Finding New Donors by Using Intention with Matt Nash

In the philanthropic landscape, the influence of corporate matching programs cannot be overstated. With approximately 81% of Americans making charitable donations and 26 million individuals employed by companies offering match programs, there is significant potential for fundraisers to tap into this resource.

Want to reach younger donors? The average age of an American employee is 38, and 70% say they want to work for a company that has purpose.

These potential donors not only represent strength in numbers but also possess the ability to nearly double their contributions through company match programs.

Establishing relationships with local companies becomes crucial for fundraisers, as it opens avenues for ongoing support, volunteer engagement, and a wider network of community backers. The key lies in fostering meaningful connections with these donors, encouraging continuous support aligned with their passions, and increasing their involvement with the nonprofit.

This podcast episode aims to explore five essential engagement tactics for nonprofits looking to build lasting relationships with current and potential donors who have access to corporate match programs.

My guest is Matt Nash. Based in North Carolina, Matt Nash previously served as the senior vice president of marketing and donor experience for Fidelity Charitable. He’s now executive director of The Blackbaud Giving Fund, the charitable arm of Blackbaud, the cloud computing provider that serves nonprofits, foundations, schools and other social change organizations. The Blackbaud Giving Fund has safely disbursed over $1.6 billion from generous donors to over 195,000 nonprofits around the globe and offers resources to nonprofits to support their fundraising goals.

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Transcript

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This show is sponsored by Bloomerang, a solution that helps nonprofits like Shower up, which is a nonprofit providing mobile showers and personal care for those experiencing homelessness to efficiently manage their volunteers and donors in one place. And thanks to Bloomerang, Showerup increased their volunteer signups by 60% and first time donors by making it easy to give right on their site. Showerups executive director Paul Schmidt said Bloomerang is an ideal marriage of volunteer and donor management. The deeper we get into it, the more we love it. And if you want to see how Showerup easily manages their volunteers and donors with Bloomerang, just go to jcsocialmarketing.com bloomerang. That's jcsocialmarketing.com b l o o M e r a n g or visit the link in the show notes to learn more. All right, let's get to the show. Hello and welcome to nonprofit Nation. I'm your host, Julia Campbell, and I'm going to sit down with nonprofit industry experts, fundraisers, marketers and everyone in between to get real and discuss what it takes to build that movement that you've been dreaming of. I created the nonprofit nation podcast to share practical wisdom and strategies to help you confidently find your voice, definitively grow your audience, and effectively build your movement. If you're a nonprofit newbie or an experienced professional who's looking to get more visibility, reach more people, and create even more impact, then you're in the right place. Let's get started. Hello. Hi everyone. Welcome back. Or welcome to Nonprofit Nation. So excited to have you here today on the podcast. And the question we are discussing, we're answering, we're unpacking, how can we build deeper relationships with our corporate partners? And how can we expand our corporate partnership program? How can we cultivate them? How can we attract them? How can we just really engage them in what we're doing to create even more impact? And my guest today is Matt Nash, based in North Carolina. Matt previously served as the senior vice president of marketing and donor experience for fidelity charitable. He's now executive director of the Blackbaud Giving Fund, the charitable arm of Blackbaud, which is the cloud computing provider that serves nonprofits, foundations, schools and other social change organizations. And the Blackbaud Giving fund has safely dispersed over $1.6 billion from generous donors to over 195,000 nonprofits around the globe and offers resources to nonprofits to support their fundraising goals. That is just absolutely incredible. So, Matt, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. It's my pleasure to be here. Yes. So we were talking about your hobby of woodworking. But my guests, they probably love to hear about that. But I would love to hear about your nonprofit journey, how you got into the sector and how you got involved with Blackbaud. So all careers have all kinds of moving parts and changes to them. Mine was in financial services for 25 years, much of that at fidelity investments. And toward the end of the time that I was with Fidelity, I joined the senior team of the big philanthropic group that they have called Fidelity charitable, which is the largest donor advised fund. And that's why you lived in Boston for so long. You said I lived in Boston. Exactly. I didn't get the connection. Fidelity's in Boston. