How to Make Your Ideas Irresistible with Tamsen Webster

Nonprofits often struggle with making themselves heard and understood. We have fantastic ideas to share with the world - but why is it so hard to get seen and get noticed?

My guest this week is best-selling author and TED speaker Tamsen Webster. She explains, "Your idea has a story, because your idea is a story—and your audience needs to hear that story before they’ll act."

Part strategist, part storyteller, part English-to-English translator, Tamsen helps experts drive action with their ideas. Tamsen honed her trademark Red Thread approach in and for major organizations like Johnson & Johnson, Harvard Medical School, and Intel, as well as with hundreds of individual founders, academics, and thought leaders. She's a former TEDx Executive Producer and current Idea Strategist. Most recently, Tamsen was named to the Thinkers50 Radar thinkers to watch class of 2022. She's also the author of Find Your Red Thread: Make Your Big Ideas Irresistible.

In this episode, we discuss the common obstacles that keep nonprofits from communicating effectively, why storytelling needs to change, and how to get your idea across in a way that will inspire people to take action.

Connect with Tamsen:

• Web:   tamsenwebster.com
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tamsenwebster/

About Julia Campbell, the host of the Nonprofit Nation podcast:

Named as a top thought leader by Forbes and BizTech Magazine, Julia Campbell (she/hers) is an author, coach, and speaker on a mission to make the digital world a better place.

She wrote her book, Storytelling in the Digital Age: A Guide for Nonprofits, as a roadmap for social change agents who want to build movements using engaging digital storytelling techniques. Her second book, How to Build and Mobilize a Social Media Community for Your Nonprofit, was published in 2020 as a call-to-arms for mission-driven organizations to use the power of social media to build movements.

Julia’s online courses, webinars, and keynote talks have helped hundreds of nonprofits make the shift to digital thinking and how to do effective marketing in the digital age.

Take Julia’s free nonprofit masterclass,  3 Must-Have Elements of Social Media That Converts

Take my free masterclass: 3 Must-Have Elements of Social Media Content that Converts

Transcript

Julia Campbell  0:00  
It's March Madness people. No, not the sportsball March Madness. It's my 30th anniversary of being in business and I have a goal of hitting 100,000 podcast downloads. Here are three ways to help, One, download one or more of your favorite episodes, including setting your fundraising mindset with Rhea Wong, ethical storytelling with Caliopy Glaros, What the best fundraisers do differently with Sabrina Walker Hernandez, and my special series on What's Next in Social Media for Nonprofits, just to name a few number to share an episode with a friend or a colleague, you can go to pod.link/nonprofitnation to find descriptions and links to all the episodes. Number three, take a screenshot of the podcast and share with your network. Be sure to tag me so I can find it and share it out. Also, I truly appreciate all of you, your time, your attention and your passion to make the world a better place. Now, let's get to today's episode. Hello, and welcome to nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell. And I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers, and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the nonprofit nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently Find Your Voice. Definitively grow your audience and effectively build your movement. If you're a nonprofit newbie, or an experienced professional, who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started.

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to nonprofit nation. thrilled to have you here today. Wherever you're listening. This is your host, Julia Campbell. And today's very special. I have an old colleague of mine and older colleague of mine, not by age, but by how long ago was that we work together and one of my favorite authors and my favorite email newsletter authors here today. So I'm super excited to introduce my nonprofit audience to Tamsen Webster and Tamsen is part strategist, part storyteller, part English to English translator. She helps experts drive action with their ideas, and I think all of us listening can use a little more actionable tactics to convey our ideas. Tamsen honed her trademark read threat approach in and four major organizations like Johnson and Johnson, Harvard Medical School and Intel, as well as with hundreds of individual founders, academics and thought leaders. She's a former TEDx executive producer and current ideas strategist. She was named to the thinker's 50 radar thinkers to watch class of 22 and Chris Brogan, one of my favorite thought leaders and authors, calls her the best keynote coach he's ever met, and Tamsen is also the author of one of my favorite books, find your red thread, make your big ideas irresistible. So I'm so happy to have you here. Tamsen?

Tamsen Webster  3:31  
Oh, I'm delighted. And I'm delighted. Yes, yes. Yeah, nonprofit, the nonprofit world is my first and enduring love. So I'm delighted to chat with you. 

Julia Campbell  3:41  
Well, I have been a huge fan of your work since I saw you work. We work together on the Boston ED Talks in 2018. And I was helping them do marketing and social media promotion, and you were working hands on coaching the speakers. And for those who don't know, the Boston ED Talks, recognizes and celebrates teachers expertise and creativity. And as the name kind of hints, the format follows TED Talks, in which people address an audience for five to 15 minutes on an area of their expertise or an idea that they're trying to convey. So what I did, I would stay after the initial meeting to take photos and create posts and talk to the speakers and write content. But mostly, I would stay because of the magic that Tamsen would create with the speakers. You helped these speakers convey their ideas in such a compelling way. And these are people who are up in front of classrooms for a living, so you would think they wouldn't have a problem with public speaking. But I absolutely loved how you helped them hone in on what their idea was, and craft a narrative around how to best convey it and I think that all of my listeners nonprofits is especially, definitely need that kind of help. So I'm just thrilled to have you here today. And I'd love to hear more about your origin story, and how you came to do what you do now?

