How to Experience God’s Presence Every Day (The Tabernacle Pattern)

God didn’t just rescue His people, He moved toward them. That’s what makes the tabernacle so striking: a holy God gives a detailed pattern so broken humans can still meet with Him. We talk through Exodus 25 to 27 and take a guided tour from the outer court to the holy place to the Holy of Holies, showing how every detail points to God’s desire for fellowship, not distance. 

The turning point is Jesus. When the veil tears at the cross, access changes forever. We are no longer kept at a distance, and we don’t need spiritual performance to “make something happen.” We prepare environments, but we don’t manufacture moments. That hits home for anyone serving multiple services, fighting the temptation to chase feedback, or feeling the drift from awe to routine. We also get practical about keeping your eyes on the Lord between services, and we end with questions that challenge leaders and parents to think about the patterns we’re building in the people watching us. 

If you care about worship, church leadership, spiritual disciplines, and living as the priesthood of believers, press play and join the conversation. Subscribe, share this with a friend, leave a review, and tell us: what helps you stay intentional in God’s presence when life gets busy?

Transcript

Welcome And The Tabernacle

SPEAKER_02 0:09

Hey, what's going on, everybody, and welcome to the Worship and Leadership Podcast. My name is Elmer Cons Jr. And I'm here with my buddy Willie C. Simpson Jr.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

Ginny Jiggy with it. Gitty Jiggy with it. Gitting jiggy with it. What's going on, man? I'm excited to be here today, man.

SPEAKER_02 0:30

Me too. And we're excited that that you guys are joining us right now. Sorry that the music cut off so abruptly because we were dancing. You were dancing in your beauty moon. But we're we're glad that you guys are joining us today for another episode of the Worship and Leadership Podcast. Yes. And we're in season five, like we said last week, season five, episode two. And we are talking about worship, the priesthood. And today we're talking about The Tabernacle.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

Let's go. Or as the season saints used to say the Tacernacle.

SPEAKER_02 0:59

The Tabernacle.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

You know, there's a lot of churches, man, that use the term tabernacle in the name. Yep. You know, I think about Brooklyn Tabernacle, the legendary church out there East Coast. Brooklyn Tab. Yeah, Brooklyn Tab for sure. You know, we have we have a church here in locally called the Tabernacle.

SPEAKER_03 1:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

And yeah, so it's just, it's a because the word tabernacle means house or dwelling place. So yeah, churches like to use it. But yeah, we're talking about the tabernacle, looking at the structure, the design, the construction of the tabernacle, and then also looking at what's inside of it, you know, the the furniture, the furnishings, and the divisions of it. And then obviously, since we're new covenant people, looking at how that really is a foreshadowing of us as the dwelling place, the tabernacle, but then also the house of God and then as worship leaders. Hey, what does that mean for us? What's the implication for us? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

Hey, before we talk about the tabernacle, yeah. It's St. Patrick's Day.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

It is.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

And so you don't have any green.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

Oh man. I got green in my teeth, man. I had some Chipotle. I got some shilantro. It's in my teeth, and uh, I save it for later today.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

That's okay. You pinch me. Oh no. Oh, does that work? Let's see. It's my hand. Come on.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Happy St. Patrick's Day.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

From the dark side. Man. For those of you listening, he has an actual lightsaber that Jacob brought into the studio.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

This thing is so cool. This is what y'all need to do. Get your word, the sword, and the spirit. Tell the devil.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Bamp down, devil. Man. Well, there you go. You got it in. You're trying to figure out how to incorporate a lightsaber. You helped me out, Elvis.

SPEAKER_02 2:51

There you go. Now back to the dwelling place of God.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Yes. So uh Exodus chapters 25 and 27 give us the prescription for the building of this tabernacle, this dwelling place, this tent of meaning. Again, kind of calling back to our last episode, episode one. We've got to remember that here we have the Lord. He's created everything in existence, including mankind, and he creates us in perfection. Mankind sins, and that causes separation. There's a loss of intimacy, not just physical death, but this spiritual and relational death. But God is consistent and he has a heart for people. He has he has this desire to relate to us and to do life and fellowship with us. But the shape of that has to look different now. And so he creates this plan so that we as sinful human beings can come into his perfect holy presence. And so this tabernacle, think of it again, it's a house, it's a tent of meeting, a special place for a select few people to enter into the presence of God and still have relationship and fellowship with him.

SPEAKER_02 3:56

Yeah, I I think it's fascinating to me in your words. To your point, that God so longed for a relationship with his creation that he would create this place for him to come and abide because it wasn't just anybody that can go and be in his presence. People could see the cloud, yep, you know, or or the glory, the cloud, all that. But they it wasn't like like our relationship with God now where we're you know, we are the temple of the Holy Spirit, we're in communion with God. Right. You know, Jesus tells us, draw and draw near to me, I'll draw near to you. Yeah, that wasn't the case then. Yeah, it was real specific, and yeah, there was an order which we're gonna talk about. But God longed for a relationship with his creation that that he came down in this place to be able to dwell amongst his creation.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Yeah, yeah, you're right. Again, that's why I said earlier, I select few people. Yeah, because again, this is prescriptive. So the Lord's like, yeah, you can draw close, but only a few of you, and in a specific way.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

But again, it still speaks to the heart of God to want to relate. And again, like you just said too, it's like there's a there's a specific way, but he has a longing to connect. And but and it was certain times, certain days. So you can see the glory cloud, you can see that the Lord's here with you, but there's a special way to approach him. And so looking at Exodus 25 and 27 or through through 27, I want y'all to read that on your own. It's it gives you a really good prescriptive way. And God uses the term, this one word over and over again, the word pattern. So he tells Moses, hey, listen, I want you to build and construct this tabernacle according to the pattern that I'm gonna show you. Why is that important? Well, the tabernacle is not a man-made invention, it's God created. God's like, I'm prescribing to you the way that you can come to me. So let's pause here. We talk about worship. There is a way for us to enter into God's presence. Like we want to enter with reverence and with awe, but we want to we want to enter into his presence and can commune with him in a way that accords with scripture and accord with his will and and and with his good design.

