Introducing Amber Cabral – speaker, author, and inclusion consultant. Episode 2 is all about the importance of allyship and advocacy when it comes to inclusive service. Tune in as Amber walks us through:
MORE ABOUT AMBER:
Amber Cabral is a speaker, author, and inclusion consultant. She is the founder of Cabral Co, a diversity, equity and inclusive leadership focused consulting firm and chairs a non-profit called Brown Girls Do Ballet. Her first book, Allies and Advocates: Creating an Inclusive and Equitable Culture published on Wiley Press in November of 2020.
CONNECT WITH AMBER
LinkedIn | Instagram | cabralco.com
CONNECT WITH US
Website | LinkedIn | YouTube | Instagram | Facebook | Twitter
Introducing Amber Cabral – speaker, author, and inclusion consultant. Episode 2 is all about the importance of allyship and advocacy when it comes to inclusive service. Tune in as Amber walks us through:
MORE ABOUT AMBER:
Amber Cabral is a speaker, author, and inclusion consultant. She is the founder of Cabral Co, a diversity, equity and inclusive leadership focused consulting firm and chairs a non-profit called Brown Girls Do Ballet. Her first book, Allies and Advocates: Creating an Inclusive and Equitable Culture published on Wiley Press in November of 2020.
CONNECT WITH AMBER
LinkedIn | Instagram | cabralco.com
CONNECT WITH US
Website | LinkedIn | YouTube | Instagram | Facebook | Twitter
Mike Cole 0:06
Hello everyone and welcome to Peoplecast My name is Mike Cole, I'm your host, and with me today as always is our co host and producer extraordinaire, Jerrin Padre.
Jerrin Padre 0:17
Hiya!
Mike Cole 0:18
Hiya? Is that the—
Jerrin Padre 0:20
Hiya!
Mike Cole 0:20
Is that the new greeting? Hiya?
Jerrin Padre 0:21
That's it today!
Mike Cole 0:22
Okay.
Jerrin Padre 0:23
New season, new me.
Mike Cole 0:24
Yeah. So as ushe (usual) what's the weather like there? And are you in LA or Seattle? Where you at today?
Jerrin Padre 0:30
I'm in LA today. Thank you for asking about the weather report. It's smoky. It's 79 degrees and a little bit smoky. So it looks a bit postapocalyptic right now. I'm not sure where the fires are coming from.
Mike Cole 0:43
You guys are okay, though? I mean, other than air quality probably being in the toilet. You're not in any danger of fires or anything?
Jerrin Padre 0:49
No, no. Thankfully not.
Mike Cole 0:52
That's good. You're gonna ask me the weather here?
Jerrin Padre 0:54
Yes, I was just about to do that.
Mike Cole 0:58
Yep so we are—
Jerrin Padre 0:59
How's the weather over there? Oh, you're just gonna go straight into it.
Mike Cole 1:02
So we—so here's the thing: last night, 47 degrees here and Good Old Northwest Arkansas. So fall is almost here. This weekend is going to be back up in the 90s though. So that's things. I'm a fall person. I'm ready for all the things fall, except for the leaves. Right?
Jerrin Padre 1:19
What?
Mike Cole 1:19
Where I live we—yeah, we have so many trees, leaves fall like... I can hear them. I told my wife the other day I said, "I hear the leaves falling when I'm in the house." Because guess who has to, you know, get them out of the yard and off the driveway. That's me. So I have a love hate relationship with fall.
Jerrin Padre 1:36
That. I mean, that makes sense. I still have my limited Southern California scope on weather. So I'm like, "Wow, the leaves are changing color. How magical! That seems romantic."
Mike Cole 1:48
I wouldn't call it romantic when you have to blow a mountain of leaves off your yard. But that's fine. I mean—and I mean, we're in an area of the country that color change is really pretty, you know, in the Boston mountains and the Ozarks. So, that's the benefit is you can overlook the work that has to be done because of the color change, right?
Jerrin Padre 2:06
Oh, yeah, the scenery is worth it. Well, I feel like we have three different time zones today. We have Pacific, Central, and we also have Eastern.
Mike Cole 2:16
Well, I'm not an Eastern and you're in Pacific. So we have another guest on the show. Right?
Jerrin Padre 2:20
We do!
Mike Cole 2:22
So that's a really good segue Jerrin. I appreciate that.
Jerrin Padre 2:26
Thank you.
Mike Cole 2:27
We've never done a timezone segue. So I like that.
Jerrin Padre 2:29
I know three time zones. It's great.
