"Inclusion is a practice. It’s a mindset and a practice." – Haley Moss
She’s back! Welcome to Part 2 of Neurodiversity with Haley Moss. In this episode, we continue our discussion around Neurodiversity. We delve into disclosure, discussing “soft disclosures” and advice for managers on creating a safe space for disclosure conversations. In addition to Abelism in the workplace and busting common myths around Autism.
Resources:
"Inclusion is a practice. It’s a mindset and a practice." – Haley Moss
She’s back! Welcome to Part 2 of Neurodiversity with Haley Moss. In this episode, we continue our discussion around Neurodiversity. We delve into disclosure, discussing “soft disclosures” and advice for managers on creating a safe space for disclosure conversations. In addition to Abelism in the workplace and busting common myths around Autism.
Resources:
Editor's notes 0:00
There's a loud noise at :15. Mute or skip to :30 to avoid it.
Mike Cole 0:06
Hey everyone, welcome back to Peoplecast. We're going to continue our discussion around neurodiversity. And please welcome back Haley Moss!
Jerrin Padre 0:13
Like magic. She's back.
Mike Cole 0:15
Oh, wait, we have to applause... *plays wrong sound effect* Oh that's not applause!
Jerrin + Haley 0:21
*laughing*
Mike Cole 0:22
Hang on, wait.
Jerrin Padre 0:22
That's a lot of...
Haley Moss 0:23
That sounded very...
Mike Cole 0:24
Here we go! *applause sound effect* Welcome back, Haley Moss.
Haley Moss 0:26
That was kind of overwhelming!
Mike Cole 0:28
Was it? I'm sorry. I didn't mean to, uh...
Haley Moss 0:30
I almost found that, like—a little as, like, a sensory assault. Like I was not expecting that.
Jerrin + Haley 0:34
*laughing*
Jerrin Padre 0:35
Yeah.
Mike Cole 0:36
Totally my bad.
Haley Moss 0:37
See, we can use that as a little teachable moment about people with sensory differences!
Mike Cole 0:41
Hmm!
Haley Moss 0:41
That it might not have sounded as loud to you as it did to me. And it startled me because I wasn't expecting that.
Mike Cole 0:46
Well, that's, that's another part of our (Mike's) granddaughter's processing disorder is loud noises. And she is unable to manage those. So we do have to be careful.
Haley Moss 0:56
I can't handle certain sounds.
Mike Cole 0:57
Yeah, yeah.
Jerrin Padre 0:58
So for someone who may be neurodivergent...
Haley Moss 1:01
Mhmm?
Jerrin Padre 1:01
... and has a particular diagnosis—and they are debating whether or not to disclose—what are a few things that you suggest they think about when arriving at that decision? And obviously, it's different for everyone, right?
Haley Moss 1:14
Absolutely!
Jerrin Padre 1:15
Speaking from your experience, what is that process? And what are the pros and cons of disclosing?
Haley Moss 1:21
Okay so first off, disclosure: it is a super personal decision. Do not do it because someone tells you to do it; do it because it's something you feel comfortable with, and do it on your terms. I always like to explain to the neurotypical folks around that disclosure is very situational. And it looks very different for everybody, and also looks different depending on the situation. So how I might disclose in an interview setting looks very different than how I might disclose to someone I'm working for; looks very different than the way I might disclose to somebody on a first date; looks very different than the way I might have that conversation with a friend when we're out to dinner, and it's very loud and crowded. And I haven't said more than, "Oh, I'm autistic." to them.
The legal answer to when, or if you should disclose is: if you need accommodations, you have to disclose. That is the time that you disclose, is if it's going to impact an essential function of the job. Think about when you were in school. If you wanted extra time on a test, you couldn't just go, "Oh, can I have extra time on the test?" You had to probably provide documentation, you probably had to disclose something. There were all sorts of different considerations at that point too. The pros and cons would very different for everyone. I think some of the pros is that you might be able to get that extra support. If you do need formal accommodations, you can get them. But, I know that also a lot of us are afraid of being treated differently. That fear of the unknown, I know, from the employer perspective, or whoever else may be in a position of authority—maybe it's a supervisor, whoever it is—I know that you're afraid that maybe they're going to retaliate against me. There's all sorts of very valid fears, on top of being able to be your full self, and get the help or support that you might need.
So again, this is very situational. And if you really don't want to disclose, but you kind of want to disclose, I always recommend doing a soft disclosure. So this actually can work for anybody, whether or not you're neurodivergent, or disabled, is—a soft disclosure is a really quick way of saying, "I need help with x," without actually saying you have a diagnosis. So for someone who might have difficulty with instructions, or ambiguity, or knowing how much time to spend on something, all you can do is say, "I work best when you give me clear instructions," or "I work best when I know how much time to spend on something."
