If Your Worship Team Feels Tense, This Is Why | Healthy Worship Culture

A great sound in the room doesn't guarantee a healthy team behind the scenes. In this episode, we get honest about what worship culture actually is, why it shows up as something people can feel, and how the standard you tolerate quietly becomes the standard you teach. 

We anchor in Psalm 133, Philippians 2, and Ephesians 4 to show that unity, humility, and honoring others aren't leadership extras — they're the foundation. We also name what silently kills teams: jealousy dressed up as standards, comparison that becomes resentment, and the pressure to manufacture what only God can create. 

Whether you're leading a single team or navigating growth and multiple campuses, culture doesn't transfer on its own. It has to be taught.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Oh man. Hey, what's going on everyone? And welcome to the Worship and Leadership Podcast. My name is Elmer Cunhas Jr. And like always, my main man right here, Willie C Simpson.

SPEAKER_05 0:23

What is up, everybody? I'm excited today. Y'all listen, we got all kind of shenanigans going on. My boy Elmer is he's dressed like a college freshman up here. What's up? You know what I'm saying? We got Jacob off-screen eating, you know, beef jerky mac, putting it down.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Buffalo, Buffalo Wild Wing.

SPEAKER_05 0:41

Buffalo, what? Oh, is that what it is? Okay. That's legit. You know, I'm a Slim Jim dude. I'm old school. Yeah. I'm the OG. Come on. If you if you the OG Slim Jim group, just put Snap into a Slim Jim in the comment section today. Put snapping to a Slim Jim.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Was that Macho Man? That was Randy. Randy Travis.

SPEAKER_05 0:59

Macho Man Savage. You said Randy Savage Travis. My lord, he's getting up, he's getting his stars. Could you imagine Randy Travis being a WWE wrestling man?

SPEAKER_02 1:08

Snapping to Slim Jim. Snapping to a slim gym. Oh my god. It will change your life. Why are you hating on my collar? When you eat beef jerky, you open big thighs.

SPEAKER_05 1:28

I was gonna say, it will make you fight. Fight what? You know that wrestling, you know, snapping too much.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

Oh, yes, it's okay. You look good, Elmer. Hey, thank you. You look sharp, bro. Appreciate it. It's the hat. It's the hat. It's the hat. Yes, sir. There's a shadow on my face. It makes me look good. Oh man. Well praise the Lord. Here we go.

SPEAKER_05 1:50

Today's episode has been brought to you by Slim Jim. Snapping to a Slim Jim.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Which is uh the dream team snack of choice.

SPEAKER_05 2:00

That is the dream team snack of choice. You want to talk about a quick pick-me-up and a protein-packed, powerful palaver. Yep. You know what palaver is? Yeah. What's palaver? Cadaver? I said palaver. Oh. I don't know what that is. It's chatter. Y'all look it up. When you're palavering, you're chattering, you're talking a much. You do a lot of that. I do, of course, man. Yeah. You're a palaver. I'm a palaverator. Palaverator. That's it. Y'all look it up.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Put it in the comment section. Oh man. Have you ever, since we're talking about Slim Jim, like, have you ever picked one up that you can't open?

SPEAKER_05 2:37

Oh, all the time. Yes. And in those moments there, that that's where my masculinity is the most challenged. Like, that's where I feel the least like a man. When I can't open up that little stupid plastic you know, wrapping. And I'm like, ain't no way. It's like this thing's been vacuum sealed with gorilla glue. Yeah. You know?

SPEAKER_01 2:57

So then I just it has a little three little thingies you can pull. That's right. Once you get through all three, and you can't take it.

SPEAKER_05 3:03

And it's it still won't open because, like, you know, you got the you got the the the snack and it's it's vacuum sealed. And it's like, wait a minute, man, did you did you wrap the snack? And did you vacuum seal it to itself? What's going on, man? So then that's when I had to humble myself. You just put it back and grab another one. Well, I asked my wife, babe, can you Carolyn, can you please open this?

unknown 3:23

And she does it.

Why Culture Is What You Tolerate

SPEAKER_05 3:24

Or ask my kids if my you know dad. It's because we're over 40. That's it right there. We're over 40. And I loosened it for him. Yes. That's why you opened it, because I loosened it. We're palabrating. We're collaborating. About this protein packed snack in Jesus' name. I think we should get on with the episode. I think we should get into the lesson today. Today's session. We're talking about building a healthy worship culture. Man, I'm gonna talk like this a whole episode, brother. I'm gonna talk like Randy Travish. I'm gonna take this button off the caller. Jacob's finished snacking. Oh, he's got one more in his hand. He's got one more. He's got one in the chamber. Brother, toss me that mug, right? Yeah, look, check this out. This is did y'all know Buffalo Wild Wings has beef sticks. Can you zoom in on that? Is it no? It's just us. Right here. Check that. See, we got Buffalo Wild Wings. Okay, we bring that into focus. There we go. Buffalo Wild Wings has beef sticks.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

It's your head's too big. Focusing on your head. Is that what it is?

SPEAKER_05 4:38

You're good, Jaco. You're good. Don't worry about it. This is uh Buffalo style. Oh, wait a minute. Hold on. This is made by Slim Jim. Slim Jim. See, man, they are everywhere. I'm gonna keep this for later, brother. Jesus' name.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

He just jacked him from one.

SPEAKER_05 4:51

He threw it to me.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

He was being generous. Hey, we're glad you're joining us on this podcast. As you can tell, we we are distracted by Slim Jim. I think we we should go to lunch after this.

SPEAKER_05 5:03

I I yes, we should. I think you're right, brother. 100%.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

But we want to talk about building a healthy worship culture, yeah, not just in your church, but just uh everywhere you go. A lot of the context, obviously, that we're gonna talk about today is from experience in churches. But Pastor Willie, can you kick us off?