Tamsen Webster  5:09  
Well, when I was growing up, just like every other a little girl, I wanted to be an art museum director. Actually, from a very young age, I wanted to, I wanted to be an art museum director. But I discovered that there's not exactly a clear path to that. I don't know if I'm endlessly curious. So when I went to when I went to college, I started off in business and marketing with the focus got very bored, discovered, endless thanks to a wonderful academic advisor that I had that I had an opportunity to add a second degree to my undergraduate studies. And so I kind of fill that in with American Studies in our history. And then kind of proceeded on to say, well, I'm still going to be an art museum director. So I went got an arts administration degree and an MBA. And then when I actually started doing work, but it was related to it, which originally started out the Peabody Essex Museum. Oh, yes, yeah. It's a great museum up on the north shore of Massachusetts. I was doing exhibition, well, I started actually, in what we would now call development communications, didn't really have a name there. So my name at that point, like my title at that point, was the marketing development liaison, right? Like, is this? 

Julia Campbell  6:18  
Oh, yes. I'm sure we all know, we just like make up titles. 

Tamsen Webster  6:23  
We just make titles. But yeah, my job was to kind of make sure that, like what we were doing from a marketing standpoint, was a supportive of and reflective of what the fundraising priorities were, and then simultaneously, to make sure that the way that the gift officers were going out there was consistent with how we wanted to represent at the museum was about and as anybody who has spent any time in any nonprofit knows that your the gap between marketing and development can be as big as the gap between sales and marketing of the nonprofit and the profit for profit world. So that was fun. I mean, it really was actually I loved kind of sitting in between those two areas. And then I think a lot of ways, since I had done that, actually, all through college, and actually all through high school where I was very much in the arts, but I was also the manager of the varsity boys baseball team, like just sitting in between these two worlds was always a thing that I enjoyed doing, because it allowed me to figure out what was different about each but also what was the same about each, you know, a path to any number of different twists and turns, eventually realized that the more I was working in the arts, the less I loved the arts, not because it was more that the jobs were killed, like it became a job. And as soon as it became a job that I didn't get the same kind of joy out of it. But the thing that I did continue to get so much joy out of was this idea of what gives a particular institution or organization, or fundamentally the idea behind it power. And so I spent the read, you know, the kind of the, from there, you know, working in agencies working in whether that was brand strategy agencies or advertising agencies, and then I worked for a boutique messaging sales messaging firm, before I went out on my own, all of that was me focusing more and more and more on what is it about, and organization or an idea that really gets people invested in it, both figuratively and literally? And what can I do given this path that I've taken through the world, sitting in between two worlds? So often, what can I do to help make that easier, because there's so much good work, and so many great ideas that just gets stuck behind the walls of the institution or the individual that created them. And in my experience, oftentimes, it's really just the words and more importantly, the principles, those words reflect, that are getting in the way, and I just became nm still am obsessed with how do we how do we fix that problem? What is it that needs to be out there so that we can do that English to English translation that you talked about that we can translate from nonprofit to lay speak that we can translate from expert to every day, so that really people understand and are galvanized by what we do and why it's so important to the world.

Julia Campbell  9:21  
And they know you are a TED and TEDx coach. And the work that I saw you do in the Boston ED Talks, what I thought was so interesting about it is it's almost harder to consolidate your idea into seven minutes, right? Like, how do you help people like how do they how are you able you're just work so well, not letting them get ahead of themselves or, or helping them address like the curse of knowledge. So how did you get into that work?

Tamsen Webster  9:51  
Well, it's all kind of the same. So the TEDx work and I like I'm, even though some people think of me oftentimes as a speaker, coach, Is Chris COVID keynote? I mean, I am adamant that I am a message strategist that I have an idea strategist that I it's much more about how to how do you communicate the idea, and to me the other stuff is incidental. But yeah, getting something down into 10 minutes or less, particularly if it's your body of work or something you're really passionate about, is very, very hard. And I think the the best analogy that I can come up with on the spot for that, is that, have you ever been in somebody's house that's full of stuff like, and I don't mean to the extent of hoarding, but it's just, it's full of stuff. And I think everybody's house is fully, right. But you know, what, I mean, let's, let's use our own spaces, right, our own spaces are full of things that by and large, probably have meaning to us in in certain ways. And even some things that are fairly kind of strange and casual, like to somebody coming in from the outside for the first time that might think of it as quote unquote, stuff. They look at it as stuff and you look at it as like, oh my gosh, that is like one of my favorite memories attached to that curtain, certain thing or something that's hanging on the wall, like, isn't just a thing that in my case is hanging on the wall, there's actually there's actually a story behind what that thing is. And I think that's the challenge. Because what I mean is that it's hard when you know everything about your area of expertise, or your idea or your initiatives or your programs to decide, well, it's painful to cut out with to do whatever feels like cutting out all of the detail about why that thing is awesome or important or world changing. But to the somebody who hasn't introduced it, somebody walking into your house for the first time until they start to understand why some of those things are important. It's just stuff. And it can be an overwhelming amount of stuff. And so the reason why that's like I said it's challenging is because we have that curse of knowledge that you mentioned, we have like that full understanding of our darlings, our darlings, but but we can see, because we've spent so much time steeped in it, the sophistication, the complexity of everything that we do, and we can't imagine that there is a simple way to put that out there. And yet there is I found that over and over and over again. And you know, the the answer, as I have found over and over again, is to essentially keep digging, until you find really the core principles that your work and your ideas based on because it's at that point where you can say, and you can kind of communicate what you do to somebody else in a way that they not only understand it, but agree with it is a hard? Absolutely, because we are on we don't walk around thinking and principles that we know of. We just walk around with our ideas. So it really is a process of excavation to get down to what's what's there. It's kind of this like idea archaeology, like what's actually there. And then kind of reducing it to what you put in front of other people to the core principles behind it. And you can tune those core principles, you can articulate them in a way that is aligned with the understanding of the audience that you're talking to. So educator talking to fellow educators can use shortcuts, and language and jargon and kind of elusive references that other people wouldn't really understand. But underneath those are still principles like even below that. So really, that was the work at ED Talks. It's the work that I do, prior to the performance coaching at TEDx Cambridge, where I'm still the idea strategist. It's the work that I do with all my clients nonprofit, not to say what are the core principles understand, underneath and behind what you do, that anybody could understand and agree with. Because once we get there, kind of the magic that happens, you know, is that you end up presenting kind of the story of your idea, the story of your programs, the story of your organization's as something that they haven't heard before, but that they already believe in. And it's that combination that can be really magical.

