Organizational Culture Consultant, Leadership Coach, Customer Experience Strategist, and Community Builder, Jennie Sze’s mission is to create happier places for people to work. In this episode, Jennie breaks down mindfulness and its significance in her DEIB journey.
Mindfulness Resources:
More about Jennie:
Jennie is a former engagement manager at Disney Institute, program manager at Starbucks, and management consultant at the Boston Consulting Group. She has 15+ years of experience in delivering strategic engagements in the employee experience space for Fortune 500 companies across retail, finance, and technology industries. Jennie currently serves as a consultant, facilitator, and leadership coach leading employee engagement and talent initiatives focused on organizational culture change, diversity and inclusion, talent strategy, team effectiveness, and leadership development. Her passion is to help leaders create employee and customer-centric cultures that foster innovation and brand loyalty. Jennie holds an MBA from the Wharton School of Business and a BA in Business Economics from the University of California, Los Angeles.
Organizational Culture Consultant, Leadership Coach, Customer Experience Strategist, and Community Builder, Jennie Sze’s mission is to create happier places for people to work. In this episode, Jennie breaks down mindfulness and its significance in her DEIB journey.
Mindfulness Resources:
More about Jennie:
Jennie is a former engagement manager at Disney Institute, program manager at Starbucks, and management consultant at the Boston Consulting Group. She has 15+ years of experience in delivering strategic engagements in the employee experience space for Fortune 500 companies across retail, finance, and technology industries. Jennie currently serves as a consultant, facilitator, and leadership coach leading employee engagement and talent initiatives focused on organizational culture change, diversity and inclusion, talent strategy, team effectiveness, and leadership development. Her passion is to help leaders create employee and customer-centric cultures that foster innovation and brand loyalty. Jennie holds an MBA from the Wharton School of Business and a BA in Business Economics from the University of California, Los Angeles.
Mike Cole 0:06
Hello everybody and welcome to Peoplecast. My name is Mike Cole. I'm your host, and with me today is our producer extraordinaire Jerrin Padre.
Jerrin Padre 0:15
Hello.
Mike Cole 0:20
*chuckling*
That's your standard.
Jerrin Padre 0:20
It's back! It is the standard. I'm bringing it back. I am not feeling original today.
Mike Cole 0:24
Oh, you know—it's been a long day. It really has.
Jerrin Padre 0:28
Yeah. Yes it has.
Mike Cole 0:30
What's the weather there in LA?
Jerrin Padre 0:30
What's been going on for you, Mike?
Hmm?
Mike Cole 0:33
Oh, I was asking you what the weather was there in LA. We talk about that every episode.
Jerrin Padre 0:37
I know. But we just—I feel like we just talked about that. Let's talk about something else. What's been going on today, Mike?
Mike Cole 0:44
Oh, okay. Well...
Jerrin Padre 0:45
Why is it been such a long day?
Mike Cole 0:47
Well, I went and got an oil change in my truck. That was fun.
Jerrin Padre 0:50
Nice.
Mike Cole 0:51
Took a while. You know, when you're trying to fit oil changes in between meetings and Zoom calls. And you, you know—you're sitting in the oil change place, and you're like, "Oh, I've got 10 minutes to make it to this call." Then, of course, the person, aka Jerrin, who you're on the call with next says, "Hey, I'm running about 10 minutes late." I'm like, "Great! I have time to get home." So I rush back home...
Jerrin Padre 1:11
Synergy!
Mike Cole 1:11
... to take call. Yeah! Took the call, and then took another call. And then I had to go get shocks put on my truck, because, you know, the ride is pretty rough. And so I was in the shock place getting that done looking at my watch, knowing that we had this call here in about 20 minutes. And they finished up, and I rushed home and got in the chair at about a minute 'till—so, for me, that's why it's been a long day is it's been trying to beat the clock, I guess.
Jerrin Padre 1:37
Yeah.
Mike Cole 1:38
What about for you?
Jerrin Padre 1:39
Lots of tasks.
Mike Cole 1:40
Yeah.
Jerrin Padre 1:41
Um, I don't know. I feel like it's just one of those days. I just feel grumpy.
Mike Cole 1:46
Hmm.
Jerrin Padre 1:47
For no apparent reason. It might be the heat. But I said that I wouldn't talk about the weather, so I'm not going to. But I do think that that might have something to do with it. I think earlier, too, you were saying that you haven't eaten all day. That also might be a factor.
Mike Cole 2:03
Yeah, it's—I did. I take that back. I did have lunch. I had a hot dog for lunch.
Jerrin Padre 2:08
Oh. See, you were doing so many things today...
Mike Cole 2:11
I know!
Jerrin Padre 2:11
... that you forgot that you had lunch.
Mike Cole 2:13
But, you know, now it's dinner time and I'm hungry. So...
Jerrin Padre 2:16
Alright, I guess we'll wrap this up quickly, then.
*chuckling*
Mike Cole 2:21
I'm hangry. I was hangry yesterday, I'm hangry today, so...