Psalm 133 And The Blessing Of Unity

SPEAKER_05 5:21

Sure, absolutely. So when we talk about culture, uh one thing that Pastor Mike says a lot, and I mean, it's it's so good. I found myself repeating that phrase and really thinking through what culture is, it's how something feels. It's like, you know, you think about an environment. Of course, the young people would say the vibe of a place, right? You go to a restaurant, you go to someone's house, you, you know, you go to a space, a party, whatever, a social gathering, there is a there's a feel. And it's like you can't explain it, but but you know it. Like you just you can put your finger on it. And and so there are healthy cultures, there are unhealthy cultures, you know, there's uh cultures that are high energy, cultures that are more laid back, cultures that feel more corporate, cultures that feel more familial, right? And and again, it's it's how how a place feels. And culture, he says, Pastor Mike has taught us it's not what you want, it's what you tolerate. So culture is also what you're allowing, it's what you're condoning, either uh proactively or reactively, uh either deliberately or or passively. And so for our context at Life Point Church, our culture we say is Jesus. Everything that we do, we want it to feel like Jesus' heart is kind of emulating through this. Like, this feels like this is exactly what Jesus would do if he were physically on earth, this space, this meeting, this worship service, this event, even conflict response. Hey, does it feel like Jesus is in the room? Does this something that would Jesus look at that and say, Yep, that's what I died for? That is what I rose from the dead for. That is, hey, that right there that has my fingerprints, my DNA all over it. And so, starting there, when we think about culture, we have to, we can't talk about culture without talking about unity. And so thinking through, again, culture, it determines longevity. We're gonna we're gonna talk about how worship ministries are really just, you know, I would say Christian spaces that are rooted in humility, discipleship, and unity, they're gonna thrive. They're gonna have longevity instead of just leaning on talent alone. And so one of our anchor verses is Psalm 133. It's only three short verses, but it's one I think so many people know. And it says here, Behold how good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell in unity. So we see it's good and it's pleasant. Verse 2 it is like the precious oil on the head running down on the beard, on the beard of Aaron. Remember, Aaron was the first high priest in Israel's history, and he is anointed, right? He is anointed by Moses to lead the Levitical order, the Levites. And then I love verse three. It is like the dew of Hermon, Mount Hermon, a sacred mountain in in Judaism theology, which falls on the mountains of Zion. For there, here it is, for there the Lord has commanded the blessing, which is life forevermore. And notice what it says. It says, the Lord commands the blessing. We don't command the blessing. The Lord looks at that, he looks at unity, and then he blesses it. And theologically, why is this so important? Well, because of the nature of who God is. God exists in what's known as the Godhead. God exists, He's one God in three persons Father, Son, and Spirit. And all three persons in the Godhead are in perfect unity. No one is at odds with each other, no one is in competition with each other, no one is rebelling against one. There's not one person, the son doesn't say, Well, I want my way and my will, and the spirit doesn't say, Well, I want my way. No, no, everyone, it's it's kind of interesting. They're all God, but there is this sort of willful kind of submission to one another, right? Jesus says over and over again in the gospels, I must be about my father's business. And then Jesus in John 14, 15, and 16 talks about the spirit, and he says, That the spirit, I'm sending the spirit, and the spirit will not tell you that which he hasn't already heard. So there is this perfect, and then even seeing how the father, the father, glorifies the son, right? And so we just see all three. They're all Yahweh, they're all eternal, they're all co-equal, but they're all in loving, willing, kind of surrendered unity to to one another. And so God blesses that because it looks like him.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Yeah, no, I love it. Uh, unity in culture is is valuable because you're you're building something. And a lot of times we say, we even say, like, culture isn't what you what you do, it's what you allow. And so a lot of times we are intentional of what we're building, but it's it's the parameters, it's the kind of like the the guardroll that you put in place that will help you establish the culture that you want. And and so in our context, that's we have our our values, our core values that we make decisions as leaders and as a church based on our core values, and everything goes through our vision and mission.

SPEAKER_03 9:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

And so those are our parameters that have helped us develop the culture that is life point. Yeah. And so people do come here and they're like, man, it just feels different. Yeah. And I've had conversations where with people that have visited our church or attend our church, and and some have grown up in church and they've been to, you know, multiple churches, especially here in in Clarksville, where where you have the military base in Fort on Fort Campbell, and you know, the transient community. Yeah. People are moving a lot. And so we get to hear a lot of like, well, my old church, my old church, or people that are coming for the first time didn't know what to expect, or they had an assumption of what church is and and and what it shouldn't be. Yeah. And they walk in here and they're like, man, this feels different. This is it's not what I expected. Yeah. And but it's, I think, attributed to the the guardrails that we've put in place that we're able to put in. And then, like you said, in everything, Jesus is included. He's at the center of of all things. And so we don't do these things because we think they're great ideas. We do them because we know that they'll point people to Jesus, yeah, which is part of our mission. And so that that develops culture. And then so when we're talking about worship culture, again, worship isn't isn't the performance, it's not an act of of singing songs. No, it's a lifestyle. And so it's something that we are leading people and we want to make disciples. And we've talked about our our map, yes, you know, acronym and uh just yeah, the mandate, assignment, and purpose. Yeah, and as we lead people to become fully devoted followers of Jesus, we want them to develop a lifestyle of worship, a lifestyle of obedience, a lifestyle of surrender to the Lord. Like you say, like you said earlier in Psalm 133, it's in that place where you have several people coming together, pursuing the same thing. Like, hey, I want to be, I'm here because I want to surrender my life to Jesus. I want to get closer to the Lord, you know. So I'm putting my pride down, I'm putting my ego down, I'm putting my agenda down, and then all of a sudden you have a room full of people that are in a hot pursuit of Jesus. Yeah. And the purpose that Christ has for each and every one of them and for the church. Yes, yeah. And then God just commands that blessing, man. And so it's incredible to see that in the context of music. It's incredible in those moments of worship in church where where it usually takes a minute. Like, like, man, it's crazy that this is just our humanity. I I've been leading worship for several decades, and I I think it's like song one is always like like people are kind of just acclimating to the room, sure, kind of getting comfortable. Some people walk in with their coffee or their tea, and they're just kind of like, all right, just kind of putting all their distractions aside, type thing, type thing. And then all of a sudden, you know, a few minutes later that you could just tell people are like in the moment, which I think as a worship leader, you know, like I I don't love that. Yeah, I wish people would just come in just out the gate, like that their hearts would be prepared before they enter the door. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right. Yep, that would be. You know, but just with the the variety of people that enter the doors of our church, you have people that don't know Jesus. That's right. And so we see so many first-time guests, and so we know at the beginning of a service, they're gonna be people that are gonna be staring at our worship leaders and like, what is happening? Yeah, what does this mean? You know, and so we we understand that and we prepare our worship leaders in advance. Hey, there's gonna be some people just watching you, and so it's it's our responsibility to to lead them into an awareness of who God is and his faithfulness and you know, and and help lead them in that moment because they don't know. Why do we lift our hands? Come on, lift your hands, because this is our sign of surrender, surrender to the Lord in this moment. Great, He's been so good to you, so faithful. Come on, you do you have a reason to be thankful? Yeah, and so little things like that that our worship leaders do to help people align themselves in that moment to what God wants, and then and that moment is all the glory and honor. Yeah, and so so again, everything's intentional, it's not an accident.

