It's hard to believe we are at the end of Season 1! In this episode, there are three returning guests, Heather Shelton (Episode 4), Haley Moss (Episode 6), and Josh Rich (Episode 5). Jerrin and Mike recap some of the Season 1 highlights and our panelists continue the conversation around "Humanizing DEIB through Storytelling", plus answering some of our audience questions!
It's hard to believe we are at the end of Season 1! In this episode, there are three returning guests, Heather Shelton (Episode 4), Haley Moss (Episode 6), and Josh Rich (Episode 5). Jerrin and Mike recap some of the Season 1 highlights and our panelists continue the conversation around "Humanizing DEIB through Storytelling", plus answering some of our audience questions!
Mike Cole 0:03
Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Peoplecast. I'm your host, Mike Cole, and with me today, as always, is our co-host and producer extraordinaire Jerrin Padre. Hello. So, Jerrin, today's super special day, right?
Jerrin Padre 0:22
Yes. Yes it is. You're a little soft.
Mike Cole 0:24
Oh, well, let's see...
Jerrin Padre 0:25
I think we got to like boost you up a little bit.
Mike Cole 0:27
Ehh, let's try that. How about that? Is that better?
Jerrin Padre 0:30
Maybe a little bit more.
Mike Cole 0:32
How about that?
Jerrin Padre 0:33
It's a little bit better. Just a smidgen.
Mike Cole 0:35
A smidgen?
Jerrin Padre 0:36
A smidgen more.
Mike Cole 0:37
Smidgen more? There we go. There's a smidgen more.
Jerrin Padre 0:40
Oh, amazing.
Mike Cole 0:41
That is ultra loud in my ears. But that's fine. I'm good. We will manage with what we have. So, as we said, today is a pretty special day. I mean, not only is this the Peoplecast season one finale, but we're recording our first live stream episode. How 'bout that?
Misc 1:01
*applause sound*
Mike Cole 1:02
Standing "O"? Applause, applause. Yeah. How about that?
Jerrin Padre 1:09
It's pretty incredible.
Mike Cole 1:12
I think so.
Jerrin Padre 1:13
How are you feeling Mike?
Mike Cole 1:16
It's been a week. It's been a long week. And what is it? It's only Tuesday. I keep saying it's been a long week. But I've been just kind of ticking the days off on my calendar for this because I'm really, really excited. So how are you feeling today, Jerrin?
Jerrin Padre 1:30
I'm feeling a little bit nervous. But super excited. Yeah, just a little bit nervous. But we're we're in pretty good company.
Mike Cole 1:37
Oh, oh, definitely. We are in super good company. We have three of our returning guests—or three returning guests from this past season. Now. I did prepare just a little bit of a special intro for them.
Jerrin Padre 1:51
Play it!
Mike Cole 1:51
And we'll roll that now.
Jerrin Padre 1:54
Do it! Play it! Roll it!
Misc 1:54
*Peoplecast theme with a hip-hop style, interjected with guests' names throughout* *guests dance along with music*
Mike Cole 2:27
I could just roll that all day. Roll that all day.
Jerrin Padre 2:30
All day. That's the whole episode.
Mike Cole 2:32
All day; yep, that's it.
See, Josh and I were in the same camp right? I'm just doing the head bob. I'm just doing this. Yeah.
Misc 2:40
*multiple people speaking*
Heather Shelton 2:41
Y'all gonna get a little bit more swag. I want to see some more shoulder.
Jerrin Padre 2:44
Yeah.
Mike Cole 2:45
That'll happen someday, not on this episode.
Josh Rich 2:48
*laughing* Right.
Jerrin Padre 2:50
It's all in the shoulder.
Haley Moss 2:52
It's so good to see all of your faces.
Josh Rich 2:55
Good to see you too.
Jerrin Padre 2:56
Well, why don't we go around the virtual room and do a little bit of an intro. So why don't we do name, title, and this icebreaker question? S o you're stuck in a room with 1000 other people. The only way to get out of the room is to do something better than those 1000 other people. So what would that one thing be? Why don't we start with Heather?
Heather Shelton 3:21
Hmm, um. Well, hello, everybody. My name is Heather Shelton. And shout out to the comments. I like all of the comments people are putting in. Robin House, Newport News, Virginia. Two up, two down; that's where I'm from. So I had to shout that out real quick. Because when you from VA, you got to tell each other you from VA. I am a media coach and personality and I have loved every minute of being a part of Peoplecast.
Josh Rich 3:48
Awesome. Awesome. Well, I'm Josh Rich, and I am the founder of Lionheart HR. So excited to be with you all today. At Lionheart HR, we really work to help move conversations about DEIB to action. So that is something that we do. And in terms of the icebreaker question, Jerrin, I'm going to tentatively say that I could sing my way out of that room. That's what I'm going with.
Heather Shelton 4:16
I don't know why, I blanked. I blanked, didn't I? I didn't answer the question. That's why Josh was like double-dutching to try to get in because I was like, "Why's he waiting on me?" Like, I totally—because I was all "two up, two down" and that's where my mind was. I will not sing, so I'll piggyback on Josh. If I sing, people gonna push me out of the room. So he's gonna sing. Know what I'm saying? We might duet, but then we both don't go because he has a voice of an angel, apparently.
Josh Rich 4:41
I like that. Okay. Thank you.
Heather Shelton 4:44
*laughing*
Jerrin Padre 4:45
Anti-singing, singing. Haley, you're up.
Haley Moss 4:48
I also do not have the voice of an angel. So I'm right alongside you. I'll sing my butt out because they will kick me out because I'm a terrible singer. But I'm even worse of an athlete. So if you tried to make me do something athletic, that's really my ticket out of the room. But since I haven't gotten to introduce myself, and I got to just jump straight into our question. I'm Haley Moss, I am an attorney, I am an author, and I am an advocate for neurodiversity, autism, and disabilities. I am from Miami, Florida. So, joining you—so I'm somewhere with lots of sunshine and palm trees, even though I'm pretty sure it's been raining the last couple of days. And I get to geek out about all things related to neurodiversity. I really love what I do. And I think that we can have some really great conversations together. And hopefully you don't have to hear me sing. And you don't have to watch me play sports. But if I had to do something I'm actually kind of good at I would probably actually, like, draw and paint or something. Just take commissions the entire way out of the room.
Jerrin Padre 5:47
I love that. You'd have to like create some space in that room of 1000 people, though, to like set up an easel.
Haley Moss 5:54
People would leave because the room would be so crowded if we set up an easel. It's genius. Genius.
Jerrin Padre 6:01
Mike, what about you?
Mike Cole 6:03
Oh my goodness. I am right there with Haley. Definitely it's, you know, anything sports oriented or dancing? If I were to dance, yeah, I would clear the room in a heartbeat. So what about you Jerrin?
Jerrin Padre 6:16
Thumb wrestling. Because for whatever—maybe it's because I grew up texting instead of talking on the phone, but I feel like I have a lot of dexterity in my thumbs. And I've won many a thumb wrestle-playing tournament. So that's what I would do.
Mike Cole 6:33
I'm glad you clarified wrestling as thumb wrestling. Because I had Smackdown, you know, WWE in my head. But, okay, you can do that. Rock, paper, scissors. You're good at that, too?
Jerrin Padre 6:46
Yes. It just depends because some people never get the—is it "1, 2, 3 shoot," or is it "1, 2, shoot?" So...
Heather Shelton 6:56
It's 1, 2, 3 shoot.
Misc 6:57
*multiple people speaking*
Mike Cole 6:59
Wait a minute, is it not Rock Paper Scissors Lizard Spock?
Josh Rich 7:04
No.