Jerrin Padre 2:24
Oh, boy.
Mike Cole 2:25
Cool! Well, I think our guest today is going to help us with some of that.
Jerrin Padre 2:29
I hope so!
Mike Cole 2:30
Yeah, our episode today is on mindfulness. Correct?
Jerrin Padre 2:35
Yeah.
Mike Cole 2:36
Being mindful.
Jerrin Padre 2:37
Yes!
Mike Cole 2:37
Yeah, it is. I'm sorry, I'm looking at the runsheet.
Jerrin Padre 2:39
I just spaced out. *laughing*
Mike Cole 2:40
I did too! It is mindfulness. It's what we're talking about today. And our guest today is Jennie Sze. Jennie—just a few of her accomplishments. She is an Organizational Culture Consultant. She's a leadership coach; customer experience strategist; community builder; and a former Disney employee that—I find very fascinating, anytime I hear her talk about that. I think she's gonna help us with our weird frame of mind that we're in right now. That's probably the strangest start to an episode I think we've had so far.
Jerrin Padre 3:15
It's okay. That's where we're at.
Mike Cole 3:16
I know. I know. Let's welcome Jennie Sze. Welcome, Jennie. How are you today?
Jennie Sze 3:21
Hello, everyone.
Jerrin Padre 3:23
Hi!
Jennie Sze 3:23
So glad to be here.
Mike Cole 3:24
Were you getting bored listening to our banter?
Jennie Sze 3:27
I was smiling.
Mike Cole 3:29
Oh!
Jennie Sze 3:29
With my eyes closed, just listening to the two of you.
Jerrin Padre 3:32
That sounds like Jennie.
Mike Cole 3:34
Yeah, it does.
Jennie Sze 3:35
I had concern. I'm like, "Hot dog? Aww!"
Jerrin Padre 3:39
She was concerned about the hot dog. Not the grumpiness, not the busyness. She was like, "Oh, no. He forgot that he ate a hot dog."
Mike Cole 3:47
Yeah.
Jennie Sze 3:49
*laughing*
It's about taking care of yourself. And, yeah, I was just smiling because it's like, "Oh, both of you need some self care." Hot dog is the fastest food to make.
Mike Cole 4:01
Oh boy it is. Super healthy, too. I mean, it's incredibly healthy! I'm sure it has all of the vitamins and minerals you need for the daily allowance. But—so Jennie, we're gonna get into some questions about you, your background, and—you know, we have a list of questions to ask, but we normally kick the episodes off with a game. Are you up for a game?
Jennie Sze 4:26
Yes.
Mike Cole 4:27
Alright is this is called This or That? I'm gonna read some quick—just quick questions, probably about 10 or 12 of them. And some of them may be one word answers. Some of them might require some discussion or clarification, or defending your position because we are very close to some of them. And it would determine if your episode continues or not based on how you answer so...
Jennie Sze 4:49
*laughing* Okay!
Jerrin Padre 4:50
Yeah, "We're really judgy" is what he's trying to say.
Mike Cole 4:53
Yes. Very judgy.
Jerrin Padre 4:54
Yeah.
Mike Cole 4:54
And I actually—I'm gonna go ahead and lead off with that one so we can get it out of the way. And let's see if we, you know, can get somebody else on our side. Okay, so you're ready, Jennie?
Jennie Sze 5:04
Yeah.
Mike Cole 5:05
Here we go. Star Trek or Star Wars?
Jennie Sze 5:08
Star Wars.
Mike Cole 5:10
Yes!
Jerrin Padre 5:11
Yahoo!
Mike Cole 5:12
Finally. Oh my goodness.
Jerrin Padre 5:15
*victorious noises*
Mike Cole 5:17
It's—wait, where's it at? Hang on. *applause sound effect*
Jerrin Padre 5:22
There we go.
Mike Cole 5:24
Yep. Jennie, the reason we're so happy is, I think, all of our other guests—were they Star Trek?
Jerrin Padre 5:29
Almost all of them.
Mike Cole 5:30
Almost all.
Jerrin Padre 5:30
I think, save two of our...
Mike Cole 5:32
I think so.
Jerrin Padre 5:33
... six guests thus far. Yeah. They've all been...
Mike Cole 5:36
Star Trek.
Jerrin Padre 5:37
They've all been Star Trek.
Jennie Sze 5:38
Well, Star Wars is now Disney, so...
Mike Cole 5:41
Ah, there's the Disney tie-in. Okay Jennie. Next question, favorite holiday?
Jennie Sze 5:47
Thanksgiving.
Mike Cole 5:48
Mmm!
Jerrin Padre 5:49
That's a great one.
Mike Cole 5:50
Lots of hot dogs on Thanksgiving.
Jennie Sze 5:52
*laughing*
Mike Cole 5:54
Or turkey, whatever you prefer.
Jennie Sze 5:54
Actually, it's also friendsgiving.
