The Worship and Leadership Podcast
Real conversations on worship, leadership, and living a faith-filled life beyond the platform. Hosted by leaders from LifePoint Church, this podcast is here to inspire, equip, and challenge you—whether you’re leading in ministry, in the marketplace, or just learning to lead yourself well.
The Worship and Leadership Podcast
Rebuilding Trust After Leadership Fails
Trust isn’t rebuilt by force of will or a perfect apology tour; it’s rebuilt when we start where Isaiah did—seeing that God is still on the throne even when leaders fall. We open up about church hurt, disappointment, and the quiet anger many carry toward God, then chart a hopeful path forward built on clarity, boundaries, and honest community. Along the way, we break down the difference between honor, respect, and trust, and why confusing them keeps us stuck. You’ll learn the “pace of grace,” practical ways to reenter community after disappointment, and how accountability and safeguards protect both people and the mission. And we don’t dodge the hard stuff: we name real wounds, honor the complexity of trauma, and keep pointing back to the steady goodness of God.
By the end, you’ll have language to evaluate influence, tools to set healthy boundaries, and a way to begin rebuilding trust with God first so you can wisely trust people again. If you’re ready for healing that’s honest, patient, and rooted in Scripture, press play and walk with us. If this resonates, subscribe, share it with a friend who needs hope, and leave a review with one insight you’re taking into your week.
What's going on, everyone, and welcome to the Worship and Leadership Podcast. My name is Elmer Cunnyz Jr. And like always, the one and only Willie C. Simpson the second. Yo, what is going on?
SPEAKER_03:Excited to be here with y'all today.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Hey, I'm glad to be here. Um the last podcast that we recorded, I really felt led by the Holy Spirit. Like Emily needed to be on it. So I'm like, all right, I'll just I'll I'll go, you know, I'll go direct. And that was behind the scenes. And then last week we were getting ready to record again, and I I felt sick and I wasn't able to be here. And so it was also fall break. And so um, as much as we attempted to record something, um, we weren't able to.
SPEAKER_03:No, you had you had you had conjunctivitis, man. Conjunctive. You you know, you you're conjunctivist.
SPEAKER_01:It was some itis.
SPEAKER_03:It was some kind of itis. Some itis. Yeah, it was inflamed. So thank God you're back, man.
SPEAKER_01:Thank God, yeah, yes. Inflammation's gone. But um, but I am glad to be here and just to get back to the nitty-gritty, yeah, and uh and not get in trouble. So here we go. And uh today's podcast, I I love it. And again, just the way the Holy Spirit works. We just finished our letters to the church. Yeah, you know, we're doing it, uh it was sermons, Revelation chapter two and three. That's right. And now we're about to actually start a new series beginning this Sunday in the book of Nehemiah. Let's go. And uh, you know, Nehemiah is known for rebuilding the walls to the city.
SPEAKER_03:That's exactly right. He's also known for having strong character and resolve. He showed uh bravery and and courage and a resoluteness in in the face of really daunting and intimidating odds. You know what I mean? So he it was first of all, it's a huge project. Yep. He's got a short timeline, and then there are people opposed to it, people that were supposed to be on his side. And they're not they're not just opposed, they're like, no, we're we're actively gonna stop this from happening, even if we got to take your life. So it's like, man, what do you do?
SPEAKER_01:So he's like, he's like one hand building, the other hand, he has his weapon on the side.
SPEAKER_03:You know what I'm saying? Laying cement, laying bricks, and then you know, so he got the shiv ready to ventilate somebody's go.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, Nehemiah. The how the wall of Nehemiah. Building and breaking. Come into a feature. It's incredible how this lines up because today we're talking about rebuilding trust when leadership fails. Yeah. And and so we're talking about rebuilding. Yeah. And so, in order to talk about rebuilding, I I want us to talk about what that looks like in our personal lives. So, not just our stories, but what building trust means, you know, down to the practical. Yeah. Because I I I said this before we started recording, just as I was preparing for the podcast today, I started thinking how we give trust away so easily. I just, you know, going back, I'm like, how many presidents have I been alive for? And I just think back to, you know, I think Bill Clinton was the first, like when I was a kid, I think I think, or or George Bush. I was like George Bush Sr. Yeah, that was and then and then just but but going through even politics, right? Because that's one of the biggest things, who's the president, all that all the time. Right. And and how even the political scene has changed based on the internet, based on the influence of the entertainment industry. Yes. I'm not gonna say the media industry, the entertainment industry, right? And so people that used to just purely entertain, yes, these are people that are the they're making a living acting like other people. Yeah, come on now. It's not even who they are, right? They're acting like other people, they're getting in persona into other characters to to present this fic, you know, fictional characters, right? And so it went from people that they were purely entertainment to now influencing our our decisions, our values, our beliefs. And so just and you saw it more as I as I got into college years and all that, you started hearing more celebrities, and nowadays it's like it's almost like politics, politics, and entertainment kind of blend. Absolutely, you know, and then social media, yes, and so it's almost like our trust has been given away to people that we like. We don't even know who they are, we don't even know their character, we don't even know how they treat their their spouses, their children, you know, uh how they treat their dog. Like we have no idea because social media has become this false, you know, window that we're looking at people's lives through. And if I like them, yeah, I'm gonna follow, I'm gonna accept what they have to say.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely. Yeah, I'm I'm glad you you teased it out because I remember when we had Pastor Mike on, and I think Dr. Tim was on, and when we when they were talking about leadership, you know, whether it's toxic or it's upbuilding, uh, it was Pastor Mike and Pastor Dre. And and he he talked that was a really sort of cool picture when he talked about the the jester, right? Center of attention, the entertainer. Yep. I'll all eyes are on the on the jester, but he's there to point to the king. And he says, Man, we've given away our allegiance to the jester and not the king. And that's what's happening in society. I would even include in that, you know, athletes as well. Like, hey, well, you you play, you play a kid's game. You you know, you bat a ball around, you toss a ball, you bounce a ball, you run fast, and and you're giving commentary commentary on public policy with no qualifications. No, nobody's vetting you at what you believe, and again, character, quality, knowledge, experience, and we're giving you this platform, and then we're saying to ourselves what this person is saying, this amateur is saying, is more authoritative in my mind than the people who are actually elected and paid to do the job. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Man, it's an interesting, fascinating sort of and when those people on those platforms fail us, like we're like, oh, it's because of something else. Right. We don't even hold them accountable to their mistakes. Absolutely. Right. But then there's the flip side. Sure. So we're talking about when leaders fail us, and so this is all context because it's this is a a Christian podcast. People probably like, oh, they're gonna talk about the you know, pastors in the church. We we will, we can talk about that personal experiences. I've been in ministry for over 20 years. Yeah, I've failed people, yeah. I've clearly failed people to like the point where about 10 years ago, I was still reaching out to people and hey, I'm so sorry for mistakes for how I led, how what I said, and and so I think it's very true in ministry. We do fail. And so yeah, we do want to talk about that. But then there's those again, the people that speak into our lives, right? And so this is where I I think this is, and you can help me. I don't want to just kind of go down this road without because I can go forever. Yeah, but I think there's honor, yes, respect, and trust.
SPEAKER_04:Yep.
