Anjanette Sullivan is a Learning and Development professional 20+ years of accomplishment in designing, developing, implementing, and facilitating high-impact learning solutions. In this episode, Anji drops some wisdom on how organizations can better champion, implement, and facilitate their DEIB initiatives. She walks us through how to navigate resistance, hold space for opposition, and find common ground.
More about Anji:
Anjanette is a former Learning and Development Manager who has developed a unique approach to developing and engaging her employees, students, co-workers, and friends. She is highly skilled at identifying learning opportunities and recommending innovative solutions to close performance gaps and remove blind spots. Because of Anjanette’s passion for helping others to “be better every day in every way”, she has been a trusted business partner and advisor to Chief Human Resource Officers, Vice Presidents, Directors, Managers and Individual Contributors in a variety of industries. Anjanette earned an M.A. in Christian Education from Pfeiffer University and a B.S. in Biology from Furman University.
Anjanette Sullivan is a Learning and Development professional 20+ years of accomplishment in designing, developing, implementing, and facilitating high-impact learning solutions. In this episode, Anji drops some wisdom on how organizations can better champion, implement, and facilitate their DEIB initiatives. She walks us through how to navigate resistance, hold space for opposition, and find common ground.
More about Anji:
Anjanette is a former Learning and Development Manager who has developed a unique approach to developing and engaging her employees, students, co-workers, and friends. She is highly skilled at identifying learning opportunities and recommending innovative solutions to close performance gaps and remove blind spots. Because of Anjanette’s passion for helping others to “be better every day in every way”, she has been a trusted business partner and advisor to Chief Human Resource Officers, Vice Presidents, Directors, Managers and Individual Contributors in a variety of industries. Anjanette earned an M.A. in Christian Education from Pfeiffer University and a B.S. in Biology from Furman University.
Mike Cole 0:06
Welcome to season one of Peoplecast. Peoplecast is a production of Media Partners Corporation, providing best-in-class training content, technology, tools, and services. Media Partners will help your organization elevate workplace behaviors and culture. I'm your host, Mike Cole, and with me today as our co-host, and producer extraordinaire, Jerrin Padre. Say hello-in, Jerrin.
Jerrin Padre 0:25
Greetings everybody!
Mike Cole 0:27
Say "hello-in Jerrin?" Did you hear that?
Jerrin Padre 0:29
Say hello-in. That Irish came out of you. The Irishman
Mike Cole 0:33
You know what? We're gonna leave that in because...
Jerrin Padre 0:36
We love to hear it. No, it's fine.
Mike Cole 0:38
*clears throat* Well, yeah, we'll we'll leave that in. So, some companies have really done an amazing job creating standards and best-practices around DEIB. However, for many organizations, the topic is really overwhelming. In a recent interview with multiple company leaders, they were asked a perspective on diversity, and each one had a really different response. There were commonalities between the responses, though, the two common threads were "diversity" and "talent," and in many cases, those were expressed interchangeably. So how do companies look for creativity, resourcefulness, perspective, confidence, drive, and collaboration in their team members, all while maintaining an internal culture that reflects both global and local views? So literally, how do companies effectively embrace diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging? Our guest today is Anjanette Sullivan. She holds a Bachelor's (in) Biology from Furman University and a Master's in Christian Education with an emphasis on Adult Learning and Curriculum Design. Welcome Anjanette! I have a question for you. How would you like to be referred to in this episode?
Anji Sullivan 1:39
You can call me "Anji," thank you for asking.
Mike Cole 1:41
Mhmm, you're welcome. Great. So, Anji, before we get started, I want our listeners be able to get to know you just a little bit more. So we're gonna play a game called Rapid Fire, is that okay?
Anji Sullivan 1:52
Okay, that's fine.
Mike Cole 1:53
You're up for that?
Anji Sullivan 1:55
I think I am.
Mike Cole 1:56
Okay. That remains to be seen, I guess, but here we go!
Anji Sullivan 1:59
I'm shaking in my boots right now. But hey, we'll wait and see. *laughs*
Mike Cole 2:04
Okay, so what I'm going to do is I'm going to ask you have a question, and that's going to have two choices. And your goal is to respond with one choice.
Anji Sullivan 2:12
Okay.
Mike Cole 2:12
That's it. Here we go. Star Trek or Star Wars?