Mike Cole 2:31
I know, it is! Well, let's just get right to it. So with us today, we have Amber Cabral. So Amber is all the titles, but some of the most notable: Inclusion Strategist, Certified Coach, Speaker. She is the author of Allies and Advocates: Creating an Inclusive and Equitable Culture. And we are thrilled to have Amber on the show today. So welcome, Amber, how are you today?
Amber Cabral 2:58
I'm doing great. I was just chuckling in your description of Northwest Arkansas trees. I'm like, "Gosh, that is so true." I always used to say the sky there was the most beautiful sky ever. It's so clear, don't light pollution.
Mike Cole 3:13
Yeah, it is. I mean, it's—you can actually look up and see the stars. So, that's a cool thing. So yeah. I just hate the leaves.
Amber Cabral 3:20
I am actually in the Eastern Time Zone. You are indeed correct.
Jerrin Padre 3:25
Where are you hailing from right now, Amber?
Amber Cabral 3:27
I am dialing in from Atlanta, Georgia.
Jerrin Padre 3:30
Atlanta.
Jerrin Padre 3:32
I want to visit so bad.
Mike Cole 3:33
Yeah, about two hours east of the Central Time Zone. I think
Amber Cabral 3:38
Yeah, that's not far at all. Yeah, it's not that far. You hop over to Alabama, and you're right in central time.
Mike Cole 3:44
There you go.
Jerrin Padre 3:46
Cool. Well, we have kind of a new icebreaker to kick off this season. And it's not going to be as rapid fire as before, but still in "This or That" vein, and it's gonna be focused on our theme of inclusive service. So Mike, why don't you kick that off?
Mike Cole 4:03
I would love to Jerrin. Amber, I have two questions for you. They're really simple questions, but probably going to evoke a lot of emotion and feeling right.
Amber Cabral 4:12
Okay.
Mike Cole 4:13
And so around the idea of customer service, would you—if you were on a website—deal with a chatbot or real person?
Amber Cabral 4:22
I would prefer a real person.
Mike Cole 4:24
What's been your experience, though?
Amber Cabral 4:26
Chatbot.
Jerrin Padre 4:27
Always a chatbot.
Mike Cole 4:28
How do you know? I mean, do you ever have that moment of, "Is this a real person I'm talking to" or what flags do you have that it's not a real person?
Amber Cabral 4:36
Um, that's a good question. I—the conversation doesn't feel fluid. There are some nuances in human communication that you have a really hard time programming into AI. And so you know, just kind of that natural zhush. So I kind of know, you know, probably by the end of the second sentence like, "Okay, this is automated." And it's unfortunate because I kind of decided I don't want to talk anymore.
Mike Cole 5:12
And also when you pull your phone out and you start looking for, "Okay, what's the phone number for this company, I'll just call them." Right?
Amber Cabral 5:17
Absolutely.
Mike Cole 5:18
Yeah, my trigger is one when I get the question, "So what can I help you with today?" "I need help with my bill." And then the response comes back, "That's great. I would love to help you with I need help with my bill." Right? So it's just a copy paste of what you put in there. So yeah.
Jerrin Padre 5:33
Those robots clearly went to couples therapy because they know how to actively listen very, very well.
Mike Cole 5:38
Restate right? You get to restate and yeah. Okay, next question. Um, and this one is near and dear to my heart, probably as well as to yours too. Self checkout or actual cashier?
Amber Cabral 5:51
I am here for the self checkout. Yeah, I am here for the self checkout. I mean, occasionally, I'm okay with a cashier. But like, I feel like it's one of those jobs where—you're right near and dear to my heart, given my retail background—folks are going to be like, you know, a bit happier and perkier at the top of your shift and a bit happier and perkier at the bottom of your shift. And then I think in the middle of there, it just kind of becomes this like glaze over. And I don't always want to manage that energy. Like I can go ahead and use the self checkout. Now. If I am checking out with something that requires like, you know, some support in some way, like people have to check your ID.
Mike Cole 6:33
Or a gift card or something like that.
Amber Cabral 6:35
Or a gift card. Yeah, like things like that, then yeah, I'll go ahead and, you know, go through and check out with the person but self checkout? Absolutely.
Mike Cole 6:46
Jerrin, what about you? Are you self checkout or actual cashier?
Jerrin Padre 6:50
I think I'm self checkout. But I can usually suss out whether or not a self checkout is going to actually require me to end up having to interact with another human being, because you'll see like five people in front of you and the self checkout line buzz for help. So in those moments, it's not great. But I do love the convenience of the self checkout. Absolutely. And when I was a kid, for whatever reason, I just thought bagging groceries was just the coolest thing ever. And like working the register and being able to use the scanner, just all of those little gadgets and gizmos excited me, and so I still feel that way. As a grown adult. As a 25 year old woman, I still get the thrill of scanning something.