Julia Campbell  14:10  
So, every time I honestly do this, and I'm not I like the compliment brigade here, because I've just been, I've been such a fan of yours for so long, that when the book finally came out, I mean, it is a framework for making your idea irresistible. So it's much more than a lot of what I tell my clients is, you know, I always show them Simon Sinek start with why or, you know, like you said, try to distill it down you have 25 programs, that was the essence of it, but you created the framework, and sort of the step by step way to do it in the red thread and also in your weekly newsletter. And I love the first sentence of the book. It says this book could have been one sentence The best way to make your idea irresistible, is to build the story people will tell themselves about it. And for any communicator, any speaker, I use it to prepare for my speaking engagements, even writing an email newsletter preparing for a podcast. I think that this framework, however, you know, it doesn't matter if you're writing a novel, it doesn't matter if you're writing an email can be really helpful. So I know it's a very, you know, it's a whole book, but can you? Can you kind of give us a high level overview of the framework? Okay.

Tamsen Webster  15:24  
Sure. Yeah. Okay. So the quick unpacking of that thesis of the book, which is that the best way to make an idea irresistible is to build a story people will tell themselves about it is based on a couple of things. One is that every every decision has a story. And more specifically, the story that we believe, because we're not rational decision makers or rationalizing decision makers, right, we tell ourselves a story about what we do. And story in this case isn't necessarily a once upon a time story is a causal relationship. It's this happened because this happened, or this will happen, because this is true, right? Like it's this, this causal relationship is really what I mean by story. And the idea that was behind the book, and the one that I tested out, you know, with TEDx Cambridge, and my clients and otherwise ahead of time, you know, so it wasn't just an idea, it was when I tested out before I wrote the book was that, since that's going to happen anyway, right, since that someone's not going to work with you, they're not going to kind of engage with your programs, they're not going to give you money, none of that is going to happen unless they can tell themselves a story that they believe about why that's the right thing to do. Let's just skip to that story and build that one. Because the hardest thing that we're going to try to do is to try to swing somebody over to our perspective, right. And I have yet to meet anybody who works in any branch of a nonprofit that feels like they've got enough time or money for something. So a lot of the efficiency and expediency that I that I tried to build in with this approach is very much rooted in that background was like, I don't have time to figure this out, I need to do something that's going to work, it's going to work quickly. It's going to work for like, all my different layers of donors, it's going to work, you know, for internally, externally, everything. And so is this idea of really flipping the story that you're telling instead of it being your story, your way, it's your story their way, it's basically saying we can just skipping to the end, what is the story that they would tell now? Great, there's the idea. I was like, Okay, well, how do we do that? And that's where I could go from these pre conscious causal stories that our brain will build anyway, to the Once Upon a Time stories that we tell other people, so the stories that we tell ourselves, you know, the way that, you know, my, again, you know, the next hypothesis I had was, well, what if the stories that we tell ourselves have the same components as the stories we tell other people we're gonna have on the surface? That might make sense? Because other way, like, why would the stories that we tell other people have certain components, because maybe those are the stories that we need knew those are the elements that we need to have ourselves. And it does seem to turn out that that works, right. So if you can break using the elements of the stories, we tell other people to kind of figure out how to talk about your organization or your idea, you are essentially going to create a story that someone can tell themselves. And again, it's not necessarily going to come out like a once upon a time story. But there are going to be certain things that are the same one, it's going to have the same components to and this is important, it's going to have the same elements that drive action in it, I'll get to those in just a minute. And third, so that's the intelligent like the intellectual logical piece. But then for the emotional piece, when you have these elements, when you can articulate an idea in this kind of structure, you're gonna have the emotional appeal of the story, that kind of up and down. And you think that Nancy Duarte talks about like sparklines is kind of up and down. And emotional highs and lows are going to be built into what you say. So even if you don't tell it like a story, it's going to feel like a story to your audience. And it's going to be understood as a story by their brains. And so that was really where that whole approach came from. So then the question, of course, was, what are those five elements? Or what are those elements that all stories have? And you're like, Whoa, whoa, okay. Well, yes, the answer, what are those questions?

