Leader on disability inclusion, autism, and neurodiversity in the workplace, we’re joined this week by none other than Haley Moss! In Part 1 of this two-part episode, Haley walks us through her journey—from non-speaking to lawyer to speaker, author, artist, and advocate. She helps us break down Neurodiversity: what it is, who it represents, and how it differs from diversity of thought.
More about Haley:
Haley Moss made international headlines as the first documented openly autistic attorney admitted to The Florida Bar. She received her Juris Doctor from the University of Miami School of Law in 2018 and graduated from the University of Florida in 2015 with her B.S. in Psychology and B.A. in Criminology & Law. Haley is the author of Great Minds Think Differently: Neurodiversity for Lawyers and Other Professionals. Her next book, The Young Autistic Adult’s Independence Handbook, will be available in November 2021. Haley is also the author of Middle School: The Stuff Nobody Tells You About and A Freshman Survival Guide for College Students with Autism Spectrum Disorders. Haley’s work on neurodiversity, autism, and disability has also been published in national media outlets. She was appointed to the Florida Bar Young Lawyers Division Board of Governors and the Florida Bar Journal Editorial Board. Haley also serves on the constituency board for the University of Miami – Nova Southeastern University Center for Autism & Related Disabilities. You can find Haley on haleymoss.net or on social media.
Leader on disability inclusion, autism, and neurodiversity in the workplace, we’re joined this week by none other than Haley Moss! In Part 1 of this two-part episode, Haley walks us through her journey—from non-speaking to lawyer to speaker, author, artist, and advocate. She helps us break down Neurodiversity: what it is, who it represents, and how it differs from diversity of thought.
More about Haley:
Haley Moss made international headlines as the first documented openly autistic attorney admitted to The Florida Bar. She received her Juris Doctor from the University of Miami School of Law in 2018 and graduated from the University of Florida in 2015 with her B.S. in Psychology and B.A. in Criminology & Law. Haley is the author of Great Minds Think Differently: Neurodiversity for Lawyers and Other Professionals. Her next book, The Young Autistic Adult’s Independence Handbook, will be available in November 2021. Haley is also the author of Middle School: The Stuff Nobody Tells You About and A Freshman Survival Guide for College Students with Autism Spectrum Disorders. Haley’s work on neurodiversity, autism, and disability has also been published in national media outlets. She was appointed to the Florida Bar Young Lawyers Division Board of Governors and the Florida Bar Journal Editorial Board. Haley also serves on the constituency board for the University of Miami – Nova Southeastern University Center for Autism & Related Disabilities. You can find Haley on haleymoss.net or on social media.
Mike Cole 0:05
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Peoplecast. I'm your host, Mike Cole, and with me today is our co-host and producer extraordinaire, Jerrin Padre.
Jerrin Padre 0:14
Hi, everybody.
Mike Cole 0:16
That's all you're gonna say? That's it? You're not gonna talk about the weather like you did the last episode?
Jerrin Padre 0:20
Okay, it's been—It's gone up into like the mid-to-high 90's lately. This is like the first week, I think, that it's really starting to feel like "L.A. summer," and I live in an old building. There's not a lot of insulation. So you walk in, and it's way hotter than it is outside. And we need to pull out our little dinky air conditioner that—it'll cool down like a two-foot radius around it, but... *laughing*
Mike Cole 0:45
Yeah, sitting around the little air conditioner.
Jerrin Padre 0:47
Oh, yeah!
Mike Cole 0:48
Like the campfire, but air conditioning.
Jerrin Padre 0:48
Mhmm! Yeah.
Mike Cole 0:49
Okay.
Jerrin Padre 0:50
Yes!
Mike Cole 0:50
You don't walk around with a little handheld battery-operated fans? You don't do that?
Jerrin Padre 0:54
No.
Mike Cole 0:55
We do. We do here in Arkansas.
Jerrin Padre 0:56
I don't even know where to get those anymore.
That would make sense, though. I feel like that feels very southern.
Mike Cole 1:01
It is! It is. I mean, we've had the same 90- degree weather, but you add to that 100% humidity. And here, it's—it's we call it—Around here, we call it the Air You Can Wear so..
Jerrin Padre 1:11
I'm sorry. I didn't recognize my privilege.
Mike Cole 1:13
*chuckles*
Jerrin Padre 1:13
My low humidity privilege.
Mike Cole 1:15
You have a low humidity privilege. Yes. I didn't talk about the weather here. It's 88 degrees here today.
Jerrin Padre 1:21
Ohhh!
Mike Cole 1:21
And humid. 100%.
Jerrin Padre 1:22
How much—what percentage humidity?
Mike Cole 1:24
100%. Yeah. So there you go. There's your weather forecast for today. Here in just a bit, we're going to get a weather forecast from our guest. Because today I've—we said this on the pre-show when we were going through the technical checks, that I'm geeking out about today's conversation. I've been looking forward to this episode—not to slide any of your other guests. I certainly don't want to do that. But I've really been looking forward to this episode.