Mike Cole 7:30
That was—my first job was bagging groceries.
Amber Cabral 7:33
Oh, wow.
Mike Cole 7:33
Bagging groceries and shagging carts in the parking lot. So I—and this was okay, I'm gonna date myself, right? This is like extremely dating myself. This was before UPC codes. This was one thing we had to actually enter in manual prices. In my tenure as cashier and bagger of groceries, UPC's came along, and we're like, "This is the most amazing thing!" Then it became a competition to see how fast you could scan. So anyway, I digress.
Amber Cabral 8:03
I actually remember watching people put in—so I mean, you know, dating yourself, however that may be—but I remember seeing that. And I also was very similar to you. Jerrin. I really wanted to check myself out. I wanted to use the scanner, I wanted to key in the pricing and look up the fruit, and all that stuff.
Jerrin Padre 8:20
So cool.
Amber Cabral 8:21
It was definitely—I do get a little jolt of excitement at being able to do that myself, so I can relate.
Jerrin Padre 8:28
I am so glad I'm not the only one. Thank you for knowing. Well, speaking of first jobs, kind of in the vein of customer service. We know that like a lot of first time jobs end up being service oriented. So we were wondering what your first job was, Amber?
Amber Cabral 8:44
Yeah, my first job was actually at the library. I was a library aide, which essentially meant that I collected books that were left out once they were pulled by patrons, and sorted them, put them on cards, and went and put them back on the shelves. So that was my first job.
Jerrin Padre 9:03
Was this like a summer job? How old were you?
Amber Cabral 9:06
Oh gosh, I think I was—I think I was 16, maybe 17. It was not a summer job. It was—I think I started it in the summer, and then I continued through into the school year. So I would like go after school and work for a few hours. But the library closed at nine o'clock. And you know, in terms of what was close enough to where I was living at the time, I could walk to either, you know, a fast food joint and work there. Or I could walk to the library and I was like, "Well, let's see if we can get a job at the library." You know, like I didn't necessarily want to work in food service, and so I would get dropped off after school, and drop my backpack, and walk up the road and work at the library for the next four hours. Which was, you know, interesting because I spent a lot of time in high school in the library because it was like the one place that my mom would, like, not question where I was. I'm going to library I could like stay out until nine o'clock at night, and she wouldn't ask any questions, and so I often would go. So yeah, it was just kind of like a natural progression when I started working there.
Jerrin Padre 10:14
Anything you learned from that first job experience? Or, looking back, was there like one thing that you took away from having that job?
Amber Cabral 10:22
Oh, you know, I believe in being honest. So I'm gonna be completely honest, at this moment. Um, I learned that I can't do monotony, I need change. Oh, and you know what else I realized? I love books. Like I like to read them, though. Like, I didn't really, you know, the putting them back part was, you know, just what I had to do. But I did discover a lot of books. I did understand better why books were where they were in the library. And that was kind of cool. But in terms of just things that I took away, I knew after I left that job that like doing something that was going to require me to do something over and over and over was going to be probably not the best fit for my, you know, me staying there, basically. And so. So yeah, I didn't I don't even know if I worked there for a full year. But I valued it. Like I said, it did give me a lot of exposure to just even understanding, you know, just all of the different books that are in a library and just what people are reading, you know. The stuff you see over and over on tables was really interesting. So yeah, that's what I walked away with.
Mike Cole 11:30
So question for you there. And I mean, this is going back to personal experience. I mean, for me, anytime I opened a book, that smell would immediately transport me back to a time right? Even now I'll open—maybe not so new books, but a book that's got some age on it, I'll open it up, and I'm immediately back in high school in the library, researching for, you know, a paper that I had to write for World History or something like that. Did you find yourself you know—so let's put that in perspective of let's say you worked in fast food. I've got friends who have worked in fast food, and they're like, "You know what, I don't really care if I see another hamburger as long as I live." Did you have that same feeling for books when you left? Or did you still have some nostalgic feeling for a book?
Amber Cabral 12:17
No, I didn't feel that way about books when I left. That's a good point. I actually have a couple—you know kinda in that same vein—I have a couple friends that work as sound engineers, and they like totally can't use headphones anymore. Like, they hear all the sound distortions. And so they're like, "Yeah, nope, I can't do headphones, like at all."
