and he says get behind me, satan. You don't know the mind of God. You know there's something about being confrontive, about being honest, but you want to do it in a way that's redemptive for people. I like to bring connection with questions and I think you guys have heard me kind of talk about it before. I have one question that I love to ask yes, do you know what it is? Help me, help me understand.
Speaker 5:That's it, and it's meant to clear, because sometimes I think people make honest mistakes because they don't have the same understanding as me, and I know, as a leader, I have a different level of understanding about how things are connected, for example, and how this thing touches that thing or whatever, and sometimes I just don't know you well enough to know why you made a decision like you did Usually things that need correction, and we're dealing with adults here. You know we're not talking about our children, so in a work environment or in a small group or in a leadership role, you're dealing with adults. Just help me understand how you came to that decision instead of coming at somebody with hey, I heard you did. How dare you? What are you thinking? I mean, you get in the same question what are you thinking? But I just want to ask, in a way that's life-giving, help me understand that. Okay, well, maybe there's a way that we could have done that Do I have room to speak into that.
Speaker 5:Sure, yeah, I'd love to hear from you. Okay, well, I think I would do it this way or that way and at the end of the day I'm going to, I want to. I think correction should be quick, direct, life-giving, and then just move on. You know, find ways to measure the correction, like, hey, let's try that again, maybe next week, let's try it this way and let me know how you went, how you did, and I just feel like just say it, move on and be redemptive and love, be loving. But then also one of the things that we try to model here and you can speak into this, because you lead a lot of our team members too, deray we want to lead around values.
Speaker 4:That's it.
Speaker 5:So one of the things we say is that doesn't fit us here, or that may be how you did it at your last church, or maybe that's how you do it at work. That's not how we do things here. Can you speak to that? I mean because we use seven value statements and I think it's a great way to bring correction, because value shaped behaviors and very often we we, we correct behaviors by just telling them why their behavior was wrong, because I said so. But if you, if you, attach it to a value statement, it hits different.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I mean in that I mean, yes, we, we got our values, we have a mission, we have our vision as a church. So in those conversations that we're having with our leaders, even sometimes even with students, it's just making them aware You're bringing them alongside, You're bringing that alignment back into the mission, vision and values of the church. So, just going through our values, we love God, Come on somebody.
Speaker 4:You better love God.
Speaker 3:You love people, we develop leaders, we pursue excellence, we grow intentionally, we give generously and we choose joy. Come on somebody. So in that, think about that conversation of redirection as a pastor or even as a leader. It should have those values in it, like everything is filtered through that. Everything is going to come through that. Even if it's a tough conversation and I've had my share of tough conversations I want to lead through those values. I wanted to. As Pastor Mike just said, you want it to be life-giving. I'm not just here to correct a behavior. I want people's lives to be transformed. God didn't send Jesus to die on a cross for me to behave right. He died on a cross for me to have a heart transformation, for my life to be lived in him, be found in him. That's a word. So, as you're thinking about this, as you're leading, you said something earlier about just religion and I just man. That word is so tough for me Because that's I feel like religion is very rigid and it's all law-based. There's no relationship really aspect to that.
Speaker 5:Yeah, religion. By definition, if you Google it, it's something along the lines of it's a system of beliefs. It's a system of practices and rituals aligned with a belief in some form of deity, right Like. The idea is that it starts with behaviors, rituals and practices. But we believe Christianity is built on relationship and intimacy with God through the person of Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit, in obedience to the word, and it's like obedience is a result of loving God, not what produces a love for God. A lot of people say I'm religious. I'm religious. That doesn't impress me at all.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5:But religion hurts after a while. I mean religion is the failed experiment of the old covenant According to the book of Hebrews.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 5:If it would have worked to change a heart, he wouldn't need to send Jesus. The writer of Hebrew says that's right, yeah.
