Not Pro‑Abortion: The Conversation Twist and the Lies We Inherited

This week on Culture and Consequence, Andrea and I show up grumpy, caffeinated, and absolutely done — which means it’s the perfect time to talk about abortion myths, political delusion, and the stories we were raised to believe about America.

We start with the hill I’ll die on: being pro‑choice does not mean being pro‑abortion. As I say in the episode, “People on the right believe that we get our nails done in the morning… and then later that afternoon we go get an abortion” — and we break down why that fantasy is both dangerous and insulting.

From there, we get into late‑term abortion realities, Planned Parenthood, and why medical decisions belong to women, their doctors, and nobody else. Andrea reminds us that “the vast, vast, vast majority of abortions after viability are wanted pregnancies with medical complications.”

Then we shift into the bigger picture: the myths we grew up with — the Founding Fathers, the “melting pot,” the American Dream, and the belief that hard work alone can save you. We talk Tulsa, Rosewood, banned books, civics education, and why so many of us had to learn our own country’s history outside the classroom.

And yes, we go in on billionaires, media capture, political cults, and why the Supreme Court has lost the plot.

If you’re tired, frustrated, or trying to make sense of the mess, pull up a chair. We’re right there with you.

If this episode brought you a little joy, consider liking, subscribing, or sharing it with someone who might need it.

As always, remember it really is All About The Joy.

Thank you for stopping by.  Please visit our website: All About The Joy and add, like and share.  

You can now watch the livestream version of the show on YouTube at @CarmenLezeth 

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Music By Geovane Bruno, Moments, 3481
Editing by Team A-J
Host, Carmen Lezeth


DISCLAIMER:  As always, please do your own research and understand that the opinions in this podcast and livestream are meant for entertainment purposes only. States and other areas may have different rules and regulations governing certain aspects discussed in this podcast.  Nothing in our podcast or livestream is meant to be medical or legal advice. Please use common sense, and when in doubt, ask a professional for advice, assistance, help and guidance. 

Transcript

[00:00:16] Carmen: Oh, you're like, okay. Yeah, you are in a mood. This is not gonna be a fun culture and consequence. It's gonna be kind of a, a grumpy one, I think. Um, actually somebody said that, that, um, we're mean-spirited.

[00:00:36] That's what they said. Is that grumpy? I guess that's-

[00:00:38] Andrea: No, that's different. We're mean-spirited. Hmm.

[00:00:41] Carmen: Well, they're Trumpers, so I don't know. I was like, okay, yeah. 

[00:00:44] All right. So I thought I would start with asking you, what hill would you die on, that has to do with politics or culture? Is there one?

[00:00:57] Andrea: I mean, I think I have so many that I don't-- I was, I was like, "I don't even know how to pick one."

[00:01:04] Carmen: I have one.

[00:01:05] Andrea: yeah, go.

[00:01:06] Carmen: Okay, so mine would be that okay, this is gonna be grumpy. Like

[00:01:16] Andrea: You, you meanie

[00:01:18] Carmen: okay, this is, this is, um, this is a hill I will die on as well. I've been saying that a lot this year. I have to stop saying it. But, um, being pro-choice does not mean you're pro-abortion Pro-choice does not mean you're pro-abortion. And, and I think it matters. It matters because,especially people on the left, which is you like on the extreme

[00:01:44] Andrea: I'm already like, "Da, da, da, da,

[00:01:46] Carmen: There you go, you're already

[00:01:47] Andrea: You wanna see me?"

[00:01:48] Carmen: We're the attacker." No, no, no, because, because here's the thing. I actually think the wording of using the word abortion, which is the actual, uh, clinical thing that they do, actually makes it so real.

[00:02:03] And I get the idea. Well, that's the point. We don't wanna hide behind words or whatever. But my whole thing is like I don't know any one woman who is actually pro-abortion. Do you know what I mean? Like e- nobody-- Here's the problem with people on the right. People on the right believe that we get our nails done in the morning, and then we meet up for lunch, and then later that afternoon we go get an abortion, and then that night we go out clubbing.

[00:02:30] Do you know what I mean? There's like this weird idea that it is not a real serious medical decision and conversation, and it, it's not an easy thing at all. And I think to kind of make it sound like I, like I'm all, "Yeah, everybody, anybody who wants to go, just go get your abortions." Like that's not, I, that has never been, something that I've ever advocated for or thought of.

[00:03:00] I think it's a real serious personal decision that a woman needs to make, and she has a right to make that decision. So that's where I fall on it.

[00:03:10] Andrea: Okay. I mean, I wouldn't say I'm like pro-abortion because I don't, you know, my preference would be people aren't in that situation. I'm definitely pro birth control. Um,

[00:03:25] Carmen: pro birth control. Absolutely. 

[00:03:27] Andrea: um, that said, I mean, like I do think anyone should be able to get an abortion anytime they want.so I guess if that makes me pro-abortion, then that, then that's what it is.

[00:03:38] But I-- To your point, yeah, it's verbiage and also it's not... I have never known any woman who's like, you know, "All right, so I'm gonna go have brunch, and then I'm gonna go get my abobo, and then I'm gonna go get my-- go, go shopping after." You know what I mean? Like it's not, it's not a white

[00:04:01] Carmen: do know that that's what a lot of people on the right and conservatives actually think. And here's, here's, here's my, here's my problem.

[00:04:10] Andrea: it's them doing it

[00:04:11] Carmen: Well, yeah, and then, and then, then it's all hush hush, secret secret, whatever, blah, blah, blah, especially if you have money somehow, not even a conversation if you have money.

[00:04:20] I think too that the other part of this that's really important is... 

[00:04:23] that people on the right don't understand how serious of an issue it is, and I have my feelings after five months of the fetus because it's not exactly five months.