Editor's Note 12:34
(Tell me about it)
Amber Cabral 12:34
And they're really picky about speakers. So I can see how having like that super exposure can make you a little bit averse to something. But thankfully, that didn't happen for me with books. I always knew I wanted to be an author. I love words, I like you know, the opportunity that they give you to connect with people. I like being able to share ideas and having, you know, just the power to describe things in really impactful ways. And so I can't imagine anything would like actually take me away from books.
Mike Cole 13:04
So in that same vein, right, we're talking about memories. Do you have a memory that kind of foreshadowed where you are today? I mean, whether you knew it or not, at the time, is there a specific memory that kind of has brought you where you're at today?
Amber Cabral 13:19
Yes, actually! You know, working in the space of inclusion and diversity, what I end up doing a lot of is helping people to understand, and bringing people along on the journey of change, because it's a very evolving space. You know, the conversations that we were having five years ago, and the conversations we're having today, are very different. And so you have to be able to change and shift and evolve. And so you know, kind of harkening back to your last question, I knew I wanted to do something with my life where I got the chance to see evolution and difference that was not going to always be monotonous. But the moment I think that probably sticks out to me the most would be when I was a little girl, I used to write my Z's backwards. I didn't feel like Z's made sense to open to the left, every other alphabet opens to the right if they're open. And so Z's did not make sense to me. I was like, "This does not belong this way." And so I made a very conscious pointed effort to make my Z's backwards and I was a great student. So I always got A's on my papers, and, you know, they'd circle my Z's, but I would ignore it and continue on. Until I got to third grade when I had a teacher that just flat out said like, "If you don't turn your Z's around, I'm just gonna not grade the paper, like you're gonna not get a passing grade." And I remember being so mad about it because it was like, No, this makes sense. Like, look at the alphabet. It is wrong. This is the way that letter should go and obviously I've gone on to correct my Z's. If I ever write anything for you, you will be able to verify that, but I remember just how passionate I was about something making sense, and wanting to explain why and to—you know like, "Look this is the way this should be. Here is the evidence of that." And that passion comes to life in the work I do today. Like I'm still very much the person who is eager to help people see how things need to be different, and, you know, should evolve, and have a different perspective. Now obviously as an adult, I'm less inclined to like debate about, you know, which way folks write their letters, but that same fire is definitely something I get to lean into in the work that I do today.
Jerrin Padre 15:40
Amber, another similarity. I used to do the same thing with J's. I used to face them the other way, because it didn't make sense to me that it opened to the left. Yeah.
Mike Cole 15:51
But isn't that a "t"? Is a backwards J, just a t? I'm just saying.
Jerrin Padre 15:56
With the dot? There's no cross!
Amber Cabral 15:59
Yeah, it's got a dot on it and it hangs down. Like further.
Jerrin Padre 16:02
It's a completely different letter, Mike! The composition is completely different.
Mike Cole 16:09
Sorry, this is gonna get into a Lady Gaga Cheerios moment, I will drop this one. I'll just leave it there.
Jerrin Padre 16:15
In print and in cursive, very different letter. But it's okay.
Mike Cole 16:20
I accept your opinion. Yes, I'm—I agree.
Jerrin Padre 16:25
Anywho. It's interesting that it had to do the letters because you are now a writer, and an author. So your book is titled, Allies and Advocates: Creating an Inclusive and Equitable Culture. And so this season, as we've stated, is all about inclusive service. And that's just across industries. So what do you feel like the importance of allyship and advocacy is, in the conversation around inclusive service or customer service? The service industry overall?
Amber Cabral 16:55
Yeah, I think that allyship is about service. I think that that's ultimately what we're asking folks to do when we're looking for allies is to show up in a space of service. And so being able to be impactful in customer service, or inclusive service, or just service in general, really requires the same muscles that I think allyship requires. You know, allyship requires you to take a look at what you have access to, and what you know, and what resources are available to you, and think about how you can use them to help someone else. And that's essentially what customer service is about; it's being able to service, you know, folks who are in a position where they need some support. And I mean, that could be something as simple as, you know, "Can you point me in the direction of where the TVs are?" You know, something far more complex, like, "Can you help me understand my health insurance policy, so I know what I'm covered for when I go to the doctor next week?" You know, it's still recognizing that people need partnership and support and resources, and we don't always have them for ourselves. And so we have to rely on and connect with people around us to serve in that allyship or service position. And so it's super important, you know. And then there are also jobs that require advocacy. I remember, I used to work in health care, before Diversity Equity and Inclusion was a job. I didn't know this was gonna be my job because it didn't exist. But, you know, when I was working at Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan, I used to work in the grievance area, which is not quite as morbid as it sounds. It was definitely, you know, kind of the area where a customer might call in and say, "Listen, I really need you to cover this service. Here's the circumstance that I need it covered under." And they could appeal to get coverage for something that the actual health plan had otherwise not provided coverage for, and I had to be an advocate. My job was to advocate, to help customers get the coverage that they needed. And that's the same thing. That's me understanding what the laws are around this thing, or what the policies might be for the health plan, or taking a look at the medical records that are submitted, and having the medical director review them and prepare them to be able to walk through that content so that I could service the customer. So I think that the terms are incredibly entangled, and regardless of what the industry might be they're going to work together. And it's going to continue to amplify the importance—if you're doing customer service. well—it's going to amplify the importance of allyship and advocacy, regardless of what the industry might be.
