Stop Leading Songs. Start Leading People

A worship leader with a mic is also holding a kind of pastoral responsibility, whether we mean to or not. People watch how we carry ourselves, how we talk about Jesus, how we handle pressure, and how we treat them when the music stops. So we’re asking a direct question: do we see ourselves as musicians who serve at church, or as under-shepherds who help care for souls? 

John 10 raises the stakes with the “good shepherd” versus the hired hand. We get honest about paid musicians, church culture, and how quickly a gig mindset can creep in if there’s no discipleship, accountability, or vision. We share practical leadership tools like auditions plus interviews, asking spiritual formation questions, and creating healthy gates that protect both the team and the congregation. If you lead worship, serve on a creative team, or oversee volunteers, this is a blueprint for worship leadership, church leadership, and pastoral care that stays people-centered and Jesus-centered. 

Transcript

Easter Joke And Resurrection Joy

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Let's go.

SPEAKER_05 0:11

Hey, what's going on, everybody, and welcome to the Worship and Leadership Podcast. My name is Elmer Gunions Jr. And like always, my friend the one and only Willie C. Simpson.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

What is up, Mr. Bones?

SPEAKER_00 0:23

What's up, man?

SPEAKER_01 0:24

What's up, man? I'm excited to be here. Yo, Elmer, man. What's up? We had an awesome Easter weekend. It was great. And you know, I'm inspired, man. It actually inspired me to come up with a really good Easter joke. Okay. Are you ready?

SPEAKER_05 0:40

I'm ready. Do I need to have water in my mouth?

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Yeah, you're gonna have to have water in your mouth, man. Because I'm telling you, this one is hilarious.

SPEAKER_05 0:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

You ready?

SPEAKER_00 0:50

I'm ready for you. Oh, I try.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

My lord, he's excited.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

Excited.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

Here we go. Let's go. Knock knock.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Nobody's there because the tomb is empty in Jesus' name.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

It's not appear because he has risen from the dead. When he died, he rose again. He truly died. He wasn't just asleep. He didn't take no stomach. He didn't need no just less than him. Let me tell you something right now. He wasn't just dreaming. He wasn't in the combo. He was dead. But he's alive. And he is on the throw. He will never die again. He will never get sleepy. You will get slumber. He is always on your stop.

SPEAKER_05 1:40

Let's go.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Let's go.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Fired up. Let me tell you something. If you ain't fired up, son, it's because your wood is wet.

SPEAKER_05 1:49

Hey, you didn't even let me say who's there. Because it don't matter. He ain't there.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Oh, let's go. Come on, somebody. Well, welcome to the podcast. Oh my god. I love it. That's so good, man.

SPEAKER_05 2:07

It's the week after Easter. Yeah, man. We're still celebrating.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

We're still celebrating. Come on.

SPEAKER_05 2:11

Every Sunday's Resurrection Sunday.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_05 2:13

Come on.

Worship Leader As Pastor Mindset

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Man. Well, Elmer, we're in episode five of the Worship and Leadership Podcast. And I want to thank you all for tuning in. And so today, we're going to be talking about the worship leader as the pastor. Man. I just wonder if you, those of you that that do engage in leading worship for your teams, have you ever thought of yourself as a pastor, as a shepherd? And if you haven't, we're here today to help you change that mindset.

SPEAKER_05 2:41

Yeah, I remember joining the worship team at my church when I was 12 years old in Sun Valley, California.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 2:49

At a Fountain of Life Church. And I remember at 12 years old, you're not thinking, I'm going to be on that platform to pastor people. I'm I'm just, I was like, I get to play an instrument, you know, I love music, and I'm gonna be a part of the team of what they get to do. And so no one tells you when you're getting on a platform or joining a team of that sort that there's a greater responsibility outside of just playing music or just being part of what they do, you know, what you do at the church. And and ultimately, big picture. We we always tell our teams here, you know, you're if you're a leader. Yeah, if you're on this platform, you're a leader because people are are looking to you for direction. And and it's not just so much direction in a song, but yeah, it's it's in the way you live. Right. And so why do you get to sing and and express what you what you're seeing so freely and so with such an assurance? Yeah, and it's because we we hope our teams are not just singing these songs and playing the songs just out of out of because they practice it or rehearsed it. You know, we we don't live life out of things we rehearse, it's it's actually something that they they're living, yeah, and these songs are alive in them. And so Absolutely, yeah, man. I didn't no one ever asked me this question when I was twelve.

Ezekiel 34 Warning To Shepherds

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Absolutely. To your point, because again, you know, at our last episode, we were thinking through we tend to think of worship as this vocation, and we think of, you know, being a musician or being a singer, and so we make the focus, you know, the the giftedness or the ability or the talent, and we don't think first about heart or even mindset or or or responsibility or role. We don't think about it typically from a spiritual standpoint, we think about it from a more practical standpoint. Yes, we do want to be excellent and we do want to be proficient at what we're doing. Like, yes, if you're a singer, you want to sing well, you want to do get better. As a musician, I want to get better at my craft, but that can't be the end goal. The end goal has to be the people, it has to be good for the people. And so, obviously, you know, we want to look to scripture because we want to have a theological lens, we want to have a theological and a theological bent about this. And so we're gonna look at Ezekiel chapter 34, and the prophet Ezekiel he has several different oracles against the nation of Israel because of their insolence and because of their disobedience, because of their idolatry, their immorality. So uh most prophecies are specifically like against the nation of Israel at large. But chapter 34 is unique because he's calling out the leaders. Yeah, he's calling out what he calls the shepherds, and and so he starts here in verse 1, Ezekiel chapter 34. The word of the Lord came to me. This is Ezekiel. It says, Son of man prophesy against the shepherds of Israel. Prophesy and say to them, even to the shepherd, thus says the Lord God, Ah, shepherds of Israel, who have been feeding yourselves. He says, Should not shepherds feed the sheep? So he's reminding them, hey, can I can I just inform you and realign your heart? It ain't about you. This it's about the people. You can't think about and put yourself first. You know, there's a book I think by Simon Sinek where he says, leaders eat last. He's like, You've been fattening yourselves. You need to feed the people and make sure. Verse 3, he says, You eat the fat, you clothe yourselves with the wool, you slaughter the fat ones, but you do not feed the sheep. The weak you have not strengthened, the sick you have not healed, the injured you have not bound up, the strayed you have not brought back, the lost you have not sought, and with force and harshness you have ruled them. Listen to what he says, verse 5. So they were scattered because there was no shepherd. And they became food for all the wild beasts. My sheep were scattered. They wandered all over the mountains and on every high hill. My sheep were scattered all over the face of the earth with none to search or seek for them. And so notice so it's it's it's he's using this imagery. Some scholars believe that he was talking to literal shepherds who were who were poorly doing their job, but then you see how he switches it back and he's he says, My sheep. So now he's talking about people. And so he's talking to these leaders, these probably these priests, these rulers, these judges, these, these, these, these leaders who have been set in place over the people, and he's calling them out because they're leading poorly. And you see the result. The people are scattered, they're being driven away, they're being driven away from each other, and they're being driven away from the Lord. Yeah, and so you can see this weightiness that we do have when we're worship leading.