[00:04:38] They do it by weeks, but it's about five months where the fetus could be viable on its own. Every woman is different. Every situation is different. And I think that's where you start getting into more delicate conversations as to whether or not you, quote unquote, "believe in abortion." And here's where I fall on this.

[00:04:57] It's still none of my business. That's not-- It's still-- It's between the woman, her doctor, her family, her God, her whatever. Like, it's still... Like, even though in my heart I'm like, "Okay, if a fetus becomes a baby and can, can exist outside my body on its own, I might be more hesitant to be okay with it." You know what I mean?

[00:05:23] And still pro-choice, still

[00:05:26] Andrea: Yes, agree with that for sure. But also the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of abortions that happen after, uh, a fetus is viable are

[00:05:43] Carmen: Where?

[00:05:45] Andrea: r-rare, but also those are babies that are wanted. Th- there's a reason, a medical reason, which is none of my fucking business, why those are happening, and those are babies that people wanted

[00:06:00] Carmen: Right. And those are usually because it's after 24 weeks, right? That's the-- They use it weeks. I was like, "I need months. I need to understand months." Like how big is the person so I understand. Um, yeah, because usually at that point they've already built the crib, they've already done... You know, and this is like we're talking about, uh, someone who actually wants the child, which usually at that point, that's what we're

[00:06:22] Andrea: life is in danger, the child's life is in danger.

[00:06:25] Carmen: Yeah,

[00:06:25] Andrea: gonna have to carry a, a, you know, dead fetus in her body. Like, there are actual medical reasons why that happens. And so again,

[00:06:37] Carmen: Again, none of my business.

[00:06:38] Andrea: business

[00:06:40] Carmen: None of my business, yeah. But I do think it's important because I've always been an advocate of Planned Parenthood, and this is kind of why I wanted to bring this up. Like, I grew up with community healthcare, and Planned Parenthood was a big part of that because the way I grew up, a lot of people grew up this way.

[00:06:58] If you don't have the money, you don't have, the ability to go and get healthcare. Community healthcare services where I was growing up, it was called the JP Health Center or the Jamaica Plain Health Center, and then there was like Planned Parenthood. They don't, they don't just do abortions. They do healthcare.

[00:07:17] They like check if you're sick, they, they give you prescriptions if you need them. They, you know, g- give you advice. They give you healthcare.

[00:07:27] Andrea: No

[00:07:28] Carmen: Like, and this is the thing I don't think people understand. They think Planned Parenthood equals every time you walk in, they're like, "Legs up, let's do it. And then let's get our nails done."

[00:07:37] I'm serious. I've had fights with men, Andrea. I've had fights with men and, and, and these are predominantly, except for one, religious men. I've had fights, arguments, conversations. I'll say conversations. And I always say to them after we have these conversations, I'm like, "I, I have been fortunate enough that I knew about birth control very young."

[00:08:01] I never-- And even with birth control, you could get pregnant, so let's just be clear about that. But I've never, I, I, I've never been pregnant. Okay, we'll just say that. I've never been pregnant. And I tell men this conversation, "Do you think that if I came to you and said, 'Oh my God, I don't know what to do.'

[00:08:20] You know, I'm younger, and I'm like, 'Oh my God, what am I gonna do? I, I think I need to get an abortion. I need to go speak to someone.' Do y-knowing me as you know me, do you think I would be taking that as some little easy thing?" And not one of those men were like, "Oh, absolutely. It would be like no big deal to you."

[00:08:38] Like, why would you think it's such a flippant, easy thing? And it's not. And I know three women, I probably know more, but I know three women who actually had to have an abortion.

[00:08:48] One of them wasn't a woman, she was a teenager. Um, and those women were in, I don't know what the right word is, crisis? Like pain, angst about having to go through it. I don't even know what the right word is 'cause it's something I can't even describe. Like I can't describe it

[00:09:08] Andrea: Yeah. It's, it is not a light thing at all.

[00:09:13] Carmen: Yeah

[00:09:14] Andrea: For, like, same, like no one that I know that's done it thinks that it's not a big deal

[00:09:21] Carmen: What, you, you know people who said it was not a big deal?

[00:09:23] Andrea: No, I'm saying that I don't know anyone who, who has done it who thinks like, "Oh, it's whatever. Sure."

[00:09:29] Carmen: No, and I, I know one of them to this day always, 'cause they now have like three kids, that to this day they still remember and they have kind of idea of what they would've been born and you know what I mean? But it was a health issue and they had to do it.

[00:09:44] And, um, and I can-- I think that's the other part of it too. It's like most women, and w- I'm not, I'm not even talking about rape or it, you know, all these other horrible things. I'm just-- 'cause that's a whole other conversation. I don't know why anyone thinks somebody who's been raped or harmed or whatever should be forced to...

[00:10:02] That-- I don't even wanna have that conversation with you people,

[00:10:05] Andrea: I can't engage with that at all 'cause

[00:10:07] Carmen: Not at all. But, um, I, I just remember, you know, having this conversation with this one woman, and to this day, when you talk about children, if you know, if you knew her back in the day, you know that there was actually four, you know?

[00:10:23] And it's, you know... In, in her mind, in her mind. Not-- I, I would never say that, but yeah, so. Yeah. Anyway, that's a hill I would die on. Just 'cause I'm pro-choice does not mean I'm pro-abortion, and I would a-advocate and say on behalf of a lot of women, none of them are pro-abortion, like excited by it. 'Cause the right needs to understand that.

[00:10:44] That's not where we're coming from at all. Yeah.