Mike Cole 19:37
So that kind of leads into the next question. So you mentioned, you know, being in the healthcare industry, and being in the role that you were in. In your book, you mentioned practical steps toward being a good ally. And I'm sure you had to do that in that role you just mentioned. So one suggestion you made, it was the importance of building meaningful and trusting relationships—which I would assume that was probably important In that role—but specifically with people who are different from you. What are some ways to do that, especially with people who maybe are a bit shy or reserved? How can they kind of make those authentic connections?
Amber Cabral 20:14
Yeah, relationship building is super critical, I think, in every role. It was absolutely something I had to lean into when I was working in, you know, the grievance and appeals area, and a health plan, down to just having folks I could reach out to across the business to get clarity about things in the organization, as well as building relationships with the medical directors that were going to be, you know, reviewing the documents that I would collect from the customer or their respective, you know, health care providers. That's definitely important. But as far as, you know, just how you do that, there's a few ways. So I'm going to tweak your question a little bit.
Jerrin Padre 20:52
Please.
Mike Cole 20:53
That's fine. Yes, that's fine.
Amber Cabral 20:55
Just a tad, just because I think there's a layer in there that's really important. First, I don't know that people are always sold on the importance of building relationships with people that are different from them. A lot of us tend to naturally gravitate towards building relationships with people that are a lot like us. If you look at your personal friend group now, you probably have a lot of folks that are interested in things that you're interested in, that are similar to you in age or experience or—you know, you have these similarities that you connect over. And so the idea of connecting with someone that is not the same as you can feel a little bit strange, right? You're like, "Well, why?" You know, like—I mean, I share something with these folks that I've elected to build relationships with. And the "why" it's important is really what helps us to have a broader perspective and worldview. It's the difference between saying, "Oh my gosh, that looks disgusting to eat," versus actually having the opportunity to, like, try it, you know? And so, we want to put ourselves in positions where we get exposure to things so that our perspectives are shaped not just by what we are assuming something might be, but instead by, you know, experiences with that. And the only way you get those experiences are by engaging with folks that have access to them in ways that are different than you. And so that's—it's super important. It's important to the way we decide, you know, how taxes should be paid, and how cities are built. And, you know, what kinds of schools our kids go to. It's thinking about the folks outside of ourselves and the people that are just like us, and how they're going to benefit or perhaps be even impacted by all of those things. And we don't do a good job of that, particularly Americans; we're very centered on what's going to be best for us. And so I encourage people to build meaningful and trusting relationships with folks that are different than you because it can open your eyes to some of the ways that you are living, and ways that you could be living, that may make a huge impact on how others around you are experiencing equity, or safety, or communication, or access. And so I just wanted to kind of circle back and, like, make it clear why it's important before I talked about how you do it, so that folks kind of get that part too.