Mike Cole 5:55
Ah! I do like friendsgiving, yes! Do you like doing potlucks?
Jennie Sze 6:02
Yeah, I do. I'm like you. I also enjoy cooking for everybody. So I either cook for everyone or everyone brings a dish.
Mike Cole 6:12
And I only asked that because I had a co worker—they would not participate in potlucks. They wouldn't eat any of the food that anybody brought to a potluck because they were concerned about how it was prepared.
Jerrin + Jennie 6:22
Hmm!
Jennie Sze 6:23
It was prepared with love.
Mike Cole 6:24
Exactly. I mean, come on! I just—you know, potlucks are—it's a thing. For me, it's a cultural thing. I grew up with, you know, people bringing food over to the house when they came over. And that's—you eat the food and I was taught (that) you eat what's put in front of you. You don't turn it away. So yeah, okay. Well, interesting. That's—yeah. What about you, Jerrin? You a potluck fan?
Jerrin Padre 6:45
Oh, yeah. I'm Filipino! Of course!
Mike Cole 6:48
Okay!
Jerrin Padre 6:49
That's our love language!
Mike Cole 6:50
I wasn't gonna throw any stereotype in there. So...
Jerrin Padre 6:53
I know.
Mike Cole 6:53
But you said it, I didn't.
Jerrin Padre 6:54
But I feel like we're at that point, Mike. I feel like you can just throw those stereotypes at me.
Mike Cole 6:59
Okay, okay.
Jerrin Padre 7:00
Right?
Mike Cole 7:00
I could. I'm still getting there. But I'm glad you gave me permission to throw a couple of stereotypes at you. And I'll do that in future episodes, so...
Jerrin Padre 7:09
Okay, great.
Mike Cole 7:10
Okay, good.
Jerrin Padre 7:10
No, I need it. It'll keep me grounded
Mike Cole 7:13
Feel free to throw any, you know, Southern Mississippi, extreme deep south stereotypes my way as well. I can take it. I have thick skin.
Jerrin Padre 7:23
Okay, great.
Mike Cole 7:24
Okay, good. Jennie. Next question. *laughing*
Jennie Sze 7:28
*laughing*
Mike Cole 7:28
Next question, Jennie. Invisibility or super strength?
Jennie Sze 7:32
Invisibility.
Mike Cole 7:33
Hmm. Why is that?
Jennie Sze 7:35
Well, there's a saying in the Tao Te Ching that the best kind of leader is not the one who is the most powerful, or even the one who's most loved, but the one who is invisible. Really supporting behind the scenes, people don't even know they're there. So that's why I chose that.
Mike Cole 7:59
Wow, okay. That's probably the deepest answer, I think, we've ever gotten on This or That. I really liked that.
Jerrin Padre 8:06
And also the most calming.
Mike Cole 8:08
Mhmm!
Jerrin Padre 8:08
My goodness.
Mike Cole 8:09
Yeah. A few more questions, and then we're gonna get into the content of this episode. But I do have to know: Ariel or Jasmine?
Jennie Sze 8:16
Ariel.
Mike Cole 8:18
Alright, here's another food-related question. Is double dipping at a party ever acceptable?
Jennie Sze 8:23
Yes. *laughing*
Mike Cole 8:25
Wow!
Jennie Sze 8:25
People should just do what they want, whenever they want.
Jerrin Padre 8:28
I agree!
Mike Cole 8:30
Okay, I feel judged if I even break my chip in half, and dip half of it, and then dip the other half because people think, "It's the same chip!"
Jerrin Padre 8:37
But you're not touching—it's not double dipping, though. I feel like we got to get clear on the definition of double dipping, folks.
Mike Cole 8:44
Okay.
Jennie Sze 8:44
Double dipping is when you have something that you're dipping—let's say a chip—you dip it into a sauce, and then you take a bite. And then with that same edge that touched your mouth, you then dip again—that's double dipping. I feel like if it touches your mouth, that's the qualifier, right?
Mike Cole 9:01
I completely agree. Yes. I think Mythbusters did an episode on the amount of saliva and germs that were transferred to a chip through double dipping, and it was astounding at the bacteria that was on the chip before it was dipped. So...
Jerrin Padre 9:14
Yeah.
Mike Cole 9:15
There you go.
Jerrin Padre 9:15
I mean, the human mouth is a disgusting place, to quote Finding Nemo.
Mike Cole 9:20
Yep. Yes, it is. Okay, Jennie, another question. You ready?
Jennie Sze 9:25
Yeah.
Mike Cole 9:25
What's your favorite car?
Jennie Sze 9:27
Oh, I don't know that I have a favorite car. But recently, I've been hoping for a recreation vehicle—not to own but just to have that experience to go around different cities.
Mike Cole 9:41
Oh, like an RV.
Jennie Sze 9:43
Like a small van, where you could sleep on it, cook in it.
Mike Cole 9:46
Like a Volkswagen Westfalia or something like that are in this really cool Mercedes...