[00:10:49] Andrea: Okay. I guess one, like, I don't know if this is a, you know, a hill, but, um, one of the hills would be, uh, as you know, I'm pretty far left, right? And, um, I-- But however, um, I think people need to stop looking at politicians, hoping for them to be, uh, heroes, saviors, someone you wanna have a beer with, frankly, even someone you like that much, right?

[00:11:21] Like, it doesn't fucking matter. F- first of all, they are none of th- they are not heroes, they are not saviors. Um, probably don't wanna have a beer with most of them, let's be honest.

[00:11:30] Carmen: I know I'm laughing because that is so George W. Bush. Like that

[00:11:34] Andrea: remember that whole Joe the Plumber thing? Um, um, or that was Obama, right? Um,

[00:11:41] Carmen: W- w- what was

[00:11:42] Andrea: the Joe the Plumber thing. I was, I was thinking Joe the Plumber where they sat down and had the beers with like,

[00:11:47] Carmen: I don't even remember

[00:11:48] Andrea: Yeah, whatever. It doesn't matter. We won't go there. they're just, they're a means to an end. I mean, they're people, they're human, obviously. Very flawed humans, just like all the rest of us, so you can't really expect purity. And so I think a lot of people want someone who is, like, completely aligned with everything that they believe in, and, like, you're just never gonna get that, right?

[00:12:13] Carmen: than that, they, it's a single-- Like, I kind of, I hear you, I know what you're saying, but I'm gonna disagree. I'm sick and tired of the single voter people, like the

[00:12:22] Andrea: Oh, the single issue voters. Yeah.

[00:12:25] Carmen: Stop doing that

[00:12:25] Andrea: that's what it's like. I'm not gonna throw away my vote on someone who has no chance of winning, even if they are completely aligned with what I believe in. Like, I'm just not doing that. And, you know, um, and I'm also not gonna throw away my vote on a single issue.

[00:12:43] Like, I'm super far left my-- but I am also very, very pragmatic, and I'm not ever looking for any politician to be like, "Oh," you know? Like, I think that's ridiculous, and, and it's, it's, uh, it stops people from voting, I think, you know, to go to one of your other questions, right? And it's like, you're just not gonna find that

[00:13:06] Carmen: Yeah, I think, I think what's happened with Donald Trump is it's a, it's a little bit of that, but it's also cultish. And I know people keep throwing around the word cult all over the place and, you know. But h- here's the thing that people don't understand about cults, and the only reason why I know this is, a person that we worked for, one of their children is part of a religious cult, right?

[00:13:31] I'm not even gonna name the religious cult, but I said religious cult, and you probably can all guess what it is. But the thing about it is, and this is not all Trump supporters, but I would say the vast majority of people, especially those who have turned, cults find you when you are vulnerable, right?

[00:13:50] They find you when you are in that space where you are in transition, when you're looking for community, when you're look- when you're lonely. These are not all negative things, but this is how they get you. This is how they get you in, and then they give you a lot of praise. They validate a lot of the things that you think you believe in, and then what they start doing is little by little, they start pushing that line.

[00:14:14] 'Cause once they have you in emotionally, it's done. There's nothing this man can do that these people will not agree to and find a way to twist themselves up in pretzels to, agree with now because they're so emotionally hooked in, So  I agree with you, but I think the line-- Like, there's that line of celebrity where we're like, you know, whether it's like a Meryl Streep or a James Earl Jones.

[00:14:39] Like, when I saw James Earl Jones, I was like, "Hi." I was like so excited. and I would've joined his cult too that one, but because I've always revered him 'cause I thought he was so amazing and great, and then I met him, he's like, oh, he's just a regular person, and he stutters just like I do. And it was like a cool thing, but in the beginning of it.

[00:14:59] But the difference is he didn't try to take his power that he had and saw me in a vulnerable moment and try to hook me in to make me believe anything and everything he says.

[00:15:11] Andrea: Great

[00:15:14] Carmen: I don't think politicians should be saviors, but you know what? If you're gonna be a leader, you have got to be able to deliver on shit, and sometimes it feels like saving

[00:15:25] Andrea: Yes, I would agree. But I think, you know, people like think of the early Obama years, the early Obama months maybe

[00:15:33] Carmen: Yeah.

[00:15:35] Andrea: right?

[00:15:36] Carmen: on him quick.

[00:15:37] Andrea: they sure did, right? People started to get disillusioned real quick, and it's like he's not the Messiah, people. He is just a man and, and a pretty center dude politically also

[00:15:49] Carmen: He was very center. Like I always say him and Hillary were pretty much the same except Hillary had much more experience than he ever had. but no, you're, you're right. And I think the thing that happened with President Barack Obama was that he, it was so new and it was so unbelievable, and then everybody had hopes, and then patience seemed to go right out the door because he was supposed to do everything within the first six months, you know, for everybody.

[00:16:22] Andrea: mean, it was like, it was so fast

[00:16:26] Carmen: It was so funny. I remember getting into fights with gay people about Barack Obama because remember they were so upset. And I was like, "It's been three months." Like, oh my God. And I kept thinking, especially in the beginning, but even in his second term, that he was gonna be assassinated. Uh, I mean, I just-- I, I don't know how else to explain it.

[00:16:44] I kept thinking I would wake up the next morning and there would be... Like, that was my big fear, you know? Um, and well, not, you know, Trump has been-- Trump and his assassination things that keep happening. We never heard of anything with Barack Obama or any other president. Uh, did you-- Except for Reagan when he actually got shot.

[00:17:05] Andrea: Yeah. Well, yeah, that was

[00:17:07] Carmen: That obvious. live, right?

[00:17:11] Andrea: and actually did get shot

[00:17:13] Carmen: Right. But that's what I'm saying. It's like I, I feel like we hear about these every couple of weeks now with this guy. Every time he wants to change the subject, I feel like there's a new assassination attempt. And everyone does this. Everyone's like, "Next." And it's like, 'cause you're crying wolf too much.