Ministry Beyond The Platform

SPEAKER_05 7:12

Yeah. And again, in in the context of a worship leader or a worship singer or musician in church, it doesn't feel like, oh, I I need to carry this weight. And but that's why we're here to tell you you should. Yeah. Like it is the responsibility that that us as individuals that get the the privilege of being on platforms in front of our churches and congregants, attendees, that we're we're not just there, we're not, we're not just up there to to entertain. Yeah, we're not up there just to fill time before the sermon. We're we're engaging in in in leading, in shepherding. And so we talked about last time in one of our episodes. Everything from the song selection is leading people. Yes. And even the way we do it, and then and then even off the platform, and this is where a lot of a lot of teams get it wrong, is we we built green rooms, and we think that that's that's where we go hang out after we finish the worship set. But the greatest ministry we the greatest ministry and impact we'll make on people's lives is not singing, running, you know, all these crazy runs or playing incredible arrangements. It's touching people in the lobbies and connecting with them and praying for them and hearing their stories and sharing with them and doing life with people in small groups. And this is what the greatest impact you make. Because then as you go and you stand on a platform in front of them to lead them in these moments, now they're not, they don't feel that they're just being told what to do by a stranger. Now they're being pastored because now there is relational equity. There, there is a connection between you and the person that's sitting in the auditorium. Yeah, and so that that's so important, you know, for leaders in general. You you it doesn't just apply to worship leaders. This is for any type of leader. If you're wanting to move people, before you can move them somewhere, you have to touch their heart before you get them to a place that you want to get them, because that's the objective as a leader. You want them to grow or move them into the next step of our vision as a church or even for their own life for their own good. You know, you have to connect with them right where they are for anything.

God Seeks Scattered People

SPEAKER_01 9:20

Absolutely. And to your point, Pastor Elmer, I love how you said it goes beyond the platform. It really is a lifestyle. It really is a heart that says, Man, at the end of the day, man, I want heaven to be expanded. I want the kingdom to grow. I want outsiders to be brought inside. I want strangers to become friends and then family, right? And so we really see here from scripture again. This is the heart that we have to have if we want to be good, effective leaders. You know, Pastor Mike says that the heart of the house is the heart of a shepherd, right? The heart of any church is the heart of a shepherd. And I love hearing how the Lord He says, you know, sometimes he's like, you know, hey, I'm I guess I'm just gonna have to do it myself. So he moves on down. Again, we're in Exodus 34, verse 11. Again, he's chastising these shepherds because they are poorly leading. They're mistreating the sheep, they're beating the sheep instead of feeding the sheep. Ezekiel. What did I say? He said Exodus. Well, it was an E-word. You know what? Some of y'all need to go read Exodus in Jesus' name. 34? Yeah, read Exodus 34. Ezekiel 34, verse 11. And it's subtitled, The Lord God will seek them out. So I'm listening to what God says. He, for thus says the Lord God, He says, Behold, God says, I myself will search for my sheep and will seek them out. As a shepherd seeks out his flock when he is among his sheep that have been scattered. So God is like, if y'all aren't going to do it, I'm gonna do it because the heart of God is the heart of a shepherd. He's going after the lost and after the missing. So they look at what he says, Seek out my sheep. And he says, I will rescue them from all places where they have been scattered. Verse 13, and I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from countries, because again, they're in foreign lands or not their homeland, and will bring them into their own land. Listen when he says, and I will feed them on the mountains of Israel by the ravines and in all the inhabited places. I will feed them with good pasture and on the mountain heights of Israel, there they shall lie down in good grazing land. Verse 15, I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep. I will make them lie down. Verse 16, I will seek the lost, I will bring back the portrayed, I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, and the fat and the strong I will destroy, I will feed them in justice. And this is the heart of the shepherd. Look at all this language. I'm gonna seek, I'm gonna save, I'm gonna bind up, I'm gonna heal, I'm gonna restore, I'm gonna rescue, I'm gonna bring them back together. And this has to be our heart. We have to emulate the heart of the good shepherd as under-shepherd. Now, to be clear, we are not God, so we can't do these things. But what we can do is we can co-labor with the Lord in doing that. So you can be a part of somebody's healing and restoration by putting your hand on their shoulder, by checking in with them, by loving them, by not being so quick to move past the lobby to get back onto the platform, that to stop and pray with someone. That right there is the Lord using you to heal and restore that person. Yeah, you know, and this is what I love about Easter. It's for for the for the church at large, like the the universal church, it's probably the most evangelistic Sunday of the year. And we have a wonderful opportunity, Pastor Elmer, to do all of these things where people come in and like, man, I feel like an interloper, I feel like a stranger, an interloper, I feel like a stranger, I feel like an outsider. Regardless of the church size, you're like, man, I don't do I fit? Do I am I welcome? And man, when you see that person and you say, Man, we're so glad you're here. Hey, welcome. What's your name? Just asking somebody what their name is. Hey, how long have you been coming? Is this your first time? You're doing Ezekiel 34. You are helping to restore that person. He's God says, I'm gonna bring them back in from these foreign lands. People come from all different walks of life, all different backgrounds, all different beliefs, all different uh varied experiences. And this is what it means to be the heart of a shepherd, to have the heart of a shepherd. Yes, I'm glad you can sing beautifully and that you can play articulately. That's awesome. But what people are gonna hold on to and what they're gonna remember is how you make them feel, how you treated them in the lobby, in the auditorium, in the parking lot, and in public. What if you saw these people again, you know, as you're out and about in the markets or in the, you know, just out in the neighborhood, in the community, and you see them and you're still shepherding them, and they feel like, man, this is my home, this is where I belong. That's why you have so again, like Pastor Homer said, if you've never thought of yourself as a pastor or a shepherd, we're here to tell you that you are, because this is what God wants us to do. This is the heart that God wants us to emulate.

SPEAKER_05 13:43

Yeah, it's one of the things our our pastor tells our teams is don't hang out in the lobby.

SPEAKER_03 13:49

Yeah.