Speaker 5:So I know that's a little shocking when I go is the failed experiment to change a heart, to get people close to God. The reason Christianity is the only working faith system on the planet is because it's the only exchange of goods between God and our heart where he gives us a new heart by the Holy spirit coming to live on the inside of us. Yeah, come on, that's that ain't religion, that's an exchange. Yeah. And Ezekiel says, in prophecy of the messianic prophecy, he says I will remove a heart of stone, which is the result of religion and the consequence of religion.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 4:And.
Speaker 5:I'll give them a new heart of flesh. In Hebrews he says as you've heard it said, I will write my laws on their heart. And so religion is painful and it's exhausting. And the other problem with religion sorry this is is you can find so many loopholes. Yes, right.
Speaker 3:That's you. You find yourself in that, where you're constantly looking, and I, I think that's when people face pastors, when they face leadership, and they're looking at it as religion. That's what their minds are. Well, how far can I go? How much can I get away with? I didn't have total intercourse.
Speaker 5:We were just doing some stuff messing around. That's why Jesus said you've heard it said. But I say yeah, you've heard it said don't commit adultery but I'm telling you if in your heart, that's why he's always challenging people at the heart. Yeah, you've heard it said don't murder, but, man, if you hate your co-worker. Yes, you basically murdered him. You've murdered him because, because the hatred in your heart is the same thing that caused that murder that's right anyway that's good.
Speaker 5:Religion has a ton of loopholes. It's the. It's the rope lines. When I go, I know how to take that rope line off and put it right back like it was I'm actually good at that, because we have stanchions here. I know the different models. There's the hook kind like at the movie theater. There's the kind with a little button on the bottom.
Speaker 3:You got the one with the little lever. There's the broke ones that they tie it off. That's right.
Speaker 5:That's all I got to do, and then here's the other hack Just do the limbo yeah. Or at or at my height, just step right over. And here's the thing we leave behind all the rules without any of the transformation. Yes, that's it. Religion kills, it creates hard hearts and you do that long enough, you got a hard heart. So when you lead by values, when you lead by the mission, love. God relationship intimacy to the Lord, it's way different and it allows the correction then to be redemptive right.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I mean you work with hundreds and hundreds of students and leaders and there've been times you have to sit in there and bring correction as the man of authority. You and your wife are sitting there with a couple. I mean you want to be loving and firm with a goal of redemption, and how do people react to that? Versus you signed up to be a live different students. How dare you? Don't you know our list of covenants that you said you wouldn't break?
Speaker 3:I'm telling you, approaching it in this way, it is life-giving on both parts. Yeah, you, and honestly, what you, what you really do, come on holy spirit. You give the Holy Spirit access to that moment. And it's not this is as a gesture we're always pointing back to God and in that moment you get to see God work. You get to see God either redeem a relationship, or you get to see God open up their eyes or of what they've been blind to, or you see release, you see healing, you see deliverance. In that process of having these conversations and it's not because, hey, you're the pastor and you have to have the, or you did it. You've allowed God to come into this thing and work and bring forth that, that thing, that connection, that relationship with those, with those people. So it's beautiful.
Speaker 2:So, thinking through the, the, the privilege and the responsibility that we have as leaders to lead. Well, you know, we want to be humble enough to recognize when we're not leading in a way that honors God and is not good for people. So, pastor, I want to start with you and then with you. Pastor, what are some? Maybe some warning signs or some telltale indicators that we are not exhibiting healthy spiritual authority, but this unhealthy control?
Speaker 5:So there's a statement I use. I used to use a lot more. When I took over the church I was 30. I'd never been a senior pastor before and I had people challenge me because I was too young, I was too inexperienced. But I'm here, like I already got the job. I remember early on folks would come to the church and they'd say we'd love to take you to lunch, get to know you, and I had this kind of I think I was a little attitudinal about it. To be honest with you, is that a word?
Speaker 2:Attitudinal is a word, yeah.
Speaker 5:I don't know if you used it right, but it is. I was at a dinner and it was early, probably I'd been here two years or so and somebody was asking me all these questions about my theology and my position on this and that I don't know what happened to me. I don't know if I was in the flesh or what, but I said you know, I already have this job. They kind of looked at me like what I said why are you interviewing me for a job I already have? I'm already the pastor of this church. Oh, we just want to know where you stand on X, Y and Z.