Mike Cole 7:05
If you're a Big Bang Theory fan, you know Rock Paper Lizard Scissors Spock? Or Rock Paper Scissors Lizard Spock. Yeah, that's it.
Haley Moss 7:13
Everybody's looking at you like, "What are you talking about?"
Mike Cole 7:16
Hey, look it up. All I can say is look it up.
Josh Rich 7:18
*laughing*
Heather Shelton 7:18
*laughing*
Mike Cole 7:19
Do I have any people..?
Josh Rich 7:21
It's okay, Mike.
Haley Moss 7:21
I don't watch Big Bang Theory and thumb wrestling's hard enough already because I've left-handed. So I'm just—all of these hand sports don't go well for me.
Mike Cole 7:30
"I get it." Jeanette Caldera, there in the chat. She says, "Love Big Bang." Right there with you. Yep.
Jerrin Padre 7:38
Love Big Bang. Oh yeah.
Mike Cole 7:40
So I got—our listeners are backing us up. Backing me up, anyway. You guys are leaving me in the dust but that's fine. It's okay. I'll deal with it.
Josh Rich 7:48
It's all good, Mike.
Mike Cole 7:50
I'm not gonna cry.
Heather Shelton 7:51
We love you, Mike. It's fine.
Mike Cole 7:52
Well—
Jerrin Padre 7:55
Well, we're super—oh, yeah, go take it.
Mike Cole 7:56
Well we are. Yeah we are. No seriously, I mean, you were gonna say the same thing I was. We are really excited to have you three back on the show. We're excited to have our listeners, the audience out there. I mean, it's just going to be a phenomenal show here. Well, tell you what, let's just get into it. So Jerrin, why don't you kick us off?
Jerrin Padre 8:15
Happy to Mike. So this past season, as you all know, is about humanizing DEIB, through storytelling. DEIB, meaning diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. We said it a bunch during the season, but just wanted to reiterate. So I think after the past year and a half, the dialogue around DEIB has expanded immensely. But, to some degree, it's also gotten just a little bit played out, especially in the corporate environment. So we really started this podcast because we wanted to go deeper. And instead of approaching DEIB, from a "check the box" perspective, we wanted to model real conversations with real industry experts in an effort to humanize this initiative, and also hopefully share some perspectives that our audience may not have heard or encountered otherwise. So just to kick off our conversation today, I wanted to ask you three: what do you think the roadblocks are to humanizing the conversation around diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging? So since we started with Heather last time, why don't we go to Josh Haley, and then Heather. So Josh, what's that one roadblock you see that prevents us from humanizing this conversation?
Josh Rich 9:28
Thank you, Jerrin. So I think that one roadblock to humanizing this conversation about DEIB is something that I feel like I'm seeing more of, and that is a "us versus them" mentality. That is seemingly very prevalent, you know, at this point, and so, you know, I would just kind of step back for a moment and say, as relates to the us versus them, mentality. When we look at it genetically, all of us are like 99%, the same, DNA-wise, in terms of our makeup And so what that tells me is that, in many ways, people are focused upon the artificial, you know, differences in terms of that being so much bigger, versus all of the similarities that we have, just from a genetic standpoint, you know, in that way. And I think that it's a missed opportunity. If we look at things through that lens solely because of the fact that there's a business case for why we need to make sure that we are, in fact, taking diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging as not just a "check the box" exercise, but really something that we are aligning with business strategy and so forth. Case in point: there is a musical superstar that I'm sure everybody has heard of, by the name of Rihanna, right. Last week, Rihanna was in the news because she recently was named a billionaire. And it wasn't solely because of her music. It was because of her business endeavors with with Fenty Beauty, right. And you say, "Well, why is that a big deal?" Well, it was a big deal because Rihanna looked at a segment of the marketplace that was not really being served fully. And she came out with a makeup line that would provide all different shades of makeup, right. And so this underserved aspect of the marketplace, they went, they tested out the makeup, and they said that not only did they love it, they appreciated her for it. And look at what it has done for her, and her business. It's made them so profitable. And now she's a billionaire. There have been beauty supply companies out there for many years. But this was a missed opportunity. So Rihanna and her team came in, they looked at the marketplace, they said, "Hey, I think that we can do this differently. And we can actually carve out a segment for ourselves." And so, you know, she did that. And now we're seeing a proof of it, in that way. And other competitors are starting to, what, have to make that pivot to go to that next segment of the marketplace. So again, I think the "us versus them" is a roadblock right now. But if we look at it a little differently, I think that we're going to see opportunities, just like Rihanna did, and it's going to help businesses to be that much stronger.
Jerrin Padre 12:12
Yeah, I think there's absolutely a business case for the authenticity behind not just running a "check the box" DEIB initiative. Haley, what do you—what are your thoughts on that?
Haley Moss 12:23
I think that a lot of businesses do run a "check the box," especially in areas of inclusion that we're not as well-versed in, or because we do know there's a business case. So when it comes to disability inclusion, and neurodiversity, a lot of folks focus on this moral imperative of, "Oh, look at us, we're good people. We're hiring people with disabilities." Then they focus on the business case of, "Oh, look, we make more money. Oh, look, the public loves when we see these cashiers who are using wheelchairs, or who have a physical disability, or an intellectual disability." Like we just feel good about it, and they make more money, their shareholders are happy, etc, etc. But I think just doing things for the business case, or because there's a hole in that market, isn't really what it's all about either. I think with DEIB, it's really important that we humanize that however we can. I know that's something that we've been trying to do here at Peoplecast. But, the way that I see it, is also treating the people who are doing this work, who are educating, who are making sure that products and services and great places to work are for everybody. And that is accessible; that those of us who are in that leadership role, that we're also seen as human beings. I know coming from disability, a lot of times, we're seen as simply just inspiring stories, or just to tell our personal story. And that our personal/professional mix often isn't seen as a valid intersection sometimes. So I know especially for me, because I have a sizable following online, and I do a lot of work on Instagram, for instance, and I post a lot—at least in my stories, when I get around to it—folks will just treat me as a resource, and an account rather than a person.
So I think it's really important that we always remember that behind everything that we consume, whether it's Rihanna's makeup, whether it's an Instagram influencer, or whether it's an article that we read online, that there are actual people behind that. There's someone whose byline is on that article, someone who was quoted for it, there's someone running an Instagram account. There's someone who's running DEIB initiatives at a company, and there's a whole team, Rihanna's case—I doubt Briana did it alone. So I think it's really important that we realize that there are humans, and we treat humans like humans. It happens a lot more disabilities, we get treated like young children when we're adults, or we just don't get treated like people and it's like, "Please help me with my kid. Please help me with this." And it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down. I am a person. I am a person who is educating as, primarily at times, a volunteer. Sometimes I'm doing it for work, but I am also not a therapist as much as I would love to help you. Sometimes I'm not the right person, or that I'm not the right person to even represent you in a legal case. Please don't get mad at me for it. I am a person, not an account. I am someone with interests and hobbies and things outside of this space, too.
Jerrin Padre 15:01
Absolutely. #NotASpokesperson for sure. I feel like that's definitely something that's been part of the conversation that I've seen, even online. Just about relying on your friends who may represent a certain marginalized population to be the spokesperson for that entire population. Heather, what are your thoughts on that?
Heather Shelton 15:23
Man, Haley, way to be awesome. First of all, I'm a fan, trust. Straight up fan. I think a roadblock to the conversation, too, is fear, right? I think people sometimes don't know how to start a conversation with someone who's different from them. You know, they might have grown up a certain way; their friend group might be talking a certain way. And then you show up to work and, hey, you're working with a person that's not from where you're from, right? And so I think a lot of the times, people really are resistant to change, and they don't want to be wrong. They don't want to face, like, some of the things that they thought about. And I think a way to get around that is to be curious about people. Just be curious, in general. Be a life learner. And I think asking questions—but being honest about why you're asking the question, right? Like Haley said. Like, she's not a resource, like, don't go up and just, like, use her up. But if you want to be honest, and really get to know people, stay curious. Be a lifelong learner. And just that removes that fear barrier, I think.
