Cause marketing involves partnering with a for-profit business to promote your cause and raise funds. This type of marketing can be a win-win for both parties, as the business benefits from increased brand awareness and positive PR, while your organization benefits from increased exposure and donations.
And as more consumers look to support companies that align with their values, cause marketing is becoming increasingly popular for nonprofits to raise funds and awareness.
In this episode, I sit down with cause marketing guru Joe Waters to talk about current trends in cause marketing partnerships, how to secure more meaningful and lucrative partnerships, and how to use artificial intelligence to create case studies.
About Joe Waters
Joe Waters helps nonprofits and businesses build win-win partnerships that raise money and change the world. He’s been writing his popular partnership blog, Selfish Giving, since 2005. He’s also written two books, one on cause marketing, the other on corporate partnerships. Avid gardener, posts photos in his newsletter or on Pinterest.com/joewaters
Connect with Joe on LinkedIn
Take my free masterclass: 3 Must-Have Elements of Social Media Content that Converts
Cause marketing involves partnering with a for-profit business to promote your cause and raise funds. This type of marketing can be a win-win for both parties, as the business benefits from increased brand awareness and positive PR, while your organization benefits from increased exposure and donations.
And as more consumers look to support companies that align with their values, cause marketing is becoming increasingly popular for nonprofits to raise funds and awareness.
In this episode, I sit down with cause marketing guru Joe Waters to talk about current trends in cause marketing partnerships, how to secure more meaningful and lucrative partnerships, and how to use artificial intelligence to create case studies.
About Joe Waters
Joe Waters helps nonprofits and businesses build win-win partnerships that raise money and change the world. He’s been writing his popular partnership blog, Selfish Giving, since 2005. He’s also written two books, one on cause marketing, the other on corporate partnerships. Avid gardener, posts photos in his newsletter or on Pinterest.com/joewaters
Connect with Joe on LinkedIn
Take my free masterclass: 3 Must-Have Elements of Social Media Content that Converts
This show is sponsored by Bloomerang, a solution that helps nonprofits like Shower up, which is a nonprofit providing mobile showers and personal care for those experiencing homelessness to efficiently manage their volunteers and donors in one place. And thanks to Bloomerang, Shower up increased their volunteer signups by 60% and first time donors by making it easy to give right on their site. Showerup's executive director, Paul Schmidt said Bloomering is an ideal marriage of volunteer and donor management. The deeper we get into it, the. More we love it. And if you want to see how showerup easily manages their volunteers and donors with Bloomerang, just go to jcsocialmarketing.com bloomerang. That's jcsocialmarketing.com. B l o o M E R A N G or visit the link in the show notes to learn more. All right, let's get to the show. Hello and welcome to Nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell, and I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the nonprofit nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently find your voice, definitively grow your audience, and effectively build your movement. If you're a nonprofit newbie or an experienced professional who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people, and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started. Hi everyone. Welcome back or welcome to Nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell. Thanks so much for being here today. Our topic is very meaty and interesting, and we're going to have a pretty interesting discussion all around boosting partnership efforts with AI, artificial intelligence, and case studies. So if you don't know what partnerships are, what cause marketing is, it's really a way for companies to align their values with organizations and issues that they care about. It's kind of a win win for both parties. And thankfully, I have the preeminent international expert on cause marketing with me today, Annie's from Boston, Joe Waters. Joe helps nonprofits and businesses build these win win partnerships that raise money and change the world. He's been writing his popular partnership blog, Selfish Giving, since 2005. Go to selfishgiving.com. It's sign up and it is a wealth of information. He's also written two books, one on cause marketing, the other on corporate partnerships. He's an avid gardener, posts photos in his newsletter or on slash Joe water. So Joe, thanks for coming. You know, Julia, I am only one of three men on Pinterest. One of three men. Not sure if that's true, but we can fact check that. I'm a huge pinterest fan. You just kind of reignited my interest in it. I haven't gone on it in a while. Are there a lot of gardeners on there? Yeah, a lot of gardeners. And you can get, I mean, Pinterest is all about inspiration and that's what I really use it for. I go on there if I'm looking for something for the garden or for the home or what have you, and I find all these great