{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.05,"endTime":1.43,"body":"Oh, welcome back."},{"startTime":1.43,"endTime":3.04,"body":"Special mystery guest  Jessica."},{"startTime":3.04,"endTime":4.75,"body":"You're our special mystery guest."},{"startTime":4.75,"endTime":8.5,"body":"We wanted to have an episode to talk"},{"startTime":4.75,"endTime":8.5,"body":"specifically about conflict resolution."},{"startTime":8.5,"endTime":11.83,"body":"And the reason we wanted to talk"},{"startTime":8.5,"endTime":11.83,"body":"about conflict resolution is"},{"startTime":11.83,"endTime":19.78,"body":"because there's so many people"},{"startTime":11.83,"endTime":19.78,"body":"that lack this skill in in general."},{"startTime":19.84,"endTime":20.02,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":20.074,"endTime":23.014,"body":"I was gonna say in corporate America,"},{"startTime":20.074,"endTime":23.014,"body":"but yeah, you're right in general."},{"startTime":23.019,"endTime":28.134,"body":"Mm-hmm  like when it comes to coming"},{"startTime":23.019,"endTime":28.134,"body":"into an uncomfortable discussion"},{"startTime":28.525,"endTime":34.315,"body":"where conflict is at the core of the"},{"startTime":28.525,"endTime":34.315,"body":"discussion a lot of people just don't"},{"startTime":34.315,"endTime":35.754,"body":"have this skill to work through it"},{"startTime":36.294,"endTime":37.014,"body":"yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":37.014,"endTime":40.044,"body":"So you've got people that some people"},{"startTime":37.014,"endTime":40.044,"body":"will just say, it's not worth it."},{"startTime":40.049,"endTime":41.454,"body":"I'm I'm just not gonna engage."},{"startTime":42.114,"endTime":43.704,"body":"And they, they yield and other people."},{"startTime":44.574,"endTime":45.594,"body":"it's a matter of principal."},{"startTime":45.594,"endTime":46.495,"body":"I'm not gonna let go."},{"startTime":46.495,"endTime":47.605,"body":"And they dig in, right."},{"startTime":47.609,"endTime":50.034,"body":"Mm-hmm  mm-hmm  mm-hmm  so"},{"startTime":47.609,"endTime":50.034,"body":"you've got a whole spectrum of"},{"startTime":50.034,"endTime":51.855,"body":"that going on in the workplace."},{"startTime":51.855,"endTime":52.125,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":52.125,"endTime":54.765,"body":"So we've seen that we've,"},{"startTime":52.125,"endTime":54.765,"body":"I'm sure we've been on teams"},{"startTime":54.765,"endTime":55.995,"body":"where we've seen this happen."},{"startTime":56.295,"endTime":56.504,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":56.504,"endTime":60.875,"body":"So it's a very topical thing to"},{"startTime":56.504,"endTime":60.875,"body":"discuss, I think, conflict resolution"},{"startTime":60.995,"endTime":66.005,"body":"I can remember a situation specifically"},{"startTime":60.995,"endTime":66.005,"body":"where we had a scaled retrospective and"},{"startTime":66.005,"endTime":70.864,"body":"we had leadership involved and they were"},{"startTime":66.005,"endTime":70.864,"body":"getting very aggressive and using one of"},{"startTime":70.864,"endTime":75.574,"body":"our scrum masters as a scapegoat, which"},{"startTime":70.864,"endTime":75.574,"body":"that's what it seemed like in the meeting."},{"startTime":75.604,"endTime":79.464,"body":"And I was acting as the scrum master"},{"startTime":75.604,"endTime":79.464,"body":"and I had a very difficult time."},{"startTime":79.584,"endTime":82.914,"body":"Was that person in the meeting,"},{"startTime":79.584,"endTime":82.914,"body":"how to mediate that conversation?"},{"startTime":83.484,"endTime":83.844,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":83.844,"endTime":84.354,"body":"You were too."},{"startTime":85.554,"endTime":86.364,"body":"You were, you were there was it?"},{"startTime":86.754,"endTime":87.232,"body":"Yeah, . . Oh, I remember."},{"startTime":87.237,"endTime":90.05,"body":"Remember I would look at the audience"},{"startTime":87.237,"endTime":90.05,"body":"carefully for retrospectives, right?"},{"startTime":90.05,"endTime":92.12,"body":"They, they should be for"},{"startTime":90.05,"endTime":92.12,"body":"the team by the team."},{"startTime":92.66,"endTime":94.22,"body":"Well, no, so this was a scaled one, right?"},{"startTime":94.22,"endTime":97.88,"body":"So we have one for the team and then"},{"startTime":94.22,"endTime":97.88,"body":"they wanted to do one, like our CEO."},{"startTime":97.88,"endTime":99.014,"body":"He's like, that would be beneficial."},{"startTime":99.195,"endTime":102.614,"body":"Let's let's do like a reflection"},{"startTime":99.195,"endTime":102.614,"body":"and he really liked retrospectives."},{"startTime":102.974,"endTime":104.534,"body":"So we did it at that level as well."},{"startTime":104.534,"endTime":106.124,"body":"I don't remember this at all."},{"startTime":106.514,"endTime":107.294,"body":"I are you I'm so sorry."},{"startTime":107.294,"endTime":109.394,"body":"Like I don't, you didn't"},{"startTime":107.294,"endTime":109.394,"body":"gimme feedback afterwards."},{"startTime":109.514,"endTime":109.964,"body":"Did I?"},{"startTime":110.154,"endTime":110.374,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":110.424,"endTime":112.834,"body":"My memory is so terrible."},{"startTime":112.954,"endTime":114.424,"body":"Honestly, no, I can't remember."},{"startTime":114.664,"endTime":115.084,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":115.655,"endTime":117.785,"body":"Well, so you, you want me to"},{"startTime":115.655,"endTime":117.785,"body":"tell you what you told me?"},{"startTime":118.094,"endTime":118.675,"body":"yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":118.675,"endTime":118.835,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":118.994,"endTime":121.214,"body":"Cause during the situation, I"},{"startTime":118.994,"endTime":121.214,"body":"have no idea so comfortable."},{"startTime":121.214,"endTime":122.205,"body":"You could feel it."},{"startTime":122.205,"endTime":124.425,"body":"You know, the scrum master"},{"startTime":122.205,"endTime":124.425,"body":"was getting defensive."},{"startTime":124.749,"endTime":128.41,"body":"So I interjected as far as like, we"},{"startTime":124.749,"endTime":128.41,"body":"gotta go within our time box like"},{"startTime":128.41,"endTime":130.09,"body":"we, we gotta stay on track here."},{"startTime":130.18,"endTime":130.36,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":130.42,"endTime":134.14,"body":"What I could have done was"},{"startTime":130.42,"endTime":134.14,"body":"communicate why we're here"},{"startTime":134.145,"endTime":135.43,"body":"communicate a working agreement."},{"startTime":135.435,"endTime":138.55,"body":"There was other things I could have"},{"startTime":135.435,"endTime":138.55,"body":"done to mediate that conversation."},{"startTime":138.83,"endTime":141.165,"body":"Remind everyone that"},{"startTime":138.83,"endTime":141.165,"body":"we're on the same team."},{"startTime":141.165,"endTime":142.845,"body":"We have the same goal in mind things."},{"startTime":143.185,"endTime":143.645,"body":"That's true."},{"startTime":143.645,"endTime":143.955,"body":"Yeah, that's good."},{"startTime":144.005,"endTime":147.125,"body":"But you know, when I was on the spot like"},{"startTime":144.005,"endTime":147.125,"body":"that, those things didn't come to me."},{"startTime":147.125,"endTime":147.485,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":147.485,"endTime":150.994,"body":"So I tried to redirect the conversation"},{"startTime":147.485,"endTime":150.994,"body":"as best as I could, but the feedback I"},{"startTime":150.994,"endTime":155.225,"body":"got afterwards was that if I had more"},{"startTime":150.994,"endTime":155.225,"body":"experience as like an agile coach,"},{"startTime":155.225,"endTime":156.275,"body":"cause I'm, I was a scrum master."},{"startTime":156.275,"endTime":156.725,"body":"I still am."},{"startTime":156.934,"endTime":159.515,"body":"If I had more experience as an"},{"startTime":156.934,"endTime":159.515,"body":"agile coach, I would know how to"},{"startTime":159.515,"endTime":161.255,"body":"better navigate that conflict."},{"startTime":162.484,"endTime":167.535,"body":"But you know, in that moment, my fight or"},{"startTime":162.484,"endTime":167.535,"body":"flight kicked in too, I wasn't the yeah."},{"startTime":167.535,"endTime":167.695,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":167.7,"endTime":169.054,"body":"That wasn't directed at me."},{"startTime":169.125,"endTime":169.415,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":169.565,"endTime":169.655,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":169.684,"endTime":170.705,"body":"But I, it kicked in."},{"startTime":170.71,"endTime":173.945,"body":"And so when that happens and"},{"startTime":170.71,"endTime":173.945,"body":"your frontal cortex shuts down."},{"startTime":173.95,"endTime":175.06,"body":"You don't think clearly."},{"startTime":175.065,"endTime":175.12,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":175.6,"endTime":176.74,"body":"Liz, Braden takes over."},{"startTime":176.74,"endTime":177.13,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":177.13,"endTime":177.19,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":177.19,"endTime":177.67,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":177.67,"endTime":177.88,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":177.88,"endTime":182.575,"body":"I probably put it the way that you,"},{"startTime":177.88,"endTime":182.575,"body":"you just put it, which wasn't the great"},{"startTime":182.58,"endTime":187.004,"body":"greatest way to put it, but the, the"},{"startTime":182.58,"endTime":187.004,"body":"better way to put it was if you are the"},{"startTime":187.124,"endTime":192.105,"body":"facilitator of that session, then yes,"},{"startTime":187.124,"endTime":192.105,"body":"everyone is looking to you to be like,"},{"startTime":192.105,"endTime":197.954,"body":"Hey, disarm this tense moment, turn it"},{"startTime":192.105,"endTime":197.954,"body":"into whatever it needs to be turned into"},{"startTime":197.954,"endTime":200.894,"body":"to make it more beneficial to everyone."},{"startTime":201.434,"endTime":203.704,"body":"And and then move us along in the agenda."},{"startTime":204.074,"endTime":207.764,"body":"that like, that's a, Ooh, if"},{"startTime":204.074,"endTime":207.764,"body":"you're talking about the magic of"},{"startTime":207.764,"endTime":210.694,"body":"a scrum master that's the magic"},{"startTime":207.764,"endTime":210.694,"body":"is like, Hey, I'm under disarm."},{"startTime":210.694,"endTime":213.694,"body":"This super tense moment of"},{"startTime":210.694,"endTime":213.694,"body":"like, Hey, you guys failed."},{"startTime":214.234,"endTime":216.234,"body":"We talked about before"},{"startTime":214.234,"endTime":216.234,"body":"failing a sprinkle."},{"startTime":216.264,"endTime":219.084,"body":"Oh yeah, you look don't, you"},{"startTime":216.264,"endTime":219.084,"body":"tell the development team."},{"startTime":219.084,"endTime":223.434,"body":"They failed in something"},{"startTime":219.084,"endTime":223.434,"body":"super dirty word failed."},{"startTime":223.644,"endTime":223.974,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":224.304,"endTime":227.424,"body":"Cause just the attack in"},{"startTime":224.304,"endTime":227.424,"body":"that word of like you failed."},{"startTime":227.694,"endTime":227.904,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":227.964,"endTime":228.534,"body":"You're a failure."},{"startTime":228.924,"endTime":230.034,"body":"That is a major insult, right."},{"startTime":230.034,"endTime":234.274,"body":"You're failure own, you failed like"},{"startTime":230.034,"endTime":234.274,"body":"the small now you know, as a developer,"},{"startTime":234.304,"endTime":236.644,"body":"there's a better way to convey that"},{"startTime":234.304,"endTime":236.644,"body":"other than the product person be"},{"startTime":236.644,"endTime":238.684,"body":"like, this sprint was a failure."