Jerrin Padre 1:46
Oh, yeah! Before we started recording today, Mike was like, "I'm nervous!" And I was like, "Me too!" And we were telling Haley this and she was like, "Don't be nervous! It's just a conversation. You just get to talk to cool people!" Which is absolutely true. But I think it's because we haven't really had the chance to sit down and chat with you before. So...
Mike Cole 2:06
Yeah!
Haley Moss 2:06
Oh my gosh! I'm just excited to get to hang out with you all.
Mike Cole 2:09
So for our listeners today, we have Haley Moss! Just some things to attach to Haley's accomplishments: She's a neurodiversity expert, attorney, author. You've got, what, four or five books now?
Haley Moss 2:21
We're coming up to number four! My third just came out, like, a couple days ago. So I will be shameless self-promoting just a little bit.
Mike Cole 2:27
Yeah, we will—we will definitely have an opportunity for that.
Jerrin Padre 2:30
Proudly!
Mike Cole 2:31
Yeah, yeah, because at the end of the show, we'll offer resources. And that is definitely going to be a value-add there. You're also an artist! And for our listeners who might need it, Haley, do you want to kick us off, and give us a bit of a visual description of you and your surroundings?
Haley Moss 2:45
Absolutely! So first off, hi everyone! My name is Hayley Moss. My pronouns are "she/her," just in case you are wondering how to attach things to me. A little bit of what I look like: So I am a white woman; I have long red hair, some of it is pinned behind my head; and I'm wearing a dark blue shirt with little red and pink flowers on it. And behind me is a black and white painting of an anime-type girl. There's a couple of little pops of teal in there. So you can see a little bit of teal in the bow in her hair, and there's also, behind my head, a little pop up of teal where she has a giant lip print on her shirt, but you can't really see it because my head is blocking it. But that's what you can see. And if you can see further to the sides of me—which I can't see here in our recording studio, but I can see a little bit beyond as well is that it's actually part of a triptych. So there's three paintings that look almost exactly alike, just the little color pops are a little bit different. So that's me and my surroundings.
Mike Cole 3:41
Alright, Jerrin, you're up!
Jerrin Padre 3:43
Hi, everybody! I'm Jerrin Padre, my pronouns are "she/her." I am currently sitting in my bedroom office. Behind me is a painting. I have long black hair, and I'm wearing brown tortoise-shell glasses. And I'm wearing a striped shirt, which is also my pajama shirt because I woke up an hour ago.
Haley Moss 4:02
*laughing*
Jerrin Padre 4:04
And I have brownish skin.
Mike Cole 4:07
"Brownish?" Okay.
Jerrin Padre 4:08
It's not as bronze as my typical self. My "true self."
Mike Cole 4:11
Oh, so you're ready for the summer?
Jerrin Padre 4:13
Yeah, I need my melanin to increase.
Haley Moss 4:16
I feel that!
Mike Cole 4:17
Well, yeah. You're Haley. You're (in) Florida, correct?
Haley Moss 4:20
I am! And today's weather report does not help the melanin situation whatsoever. It is hot, humid, and we are in the middle of thunderstorms.
Mike Cole 4:28
Yep. So if you hear a little ambient noise, listeners, that's Haley providing some nice natural ambient noise there of thunderstorms and lightning. So my name is Mike Cole, and I am a white male, and I am sitting in my office space. It's white walls. And behind me I have three pictures. You can't really see them. But if I panned up you could. One of them is a small billboard from a drive-in that I used to go to when I was a kid called "Squirm" and it's about a bunch of man-eating worms that—because of an electromagnetic pulse, these worms come up out of the ground, and they take over this community. So that's one of the paintings. The other one is a pig singing into a microphone, and there's a little brass plaque at the bottom that says, "Hamateur Hour." And, if you can't guess, I'm a movie buff. love music, and I love Marvel Comics—I'm not a DC guy. Sorry if you are. I am wearing a black shirt with a white-piped collar, black readers. I have kind of blonde-ish, salt-and-pepper hair. So there you go. That's us: the triad today.
Haley Moss 5:32
See, we actually learned some fun things when we get to do visual description! Sometimes it's not what you think of and just be like, "Oh, this is what my face looks like."
Mike Cole 5:38
Exactly. Hey, we're going to learn something else about you. We are going to go into a little game that we play on this show. A little game called This Or That?
Haley Moss 5:46
Let's do it!
Mike Cole 5:47
What I'm going to do, Haley, is I'm going to ask you a few questions. And most of the questions will be one or two word responses. Just pretty quick. First thing that comes to mind. So if you're ready, we're going to go into This Or That!
First question. Texting or talking?
Haley Moss 6:01
Talking.
Mike Cole 6:02
Ah! What's the fastest speed you have ever driven, or ridden, in a car?
Haley Moss 6:05
90?
Mike Cole 6:06
Really?
Haley Moss 6:07
It's an educated guess. I was definitely the passenger, if that helps.
Mike Cole 6:10
Oh, you were just like, "We're really—we're going really fast."
Haley Moss 6:13
We're vibing! Haha!
Mike Cole 6:15
Ah. *chuckles* Next question, paper or plastic?