Jerrin Padre 3:23
Hmm.
Haley Moss 3:23
And boom! You're gonna get exactly what you need, and it empowers you, and empowers the employer, or other person you're working with. And you never mentioned to them that you have trouble with regulating your time because of a neurological difference, or neurodivergence. You never once mentioned that word in that conversation—just by saying, "I work best when you give me clear instructions," or "I work best when I know exactly when the deadline is." Of—oh, don't just say, "Go do this." I need it, say, "Oh, I want you to do this, and try not to spend more than an hour on it. And I need it by the end of the day." That's—in a way, that's an accommodation. And that's also something they can do to support you. But you don't say why you need that. You're just saying, "This is how I work best." Or, "This is how you can help me help you." That—it's a very cheat-sheet way to engineer this disclosure conversation, if you are not requesting formal accommodations, or you just don't feel comfortable outing yourself. Or you don't feel comfortable disclosing in a formal way.
Jerrin Padre 4:17
Yeah. And what about on the manager, or position of authority side?
Haley Moss 4:22
Mhmm?
Jerrin Padre 4:22
What are some things that—besides obviously just getting more educated on the space. What are some practical things that they can start doing to make it a little bit more of a safe space to disclose, or have those soft disclosure conversations?
Haley Moss 4:37
So I think even just asking, "How can I best support you?" Or, "What is your learning style?" There's all sorts of weird little questions that you can use to mine that information, if you wanted.
Jerrin Padre 4:46
Hmm. Hmm.
Haley Moss 4:46
And something for employers that I always say is I like to give advice on what to do if you're on the other side of a disclosure conversation. What do you do if somebody comes to you and says, "I'm autistic"? Like, how do you handle that information? Because oftentimes, we spend a lot of time teaching neurodivergent people, disabled people, self advocates how to have those conversations. But we don't really focus whatsoever on people on the other side. What do you do with this information? And sometimes the best thing you could do is say nothing. But you can listen, you can thank them for sharing it with you. Or you can just say, "How can I support you?" Don't say something like, "I would have never known if he didn't tell me." Or, "But you don't look autistic neurodivergent," etc. Like don't say anything that could be taken as a backhanded compliment, or microaggression.
Jerrin Padre 4:47
Mhmm.
Haley Moss 4:48
Just thank them for sharing in the nicest, supportive, non-judgmental way you possibly can. So, "Thank you for sharing that with me." "How can I support you?" There's a way to say that that probably sounds a little bit less robotic, but I think you get what I'm trying to get at. And something else that I recommend you do is find out who else knows, and if it's okay to share. Because, like, any types of things when you're dealing with sensitive, invisible type information—and I think this also goes with sexual orientation as well—is you don't want to inadvertently "out" somebody. So it's okay to ask who else in the company knows. It's okay to ask if you can share it with another manager or another employee, because it might help them support this person too. So I think knowing who else knows, and if it's okay to share that information if they don't.
So I might not feel comfortable with my colleagues, or people that I manage, knowing I'm neurodivergent, but I might be okay with the person I'm working alongside with on a very specific project knowing, as well as my boss. So I think, for managers, having that open dialogue is really powerful. And it's okay to ask questions. It's okay to admit you don't know something. But also, don't try to rely on people as your sole education. It's okay to ask for more information, and to learn more on your own time, or even to still seek out neurodivergent experts and people who spend a lot of time doing this stuff. And especially with DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion), more generally, because we genuinely care. We genuinely are passionate about what we do. And we want things to be better for everybody else. It's not just, "Oh, I'm doing this so the workplace can be more equitable for me." No. The workplace, in many ways, is equitable for me. I realized that there are lots of places that I have privilege. I was born in this country; I am white; I am educated; I went to grad school. There's so many ways that I am privileged. And I know that my disability, and often my gender, are the things that kind of do marginalize me at work. So it's important to realize that we have different privileges in different ways, and to hold that—and even as managers—that there are ways that we experience marginalization. And there are ways that the people around us experience marginalization, and that can be very different. So sometimes listening is the best thing you could do, and do it in a non-judgmental way.
Mike Cole 7:38
I think that leads into a question I had back in—earlier in your comment, you mentioned microaggressions. And you mentioned that...
Haley Moss 7:45
Mhmm?
Mike Cole 7:45
... knee-jerk response that you might have. "Oh, I would have never known!" Or, "I had no idea!" I think, sometimes, those responses come from what we've learned over time, or what we think we know, right? And so we put that...
Haley Moss 7:58
Uh huh.