Amber Cabral 23:10
So the way that you do it is—you know, you have to purposely make some connections in spaces where you don't necessarily feel a sense of similarity. That means that you can connect with folks just merely because there's an interest. One of the best relationships that I built with someone who I would have never in a million years assumed I would have been friends with is this Singaporean woman—who actually used to work with me back when I was working at Walmart—who reached out to me because she heard me on a training I did that was virtual. And this was before virtual was, like, the way things were done, you know? And so she chimed in as a participant and engaged in the chat and then sent a follow up note after saying, you know, "Hey, I felt like I learned a lot from you. And I'd love to sit down and have some more conversation, and maybe we can get together for dinner." And I'll be honest, at that point in my life, I was a little caught off guard by it and wondered did she maybe have some tough feedback for me or something, and was skeptical. But I did join her for dinner, and up to that point—of course, you know, I've been in corporate for a while, and I had relationships with folks who were Asian—but I didn't have any true and deep and meaningful friendships. And she is, like, one of my closest friends today. And it was because she was curious. She was curious about something I said in a training and she was willing to go ahead and stick herself out there and say, "I'd like to talk more about that." That's how you do it. You lean into your curiosity as you engage people that have perspectives and worldviews that you might not have considered. You know, you watch movies that you would not have otherwise watched because they're not what your friends are watching. You read books by authors that don't look just like you or the folks that you hang around. And you start to get the opportunity to see a world that is otherwise going to be purposely hidden from you. And if you're a shy person, or a little bit reserved, you kind of get to control your own experience. You can elect to do that, you know, in 2021, virtually. You can engage folks online. If you want, you can even make sure that when you are connecting with people you're doing it in environments that provide you some degree of structure. There are, you know, online virtual activities, you can do calligraphy online, you can do ballet online now, right? And so you have the benefit of leaning into the activity and not feeling like you're forced into conversation. Whatever it looks like, I think it's just—it's an incredibly important muscle to flex if we're ever going to get to the place where inclusion is really a thing that feels like something that's happening around us instead of this idea that we're all striving for. I know that was a lot of words, y'all. Sorry about that!
Mike Cole 25:50
Oh, no, that's fine. I'm now questioning every Facebook group that I'm a member of right now. Because I agree. We do! As humans, we gravitate toward things we like, things we know. And it's that affinity bias that we start just kind of surrounding ourselves with that. So, yeah, your answer to that sparked a lot of thought in me about, "Okay, I really do need to kind of take a look at what I'm associating with, and where I'm kind of drawing some of that." Whether it's appreciation, or whether it's affirmation that I'm looking for, it's definitely something that we should probably call into question so.
Jerrin Padre 26:26
Or just the desire to want to feel understood and related to by another human being. Like, I feel like that feeling is so human, which explains why we have an affinity bias. It's what kept us alive. But I think what your answers sparked for me, Amber, is the opportunity, actually, that I think a lot of service workers have to flex that muscle because they're interacting with so many different people. They're forced to interact with so many different people every single day, and you're getting paid for it. So I think it's important to look at that as an opportunity to step outside of your comfort zone and actually connect with people that you're serving, interacting with.
Amber Cabral 27:11
Yeah, I think that the other thing that's really important—and I talk about this a lot in the work that I do—is, like, get over this idea that you're owed comfort. Like, we run toward comfort. We will, you know—we will like literally not consider people's safety or, you know, just all kinds of things that we will do, just for our own comfort, I want to be comfortable. And so I'm gonna position myself in a way to do that. And we do it in really simple ways. And we do it in really, you know, huge ways. And if we're just willing to, you know, just be a little uncomfortable. You know, check out a podcast by some indigenous folks, if you're not indigenous, you know? Or, maybe start your day, you know, if you're a coffee drinker with some coffee from a different part of the world that you've never been to, and see what's different about it, or whatever. Like, there's so many opportunities, particularly in the world we live in today where almost everything is available with the click of a button, like at your fingertips in a day or two. It's almost just irresponsible to just resign yourself to your own familiarity, and I just don't think you can really show up and be an ally or an advocate if you aren't willing to shake some of those spaces up.
Mike Cole 28:23
I spent a lot of time in my early career behind the counter serving people and just being a cashier. And I got into a little bit more of a service industry with working in a photo lab. And I don't know if you've ever worked in a photo lab before but processing pictures taken by customers, it was a very personal experience, because you were kind of getting a glimpse into their weekend or their vacation or their, you know, child's wedding, or something like that. It was really personal. And we had one customer who was branded as difficult to deal with. And I was the manager of this photo lab, and I just started working, and then I'll never forget one of the folks that worked with me in the lab, they looked over there, and they're like, "Oh, there she is." I'm like, "There who is?" And they're like, "It's the most difficult customer in the world that you'll ever deal with. I refuse to wait on her when she comes to the counter." And I go, "Why is that?" "Well, she's so demanding!" And I'm like, "Okay." Anyway, a couple of days later, I looked up and she was at the counter, and the first thing she does is put down this whole pile of pictures and say, "These are all wrong." I'm like, "Well explain to me what wrong means." She said, "Well the color is off. They're awful, they're horrible." And just a natural response on my part was, "Well what can I do to fix them?" She's like, "Well fix the color, you idiot." And so I took the pictures I went back and I'm like, "Oh gosh, they're right. She is a difficult customer to deal with." And I got the pictures fixed and you know, she came back a day or so later to pick them up. And she was looking at them and she's like, "These are good, you did a good job," or I forget the exact comments but, you know, apparently I had appeased of the difficult customer, and I felt a win for that, right? And so, over time, she would come back and I would be the first one to go wait on her because I really didn't find it uncomfortable to wait on her. I just knew she wanted things a certain way. And I felt like it was my responsibility to do that right? Not just as manager, but just because that's part of good customer service. And it was interesting, because over time, other people that I worked with are like, "How do you deal with her?" I'm like, "Just hear her out. All she wants to do is to be heard, and for somebody to take care of her issue." And over time, it didn't become an issue anymore. Over time, everybody enjoyed waiting on her. I mean, she became one of the best customers that we had. So I fully would agree it's all part of that, you know, comfort zone that we find ourselves in. And in the service industry, I think it's very difficult because you find yourself in those situations, and it's all about how you react.