Anji Sullivan 2:16
Star Trek!
Mike Cole 2:17
Okay. That was a very emphatic answer!
Anji + Mike 2:20
*laughing*
Jerrin Padre 2:21
Very emphatic.
Mike Cole 2:22
Next question. Ariel or Jasmine?
Anji Sullivan 2:25
Oh, you know what, Ariel! Because Ariel's The Little Mermaid, right?
Jerrin Padre 2:29
Mhmm!
Mike Cole 2:29
Yep! That's correct.
Anji Sullivan 2:30
Yeah, so Ariel! Absolutely.
Mike Cole 2:31
Okay. Okay. First celebrity crush?
Anji Sullivan 2:34
Sean Connery.
Jerrin Padre 2:35
Of course! Knew it.
Mike Cole 2:36
Exactly, I do know that one.
Jerrin Padre 2:38
*laughs* Well, wait a minute. Let's see—yeah. Yeah. Because he was before Dwayne Johnson. Sean Connery.
Mike Cole 2:44
Oh, okay!
Anji Sullivan 2:45
And only when his hair was white, when he got older. Yeah. Mmm! Sean Connery. *laughing*
Mike Cole 2:54
Okay, next question. Do you Instagram your food?
Anji Sullivan 2:57
I do not.
Mike Cole 2:58
If you could travel back in time, what period would you go to?
Anji Sullivan 3:02
Oh, that's really a good one. Gosh, when I think about Downton Abbey I would like to go back to that time. I know that's fictitional.
Jerrin Padre 3:11
Mhmm.
Anji Sullivan 3:12
But I would love to go back to that time. Or, you know what—no, that's not true. I would go back to 2003 to see a friend of mine that—he passed away in 2003. If I could travel back to that time, and tell Mr. Jesse how much I love him, and see him again, as he passed away with pancreatic cancer.
Jerrin Padre 3:34
Hmm.
Anji Sullivan 3:34
So that would be the time that I traveled back down—back to.
Mike Cole 3:38
Okay, that's a solid answer right there like that.
Jerrin Padre 3:40
Yeah.
Mike Cole 3:41
Sorry, this next one's a little light. If you were given an all-expenses-paid trip to Cleveland, would you take it?
Anji Sullivan 3:47
Yeah, I'd take that!
Mike Cole 3:48
Okay, here we go, next question. Place you would most want to travel to?
Anji Sullivan 3:52
Oh, Iceland.
Mike Cole 3:55
Okay!
This will be a good one. Favorite junk food?
Anji Sullivan 3:58
Oh, gosh. I do not know. If Wheat Thins is a junk food—nope, that's a lie!
Mike Cole 4:06
*chuckling*
Anji Sullivan 4:06
Baked Cheetos. I love baked Cheetos! *laughing*
Mike Cole 4:11
Mkay. I do too. I like baked Cheetos. Yep. Those are good. I like baked Lays, and all that stuff.
Anji Sullivan 4:17
No, no, I don't like that. Just the baked Cheetos.
Mike Cole 4:21
Favorite childhood TV show?
Anji Sullivan 4:23
TV show... Oh my gosh! I don't know. Jonny Quest, Dungeons and Dragons, the Wild Thornberrys. I don't know, the Flintstones? And I'm still watching those things today. It varies!
Mike Cole 4:38
Okay, alright. Your favorite season of the year?
Anji Sullivan 4:41
Spring.
Mike Cole 4:42
Is double dipping at a party ever acceptable?
Anji Sullivan 4:45
No! Just, yeah, just dip your chips once. That's disgusting. Go somewhere and sit down.
Jerrin Padre 4:52
But never baked Lays—I would like to quickly circle back to this point...
Mike Cole 4:56
Oh, I'm sorry. I missed that
Jerrin Padre 4:57
.... and how outraged I am by the fact that you like baked Lays, Mike! (Editors note: I don't understand the sheer hate for baked Lays here. The only drawback is how you only get half the amount of chips, but otherwise they're great!)
Mike Cole 5:05
Well, okay, I like both, right. I do like both. And I have to be honest, this—you know, in all transparency. If I was given a choice: baked versus regular, I would take regular in a heartbeat. So...
Jerrin Padre 5:15
Okay, okay.
Anji Sullivan 5:16
See, I'm not into the baked Lays, but I like Pringles.
