Ancestor Dreams and Crafting Spirit Houses Connect Us to Magic with Matthew Venus

Matthew Venus of Spiritus Arcanum shares insights on working with spirit vessels, building magical community, and developing personal relationships with plants and other magical allies. Drawing from years of experience as a shop owner and festival organizer, he offers a refreshing perspective on connecting with magic through animism and spirit communication.

• Exploring the dangers of putting magical teachers on pedestals and the importance of recognizing everyone's humanity
• Building local magical community through Salem Witchcraft and Folklore Festival, a hybrid event offering advanced classes and unique ritual experiences
• Performing actual witchcraft in Salem's historic Witch House as an act of reclamation
• The lasting influence of Scott Cunningham's accessible books on Matthew's path as a young queer practitioner
• Developing reciprocal relationships with plant allies like cinquefoil (five finger grass) that reveal unique magical applications
• Crafting an ancestral dream spell using personal items connected to departed loved ones
• The power of speaking intentions aloud to help manifest magic through physical vibration
• Using divination as a conversation tool with spirits rather than just fortune-telling

Check out Matthew's upcoming book "Ensouling the Effigy: The Witch's Arte of Enspirited Objects" coming in October from Crossed Crow Books, or visit salemwitchfest.com to join this year's festival either online or in person. Use code AVERAGEWITCH for 10% off at Spiritus Arcanum.

SpiritusArcanum.com

Chapters

• 0:04 Welcome Back to Matthew Venus
• 6:20 On Celebrity Heroes and Pedestals
• 18:17 Building Magical Community in Salem
• 27:16 Salem Witch Festival's Unique Approach
• 35:45 Influences: Scott Cunningham and Sink Foil
• 44:15 Study History and Ancient Magic
• 55:37 The Snake Charmer's Memory
• 1:01:36 Crafting an Ancestral Dream Spell

Transcript

Kimothy: 0:04

Welcome back to Your Average Witch, where every other Tuesday we talk about witch life, witch stories, and sometimes a little witchcraft. This week I'm still talking with Matthew Venus of Spiritus Arcanum, an online and brick-and-mortar shop on the outskirts of Salem, massachusetts. In this second half we talked about Salem Witch Fest, brought some love for Scott Cunningham, and we worked together to craft a spell to connect with our ancestors. Now let’s get to the stories!

Kimothy: 0:38

This conversation reminds me of on, don’t meet your heroes, and number two, neil gaiman and the harry potter franchise, and all these people that we hold up and hope they're great like joss whedon, and it turns out they're kind of shit people.

Matthew: 0:42

Yeah, I, you know it's kind of a, for me there's also this like no gods, no masters, like kind of kill your darlings, I don't like being told what to do, so I kind of fall on that part.

Matthew: 1:08

Yeah, I don't do it. Well, the interesting thing too is like I don't do well with authority and I'm not a joiner. So it's fascinating that I actually have found myself in some of the practices that I have. But because I have been, and I actually the things I am saying here I'm also saying to some extent from based on my own personal experiences. You know, I've definitely had teachers throughout my years, but you know, I I didn't join into any lineage initiatory closed practices until quite a bit later in my life and  was like, oh, wow, I really wish to some extent that, some extent that I had done this when I was younger. Do you know what I mean? Because it would have, I think, helped shape me in ways that are really meaningful. And so not that I begrudge where I am and the things that I'm doing, but I think that I recognize that and I look at that in contrast to contemporary witchcraft. But back to your point.

Matthew: 2:03

Yeah, I don't like when people ask me like, oh, who is your favorite celebrity? Like I don't have one. I don't. You know what I mean. Like I might like certain movies or I might like certain actors and things like that, but I just- I don't have that gene, I guess, that wants to treat celebrities or authors, or I just don't like putting people on pedestals because I feel like it's unrealistic. You know what I mean? Yeah, sure, as a child I loved Bill Cosby. How'd that work out for everyone? 

Kimothy: 2:25

Oh gosh.

Matthew: 2:26

But like, but I mean that's a part of it, right, is it's like, I think that ultimately, I recognize that even as much as someone might have a flashy exterior or be able to create beautiful art or art or or or or anything really, doesn't mean that they might not also be a human being. That doesn't necessarily mean that they're problematic in the way that, like Cosby or perhaps you know, Neil Gaiman or whatever um are, but you know, they're still human beings, and I do.

Matthew: 3:00

I have experienced as a teacher, and part of the reason why I even say that thing from the beginning of my classes now, is because I have experienced people that have put me on a pedestal that I never asked to be put upon, and then the moment that they realized that, oh, I'm an actual human being that has struggles like anyone else, you know, that it's almost like I've let them down and I'm like, but I never asked you to do that and I never told you to do that, and I don't like that you did that. You know what I mean. Like I'm not letting you down. You've created a false image of me for yourself that actually was about suiting your own needs and your own purposes, and less about acknowledging who I actually am as a person. You know, and that's just that. And I I think culturally, that happens. So when I I know for me, when I know that I feel like someone might be doing that with me, I really try and nip that in the bud. Cause I don't feel comfortable with that.

Matthew: 3:55

Of course, there are plenty of people in this world that will absolutely court that, because they love to have their ego fed or they love to have power over other people and things like that, and that's the type of shit that you need to look out for.

Matthew: 4:06

Anyone who's too happy to accept that type of a role are usually the type of people that are going to lead to more problems.

Matthew: 4:14

But so, anyway, but I do think, yeah, there's an inclination amongst, I think, a lot of people to, because we like something that someone does or something that they did make us feel a certain way to kind of then put them in the role of like daddy or mommy you know what I mean? Or hero or this, like kind of almost superhuman status, that then when you find out that, oh no, they are in fact very human and actually have have allowed perhaps all of this kind of to feed their ego in ways that has led them down some dark paths, it can be incredibly heartbreaking, right? So yeah, I have a hard time, for better or worse, because I do think sometimes it's not always the best, for better or worse. I would say I don't have heroes. I have people who do things that I like and I like the things that they do, and that doesn't mean that I ever have considered that they could potentially be totally infallible. I hope this is an entertaining listen for people.

Kimothy: 5:23

I'm entertained! I mean… I'm really having fun in this conversation.

Matthew: 5:31

Well good, good.

Kimothy: 5:34

So I imagine… I think this is going to be a good one. Can you tell me- you've already mentioned one that I can think of but how you build community locally to you, in person community, not just online?

Matthew: 5:54

Yeah, well, yeah, one of them I'd say the biggest one that stands out for me is the Salem Witchcraft and Folklore Festival. That is, it's a yearly festival. We began doing it in 2019. And the first year we did it it was an in-person festival that we did here in Salem, and you know, we started out small, but a big part of it was Salem, Massachusetts is oftentimes known or referred to as kind of witch city, you know.