examples. But then I realized like, wow, this is a great place to curate. Cause marketing or corporate partnerships. Right by category. And just over time, I've curated over 4000 different corporate partnership programs by type. So if I said to you point of sale programs, and you're like, Joe, what's point of sale programs? Well, you can go and find a board on that. If I said action triggered donation programs, you could go and find a board on that. If I said cause products, you could go and find a board on that. So it just gives people some really helpful examples to say, oh, I know what Joe's talking about. I've gotten something like that. Or I've been asked at the register to donate a dollar or what have you. That's incredible. I have a Google Drive of examples and screenshots. I never thought about putting it on Pinterest in that way. And you've completely inspired me because now it's just an excuse to go on Pinterest for hours. I know, for hours. Exactly. That's the thing, is you go down the rabbit hole. I love that idea. Well, thank you. So that's great. And we're going to share a lot of examples today. So today we're talking corporate partnerships, cause marketing. I know in your world they're very similar, but for the uninitiated, what do nonprofits need to know? Is there a difference? Where should we start with both of these areas? Well, I think when we talk about in general, we can call it corporate giving. Right. And those are all the different ways that companies give back to organizations. Now, within that area though, Julia, there's something called corporate partnerships. And within corporate partnerships, I define two areas. There's sponsorship and there's cause marketing. The difference is sponsorship is money that generally comes from the company that supports your event. I want to sponsor your event. I'm writing you a check. I want exposure to your audience. Cause marketing is when the money comes from the company's consumer. So instead of marketing through you and your events, you're marketing through them and their employees to reach the consumer. And what I would argue, Julia, which is important for your audience to know, is cause marketing is the more lucrative form. So while most nonprofits do sponsorship, the truth is that the money is not in the corporate checkbook. It's in the consumer's checkbook. And the only way you can access that is through a company that gives you access to their customers. Wow. I never thought about it that way. It seems like sponsorship is kind of one off, but cause marketing is maybe more long lasting. It's long lasting, and it's greater exposure with an audience. You're getting a much bigger audience. And let's face it, too, companies just don't give a lot. I mean, over a generation, companies have gone all the way down to less than 1% of pretax earnings donating to nonprofits. So I always say companies like OPM, other people's money. So anytime they can tap into other people's money. But the truth is that when a company does a register program or a roundup program, or they send sell paper icons at the register, or they do an action or purchase trigger donation program, they're actually doing something that benefits the cause a lot more. Because the cause is going to get a lot more exposure and it's going to raise a lot more money. So some people see it as somewhat selfish that companies would tap into their consumers as opposed to donating. Well, the truth is, these days, companies tend to do both because consumers are getting smart to that. But the truth is that even if they could only do one, you would want them to access their consumers on your behalf because you're simply going to raise more money and get in front of more people. I'm thinking about the story I just read in your newsletter about the container store finally picking a nonprofit partner. It's the American Cancer association. It's the American Heart Association. American Heart association. First national nonprofit. Wow. And that's hugely significant, because if you think about it, all of the advertising, all of the stores, all of the checkouts, you're going to get that name, that brand of that nonprofit out in front of so many, right? That's right. And think about the reciprocal relationship, too. Because the reason they chose the American Heart association, as I said in my newsletter, is brands command right in the sense they want to choose a brand that is going to resonate for consumers. That's why in so many instances, Julia, it's challenging for small nonprofits in front of big companies because the name has to resonate with the consumer. You don't want the consumer know, what is this going to? What is this organization? Of course, there are ways around that, but that's why brands, a lot of times go with brands that have similar brand power. What can a small nonprofit do in this instance? Partner maybe with a smaller business? Well, one of the things that they could do is, I think the most important thing is that a small nonprofit can find its most passionate supporters. And what a lot of times that translates to, Julia, is when you tap into people that really want to support you, they are not so concerned about the brand association. So what they want to do is they want to educate people about what you're doing. Right. Because they care about so much