Jerrin Padre 9:52
A Sprinter.
Mike Cole 9:52
Yeah. A Mercedes Sprinter. Those are so nice. Yep!
Jerrin Padre 9:56
Mhmm.
Mike Cole 9:56
That's cool. All right. Next question. How many cups of coffee do you drink per day?
Jennie Sze 10:00
Zero *laughing*
Mike Cole 10:03
You're a non-coffee-drinker, huh?
Jennie Sze 10:04
Yeah, I'm a tea drinker.
Jerrin Padre 10:06
Me too.
Jennie Sze 10:07
It's very American: coffee. It's very American.
Mike Cole 10:11
Yeah, that's—my granddad, my Papa Murphy, taught me to drink black coffee at a very young age. At about eight years old was when he gave me my first cup of coffee.
Jerrin Padre 10:20
So does caffeine still affect you?
Mike Cole 10:23
No! Caffeine does not.
Jerrin Padre 10:24
Wow, you're so lucky!
Mike Cole 10:25
I have—if you could develop an immunity to anything, I have developed an immunity to caffeine. The only thing I haven't developed an immunity to are things like Red Bull, Monster Energy. Anything with like ephedrine, or those artificial stimulants. Those put me over the edge. I can't do those. Alright, last question. Jennie, would you rather come face-to-face with a miniature hippopotamus, or a giant cockroach? Both are in a bad mood.
Jennie Sze 10:53
Oh no! *laughing* What does that mean? Poppa—I can't even pronounce that.
Mike Cole 11:00
Miniature hippopotamus or a giant cockroach.
Jennie Sze 11:03
Hippo.
Mike Cole 11:03
And they're both not very happy.
Jennie Sze 11:06
Miniature hippo—it's so cute! No?
Mike Cole 11:10
To me...
Jennie Sze 11:10
Who would choose a giant cockroach?
Mike Cole 11:13
It depends on... *chuckling*
Jennie Sze 11:14
Maybe some people like cockroaches.
Mike Cole 11:15
Maybe. I don't know.
Jennie Sze 11:16
Maybe some people do.
Mike Cole 11:17
It depends on your definition of miniature, I guess.
Jennie Sze 11:20
Yeah.
Mike Cole 11:20
In your mind, you can make them as big as you want. You can make them palm-sized and probably be able to handle them.
Jerrin Padre 11:25
So with this question, is it like an adult hippopotamus, but just in miniature form? So like they've come to fully develop the aggressions than an adult hippopotamus would have? And then that's what's in this miniature hippopotamus, or are we talking about like a baby hippopotamus?
Mike Cole 11:43
So maybe we should alter the question, then, if we use this question in the future: it's (a) miniature adult hippopotamus with all aggressions formed.
Jerrin Padre 11:52
Yeah.
Mike Cole 11:52
Not a tiny, sweet, baby hippopotamus that you want to pet and cuddle, and name Dorthy.
Jerrin Padre 11:57
Because we could condition the baby hippopotamus—especially if it's miniature—to like, you know, not be so aggressive, right?
Mike Cole 12:06
Well, you can't teach a cockroach anything, so...
Jerrin Padre 12:09
No.
Mike Cole 12:09
At least I've never tried. I don't know. Can you? Maybe?
Jerrin Padre 12:13
I don't know. Maybe we will have to get that person on the podcast.
Editor's notes 12:16
(Actually, you can train a cockroach! Some universities have studied that very thing. Fun fact: cockroaches are much better learners at night.)
Mike Cole 12:16
Maybe so.
Jerrin Padre 12:16
If anybody has trained a cockroach...
Mike Cole 12:19
The entomologist expert that can help us with cockroaches.
Jerrin Padre 12:22
And how it relates to the workplace.
Mike Cole 12:24
And inclusivity and belonging. Yep.
Jerrin Padre 12:26
Yes.
Mike Cole 12:27
Yes. Okay. Well, Jennie, that was This or That. You did a stellar job.
Jennie Sze 12:33
*laughing* Okay!
Mike Cole 12:34
You survived! You're still on the episode, so you passed.
Jennie Sze 12:37
I am sensing there is a different, unspoken test underneath the surface of the "This or That."
Mike Cole 12:47
Oh, I mean...
Jerrin Padre 12:48
Ding, ding, ding!
Mike Cole 12:49
I like This or That because we have fun, and we get to learn a little bit about you.
But I want to get into this thing about mindfulness. And it's no secret, Jerrin and I have—we have sat in sessions that you've done. And you have this ability to have this—just a calming effect to center people. And we really want to talk about that today. Because I think in the climate that we're in, and just the frenzied activities, and just all of the things that are going on. You mentioned earlier about self-care. I really want you to be able to talk a lot about that. So I do want to start, though. Where did you grow up? Give us the history of Jennie in 45 seconds.