Haley Moss 6:17
Paper.
Mike Cole 6:18
Star Trek or Star Wars?
Haley Moss 6:20
Star Trek!
Jerrin + Mike 6:22
Hmm.
Mike Cole 6:22
Is that 4 for 4?
Haley Moss 6:23
Am I the minority picking Star Trek?
Jerrin Padre 6:25
No, you're the majority!
Mike Cole 6:27
Yeah.
Haley Moss 6:27
Okay. I just respect all that Star Trek has done in my community. So, I've actually never really spent time watching either of them. I just know that many people in my community have a love of Mr. Spock. And also that Star Trek has always been super inclusive of everybody for a long time. So...
Jerrin Padre 6:44
Right.
Haley Moss 6:44
Major props to them!
Mike Cole 6:45
Yeah, that—no, okay, you've got it there. That was that was spot on. Because I watched Star Trek, you know, way back when, and it was definitely a lot of different groups represented. You know, granted, they were called Klingons and other names, but you could get the idea, right? You understood that they were inclusive.
Haley Moss 7:05
Mhmm!
Mike Cole 7:05
And I've never thought about that. I really haven't. So, thanks for shedding light on that.
Haley Moss 7:09
Mhmm.
Mike Cole 7:10
All right, we won't slight you for Star Trek because of that.
Haley Moss 7:12
*laughing*
Mike Cole 7:12
We'll give you that Star Trek.
Okay, next question. Do you know how to salsa dance?
Haley Moss 7:17
No.
Mike Cole 7:18
Did you ever want to learn?
Haley Moss 7:19
Sure!
Mike Cole 7:20
Okay. All right. Alright, so next question Haley: giving presents, or getting presents?
Haley Moss 7:26
Getting presents!
Jerrin Padre 7:27
*laughing*
Mike Cole 7:27
Yeah, I'm in the "getting presents" camp myself. Alright, have you ever tasted soap? Now, I'm not talking like—you know, like, Bath and Body Works. I'm talking like bar soap.
Haley Moss 7:37
No. *laughs*
Mike Cole 7:38
Never done that? Okay. I was curious once, and just wanted to taste it. And it was awful! So, if I was at school, and I wasn't feeling well—my mom worked, so I would call this neighbor to come get me, and I would play the pity card. "Oh Mom's at work. I don't feel well." I was in, like, third or fourth grade. And she would always come get me, and then call my mom. And my mom would come by after work and pick me up. But, anyway, her name was Mrs. Huff. And Mrs. Huff would come get me, and...
Haley Moss 8:00
Mhmm.
Mike Cole 8:00
She took me to her house one day, and she had this really nice formal living room. Right? And so I walk into the formal living room, and there's this little dish of candy in the middle of the little coffee table there. So I look, and, you know, it's different colors. And I grab a piece, and pop it in my mouth. I quickly realized that it wasn't candy. It was scented soap.
Jerrin Padre 8:20
Oh no...
Mike Cole 8:21
And, um—yeah, so I have tasted soap before! Yes I have. Okay, now that you know that about me, let's go on to the next question.
Haley Moss 8:30
*chuckles*
Mike Cole 8:31
What is the maximum number of spritzes of perfume before it's too much?
Haley Moss 8:34
Umm, my guess is five because I have limited sense of smell. So I have to, like, kind of go a little heavy, and I'm scared to be a walking cloud.
Jerrin Padre 8:42
*chuckles*
Mike Cole 8:42
Okay. What type of milk do you put in your cereal?
Haley Moss 8:46
None.
Mike Cole 8:47
Wait. Clarification, please. None?!
Haley Moss 8:50
Yeah! I actually eat cereal out of the box, or just poured in a bowl with no milk!
Mike Cole 8:54
Okay, okay.
Jerrin Padre 8:55
That's fair.
Mike Cole 8:56
Yeah, that's fair. Yeah. All right. Would you eat a day-old taquito from 7-Eleven?
Haley Moss 9:00
No.
Mike Cole 9:01
Would there ever be a time that you would ever do that?
Haley Moss 9:04
No, and I will probably die on this hill.
Mike Cole 9:05
Okay. All right. Alright, a couple more questions: do you Instagram your food?
Haley Moss 9:09
No!
Jerrin Padre 9:10
*laughs*
Haley Moss 9:11
I don't go out enough when I eat the same, like, five things anyway.
Mike Cole 9:14
Oh okay, so you wouldn't Instagram your box of cereal? Like, "Here's lunch!"
Haley Moss 9:19
Unless my face was somehow on the box, and I was like a milk-carton kid, except I wasn't missing then...
Jerrin Padre 9:24
*laughs*
Haley Moss 9:24
Because I always think of—people who end up on cereal boxes or milk cartons are usually people that are either very, very famous, or something very bad happened to them. Like if I was, like, Patrick Mahomes—like, remember when his face was on, like, Mahomes Magic Crunch that was, like, in Hy-Vee. I remember seeing it online. Like, if that were me, I would absolutely Instagram my box of cereal.
Mike Cole 9:40
Did you know now that they have Loki Charms? Have you seen that?