Shepherding When You’re Introverted

SPEAKER_05 13:50

Like in the sense of like, don't hang out with each other and just kind of like just kind of, we're just talking, hey, how's your Saturday? You know, did you cut your grass? You know, like all those things. Like the Sundays is not about the staff. Sunday is not about, you know, those of you that serve as leaders at your churches. It's not about catching up with your other, you know, the people you you're leading with. It's about the people that are walking through the door that you you have no relationship with and connecting with them. And so that's that's important. And but that tends to be the hard part, yeah. Because, you know, again, no, no one tells you you're signing up to be in a role that requires some pastoral type of uh ability, right? You know, like and so say just I'm this is a question before we move on, because I I want to get to John 10. Sure. But what if like you're introvert, right? And all of a sudden, but you you're gifted in music, and there's a lot of people that they're gifted and they love being on a worship team on an instrument because they're behind everyone, right? Or even production teams because then they can kind of hide behind their equipment. I know for me, a lot of times an instrument is feels safe because I'm behind an instrument as I'm as I'm leading. Yeah. And so what if I'm not a people person and this is the mandate, this is the the the responsibility that is being asked of me.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

Yeah. No, that's great. Yeah. Well, to your point, man, that this is where we have to we have to shift the lens that we're looking through. I mean, that that's the lens of the flesh. And the flesh is always gonna be insufficient, the flesh is always gonna be powerless, the flesh can never ever fulfill God's word, can never fulfill God's commandments. So, to your point, and our humaneness, we're gonna think that, man, I'm tired, or I don't, I'm I'm not in the mood to do this, or man, I'm not as eloquent, I'm not a people peep uh people person, I'm not outgoing, I'm not an extrovert. Well, the Bible calls it the fruit of the spirit, not the fruit of the flesh. And so we have to be led by the spirit. Why? Well, because the spirit is the one who gives us life and gives us the ability to do things that are that in our flesh we couldn't do. And so that's where you have to start with saying, like, God, I'm I'm not naturally gifted at communicating, I'm really awkward in public spaces, I I'm an I'm an introvert, but Lord, this isn't about me. This is about them. And so that's where you just have to be humble enough to say, God, I'm gonna decrease and I want you to increase. That's number one. You cannot do the work of God without the enablement by the Spirit of God. That's number one. Number two, I think it helps to remember that you were on the other side of that conversation at one point in time. Like before you stepped on team in whatever capacity you're serving in, you were on the other side. You were that other, like you just mentioned. You were that other person who was a first-time guest, who was a visitor, who may have been an unbeliever, who may have been somebody that came in who felt scattered. And I want you to remember, just recall again how you were treated and what made you stay, how you were invited, and how you were embraced and welcomed and accepted, and how good that made you feel. I remember uh it was in 2010. Yeah, destiny had just been born, 2010. And the Lord had called us to another church. And we had a meeting with our with our prior pastor, and I mean we we did it all everything on the level, and he gave us our blessing and everything. And uh we attended uh another church, and I never would forget, it was on a Wednesday night, and we we walk into the doors, and I never would forget, Miss Gloria was there. She was she was a dream teamer and she was a door greeter, and she welcomed us, she gave us the biggest hug. Welcome, we're so glad you're we hadn't even told her our names. She didn't know that we were first-time guests, but I remember in that moment feeling so welcome, and I looked at Carolyn and I was like, We're home. Miss Gloria, man, I'm telling you, she was just amazing. She was amazing. And in that moment, that interaction, I mean, that's we stayed at that church for a decade, Pastor Elmer. You know, that I mean, got, you know, just plugged in in literally every single way that you could in that church. But we always referenced that night then and meeting Miss Gloria and her welcoming us in and realizing, wow, okay, like we're we're home. And it was it we the the pastor, the lead pastor, was actually the last person that we had met. Pastor Scott, and he was just, I mean, again, he's just an awesome, awesome leader, but he was the last person that we had met. And Pastor Mike says that oftentimes he says he's the last face that people see, he's the last voice that people hear. Yeah, it's the parking lot, it's first-time guests, it's kid point, it's greeters, it's people like the big red wall, it's coffee team, right? And and so I just want you to know, like you, you, you can use your voice in that regard and just remember number one, the spirit gives you the ability to do this. But number two, put yourself on the other side of the conversation and remember how food when you were welcome there.

Jesus Defines The Good Shepherd

Paid Musicians And Hireling Risks

SPEAKER_05 18:38

Yeah. I love it. I love it. I love John 10 when Jesus tells us John 10, 11 through 14. He says, I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. And the wolf, and then then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. And the man, what does it say? The man runs away because he is hired, a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. Yes. But I am the good shepherd, I know my sheep, and my sheep know me. You know, I I think about this scripture in regards to what we're talking about. I I've been in churches where we've paid musicians. Yep, me too. And you know, it's not it's not our culture at life point. You know, all of our musicians and singers are our volunteers, they're all part of our dream team, and uh incredible, yeah, incredible. Incredible volunteers, and yeah, we couldn't do what we do with without them. Yes. But going back to the season where we've paid volunteers or or people, musicians to come in, it I remember it being real difficult because it it a lot of things happen, and and not that it's a bad thing, you know, depending on how you manage it, it can be a blessing, a benefit. I remember I had to work extra hard to pastor these people. Yeah, and a lot of them weren't even from our church, they were coming from other churches, and it was part of their gig, and that that's the language. Hey, that's my Sunday gig. Yep. And so then I remember asking them, like, asking people like, well, who's your pastor? Who's your pastor? Like, I don't have a pastor. Right. Who like if something happens to you, like, where do you go? Yeah, they're like, I don't know. And then I would ask them, like, hey, let me be your pastor, let me let me pastor you. And so it took, it required a lot more from me as the worship pastor in that season to to bring them in to the vision of the church, to bring them in and be part. And so eventually they were paid musicians, but they became part of our church. And and then they they would teach. We started a music school, and and they would they would volunteer their time for all that, and then they became part of the life of the church. So it became relational, and then we did see a benefit on the on the other side that you know that the music was incredible every week, consistent, quality, all that. And so, but it requires pastoring them and leading them to a place where then eventually they were pastoring, maybe not on Sundays, right? But we created a Thursday night where they were leading other people through their gifts, yeah. And so, and it it became like their heart was to serve, and it wasn't so much now the paycheck was the benefit of being a part of the church, yeah. But it took a lot of work to to to lead them through that mind shift, like and then there was some musicians that I got that got to serve at the church where I was at, and these guys could have played anywhere, incredible touring musicians with any style of music, and but they would ask, like, hey, I want to be here because it's not about the paycheck, yeah, it's about like the community, the life. Yep. And so again, it it can happen in a healthy way if you put in the work and you're vision casting and leading them and drawing them back into the vision of the church, but then it could be very toxic.

