Catherine Brown 00:00
My research shows people overwhelmingly have more positive experiences as a buyer or a seller, but they remember the negative ones the most. Because people are wired to perceive threat. There's something about us that we like to ruminate on, when someone mistreated us as a buyer. And then we vow and we say, Well, I will never be like that seller, right? And so then we anchor on that's what sales is. And then from then on, we get to be right about that, right? Because we say, See, I'm not gonna be like that person. And then what happens is we under ask.
Pete Mohr 00:39
Hey, it's Pete, and welcome to another edition of the simplifying entrepreneurship podcast. It's the series designed to help you change your entrepreneurial worries and wants into wins by providing the tips and tools that will help you cut through the chaos and create clarity using the systems that transform your business and life. As a leader. Always remember, you lead your business and it shouldn't be leading you. Today, I had the opportunity to speak with Catherine Brown. And Catherine Brown is a new best selling author for her book, How Good Humans Sel. Il really had an awesome conversation around the whole idea of sales. And she is a sales trainer and deals with this sort of stuff every day. some really interesting statistics around sales here, too, coming up on this episode. And I'll let Catherine tell them to you starting right now. Hey, Catherine, it's a pleasure to have you here today on the simplifying entrepreneurship podcast. Thank you so much for the invitation. I'm delighted, we were chatting on clubhouse the other morning, as we often see each other over there in different rooms. And it's like, Hey, you have a new book and are already a best selling author, for the book, How good humans sell. It's just amazing.
Catherine Brown 02:00
Thank you so much. So I've been doing sales training for about four years inside companies a business to business training. And I've wanted for a while to put the book out, I was seeing it originally as a tool for my own courses. And then it's had such a popular reception, I think the name is catchy. It's tapping into a fear and issue people have. And so the general public's reception has exceeded my expectations. It's been lovely.
Pete Mohr 02:28
It's awesome. I know I've downloaded it and it's on my next book to read list. I've just got two more chapters of thinking, the one that I'm currently on, and then I'm going to head on over and dig in. And I'm so happy to have you here to chat a little bit about it today, too. And give me a few little primers as to what I'm going to hear or what I'm going to read in the book. Today, I think we're going to kick it off with that idea that most people think sales is icky. And let's talk a little bit about the psychology around that. And all of the good stuff that you go to in the book, Katherine.
Catherine Brown 03:00
Hey, thank you. So the title how good human cell came about, because I started out initially several years ago, thinking that I would exclusively be serving the business owner who wanted to sharpen their sales skills. So what happened is I was training in person, and I was doing in person workshops, and I would have a room of people and I would do some general polling. And I would say how many of you thought you'd be in sales when you grow up? And no one would raise their hands. And then I would go on and ask and be anonymous. But on paper, I would have them fill out some things about what words come to mind and some, you know, General anonymous questions about attitudes about selling? Well, the attitudes were overwhelmingly negative. And that's a good that's a problem because most of the people who were sellers, and who were the owners are the only sales people in their company at this time, because they were pretty early stage companies. Right. So that means that they like being an owner that got in the business for a certain reason. But they were not thrilled about the fact that they had to be the seller. Fast forward a couple years, I'm going to test these same questions and I'm going to go to full time business development people, account manager employees inside companies. So these are the people that those owners look to hire to say when you sell for me, right, and the results were a little bit better. But 55% of the sales professionals polled still reported negative associations, negative attitudes that were either covert or overt, and it's their full time job to sell.
Pete Mohr 04:34
Wow, that's hard on the mindset when you're going to work every day doing something that you're not convinced you want to be doing. Right,
Catherine Brown 04:42
exactly. And also concerning for the business owner, because they they think I'm going to take care of this thing that I don't like to do another way and then come to find out it's actually almost impossible to build a team where there aren't some covert negative attitudes about sales. For a variety of reasons. So once we know that that is on the table, we can deal with it. But I think what a lot of people do is stuff it down and try to act like that's not an issue. And what my research says it says, it's really an issue. It's very costly.
Pete Mohr 05:13
So why do they have all these negative feelings and vibes and everything about sales? Catherine, like what what's driving that?