what you're doing. I'll give you an example of this. When I was working at Boston Medical center, we had a great company we worked with called Ocean State job lots. I'm sure you heard of them. Yay. I love Ocean State job lots. New York probably don't know. Oh, you're missing out, everyone. Yeah. So Mark Perlman, the owner, was a very generous contributor of ours, and we went to him, he said, mark, you know, we want to increase our exposure. We want to raise more money with you, but you're giving us so much already. We'd really like to do something in your stores. So we did a program with him, and it's 100 stores. And over time, Julia, we started first by raising about $100,000. When I last spoke to them, we were raising $450,000 over three weeks in December for Boston Medical center. These programs. So what I always tell people when it comes to partnerships is they're not discovered. They're detected. They're already there somewhere in the organization. So the biggest thing that a small nonprofit can do is mine its contacts as much as they can and ask those important questions. Name, address, phone number, email address, and where do you work? Oh, wow. So make that connection in that way, figuring out where a lot of your donors might work or looking for a connection that could work, like a synergistic connection for your organization. That's right. Most small nonprofits shouldn't have partnership teams that are going out and soliciting corporate partners. It's a very challenging business to do that. But the important thing is, as a small nonprofit, is when you already have someone that could support you or you have someone calling you or emailing you saying, I want to support you, that, you know, the full suite of options that you can involve them in your organization instead of just saying, hey, how about a donation? I mean, that's great, but maybe that person owns a chain of convenience stores and they could be doing something in your stores and raising money. I talked to one just in the southwest of the United States. They did a donation box program in their 100 stores, and they raised $55,000. That's pretty good money. Right? But a lot of people don't know that as an option unless they're educated a bit about corporate partnerships and cost marketing. So I want to talk about trends before we get into some of the specific tactics. So I've been reading, actually, you linked to, I believe, was you linking to the Wall Street Journal article about tip fatigue. Yes. I think, I don't know. Maybe I'm speaking just for myself. Getting asked to tip literally everywhere you go is probably, and I might be bringing this up, impacting, like you said, point of sale donations or checkout giving. What are some other trends, or what are some things we should just understand and know about as we build our programs? Well, it's interesting about tipping. I think tipping has. I have no problem with tipping. I should say that I'm a good tipper. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I love when they turn the screen around, though, and it's like you just literally bought something at the register and they were asking for a 20% tip or something. And that's where I think the owners has to fall back on the business to pay their employees. But that's another issue. But I think what's great about tipping and what's happened since the pandemic is that it has taught so many people to add something to their bill, to their checkout, when they're leaving. So what we have is we have all these people now that are educated and have been asked to donate. And what we need to do is we need to turn those donations, maybe even just for a short period of time, away from employees, into nonprofit partners, especially as tip fatigue sets in. I think there's a great opportunity for us to cause this, to insert themselves and say, hey, this is something you can continue to do, and it can be good for you and a nonprofit. And the good news is you've already trained your consumers to do it. And I can guarantee you that consumers will be positive about giving to causes if you do the program appropriately. I think it's interesting. I think that nonprofits can do this, especially, I've seen where I live, like, stop and shop gives to schools. Yes. So they'll give to the school district. People understand that, but that's not a national organization. That's a small organization or the friends of the library or something like that, and people will understand that. I think it just lifts everyone up and creates a culture of philanthropy. So I don't know. Joe, did you read the generosity crisis? I don't know if I read that. By Nathan Chappelle, and I'm going to get all the authors wrong, but I will link to it in the show there. They posited the argument that all of this cause marketing is kind of letting donors off the hook so they think they can buy a Tesla and they're saving the environment, or they think they can buy a pink water bottle and they're solving breast cancer. So what do you think about that argument? First of all, I could see their point, but I think when we look at consumers and when we look at some of the research, we found that people distinguish between giving a dollar at the register and then giving money to a good cause. So people know how much they're giving. I mean, doing something at the