SPEAKER_02 5:57

Yeah, and you hear a lot of people will will they'll say that the tabernacle, it's it's almost like an a foreshadowing of of what's coming in scripture, but then also just you know, we don't know what's in heaven. Right. But God had to create something where he could come and relate with us. Right. And so it's almost like there's a specific pattern that the order that you're saying, and for in order for us to be able to correct with him. Yeah. I'm just repeating what you said.

Outer Court To Holy Place

SPEAKER_00 6:27

I love it, man. It's great. No, but you're right though, because he and this is you to your, you know, we're talking about to your point. Foreshadowing, Hebrews 8, does talk about how these are copies of the real tabernacle in heaven. So let's just look at, okay, well, what what is the pattern? Well, you look at the furniture. Yep. So he's instructed to follow this pattern. Well, you have what's called the outer court, and the outer court, that's really for anybody. Anybody can you think of the outer court like a big marketplace? It's a place where everybody can come in. We've got to remember that there's you know, bronze laver, there's the the the altar, there's there are places, this is where the priests are, they're preparing the sacrifices for the people to bring. Remember that God says, hey, there are certain sacrifices that you can bring that to be in a certain condition, so this is where the people are bringing them. And then we we go into the inner court, or we're really what's called the holy place. And the holy place is where you have this special furnishing, uh furnishing, this furniture here. You have the table of showbread, you have the altar of incense, you have the golden lampstand. And I want you guys to remember that nut there is no detail that is insignificant in the Bible. Everything that's there, it's on purpose. So looking at those elements, what do they represent? Well, the golden lampstand, it was lit. And it you had basically there was a basin. It's funny, you and I were talking about this looking at Zechariah. There's there's a basin that's full of oil, and there are lampstands and there are wicks that are drawn down in there, and they the priest had to keep that basin filled with oil so that the light can never go out. It says that in Exodus, that light can never go out. But when you think about light, that's revelation, that's truth. And right next to the golden lampstand, you had the table of showbread. And what is table of showbread? It's also called the bread of the presence, and it can only be eaten by the priest or the Levites. So these were the individuals that were allowed in this tabernacle. You couldn't just have commoners, you couldn't have non-priests in there because they they again they could be killed just by God's holy presence. And the reason why you have this lampstand shining light on the bread that represents fellowship. They're eating, but also the bread is the word. Jesus says he teaches us to pray. Give us this day our daily bread. That man, that's God's presence. He is our sustainer, but the word is our bread. You know, Jesus says, man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. So God's word is what imparts to us spiritual life.

SPEAKER_02 8:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

And but it's also like you were saying, it's communicate. Hey, your eating says that this bread had to be eaten in the presence of the Lord. Lord is saying, hey, let's fellowship. You know, you think my Elmer and I, we love going to lunch. Yeah. And that's where we fellowship. Man, we've had some of our sharpest times.

SPEAKER_02 9:06

We just ate tacos, yes, sir.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

Man, carnitas. Las carnitas. Las carnitas.

SPEAKER_02 9:12

Next to Tiny Town.

SPEAKER_00 9:13

And on exit one, my Lord. You want to talk about the table of show bread? And the shakinas. You talk about the cloud? The shakinas is right there off exit one. I know what you're about to say. And and so so that so there's fellowship, but then you have the altar of incense. And incense, that's prayers, that's intercession, that's worship, and it's a sweet smelling aroma in in the nostrils, so to speak, of God. It's pleasing in his sight. And so this all represents this it's intimacy, it's closeness, it's relationship. And that's what the Lord desires of us still to this day. He wants us to draw close to him. And that's why, as a worship leader, no matter again, where you serve on a team, you have to understand you can't lead people to where you hadn't been. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:59

There's something powerful about the table. And we were talking about this yesterday. We were talking about development and how in our roles within the church as pastors, or even just leaders for just everyone just you know that's listening, because not everyone that's listening is a pastor. Yeah. But as we're developing people and we grow in a relationship with people, we invite them to tables. Yeah. So you know, in a business space, it's the conference table. Right. And then, but then it goes like, hey, let's go to a restaurant. Then it goes to like, you know, tables at restaurants. And then the more intimate you get, the table changes like, hey, I want you to come to my house to my dinner table and you think of the Lord's Supper. You know, some of the things I love communion, and I always say this when we partake of communion at our church in our services. I tell our teams backstage, and this is one of my favorite things to do because it reminds us, you know, this is because of Jesus that we get to do this. And he says, Do this in remembrance of me. Yes. We're not meant to forget and what he's done for us. And but he he gives that illustration and that sermon to the disciples at a table. Yeah. In one of the most intimate moments, and there's a lot of things that happened during that time. But again, going back to even the tabernacle, here's another table where the Lord is saying, like, hey, I want to know you. Yes. And so there's something valuable in seeing the model that God's created from the very beginning. This meeting place where people connect, relate, develop, get to know each other, get to know each other deeper in intimacy. Yeah. And uh, and it's just a powerful illustration. And so if you go back to your own home, and I hope people do this, you know, that you still have dinner or or weekend lunches with your families around the table. Uh there's just something so powerful when you sit at a table with other people and and you you have communion and you have community, right? You're sharing conversations. How's your day going? What's what's going on? Absolutely. What's new? How can I help you? How can you help me? There's just like certain walls that come down around the table.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

Absolutely. Well, yeah, to your point, David says in Psalm 23 about the Lord, hey, you prepare a table for me in the presence of my enemy. So there's there's closeness, there's fellowship. And in a Jewish context, you were also communicating to a person, you're my equal.

SPEAKER_03 12:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

Well, I'm not below you, I'm not beneath you. I'm inviting you to my table because I see you now, I see you now as an equal. And so one of the most loving things you could do is invite somebody into your home, into your space. And again, this is the Lord's table. So you think about what the Lord is saying. Hey, I see you, I accept you, you're welcome here. The God of the universe is doing that.