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So when I left Fidelity, I was involved with a large philanthropic project that I actually am still involved with, where we were looking to try to understand why the number of people in America are giving has been going down for the last generation and what we can do to turn that around. And as part of that, I met some folks from Blackbaud, and they were going to be opening up this donor advise fund that they had actually outsourced that activity before, and they wanted to bring it in house. And so I joined them to start the Blackbaud giving fund back in August of 2020. You named some of the statistics that we've done since. So it's tied to Blackbaud's product that does workplace giving, offers it to corporations all across the United States. And the biggest part of what we do is to take the funds in from those workplace giving programs and move them to the charities of the choice of where the employees want to send them, from financial services to the donor advice fund sponsored fidelity going way off on the philanthropic project itself to understand more about how this whole ecosystem works and what we can do to change it. And then coming back to operating a group again, that feels good to me, to be able to do the kind of good that we do every day. I love that. So we should definitely talk about fundraising statistics and sort of the outlook for this year. But one statistic that I found that's related to our topic today, two thirds of Americans say they donate money to charitable causes, and 26 million people work for companies that offer company match programs to employees. So in your opinion, how do the statistics around charitable donations a role in shaping the landscape for fundraisers? And what role do you see company match programs playing? Yeah. So we've all seen the statistics, and particularly in this project that I worked on, it's not recent. I mean, the decline in donors has been going on for literally a generation, since before 2000. And that's not stopping. The numbers keep showing that the number of people in America that give declines every year, and I think it declined again in 2022 when giving us a producer report. But I think some of it's been hidden because the wealthy donors have kind of made up for that. So if you just look at the funds flowing through, and you only looked at how much money was coming into the nonprofit sector from individuals up until 2023, it was growing every year. And mainly that was because the wealthy were making up for what was going on underneath with the average donor people, just average citizen not being as active as they were in the past. So I think we're kind of at a crossroads here, because 2023, at least if it wasn't a blip, was the first time that the wealthy didn't overcome the volume of people giving on a smaller way. And it creates a challenge, I think, for all of us to say, well, how do we, how do we do this? And at the same time, we're up to over 1.4 million charities in America that are registered with the I. If you go back 20 years, that was less than a million. So there's more and more and more charities that are looking to do good in the world and fewer donors. And what I come down to is, as I've looked at this is, to me, a lot of giving is reactionary. Your friend is doing a run. They send you a note and say, hey, would you sponsor my run for me? And you do that. I think what we need is more intentional giving, where somebody is picking out a cause that's important to them. They're finding a charity that, or multiple charities that do those things and create the kind of outcomes that society needs. And they become more invested, they become more engaged. I don't call it strategic, I call it intentional. They think about it. It's something that they proactively do. And I think there's some sources of giving that naturally lend themselves to intentional giving. One is a lot of nonprofits go to sustainers. They try to build more sustainers. Well, what is a sustainer? A sustainer is somebody who's intentional about giving to that particular charity. Yes, they do it every month. That's got to be intentional. It's important to them. Donor advise funds are another situation, because they put the money into this account to get it to be charitable funds, and then they take a second step and decide where they want to give it. I always talk about use of donor advised funds is there's two decisions the donor makes. One is the head decision, getting the tax deduction and figuring out what funds you're going to put away for a given. And then there's the heart decision, which is which now, which causes are important to me, which charities are important to me. And then when they use the fund to do that, they're basically exhibiting this, what I call intentional behavior. And then the third one that we've seen as I've gotten involved with the workplace giving is from the workplace. And the idea there is that there's two reasons why a company would want to get involved with this. One is they're trying to get employees that are more engaged so they can have employees be retained. That's just a key component. And that's generational as well. That's generational, absolutely. Because 70% of employees say they would like to work for a company that has purpose. And so if you match that 70% of the workers that are looking for some sense of purpose, the idea of having a workplace giving program matches that pretty well, because now the company can support people's causes more broadly, but also target things that represent what the company thinks itself thinks is important. Which is the second reason why somebody does workplace giving is more. It's more brand loyalty, it's more brand awareness. It's their stake in the communities that they operate in, because they're trying to demonstrate that they provide good or purpose to a broader sense than just what might happen to be the product that they're selling. So an employee that's joining the workplace giving, often, number one, they're younger than the average donor that most nonprofits have, because they're like, the average age of american employee today is 38. I didn't know that. I'm taking a lot of notes. Okay. Average age of the american employee is 38. Okay, 38. Right. And I know that with most nonprofits out there, looked at their database and said, well, how old is my average donor? 