SPEAKER_05 14:05

No, I appreciate you saying that. And and to your point, I mean, this is why I think it it is important for worship to be looked at as communal. It is the the worship leader's role in in helping to facilitate that and helping to motivate and encourage, but then we have the congregation. And so, like, if I am a newcomer or an unbeliever and I walk in, I mean, Paul, this is why Paul talks about when he talks about the spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12, 13, and 14, he specifically does address the order of worship, right? And saying, hey, listen, like we can't have this cast because God is God of order, not disorder. But it's for the unbeliever to come in and to see the body of Christ in fully engaging in worship, unified in that. So then the unbeliever says, Oh, okay, the God that they're worshiping caused this, right? Like they are united around Jesus. And so when we have first-time guests, or we have people who are unchurched, unsaved, they're seeking, and they walk into what's called the solemn assembly. They walk into the unified assembly body and they see Christians all over the auditorium, all over your sanctuary, all over your worship space. When they see them with hands lifted, when they see us with our hands lifted, then they're able to say, okay, wow, this unity is pointing to something. I just caught this. Like, unity is like a finger that points to something. And so what is so when people are unified around something, well, the people who are on the outside, they're like, What are you unified around?

SPEAKER_02 15:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:29

It's like when you go to a sporting event. Well, the fans of that team are all wearing the team colors. And so if you don't know who that team is, you're gonna ask, hey, who what team is that? Oh, well, this is the so-and-so. This is so, oh, okay. And now you're your now your attention is directed to the team that they're united around. Well, in worship, when we have our hands lifted and everybody is singing, everybody is engaged and everybody is extolling and praising God. Like on the day of Pentecost, they were all in different languages praising the same God.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

One accord, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 15:55

On one accord. Isn't that crazy? Many different tongues and languages from all over the East to West Asia Minor, thousands of miles away from Jerusalem. But everybody from those places were able to look and say, wait, you're all speaking different languages. I just caught this, Elmer, but you're worshiping the same God. It says you're praising Yahweh. And so now in today's context, there are people from all walks of life, Christians from all walks of life, hands lifted, and we're singing praises to the same Jesus. And then people come in and say, Okay, I want to know more about this Jesus that's causing everybody in the room to talk about and praise.

Worship Is Communal Not A Show

SPEAKER_01 16:29

Yeah, I I've referenced this before on another podcast. I think when we're talking about artificial artificial intelligence, how there is a different unity. There's the unity of of mankind in the sense of the Tower of Abel. Yeah. Where they they come together because they want to be God, they want to be more than what you know we're intended to be. And so we're trying to fill that void on our own. So in that case, they came together to accomplish something and become like God, right? And so God destroyed that planet. He sure did. He took care of that, right, in a sense. But in the same context, when we come together to acknowledge God and His purpose, yes, I think His plan is to meet us. Yeah, in this case, we wanted to elevate ourselves over with him. And so, like, like we don't have to build things to reach him, right? Because He's already come down. Yeah, and especially you know, post the cross and the resurrection, like we now have the Holy Spirit. And so our objective shouldn't be to build things that will get us to a place where we can encounter God. Right. And so a lot of times our worship services are built to get to a place where we encounter God. Right. And and that language is really intentional. And people people use those words. Oh, we're gonna do something, we're gonna lead people into the presence of God, and we're gonna do this. And we we give this responsibility to individuals as if like they have that much, you know, power when God already did it for us. Right. So I I think acknowledging that and being mindful of language is really important because language is culture.

SPEAKER_03 18:05

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 18:06

Language is culture, and so whatever your your realm of you know of work is, uh, your business, industry, all that stuff, language is culture. So how you communicate things, it matters because it shapes not only who you are as a person, as a leader, but it shapes the people around you and the and the environment. Yeah, and so so for us, we don't want to build something that's gonna get people to God. We want to point them to Jesus, we want to lead them to become fully devoted. Because there's things that we can do to to help one another to I need to help you see Jesus. Like I'm uh you know, uh this it gets blurry, man. Uh help me. Sure, sure, sure. Because I think a lot of times we take the responsibility of of what the Holy Spirit's wanting to do in our in other people's lives. Right. And so then I I again going back to worship, I think a lot of times we'll we'll add the pressure on teams to create things or moments that only the Holy Spirit could really intervene. And I say that because I spent years, you know, at in a church where every Sunday is like, how do we do this better? Yeah, how do we do this better? Uh, as a musician, coming up with arrangements, coming up with moments. We had about 25, 30 minute worships at it was incredible moments, and I'm not discounting any of it. Sure. But the pressure that I walked with and I lived with every day, uh, you know, and every Sunday would happen, and then Monday is like, all right, how do we recreate this? How do we make it even better? And it became a thing where like I felt the pressure of if I wasn't cultivating this myself, if I wasn't the one, you know, if the people on the platform, if you were in sin, all this stuff, like we made it so legalistic that it it got complicated. Yeah, and it got it got so messy that it it became exhausting. Absolutely, and I'm not saying it's not meant to be easy, it's it is a weight, even now, like it the weight of leading people, the weight of being called by God is heavy in itself. Yeah, but but a lot of times we take the Holy Spirit out of it.