Mike Cole 16:31
I would completely agree with you on that one, Heather. Fear. And I see right here, Michelle, in the chat, she agrees as well. Fear is the number one thing that is, to me—you know, it's a roadblock because I think that sometimes we just—we don't want to say the wrong thing, right? And the way that I have approached the journey that I'm on is I would rather take a chance to start the conversation, and maybe say the wrong thing, learn from it, apologize, and move on. Rather than just not say anything at all. And I think, you know, fear is the biggest roadblock for me anyway. And I completely agree. And also, thank you to another one of our participants, Caitlin, for clarifying that Rihanna's makeup line is Fenty. And, Josh, I'm glad you shared that story. I mean, that's Rihanna's story, right? She has had a career and she's built this—well, I wouldn't say empire, that's probably not the right word. But she has built this because of her efforts and what, you know, she feels. And it's a really cool story. And frankly, that's what season one was all about. Season one was all about storytelling, and how we were kind of using it as a vehicle for cultivating vulnerability, for empathy, and just making a connection. So from that standpoint, I have another question for all of our panelists here. What's the most enriching or productive conversation that you've ever had around DEIB? And what made it that way? What made it so enriching? And Haley, I think we're gonna start with you. And then we'll go back around the horn again. So Haley, go ahead.
Haley Moss 18:09
Oh, my gosh, I don't think I could point to one specific conversation. But I think that, in general, conversations that go really well are with people who are willing to learn, and acknowledging that you're being vulnerable by learning. And this is something I know we talked about a little bit before we started today, that when folks are open minded, they want to learn and realizing that their fear might be misplaced. Or maybe, hey, it's okay. Chances are, we all started somewhere. And we didn't always get it right. I think that's a really great place to start. And I think that what's really impactful, at least for me, is sharing parts of my story without telling the entire story. So there are things that people want to know about my life, no matter what, that are off limits, because boundaries, and there are things that I feel very comfortable sharing, because that's what I feel comfortable with.
But I realized sharing a little bit of my story that personal/professional realizing, "Why am I the person talking about this?" Like, why me, why now? I think that's the question that we have to ask ourselves a lot like why are we these people in this conversation sometimes. And when we give people that answer, like, okay. It's not that it's just some young person who's just on some, like, social justice high horse, for instance, and they're talking to me like a person, that this is something that personally impacts them. And that I can do better, for not only this person, but for other people like this person. And that's something that I know that I've learned, because I've been on the receiving end of DEIB education. And when it's coming from someone who I know is—their heart's in the right place, they genuinely care, and they don't want to make you feel bad because you might have done something wrong in the past, or maybe you didn't know something was harmful. So I think it's understanding and realizing that we all have the capability to learn and grow, and that people who have personal connections to an issue with the people we're going to empathize the most with. I think anything that we can build connection and empathy is a great conversation for us to learn from.
Mike Cole 20:02
I'm right there with you on those two words that you said: connection and conversation. Those two pieces are critical to a lot of what we're talking about. So conversation is very—it's a key part. And looking here, one of our comments, Deborah came in and she said, "Trends in many parts of society encouraged public punishment for being wrong. No wonder there's fear." Right. So going back to Heather's comment. So, truly, conversation is the biggest thing. So let's see, Heather, what about you? Where are you at? Tell us one of the most enriching DEIB conversations you've ever had?
Heather Shelton 20:38
Well, like Haley, I've had a ton of conversations around the topic. So it's really hard to pinpoint one, Mike, but what I'll say is that the thing that people talk to me most about is how I show up authentically me. Like I'm on 10 most days, like I am today on the podcast. Now I temper my personality when I need to, but I authentically always show up as me, and I'm just not afraid to be me. And people ask, "How do you do that?" And it's, like, embrace who you are. Embrace your story. You are unique. There's only one you in the world, you're the only one with that fingerprint. You're the only one that can do the job the way that you do it. And so, I think, the way that I'm wired, and who I am usually draws people to me. And then that's the thing they always want to talk about most is just, "How do you just show up and just fly?" You're on the scene, right? And it's just, like—I've been this way since I was two. Real talk, I probably came out the womb just screaming. And I've just embraced that, and not tried to be anyone else but who I am. And so I would say that always, like Haley said and how we've said in the podcast, be curious, show up. start those conversations. If it's a hard conversation to have, be honest upfront, be like, "Hey, listen, so I didn't grow up '...'" Or, "I didn't really know people who are from this place or that place. Can you tell me X, Y and Z?" Like you don't have to be so, you know, super sneaky about it. Like, "So tell me..." You know what I'm saying, just be real talk. Be upfront, be honest, and I think you will be surprised at what you can learn from people by just staying curious.
Mike Cole 22:26
I love that. And in our comments, Abigail says, "It definitely takes effort to show up as one's selves." And the thing about you, Heather, you make it look effortless. Right. But I know it takes some work. And your comment about 10? No, you're at 11. Sorry. You're usually at 11.
Heather Shelton 22:44
So I'm tempered today?
Mike Cole 22:46
10 is one down for you today. So you might want to dial it up a little bit. But, no, we thank you for those comments. Josh, what about you? Share something with us.
Josh Rich 22:55
Sure, sure. So, you know, as I was just thinking about that question, I think one of the most enriching conversations that I had actually happened earlier this year. And it was another webinar, I was fortunate to help co-facilitate. And as we were going through a webinar on diversity and inclusion, specifically, we had a panel much like what we are taking part in today. And one of the panelists, I had the opportunity to ask him a question from one of my friends who created what is called the DEIB Game. His name is Jay Harris. And so within this game that Jay has, he really helps people to have the ability to ask some serious questions, but more in a "gamified"—you know, if that's a word—a gamified manner, right? And so the question that I selected on doing this webinar was to name one time where you were a minority in the workplace. And so I asked this question of one of the panel members, and he was a middle aged white guy. And he looked at me and he's like, "Wow, okay. I got to think about that." And then after a few more moments, he said, "You know, Josh, I think the last time that I was a minority in the workplace, or felt like a minority in the workplace, was 10 years ago." Right. And so he said 10 years ago, and, you know, we're listening to him. He said, "You know, actually, that kind of makes me sad, right? Because I hadn't even thought about what the experience of other people that did not feel like they were, you know, not having that 'ability' to not be a minority." Because they're coming to work each and every day as themselves, and having to deal with some barriers, you know, in some instances that he just never really took into consideration. And so when he thought about that, he was just like, "Wow, I got to do some things differently. You know, I need to make sure that I'm being conscious of the fact that there may be some other things that are going on, both at work and outside of work, that's impacting how people are showing up to work." And so we were able to unpack his feelings and and talk through that as a panel, and I would just think that that was probably one of the most enriching experiences that I had, as we talked about DEIB. Because, one: it helped to raise awareness. Two: I think it also created a sense of empathy. And then I think the third takeaway that, I believe, was really clear to the audience and everyone participating is that we need to have a level of grace that we're giving to each other. We got to give that grace. If we're able to do so, then that gives people space to be able to ask some questions, in an authentic way, that maybe they wouldn't otherwise ask. So I think, for all of those reasons, that was probably one of the most enriching conversations that I had about DEIB.