SPEAKER_01 21:51

Sure. Yeah, yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_05 21:52

Because then it could become about like, hey, I'm just paying for what's on the platform. Sure. And we're just gonna pay people. And again, going back to John 10, like Things are going to happen at your church. Things are going to be happening on the team. And are these people going to care? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

They're going to be like they're going to say deuces. Deuces, yeah. Well, to and yeah, to your point, I'm glad you you said that. Because again, you and I have similar experiences there. Again, growing up in the particular faith tradition that I did, man, that that was a common practice. Matter of fact, it was expected that you would bring in the best of the best, you know, to help make make Sundays run, right? Because like, you know, we put the emphasis on on the worship, you know, even over the preaching. It's like, yeah, the preaching was it was fire, man, it was passionate. But sometimes theologically it was, it was weak. It was thin.

SPEAKER_05 22:36

I've I had gone to churches to lead worship where like they're like all their budget was on the worship team. And they had no kids' ministry, yeah, no outreach, nothing to follow up and really bring people back to the church. Absolutely. But it was all just the worship.

Hiring Versus Developing Leaders

Auditions Interviews And Next Steps

SPEAKER_01 22:50

Yeah, some of these were amazing. It was like, man, you you gotta get here. But like you said, there was no follow-up. And so, you know, yeah, you you you you have now weak, shallow Christians who have terrible theology. And then it's also Manson. It's built on it's built on the on the personality. It's like I'm I'm coming to church for him or for her or for or for the band or for the singing. No, I thought you were coming for Jesus. Yeah. Right? And so to your point, like, you know, coming out of that and recognizing, man, you have an awesome opportunity, number one, to pastor these musicians, but then also see them grow in in their gifts, you know, to be shepherded. That was one thing too that I noticed growing up. It was this, it's funny, you know, the word here talks about hired hand, and that word translates literally to a hireling, a day laborer or mercenary. It's like someone who just comes in, does a job, and then just leaves. They're just gone. And it's so easy and it's and it's so tempting to just say, man, I'm gonna put a dollar amount, hanging out like bait, and then because I because I need help. But man, we never, you never want to bring in, you never want to raise up leadership, you know, based on need in terms of but man, I I need this, because then then you become a recruiter, yeah, right, in instead of a a developer. Right? You become and Jesus, he didn't do that. He never said, Man, I I've got this kingdom. I the Lord sent me on this, my father sent me on this mission. I got I got to raise up some some disciples. Hey, you know, you you come, you'll do. No, no. He was he said, come follow me. And then unfortunately, there were some that fell away. And he's like, okay, that's but you know, you've stayed, I'm gonna develop you, I'm gonna pastor you, I'm gonna shepherd you. And we have to do that. You never want to hire out of urgency. You want to do it out of the anointing of the spirit. That's why you have to be spirit-led in making these decisions. And also, I think, too, this kind of segueing, this is why you have to have good accountability structures as well. You have to have some gates that people have to matriculate through. That's one thing I love that we do at Life Point Church, specifically for our creative team, is that we have an audition process, but we also have an interview process. So, yeah, we want to see that you're skilled and gifted. I mean, you got to be able to play an instrument or you have to be able to sing. Yeah. Right. I remember the first time when I auditioned, I went to sing and you knew as you know it was bad, because the first follow-up question was, hey man, are there any other passions that you have? Have you ever been an Usher? Have you ever been an Usher? We got some gloves, we got the little sheriff star. We got a vest for you. The sheriff star? Yeah, you remember the Usher? Jake don't know what I'm talking about. He's like, I don't. You remember the if you know, just put a thumbs up in the comment section if you know what I'm talking about. They had the sheriff star, but it said Usher on it. And I thought I was deputized. I thought I was making this citizen's arrest. You're coming in after service done started. You're gonna have to wait outside. For chewing gum. For chewing gum, it's a citizen's arrest. Now you get a citation. Next time it's gonna be a warning. After that, it's gonna be a desagulation. Oh. Because they're an interloper. Because you're interloping, man. You're an interloper. So hell, we crazy. So what was I saying? So, like, so so we have deputized by Yeah, being deputized, man. I was able to throw people out of church. No, so so we so we do have a process. And the process is also part of the discernment piece, too. So you can pray and seek the Lord, but then I think you can also have a process. I mean, and scripture is replete with all sorts of examples and talking about like in order to be an elder, in order to be a pastor, you know, you husband of one wife and you be gentle. So it's like, okay, well, why wouldn't you have that for your own creative process as well, like for your for your teens, where you have auditions, but you also have in you have interviews as well. And and we our interviews are based on our core values, they're based on mission and vision. Hey, tell us your story. Hey, have you been water baptized? Are you we we because we've seen it in in the past, sometimes you just assume somebody's in church and they want to serve on your team, so they're a cross follower. I'm here to tell you, not everybody that wants to be on your teams knows Jesus. And so we ask them flat out, hey, is Jesus your Lord and Savior? Hey, have you made a public profession of your faith to another person? Have you been water baptized? Are you dating? Come on. Are you married? Are you dating? Are you married? Kids? I mean, what what's your home life like? All that kind of stuff. Spiritual, hey, when you think about loving people, loving God, what does that mean to you? Why? Because you're getting a sense. Is this a shepherd's heart or a hireling heart?

SPEAKER_05 26:56

Yeah, and we're not trying to get into people's business because we're trying to condemn anything. We want to lead them into the next step. And so, so when people come on the team, again, for us at LifePoint, they'll go through growth track and then growth track leads them into their next step. That's right. And so they might come and sit with us and audition, great audition, but then sit at an interview. And then in the conversation, we find out as leaders, like being part of the platform might not be their next step. Right. Because they might have some things that they're really dealing with that actually need more undivided attention. And so being on a platform, we always say this, it it amplifies all the things you're bringing. So if you got a lot of baggage, it's only gonna make it harder. Right. Because now you're gonna feel the pressure of like, oh, I gotta live up to a standard. And it's not about living up to a standard, it's about surrendering and living a life pursuing Jesus. Yes. And in that process, God shapes you and molds you and removes things from your life. But when you don't see it that way, yes, you know, you just kind of just go forward and you and you hide things. And there's been people that they just don't tell you things out of shame. Sure. And so we we've tried to we've tried our best to create a safe environment where people can allow us to pasture them before they even set foot on a platform.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

Absolutely, yeah. And and again, the goal, the reason for that, for those of you that are tuning in, is because we we don't want a repeat of Ezekiel 34. Remember what happened to the sheep? They were scattered. They they were they were lost, they were disoriented, and then they they found themselves in in other places that cause harm. And so there is a there is a way because when when people see leadership, the what what they're when they look at you as a leader in whatever space you are, specifically for those of you that are worshiping in worship and and and and creative spaces, the people there are assuming that you are the representative for the church. This person speaks for the church, and ultimately, they're gonna say, you speak for the Lord. The Bible says we are ambassadors of Christ. And so, Elmer, I don't want to do anything or say anything that will cause someone else to have a tarnished view of Jesus. And so this is why we're having this conversation with you all, is because we want you to understand that there it is a way, it's a responsibility, and it is a privilege. I'm thankful to wear the name of Jesus Christ because of what he's done for me, number one, but because I now get to take that same name and bring it into other spaces so that others can find freedom. And so that's why I have to get out the way. Okay, I'm an introvert. Introvert has nothing to do with the gospel. That's good news. I can shout that good news or I can whisper it and it still has the same impact, right? I'm preaching better than y'all that ain't men in it. Because he ain't in the tomb, because he ain't in the tomb.