[00:17:29] And what is with the Secret Service if they can't do their job and keep their mouth shut? But when has the Secret Service ever been this incompetent and this newsy about everything?

[00:17:42] Andrea: Yeah, the vocal. Yeah, really strange

[00:17:45] Carmen: It's really strange. Anyways, okay. what's a belief you had at 20 that you absolutely do not have now?

[00:17:52] You already know mine, but we'll talk about it later

[00:17:55] Andrea: Yeah. Uh, I would say, like, I was trying to figure out what this was. I guess, like, uh, when I was 20, I guess I still kind of like believed that, you know, sort of like the Founding Fathers were good guys who, you know, just lived in a different time and that kind... Like, I remember actually very specifically I was really into Thomas Jefferson, right?

[00:18:20] I had read an, a biography, and he was like, you know, really well-read and into books and music and food, and I was, you know, and he started a university.

[00:18:32] Carmen: his life? I,

[00:18:34] Andrea: What's that?

[00:18:35] Carmen: I said did, did you skip over a huge, big

[00:18:38] Andrea: yeah, well that's the thing, right? And I was like, I was still kind of in that mode that we are in when we're children where it's like, "Don't really look at this part." Don't-- You know, it was just, it was a different time.

[00:18:52] Carmen: Yeah

[00:18:52] Andrea: People thought about it differently, and I think I just hadn't awakened fully to that, right?

[00:18:58] And even, I rem- I remember specifically in this book, um, you know, they, with the whole Sally Hemings thing, right? They didn't refer to it as rape or sexual assault or anything. They were lovers. Um, which is like... So I still kind of like, I just hadn't fully checked in on that, and then once you do, I'm like, "Oh, okay."

[00:19:25] Like, yes, it was a different time, but it wasn't like they didn't know. There were plenty of people around who were saying this was wrong and this was bad, and specifically Thomas Jefferson actually believed and knew that it was wrong and wrote about how it was wrong, but still did it. George Washington did not give a fuck.

[00:19:46] He thought, "I, these are my people that I own, and I should own them, and you should give them back if you find them." Like, he did not care at all.

[00:19:54] Carmen: didn't care.

[00:19:55] Andrea: But, and, and, you know, to a certain extent, obviously neither did Jefferson, but, um, but he knew. Like, he wrote about it being wrong. So that was something that, you know, I think I was probably in my mid-20s or maybe, you know, something along those lines before I was like, "Oh yeah, these guys are actually pretty fucking nasty and bad."

[00:20:17] Carmen: So I, I've already admitted this, but I really, really believed that the United States was the best country in the world. Which is so weird to say

[00:20:27] Andrea: Oh, you want to pinch your little teeth.

[00:20:30] Carmen: Like, that was so cute. You're adorable. no matter how much I have traveled, and I haven't traveled as much as I would like to travel, but I still... You know, I thought people reve- there was a point where people did revere us, though, especially during the Barack Obama years, but that wasn't-- They still didn't think we were better than they were.

[00:20:51] You know what I mean? Like, 'cause we're not. Even back then, we were not. Um, but the hope of who we were, I even had just, like, even as I saw it dwindling, like, the whole 9/11 thing was probably my first time that I started really kind of getting a bigger idea, um, 'cause so many things just didn't make sense.

[00:21:11] You know what I mean? Like, wait a minute. You know what I mean? Like, when you start understanding how 9/11 hap- and I'm not a conspiracy theory at all, theorist at all, but we did lose one of our friends in 9/11, Cesar Murillo, and so you start to question the government a lot more, you know? And you start, um...

[00:21:31] But even still, it wasn't up until, I'm not gonna lie, probably Black Lives Matter when George Floyd, uh, was murdered that I started really understanding about Tulsa. You know, about all of these different, uh, Rosewood, all of these different places where we just didn't learn about our own history. And, um, we d- and when I say our history, I mean A- American history, all of the United States' history, not Black history.

[00:22:00] Was there a specific moment that inspired you to wanna write that particular op-ed? Uh, I will tell you, I read a, I read a New York Times piece on a 100-year-old survivor of the Tulsa Massacre, and my question was this: What's the Tulsa Massacre? You know, I, I, I, uh, i- as a, y- I was taught American history every three years growing up, fifth grade, eighth grade, uh, what comes after e- 11th grade, and then I studied in junior college, and I've read it ever since for pleasure.

[00:22:33] How is it that it wasn't until two years ago that I heard about the Tulsa Massacre? How is that possible? I've heard about Custer's, uh, ma- uh, the Little Bighorn. I heard about the Alamo. Um, you know, I heard about the Triangle Shirtwaist fire. You know, I heard about all kinds of disasters in which people died, but I had never heard about this thing that happened in 1921, only three years before my dad was born, in the same year that Donna Reed was born.

[00:23:01] We didn't hear about this thing that happened in which essentially one of the most successful Black communities in America, Black Wall Street, in which everybody was not only burned out of their homes and their businesses, but then driven out of the city limits by an angry mob of, I'm sorry, white people.

[00:23:18] How is it that this was not taught to me? Because I tell you, at the age of 10, when I was in fifth grade, living in Oakland, California, that would've been a moment of enlightenment for me, that would've told me something very, very different about the city I lived in, not just American history or the city of Tulsa, and it made me mad.

[00:23:39] It made me mad that somebody had somehow made an editorial process of what was appropriate for us to learn about our own American history. It made me angry that I, that it took until I was, uh, what? I'm, I'm 60. I'll be 66, uh, just, just about two weeks after Juneteenth, I'll turn 66, and, uh, it took, it took me 64...