register is very much of an impulse donation. Right. In a lot of instances, even though I think the cause is important, when people just ask you to round up, especially rounding up, which is actually probably the number one program right now. Julia, always less than a buck. Right. No one wants to change anymore. Right. It's easy to say yes to something like that. But I do think that there is that type of fatigue that sets in with these types of programs sometimes, too. I did want to just say, I just looked it up. The authors, Michael Ashley, Brian Crimmons, and Nathan Schpell. So the generosity crisis, I thought it was really interesting, and I agree with you. I also think a rising tide lifts all ships, and I really believe the more we can normalize giving and insert it into consumerism and things we're already doing even better. It might have been your newsletter that told me about the Alexa. Thank my driver. You could just say to Alexa, and all of your Alexas are going off, and I apologize. Thank my driver. Who knows if this really happened? I think it needs to be researched. But allegedly, it would give your driver a $5 tip. Not from you, from Amazon. Right. So I thought, oh, my gosh, how can we make giving just like that? Because it was so easy to do and it was so amazing. So I thought that was a perfect potential for cause marketing. So, Jeff Bezos, if you're listening. Okay, so you talk a lot about case studies and the power of case studies to help you grow a partnership program, and I know you work on a lot of case studies with your clients. How do you get these case studies? Like, where do you get them? How do you write them? What makes a great case study? Yeah. Well, you know, the thing is, first of all, let's say something that most of us know up front. Case studies are omnipresent in the business world. Okay? Every other type of business uses case studies, especially the B two B sector, too. People use testimonial and case studies interchangeably. They are different. Testimonial is when someone says something nice about your company. Case study is actually telling the story of the relationship. Right. So it's more detailed, and it does include testimonials, but they are different. But I think when we talk about case studies in the nonprofit space, we don't use them enough. And it's not just partnerships. Julia. Case studies are impact statements. Right. So those can be used for individual donors. I actually wrote a bunch of case studies on plan giving for an organization that wanted to attract more people to plan giving. And the best thing about case studies is you're letting someone else do the work for you because it's a form of social proof, right? Yes. It's not you saying that you're a wonderful organization and the money is going to a great place. It's someone else saying that. Right. So in the partnership space, this is really critical, because you're out talking to companies with programs, and in some instances, you've worked with many similar companies before. You want to be able to articulate what exactly you did for that company. And more importantly, something I'm very committed to in my case studies, Julia is writing about how the partner, how the business benefited from working with. Yeah. And that's so important, too. And I think that should be part of any case study. What you're writing about, what did the other person get out of it? Because you can articulate what you got out of it as a nonprofit, but you can't always articulate what they got out of it. And so that's one of the things I think is so powerful with a case study. And a lot of times, too, people think of case studies. Oh, these are something that sit on my site, and people can click on them and they can read them. I actually don't suggest that people really use case studies that way. I actually think you should use testimonials that way. I think we should save case studies for when we're actually in front of people or on a Zoom call with them and talking to them so that we can explain and go through the case study in detail so that they can understand the case studies relationship to them. Absolutely. No, that's so important. I really love the difference between testimonials and case studies. So testimonial is just, like, a great quote. Like, I love this organization. I've donated to them for 25 years. A case study is, I worked in partnership with this nonprofit. Here's what we did. That's right. Here are the results, and here's how I felt. And maybe another thing, too, is problem solution, solution best, right. In the sense, like, you talk about the challenge, you talk about the problem, you talk about the solution and how the partnership helped you achieve that, and then why that solution was the best solution compared to all the other things that you were considering. So it's a good structure for your case studies. I include some other things, like actually tell the backstory of the partnership, because that can obviously be very revealing in terms of how people got involved. And, you know, that can tell a lot about a partnership. How would you approach someone, and how would you know? What's a good case study to tell? Well, I always suggest to people, I was actually just talking to a client about this yesterday, Julia, that you want to do case studies on the things you want more