SPEAKER_01:Honor, respect, and trust. Yes, there's people that are close to our lives. I've told a lot of young people that I've had the opportunity to mentor that it's crazy how much influence, it's crazy how much trust we give to people that don't even know us or don't even care about us. Yeah, you think about these entertainers, yes, in social media and influencers, they don't know us, right? They don't know me only because I like their stuff doesn't mean that they're like, oh, I wonder what Elmer's doing. Yeah, I wonder what you know, Pastor William, Pastor Elmer talking about on the podcast today. They don't listen to our podcast, you know. Yeah, and but but we're so caught up on what what you know what they like this, what would they say, what are they worrying, what are they doing, you know, we want to follow their example, and so we're giving so much of ourselves away to people that we don't know, we don't know their character, we don't know their integrity, all these things. Yeah, and so we're confusing honor with with entertainment.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, no, that's good. And to you, I like how you said that as you were really talking through and we freely give this trust away. I think of it like currency. It's like money, right? It's currency that we're spending and giving it to people with who have no vested interest in us and who who who really may be misleading us, right? If we get granular with it. And so I do think it's kind of important to define these terms. And Pastor Mike did a great job. You know, you were part of the the preaching team for the Forgotten Virtue uh series, and you know, he talked about honor, he talked about trust, he talked about respect. And I like to think of trust as it's currency that's given freely. Like you freely trust people, and trust is easily given, and it's it's hard to win back. It's like a clay pot, you know, when you you you bet you break it and smash it into pieces, you you can put it back together, but it'll never look the same. And and it and that's a slow process. So you gotta be wise about who you entrust, like the leadership of your life to. And I I look at respect as something that is earned, you know, it's something that is mutual as well. And I think of respect as having sort of an emotional component to it. Respect can, you know, it can be high or low based on someone how they act, how they speak, how they behave. Honor though. Honor is action and honor is shown. And so you may see someone and say they are not respectable. They're not like the qualities about them are not respectable. I don't want to emulate that, but I can still show honor. I can still honor them and I can still behave towards them in a way that is still redeeming and dignifying who they are as a person. I can disagree with them the vehemently even, but I can show honor. And and I was, you know, Emma, you and I we were talking right before the podcast, and I it kind of puts in my mind the flavor uh that Jesus teaches on the golden rule. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. And you can replace their word do with honor. Honor others as you would have them honor you. Yeah. Hey, you know, I mean, like I'm not the most respectful person or respectable person all of the time. I have flaws, I have issues, but I would I would hope that somebody would still show honor to me because I'd want to show honor to them.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's like with our kids. Right. Like we're not perfect parents, we're not perfect dads. And I know there's been times where I probably could have responded or even reacted differently or not reacted, right? Right. But my kids still honor me. Yes. And and that's something that is taught. Yeah. And again, I think we've allowed culture, society to teach us, hey, this is honor. But it's not, it's a lot of it is there's the pleasure, the things that move us. I I think about you you brought up athletes. I think about how how much respect and how much you know just is given to them. That's why they're able to earn so much money. Yeah, it's not because they're playing sports any different than they did back in the days. That's a good point. It's it's because the scene has changed, the audience has changed, it's gotten so much broader, and there's a lot more money, right? And so they're able to earn more.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And so, you know, but everyone's cool with them. They might not even like the team, right? Like, I you know, I'll I'll bring up names like like I never liked LeBron James. Okay. I'm a I'm a diehard Kobe Bryant. Like, you know, I'm a loyal Lakers fan. Okay. That's that's been me since I was a kid. All right. And then, you know, and the Dodgers are about are about to win the World Series. Let's go, Jimmy. Let's go. And and so I I've I've always loved it. And so never been a fan of LeBron James for various reasons, which I don't need to share.
SPEAKER_04:Sure.
SPEAKER_01:But then he becomes a Lakers, yeah. And so now I'm in turmoil, like, okay, the guy that I never really liked, yeah, is now on my team. Or at least I say my team, but yeah, just because they represent my city, right? But again, now the Lakers ownership, they don't know me. But so now I might not like him for whatever reasons, but you know, because he plays for the Lakers, all right, I'm gonna I'm gonna like LeBron James. But then he does something to a fan or to someone, right? And just because now you've seen his how he responds to people like ignoring kids that want autographs. Yeah, I'm not saying that's what he's done, I'm just saying this is an example. Yeah, and now because we're seeing their character or how they're reacting to certain things, now we're gonna judge them. Yeah, and now it's gonna shape what we think. So we we start backwards, we give them all of us, all of our attention, even our money. And then until they let us down, then we're like, oh, let me let me second, let me second guess this. Let me think about this.
SPEAKER_04:That's good, man.
SPEAKER_01:We don't date like that. No, we don't. Imagine if you dated that way. Yeah, you got married, and you know, yeah, I see what you're saying.
SPEAKER_03:Whoa, well, wait a minute, hold on now. Well, yeah, well, you're right. You you would think in a a rational person wouldn't date like that.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, that's right. Rational.
SPEAKER_03:We are pastors, so we have pastored people through decisions like that and said, You don't you don't put the cart way before the horse. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01:But we but we do that in everything else, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:That's true. That's a good point.
SPEAKER_01:And so then because of that, the the whole trust is is it's it's hard because we we're giving trust away like nothing. And so then when leaders that are actually people that speak into our lives and that are in our lives, yeah, are influential and they can actually help us like, hey, you need to read more, you the Bible more, you need to spend more time with Jesus. And then people that want to build us up and lead us towards the truth, the word of God, when they let us down or they do something that we don't like, all of a sudden we're punishing them the same way we we we would with an athlete. That's and we put them on the same level, like a politician. Yeah, when actually honor is different because there should be another level of honor. Yeah, you know, and so I don't know. I'm just yeah.
SPEAKER_03:No, that's good. I mean, listen, what you're saying is very countercultural, and what you're saying goes against most people's sensitivities because to your point, we're conflating honor and respect. I feel respectful towards you, therefore I will honor you. Um when I feel unrespectful towards you, I will dishonor you. We're we're conflating the two and we're intertwining them when they really are mutually exclusive. Again, you can have a low level of respect for someone. Again, there are people out there, you know, you've worked with a boss or with a coworker, or you've had a neighbor or a classmate or a teacher or a coach or a leader or a friend that you don't respect. Like, man, I'm not gonna emulate your values, they are all messed up, the way that you act, the way you treat those, and the way you hey, that's not respectful at all. But I can honor you. I can still honor you. Why? Because honor speaks to who you are as an identity, you are an image bearer of God. So you're worthy of honor, you're worthy of dignity because of that fact right there.
SPEAKER_01:And that's where another word comes in, love. Yes. Because as children of God, as you know, we're we're we follow the example of Jesus. Right to love one another. Like what's the greatest commandment? Love the Lord your God, right? But then love one another.