Matthew: 6:16

Meanwhile there's plenty of touristy things kind of going on here, and I'm not saying there aren't people that do like public ritual and things like that, but it's like you know, I've gone to so many amazing magical conferences in my life and why is there not that here, like, why is Salem does not? Why does Salem, the witch city, this place that's meant to be a Mecca for magical practitioners in a lot of ways, not have a conference that is centered upon magical education and community? And so it's kind of one of those things where it's like, you know, if you want to see it, you need to build it. And so myself and my good friend Jackie decided we were going to do it, and so we did it in 2019 and we did it in person. It was great. And then, you know, we all went in lockdown. So then for several years we did it as just an online event. For a lot of different reasons. We just kept it online after kind of… I don't want to say after COVID ended, because COVID hasn't ended, but we continued doing it online. But last year, so 2024, we finally went back to doing it as an in-person event. However, we do this as a hybrid event and, to the best of my knowledge, I don't know of any other conference that does this. We do it as a hybrid event. So we have an in-person event where people come. You can come to Salem, you can go to the classes in person. We do it as a hybrid event. So we have an in-person event where people come. You can come to Salem, you can go to the classes in person.

Matthew: 7:48

We have a bunch of different events that we do as a part of it that are really fun. Like, we do a film screening every year. The first year we did Häxan, which was the first movie ever about witches and witchcraft, which is a silent film, and then last year we did The Wicker Man, and so we do this at Cinema Salem, which is a local cinema here, and we do a film screening and then we do a panel discussion afterwards talking about the magic of it. And this year we're doing Practical Magic, which should be really fun too, and so we do like a film screening. We have a cabaret where we have burlesque and drag performers, and it's a costume party and it's really fun. But we also have, you know, several days worth of classes during the days with, honestly, I will say, I think that our conference falls into the realm of what I would consider to be an intermediate to advanced practitioner audience, just because of the caliber of presenters that we have and the specialized kind of realms of things that they talk about, which I think is great, because I feel like we provide something that you don't, that we need to see more of.

Matthew: 8:53

You know it's important for us, I think, as organizers, to highlight voices that we might not always see. We don't just choose a presenter just because they're a popular author, which there's nothing wrong with that. I love popular authors, a lot of them are my friends, but I think that there are a lot of voices in the magical community that we don't always hear from, you know. And some of those are people who do magic as a vocation, some of them are academics, some of them are both of those things. But really trying to highlight and promote voices that we maybe don't see all of the time, and, and you know, focusing on subjects that you maybe don't always see talked about all the time, cause they might feel a little too niche or maybe a little too advanced, for, like, existed both in what was happening in Salem, but also maybe what's happening in the broader realm of magical conferences, and just do something that was contributing to the broader thing. You know, and don't get me wrong, I think it's very important that there are a lot of magical conferences that are more at a beginner to intermediate level for people to come to, and so, but there's a lot of those, you know what I mean. So having something that's a little bit different, so we just, we do a lot of events with it. 

Matthew: 10:12

One of the crowning jewels of this particular thing for me that I think is one of the most meaningful is that for our in-person event, a part of what we do is we do a night of witchcraft and ritual and magic in the Salem Witch House, which, if people are not familiar with that, that is the only still standing really building. That has historical ties to the witch hysteria that took place in Salem and it is the house of the judge, Judge Corwin, where the first accusations took place, and so it's called the witch house, but it was actually lived in by one of the judges of the time. And so there is something, and I believe, to the best of my knowledge, that we are the first people who have actively done magic and witchcraft in that space. So really to have that trust by the caretakers there to allow us to do that is really meaningful. But also it feels like a real act of kind of empowering or reclaiming, if you will, to be able to do that in that space.

Matthew: 11:20

You know, and oftentimes the workings that we are doing, the rituals that we're doing, the focuses that we're doing with this collective and the people that are there for the conference are geared towards things like social justice, things towards, you know, liberation, protection, all of these types of things. So it feels really poignant, you know, as a part of what we do, I mean, I would say, a big highlight and, like you know, a really meaningful part of the work that I feel like I'm doing at this point in my life to be able to create an event like this. And the nice thing about this is, you know, we have so many amazing classes and presentations that also recognizing that not everyone can get to Salem and Salem is not a cheap town, it's not a cheap event to come here in person, but you know, you can attend online and get all of the classes and workshops that way, I think we have like 54 classes and workshops this year and you can get them online and then you can also actually have recordings of them so you can watch them whenever you want. So we try to make it accessible in a lot of different ways for people, and so it does create a broader online community, but also an in-person community, and it gets people here to Salem meeting new people. And also I love seeing people from kind of different corners of the magical world or witchcraft world kind of connecting with each other, like people that may be really serious academic occultists, like hanging out with folks that are predominantly known for being on TikTok and things like that, but them finding this connection and forging new friendships and making common ground where, if we were just existing in the realm of, like internet or whatever, maybe they would never really interact. You know, I love that, I love seeing those types of connections being made and also just the sharing of information and the mutual, the shared love of all things magical. So creating a container and a space for that is really amazing.

Matthew: 13:15

You know, one of the other things that I do it's kind of an extension of Salem Witch Fest is we do a couple of markets throughout the year, so we do a midsummer market and I do a midwinter market, and so those are markets that it is magical crafters, magical apothecaries, artists, clothing makers, all sorts of things. But it's got, you know, it centers around kind of a dark aesthetic and oddities and witchery and all of these things. But it's really bringing together a lot of the people that are kind of local but also abroad, like makers and vendors and things like that, which is meaningful to me as someone who you know that's where I got a lot of. My start was in these kind of vending events and so some of these people are my friends but also helping to highlight people that are just getting started out.

Matthew: 14:09

If I feel like you've got like an interesting thing and and quality goods or some things like that, trying to help people out in that way, and those are just always really fun events too, too, because I love seeing, I guess I love creating a container or creating situations or events where people make new connections and maybe find a new clothing seller or two vendors, become friends and next thing you know they're doing collaborations together or things like that. That is really cool, I think. So I'd say that that's one of the ways that I feel like I, you know, build some in-person community around here. I wish I had a bigger shop. I wish I had a bigger shop because if I did, I would be doing community rituals monthly and things like that, but my shop is pretty tiny so it doesn't lend itself to that, unfortunately.

Kimothy: 15:02

So can you remind us of how they can find out more about Witchfest?