SPEAKER_02 12:34

And the person going into that space represented the people. Right. So even though it was a select few or a select one, it it they still represented the people, like the chosen people of God.

Holy Of Holies And Mercy

SPEAKER_00 12:44

Yes. So God is by proxy accepting all of Israel, all of the the assembly through this one through this one person. And again, Jesus, as our representative, goes and he fellowships with the Father. And so that's why we have access to the Father because He is our representative. So God says, This is my son to whom I'm well pleased. Guess what? In Christ, he is well pleased with us too. Come on, we get we get a seat at the table in Christ. And so, you know, moving further into this amazing space that we have here. I mean, you just see you can just even see the sacredness there. And there are there's no seats, there's no benches there because they're always moving, they're always working. That's intercession, it's activity. Then we're going to the most holy place of the holy of holies. Now we have the Ark of the Covenant, you know, overlaid with gold, two cherubim on the top. We got the mercy seat, the the Hillisterion, so to speak, the propitiation spot. And this is where on the Day of Atonement, the high priest comes in, sprinkles the blood, the sacrifice. The fire of God comes and consumes it. And then people know, okay, our sins have been rolled back. The guilt has been rolled back. Because they had to do it every year. So we didn't, they there was no forgiveness. It was just a forbearance. He's like, okay, I'm not going to strike you this year. But it just rolled it back one year. Well, next year you got to do the same thing again. It was a payment. It was a payment. It was a payment. That's all it was. But in that moment, even then, the people had joy when they saw the fire consume. They they knew, okay, man, our God, He's been merciful again toward us. And you can just see again, like, I just want to just pause and say this. We have to remember that God has to be provoked to anger. Too often I think people, and I think the world has portrayed God as this angry old man sitting on a cloud, ready to strike it down with a thunder, but like waiting. No, he has to be provoked to anger. That's not his default setting. What I mean by that is something has to happen to make him angry. But he his default setting is love. The Bible says God is love, and he's merciful and he's gracious and he's kind. And in this, he's like, I am preparing this system so that you can still have fellowship with me because I love you and I want fellowship with you. Come on. You know? And I just, I just, man, that's why I don't ever want to think of this stuff as dry. And I'm like, no, God, your heart is leaking out. You love your people because you're giving them prescriptive ways because you don't want to destroy them. You want to, you want them to live, you want them to do life with you. So you're like, this is how you do it. I love you. He he could have kept us in the dark about how to come close to him, but he didn't. He's like, here's a prescriptive way. And I'm like, that's love, that's mercy, that's grace for him to do that.

From Tabernacle To Prayer Closet

SPEAKER_02 15:12

And when he gives the details, God, when God gives the details of how he wants his tabernacle tabernacle built to Moses, like it's so specific. You talked about details earlier. The first artisan creative in scripture is introduced when the tabernacle is being constructed. Right. Because of the the fabrics and the the stones and the precious metals, everything that goes into it. It's like it's like you think of these fancy weddings. When we lived in Australia, everyone that had a wedding, like like we we grew up, weddings are simple here. Like you go to someone's backyard, this and that. People come to church to get married, like in the lobbies. Like in Australia, it was like thousands of dollars on on weddings, and they were so extravagant. It's like stuff you saw on TV, like the most luxurious weddings, right? And but there was so much detail and attention to like everything from when the day began to how people end their day. And that might be how your wedding was, and that's that's amazing. Yeah. But you think of all those details that go into that one one day, one encounter. And God went you know through all of these details, and he wanted to make sure they were perfect, precise, like literally precise, yeah, precision. Yeah, because he was creating a place to meet with us and to meet with his creation. And and I I just think from the out outer courts to the inner courts to the holy of holiest, like God creates patterns so that he can relate with us in a deeper way. And you know, church, we have church, then we have small groups, yeah, and then you got your prayer closet. Yes, you know, so you just think of it. How does this this snapshot of man's relationship with God or God's relationship with man really? Because he's coming down to us in the old testament. Yeah, but how does it look? How does it look like in our lives today? Because now it's like for a lot of people, church is that open door is that place where you come and everyone brings their burdens to the Lord. Hey, here's my offering, here's my everything. And then you have more intimacy in small groups, which you know, which we do here at Life Point. Yeah, and then our goal is that in your personal discipleship and development and growth with the Lord, that you're spending time and your devotion in that secret place with Him. Yeah, and that's that Holy of Holies place where you come before God. Yeah, and and the beautiful thing is that it's not like it was back then, like he's not gonna strike you dead in your closet. Right. Yeah. You know, uh, we've been redeemed by the blood of Jesus, and like you said, through the righteousness of Christ, we can now come before the Father and we ain't gonna be stricken.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

We ain't gonna be stricken, we're not gonna be smote, smitten. We're not gonna be smolten. You know, and that that's a great point because the Bible records that there was a great earthquake when Jesus died on the cross. Yep. And specifically what happened was that that so there's a uh you talk about details, there's a thick linen curtain.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