SPEAKER_03:He says just like it, yeah. He says just like it. Yeah, no, no, that's a great point. So, you know, thinking through, you know, when leadership does fail us, it's almost like they're and again, I mean, you know, we've been doing this for you know a while, and people come to our church and they come with what they they label as church hurt, or they come almost sort of like on the backside of crisis, right? You can tell they're the what's the word, they're shell-shocked, like, man, you know, my last church, no, this happened, the leader fell, and for for any reason, we don't have to go down the laundry list, but there is a sense that they feel betrayed, they feel hurt, and they and and it's really so we have to deal with that. It's true. And if you're not careful, you will begin to overlay the fallenness of leaders with the goodness of God. You'll overlay it on that. You'll say, Man, you know, it's almost like when a person has written a book or preached a bunch of different sermons or gave given a bunch of great talks, and then there's scandal, and then you say, Well, what about everything that they said or everything that they put out? Well, it don't necessarily validate that. Like truth is truth. So then we have to, but then it makes them, well, okay, well, man, does this mean God is untrustworthy? Because this is a man of God, a woman of God, a spiritual leader.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And that's where we have to be able to pull back and allow wisdom to say, I am not going to hold God hostage for the actions of his children. You know, Pastor Mike would say that. I just think it's a beautiful sentiment. And so, uh, which is thinking through scripture and in the book of Isaiah, in the book of Isaiah, chapter six, there is an interesting opening to this chapter. Yeah. And this is the the words of Isaiah. He's a vision of the Lord. He says, In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne high and lifted up. The train of his robe filled the temple. So, some context real quick. King Uzziah was he was a former king of Israel, and you can read more about him in 2 Chronicles chapters 26, chapter 26. He starts out good. He's honoring God, he's building temples, he's tearing down the sites of pagan worship, he does all these things. And then he he trips up, he messes up by offering strange fire before the Lord. He he enters into the temple, which is only for the Levites. It's like, and it's clear from Leviticus, hey, this is for the Levites. I don't care if you're you're you're a pauper or your prince or your world, it doesn't matter. This is for the Levites, for the priest. And the priest, they check him on it. And the Bible says, while he's holding the fire in his hand to put on the he breaks out in leprosy. And they immediately kick him out. Because they're like, You unclean, man, you're gonna get us all wiped out of here. So they put him out, and it says that he has to live the days basically like in a parsonage in the king's quarters, you know, and his son rises up. So he starts out well and it but he ends up failing. And Isaiah, you know, he's caught the royal prophet because he's he he had one of the longest tenures under kings and the other prophet. And here is in chapter six, he's like, Man, you know, Uzziah was one of the good ones, and he still messed up. And I love how it begins. It says, in the year that King Uzziah died, Isaiah has a vision of the Lord, and it says he sees him on the throne. It says high and lifted up, and the train of his robe fills the temple. And what there's here's so here's a special spiritual principle. Okay? Just because leadership fails, it doesn't dethrone the Lord. It doesn't knock God down from his perch. God is still good, God is still faithful, God look, God is still trustworthy, he's still holy, he is still rightful, uh righteous, he won't mislead you, he won't betray you, he won't break your heart, he won't deceive you. And that is what Isaiah needs to see first. Oh, God, you're still in control. This right here feels out of control. I wasn't expecting this. This didn't take God by surprise. He's not wringing his hands in heaven. And so it's important because human leaders will fail us. They will because they're human. And we must remember that God is the ultimate leader. He's the one who leads our lives and drives the ship.
SPEAKER_01:And he's the one who places leadership. Yeah. And that's where, you know, again, it's difficult because if we don't honor leaders, or we don't even honor the word of God, yeah, it's hard for us to actually be like, all right, God, you've placed them there. Let me pray for my leader. Yes. Like there might be times that you're at conflict with people that are in leadership at work in your church, wherever it is. But, you know, again, as believers, we want to pray about everything. We don't want to be anxious and take everything into, you know, how can I take control of this? Right. No, the Bible says, you know, pray about everything. That's right. And and ask God, Lord, what touch the heart. Yeah. You know, and and sometimes a lot of times when I've had conflict with leaders in my life where I'm like, man, like this is gonna be rough, this is gonna be hard. I've I've learned, man, there's things in their own life that they're dealing with. I I think of of David, like you know, King David. Yeah, and he had sin. Yeah, and again, the life of David is real really uh vivid in scripture. We see you know from when he was young to much older and his whole family and everything. And he was anointed, yeah. And it it was still several years before he became king. And when he became king and and failed, he was still king, he was still placed in that authority. When there's other others in the scripture where because of their decisions or their sin, like God took care of them immediately. He did, yeah. You know, but but David had a repented heart and God kept him in position, but there were consequences that he had to deal with in family, but but God, you know, kept him where he was for a reason. Yeah, and there are people in leadership that will fail, and and you'll feel like it's not fair for them to still continue operating in their gifts. And there are things in in our context of ministry, there are things that will immediately disqualify you from from still serving at certain capacities because number one, sin's not permissible. We're not gonna be like, all right, hey, live this way, and then you know, we're living a whole other way, right? Like a double life, right? Yeah, yeah. And and then and there's decisions or things that we might say that we're here to lead people to become fully devoted to followers of Jesus, right? That's right. And so if we're saying one thing and and and living a whole other thing, right, it's it's gonna get messy. It will, yeah. And so, so we're we're gonna be held to standard of you know, we're gonna we have to live the way what what we speak. That's right. And so we tell a lot of people on our staff, like, hey, our lives are open books. Yeah, yeah, you know, as much as you want to make your life private, right, you know, protect your family, all this stuff, but you know, everything we do, people are watching. Absolutely, and especially nowadays, it's like even more. They want to know, like, what's this Jesus thing about? Yeah, you know, what does it mean to be a Christian? Right. And so they're hearing all these voices, they're watching several videos online, listening to all these podcasts, you know, but they wanna they want a first hand, you know, point of view on like, all right, what is it to be a Christian? Let me go follow Willie for a day. And yeah, what is it?
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely, yeah. And to your point, what's the impression of Jesus that that they're going to you know get from that? And so again, you had asked the question earlier, you know, Pastor Yommer, really thinking through practically what does it look like, you know, to rebuild trust? What does that look like? And there's a book that I just finished reading by uh Pastor Kevin Miller, he's a really good friend of Pastor Mike's, and he was a pastor here locally, and he he's uh he's moved and and Loris is doing awesome things through through his church and his ministry. And he wrote a book, it's called Run. It's a very short book. And and listen, if if you're a person struggling with temptation, buy this book right now. It's on Amazon, it's called Run by Kevin Miller. And he he he talks about you know how to flee temptation, you run from, you run to, and you run with. And then he closes the book by using a really beautiful phrase. He says the pace of grace. And I just want to say if you are in a season now of rebuilding trust, and I'm gonna say this whether you are be rebuilding trust in others because you've been hurt, or if you are rebuilding trust because you've hurt someone, give yourself grace. Run at the pace of grace. This will take time. This will take time. I've heard it said that trust is given in buckets and it's gone back in drops. So sometimes the frustration can come in that the timeline is longer than you'd like it to be. Right? And you're just saying, Man, I why why am I not over this yet? Or how how come the relationship's not reconciled, or how come there's not full peace restored, or full trust? You have to give it time and run at the pace of grace. And so that what does that look like that's holding God's hand every single day and say, Lord, you you lead me moment by moment, decision by decision.