Jerrin Padre 25:41
It's really cool that you were able to create that space for that panelist in front of a large audience. I feel like it's way easier—well, sometimes it's not. But, theoretically, it would be way easier to create a safe space with another individual when it's just one-on-one. And especially when we're talking about, like, the concept of giving people space, and grace, and safety in those moments. It's amazing that you were able to do that in such a public manner. And I think that is—like, safety comes from giving people grace, and space to talk through all of the messaging, and the biases that they grown up their entire lives with. And, you know, I can imagine sometimes that gets pretty exhausting. Like, if you have to sit there and re-educate people over and over and over again. Sometimes you have to step back and be like, "Eh, that's not my gig anymore. Like I've done this too many times." And set those boundaries for yourself. But I think, in that moment—like, what a great model for creating that environment to have those conversations.
Mike Cole 26:49
Just really quick, Jerrin, we've got some amazing comments. Cynthia there, "Grace neutralizes fear." And, back to Heather's point earlier about fear being a huge roadblock, grace is definitely the way to neutralize that. And, Michelle, this comment. Yes. "We need a new currency of grace." Grace—be patient with our perfect imperfection, good to be aware of intent versus impact. So tons of great comments in the chat here. So thank you. Thank you for participating in that, everyone. I'm sorry, Jerrin, go ahead.
Jerrin Padre 27:25
No, this is great. You guys should all be up here actually.
Mike Cole 27:28
Exactly. Exactly.
Jerrin Padre 27:30
Yeah, I guess it's kind of reaching the final question and this panelist portion. So final question—audience members, don't worry. You'll actually have time to ask the panelists your questions in a quick second here. But just to wrap up this panel, if there's one thing that you want listeners to take away, from this season of Peoplecast, what would it be? And we're back to you, Heather.
Heather Shelton 27:55
Back to me. Thanks, Jerrin, for throwing it back. Yes. This has been so fun. Thank you so much for having us. This has been a great conversation. I think one thing I would want everyone to take away from this season would be, just, to stay curious about other people's story. Truly, truly curious. And that their story matters. Like your story matters. You learn from other people. So don't be afraid to ask a question. But don't be afraid to be vulnerable. I think, Mike, on every podcast always says something like, "Hey, I'm a middle-aged white guy." Which—middle-aged? I don't know. Because the handsomeness all over the screen? I mean, he's 20. Okay, what is the skincare?
Mike Cole 28:38
Thank you, Heather!
Heather Shelton 28:39
You know, he didn't pay me. Maybe I said that with my own eyes, okay. But he's talking about being a middle-aged white guy in this space, but he's always, like, asking the right questions. He's not afraid to be vulnerable and say, "Hey, I don't know." Or, "I want to know more." And I think that's what I want people to take away is like, "Hey, it's okay to not know, it's okay to even be wrong." If you were wrong before, and then you change now, great! Like, you don't have to worry about the past, and worry about what you used to do. It's about where you start today. And, so, get curious about people. And don't be afraid to ask questions, and be vulnerable, for sure. And that Mike is handsome.
Mike Cole 29:21
I appreciate that, Heather! Thank you. Thank you. I'm blushing. I'm red. Thank you.
Jerrin Padre 29:26
Getting a little pink!
Mike Cole 29:28
I know, just a little pink. That's—I'll have to adjust my lighting.
Heather Shelton 29:30
If I can make a suggestion: also be on camera, and not just do podcasts.
Mike Cole 29:35
Yeah. Okay. I appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah. Check's in the mail. I was once told I had a face for radio. So there you go. Thank you for that.
Josh Rich 29:44
Oh no!
Jerrin Padre 29:46
They did not know what they were talking about. Josh, do you have any commentary on on Mike's face?
Mike Cole 29:51
Nope, we're done with that!
Josh Rich 29:55
*laughing*
I would just say, Mike, that was not an accurate comment. So thank you for—what should I say—blessing us with your presence here today. So there you go, alright. *laughing* But, uh, you know, with that, as I was just thinking through in terms of just one thing that, I guess, we want the listeners to take away, or I want the listeners to take away is to look for common ground. Okay, look for common ground with other people. We have so much more in common, or many more similarities than differences. And a lot of times society, right now, is telling us to focus upon those differences. Okay? But if we're focusing upon the differences, if we're looking at that, look at it through the lens of, "How can I find a way to celebrate those differences?" Versus thinking that just because that person is different, they're less-than, or I'm less-than. Or—you know, and so forth. So be intentional about finding common ground with someone else, right. Because we're all a part of, you know, one race, right? The human race. And so, just in that, there's going to be some things about the human experience that we can empathize with. So let's just kind of adjust that a little bit. And I think that we can experience not just more harmony, but in some ways peace, as we're interacting with each other on a daily basis. And who knows, maybe that is literally just a spark of kindness that we need to kind of change the tide a little bit. Because, right now, I think that a lot of people are feeling stressed. A lot of people are just kind of feeling like out of it, you know, in some ways, but we have the ability by recognizing people for who they are, to help change that, and make people to feel more welcomed. And as we talk about belonging, and so forth like that, and we can't pass that buck to anybody else. We all have a responsibility. So that starts with us. And I think, more specifically, that starts with us looking for that common ground. So again, if there were one thing that I would want you to take away from this season, is to be intentional about that.
Jerrin Padre 30:22
Absolutely. And to kind of hit the pause button on wanting to react in the moment.
Josh Rich 32:09
Exactly.
Jerrin Padre 32:09
Taking that brief second before to just pause. Absolutely. Haley, what are your thoughts?
Haley Moss 32:16
I think I'm with you. That brief second pause is always super helpful. And I think seeing everything as human is super important. I think, kind of going back to everything we've said, everything is just about empathy, conversations, and connection. And I think there's so much fear that we're going to do this wrong. And the truth is, you probably will say something wrong, or you might do something wrong. It's just that we all have the opportunity to keep learning and keep doing better. And we have those resources, we have those opportunities, we have that responsibility. And I think together, we really can find what we have in common, find what we don't, and realize that we can do something great together. It's realizing where did we have gaps, where and how do we address these gaps in our knowledge? So I think that—and also just keeping it human. Everything that we do is a conversation. And I think when we see it as everything is a conversation, it's a lot less intimidating.
Mike Cole 33:06
Yeah. Commonality, right. I heard that loud and clear. And it just it goes back to that grace thing, I just get hung up on that. Because if we extend grace to each other, and we give that space, then those, you know, mistakes that you make tend to be less apparent. Again, you have the opportunity to learn, move on, and move forward. So all of those comments just certainly resonate, I think, with me and with the listeners too. So thank you for that. And just want to quick shout out to Alfred in the chat here: "Age is just a number." Yes sir. Age is just a number; albeit a slightly bigger number. That's fine. I appreciate it at any rate, and I am really excited to hear more from our panelists. So let's jump right back in.
Jerrin Padre 33:57
There they are beaming back up.
Mike Cole 33:59
Coming back in.
Jerrin Padre 34:00
Hello. Hello.
Panelists. How are we feeling? Were we able to get a sip of water? Reset? Reground?
Heather Shelton 34:09
Yes.
Jerrin Padre 34:09
Josh, you hanging in there? How you doing?
Josh Rich 34:12
I'm doing awesome. Doing awesome. Enjoying it. Thank you.
Jerrin Padre 34:15
Great! Haley?
Haley Moss 34:17
Chillin'.
Jerrin Padre 34:19
Chillin'!
Mike Cole 34:20
I like that, chillin'.
Jerrin Padre 34:21
Chillin' like a villain.
Haley Moss 34:22
Preach!
Mike Cole 34:23
Exactly, exactly. So with our last 10 minutes...ish. Few minutes. Well, no, we're doing really good on time. Fantastic.
Jerrin Padre 34:32
Great!