},{"startTime":238.689,"endTime":239.824,"body":"You're you're shaming the team."},{"startTime":239.824,"endTime":240.244,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":240.244,"endTime":240.454,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":240.454,"endTime":240.814,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":240.819,"endTime":240.894,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":241.084,"endTime":245.379,"body":"But the product person might not"},{"startTime":241.084,"endTime":245.379,"body":"be trying to say you guys messed up"},{"startTime":245.379,"endTime":246.609,"body":"and I'm real disappointed in you."},{"startTime":246.759,"endTime":252.199,"body":"It might be Hey, the message"},{"startTime":246.759,"endTime":252.199,"body":"coming across might be, we"},{"startTime":252.199,"endTime":254.419,"body":"didn't do what we set out to do."},{"startTime":254.839,"endTime":258.979,"body":"Now let's stop for a second"},{"startTime":254.839,"endTime":258.979,"body":"and introspective and"},{"startTime":258.979,"endTime":261.199,"body":"figure out what went wrong."},{"startTime":261.769,"endTime":262.939,"body":"So the next sprint."},{"startTime":263.704,"endTime":267.724,"body":"We can commit to the goal and do"},{"startTime":263.704,"endTime":267.724,"body":"what we're gonna let's really stop"},{"startTime":267.724,"endTime":271.184,"body":"and think about what we did cuz"},{"startTime":267.724,"endTime":271.184,"body":"nobody's holding us accountable."},{"startTime":271.184,"endTime":274.544,"body":"This is us holding ourselves"},{"startTime":271.184,"endTime":274.544,"body":"accountable to figure out how"},{"startTime":274.544,"endTime":276.974,"body":"we learn from this misstep."},{"startTime":277.544,"endTime":280.994,"body":"I don't even wanna say misstep cuz"},{"startTime":277.544,"endTime":280.994,"body":"even like, even that could be construed"},{"startTime":280.994,"endTime":285.504,"body":"in the wrong way, but it's all that"},{"startTime":280.994,"endTime":285.504,"body":"kind of stuff, but like rolled into"},{"startTime":286.744,"endTime":291.514,"body":"somebody, monitoring the conversation"},{"startTime":286.744,"endTime":291.514,"body":"to say like, how do we learn from this?"},{"startTime":292.094,"endTime":294.554,"body":"All that rolls back into"},{"startTime":292.094,"endTime":294.554,"body":"conflict relationship."},{"startTime":294.554,"endTime":295.394,"body":"It certainly does."},{"startTime":295.724,"endTime":298.454,"body":"One of the things you could"},{"startTime":295.724,"endTime":298.454,"body":"do in that specific situation."},{"startTime":298.484,"endTime":300.854,"body":"And I'll come back to"},{"startTime":298.484,"endTime":300.854,"body":"yours after that, right."},{"startTime":300.854,"endTime":305.654,"body":"Is obviously don't use the F"},{"startTime":300.854,"endTime":305.654,"body":"word you failed or certainly"},{"startTime":305.654,"endTime":307.364,"body":"don't use the you either, right?"},{"startTime":307.544,"endTime":307.634,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":307.684,"endTime":312.149,"body":"I might say as a product owner might"},{"startTime":307.684,"endTime":312.149,"body":"say this sprint was pretty good,"},{"startTime":312.329,"endTime":314.099,"body":"however we could have done better."},{"startTime":314.399,"endTime":314.699,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":314.704,"endTime":319.959,"body":"So let's talk about some of the reasons"},{"startTime":314.704,"endTime":319.959,"body":"why we didn't do as well as we expected."},{"startTime":320.019,"endTime":323.109,"body":"Mm-hmm , there's always we in"},{"startTime":320.019,"endTime":323.109,"body":"there and not you first of all"},{"startTime":323.469,"endTime":327.459,"body":"and ask the questions, don't say,"},{"startTime":323.469,"endTime":327.459,"body":"well, if only our C I C D work,"},{"startTime":327.464,"endTime":328.719,"body":"we, we might have met the goal."},{"startTime":328.749,"endTime":329.619,"body":"Yeah, no, right."},{"startTime":329.619,"endTime":332.319,"body":"Don't do that because don't"},{"startTime":329.619,"endTime":332.319,"body":"immediately go to a cause."},{"startTime":332.324,"endTime":334.569,"body":"Let them come up with these things, right?"},{"startTime":334.569,"endTime":335.159,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":335.219,"endTime":336.179,"body":"Coming back to yours."},{"startTime":336.239,"endTime":336.539,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":336.539,"endTime":342.299,"body":"So in a situation where you find yourself"},{"startTime":336.539,"endTime":342.299,"body":"in the moment having to like come up"},{"startTime":342.299,"endTime":344.779,"body":"with something, you can always turn to a."},{"startTime":345.824,"endTime":346.874,"body":"always turn to a break."},{"startTime":346.874,"endTime":349.934,"body":"Just say, this is a good point"},{"startTime":346.874,"endTime":349.934,"body":"to take a break, just to stay"},{"startTime":349.934,"endTime":352.064,"body":"five minutes and we'll come back."},{"startTime":352.064,"endTime":356.864,"body":"How's that, and actually remove yourself"},{"startTime":352.064,"endTime":356.864,"body":"from the room physically, just walk out."},{"startTime":357.344,"endTime":357.674,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":357.674,"endTime":359.474,"body":"Because that'll give"},{"startTime":357.674,"endTime":359.474,"body":"you the clarity of mind."},{"startTime":359.744,"endTime":362.594,"body":"If you're standing there, you're"},{"startTime":359.744,"endTime":362.594,"body":"looking at the person who is the"},{"startTime":362.599,"endTime":365.864,"body":"aggressor in this case, mm-hmm  or"},{"startTime":362.599,"endTime":365.864,"body":"you're looking at everybody else looking"},{"startTime":365.864,"endTime":368.264,"body":"at you saying help defend us, right?"},{"startTime":368.534,"endTime":368.594,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":368.594,"endTime":372.074,"body":"That doesn't help because your brain is"},{"startTime":368.594,"endTime":372.074,"body":"still now in that fight or flight mode."},{"startTime":372.074,"endTime":372.344,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":372.434,"endTime":376.304,"body":"So if you get yourself out of the room,"},{"startTime":372.434,"endTime":376.304,"body":"it gives you a breathing like a little"},{"startTime":376.304,"endTime":380.144,"body":"bit of space where you can now think"},{"startTime":376.304,"endTime":380.144,"body":"through and say, how can I deal with this?"},{"startTime":380.414,"endTime":380.624,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":380.624,"endTime":384.764,"body":"Mm-hmm , that's always the"},{"startTime":380.624,"endTime":384.764,"body":"option that you take a break."},{"startTime":384.884,"endTime":385.394,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":385.394,"endTime":386.804,"body":"I mean, that's not a bad idea."},{"startTime":386.954,"endTime":391.274,"body":"I think in our CA in this case,"},{"startTime":386.954,"endTime":391.274,"body":"it was the end of the meeting."},{"startTime":391.394,"endTime":391.424,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":391.424,"endTime":391.664,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":391.669,"endTime":393.374,"body":"It was like the last five"},{"startTime":391.669,"endTime":393.374,"body":"minutes of the meeting."},{"startTime":393.379,"endTime":394.814,"body":"It would be weird to take"},{"startTime":393.379,"endTime":394.814,"body":"a break at that time."},{"startTime":395.294,"endTime":395.534,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":395.954,"endTime":396.044,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":396.044,"endTime":396.045,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":396.045,"endTime":396.124,"body":"I understand."},{"startTime":396.164,"endTime":396.314,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":396.414,"endTime":397.314,"body":"But I hear what you're saying."},{"startTime":397.314,"endTime":397.884,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":397.884,"endTime":403.174,"body":"I think another thing I could have done"},{"startTime":397.884,"endTime":403.174,"body":"in retrospect was schedule a one on one"},{"startTime":403.204,"endTime":406.174,"body":"with a person who was pointing fingers."},{"startTime":406.264,"endTime":406.444,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":406.634,"endTime":406.874,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":406.879,"endTime":409.024,"body":"You know, create a safe"},{"startTime":406.879,"endTime":409.024,"body":"space for him and me."},{"startTime":409.024,"endTime":410.044,"body":"Just the two of us."},{"startTime":410.049,"endTime":410.134,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":410.134,"endTime":412.144,"body":"To kind of dig into"},{"startTime":410.134,"endTime":412.144,"body":"that a little bit more."},{"startTime":413.014,"endTime":413.584,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":413.589,"endTime":415.954,"body":"Mm-hmm  and that's"},{"startTime":413.589,"endTime":415.954,"body":"uncomfortable to do too."},{"startTime":416.854,"endTime":417.334,"body":"It is."},{"startTime":417.394,"endTime":420.664,"body":"But you know, at the same time you"},{"startTime":417.394,"endTime":420.664,"body":"really don't wanna fuel the fire."},{"startTime":420.744,"endTime":424.884,"body":"What I'm saying is when they're"},{"startTime":420.744,"endTime":424.884,"body":"being that way, questioning and so"},{"startTime":424.884,"endTime":428.954,"body":"forth, almost in an accusatory tone,"},{"startTime":424.884,"endTime":428.954,"body":"you don't wanna necessarily start."},{"startTime":429.464,"endTime":430.874,"body":"Defending yourself, right?"},{"startTime":430.874,"endTime":433.874,"body":"You say, oh no, but cuz now"},{"startTime":430.874,"endTime":433.874,"body":"what's going on is now they're"},{"startTime":433.874,"endTime":435.374,"body":"gonna keep to their guns."},{"startTime":435.374,"endTime":436.904,"body":"And now you've gone into this firefight."},{"startTime":437.054,"endTime":437.954,"body":"You don't wanna do that."},{"startTime":437.984,"endTime":438.224,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":438.224,"endTime":439.874,"body":"But like it's graciously"},{"startTime":438.224,"endTime":439.874,"body":"pull out of there."},{"startTime":439.904,"endTime":440.084,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":440.089,"endTime":442.844,"body":"But to echo what, what Jessica"},{"startTime":440.089,"endTime":442.844,"body":"just said for a second, it's like,"},{"startTime":442.874,"endTime":446.984,"body":"oh, when you're in that mode where"},{"startTime":442.874,"endTime":446.984,"body":"like it's Ooh, full finger pistols,"},{"startTime":447.104,"endTime":454.064,"body":"like beep taking it offline to say,"},{"startTime":447.104,"endTime":454.064,"body":"Hey, let's talk about this offline."},{"startTime":454.244,"endTime":457.724,"body":"Let's put off the side, let's continue"},{"startTime":454.244,"endTime":457.724,"body":"with on the main line or whatever."},{"startTime":457.724,"endTime":461.474,"body":"And to, to get to whatever resolution"},{"startTime":457.724,"endTime":461.474,"body":"and to take a note and to take"},{"startTime":461.474,"endTime":462.614,"body":"that offline and have one on one."},{"startTime":463.334,"endTime":464.204,"body":"Woo boy."},{"startTime":464.204,"endTime":465.224,"body":"What a powerful tool."},{"startTime":465.274,"endTime":469.299,"body":"Because I have to think of it like from,"},{"startTime":465.274,"endTime":469.299,"body":"from the perspective of, again, we're,"},{"startTime":469.299,"endTime":472.479,"body":"we're in the perspective of a small"},{"startTime":469.299,"endTime":472.479,"body":"company here where you like have access"},{"startTime":472.479,"endTime":473.949,"body":"to the sea level executives and stuff."