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, when when people hurt us, they hurt us. Yes. And and that is real pain, that is real letdown, disappointment. Those are real emotions, right? And and and there are a lot of consequences when leaders fail because it impacts not just the person, it's their family and the people that are really you know inspired by them and encouraged by them. And you know, and so it is a lot of pain. I guess what I'm trying to say, just with everything that we're we're starting this podcast with, is that as you might be going through something right now, already like dealing with some type of hurt, and and like how do I, like you said, kind of reconcile, or even how can I step into a place where I can trust certain type of leadership again, you know? But then what I what I'm trying to address is like for us to evaluate where we're putting our trust, honor, respect, our love, all these things, because that's important for us to evaluate where we're spending ourselves and where we're investing our hearts, our minds, our ears. Yeah, the Bible says that our eyes are the the gates, the gates, like windows, yeah. And so, like what you see, what you hear, all of that's important. And so I just want before anything, you know, just who are you giving yourself away to when it comes to trust? Yeah, because and I I say all of that because they will let you down. They will at some some at some level, it could be from like, man, I sent them an email and they didn't reply. Yeah, or it could be like their life just falls apart and it really messes you up because you're like, Man, I really believe they had it together. Yeah, you know, but again, we don't know everything going on in people's lives and we don't know all the the details. And I think over the last several years, we've seen a lot of public media of like pastors and preachers and you know, documentaries on Netflix and all these different things of church scandals, and you know, even in politics, I think doesn't surprise us anymore. Like that that's been that part of the the the playing ground for a long time. They have to be scandalous, like commercials, right? Yeah, and we're we're watching some show and they had commercials from another state, some governor, and I'm like, man, they put that on TV, right? Yeah, I'm like, that's that's cold, you know. But you expect that in that space, but not in church world, that's very true, not in ministry. And so, you know, we we look up to a lot of people, there's a lot of people we've looked up to over the years, and all of a sudden now there's there's hit things that are coming up from their past, yes, and it it breaks your heart, yeah. And uh because it it has removed their their authority and their position at this this moment in time, you know, when you would think of them as spiritual fathers, now they're like, man, there's a lot of yeah, uncertainty. Yeah, right. But like you said, there's God's still good. Yeah, he's still good, God's still good, God's still moving in the church, God's still raising up other leaders. And so, as God is bringing other influences and other leaders into your sphere, just check your heart, you know, and ask God, you know, where do where do I invest myself, pour myself out?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that that's good, man. You made me think through the book, and I'm currently rereading Boundaries by Dr. Henry Cloud, and he does a beautiful job in defining what boundaries are. You know, we tend to think of a boundary as a wall. And he says the the issue with that is that nothing can get in and nothing can get out. So things that need to get in can't get in, and things that need to get out can't get out. But he says, think of a boundary like a fence, and fences have gates. So the fence is still intact, but I have an outlet, an inlet. So I can let bad out, like distrust, betrayal, lies, deception, hurt. I can let those out. And I can let in healing and redemption. And and so that would be another practical thing, just really tying in what you just said, Pastor Yommer, like thinking through we are just such a microwave, air fryer society when we're just quick to give this away. And if you you know you know what I like about a fence, I mean, I think about old picket fence or like you know, post oak fence. I mean, it's still up and it's still protective, but I can see through it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And so some of you when you are rebuilding trust, especially in leadership, it's okay to slow, let me just the pace of grace, like to just slow walk. Jesus says you'll know them by their fruit. And so some we I think we do ourselves a kindness when we become fruit inspectors, which takes time. Hey, I'm you know, I'm gonna hear you out, I'm gonna listen, I'm going to observe, but I'm gonna inspect the fruit. I'm gonna look at your life, I'm gonna look at your mannerism, like you were talking earlier, like, you know, how are you when you are on high days, how are you on hard days, you know, when you are literally why when you're hungry, when you have a headache, you know, when you're frustrated, when you're angry, when you're joyful, if you know, how would your family talk through you, those that you work with and serve with closely, those that are on your teams, you know, the people, like again, from a ministry context, the members of your church, how would they speak of you? And that takes time, and you're just opening and closing that gate. You're keeping the fence up, but you're just opening and closing the gate. And over time, you're still just flexing the muscle of trust. It's almost like when you've had an injury, right? Like a bruise or dislocation or something, and your arm's been in a cast and it's been immobilized for some time, and they say, Okay, now we're gonna stretch it out. This is gonna hurt. Ah, okay. But it's good for you because we got the blood flowing. And so this again allows you to methodically and slowly do this because again, the Lord gifts us the body. That's the thing. So we can't retreat, right? Because then you become an orphan.
SPEAKER_01:And there's people that do that. They're like they do that. Like, I saw some posts, I think this morning, and people were saying, Well, that's why you don't need to go to church. Oh, really? And it's like, you know, you you can have your own relationship with God and not go to church. And because there's distrust with church leaders. Oh, that was the post. The post was about distrust. Just just I I think the post was about this whole force frank oh Frank Forrest, force frank.
SPEAKER_02:Uh force frank. Sorry. I'm his biggest fans.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, you are. And and that whole thing about like, you know, he him not going to the Dove Awards, even though he won like a bunch. Right. And he said, you know, he doesn't need a trophy, you know, Jesus enough. I I don't know, I didn't really dive into it, but right. So then people just you are using that. I guess he had some controversy with Jelly Roll or something.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, there was something, yeah, there was a back and forth between them, and because he, you know, force Frank, you know, essentially was saying that hey, listen, I you know, God gave me the ability to do this. I'm creating it for him, so why would I get the award? It's for him. And so he's like, I'm not gonna go back. He wasn't protesting, he was just convicted, like, I'm not gonna go. Okay, man, I honor your conviction. You know, and well, Jelly Roe, he is attending these awards and he is being honored. And he's like, Hey man, there's nothing wrong with me doing this. I'm giving go to God on the platform.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And so, but to your point, they reconciled that.
SPEAKER_01:They reconciled, and they're cool. They talk on the phone, everything. There was honor. But people without knowing all the details, that just put it on the church. That's why I don't go to church.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You know, and again, just just cop out. I'm just being honest. Yeah, yes, yes. And but all that to say is that you know, it's easy for us. I don't remember what I was gonna say.
SPEAKER_03:I had it like right there. I was talking about people like abandoning the church altogether, the body prices, like checking out, yeah, yeah, and and we use moments like that.
SPEAKER_01:And I was just talking about the post. That's that's where I read that. And and people were just just questioning the church overall, the church, the body of Christ as a whole. Yeah, you know, and I I think that's sad. No, it is, it is. I was gonna say this when I've let people down, personally, my objective has never been to hurt anyone, it's always been like I want to lead people as best as I can. Right. Maybe they weren't on a roster, you know, because I I've done a lot of worship creative ministry. Yeah, maybe they weren't on the roster for a month or certain things for different reasons. And so I see big picture, there's hundreds of people that volunteer on teams, and it's hard to get everyone involved. There's been seasons where I've focused myself like and mentored like dudes, and there's been ladies that are like, Man, like how come you get all the attention to all the guys and not me? I'm like, Well, I'm a dude, yeah, yeah. And so my intentions have always been to point them to Jesus, never to hurt people, but the truth is I've hurt them, right? And so maybe miscommunication, misunderstanding, there's several things, and it hasn't been until I've confronted the individuals that clarity came, yes, but they understood my heart, right? And stuff, and that's why communication's important, yes, you know, and so if if you have no direct communication with someone and you're they hurt you, yeah, it's kind of hard to I think about it like why am I gonna get offended with someone that I can't sit down with and talk through things? You know that's a great point, and so but again, a lot of people in lives, and I'm not saying everyone, but a lot of leaders in our lives, they've made decisions with the best intent in mind. But even with our best intentions, we're gonna hurt people because we're human.
SPEAKER_04:That's right.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we're human, absolutely, but but and this is what I want to say if we're pointing people to Jesus, right? And if as as a follower of Jesus, I I am being led to Christ through relationships. That's right. Right. I'm here, I I want to lead my friend Willie to Jesus and and how we do life together and how we lead together here at church. And and as long as I'm pointing him to Jesus and he knows, hey Willie, I'm imperfect, right? And you're you're going to Jesus. Right. You're not going to Elmer Heaven. You're not going to, you know, you're not.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, you're not going to be on the throne at the right hand of the Father. No, I'm not. Correct.