Jerrin Padre 5:21
See. Thank you. I don't mean to narc on the Lays line of chips, but I just think that they kind of seem like washed-up Pringles.
Anji Sullivan 5:29
That's it. Pringles are the chips.
Mike Cole 5:31
Okay!
Anji Sullivan 5:32
But that's just our preference.
Jerrin Padre 5:34
Yeah.
Anji Sullivan 5:34
That doesn't mean that that's necessarily right for everybody. That's just our preference.
Jerrin Padre 5:39
It's my truth.
Anji Sullivan 5:40
That's right.
Mike Cole 5:41
Okay, now that we have that cleared up. Thank you, Jerrin. I appreciate that.
Jerrin Padre 5:45
You're so welcome!
Mike Cole 5:47
It just—ehh, I'm sorry, it depends on how healthy I want to be.
Jerrin Padre 5:50
*laughing*
Mike Cole 5:50
If I'm feeling healthy, I'm gonna go with the baked Lays. If I'm not, I'm going to go for a midnight snack of just two handfuls of Lays potato chips, and maybe half the bag. Who knows?
Jerrin Padre 6:02
Who are you fooling? Who are you fooling? It's yourself. You're fooling yourself.
Mike Cole 6:07
Yeah, maybe so. Okay, so next question. Cake or pie?
Anji Sullivan 6:12
Gosh, that's a hard one. I do love key lime pie. But if there is such a thing as a key lime cake, then that would be perfect.
Mike Cole 6:22
Okay, so it's cake. Cake is the answer. Okay, last question. This one's—this one's harder. Okay? This one's gonna require some thought.
Anji Sullivan 6:29
Okay.
Mike Cole 6:31
It's a super serious question. Why can't we tickle ourselves?
Anji Sullivan 6:36
I don't know. I'm trying now to see if I can tickle myself.
Jerrin Padre 6:39
*laughing*
Mike Cole 6:40
For listeners who can't tell, yes, Anji is trying to tickle herself now to see if it's factual.
Anji Sullivan 6:45
No! I don't know. I don't know why that is.
Mike Cole 6:49
Okay. So I did a little research before the show. And it's a response with our cerebellum. Sorry, words. Our cerebellum—it's a response because we're expecting it. The whole part of tickling is that you're not expecting it. It's the act of surprise. So there you go. There's your scientific fact for the day. Which leads me to another question. What is brain freeze?
Anji Sullivan 7:11
You know what? I don't know.
Mike Cole 7:12
So it's—Jerrin, any response to that?
Jerrin Padre 7:16
No, I just want to know what it is.
Anji Sullivan 7:18
*laughing*
Mike Cole 7:19
I only found out because of the research I did on "why can't we tickle ourselves." Brain freeze is another response that your body gives because—the base of your brain is basically a temperature gauge, right? And it senses that your brain can't take temperatures below a certain degree. And so the more that you drink a cold beverage, the colder it gets. The more your brain responds. And the pain that you feel is a body response. It's a fight response to say, "You need to stop doing that. It's getting too cold."
Jerrin Padre 7:48
Oooh.
Anji Sullivan 7:48
Huh!
Mike Cole 7:48
Yeah. So it's a response that your body's giving to say, "Yeah, I'm gonna stop you because you can't stop yourself."
Anji Sullivan 7:54
Who knew?
Mike Cole 7:55
Who knew?
Jerrin Padre 7:56
Well, listeners, if you're feeling down about yourself today, just remember that your body is literally programmed to tell you to not eat as much ice cream because you will freeze.
Anji Sullivan 8:05
*laughing*
Mike Cole 8:06
Yep, you'll freeze your brain, and that—I don't know what happens after that. I have no idea, nor do I want to find out. But apparently your body will fight that. Okay, so that's the game.
Jerrin Padre 8:16
That was enlightening.
Mike Cole 8:17
It was! It was. I think listeners learned something about all three of us.
Jerrin Padre 8:21
Mostly that we just have a heavy bias towards Star Wars (Editors note: Jerrin and Mike both like Star Wars. Anji preferred Star Trek). I think that's the bottom line.
Mike Cole 8:26
Well, and a heavy bias not to baked Lays. So...
Jerrin Padre 8:29
Right.