},{"startTime":473.979,"endTime":479.474,"body":"Mm-hmm  if you have the ability to"},{"startTime":473.979,"endTime":479.474,"body":"take an issue offline and talk to the,"},{"startTime":479.544,"endTime":483.384,"body":"technology, people talk to the business,"},{"startTime":479.544,"endTime":483.384,"body":"people, talk to whatever one-on-one"},{"startTime":483.384,"endTime":484.854,"body":"to get each of their perspectives."},{"startTime":485.184,"endTime":490.104,"body":"Now you understand each of their"},{"startTime":485.184,"endTime":490.104,"body":"perspectives individually at a deep level."},{"startTime":490.314,"endTime":494.874,"body":"And when you meet back with them,"},{"startTime":490.314,"endTime":494.874,"body":"one-on-one you can take everyone's"},{"startTime":494.874,"endTime":497.184,"body":"different perspective into account"},{"startTime":497.189,"endTime":498.418,"body":"so  if I."},{"startTime":498.958,"endTime":501.958,"body":"Recommend anything to people trying"},{"startTime":498.958,"endTime":501.958,"body":"to break in, like people, I think"},{"startTime":501.958,"endTime":504.798,"body":"of people trying to break in the"},{"startTime":501.958,"endTime":504.798,"body":"field, people that scrum mess for"},{"startTime":504.798,"endTime":506.028,"body":"the first time and stuff like that."},{"startTime":506.148,"endTime":509.448,"body":"And I'm like, yeah, one on one is"},{"startTime":506.148,"endTime":509.448,"body":"basically where you make all your money"},{"startTime":510.158,"endTime":511.938,"body":"is having one-on-ones with people."},{"startTime":512.418,"endTime":517.198,"body":"That's your opportu tour opportunity"},{"startTime":512.418,"endTime":517.198,"body":"to influence and to spread your"},{"startTime":517.198,"endTime":519.758,"body":"organizational influence is one on ones."},{"startTime":519.888,"endTime":522.638,"body":"You, you, you spread influence one"},{"startTime":519.888,"endTime":522.638,"body":"on one and then when everyone's"},{"startTime":522.638,"endTime":528.608,"body":"together combined, you have already"},{"startTime":522.638,"endTime":528.608,"body":"planted the seeds throughout."},{"startTime":528.818,"endTime":529.718,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":529.723,"endTime":531.908,"body":"It's a force PRI when"},{"startTime":529.723,"endTime":531.908,"body":"everybody's together."},{"startTime":532.028,"endTime":532.938,"body":"So yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":533.138,"endTime":535.718,"body":"One-on-ones are very,"},{"startTime":533.138,"endTime":535.718,"body":"very powerful for sure."},{"startTime":535.808,"endTime":535.898,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"startTime":536.448,"endTime":539.868,"body":"we got on this topic because we were"},{"startTime":536.448,"endTime":539.868,"body":"talking about conflict resolution"},{"startTime":540.198,"endTime":543.208,"body":"and we were talking about places"},{"startTime":540.198,"endTime":543.208,"body":"that was uncomfortable because"},{"startTime":543.678,"endTime":545.908,"body":"everyone in the organization it's"},{"startTime":543.678,"endTime":545.908,"body":"basically uncomfortable for it."},{"startTime":546.098,"endTime":550.872,"body":"I remember when I was a team lead for"},{"startTime":546.098,"endTime":550.872,"body":"just to pick one outta the air, this"},{"startTime":550.872,"endTime":556.092,"body":"is probably not even the best example"},{"startTime":550.872,"endTime":556.092,"body":"when I was a team lead on the QA team."},{"startTime":556.722,"endTime":558.842,"body":"I remember my boss."},{"startTime":559.437,"endTime":561.057,"body":"Not, this is not a ding on him."},{"startTime":561.057,"endTime":562.377,"body":"Cause my boss was excellent at the time."},{"startTime":562.737,"endTime":567.117,"body":"My, my boss not wanting to go"},{"startTime":562.737,"endTime":567.117,"body":"to war with the development"},{"startTime":567.122,"endTime":568.917,"body":"manager over certain things."},{"startTime":569.397,"endTime":569.427,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":569.457,"endTime":572.157,"body":"So it was like he, he was"},{"startTime":569.457,"endTime":572.157,"body":"avoiding conflict right."},{"startTime":572.157,"endTime":575.757,"body":"Of like, well, well we just got well,"},{"startTime":572.157,"endTime":575.757,"body":"he just wants this and we just gotta"},{"startTime":575.762,"endTime":579.087,"body":"do it cuz you know, cause otherwise"},{"startTime":575.762,"endTime":579.087,"body":"this and that and this and that."},{"startTime":579.087,"endTime":582.657,"body":"And you know, he just, wasn't"},{"startTime":579.087,"endTime":582.657,"body":"looking to get into a deeper fight."},{"startTime":582.837,"endTime":583.017,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":583.437,"endTime":584.217,"body":"About certain things."},{"startTime":584.217,"endTime":587.307,"body":"And then I, as a team leader, I was like,"},{"startTime":584.217,"endTime":587.307,"body":"oh, I'll certainly get into a deeper"},{"startTime":587.307,"endTime":589.197,"body":"fight cuz I, I think it's very important."},{"startTime":589.477,"endTime":596.972,"body":"But he was sort of leveraging both"},{"startTime":589.477,"endTime":596.972,"body":"the, like the work and the QA team's"},{"startTime":597.252,"endTime":599.322,"body":"contributions to the larger organization."},{"startTime":599.532,"endTime":602.652,"body":"But at the same time he knew"},{"startTime":599.532,"endTime":602.652,"body":"we had to live in the world of"},{"startTime":602.952,"endTime":604.392,"body":"working with development every day."},{"startTime":604.932,"endTime":604.962,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":604.992,"endTime":609.672,"body":"So there were certain fights that he will,"},{"startTime":604.992,"endTime":609.672,"body":"that he was willing to lose and that he"},{"startTime":609.677,"endTime":613.182,"body":"was willing to stick it out and win in."},{"startTime":613.182,"endTime":617.472,"body":"And he kind of made that decision on"},{"startTime":613.182,"endTime":617.472,"body":"my behalf as a team leader, which as"},{"startTime":617.472,"endTime":620.172,"body":"a team leader kind of annoys you at"},{"startTime":617.472,"endTime":620.172,"body":"the time cuz you're like, ah, well"},{"startTime":620.172,"endTime":621.762,"body":"I wanna fight every fight on my own."},{"startTime":621.952,"endTime":624.112,"body":"But that's, I mean, that's,"},{"startTime":621.952,"endTime":624.112,"body":"that's just the world you live in."},{"startTime":624.392,"endTime":627.842,"body":"so it's like there are certain fights"},{"startTime":624.392,"endTime":627.842,"body":"that he would avoid and there are"},{"startTime":627.902,"endTime":629.102,"body":"certain fights that he would get in."},{"startTime":629.342,"endTime":632.462,"body":"But that doesn't mean that, that"},{"startTime":629.342,"endTime":632.462,"body":"doesn't that just battles that does"},{"startTime":632.462,"endTime":639.752,"body":"not mean that he was just conflict"},{"startTime":632.462,"endTime":639.752,"body":"avoidant, which certain people in"},{"startTime":639.752,"endTime":641.192,"body":"the organization certainly are."},{"startTime":641.612,"endTime":641.972,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":641.977,"endTime":642.042,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":642.092,"endTime":644.162,"body":"They just, they just will avoid conflict."},{"startTime":644.432,"endTime":648.042,"body":"And sometimes you see those people"},{"startTime":644.432,"endTime":648.042,"body":"continuing to get elevated in"},{"startTime":648.042,"endTime":650.892,"body":"their career because of that, they"},{"startTime":648.042,"endTime":650.892,"body":"didn't ruffle anyone's feathers."},{"startTime":653.592,"endTime":654.282,"body":"Oh, take it away."},{"startTime":655.182,"endTime":655.962,"body":"you really want me to do that?"},{"startTime":655.962,"endTime":657.522,"body":"I can't, I can't get into this one."},{"startTime":658.542,"endTime":659.562,"body":"yeah, you, you are right."},{"startTime":659.862,"endTime":663.592,"body":"Some people get up in advance"},{"startTime":659.862,"endTime":663.592,"body":"in that way, but unfortunately"},{"startTime":663.592,"endTime":665.092,"body":"that doesn't serve your teams."},{"startTime":665.092,"endTime":670.102,"body":"Well, because they're not gonna pick"},{"startTime":665.092,"endTime":670.102,"body":"the fight that needs to be fought if"},{"startTime":670.102,"endTime":673.132,"body":"you're, if they're always just gonna back"},{"startTime":670.102,"endTime":673.132,"body":"down, but they're well liked, you know?"},{"startTime":673.222,"endTime":673.882,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":673.887,"endTime":674.602,"body":"They're well liked."},{"startTime":674.602,"endTime":676.822,"body":"And they personally doing well, right."},{"startTime":676.822,"endTime":678.232,"body":"Personally, they're doing okay."},{"startTime":678.232,"endTime":680.842,"body":"Cuz they're getting raised"},{"startTime":678.232,"endTime":680.842,"body":"or advanced or whatever."},{"startTime":680.842,"endTime":685.122,"body":"I would argue just from my, my own"},{"startTime":680.842,"endTime":685.122,"body":"career perspective the people who say"},{"startTime":685.122,"endTime":689.822,"body":"yes I was gonna say yes, and just to"},{"startTime":685.122,"endTime":689.822,"body":"be pedantic, but I'm not gonna do that."},{"startTime":690.362,"endTime":693.272,"body":"The people who just say yes and"},{"startTime":690.362,"endTime":693.272,"body":"don't follow it up with anything."},{"startTime":693.702,"endTime":698.092,"body":"A lot of them do get ahead over and above"},{"startTime":693.702,"endTime":698.092,"body":"the people who are like, Ooh, let's talk"},{"startTime":698.092,"endTime":699.472,"body":"about this and let's talk about that."},{"startTime":699.472,"endTime":701.572,"body":"And let's weigh both sides or"},{"startTime":699.472,"endTime":701.572,"body":"whatever the people who just"},{"startTime":701.572,"endTime":703.012,"body":"say, oh yeah, we can do that."},{"startTime":704.242,"endTime":706.792,"body":"And kind of pass that pain"},{"startTime":704.242,"endTime":706.792,"body":"along to the team or whatever."},{"startTime":707.002,"endTime":707.782,"body":"This is what I was saying."},{"startTime":707.782,"endTime":710.052,"body":"It sure they don't , yeah,"},{"startTime":707.782,"endTime":710.052,"body":"they do well by the team."},{"startTime":710.052,"endTime":711.432,"body":"Yeah, because that's what they're doing."},{"startTime":711.522,"endTime":712.032,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":712.037,"endTime":716.742,"body":"I, but, from being a team member,"},{"startTime":712.037,"endTime":716.742,"body":"I know that the team, everybody on"},{"startTime":716.742,"endTime":718.632,"body":"the team knows that that's happen."},{"startTime":719.112,"endTime":722.232,"body":"Everyone on the team knows that"},{"startTime":719.112,"endTime":722.232,"body":"like you have a team lead or a"},{"startTime":722.472,"endTime":725.222,"body":"lead developer or some, a senior"},{"startTime":722.472,"endTime":725.222,"body":"developer or whatever,  they're"},{"startTime":725.222,"endTime":727.802,"body":"just a yes man or a woman, I guess."},{"startTime":727.952,"endTime":732.242,"body":"Although I, I don't think I've ever"},{"startTime":727.952,"endTime":732.242,"body":"been on a team with a yes woman."},{"startTime":732.752,"endTime":733.952,"body":"Usually it's been a yes, man."},{"startTime":734.162,"endTime":735.482,"body":"That's not what this podcast is about."},{"startTime":735.482,"endTime":737.222,"body":"So , I'm gonna abandon this topic."},{"startTime":739.802,"endTime":739.982,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":740.042,"endTime":744.302,"body":"So those people are well liked"},{"startTime":740.042,"endTime":744.302,"body":"only by people on the periphery,"},{"startTime":744.302,"endTime":745.592,"body":"not the team to his point."},{"startTime":745.592,"endTime":745.742,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":745.742,"endTime":748.472,"body":"The team knows that this person's"},{"startTime":745.742,"endTime":748.472,"body":"always making commitments."