SPEAKER_01:And so that that's the thing. So talking about where are you investing yourself, you know, there's if leaders are pointing you to Christ, right? It's it's hard to invalidate sermons and books.
SPEAKER_03:And it again, that's why I made that point. Which is why Paul says, hey, follow me as I follow Christ. Like, follow me to the one who saved you, the to the one that I'm telling you about. Why? Because he says, I'm a I'm a fragile clay jar. I'm not the one. And and I so I think about the law of love, like 1 Corinthians 13, right? The love chapter. Love is patient, love is body. Like love does not demand its own way. Love believes the best. Love believes all things. And I just wonder, Elmer, how many of these hurts, and I mean this not, I'm not even being facetious. I mean, I wonder how many hurts that we have and aughts and misgivings that we have toward others would be resolved if we did two things. The first one is to say to ourselves, I'm going to assume that this person didn't intentionally hurt me. That's first. And then number two, I'm gonna go talk with them.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I just wonder how many hurts. And again, not invalidating. I mean, you feel what you feel.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:But I just wonder how quickly and effectively and healthily it would be resolved. If number one, you just said to yourself, because we get spun up. Like what I mean, hurt like when somebody hurts you, like you feel that because it's visceral and it's primal, and it's like, man, why'd they do that? So all these questions come. And then your emotions says, Man, they did it on purpose because we're just we're survivalists by by nature, we're just self-preservators. Yeah, yeah. And and and so, but if we just say, Oh, time out, maybe Elmer didn't intentionally hurt me. Yeah. And out of that, because man, that's foundational because that literally informs the very next thing that I do. Because if I if the if the truth is that you intentionally hurt me, oh well, I'm gonna hurt your back. Or I'm gonna get defensive. I'm gonna self-reject because I gotta, what is it, protect my peace. But if the messaging is this person didn't intentionally hurt me, then it becomes redemptive.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And you have a desire to restore and reconcile that relationship because that person was pointing you to Christ. As a Christ follower, I want to follow Jesus and his example.
SPEAKER_01:And now there's the other extreme, which it's unfortunate that there are leaders that are pointing people to Christ. Yes. And they do use platforms to do that. Yes. But then behind the scenes, there's been molestation, you know, sexual harassment, rape, all those things, which is unfortunate. Yeah, it's terrible. And I know people, you know, even in my own family that have been molested and things like that. So it's it's not something you take lightly. No, and it scars you for life. Yes. And so again, I know we're saying all these things at the beginning that you're like, but like you don't know what I'm feeling. Yeah. Like we don't want to disvalidate feelings at all and and and your experience. Right. And and there are those like that's so hard. I can't imagine recovering from an experience like that. Absolutely. Where, you know, in an environment like church where you should feel the safety.
SPEAKER_04:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:The worst of things happens to you, yeah, you know, or your children or things like that. And so that's why we fight hard as a church here at Life Point to we gotta protect the kids. That's right. You know, we're getting ready for our new building and everything at Tiny Town, and we're like, we there's their safety is important. Yeah, we're talking through all the details, we want to make sure they're safe and uh and not just you know, not just in the building, but even like all right, you know, background checks. That's absolutely yeah, because we know that that's important to people, and so if it's important to you, it's important to us. Absolutely, and and and so that's another reality that man, how do you heal from that? How do you recover from that? And again, men and women are gonna fail us. That's right, but God is so good, amen. And so, and I mean, I I don't know any other way of of of finding redemption for that, like yeah, like it other than it has to be again to your point, starting with the Lord.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, let me go back to Isaiah 6. I mean, Isaiah is wrecked, and the and God in his kindness says, I'm gonna give you the greatest reminder that you need. I am still on the throne. Means I'm still in control, I am sovereign, I see you. I mean, every letter that Jesus addressed to the churches in Revelation, he says, I know you, I know your works, and I know you. And that's the same God who's with you in the midst of that pain. Like you've been betrayed, you've had your your innocence stolen, like you have been profoundly hurt. Can I just remind you that Jesus, he says, I know you. I see you, I am here with you. And it's this beautiful picture because it's intimacy and it's supremacy. He's here with us, but he is still in control of everything that's going on. And you have to, you really do have to start there because any other avenue becomes humanistic. Any other avenue becomes legalistic and it becomes about your effort. I've got to convince myself, I've got to get better, I've got to intuit this thing enough. No, no, no. Actually, the better thing to do is to surrender, run into the arms of your father and just let him hold Joanne and let him remind you. I mean, you know, again, we're we're both fathers, and I mean, I I just remember when you know when my kids were younger, you know, they would bump their elbow or you know, bump their head, and they would be squalling in pain. And I'd pick them up. Now, my touch is not healing, it doesn't take the pain away, but my presence is comforting them. It's comforting to them. And I'm just here's the thing I'm holding them until the pain subsides. I'm holding them.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Hey, some of you right now, you need to let your heavenly father hold you as that pain begins to subside. I don't listen, I'm not gonna put a clock on it, but let let your heavenly father hold you again and comfort you and soothe you. And the Bible even says he will quiet you with his love.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And I I just think you you have to start there because I don't want this to be like a therapy session. We're not therapists or counselors, but we are pastors, and like you just said, we're gonna point you back to Jesus. Why? Because he really is the comforter, he really is the good shepherd.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and we and another thing is we don't want people pretending like nothing happens, right? And so there there are the point of failures, yes, and so it is a truth, yes, and and again, we don't have all the answers. If Pastor Mike was here, he he wouldn't have all the answers. No, and we're not gonna pretend to have all the answers and why and this and that, but again, we want to point you back to Christ. Yes, you know, he he he will be that comfort that you're talking about, right? And then I I've learned just through my journey walking with my family on all their experiences that communicating and sharing the things that have happened, yes, and the hurt in a safe environment, right, you know, where you can say what you need to say, right, that that does make a difference.
SPEAKER_03:It does, makes a huge difference.
SPEAKER_01:And so I know you said we're not counselors. No, we're not. We have a great pastoral care team. We do, we have great pastors on our team, yes, and we partner with great counselors that can help you know you talk through the different pains, experiences that you have probably faced, the traumas and things like that. Speaking, going through the process, yeah, will lead to healing. Yes, and and that's the goal of this again. So, how do you rebuild trust? Yeah, a lot of it is number one, you know, where where are you putting I think of love you, yeah. I think of uh you I don't know if you ever had this, but like for kids, they used to have a bucket for one of our kids, and they're like, This is your love bucket, and like you don't know? No, you got to I'll I'll explain later then. So come on, tell me what it is the love bucket, the love bucket. So it's just where like you you're investing yourself into these things, like this is the things that I love, and you know that's that's this is what's in here is important, yeah. You know, I dare you to drink out of your cup. No, man, it ain't no love in that cup. You put some water in there, we didn't wash it, we didn't wash it, it's been sitting here for months.
SPEAKER_03:Now it's got all floaties in there, and I'm parched.
SPEAKER_01:Like I'm seeing it.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, you can see it right now. It's like amoebas and protozoas.