of. Right. So if you have something with your organization, but it was kind of unique, or you just don't think you could replicate it, well, maybe you don't want to do a case study on it. But if you have a partnership with Ocean State job lots, and you had a very successful partnership and you want to go to more retailers about point of sale programs. Well, write up the case study right now. The big thing about the case study is when you go to the partner, it's easy for you to explain why it's good for you. But you also have to be able to say, this is why it's good for you, the partner, because it puts on paper what the success of that partnership was. And what's powerful about that is it makes it very concrete for the partner, the benefit for something like. Like, you know what mean? Like, holy Moses. Like, this was something that we got a lot of. And you know what's good about it, too, Julia? They can take it to their boss, and their boss can take it to their boss so that they can see the benefit of something like that. And it might be one of those things that they even want to go to another nonprofit partner. And nonprofits are eager to work for companies, but we all know of nonprofits who can choose the different partners they work with. That case study could give you a competitive edge in getting and working with the nonprofit partner that you want to do. So when I go in, I always try to emphasize, yes, this is good for me, that I have this case study, but it's also good for you. I'm thinking these could work for sponsorship as well. I have not seen this in the nonprofit space where they solicit event sponsors by actually talking about what last year's event sponsors benefited and got out of it. Think about how powerful that is. I know you can articulate. Like, know Peter Drucker has a famous quote, marketing makes sales unnecessary. Right? That's what case studies do, is case studies make fundraising unnecessary, right. Because they are doing the work for you. And that's one of the things I think is so valuable, important. But when you go out there and look around, people don't have them, and it just amazes me. So I'm trying. During the course of the time, the couple of years that I've been writing them, I've written already over 100 case studies for organizations, and they have been universally helpful to people in securing new partnerships. I love marketing and partnerships. Marketing and partnerships. What I most love about that is that I don't have the Boston accent. And people are very disappointed when I don't have know. Julia, I do give lessons. I will not only give you a Boston accent, but we can talk about Boston. Words like bubbler, bubbler, bubbler, banga, yui. You know what I mean? Things like, you know, if you feel like your kids are lacking in that department because of your influence, I'd be more than happy to teach a clicker. Clicker. A blinker. A blinker. Use your blinker. Yeah. No one's going to know we're talking about. No, I love that. No, my kids. I know. I think they're just very know, Julia. My kids don't have it either. They laugh at me. That's so funny. I love just. It's so. Just. It makes me feel like home. So let's talk about generative AI, artificial intelligence. You recently wrote a newsletter giving an example of how you use Chachi Pt specifically, and how nonprofits can use it to boost their partnership program, or at least maybe their content creation. Can you talk about the way that you used it and maybe some ways nonprofits can use it? Yeah. Well, I think what's important, too, is I've been using it for just about everything. I think when you fall into the. Rabbit hole of yeah, I used it to meal plan the other day. I used it to plan my vacation. I'm like, in my garden, give me ten plants that work in sun and shade and also can handle moist soils. You know what I mean? It is pretty amazing. What's those? So the biggest thing I'd love people to come away from this conversation is to say, hey, I'm going to start experimenting with AI and use your chosen platforms. I use two. I use chat GPT. I actually just signed up for the paid version, which I certainly found have been worthwhile. And I also use something called perplexity, which I highly suggest to people it's a Google alternative because I was using bard. Yeah, it's called perplexity. It's called perplexity. And definitely give it a try, though. But what I like about perplexity and these other things besides Google is Google gives you search results, right? Then you have to go search results. You have to sift through them. That's right. Perplexity gives you answers. BoD probably gives you answers, too. So that's what I like about it, is it gives me specific answers to questions that I have, but it also gives me the links back so that if I want to go back and look at these articles, I can do, you know, that is something that's just been really helpful. And so what I would argue is, though, even though I'm using chat GPT for case studies, I think more nonprofits should use them for writing in general. I'll give you a quick example, Julia. Love this one. So one of my clients is the friends of Minuteman National park in Concord, right where the battles of Concord and Lexington happened. And the executive director there, Kathleen, called me and said, you know, joe, I have a speaking series