},{"startTime":748.502,"endTime":752.792,"body":"Mm-hmm  and simply shifting the blame on"},{"startTime":748.502,"endTime":752.792,"body":"us when those commitments can't be met."},{"startTime":752.882,"endTime":753.032,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":753.152,"endTime":755.852,"body":"So they're not well liked by the"},{"startTime":753.152,"endTime":755.852,"body":"team necessarily, but they're well"},{"startTime":755.852,"endTime":760.572,"body":"liked by those on the periphery and"},{"startTime":755.852,"endTime":760.572,"body":"maybe above  cuz they're hearing"},{"startTime":760.572,"endTime":761.592,"body":"the answers they want to hear."},{"startTime":761.712,"endTime":761.952,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":762.432,"endTime":764.682,"body":"So how do you stay true to yourself?"},{"startTime":764.682,"endTime":770.562,"body":"Look out for the team and respectfully"},{"startTime":764.682,"endTime":770.562,"body":"say no, well no's a shorter word than yes."},{"startTime":770.562,"endTime":774.582,"body":"So it should come more naturally to"},{"startTime":770.562,"endTime":774.582,"body":"say no, I'd say just always have the"},{"startTime":774.582,"endTime":779.892,"body":"interest of the team at heart, but"},{"startTime":774.582,"endTime":779.892,"body":"don't say no in all situations you"},{"startTime":779.892,"endTime":782.292,"body":"can say no without using the word."},{"startTime":782.412,"endTime":782.742,"body":"No."},{"startTime":782.802,"endTime":783.102,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":783.672,"endTime":786.232,"body":"Always use the opportunity"},{"startTime":783.672,"endTime":786.232,"body":"cost argument too."},{"startTime":786.232,"endTime":789.412,"body":"Just say if we were to do"},{"startTime":786.232,"endTime":789.412,"body":"that, what are we not doing?"},{"startTime":789.712,"endTime":790.012,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":790.012,"endTime":790.312,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":790.822,"endTime":793.012,"body":"That gets people to think"},{"startTime":790.822,"endTime":793.012,"body":"about the alternate."},{"startTime":795.022,"endTime":795.143,"body":"That's good."},{"startTime":795.143,"endTime":795.144,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":795.144,"endTime":795.146,"body":"So yeah."},{"startTime":795.146,"endTime":795.147,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":795.147,"endTime":795.392,"body":"I could see that."},{"startTime":795.397,"endTime":796.637,"body":"What pain would it cause us."},{"startTime":797.212,"endTime":798.432,"body":"mm-hmm  yeah, mm-hmm,"},{"startTime":798.512,"endTime":800.612,"body":"I can do this from a product perspective."},{"startTime":800.972,"endTime":804.752,"body":"Mm-hmm  because I, I will"},{"startTime":800.972,"endTime":804.752,"body":"say no to the people."},{"startTime":804.752,"endTime":809.402,"body":"I have the ability inside the organization"},{"startTime":804.752,"endTime":809.402,"body":"to say no to, cause I'll just tell them no"},{"startTime":809.862,"endTime":811.932,"body":"no, we're not, that's not a high priority."},{"startTime":812.082,"endTime":813.072,"body":"We got those other things."},{"startTime":813.132,"endTime":815.692,"body":"They're a higher priority"},{"startTime":813.132,"endTime":815.692,"body":"and no, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":815.992,"endTime":819.437,"body":"other people, I might be more graceful"},{"startTime":815.992,"endTime":819.437,"body":"with to be like, that's in the backlog."},{"startTime":820.217,"endTime":825.077,"body":"It's it's not come up to be something that"},{"startTime":820.217,"endTime":825.077,"body":"we've refined yet, but we, but it is in"},{"startTime":825.077,"endTime":830.887,"body":"our, on our roadmap to deal with other"},{"startTime":825.077,"endTime":830.887,"body":"people might need more grace to deal with."},{"startTime":831.217,"endTime":831.247,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":831.297,"endTime":835.757,"body":"where I tell them this potential"},{"startTime":831.297,"endTime":835.757,"body":"feature there's different personas"},{"startTime":835.757,"endTime":837.107,"body":"that we could implement it for."},{"startTime":837.257,"endTime":839.627,"body":"I have to think about who"},{"startTime":837.257,"endTime":839.627,"body":"we're gonna implement it for"},{"startTime":839.627,"endTime":841.547,"body":"before we do it in production."},{"startTime":842.717,"endTime":842.747,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":842.747,"endTime":843.647,"body":"And, and, and that's how I'll tell them."},{"startTime":843.647,"endTime":847.557,"body":"No, but basically , no, as in, not"},{"startTime":843.647,"endTime":847.557,"body":"yet, because we haven't thought"},{"startTime":847.557,"endTime":850.287,"body":"deep enough about it, that kind"},{"startTime":847.557,"endTime":850.287,"body":"of, no, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":850.677,"endTime":853.847,"body":"But people I can tell no"},{"startTime":850.677,"endTime":853.847,"body":"no, like a hard, no, no."},{"startTime":853.907,"endTime":857.117,"body":"To, I will tell them no, as a"},{"startTime":853.907,"endTime":857.117,"body":"product person, I'll be like,"},{"startTime":857.117,"endTime":858.167,"body":"no, we're not doing that."},{"startTime":858.527,"endTime":859.427,"body":"There's no money in that."},{"startTime":860.127,"endTime":861.777,"body":"It would take the team"},{"startTime":860.127,"endTime":861.777,"body":"too much to deal with that"},{"startTime":862.857,"endTime":867.177,"body":"let me flip to the other side I'm"},{"startTime":862.857,"endTime":867.177,"body":"gonna tag you in on, well, like flip"},{"startTime":867.177,"endTime":869.577,"body":"to the other side of the house, the"},{"startTime":867.177,"endTime":869.577,"body":"scrum master side of the house, I'm,"},{"startTime":869.582,"endTime":871.047,"body":"I'm totally cutting to the end of this."},{"startTime":871.827,"endTime":871.887,"body":"Oh."},{"startTime":871.887,"endTime":873.837,"body":"Flipping to the scrum"},{"startTime":871.887,"endTime":873.837,"body":"master side of the house."},{"startTime":874.167,"endTime":875.937,"body":"What is the product equivalent of that?"},{"startTime":876.177,"endTime":880.497,"body":"Cause because I am willing to go all"},{"startTime":876.177,"endTime":880.497,"body":"the way up to the executive level"},{"startTime":880.617,"endTime":886.477,"body":"with my like hard, no on certain"},{"startTime":880.617,"endTime":886.477,"body":"things because I have users behind it."},{"startTime":886.657,"endTime":889.327,"body":"I have other roadmap features behind it."},{"startTime":889.327,"endTime":896.047,"body":"I have, I, because I'm me, it's not"},{"startTime":889.327,"endTime":896.047,"body":"just anecdotal I have actual experiments"},{"startTime":896.047,"endTime":897.817,"body":"that we've done and data to back it up."},{"startTime":898.327,"endTime":898.477,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":898.477,"endTime":901.957,"body":"I'll give you a real example from the"},{"startTime":898.477,"endTime":901.957,"body":"scrum master side of the house then."},{"startTime":902.137,"endTime":902.257,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":902.287,"endTime":905.907,"body":"So let's say let's say somebody"},{"startTime":902.287,"endTime":905.907,"body":"doesn't matter who really oh."},{"startTime":905.907,"endTime":908.057,"body":"Says that Let's go to three week sprints."},{"startTime":908.117,"endTime":908.807,"body":"How about four?"},{"startTime":908.885,"endTime":912.555,"body":"How our developers aren't able to"},{"startTime":908.885,"endTime":912.555,"body":"deliver things to testers soon enough."},{"startTime":912.555,"endTime":914.955,"body":"So the testers can get"},{"startTime":912.555,"endTime":914.955,"body":"everything done in two weeks."},{"startTime":914.985,"endTime":916.335,"body":"Two weeks is just not working for us."},{"startTime":916.34,"endTime":916.615,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":916.615,"endTime":916.775,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":916.78,"endTime":917.055,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":917.295,"endTime":921.255,"body":"So that's an example where the"},{"startTime":917.295,"endTime":921.255,"body":"scrum needs take a stand, right?"},{"startTime":921.615,"endTime":922.065,"body":"The yes."},{"startTime":922.065,"endTime":925.395,"body":"Person would probably say,"},{"startTime":922.065,"endTime":925.395,"body":"okay, well what if the, yes."},{"startTime":925.395,"endTime":926.025,"body":"Is that for me to do?"},{"startTime":926.205,"endTime":926.445,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":926.445,"endTime":928.575,"body":"Person is the superior"},{"startTime":926.445,"endTime":928.575,"body":"to the scrum master."},{"startTime":929.595,"endTime":930.275,"body":"It doesn't matter."},{"startTime":930.275,"endTime":930.345,"body":"Doesn't matter."},{"startTime":931.305,"endTime":935.385,"body":"No, because the scrum master is the"},{"startTime":931.305,"endTime":935.385,"body":"person who is the expert on process."},{"startTime":935.655,"endTime":939.045,"body":"And it's their role to coach"},{"startTime":935.655,"endTime":939.045,"body":"up in the organization."},{"startTime":939.735,"endTime":940.725,"body":"What if they're superiors the agile coach?"},{"startTime":941.745,"endTime":942.645,"body":"It's zero old coach."},{"startTime":942.645,"endTime":945.165,"body":"Are we on a conflict resolution"},{"startTime":942.645,"endTime":945.165,"body":"right now that I have to step into"},{"startTime":945.345,"endTime":949.64,"body":"like, well, there's a trifecta"},{"startTime":945.345,"endTime":949.64,"body":"happening in this discussion."},{"startTime":950.27,"endTime":953.15,"body":"Unless we include the leadership,"},{"startTime":950.27,"endTime":953.15,"body":"then there's a, what's a"},{"startTime":953.15,"endTime":956.99,"body":"for AFE, what's quad quad."},{"startTime":957.68,"endTime":959.06,"body":"That's not even real thing."},{"startTime":959.6,"endTime":960.717,"body":"I'm editing all this out."},{"startTime":960.767,"endTime":962.927,"body":"There there's the dev team members."},{"startTime":963.287,"endTime":967.757,"body":"There's a scrum master who's"},{"startTime":963.287,"endTime":967.757,"body":"representative of the process."},{"startTime":967.812,"endTime":970.302,"body":"And then there's a product"},{"startTime":967.812,"endTime":970.302,"body":"person that's included in this."},{"startTime":970.392,"endTime":975.492,"body":"So like, there are multiple voices in"},{"startTime":970.392,"endTime":975.492,"body":"this mm-hmm  so like anybody, like  laying"},{"startTime":975.492,"endTime":977.862,"body":"down a, a dictate to be like, no, no, no."},{"startTime":977.912,"endTime":982.052,"body":"To answer your retort, which was,"},{"startTime":977.912,"endTime":982.052,"body":"which is what is happening now."},{"startTime":982.212,"endTime":987.972,"body":"I would first include all the rest of"},{"startTime":982.212,"endTime":987.972,"body":"the voices in that discussion to be"},{"startTime":987.972,"endTime":990.832,"body":"like, wait a minute I, I understand"},{"startTime":987.972,"endTime":990.832,"body":"you are saying this needs to happen,"},{"startTime":990.832,"endTime":995.272,"body":"but like mm-hmm, , let's figure out if"},{"startTime":990.832,"endTime":995.272,"body":"like, does, is this optimal for product?"},{"startTime":995.632,"endTime":998.032,"body":"Is this optimal for the dev team members?"},{"startTime":998.092,"endTime":1000.882,"body":"And like maybe everyone backs down"},{"startTime":998.092,"endTime":1000.882,"body":"cause they don't wanna deal with a,"},{"startTime":1001.662,"endTime":1005.812,"body":"with one person who's the highest"},{"startTime":1001.662,"endTime":1005.812,"body":"paid person in the room or the most"},{"startTime":1005.812,"endTime":1009.957,"body":"loudest screaming person like that"},{"startTime":1005.812,"endTime":1009.957,"body":"kind of thing kind of situation."