Catherine Brown 05:21
I think it is really about basic human survival. So I think that people experience and this is getting a little bit into psychology and physiology and things like that. But people experience emotion, they experience a sensation rather. And then they have, then they assign an emotion to that, right, so that they assign that to whatever the situation was, when they were in when they felt the felt experience. My research shows people overwhelmingly have more positive experiences as a buyer or a seller, but they remember the negative ones the most, because people are wired to perceive threat. If there's something about us that we like to ruminate on, when someone mistreated us as a buyer, and then we vow and we say, Well, I will never be like that seller, right. And so then we anchor on, that's what sales is. And then from then on, we get to be right about that, right? Because we say, See, I'm
Pete Mohr 06:15
not gonna be like that person. And then what happens is we under ask, it's really, it's really a very vicious cycle, it can be broken, but you have to notice that you're doing that, and take responsibility for what you have been believing up until now, which to some extent served you, if that's that getting you where you want to go, then we have to take a look at it. A lot of times how many people come into we own shoe stores, and how many people come into the shoe store? And you hear about the complaints? Not so much all of the great experiences, it's the same sort of thing, right? It's that same sort of idea about the ones that rise and you remember, or it's like, oh, yeah, that person, you know, there was something that went on here, whatever the case was, but it wasn't about the other 999 people that had an outstanding experience. And that's the same on the sales floor from the salespeople to right. It's, it's interesting, because when when I'll say to my team, how is the day that you know, they often will point out those one or two bad experiences, and they won't always be talking about the awesome experiences that they had from a salesperson perspective. Do you see that sort of stuff, too?
Catherine Brown 07:21
I do as well. And so I think we're wired for threat. I think that's most of it. I think also that it is still something that's propagated In popular culture in the media. One of the things I did with my research is I tried to, I was hoping that maybe younger people wouldn't have had as much time to be as negatively impacted. Like, they don't know who Tommy Boy is, and they watch Glengarry Glen Ross, and even maybe, maybe even in school aren't required to read Death of a Salesman anymore, right? So I thought there would be these these iconic symbols that might have not affected them. No, it's not true. In fact, in the professional b2b sales category, people who were under the age of 45, showed more reluctance. Now, I think this is a correlation. I think this is because if you keep going in that career, you've settled out and found a way to like it. So I think there's probably that factor going on as well. But I was so disappointed to see, oh, gosh, I thought if we catch them earlier, we may be able to nip this in the bud. But I think it's groomed from a young age, right? don't offer your girl scout cookies to that person, you would be bothering them. Don't take the candy to grandma's. No one wants to buy your band candy, you know, you know what the fundraiser was for school? I think it starts early.
Pete Mohr 08:42
Yeah, not stuff used to be drilled in our heads as kids, right. It's like, get out there, you know, sell the tickets for the side of beef up for the tournament and all that kind of stuff. Right? We we had to go out and do that. And that's not happening anymore. And and the parents, it seems are making the excuses for the kids in that case. Right. And it's, it's an interesting thing. So what's your sort of one or two tips for those people in that 20 to 45 range to get over that in a quick way, Katherine?
Catherine Brown 09:10
Well, I think remembering the other half of the reason people buy is very motivating to people. So every human wants to live a life of purpose. They just don't always know how to do it. And this is my conviction. And so I think that when you help people connect purpose to selling so for example, you and I were talking before we started recording about how if I sell software, I mean it's not just the financial software that's going to have a better Chart of Accounts. That's what I buy, right? It's as a CFO, I'm also looking and saying, Is this gonna make me look good internally? Is this gonna give give me it's gonna make me more comfortable because I'm going to be able to do my job faster. Is this gonna make my team happy with me? You're thinking of all of these other motivating factors? Yeah, the benefits as sellers realize that we have the privilege of addressing those motives and values all So I think it can change the game for people, because you move from feeling like I sell shoes to I shop, I sell a tool that is for something that it's for a trip that they've been looking forward to all year long, right? Tell me hiking boots, and I've been saving my money to come in and buy the most expensive pair of boots that are going to be awesome to take to the Czech Republic, wherever I'm going, then that's part of that whole experience. And the seller has to tap into that and, and that's why I really feel that selling is connecting people to their dreams, if you understand it's not just the thing you sell. It's also all those motives and values that go with it for the buyer. And that is about having a life of purpose,
Pete Mohr 10:48
my framework, it's like the features in the bit benefits, right? We're not selling the features, we're selling the benefits. Yes, we can sell the features, which is all sort of like a here, we'll list them out for you. It's got this, this and this. But really, you know, most of our clients don't care as much as what it's going to do for them how it's going to make them feel how it's going to, you know, that sort of thing. And when we're working on that plane, it's so much more pleasurable really isn't it for both sides for the, for the client and for the salesperson.
Catherine Brown 11:17
But let's go back to the shoe example for a second. I really was thinking about a pair of boots I bought before I went on a trip in the fall of 19. Yeah, so fun. My husband had a conference in the Czech Republic. And so we made a whole vacation around it, well, I have a vest, I have a pair of expensive boots, I have a certain purse, strap across the you know, cross test cross body that I didn't own. Before that I have some some items I bought for that trip, because I knew we'd be hiking and walking and going to castles, right? Every time I wear or use those things. I use the crossbody bag when I'm out for something else I associate with that trip.
Pete Mohr 11:53
Yeah, it's a triggers, right.