Uh-huh. The veil.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

The veil between the holy, the the holy place and the most holy place. Only the high priest could go in there, and that veil it says was ripped from the top down. Because I mean that thing was all like 12, 13 feet high. I mean, it was, you know, so there's no way humanly possible you could rip that. So it was that was a work of the Lord. And what is he saying? Hey, you have you have access to this most holy place. Where, hey, that's where the kabbad is, the shekinah, the glory. And the Lord's like, I want to reveal my glory to you one-on-one in your prayer closet. You don't have to have an intermediary, you don't have to have a man in cloth go before you. You now bring yourself to me as a living sacrifice, and I will show you my glory. Let's go. Face to face. And let me just say, this is why it's worship leaders. Can I tell you, like you said, Pastor Elmer, because we have to give you the right theology on this, because Jesus Christ, the Bible says, entered into that holy place. Remember, you're in Christ, so you have alongside him been brought into that. This earthly tabernacle is a copy. That that's what Hebrews, he Hebrews 8 says. It's these are copies, they're shadows. Listen, we now are the dwelling place. So everywhere that you go, you tabernacle with God. We are the temple of the tabernacle of the Holy Spirit. And so, because of that, you always have access to have an encounter with the Lord. You always have access, you always have the time to receive his glory. And so, why is that so important? Because the people were blessed because of the activity of the Levites in their connection with the Lord. Like Pastor Yomer said, when people come into church on Sunday, when they come, when they come to your small room, when they come to your home, man, are they blessed or are they burdened by you? I'm telling you, there's no way that you can have spent time with the Lord. Moses spent time with the Lord as a face-to-face as one talks to a friend. Came out, his face was shining. Like they knew you have been with the Lord. And can people tell by your life? I mean, is it is I mean, can can you see, can people see God's light on you? Man, you have been spending time. You're just different, man. There's just, and it's just like when you open your mouth to sing, when you open your mouth, when you when you start to play, when you share God's goodness, when you share your testimony, when you just begin to speak, even how you respond in times of frustration and tension, do people just see, man, there's just something different about you, man? I wouldn't have handled that situation at all. I mean, it's just a glory on me. I've been spending time with the Lord. And when you talk about a sacrifice, well, sacrifice is lost. I laid something down. My pride, my, you know, my short temper, I laid it down. And that just as Levites, that's why I want to be careful not to just relegate this to your point, Elmer, to like leading in worship. Man, we are Levites. What did we say? We're high priests. So you represent God everywhere that you go. And so now you now get to bring that same freedom and that same intimacy result to other people as you have been spending time with the Lord. So I would encourage you right now, get in your prayer closet. You know, that this is all prescriptive and it's detailed, but it's also intentional. Like the priest didn't just come in there laddie-da. He was like, nope, I'm going to meet with the Lord.

SPEAKER_03 21:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

And so Pastor Mike, he even taught on this when it came to Bible reading. You know, pick a spot and a slot. Spot, slot, and the time. Just say, hey, every morning at 5 a.m., I'm meeting with the Lord.

SPEAKER_02 21:27

I I think visually, if you were to look at if you're walking in the desert and you would kind of see the tabernacle at a distance, and you would see this cloud just over the Holy of Holies, right? And imagine that image today, if if the presence of God was like this physical column of smoke or cloud over all of his uh his children. Like you walk into church and it's like just full of smoke, or there's no smoke at all, or cloud, whatever. Yeah, yeah. You know, you know, you know what I mean? Just visually, just it How we would see things. And the reason I say that is because people knew when the presence of God was present in the Old Testament. Yes. And now there is no column of fire or no cloud of smoke. You know, there's just your witness.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:16

And that is just your testimony. It's not just your testimony, but now it's it's up to us. It's it's how we live our life, how we how we devote ourselves to the things of God that is bearing witness that his presence is with us. Yeah. And it's the way that we live. Like you're saying, it's it's the way that we handle conflict, the way that we interact with our coworkers, with our family members. And these are the things that represent the presence of God in our lives. Are you a transformed person? Are you just a churchgoer or have you been transformed by the presence of God? And that's one of the things that the Levites that that separates them, I believe personally, that separated the Levites to us as Christians in this time of age after Jesus, yeah, is that they were consecrated, they were born into this priesthood. And so the tribe of Levi, they were set aside. That's right. And so they grow, they're they're taught, they're they're they're formed and shaped into these are the rituals that you have to learn. These are the you know, you have to learn this, this is what you're gonna do. And I'm sure at certain ages they were taught to do certain responsibilities in the tabernacle. And you know, but but now that's not the case. Yeah, and and the if we were to do that now, and certain religions do that, yeah, we call that religion, right? Absolutely easy because we have to do the we have to go through the the tasks of what we need to do in order to please the Lord. Yes, because that was what they were trying to do. They were trying to make sure that they could atone for the sins of the people, right? And now that's not the case because Jesus became that sacrifice for us, yeah. And so now we through his righteousness, you know, God sees us. And it almost makes it too easy for us to just live life like I'm all good.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

Yeah. Yeah, that's good, man. Yeah, that's a great point. I mean, there is a there's a preparation. I mean, manifestation, it was it preceded or it was followed by preparation. So like God's glory wouldn't just manifest and just show up arbitrarily.

SPEAKER_02 24:22

It was a dedicated life.

Preparing Space Without Performing

SPEAKER_00 24:23

Yes. There were things that took place and it was because of reverence. It wasn't transactional, it was relational. It was like, Lord, we love you, we honor you so much. Hey, we have we we prepared a place and it pleased the Lord. That's why the glory cloud would fall. I mean, that Shekana glory, that kebab was there because God was pleased with their worship. And I love how you have a note here. You know, as worship leaders, you know, we prepare environments, but we do not manufacture moments. You can't arm twist God into revealing himself. What you can do is you can prepare a place where he's welcome.

SPEAKER_02 24:57

Well, you can carry him with you. Yeah, in the sense that that's what that's what that illustration, that image of imagine people could see the Shekinah glory of God on your life. Yes, physically, absolutely, how they would respond differently. But because they can't, yeah, now the way you live, the way you lead, the way you talk, the way you prepare, right, that actually matters even more.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Even more so. Even more. Absolutely. And what and to your point, I think this is why, you know, crashtologically, Hebrews talks about Jesus being our great and final high priest after the order of this character named Melchizedek. And we don't know who the who this person is. He's the key the king of Salem, and we can't trace his mother and father's genealogy, but he is some, he's this almost sort of mythic figure, this this deity type of person, this godlike figure who Abraham connects with. And it says that the tribe of Levi was in Abraham's loins. And so, like, even the tribe of Levi submits to this high priest who's greater. Jesus is the greater high priest. And and what why is to your point, why is that important? Because that wasn't about religion. Abraham was honoring him. That was relationship. It said he tithed to him, he gave to him out of reverence and and relationship. So it was always about the heart. It was never about what you can do because the danger of having steps is that you then begin to think, oh, it's because of me. You then begin to think, oh, well, I'm the reason why the glory clouds, I'm the reason why God's manifest, I'm the reason why all these moves of God, all these salvations and these life changes, and people are getting delivered. It's because I did all the steps. And that happens a lot in church.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