},{"startTime":1010.427,"endTime":1014.147,"body":"I almost want to stop right now and let"},{"startTime":1010.427,"endTime":1014.147,"body":"you continue where you, cause you were"},{"startTime":1014.147,"endTime":1016.427,"body":"coming to a point that was very important."},{"startTime":1016.817,"endTime":1018.797,"body":"And I, I kind of like cut in front of it."},{"startTime":1018.857,"endTime":1021.137,"body":"I think you've actually"},{"startTime":1018.857,"endTime":1021.137,"body":"tried to reinforce it."},{"startTime":1021.197,"endTime":1025.557,"body":"So yeah, bring everybody into the"},{"startTime":1021.197,"endTime":1025.557,"body":"conversation, first of all, and then."},{"startTime":1026.567,"endTime":1031.667,"body":"Pivot the issue away from just what"},{"startTime":1026.567,"endTime":1031.667,"body":"is being presented as the problem."},{"startTime":1031.717,"endTime":1033.787,"body":"We can't do development"},{"startTime":1031.717,"endTime":1033.787,"body":"and testing in two weeks."},{"startTime":1033.817,"endTime":1034.147,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1034.517,"endTime":1037.032,"body":"therefore the answer is add"},{"startTime":1034.517,"endTime":1037.032,"body":"an extra week to the sprint."},{"startTime":1037.512,"endTime":1039.432,"body":"How do you stretch from that, to this?"},{"startTime":1039.642,"endTime":1041.052,"body":"So what are the alternatives?"},{"startTime":1041.572,"endTime":1042.497,"body":"What else can we do?"},{"startTime":1042.587,"endTime":1042.797,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1042.997,"endTime":1046.207,"body":"So have that conversation"},{"startTime":1042.997,"endTime":1046.207,"body":"and then to Brian's point, is"},{"startTime":1046.207,"endTime":1047.557,"body":"this optimal for the product?"},{"startTime":1047.797,"endTime":1048.727,"body":"I might ask the question."},{"startTime":1048.727,"endTime":1052.717,"body":"Would it be okay for the business"},{"startTime":1048.727,"endTime":1052.717,"body":"to not see anything for three weeks?"},{"startTime":1052.717,"endTime":1053.227,"body":"Absolutely not."},{"startTime":1053.227,"endTime":1054.547,"body":"And give us feedback."},{"startTime":1054.577,"endTime":1055.267,"body":"Absolutely not."},{"startTime":1056.377,"endTime":1057.127,"body":"Absolutely not."},{"startTime":1057.127,"endTime":1060.757,"body":"And also get outta the room and also like"},{"startTime":1057.127,"endTime":1060.757,"body":"take some vacation and come back when"},{"startTime":1060.757,"endTime":1062.257,"body":"you're ready to talk about same topics."},{"startTime":1062.257,"endTime":1062.497,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1062.497,"endTime":1066.097,"body":"I can't go more than two weeks"},{"startTime":1062.497,"endTime":1066.097,"body":"without talking to a customer."},{"startTime":1066.147,"endTime":1067.227,"body":"Get outta my office,"},{"startTime":1067.257,"endTime":1069.207,"body":"back it up with something like this."},{"startTime":1069.207,"endTime":1069.447,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1069.447,"endTime":1074.157,"body":"Just say, so if we went to three week"},{"startTime":1069.447,"endTime":1074.157,"body":"sprints, it takes three weeks before"},{"startTime":1074.157,"endTime":1078.237,"body":"we show the business something and get"},{"startTime":1074.157,"endTime":1078.237,"body":"feedback and let's say we have to pivot."},{"startTime":1078.627,"endTime":1078.987,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1079.027,"endTime":1081.627,"body":"Mm-hmm  so it takes us a little"},{"startTime":1079.027,"endTime":1081.627,"body":"bit of time to pivot and then"},{"startTime":1081.627,"endTime":1083.007,"body":"another three weeks go by."},{"startTime":1083.577,"endTime":1083.907,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1083.907,"endTime":1087.297,"body":"So let's say six weeks, let's say it"},{"startTime":1083.907,"endTime":1087.297,"body":"takes us only a minute or two to pivot."},{"startTime":1087.357,"endTime":1087.597,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1087.597,"endTime":1091.167,"body":"So, so three weeks get feedback"},{"startTime":1087.597,"endTime":1091.167,"body":"another three weeks, cuz we now went"},{"startTime":1091.167,"endTime":1092.942,"body":"down the pivot that was suggested."},{"startTime":1093.002,"endTime":1093.122,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":1093.332,"endTime":1094.292,"body":"So that's six weeks."},{"startTime":1094.772,"endTime":1099.902,"body":"That's a month and a half that's"},{"startTime":1094.772,"endTime":1099.902,"body":"way too long to go without feedback,"},{"startTime":1100.022,"endTime":1101.552,"body":"you need frequent feedback."},{"startTime":1102.312,"endTime":1106.392,"body":"And for that reason alone, three"},{"startTime":1102.312,"endTime":1106.392,"body":"week sprint is not a good idea."},{"startTime":1106.992,"endTime":1108.552,"body":"Gotta hear now at the same time."},{"startTime":1109.482,"endTime":1111.612,"body":"And I would probably phrase it"},{"startTime":1109.482,"endTime":1111.612,"body":"differently, but I would ask"},{"startTime":1111.612,"endTime":1113.682,"body":"those team members that are"},{"startTime":1111.612,"endTime":1113.682,"body":"pushing for the three weeks."},{"startTime":1114.102,"endTime":1117.402,"body":"What makes you confident that"},{"startTime":1114.102,"endTime":1117.402,"body":"you can deliver in three weeks?"},{"startTime":1117.462,"endTime":1119.232,"body":"That, which you cannot"},{"startTime":1117.462,"endTime":1119.232,"body":"in two weeks, right?"},{"startTime":1119.292,"endTime":1119.682,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1119.742,"endTime":1123.642,"body":"Can we slice our stories vertically"},{"startTime":1119.742,"endTime":1123.642,"body":"a little bit so we can get things"},{"startTime":1123.642,"endTime":1125.352,"body":"done faster and get 'em to death?"},{"startTime":1125.502,"endTime":1129.612,"body":"That's the answer, not three, cuz our"},{"startTime":1125.502,"endTime":1129.612,"body":"stories are big and they remain big."},{"startTime":1129.617,"endTime":1131.802,"body":"So in, in a few spirits, they'll"},{"startTime":1129.617,"endTime":1131.802,"body":"come back to you and say,"},{"startTime":1131.802,"endTime":1132.882,"body":"three's not working for us."},{"startTime":1132.882,"endTime":1133.692,"body":"Can we go to four?"},{"startTime":1134.382,"endTime":1134.742,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1136.572,"endTime":1136.932,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1137.142,"endTime":1141.517,"body":"All I was thinking was  how uh,"},{"startTime":1137.142,"endTime":1141.517,"body":"this is a totally different topic."},{"startTime":1141.517,"endTime":1143.407,"body":"So if you wanna cut this out, feel free."},{"startTime":1143.412,"endTime":1144.997,"body":"We can discuss this at a different time."},{"startTime":1144.997,"endTime":1145.327,"body":"Nope."},{"startTime":1145.327,"endTime":1150.057,"body":"We let signals how the, the certification"},{"startTime":1145.327,"endTime":1150.057,"body":"to become a scrum master does not"},{"startTime":1150.057,"endTime":1152.577,"body":"prepare you for the real role."},{"startTime":1152.577,"endTime":1156.117,"body":"This is like the events you learn about"},{"startTime":1152.577,"endTime":1156.117,"body":"the events as a scrum master mm-hmm"},{"startTime":1156.357,"endTime":1160.767,"body":"and that's I think 10% of the role"},{"startTime":1156.357,"endTime":1160.767,"body":"is the events because realistically"},{"startTime":1160.917,"endTime":1163.947,"body":"you're navigating conversations, like"},{"startTime":1160.917,"endTime":1163.947,"body":"you just said mm-hmm  and you can't"},{"startTime":1163.952,"endTime":1165.567,"body":"learn that from the scrum guide."},{"startTime":1165.837,"endTime":1166.707,"body":"No, you cannot."},{"startTime":1166.712,"endTime":1168.957,"body":"You have to be in the room to learn that."},{"startTime":1168.957,"endTime":1169.257,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1169.257,"endTime":1170.517,"body":"Mm-hmm  I mean, how else do you run that?"},{"startTime":1170.837,"endTime":1174.207,"body":"You can listen to"},{"startTime":1170.837,"endTime":1174.207,"body":"podcasts like us arguing."},{"startTime":1174.207,"endTime":1175.057,"body":"You also need some experience."},{"startTime":1175.437,"endTime":1177.017,"body":"You do need the experience you need."},{"startTime":1177.477,"endTime":1178.857,"body":"Yeah, I agree with you there."},{"startTime":1179.427,"endTime":1184.367,"body":"until now we were talking about why what,"},{"startTime":1179.427,"endTime":1184.367,"body":"and kind of why at the same time and like"},{"startTime":1184.367,"endTime":1189.917,"body":"you just segued us into the who, like"},{"startTime":1184.367,"endTime":1189.917,"body":"there are people in the organization,"},{"startTime":1190.067,"endTime":1195.327,"body":"corporate America specifically, when I"},{"startTime":1190.067,"endTime":1195.327,"body":"talk about who there are people who have"},{"startTime":1195.327,"endTime":1200.937,"body":"natural talent in the organization for"},{"startTime":1195.327,"endTime":1200.937,"body":"what we're talking about now, a natural"},{"startTime":1200.937,"endTime":1207.037,"body":"talent for mediation, natural talent"},{"startTime":1200.937,"endTime":1207.037,"body":"for reiterating people's points and,"},{"startTime":1207.087,"endTime":1208.707,"body":"and bringing them up in a different way."},{"startTime":1208.712,"endTime":1214.087,"body":"That's not so incendiary but  that"},{"startTime":1208.712,"endTime":1214.087,"body":"skill, that ability I, I don't really"},{"startTime":1214.087,"endTime":1218.137,"body":"know where it lives  in the, in the"},{"startTime":1214.087,"endTime":1218.137,"body":"traditional corporate structure."},{"startTime":1218.537,"endTime":1221.177,"body":"Like I would, I would"},{"startTime":1218.537,"endTime":1221.177,"body":"hope that it lives in HR."},{"startTime":1221.177,"endTime":1221.387,"body":"Some."},{"startTime":1222.367,"endTime":1225.167,"body":"Mm-hmm  you know, that, that's why"},{"startTime":1222.367,"endTime":1225.167,"body":"when people have brought up in the"},{"startTime":1225.167,"endTime":1228.707,"body":"past oh, where should scrum masters"},{"startTime":1225.167,"endTime":1228.707,"body":"sit organizationally and blah."},{"startTime":1228.707,"endTime":1230.927,"body":"I'm like, well, let's just sit under HR."},{"startTime":1231.677,"endTime":1233.207,"body":"And people are like, Brian, you're crazy."},{"startTime":1233.207,"endTime":1235.457,"body":"I'm like, well, I mean, am I crazy?"},{"startTime":1236.117,"endTime":1240.2,"body":"Because the people in the organization"},{"startTime":1236.117,"endTime":1240.2,"body":"that have these skills, they're more"},{"startTime":1240.2,"endTime":1242.3,"body":"aligned under HR than anybody else."},{"startTime":1242.75,"endTime":1248.09,"body":"They're more aligned in saying like, let"},{"startTime":1242.75,"endTime":1248.09,"body":"me align opinions between people, let"},{"startTime":1248.09,"endTime":1253.43,"body":"me build consensus, let me deescalate"},{"startTime":1248.09,"endTime":1253.43,"body":"conflict and then escalate it back up to"},{"startTime":1253.435,"endTime":1255.23,"body":"what is beneficial to your organization."},{"startTime":1255.38,"endTime":1257.33,"body":"Like who trains in these skills."},{"startTime":1258.49,"endTime":1260.92,"body":"It is not in the technical"},{"startTime":1258.49,"endTime":1260.92,"body":"wing of the organization."},{"startTime":1261.13,"endTime":1261.91,"body":"Not at all."},{"startTime":1262.48,"endTime":1263.2,"body":"Absolutely not."},{"startTime":1263.83,"endTime":1265.87,"body":"No, they don't learn this stuff anywhere."},{"startTime":1265.87,"endTime":1267.61,"body":"It's not that you go to"},{"startTime":1265.87,"endTime":1267.61,"body":"school, they learn this stuff."