Mike Cole 7:59
.... that in, and we respond based on what we think we know. What are some common misconceptions around neurodivergent people? (People with) autism, specifically? Are there any myths that you really just want to bust or dispel right now? And...
Haley Moss 8:13
Oh my gosh.
Mike Cole 8:15
Go ahead. And then we'll get to the next question. But tell me about that.
Haley Moss 8:18
So I guess, because we are coming out of the pandemic, one of the biggest ones that still needs to be repeated every single time is that vaccines don't cause autism. I don't know why. I feel like that's probably one of the weirdest ones that, I feel like, comes up more often than not, especially in recent discourse surrounding vaccination and COVID. And coming back to normal. So first off, please don't throw autistic people under the bus while you are debating whether or not getting a vaccine is safe, or effective, for you. That is a decision you need to make. That is a decision with your doctor. Do not think autism is that. I did not get double-autism as a result of that. I wish that I did, it would have been a very cool superpower. But that's not how life works. So that's myth number one.
Some of the other really big ones that happen are, "You don't look autistic!" Or, "I never would have known if you didn't tell me." And people say these things at the best of intent. I know you mean well. I know you were trying to say something nice to me and give me a compliment. But that is kind of harmful. Because one: there's no specific way that autism looks. And if you're telling me wouldn't have known if I didn't tell you, that means I'm probably doing a very good job overcompensating or masking. And that is not the thing I want to be celebrating. I kind of just wish that you would acknowledge that I told you, you thanked me, you asked how you could support me. Or even just asked, "What does that mean to you?" Or like, "What does that mean to you, that you're autistic?" Like, "What does like—how does that affect you?" Because all autistic people are different.
Which kind of brings me to my next myth that I like to dispel, is that there is no one autism. So, just because you've met one autistic person doesn't mean you've met all of us. Like any kind of marginalized minority group, that we're not a monolith. So not all women are the same. Not all autistic people are the same. Not all people of color. The same, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So it comes in that, usually, this idea of "high-functioning," and "low-functioning," which are kind of harmful themselves. Because it's—one group gets denied the support that they need, and the other group gets denied the fact that they're actually capable of doing things. So if you're going to say someone is high or low-functioning, you could say that they might have more need for support in "xyz" area of their life. Or you can also just say that they have fewer support needs. Describing someone's functioning kind of hurts. Like, I was diagnosed as high-functioning, and "high-functioning" meant, in a lot of situations, that I was "normal" enough not to get support. And if I would ask for certain support or accommodations, it was denied, because "You're high-functioning, you're practically normal." And it discounts having real disability. But my folks who would get described as low-functioning, including non speakers, they would just be written off as "incapable of doing anything." That people gave them support, but they wouldn't push them, or they wouldn't get excited about what they're capable of. So I think we need to really just, kind of, evaluate how we view autism, and what our understanding is. And oftentimes, it's a lot more limiting than we think. It's very stereotypical. We think it's someone who is non-speaking, banging their head against the wall, might also have a co-occurring intellectual disability. Or we think it's one of those computer geniuses from, like, The Big Bang Theory, or The Good Doctor, or some very stereotypical version that, typically actually, is a white male. So when we think about what autism looks like, who is autistic, and how we portray it and understand it, we have to look inward, and also do a better job educating ourselves.
Mike Cole 11:36
So early on in your diagnosis, were you ever told at any time that you'll never be able to do "x"? Or—oh, you know, maybe your parents were told, "Oh, she'll never be able to do 'x'." Tell us about that.
Haley Moss 11:50
Yep! So when I was first diagnosed, my parents were told I would be lucky to graduate from high school. I would be lucky to make a friend, and I would be lucky if I held a minimum-wage job. And also if I got a driver's license.
Jerrin Padre 12:04
Wow...
Haley Moss 12:05
So we were told all sorts of things. Even when I wanted to go to University of Florida, people were saying, "Don't go. That's too big. That's too much." "That's too 'this'." That there was always someone saying "no" at every single step of the way. And I feel like you have to know yourself, and, as parentsb—I'm not a parent, so I can't speak to parenting—but I think parents also have to trust themselves, and also know their kids. I did accomplish all the things that those initial diagnosing physicians said that I couldn't. I did graduate from high school, I do have a driver's license, albeit I still can't quite 100% figure out how to park within the lines. Something about the spatial awareness just doesn't sit right with me, and it's something that I've been working on forever now. I did make friends, although I still struggle with it. And I do have a really great job. And I've been a corporate law firm attorney, and I've also been a small business owner. So I've definitely done more than just hold a minimum-wage job—and there's nothing that's dishonorable about that work whatsoever, and there are plenty of autistic people who do have minimum wage jobs. And people's intellectual disabilities. And that's their goal. And that's success for them. And that's not something to be ashamed of. But I think the way that we stigmatize what success is, or what the least or most someone will be able to do, just is unfair. Imagine saying those things to the parents of a three-year-old.