Pride Proofing Through Humility

SPEAKER_05 29:44

Come on, come on. Hey, I I think what we're trying to say isn't so much that you shouldn't pay musicians or do that. If that's your church culture and you have the budget, right, and that's what you guys prioritize and allocate that stuff to, that's great. But take the take a moment to pastor these people and and create a process to make sure that the people that are leading your people, the sheep, that they're also have pastoral hearts and that they're not just because they're again the people I got to work with were incredible. And once we made that transition, that shift, that they understood, uh oh, this is the mission, right? They became incredible leaders in our church. And so, and even till today, they love people, you know, and so it's not a bad thing. But but but here's another thing that happens where I've seen this be an unhealthy thing is that people use the church as a platform to move their career ahead. Yeah, absolutely. And so, again, we're talking about worship leaders and people on platforms being pastoral and shepherd. Again, this applies to everybody in the church. Absolutely. To anyone that comes in to any position of leadership, it's easy to want to promote your your gifts, your career, your business. Yeah, and uh, and to use the church as a platform for so that becomes a really blurry line.

SPEAKER_01 31:03

Come on. Yeah, that's a good point because you you you you enter to the space, you're into the church, you you you you land on a team, and you say, Man, I I finally found okay that the spot for me, like like to help out. Like this fills my cup. So we want you to enjoy. That's why we call it the dream team. So at once we want you to enjoy what you're doing. We want we want it to be fulfilling. I mean, nobody wants to do something that's like drudgery. But at the same time, you have to be careful that you don't start to believe your own hype and your own press and your own publicity. Because that's gonna happen because the Lord's working through you, right? Yeah, I mean, I remember in the book of Acts, I mean, God is using Peter to perform these amazing miracles, and then there's this magician who's his name is Simon, and he's like, Man, how can I purchase that power from you? Like, that is amazing. He's he's getting it twisted, and Peter says, No, you're caught up in the gall of bitterness, man. Like, that's Satan at work in your heart. Like, first of all, this you can't purchase this. This is done by the Spirit. You got to be saved. But what what what happens is this the and the shift is so subtle. That's the thing. Because God is using you mightily, lives are being changed, people are getting saved, people are getting set free, they're being transformed, the church is growing, there's your influence is increasing, and so you're you know, there's some favor that's happening. And because because the Lord is because the Lord's good. So like he'll he'll he'll bless us in spite of ourselves, amen. But the shift begins to happen when you begin to think, even subtly, that you are the foundation of what's happening. Like, man, this couldn't happen without me. Or this your this church wasn't happening, this ministry wasn't thriving until I got here, and that's just not simply that's simply not true. Right? Where we where we start to think that the Lord needs us. And there's a scripture in Luke where Jesus tells his disciples, he tells them a story about the master who's eating at the table. And he says, Hey, when the master comes in, like the the servants have been out in the field all day. The master comes home and he sits down to eat dinner. Does he invite the servant to sit at the table with him? No. He says, Guys, I'm ready to eat. Bring me my food. We're here to serve the master. But then he says, When the master gives you a commendation and says, Thank you for all of your work, your response is to be, we are not worthy. All we were doing is what we were asked, is what was asked of us. That's that's how you keep from my dad would always tell me, my dad, he was in the army for 25 years and he he also serves in ministry, he's a pastor, and he would say, Son, there are two things you don't ever touch. You never touch the glory and don't touch the gold. Don't ever think that it's about you. There is no Holy Spirit Jr. There is no, you know, there's no Jesus light. He doesn't have assistant saviors. And so that's how you just keep the heart where you just say, Man, God, thank you. So that's why we have that sign where we have it downstairs where it says, It is a privilege to be on this stage. Yeah. Thank you, God, for choosing me. And I look at that sign every single Sunday during a huddle. God, it is a privilege, which means I didn't earn this. There's nothing I did. There's no equivalency that said, Well, Willie, because you're so good, I'm no, no, no. God, thank you for choosing me. You could, which means you could have chosen anyone else. And I tell the Lord that all the time. And I've learned to pray what Dave Ramsey prays before he speaks. Lord, I could do this all on my own, but it's so much better when I do it with you. And that's, guys, and that's it, listen, that's a shepherd mindset. And again, let me just go back to Ezekiel 34. The first three verses, he says, Shepherds, you're fattening yourselves. And the sheep are languishing and dying because of it. So if you go back to Ezekiel 34 and just say, Lord, let that heart be far from me. I want to go to verse 11, where I go seek the sheep, I go gather the sheep, I bind them up, which means I take their wounds, I'm gonna stop the bleeding, I want to refresh them, I'm gonna gather them, I'm gonna help restore and renew them. That's the heart. That's so other centered. You know what's so funny? They never talk about in scripture at all, they never talk about the conditions of the shepherds, like what they do and like the regimen that they do to take care of themselves. They never talk about that. Why? Because it doesn't matter. Of course you're gonna take care of yourself. But Jesus even says in John 10, I am the good shepherd. And he says, I lay myself down, I lay my life down for the sheep. And it's not that you don't think about yourself at all, it's that you don't think about yourself first. That's just the heart. And that's anyway, I'm going on a rant, man. But that's just how you, I think that's the best defense is just humility and gratitude. Let me just say this humility and gratitude.

SPEAKER_07 35:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

Well, man, anytime you're asked to preach, anytime you're you're scheduled a roster to lead, anytime you're rostered to be in the choir or to be on an instrument, your first response, God, thank you. When I get that serve request, it's always thank you. I'm I'm I'm can I just be honest? Like when I get a serve request to lead a huddle or to be a campus communicator or to be a preacher, you know, Pastor Mike asked me to speak at our strong men's last night, and my first response was, God, thank you. You could, Pastor Mike, he God could have put anyone else on his mind. Anyone else. And that's just a mindset that I've just learned and I have to revisit it often. God, thank you, Ezekiel 34. I don't want to be that kind of shepherd there.