Haley Moss 9:43
Ooo!
Mike Cole 9:44
Yeah, so Loki from the Marvel Avengers (movies).
Jerrin Padre 9:47
Or like Norse mythology.
Mike Cole 9:49
Or like Norse—*laughs*
However you want to say it. That's fine.
Jerrin Padre 9:51
Right.
Mike Cole 9:52
I'm just trying to be current.
Jerrin Padre 9:53
I'll get you Loki Charms, Mike. And then you can get me the Lady Gaga Oreos.
Haley Moss 9:58
I was thinking about the Lady Gaga Oreos at the same time we were talking about Loki Charms.
Jerrin Padre 10:02
Mhmm! I would like those.
Mike Cole 10:04
So, I have a—I have a mission after the episode: I have to go find the Lady Gaga Cheerios. I'll send them—
Jerrin + Haley 10:09
Oreos!
Haley Moss 10:09
Get it straight!
Mike Cole 10:11
You said Cheerios! (Editors note: they said Oreos, sorry Mike)
I'm thinking, "I've never heard of the Cheerios before!"
Haley Moss 10:15
No! We said Oreos!
Mike Cole 10:16
I'm gonna replay—
Jerrin + Haley 10:17
Lady Gaga Oreos!
Mike Cole 10:18
Okay, I will replay the episode.
Jerrin + Haley 10:20
*laughing*
Mike Cole 10:21
Okay, for journaling: paper or computer?
Haley Moss 10:23
Computer.
Mike Cole 10:24
Ah, okay.
Jerrin Padre 10:25
Yeah, I'm with you there. My iPhone notes.
Mike Cole 10:27
Yeah.
Haley Moss 10:27
Yep!
Mike Cole 10:28
I think I've lost all ability to write. I don't know that I could write anymore.
Jerrin Padre 10:33
Yeah!
Haley Moss 10:33
I get—so I can actually write pen-to-paper. It's just that I'll get an idea or something I need to write down that second. And you know that second—when you have your great idea, you don't have a pen of paper on you, and you know you're going to lose that thought in about 30 seconds. So, gotta write it down somewhere, and usually it's my iPhone notes.
Jerrin Padre 10:47
Yep!
Mike Cole 10:48
Yep. I would agree. Final question. Which animal adds more joy to the world: squirrels or llamas?
Haley Moss 10:55
Probably the llama. Although, I really do want to send my love to squirrels, because I'm pretty sure that's one of the official mascots of folks who have ADHD. They may or may not resent it or love it, but the squirrel has a special place in my heart. Llamas, I think just seemed pretty wholesome.
Jerrin Padre 11:09
Are they wholesome? I don't know. I have—I've known a few people—
Haley Moss 11:12
They look wholesome in the pictures! They're fuzzy. I feel like I want to pet one.
Jerrin Padre 11:16
I would say approach with caution, because I've known a few people who've owned llamas, and they're great for like keeping the grass trimmed. But they get pretty aggressive. They will kick, they will spit, like—and you can't look it in the eye either. Because that might instigate it to kick at you.
Haley Moss 11:34
Mhmm.
Jerrin Padre 11:34
So that's—that's my bias against llamas.
Mike Cole 11:39
We all have biases.
Haley Moss 11:40
Squirrels can be kind of nasty too. I mean, we have a lot of squirrels where I live.
Jerrin Padre 11:44
Yes!
Haley Moss 11:44
And my pets used to chase after them, and it didn't always go well. No one got hurt. But like squirrels can be nasty. They're rodents.
Jerrin Padre 11:51
They are.
Mike Cole 11:52
They are the rats of the trees.
Jerrin Padre 11:54
And they can get brave. I feel like especially if they're socialized, and are around other humans, they'll just take over a park bench. And they'll stare at you if you try to sit down, and then you get a little bit scared. So maybe they're in the same camp.
Haley Moss 12:06
No squirrels.
Jerrin Padre 12:07
I think they should team up. Yep, llamas and squirrel should form a— form an alliance
Mike Cole 12:12
Form an alliance. *chuckles*
Alright, well, I tell you what—that's it. That's all the questions I have. I learned a lot.
Haley Moss 12:18
*laughing*
Mike Cole 12:18
I really learned a lot. And that's why we do that. So we try to keep our episodes in a certain timeframe. But, I don't know that I really want to do that with this episode so much. Because there's—there's so much that I want to talk to you about.
And I think there's a lot of things maybe that listeners, you know, may not be aware of around the topic of neurodiversity. I have to be honest, I mean, the word neurodiversity— I hadn't really technically heard of it or embraced it until we learned that our granddaughter had SPD. And for those of you that don't know, SPD is sensory processing disorder, and it's been a learning process to learn how to help her manage that and to understand how to react when—when certain things happen.
And so I'm thankful that you're on the show today, because I think you can provide a lot of color around neurodiversity and, you know—and just the topic in general. So I'm super excited about it. And I just want to kind of get into the episode, but I want to talk a little bit about the beginning. So where did you grow up Haley?