Stop Trying To Manufacture God Moments

SPEAKER_05 20:08

Yeah, so I'm I'm glad you said that. I'm gonna go back to Psalm 133. I was gonna move to Philippians too, but I'm I appreciate you saying that. I remember we we had a we we had an all-staff at our tiny town campus, and Pastor Freddie T from Real Life Sango came and spoke. And man, there was something he said that was so powerful in in walking us through Psalm 133 in the power of unity. So looking at verse 2, it's like it's it says running down the really verse 3. It's like the dew of Hermon, dew of Mount Hermon, which falls on the mountains of Zion. And he made this statement, Pastor Emma, when he said that that why that statement's so powerful is you think about what dew, you know, this mist, what it does, is softens the ground. And the key is that this is dew that falls. I mean, you don't have dew is not like rain. It's just condensation. It's it's the air's cooler, then the ground, and then moisture just comes out and just deposits onto the earth, right? So you're not what it's not irrigation, it's not precipitation. It's it is a byproduct of another condition, right? It's dew is a byproduct of atmospheric conditions. That's what it is. It's not a accumulal nimbus cloud or whatever causing it to rain. And it's not also the result of man-made effort either. It's not you walking around with the with a garden hose. It's just a byproduct of conditions. And what is the condition? It is unity. And to your point, how do we take the pressure off of ourselves? We take the pressure off of ourselves by leaning into heart-to-heart connection. Hey, we're you, it's his Ephesians, it's one heart, it's one mind, one body, one spirit, one Lord, one faith, one baptism. And it says that the Lord commands blessing. And so the what is it? It's the atmosphere condition, which is unity. And I love how you said behavior is words shape. This is what Pastor Mike taught us that words shape behaviors, and then behaviors shape culture. So now, if you allow me, I want to jump to Philippians two, because Philippians. Philippians 2 and Ephesians 4 talk about the behaviors that facilitate the atmospheric conditions for unity that God blesses. So this is Philippians 2 verses 1 through 5. And this is worship and leadership. So the two are commingled. And this is what the apostle Paul says. He says, If there's any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the spirit, any affection and sympathy, listen to what he says: complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord, and he says again, one mind. Then he says, Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourself. That's all heart posture. Let each of you look not only to his own interest, but also to the interests of others, having this mind among you, which is yours in Christ Jesus. And then in Ephesians 4, Ephesians 4, okay, Paul doubles down. This is that it's like Philippians is like heart and mind. But then in Ephesians, the back half of Ephesians, that's the imperative. The first half of Ephesians are the indicatives. It's like you're one in Christ, you're you're adopted, you have a new identity, and it's right, you're saved by grace, not not by works. But then the back half of Ephesians is like, since the first half is true, here's how you live it out. Listen what he says. He says, Therefore, I, therefore, prisoner of the Lord, urge you, walk in a manner worthy of the calling which you've been called. That's all personal. Start there. With all humility and gentleness. That is seen. That's not thought of. Humility and gentleness are seen and experienced. Being patient, look at what he says, bearing with one another in love. Verse 3. Eager to maintain the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace. That's the key word, unity of the spirit. And then he says, There is one body, one spirit, just as you were called to one hope that belongs to you. So, and then the one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God. So he says, bear with one another, be patient, be gentle, uh, love one another. Seek. Well, I love how one translation says, seek to outdo one another and showing honor. Consider the other person more important. That is all behavioral language. This is it, it is expressed. And I think unity is like this spiritual magnet that just draws. I think God is always He's seeking and He's He's watching to and fro. Yes, he's omniscient, but he's also seeking and searching. And he and I and I think that he's looking for these, what I call these unity epicenters. That's just like, you know what I mean? He's like, oh, wait a minute, that looks like me. And he's drawn to that and he blesses it. And at the same time, God is everywhere too. Since God is present everywhere, he's omniscient or omnipresent. When we're gathered around him, it's just like it's it's like an outworking of it as well. Because God is everywhere, when we are in unity and we're unified around Jesus, that's just a byproduct. That's the outworking of it. Again, I love the term atmospheric conditions, the dew of Mount Herman. Again, dew is created because of atmospheric conditions. There are things that are set in place where that dew, that that moisture falls out of the air onto the crops, right? It's like Genesis. It's like it's like eating pre-sin. The Bible says there was a mist. Adam wouldn't have had to do no work. It's just a mist that comes up in water. And so, to your point, we don't have to do no work.

SPEAKER_02 25:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 25:11

I have to make sure that I am bearing with my brother in love, that I am considering Jacob as more important than me. I'm considering his needs and interests is more important than mine. I am I am being patient and gentle with my wife and my kids. Man, you want to talk about blessing in your home? Can I just say this? Some of you right now, the issue is you don't have a unity problem. You have a culture problem. You have a heart problem. Do you see your wife and your kids, your spouse and your kids, as their interests as more important than you? Are you willing to be patient and forbearing? Some of you in church, yeah, we don't have staffing issues, man. We have a culture issue. I have a behavioral issue. Do I even see my brothers and sisters? Do I see their needs as more important than mine? And am I forbearing? Am I quick to cut people down? Am I quick to, you know, tongue-lash them? Or am I am I lazy? Am I, you know, even the Lord, like, do I just have this mind, the same mind that Jesus has? Do I just seek to think the way that Jesus thinks? Because the rest of Philippians, he says, who, even though he was God in the flesh, he didn't think that was something to seek and grasp after. It says that he humbled himself, he obeyed even to the point of death on the cross. And I'm just saying, guys, listen, if let me help, let us help to take the pressure off of you. You in no way can command the blessing. What you can do is you can facilitate the spiritual conditions where the dew of God's favor will reign all over everything that God has given you oversight.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

And a lot of times when you say spiritual conditions, it's not over-spiritualizing things. No. It's it's we both have we have a life of devotion. Yes. We pray, we read our word, we we share with other people, we share the gospel with others. But we come together, we don't talk about any of that most of the time. It's just it comes out of us and it creates these moments, and that's why we have this podcast. Right. Because we're like, we talk about all these things and like, hey, let's let's make it a resource for people. Yeah. But it naturally comes out of us. So so a lot of times we want to create things that are not in us. Right. And so if it's not in you, I just want to consider this. We're talking about atmosphere and environments. If it's not already in you, then you force it to become an exterior result. Absolutely. And a lot of times, again, in this space of worship and in the creative space, and just speaking to that, uh, it's easy for us to want to cultivate and create an environment that that is being forced because we it's not in us. That that's right. But we want to see it. Yeah, yeah. We want to see it in others, and so we're like, Sundays, we want to see this. Yes. No, it's we're we're called light and salt.

SPEAKER_05 27:45

That's that yep, you're right.

SPEAKER_01 27:46

So there's something when it comes to like I'm just thinking of the atmosphere. I was speaking with Pastor Nate when Jesus was talking about you're the light of the earth, and in the context of it, that almost like like the the column of of fire and at night that led the Israelites out of Egypt. And if you think of light in in scripture, they didn't have electricity. Nope. It was it was a flame. That's right. It was an open flame. Fire produces different results. So when you walk into a place and you're considered light, like in this case, like there's a fire in you that's burning.

SPEAKER_03 28:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

And you walk into a place that's cold, yeah, you're gonna heat some things up. That's right. You're gonna change something, you're gonna stir some things up. Yeah, and so if it's not already in you and you're in and you're forcing things to change, right? No, you just show up.

SPEAKER_03 28:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:31

And you're that light. Yes. And then, like we said earlier, there's something about, you know, like you think about like at night when you turn on a light outside, yeah, like during the summer, all the everything that flies is attracted to the light. Absolutely. You know, if you've gone to football games, you know, like late August, and like there's the stadium lights are on, and there's like a million bugs flying everywhere. There's something about light that attracts and in this case, when that when you walk in and that light inside of you, inside of you, that fire is burning, something happens. People are drawn to that. Yeah, and so then you don't have to force it. And again, this is a lesson I've learned in life. Yes, like you don't have to force it. Right. You don't have to force it. A lot of it will happen in community because people are drawn to it and they want what you have, and then it gives you the opportunity not to force them into an act or a behavior, yeah, but into discipleship. Yes. And then you teach them, you lead them from the heart versus through acts and behaviors. Yes. And I think a lot of times we we again we've talked about churches that are legalistic. And there's all right, if you're gonna come in here, you have to do these things, right? Or else the presence of God is not here. Right. When I was much younger, I used to have hair and I would spike it up. I had I'm being completely honest, I would have ladies in church come up, son. You gotta lower that hair, it's too spiky. You're gonna offend the Holy Spirit. He's gonna come down and you're gonna poke him, and this and that. They would make the funniest statements. I'm like, yeah, no, right, yeah. I'm sorry, it's my style. Like at the time, it was crazy. But but just like we make we make all these rules for how how or how we're gonna box the presence of God into our spaces. Yeah, but in reality, we we have to live a life of devotion. It starts with us. It starts with us.