Mike Cole 8:30
All right, well, listen Anji, I definitely—we appreciate you being here. I know it's gonna be a great conversation that we're gonna have today. It already has been. I mean, just enjoying, you know, you and your personality. But I do want to ask, you know, we've learned a little bit about you and some of the things that you like, but what about your story? Anji's story? Kind of give us a 1-1.5 minute rundown of your story. So, first things first, where did you grow up?
Anji Sullivan 8:55
I grew up in South Carolina. I am the daughter of a retired United Methodist minister. And, as a United Methodist minister, we moved all around South Carolina. So about every six years or so we were moving. From age 6 to age 14, I lived in a small town called Florence, South Carolina. And that's where I became Anji. And in elementary school, I had friends. Pauline Nicola Kokkif (s.c.). She was Greek. I had Hae-kyung Kim, who was Korean. I had black friends, I had white friends. I had all types of friends. And I remember sitting on the porch of my neighbor, and we would watch people just walk up and down the street. And at that time, they called some of the folks "cross-dressers" because they were males who were wearing dresses, and it was perfectly okay. And that just formed who I am—just starting to accept people as just people.
Mike Cole 9:56
Tell me a little bit more about that. Were there any memories that shaped—maybe not shaped. But, any memories that kind of got you where you are today, and any additional ones other than the ones you might have just shared?
Anji Sullivan 10:06
Our neighborhood was—it was the weirdest neighborhood. I've never seen anything like it before in my life. But this particular house probably should have been condemned. That neighbor had a bathroom on the outside; I guess you would call that an outhouse. And, mind you, this was in the 70's and 80's. There was not a lot of electricity, there was no central heat, there was no central air. There may have been two or three light bulbs in that house. And if we didn't think that they were "less-than," they were just my neighbors, and they were just my friends. And I also think back to my dad, and how my dad interacted and just embraced people, because there was a particular man who used to get drunk. I mean, it was always consistent. And he would come to our house about one o'clock in the morning, and he would want to talk to my dad about whatever—who knows? And my dad never turned him away. He always invited him in. And I mean, we were all in the bed by nine o'clock/10 o'clock. So this was really late for us, one o'clock in the morning.
And we just knew this was his routine about every two weeks; he would come over drunk and needing to capitulate about something. But my dad never complained, he was just like, "You know, this is what he needs. He needs to talk." And that kind of shaped who I was, too, because my parents just accepted people as people, regardless of their walks of life and whatever was going on. And that was just me. The other part—the other formative part of my childhood, I did also grow up in a household of abuse. And what that did for me—although my parents were very welcoming of other people, inside the house, things weren't necessarily the greatest. But, as far as I was concerned, I'd never wanted anybody to ever feel, like, excluded, or "less-than," or you had to walk on eggshells. So I was always welcoming to people first, because that's what I saw my parents do for everyone else. But then, also, because of what my experience was, I didn't want anybody to ever feel like, "Hey, you can be mistreated. And that can be okay."
Mike Cole 12:33
So I want to fast forward just a little bit. We mentioned at the beginning of this show, you get your Bachelor's from Furman University, Bachelor's in Biology. And then you have a Master's in Christian Education with an emphasis on learning—Adult Learning and Curriculum Design. So those are two very different degrees. Walk us through that journey. How did you manage to do that?
Anji Sullivan 12:59
Everybody laughs at that. Okay. So when I went to undergrad, I was supposed to be the first black female Jacques Cousteau!
Jerrin Padre 13:07
*chuckling*
Anji Sullivan 13:07
I was going to be this marine biologist. The problem was, when I got to undergrad, I realized, "Wait a minute, if I'm going to be a marine biologist, shouldn't I know how to swim?" And I didn't know how to swim! So instead of me thinking, "Hey, why don't you learn how to swim?" I was just like, "Oh, okay, what am I going to do with this degree?" Well, I thought that I was going to go into a lab or something. I really did love the analytical skills that I developed. But part of what I did in undergrad school—I was part of Carolina's Ohio Science Education Network. And we had to present our undergrad research at either Duke, or Oberlin, or Davidson. I had the great privilege of presenting my undergrad research at Duke. And this guy tapped my advisor and said, "Hey, you know, she's a teacher." And my advisor told me that he said, "This guy said you know how to make the complex very simple." Well, I was just like, "But isn't that what you're supposed to do?"