SPEAKER_05 36:14

Yeah. You think of a shepherd when you're talking about does the Bible share what the regiment is? It doesn't, but it does refer to them having a staff several times. David does it, you're rotting your staff, they comfort me. Yeah. But you you think about that. Shepherds are are gritty, they're they grind, they work hard, and and they they're probably tough.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

Oh, yeah.

Fight For Unity Not Control

SPEAKER_05 36:36

And they probably know how to fight. Absolutely. There's there's some type of defense that they have to be bold enough and strong enough and and courageous enough to if there's a wolf or a bear, whatever, yeah, they they're gonna stand up and fight for their sheep. Yeah, and so just two signs that you might be fighting for the wrong thing. Because we're all shepherds, we all fight for something. If you're a mom or daddy, fight for your kids. You know, if you're a business owner, entrepreneur, you fight for your business. Everyone's grinding for something, right? Yeah. But in this context of the church, if you're serving at in a leadership position, if if you're fighting with your leaders and you're constantly wanting to change them and you're constantly wanting to go another direction, I think you need to check your heart. Yeah. Because then at that point you might be dissatisfied with how things are going, but then you're not serving your purpose. You're not serving the sheep as much as you're trying to get be satisfied with your agenda. That's good. And not always is your agenda a bad thing, but there are things that people are gonna see, like, oh, they could have done this better, you know. But then it becomes like your main objective. Like, I need to shift their heart, they're not seeing it. It could be so much better. And then all of a sudden, now you're fighting the wrong fight. Yeah, instead of preparing yourself and defending the sheep that you could be protecting, now you're fighting against the very person that empowered you to lead.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

That's so good.

SPEAKER_05 38:00

And so again, that's to check your heart. Yeah, you know, and I said too, I forgot the other one, but like, but just there alone, like, like like think of that. Be mindful of where is my heart in in this season of where I'm serving, where I'm leading. Am I am I adding value to the overall mission and vision of what we're called to do, or am I actually stirring chaos because I'm not satisfied? Yeah, and so then that there has to be something going back to what Pastor Willie said that this is a work of the spirit. This is not something that we do on our own ability. It does not matter how gifted you are. Yeah, I I've grown up doing so many things. I've you know, and and Jacob always tells me, I I wish I was better at carpentry and fixing cars, and I'm not, yeah, yeah. Like YouTube for the win.

SPEAKER_03 38:44

Yeah, come on.

SPEAKER_05 38:45

Jacob always reminds me, but bro, you could do so many other things, right? And I always kind of make like take disregard those for some reason. But even regardless of what I'm capable of, like it can't be on my own strength, it can't be on my own ability, it can't be based on what I know and what I don't know. I when I go on platforms at churches, if it's small church, big church, I get nervous when I go preach to students on a Wednesday night. I'm freaking out. Like, yeah, like I like if you're not nervous when you step into the role that you're called into, yeah, and you're not scared that you're gonna break it, yeah. Like that's probably that's number two. Check your heart. That's it. Like, are you fighting the wrong fight? And like, are you not nervous? Does it not carry weight anymore? Like those are things that as a shepherd should always help align you and realign you with the heart of your pastor, the heart of Jesus. Yeah, and just like, God, where should I be right now? What do I need to surrender right now?

SPEAKER_01 39:39

Because I appreciate you saying that, man. I mean, come on, man. Man, you spitting hot fire. You spitting hot fire. Hey, that's so good. Because at the end of the day, the the devil's MO, his agenda is actually to start on the inside. I mean, he's he's got the world already. The Bible says that he's the God of this world and he has sway over this world. So he's so he's got he's already got non-believers. So his goal is to attack the flock from the inside. That's why it talks about wolves in sheep's clothing. You know, the wolf just don't roll up. The devil doesn't just roll up, you know, looking like a demon. He rolls up a lot of times looking like a church member, looking like a dream teamer, looking like a brother or a sister in Christ. And his voice, a lot of times, sounds like our voice. Ooh, that's a word right there. A lot of times, man, the devil's voice just sounds like common sense, like, well, yeah, of course I need to, of course they're out of line. Of course I need to shape, reshape. Yeah, they're wrong. They're just not seeing this the right way. And that's dangerous. That's where pride creeps in. It just it's like water on a leaky roof. It'll it'll find a way in your heart. And like you said, you Psalm 139, at the bottom of that chapter, King David, he starts the chapter by saying, Lord, you have examined me. You have examined my heart, you have tested me. Then he he ends it by saying, Lord, test me again. Go in every single room, sweep under every single crevice and crack, and look at look everywhere and see if there's anything that grieves you. Because if it grieves the the good shepherd, well, then it's gonna grieve those that God has given over leadership of you as well. It'll grieve them as well. So, yeah, you do have to examine your heart and start there. We gotta remember the devil hates unity. He hates unity. He hates when brothers and sisters walk together. Why? Because unity is so powerful. The word for one, when in Genesis 2, where it says the two shall become one flesh, that word, it's the exact same word for thrust. It's it's the it's the word used to describe the tip of a spear. It's echad, e-c-h-a-d, and it literally means the thrust from the tip of a spear. You think about like if a if a if a spear is split in two or if it's blunted at the end, it doesn't make that kind of impact. But man, when that when that when there's one edge, it's razor sharp. I mean, you make you make an impact with that.

SPEAKER_05 41:53

You penetrate.

SPEAKER_01 41:53

You yeah. And that's how, and this is why Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against the kingdom, because there's no demonic defense that can cut stand against a unified church. Man, come on, and this is why we have to fight for unity. You won't talk about the right fight, fight for unity. So maybe you have a hard conversation, but it's also 1 Corinthians 13, it's the love chapter. Love believes the best. I'm just gonna believe that my brother didn't mean to offend me. I'm just gonna believe the best about him. Yeah, and that's so we maintain that unity, we maintain that sharpness, we maintain that edge where we can bust through the gates of hell. You want to talk about a right fight? Fight against hell, fight against darkness, fight against the devil. Don't fight against your brother or your sister.