Humility Behaviors That Protect Unity

SPEAKER_05 30:20

I'm gonna reread Philippians 2. I'm so glad you said that. I'm rereading Philippians 2. And I just I'm I'm going to emphasize certain words that speak directly to what you just said, Pastor Helm. So again, Philippians chapter 2. So if there's any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the spirit, any affection and any sympathy, he says, complete my joy. He says, by being of the same mind. That's inward. Same love. Again, those are affections toward others, being in full accord. That's agreement. Agreement is internal and of the same mind. Again, look, but listen to verse 3. He says, Do nothing from selfish ambition. Ambition, that's motivation. Why am I doing this? You've heard the term ulterior motive. Like you just speaking directly to what you were just saying, Pastor Gamma. Selfish ambition or conceit. That's pride, that's ego, egoism inside of me, right? But in there it is, humility. In humility. That's a heart posture. I you humility is a choice that comes from a heart posture. And then he says, count. Count. Some translations say perceive or regard. That's internal, right? Like you were saying, this is all. Hey guys, use Philippians chapter 2, 1 through 5 to just do a system checkup. Am I? What is my ambition? Seriously. Am I walking in humility? Am I walking in conceit? Am I counting myself as more important than others? Listen what he says. Count others more significant than yourselves. Verse 4, let each of you look not only to his own interests. That's internal, but to the interests of others. And then he says, Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Jesus Christ. There it is again. It's just this internal check of. Can we just stop and look in the mirror and ask ourselves, hey, am I regarding my brothers and sisters as more and more significant? Humility is not thinking less of yourself, but it's not thinking of yourself thinking less of yourself, but it is thinking of yourself less. That is what humility is. It's not saying I'm a doormat, not at all, but hey, it is saying I'm a servant. Right? It's not, it's it, you know, it's not saying that I have to be first in line. No, it's actually making sure that everybody gets into the door. Hey, we're all hey, I want everybody to have a place. Why? Because you already know your place is secure in the kingdom. That's the thing. When you know who you are in Christ, this is all this all speaks to identity. When you know who you are in Christ, there's just there is no need for you to get stuck playing the comparison game. Pastor Elma, my wife shared with me a really powerful clip from Pastor Wayne Francis. He was he was a guest on another podcast. I think it was called like Access More, something like that. And he he talked about the difference between comparison and jealousy. And I'm just just let this bless y'all, because it blessed me. He said comparison is simply noticing the differences between yourself and another person, which is natural. We all notice things. Like, I mean, I'm I'm I'm dark-skinned and you a little lighter.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Just a little bit.

SPEAKER_05 33:19

You know, I'm chocolate, you caramel. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? You wear glasses, I don't. You have a hat on, and I don't. Like, that's just comparison. And comparison is normal. We just do that by nature. When you go to another space or church, you know, oh, this is larger, this is smaller, oh, they the service time is shorter. You it's it there's nothing that's neutral. Jealousy though, jealousy is resenting those differences. That's the key. The key, jealousy is when I start to resent. Oh man, I hate the fact that he seems to be more popular than me. I hate the fact that she gets more speaking engagements than I do. Man, I hate the fact that their team is larger than mine. I resent that fact. And that's the danger. Okay, and understand jealousy, it's divisive, and jealousy repels and repulses God, therefore, he doesn't bless because that's disunity, it's division, two visions. And the statement that he made was this he said, great leaders, they're able to take comparison and properly respond to it. As a matter of fact, they embrace and they encourage the differences. Man, I celebrate the fact that man, God is using her, that God is using him. I celebrate the fact that this part of them is thriving. As a matter of fact, not only am I gonna celebrate that, I'm gonna seek to draw closer to this person and say, Man, man, what are some things that you're doing? I'd love to see that same kind of growth in the things that I oversee. Can you help me with that? I've had conversations with you about that. Like, can you help me kind of rethink this, man? And and God looks at that and says, Man, I'm gonna bless that right there. Because now I see two brothers that are of the same mind. And right, and they're esteeming one another. When scripture talks about esteeming one. And then God, again, guys, listen, unity, it's like a magnet, but it starts here in the heart and in the mind. Are you esteeming your brothers and sisters as gifts and blessings, or are you esteeming them as burdens, these hurdles that you have to get over to fulfill your goal, to fulfill your destiny, to fulfill your own ambition? And it's a heart check, you got to look in the mirror.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

Yeah, I I I think of some experiences I've had when I've gone to songwriting events, and they partner you with different songwriters, and you're there, and the worst moments I've had or experiences I've had is when there's that one person that just wants to dominate the conversation and and their idea has to be the one that leads the the topic of of the song and the melody and the rhythm. And but this is my style of how I play, and and it just kind of turns everyone off. And that that personal advancement of wanting to get ahead of everyone or or elevate yourself over people, it just kind of you it's a nasty taste, like you're like, Oh, I don't like this. Yeah, and it doesn't just ruin the moment, it kind of like ruins like the perspective of that person, like makes them look bad, right? And I think of what you're saying right now of this illustration of of working together, it's it's humility number one, which Jesus modeled. Yep, and even that same verse uh or chapter chapter two, it says that Jesus it tells us to have the same attitude as Jesus, and because Jesus humbled himself, right? And then so that so humility, I think, is is part of where God blesses your interactions with other people. Humility and and something amazing happens when you collaborate. When we're talking about that that do of Herman, there's this stillness that happens in the land, like it doesn't require the grass or the the you know the greenery and the space around the mountain to to get to the top of the mountain in order to receive the dew. No, it comes to it because it's at rest, it's at peace. Yeah, it's it's doing what it's intended to do, right? And I think of Psalm 23, like the Lord is my shepherd. I have all that I want. Yeah, and then he leads me down besides still waters, and he lays me down green pastures. Like when we get to a place where we we can just rest mentally and we're not comparing ourselves and we're not allowing jealousy to come in, yeah, and we can just exist together. There's just something beautiful that happens, man, and that humility that allows us to become better. I'm a better person because of you, I'm a better person because of Jacob. I'm a better person because everyone around us on our team, regardless of positions or titles, right? Like I get to I oversee what you do. Yeah, you know, we work together, but I oversee, but that doesn't mean that as a human, I'm over willing. No, like we work together. Yeah, in tandem, you know, I I I'm responsible for certain things, you're responsible for certain things. Yeah, but if we're not both doing our job, it impacts people. Yes. And so this has nothing to do with titles or or you know, positions, it has to do about what is our purpose. Yeah. And so when it comes to the kingdom of God and and you know, again, ministries and teams, like it doesn't matter the position. Some people will have a position higher than you, but on on paper, but like that doesn't mean like you don't work any harder. That doesn't mean that you don't dream any bigger, like you keep believing God, you keep dreaming, and you keep esteeming that the Lord is gonna use you in mighty ways. You'll never see doors open up if you just settle with well right here on the on the what do you call in the totem pole or whatever. Yeah, yeah. And and then limit what God can do. I just think of David, you know, the when he was anointed, he was he was for he was like his brothers didn't even want to acknowledge him.