I would have memorized?

Well, so the quick version, you know what they are. So quick quiz, Julia. What are the five?

Julia Campbell  19:32  
Goal problem truth change and actions? Now, I do have I do have to confess I still sometimes struggle with the truth and change aspect. So yeah, so those are the two that I struggle with because obviously the action at the end you want someone to take I feel like I for some reason can really grasp that I think nonprofits can grasp that say it's donate or you know, sign a petition, whatever it is.

Tamsen Webster  19:58  
Or or even it's just describing how you You do what you do typically those those elements of we've got, you know, three main like. So when I worked at the box conservatory, we had three main divisions. So it's like, how do we deliver on our educational message? Well, we've got three divisions, we've got music, dance, musical theater.

Julia Campbell  20:13  
How do you deal with multiple audiences?

Tamsen Webster  20:15  
Okay, so let me back up first, if I may, to why those are the pieces just kind of a quick explanation, because some of that might answer that question of the difference between the truth and change. And then we can start to talk about how do you adapt it for different audiences. So using the framework of the stories that we tell other people, and what drives the action of a story, is that the action of the story typically happens, like it starts when we discover something that the main character wants, but does not yet have. Right? So something that they want, but don't yet have. And that can be really specific, right? Like they can be like, I'm trying to figure out how to

Julia Campbell  20:57  
How to retain more donors. Yeah,

Tamsen Webster  20:59  
How can we retain more donors, right? But it can also be, you know, to for your non nonprofits, it can be kind of much broader, right? Like how to get someone to care? How do we get someone to care? Or what how can we, you know, to line up with a fair number of my clients these days, how can what can we do to mitigate climate change, for instance, it can be big things like that to little things, big things. But as long as it's something that your audience wants, and doesn't yet have your brain is going to go is curious, and going to lean in? Because it's like, whoa, what's the answer to that? Why don't we have an answer that question. So that's the goal. And what's really important about that is to remember, and I try to drill this into people's head, it's the audience's goal, not yours. I mean, ideally, it should be shared with you. But this is the audience's goal. So skipping forward to your other question about how do we adapt what we do for audiences, it all the adaption all happens at the goal, the adaptation all happens at the goal 

Julia Campbell  21:50  
Before you even start 

Tamsen Webster  21:51  
Before you even start. Because it's what allows you to say, do you want the answer to this question? Awesome. Great, we have the answer to that question, or I have the answer to that question. To pull from a phrase that market researchers use, it removes the neutral position. And I love that. Because if you're basically saying, Hey, do you want to know how to mitigate climate change? Do you want to know how to ensure the success of your student of your child like post graduation? Do you as a child want to know what it takes to be in or as a college attending person? Do you want to know what it takes to be successful in your life and career? Do you want to know? How is it that we can kind of restore beauty to the world? Maybe that's something that museum and art museum might say? But if somebody goes, Yes, well, you've just removed the neutral position from them.

Julia Campbell  22:40  
And then not everyone's gonna say yes, and it's okay.

Tamsen Webster  22:43  
That is the best gift that you can give to yourself and your audiences is to be able to ask that question, and sometimes get a no, because if they don't care about the outcome that you exist to provide, spend your time on the people who want that answer. Could you eventually get people to care? Yes, but we spend way too much time trying to get people to care about things they don't already care about. So that's the goal, right? Because if we've got that audience goal in mind, and again, ideally, it's one you share, because it should be a thing that your idea, and by idea, I'm gonna mean product, service, program, initiative, whatever it is, but your idea should answer that. So you should also care about that thing. But it needs to be their goal. Now in the audience, in the stories that we tell other people, there's always a problem that gets in the way, so that they didn't know about, right. So they know they want something, and sometimes that is to solve a problem. But in before they can solve that problem, or achieve that goal that they want. They have to actually solve another problem. First, right, there's something else that they have to do first. And so that is that second element is that's the problem. And again, it's not always presented as a problem to your audience. Because I, you know, with nonprofits, they're one of the groups that I you know, that I, that I recognize where some of the storytelling advice that's out there falls apart, because there isn't like a villain.

Julia Campbell  24:08  
You're right. Like, like poverty.