Haley Moss 13:23
I grew up in Florida. So I've been a lifelong Floridian. I'm from Boca Raton, so that's about an hour north of Miami. Most people think of Boca as the place that a lot of retirees are. And honestly, it's—it's quiet. It's not—I like where I grew up. I'm the only child. And I've lived there, and I lived in Parkland, Florida, which most people associate with Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, unfortunately. And yeah, I've just been a lifelong Floridian, and I went to University of Florida for undergrad; went to University of Miami from law school, and I hadn't left Miami since.
Mike Cole 13:59
So law school. So you are a practicing attorney, correct?
Haley Moss 14:03
Mhmm! The cool thing is that I get to say I'm the "lawyer who doesn't lawyer" because I'm currently not in practice. My full time job is getting to actually teach people about neurodiversity. I get to do all sorts of different trainings and events, workshops, keynote speaking. All of that kinds of stuff, and I also do some consulting, I do all that cool stuff. So I have the best job in the world. But I'm still very much involved with the legal profession and lawyering. I just don't actually take clients to represent in court.
Mike Cole 14:28
So you're a neurodiversity expert. And "Oh, by the way, I can also do law stuff."
Haley Moss 14:33
I'm not a regular lawyer. I'm a cool lawyer.
Mike Cole 14:34
A cool—okay.
Jerrin + Haley 14:35
*laughing*
Mike Cole 14:36
I can see that. I can see that.
This show is supported by Media Partners. Even with the best of intentions, it's easy to say, do, or avoid something that makes someone else feel bad or uncomfortable. And today more than ever, the focus on diversity, equity, and inclusion is on the minds of business owners and their employees.
Jerrin Padre 14:56
We know you want to do the right thing for your people, and culture. And Media Partners is here to help with Unintentional Still Hurts: an in-depth, multi-part DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) training program that offers a blueprint for positive change. Unintentional Still Hurts will be released later this month, so stay tuned for updates!
Mike Cole 15:21
So, you know—in your upbringing in Florida, were there any memories that—childhood memories that you had that kind of maybe foreshadowed a bit of—told the tale of where you are today?
Haley Moss 15:32
Probably one of the most on-brand stories from my childhood is: I was about five years old, and I was late to start speaking. So I was non-speaking up until I was nearly four. And I've always been kind of quiet, kind of shy. But when I was about five, we went to my uncle's wedding in New York City. And, you know—you know how weddings are. There's all sorts of dancing, there's toasts, there's all this good stuff.
So it's toast time at this wedding, and five-year-old me, in my infinite wisdom, asks if I can give a toast to the bride and groom. And I don't know who let me do this, but they actually let me give a toast to them. And I apparently said some really nice things, and like "stole the show" type-thing. And I've heard this story many different times from relatives over the years, and it's probably why it surprised nobody that a lot of what I do is public-speaking based, that I was my law school student-commencement speaker—like all the types of stuff, like, makes sense. And it's like that one story from childhood.
I also did a lot of acting, and drama, and theater. But, I was always very quiet. And I think that's something people don't quite get is—they think that performers are these natural like extroverted types, they don't shut up. And that wasn't me. Or that lawyers are the kids that are on the debate team. That wasn't me, either. So when we talked about my childhood and my upbringing, I point to this very specific memory, because that's the one thing that seems like a foreshadow in that way. Like, sure, I was very quiet. I struggled making friends. I was very shy, very introverted, always have kind of been. But in that—but I was also a performer. So I was—I was very comfortable with public speaking, because the same demands weren't there that are present when you have a one-on-one conversation or in a small group.
And I also just loved getting to share whatever I had to share or wanted to share, and people would listen. I always thought that was really cool about acting or public speaking, right? That is like, you get to talk about the thing that you want, or convey to the world, and other people have to listen.
Jerrin Padre 17:33
Hmm.
Haley Moss 17:34
I just think that's completely mind-blowing compared to other types of socialization.
Jerrin Padre 17:39
So when you put yourself in those public-speaking events and situations...
Haley Moss 17:43
Mhmm.
Jerrin Padre 17:44
You know how, like, Beyonce has Sasha Fierce, right?
Haley Moss 17:47
Mhmm.
Jerrin Padre 17:47
She has like her alter ego that she steps into, because she's, like...
Haley Moss 17:50
Uh-huh.
Jerrin Padre 17:50
...a very quiet, introverted person. But then she has to be like Sasha Fierce on stage because she's Beyonce. Um...
Haley Moss 17:57
*laughing*
Jerrin Padre 17:57
Do you feel like—when you're speaking to large swaths of audiences, do you feel like you're Haley Moss, or do you feel like an alter ego of Haley Moss?
Haley Moss 18:08
I feel like I'm just Haley with the volume turned up.
Jerrin Padre 18:10
Yeah.
Haley Moss 18:11
I think that's the best way to describe it. I don't feel—because I feel like saying you're an alter ego makes it seem almost, in a way, inauthentic. Because I don't think I'm...
Jerrin Padre 18:18
Yeah!