SPEAKER_05 38:26

Yes, his own dad, his own dad didn't even bring him forward. Jesse was like, Oh, oh yeah, I got another one out in the field. He's out there somewhere, yeah.

Comparison Versus Jealousy In Leadership

SPEAKER_01 38:33

You know, and so again, like unity doesn't happen because of positions and titles, it it has to happen in the heart. Yes, and so in this case, God elevated David, you know, to to not just become next king, but a warrior, yeah, all these incredible things on his journey. And there's a scripture in Psalms 78, 78, uh, verse 72. And well, I'll read 71, and then well, actually, chapter 78, verse 70 through 72, and it's it's a great psalm, and it says that he chose the servant David, calling him from the sheep pens. He took David from tending the the ewes and lambs. Ewes, is that how you say it? Ewes, right, ewes, right? Yeah, yeah, and made him the shepherd of Jacob's descendants, God's own people, Israel. And then verse 72, he cared for them with a true heart and led them with skillful hands. So not only did he develop into the leader that was skillful and and very knowledgeable, you know, and stuff, he wasn't just a great leader, a great doer of things. Yeah, he he did it with a true heart. Other scriptures say with integrity. Yes, and I love that. This is the NLT, but uh ESV says with integrity. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so there's something about leadership, there's something about leading people, there's something about being a part of something, there's something about being part of a family. Yes. That you have to lead with integrity. And that's a word that you know, our pastor has told us. Pastor Mike tells us, you know, the only thing we have as leaders, as pastor, pastors, is our integrity.

SPEAKER_05 40:00

Yeah, you're exactly right. That's the only thing that we really can give away to our people. Again, we we don't have a product, we don't have a widget, we don't have a service, but it is our integrity. It is the fact that, okay, Jesus says, or or what Paul says, imitate me as you imitate as we imitate Christ. He he he Paul commends the Thessalonican church, the Thessalonian church, for the fact that he says, Hey, you've imitated us and God. And that's what we want to do. Hey, we want, and and so what is integrity? Well, I've taught my kids integrity. It's it's really about what you do when no one else is watching. That is your true self. And so you want your true self to be your real self. You're you're your right and again, so I want my true self to really be my redeemed self. I want to be my the new creation self. I want to be why? Because that self right there, that self is the self that's gonna be aligned in unity with other true selves in the body of Christ, which is gonna command God's blessing.

SPEAKER_01 40:50

And it's not it's not based on talent. It's not. You could be the most talented person in the world, yeah, but if you have no integrity, yes, it'll disregard a lot of things that you've accomplished. Yeah. You hear it like I say this when I'm training people, like talent turns heads, but the anointing turns hearts. Yeah, it's good. And so a lot of times, you know, you also hear that that there's a statement, you can correct me if I'm wrong, like like talent can open doors, but character sustains.

Integrity And Character Sustain The Call

SPEAKER_05 41:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So what what talent does talent get you in the room? Yeah. And character keeps you there. Yeah. It'll keep you in the room. Because what happens is character is who you really are when the heat is turned on. I'm and that's the thing too. Like, you know, we I've heard it said too, character multiplies and character maximizes. Like your true self, who you really are, comes out under duress. Uh, I've talked with many people in law enforcement and who also serve in armed forces, and they say, man, in times of crisis, like when they're in battle, this is what they said. They say, Willie, we regress to our highest level of training. We regress. Why? Because when the adrenaline is flowing, it's all instinct, it's all primal. And so we want to be led by the spirit. So when there are times of duress, when there are times of strain, when there are times of heightened pressure, that flesh, man, wants to rise up. And if you haven't spent time, again, staying connected to Jesus, staying connected to his word, and staying connected in community. If you haven't spent time what Galatians says, walking after the spirit instead of the flesh, man, that flesh will rise up. And then people will look like you were saying, look at that character and say, hmm, wow. And so what we want to do is start first with this, this checkup and saying, God, I want you to, it's Psalm 139, where David says at the bottom of that chapter, at the top of the chapter, he says, Lord, you have searched me. And then at the bottom he says, Search me again. Search me again, know me, test, test my heart, see if there's anything that grieves you. God, recondition my heart. Give me a new heart. Created me a new heart. Yeah. Start there because, and then it's Romans 12, too, that has to be in effect. Don't be conformed to the world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. God, I need to be brainwashed, literally. I need you to take my mind and I need you to wash away. My former pastor would say, 1 John 1.9, he'll cleanse us from all unrighteousness. It's stinking thinking. He'll cleanse you of that. And then you'll have the mind of Christ, which says again in Philippians 2, even though he was equal with God, he didn't that can he didn't consider that something to grasp onto, but it says he emptied himself. Took the form, a lonely form of a servant.

SPEAKER_01 43:18

Can can I give uh two ways of doing that? Yeah. Two things that changed my life completely. My mid-30s, we were living in Australia, and my wife, we had our one of the pastors, he wasn't on staff anymore, but he was the former worship pastor, and uh, he was still attending the church, even though he wasn't in that position anymore. But he was a counselor at this point. He had gone through his training and got his degree, all that stuff. And my wife's like, Hey, you have an appointment with Pastor Simon. I'm like, What? Like, you made an appointment? I'm like, Yeah, you need to go to talk to a counselor. And I'm like, But he's my friend, and this and that, like, whatever. But it was my first interaction with uh some type of counseling, and that began. The journey for me at 35, yeah, of of having a counselor. Yeah. And so that changed my life, honestly, as far as like the renewing of the mind. Yes. As a leader. Again, I've been leading in the church in different spaces since I was 16 years old. Yeah. And so there's always, you know, that's a lot of responsibility for kid. Yeah. And then just growing up in the church doing a lot of different things. And so a lot of things that you carry, and you're always taught to speak up. Like if there's things that are hurting, there's the heaviness burdens. You you go to your leaders and you don't you don't go downstream in the sense because you're just you'll hurt people. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and so there's a lot of times I just kept things for years, for years. And I I'm I'm a person that I write things down, like I journal. And so I have notepads of just prayers, like prayers and prayers and prayers, because I would express everything on paper. Yeah. But I wouldn't talk about it. And then so now I'm in my mid-30s and speaking to a counselor, and it changes my life because now I'm realizing like I can actually verbalize what I'm feeling.

SPEAKER_03 45:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:07

And and then and then it does something to me where I feel like I can be vulnerable as a leader.