[00:24:04] It took me 54 years in order to find this out. It's not right. It's not right, and it's doing a disservice to all of America in order to not point out some very, very simple, and I'm, dare I say it, facts that can be accepted, I don't wanna overuse the word dispassionately, but it can be viewed dispassionately.

[00:24:23] That's what happened. Nobody alive today is guilty over of it. Nobody alive today is to blame for it except perhaps the people who said, "Let's not talk about that." That's not right. We should be able to talk about all of these aspects so they will teach us more of the fabulous story of our diverse history and understand where we all come from.

[00:24:44] I knew more about my Portuguese heritage than I did about bl- being Black and living in Tulsa in 1921. That's not right. It's not, it, it's, it's not what an education should be, and it's not what the grand, I think, lesson of even something as basic as our Pledge of Allegiance should be when we're gonna dare to say the words, "With liberty and justice for all."

[00:25:08] We didn't have a mo- That was not liberty and justice for all, and that's not right, and it made me mad. 

[00:25:13] Carmen: when, when you take out the importance of what happened in the Tulsa Massacre and Rosewood and all these different places, and you don't have that as part of the overall history of our country, we're all losing out. We're all losing out. and then, of course, I started backtracking and thinking about how I learned about different authors, how I lear- and I realized it was always...

[00:25:39] It wasn't because it was part of any program. It was because somebody went out of their way out of force to make sure... like for example, I went to the University of Vermont. I went to college at UVM, which is, at the time, and probably still today, 3% people of color in the state. You know what I mean?

[00:25:57] And in the, and in the school. It was a very white area. And, even the school, even the classes we took, right? They were very, Eurocentric or whatever the word is. In English class, MJ Dickerson, she was one of the best professors I ever had. even though the syllabus said certain things, she made us read people like Toni Morrison and, 

[00:26:18] Maya Angelou. She act- Maya Angelou actually came to UVM. That's when I first met her. And, Alice Walker. And I keep thinking of, you know, all of the great I had never read any of these books in high school. How did I get to college before I started reading some of these amazing books? I didn't even know about Frederick Douglass till I got to college.

[00:26:43] Andrea: Same

[00:26:44] Carmen: and I would say I've read more books as an adult about our history and from authors who are of color than most anyone that I know that went to college with me. Because once you see, you kind of-- You know what I mean? So it's not part of the curriculum for us to read. I mean, maybe now it is, but I mean when I was in school.

[00:27:06] Okay, wait, what were you gonna say? You want to take-

[00:27:09] Andrea: Well, now they're banning books, so maybe now it's

[00:27:11] not, but 

[00:27:14] Carmen: Right. I think, I think James Baldwin and I think, um, I think Ralph Ellison's "Invisible Man," that was the first book I think we read. I think that's been banned, right?

[00:27:24] Andrea: I think so, yes. In some

[00:27:26] Carmen: which is...

[00:27:27] Andrea: Mm-hmm

[00:27:27] Carmen: Anyways, I don't know. I'm just saying like, yeah. Anyways, I, I, it's not, I still have faith in this country.

[00:27:36] I say it all this time, I still have faith in who we can be, but I feel like we've learned a really incredible lesson for those of us who were in la-la land, and I don't mean LA, I mean la-la land thinking we were the best country in the world. And the world has every right to be angry with us. And like every time I see something on social media where they're dissing us, like we have healthcare, we don't pay anything.

[00:28:04] You know? Like you'll see people doing all these things. I'm like, "Okay, yeah, we deserve it. Go ahead." You know? Um, so yeah

[00:28:13] Andrea: Yeah

[00:28:15] Carmen: You have nothing to say to me, but I feel like you

[00:28:17] Andrea: I don't. I mean, I, you know, you know how I feel about it. I just, I just I don't know. I just never bought into it, and I don't, I don't think like that. So I couldn't ever s- sit here and be like, "Oh, I, I thought America was the greatest country in the world, and now I don't." Like, I just never thought that.

[00:28:39] And it wasn't that I thought it was bad, I just don't think in that way. It's like, okay, well, there are

[00:28:43] Carmen: So okay, Adria. I'm like, I'm like, I don't think in that way. But you did say the other day that you think that you have-- you think we could be who we claim to be. You said it the other day.

[00:28:55] Andrea: We could if

[00:28:56] Carmen: Yeah, we could

[00:28:57] Andrea: that choice.

[00:28:59] Carmen: It's not gonna happen though. Not in our lifetimes. I don't think it's gonna happen in our lifetimes.

[00:29:03] I'd love to be surprised. I thought we were on the right trajectory.

[00:29:07] Andrea: Yes

[00:29:08] Carmen: I thought we were on the right trajectory, and then we

[00:29:13] Andrea: We have gone so far backwards, like we've backslid in such a major way that it w- if, if we reach our potential or even anything close to our potential, I absolutely do not believe it will be in my lifetime

[00:29:28] Carmen: Yeah, it's gonna be a long time. I think, and w- what I mean by that, so people are clear, when we elected Barack Obama, that felt like we were on a different trajectory. And I think not electing a woman, not electing Hillary Clinton was weird. It was weird because, because like, I mean, just the qualifications

[00:29:55] Andrea: I mean, yes, it, you know, it was a big deal to pot- to vote for a woman, let's put it that way. Um, and

[00:30:04] Carmen: But it should not have been. It should,

[00:30:05] Andrea: it's, well, whatever it was, like it just was, right? I took, I took my daughters with me. You remember that. I, I waited in line for six fucking hours with my little girls and my mother to vote for a woman for president.

[00:30:19] It was a big deal, right? Um- And so there's that. Yes, right? But like, like it, like it just gives me chills 'cause it makes me so, ah, like enraged. Like to go from Barack Obama to potentially Hillary Clinton, a woman, whatever, and to end up with Donald motherfucking Trump is like, okay I'm out. Fuck this, right?