Mike Cole 34:32
Well, we're gonna open up the conversation to you guys, to our listeners. To those who are on the show. Want you to have an opportunity to ask your questions. And, yep! We're just going to get to as many questions as we can. How about that? Let's see here. Let me go to our magic bank of questions. Jerrin, are we gonna run this just from top-down?
Jerrin Padre 34:35
Yeah, let's do that.
Mike Cole 34:35
Okay! Why not? Then we'll get to what we can and we'll go from there. So okay, panelists, here's the first question. Oh, this is good, Jerrin, you're gonna really—you'll eat this one up: What can business owners do to facilitate and encourage D&I in their communities? Let's start with Heather.
Heather Shelton 35:13
What can businesses do? I think that they can start to—I know, in Haley's podcast, she talks about leadership really speaking about their own experiences, about what they face, and who they are. And I think that would be really cool. Leaders talking about what they go through, their own obstacles in life, and then sharing that. I think that businesses really taking the time to get to know people's stories—I'm just big on stories, guys. I'm gonna always talk about your story, and talking about taking the time to have a conversation. Because one conversation can really change just the whole landscape, right? And so instead of just like one, you know, broad stroke brush of every one size fits all, every color, every, like, you know—Josh and I are black. Right? But we didn't have the same experiences growing up. Quite different, actually. But you wouldn't know that if you just assumed just because we're both black like, "Hey, we come from the same spot. You know what I'm saying? He's from Baltimore, right?
Josh Rich 36:23
Baltimore.
Heather Shelton 36:23
You from Baltimore?
Josh Rich 36:24
That's right.
Heather Shelton 36:25
You know, and I'm from VA. Like we on the East Coast, though. So we do have some similarities, for sure.
Josh Rich 36:29
*laughing*
Heather Shelton 36:30
But, you know, we grew up differently. So I would say, more conversation, more talking with the intent of like listening and getting to know, not just for the sake of the information. Like I think really knowing your associates—so the people that work for you—and also trying to really know your customer, and serve them well. I think would be good.
Josh Rich 36:58
Can I jump in?
Mike Cole 36:59
Yeah, so really quick, I—let's not go round-robin. If you got something to say, you just pop in and say it, right?
Josh Rich 37:05
Okay.
Mike Cole 37:05
There you go.
Josh Rich 37:06
Awesome. Awesome. So, you know, as I'm thinking about that question, if I heard it correctly: what can business owners do to start D&I within their communities? You know, I think it's two parts to that. I think the first part is to start internally—and in my opinion—meaning speak to your employees. If you're a business owner, speak to your employees, or have your maybe HR representative speak to, you know, the employees. But really have a conversation. And the conversation should probably lead along the lines of, "Hey, do you feel like you belong?" Or, "Do you feel included here, within our workplace culture? Do you feel like you are, you know, being heard? Do you feel like you have a voice?" Right? And I think, by asking those questions, can allow that business owner, to allow those leaders within that organization, to have a better understanding for, you know, the pulse of employee sentiment at that point. Once you start having that conversation, then you can broaden the scope a little bit, and then go external to your business and say, "Well, how can we make a bigger impact within a community that we're operating in?" Right? So if we are understanding the issues that your employees are having—and many times the employees are coming from that community—then we have the ability to make a larger impact, both internally for the company, as well as externally, by giving your employees the ability to share their perspective with you. And to—you know, as Jerrin was talking about earlier, to make sure that it is a conversation that's not going to be held against them when they are sharing their perspective, because that's how they really feel. If that goes unchecked, then, unfortunately, those employees are going to be more likely to leave that company if their voice is not going to be heard. So I certainly think that they should start internally, and then look for ways to go externally, with their D&I efforts.
Heather Shelton 39:03
That's good. That's good. I was gonna literally say that not be afraid of what you hear too.
Josh Rich 39:09
Sure.
Heather Shelton 39:09
Okay. Like you're not gonna—you probably aren't going to hear the things you really want to. Everybody probably thinks that they have checked off all the boxes, and that they're doing really well. And everybody's happy here. But we know that that's not the case in a lot of businesses. So it's like, you know, taking it, and then instituting the changes that need to be made. Like, don't just take the information and do nothing with it, you know? But actually make some forward movement on that.
Haley Moss 39:36
I have a question kind of on that vein of, "How do we make sure people are being honest with us?" That, like, if they're unhappy with the efforts that we're doing. Because, of course, if we have a culture that's very coercive in a way, people are going to say that things are great even when they're not. Or because they're afraid if they speak out, they might lose their job, or there might be some kind of retaliation or repercussion. So I think it's creating that culture, where it's okay to say, "Hey, we're not doing this right. Here's what we can do better, or here's what I think we can do." So I think that kind of goes back—there was a really interesting question in the chat, like, "How do we kind of move away to the systems, and the practices, and beliefs that we have?" And I think that's a really interesting way to look at it. How do we even build this culture of inclusion and belonging to begin with?
Heather Shelton 40:22
Not having, like, this one time a quarter, you know? These one time a quarter, like checklists of coming in. This is a constant conversation, this is something that shouldn't just be had from like the president. And then he sends out the memo, and then everybody's doing a little thing. It's like manager-to-manager, or peer-to-peer. It's something that people are talking about constantly, and feeling like they can talk about it freely. And not just, like, when you send out, you know, the survey to say, "Do you feel included right now? Are you okay today?" And it's like, "Yes, of course. Of course. Of course," because you just want to rush through it, you know what I mean?
Josh Rich 40:58
And, you know, something that's helped me is a statement that I heard years ago. And it's basically, "I listened to what you say, but I study what it is that you do." Right? And so if you're thinking about it through that lens, you're part of that leadership team. And everybody is looking to see, "Well, you're saying it's okay for us to have this conversation. But I saw how you treated that person over there when they brought forth issue that they were having. So that didn't make me feel like I could—that I could actually say what it is that I was truly feeling." And I'm being guarded now, right? Because I don't want to potentially risk me ending up them. Meaning, that I'm not going to be here because I disagreed with something that was said. So if, you know, business owners are asking that question, they have to really work to create that environment that's going to be conducive for—as Hayley was just pointing out—conducive for people to feel like they belong and can actually give voice, versus just that check-the-box. Yes, I'm in agreement.
Jerrin Padre 41:57
Just to piggyback off of that, looks like there's a question that is exactly related to checking the box. So Tonya Carter asks, "We often hear about making sure that companies are not checking the box when it comes to D&I. However, if they are just starting the journey, what do you expect during the initial steps of changing the culture?
Haley Moss 42:16
I think talking to the employees, you already have, or see—kind of doing that self-assessment and kind of re—like, having even that little reset. Take stock of what you have. Is your organization all white? Is it all neurotypical? Is it all people who have the same background or SES? Do you have parents? Do you have veterans? Kind of just looking and taking stock of what you have? And then wondering if there's things that are clearly missing, and why they're missing. Are you only posting on certain recruitment boards? Are you doing things to make sure, with the Workforce Recruitment programs and stuff with the federal government, bringing employees with disabilities, for instance? Are you using those types of resources? Like how common, and what are we doing? Why are we having certain groups self-select out? I've learned this because I was a journalist at one point. And I used to love writing. And I would put out calls for sources sometimes. And the people who would enter my inbox were people who felt the most comfortable telling their stories; who were often people that, despite if I was looking for people with disabilities, they would always be overwhelmingly white. And they would usually be women. And then of course, people will be like, "Where are the queer people? Where are the people of color? Or where are people who are not from the US?" And I'm thinking, "Was there something in my call that made it that these people didn't feel welcome, even though I said, 'I really want to hear from you if you have x y z experiences?'" Or is it that that's just who had access to the internet at that time of day? Or is it that people who had these multiple marginalizations just didn't feel like they could trust me, or talk to me about these issues? I'm not really sure. But it was really important for me to take that stuff, even when I was doing reported pieces. So I think even, no matter what your background is, you can kind of take stock of what you got or what you don't, and why. And then think, "How can we do better?" So maybe when we do recruitment at colleges and universities, we do include places that do have larger marginalized populations; that we do work that community colleges, because then we might get working parents, and veterans, and people from different backgrounds. I think it's really how are we looking at this to begin with? And how can we make sure that we do better going forward, before bringing in external speakers and external—I think a lot of that external effort, especially with bringing in speakers, etc, etc, for larger companies, too, because you guys probably have bigger budgets in HR, and bigger budgets in DEIB. But if you don't, definitely start with your organization and examine why things are happening the way they are. Why did it shake out in a start up, for instance, that everybody is all white men, for instance? What happened there? And go from there.