Feedback Without Offense

SPEAKER_05 42:35

Yep, and a lot of times that whole concept of unity, it's it's you you make it about like does this feel good for me? Does this feel well? You know, you you also mentioned the have the hard conversation. A lot of times the hard conversations feel confrontive, they're they're not easy, they're they're gonna they're gonna hurt. Yeah, you also hear people say this in leadership, and I want to speak into this. They say like you have to have tough skin. You can't be offended. And I agree, like you can, there's a lot of things that happen in ministry, and I'll share an example uh where you cannot be offended because it it's not personal. Right. And a lot of times we take everything personal because your ability and your skill and your time is wrapped up into what the things that are happening. Yeah. For for example, I've had some conversations here recently with some of our team, and you know, I get to oversee a lot of our teams here at Life Point, and and as we've shifted in the season with three campuses in Clarksville, and and we've been growing and doing new things with our systems. We're identifying like what's working, what's not. And I've I've told them, like, hey, just tell me as it is, like, what's going on? I I never want to be the bottleneck for anybody, right? And so I I tell our teams, like, hey, be honest with me. Yeah, like you're not gonna offend me. Yeah, like even if it's If I'm making decisions that are are probably not the best for our teams, like I want to know. Yeah. Like don't just be don't beat around the bush. Yeah. Like just tell me directly. I'm not gonna get offended because what I do, the goal of what I do is not for me to elevate myself or to feel good about myself. This is about the people. Yes. The the end game is like people. Are we serving the people? Are we taking care of the sheep? Yes, the flock. And so if it hurts, it's gonna hurt. But God, God, all right, let me get this right. Yeah, it's gonna hurt when you're not doing things right. When you're going, when you're going against the grain, when you're doing things the wrong way, it's gonna hurt because there's a rub. Yeah, there's there's things that are are letting you know, like, hey, like you're going the wrong way. You know, I heard a pastor share this story on Easter that he was in San Francisco and he was all of a sudden he he made a turn and he was driving down the street, and some guy just starts screaming at him. And and he got like, he tells his wife, like, man, that guy is crazy. Like, why is he screaming? Man, people here in San Francisco are insane. And then all of a sudden he realizes he's going down a one-way street and then he busts a U-turn, and all of a sudden his perspective about this person changes. He lowers his window and he's like, Hey, thank you so much, man. I appreciate it. That was awesome. Thank you. And then he just keeps going. Wow. And so a lot of times we think like we're having these conversations, and and we people tell you things and they it rubs you the wrong way. Yeah, but you know, you don't know everything. Yeah, come on now. And I'm and I'm I'm willing to say that I don't know everything. And so there, I I depend on the people that God puts around me to just tell me, like, hey, yeah, you said this, but you know, it could have been said a little different. Yeah. And you know, and that's where humility comes in. So it's not so much about be having tough skin, it's about being humble.

SPEAKER_01 45:42

That's it right there.

SPEAKER_05 45:43

And so a lot of people think I have to be tougher, I have to be meaner, I have to be stricter. Yeah, no, tough skin doesn't start with with a horrible attitude. Yeah, it begins with humility, humility. Absolutely. What's kept me here doing this for so long, 25 years in ministry, yeah, it has not been being a stubborn 40-year-old man. No, like it, it's I've I've had to learn, hey, I'm sorry. Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna change this, we're gonna do this different, uh, because I want to serve you, I want to serve the people better. Yeah, and so humility is one of those things that for a leader, for a pastor, that it's gonna equip you and it's gonna allow you to to lead people better. Yes. Because even for the shepherd, this is not about you. If Jesus says, I am willing to lay my life down for the sheep, if Jesus is willing to do that, yeah, and you're not, because you want to be up here, like you got you got issues.

SPEAKER_01 46:32

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's so good. And again, it goes back to the shepherd heart. I mean, John 10 10. He talks about the hirelings, they flee because they don't care about the sheep. I mean, you're a mercenary, you're a hireling, you're a paid worker, you're a day laborer. So you're like, this is a gig. And I don't ever want ministry to become a gig. And I appreciate you saying, I mean, just like I think we struggle with asking those kind of questions about like, hey, you know, if there's hey, just call it out. Because, like you said, it it it goes to the heart of who we are, and that's why you can't let me just say this. I think a secure leader is a humble leader, but a secure leader is also a Christ-obsessed leader. And what I mean by that is like your identity is so absorbed in Christ that feedback and and critique and maybe even criticism that that you receive, that is where your skin is thick and tough because you're like, man, my identity is rooted in and secure in who Jesus is and who Jesus says I am. Right? First John, he says, uh 1 John 3, he says, Man, what an awesome privilege God has given us to be called his children because that is who we are. And so when you start out of your identity, you can have thick skin where you say, Hey, tell me where I'm missing it. Well, Willie, man, you you your follow-through is terrible. Okay, hey, you know, I appreciate you saying that, I'm gonna work on that. And now I I'm not spiraling into despair because my identity isn't wrapped up in what they just said about my identity is in Christ. And it's like, hey, you are at once flawed, but at but you're righteous. You're imperfect, but you're perfect in Christ. And so my security is in him. So then that allows me the safety to ask these questions and to continue to grow.

SPEAKER_05 48:01

Yeah, I I think the the phrase sticks and stones can break my bones. But words will never hurt me. I think that's wrong. Oh, I fully agree. I rather get sticks and stones thrown at me than people criticize me and say things. And so as a leader, that's hard. That's one of the hardest things to actually get feedback or critique from people that hey, hey, like you're not good at that. Yeah. And again, going back to the the heart of a leader, of a pastor of a shepherd is is as you're leading people. Again, that we've expanded from just worship, but as you're leading people, the the heart is Jesus. Yes. The heart is what does he want? What is his heartbeat? Right. And then in our case, we trust that our pastor, Pastor Mike, Pastor Steph, are pastors that they're they're being led by the Holy Spirit. Yes, that everything they do, and when they lead us and they communicate, they're communicating the heart of God and everything. Right. And so there's a lot of trust that's been built there and a lot of trust from them towards us as pastors, under shepherds with them. And so now as we go and we serve our teams and our and the people that we get to do life with, like you know, we're it's not this, it's we're doing this together. Right. Like it's not like they're they're saying, like, all right, go do this, and and they're not doing it. No, they're they're one of the greatest examples for our team of hardworking, loving, always following up with people, always caring for people. And so we do this together, right? And it looks different. The context for everyone on our team looks different. The way we interact with our teams, some some are every week, some are every other week. Yeah, you know, but we we get to do this together.

SPEAKER_01 49:33

Absolutely. Come on, man. And that that's that's what makes our church better. That's why there's no room for division, or like there's just no room for like the hireling mindset because you can't make it about you because you will literally be sticking out like a sore thumb. And and not just to the Lord, but like to everyone else. And that's why I think I think it's just so important to remember, man, the Lord saved me. He also sent someone into my life to welcome me into the family. Like nobody gets saved like in isolation. They just wake up and say, Oh, I know Jesus is Lord. Bible says they can't believe unless somebody tells them. And somebody can't tell them unless they've been sent. And so somebody was sent to you to shepherd you into the flock, and you just have a wonderful opportunity to do the same thing, to shepherd somebody else into the flock.