Jennie Sze 13:31
I was born in Singapore. And when I was a baby, I was quickly brought to Hong Kong. So I pretty much spent my childhood days in Hong Kong up till I was 10. And then when I was 10/11, I moved to Singapore. And I was living there until I was 17. That's when I moved to Los Angeles. And since then, I have lived in LA. A bit in Philadelphia for Business School. And now I've been in Seattle for about 11 years.
Mike Cole 14:10
So you mentioned growing up in Singapore, and then in Hong Kong. What are some formative childhood memories that you can really remember that are vivid? That might have kind of foreshadowed, or brought you to where you are today?
Jennie Sze 14:25
So when I was in—when I was going to pick a major for college, I had this idea that I wanted to do Hotel Management in Hawaii. And my parents said no. They said, "You don't want to be serving people!" You want to pick something—you know, the typical Asian—this is a very "Asian culture." The doctors, the lawyers, engineers, accounting.
Jerrin Padre 14:54
Mhmm.
Jennie Sze 14:54
And so I tried biology, and—I just can't be doing dissections. It just grossed me out. So I couldn't go the medical route. And math was okay for me. So I went into accounting. And then later I realized I hated it, when I was trying to sit for my CPA exam.
Jerrin Padre 15:15
Mhmm!
Jennie Sze 15:15
So I dropped it. And then I just, you know, kind of just went into this finance strategy route. Doing all of that. And only recently—actually, this past weekend—I went to the Vipassana Center. It's a meditation center. And I was serving there as a volunteer for five days. And I loved it! I just loved it. Just cooking, chopping apples, serving people. And it occurred to me, in my meditation, that I've loved service. And I knew it when I was young, but I didn't really know it. And somehow service has this connotation that it's "less-than," compared to these other professions. And I know my parents were trying to protect me, and they want the best for me. They don't want to see me as someone serving others. But I realize what makes me really happy is service. Yes. I wonder what would happen if I had gone to Hawaii, and did Hotel Management. But I'm also grateful for the life that I've had. And the career that I've had. I think it develops skills that, maybe, I naturally wouldn't have chosen. But it really expanded to the person that I am. Because service comes so easy to me.
Jerrin Padre 16:47
So during your time at UCLA—so you said you graduated with a BA in Business Economics right? From UCLA?
Jennie Sze 16:54
Yes. Mhmm.
Jerrin Padre 16:55
And then did you go to get your MBA at Wharton right after? Or was that a couple years afterwards?
Jennie Sze 17:03
It was about four or five years after I graduated from undergrad.
Jerrin Padre 17:09
So what did you do in the interim? After you studied accounting. And then what made you want to pursue that MBA?
Jennie Sze 17:16
I was working for Disney at Disney Consumer Products. I was doing Strategy and Finance. And I found myself—well, actually, I've always loved going to school. So it was always my desire to get a graduate degree. But I went back to school, really, to see how much I can grow as a person. I did not go to MBA school because I want to change my career, or get higher pay—all the typical reasons I think people may want to go to school, go back to school. I wouldn't say typical. I don't know. I don't know. But that's my perception.
Jerrin Padre 18:02
Well, especially Wharton Business School at U Penn, right?
Jennie Sze 18:06
Yeah.
Jerrin Padre 18:06
Because that's, like, one of the top 10/top 15 programs in the US.
Jennie Sze 18:11
Yeah, I always feel a bit shy when people say that. You know, we talk about identity. And I had experiences before where people were like, "You're a Wharton grad?" Or like, "You work for BCG?" Especially in Asia, when people that I've grown up with it's like—when I go back and visit—like, "You did what?"
Jerrin Padre 18:35
Yeah.
Jennie Sze 18:36
I feel like I don't want to be identified by just these things. It makes me feel like I'm somewhat different than them.
Jerrin Padre 18:49
Sure.
Jennie Sze 18:49
And it's—I understand it, but I feel a bit uncomfortable.
Jerrin Padre 18:56
What do you feel like they're saying when they say those comments to you?
Jennie Sze 19:02
I remember one time, my friend—when he found out that I work for BCG—he's like, "Do you know that even the top student in our entire college in Singapore could not get a position there?" Like, they just put you at this really high pedestal.
Jerrin Padre 19:24
Mhmm. And obviously, like, I'm sure he meant it as a compliment. Right? But...
Jennie Sze 19:28
Yeah.
Jerrin Padre 19:28
... it puts a lot of pressure on you as an individual to be a certain way, or to deflect that and say, "But no, I'm approachable. I care." I—like, obviously, because you found very early on that your purpose was service, and to help other people be the best that they could be. So I—yeah, I could imagine that that's a lot of pressure.
Jennie Sze 19:51
That—I mean, it's only my reaction and I think there is a different way I could react that is full of grace and excitement. I do, in some ways, want to see if I could respond in a different way. I don't know if I'm there yet. And also the part about service, I would say, I did not know that that was my passion.
Jerrin Padre 20:21
Oh okay, gotcha.
Jennie Sze 20:22
Like I wasn't conscious of that.