},{"startTime":1267.61,"endTime":1267.85,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1267.855,"endTime":1268.08,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1268.27,"endTime":1270.85,"body":"Unfortunately, scrum"},{"startTime":1268.27,"endTime":1270.85,"body":"masters, Azure coaches."},{"startTime":1270.85,"endTime":1274.45,"body":"I mean, we all report into the"},{"startTime":1270.85,"endTime":1274.45,"body":"technical side of the house."},{"startTime":1274.45,"endTime":1274.57,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1274.62,"endTime":1279.03,"body":"Whereas to your point, HR,"},{"startTime":1274.62,"endTime":1279.03,"body":"they learn these soft skills"},{"startTime":1279.45,"endTime":1281.34,"body":"as part of their job, maybe."},{"startTime":1281.4,"endTime":1281.7,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1281.705,"endTime":1282.06,"body":"They do."},{"startTime":1282.38,"endTime":1282.75,"body":"They do."},{"startTime":1282.78,"endTime":1283.23,"body":"Maybe."},{"startTime":1283.26,"endTime":1283.74,"body":"No, they do."},{"startTime":1283.74,"endTime":1285.3,"body":"Some are better at it than others."},{"startTime":1285.33,"endTime":1286.83,"body":"Mm-hmm  maybe, but they take size."},{"startTime":1286.83,"endTime":1288.48,"body":"So here's the other"},{"startTime":1286.83,"endTime":1288.48,"body":"thing that happens today?"},{"startTime":1288.72,"endTime":1289.89,"body":"Well, I have a knife fight."},{"startTime":1289.89,"endTime":1292.77,"body":"Are we gonna get in a knife"},{"startTime":1289.89,"endTime":1292.77,"body":"fight very poorly by HR."},{"startTime":1292.77,"endTime":1293.4,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1293.4,"endTime":1298.0,"body":"That listen, that like I agree with you,"},{"startTime":1293.4,"endTime":1298.0,"body":"but I, I, I'm not cutting any of this out."},{"startTime":1298.21,"endTime":1300.97,"body":"I agree with you, but only in so far."},{"startTime":1300.975,"endTime":1303.04,"body":"Oh, That's such a great phrase."},{"startTime":1303.61,"endTime":1309.66,"body":"So far as only in so far as you like"},{"startTime":1303.61,"endTime":1309.66,"body":"the HR people in the HR, or if we're in"},{"startTime":1309.66,"endTime":1316.11,"body":"the UK, HR, HR, people, people are not"},{"startTime":1309.66,"endTime":1316.11,"body":"like specifically the hatchet, men of"},{"startTime":1316.11,"endTime":1320.46,"body":"the C-suite like they, they're not the"},{"startTime":1316.11,"endTime":1320.46,"body":"like armed combatants of the C-suite."},{"startTime":1320.73,"endTime":1323.04,"body":"They actually are meant"},{"startTime":1320.73,"endTime":1323.04,"body":"to serve the organization."},{"startTime":1323.48,"endTime":1327.95,"body":"But if they're that traditional role of"},{"startTime":1323.48,"endTime":1327.95,"body":"their they're only there to execute on,"},{"startTime":1328.04,"endTime":1330.44,"body":"on literally execute, literally execute."},{"startTime":1330.445,"endTime":1332.9,"body":"But like when we need"},{"startTime":1330.445,"endTime":1332.9,"body":"to fire people, yeah."},{"startTime":1332.905,"endTime":1333.98,"body":"I'm not talking about those people."},{"startTime":1334.01,"endTime":1334.22,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1334.83,"endTime":1337.17,"body":"."},{"startTime":1334.83,"endTime":1337.17,"body":"I, it is what it is, folks"},{"startTime":1337.45,"endTime":1343.82,"body":"people that are actually coming"},{"startTime":1337.45,"endTime":1343.82,"body":"through sh RM or whatever it is, right?"},{"startTime":1344.06,"endTime":1349.16,"body":"These people are certified and"},{"startTime":1344.06,"endTime":1349.16,"body":"they're educated in the art of HR."},{"startTime":1349.4,"endTime":1353.51,"body":"They, they're not there just to"},{"startTime":1349.4,"endTime":1353.51,"body":"take a spreadsheet and go, ah, these"},{"startTime":1353.51,"endTime":1355.4,"body":"ones are red fire, these people,"},{"startTime":1355.45,"endTime":1359.11,"body":"I'm talking about people that have"},{"startTime":1355.45,"endTime":1359.11,"body":"the soft skills to have negotiation"},{"startTime":1359.11,"endTime":1361.3,"body":"skills, to have discussions with people."},{"startTime":1361.305,"endTime":1363.34,"body":"And it doesn't have to be"},{"startTime":1361.305,"endTime":1363.34,"body":"technical people either."},{"startTime":1363.4,"endTime":1364.24,"body":"It can be anybody."},{"startTime":1364.66,"endTime":1370.03,"body":"So there's some element of that now to"},{"startTime":1364.66,"endTime":1370.03,"body":"your point, I've seen it done very poorly."},{"startTime":1370.09,"endTime":1373.84,"body":"Mm-hmm  and what's worse is I've seen."},{"startTime":1374.41,"endTime":1379.78,"body":"Middle managers that are not in HR,"},{"startTime":1374.41,"endTime":1379.78,"body":"go to HR with an edict basically,"},{"startTime":1379.78,"endTime":1381.55,"body":"and say, we need to fire this person."},{"startTime":1382.06,"endTime":1383.53,"body":"They're not a, they're not a team player."},{"startTime":1384.01,"endTime":1384.43,"body":"Mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":1384.435,"endTime":1389.2,"body":"And now the HR person doesn't really"},{"startTime":1384.435,"endTime":1389.2,"body":"have they, they should do the due"},{"startTime":1389.2,"endTime":1392.355,"body":"diligence, but they don't sure"},{"startTime":1389.2,"endTime":1392.355,"body":"they take the directive of, yeah,"},{"startTime":1392.385,"endTime":1393.615,"body":"we need to get rid of this person."},{"startTime":1393.615,"endTime":1396.765,"body":"They call 'em in and they"},{"startTime":1393.615,"endTime":1396.765,"body":"do the exit interview."},{"startTime":1397.035,"endTime":1397.395,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1397.755,"endTime":1402.195,"body":"But that's an, I'm talking, I'm talking"},{"startTime":1397.755,"endTime":1402.195,"body":"about real facilitation skills where"},{"startTime":1402.195,"endTime":1406.005,"body":"they can be brought in, listened to their"},{"startTime":1402.195,"endTime":1406.005,"body":"side of the story and see if their skill"},{"startTime":1406.005,"endTime":1407.175,"body":"set could be leveraged somewhere else."},{"startTime":1407.18,"endTime":1410.065,"body":"Maybe they're not in the right"},{"startTime":1407.18,"endTime":1410.065,"body":"place, in the right role in the"},{"startTime":1410.065,"endTime":1411.385,"body":"organization, but they have skills."},{"startTime":1411.565,"endTime":1413.965,"body":"Maybe they can be deployed"},{"startTime":1411.565,"endTime":1413.965,"body":"somewhere else in the organization."},{"startTime":1413.965,"endTime":1414.235,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1414.745,"endTime":1415.945,"body":"Look at alternatives like that."},{"startTime":1416.545,"endTime":1418.345,"body":"No, that doesn't happen very often."},{"startTime":1418.345,"endTime":1422.605,"body":"Unfortunately, cuz you know, we, we"},{"startTime":1418.345,"endTime":1422.605,"body":"work in large companies that are largely"},{"startTime":1422.635,"endTime":1426.355,"body":"like matrixed and that's where you"},{"startTime":1422.635,"endTime":1426.355,"body":"get the middle manager going straight"},{"startTime":1426.36,"endTime":1428.155,"body":"to HR saying, get rid of this person."},{"startTime":1428.255,"endTime":1428.475,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":1429.325,"endTime":1431.295,"body":"So that's where it all falls apart for me."},{"startTime":1431.445,"endTime":1431.955,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1431.995,"endTime":1432.285,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1432.345,"endTime":1433.155,"body":"That makes sense."},{"startTime":1433.815,"endTime":1435.915,"body":"Well, I wanna give you"},{"startTime":1433.815,"endTime":1435.915,"body":"guys another hypothetical."},{"startTime":1436.215,"endTime":1436.665,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1437.335,"endTime":1443.605,"body":"What if you're in a meeting with"},{"startTime":1437.335,"endTime":1443.605,"body":"all of your peers and you are say"},{"startTime":1443.875,"endTime":1448.915,"body":"blatantly disrespected, undermine"},{"startTime":1443.875,"endTime":1448.915,"body":"talked over whatever, fill in the blank."},{"startTime":1449.455,"endTime":1449.845,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1450.385,"endTime":1451.515,"body":"How do you respond in the."},{"startTime":1452.08,"endTime":1453.4,"body":"How do you respond outside of the meeting?"},{"startTime":1453.45,"endTime":1457.81,"body":"So somebody is deliberate, some somebody,"},{"startTime":1453.45,"endTime":1457.81,"body":"or somebody's are they deliberately"},{"startTime":1457.81,"endTime":1459.34,"body":"undermining you in this meeting?"},{"startTime":1460.03,"endTime":1460.3,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1460.75,"endTime":1467.11,"body":"A peer, a, a member of a team, a somebody"},{"startTime":1460.75,"endTime":1467.11,"body":"in a supervisory level, like what, what,"},{"startTime":1467.17,"endTime":1470.14,"body":"what do we, so they would, they would"},{"startTime":1467.17,"endTime":1470.14,"body":"change how so say in this instance, it's"},{"startTime":1470.145,"endTime":1472.06,"body":"another peer, we'll start with that."},{"startTime":1472.065,"endTime":1473.65,"body":"And then we'll go to superior."},{"startTime":1473.71,"endTime":1475.18,"body":"Cuz I wanna hear the difference too."},{"startTime":1475.27,"endTime":1475.33,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":1476.32,"endTime":1476.53,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1476.535,"endTime":1480.19,"body":"I mean, if they're undermining"},{"startTime":1476.535,"endTime":1480.19,"body":"you, you know your opinions, right?"},{"startTime":1480.19,"endTime":1481.63,"body":"Are they still giving you air time?"},{"startTime":1481.68,"endTime":1482.98,"body":"Are, are they letting you speak?"},{"startTime":1482.98,"endTime":1486.46,"body":"Because if they're not letting you"},{"startTime":1482.98,"endTime":1486.46,"body":"speak, you would behave a different way."},{"startTime":1486.64,"endTime":1489.37,"body":"Mm-hmm . Then if you are able"},{"startTime":1486.64,"endTime":1489.37,"body":"to speak, then it's up to you to"},{"startTime":1489.37,"endTime":1490.78,"body":"make your point basically, right?"},{"startTime":1490.78,"endTime":1493.22,"body":"Because you've got the air"},{"startTime":1490.78,"endTime":1493.22,"body":"time you need in the room."},{"startTime":1493.43,"endTime":1498.08,"body":"But if they're not letting you"},{"startTime":1493.43,"endTime":1498.08,"body":"speak, I would simply just do this."},{"startTime":1498.23,"endTime":1501.14,"body":"Raise your hand and, and say nothing."},{"startTime":1501.2,"endTime":1502.79,"body":"Just raise your hand, let them speak."},{"startTime":1503.39,"endTime":1505.16,"body":"Let, let them just talk it out."},{"startTime":1505.34,"endTime":1508.73,"body":"Whatever they have to say, they have"},{"startTime":1505.34,"endTime":1508.73,"body":"to stop at some point, take a breath."},{"startTime":1509.21,"endTime":1513.44,"body":"Somebody else in the room might"},{"startTime":1509.21,"endTime":1513.44,"body":"clue on that and say, Jessica,"},{"startTime":1513.44,"endTime":1514.4,"body":"you have something to say, right?"},{"startTime":1515.3,"endTime":1519.05,"body":"That's the clue that now you go in"},{"startTime":1515.3,"endTime":1519.05,"body":"and you say yes, if I can finish my"},{"startTime":1519.05,"endTime":1523.67,"body":"thought for a couple of minutes now,"},{"startTime":1519.05,"endTime":1523.67,"body":"I don't agree with this because, and"},{"startTime":1523.67,"endTime":1525.23,"body":"now you can get your point across."},{"startTime":1525.71,"endTime":1527.9,"body":"And, and that is not"},{"startTime":1525.71,"endTime":1527.9,"body":"disrespecting the person who."},{"startTime":1528.635,"endTime":1529.025,"body":"You know?"