Matthew: 15:08

Oh yeah, so the website is salemwitchfest.com. We have Instagram and I think it's also. I should double check. I should know my own thing, but the Instagram is also just salemwitchfest. The Instagram is also just SalemWitchFest all one word and so you can find us there. But SalemWitchFest.com is a good one to find out more about the event Because it takes place at the end of August this year, so there's still time to join us, either online or in person.

Matthew: 15:42

We have a lot of really fun activities for the in-person event this year. In addition to what I talked about, we also have a sunset cruise and we have trolley tours of the city where people will learn about the history of Salem, and we have plant walks and all sorts of other really fun things happening. So if you can make it, I encourage you to, and if you can't, you can sign up for classes online. You can sign up for a full package or day passes, or you can sign up for individual classes online if just one or two things really catch your interest and kind of see what we're about and some of the caliber of things that we have to present.

Kimothy: 16:20

While Matthew was talking, I looked at the website and I looked at the guest list. It's very long and I am very envious of people who get to go in person. I will say, one of the biggest struggles we have, and it’s a beautiful struggle to have, is choosing who we’re gonna have present. Because every year we are blown away by the response we get by people who want to present at this festival and it’s hard to say no to some of these presentations, but we only have so much space, literally.

Matthew: 16:57

This year we added a day so that we could have even more presenters, and I think pretty much everyone is only doing like one class, and so we have a lot of we have like, so that's like 54 some presenters, and they're all only doing one class, because we wanted to get as many people in as possible and give them a chance to like present, because we get so many amazing submissions and and so it's always hard to make that choice. But so we have. What we have is we have three days of in-person classes, which those run Thursday, Friday, and Saturday are the in-person classes, but they are also live stream, so people that are attending online can do those as well. But we also have an additional three days, which is Tuesday, wednesday and then Sunday, that we have those additional days that are just online classes and that what that allows is that we have presenters that also live in other parts of the country that couldn't make it to salem necessarily, um that are are presenting some of those things, or or just other people that are just doing those online.

Matthew: 18:00

So, all told it's like a zoom class, you know, specifically just for that. So all told, it's like six days, five, six days total of classes and 50 some odd classes. And the cool thing about it that if you come to the in person one, I don't know about you but like I've gone to so many amazing, magical conferences and it's like wow, why are like these three classes that I want to attend all of them happening at the same time.

Matthew: 18:21

And this way, even if you come in person or if you're online and there's something going on at the same time, it's all being recorded and you can get access to those recordings so you don't have to miss anything really.

Matthew: 18:32

And so how? I just think that's kind of an amazing thing to think that, like you know, this year alone, if we've got 50, I think it's, I think it's actually 52 classes going in, let's say on average that you know, we're we're looking at a two hour class, so we're looking at 104 hours of classes and information on so many different magical subjects. And you know, we really we strive to, we pay all of our presenters and we try to pay a competitive rate, you know, because we recognize the time and energy and effort that goes into this, you know. So sometimes people will be like, wow, your festival is kind of expensive, and I get that. But part of it is when you look at what it is that you get as far as the number of classes and information and the fact that we're also really trying to pay our presenters. That's a part of it all you know, so, so I get that.

Kimothy: 19:27

And for listeners, if you remember Brett Hollyhead who was on just like a couple weeks ago, maybe a month, I don't remember. Time is not real, but they are one of the presenters and I was really, that was a pleasant surprise to see that when I just glanced.

Matthew: 19:45

Yeah, Brett's going to be one of the ones that we'll have doing online because you know they can't make it here in person. So we've had Brett before, and Moss, and, I think, some of the other folks you've had on your show Nicholas Pearson.

Kimothy: 19:59

I saw a lot of familiar names.

Matthew: 20:01

Yeah, yeah yeah, Austin Fuller, Marshall is not presenting this year, but Marshall is going to be there. 

Kimothy: 20:10

Tempest, Corey Hutcheson is going to be there.

Matthew: 20:18

I don't know if you've ever had Frankie, Chaotic Witch Aunt.

Kimothy: 20:20

I want to!

Matthew: 20:21

Yeah, they're going to be. You should. They're great,  they're going to be presenting this year. They attended last year as an attendee and they're so wonderful and I'm really psyched to see their presentation this year. So, yeah, it's a really great time. You know, if you can get out here, if you've always wanted to come to Salem, I can't think of a better opportunity to do it. But if not, you know there's a lot of great opportunity to check out classes online and kind of see what we're doing yeah.

Kimothy: 20:50

Okay, think about the three biggest influences on your practice. Whether they're people or pets or other animals, or a plant, or like a book, scientific theory, whatever, thank them for the effect they have on your practice.

Matthew: 21:07

I love that. Well, I didn't think about that as like a broader.... I will say…

Matthew: 21:17

Okay firstly, and this is sometimes a shocker to people I owe a great deal of thanks and gratitude to Scott Cunningham and I understand sometimes, particularly from a contemporary or modern lens, that people have their criticisms of Scott Cunningham. But if it weren't for Scott Cunningham and his work, I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing. And I found his book like Wicca: Guide for the Solitary Practitioner, but more importantly his Encyclopedia of Magical Herbs, as well as his book Incense, Oils and Brews, when I was about 12 to 14 years old and that stuff really led me down the path that I am doing today, you know, and was also very approachable for me at that age. You know uh was also very approachable for me at that age, you know, and so I owe an absolute debt to him because I really don't think that this is what my life would be or this is the work I'd be doing if I hadn't found him at the time. That I did and and really kind of that led me towards really doing magical formula creation and magical apothecary and really kind of diving into the folklore and the magic of plants and things like that.

Matthew: 22:31

So absolutely big thanks to Scott Cunningham for the ways in which you know, also in his book, because Scott was queer or was gay.

Matthew: 22:39

You know also in his book I think it was in Wicca: Guide for the Solitary Practitioner, you know talked about how you know, at least in Wicca or paganism or whatever, that there was no judgment against homosexuality. Now whether that's absolutely true in all corners of paganism in Wicca, you know, I'll let other people decide whether that's entirely true. True, but at least for me at that point I was also very much at the, very much when I was stepping into my magic and my understanding of my witchcraft and my power was also very much when I was stepping into fully understanding who I was as a person and my sexuality and the ways in which that expresses itself, and so that was, that was also something that I think in the broader sense of the over culture and the religion of the kind of over culture I did not never felt like I belonged and and his work made me feel like I maybe found a place that I could belong. So that was pretty meaningful.

Kimothy: 23:33

He gets a lot of love in this, on this question. He gets a lot of love from a lot of people.