SPEAKER_01:But but the love bucket. So you have the things that you invest into, and then also the the the things you've already experienced, and how are you gonna deal with that? I I you have to for the not just for your sake, but but for the the sake of your kids, the sake of those around you. You know, there's God wants to use your story, and we talk about it a lot. I I I talk about it so much, you know, I've I've made it part of my sermons in the past that God wants to use your story. Yes, even if it's full of pain and hurt, like God will redeem that and he'll take everything that the enemy intended for evil and he'll turn it around for good. And man, there's there's someone that you can help, yeah, you know, and prevent things from happening in their lives, yes, just by sharing your story or even bring healing to people that have experienced, and you hear that a lot, yeah. But the ultimate goal is for you to walk in freedom.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, you know, it's uh two two thoughts. First, just really leaning into that the compet the confession piece that you were talking through. You know, every year I read that book, Celebration of Discipline by Richard Foster, and he he talked about these 12 Christian disciplines that kind of shape your walk. And one of them is confession. And I remember telling my my wife Carolyn and telling you, uh Elmer, that I just felt like the Lord this year, it was leading into confession. And so practically what that looked that did that look like? Well, it was getting into a men's group, a strong men's support group, where it was it wasn't patty cake and surface level. It was like, hey, how are you guys doing? You know, hey, let's check the engine oil. And and there's healing in it. James 5.16. This is just, I mean, you, you know, like you we put all tattoo verses. Like, if I were to get a tattoo, I'd get this one. Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another that you may be healed. The prayer of the righteous person has great power as it is working. Like, we love the back half of that verse. And because it's true, the prayer of the righteous avails much, but the condition is the confession. The prayer is offered in response to the confession. So if you're not walking in healing, I ask you, are you walking in confession? Are you and and he says, confess your sins, and I don't think it's just sins that you've committed sins that have been committed against you. Yeah. Confess your faults, your hurts. Confess your pain. And then the prayer offered in response to that confession will heal you. And what's interesting is that he says that confession is what heals you. It's and it's confession to one another. It's not confession to the Lord. Let me just message off theology. James says here, confess your sins one to another, not to the Lord, to another, and that's where the healing comes. I'm not saying God can't heal you another way, but James is saying right here, if you confess to one another, God will use that confession among brothers and sisters with through the prayer offered in response to that to heal you. And then secondly, Lord, where was I going? So, yeah, first is confession. And then what was my second point going to be, Elmer? Confession. Lord?
SPEAKER_01:You're talking about confession.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, we're talking about confession. Lord Jesus. I'm speechless for once. Cousin Willie is speechless. Cousin Willie. For once. That's the amoeba water. This that well, I ain't touched it. Well, I did sip it earlier. Maybe that's what it's messing with my brain. Oh man. Lord, what was it gonna be? What was the last point you made?
SPEAKER_01:I was uh now you got me. You okay? I was just saying it's healing. Like we have to get to a place of healing by sharing, sharing our story, confessing our story.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, I remember now. A former staff member said, God never wastes our pain. Yeah. And and so you may be going through this, and man, it's easy to say, man, what is the point? God, why? Or maybe you are on the backside of it and you're like, God, why? Why did I go through all of that? Seriously, why? I would rather not have gone through that. And let me just tell you, God never wastes your pain. He never wastes your pain. He is a master of putting you in a situation where you can speak life to someone and they'll say, that's exactly where I'm at right now.
SPEAKER_01:Is it fair to say, and again, we're processing, yeah. Is it fair to say that for those that have been hurt you know in different whatever the experience was? But we've we've we've put it on God and we've blamed God, we've blamed the church. Is it fair to say to start by rebuilding our trust with God? 100%.
SPEAKER_03:So Pastor Mike taught a brilliant series on forgiveness a couple years back. And the last one was forgiving God. He he talked about this theological turn called a theodicy, where essentially it's struggling with okay, if God is good, why does evil happen? Why does it persist? And so some of you, you you yeah, you're right. You need to build rebuild trust in the Lord. You need to rebuild trust in the Lord because maybe you feel like the Lord is failing. Man, God, why did you allow that to happen? Okay, if you're good, then why does evil persist? And if you're powerful, why do you allow it to happen? Why don't you just why didn't you intervene? Why didn't you stop that person from touching me? Hey, why didn't you preserve that person's life? Hey, if you knew this person was was a was a bad leader, why didn't you expose them for who they are? God, why did you let this happen? And and you're frustrated and angry because your questions have gone unanswered or they've gone unanswered in the way that you think they should be. And and your wrestler really is with the Lord. And hey, can listen, can I just tell you right now, first of all, he can handle your anger, he can handle your frustration. He really can. Like you can bring all of that to him. He won't be offended, like, oh my me, he he's not gonna do that. That was a joke. You'll catch that when you get home. He can handle it because he loves you. And and so you can start by rebuilding trust with him. And how do you do that? Can I just remind you, King Uzziah, he dies. And the first thing that Isaiah sees is that he is still on the throne. He is still and he listen, he still loves you and he cares for you. He is with you in the midst of that. David says he prepares a table for me in Psalm 23. In the presence of your rod and your staff, they comfort me. He was there with you. I read a beautiful story through the keys to freedom, key the the keys to freedom course. And this guy was telling his testimony about how his father said he was a failure, and you know, said he, you know, was an idiot, he he was, you know, uncreative and all this stuff. And he grew up and he struggled with the Lord. Like, God, where were you at? You know all of that. And as he got older, he was in prayer and just really processing this, and the Lord took him back. And the Lord showed him that he was doing two things. The first thing he showed him was that he was on the corner of the bed because his dad was just berating him, and he showed him that he was on the corner of his bed, holding him, holding him close, and he was whispering in his ear truths that were counter to the lies. And then he said the second thing he showed him was that the Lord was pleading with his father to repent. I was like, man. And he said it just that that's what broke him. He was like, Okay, God, you were there, you were protecting me, and you were pleading with him. And when you repent, hey, this isn't my hey, that's not what I called you to do. Repent, stop your mad course. And can I just say, man, that's what the Lord does. He's He's with you. Go back to the darkest moment of your life, go back to that time, go back to that the point of portrayal, the point of pain. And I want you to see where the Lord was. He was in the corner of the room, he was in the corner of the bed, he was right there next to you, he was right there with you, he was protecting you, and he was proclaiming what the other person. I promise you he was.
SPEAKER_01:Man, it's powerful.
SPEAKER_03:Man, praise the Lord.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I I think start there. Yeah. You know, rebuilding trust and leadership. Maybe it's not with man itself, it's it's with the Lord. Yeah. Because it is hard to trust men of God, women of God when you're upset at God.
SPEAKER_03:It is. You'll never trust them.
SPEAKER_01:You'll never trust them because they're associated with the source of your pain. Absolutely. And yeah. So it needs to be addressed.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's like, you know, the Israelites, you know, in scripture, New Testament, they wouldn't trust the Roman soldiers because they represent Rome. Like Rome's the issue, right? The government. And maybe you don't trust God's messengers or the angels, as they're called in Revelation. Maybe you don't trust the messengers because you're like, no, the one who said, I I got an issue with him. Hey, that's a good word. So maybe you go back to the to the source.
SPEAKER_01:Go back to the source. And as you're walking along, like, like as you're on that journey, like allow yourself to get to a place where you can trust people.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And I think that's the power of community, small groups. I'll be transparent. When we moved to Australia in 2016, you know, I had done ministry for several years to that point. And my wife and I had the privilege of to serve in larger churches, you know. We we we met in Texas, everything's big and huge in Texas. And and then moved to Nashville and all these things. And everything in church for me seemed like, oh man, it's just production, living in the creative world, right? Every Sunday was coming faster than the last. And yeah, and you had to get this done and you know, try to get everyone rostered. And there's there's a lot of moving pieces to make a Sunday happen. And so I'm grateful and thankful for our staff that that leans in preparing for the weekends and all the volunteers, all the dream teamers that make it happen.