Amber Cabral 30:53
Yeah, yeah, definitely the case. And, you know, I think that there's also some muscle for recognizing when we have an opportunity to improve. I think sometimes we automatically assume when someone's unhappy that it's them, you know? And sometimes it's really just that we need to be open to the possibility that there's an opportunity for things to be better. Like, what you said in that story that stood out to me was that you were like, "Okay, let me try to change this." I sometimes think that when we are resigned to our comfort, it gets really hard for us to be open to the possibility that we are incorrect or have a chance to be better. And I think that allyship and advocacy requires that kind of self assessment and reconsideration in order for it to work. But it is definitely not a muscle that's often encouraged. We do tend to kind of—you know, just as you described in your story—just kind of go, "Okay, this is painful." And, you know, kind of gripe about it, or be frustrated, or choose to disengage. You know, just like your colleague did, versus actually considering what kind of amazing outcome you can have if you just lead it.
Jerrin Padre 32:01
So we've got two more questions for you, Amber, and then I think we're going to be at time. While you're on the topic of reflecting on ways we can challenge ourselves and step outside of our comfort zone and challenge our affinity bias. I know you also talk a lot about standards. And so why would you say it's important to recognize and question our standards when it comes to conversations around privilege, systemic racism, and allyship?
Amber Cabral 32:27
Yeah, I think that we have to recognize that we live in a world where a lot of things are handed to us. You know, when you join a job, someone teaches you what to do; when you go to your first party, someone tells you how to dress; when you have your first date, someone tells you how to behave. Like there are a lot of frameworks that are just handed to us: the standard of operation, if you will, right? And we don't often question that. You know, we may even realize that there are some challenges, there are some things that are not working well. And we will continue to operate in it because this is the standard. This is the way this is done. I'll give an example I'm surviving right now actually. I live in a high rise. There's a lot of folks in this building, it's a you know, pretty tall building. And as you can imagine, the mail over the pandemic has quadrupled because folks stopped going out to you know, run those errands and started getting everything delivered to kind of continue to shelter in place. And so the mail process was always the mail would come in, the concierge person would organize it, and then you would, when you went to pick up your mail, just pop over to that shelf and grab your packages. Well, the room that was assigned for that was suddenly four sizes too small, you know? And here we are looking for packages, and folks can't find stuff. And it's overflowing into different areas. And I had this moment where I kind of went to the leasing office because I was missing a package. And the statement that was made to me was, "Well this is how we've managed the packages from the beginning. Like I don't know what you want us to do." And I said, "Well, I want you to consider that the way you were doing it isn't effective, and change it. Look at what options you have available. Maybe the overflow room needs to be changed, maybe we need more space, maybe there needs to be a different process, a different standard." And we just don't do a good job of looking at that; we are attached to "this is how it's done." And so when you're talking about privilege, when you're talking about systemic or systematic racism, when you're talking about being an ally, when you're talking about customer service, as time changes and things evolve, we have to be willing to look at the possibility that the way we were doing it isn't working. It's gotta be different now. You know, we have a different world, and I think what the pandemic or Panini or whatever you're calling it.
Jerrin Padre 34:49
Patricia.