Yes. A lot of preachers, they'll be like, I look, I could preach, I brought it this week. Yeah. Or, you know, man, I I led worship this week, and man, like people were on the floor crying, and you know, there there was no dry eye. And I hear comments like that, yeah, like that's great, you know, and but it has nothing to do with us. I remember early on my in my marriage with my wife. She I I asked her after a service, it was Sunday, obviously, and I go, How was it? You know, how was worship? And her response to me was it was good, but it wasn't for you. And and like I wanted to know, like, how did it feel? Did the team do good? Like, she's like, Yeah, it was great, but it wasn't for you. Like, and then that was probably like what our first second year of marriage, and it just stuck with me. And and I've the Holy Spirit's never let me forget that moment that you know, a lot of times we we especially here, because we're we have a culture of feedback at life points, and so we tend to give immediate feedback a lot of times. So some people push back on that, but we just we have four services at our roster campuses and different services, so we're always talking as a staff, as a team, hey, we need to fix this, improve that, or hey, don't say that like that's weird, yeah, you know, or or all this type of feedback, and we have to be careful not to make it about the response of the people, yeah. Uh it's it's more about how are we serving the people best? Yeah, and and you know, are we doing that? Are we serving the people best and preparing these environments? And but it's not about are they responding? Do they like what we're doing? Right, you know, those are other conversations that we have later, but but if we're doing this to get a response, to get an applause from people, right? It's the wrong motive.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

Absolutely. What's you yeah, it's the wrong audience, right? Yeah, my my my lens is is distorted. I need to shift my lens. It's it's the audience of one. I remember my former pastor telling me that, like, son, when you're up there, when if you're if you're speaking, if you're leading, you know, when you're playing guitar, like you are doing that for an audience of one. Like it's if is is the Lord pleased. And so what I hear you saying, Pastor Omer, is that hey, what we want to do is we want to we want to put Jesus on full display. Hey, if we've done that, it doesn't matter if anybody, if people stay in their seats, if we've put Jesus on full display, he's pleased with that. Yeah, I had I had a pastor once tell me, I'm sorry, I cut you off.

SPEAKER_02 28:44

You go he because I preached, and again, a lot, a lot of stories, because I learned a lot when I moved overseas about myself. Grew up in the Pentecostal church, and so you know, I go down there, I'm a thinker naturally, like I think, and so when I write, I I write more thought-provoking statements. But I was taught just in the churches that I grew up with, like everyone responds, everyone says, Amen, hallelujah, praise the Lord, glory at the end. Like, you know, all the hype in church, and which is cool. But then I'm I'm in Australia and I'm preaching, and I'm like looking out the room, like no one's saying anything, like everyone's so quiet. And then I'm like, maybe I'm doing something wrong. And I'm grateful for our pastor there because he he's like, Hey, just so you know, like, like I I guess tell you're waiting for a response. He goes, but what you don't realize is they're actually taking notes. Yeah, he goes, You're you're causing them to think and reflect on what you're saying, which he goes, it's probably more powerful for them to reflect on what you're saying and how they can apply it to their lives versus them just giving you an empty amen.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

Yeah, man, that's good.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

And and so then that that taught me because because I had dealt with the worship side, my wife began that she's like, you know, it's not about you, it's about God. Yeah, but then once I started speaking in church, I almost wanted the same response that I would see other preachers like why are they shouting? Why is nobody running around the church? You know, that type of thing. But but but this pastor, he was able to tell me, like, hey, it's a good thing. Like sometimes no response is a is a good response because the Lord is dealing with them. And the reality, what that exposed to me is that God is working. All we got to do is say, Hey, God, I'm willing and available. And when he calls you into your assignment, like we talked last week, when you step into your assignment and you're just obedient and you open your mouth and you do what God's called you to do, he's gonna, it's his anointing on your life. He anoints you, he gives you the gift, and then you operate in it, and you got to trust that he's gonna do what he needs to do with what you're saying, with what you're doing. Yes, and that your own, your own desires to see things happen, even move forward. You know, we want to see the church grow. We want to see people on the, you know, just giving their life to Jesus or just laying on the floor or whatever, that you can lay those desires down. That's it. And hey, Holy Spirit, do what you want to do. Yes, do what you have to do. Yeah, you know, and then just be willing to let him do that. Yeah, and so again, going back to the the fact that in churches, it's easy for for the platform to become a place of performance and to expect response when it's not our place to do that.