Tamsen Webster  24:12  
Yeah, exactly. Who's at fault there. And so really, when you're thinking about it in the terms of an idea, again, product, service, program, initiative, organization, whatever it is, the way I think about is, is the tension that must be resolved, before you can get the goal. And that's gonna vary organization, organization, individual to individual, but if you can identify, here's this tension that's got to be resolved. So let me use an example from Boston Conservatory. So, you know, if you're trying to talk with for instance, the parents and guardians of these rising seniors, rising freshmen that are coming in or potentially coming in, you know, they've got a big old question that's just like, What can I do to set my child up for success? And if your child is debating a performing arts college as they're saying, You They have more concerns than other parents might about. This is a hard life that they are about to choose for themselves. What can we do? So there are many schools that could answer that question. But as the Boston Conservatory, we need to decide what was the tension that we solved that allowed your parents or guardians to feel better about setting their student up for success. So we defined again, I'm doing this retro actively I didn't really think of it this way at the time. But retro actively I would say we resolve the tension between artistic ability and employability and say that they're not always the same thing, right? Like somebody can be enormous ly talented and can be incredibly difficult non functional in the world. And non functional in the in the workplace, whether that's an artistic workplace or not. And so that was the tension that we had to resolve. So it's not really a problem out in the world, right. But it's a problem that has to be resolved before we can satisfactorily achieve the goal. So with me so far, so that's the goal on the problem.

Julia Campbell  25:59  
Yes. And it's a problem the audience's may be thinking about, or maybe they, they don't know they're thinking about, but it's in the back of their mind.

Tamsen Webster  26:06  
It's in the back of their minds. And I do like the best kind of problem that you can articulate as one where either they are aware of the tension and just don't even think it can be resolved. And then you're like, Guess what, we've got a solution to that. Or they just don't even actually realize that there's a gap between these two things that they haven't even thought about like that. They just never even occurred to them that like, and this is one of those places, by the way, that nonprofits particularly that do the answer the same question, let's say, as other nonprofits can start to distinguish themselves a little bit, because you can say, you know, we frame the tension this way, like, and other folks frame it this way. And again, it's another opportunity for your audience to align with you. Because if you can get articulate a tension that makes sense to the audience, and it comes across as kind of urgent and important to resolve that tension. And you are continuing to say, yeah, and we've got a solution to that. Again, it's another place for your audience to align with you. And just really start getting invested in your in the solution. And that's, that's really what you want. So we've got a goal, we've got a problem. Now the truth now the truth, oh, this is my I have to tell you, I know you're supposed to like love all parts of your ID equally, but this is the favorite part. Yes. So because as you look at stories, we tell other people every story of change and transformation has what is known by various names, but for our purposes, let's call it a moment of truth. Aristotle referred to it as the anak Norris's, which is translates roughly to recognition. And it's it's a moment in that story where the main character recognizes the quote is the true nature of their circumstances, either the true nature of themselves or somebody that they're working with, or of the world and how it works or people and how they work. But there's that moment where they recognize the true nature of their circumstances. And it's in that moment, that the next piece that the ending of that or the course to the ending of that story is decided, because that moment of truth demands a choice. Like there's a moment where if, if, because that thing is true. Everything that has happened so far, like rests on a shift in thinking or behavior like it's, you know, the most famous one, you know, that most of us know about whether we've seen the movies or not is at the end of Empire Strikes Back, where Darth Vader says to Luke, this is not a spoiler, because if you don't know this already.

Julia Campbell  28:31  
That's true. I know. I hate when people like spoiler, it's

Tamsen Webster  28:35  
like, you know, this, or Darth Vader says to Luke, Luke, I am your father. And for anybody who doesn't know this, this is where like the person Luke is like our good guy. Darth is the villain. And this is the moment in the arc of these stories where all of a sudden, you realize that Luke has been trying to kill Darth Vader, Darth Vader's actually, the villain is actually his father. It's like, mind blown, like, it doesn't necessarily change the ending of that movie, because in that case, like the movie pretty much ends like right after that, but it does change the arc of the story. So that the third movie in that particular trilogy, instead of trying to kill Darth Vader, which has been the approach so far, where the arc of the story goes, next that Luke tries to bring the villain back of Darth Vader back over to the good side, so it shifts the approach, it changes the approach, right? So. So it's hard to talk about the truth and change separately because the change is what the shift is. And the truth is, the moment of truth is that is the piece of information that they receive right before the truth. So that translates back over to the ideas that we tell ourselves and the story that we're telling ourselves, or that's the, what I call the truth and the change.

Julia Campbell  29:46  
But the truth doesn't have to be something the audience doesn't know. Like, it doesn't have to be something mind blowing.

Tamsen Webster  29:52  
It's even better if it isn't. Yeah, so my favorite example in the sense of what we're talking about, it's the running example in my book is The DeBeers diamond tagline a diamond is forever. And you see that that isn't something where you don't know about it. Like, it's the reason why that tagline became so powerful for DeBeers is that because it was something that people already agreed was true.

Julia Campbell  30:15  
Oh, wow. And then they just reframed what a diamond means. They actually totally rebranded the whole industry

Tamsen Webster  30:23  
They reframe what a diamond means. And importantly, they created a mental gap between how people were thinking of rings as symbols of forever, like, like they created a before and after. But as soon as they said that a diamond is forever, they created a before and after. And what I mean by that is before the diamond is forever came out the primary single symbol of foreverness. Right, which so far, we have a goal question of what's the best symbol of our forever commitment to each other? The answer prior to a diamond forever was a ring, because it was a circle with no beginning and no end. It's a really good symbol of forever, by the way, right. And up until that point, they would put things like, you know, other symbols of forever on there, like you know, so very traditionally, there's, you know, they would have and forget me nots engraved on the ring and things like that, of course, that makes sense to so the tension, the problem, right, the tension that in this case, De Beers wanted to create so that they could then resolve it was a tension between thinking of, you know, the best symbol as a ring, versus a very specific kind of ring. And so as soon as they introduced a diamond is forever, which as you point out is something that people already agree with just they had never thought of it in this context, right? Now, all of a sudden, they're like, Well, if I want the best symbol, and my ring doesn't have a diamond on it, am I actually getting the best symbol again, we're not necessarily having this conversation out loud. But it's the thing that the brain is kind of resolving that tension on their own. And all of a sudden change was to see the stone as the symbol, not just the ring. 