Josh Rich 44:45
I just wanted to say that—I think that was... was that Tanya? Did you say Tanya, Jerrin?
Jerrin Padre 44:51
Yes, Tanya Carter.
Josh Rich 44:52
So I can tell you, my colleagues would have would be looking at me sideways if I didn't make this statement. So, Tanya, I don't want to make it seem like we're demonizing checklists. Because I'm all about checklists, okay? You know, I use checklists with, you know, basically all of my tasks that I'm doing, workwise. But I think it's important to also know the intention behind how you're going to utilize those checklists. So if we are—you know, if we're using checklists, and then we're saying, "Okay, well, hey, we just checked the box. We did it," but you never had any intention of implementing any of the feedback, or making any pivots based off of, you know, the feedback that you're getting from your team members there, then I think that's the issue with the checklist. Not having a checklist in and of itself, because that can be a good thing. Because it's a guide for how we should go through this process. So I just want to, you know, share that so that my team wouldn't be, you know, "Josh, why didn't you clarify?" So, yeah.
Heather Shelton 45:51
And being transparent with what you find, too, with your company and with everybody there, right? It's like, you do all the checklists, you get all the information, and then you kind of hold it tight to the chest; versus, like, letting people know, "Hey, okay, so this is what we found when we talk to you guys about this. And these are the action steps moving forward." And have the people that work for you hold you accountable to it. I think it's our responsibility, if we work for a company, to hold the company to a certain standard as well, instead of just like, "Oh, I work for them, and I do what they say." If they've asked you for your feedback, and if they've asked you to come into the process with them, then you need to take the opportunity to do so. Boom.
Jerrin Padre 46:32
Boom.
Josh Rich 46:34
I like that.
Jerrin Padre 46:35
All right. Oh, go ahead, Mike.
Mike Cole 46:38
No, I want to go to another question here. And I keep looking at this question, I want to go to it. So how do you choose to change behavior, or keep being your true authentic self if someone else—and I think I'm reading this right—if someone else does not like that said behavior? For example, a woman in sales is being told she is aggressive in her sales pitch, yet the woman leads the team, and has the most success.
Misc 47:06
*multiple people speaking*
Haley Moss 47:09
Sounds like sexism on the aggression in women. That's literally all I'm hearing. It's like someone has this [unintelligible] attitude, and not that this woman is a go-getter who has the highest sales on the team. Like maybe reexamine yourself if this is someone who is successful in the company, and you're saying she's aggressive. Maybe reexamined yourself there, because maybe she's just a really take-charge leader, or you're just—but if a dude was doing that same thing, maybe you wouldn't say he's aggressive. Maybe you just say he's motivated. Check yourself.
Heather Shelton 47:37
Check yourself before you wreck yourself. That's what Haley said, right here, right now.
Haley Moss 47:42
That was my first instinct, please tell me if I'm wrong.
Heather Shelton 47:46
I love how you came in. You were like a lawyer, like straight-up, like, "Wait a minute, I hear something happening right here. Let me get out my degree." I think too, though—I think that, a lot of times, women are treated differently if they're successful, and then they're, you know, deemed aggressive. You know, versus just being really good at their job. I think that sometimes—I mean, I'm a woman, right? Showing up in the workplace—yeah, I've had certain things happen. I've been told, if I show up with the attitude, like—or, "You have an attitude." Right? It's like, "No, I'm just standing my ground for what I believe in or what I said," versus, "I have a counterpart that can do the same thing. And nobody says anything to them." And I think sometimes—I mean, I know it's hard, being a woman, and it's hard in certain areas. If you have different things, or you're different in any way, but I would just take the temperature of, like, who you are, and like those around you, right? Like, if you show up the way you show up, and then someone—like, that's one person saying that you're aggressive. But if everybody else is like, "Girl, you don't got that. You get that money." Like, I'm just sorry. Like, at the end of the day, it's like this dude—like, he jealous! Not—I mean, he's not a hater. Like, don't don't let me get my son's words out here. Because I'm start saying weird children words, but I'm just saying, like, if it's one person, that's one. I wouldn't even worry about one voice out of thousands of voices in your life. If it's coming up constantly, the same type of feedback, then I'd do some self assessment, right? I've definitely been told—and I have been, have not—I have been too authentic sometimes. Let's just say. So I've learned to pull back where I need to, and then I've also learned when to go 11. Like on the show, like Mike said. So, just looking inward, but making sure, "Hey, one person? Sorry, I'm not changing for one person." Nah, bruh.
Josh Rich 49:48
And, you know, as I'm hearing it, to both of your points, I think the question is: was she being aggressive, or was it moreso being assertive? What's wrong with someone being assertive, you know, in the workplace? And then, you know, if you look at it from an HR perspective as well, what policy did this she actually violate by being a little forward in her sales strategy? So if there's no policies that are being violated, you know, in that way, then I would also kind of question the intent behind someone saying, "Change what it is that you're doing." Right? So that's my thought, you know, on that.
Jerrin Padre 50:30
Who's the lawyer now, Josh?
Heather Shelton 50:33
We got HR, we got lawyers.
Jerrin Padre 50:34
I know.
Josh Rich 50:35
*laughing*
Haley Moss 50:37
You got your law degree from the School of Life.
Josh Rich 50:40
There we go. Thank you, Haley.
Haley Moss 50:42
Or you're like my dad, and you're gonna say you got it from LA Law. Just watching TV or something.
Misc 50:49
*all laughing*
Haley Moss 50:49
Full disclosure: my father is not a lawyer, which is why he says that, and it's supposed to be funny. And then I'm like, "Okay, thanks Dad."
Josh Rich 50:54
*laughing*
Heather Shelton 50:55
Tell him it was funny because you said it.
Josh Rich 50:58
Yes it is. Yeah.
Haley Moss 50:58
Yeah, you got your law degree from life, or LA Law, if that was your thing.
Josh Rich 51:04
So I'm good. I'll take it.
Mike Cole 51:06
I feel like I let everyone down. Because I really should have had the LA Law—little tones that they play there. And that would have been the perfect intro. But okay, you know, what? Next season. Next season.
Haley Moss 51:18
Yes.
Mike Cole 51:18
Yeah, we'll do that.
Jerrin Padre 51:20
Perfect. So this one is from Michelle Smith: So I am a new role leading DEIB for the first time in my Fortune 500 company. As a black woman, I'm often feeling intense pressure to be the "savior" for my community at the company. I often say I can't boil the ocean. But I also feel like I need to do more. Any advice navigating that space?