SPEAKER_03 45:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 45:14

For such a long time, I felt like I had to have it all together. I had to keep my head up. Yeah. You know, I had to live a certain way, meet certain expectations. I couldn't be broken. Like this was there's no way that you can be a leader, a great leader, and be this broken human. Like, there's no way. But I didn't realize how broken I was.

SPEAKER_03 45:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:32

And so just in these conversations, I was able to share and share, and and and he helped me so much, Pastor Simon. And and then, which led the journey, continue the journey. You know, I have a a friend who does the same now. You know him, Adam. And it's incredible just what happens when you're vulnerable. Yes. So that was number one. Number one, yeah. I became vulnerable. And number two, my men's small group. Yes, confession. Dude, my men's small group, it's it's I've been in this group for the last almost almost five years. Yeah. Started off as a mountain biking small group, and now we meet every other Saturday at a coffee shop in town. And it's it's a mix of you know, 20-year-olds and all the way up to like I think Jim. Jim's like what, like almost 70? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe.

SPEAKER_05 46:16

Maybe he he looks like he's 50. He's 50, yeah. Good 50.

SPEAKER_01 46:21

But but just doing life with these men that have nothing to do with the ministry that I do at the church, in the sense of like they're not on the worship team. Right. Maybe some have joined, but like they're not, they're not asking me, hey Pastor, what are we singing? What are we doing? Or hey, can we do this? Like, has nothing to do with the doing. Right. It has to do with who who I am, who they are, and doing life together. And so my men's small group changed my life. Yeah. And and I say it this way because as a leader, it's allow me to be in a place where I can take my hat off.

SPEAKER_03 46:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:53

I could, I could not that I just say random things again, but I can lead in a different way. Yes. Where I want to be a better man before I want to be a better leader.

SPEAKER_03 47:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:04

And so I think a lot of men don't think that way. Yes. A lot of people in leadership don't think that way. They they want to be a better leader. Yeah. They go to seminars, they go to conferences, you read the books, you go to all these things, you listen to the podcast. Right. Because you want to be a better leader first, but you're you're only going to be as good as you are a person. And so if you're not a good person, if you're not living a life of integrity, if you're struggling with things in secret, all of that's going to impact your leadership. Yes, it will. And so not until I learn to be vulnerable and to actually, you know, have a tribe of men that will hold help, they hold me accountable. Yeah. Hey, you're working too much, Pastor. Like we noticed this. Like, hey, we're gonna go help you. Well, no, I don't need help, but we're gonna do it. You know, and then I'm like, all right, I've allowed people to come in and actually take weight off my life. Yeah, I I've learned to humble myself and do things that I'm like, I've never done this, but I'm gonna try it. Let's go, you know, and because you you come into community with people, yes, and I think again, that that whole thing of when I stop trying to elevate myself, yes, and I just I become part of something that God's already doing, yeah. Like God blesses that. Yeah. And so I've the last, I'll say the last eight years of my life have been the healthiest for me mentally.

SPEAKER_03 48:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:19

Because I've I've allowed other people into my space, into my heart, into my mind.

SPEAKER_03 48:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:24

And people that the Lord has brought into my life, and I've given that, given them permission to.

SPEAKER_05 48:29

Yeah. I'm so glad you said that. Man, I was thinking, you know, I like I like alliteration. Most most preachers do.

SPEAKER_01 48:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:34

You know, so I I think through counseling and and confession.

SPEAKER_02 48:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 48:37

Right? That and that that's really what what you're talking through. I'm thinking through Proverbs 11, 14, where there is no guidance, a people falls, but in an abundance of count of counselors, there is safety. And to your point, man, my story is very similar to yours. I I've been in counseling now for almost a year. And again, yeah, it's it's a friend that you recommended to me, Adam, and he he has been amazing to help me unpack and just really like serve as that safe space. And I I think as men, we just struggle with this, just generally speaking, because we like to think of ourselves again as builders, providers. Like we provide structure, the we we provide the protection. Well, that listen, the protector needs protecting. And and and and the provider needs to be provided for, right? And so that, and again, it's Christ-centered guidance, it's Christ-centered leadership over me. And it helps me to see things in a in a new way, in another way, in a redemptive way, but also reveals blind spots to say, hey, Willie, like that. That's something that you need to address, either, either in in in with with the Lord through prayer, or you maybe need to make amends. And my men's group, man, well, I've been in this group specifically for a little over a year, and it has changed my life. And the one thing I have recognized out of it is that it it I hate to use the word forces me, but it encourages me on a weekly basis to flex the muscle of confession. James 5.16 is always in effect for me every Monday morning at 6 a.m. And my Lord, 6 a.m. comes early, especially after on a Sunday, you know? And that's how you know it's a commitment because I just tell myself, hey, this is good for me, but it's good for my wife and for my kids. And then it's good for those in ministry that oversee. And so, James 5.16, and we have to we have to think about the delineation of that. Confess your faults, not just your sins. Confess your faults, your weaknesses, your struggles, one to another, and then pray for one another. And then you're gonna be healed. The effectual, fervent prayer of the righteous has much power as it's working. And so I've told men now, I mean, I am just like championing this. I tell men, man, if you're not walking in healing, it's because you're not walking in confession. And the key of that scripture, the formula is you confess to another, not to God. I repent to the Lord, I confess to my brother. And then out of that, the prayer offered in response to that confession is what heals me. And so some of us, this there, this is a sort of like a tag, an aphorism I had learned years ago. Silence equals surrender. And I just feel some of you right now, you are walking in surrender. You're surrendering to darkness, you're surrendering to addiction, you're surrendering to lies and to shame and guilt and condemnation, you're surrendering to bad habits, unhealthy habits. You've just surrendered because you're remaining silent, because the enemy knows the power of confession. It's interesting when scripture does talk about life and death are in the power of the tongue. But then the follow-up of that verse says, and he, they that love it will eat the fruit thereof. So, what kind of fruit are you eating? Like what kind of fruit is in your life right now? Is it dead, rotten, bad fruit, or is it healthy, vibrant fruit because of what you're confessing? Now we're not God for sure, but we have to understand that God has given us the power of confession. He God and the devil knows the power of confession, which is why he wants you to stay silent and not confess. That's why he doesn't want us to confess Jesus. He doesn't want us to read the word and confess the word because the word has power. And so I would encourage you to get in confession, get in counseling. There is no shame. That stigma, I thank God, we live in a society. Listen, you know, we talk about like these young kids and the listen, I thank God that this newer generation of Christians is more forward by saying, Hey, I need Jesus and a counselor. I thank God for that. Because you, when you and I grew up, there was a stigma attached to that. Yeah. You know, I think about our fathers and our mothers that really did probably need some counseling. They didn't receive it either A, because it was unavailable, or B because it was probably looked down on. Oh, you're only crazy people get counseling. And then you as you grow up and you get wise, you're like, no, everybody needs a counselor. Only baby Christians go to a counselor or people in crisis, or if you're suicidal. No, no, no. Jesus introduces the Holy Spirit as the counselor because that is the office that he holds. And so, how much more do we need counseling on a regular basis? And to your point, it's changed my life. My wife and kids have seen a change in me. They've just recognized, and so I tell, especially men, again, we're talking about worship and leadership. Yeah. So I want to tell you this the best gift that you can give to your family and to your ministry is the healthiest version of you. That is the greatest gift that not your talent, not your knowledge, not even your own leadership. It's actually the healthiest version of who you are. The the you that God created you to be, that He desires for you to be. And that life change doesn't happen in a vacuum. It happens through the two C's of redemption, through through counseling and through confession and community.