Jerrin Padre 13:19
Hmm.
Mike Cole 13:20
So how did your parents support you? What are some things they did?
Haley Moss 13:23
My parents are the greatest people you'll ever meet. Like, honestly, I kind of wish that people sat down, and talked to them more than me sometimes.
Jerrin Padre 13:29
*chuckling*
Haley Moss 13:30
But my parents were always willing to try new things. They wanted to help me. So even when it came to speech—that my parents had me in speech therapy. They had me in occupational therapy. I was horseback riding. There was play therapy. My parents would try everything with me. They tried enrolling me in ballet; they tried enrolling me in music classes; they tried enrolling me in art classes. They've tried literally everything with me. And, unfortunately for us, I'm not an athlete. It's the one thing that I'd never quite figured out. So I'm not athletic, by any means, but that didn't mean my parents didn't try. And instead of forcing me to keep going to dance class, or a music class, or any of these things that I wasn't good at, we would just pivot and find something else. And when we found things that I was good at, my parents encouraged me to keep growing in that. While I know a lot of what we talk about right now—about neurodiversity at work, and what neurodivergent needs, and all the stuff—a lot of that might be newer to my parents, because that vocabulary didn't exist. Because neurodiversity is a term didn't really come into existence until the late 90's.
So, while the vocabulary for what we talked about might not have existed, it doesn't mean that my parents didn't practice that. And I told my mom that's something I really respect. I was like, "Mom, you and dad were always super accepting. You always—you didn't see me as less of a person. You didn't have this, like, pity or tragedy model on who I was. That you guys were doing neurodiversity before neurodiversity was cool." So when we talk about what my parents did right, I can be here all day, honestly. But I think that's something—when we talk about diversity, equity and inclusion, and social justice, that we don't talk about enough—just because someone doesn't have the vocabulary, or doesn't know the vocabulary, or the vocabulary doesn't exist yet for the concept that we're talking about, it doesn't mean that we can't be great allies.
Jerrin Padre 15:11
Right.
Haley Moss 15:11
It doesn't mean that we aren't capable of understanding or practicing something. Just because we don't know the theory of it, or we don't know the words, doesn't mean that we can't do it.
Jerrin Padre 15:19
Yeah.
Haley Moss 15:19
So you don't have to be an expert on neurodiversity, or even know what that means, to be accepting to people who are different than you.
Jerrin Padre 15:24
Yeah, that's such a great point. I feel like—something we've talked about frequently throughout this season is the roadblocks for people to embrace their allyship journey. And, you know, something that comes up frequently is just not having the vocabulary. Not wanting to make a mistake, and feeling like they have to have all their ducks in a row before they embark on this journey.
Mike Cole 15:46
Yeah, we've discussed a lot about that. I mean, that's the biggest hurdle to overcome is feeling like, "I don't want to say something wrong. I don't want to say the wrong thing."
Jerrin + Haley 15:54
Mhmm!
Mike Cole 15:54
Whereas—that's the wrong way to think about it. Because that's how you learn, right? You apologize, you learn from it, and you move on.
Haley Moss 16:02
Absolutely. And we all mess up. So even in the broader conversation of ableism, even just the way that we talk, sometimes. I know I mess up too. It's not—we're not all perfect. And sometimes it's okay when someone calls you in. And it's not that you're being called out, being shamed. It's an opportunity, it's a teachable moment. We learn, we apologize, we do better going forward.
Jerrin Padre 16:20
I love that term. I've never heard that before. "Called in," versus "called out." I like that a lot.
Haley Moss 16:26
Exactly. I think that people always see it as being called out like, "Oh, I did something shameful. Hang my head in shame. I screwed up." I think it is a perspective. Like I know a lot of folks have misgendered people before, and instead of just be like, "Oh my god, you're a terrible person. You screwed up." "Thank you for pointing that out. I will make sure I use the correct pronouns for that person going forward." Or that I will be cognizant to ask what someone's pronouns are. Like, it's a teachable moment.
Jerrin Padre 16:48
Yeah, like accountability versus accusing others.
Haley Moss 16:51
Exactly. Mhmm!
Jerrin Padre 16:52
Yeah.
Haley Moss 16:52
And it's okay if you don't get it right the first time. It's not that you're intentionally trying to target people, or do the wrong thing. It takes practice. Inclusion is a practice. It's a mindset and a practice.
Mike Cole 17:04
Yeah, we talk about inclusion as being a journey. It's a marathon, not a race.
Haley Moss 17:09
Exactly.