SPEAKER_04:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Couldn't do it without them.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You know, but but at that point in life, it was so exhausting. And it was over and over. It was just like repeat, repeat, repeat. And I had lost the joy of of what I was doing because now it became a task. It became like we're just doing things.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Became a job.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You know, and and for me, it's always been part of my calling. Like God's called me to his people. And and so I I got exhausted. And so when we end up moving to Australia to go serve at a church down there, and while we're there, like I'm I'm like, all right, let me take everything that I've learned in American church, yeah, all the systems and strategies, all that stuff we're gonna implement it. And the first thing I was told, like, hey, what are you doing? It's like, no, no, no, just relax, like just get to know people.
SPEAKER_04:Wow.
SPEAKER_01:Like, just like you, you're not allowed to have meetings with anyone until, you know, until they actually give me an actual date in January, like at the end of January. You're not allowed to have any of your team meetings until after January. January. I'm like, okay. I didn't understand that there's power in relationship, you know, because for me, there was power. What made ministry so effective to me what was what I could do.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:The doing. Yes. The effectiveness of my abilities, like getting things done for Sundays, making sure videos were done, making sure music was ready, that that the team on platform was next level, you know, greatest musicians, greatest singer, all that. Yeah. That people were wearing the right clothes, all of making sure that the the boxes were ticked. Yeah. But there was no relationship for me because it was just do, do, do, do. That's how I was taught. Yeah, yeah. And so then my season in Australia as a family, it became about community. And there's 106 nationalities at the church we're at. So a lot of different cultures to kind of pull from and learn from. Yeah. And the majority of them were very family-oriented. Yeah. And so then it drew us back just to back to community, back to family. And so even though I had other plans in mind, yeah, God had a whole nother plan for our family in restoring the hope in the church, restoring our love for people. Like I was already, I was already here ordained as a pastor prior to that. Yeah. You know, and so I moved to Australia as a pastor. But if I'm being transparent, I was more of a manager and director prior to that.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Because it was about the things and not the people. Right. And so, and that's what I'm saying. I've made a lot of mistakes because I was moving people through the processes and doing things. Yeah. And I wasn't doing life with people.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So I didn't understand their hurts. I didn't understand the pain. I didn't understand the things that they were actually going through. Right. And they were experiencing. So I could they could share us a sob story or something hard and heavy. Yeah. And I wouldn't connect with them because I'm like, are they going to make it on today?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah. That yeah, that's the filter. Wow.
SPEAKER_01:It was more like, okay, how are you going to are okay? Yeah. You know, you know, wow. Again, with the intention of we got to get church done because for the glory of God. And so I was in the wrong because my perspective of the church, the people was wrong because it was about putting on a service. But our season in Australia really redeemed that and healed that because I fell in love with people.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And that's the thing that the very people that you fall in love with are the very people that are going to hurt you. Yeah, absolutely. The very people that Jesus came to earth for. Yeah. Are the very people that crucified him?
SPEAKER_03:That's right. The ones that said Hosanna.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And that's just that's the irony of life that we're called to people, we're called to open up our hearts to give it away just for it to be hurt. Yeah. But but then that's where we're here. Like it was Adam and Eve. Like he didn't God said it's not it's not good for man to be alone. That's right. Not just so he could have a partner, you know, but so he could have communities. Absolutely. And but God was still God. Right. Right. And so God positions us on this earth. He has placed us where He where we're at, where you're at. And there's people around you. Like my prayer is that you can learn to love the people that God has brought you to, the people that God has brought to you. Absolutely. And in the middle of your pain and the hurt and distrust, you can learn to trust people again. Yes. And it's it's it's less about the people because these people that that we met in Australia, they had no idea of the baggage that I was carrying.
SPEAKER_04:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. But in doing life with them, I didn't tell them, oh, this is how I saw life. No, it was revealed to me. Yes. By just in the process of doing life with them. Absolutely. Because I saw I saw good again. Right. I saw I saw hope again. Yeah. I saw love again. I felt love again. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yep.
SPEAKER_01:But it required me to put my guard down and to be like, all right, I'm gonna start over. Absolutely. You know, and then when we move back to Clarkshwood it's like, man, like Sundays are coming. That's that's awesome. We're gonna prepare. That's right. But like now it's about people, and and I do my best to make sure, like, all right, where are they at, what's going on? Yeah, how do we pastor? How do we love people? Where they're at, more on the relational level versus systems and structures, you know, and so I appreciate you sharing that, man.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's powerful. You know, what one thing I was thinking through when you said that was like like the world standard, the world's way of thinking is you find healing apart from the thing that hurt you, from the environment that hurt you, right? It's like, hey, like if you're like you know, people say, Man, I'm swearing off of marriage forever. Well, because they're like, well, because marriage hurt me, so I was like, oh, logically, yeah, don't get married again because marriage was the point of pain. But like you said, because people are human, and sometimes God's people do hurt you, and you can be hurt within the context of ministry and church, but God uses that very same context to redeem and and to heal, to your point. That was our story, man, coming back really but before we moved back here from Alabama. There was a church that we were a part of when we moved to Bama after finishing college, and man, served there faithfully, loved it, man. And then the Lord, it was like he just pulled back the wool. Seriously, it was like a shocker as to the what was happening. It was just, it was poor, unguided leadership, like misappropriation of functions. It's like, and and but but the the leader himself, man, had he was incredibly congenial, he was warm, he was gregarious, like he was the one who really taught me like basic Bible reading and you know communication. He was the first pastor to really like call out like that that gift. He just saw it. But man, there was just like sinful behavior, and it didn't come out until like later on. And his response to us as a church challenging him on that was to double down. And and you know, there was the whole touch not God's anointed, and and then we're like, Are you serious right now? Like, none of this anointed. And and so yeah, we just you know, I had a one-on-one with him, and it was a three-hour conversation. And, you know, I just said, Hey man, listen, like we we we can't be a part of this, like we don't want to be a part of this that is pointly against God's word. And, you know, he basically he cursed me on the way out. He didn't cuss, he cursed me on the way out. He's like, man, this is what God's gonna visit on you and this, this, and that. Like, and I struggled with that. And the Lord led us to, you know, another ministry that we were a part of for over a decade until we moved back here. And man, I just and it was crazy because we came in on a Wednesday night, and the Wednesday night service was was so so it was like a full Sunday service, you know, and we were just greeted. I never forget her name is Miss Miss Gloria. I love you, Miss Gloria. She greeted us with the warmest smile. And I and I mean I just man, just boohooed, man, because it was like, okay, Lord, I'm home. And man, we sat in service, and he the the the pastor, shout out my pastor Scott Schatzline, he's just he's just an incredible leader. He was the one who taught me the statement, Son Shepherds Smell Like Sheep. And he he he was he taught a message, it was on a series called Champions. And at the very last thing that he said, I remember I had my head down when he said he's like champions, just do it. And you know that mic whine you hear like wow, it sounded like he was right in my ear. And I looked up at him and he was looking right at me. I'm like, what is going on? I'm in the back of the