Julia Campbell  31:58  
And all of this can happen in a 30-second Commercial, all of this can happen. And we're not even at change and actions yet. But all of this framework can happen in a print ad, like, it can all happen like in an instant. So I just want my audience to know like, we're not talking about you have to write a two hour keynote speech, this all can happen. And then once you see your message through this framework, like you kind of can't unsee it. So let's keep going. I love it. I'm getting like free coaching.

Tamsen Webster  32:26  
So well. And when I when you sent you mentioned the first sentence of my book, right when I said this book could have been one sentence that the best way to make your ideas irresistible. That's the goal, by the way, is to build a story people will tell themselves, which is the change, by the way, right is like that's how you can get your idea across the power of your organization across in a single sentence, you know, the easiest way to do it is to have gold plus change. And there's other ways but that's kind of the I like to refer to that for my tech clients as the minimum viable message, right, it has both your means and your ends, and ideally in a way that's both desired. So you know, the book is for people who actually want to make their ideas irresistible, and different meaning, I don't think anybody has said before that the best way to do that is to build a story that people will tell themselves, like, so I was like, Okay, great. But you notice that it's, it's a minimum viable message. It's not, however, a minimum viable argument. So you like you don't agree with that until I've made the rest of the case until I've filled in the problem, the truth.

Julia Campbell  33:37  
 But it piques my curiosity, it makes me want to learn mo  re.

Tamsen Webster  33:40  
Right, but you have to have that argument ready to go. But that can still be really quick.

Julia Campbell  33:44  
If I'm not interested in a book where I want to make my days irresistible, then why would I read the rest of the argument?

Tamsen Webster  33:50  
Right, exactly, exactly. And then so but even the argument can be expressed in 30 seconds or less. When you've got those pieces like, well, it's like, well, if you want to drive action from your ideas, most of the time, we focus on what we say more than what people need to hear. That's the problem. And yet how we see drives what we do you know, another way to say that every decision has a story that we tell ourselves, right? So that's why right? If you want to drive action from your ideas, you need to build a story, because every decision has a story that people would tell themselves, because it needs to be what they hear, not just what you want to say. So again, in 30 seconds, I can give you the complete argument, you may agree with it on principle, you're probably still gonna want the detail. That's why I wrote the book. But that's the whole point is that we can get the core ideas of it across and just those ways. So with that goal, problem truth, then we've got the change which is the shift in thinking or behavior that results. So that is in the stories, we tell ourselves that is kind of what are the like the high level. Okay, what am I going to do instead? So back to Star Wars the high level it's like instead of trying to kill Darth says Luke I'm going to try to bring him back over to the Jedi to you know, get back to the good side. So in to your question, what's the difference between the truth and the change? There's a couple ways to think about this. One is the truth is always descriptive. I'm just describing the way the world is a diamond is forever. I am your father is not telling you to do anything. It's a piece of information. So another way to think of the truth is, a lot of times, it's surfacing a silent assumption to borrow from psychology. So there's a site, there's an assumption about why things are the way that they are that you're bringing to the fore. And again, it should be something ideally, people agree with the changes. What do you do as a result of this new information? Given that you still want what you want the goal, and that the tension of the problem exists? What are you going to do now? Or what does your approach result in? So back to my Boston Conservatory example, want to set my childhood for success? Tension between artistic ability and employability truth, the best performers can can perform anywhere. So therefore, that's the true change what we did and do, I would say, probably so boss conservatory, I don't know, it's been a while since I worked at the core of our message at that point was that we replicate real life. That was the change that we represent. Because, quite honestly, we had really, really crappy facilities.

Julia Campbell  36:22  
I remember I went to BU in the 90s. So I remember Boston Conservatory. But now it's amazing.

Tamsen Webster  36:29  
Oh, now it's beautiful. And it's amazing. So it's great. And so, you know, that means we need to shift certain of these those messages. But, but basically, it was a way to explain we're like, Well, you know, even if we were just talking about the way that we it was great way to explain our crappy facilities, just like how is your child more likely to experience and have to practice in a beautiful sound proofed practice room, or in a New York apartment where they can hear like the opera singer next door, and all the all the traffic noise outside? Well, guess what, that's what our practice rooms are like. I mean, for real.

Julia Campbell  37:05  
This, I love that because it is real life. And you know what, if you're a musician, you probably are going to start off

Tamsen Webster  37:11  
In the pit of an orchestra not not not not first chair of the-

Julia Campbell  37:16  
If you're college student in general.