Mike Cole 17:10
You mentioned ableism. Talk a little bit more about ableism, and its impact in the workplace.
Haley Moss 17:16
So ableism, more broadly, is a set of prejudices, stereotypes, and beliefs that are often negative against disabled people, or people with disabilities, depending on the language that you choose to use. So ableism is really complicated to unpack, since there's so many different types of it. There's things that might be outward—like maybe you don't have a ramp or something that might be obvious. That there are barriers. And there's internalized ableism—that, as disabled people, we begin to believe the different stereotypes and messaging surrounding our own disability. So, as someone with executive functioning issues, and who learns a little bit differently, I had a time in law school—going through law school—where I thought I was just lazy and stupid, because I learned differently than my peers. That I wasn't able to do things at the exact same pace, in the exact same way. And you're told you're lazy and stupid, and you believe you're lazy and stupid—not because people are saying that about you, because that's the messaging surrounding people with your types of disabilities. And that's something that I think a lot of disabled people have to work through, and especially at work because you're told, like, "Oh, you're unable to do this. You're slow. You're not productive," or whatever. And you begin to believe that.
And then there's just people who think that they're being helpful when you did not want or need help. And that's a whole other type of things to unpack. That even just the system of how we speak sometimes, and the language that we use, we can be doing ableist things—even though we don't mean to—that we can end up being harmful to people with disabilities. Think of even how language evolves over time. We don't use the r-word anymore. When I was growing up, plenty of people use the r-word. And now it's not present in any federal legislation. That, actually, was phased out in 2010. Fun little fact for you, that, anywhere that the word "retarded" appeared in federal law, it's now been replaced with "intellectual disability" or "intellectual disabilities." So language changes. And obviously people think of that as your, kind of, obvious ableist slur. But there's all sorts of other words that we use all the time that can be harmful to people with different psychiatric and mental disabilities as well. So it was just really fascinating to see this kind of evolution over time. And even just the way that society does create additional barriers for people with disabilities. And that is, unfortunately, ableism. It's stressful. And the working world really does favor neurotypical, able-bodied people.
Jerrin Padre 19:32
Yeah. And I think, unlike a lot of the other "-isms" that we've talked about on this podcast, ableism deals with a lot of invisible situations. So...
Haley Moss 19:41
Exactly!
Jerrin Padre 19:42
... it can't be seen. Sometimes it can't be heard. It can't be detected by any of our five senses. So it's a little harder for people to conceptualize.
Haley Moss 19:52
Absolutely. And maybe it is sometimes in the language user. It's as obvious as not having an interpreter, or a ramp, or something like that. Sometimes it can be super obvious that there are barriers that we're placing in somebody's way. But I think, for me, the most subtle form of ableism that I've ever experienced really is that benevolent ableism thing. And that's when—basically, like, people will try to help you, but at the same time it's without your consent. So it's help that you don't want, and it's help that you don't need. So this would happen a lot in social situations for me. Imagine all of your friends are going out to a restaurant, and they're—but let's just say they're going out for pizza. And you really don't like pizza, or you can't eat pizza because you have an allergy—whatever it might be. So instead of suggesting a different restaurant, or telling you to eat beforehand, or bring your own food, they just don't invite you to get pizza with them. And you're the only one in the group who doesn't get invited, out of all your friends. And when you call them out on and say, "Hey, I would have loved to have gone to the pizza place. Why didn't you invite me to go?" "Oh, well, we know that you're allergic to gluten, you're allergic to cheese, or you just really don't like pizza, so we didn't bother inviting you." And that's not something I wanted nor needed. But they thought they knew what was best for me in that situation.
And at the same time, I probably—in that situation, you probably would have still gone to the pizza place even if you didn't eat pizza. Maybe they had a gluten-free pizza. Maybe you would have eaten a snack before you went. Maybe you would have just gotten and had a glass of wine with the group. I don't know. But there's so many different ways that you could have still been included. And instead of actually including you, they took that opportunity away. So that's kind of the easiest illustration of benevolent ableism that I'm able to give, but it's the thing that people do the most. So imagine how many times we've tried to help people with wheelchairs, and they'll be the first ones to be like, "No, no, no, I got it down pat." "No, let me get this for you." "I got it, trust me. I've been in this body longer than you have." And when people tell you that they don't need help, or they don't want it, you gotta trust them. Unless they're in very obvious crisis or distress—which I think is kind of when all that goes out the window. Sometimes it's even to say that someone's inspirational for living their daily lives. There's so many things that we experience that are either signs of subtle ableism, or microaggressions. It's just wild the kinds of stuff that people with disabilities see just by existing?