Speaker 5:It's like that's fine, but this feels like an interview and I've already been through this and we're already growing and like I'm already here and I started thinking through that and I think I probably was just frustrated and at the moment, not even at that person because I thought why do I still feel this need to define myself as as if I'm the person in charge, as the pastor, Right? And I started wrestling through this idea of humble confidence, which is feels like an oxymoron, right, it's like pretty ugly or jumbo shrimp. Humble confidence is, I think, part of the responsibility of a leader to figure out, and it doesn't matter if you're leading a small group of five middle school boys or you're the senior pastor of LifePoint. I'm very humble that God has assigned me to this role And'm confident that he has.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and I'm humbled by it and I'm so humbled that he is confidently put me here and it humbles me Like there's, there's this dance of I'm humbled that he has absolutely put me here, and and so then I started thinking like what does that mean then?
Speaker 5:How do I, how do I live in that space? And so you know, you asked kind of what are the signs that I think you have to stay humble? Okay, somebody asked me yesterday. They wanted me to do some coaching on pastors stuck at like two, 50 to 300 people on their Sunday services and I said one of the challenges that I found in coaching pastors for the last 15 years is the friend group. They surround themselves, don't think growth Like they don't think about the church the way they do. A lot of guys have bros in ministry. I got a ton of bros in ministry but I have a few grow bros in ministry.
Speaker 2:Does that make sense? Like I have a few?
Speaker 5:guys. It's like being on a football team and like I can hang with the whole team, or I can hang with the guys that are getting swole and getting really strong and I want to go do? I want to work out with them and I'm on the team with the whole team. We all want to win, we all wear the same jerseys, we all eat the same granola bars during the you know whatever. But if lift, one more rep, one more set, and so I think mindset like okay, so how do I walk in home of confidence? One of the ways, I think, is I have a peer group that are absolutely thinking down the road with me and they're thinking down the road ahead of me. I think of guys like Anthony Daly in Clarksville, I mean that dude is a grinder, freddie T in Clarksville.
Speaker 5:Workers man, they're just thinking kingdom growth. Derek Smith, grinder freddie t and clarksville workers man, they're just thinking kingdom growth. Derrick smith, out of town guys in my, in my world, they're just challenging growth. It doesn't matter the size of our organization, it's just a heart to just do more for god.
Speaker 5:Yeah you know, I'm saying yeah so there's that and it will keep you humble when all of a sudden guys are checking you on stuff that they we talked about and they didn't succeed it and you were like just still talking about it, thinking about it, praying about it phase. And then you look back and you go you actually did the thing we were talking about. It's like oh snap, and it worked.
Speaker 5:So, I think guys with growth mindsets are like guys that are going the same place as you. So if you're a small group leader, you're a parent, you need parents around you. That are talking about how to have world changing kids. Last night, stephanie and I went and put our kids to bed. We kiss all our girls when we go to bed and Stephanie walks in each room and she says good night, you're a world changer, I love you Like. I want parents who think like that about their kids.
Speaker 5:You know what I'm saying. So I think and confident when you're running with folks that are thinking like you, when you have accountability. I think also that the there are times like even with and it has to be appropriated in your organization. So I think this is scalable in any size. We have a 53 or four staff members and 40, 45 LLA interns and then a church of thousands, and so I have to be careful where I say what I'm about to say. But there's parts of our organization that I'm submitted to, even though I'm the boss of. So, like sermon prep, we have a dozen of us that meet and I submit that sermon conversation to you guys and go hey, what do you think? How did Sunday go? Sunday after I preach, I go, hey, what did you hear? What do I need to change? Is anything any feedback for me? And I always get on to y'all when you're like, oh man, it was awesome, it was good, I wouldn't change a thing.