coming up, and we're going to be talking about alcohol in the American Revolution and liquor and its influence on the american revolution. And she said, I'm trying to think of a snappy title. What do you have? And I said, you know what, let's ask chap GPT. So I went into chat GPT. I gave the parameters of what the talk would look like, and I said to chap GPT, please give me some clever examples and titles of something like this. And I'll tell you, Julia, I was just kind of blown away by some of the things that came up with one of them. One of my favorites was Red cups are coming. The influence of booze on the american revolution. The Red cups. The red cups are coming. And then the other one they had was red, white and brew the role of alcohol in the American Revolution. Whoa, that's pretty good. That sounds like a book. Yeah, it came up with some clever stuff. So I always say to people, look, we're all writing blog posts. We're writing headers for different things for newsletters and stuff like that. Try saying, like, hey, this is the article I'm writing. Or take the article, copy it, put it into chatpig, and ask them to give you several examples. And you can put parameters on that, too. Include a colon somewhere in that title. Don't use this word or use this word in the title. So there's all these different things that you can do. And what I've been able to do, Julia, is apply this to a lot of my case studies, because I record my case studies just like we're recording each other now. But then I put that recording into Otter AI. Yes. I love otter transcription service. Right? I get a transcript of it, and then I put it into chat GPT. Now, smart people may be even able to take that recording and put it right into chat GPT. But I actually take that extra step and go to audit because I need a transcript anyways. And then using certain parameters, I'll say, give me the backstory of this partnership between this nonprofit and this company from the information that I attached, but also include any additional information you may find online. What it's saying is, take this information that I just gave you. But as you're searching for backstory information on this partnership, include that in the case study. I have been amazed at some of the results that I've gotten. Right. The only thing that I haven't liked about chat GPT is it's not a great writer, but it does give you a very serviceable draft that you can. Good researcher. That's right. So for me, it really has been a game changer in that way. Yeah, I think it's like an intern that you don't have. So that's how I feel about it. I would type in, I'm just thinking, if I was a development director right now, what are ten corporate partnerships that you think would match our nonprofit? And then you can put your mission in. That's right. And it's not perfect, but it could maybe give you some ideas or some leads. What are the five biggest industries in my city? And give me ten companies in each category. Yes. Well, that's even better one. So the prompts are key. Yeah, that's right. The prompts are key. And see, that's the thing, too, is if you just get on chat, GPT or BoD or perplexity, and you just start using it, you'd be amazed how much better your prompts get. And you know what I find? The more I learned about prompts, too, the more I find it's just like talking to a person. It is talking to a researcher, as a matter of fact, you know, I saw the other day, Julia, that chap, GPT, actually gives you better responses if you compliment it. I heard that, too. Right? I always say please and thank you. I know. Well, I mean, it's just basic goodness, right? Yeah, but you say, great job. That was wicked pissa. Give me another wicked pissa. Right? Yeah. My friend Josh Hirsch, who teaches a lot about AI and nonprofits, he said, and he wrote a post about this, that if you tell it to take a breath, if you say, okay, take a breath, think about, is this truly the best response you can give me? It's amazing. I'm like, oh, my gosh, we are talking to it like a person. Yeah, that's right. That was a good example. But could you give me a better one isn't so long and maybe written in a more conversational tone. Absolutely. So it is amazing. So what I really encourage people to do is to get on there with all their writing depending on what they're doing, but particularly case studies, because case studies obviously broken down into specific sections, depending on how you do them. And a lot of those can be fed into chat GPT, and you can get a good, serviceable draft out of it. That will save time, because that's what I see so valuable, Julia, about AI, is that a lot of nonprofits just don't have the staff and resources. And now we have this resource. And sometimes I say to nonprofits, and they're like, well, it's a paid version. I said, it's $20 a month. That's not too bad. Was that $240 a year? I mean, think about what you spend $240 in your nonprofit, and having an. Intern would be more, even having an unpaid intern, in terms of training and time, and all of that would certainly be more. But I agree, I think just start experimenting. So speaking of examples, what are some great cause marketing examples you've seen in the past year, in the past few years? Because I know you share a lot. In your, you know, and I'm always looking, well, I'll tell you, my