Haley Moss 18:18
... not myself. I think that I'm absolutely who I am. It's just—sure, there's certain things I might not share with 6000 people that I might share with, like, my best friends, or my family. Like, I think everyone has those types of boundaries naturally. But I feel like it's just me with the volume turned up, because I feel more comfortable. I feel more likely to share things on my terms. That I'm in control of the situation. It's a very different way of conveying messages, honestly. So I still feel like I'm me, it's just the volume's turned up. And you might not talk about the same things that we're talking about, like neurodiversity, with someone you just met. Of course, like, in our conversation, now—y'all invited me to talk about it. But if I met you on the street, or it was the first time you and I got coffee as friends or something, we probably wouldn't have that conversation.
Jerrin Padre 18:58
Yeah. You wouldn't give me your 20 page dissertation on...
Haley Moss 19:01
*laughs*
Jerrin Padre 19:01
... breaking down neurodiversity in the workplace.
Haley Moss 19:05
Probably not. I would probably figure—I'd probably just say I'm an attorney, and kind of leave it there at first. Or I'd say that I'm a writer. I'd find something else to say in that first, like, one-on-one with somebody. Or if it was, like, just getting coffee with a friend that doesn't really know what I do, or doesn't really know that much about me, I'd probably leave it, kind of, a lot more humble and modest, because that's just how I am as a person.
Jerrin Padre 19:28
Hmm!
Haley Moss 19:28
But in my professional life, I have to be very forthcoming. I have to be very, "Oh, yeah, I do this, this, and this. This is actually what I do. It's very cool." I mean, I do think it's really cool, don't get me wrong. It's just that the way that I think you explain it to somebody who doesn't want to know the nitty-gritty of everything that you do. It's like when you meet a doctor at a cocktail party, and then they tell you they're, like, a surgeon. And you don't really want to ask 50 billion questions like, "Oh, what was the last surgery did? What kind of surgery do you do?" You're like, "Okay, cool. That person is a surgeon. Now what?"
Jerrin Padre 19:55
Yeah.
Haley Moss 19:55
But if you're at, like, an event where surgeons are talking, or the guy's a surgeon, and he's telling stories about somebody's life he saved, that's a very different situation.
Jerrin Padre 20:04
Hmm.
Haley Moss 20:04
And he's inspiring you by the lives that he saved. It's very different.
Mike Cole 20:08
Yeah, at a party, you wouldn't want a surgeon to tell you—you know, to start telling you how to operate on a brain, or how to, you know, do this thing or that thing.
Haley Moss 20:16
Oh god no.
Mike Cole 20:17
*chuckles*
Yeah, the free diagnosis.
Haley Moss 20:28
Yeah that happens to all types of professionals. It happens to me as an attorney, usually people want to know about, like, family issues. Or, like, wills and trusts. Or like their, like, landlord issues. And I go, "Yeah, when I was in practice, I used to represent hospitals. And I used to also go after terrorist organizations." Probably not your person for wills and trusts.
Mike Cole 20:44
Hmm!
Haley Moss 20:44
It's like asking your cardiologist about the bump on your arm. It's the same thing. I don't know, kind of a weird—kind of a weird aside of how we present ourselves in very different situations.
Jerrin Padre 20:53
Yes.
Haley Moss 20:54
And it's not that we're a different version of ourselves, or we're faking it.
Jerrin Padre 20:57
No.
Haley Moss 20:57
It's just that how we share ourselves is very different from situation to situation.
Jerrin Padre 21:02
Mhmm. And there's a code-switching element to where...
Haley Moss 21:04
Mhmm!
Jerrin Padre 21:04
... different groups and different people bring out different sides of yourself.
Haley Moss 21:08
Absolutely.
Jerrin Padre 21:09
But really, I feel like it demonstrates a sense of empathy.
Haley Moss 21:13
Mhmm, absolutely! And I think that marginalized people code-switch even more. So if you're marginalized by gender, or sexual orientation. Or ability, or religion. Or something else that makes you different from the norm, you're doing it as well to make yourself more palatable, or more likeable to other groups. So, this is something that I know that, as an autistic person, I do a lot. It's called masking. And basically, you're trying to appear socially competent, appear socially acceptable. Say the right things, follow the right social cues. Seem like you know what's going on, and reading people, even though sometimes you're not able to very well. And even just sometimes being more mild-mannered because of sexism, or whatever it might be, is that—we code-switch all the time. And I think if you're marginalized in some way, you just are more cognizant of it. And there's more of a purpose to why you're doing it. Not the, "Oh, I don't want to share this with this group of people. It's, "I need to have the presumption of competence. I need to be seen...
Jerrin Padre 22:06
Hmm.
Haley Moss 22:06
...as a full person, and not just a checkbox on a diversity list. Or pity, or whatever it might be.
Jerrin Padre 22:12
Do you feel like there's a lot of external pressure on neurodivergent folks to mask in a certain way, or to present as "high functioning" in the workplace?
Haley Moss 22:23
Oh my gosh, yeah. I think there's so much to unpack here. I think with that masking element, there's so much to unpack. And it's even more prevalent, that I've noticed, in neurodivergent communities of people who are marginalized by gender and communities of color because, for us, it's also a survival skill. You don't want to seem vulnerable.