Speaker 5:That doesn't help me like don't tell me that I appreciate the flattery you can keep your job another week but don't don't just flatter, like give me some tweaks, tweakables, so like there's places where I submit, but I've told our lead team guys, if there's something, this is the place I dream the most candidly and I can be the most candid and I I've said like, hey, if there's stuff I'm saying, doing or frustrating you, I mean you've tell me, help me, don't leave me blind in this blind loyalty where you just don't say anything that will help me or help the organization. So I think employing systems of accountability is valuable. Having people that you run with that think in the direction you're going is valuable.
Speaker 5:And then the thing that you can only do yourself is you, you. The Bible tells us to humble ourselves, and I think one of the ways that we do that, as theological people, is stay in God's word and keep a prayer life.
Speaker 3:It will humble you, that's it.
Speaker 5:Because, honestly, it reminds you why we do this. I loved the Bible before I got into ministry, so I didn't get. I didn't read the Bible just to become a preacher. So I have to stay in the Word and love His Word and love my prayer closet, in spite of what I do for Him, and I think that keeps you humble as well.
Speaker 3:I don't know what you want to add to that. The last one he said was my answer.
Speaker 5:We can rewind. We can rewind, go ahead.
Speaker 4:We can rewind.
Speaker 3:Go ahead, but no, that's what I was going to say. Is man, when you catch yourself edgy and you're leading out of control, I'm a self-reflector and if I walk away from a conversation honestly man.
Speaker 5:Me and my wife we do ministry together. What a gift that is. It's a gift To the church man, but it makes for a unique set of challenges, unique dynamic industry and marriage yeah we.
Speaker 3:We sit across from each other in our office. We ride home together right in our car. Come on, we sleep next to each other in our bed.
Speaker 1:We eat across from each other for dinner it's like so it sounds like a kid's book.
Speaker 3:It does dr seuss that does so I, I caught myself the other day and I'm just, I'm confessing in front of my For dinner. It sounds like a kid's book. It does, dr Seuss that does. So I caught myself the other day and I'm confessing in front of my brothers. These guys on this panel, they're talking with us, man, they hold me accountable. So I caught myself in conversation with her. We're talking, we're dreaming, we're planning things, and I said a statement. But later, as I thought about it for the rest of the day, I got home and I went home I said babe, I'm sorry, I said the way, I said that to you. The intent behind it was this and I don't want ever, I never want you to feel like I'm coming at you or I'm just being. You know, I'm the boss, what I was saying earlier and this is where it came from. And we had a great conversation, it was beautiful, but I, the humility, has to be there and you have to. You gotta be teachable.
Speaker 4:You gotta be teachable.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that time with God, that quiet time with God. I had a message two, three weeks ago. I was just reading and I was catching up on something and I came across it was Ezekiel and it was talking about that heart that you mentioned earlier. But I went ahead and read, in 37, of just that vision that God had given Ezekiel. And I'm reading all the things that he was saying and, dude, it was hitting me like dude.
Speaker 5:I cried like a baby. Is that the passage where he calls out shepherds? He's calling out shepherds.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's tough. I kept reading the passage where he's, where he he says hey prophesy to these bones.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And then, for the moment, you, just when you said that a few minutes ago, pastor of, I'm confident, I'm confident and humbled, I was so humbled and in that moment I was so confident, man, you for real called me to do this. This is, yes, this is a vision for Ezekiel, but for me, as I'm looking at what was true then and what's going to be true forever, you're saying that to us today Prophesy to these bones. So it's those quiet times with the Lord where you and him get to just be and he's able to speak those things and those reminders into you. Hey, I called you for this, I assigned you this. Now your assignment can change, but continue, son, daughter, pointing people to me. That's why it's so important Anytime that you're stepping away from that and you're just reading for message prep, or you're just man, I'm just praying because this lady came up, or this guy came up to me at the end of service and you're not doing that on your own time. We're in trouble.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Because now I'm doing, doing everything out of my own strength, and that's not what he called us to do.