Amber Cabral 34:49
Patricia, you know, whatever it is that we are all navigating. I think that's one of the things that has been like really starkly illuminated is that like, yeah, the way you thought worked isn't working. We've got to figure out how to lead from behind counters, or behind screens, and be able to do both in some cases, and how does that come to life? You know, I think we've had a lot of conversations that started out being, "Okay, let's get ready to return to work, or let's get back to normal." And I've tried to remind people like, no we're on to the next normal now, you know? Things are going to be different from here on out; those standards have to change the world is—we're not going back to typewriters, email is where it's at, you know? And so, we have to be open to that, when it comes to things like privilege. You know, it might have seemed like, before, that privilege was something that was not to be talked about, or that was potentially seen as a negative. And instead, you know, we can start doing the labor of recognizing, "Oh, if I can figure out where I have some privilege, that gives me an opportunity to serve as an ally." Which many of us are trying to do. I mean, a year ago, I couldn't say racist inside of any organization. Now I have people calling me up, like, "Can we talk about racism?" You know, that's different. The standard is different now. And so, you know, I want people to be willing to question their own processing, to question their own standards, to question themselves, and they're like, "This is difficult." Ask yourself at the end of the day, you know, what was hard about today? How do I want my life to feel? What standard or perspective can I shift to help me get there. All of that is a part of being inclusive as well. Because, I mean, while I do think that sometimes we resign ourselves to our own comfort, some of the ways that we are willing to be uncomfortable also can be problematic, because we're just hankering ourselves to a standard that really isn't working for anyone. And if we're trying to make change, big change, privilege change, allyship change, you know, customer service change, we've got to be willing to shift those standards.
Mike Cole 36:42
So still kind of in that vein, you mentioned being uncomfortable, right? And we've talked a good bit on this show about being comfortable with the uncomfortable. We've talked a bit about starting those conversations, and especially in customer service, right? It's still in the vein of customer service or inclusive service. In some cases, you find yourself maybe having to apologize, right? So whether it's apologizing for saying the wrong thing, or whether it's apologizing for poor service. You mentioned in the book, there are core parts to an apology. So maybe in the next minute or two, can you kind of distill that down for us: the proper parts of an apology?
Amber Cabral 37:25
Yeah, absolutely. I talk about apologies in every training class I teach because we're largely really terrible at it. And so, you know, if you just kind of want to know base level how to apologize, an apology has two parts. The first part is "I apologize for..." the second part is "moving forward, I will..." That is a impactful apology, what you're essentially doing is saying, "I realized I broke it, here's what I'm going to do to not break it going forward." And so that can work for something simple. I apologize for mispronouncing your name, moving forward, I'll make sure to say it correctly, right? That's a meaningful apology. It's not, "I'm sorry, I hurt your feelings. Oh, I didn't mean it that way." It's, "I am sorry for this thing I did. I apologize for my remarks about Latina talent. Moving forward, I'll be more responsible about my bias before speaking publicly." That's a meaningful apology. I think if we could just get—if I could wave a magic wand across, like, everybody, customer service, folks. Just everyone. I would absolutely make sure that everyone knew how to just apologize. And I can't tell you how many people have emailed me after hearing that, like, "Listen, I've used that on my spouse. And it's absolutely magic." So for those of y'all who are listening, that are married, you can definitely use it in that space, too.
Mike Cole 38:37
I just wrote that down. I really—I mean, I haven't gotten to that part in the book, I think. But yeah, that's a precursor to something that I will definitely take to heart. This conversation has been eye opening, enlightening. Jerrin, I'm sure you have the same same feelings. And we, you know, have been truly looking forward to this interview because it's just interesting to be able to compare your work and put it under the lens of inclusive service. And I definitely thank you for being able to make that connection because it's important work, and the work that you do is applicable across many different industries. And we certainly just want to thank you for being on the show today.
Amber Cabral 39:20
Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I always tell people inclusion's everywhere. It's in the simple day-to-day, you know, kind of mundane stuff. It's in the really serious powerful stuff. And so if we can just kind of remind ourselves of that, I think we all have a chance to show up as allies and advocates in whatever it is that we're doing. Even if it's a quick job or if it's a lifetime job.
Jerrin Padre 39:39
Absolutely. Hey, Amber, where can people find you?
Amber Cabral 39:44
Yeah, if you're interested in just kind of the best place to find learnings you can always find me on LinkedIn, I'm under my real name. So Amber Cabral. If you're looking to figure out how inclusion shows up in like real life, which I think is a struggle for folks, Instagram's probably the best place for you to connect with me. And I'm all the way 100% myself there, and I remind people to live their dimensions. And then lastly if you're just kind of looking to connect as in, "I'm looking for some training for my company or school or business or whatever," you can always just hop out to cabralco.com and reach out to us that way.
Mike Cole 40:20
Yeah, certainly thank you again for being on the show. Jerrin thank you, as always, for being the best co host ever.
Jerrin Padre 40:28
You too!
Mike Cole 40:29
And for all the listeners, we appreciate you listening today to Peoplecast and we'll see you next time.
Jerrin Padre 40:35
Bye!