50 or north of that. And so there's a good opportunity here. There's 30 million people that are involved in these programs. Maybe you said 26. Yeah. There's no definitive number, but they're in somewhere in that area that are participating in these programs. They're younger. Many of them are doing something intentional about giving for the first time. Up until this, they've been reacting, and now they're in the workplace, and they get involved with the give back week, and there's programs that they can jump into, volunteer projects that they can work on with their coworkers, and they're getting involved. They're doing it collaboratively with their coworkers, so they're getting some social aspect back from it, which is important since we've had COVID and we've all been working holed up in our offices. But then they're also learning about these nonprofits and learning how sophisticated they are and what great work that they do, and they're beginning to get engaged. And so from my perspective, the workplace giving is that third point of finding more intentional givers, and the benefit of finding younger givers who have the means to give and can grow into your mid and major gift donors as time goes on. So interesting and so important to understand, because in my line of work, where I work with organizations on digital fundraising and social media, they're always saying to me, where can we find younger donors? Where can we find younger donors? And this seems to me to be like an untapped pool of people that you just said, 70% want to work for a company that has purpose. People want to be more intentional, and they want to be less reactionary. And I completely agree with that. And also, it's very generational. I think nonprofits tend to treat all of their pools of donors the same. So they would treat their silent generation, baby boomer donors the same as they would their younger millennials or their Gen Z donors. And it seems clear that we need to have a different approach. Another point I wanted to make, because it is a point I always make, is you talked about the heart giving and the head giving. And I always reference Aristotle, which might seem very literally antiquated, but Aristotle talks about ethos, pathos, and logos as the only way to influence someone. And it's exactly what you're talking about. You need credibility, you need logic, and you need heart. Like, you need that emotion. So I think I completely agree with you that donors, there are a lot of donors that are looking not just for that reactionary heart feeling. They're also looking for that sort of logical conclusion to give as well. Yeah, they want whatever resources they have, whether it be talent or money, they want it to be able to create an outcome, to create an impact, make good. To me, that's the purpose side of what they're doing. They want the world to be a better place. They want their efforts to do it to show up as being, hey, I'm making a difference here. Okay. So we kind of talked about the why. Definitely, we gave nonprofits some food for thought around why this is important. But could you outline, I mean, don't to give us too much detail. I don't want to put you on the spot that you have to memorize all of this, but can you outline you talk about the five and key engagement tactics that nonprofits can employ to build and nurture relationships with donors who have access to corporate match programs? So can you talk maybe about some of the key engagement tactics? Sure. Yeah. Let me just sort of summarize them, and we can dive into any details that we go forward. I think there's just some, what I call key engagement tactics. Yes. The first one is, if you're a nonprofit, is to make sure that your cause is aligned with what the corporate social mission is that builds connectivity and builds purpose between the corporation and you. It would also open their eyes to who you are because they would recognize that you're in line with what is important to them. So that's 1 second is because they're looking for employee engagement. Creating great volunteer opportunities here is key. And I know volunteering is not an easy thing for nonprofits to manage because it's very complicated. But the more that you have very interesting volunteer opportunities for these employees to participate in, the greater chance you're going to have for getting that engagement with both at the corporation and engagement with you. Third is to partner with the company and learn together, and we can talk a little bit more about how to start with the companies. But what I've seen in corporate partnerships that we're involved with is that corporations get their employees involved with helping manage it, because at the very top of these corporate social responsibility organizations, there's very few people. So they have to leverage the employees to get going. As you work with these nonprofits and have your give back week or even an ongoing thing throughout the year, you don't get it right the first time. But if the nonprofit can work together with the company, they each get better at this, and it creates more engagement and more volunteer hours and more money will flow. The fourth is to communicate your cause and impact. And we just kind of talked about that, right. Employees are interested in the purpose and the impact. It's really important for the nonprofit to be able to articulate what that is and make it visible to those employees. And it could be as simple as make sure your candid profile is up to date, because many of these programs will import data from aggregators like Candid to show the employees what options that they've got. And maybe LinkedIn. Yeah, yeah, LinkedIn. It's candid. It's charity navigator. It's on your social media, help people understand who you are and what you're about on your website, same thing. Make sure it's all up to date. A consistent theme, and up to date throughout. Throughout. Then once you're communicating, the fifth would be steward the relationships. Recognize the employees that joined your cause, and they show up in your databases. If they don't show up in your databases, they show up in the databases of these organizations, like the Blackbaud Giving Fund, that are the ones that send the