church now because it's packed. And he said, Champion, just do it. And then that moment the Lord was like, Hey son, this is gonna be real scary, but I need you to do it. And right after that, man, I told Caroline, I said, We're gonna go up and talk to him. She was like, What? I said, We're gonna talk to him. And then that was it. We were just locked in and we joined right then. I said, What do you got going on? We have our growth track to call it, you know, the experience. I'm like, we're doing it Sunday. Because it in that moment, the Lord was letting me know. Hey, that's the other thing, too. Let me just say this, man. The Lord will let you know too when it's safe. Like the Lord told me that, like, this is safe. These people are safe. And he said, just do it. And I did it scared, not knowing, okay, God, what is this? But man, the healing that came, he was just a father to me. That the the team there, they were brothers and sisters. We still have tight relationships with those folks all the way in Tuscaloosa to this day. And so that's what I'm saying. The very environment and context that hurt us was the very same environment and context that God used to bring healing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And because again, the church, Pastor Mike would say this all the time. It's the only organization on the planet ordained by God. There are tons of great organizations out there: Samaritan's Purse, Red Cross, Convoy of Hope. They're awesome. None of them are ordained by God according to Scripture. So it's like, I love the fact that God is eminently committed to healing you through that organization of people, like the Capital C church and the body of Christ. He's committed to healing you through that. And man, you just have to just take a step and just say, okay, God, this is scary. Do it scared. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Do it scared. That's good. Come on. Last thought, man, I have honestly is the the very people, if you're gonna hold them to a high standard, yeah. And you're gonna allow them influence in your life, I think it's fair that you hold them accountable to their their character and their spiritual walk. Yep. I wouldn't expect anything less from an athlete that if if I'm gonna be a fan of this team and their performance and they're they're they're out of shape, and yeah, you you're gonna hold them accountable. As a fan, you're gonna be like, hey man, like you you you kind of grow in the wrong way, right? Oh well, which are we growing the wrong way? This way, no, this way, yeah. My Lord, man. And so and it's it's and it's easier for us to do that, but then there's other people we're like, oh no, they got it. Yeah, you know, they know what they're talking about. They you know that you know, but don't just assume. Yeah. And so I I would just I I always tell people, like, are you praying for your leaders? Yes. Are you praying for the people that are speaking into your life, you know, that are influencing your children? Yeah, there's a lot of of us parents that are so loosely allowing influences into our children's life through different platforms, through different mediums. Music, music, music, music has always had a stronghold on humanity since you know back in the days. Absolutely, you know, until now. And so the lyrics, the words, you know, all of that has power. There's power in the life of the the power of life and death is on the top. 100%. And so we got to be careful what is being, you know, what our kids are listening to, what they're watching. And so all of those things, hold them accountable. Yes, because there are the times that hurt is done to us, sometimes on accident or intentional, and there's the times that we're just not paying attention. Yeah. And then someone gets hurt because we are just too lax, and we've just let left, like you said earlier, we've left gates open. Yes, and we've not set boundaries. Yeah, and so there are those boundaries that we need to place. Hold your leaders accountable to like how are you doing? If you're my pastor, hey, are you in your word? Are you praying? Absolutely. Hey, how are you loving your wife? How are you loving your kids?
SPEAKER_03:Like, seriously, like let me let me let me get a pulse check. Like, what's going on, man?
SPEAKER_01:I want to know. I want to know more about your character. Yeah, and that's one of the things that I love about Pastor Mike and Pastor Stephanie. And and I know I get another perspective from than other people, you know, because we're a lot closer in proximity. We work with them, and you know, we've been friends for a while. And so I get to see how he treats Pastor Steph, how she treats him, how they treat the kids, how they've raised the kids, yeah, you know, how they operate their household. And so there's there's other things that people might criticize them from afar, sure, but then I'm seeing how they're actually living things out. Right. And that's where for me, regardless of what I hear, what I see is completely that's it, right there. And that's that's why you can't just be like, oh, well, this is what I what I see on social media. Like it's not enough.
SPEAKER_03:Brother, you better preach it. You're preaching a word.
SPEAKER_01:It's not. Uh uh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I was thinking about what Peter said. He says, I think it's in 2 Peter. He he talks about we're not here. This is 2 Peter chapter 1, verse 16. We did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. But we were, listen to this, eyewitnesses of his majesty. John says the same thing. Hey, we're not telling you what we heard. We saw the man. I think John says we touched him. And so when you talk about honor, you talk about those that you love. I mean, I've you know, I've been serving on staff here for five years, I've been coming to like 20 since 2017, almost eight years. And I mean, I just know the character of our leadership, and that takes time. You're a fruit inspector, right? Again, can I just remind you guys, man? Give it's the pace of grace. Be a fruit inspector, just watch and observe, and then line it up with the word, line it up with scripture, line it up with what the Holy Spirit's telling you as well, as you're just rebuilding trust. Because again, can I just remind you again the body of Christ is a gift. I thank God for the body of Christ.
SPEAKER_01:Amen.
SPEAKER_03:I thank God for the body of Christ.
SPEAKER_01:Amen. I th as you're saying that, I think about Jesus when he resurrected, he could have resurrected and healed the scars in the world. He could have came back just fully healed. Absolutely. But there was a reason those scars are still there. Yeah. And we see that in his in his interaction with Thomas.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Like he knew I'm gonna come back. Yeah, but then there's still someone that's gonna be doubting it, and I need to leave this right here.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So there was still there was still part of the pain just visibly of Jesus. Even if he might have felt it, I don't know. I'm not Jesus, right? Fair enough. But but the the wound itself was evidence and enough evidence to show Thomas, like, hey, this is real. Yeah, the scars told a story. The scars told a story. And so again, going back to people's own journey and your own your own story, the scars will tell a story. Tell a story, you know, and so and it's it's you might be in the middle of it and you might not have the words, yeah. You know, but just again, find yourself back to the Lord. Yes, and whatever that is, however, we can help you as a church to resource you in that in that path, just let us know. Reach out, email us. Yes, and uh, and we want to help you. Absolutely, reach out to your small group leaders, reach out to to your directors, whoever it is, somebody in your life that can help you just get back on path. Again, the the topic of today is rebuilding trust with when leadership fails you, but it's ultimately not to redeem, not to redeem leadership. Right, right. You know, we're not trying to make leadership look good in any in any way. We want you to walk in freedom. Come on, and and to be able to to have that relationship, a vibrant relationship with the Lord. Yes, and so and as that happens, everything will flow from there. Amen. You'll be able to trust, you'll be able to serve, you'll be able to just lean into new leadership that God places in your life, or even God calls you into leadership, and you'll know, hey, I'm not gonna treat people the way that I was once treated. That's so good. And so I know for me, I that's one lesson I've learned. I'm not gonna treat people ways that I've been treated. Absolutely, you know, and then from my own mistakes, I've learned I'm not gonna repeat the same things, right? You know, and so we all have something to share, something to say.
SPEAKER_03:So good, man.
SPEAKER_04:So man, hey, this was fun. I enjoyed this, man. This was fun, right? This was good. Praise the Lord.
SPEAKER_01:Hey, this is a double episode week. This is so we got another podcast.
SPEAKER_02:We got another one coming up tomorrow. And so be there or be square.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's gonna be great. Yeah, but again, thanks, Pastor Willie. Love you, Pastor. Appreciate you. Good to see you. Love you. I want to see you drink that water after that. Not even for a million dollars. All right, we'll see you guys later. Peace out.
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