Jerrin Padre 22:08
Yeah, yeah. What are some of the most cringy ableist comments people have made to you? Like you mentioned some of the subtle ones, but, like, what are some of, like, the more cringy moments?
Haley Moss 22:19
Being called brave is kind of one of the big ones. The thing is, with most of these, they come from a good place, which means I'm not allowed to get too upset about it. Oftentimes, you have to sit there and take it, and say thank you. And often that's how I feel when people tell me I'm brave, or that I'm inspiring. And I feel very weird about those things because they're not things you would usually say to anybody else. I exist in the brain and body that I've been given. I don't know any different. And I'm not brave. I'm scared of snakes. I live in Florida. I'm scared of alligators.
Jerrin Padre 22:19
*laughing*
Haley Moss 22:20
I'm scared of—I see a spider and I want to scream. I'm not brave. I am a scaredy cat. Calling me brave for existing the only way I know how to is not really bravery. It's just existing. And oftentimes we get called inspirational, but for doing regular people things. So it's not inspiring that—when people with disabilities are in wheelchairs—that you're like, "I could never imagine being you or living like that." It's so weird!
Jerrin Padre 23:15
Yeah.
Haley Moss 23:15
Like, someone's just trying to get around, and live their life, and go about their day. And you're like, "Wow, this person is so inspiring. They're, like, out in public." No, they're just doing the best that they can, just like anybody else. They want to go to the grocery store, or the mall, or wherever you are just like you are, and just minding their business. Like, it's kind of wild to think about the extent of how we do these things. Because it's not that we're bad people for saying someone's brave, or inspiring, or anything. It's just what we're told about disability. We are so blind, essentially, that this disability is the most tragic, worst thing that can ever happen to you. That it's the worst fate you can have that's up there with death, pretty much. And the thing about disability that I always remind people—and this includes neurodiversity—it's the only minority group that you can join at any time in your life, and especially if you're so fortunate to live for a long time. So think about when we talk about old people. And we talk about people who eventually acquire things like dementia or Alzheimer's. That's acquired neurodivergence, and even people who end up with terminal illnesses, and things like cancer, heart disease, etc. Those are all disabilities. That disability is something that touches all of us, if we are fortunate enough to live for a long time. It's the only minority that you can join at any time in your life, no matter who you are. And for people who acquire disability—I think it's very different than if you're born with a disability. Because you still have that grief you have—you know what life was like before this, but it's, again, something that can happen to you. And it doesn't mean that your life is absolutely horrible. And we're told to feel sorry for people with disabilities, but really, for a lot of us, it's the only thing we know and we're out here. We're thriving, and a lot of us are proud to have "disabled" and "neurodivergent" as part of our identities. And something people say a lot, on this topic as well, is "don't let disability define you." And I think that's really interesting because, in many ways, it's part of my identity, and it does define me. I mean, it's not all that I am, but it's a huge part of who I am. I don't know what it's like to see the world through a neurotypical lens. I don't know what it's like not to struggle with some of the things that I struggle with. And it's just as much part of who I am, as much as being a woman is, or my faith background, or any of that stuff—that it's something I would use to describe myself. It's definitely part of who I am, and I'm not ashamed of that. Think about, even, little kids. We tell them, "Don't stare." "Don't ask questions."
Jerrin Padre 25:31
Or, "Speak up." Or, "Do things faster. Don't be lazy." Kind of circling back to what you were saying earlier, just all of the messaging that people don't even think twice about; either the origin, or why, maybe, they're saying it. Why those things would be negative in the first place, too. Yeah.
Haley Moss 25:47
Like the big one that I've been trying to unlearn more often, at least at this point in my life, is the word "crazy." So "crazy" is one of those things that is—can be pretty damaging to our friends who have mental illnesses, or mental health disabilities. And something I've been trying to do is find good alternatives in my vocabulary, because I don't want to inadvertently harm my friends. And also, because I don't mean to use something that's been used against them as kind of a slur. Same with other words that we hear on sitcoms, usually describing people with intellectual disabilities like "morons," and "idiots," and things like that. So I'm always trying to find different words to say what I think those words mean, because it's subtle ableism that's really baked into our culture. So instead of saying "crazy," I might go, "That's ridiculous." Or, "That's wild." Or, "That's whoa."
Jerrin Padre 26:33
That's woah?
Haley Moss 26:33
I will find...
Jerrin Padre 26:34
That's a good one!
Haley Moss 26:35
I will find something else. And sometimes I just do a "woah," or a "yikes," because I just can't think of a good word. But it's trying to avoid saying something that might be damaging instead. It's something that I'm not perfect on, and it's something that I've been actively trying to do better about. And that's why I bring that up a lot, because when we say that this is often harder, this is something new for a lot of people—we're all still learning. It's not just you. And that being a disabled or neurodivergent person doesn't mean you still can't be ableist in some way, shape, or form. So we're all learning and unlearning together.