funds to the charity. We all have platforms that inform the nonprofit, what company was involved and which employees were involved, and the contact information of the employees. So it's your chance to, once you discover them, is to begin thanking them, understanding more about them, inviting them back in. All the stuff that nonprofits know how to do really well, but know that we're the sources, know that they came through this workplace program. So I think my next question would be sort of where to start. So how do we find these companies that are aligned with our mission? Yeah, that's a really good question. So, like, let's say here in Chapel Hill, North Carolina, where I am, there's a triangle of three cities, Raleigh Durham and Chapel Hill. And right in the middle of it, there's this thing called the research Triangle park. There's literally hundreds of companies, most of them high tech companies, that are working there. They may not have their headquarters there, but they got big operations. And so if I were a charity in this area, the first thing I would do is start looking at what these companies do and get a sense of, are there things that would likely line up with me? And then you can go in under their annual reports, they all talk about their social mission. It's particularly in the last couple of years, from, let's say, 2021 through 2023, almost every annual report has a component in there about what their social mission is. And you can see what they're all about and what they're trying to accomplish. And that gives you a sense of, okay, am I lined up with that approach? Would there be a connection there? A lot of them even produce, literally, a corporate social responsibility report that they'll publish. And you can read in depth all the things, all the things that they do. So I think, to me, that's a starting point. And then to look at your own donors and say, do I have any donors that work for those companies and go through those donors? Or you could literally contact the firm and say, who's managing the corporate social responsibility programs in your firm? And there's usually a department, might be a small department, but they'll, you know, you'll get the email and you can, you can say, here's what we do. Here's what we're thinking about, and introduce yourself. So they're, they're more aware of who you are. They are all searching for voluntary opportunities because. And they can't, you know, create them themselves because it's like three people that might be handling volunteer activities for a company of 100,000. I mean, it's literally that kind of scale that we're talking about. And so the more that they can understand what programs can be offered to their employees and which ones match, I think that's a really good place to start because they're dying for great ideas because they want to get their people engaged. I have an example. When I was a development director, I worked at a domestic violence shelter, pretty small, you know, under 5 million budget, in Norfolk, Virginia. And we were looking for grants, and we actually found that target. I'm not sure if this is true now. That was a while ago, but they supported programs around domestic violence prevention, outreach and support. And we actually really built a great relationship with the local target. But as part of that, they wanted more than just, you know, providing a check. They really did want some kind of volunteer opportunity, whether it was painting or whether it was providing supplies for a birthday party or obviously, they could not necessarily come and work, like inside the shelter unless they went through our training and our orientation, but they were willing to schlep furniture around or take in kind donations and bring them back and forth. So having that, like, thinking through what can these employees do that's going to connect them to the mission? This is not about exploiting clients. I think a lot of my listeners might have that misconception. We're not going to parade around our clients to these corporate employees, but it is more thinking strategically and intentionally about what are some of the things that they could do or help out with or participate in that are going to be a good fit for both the company but also both the nonprofit. And that's the key. And when we talk with our clients about what real success looks like, they always say it's an engagement that improves my employees life, gives them some skills, gives them an opportunity to enjoy what they're doing. There's all kinds of things about that that say, that improve and also help the nonprofit with something that they needed to do. And if you can combine those two, then you've got the right kind of volunteer activity. Yes. So to review the engagement tactics, we have, number one, make sure that it's aligned. Your mission and vision and values are aligned with the corporate social mission, where let's not just say, oh, this is a big company, they should give us money. Right. If it does align and you send the corporate social responsibility person an email, it's gonna resonate with them. Yes. Right. And that's step one. You gotta get their interest. And then if it doesn't align, it's okay. Then we just move on to the next one. The volunteer opportunities is number two. We talked about three, partner and learn together. Do you want to elaborate more on that? Is that more sort of like developing these partnerships together, rather than just us coming and saying, here's what we want? I think there's two things to it. There's a planning component to it which allows you to get engaged and figure out how to work with the company in terms of what are we going to offer. A lot of times what happens is that they put the responsibility to an employee volunteer who has been doing this for four or five years and has learned how to run these programs. And so you do some planning with them, and then the big part is afterwards you debrief and you say, what