[00:30:54] Like, I'm not, I, I still vote, whatever, but it's like, we... What happened?

[00:31:00] Carmen: Yeah. I mean, that's when I took my flag off my car. I used to always have a sticker on my car. Remember? I always had it. I was so proud to be an American, a United States American. Like even that, I catch myself all the time from saying America and only considering the United States when actually America is what everyone we learned from Bad Bunny.

[00:31:19] What did we learn? Like America, right? Canada, North America,

[00:31:25] Andrea: continents, multiple.

[00:31:27] Carmen: Yeah. It's a lot of them. So it's just, you know, even that, even that, like not even learning correctly those things should tell you who we are as a country when we're, we're... I still have faith in us, but it's, it's mind-boggling to kind of be like, damn, why?

[00:31:48] Why, why, why not be honest? Why not be proudful of what we actually are as opposed to making it up? I mean, I know the answers to all of that, but they're not good answers, you 

[00:32:01] Andrea: No, they're not acceptable answers, but they are the answers

[00:32:06] Carmen: Yeah. Uh, what is one of your political cultural pet peeves?

[00:32:14] Andrea: I don't have a good answer for that. I mean, probably what I already talked about, right? Like people expecting perfection from politicians and either checking out of the process completely 'cause they didn't get everything that they wanted or their one thing that they wanted, right? And, and, you know, to hell with everybody else that's gonna be affected.

[00:32:37] Um, or, uh, you know, I guess that's pr- probably it, like, you know, expecting perfection from these people.

[00:32:44] Carmen: Yeah

[00:32:44] Andrea: just-- They're, like I said, they're just, they're flawed humans and you just have to, you know, it's, I think I read somewhere like it's not a marriage, right? It's not forever. It's, it's like taking a

[00:32:58] Carmen: we hope it's not forever.

[00:33:02] Andrea: God.

[00:33:03] Carmen: I don't know what's happening

[00:33:05] Andrea: yeah, like this, this one person was saying it's like taking a bus, right? Like you're just trying to get over there, from here to there, right? You can get off the bus, you can choose a different route and still get there or whatever. Like it's, it's not a forever kind of situation, so just, you know, make your decisions accordingly.

[00:33:23] Carmen: Yeah, I think I had feelings about that when it came to the Supreme Court. Now I just think they're all a piece of shit. Like, not all of them, but most of them. You know, like I used to really revere the Supreme Court. I used to be like, "Oh my God, they're amazing to me." Now I'm like, "Yeah, no, whatever."

[00:33:40] Andrea: know that I revered them as much as I thought that there was some

[00:33:45] Carmen: I thought they were learned. I thought that whatever that word is, like, you know, they knew their shit and they're, they're just as susceptible to politics, clearly. Easy

[00:33:54] Andrea: Yeah. I mean, yeah, I guess I did believe that there was some place above politics that they, that they were, you know, not that I thought they always got it right at all, but, um,

[00:34:07] Carmen: Right, right

[00:34:08] Andrea: but yeah, they're so low and debased at this point, it's really sad.

[00:34:15] Carmen: It is kind of sad. Um, I think one of my pet peeve, I have a lot of them, but one of my pet peeves is I... First of all, people don't vote in this country, and it kills me 'cause I keep thinking about the struggle to want to vote and needing to vote, whether you're a woman, whether you're a person of color.

[00:34:32] It's like, it's so weird to me and so many other countries that don't have the ability to vote. You know what I mean? Like, just how, or it's not taken seriously. And like, again, I know we're about to deal with this coming up, but I, I think that's a pet peeve. But also, we don't have, like, a national day of voting, so we don't get a day off to go vote, or we don't make it easy to vote.

[00:34:54] Now we're gonna try, now they're trying to make it harder, and people don't even see that. So that's kind of one of my pet peeves, the structure in which we, um, w- we don't even teach, like, civics in class to tell people, like, how important it is. Like, people don't know the three... Like, people don't know the basics of their own government, right?

[00:35:15] 'Cause we don't

[00:35:16] Andrea: is hot, uh, but

[00:35:18] Carmen: in my school, and it wasn't taught in a lot of schools 'cause a lot of people I know who graduated with high school diplomas cannot tell you the three different parts of the government. They can't

[00:35:32] Andrea: I mean, I, well, yeah, I can, I can only like I, you know, I've only gone to school in California and it's, it-- back in my day it was required that we, you know, like government and that was a required course and

[00:35:43] Carmen: Bro, I just went to a graduation. I could ask three of those kids, they're not gonna be able to answer that question.

[00:35:48] Andrea: Well, okay, so it, it being a requirement and it actually being taught so that they take it in are maybe two different things, right?

[00:35:59] Carmen: I am going to say that most people in this country do not understand the way their government works, and it's because we do not make it-- We, we don't even have a good reading level in this country anymore. We can't even pass math. Why are you arguing with me? It's like, maybe your kids have a great education, but I'm just saying it, we do not, we do not take education seriously in this country.

[00:36:23] We don't. We don't pay our teachers enough. We don't, and, and so that's part of my pet peeve, you know? And, and the thing is the, the, the problem with politics, I wasn't taught it either. I didn't know about it until I was older and understood that it affected me. And I went to Catholic school. Oh my God, you know, like I went...

[00:36:42] Supposed to be the better school. So I'm just saying, it's one of these things that, you know, it affects us every day. It is, it is part of our lives, and we do not understand it. People learn more from TikTok about their own government than they do in school, which I know makes you really happy 'cause you love TikTok

[00:37:05] Andrea: Bring back Schoolhouse Rock.

[00:37:09] Carmen: All of it. Of course. 