Speaker 2:That's good, you know. I appreciate that. That last, appreciate that, that last reflection you said there, even in you know you having that conversation getting humble before your wife, jess, and then Pastor Mike, when you were, I just again that's. That's one thing I love about you, pastor Mike, is you know, you're so you're, you're so influential but you really do see the value of having people in your life because we're not perfect and we have blind spots, and I was just personally reflecting and thinking that's probably one of the biggest telltale signs that you're kind of shifting. I think of it like a pendulum that you're. You want to keep it in the vein or, you know, going from authority to control. Is other people around you, especially those that are closer to you, who know you better than than others, right Kind of you know being mirrors to reflect and say, hey, your language is changing, your attitude, your disposition is changing, the fuse has gotten shorter, whatever it is.
Speaker 2:I think that maybe is a good barometer as well as you're leading, and I just think it speaks to that piece of you know, just me personally reflecting on churches that I've been a part of in the past that now are no longer in existence and they were built on a personality as opposed to the person of Jesus Christ. And just when, you know, when there was no accountability, there wasn't even fellowship, not just accountability, but they were lone wolf pastors. And then, looking back on it now, I think, oh, the demise of that church was inevitable because there was just no, there was no reflection. There was an echo chamber, for sure, but there was no mirrors to speak through that. And I just want to encourage anybody that is leading, whatever level you're leading at, just don't forsake that. Don't forsake the fact that the Lord will use his people to speak and call out those things, and it's not a rebuke.
Speaker 2:You even made this statement I believe it was at All Team when you said correction is not trauma. My God, we are just so averse to accountability, seriously, and we just like, oh, I'm hurt by what you said and now I have to get into therapy for it. It's like, really, because somebody said, hey, you're being rude to our guests, and now that hurt your feelings, and it's just the humility, the maturity, just the desire to grow. So, anyway, that's just. That was just something I was reflecting on as a both of you were ruminating on. Yeah.
Speaker 5:We live in a everybody gets a trophy culture Right and after 40 years of that you can't correct adults anymore. You can't. You can't help them. So Let me coach you on something real quick. You're doing a great job, brother. Oh man, you're the best of the best, but you know you're a Nazi Like you are terrible.
Speaker 4:I got to soften that.
Speaker 5:Would you consider a little less venom? We've got somebody in our church who wants cussing out Dream Teamers and when we brought correction, god offended at us and wanted to say this is my personality, it's who I am. It's like no, we're spirit-filled. Our personality is the Holy Ghost. I mean we're. Come on, you can't give me that language. You know I'm military. I just Tough. This is just the way I'm fashioned. No, oh God, can't change your military heart. I'm sorry.
Speaker 3:So you, fruit of the spirit, that's right, yeah, love, joy, peace, peace, kindness goodness, second gij, italian, second lieutenant healthy confrontation is care. Yeah, it's kind, yes, it is healthy conversation.
Speaker 5:I mean, we know that with our children, right, right and I would encourage, the first form of leadership you have is your own house, and so employ these things at home. Yeah, turn off screens, turn off outside voices and become the voice of your house again. Parents, please lead your children, get them off social media and off screens and just sit around the table and talk about character formation. I will say there's positional authority and then there's relational authority. There's lots of layers to authority. Right, there's adjectives that we could describe authority, yeah, but authority from God is humble. The authority that God anoints, let me say it like that. Okay, I think God puts positional authority.
Speaker 5:Scripture says in Romans 13,. All authorities that exist exist by God. So then you got to go. What does that even mean? Right, it means systems of authority, whether it's parents over children, pastors over parishioners there's a lot of letter P's, principles over pupils, presidents over people let's go. And so, anyway, those systems. That's the point that Paul's trying to make is, the authority exists in the earth because God's designed it, and those who resist that resist what God's created in authority. Right, the structures of authority. But I think just because authorities exist don't necessarily mean authorities are always anointed. So corrupt governments Hold up.
Speaker 3:Pastor Mike, please say that statement again. That's good.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I think. Just because authorities exist don't mean those authorities are anointed. Come on. So an abusive parent is still in charge, but he's not anointed. She's not anointed when she's abusing her children.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 5:And anointing breaks yokes of bondage. Anointing brings growth. Yes, sir, just because there's authority, you can have a principal who is a tyrant, who's in charge positionally but not effective because he's not anointed or she's not anointed, and I just think anointed authority is humble. Anointed authority thinks about the other first, not my position of power, like I understand. I have the top seat in the organization here and I surrender my decision making for my good and I say but it has to be for their good. That's humble.