Matthew: 23:45

And he should, and he should. You know, and so there's that.  I would also say, if I'm going to, I I forgot that we can talk about plants I want to person. There's so many plants that I would love to think, but in particular, one of the plants that I have a very dear relationship with and that means a lot to me is cinquefoil, oftentimes also referred to as five finger grass, and I love all cinquefoils, but I have a soft spot in my heart for what's oftentimes referred to as sulfur cinquefoil. They have kind of woolier leaves, they kind of look like marijuana leaves almost, and they're more of a sulfurous color to the flowers. But that is a plant that has been very near and dear to my heart,, and it's also one of the first ones that I really learned how to like identify, I think in the wild. But it works very well because it's oftentimes viewed as it's like. It's referred to as five finger grass because the leaves it's like five to seven leaves usually and there it's used in Southern conjure and hoodoo and the like.

Matthew: 24:52

Oftentimes it's like a grasping hand and also that it can bring you all the good fortune that five. You know that five fingers can grab or hold on to or it can conjure up or whatnot, and sometimes it's said that the five fingers relate to five different forms of magic. Oftentimes it'll be like love, money, protection, health and just general blessings or whatever, but it'll also vary depending upon who you ask. But for me it also works as a plant ally, and this is one of the things when you start to really develop spirit relationships with plants and animals and other materia and things like that is that you'll often find that these become relationships like friendships and that these allies, that these spirits can work with you in ways, that you might not read in a book. And one of the ways that I tend to work with cinquefoil is you know how we were talking about bringing together disparate elements of things and the crafting of magical formulas or spirit houses and things like this. Well, one of the ways that I like working with cinquefoil one of the one of the ways that it revealed itself to work with me is it does kind of work like this hand that kind of grabs everything and brings it together and kind of holds these things together but also brings the disparate elements of a formula into harmony, all of these different kind of spirits working in concert. So we might almost view the hand of cinquefoil for me and the way that it plays out. For me is to be the conductor of the orchestra that's playing together in this thing.

Matthew: 26:15

So deep love for, for cinquefoil and lastly and this is what I'm going to try not to get too emotional about, we'll see how successful I am is my mother, who passed away a couple years ago.

Matthew: 26:37

So she, I think you know a lot of the qualities there are, qualities that I see of my mother and myself that I'm not always the happiest with, but ultimately I think that there are a lot of the things that I think are some of my greatest virtues.

Matthew: 26:52

I got from her, and not only that, really the, the level of support and love that I, I feel like I was shown growing up and I understand that you know there's a lot of people in this world that don't get that and being able to be celebrated for who I was as a person and to have my mother be excited by my uniqueness and creativity and oftentimes maybe afraid for me because she grew up in a different generation and worried about what people might think or what struggles I might face by being kind of different than the status quo. But I also think that my mother in her own way was definitely very proud, but I think in her own ways kind of blown away by my audacity sometimes, because she very much grew up in a what will the neighbors think kind of household. You know. But in the face of that very much was always an incredibly encouraging person and so I miss her every day.

Kimothy: 27:59

She sounds awesome. 

Matthew: 28:09

She was. Yeah, okay, I'm good. Yeah, it's. You know, I can't get too much into talking about her cause, then I'll become a mess but she was a great lady.

Kimothy: 28:23

Well, thanks for sharing that. Those, the stuff, the. I love hearing how people and things and whatever and there's a lot of words I could use because it's not always people or things but I like hearing how, learning about influential beings yeah, yeah. So, now that you've seen what it's like to talk to me and heard the questions, who do you think would be an interesting guest for the show?

Matthew: 28:56

I think if you haven't had I don't know if you've had him before but have you had Matt Auryn on here? 

Kimothy: 29:10

No, and I really want to!

Matthew: 29:11

 Okay, I'll see if I can put in a word.

Kimothy: 29:13

Yes, please. 

Matthew: 29:14

Yeah, I think Matt would be great on here. I'm trying to think of I mean there's a lot of other folks that I think could be quite interesting, so, but I think you've had a lot of. It's funny because I was looking through I'm like, oh, you've had Amy Blackthorne on here. Oh, you've had you know, this person or that person, but yeah, Matt Auryn, I think, would be great on here.

Kimothy: 29:31

I would love to have him. Well, is there anything that I didn't ask that you wanted to talk about? Anything that is happening with you, or did you have any questions you wanted to ask me? 

Matthew: 29:44

I kind of mentioned some of these things, but I would really love to shout out and promote my upcoming book, Ensouling the Effigy, A Witch’s Art of Enspirited Objects, that is going to be coming out in October from Crossed Crow Books. And a lot of the things that we've touched on today,  are throughout this book in more detail.

Matthew: 30:09

So it's a book that's not just about the crafting of spirit vessels, it is about animism, it's about reciprocity, it's about forming relationships with spirits, it's about doing spirit work, it's about so so many of these things, so as I said you, as I said you know, I'm hoping that this book inspires more conversations around these topics in the broader community. So I really hope folks will pick it up and check it out and that it will in some way inspire your practice. So that's coming out in October. It's been an absolute labor of love, and I will be very happy to have it out of my hands and out flying around the world. It's so that I can kind of take a break from it, because then you get very intimate with it and you struggle with it until it is fully born, and so I'm excited to have it out there in the world.

Kimothy: 31:04

I’m excited to see it!

Matthew: 31:06

Yeah, I, I, I it's. I'm very excited to see it as well. So we have that. Of course, Salem Witchcraft and Folklore Festival. Check it out. You know, check it out online you can. Actually, if you go to our website on salemwitchfest.com, we actually have the vault section, which is class archives from previous years, so you can even look over previous classes that we've had. They're available as recordings and you can watch something today if you see a class that looks interesting to you. So I encourage folks to please check out Salem Witchcraft and Folklore Festival.

Matthew: 31:38

Come see us in person or join us online and stop by Spiritus Arcanum and check out some of the wares that we have. And check out some of the wares that we have. For your listeners I will have a coupon that they can utilize for the next year, and it will just be all caps, AVERAGEWITCH, and if you use that at checkout, you can get 10% off of your purchase. 

Kimothy: 31:48

So fancy!

Matthew: 31:50

Feel free to check out the classes and courses that we offer through there as well. A lot of those are available as recordings or there may be classes.

Matthew: 32:16

I just started the next round of my Foundations of Witchcraft course, which is 13 months of animist traditional witchcraft. So we just had our first, our first class session. The next one will be next month, but all of those things are also recorded so folks can jump in and catch up and things like that. So you could do that or check out some of the other classes and courses that we offer. Some are taught by me and I also have guest teachers for some classes as well. We actually had Amy Blackthorne not that long ago, they did their protection magic as three classes through the Spiritus Arcanum, which was great. Yeah, those are the main things. Check those out. You know there's always some interesting things going on. Feel free to follow me on Instagram. That's where I tend to update about what's new for Spiritus Arcanum. So it's just Spiritus_Arcanum.