Jerrin Padre 22:38
Right.
Haley Moss 22:38
You don't want to be a victim of brutality, or you don't want to be harassed. Or you don't want to be stalked. There's all sorts of other things that go into that social performance. But I think, at work, it seems that we're told from a young age, at times, that the only way people are going to accept you is if you act normal. That if you suppress. For instance, if your hands are moving too much, or you don't understand something, or something's overwhelming. Or if you feel like you're gonna have a meltdown, "just have it at home, don't have it at work." I mean, I know it's very distressing for us. It's distressing for other people. But I think there's, kind of, these messages that get sent to us from a young age is that—it's not that you have to even be socially acceptable, it's that you're told to "be yourself, but not like that," so that other people accept you. And that's not true. The right people will accept you no matter what.
Mike Cole 23:24
So help me clarify—you mentioned the right people will accept you, regardless.
Haley Moss 23:29
Mhmm!
Mike Cole 23:29
Is there a bit of a rift in the neurodiverse autistic community that—that says that neurodiversity—maybe not ignores, but plays down, or puts away treatable symptoms versus where you're being accepted as, "I'm not abnormal. This is me normal." Is there a bit of a rift in the community that some people feel like it's not valid, and that there are treatable symptoms. And you shouldn't look at it as normal, that it really is abnormal?
Haley Moss 20:26
This is such a great question. And I think it's very individual-dependent. So, I know plenty of folks who are neurodivergent who will take medication, for instance, to lessen anxiety, or depression, or other types of traits or symptoms. But that's a quality-of-life issue for a lot of us. So I am for any type of research, any type of intervention that will genuinely improve outcome and quality-of-life that's not fundamentally changing us as people. So when we talk about that, I think that's very okay. And something else that I noticed when we talk about neurodiversity is that—it's that a lot of people kind of miss this thing. It's—they think that neurodiversity just means differences, and that we just see these types of conditions like autism, ADHD, mental health disabilities, intellectual disabilities, etc. as—we just see them as differences. And quite honestly, that's not true. That's kind of the biggest misnomer that goes around about neurodiversity. It's that neurodiversity does still see these conditions as disabilities. That, even in a perfectly accepting world, it's never—certain things are not gonna be peachy, no matter what. That we're not going to be normal, so to speak. That there are certain things that are always going to be very difficult.
So, the perfect world will still have things that I find very difficult. It will still be difficult for me to do certain tasks on my own. Even in Fantasyland, where everything should be accessible forever, that not every place is going to be sensory-friendly. That some people will still have meltdowns, or feel overwhelmed because of their environment—is that, even in a perfect world, we're still disabled in some way. So I think that if we're able to improve quality-of-life however we can, whether it's—and I know that a lot of communities have very different views on these things, but I kind of see it as: if you're able to manage things better, and it makes you happier, and improves your quality-of-life, and not just contributing to stigma, per se, I think that's fine. So, I think that's more of my personal opinion and take on it. Because I know that, especially with mental health disabilities in the neurodiversity community that are far more stigmatized. And I know that for a lot of people, different interventions, including medication or therapy—that's a game changer, and it helps them see the world more clearly. It helps them accept themselves more, all sorts of different things. But I can't speak to all of those individual experiences, because they're not my experiences.
Jerrin Padre 26:10
Can we quickly pivot to neurodiversity in the workplace?
Haley Moss 26:13
Yes!
Jerrin Padre 26:14
Because I feel like a lot of what you were just saying was sparking up my thoughts about this. And so okay—neurodiversity as a term, I feel like, at face value, it seems pretty straightforward, right? You have "neuro," which means "nerves" or "pertaining to the nervous system," and then "diversity."
Haley Moss 26:31
Mhmm.
Jerrin Padre 26:31
And I was excited to talk to you about this. Because I feel like I've seen it taken out of context, and then used synonymously with diversity-of-thought. Which, in my mind, they're two different things. But I wanted to get your perspective...
Haley Moss 26:43
Yes!
Jerrin Padre 26:43
...on it like—would you mind, first of all, defining neurodiversity? And then kind of explaining how it differs from simply having diversity-of-thought?
Haley Moss 26:52
Okay, so I guess it's easier to define what I think diversity-of-thought is, and I think that's a difference of perspectives and ideological feelings, and things like that. But neurodiversity speaks to something a lot more broad than that. You could have ideological and diversity-of-thought within neurodiversity. So neurodiversity, as a broader concept, is this idea that we have different brains. Very simple. And, with this idea of different brains, it's that we have people who—and that these differences are natural. They're regular variations to be respected and accepted. So different types of brains are considered neurodivergent.
So the ones that aren't your kind of typical, "neurotypical" brain. So, people who are neurodivergent do include our folks who might be diagnosed with something like autism, ADHD, learning disabilities, intellectual disabilities, Tourette Syndrome, sensory—sensory processing disorder, and also mental health disabilities. So a lot of folks who are mentally ill are also neurodivergent. And sometimes they reclaim that identity as part of this community. Other times they don't. Every person identifies very differently. But you do have different—differences in cognition, more so than diversity-of-thought that—yeah, someone who's neurodivergent might be a black-and-white thinker. They might think differently, they might think more creatively. It doesn't mean that there's a diversity-of-thought, so much as there might be a diversity of thought-process, and how their brain works.