favorite campaigns, Julia, are generally the point of sale programs. And when I say point of sale, that's usually anything that happens at the register that includes donation boxes, paper icon programs, which many people are familiar with because they used to buy a shamrock, the benefit Muscular Dystrophy association register programs, roundup programs and stuff like that. One of the programs I wrote about recently for the USO, a case study client, as I talked about giant supermarkets and their partnership with the USO. And many of us here in the Northeast don't know giant because they're admitted atlantic supermarket chain. But they have done an incredible job raising money for the USO. Keeping in mind, Julia, the USO and veterans is a very important audience for them because a lot of those people are stationed in the states. So they want those people as customers, right. But they also want to thank those people for their service. So what they did, and I love this two pronged approach, is in addition to asking people at the register to round up, they also sold a coupon book for $5. So they gave people a couple of different ways to participate in this program. And coupons can be a very effective way of doing point of sale programs. I used to do them myself in terms of offering those types of programs, but they've raised over a million dollars a year, which is that one program. And we're not talking about 1000 stores here, we're talking about maybe 150 stores. So it's not a huge footprint. But supermarkets are very well suited for cause marketing because they have lots of foot traffic. Lots of foot traffic and lots of transactions. Yes. I just love this topic because it goes with my theme of 2024. My word is intention. And it's playing the long game and it's being very strategic and it's thinking forward. And it's not just simply reacting to everything kind of flying at you. It's very much playing this longer term plan. So I appreciate you so much. Okay, what are you thinking about? What is your number one thing that you think is going to be amazing in fundraising in 2024? I think what's going to be amazing, and I think it depends on where you are, is companies are having a moment when it comes to supporting a lot of causes that maybe they weren't ready to support and maybe a little bit more controversial. And I actually think there is going to be a pullback from a lot of those causes and there will be an opportunity that will swing back to more traditional causes to work with these types of companies. So these companies have kind of left. I mean, they still do them, obviously, but the health care space, the animal space, I think what companies are looking forward to in 2024 is less controversy and the way they're going to do that is going back to strong brands, traditional causes, the types of causes that make people feel good. And there's going to be a loss, Julia, for those causes that are a little bit more controversial and a little bit more challenging. But as they say, death is bad for the person, but good for the grave digger. Right? In the sense like someone benefits from something like this. So I do think there is going to be kind of a swing back to more traditional causes and groups in 2024, and there'll be a lot more opportunity for those types of causes out there. Well, thank you. So where can people find out about you and more about your newsletter? How to work with you, Joe? Yeah, well, people can go to selfishgiving.com. Obviously they can find my newsletter there. Definitely sign. You know, you can also still find me on the Twitter. There are a lot of us. You're still on. Well, it's not called. I know, I know. You can't even say tweet. Don't you say post? Yeah, I don't know. I heard Elon Musk in an interview, and he was very mad when someone said tweet. So maybe we shouldn't say, right? Absolutely. So, yeah. But the best way to stay in touch with me is through my newsletter. And one of the things I tell people, Julia, and you know this, too, look, if you have an interest in what I'm talking about, corporate partnerships, specifically around sponsorship and cause marketing, get my newsletter because it's all about that. And then you can get a real feel for like, oh, I know what Joe's talking about. And yes, I want to do that for my organization. Or you know what, Joe? That sounds good, but I'm focused on all these other areas over here. But the only way you know that is by checking out the newsletter for a few weeks. Yeah, I have to say, I always bookmark it and I'm always clicking on all the links. It's where I get a lot of my news stories that I save for later to read for later. But it's got a great finger on the pulse of the sector and charitable giving in general. So thank you for all your generous work around that. Hopefully we'll get to see each other soon in person in Boston. Yeah, I hope to see you. Sounds good, Julia. And thanks for your time today. It's nice being here. Well, hey there. I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app, and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or review, because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to, and then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode, but until then, you can find me on Instagram at Julia Campbell, 77. Keep changing the world, you nonprofit unicorn.