Kimothy: 33:10

Thank you.

Matthew: 33:11

Absolutely.

Kimothy: 33:14

Now the last two things that I ask. Thing number one is please recommend something to the listeners. It doesn't have to be witchcraft or witchy or magical or any of that. Just whatever you're into this week, recommend it.

Matthew: 33:30

Oh, wow, okay, what am I… What do I want to recommend to people? Shoot, let me. I gotta think on that. Give me a second. I'm like, I feel like I really should. There's lots of things I want to recommend to people

Kimothy: 33:43

Well, while you think I'm gonna tell everybody if you're in Tucson, I discovered Bosa Donuts, and those are the best donuts I've had in my freaking life. 

Matthew: 33:50

What are they called?

Kimothy: 33:51

Bosa, Bosa, b-o-s-a Donuts. It is a local chain. It is. They're the best things I've had. They’re the best donuts I’ve ever had.

Matthew: 34:09

I love that. Okay, pressure, what am I going to recommend? I don't know. This is what I would recommend and it's not a specific thing, so I don't know. It's more of an action. Study history.

Matthew: 34:26

If you're a witch who doesn't study history, start doing it. Start looking at historical books on magic, particularly things that came out from the early modern period and such, because you'll have a better understanding of the origins of witchcraft and conceptions around it. If you're not familiar with Agrippa's Three Books of Occult Philosophy, you should be, as a magical practitioner, because it had a huge influence on what we consider to be contemporary magic. Put down TikTok, pick up a book, that type of a thing, because a lot of what is being marketed and sold as witchcraft or magic, even in a contemporary setting, has no basis in the history of magic and we have a long, vast and varied record of the history of magic. That has just been and, honestly, we live in an absolute golden era of having access to that information that you're missing out on if you're not looking into historical magical manuscripts, grimoires, books on magic and all of those things, because it does really help put into perspective the ways in which magic has been understood, the ways in which witchcraft has been understood for the vast majority of their history throughout this world, and a lot of what we see on social media is.

Matthew: 35:45

I'm not going to say it's ineffective, but I will say that it's contemporary imaginings and not necessarily actively embracing the deep heritage and history of magic as it truly exists throughout history in the world. So that's my recommendation: Study history as much as possible, be curious, be inquisitive and even with all of that said. And to touch back on something that I talked about earlier, I always encourage folks to also question authority. Recognize the source that you're getting material from. Recognize it may be problematic, but that doesn't mean that there may not be some nuggets of gold to be found amongst a problematic pile. There are good ideas in bad books and bad ideas in good books. 

Kimothy: 36:31

While I do, love a snack recommendation, this sort of recommendation is actually my favorite.

Matthew: 36:33

 Snack recommendation. I mean, yeah, I snack enough, I should have something for this. 

Kimothy: 36:45

Not everybody is a Taurus, I get it.

Matthew: 36:49

Yeah, but yeah, that's my recommendation. How's that?

Kimothy: 36:54

I love it. It's great. I love that type where you just there's so many little bits of nuance and information that are applicable. I love it.

Matthew: 37:05

Good, good good.

Kimothy: 37:07

So the last thing is please tell me a story. It can be a story from your life, the kind that you would sit on a porch and your head just hanging out and you're like, hey, remember that time this dumb thing happened, that sort of story. Or it can be a story from your childhood that you've heard, that you loved.

Matthew: 37:29

So when I was a child, and still today, I had, and have, a deep love for serpents and snakes. I mean amongst, I've always loved reptiles and amphibians. I found them to be incredibly magical and interesting creatures. But and I love toads and frogs, but particularly snakes and serpents, you know if particularly snakes have been a big part of my magical kind of practice but also something that I was always drawn towards as a child and I used to, you know, find all of the snakes in the woods and land around me and I'd always want to catch them and hold them and they would oftentimes be, you know, very tame with me. And so I had this, I would say, if we're going to get, you know, mythopoetic about it this serpent charming quality to me and I also, as a child, used to spend a lot of my days very much. I was a nature boy. I'd trample, you know, around the woods lifting logs, finding salamanders, you know, just kind of spending time and communing with the plants and animals and could get lost, for, you know, hours and hours. And you know it's interesting because as I kind of got older, I I moved to an area where there wasn't as much kind of easy access to to woodland and nature and things like that. If you will. Around me and I also, this was more and more as I was starting to get into witchcraft and magical practice and I think I was focused a bit more on, sometimes, the tools and the doing things the right way and the ritual and the candles and all of these things about what witchcraft and what magic could look like. And it wasn't until I mean, of course, I still had my connections to nature and things like that. But I'll say one of the things that kind of was an interesting and transformative moment for me was probably in my late 20s.

Matthew: 39:44

I finally lived in a place where I was surrounded by. I had a lot more woodland near me and the area that I lived in. You know, I developed my magical practice. I certainly worked with plants and things like that, but I wasn't necessarily growing them and what have you. But the land around me also had all of these beautiful kind of different variations of natural landscapes. So there were areas that were like a meadow or areas that were swampland and there was a stream running through it. There was a coniferous kind of area of the forest, a deciduous one, and I spent more and more and more time walking this land and in doing so learned a lot about the landscape itself and the spirits that live there and the ways that they existed, kind of in concert with and in reciprocity and reliance with each other, just by watching and just by observing. And it's fascinating what you can learn if you're able to have access to natural places, what you can learn about those places just by walking them week to week and seeing what new growth has happened or what has died away, or perhaps what bones you find while walking in the woods that have been left from the previous winter and things like that.

Matthew: 41:04

So I did feel myself I think this is where I was deepening and really started re-embracing, I guess is what I would say the animist part of my craft and truly connecting with the spirits of the land, which I think is a really integral part of the form of. You know, I tend to refer to my practices. You know folkloric or traditional witchcraft, and I think that's a big part of traditional witchcraft is having a relationship with the land that you're on and that could, that you could live in the city or the country, it doesn't matter about understanding and having a relationship to the land that you're on, and I think this is an area where this really was awakened, even more so for me. I was truly being able to identify the plants around me and the animals around me and recognizing what fed on what and reawakening this awe and wonder and connection that I feel like I hadn't really felt since I was a child. And so, to kind of put it into like a perspective for me one day. I remember one of the.

Matthew: 42:12

I mean I had a lot of really amazing experiences just walking the land and kind of the messages that would come or the animals I would see or the things that I would stumble upon, like a certain plant that wanted to work with me or a certain type of animal bones that I worked into, magical objects or fetishes and things like that, and also giving offerings back to fetishes and things like that and also giving offerings back to the land and connecting in that way.