Speaker 5:Yeah, like you know, the design of the building, the fundraising of a new church I mean I can easily do five, six services in a row because it it's just cheaper and easier, and but it wears out everybody on our team and I'll be the one to exhaust myself the longest if it makes it good for you. And then to raise all this money, take all this heat online to build a church for other people. I'm not even going to go to that campus. That's the crazy part. We're paying all this money in New York, tons of money, to revitalize a campus I don't even go to. I don't have a key to that building. I got to get nothing for it. It's all for them. That's the kind of authority God wants to blow his spirit on. Yeah, I keep thinking of this, this image.
Speaker 1:Earlier you said something and I I saw the same thing I think of like, like people in the Bible, like Moses, right he, Prince of Egypt. So he had this, you know, so he had this, you know luxurious life in the training and you know military training, all this stuff, and then he lives in the desert shepherding, Like he was a tough dude, Like he could have survived in the desert, in the wilderness, by himself and he would have been fine. But God gave him people. And then the people, the people and the interaction between the people of Israel is the story that has shaped our teachings and a lot of what we not just Moses himself, but his interactions with God and his interactions with the people.
Speaker 1:And so, as authority figures, we might be tough and rough and we could do it our own way and we will figure it out. We could preach 10 services in a row, but the fact that you're thinking about the people, that that's where humility comes in, where our authority is not about what we can do because we might be able to do it, but it's what has God called us to do for the people, and so it's. It always goes back to that, and so I I think that's yeah.
Speaker 5:We're building a church that we won't have an office in Elmer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean that's crazy.
Speaker 5:I had to ask our CFO this week. I was like, how do I get in that building? Now that we're locking it up, he goes. We'll have to get you a key. I don't even know the code to the lock on the gate. I didn't know it until this week, because it's not for me.
Speaker 4:It's not my place.
Speaker 5:I'm not putting'd already done it, but they bolted a metal sheet for a plaque that says Dedicated by Reverend Dr Mike Burnett at LifePoint Church in Clarksville, and internally I'm going. I don't want my name on that thing, but for them it was the highest honor in the world they could give me. And so, yeah, I started to say humble leadership, god can breathe on it. Anoint appointment of authority. And I think it's true in national politics, I think it's true in business ownership, I think it's true in parenting, like I think we've confused what's good for my kids versus what do my kids say is good, because they don't know what's good for them.
Speaker 4:They're four, they're three and four.
Speaker 5:So you have to lead in a way that's good for them, not good to them, and the same is true in church leadership and whatever other authority you mentioned earlier about humility and leadership and a willingness to be just open to other people and accountable.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and one of the one of the unfortunate reactions, or like one of the unfortunate reflections of people when someone has a moral failure, is the person who failed often has isolated himself or herself, away from people who care for them. So just recently a good friend of mine had a. It just came out that he'd been having an affair and those around him would say he was isolating, pulling away. The way he talked it was different. Uh, this was a pastor. And one of his best friends said you know, I've noticed this sexual immorality had gone on for a couple of years. And he said I've noticed in the last few years he doesn't tell me what the Lord's saying to him anymore.
Speaker 5:It's just all about the grind and building, building, building, building. More campuses, more stuff, more growth. And it wasn't like man, the Lord and God is speaking to me. Wow, honestly, it's one of the reasons I love our staff chapel, because I feel like I want God to be fresh on me, for me and for us as leaders, because y'all are leading with me and we're leading together. And God, what are you saying to us? Not just what are you saying to the church, but what are you saying to?
Speaker 5:us, yeah and those very often after a fall, we can look back and part of the part of the it's like an enemy of a car wreck, right like analyzing a car wreck, like what led to this yes, and isolation from accountability is a major red flag and humility and a willingness to be teachable and correctable. Gerald brooks asked deon sanders, I think it was he said deon got saved he just asked him.