worked? What didn't work, what could we do differently next time? Because then two things will happen. One, you'll get better. Two is there'll be a next time, right. Because you're already planning for the following year. So that's what we mean by working together, because as time goes on, then they're able to get more people engaged. You might be able to balance. What if you ran an effort and you got way too many volunteers that came that time and you got overloaded? Well, let's adjust that and make sure that it's going to work better next time. Those are the things that you just learn as you go. And I think it's just an important part to just have a learning loop in any of these activities that you do. I love that. Playing the long game, not just saying, let's just get a check this year, like not making it transactional. And actually, I think that speaks to a lot of fundraising practices. You know, let's play the long game. Let's make it more of a partnership, let's make it more intentional, and let's figure out how we can create this relationship long term. And then number four is probably my favorite. Communicate impact, make it visible. What are some ways that we can communicate impact in this kind of partnership and relationship? Well, one way is a lot of times corporations themselves help you do that because they're trying to also demonstrate how, what kind of impact that they're having. So they do these CSR reports. They want to put a story in there to say what kind of impact that they had. So I think it's as simple as helping people know. Okay, how are you carrying out your mission? What good are you doing in the communities that you're working in? You know, if you're, you know, running up a food bank, how many families are you helping? And it's not rocket science. It's just the basic things that you're doing that can demonstrate to people that you're making an impact in the community. Yep. Because that's what the corporations want to be able to do. Because they want to be able to tell others that they were involved and helped those organizations do that. Absolutely. And let's not overthink it as nonprofits. I'm the worst overthinker in the world. I know a lot of nonprofits overthink how to communicate impact. But let's just keep it simple. Let's make it easy for our company partners, our corporate partners, to communicate it out to the employees. Let's not overcomplicate it. Okay. And then stewarding the relationship is, number five, what are some either examples or maybe some tips that you have, like, how do we keep this relationship going and stop it from maybe turning stale? Or how do we just really keep it fresh and inspiring? Yeah. Well, you have a list of volunteers that work with you. Yes. So those people should be a list that you're following up with and talking to and. And keeping them engaged in volunteering, because they might then come back and volunteer outside the corporate event thing. Right. Maybe they'll be on your board. Maybe they'll, you know, run the event committee or something. Right, right, exactly. They also have a lot of coworkers that go back and talk about their experience and, you know, so you could learn, begin to learn more about how just helping them articulate your story to their network. So you're getting to know. To know them a little bit better, and then you're putting them into an ongoing process of how can they support you over the long haul, which then gets you into the standard kind of stewardship things that nonprofits have been doing for a long time. But the key is to recognize who they are and how they came to you. Who they are and how they came to you. They came to you. Right. Because if they came through the workplace, remember, that's a more intentional person than if they reacted to an email that they got at the end of the year, right? Absolutely. They're already predisposed toward helping you. This relates so much to a lot of what I teach, where if someone is running like a peer to peer fundraiser. So, for instance, my friend Maggie is doing the pan mass challenge and raising money. And I gave Maggie money because I love Maggie. She's raising money, you know, to support cancer research because of her niece. It's like her story, her journey. Not that I wouldn't support the pan mask challenge, but if they came to me, I would be more inclined to look the other way. So with that, it's reactionary giving, but there's an opportunity for this organization to cultivate me in an intentional way. But I agree with you. I think we tend to lump all donors in the same pool. But what you just said is who they are and how they came to you is so vital. And we need to really understand that if we're going to increase donor retention in any way. Would you agree with that? Recognize who they are and then begin to understand those behaviors of those, of that type of donor, and then treat them along those ways and then it will grow? Well, okay, another statistic we're going to. I want to talk about donor retention just for a minute, because I think it really fits in with what we're talking about is how to attract younger donors. How do we reach new donors? How do we cultivate this next generation? How do we build more individual donors? Because we can see that it's kind of decimated across the sector. The donor retention rate is really pretty pathetically bad. Okay, so we know, I mean, 40, between 40 and 45%. And then I read, I believe, on the Blackbaud giving fund blog, 23% of donors churn just six months after their first donation, which means almost 70% of donors give only once to an organization. So how can we encourage ongoing support from our donors? I come back to this. Who's reactionary and who's intentional? If I were running a nonprofit, which I'm involved with, a couple of them at the board level, the first thing I do is let's talk to the people that are intentional with us, and let's make sure that they're good, that they're staying with us, and that