Matthew: 42:40

But one of the things that really stood out as a truly meaningful and magical thing was one day I was walking through this meadow area of this land and there was this tiny little stream kind of running through it and I was walking and I saw a little garter snake on the other side of the stream and it was staring at me and I started moving very slowly because I didn't want to scare it away, and I kind of locked eyes with it and I kind of crouched down a bit and I started kind of mentally speaking with it, if you will, uh, and assured it that it was safe and I wouldn't harm it, and I beckoned it to come closer and, uh, this little snake uh, started slowly coming closer and closer to me and literally crossed this little stream, um, and, and approached me slowly and curled around my foot.

Matthew: 43:32

And that for me was a truly magical moment, and not only just with serpent. But many who may be familiar with ideas or concepts such as the genus loci and things like that oftentimes know and it exists in many different cultures that oftentimes the spirit of the land will present itself as a serpent. And for me in that moment it was kind of a reaffirmation of a lot of things, but also my relationship to serpent, but also kind of feeling a bit embraced by the spirit of that land.

Kimothy: 44:07

That is the freaking sweetest.

Matthew: 44:14

Oh, thank you. 

Kimothy: 44:15

That sweet little baby!

Matthew: 44:16

That sweet sweet little baby, yeah, and and it was, it was very that yeah.

Kimothy: 44:28

 I love it so much. I'm kind of nervous about this next part because I don't know how different our practices are. But can- will you craft a spell with me?

Matthew: 44:36

Let's find out. Let's find out what I'm curious about this. What so? When you say to craft a spell with you, what are we doing?

Kimothy: 44:46

Okay, we are going to determine the... oh, my god, the word has just gone away. My brain keeps saying you mean intuition. It's not intuition… the meaning, the point of the spell.

Matthew: 45:00

The intention is probably what you're looking for.

Kimothy: 45:03

Determine the intention of the spell Okay, and then figure out how we would do that together okay, um let. I'm a dirt witch and I tend to just think I need to do blah, blah, blah, and then I go outside and I wait for something to say hey, this is what I'm here for, and I'd use it.

Matthew: 45:26

I love that. I'm definitely here for that kind of thing. Let's say that somebody wants to do dream magic for connecting with the dead or their ancestors. How do we like that?

Kimothy: 45:46

Ooh, ooh, ooh okay!

Matthew: 45:48

Yeah, does that get the juices flowing?

Kimothy: 45:51

Is it me or is it- we're helping someone else?

Matthew: 45:54

It could be. It could be you. It could be you. 

Kimothy: 45:58

Because I would like to use things that have meaning, for I'm going to say my granddad, I don't know. Granddad, yeah, it was a gardener, so tomato leaves. Okay, and asparagus plants like the berries. Those are two specific memories that I have of him, with him.

Matthew: 46:19

Well, I think that what you could, even you could, yeah, working with some of that and also even just the fragrance of those things, right, Because we know how much scent is tied to memory and that becomes a magical key right?

Matthew: 46:29

Yeah, absolutely. I love that. I would say things that I would maybe consider, like perhaps crafting a charm that could live under the pillow or be hung over the bedpost.

Kimothy: 46:42

 Like a bag? 

Matthew: 46:43

Yeah, like a bag. That could be Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that you could put some of the plant material in and then maybe even add other plants that you associate with dreaming. One of my favorites for this, of course, it's one of my favorite plants period is I love mugwort. 

Kimothy: 47:01

Me too! I was just going to say that!

Matthew: 47:04

And I think you know one of the things that's fascinating about plants too is you know, if you are lucky enough to live, like mugwort is everywhere here. It's, wow, funniest thing ever. Because where I lived in Michigan there was not mugwort growing everywhere. And when I moved here, because I grew up in Michigan, I moved to Salem, about 16, 17 years ago, and and I I should also say I moved here because I actually ended up in a relationship with someone who happened to live here, living in Salem, Massachusetts, and becoming a professional, which we're never really on my, on my, and what I thought would happen in my life. So it's fascinating. 12 year old me would be totally jazzed about this, but it was not what I was going to do.

Matthew: 47:55

But I brought this big mugwort plant with me. Cause I brought it from home, cause I was growing it in a pot, cause I love mugwort. And my partner at the time, who I moved out here with, was like cracking up laughing at me that I brought this big mugwort plant here because it literally grows everywhere. It's all over the place. But to the more to the point of this, I would say, you know, if we're looking to connect with spirits of the dead, perhaps gathering mugwort that you find growing at a cemetery, if you can find it, or if it has to do with the realm of dreams, maybe seeing if you would find a mugwort plant growing near the ocean or water somewhere, right, that then it kind of brings, by the virtue of where it's growing, its association with either the ocean or the water, those lunar type of elements that are tied to dreams and intuition and psychism, or, if it grew in the cemetery, its connection to the realm of the dead.

Kimothy: 48:53

See, I don't…. If I want to. I'm in the process of creating a space where mugwort will grow, but it's not going to grow in Tucson. 

Matthew: 48:55

That is difficult.

Kimothy: 49:01

So I've been trying to think of something, a plant, that that works the same way in my yard specifically. I mean sure I can find things outside my yard, but I am talking about.

Matthew: 49:20

It's great if you can find something.

Kimothy: 49:21

The two acres where I live, the way I interact with these beings, what I can use. Well, you know what I would use is the Saguaro, my beautiful Saguaro fell.

Matthew: 49:40

Is that- What kind of plant is that?

Kimothy: 49:43

The cactus.

Matthew: 49:44

That's what I thought.

Kimothy: 49:45

Yeah, the great big, like Wile E. Coyote. Yeah, the classic, when you think Wile E. Coyote.

Matthew: 49:50

Yeah, the classic when you think of a big cactus.

Kimothy: 49:53

Yes, and she fell and as she decomposed which seems to be happening really fast, in my opinion she smelled like honey, which is not what I associate with decomp.

Matthew: 50:09

Yeah, that's fascinating.

Kimothy: 50:11

So I would. I would actually go see if I could use a little bit of that because when I like the death. And the age.

Matthew: 50:15

 yeah, and I like that and I think that, like right, this is one of those things where you know also if you had a relationship with that plant right?

Kimothy: 50:37

I tried to. We've only lived here, for five years and she fell like a couple months ago.