Well, no, it's not what you're supposed to do. Because when I came back to the university to present my undergrad research at Furman, I got dinged for that because by professor said, "Don't you know your audience? You really need to be more detailed here." Well, fast forward, I got a job at a financial services company, or a banking company, and when I was there, I saw my first manager, Amy Bullock—I'll never forget her just this wonderful woman. She was my trainer, and I didn't know such a thing existed. And when I saw that, I was like, "Man, that's what I want to do!" I wanted the skillsets that I needed to be a formal instructional designer and facilitator, so my degree—my master's degree—served dual purposes for what I was doing in the church as a Christian Education Director, as well as what I was doing in corporate America. And then the analytical skills helped me when I was doing any research for any of the instructional design. So, although I was no longer in a lab, I found out I just like people. So I had to get out of the lab, shift to people, and that's how I ended up in Learning and Development with the degrees that just don't seem to make sense. But it made sense to me at the time.
Jerrin Padre 15:41
Mhmm. I want to go back quickly to what you said about you being a great science communicator, and being able to communicate ideas in a way that people understand. I know, from my friends who have gone on to get their masters and postdocs, that academia can also be a very exclusive place. And just the fact that you got dinged for being a good communicator is so interesting. And obviously, like, this is what built Anji, but as you were going through that experience, what did you notice about academia that wasn't as inclusive?
Anji Sullivan 16:16
It wasn't academia for me, although that was an experience. Academia wasn't the issue. For me, it was moreso growing up in South Carolina. So growing up in the south, and having attended Furman University—unless you're in the southeast, most people never even heard of Fuman University. Furman University is, I guess, still to this day, predominantly white. And it's a small, private institution. At that particular time when I was there, there were about 2500 students, and only 91 of us were black. But out of the 91, the majority of those folks were actually athletes.
So if someone would see me with any Furman attire on, and whenever I would say, "Yep, you know, I've gone to Furman," they would say, "Hey! That's a great team." "No, I graduated from Furman." "Oh, wow!" And it's like—it's this big "aha" moment for anyone; that anybody black couldn't have gone, and if I went there, I had to have been an athlete. And so the fact that I even had a scholarship, and was able to go to what was thought of as one of the best liberal arts colleges in the US—but specifically in the southeast, it was one of the top-notch universities. And I just knew—I knew if I was going to get a job very easily, Furman being on my resume was going to help me do that. Because my dad actually wanted me to go to his alma mater, which was a historically black college. And there was nothing wrong with his alma mater. I just knew that if I went to Furman, because it had more prestige, that I would get recognized and get in the door a lot more readily, than had I gone to his alma mater. And that was just being in the south. Ehh, it was South Carolina. Not that South Carolina is a bad place, but... *laughing*
Mike Cole 18:15
Listen, I grew up in South Mississippi Anji. I grew up in the Dirty South. So I'm right there with you. I love my home state, my hometown. But yeah, there were things that went on that—at the time, did I recognize them? No, I didn't. But looking back, I'm like, "Okay, that did happen. And that was going on." And I you know, no sleight to my brothers in South Mississippi and sisters, but...
Anji Sullivan 18:39
Yeah...
Mike Cole 18:40
It was definitely a different environment. So yeah.
Anji Sullivan 18:43
I did have—while I was at Furman, there was a French teacher, Dr. McCoy. It was really interesting. I dated some guy, who was a French major. I wasn't a French major, but apparently I had a better technique, or something. I spoke French better, or it came to me more readily than it came to him. I don't know what the case was. But I remember, for the first time in my life, I felt like I had to dumb myself down so that he felt okay, and he wasn't threatened with my intelligence. And I remember Dr. McCoy pulls me to the side at the end of class, and she said, "Don't you ever do that again." I was like, "Do what? What am I doing?" And she said, "Last two trimesters, you were my top student. And now this dude is"—well she didn't call him that—"This guy"—whatever she called them—"is in this class, and now you're acting 'less-than.'" And that kind of really gave me the permission to just be me. She did that prior to me doing my undergrad research. So when she said that to me, I guess that's why, when the biology professor said something to me later on about knowing my audience, that just kind of rolled off my back. I was like, "Pssh, whatever! That's you." *laughing* But you're right. I never considered that, Jerrin—that she wanted me to be something other than what I actually was. So you're spot on.