Catherine Brown 11:55
It is a pleasant trigger. It was the last big trip we took before the pandemic. And it was so wonderful. And so how what a joy for a salesperson to be able to be associated with that whole thing. And then as I come back to you, for you to ask me about it, for you to be involved in my family, and then our experiences and our goals and ask what we're doing next? And how can I help you get ready for that? That's, that's a long view in relationship building. And, and a person can do that in a sales role. And so I just think it's very interesting for me as a buyer to look and think, gosh, every time I use those things, I have these associations, which for me are pleasant.
Pete Mohr 12:34
Yeah. What's your thought, just to kind of, we're almost at the end already, my sort of philosophy of sales is all about proper communication. And without the proper communication, everything else fails, what what's your take on that
Catherine Brown 12:48
your prospect needs to be doing most of the talking. And that does require great communication skills, because it means that you have to read the room. And you have to as a seller, you have to ask open ended questions that get them to talk. Because there's a lot of research, this is just social, psychological research. This isn't necessarily about sales. But there's all this social psychology research that shows that when I talk more to you, I feel connected to you. So it's very important that the seller unpack what's going on and get, actually get them to do most of the talking, get our buyer to do most of the talking. And that takes practice and skill. Nothing can be two way but what happens is, it's usually not two way, it's usually the seller doing most of the talking. And that doesn't build relationship with the client the way that the seller wants, they often do that because they feel nervous, or because they think that it's very important to get through the demonstration or whatever reason. And it actually can be counterproductive if it's done too early.
Pete Mohr 13:51
Yeah. And I kind of use the words have big ears and a small mouth when you when you start off that sales conversation, right. And I think those questions have features and benefits. If you're asking the questions on the benefits, then you're not talking the features. As salespeople, we tend to talk the features all the time, because we're like you said uncomfortable or whatever the case is trying to break the ice. But really, we just need to be asking, what are the benefits are looking for and let them do the talking.
Catherine Brown 14:17
And I think an end cap I would put to that to Pete is that when you have them do most of the talking, if you realize that actually you're not a fit. And you realize that early what's so interesting to me is the longer I sell the older I get, the more I do this, the more it's a pleasure for me to realize that quickly and then connect them to the next right person. So as the years have progressed, I have complimentary partners and I have friendly competitors that really are a direct competitor of mine, but we like each other. And I have all these ways I can be useful, even if I'm not the right person. And I think when we do that right thing, which is part about being a good human, right when we do the right thing. I think it all kinds of ways. comes back to us later, they might literally buy from us, they might send someone else to us, or in my case, lifetimes, there's something that needs to be done in marketing, and then it's appropriate to come back for sales. And so I send them on their way, and then at the right time they return. And that is so great for both parties, because I don't want to talk someone into something they don't need. But I can also be useful to them in their journey of what they're looking for. And then everyone wins. And so right, that is part of that communication, too. That is awesome. I think, yeah,
Pete Mohr 15:32
I love that. I love that. I think that's a great spot to cap this episode. And one of the things that I want to let people know off the bat is that you've graciously agreed to a second episode. So we'll have that down the road as well, Catherine, I'm looking forward to that, too. So if you like this episode, stay tuned, there's going to be more Catherine brown coming down the road. But for now, Catherine, why don't you tell people how they can get your book, how they can get ahold of you and get in touch with you if they want to learn more.
Catherine Brown 15:59
Super, thank you. So everything about my sales training, coaching programs, and the book can be found at my company website, which is extra bold, www.extraboldsales.com, if you type in the URL, how good humans sell, you will also be directed to extra bold. So there's, there's lots of ways to get there. And then the book is available on amazon.com or through the website.
Pete Mohr 16:28
That's awesome. That's awesome. And I wish you all the best in book sales and future success with all of that too. And I'm really looking forward to our next discussion. So thanks so much for spending some time with with me here today. And I'm sure there's lots of great tidbits here to take your business and simplify business through sales. So thanks, Catherine. Thank you, thanks for the opportunity. Well, another great episode. Thanks for spending some time with me here today. Think about how you can apply today's simplifying entrepreneurship topic of salesmanship and how good humans sell from Catherine's book, pick up Catherine's book, if you get a chance. It's wonderful. I've already read it. It's worth every dime. You know, some really interesting things came out here, if you're running a sales team, or even for your own sake, as a leader in the business, amazing, I found that 55% of sales professionals reported negative feelings around sales, how do you reframe those feelings with your sales team and get them feeling better, you know, they have to be better listeners, they have to be problem solvers. But when you flip that our whole idea that they are problem solvers, and they're working for the benefit of their client, and they're going to be able to deliver the benefits that those clients want, not just the features. So some really interesting stuff here today. Connecting the purpose into selling is so important. And I think Catherine really brought that home for us today. Hopefully, you'll be able to have an even better business and entrepreneurial life after this conversation today. If you liked the podcast, please share it with your friends, invite them to listen, and most of all, subscribe to the podcast so you can hear future episodes. For more information on my coaching and leadership programs visit www.Mohr.Coach or email me directly at Pete@Mohr.Coach, and until next time, make it a great day.
18:32
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