[00:37:11] Um, political myths we grew up with

[00:37:19] Well, I, I wrote some out. Uh, America is a melting pot. I think that I think... I, I remember that as, like, the concept, and then I remember somebody changed it and said, "No, we're like a salad bowl because we don't blend together. We're like, you know, you're a tomato, you stay a tomato, but we're part of the meal."

[00:37:38] And I'm like, I, I, you

[00:37:41] Andrea: Not a fondue. I said not a fondue.

[00:37:45] Carmen: We're not a fondue, right? Like, I just, I, you know, I don't know what the United States is. I don't know. That's, that's my

[00:37:56] Andrea: fire?

[00:37:58] Carmen: 'Cause I would think if we're a salad, we all gonna get the same, you know, flavorings of the salad dressing, right? So they're all together, but that's not what happens.

[00:38:07] But yeah, that's one of the things I grew up believing. Um, also, and you may relate to this, but this idea that you can work, you can come from nothing, work really hard, and make it. I think that's probably the biggest

[00:38:21] Andrea: pull yourself up by your bootstraps

[00:38:26] Carmen: Why doesn't it work, Andrea?

[00:38:29] Andrea: If you don't got boots, you don't got bootstraps.

[00:38:34] Carmen: Yeah. I think that's one of the biggest myths too. Um, but I, I mean, is it true or did we just lose our way?

[00:38:44] Andrea: I don't think it was ever true.

[00:38:46] Carmen: The American dream

[00:38:47] Andrea: I mean, look, we've talked, we've talked about this before. So like, well, and I would argue it's not just American, right? Like, people can come from nothing and make something out of themselves anywhere, literally anywhere. It doesn't-- It's not just the United States, right?

[00:39:05] People can do that anywhere. Um, and I, I don't think it's necessarily because they are a special kind of person with a special kind of work ethic or whatever. There are a lot of breaks that have to happen along the way. Um, but the vast majority of people in this country or really any other, um, who are born with nothing, um, maybe can make a few strides, but systems are set up such that you can only get so far unless you have a lot of breaks that go your way or you-- someone takes a shine to you and offers you a certain type of support or whatever.

[00:39:53] Carmen: But I think that's why a lot of people come here is because they think that there's possibility in the United States, at least in the past, right? Like, people would come here because opportunity was somehow, I don't wanna say easier, but more probable if you did do XYZ, if not for yourself, then for your family, your children, your...

[00:40:14] You know what I mean? Like, they'd have a better-- That's why people come here. Um, I think, I think part of the problem, and whether it's worldwide or whatever, I don't-- I have no idea, but I think the systems that are set up in place, and I'm so fixated on this whole billionaire thing 'cause I feel like it, it feels like so new that we're just continuously talking about billionaires as if it's not a big deal that there are people that have the amount of wealth that countries don't have.

[00:40:46] You know what I mean? And there are still people suffering in their own country or in their own state, and it's like, to me, it's mind-boggling. But I think what bothers me is you live on the idea that if you work really, really hard and you do your best, you will be able to pull yourself, fuck the boo- the bootstraps analogy, but you'll be able to, to be at least safe.

[00:41:10] You'll have a, a place to live. You'll have food on the table. You'll have some sense of security, and you'll be able to grow old with dignity. None of that is true in the United States. None of that is true at all. And yes, unless you have what is whatever opportunity, whatever you wanna call it, unless you do have somebody who walks in and, and anoints you, you are not going to get anywhere.

[00:41:36] And what I mean by anointing you, I mean like if you go to a bank and a bank says, "Yes, we'll give you a loan based on all your, um, great payments, your great credit score, and blah, blah, blah. We will-- We trust you because you have proven." Clearly, I have personal experience with this. I pissed about it. "You have a great credit score, you have a great income, blah, blah.

[00:41:56] We'll give you a loan to start this blah, blah." And then they still say no because your name is Suarez or whatever it is. What-- It's certainly not bad credit or anything like that. To me, and it did happen to me, I think I said it a few times before, but because it was shocking to me. I always thought like, well, if I, you know what, if I have my credit score not at like 700 or not at-- Like my, my credit score was always hovering at like 698 or something.

[00:42:25] Like it was always like and then, and then somehow it just shot up to almost 800. I was like, "Oh, you know what? I'm gonna get me a loan." But if you don't have collateral, if you don't have a co-signer, if you don't-- It doesn't matter that you have paid all your bills. It doesn't matter that my story could be a fucking movie.

[00:42:45] You know what I mean? It's like everyone else's. But you know what I'm saying. Like I- that's what bothers me about this country, and I'm not saying that it's a lie. I'm saying it's not true for most people. It's not true for most people, and that's what we're all told. We're all told that. And, and, and the latest thing is that I should just like basically shut up and dribble.

[00:43:08] Like I should be grateful because I have had so much success already. Like that's the other thing that people try to throw my way

[00:43:17] Andrea: Okay, fuck them.

[00:43:19] Carmen: Yeah. Yeah, but that's what people try to say. Like, I've had so much, like I should be grateful because I made it this far, and I'm like

[00:43:29] Andrea: Okay.

[00:43:29] Carmen: That's more about them, I think though, but that's not a whole other

[00:43:31] Andrea: yeah. Well, and like, it's not like you don't have a degree of gratitude for your life also

[00:43:41] Carmen: Yeah.

[00:43:42] Andrea: I'm not, I, uh, I'm, I was about to say something

[00:43:47] Carmen: know. No, that's it. That's it.

[00:43:49] Andrea: no. I just, I'm not gonna, I don't wanna get into

[00:43:51] an 

[00:43:52] Carmen: no, now everybody's gonna wonder what it is

[00:43:54] Andrea: No, it's not really, I mean, I just feel like that's, it's not, people who don't know you and haven't lived your life and don't, uh, uh, or are an actual part of your life have no idea what your degree of gratitude is for whatever, so they can shut the fuck up.