},{"startTime":1529.085,"endTime":1529.205,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1529.205,"endTime":1530.105,"body":"Who's doing this to you."},{"startTime":1530.105,"endTime":1532.085,"body":"That is simply using the room."},{"startTime":1532.205,"endTime":1532.385,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1532.745,"endTime":1535.715,"body":"To get your time slice to talk."},{"startTime":1535.965,"endTime":1538.445,"body":"Mm mm-hmm  yeah."},{"startTime":1538.535,"endTime":1538.865,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":1539.615,"endTime":1542.615,"body":"You could always use the shaman"},{"startTime":1539.615,"endTime":1542.615,"body":"stick thing as well, right?"},{"startTime":1542.915,"endTime":1544.745,"body":"Well, yeah, you could."},{"startTime":1545.045,"endTime":1548.015,"body":"And then after the meeting you would"},{"startTime":1545.045,"endTime":1548.015,"body":"go to this individual one-on one."},{"startTime":1548.02,"endTime":1548.285,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1548.285,"endTime":1551.375,"body":"After the meeting, you would, you"},{"startTime":1548.285,"endTime":1551.375,"body":"would go to this individual one on one,"},{"startTime":1551.495,"endTime":1555.935,"body":"and again, you shouldn't go in there"},{"startTime":1551.495,"endTime":1555.935,"body":"with the intention of locking horns"},{"startTime":1555.935,"endTime":1558.455,"body":"with them attempting as it might be."},{"startTime":1558.605,"endTime":1558.905,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1558.975,"endTime":1559.135,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1559.175,"endTime":1563.915,"body":"You would go in there and say, I, I"},{"startTime":1559.175,"endTime":1563.915,"body":"firmly believe in what I said now."},{"startTime":1564.005,"endTime":1565.535,"body":"Now think about what I just said."},{"startTime":1565.595,"endTime":1568.235,"body":"I didn't say I believe you're wrong."},{"startTime":1568.235,"endTime":1571.205,"body":"Mm-hmm  don't use the U word, right."},{"startTime":1571.205,"endTime":1572.375,"body":"I believe I'm right."},{"startTime":1572.375,"endTime":1573.545,"body":"Because right."},{"startTime":1573.545,"endTime":1575.855,"body":"And then let them make their position."},{"startTime":1576.005,"endTime":1576.275,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1576.355,"endTime":1577.805,"body":"Mm-hmm  yeah."},{"startTime":1577.805,"endTime":1581.555,"body":"So how would you start the conversation"},{"startTime":1577.805,"endTime":1581.555,"body":"by like discussing what the goal?"},{"startTime":1581.615,"endTime":1585.215,"body":"Maybe having some like casual,"},{"startTime":1581.615,"endTime":1585.215,"body":"verbal working agreement, right?"},{"startTime":1586.625,"endTime":1587.785,"body":"well you mean one on one or?"},{"startTime":1587.935,"endTime":1588.667,"body":"Well, yeah, in a one on one."},{"startTime":1588.785,"endTime":1589.385,"body":"No one on one."},{"startTime":1589.685,"endTime":1591.605,"body":"Well, yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":1591.605,"endTime":1595.225,"body":"I mean, you would say the reason why"},{"startTime":1591.605,"endTime":1595.225,"body":"we're in these roles is what we're trying"},{"startTime":1595.23,"endTime":1597.325,"body":"to do is, and we're on the same side."},{"startTime":1597.455,"endTime":1597.745,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1597.805,"endTime":1598.705,"body":"We're on the same side."},{"startTime":1598.705,"endTime":1602.005,"body":"We're trying to do things you are,"},{"startTime":1598.705,"endTime":1602.005,"body":"we're seeing two sides of a coin."},{"startTime":1602.215,"endTime":1602.575,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1602.965,"endTime":1608.125,"body":"And this is why I believe we"},{"startTime":1602.965,"endTime":1608.125,"body":"should do things this way and"},{"startTime":1608.245,"endTime":1609.415,"body":"let them make their point."},{"startTime":1610.395,"endTime":1613.005,"body":"Sure what if they get defensive."},{"startTime":1614.34,"endTime":1614.85,"body":"that's fine."},{"startTime":1614.85,"endTime":1615.9,"body":"That's their prerogative, right?"},{"startTime":1616.0,"endTime":1617.07,"body":"Mm-hmm  they can get defensive."},{"startTime":1617.07,"endTime":1620.4,"body":"They can, they might even get"},{"startTime":1617.07,"endTime":1620.4,"body":"really like aggressive too."},{"startTime":1620.55,"endTime":1621.42,"body":"Mm-hmm  mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":1621.84,"endTime":1625.44,"body":"But if they get defensive they're"},{"startTime":1621.84,"endTime":1625.44,"body":"are they defending their position?"},{"startTime":1625.44,"endTime":1629.58,"body":"If they're defending their position, at"},{"startTime":1625.44,"endTime":1629.58,"body":"some point you have to decide, how far"},{"startTime":1629.58,"endTime":1631.29,"body":"are you willing to take this, right."},{"startTime":1631.41,"endTime":1631.65,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1631.65,"endTime":1636.45,"body":"And you can just say the classic thing is"},{"startTime":1631.65,"endTime":1636.45,"body":"we'll have to agree to disagree this time."},{"startTime":1636.96,"endTime":1637.32,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1637.37,"endTime":1642.12,"body":"I was trying to say out this one  but"},{"startTime":1637.37,"endTime":1642.12,"body":"also it is different from a scrum master"},{"startTime":1642.12,"endTime":1647.01,"body":"as a coach like team level perspective"},{"startTime":1642.12,"endTime":1647.01,"body":"than from a product perspective."},{"startTime":1647.11,"endTime":1654.49,"body":"because I, I think of this topic from"},{"startTime":1647.11,"endTime":1654.49,"body":"a product perspective, this happens"},{"startTime":1654.49,"endTime":1658.765,"body":"all the time to me which is should we"},{"startTime":1654.49,"endTime":1658.765,"body":"put money into building this product"},{"startTime":1658.765,"endTime":1663.465,"body":"or that product, or this feature or"},{"startTime":1658.765,"endTime":1663.465,"body":"that feature and product manager a for"},{"startTime":1663.515,"endTime":1668.745,"body":"team a will say, oh, we should build"},{"startTime":1663.515,"endTime":1668.745,"body":"this because I think this and , product"},{"startTime":1668.745,"endTime":1671.835,"body":"manager B for team B will say, well,"},{"startTime":1668.745,"endTime":1671.835,"body":"I think we should build this for team."},{"startTime":1672.195,"endTime":1674.385,"body":"Then they could dis you know,"},{"startTime":1672.195,"endTime":1674.385,"body":"they could agree to disagree"},{"startTime":1674.39,"endTime":1675.165,"body":"basically in that meeting."},{"startTime":1675.385,"endTime":1683.315,"body":"But from a product perspective, if we"},{"startTime":1675.385,"endTime":1683.315,"body":"are conflicted about, oh, a path to take"},{"startTime":1683.745,"endTime":1688.84,"body":"well, then we need to do an experiment"},{"startTime":1683.745,"endTime":1688.84,"body":"to figure out which path to take, to"},{"startTime":1688.845,"endTime":1692.83,"body":"figure out where we get signal from"},{"startTime":1688.845,"endTime":1692.83,"body":"to, to figure out which path to take."},{"startTime":1693.37,"endTime":1693.58,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1693.58,"endTime":1696.07,"body":"Cause if we don't have any signal,"},{"startTime":1693.58,"endTime":1696.07,"body":"we can, we can go to path, a"},{"startTime":1696.075,"endTime":1699.22,"body":"path B path, whatever Z or Z."},{"startTime":1700.33,"endTime":1700.39,"body":"Hmm."},{"startTime":1700.395,"endTime":1701.2,"body":"A customer driven."},{"startTime":1701.2,"endTime":1702.02,"body":"That's easy to do."},{"startTime":1702.28,"endTime":1705.465,"body":"If we're a UK customer driven"},{"startTime":1702.28,"endTime":1705.465,"body":"path, Z, Z , then,  there's"},{"startTime":1705.47,"endTime":1706.755,"body":"a million paths we can take."},{"startTime":1706.805,"endTime":1710.675,"body":", but like why don't we try something"},{"startTime":1706.805,"endTime":1710.675,"body":"and see if we get some signal from it."},{"startTime":1711.035,"endTime":1715.355,"body":"And then based on the signal, we'll"},{"startTime":1711.035,"endTime":1715.355,"body":"make an informed decision, right?"},{"startTime":1715.355,"endTime":1718.325,"body":"Like the, the, those of the,"},{"startTime":1715.355,"endTime":1718.325,"body":"we can have those discussions"},{"startTime":1718.325,"endTime":1722.765,"body":"between myself and her herself."},{"startTime":1723.185,"endTime":1726.155,"body":"I don't know if that's a, is that"},{"startTime":1723.185,"endTime":1726.155,"body":"proper myself and herself or myself"},{"startTime":1726.155,"endTime":1727.775,"body":"and her it's is it myself and her?"},{"startTime":1727.895,"endTime":1728.105,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1729.065,"endTime":1729.905,"body":"English language."},{"startTime":1729.905,"endTime":1732.065,"body":"There's gonna be a lot of"},{"startTime":1729.905,"endTime":1732.065,"body":"editing in this podcast."},{"startTime":1732.07,"endTime":1735.275,"body":"Well, her or nice you wanna be proper"},{"startTime":1732.07,"endTime":1735.275,"body":"her and I there's a lot of back and"},{"startTime":1735.275,"endTime":1739.215,"body":"forth discussion between her and I"},{"startTime":1735.275,"endTime":1739.215,"body":"we'll decide based on the evidence"},{"startTime":1739.305,"endTime":1741.405,"body":"that we discover, which path to take."},{"startTime":1741.435,"endTime":1746.475,"body":"And then there are no bruised egos in"},{"startTime":1741.435,"endTime":1746.475,"body":"there because we, because we both agree"},{"startTime":1746.525,"endTime":1751.415,"body":"Hey, let's try something and whatever"},{"startTime":1746.525,"endTime":1751.415,"body":"yields a result, then we'll do that."},{"startTime":1751.475,"endTime":1754.865,"body":"And we're both on the same page"},{"startTime":1751.475,"endTime":1754.865,"body":"of like, oh, well, well we tried"},{"startTime":1755.945,"endTime":1758.405,"body":"and then we figured it out based"},{"startTime":1755.945,"endTime":1758.405,"body":"on based on what we got back"},{"startTime":1758.505,"endTime":1763.935,"body":"I will tell you, honestly, usually"},{"startTime":1758.505,"endTime":1763.935,"body":"it's a, it's, it's sort of a, a mix or"},{"startTime":1763.94,"endTime":1767.835,"body":"it's usually something that neither of"},{"startTime":1763.94,"endTime":1767.835,"body":"us thought about in the first place."},{"startTime":1767.905,"endTime":1769.935,"body":"It's, it's that evidence"},{"startTime":1767.905,"endTime":1769.935,"body":"based approach though, right."},{"startTime":1769.935,"endTime":1771.435,"body":"It's hard to argue against that."},{"startTime":1771.44,"endTime":1772.005,"body":"It's it's logic."},{"startTime":1772.185,"endTime":1772.335,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1773.085,"endTime":1774.545,"body":"But you were talking"},{"startTime":1773.085,"endTime":1774.545,"body":"about team based stuff."},{"startTime":1774.725,"endTime":1779.045,"body":"I pivoted to product based stuff,"},{"startTime":1774.725,"endTime":1779.045,"body":"because to try to emphasize for"},{"startTime":1779.05,"endTime":1782.975,"body":"anyone who's listening to this"},{"startTime":1779.05,"endTime":1782.975,"body":"podcast to try to emphasize like the"},{"startTime":1782.975,"endTime":1788.285,"body":"team based stuff is just evidence"},{"startTime":1782.975,"endTime":1788.285,"body":"based with different evidence."},{"startTime":1788.465,"endTime":1788.615,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1788.615,"endTime":1788.675,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1788.945,"endTime":1793.325,"body":"And, and, and it, it might seem more"},{"startTime":1788.945,"endTime":1793.325,"body":"difficult to get that evidence of the,"},{"startTime":1793.445,"endTime":1797.165,"body":"of the team based approach of like, well,"},{"startTime":1793.445,"endTime":1797.165,"body":"we, should we do this with the teams?"