Tamsen Webster  37:18  
You're going to start as like the third chair pit orchestra of something like even if you are an amazing instrumentalist that wants to play like classical or instrumental music for a symphony, your gigging work is probably going to be in the pit of musical theater or something along those lines. So again, even now, they've got beautiful facilities, they can still replicate real life because they're giving you just in this case, their instrumentalists and opportunity to do the kinds of gigs that they're going to have, and kind of get over themselves way before they get out there. Now, contrast that with somebody who's just gone through a really pristine, like traditional conservatory experience, who is still probably going to have to play in the pit, right? And they're going to walk in without all that potential. Not all of them are going to have it attitude about like, I shouldn't have to be here. versus you know, the conservatory we're like replicate real life. That's the way to make sure that you're not only have incredible artistic ability, you have great employability as well. 

Julia Campbell  38:13  
And resiliency, and adaptability and resourcefulness. I love that 

Tamsen Webster  38:16  
All the things that we you would associate with success, employability, and all that kind of good stuff. That's the change is replicate real life do you see because it's prescriptive, it's what you need to do. But it's based on this grip, descriptive phrase, of a great performer can perform anywhere. So that's really the shift. And then the actions are just what do you do? And like, what what are the specific things that are you're you're doing to make that change concrete? So at replicate real life, we could talk, you know, the way that conservatory could still talk about is that we have these three divisions, they work kind of in a multidisciplinary way that you're if you're going to in one division, you get classes taught by the other, you know, you're gonna get, you know, all of these things are going to intertwine in certain ways. So it can be your programs, right, that you're listening, it could be like, how do we do that it can be more about curriculum, but it's the, you know, the action pieces, the concrete nature of what you do. So that's where the goal problem, truth change action, I'll come in and I have yet to find an idea that cannot be represented. Through those five. I mean, I, I try, I'm like that is an active part of my approach is trying to like disconfirm, what I believe to be true, I literally 1000s of ideas later, any idea can be put into this framework, because every idea has a story, right? Every idea is a story. It can be articulated that way because it was produced by a story. So all we're doing is reconstructing even if it's a dramatic reconstruction, but it's a reconstruction of a line of thinking that close the gap between a question and a particular answer. 

Julia Campbell  39:50  
I know that one of your most popular posts from the last year all of them, a lot of them have to do With stories and storytelling, that's something I know that my audience very interested in. So I read your posts, the problem was stories. I agreed with your assessment that there's a problem of storytelling. But what did you mean when you said that?

Tamsen Webster  40:13  
Ah, so the problem was stories. So I could sum that up in a statement where it would really be a very truth like statement, which is I believe that business storytelling, nonprofit storytelling has been hijacked by heroes. And so there's a lot to unpack there. But what that translates into is Alright, first of all, we talk about heroes, the hero's journey is a kind of story. It is a it is one of many it is a it is a very universal story, meaning many people like almost all cultures have versions of this. It's a story form that we recognize. And so it is a very useful one. However, it is not the only one. And because to be a true heroes, you know, and I and from from the perspective of business, people on nonprofit fundraisers, and marketers and leaders, the hero's journey gets pretty problematic pretty quick.

Julia Campbell  41:09  
Yeah, in the nonprofit world, I think it's very problematic often

Tamsen Webster  41:13  
It's very problematic right now. And particularly in the conversations around donor centric communication, as well as it served us in some ways for the last 2025 years it is now we're starting to realize how deeply problematic it can be, not only for the reasons that we even knew about 2025 years ago, which could cause mission creep, and all of that. But these just deep questions of when something is donor centric, are we in fact, some way reinforcing structures and systems that are that are actually creating the need for our nonprofit to exist in the first place? Like, what are we even doing here? Like, are we unintentionally, because corsets, unintentionally perpetuating and rewarding the very systems that are that are necessitating the creation of art and the existence for a nonprofit in the first place? So yeah, and why is that because there are certain rules that have to be true in order for Hero's Journey to apply. And one of them is there has to be a single Savior, the heroes saves the day, the hero solves the problem. 

Julia Campbell  42:15  
And the hero has no fault of their own. 