Mike Cole 28:18
So for companies: what can companies do...
Haley Moss 28:22
Mhmm?
Mike Cole 28:23
to prioritize neurodiversity? What can they do to, you know—to be leaders in that space and make their employees who are neurodiverse feel welcome and included?
Haley Moss 28:37
I think this looks very different when we're talking about recruiting people, versus people who are already there. So I want to start with people who are already there. Because, chances are, you already have a neurodiverse group. Today, the three of us are neurodiverse group; we all have different brains. And not every one of us is neurotypical. And even if we were, all three of us are neurodivergent, in some way, and we're all different from each other. So we're neurodiverse group, it's really cool stuff. Chances are you have someone who is neurodivergent working for you already, if not multiple people, whether or not they've disclosed.
So most of the stuff I get asked about is, "What do I do if someone doesn't disclose?" And I think the most interesting way to see this is—let's just see, how can we improve accessibility and inclusion for everybody? Not just that one person who we kind of wish would tell us that they're neurodivergent. So I like to see this as kind of a top-down approach. And especially if you're trying to either get that openness, or that vulnerability is—when people who are in positions of power are very vulnerable, and share their struggles, or their marginalizations, or their differences with everybody else, it somehow kind of opens the floodgates. So, I actually taught a college class last semester, and I was very open with my students about my autism. That sometimes I might suck at getting back to their emails because executive functioning, like, and please remind me. Don't feel bad about following up. It honestly helps me that I had those types of conversations then, and my students were very forthcoming about everything with me.
I had students who were telling me they were LGBTQ, students who were also disabled and neurodivergent, who were not telling me that for the purposes of receiving accommodations. Some of them were not receiving accommodations in my class. But they wanted me to know that because they felt they could trust me. And I know that's not a work situation, but that happens a lot is that—when someone in a position of authority makes you feel heard and seen, that's so big! It's that you feel comfortable sharing yourself because they brought theirselves to work. So I think when we have people in positions of power who are doing that, that's such a great step for all sorts—all sorts of inclusion, honestly. It's that we all feel that we want to bring ourselves to work, whoever we are. And sometimes we don't always feel it's possible, or that that pressure really falls on you as a new person to be your full self, because that's what they're expecting.
So that's kind of one of my big things that I think companies can do right away is: have your leaders be accepting. And also, with neurodiversity, I think it's even, "How do we set up our systems to be basically accommodating of different types of learners? Of different types of workers?" So, do we have different ways of sharing deadlines? What kind of communication styles are we using? What can we do to make sure that everybody can understand, can do the work, and also feels seen? So I think it's a very individual thing. And I kind of come at this from a universal design perspective of that, "How can we make our environments suited for everybody?" That, "How can we take into account everybody's unique needs, strengths and weaknesses?"
And I think with neurodiversity at work, it's really important we focus on people's strengths. We are very quick to go straight to the weaknesses of, "Oh, this person might not be great at socializing. They might not be great at communicating with clients." But, what you really hired them for is the fact that they are brilliant problem solvers, or that they are able to do some kind of technical wizardry that is beyond you and me. So it really is person-dependent. And I think that, when we talk about neurodiversity, we have to think big picture and little picture, all at the same time. Is that—how can we be accommodating and inclusive of the greatest number of people possible? And how can we also be respectful of an individual's access needs? And what kind of accommodations they may need or support that they may need at the workplace?
Mike Cole 32:14
Um, I don't know about you. I would cancel all my other appointments today, just to keep this conversation going. Definitely.
Haley Moss 32:14
Oh, me too! Me too.
Mike Cole 32:14
So I think we are at time, but I do want to thank you. We'll see Haley again in the part two of this discussion around neurodiversity. So, Haley, thank you for being here today. And we look forward to seeing you in part two of this episode.
Haley Moss 32:35
Absolutely! Thank you so much for having me! And I suppose, before going on to part two, that you were not that nervous at the end. And I hope that I made you feel comfortable.
Mike Cole 32:43
Yes. Very—
Jerrin Padre 32:44
And now we get to hang out with you longer so...
Mike Cole 32:47
Exactly!
Haley Moss 32:47
See? It all turned out okay! Because, when we first got started, y'all were talking about how you were nervous and had butterflies. And like—oh my gosh, no. I want to put everyone at ease. I don't want you to be nervous. I want to see this as a conversation, and look at us! We have so much to say, we're just gonna keep going.
Jerrin Padre 33:01
I know. We're all pals now. We'll just gab all day.
Mike Cole 33:04
That's right. Well, Haley, thank you again.
Haley Moss 33:06
Thank you again for having me!
Mike Cole 33:07
Oh, you're welcome. And hey, thank you folks for listening. And we'll see you next time on Peoplecast.