Speaker 5:They some, some people had asked pastor gerald, would you please mentor deon sanders? He's new to christianity. He's getting asked all over the place to preach. You know, it's like a. It's like Denzel Washington he got saved and then all of a sudden he's like the prophet of America.
Speaker 5:So, give the guy some time to season. And Deion comes to meet with Gerald Brooks in Plano, texas, in his office and Deion is just sharing his testimony and Gerald's like that's great. I have one question for you. Who has the right to tell you no? And Dion, world famous, I mean yeah, top guy. Yeah.
Speaker 4:He goes, what are you talking?
Speaker 5:about. He said who in your life has the right to tell you no, because if I'm going to mentor you, I need to know who to call when you start acting foolish because you won't listen to me, you don't know me, but who has the right to?
Speaker 4:tell you no.
Speaker 5:Yeah. And he said if nobody has the right to tell you no, I don't want to help you, I can't wow so I just think that that willingness to be teachable, correctable, humble, and it, it looks different.
Speaker 5:I mean, there's there's correction, there's submission, there's mutual submission, there's hey, help me, you know, there's a lot of different ways to show humility and teachability. But yeah, and it doesn't matter what you're leading, I think anointed leaders are humble leaders and that means God can breathe on it, because God gives grace to the humble. Grace is the power of God. Humble I would get the humble.
Speaker 5:My brother loves to say huge instead of huge I like to say humble instead of humble and humility, oh God. So, like my brother, brad, and I pick on Kenny for this We'll say things like hamburger or happy birthday.
Speaker 4:Like we just take the H off. All kinds of words.
Speaker 5:Happy birthday. Happy birthday, hey man Instead of hey. Anyway, hilarious, but this has been. I mean, this is a great conversation piece. I think it's super valuable. We keep digressing into dumb stuff. I love it. I think we're at like $15, $20.
Speaker 3:I can't wait to see the blooper reel of where the count is tallying up bing bing that's right, you can delete them real quick well, I'm gonna pay.
Speaker 1:I just know I will have vastly underpaid, that's all right no, this, this, this conversation, is valuable and we just pray that this is inspiring, motivational for for those of you that are listening and watching, and really that you know it's one thing that we're saying, but, like we always say, you know, take it to the lord, pray and and ask god to help you identify these areas in your life where where you have to be more humble and and some areas that we need to submit to the Lord. And, like we've said here, who's speaking into our life? I think that's an important one. If you're a leader at any capacity, who has the right to tell you know who can speak into your, your situations, and so hey, can I just add one more thought?
Speaker 5:here, as we're wrapping up, this is a preacher talk. Before I close, just one more thing before the keyboard guy comes home. Final thoughts here. Can I just everybody? I think everybody's a leader at some level. At the core level, you got to lead yourself. You're the hardest one to lead. Anyway, they say what did they say? The hardest machine at the gym is the door? Yeah, like, just getting to lead yourself it's the hardest right, but everybody's a leader of somebody. I mean there's, there's I can't think of anybody that has no one person looking to them as an influencer even at the base level, like you're cooler than me, you got nicer shoes than me.
Speaker 5:Like you're a leader, you have influence. Leadership is influence. But currently this is going to maybe sound a little needy for me and I'm not saying it for me because I don't feel a pressure to say this for me but we are in a context currently where, to 60 second soundbites of leaders at all kinds of organizations political, social, religious influence I can't even believe it. Like you can now. Influence used to be something you had to earn. Now influence is a title you can give yourself, right. So it's just a crazy context that we live in now.
Speaker 5:But in the process of that, we have also familiarized ourselves with leaders based on their content and our likability to their content. So then associations get all muddy and if you like a thing or like a group or whatever we kind of talked about that earlier I just want to ask the vast majority of us that are listening to this that you are a leader and you work with leaders, be gracious to your leaders, mm-hmm. That you are a leader and you work with leaders, be gracious to your leaders. Just be gracious and merciful. I was reading in preparation for Sunday's message on Thyatira.
Speaker 2:Come on.