Tamsen Webster  42:18  
Well, the hero died, 

Julia Campbell  42:20  
Or maybe there's some faults, but 

Tamsen Webster  42:21  
yeah, and the hero, you know, in the whole idea is like the hero changes, you know, and as a result of the experience, but like, if you start to put these things up, you're like, Okay, well, first of all, again, most nonprofits are working towards something, whether that's to solve a problem or, you know, put some kind of beauty or purpose out into the world, that it would be hard to argue that that one nonprofit, has the solution. And even harder to argue that a single donor to that nonprofit, would be the solution either, right? Like, so it's like it breaks down like, full stop right there. Because there isn't a solution that solves the problem. And that, you know, something we already talked about before. There's not an obvious villain, right? There's not obviously something or someone that is actively working against it. And in certain cases, you can't, you don't want to bite the hand that feeds you like, because sometimes, like what would fall into that villain category is maybe the system that produced your wealthy donor in the first place. And so are so again, now we're into all sorts of problems. But the challenge, the one that was really speaking to in that that post, specifically in it, that the the article version of a talk I gave at the nonprofit storytelling conference, is that a lot of times the biggest problem, I think, in nonprofits was stories that we are telling stories that are over. We're using stories as examples without realizing we're using them as examples. And we haven't figured out what they are examples of. And we just stopped with saying, well, they're examples of our work, or Yeah, okay, but what do we actually mean by that? What is the kind of underlying principle that this story is, is actually articulating? And so what happens is, a lot of times, we don't even know what that is. So we don't articulate it, which means we can tell a story, we know what it means the audience walks away, having like maybe taking a completely different meaning out of that story. Or be just completely we don't actually even know, we don't know what we stand for, which is, you know, beyond what our mission says or beyond what and that like That way lies, absolutely lies, mission creep, and tears and lack of effectiveness in the marketplace. So I didn't talk about it from this lens in that particular article, but the idea that started to become clear to me as a possibility as a result of the nonprofit storytelling conferences. You know, I love where we're trying to go with Community Center fundraising. And yet at the same time, you hear the concerns of like, okay, well, if it's community center, fundraising, that's still not necessarily driven by the problem that we're trying to solve or the goal we're trying to achieve as an organization. And we'd still need donors don't need a you know, and yes, They can come from the community but but changing the structure of our organizations away from major gifts is not going to happen overnight, right? Like if it's ever going to happen. And so my thought was with this idea that there's kind of tension between individual stories that are over, which are a problem because of a sore is over. How do you engage with it? How can how can you take part of it, and this kind of larger story that that story represents. So think of it as you will, as a narrative is great way to think about it kind of as ongoing, kind of, I like to think of it almost like an everlasting story, like it's a story still in motion, it's a story that you're still building, that perhaps that kind of narrative centered fundraising, would be a really interesting potential solution to the tensions of both donor centered fundraising and community centered fundraising. Because the one thing that connects the organization, and the donor, and the community is a bigger story, not yet over that all three, believe in and are working to end and working to create a happy ending that isn't yet there. Right. So if we can get better at articulating those big ideas about what our organizations are about, that those everlasting stories, that kind of that big case, like that narrative that you're trying to drive forward, and you can get your organization behind that you can get that to be like, you can show donors how they can help move that forward without being the hero, so you get the organization behind it, so that they're doing that, you can still give the donor a role in it, right, because they can still be a protagonist, not necessarily the hero, you know, the protagonist moves the story forward, that's incredibly important role, right. And it's the community because the community also needs to be invested in that. And you know, that ongoing story, that everlasting story, and can also be the ones that benefit from it. And together, we can decide and build that story and what it should should sound like. And yeah, it's still has those five components that are true. And when you need it, those five components support a hero's journey. And when you don't, again, the power is it can build these big beautiful stories that don't yet have an ending, but could with the right backing of the organization, right, the right investment from your donors, and the right support from your community.

Julia Campbell  47:26  
We could talk all day about storytelling. And I definitely want to have you back on the podcast, you hinted that you're working on something new. So as we reach our time, I would love to hear about what you're working on and where people can reach you now, if they want to work with you.

Tamsen Webster  47:40  
Oh, yeah, so best? Let me answer the second question first. So best way to reach out is tamsenwebster.com. I am the only Tamsen Webster in the world spelled that way. And as you discovered by, thank you for being a subscriber to my newsletter, like that's where I noodle ideas first, so oftentimes, you'll get it, you'll get a peek at that. And probably no surprise to you, it's very much this problem was stories, and what are the kind of principles behind our ideas and this idea that you know, our pursuits or programs, for my for profit clients, our products are essentially our principles, they are kind of the manifestation of that. The new book is about that. Again, if I could say the sentence, if I were to start with my one sentence version of the book, it would be that the best way to create an invested audience is to make your idea part of a story they haven't heard before, but already believe.

Julia Campbell  48:31  
Thank you so much for sharing all of that incredible wisdom. And I'm still unpacking and I took a ton of info. So I really appreciate it. I encourage everyone to check out the show notes, get the book, just go to you know, Amazon or go to Thompson's website, tamsinwebster.com, check out the red thread, sign up for that email newsletter, you will definitely not regret it. And are you speaking at the nonprofit storytelling conference?

Tamsen Webster  48:59  
This coming year? I don't know yet. I need to I need to chat with my friend.

Julia Campbell  49:03  
the year when we're recording this. So I know a lot of a lot of my listeners do go to that conference, so

Tamsen Webster  49:08  
Yes, I know I'm going to be at one of the AFP conferences this year. I apologize. I'm not clear whether or not like it's that's the, you know, the big daddy central one, or if it's a regional one, but yeah, I am. I am hoping to be on many, many more nonprofit stages this year. Just because it's it is like I said, it's where my first love lies. And that's, that's where I would love to have as much of an impact as I can.

Julia Campbell  49:31  
Oh, wonderful. Well, we will look forward to seeing you, hopefully, on those stages and in the future. So yeah, definitely come back when your new book comes out.

Tamsen Webster  49:42  
My pleasure. Thanks so much, Julia.

Julia Campbell  49:50  
Well, hey there. I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show, and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show and your favorite podcast app, and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or review because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to. And then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode. But until then, you can find me on Instagram at Julia Campbell seven, seven. Keep changing the world. Nonprofit unicorn

Transcribed by https://otter.ai