Josh Rich 51:49
That's a heavy one, Michelle. But, in terms of where to start—I mean, I think that you are dealing with that right now. You're in that role because there is a opportunity to make a change. Right? And so I think in terms of getting the the sentiment—you know, one of the things that we definitely recommend is doing surveys, and I know how much people love surveys. But, you know, doing a survey so that you can get the sentiment of the employees there within that Fortune 500. Once you look at the the survey results, I think you're going to start to see some trends; some things that are really starting to stand out. And then from there, look at how you can prioritize what resources are available within your company, or maybe resources that you need to kind of hone on, and further put together so that those things can be shared. And then you start having conversations in a setting like this. If that's not happening, have those open conversations, and give people the opportunity to voice their opinions, their sentiments, about what it is that's being done through a DEIB standpoint. And then, from there, just continue to build off of it. It's kind of like that saying, you know, how do you—what is it? "How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time." I think that you just kind of got to take it one step at a time, and understand that it is going to take some effort. You're not going to be able to do everything at once. But it's okay. You can do it. Okay? You can make a difference with that. But just being a little, you know, strategic with how you go about it.
Jerrin Padre 53:21
Heather, anything to add?
Heather Shelton 53:23
Congrats on the roll girl! Fortune 500, doing your thing. I would say that you wouldn't be in the role if you couldn't do it. They saw something in you, you have what it takes. So I need you to look in the mirror every day—coaching coming out, right? I need you to look in the mirror and tell yourself like, "I'm a leader. I can do this right." But past that, again—like, just echoing off what Josh said. And after the surveys, having the conversation, letting everybody know that your experience isn't the only one; that there are others experiences, other people's experiences. And then you know, kind of taking the temperature of that. Getting other people's story, sharing those things. You as a leader will be able to facilitate that, and have people share stories. Ask people to ask questions. Like, it's your job to kind of get the conversation rolling, and being open to what you find, and being transparent with your employees. But at the end of the day, you got what it takes. So go do that girl! Do that.
Jerrin Padre 54:21
Mhmm!
Haley Moss 54:22
Y'all said it better than I can. But congratulations, number one, Michelle! Congratulations. And I love that you said you can't boil the ocean, and you don't have to be the savior or spokesperson for a community. And something that's really cool, when we do get into positions of power as marginalized folks, is that we're able to bring other people with us and uplift them. So it's also knowing when to pass the mic. When do we find someone who's maybe not as high on the corporate ladder, and being like, "This is someone whose story we need to highlight and this is how we can do that." Because you are not going to be the spokesperson for all black women in the company, nor should you be, and it's important to make sure that you elevate as many humans as possible to contribute to these conversations, and have that humanization that we've been talking about throughout the last hour or so. But I think it's just knowing that you have a huge potential to make a difference. You're there because you deserve to be there. Don't ever doubt that, just like Heather and Josh were saying, too, and just bring folks along with you. Because that's the best that we can do; realizing when it's beyond us, that we need to sometimes ask for help, or help the people who also have the same, or different, life experiences, or experienced the same forms of marginalization as us, to make sure that they're part of that conversation, too.
Jerrin Padre 55:36
All right, so a few more questions. This is one—this one is from Abigail. Abigail asks: In general, how can people move away from the us-versus-them mentality?
Josh Rich 55:54
Heather?
Heather Shelton 55:54
I was double-dutching you because you're the one that said the us-versus-them. So clearly that's for you!
Josh Rich 55:59
I thought you were jumping in, that's all. Okay.
Heather Shelton 56:04
No, I was pointing to you Josh! You gotta know where the hand is going. To you!
Josh Rich 56:06
Got it. Got it. So Abigail. Abigail, I think, in terms of moving away from the us-versus-them mentality, again, I would just go back to what it is that we were discussing before, and that's looking for common ground with with someone else that you're communicating with. And then just to, you know, generalize that statement a little bit more: in the workplace, again, look for ways that you can be a help to somebody else, right? Maybe they're working on a project, and you have some insight on how to move forward with that, say, "Hey, if you need some help, I'm available to assist you. Okay? No strings attached. I'm here to—you know, I'm here to help." Because, ultimately, in the work world, and in the business world, when one department is doing good, that helps all of the departments. If we think of ourselves as being, you know, segmented and not a part of the larger team, then we all will suffer as a result of that. So just look for ways to be a help to someone else, and find that common ground.
Heather Shelton 57:09
I like that a lot, Josh, that is exactly right. Finding the commonality between the two talking, we—you know, I say it a lot, which is: have the conversation. Everybody's story is unique. And remembering that, and bringing out those unique things helps just add color to your life, add color to your story, right? Like seeking out to learn, and to understand people who are different from you is amazing, and being upfront and honest about why you're doing that. Again, don't, you know, kind of be on the low. Just kind of go, "Hey, you know, I haven't grown up with someone—I haven't met anyone like you before. Can you tell me a little bit about your story?" You know? And then really wanting to know, and then do something with information too, you know? Share it, talk to other people. "Hey, have you met Tony over in finance? You know, like he has this great story." And just being like a people's champion, I think, would be really awesome.
Jerrin Padre 58:13
Haley, any thoughts?
Haley Moss 58:15
Just nodding in agreement.
Mike Cole 58:20
So Heather, you mentioned one thing. You said commonality, right? I think, Josh, you were in there, too. So this next question I want to jump to—it addresses that. So I think you'll get a chance to delve a little deeper, all three of you, on that. What would you recommend doing when finding commonality is not accepted within an organization? Where it is seen as offensive and degrading, instead of a positive thing? That's the question.
Heather Shelton 58:51
I know, I'm trying to understand the question. I don't know. Say the question one more time.
Mike Cole 58:56
So the organization that this individual is with, apparently commonality is not accepted within the organization. Where it is seen as offensive and degrading instead of a positive thing. I don't know that I can come up with anything to relate to that.
Haley Moss 59:11
I think it's this understanding of what commonality is supposed to mean. I think it's being [unintelligible, likely "confused"] with conformity, and that's why it's being seen as a negative. Not that we have something that threads us together as humans, more of "Oh, this is that. You're all the same." I think that's what's going on in that question is there's a misunderstanding of finding what we have in common versus we are all conforming to the same type of personality and story, but that's just my interpretation. That difference is not a bad thing. It's great that we're all different and that our brains work differently. We all have different life experiences, but there's always something that makes us so that we're relatable to other people. That's a really powerful good thing. But yes, it would kind of suck if we were all the same. At least that's kind of how I interpret that question. I hope that someone will let us know if I'm completely off base.
Jerrin Padre 1:00:00
Another hot take, I'm wondering if this question is just a nicer way of asking, "If we say one life matters, why do not all lives matter?" That's kind of what I'm interpreting it as. Which, maybe it's not, it might be completely different. But I feel like that is obviously an argument we've been hearing quite frequently throughout the past couple years.
Josh Rich 1:00:21
Yeah, you know, that is, you know, obviously a lot to unpack. But I think that there's a few things that we always want to keep at the forefront. One is a concept of groupthink, right? You know, when people are individualized, you may have a conversation, and we can really connect. Then when people are in a larger group, the loudest voice starts saying something, and maybe some people just kind of fall in line with whatever that thinking is, because they feel like they can relate. Because, let's face it, we all want to feel connected, right? We don't want to feel like we're off, you know, by ourselves, and just being ostracized for that matter. So if we can find some common ground—again, that's not a bad thing. But the difference is: are you blocking out those basic similarities that you have with someone else, and not really taking into account what their challenges may be? Right? Because if we don't take into account what their challenges may be, then it's very easy for us to be skewed, and think that our way of seeing things is the only way to see things. And if we get to a place like that, it's going to be really difficult to truly have an inclusive environment, right. So we kind of have to go against, you know, thinking that we know all of the answers. And it's just one way to look at a situation, and invite somebody else to come in, and have that conversation in a way that's going to help to bring them along. And, you know, hopefully—what? Bring us along in the process. So I think that's really important.