Jerrin Padre 20:25
But you just knew it wasn't necessarily accounting or any of the things that you were currently doing, right?
Jennie Sze 20:32
Yeah. Yeah.
Jerrin Padre 20:33
Yeah.
Jennie Sze 20:33
I don't know if it answered your question.
Jerrin Padre 20:36
No, I think you did. I mean, you talked about how it was like a nice challenge for you. You wanted to see how much you could grow as an individual.
Jennie Sze 20:44
Yeah.
Jerrin Padre 20:44
And how much you could learn, versus what necessarily it was that you were studying. It just so happened to be, you know, one of the best MBA programs in the country. But that wasn't why you went. You weren't—and then—because I think what I'm getting to is like your journey, at face value. Like if you were to just scroll through your LinkedIn, which I did, you see this very traditional consultant path.
Jennie Sze 21:08
Mhmm.
Jerrin Padre 21:08
And then, obviously, you diverted from that. But it was like a BA in Business Economics at UCLA, MBA from Wharton. BCG consultant. I feel like that's a pretty traditional path. And then the culture there. When I think of "Jennie," I don't necessarily think of the culture at BCG, or the culture at Wharton—which I think is what you're getting to when you are saying how you feel slightly uncomfortable when people bring up these points, right?
Jennie Sze 21:33
Yes, that is true. And I think that may be the split inside me. I'm thinking about Mulan. *laughing* Like the two sides.
Jerrin Padre 21:44
Mhmm!
Jennie Sze 21:44
And there is the part that has been trained from my upbringing in Asia to achieve, and these are things that are important. And I still found my own reasons to pursue the things that my upbringing wants me to pursue, which is: I want to see how much more I can grow. And at the same time, there is this other part that was hidden and undiscovered until much later, when I was able to really let go of the cultural upbringing messages of what success looks like.
Jerrin Padre 22:23
Yeah. I feel like I resonate a lot with your journey, because there's a lot of parallels to my own. So beginning of my senior year, going into college, I thought that I was just going to go to theater school. I was going to do the conservatory thing. I was going to audition for all these East Coast schools. But I think I needed to take a step back from production, for many reasons, just because I felt like I was out of stories to tell. And I just wanted to live my own story, so I had more. And also it was the pressure, of course from my family, of having a plan B, because I think I was very lucky that they were supportive of me pursuing something creative. But the condition was I had to do something practical as well. So for me, that was business.
Jennie Sze 23:06
Yeah.
Jerrin Padre 23:07
I don't know why it's always business. It's like, "Okay, well, we know you're not going to be an engineer. We know you're not gonna be a lawyer, or a doctor. So now you're going to be a business person. You're going to be a shark. And this is how you're going to get to that path." So I do find it interesting. like, to hear people like you—or even John Legend, who was also a BCG consultant?
Jennie Sze 23:25
A Wharton grad, yes.
Jerrin Padre 23:26
I'm pretty sure.
Jennie Sze 23:27
Yes, he's a Penn grad and a BCG. Yeah.
Jerrin Padre 23:30
Exactly. Jennie, you're in good company, okay? But yeah, it's so interesting to hear your journeys from this very traditional business path, to completely pivoting and doing something else. And I'm sure mindfulness—like being able to harness mindfulness and introspection—had a lot to do with that shift.
Jennie Sze 23:51
Yeah, yeah. I would say that life also happened to me. That brought me to that place. I think there was a seed of desire, definitely, for some peace, mindfulness. Even when I was younger. But I do think that it was my life events that brought me to, kind of, the doorway of mindfulness. I was really struggling to find a way to understand what was happening, and to explain why my life kind of shifted in a way that I didn't expect. So I don't know that I really made the choice, because I was mindful. I think the choice was pushed on me. And the life circumstances made me, or lured me, into looking at mindfulness as a solution. When I was applying to business school, I had to write down why I wanted an MBA. And you are told to write down a big, hairy audacious goal. I didn't know what I would say. But what came out was I wrote about wanting to create great cultures in organizations, so that people can be happy at work. And at that time, I didn't even know there are people who go around advising on this. And 10 years later, from the time I wrote this essay, I ended up at Disney Institute, doing the exact job that I wrote about in my business school essay. And then within one year of being there at this dream job, I could not work there anymore, because I had a manager that I just couldn't get along with. And if—actually, I think the way I was managed to reminded me of being criticized when I was young.
Jerrin Padre 25:58
Hmm.
Jennie Sze 25:59
So it really hurt my self esteem. I just could not...
Jerrin Padre 26:02
It triggered that trauma.