Matthew: 50:41

So well, you know, one of the things that I always try to encourage people too is it's like, if you can like, go in your backyard and identify like five plants or you know whatever, go in your kitchen cabinet and pull out parsley, sage, rosemary and thyme. Really get to know those plants you know. Really get to know those plants. Do your study on the folklore of them and the phytochemistry of them, the culinary uses, the history of them, all of it. Get to know them well, because if you know five plants really well, they can do a lot of things for you. And, like I just was talking about with cinquefoil and how I work with it, I'm not telling you that you should work with cinquefoil in that way or that it's even going to do that for you.

Matthew: 51:17

That's my relationship with cinquefoil, you know, just like my friend John might be willing to help me move next weekend, but if you asked him he's gonna be like who are you? you know. So it's about developing those relationships. But if you have some, you know, sometimes plants will reveal to you ways that they can be worked with that are not necessarily traditional ways. I'm not going to suggest that you bring that into something that you're going to ingest or utilize as medicine because, you know, don't want anyone to die. But this is a part of forming relationships with the spirits of things. Right Is getting to know them better and sometimes they offer mysteries or other ways. So maybe this cactus that's one of the ways that it works with you. You know this particular type of plant, so I like that.

Kimothy: 52:01

Sort of bouncing off of that a little bit. I'm not from here, I'm from Virginia. So, I know about creeks and poison ivy Well. I still can't identify poison ivy very well, which is a story that I'm not going to go into right now.

Matthew: 52:16

Well, you know what's crazy is? I can identify so many plants, but I'm awful at identifying poison ivy. But I'll tell you this much for as much as I've tramped around in the forest, I've never gotten it. So I don't know.

Kimothy: 52:24

Maybe I'm those people. And it's always on my face. It’s always on my face. And it’s always a surprise.

Matthew: 52:28

Wow. I'm just not very good at identifying it. There's a million other things I can identify, but that one it's like I can?

Kimothy: 52:42

There's tons. But, not only can I not identify or it takes me a while to identify them, but the American Southwest is not one of. It's not in the books. Nobody knows what brittle bush is, or creosote, or I don't know what. That other some kind of pokey there's like scorpion weed. Nobody knows what that is. Nobody knows what to do with it. Palo verdes I and and I'm not going to go knocking on the door of the local indigenous people and say hey, can you educate me just because I'm standing here asking you to. That’s not their job. So I have to figure out my own ways to use things.

Matthew: 53:22

Yeah, yeah, so I figure out my own ways of doing it yeah, well, and I think that that's that's a way of doing things. You know is like developing your skill set and being able to speak, to hear, form relationships with spirits Plant spirits is a great place to start, you know, when people want to start working with spirits and kind of grow those relationships and see what is revealed to you and how it works for you. If a plant tells you it can do something magically or it'll assist you in doing something magically, give it a go, give it a try. If it doesn't work out, you'll be like I don't think you can do what you said you could do, or maybe my intuition is off or whatever. But like this is also a good way of starting to understand how oftentimes spirit relationships work, you know, and in an usually, usually in a somewhat safe way. Not that I'm saying there aren't plants out there that can kill you there are.

Kimothy: 54:15

The stuff here just wanted to stab you.

Matthew: 54:18

Yeah, yeah, fair enough, yeah, so, but, but, yeah, so, forming those individual relationships. So we got so far, we've got you got. You said tomato, yeah, we got a bag that we're putting tomato in, and what are we putting out? We're putting tomato leaf, and you said which is a nightshade, so that’s fun. And then what else are we going to put?

Kimothy: 54:37

Asparagus berries.

Matthew: 54:42

Mugwort, mugwort.

Kimothy: 54:46

Yeah, ideally and if I can, if and if I get, then some of the saguaro from the yard, okay, I like that.

Matthew: 54:56

Let's see. I mean stones could be a thing. You know. Yeah, it's interesting because I would be like, oh, if you can find if there's any like animal dens around you, like, if you, if you're out and there's any like you see, like I like sometimes, like for doing that kind of underworldy type of access things, if you find like an animal den in the woods or somewhere, if you can get a stone from near the opening of an animal as kind of like an access point to kind of underworld working, right, but you know you could, if we're also talking about trying to work with the realm of the dead, maybe a stone or some dirt, from that's growth that is gathered from near the cemetery gates. You know all of these things. I believe you know it's always important to leave some kind of offering, whether it's a bit of tobacco or, you know, breath or song or a coin or different things like that, but maybe a bit of that goes into it, right, or less a stone from one of those places or a bit of soil gathered from these places.

Kimothy: 56:05

Do you speak when you do this sort of thing? I generally don't, unless there's like a specific thing where I just repeat it over and over again.

Matthew: 56:15

Yeah, I do like to speak when possible, because I do, as I kind of said. You know, I think there's power in word and power in the breath, and so oftentimes I do think so. This is another thing that I oftentimes will say to my students. So this is another thing that I oftentimes will say to my students is that there's power in the spoken word and in part because I can have a concept that exists in my brain and its little synapses firing about, but it's kind of contained, right, it's kind of contained within my body and within myself and it hasn't really allowed itself to quote, unquote, manifest or escape or be out there. When I start to speak, something it is actually, it is, it is the first step in that thing manifesting itself outside of my own being, where the words themselves, the, the timber of my voice and all of that causes the air to vibrate, and so it's pushing this thing out and it's the first step towards that thing not just being a contained concept or intention, but actually something physically manifest in the world around me and manifesting itself through the exhalation of air and the vibration of sound. And that I also think that when we make that mental shift into, like I'm not just speaking in my everyday voice, I'm speaking in my magical voice and conjuring forth the attention of spirits or whatever that it can add some oomph that is not otherwise there.

Matthew: 57:48

I think there are certainly times to be silent or to whisper. You know you don't have to declare things out loud. There's certain workings where I'll be muttering my way through things or humming or whatever. But I do think there's a power in the word. So I oftentimes will call upon you, know, spirit of mugwort, I call upon you to bring forth your virtues, let's say your lunary virtues of insight, of dreaming, of calling upon the spirit realm that you may assist me in dreaming of my dead, that I may better know them, things like that, speaking forth to the different materia as you're placing it into the bag or container.

Kimothy: 58:28

I do that. I just don't say it out loud, but I like the idea of the vibrations moving. And I use breath stuff too, but I just don't say the words.

Matthew: 58:38

Yeah, try it sometime, see how it works. And I think it's interesting on some level Because it feels silly for a lot of us at first.

Kimothy: 58:46

Yeah, that's why that's a weird, that's a weird, that's a me thing.

Matthew: 58:50

Yeah, but that's, I think it's a cultural thing too, and but it's like it feels silly. But do you believe in magic? And like so? It's kind of one of those things. Allow yourself to get a little weird, allow yourself to be a little bit uncomfortable, because at this point, when I speak out loud, when I do magic, I don't have a second thought about it. Do you know what I mean? Like I don't, I don't feel weird about it anymore because I recognize the benefit of it in my own practice.