Jerrin Padre 20:14
And just the gap between the percentage of men (vs.) the percentage of women in STEM in general, I think, as a woman, getting that note and basically being told to suppress a very core part of who you are—which as we know, from you, you're an amazing communicator, first and foremost. Yeah, it seems—it doesn't seem like as inclusive of an environment.
Anji Sullivan 20:35
I really had not considered that until you said it. But you're spot on.
Mike Cole 20:41
So next question from my side: out of college, what was your first gig?
Anji Sullivan 20:47
Out of college, actually, my first gig was a biology teacher. And I learned very quickly, I just could not do that, I—you know, I loved biology. I didn't like students.
Anji + Jerrin 21:03
*laughing*
Anji Sullivan 21:03
I really didn't want to say that. But I mean, let's just be real. I didn't like that experience. Got out of that very quickly, when into a laboratory environment, and then staffing people for laboratory environments. And that was just a little short term gig until I landed a role at Bank of America. And, there, I was helping people with their 401k, their benefits, that kind of stuff. But that's where I met Amy. And I didn't know that training was such a thing. Had I known when I was an undergrad that Learning and Development actually existed, I would have immediately gone down that path. And Amy, she just took me under her wing. She was younger than I was, but she had a lot of experience with Andersen Consulting at the time. So she was teaching me how to be a consultant; just all the ropes about Learning and Development, and how to help people not just learn the "what" of their jobs, but the "how": how do you interact with people? How do you assure that people are heard? And she didn't tell me that, so much. She showed it to me.
People spoke to her, and they shared things with her that they wouldn't share with other people. And I think that resonated so much with me, probably because I saw the exact same thing with my dad, and that they were extremely intelligent—or are, because they are both still living—but very unassuming. They just meet you where you are. They don't care what your educational background is or is not, how you look, how you dress. All they care about is just, "Hey, who are you? And how can I help you?" And I do that in everything that I do now. I just tried to help people be better every day in every way. Because that's what Amy taught me.
Jerrin Padre 23:03
So is that where your infamous motto came from?
Anji Sullivan 23:06
It did not come from her. I don't know where it came from. *laughing* But that's what—I've always done that. My guess is just what she lived—then all of a sudden, that was just who I was.
Mike Cole 23:22
So for listeners who don't know, Anji's landmark saying is, "Helping people be better every day in every way." Did I get that right?
Anji Sullivan 23:31
Absolutely. I don't care who you are, but, even if you need help with maybe paying for books to go to college. If you need somebody just to sit there with you and listen to you. And I don't care what your age is either. I mean, you can be 18 years old, you can be 4 years old. Whatever it is, I just want to help you, and I just love people.
Mike Cole 24:02
So at the beginning of the episode, we mentioned companies being able to embrace DEIB.
Anji Sullivan 24:07
Yeah.
Mike Cole 24:07
And how can they do that? And I just—I want to ask: at what point did you realize that there was an opportunity for you to kind of plug into DEIB, and help people? Whether it was people you worked with, or managers, or someone like that. At what point did you realize that you could actually be that voice? Be that advocate?
Anji Sullivan 24:28
Gosh. I worked at this small company, post my banking era, and I worked for this HR director. I would come in early—I like to work early and leave early—so I would be there maybe about seven o'clock in the morning, sometimes 6:30 in the morning, whatever. And I was always the first one in the office. Well, sometimes the cleaning crew would leave his door open in our office, and I was the only black female that was working on this team—this HR team. And whenever his door would be open, he would always come and ask me, "Anji, what are you doing in my office?" And I'm like, "Dude! I was not in your office." And I said, "Look, you need to check and see if it's the cleaning crew or what have you."
And something that my dad has always said to me, "People do according to their learning, or do according to their understanding." So I didn't hold this against him. I knew this was something that he learned, and he thought somehow—based upon whatever experiences, you know, based upon how he was raised, by whom he was raised, whatever the case was—that black people, for whatever reason, would either want to go fumbling around in somebody's office, or steal, or whatever was going on in his mind. But I had to remind him, I was like, "Look, I don't want you in my cubicle fumbling around in my stuff. So why would I be in your office fumbling around?" Well, that was the first time that I realized, "Hey, you know what, there's a way to say stuff and not be a jerk about it." And I kind of laughed it off, but I did have to pull him to the side one time, and really have a conversation with him and say, "You know, I'm not really sure where this is coming from. But this is just not me." And that's when I started having conversations, and seeing if other people were experiencing the same types of things.