Jennie Sze 26:03
... bear working there anymore. Yeah. And at that time, I didn't know it was to trauma. All I could sense was that I was being bullied. I didn't feel I was treated fairly. I tried to voice my concern, but it wasn't heard. And I did not believe in the leaders. And so I left really brokenhearted, because I really loved my coworkers. I really loved the work. And I had this moment where I really questioned life as like, "Why would the universe set me up to be on this path, get me to this place, and then create a situation where I have to leave so quickly? And where am I supposed to go from here?" I did look for jobs after that, and I couldn't really find a place that aligned with what I wanted. And so I have this strange reality where, in the past, everything I did was smooth sailing; the door's always open. Now, nothing is opening, and I don't see any good options. And to go from a person who was working all the time, for many years, to suddenly not be working—I had to question my self-worth beyond my job title. And that's what actually brought me into mindfulness.
Mike Cole 27:34
So Jennie, let's talk a little more about mindfulness. You incorporate a lot of mindfulness, and meditation, and kind of just guided introspection into your coaching practice. So how do those play into the Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Belonging space?
Jennie Sze 27:54
To me, belonging is the overarching umbrella, and diversity, equity, and inclusion is within it. And belonging, my spiritual interpretation, is about coming back to the knowing—the deep knowing that we are one. We look like we're individuals and separated, like there are different leaves on a tree. But we are part of the same tree. Belonging—this starts from within. If we look for belonging on the outside, for people to validate us, that is very understandable. But it's temporary, I would say. Once it's not there, you start feeling like you don't belong, and stressed out. And you start questioning your self identity and self-worth. True belonging is when you are so deeply rooted in yourself, and your connection to the world around you, that you don't really need to seek that anymore from the outside, because you have it inside you. So this work about DEIB, I see, overall is just different pathways to get people to see that we are different and unique, but we are part of the same tree. We have different shapes, we have different shades, we have different functions. And I've seen this. One time, when the wind was blowing, and some of the leaves were rattling, some of the other leaves on the other branches were stationary because the wind was not blowing through it. And I always remember that image, because to me it's like, "Oh, okay. Right now, these people are being rattled in some way." Maybe they're having some growth opportunities. Maybe they're traveling, and the leaves on the other side of the tree is looking over like, "Oh, why am I not given the growth opportunities? Why am I not traveling?" But the wind wasn't blowing through those branches at this moment, and you will get your turn. And that's how I see the work on a spiritual level.
Jerrin Padre 30:18
So what would you say to folks who aren't in touch with that spiritual side, or may not have had the opportunity or the circumstances that have driven them to seek mindfulness? What would you say to them?
Jennie Sze 30:30
I would say you are exactly where you are supposed to be. I know that people often turn to mindfulness, at the beginning, because they just want to be able to sleep, or they just want to de-stress. They just want their mind to stop for a moment and get a release. And that's a great place to start. I think that people will naturally continue to do the things that they enjoy. But obviously, there's also our habitual mind, which has been conditioned by TV, phones, movies—all of these things to distract us and entertain us. And so it's hard for the mind to want to just stop, and sit with yourself to get connected. To really do the work. So there is that part to overcome, which is your own mind. And the mind feels like it always needs to do something. You know, productivity is a huge part of our culture. I used to have these days where—oh, if I have no plans for the weekend, especially Friday nights after work, I get so antsy. Like, I have to find something to do. And if there's no plans for the weekend, something is wrong. *laughing* And I can get depressed, and bored, and it's like the thing I really want to avoid. Like, being bored is the thing I really need to avoid. I was so fearful of just being. I don't know—this is maybe going into too much spirituality.
Jerrin Padre 32:15
No, no. I think it relates so much to this idea of people just fearing pain and discomfort in general. And that's why it's so hard to address these huge issues like racism, homophobia, discrimination...
Jennie Sze 32:30
Mhmm.
Jerrin Padre 32:30
... in the workplace, out of the workplace—whatever it is. I feel like the first gut reaction, when you hear those words, is defensiveness and being triggered. And there's not a lot of sitting, and reflecting, and kind of embracing the discomfort that comes with those topics.
Mike Cole 32:48
I think too, you have—the flip-side of that—you have, you know, certainly an event—the murder of George Floyd caused a tremendous amount of conversation and brought a lot of things to light that, honestly, had been going on for hundreds of years. But just—it takes something like that to make those of us who are wanting to learn, and wanting to really be able to participate, and support, and advocate. But you got the other side of the camp that—it still didn't faze them. So what do you say to those—what do you say to people who are in that environment, that—maybe they're in that mode of thinking because it's peer pressure, or it's family members that have that way of thinking, and it's ingrained in them. But they have this innate desire to be an ally or an advocate, and learn more about what's going on. What might be that first step that they could take to start using mindfulness to help with that?