Worship As A Conversation

SPEAKER_00 31:19

Yeah, no, I love that, man. I I I appreciate that. And I think that's a good challenge there. You're having me think through, you know, Psalm 100. And like like you were saying, like when when our when our viewpoint is skewed, it becomes again about about the people instead of the presence, right? And Psalm 100, shout, shout with joy to the Lord all the earth. So that again, it's this this is directing upward, it's upward and outward, it's not it's not people word. Worship the Lord with gladness, come before him, singing with joy, acknowledge that the Lord is God. He made us and we are his. We are his people, the sheep of his pastor. Here it is. Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, enter into his courts with praise. Give thanks to him and praise his name, for the Lord is good, his unfailing love continues forever, his faithfulness continues to each generation. So when I'm in worship, whether whether I'm preaching, I'm teaching, all of that is for him. I'm saying, Lord, you are faithful, you are awesome. I'm here to extol your name. I I I like to think, again, I'm I'm not a singer. You know, I I serve, I play bass, but I I auditioned to sing, and I knew I was in trouble when they asked me, hey Willie, you have any other talents or skills, brother? You got anything else the Lord's calling you to? You know you're in trouble then when you sing. Hey man, is there anything else you feel like the Lord's calling you to? Just pray about it. We started asking that question first, then just because of me, I trailblazing. And uh so I lost my train of thought. Okay, so just yeah, just yeah, just thinking through worship. And I like to think of worship when when I'm on platform, right? Serving, I I like to think of worship as I'm having a one-on-one conversation with the Lord, and I'm just inviting people in to listen to what we're talking about. Yeah, like that's what it is. What I mean by that is, and I remember sharing this with the team one time, like you need to worship the Lord, whether there is one person in that room or a hundred, and think of it as you having a one-on-one conversation. Like that language that it's not worship the Lord, praise his name. So, God, you are faithful. And so I think about like, let's say you and your wife, Lori, are having a conversation, right? And I just happen to walk into the room. You think about how just natural that is. Well, you're not gonna just stop talking because I came in, you know, you're just gonna keep talking. Oh, okay, I'm learning. Like I'm learning about you, learning about her. And it's the same way. That's why the theology piece, I love what you have for serviceful communicates theology. I think in worship, that's how people are learning about the Lord because they they see us talking to Him. We never think about worship that way because we because we make it performative, we make it about the people. But if you just have a heart that says, Man, Lord, these lyrics, this is my message to you, this is my communication to you. Then people come in and they say, Oh, like, like if again, you and your wife are having a conversation, and let's say I hear you thanking her for cooking you lunch, for making your lunch. One thing that's gonna communicate to me about your wife is that she is service-oriented. She has a servant, so I'm like, Oh, wow, that was really nice of her. She's really nice for doing that. So imagine somebody walks into service and they hear you singing, God, you are great. God, you are awesome, God, you are almighty, God, thank you for saving me. They're gonna say, huh. The Lord must be powerful, the Lord must be mighty, and the Lord must be a savior.

SPEAKER_03 34:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

They both they've just learned about God because you focused on having a one-on-one conversation with Him. Yeah.

Staying Fresh Across Services

SPEAKER_02 34:47

I think probably speaking to worship leaders specifically here, or people that serve in church. In our context, again, our campuses do multiple services on most of our campuses. And the the challenge or the the danger, I'd rather say I use that word, the danger is that the beginning of the day can begin really innocent and really heartfelt. Like I'm gonna pour it all out, I'm gonna serve, I'm gonna smile, I'm gonna, I'm gonna wave at people. But then you do it one service, you sing the songs like Lord, and you're on the platform and you're crying and because you feel God's presence. But then there's the the the sermon and the transition between services, and then you take your bathroom break, and then you go get snacks, and then all this stuff happens in between. You're checking your phone, you're on Instagram, and then you got to do it again. Yeah, and the danger is that it becomes a task, and so you begin the day very heartfelt, yeah, and then all of a sudden it becomes this thing I have to repeat three, four times a day, and then I could I can leave after the fourth service. That's good. And then so then keep talking, man.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

You're you're on mine. I'm gonna look for the scripture. You keep on talking.

SPEAKER_02 36:10

And then so what happens is you begin your your your incense unto God at the beginning of the day on a Sunday is so pure, it's it's so pleasing to the Lord, but by the end of the day, it stinks because now it's full of yourself. Now you're just trying to get through the day. And and when I say it stinks, it's because it's not even about him anymore at that point. It's it's about, hey, I just need to get through the day. And and the way to gauge that is like like, are you being moved every time that you get to worship God? Are you being moved every time you're in front of a different crowd, a different audience that comes into your church? Like, is there's is are you in awe of God, of his presence, of his might? And you know, and so that I'm reminded of that all the time. Easter, Easter's coming up in a few weeks. I remember Easter last year. We restructured how we did the service, but every single time, and that I'll never forget that Easter of the 2025 because every single service that we sang one more day, yeah, like I couldn't even I couldn't even sing the song. Yeah, you gave me one more day, yeah, to say I love you, you know, all that. Thank you, Jesus, uh the elevation song, or Sons of Sunday, or whatever the name of the group is. It's a powerful song, reminder of the love of Christ. Yes, but every time we would sing it, like I was just in tears, and I would get off the platform and I was just like broken in the sense of like, God, thank you for one more day. But like, and I'm being honest, like that's only happened a few times. So I'm I'm not saying this because I'm like pointing fingers, I'm saying this because even me, myself, like we can get into this place where where after we do the do it the first time, then we're just like, all right, I just gotta repeat. But what if, you know, Pastor Mike's been talking about this, like, like God's a God of new beginnings, God is doing something fresh. We just spoke through I Isaiah, you know, or I'm actually preaching on Isaiah 43 in a few weeks. Yeah. And you know that he's he's doing a new thing. Can't you see it? Right. Can't you perceive it? And and what if every opportunity, every service that you get to serve in church, yeah, is is something new, something fresh, a new life God wants to touch. Yeah. And so how what can we do again? Because as Levites, in the sense, like we want to prepare our hearts. How do you prepare between services? How do you prepare? Yeah, you know, it's one thing to prepare from Monday to Sunday, sure, but then once you pour it out and you gotta stop and then pour it out again, yeah. Like, what do you do so you don't lose yourself in it and then not give God the best every single time?