Counseling Confession And Healthy Community

SPEAKER_01 53:19

And so the the healthiest version of yourself allows you to step into rooms, into places, and really change the atmosphere and create a culture in a place where people want to be, where people will thrive. Yeah. And and and one of the things I do want to emphasize is in our context, we are a multi-site church. So we we when we were one campus or or two in a sense with Austin P, everything felt a lot different. Yeah like I'll I'll just speak on to the worship, sure, the worship side of things. And in regards to my leadership, there was a lot of things that I was able to do that people would catch. And they would just, it was like some leadership's not always taught, it's caught, right? And so it was easier to just kind of do the things and lead by example, yeah. And people would pick up on things. Oh, oh, this Pastor Elmer, this is how he would do it, this is how he does things. And so I I hear I hear a lot of those statements from people that that were with me during those times where we were one, one, two campuses. Yes. Now that we're four campuses, it's it's been a lot harder.

SPEAKER_03 54:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:28

And in my mind as a leader, I'm like, man, like, why is it so difficult? Like, like, like, you know, again, I'm letting you guys into my mind, like, like, why don't people just do this? Why can't they just see it this way? Because we're not structured the same. That's right. So leadership has to change. So you go from a season where where you people are following by example, and then now you have to go into a season, and again, I'm learning. I'm stepping into a season where I I can't just lead by example because they don't see me do it. Yeah, but I have to be intentional in the discipling. Yes. And and not just through through modeling it, but actually through, hey, we're gonna sit down and we're gonna talk through it.

SPEAKER_03 55:07

Right.

SPEAKER_01 55:07

So there's two different things that when you're building your culture, there's some things that will happen naturally, language, atmosphere, all these other things that will just naturally happen because you created those spaces, you created those lanes, those guardrails, but then there's the intentional that as progress happens, things are gonna change. Vision leaks, you know, people get different ideas, people, you know, there's all these things that change. Society changes. Yes, you know, your family changes, you go from having one kid to six kids, you know. So all of a sudden, things just begin to shift in life. And and so that culture that you create begins to move. The vision doesn't change, the mission doesn't change, but the atmosphere can shift as people's lives change. Yeah. And so then now you have to intentionally set up discipleship metrics, and and so that's the season I think we're in where we've we've gone through, all right, we've done a lot of things that we were able to do because we have the knowledge, because we have the drive, we have the the want, you know. But now it's like, okay, we want to do good, but now we intentionally have to develop leaders and people. Yes, and not just by leading by example, but we got to do training.

SPEAKER_03 56:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:16

We got to do, you know, be real specific with some of those things, which requires a little bit more energy and more time. Yes. But as things expand, as things grow in your spaces, in your industry, in your business, in our church, like we have to be intentional. And if we don't give it that time, then eventually it's all gonna implode and it goes back to what it was, right? Or it just dissolves completely.

SPEAKER_05 56:39

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, which leads to frustration and then eventually, you know, burnout in in the sense where you just kind of resign. You you you know, you just kind of pull back, you pull the ripcord and say, I'm done. You know, I'm gonna I'm gonna check out, I'm gonna do something else, I'm gonna go sell ice cream or something. And now you're not doing anything God called you to do. You know, you're just you're you're you're self-resigning, you're you're you're self-ejecting. I was like, no, no, I've still got this assignment on your life. And you're right, we have to, we have, and again, that's why we're the healthiest version of ourselves. You know, we it's easy for us to talk through in insanity. You know, in my men's group, one of the lessons we talked through with sanity, and we're everybody's really good at defining what insanity is, right? Doing the same thing on over again, expecting a different result. And our our leader, he asked us, hey, has anybody ever thought about the definition of sanity? We were like, no. And we just realized here we are, group of grown men, never actually thinking about defining sanity. And sanity is this wholeness of mind, making decisions, rational decisions that are rooted in the truth. That's sanity. And like you said, when I am the healthiest version of myself, when my mind is renewed, right? Because of the word, now I'm making decisions that are based in truth, and I recognize, oh, I do need to shift, right? Oh wow, it's it's like the Jethro principle. I mean, Jethro tells Moses, like, you can't sit here and try all of these cases. You you you have to move people into the promised land. But you're here day and night, morning to and so he says, Okay, hey, raise up leaders. There was a shift. He goes from Moses goes from leading his own family to over two million people. Yeah, you have to shift. Your ministry model has to shift, brother. Yeah, you can't. We can't do this Sunday Bible school. No, no, no, no, no. I need small group leaders. Yeah, come on now. So I appreciate you you you giving treatment to that there, brother.

Scaling Culture With Intentional Discipleship

SPEAKER_01 58:18

Yeah, it's important. Because culture is built on in in community. Yes. And and so it's it's not just something one person establishes. Yes, sir. And so you can write the rules on the wall, you can put it in policies, you can put in handbooks, all that stuff, but if it's not acted out in community, and if you're not leading, the best in the ver through the best version of yourself, it it gets difficult. Absolutely. And so, and we want to see you guys thrive. And and again, this podcast is intended not just for us to talk and just kind of feel good about what we have to say, but we we really want to see our church thrive. We want to see those of you that listen and are part of this podcast thrive in your spaces. I we know not everyone that listens is in full-time ministry or you know, or is on a worship team, right? But all of these things that we're talking about, they they can be applied in every space. Absolutely. And so, you know, integrity, humility, unity, yes, like God will bless all those things. If you know, if you're willing to step into that, being vulnerable, yeah, and then allowing people to be part of your life and community. I think that's important. And so I I think people expect, you know, when they when they see the title of this podcast, you know, building a healthy culture, worship culture, they're gonna expect like here's the the three points on on what to do for your worship team. No, it starts with you. Yes, it's and it begins with your integrity and humility.

SPEAKER_05 59:40

Absolutely, 100%. So again, we just want to encourage you guys to look in the mirror. Psalm 139, Lord, assess. Assess, reassess, take out what's what's wrong, put in what's right in Jesus' name.

SPEAKER_01 59:51

Amen. Amen. Well, we love you guys, and until next week, peace out.