[00:44:13] Carmen: Yeah, and I know you say disrespect me 'cause I know what you're trying to say, but it's like gratitude. Why do I have to have gratitude? Just give me my fucking money. I know people I know people who are pieces of shit who scam all over the place. They get loans to pay other loans, and they're constantly doing this, and it's like I, I don't understand.

[00:44:35] Banks will keep giving them money, but they won't give good people money?

[00:44:41] Andrea: Yeah

[00:44:43] Carmen: I'm done with the banks. I'm done. I cannot wait until the day I make it big 'cause it's gonna happen soon . Like it's gonna happen. 'Cause I'll show you, and I'm gonna name names when it happens. I'm gonna call out all the banks. I, I was in a fight with this one bank, like, for the past, like, four months just going back and forth with them, writing letters, sending it to the FCC, which was a waste, which was a waste.

[00:45:11] But I, like, not the FCC, I forget the one that's in charge of the banks or whatever. But, and I-- 'cause I was livid, not because they didn't give me the loan I asked for, but the way in which they went about treating me during the process

[00:45:24] Andrea: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to go back to the original point, like the systems are set up against most people.

[00:45:34] Carmen: Most people. It is, right? The 1% or the 2% have it easier than most of us. And if anything, that's where we should be gelling. That's where we should be connected, is understanding the disparity between all of us, regardless of race and anything else. The-- That's really-- They're doing things to keep us divided, right?

[00:46:01] It's not the Democrats. It's not the Democrats. It's wealth that is doing everything to make sure we're more concerned with the gardener or the farmer who's picking our crops, right? That's what we're most concerned with so that we don't have to pay attention to the people who are living large and laughing at us as they, you know, keep spending their money and doing what they have to do.

[00:46:27] Andrea: Нет

[00:46:28] Carmen: a little bit?

[00:46:29] Andrea: No, I don't, I don't think that you are at all. That's, I mean, not to go too far deep into it, but that's part of the point of like the media capture by that class, right? It's like, "Oh, okay, let's make sure that we're, you know, ginning up the drama and the controversy to keep people distracted and focused on the controversy of the day so they're not looking at us on our yachts," right?

[00:46:57] "Destroying the environment and all of the other shit we're doing," you know? It's a hot mess.

[00:47:07] Carmen: anyways, I don't know what else to say.

[00:47:09] Andrea: Yeah, girl

[00:47:10] Carmen: All right, if you could fix one thing about American political culture, what would it be? We'll end with that

[00:47:15] Andrea: That is it. I would fix the media environment, um,

[00:47:20] Carmen: She would also eliminate all social media

[00:47:23] Andrea: Well, yes, that would, that would be how I would fix the media environment. Um, no, seriously though, I think that there are a lot of really fantastic, honest journalists who wanna do objective, great reporting, but I think the environment, the larger environment doesn't, doesn't support them, and we're all, speaking of social media, off in our little bubbles, whoops, myself included.

[00:47:47] Um, you know, and so that there's, there's not really any, like, shared agreement on what the truth is anymore. So it makes it really, really difficult to come together, um, and look at what, what's happening above us.

[00:48:07] Carmen: Yeah. Although there is truth because I, I have to be careful because people, people like to play this-- Not you, 'cause I know that's not what you meant. I know what you said. Um, and people can rewind what you said to understand. There is objective truth. There is. There is objective truth.

[00:48:25] Andrea: lack of agreement on what that is, but there is actual objective truth

[00:48:30] Carmen: Right, because people are trying to pretend that you can have other kinds of truth. What was it that woman said? That blonde, ugly ass woman? I'm gonna

[00:48:40] Andrea: Oh yeah, I'm

[00:48:42] Carmen: Remember she said something that's, um, I don't know, something like fungible truth or something she said, but there are-- It was some weird thing she said, and that kind of stuck, not in my head clearly,

[00:48:53] Andrea: Yeah. Well,

[00:48:54] Carmen: it.

[00:48:54] But yeah, I remember she kinda tried to make it like it was something else. It's like, "Bitch, no, that's not how this works." Yeah. I think I-- You know what? I'm gonna say something that's unpopular opinion. I'm gonna say this. I don't think all these guys from back in the day, all these wonderful white men, Walter Cronkite, Peter Jennings, I know your favorite, Brian Williams, Tom Brokaw, Tim Russert, all these people, they, they were delivering the news, but they all had a side to it.

[00:49:28] They had a bent to it. I think, I, I think we've lost the ability... I think we've lost our moral core. I think that's really the problem. Like, it's okay to lie and call it truth. I think it's okay now to, to be a bad person and then to cover it up somehow. You know what I mean? Like, so I, I think it more, it's more about a moral core.

[00:49:51] But you and I both know we could, right down the line, all of those men, they were not Republicans. They were not. And if they were Republican, which they weren't, they were like independent. I think Tim Russert was an independent or whatever. they still had a moral core,

[00:50:08] Andrea: Yeah. Well, and they believed in journalism, right? They believed in,

[00:50:13] Carmen: ¡Chin!

[00:50:15] Andrea: me, even if it's in a direction that makes me personally uncomfortable, that's where I'm going.

[00:50:22] Carmen: Right. For sure.

[00:50:24] Andrea: Yeah.

[00:50:25] Carmen: So, okay, cool. 

[00:50:28] Well, thank you for hanging out. I appreciate you. And everyone, thank you for hanging out for another episode of Culture and Consequence. And remember, at the end of the day, it really is all about the joy.

[00:50:37] Bye, everyone.