Keeping Your Eyes On Him

SPEAKER_00 38:50

I think the answers in in Revelation 4. It talks about these four living creatures that are flying around the throne. And what's interesting, it says each of them have six wings, and their wings are full of eyes all around and within. And let me just stop there. So their so their wing, I thought, man, their eyes are full, their wings are full of eyes outward and within. And just thinking their eyes are always on the Lord. This translation says Day and night, every time they behold him, they never cease to say. Some translations miss that part, depending on the manuscript. When they behold him, they never cease to say, holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty who was and is and is to come. I think what you do in between services is you keep your eye on the Lord. And I love what you touched on, Pastor Yarman. When so what does that mean practically? Hey, listen, don't believe your own height. Somebody comes to you, pats you on the back, oh man, when you sung that solo, or man, when you play, I just love the it's just man, you're just so fun to watch. Don't believe your own height. Because what that does is that causes you to take your eye off the Lord. And that, even if it's momentarily, that caused you, hey, behold him. And look at what it says that they do. Now, they're flying day and night. That's why I said last on the last episode, guys. Like, you have these angelic creatures who see the Lord 24-7. They it says day and night, which is so funny because those are relative terms. Ain't no night in heaven. Yeah. And and it's it's just unceasing. And they're they and it says, holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty who was and is. And it's almost like they're seeing him for the first time. It's almost like I imagine they have all these wings and all these eyes. It's like, okay, with the with the eye on the top right wing, they see him. Holy, holy, holy, with the eye on the top left wing, holy, holy, holy, with the eye on the middle wing, holy, holy, holy. Like they just every time there's another facet, there's another level, there's another layer to God. Oh my God, there's another reason to praise you. And I think in between services, it's good for you to steal away because you got a few moments and just behold them again and just say, God, you are holy, holy, holy. Because I one thing I cannot do is I can't keep my eye on him and on Elmer at the same time. Like, I'm looking at this camera right now, and I cannot at the same time look at this camera and look at you. So whatever I focus on, that's what's gonna get my attention, and that's what's gonna get my worship.

unknown 41:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:28

So if it's on the praises and if it's on the attaboys, well then okay, I'll seek that. Yeah. But if it's on him, I'll seek him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:34

And worship is about pouring out. Absolutely. And so as much as we're serving people, we're we're pouring our worship out to God. Yes. So we can't worship people. We can't. And so that's why systems, and Pastor Mike says systems support ministries. They don't lead it. Yep. Yeah, they don't lead it. It's not the ministry's there to support systems. Right. And so whatever your structure is or your your the way that you run your department or your your your teams, like people is they're the first, you know, that's your objective. Your systems are there for the people, but your worship is unto God. You're right. We do this for the Lord. Yes. Like, and and that's that's the danger too, that we're we're we can get so busy with working for God that we forget we're that we're here for him. And we're his a sacrifice unto him.

SPEAKER_00 42:19

That's right. Absolutely. And then and I I love that because that's where the feeling is. I mean, to your point, that's what I think is the strange dichotomy in the kingdom. Because the worship is pouring out, right? The worship is pouring out, and it is emptying ourselves, but then we're filled. That's what's crazy. Like it's in my offering the sacrifice, because the very next verse says this and whenever the living creatures give glory and honor, thanks to him who is seated on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the 24 elders, so now there's a group of leaders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before him. I mean, there's just this reciprocal effect, but you don't ever sense in this scene that these creatures or these elders feel like they're losing something. That's what it that is what's so beautiful about worship. It's not about losing something. Like we can't think of sacrifice in the sense of losing something. I like to think of it as creating space. Like I'm actually creating margin for the Lord to fill me up. When I empty me of me, there's so much more now available for the Lord to fill up.

SPEAKER_02 43:27

Well, you go back to the tabernacle. The sacrifice was the entryway. Yes. And so it opened the door for them to be able to go into the next place. Yes. And so when you do serve, it's it's it's your offering to God. All right, I'm gonna serve people, I'm gonna love them, I'm gonna do everything you've called. May the fruit of the spirit just just pour out of me right now. Absolutely. And then, but it's but it's not because I want people to be impressed with me. It's like God, because this is unto you. Yeah, and I want to do my best, and you know, I want to be the best witness and representative of you, yeah, two people. And so It's for the people. Yes. But in the name of Jesus. In the name of Jesus. Right?

SPEAKER_00 44:05

Wow. But man, I'm filled because of it. Like, man, I'm going to tell you like, there's no other activity on the planet that fills you as you're doing it. There's just not, I mean, like when you're pouring out and giving yourself with doing it, like there's an emptying. And that thing doesn't, it doesn't reward you for that. But man, when you worship God, when you're in his presence, you get like I love that part about the access, man. You're you're feeling, and then it's Psalm 23, it's David, my cup on KGV, runneth over. Runneth over. Come on, somebody.

SPEAKER_01 44:34

Come on. Come on, Lord.

SPEAKER_02 44:37

Hallelujah. Come on, man. This is great, man. This is good stuff, brother. What are we wrapping up with?

SPEAKER_00 44:50

I think there's a good couple of questions we can ask just for you to ponder. So personally, I want you to ask yourself, how do you approach worship? Just how do you approach the presence of the Lord? Are you are you casual with it or are you intentional? Again, to your point, that the system, the old sacrificial system, has been done away with. But what has not been done away with is sacrifice altogether. Romans 12. We ought to be a living sacrifice. So how do you approach? Do you just feel like you can just enter God's presence any way you want, irreverently, and you can think of him any way you want, or do you say, man, this is the king and king of the Lord Lords? He's my friend. And it it is a privilege, what an honor. I get to enter into. So that that's that's one there. And then even leading and in structurally speaking, organizationally in your church, how do you approach a service planning? Do you look at service planning as the means or the end? Is the goal to have a you know a tight 65 and be, you know, you know, if we we sing our three and then we we have our word and then we're done? Or do you say, Lord, we're we're planning this with excellence because we want you to have the margin to do what you do best, and that's to change lives. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:01

And he could do it in 65 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 46:03

Absolutely. I I used to be like, like, man, we need more time.

SPEAKER_02 46:07

Right. Like we need to do this and that. Yeah. We got to tarry. Man, but yeah, we gotta tarry in the presence of the Lord. And we're you know, we're the the ushers don't got no modesty clause. I'm like, what's going on here at life point? You know, like they got there gotta be baskets somewhere.

SPEAKER_00 46:20

There gotta be some baskets. Somebody got a sheriff's start with a white glove somewhere now, Yoman. I know it's a Pentecostal church.