Jennie Sze 33:48
I think many of us may not have the privileged opportunity to really, truly understand what compassion and empathy really feels like, and looks like. And have exposure to different people's true experience, to understand how challenging it is for people in different positions. So whether it's on the police side—and I have personal experiences where I'm going through immigration, I get questioned in a way that I don't feel like I'm treated equally—but then there's the other side, where, in their mind, they are doing their job. And then there is the people who are in prison. And then when you hear their story, you understand the trauma that they have gone through because of their life experiences. The conditions that they were born with, the life experience—and you can say, "Oh, even if I had those experiences, I wouldn't be like them." You can say that. But you are not them; you don't know how their mind works. So there's what happened to someone, and then there is the, "How did I, or they, interpret that situation?" How did they react? There's the hurt from the outside as external, and then there's the hurt on the inside of a person, where they are telling themselves a story that is hurtful. That is shameful; that is anger; that is sadness. And we cannot see everyone's internal wounds. We may be able to see what happened to them on the outside, but we cannot see the ones on the inside. So whether they are the police, or the person on the ground, both people have internal wounds. And you know, no, "Which one is bigger?" Or, "You don't know what color the wound is." The judgments are not helpful. The only way for the whole mankind, and planet, to heal is to be compassionate to one another. And I also want to say—I don't know how this is related, but it's coming to me—it's like, I have been brought to the planet conversation over this past year. And I would love DEIB to expand beyond human to human. We are doing too much competing, striving, producing, and I think the planet's asking us to do less. All the pain of the world is this idea that we are separate. And we so much want to belong. And then we create this "us versus them." And, is it humans against the planet if the hurricanes, and the fires, and all that starts raging? Or are we all one? And what is the path to collective thriving?
Mike Cole 36:58
Yeah, I guess I never really thought about carrying DEIB past the human experience. I mean, it makes complete sense.
Jerrin Padre 37:06
I really liked what you said, too, Jennie, about empathy as a privilege. Just because the time that it takes to get yourself to the point where you can actually digest these ideas, and then put them into practice, is a privilege.
Jennie Sze 37:21
Yeah, that is really wise. I find myself to be tremendously lucky, where life brought me to a place where I am not working all the time. So that I have time to cultivate this other parts, but so many people's lives may not present them with the opportunity to have that time. But I would say that we do have a choice. If we have the desire, we can find a way. And it's not just for others. When you heal yourself, when you have time for yourself, then all your demons and your old wounds start showing up. Then you heal yourself. When you heal yourself, you heal the world.
Mike Cole 38:04
Jennie, you've been a wealth of knowledge. And I certainly—I've learned a lot just from this episode. Truly, some things that I will take away, and that I can do. What about our listeners? Where can they go? Because, you know, knowledge is power? Are there any books that you might recommend that somebody can go to, and read? Or maybe communities that they can be a part of? What are some resources that our listeners might be able to gain knowledge from?
Jennie Sze 38:34
Well, the first one is—I've already mentioned—is the Vipassana centers. They offer 10-day silent retreats. And it could be pretty intense that you're sitting for 10 hours a day, in meditation, for 10 days. And you don't get to eat after 12:00 pm. *laughing* Pretty intense. But I would say just jumping into that will definitely give you a strong foundation for mindfulness. And it's totally donation-based, so cost is not a barrier. Only finding time, and your personal commitment, is required. Less, maybe, commitment approach would be just starting off with these apps like Headspace or Insight Timer—my favorite's Insight Timer—and just start on some meditations, yoga. Just get into the enjoyment. I think if, when you find joy in it, then you will start to just do more. And then in terms of books, there are so many teachers out there, and also conferences, and retreat centers. I'm not going to name any because anyone who has Google will be able to find something. *chuckling* I would say that my advice is: once you seek, the answers will appear. And I will say the important thing to do, actually, is whenever you find yourself rushing—going into full-on task mode, and you kind of lost in it—it's time to take a pause. When you find yourself reacting to people in your household in a negative way, it's time to take a pause. You need to do some self care, and tap into what's going on inside of you that is causing you to see everything from a tired, negative perspective.
Mike Cole 40:44
Well Jerrin, I don't know about you, but I feel reenergized and ready to do some of those things. Jennie, you have a way of just imparting calm and peacefulness. I truly think that that's what going to come across on this episode. Jerrin, any closing thoughts from you?
Jerrin Padre 41:02
I think you brought so many new ideas for us to digest, and your journey is so unique. And it's something that, you know, I think a lot of our listeners probably haven't had exposure to. And, so, thank you for bringing that wealth of perspective, and knowledge, to us today, and I think it's just a privilege for us to get to be in your presence, Jennie. Because you are just, truly, a calming force.
Jennie Sze 41:30
Thank you! I am glad I could do that, and taking compliments is not easy for me. *laughing* So, thank you! Thank you very much.
Mike Cole 41:43
No, thank you, Jennie, for being on the show. And thank you, folks, for listening again to Peoplecast, and we'll see you next time!
Jerrin Padre 41:51
Bye!
Mike Cole 42:01
Thanks for listening. Remember to subscribe to Peoplecast, so you're in-the-know when new episodes are released. Also, if the platform you're listening on offers reviews, leave one and let us know your thoughts. Peoplecast is a production of Media Partners Corporation. To chat with someone about training for the topics discussed on this episode, or any other industry-leading, award-winning training topics, call 800-408-5657 or go to mediapartners.com. Again, thanks for listening and we'll see you next time on Peoplecast!