SPEAKER_05 50:12

And that's the accountability piece. Yes. And so shepherds need accountability. Yeah. And so going back to the beginning of this conversation, we're leading people from platforms, we're leading people from stages, but who's leading you? Yep. And so, you know, that's the great privilege that we have as leaders. We're gonna do the shepherding, we're gonna get dirty, we're gonna get, we're gonna get in the mud, we're gonna fight, we're gonna get gritty, we're gonna, you know, we're gonna fight the right fight. That's it. But then also, where is my accountability? And then that's that's where, again, humility comes in and plays a big part because our accountability, those that are speaking into us, should have every right to to lead and correct us without us getting offended. Yes. And even if what you hear is not what you want to hear, like you have to be willing to receive it because sometimes correction, as as much as it hurts you, I've learned over time that it could hurt me, but it's gonna help me help others. Yes. And so sometimes there's a lesson that I'm learning that, like, I don't why am I learning this right now? Yeah, makes no sense. But then the people that I'm shepherding, I'm realizing, like, oh wow, okay, this makes total sense.

SPEAKER_03 51:19

Yeah, yeah.

Accountability And Trusted Voices

SPEAKER_05 51:20

Nothing is wasted, no pain is wasted. So a lot of times we're like, man, like that was unnecessary. Yeah. Just remember that no pain is wasted. God turns uses everything, He'll turn it around for His good if you allow Him to. Amen. And so that that's just that's just my perspective when it comes to leading in difficult times. In difficult times, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:40

I will say this. I just feel led to say this. You know, you you are right, uh Elmer, that we have to be wise about who we seek accountability from. Because not, you know, that because I I we live in a world, man, that is like so uh focused on like criticizing and and condemning. And so I think you do have to use wisdom in terms of like who you seek accountability from and who you seek, what's the word I'm looking for? I don't want to say critique. Like the voices that you're gonna do. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, like the voices that speak into your life. And so I just I was just thinking through this, like just some and maybe you can help too with like this, just some characteristics, like like who who do we lean into? So number one, somebody that knows you well. You know, because again, you know, somebody who's like this in the crowd, or somebody that I have no relationship with, I'm not gonna lie to them speaking to my life. So that's number one. I was I would say someone who knows you well. Number two, someone who actually wants what's best for you. So just because I know you doesn't mean I want what's best for you. Number three, and I think this is most important, that's why I put it third, it's uh like an anchor. I mean, they have to be spirit-filled, they have to be a mature follower of Jesus Christ. Why? Because you don't want them giving you worldly wisdom, you want them giving things that appeal to your sensibilities. You want them to give you counsel or critique. The spotlight has to be based on scripture, specifically on Christ. And then and then lastly, I would say they have to give you an out. They have to be redemptive, and they have to help you at least with a plan or like a step. Like they have to be willing to offer some support in some way. So those are this kind of four things I would say.

SPEAKER_05 53:08

I think going back to your number three, there are people that might not be spirit-filled that I believe God's given them great wisdom. And so that's where you have to be careful because you you you're drawn to what you want to become. And so I could easily go to a business person that can teach me things that will benefit me, but then it has to be filtered through the spirit. Like I can't just take him for his word or her for her word, verbatim, or just allow their their lifestyle to influence mine. So that there it has to be that that wisdom. Yeah. We're like, all right, I'll take it with a grain of salt. But man, great wisdom, great strategies, great, great life story. Yeah. So there's a lot that we can learn from other people because we're not, we're not like we're not of this world. We we understand that, but we're gonna be interacting. So there's a lot of you that are out there in the business world doing life with all these people that aren't saved. Yeah. And and you're brainstorming and coming up with great ideas and great things. But but then who do you want to become? Becomes the question when it comes to this person. So these people that are the voices in your formation and your shaping, then that's where you have to be mindful. Like, do I want him to shape? Because I know there's people that say they say this like if I want to grow my finances, I'm gonna find someone who's an expert in finances. If I want someone to help me with my health, I'm gonna go to a health expert. Yeah, which is true. Yeah, you know, but then when it comes to your formation, all of those people can't speak into that. Yeah, they can help you with your, you know, you can go to a personal trainer to get healthier and more fit, you know. But we're talking about your your soul. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:41

The inner man, like the inner who you are, like the heart again. I mean, yeah, to your point, like there's just I can't become like the heart of a shepherd. I can't unless I spend time with a shepherd. I just can't. So if I want the heart of Christ, I gotta spend time with people that that emulate that heart. I just have to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 54:56

And a lot of times it's gonna be people that aren't on platforms.

SPEAKER_01 54:59

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 55:00

Some of the greatest pastors are pastors of small churches.

SPEAKER_01 55:04

Absolutely. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 55:05

And a pastor, you know, all sizes. Yeah. Uh, but one of the pastors in our lives, for my for my wife and I that have loved us and cared for us so much over the years, like you would never see him on a platform like or platforming himself.

SPEAKER_03 55:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 55:20

And just in the shadows. Yeah. And him and his wife just loved us and pastored us and loved us. And we've learned so much about pastoring people because of them.

SPEAKER_03 55:29

Yeah.

Final Charge And Closing Joke

SPEAKER_05 55:30

Even if they've never they don't see themselves that way. But it's just the love that they share towards us, taught us, man. We want to love people that way. Yes. And so, yeah, man. Come on, man. Good stuff, bro. Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord. So don't just sing songs.

SPEAKER_01 55:46

No. It's so much more than singing songs. Don't don't just chase the platform. Chase people. That's what shepherds again, Ezekiel 35. Ezekiel 34. God says in verse 11, He says, I will go seek them out. I'm going to draw them. I'm going to find them. I'm going to bring them back. And that's the heart that we want to have as leaders.

SPEAKER_00 56:05

Come on.

SPEAKER_01 56:07

Now we're all calm. Well, I feel like I need to remind everybody.

SPEAKER_05 56:14

I have a joke for you.

SPEAKER_01 56:15

Elmer, I've just got I need you to get that button ready. Real quick. Go ahead. Get it ready. You got it ready? Hold on. You got a joke?

SPEAKER_05 56:22

Hold on, I'm so calm.

SPEAKER_01 56:26

Okay, so calm. All right, you ready? Okay, listen. Now I was calm, to be clear. But when I think about the fact that make sure he's got it. When I think about the fact that the tomb is still empty, Lord, I thought he was ready.

SPEAKER_00 56:50

It's still empty.

SPEAKER_01 56:52

He ain't coming back. He don't have a sign that says, I will return at such and such a time. He is gone, he is risen, and he's gonna stay risen. In Jesus' name.

SPEAKER_05 57:06

In Jesus' name. Amen. Hey, love that we get to do this. Yes, sir. And we're so grateful and thankful that you guys join us every week. Make sure you guys are sharing this podcast with people you love and tell that joke. Knock, knock. Who's there?

SPEAKER_00 57:20

It don't matter if he's risen.

SPEAKER_05 57:23

From the dead. From the dead. Come on. Hey, we love you guys. Till next week. Peace out.