Matthew: 59:13

And you know again, I'm not here to tell anyone else what's going to work for them or their, their. You know their business, but give it a try. If you've never done it before, give it a try. I always encourage my students I'm like you know try it several times and see how it works for you before you decide it doesn't work for you. But I always encourage people give it a try. See how it feels for you Once you get past that this feels a little weird.

Kimothy: 59:40

You know I do not do this, but do you work with deity and someone that you would ask for help in it, or would you just try to ask the person or being that you're trying to talk to?

Matthew: 59:55

I don't really work with, generally, what I would consider to be deity in any traditional form. So I'm right there with you. I tend to, again, work with spirits. So it would be, you know, spirits of the materials that we're utilizing, right, the plants or the land or the place, right?

Matthew: 1:00:07

So, spirit of the cemetery gates, or the guardian of the cemetery gates, maybe, if we were including the stone right, maybe calling upon the guard and depending upon your tradition, maybe you have a specific spirit that is the guardian of the cemetery gates, but if you don't, you can always just say guardian of the cemetery gates when in doubt, and maybe, calling upon that, I would also probably call upon my ancestors themselves to bring their blessings upon this charm that I may better know them, um, that they will reveal information and blessings. You know, while I dream, so kind of going to all of those, those active, active, the spirits tied to the various magical material that's being added to the, the charm or fetish or whatever you want to call it, the bag itself, and then, those spirits that I'm hoping that this will assist me to connect with right there, who I would be speaking to, as opposed to a specific deity. But you know, of course, if you had some type of a devotional practice to a particular deity, that would be appropriate too.

Kimothy: 1:01:11

This is so neat. This is why I do this, because it actually helps my practice.

Matthew: 1:01:16

Oh, I mean, I'll tell you honestly, one of the best things about running a magical festival is I get to hear so many amazing people talk about so many amazing things. It's absolutely wonderful. I love hearing people's perspectives on things. It's like it's, it's absolutely wonderful, I love, I love hearing people's perspectives on on things, and I like getting diverse and different perspectives, you know, because I think, ideally, the more we can share with each other, hopefully, uh, the the more enriched each of our individual practices will be.

Matthew: 1:01:42

They don't all need to look the same, but you know, as I've said, some good ideas come from bad books and some bad ideas come from good books, but I like reading all of them for that reason, cause I just love magic and I love talking about all of this with people, because I think, when you stop being curious and you stop growing, what are you doing anymore? You know. So I'm always curious and I'm always uh excited to hear things, even oftentimes things that fly in the face of what I think. I know because I like to. Why do you do that in that way? That's weird, but you know it doesn't. We don't have to do the same thing or believe the same things are working the same way, but I just like hearing other people's perspectives.

Kimothy: 1:02:24

So for me this would be done. I would probably burn some stuff, but that's partly just because I like burning stuff.

Matthew: 1:02:33

Yeah, fair, but this would be done for me. I would just throw it under there and be like, okay, here we go.

Kimothy: 1:02:38

Yep, yep, yep Is this where you would stop, or would you do something else? No, I think that that's probably where I would stop.

Matthew: 1:02:44

You know what I also do and I'm going to throw this out there briefly, we don't need to spend too much time on it but I also really like to confirm a lot of things with divination. But that is also that is for me, in working in concert with different spirits that I'm working with. So you know, I have different divination tools that are dedicated to different spirits that I work with. So I might, you know, do a bit of divination to be like oh, is this formula going to be the most optimal for this thing and is there anything that's missing? Or maybe is there anything that needs to be taken out of this to make it? You know anything else that we might need to do with it ritually too, to kind of verify those things right.

Matthew: 1:03:21

I always kind of like doing that. So I would probably do maybe a bit of divination on it. But also, I'll tell you this much the more you do divination, the more you start to understand and trust when you can, when your intuition is hitting. So sometimes, if I felt really good about it, I'm like, no, this is good, it doesn't need anything else, Like, I might not, I might not do divine on it because I'm confident in the formulation of this thing, you know.

Matthew: 1:03:47

So one of those that would maybe be another step that I would throw in, but it just depends on how good I feel about it. You know, if I feel like this is good, this is solid, and I know it, I know it in my bones, I don't need to ask anybody else's opinion on it then I would leave it as is, you know.

Kimothy: 1:04:04

Listeners know that I am uneasy about divination. Listeners know that I am uneasy about divination, but I am pushing myself. I've started doing not daily readings, but if everything is working out, then I'll do a reading, so things like that.

Matthew: 1:04:20

I use divination predominantly for spirit communication, so, and it is oftentimes played out in this way, where it's like I'm having a conversation with a specific spirit. It's not like just a nebulous, I'm doing like a tarot reading type of thing and I'm speaking to an unspecified source.

Matthew: 1:04:42

Usually, when I'm doing divination, it is a conversation between me and some form of spirit, whether it's ancestral spirits or the ancestors of my clients, or particular spirits that I have relationships and pacts with that help me with certain types of workings. So that tends to be one of the primary ways that I use it, more so than just doing like, oh, what's my week going to look like, which? There's nothing wrong with that either just doing like a what's my week going to look like, which? There's nothing wrong with that either. But that can be a really good way to kind of like you know uh have a conversation with some of the spirits that you're working with.

Matthew: 1:05:18

I like that. Yeah, I do talk about that in my book too, so there's a bit of that in there too. Um, because I I oftentimes think that it's it's an overlooked, um, overlooked way of utilizing divination, and I really like systems of divination and this particularly. You find this a lot more frequently in a lot of African traditional practices but having systems of divination that can provide more like yes, no, maybe, type of answers, as opposed to just like pulling tarot cards, and so those can be good, because it's like is this formula complete? Yes, no, maybe. So it's like, maybe, okay, maybe Does something need to be added? Yes, okay, do I need to add? What about if I add this herb? No, okay, what about this one?

Matthew: 1:06:01

Yes, and you can sometimes feel those things out and it actually helps you develop your own intuition, because it's like you have to still come up with the questions you're asking, and how are you being led to answer those questions or ask those questions? Rather, um, it's usually by your own intuition that's guiding you towards the things. So sometimes it's like I'll be, doing a form of divination to confirm something, but it's like I almost already know the answer. I'm just doing it to confirm and it comes up like yes and it's like cool. So my intuition is like really on point. I felt that out and I was right. But it's getting that confirmation. So it has this dual purpose of furthering and developing your spirit communication but also furthering and developing your own competence and intuition and being able to tell when you're more on point with something as opposed to perhaps off base.

Kimothy: 1:06:49

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