Speaker 5:Which a girl I went to high school with too, by the way.
Speaker 4:She's real, southern Real.
Speaker 5:Southern. I just like that name.
Speaker 4:I think it should be somebody's name.
Speaker 3:She says stuff like Latin right.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 5:Bless your heart. So you know, jezebel is this named character in this letter and there's attributes of Jezebel's characteristics from First King's story of Jezebel and.
Speaker 5:Ahab and Elijah, and there's a lot written on the Jezebel spirit, the Jezebel personality, but one of the things that a Jezebel controlling, manipulative person says is law for you and grace for me. So that temperament has a ton of criticisms against anybody else and they will fire off critique on whoever. But then when you turn around and say, yeah, but what about the log in your own eye? You know what I'm a work in progress. God's working on me. I know I'm not perfect, but Wow. So this attitude that I can have, condemnation like law and criticism were a critical culture for you, but I demand grace for me. It's part of the Jezebel temperament and I just want to encourage everybody Leaders part of the reason leaders are leaders is they do things that nobody else is doing in the organization, and the word in the New Testament for the pastor, the overseer, is presbyteros.
Speaker 5:It means to oversee and, like I'll just say, in our world, even in this room, I mean you guys lead at high levels here, your campus pastor, overseas, central discipleship and exec team member.
Speaker 5:But there's still stuff that I know that you don't know in our organization things about people or decisions and how things, or the history of something Like why did we decide this 15 years ago? Like, there's just stuff that I know, and it's not secret, it's just stuff I know. And sometimes we just get so familiar with the soundbites of a leader we don't give them any grace to just know stuff we don't know. Stephanie will say sometimes, when political things come out like a war or whatever, stephanie will go I'm telling you, you know, joe Biden makes a decision about Afghanistan, or president Trump makes a decision about, you know, ukraine, or dropping bombs in Iran, and she, you know, it's easy to just watch a two minute clip on social media about a leader's decision and then just make a decision about what I think about it. And she will say they just know things we don't know.
Speaker 5:And Stephanie will often remind me, cause I got tons of correct political opinions about politicians and politics and all that stuff she's just quick to remind me, mike in the white house and in Congress and they just know stuff we don't know. Cut them some slack. And I just want to encourage everybody to just remember leading is hard. Leading is a special anointing, like Romans 12 calls leadership a gift of the Holy Spirit, and no matter what level of leadership is the people below you. It's easy to criticize when they're not in your seat and it's just easy to fire shots when people are just seeing outcomes of your decisions but they don't know the process by which decisions were made and the layers of things that you know. So if you don't like being criticized as a leader, let's just choose not to be critical of other leaders. That's good. Hold them accountable, pray for them, watch with maybe sometimes a little hmm, that's interesting, yeah, and at the end of the day, lead you just lead you first and better.
Speaker 5:But I think we're just in a day where being a leader's hard and, and part of it is because we're kind of like in this inundation of criticism of leaders and it sounds a little self-serving. I'm not saying it for us, cause I think in general, the folks at Lightpoint are really great. It gives a lot of trust and confidence and there's good decision-making and a great team. But I think outside of here, whether it's public figures, politicians, or maybe it's your boss or whatever, just be considerate of the fact that leading is tough and leaders know things that everybody else doesn't know or has to make decisions without consensus, and just give some slack. And don't forget what Jesus said If you give mercy, you'll receive mercy. If you give grace, you'll get grace. It'll be given. As you give, it'll be given back to you. Good measure pressed down, shaken together and running over Run over Run if.
Speaker 1:So just be mindful of that on behalf of leaders that are under under pressure.
Speaker 5:Yeah, no, under pressure, I love it, I love it, I love it.
Speaker 1:I love it. Hey, thanks again for being part of this podcast. Pastor Jare, pastor Mike, it's always awesome to have you guys here and and again Willie get to do this Come on.
Speaker 2:I'm excited Pastor Mike with us.
Speaker 5:Pastor, willie Pastor, may with us Pastor.
Speaker 2:May with us.
Speaker 1:Pastor Mike's.
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