Jerrin Padre 27:06
Agreed.
Mike Cole 27:06
So having said that, what are some things that people can do today? I mean, you just said, "We are all in this together." And I completely agree. It's definitely a learning experience. So tell us a few things that people can do today to start.
Haley Moss 27:21
Well, you already did something good today. You made it this far in listening to us here on Peoplecast. So you learned something today, go you! Thank you for taking the time to listen to us. That was a great start. We did something big, we talked about hard things together. So don't think that you didn't walk away, and you can't do anything. Because even though you might not think you did, you did something. And I'm proud of you for that. Let's just start there. And something you can do, as well as—other than just try to be more mindful and empathetic of where people are coming from—you can continue to seek out information. I think the best thing—places to learn are from disabled creators, advocates, and experts because this is our life. And some of us actually know stuff about it, not because of lived experience. So that's the really cool thing about my job is I actually know a lot from personal experience. And I know a lot from my professional background. So I can geek out about disability policy, and the Americans with Disabilities Act, and compliance because I'm an attorney as well, on top of the fact that I've lived through some of this stuff, because it's been my personal experience.
So whatever field you're in, you probably have disabled experts who have lived experience, as well as professional experience. Please make friends with them. They do great work. And there's all sorts of cool places to learn information from. So even if you're someone who spends all day on social media, there's so many great creators that you can learn from. There's so many different books, and there's so many different resources. You can be here all—I could be listing things all day long, if you want to keep learning more. But I think in practice, even just being mindful or, for managers, asking a broad question like, "How can I support you?" Just really trying to take that extra moment to be empathetic is probably the most actionable thing you could do right now. Other than just keep educating yourself on this topic. And of course, accepting people for who they are. Even when—Mike you were talking about your grandchild. I was like, "Wow, yeah, that's accepting." It's just understanding, and realizing that they're not broken, or doing something harmful. And we're talking pre-show about stimming. So, like, self-regulating movements. So people who, like, twirl their hair, flap their hands, click pens, whatever it might be—that we're doing these types of behaviors to feel calm, or joy, or regulated, whatever it may be. It's just seeing that as something that's not a bad thing. And that's a very easy, doable step to take. As long as they're not hurting you, and you're not hurting them then—okay. Cool.
Mike Cole 29:37
You mentioned stimming, and how we all do it. I mean, we were talking—like you said, pre-show. We all do it. I drum my fingers constantly, and my wife is looking at me, you know, "Don't do that." Or, you know, I pop my knuckles or I—you know, we do those things. And yeah, I think it's...
Jerrin Padre 29:54
For our listeners who don't know what stimming is...
Mike Cole 29:57
Oh good, yeah.
Jerrin Padre 29:58
... could we give them a quick rundown?
Mike Cole 30:00
Haley?
Haley Moss 30:02
*laughing*
So—without actually doing it—it's all these types of self regulatory behaviors that we do in order to feel calm, or maintain our attention. So things like when we twirl our hair, or we flap our hands, or we drum our fingers like Mike does, or you wiggle your toes when you're sitting down and talking to people—that a lot of people think they're distracting, that you're not paying attention. It's unprofessional. But sometimes it might be the only way you're able to regulate your attention, or focus, or that you express joy. Or that your body just moves and exist throughout the world. I think that's kind of a long-winded, more creative definition. But I'm sure there's a better one out there.
Mike Cole 30:39
No, no, I like that one. That one was good. And it's—I think it's when it becomes socially unacceptable is when it's out of place, right? You know, if you're flapping your hands or...
Haley Moss 30:52
If you're biting—if you're hurting people, just don't hurt people.
Mike Cole 30:55
Yeah.
Haley Moss 30:55
Don't hurt yourself. So my hands flap when I get really, really excited. And that is a full-body joy that I only wish neurotypical people can feel. Like, don't shame me for that. It is the best feeling in the world when my hands are moving like that. Like I get flappy-happy.
Jerrin Padre 31:09
*laughing*
Mike Cole 31:10
Oh, that's our granddaughter. That's her main stimming responses is, as we call it, "flappy arms." I mean, that's what she does to express excitement. And you can tell you can, you know...
Haley Moss 31:20
Exactly! It's a full body joy.
Mike Cole 31:22
Yeah. For somebody who doesn't know, that might be a little alarming at first. But once you understand that that's what that is, you truly—that light bulb goes off, and you can see, "Okay, she is happy." If you give her something...
Haley Moss 31:34
Exactly.
Mike Cole 31:34
... you give her a present—that's the first thing that's going to happen is flappy arms. So...