if they have more to give, let's work that, because I think that's step one. And then step two is to look for other areas where you can find intentional donors. And that's why I like the workplace, because I think it is a source of, of new donors that may not be intentional. Now to you because they don't know about you, but they're getting involved because they want to be involved. Remember, they. 70% of people want to work for a company that has a social purpose. They want to be participating then in that social purpose. So I think that, you know, there's no magic bullet here for nonprofits can do this. And I know there's tons of different great strategies that fundraisers have been put together with online, social media and all those kinds of things. But I kind of look at the human side of it, and I'm looking for how do we find people that can be intentional? And that's why I like the workplace giving. I also like daft giving. If you find a daft giver that's in your database, boy, they should be somebody you should go after because they made a proactive decision to give to you, and they have money banked to give again. Right. And so those are intentional givers that are people that should be heavy in the stewardship process because you got a better chance of developing relationship with them. Oh, absolutely. The person that supported their friend in the pan master. I love it. So really thinking through, we love our reactionary givers. We love them, we support them, but we can't build our foundation on reactionary giving. That's, I think, what the mind shift change that needs to happen, we need to start building our infrastructure with the intentional givers, stewarding them, cultivating them, communicating with them. This is really, I'm just, my wheels are turning here. I think this is a total culture shift from what we've been doing and from what we feel like might be the easiest solution. Acquiring new donors, attracting new donors, fundraising on social media. Like, let's just get that quick donation. Sure. To keep the lights on. That's very important to get the reactionary givers, but we cannot sustain it. We cannot sustain what we're doing without the intentional givers. So we need to look for the pockets of them as well. Yeah. Here's an idea. Come up with a metric for what's the retention of your intentional donors. I love that idea. That might be a better metric for us. It won't be the full amount that you're raising, but there's a. It's a core, right? It's a core that you can depend on. Yeah. And this is why I kind of have an issue with the donor retention numbers. I think that a lot of us give because there are emergencies, or we might give because there's something in the news, or we might give because we feel very passionately about a cause that has gotten a lot of headlines or maybe it's political season or whatever it might be. Sure, we're not going to give to that year after year after year because it might just not be feasible. But how are we, as the small little bootstrapping nonprofits, the local community nonprofits, looking at their donors, really looking at like, who are the long term ones? How can we keep them so just be more strategic overall, unless just kind of fly by night? I'll share one more, another statistic with you, and this is true in the donor advice fund area, too. Over half, or about half, maybe slightly over half of workplace givers, or even deaf donors give locally, and they give about half of what they give locally. They'll, you know, they'll support their alma mater and some other large, you know, like the crisis of the day and that kind of thing. But they all like to focus locally, and that's an important thing, too, because a lot of, as you described, the smaller, you know, bootstrap nonprofits, they're going to depend on local donors. Absolutely. But the good news is that most of the donors want to focus locally. Absolutely. Well, this has really been, it's been kind of eye opening for me. I love that what we're talking about can really be data driven. And there are ways to become more, I guess, on our side, the nonprofit side, more intentional and less reactionary. And really look at where people are, where they came from, what are their passions? How are they giving? When are they giving? Who are they giving to? What spurred them to give? And looking for trends and seeing how we can reach these really untapped pools of donors like we're talking about in the workplace giving programs or the corporate sponsorship programs. These are, I think, not as tapped resources as a lot of organizations are looking to. They send their annual appeal letter. They preach to the choir, if you will, which I think you should. But we should always be looking outward for some new audiences to reach. So I really appreciate it. Matt, where can people reach you? Where can they learn more about your work and connect with you? Our website for the Black Belt Gaming Fund is full of information. We're getting more. We just launched a blog last year, and we're adding to content to it all the time. It's blackbaud baud givingfund.org dot. Blackbodgivingfund.org dot. Fantastic. That's so just really, really helpful. Thank you for coming on and sharing all of this fantastic advice with us. Been my pleasure. It's been fun. Well, hey there. I wanted to say thank you for tuning into my show and for listening all the way to the end. If you really enjoyed today's conversation, make sure to subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast app, and you'll get new episodes downloaded as soon as they come out. I would love if you left me a rating or a review, because this tells other people that my podcast is worth listening to, and then me and my guests can reach even more earbuds and create even more impact. So that's pretty much it. I'll be back soon with a brand new episode, but until then, you can find me on Instagram. Uliacambel 77 keep changing the world, you nonprofit unicorn.