Jerrin Padre 1:01:55
I think, just to piggyback off of that Josh, I feel like the step one is we are all part of one race, which is the human race. And we all go through things, we all have highs and lows. They're not the same, but we can all relatively empathize or sympathize with other people. And then there's the next step, and then you'll hear the messaging around—well, you'll never want to say to someone, "Oh, I completely understand what you're going through." I know, obviously, a lot of people can take offense to that, because you don't know what they are going through 100 percent of the time. And I think that mixed messaging makes people a little bit confused, going back to the entire fear conversation, about not wanting to say the wrong thing. Or just the cognitive dissonance of, "I know that I'm supposed to—there's supposed to be a level of equity in the way that I think about everybody around me, and I'm supposed to find the commonalities. But I'm also not allowed to say that I understand somebody else's experience or perspective." And so I feel like that dissonance causes a lot of hesitance when approaching these conversations, especially in the corporate environment, because you have that extra layer of filter, and being when you're present at work.
Josh Rich 1:03:12
Hey, Heather, were you about to say something?
Heather Shelton 1:03:14
I was just thinking about when you go into conversations thinking that you know, everything. Thinking—assuming that you know everything about a person, versus like seeking to understand and then be understood. When you flip that perspective, and you go in trying to learn about something, versus trying to talk, I think that's where you can really have an impactful conversation. One where you learn and walk away, feeling understood at the same time. So I think it's like the intent of how you going in. Like, don't go in thinking that you do know, and don't be afraid to say that you thought it was one way, but it was another, you know? I think people don't want to own up to the fact that like, "Oh, man, I used to think that way. But I met such-and-such and they showed me like X, Y and Z. And now look." Because I think if we heard more stories like that, people would be open to change versus sitting around going like, "Oh, no. This person is the same way. I met one, I met them all." You know what I mean? Like, you just kind of just have to own it, and then keep it moving.
Josh Rich 1:04:19
You know, something else that I would just add there. And I really loved that comment that you made there, Heather, in terms of seeking first to understand rather than to be understood, because we need to check our motives, okay? When we're having these conversations. If you're sitting down at that proverbial table, and you're saying right from the beginning that there's nothing that that person over there on the other side of the table could say that's it's going to change my mind, then we've already lost that opportunity, in that sense. You have to come there being open. And so, in a corporate environment—you know, Jerrin, I heard you mentioned about corporate. I think it's important to set some ground rules, so to speak. And I use that word loosely in terms of "rules." But when we're talking about creating a safe space for these conversations, it is first: we need to assume positive intent from the other person, right? And vice versa. If we give each other that space there and we say, "Look, we're not going to say anything to unprofessional, right? But we're going to have a conversation. We're going to ask some questions, right, that maybe we would not have typically asked. But now we're in a space where nobody's here trying to look to poke holes in your rationale, in the sense of you're just going to be wrong. We're here to learn from each other. So please give me the opportunity to share my story, and why I believe this is important to me. And I'm going to give you the opportunity to do that." And then let's have some follow up questions there without an agenda. Let's just have the conversation. And that gives us the opportunity to move from point A to—even if we just go to point B, in that instance, that's still that still allows us to say we made some progress.
Jerrin Padre 1:06:08
Yeah. This is the last question. Do you want to take it, Mike?
Mike Cole 1:06:14
Yeah, I'll take it. So this is another—would be a baby question, but it's a big answer to unpack. "Could you please speak to the importance of teaching people to have difficult conversations?"
Heather Shelton 1:06:30
I think no one ever wants to be wrong. Like, "Raise your hand if you ever want to be wrong," says no one, right? So I think going into a conversation, and already knowing that being vulnerable from the jump, knowing that we all get it wrong. No one's perfect. No one's ever done everything the right way, said the right thing. But you have to set the table that you should be having difficult conversations. There should be a feedback loop that's going on in your role. If you don't hear—if it's always glitters and popcorn, like I'm sorry. Something's not—why'd I say glitters and popcorn?
Mike Cole 1:07:13
That's you.
Heather Shelton 1:07:13
It took me somewhere, Jerrin. But I'm just going vulnerable. I think that is the best way to have a difficult conversation. Owning up to the fact that you're not perfect, and inviting people to say, "Hey, we're gonna make mistakes. But then we learn from those." As long as you're learning from the mistakes that you make, it's all good. But if you just keep making the same mistake over and over and expecting a different outcome, that's when you have a problem in a company, in a relationship, in a friendship, right? So it's like, I always—especially even for myself in life—just go in with this vulnerability saying, "Hey, I don't know all the answers, but I want to know how you're feeling. I know I didn't do this right? Can you show me? Can you tell me how I can do it better next time?" And then owning up to that, and then being held accountable. Once everybody's come together, got it all out on the table, it's like, "Well, now, how do we hold each other accountable to what we discussed moving forward?"
Josh Rich 1:08:17
I'm thinking about that as well. As you were speaking, Heather, I have two small children, so a four-year-old and a six-year-old. And so they love Daniel Tiger. I'm kind of putting myself out there, right? So you know, I heard one of those Daniel Tiger songs in my head, as you were, you know, talking there, I won't try to sing it. But basically, it says, "It's okay to make mistakes. Try again." Right? And, you know, as I listen to you speak, I think that's really what people need to know. In terms of having those difficult conversations, none of us are going to be right all the time, as you've been talking about, right? And so because we're not going to be right all the time, again, just being being nice, right? If we just say it like that, being nice. Because people feel our energy. If they know that we are genuine with what it is—authentic, Heather, right? If we're being genuine and authentic, then they're gonna more than likely say, "You know what? I appreciate that. And I'm glad that we're having this conversation." Whereas if we are coming in, we're not being helpful, when we're being judgmental—I think I can use that word there too—then that's not going to, you know, be conducive for the types of results that any of us want, which is to really be able to get along. And to be, you know, dare I say innovative, for the work that we're doing.
Mike Cole 1:09:40
You know, I think as companies go, as well, teaching people to have difficult conversations—the company is really not responsible for teaching people to have difficult conversations. The company—to your point Josh, earlier, and to Heather, you as well—is to create that environment that it's okay to have those difficult conversations. Because if you don't, and if you start having those difficult conversations, then you get pegged as a micromanager or someone who is—you know, your nose is in everybody's business. To me, in my humble opinion, it's all about creating that culture, and creating that safe space to be able to do that. So from a corporate perspective, if you don't have that culture within your company, it's important to build that culture. You know, while all along teaching people that it's okay, but that underlying culture and that underlying safe space has to be there. Otherwise, it's interpreted as a completely different thing in my opinion. Is that a mic drop, Heather?
Josh Rich 1:10:43
*laughing*
Heather Shelton 1:10:45
Boom, Mike. Boom. Way to finish a podcast, Mike.
Jerrin Padre 1:10:48
I know!
Mike Cole 1:10:51
Well, here we are at the end of our season one finale. Just want to thank everyone for listening. We thank our panelists. I thank those of you that participated; amazing participation from the group! It was just a wonderful event. Thank you all for being a part of it. And, as always, thank you for listening to Peoplecast.
Josh Rich 1:11:10
Thank you!
Mike Cole 1:11:27
Thanks for listening! Remember to subscribe to Peoplecast, so you're in-the-know when new episodes are released. Also, if the platform you're listening on offers reviews, leave one and let us know your thoughts. Peoplecast is a production of Media Partners Corporation. To chat with someone about training for the topics discussed on this episode, or any other industry-leading, award-winning training topics, call 800-408-5657 or go to mediapartners.com. Again, thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time on Peoplecast!