And then I started with this motto that "conversations prevent consternation." If you just simply have conversations with people, you can start to make people aware, sometimes, of things that they're not even aware of. I don't think he was even aware of what he was doing. I mean, he was conscious that he was doing this, but I don't think that he was aware of why he was doing this. And I had to bring to his attention, "Hey, you know what, I don't blame you for this," I said. "But, the problem is you're projecting these beliefs, and these perceptions, onto me, and it's a good thing that I'm the person that you're doing this to because I can this conversation with you!"
Jerrin Padre 27:20
Yeah.
Anji Sullivan 27:20
But, I started having these same types of conversations with other leaders. And that's when I started, not just training communications, but start doing more research about diversity and inclusion, and what did that look like in the workplace, and started training on it. But I was living it as well. Anything that I say, I have to live it. And that came from Amy. I learned that from Amy: meet people where they are. A lot of times people have blind spots—which we call unconscious biases—but, by and large, I'm just a firm believer that we have to assume innocence, and give everybody a chance. And then what they do with that chance is up to them. Then it's out of your hands.
Mike Cole 28:09
So we've experienced—you know, we've worked with companies, and we've had coworkers, and we've all at some point felt, maybe, a need to speak up, or to say something when you see either someone being mistreated. Or, you know, just a comment that rubbed you the wrong way.
Jerrin Padre 28:25
Mhmm.
Mike Cole 28:26
What would you say, Anji? Is the—what's the biggest hindrance for people to not want to do that? What's the biggest hindrance to cause him to just not say anything?
Anji Sullivan 28:36
Fear. Fear of not being accepted by others, or repercussions if they do speak up. And actually one of my best friends just left a company because she did speak up. And one of the things that I shared with her, I said, "And when you do that, then you've done all that you can do." And unfortunately, the response was. "Maybe it's your attitude, maybe you're negative. Maybe the problems with you." And she said, "Anji, this was the very reason I didn't want to do this." And I said, "I got it." I said, "I got it." I said, "But here's the thing, now it's no longer on you."
Jerrin Padre 29:17
Hmm.
Anji Sullivan 29:17
People do that. They deflect, and sometimes some people don't want to own some of the things that they may be doing because, if they do—"Now, I won't fit in with this group," or whatever the case may be. But I think a lot of it is just fear of acceptance, or fear of repercussions.
Jerrin Padre 29:37
Or fear of retaliation.
Anji Sullivan 29:38
Fear of retaliation—although that's illegal, that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen and it does happen, and it does happen subtly. Bullying is not illegal. There are companies that have policies against bullying, but that doesn't mean that it does not occur. And harassment when people do speak up. But yeah, you're absolutely right. It's that fear of retaliation, or not being accepted.
Mike Cole 30:06
So what if I'm in a company that—maybe the the culture is not conducive to any sort of inclusivity? Or there's a lack of equity in the culture itself? As an employee in that company, what's one step that I could take to either start embracing DEIB myself, or to start getting people to take up the megaphone of allyship and advocacy? What's that one thing that I could do?
Anji Sullivan 30:32
Model it yourself. And one of the things that we talk about at Media Partners is using the STEP model: Stopping, and Thinking, and Exploring, and Preparing. And one of the things that I'm a big proponent of is Stopping, because it's easy for us to point fingers at everybody else. But I would always ask people to look inward and say, "Is this an assumption that I'm making? Is this my perception? Am I stereotyping people?" And before you say something to someone, or about someone, or whatever the situation is, ask yourself the question, "Would I want someone to treat me that way? Or behave that way with me?" And if not, then stop and really think: where is this coming from? Is this coming from social media? Is this coming from how I was raised, where I was raised? From the experiences? You know, my beliefs, or what have you? The other thing that I would ask other people to do, as well as an employee, is that you can do it a grassroots way. It can be you, some team members, just a group of you saying, "Hey, this is what we're gonna do. This is how we're going to interact with other people." And, a lot of times, when people see you leading by example, and living the values that you espouse, then oftentimes, they start to do the exact same things. That doesn't mean that everybody's going to subscribe to that, but they will know that they can trust you, and the word will get out. And then all of a sudden, you know—"Well, wait a minute, well, what are they doing differently?" And then sometimes, that's how you change it from the bottom up, instead of from the top down. But it all starts with us individually. And if you don't see the change immediately, one of the other things I would say is: remember that on a ship—a large ship—you have the small rudder, and it takes an extended period of time for that ship to turn. So, things are not going to change overnight. All of these behaviors, these beliefs, they didn't occur overnight. They didn't occur in two weeks, they didn't occur in two months. Give the ship some time to change directions.