Haley Moss 31:39
Exactly. And she's not hurting anybody around her.
Mike Cole 31:42
No, that's just her response. That's how she does it.
Haley Moss 31:45
Mhmm.
Mike Cole 31:45
I could talk about that all day. Because it's my grandkids.
Haley Moss 31:48
Me too.
Jerrin Padre 31:49
Of course!
Mike Cole 31:50
Yeah. Alright, so you mentioned resources. Before we get to books or things like that, what communities can people be involved with to kind of help them learn more?
Haley Moss 31:58
Oh my gosh. So if you're at a big company—if you have an employee resource group for mental health disability, or neurodiversity, that might be a very cool resource for you. If you are not in a big workplace, there's all sorts of communities out there, and nonprofits, probably wherever you live, that are doing something in this space. So whether it's an autism group, or someone else, that—it's really important. I think the best groups are led by people with lived experience. So I hate to give out individual recommendations, for the most part, because no organization is perfect. But the ones in your local communities do so much good, because without them, you would know if they didn't exist. So that's a great place.
If you are someone who wants something bigger, or you want to feel less alone, there's a lot of very wonderful things on social media, as well. So if you want to learn more about autism, or other neurodiversity, some really cool hashtags to learn from—straight-from-the-source-type thing is #actuallyautistic and #neurodiversesquad. So #neurodiversesquad covers a whole swath of different people. So people with ADHD, learning disabilities, autism, etc. But I just think there's so many different internet-based communities that you can learn from, whether it's on Twitter, whether it's on Facebook, whether it's on Instagram. I think that is kind of the beautiful thing about disability communities. We've all managed to find each other and carve out our own little niches of society, and the internet to find each other. But I think that's a pretty great place to start. There's so many things that are free resources in your community, and online, that you can learn from.
Mike Cole 33:30
Cool. So give me some book recommendations, coming from the author.
Haley Moss 33:35
*chuckles*
"Coming from the author." So if you are in law practice, if you are an HR professional, or you just love people who are neurodivergent and want to learn more about supporting us as adults in the workplace, or something else, what's really, really something that I want to recommend is my newest book that just came out very recently. It's Great Minds Think Differently: Neurodiversity for Lawyers and Other Professionals. I promise, it's not just for lawyers. It's not just a law book. It's super readable. My mom is not a lawyer. My mom went to dental school for, like—and then she had to drop out because of an accident. And she said it was super readable, and easy to understand. And no one in my family, except for a great uncle, is a lawyer. So I promise that, even though it is published by the American Bar Association—which is, like, the leading organization for lawyers in this country—I promise it is not legalese. You will be able to understand it, and you'll be able to learn more about inclusion, workplace practices, disclosure, maybe a little bit about law school, if that's kind of your thing, and a little bit about public policy, if that's also kind of your thing. I'm really, really excited about it. And I can talk about that book all day long because it is my new child, and pride and joy.
Some other really cool things that I am working on, and have written, is—coming in November, I have the Young Autistic Adult's Independence Handbook. So, basically, for our young people who are transitioning to maybe their first job, or thinking about going to college, or living away from home, or whatever that big life thing is. When you're entering your late teens/early 20's, I got you covered with plenty of neurodivergent-friendly advice, and some help from some experts who are both either very smart people, or who are also neurodivergent, or both. So I've got you covered there. And my other two books are on middle school and college, which probably is not so much the current audience. But if you want to learn more about that, or other stuff that I've written, feel free to look me up or visit my website at haleymoss.net. Or you can just follow me on social media and we can all learn together.
Mike Cole 35:30
Well, Haley, I do want to thank you. Jerrin, as well. I know speak for her, because we have really enjoyed this conversation—specifically around neurodiversity—and a lot of things to unpack. And, as you said, we could continue on. We could probably do an entire season just around neurodiversity. But, I think the things you've touched on—I don't think, I know the things you've touched on will definitely give our listeners some things to do, and some things to move forward with. So thank you again for being on the show. And thank you folks for listening to Peoplecast. We'll see you next time. Something just fell off of my shelf.
Jerrin Padre 36:06
Oh no!
Mike Cole 36:06
It made the loudest noise—I don't know if you could hear it.
Jerrin Padre 36:08
We'll keep it in. It was charming.
Mike Cole 36:11
It was this guy right here.
Jerrin Padre 36:13
He's holding up a skeleton.
Mike Cole 36:15
Yeah.
Haley Moss 36:15
There he is.
Mike Cole 36:16
Yeah!
Haley Moss 36:17
Nice and spooky. I like it.
Mike Cole 36:19
Okay, well, hopefully I maintained composure during that. So, anyway, we'll leave it in. It's good. It's good stuff.