SPEAKER_02 46:26

Yeah, but but we every month people are getting baptized. Yes, every week people are giving their lives to Jesus. Every week someone's joining a small group. Yes, and and for us, it's become a norm because we're seeing so much uh life change and transformation, but you you visit other places and it's like like it's a different story. Yeah, and so it it's a great reminder to me that the Lord is is moving and and we have to continue to get out of the way and let God do what he wants to do, right? Yes, sir. And but part of it is not not not so much removing ourselves, but allowing God to use us. And and that requires being humble, yeah, letting putting pride down. You know, when we talked about being a sacrifice, it's it's I I think it starts with your pride. Because if there's any ounce of pride in you, this is the worship and leadership podcast. And so those of you listening, we we we're not just sharing information in hopes that somebody's listening and and that this is helpful for somebody. No, we we hope that if you're even spending time listening to this, that you're able to apply this to your life and realize that hey, I gotta change some things in my life. Yes, you know, it because you're a leader, amen. And even even with your own kids, and I've been emphasizing this a lot with our teams lately, like like even if you you don't lead other people, but you got kids, right? They're watching you. Yes, they're watching how you speak, they're watching how you interact, how you serve in church, right? You know, if you accept or decline immediately, or you wait to the last second, they're picking up on all your patterns. Yeah, so good. And so they're gonna step into their own version of their relationship with God, their own tabernacle per se, as they're growing up based on the pattern that you're creating for them. Yes, and so the Lord creates a pattern for us. Our goal as we're discipling people is is to create that pattern for people here on earth. Yeah, we talked about that map last week, yes, sir. You know, mandate, assignment, and purpose. And so, and we're gonna work on that. Yeah, but our goal as a church is to develop leaders and to grow intentionally and to you know, lead people to become fully devoted followers of Jesus. And so it's not just for you as a parent, but like, how are you doing that for your kids? Because what what are the patterns that they're picking out? Does church even matter to them because it doesn't matter to you? You know, like does community, Christ-centered community not matter to them? Yeah, small groups don't matter to them. If it doesn't, it's maybe because they the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Come on, you know, and so so again, we're not here to point fingers, but we do want you to be challenged, yeah, for you to reflect on like what is my relationship with God look like? Absolutely. He's gone through so many just efforts on his on his behalf to come to us. Absolutely, and that's what we're talking about the tabernacle.

SPEAKER_00 49:12

Yes, and he's removed every restriction, every barrier. There's nothing, there's no avail. It starts God is over creation first. Yes, then he's among creation. Now he's in creation, he's inside of us. My Lord, if that ain't you have people on your people in your own family, ain't that committed to you. That people in your own house. Y'all just hit the like button if you got somebody in your house right now that's like less committed than the Lord. Seriously. Man, I mean, you will never find a love like that. I mean, I get it why David, and David is not indwelt by the spirit. The spirit don't permanently inhabit David, but he has enough sense to know. He says, Surely, the goodness and the mercy of the Lord shall follow me.

SPEAKER_02 49:55

And you and I don't think you need the Holy Spirit to understand that. And that's why when David, I know his situation where you're talking about is the Holy Spirit wasn't in David. Right. It he rested on the but we're in a different season, right? And so, but he could still see the goodness of God.

SPEAKER_00 50:12

That that that's that that's the point that I'm making. It's like he had enough sense to recognize. That's what I'm saying. The theology for him was different. That the covenant reality was different for him, but he recognized, man, God is in hot pursuit of me because here's a man who lied, stole, and murdered. Yep. And he's like, I recognize the Lord is still after me. Man. And so do you recognize as a new covenant, blood-bought, spirit-filled Christian, do you recognize, man, that God is still in hot pursuit of you?

unknown 50:40

Come on.

SPEAKER_00 50:41

He do you do you just recognize that? Or are you spinning your wheels? Are you trying to figure out how you can make service pop? Are you trying to figure out how you can elicit a certain response? Which one is it? I'm gonna tell you right now, I think it was LaCrae who said, you know, when you live for the approval of man, you'll die from their rejection. And I'm like, why would you do that when you have a God who has shown you and he has shown you definitively that you are welcome and you are accepted each and every time, all day, every day, morning, midday, or night. It doesn't matter. Come on. Man, you where would you go to find a love like that?

SPEAKER_01 51:14

Come on, somebody. Just in the Lord. Just in the Lord, man. Just in the Lord, praise the Lord. Praise God.

SPEAKER_02 51:20

Man, God is good. He's so good. Okay, so we have. I hope this has helped.

SPEAKER_00 51:25

I I I I believe it has. I believe if it's just one person out there that's that's been helped. It this is it's a blessing.

Sponsor Bit And Final Goodbye

SPEAKER_02 51:30

Amen. Amen. And last week we introduced, well, actually, last season at the end of the season, we introduced the new segment where we we introduce our sponsors.

SPEAKER_00 51:41

Yes, our corporate sponsors.

SPEAKER_02 51:42

Corporate sponsors. Yes. And so today we're gonna talk about one of our sponsors. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 51:48

So I'll I'll let you today's episode of the Worship and Leadership Podcast has been brought to you by Bread and Fish Catering. Have you found yourself hosting an event where you had more fellowship than food? Have you found yourself in situations where people were giving you the Holy Ghost stank eye because all of the entrees had been picked over and eaten? Bread and fish catering are on the scene, and they have what I like to call the kingdom multiplicative effect. For the low price of$1.99, you get the two-piece five low combo. And as the team deploys and sets it up, irrespective of how large a gathering is, whether you have three people or 300, their motto is that it is somehow, always enough. No more wondering if you're gonna have enough food to eat or enough bellies to feed. Bread and fish catering. Somehow, always enough.

SPEAKER_01 53:16

Always enough.

SPEAKER_02 53:19

Oh man, some of these are hilarious. We will share all of them at some point. This is awesome. Hey, but once again, thank you so much for spending time with us here on the Worship and Leadership podcast. Yeah. And it's a joy for us to be able to spend this hour and really just have a conversation about things that we're passionate and things that we're we we're seeing in the life of our church. And we want to be a blessing to you and to those of you that you get to lead and do life with. And so once again, thank you for being a part. Share this podcast with your friends. Uh leave us a review, and we hope you're blessed. And until next time, peace out.