Jerrin Padre 32:59
What about the folks who are a little more hesitant when it comes to having these conversations? Obviously, D&I training, Unconscious Bias training. There are so many companies pushing those initiatives, which makes a lot of sense. But often those initiatives are greeted with certain levels of hesitancy, and you have people coming to the table who just don't really want to be there. So, I guess, what would you do to incentivize those people to engage in the dialogue?
Anji Sullivan 33:29
That's a hard one! That's a great question. But that's a really hard question.
Jerrin Padre 33:33
Yeah.
Anji Sullivan 33:33
Because there are some people where their mindsets will not change. But the one thing that I will say is—again, it's not pointing fingers at people. But it's helping people to realize that, "Hey, this is a place of no judgment, and a place to learn. Learn more about ourselves, and learn more about others." I'm not wanting anybody to walk around here on eggshells. This is not about political correctness, because that's how many people have said it to me. "You know, we got to be PC. I'm so afraid of saying anything. I'm going to hurt somebody's feelings." And when I tell people, again, it's not about judgment. It's not about telling people that they're wrong, it's just learning about ourselves. And that'll help us to better work with one another. And unless you're aware of what makes you tick, and what makes other people tick, then, hey, you're going to continue to have these struggles that you otherwise don't necessarily need to have. So just give it a chance.
Jerrin Padre 34:35
And it does make me feel for facilitators like yourself, and trainers, and D&I professionals, who have to hold space for all of those different perspectives in the room. And have to cater to all of these different experiences so that, hopefully, they can all engage in this conversation. I imagine that's pretty difficult.
Anji Sullivan 34:55
Yeah, it can be—it really can be rough. What I've seen, though, is that sometimes people will walk in, and they may not have that "aha" moment at the end of any training. But what happens is that they have an "aha" moment at some other point in their life. So I'm very hopeful about all of the things that are occurring right now. I don't get discouraged when I see someone saying, "This is just stupid. It doesn't matter. I don't get it." People say that typically prior to going into training, or what have you. But at the end of it, even if someone is still feeling like, "Yeah, whatever, this was just not for me." What I have seen is that people have come back to me two, three, sometimes even four or five years later and said, "I didn't see it, man. I see it now. And I thank you." And that's the reason that I do what I do.
Mike Cole 35:56
And you do it well, I can tell you that.
Jerrin Padre 36:00
Mhmm!
Anji Sullivan 36:00
*laughing*
I don't know about all of that, but I thank you for that.
Mike Cole 36:04
Now, you mentioned—you didn't have to mention it. We all know, it just—just the global climate that we're in right now. And a lot of the things that are going on—it's a lot to take in. If you watch any of the news media outlet, or any social media, we are bombarded from all sides with everything going on. And to your point, I mean, if things are going on, that means conversations are happening and people are realizing. And whether they're listening or not, they're they're having to take notice. But my question for you is: all of these things going on—what does Anji do to decompress? What's your go-to thing to just take a breath, and just get out of the negative bubble?
Anji Sullivan 36:46
It was a question you asked me earlier: my favorite childhood show, I believe. And I said, "Wild Thornberrys, Jonny Quest, and the Flintstones." I watch that stuff. *laughing* That's what I do. I turn the news off. I turn off all social media. I will just disconnect. I also just make sure that I surround myself with people who are just happy. People who are really positive people, because—what's the saying? Misery loves company. And, you know, we can all get into that, and talk about all the woes of life. But I always tried to find something to celebrate.
Mike Cole 37:33
Well, listen Anji. It has been a blast having you on the show. I don't know that we've laughed as much on any other episode we've done so far. And that's just who you are. And we appreciate that. So thank you for being on the show.
Anji Sullivan 37:48
Thank you so much for allowing me to be a part of your journey, and for allowing me just to be me!
Mike Cole 37:54
Ah, you're welcome Anji. It's been a pleasure. And thanks for listening, folks, and you'll catch us next time on Peoplecast!
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