},{"startTime":1797.375,"endTime":1799.175,"body":"Or should, should we"},{"startTime":1797.375,"endTime":1799.175,"body":"do that with the teams?"},{"startTime":1800.225,"endTime":1804.845,"body":"But I mean is it really that difficult"},{"startTime":1800.225,"endTime":1804.845,"body":"or you, or have you just not tried to"},{"startTime":1804.845,"endTime":1807.755,"body":"measure different things organizationally?"},{"startTime":1807.785,"endTime":1807.905,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1807.905,"endTime":1809.415,"body":"It's the latter usually, right?"},{"startTime":1809.445,"endTime":1810.335,"body":"Usually it's the latter."},{"startTime":1810.335,"endTime":1810.605,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1810.605,"endTime":1812.855,"body":"You haven't really dug deep enough."},{"startTime":1813.005,"endTime":1813.275,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1813.575,"endTime":1817.38,"body":"I would say though, if you're"},{"startTime":1813.575,"endTime":1817.38,"body":"looking at Picking up some tips, I"},{"startTime":1817.38,"endTime":1823.22,"body":"guess in how to react in situations"},{"startTime":1817.38,"endTime":1823.22,"body":"where the other person is badly."},{"startTime":1824.99,"endTime":1827.77,"body":"Not, not, not necessarily well"},{"startTime":1824.99,"endTime":1827.77,"body":"verbally attacking you sure."},{"startTime":1827.78,"endTime":1828.49,"body":"Let's say right."},{"startTime":1828.49,"endTime":1828.493,"body":"Verbally attacking you."},{"startTime":1829.04,"endTime":1829.1,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1829.37,"endTime":1833.98,"body":"Just watch, just watch a little bit of the"},{"startTime":1829.37,"endTime":1833.98,"body":"parliament time in the British parliament."},{"startTime":1834.07,"endTime":1834.31,"body":"Oh, precise."},{"startTime":1834.34,"endTime":1835.51,"body":"Watch these people."},{"startTime":1835.56,"endTime":1839.82,"body":"These politicians go at each other,"},{"startTime":1835.56,"endTime":1839.82,"body":"they attack each other all the time."},{"startTime":1840.39,"endTime":1843.33,"body":"Never do they call anybody"},{"startTime":1840.39,"endTime":1843.33,"body":"a bad name or anything?"},{"startTime":1843.72,"endTime":1846.36,"body":"You know, it's the right honorable"},{"startTime":1843.72,"endTime":1846.36,"body":"gentleman doesn't know which side"},{"startTime":1846.39,"endTime":1847.59,"body":"of his head he's talking about."},{"startTime":1847.86,"endTime":1849.87,"body":"That might be extreme,"},{"startTime":1847.86,"endTime":1849.87,"body":"but you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1850.02,"endTime":1852.18,"body":"It's like, so I've, I've not insulted him."},{"startTime":1852.24,"endTime":1854.19,"body":"I've called him the right honorable."},{"startTime":1854.85,"endTime":1855.24,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1855.48,"endTime":1858.3,"body":"But at the same time, it's an art form."},{"startTime":1858.36,"endTime":1858.96,"body":"It really is."},{"startTime":1858.965,"endTime":1861.03,"body":"But they're, they're not"},{"startTime":1858.965,"endTime":1861.03,"body":"letting anything fly."},{"startTime":1861.09,"endTime":1864.88,"body":"Like, like the, this is why I"},{"startTime":1861.09,"endTime":1864.88,"body":"brought up the product thing."},{"startTime":1864.93,"endTime":1868.75,"body":"If someone tells me oh, oh, oh"},{"startTime":1864.93,"endTime":1868.75,"body":"Brian, the majority of customers"},{"startTime":1868.99,"endTime":1873.94,"body":"don't want to click this button"},{"startTime":1868.99,"endTime":1873.94,"body":"first, before they see their report."},{"startTime":1874.07,"endTime":1875.58,"body":"What proof do you have."},{"startTime":1876.17,"endTime":1878.72,"body":"Of the majority of"},{"startTime":1876.17,"endTime":1878.72,"body":"customers want to see that?"},{"startTime":1879.05,"endTime":1881.87,"body":"Show me, show me the evidence of that."},{"startTime":1881.87,"endTime":1882.68,"body":"You, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1882.83,"endTime":1886.07,"body":"Like that would be the, the,"},{"startTime":1882.83,"endTime":1886.07,"body":"the parliamentary equivalent."},{"startTime":1886.07,"endTime":1892.64,"body":"Of like show me what evidence you have"},{"startTime":1886.07,"endTime":1892.64,"body":"that backs up your claim of X, Y, Z,"},{"startTime":1893.09,"endTime":1899.73,"body":"I feel only because I'm in the product"},{"startTime":1893.09,"endTime":1899.73,"body":"space can I say you should lead with that?"},{"startTime":1900.06,"endTime":1901.53,"body":"You should lead with your evidence."},{"startTime":1902.34,"endTime":1902.55,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1902.55,"endTime":1904.42,"body":"Should do that in even on the scrum yeah."},{"startTime":1904.42,"endTime":1905.08,"body":"Scrum master should."},{"startTime":1905.08,"endTime":1905.29,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1905.29,"endTime":1906.03,"body":"With it."},{"startTime":1906.03,"endTime":1910.72,"body":"It's it's I, I think it's harder"},{"startTime":1906.03,"endTime":1910.72,"body":"to do on the scrum master side."},{"startTime":1910.72,"endTime":1913.69,"body":"It's harder, but not than it is on the"},{"startTime":1910.72,"endTime":1913.69,"body":"product side, harder, but not impulsive"},{"startTime":1913.72,"endTime":1914.11,"body":"that's funny."},{"startTime":1914.11,"endTime":1914.47,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1914.475,"endTime":1917.98,"body":"I, I wrote down something can"},{"startTime":1914.475,"endTime":1917.98,"body":"scrum masters be assertive."},{"startTime":1919.3,"endTime":1919.69,"body":"that's all."},{"startTime":1919.69,"endTime":1919.9,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1919.9,"endTime":1920.44,"body":"That's here."},{"startTime":1920.52,"endTime":1921.36,"body":"Can scrum masters?"},{"startTime":1921.36,"endTime":1926.28,"body":"Just say no, like this, this goes back"},{"startTime":1921.36,"endTime":1926.28,"body":"to our super early podcast about meet"},{"startTime":1926.28,"endTime":1927.84,"body":"them where they are, like meet them."},{"startTime":1927.84,"endTime":1932.61,"body":"Oh, well you gotta just meet them where"},{"startTime":1927.84,"endTime":1932.61,"body":"they are, because maybe they don't know"},{"startTime":1932.61,"endTime":1936.78,"body":"anything about scrum and maybe they're"},{"startTime":1932.61,"endTime":1936.78,"body":"kind of doing things all messed up and"},{"startTime":1936.78,"endTime":1942.15,"body":"you guys, you kind of gotta meet them"},{"startTime":1936.78,"endTime":1942.15,"body":"where they are like, I mean, or do you,"},{"startTime":1942.15,"endTime":1943.26,"body":"do you gotta meet them where they are?"},{"startTime":1944.79,"endTime":1945.182,"body":"No, you don't."},{"startTime":1945.182,"endTime":1945.423,"body":"You don't like where they are."},{"startTime":1945.423,"endTime":1945.87,"body":"I mean, I don't like where they are."},{"startTime":1945.87,"endTime":1950.58,"body":"You, we only, we only have, we only"},{"startTime":1945.87,"endTime":1950.58,"body":"have 25 minutes to do a retrospective."},{"startTime":1951.27,"endTime":1955.29,"body":"Do you really need to meet them where"},{"startTime":1951.27,"endTime":1955.29,"body":"they are is 25 minutes enough to"},{"startTime":1955.53,"endTime":1959.52,"body":"like, I, I, I constantly tell people"},{"startTime":1955.53,"endTime":1959.52,"body":"I was like 25 minutes is not even"},{"startTime":1959.52,"endTime":1962.34,"body":"enough to generate ideas and put"},{"startTime":1959.52,"endTime":1962.34,"body":"them on the board and group them."},{"startTime":1962.88,"endTime":1966.06,"body":"I know teams that just take a"},{"startTime":1962.88,"endTime":1966.06,"body":"box and say, we'll just stack"},{"startTime":1966.06,"endTime":1967.98,"body":"on 15 minutes and do a retro."},{"startTime":1968.595,"endTime":1970.335,"body":"At the end of our standup Moster whoa."},{"startTime":1970.755,"endTime":1971.295,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":1971.385,"endTime":1972.736,"body":"15 minutes is all we, we need."},{"startTime":1972.736,"endTime":1972.738,"body":"I know."},{"startTime":1973.125,"endTime":1973.665,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1974.205,"endTime":1974.265,"body":"Wow."},{"startTime":1974.265,"endTime":1975.885,"body":"And there's usually how fruitful is that?"},{"startTime":1975.89,"endTime":1979.605,"body":"Conversation's not, not very"},{"startTime":1975.89,"endTime":1979.605,"body":"it's expeditious because KA says,"},{"startTime":1979.635,"endTime":1980.985,"body":"okay, we'll start the red now."},{"startTime":1981.315,"endTime":1981.945,"body":"What went well?"},{"startTime":1982.595,"endTime":1984.605,"body":"I like the fact that Johnny helped me out."},{"startTime":1984.635,"endTime":1985.175,"body":"Oh, great."},{"startTime":1985.175,"endTime":1985.865,"body":"Well done Johnny."},{"startTime":1985.865,"endTime":1986.375,"body":"Kudos."},{"startTime":1986.435,"endTime":1986.645,"body":"What?"},{"startTime":1986.65,"endTime":1988.355,"body":"Didn't work so well silence."},{"startTime":1988.995,"endTime":1989.415,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1989.505,"endTime":1990.945,"body":"No feedback, no feedback."},{"startTime":1991.065,"endTime":1991.395,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1991.395,"endTime":1992.385,"body":"What can we do better."},{"startTime":1992.445,"endTime":1994.245,"body":"90 points carried over guys."},{"startTime":1994.245,"endTime":1994.785,"body":"Are you sure?"},{"startTime":1994.785,"endTime":1997.125,"body":"Nothing when didn't go well, huh."},{"startTime":1997.365,"endTime":1998.475,"body":"Then they get into the blame game."},{"startTime":1998.955,"endTime":1999.855,"body":"As soon as that happens."},{"startTime":2000.635,"endTime":2000.725,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2000.725,"endTime":2001.805,"body":"The environment was down."},{"startTime":2001.81,"endTime":2005.195,"body":"I mean, someone, someone like"},{"startTime":2001.81,"endTime":2005.195,"body":"someone has to take ownership for it."},{"startTime":2005.245,"endTime":2008.095,"body":"What does the scrum master draw"},{"startTime":2005.245,"endTime":2008.095,"body":"a line in the sand about and"},{"startTime":2008.095,"endTime":2010.705,"body":"say, no, no, no, no, no, no, no."},{"startTime":2010.705,"endTime":2018.525,"body":"You, you can't have hour long, daily scrum"},{"startTime":2010.705,"endTime":2018.525,"body":"meeting like where's the line in the sand."},{"startTime":2018.525,"endTime":2022.185,"body":"Like I like some people be like, oh Brian,"},{"startTime":2018.525,"endTime":2022.185,"body":"you're like, what are you talking about?"},{"startTime":2022.185,"endTime":2024.555,"body":"Like if, if the team"},{"startTime":2022.185,"endTime":2024.555,"body":"needs to have hourlong."},{"startTime":2024.9,"endTime":2025.77,"body":"Daily stand ups."},{"startTime":2025.82,"endTime":2027.08,"body":"Who are you just say?"},{"startTime":2027.13,"endTime":2029.95,"body":"yeah, those people are the same"},{"startTime":2027.13,"endTime":2029.95,"body":"people that say we're gonna have"},{"startTime":2029.95,"endTime":2033.1,"body":"to do things by the scrum guide"},{"startTime":2029.95,"endTime":2033.1,"body":"it's whatever works for the team."},{"startTime":2033.1,"endTime":2037.12,"body":"So, so of course, the minute you do"},{"startTime":2033.1,"endTime":2037.12,"body":"that, you're not following scrum."},{"startTime":2037.36,"endTime":2040.18,"body":"And then when it doesn't work, you"},{"startTime":2037.36,"endTime":2040.18,"body":"go, well, scrum doesn't work for"},{"startTime":2040.18,"endTime":2042.01,"body":"us, but you're not doing scrum."},{"startTime":2042.4,"endTime":2043.24,"body":"That's the problem."},{"startTime":2043.3,"endTime":2047.67,"body":"Like the, the, the, the trade off to that"},{"startTime":2043.3,"endTime":2047.67,"body":"is people who will say, well my daily"},{"startTime":2047.67,"endTime":2053.81,"body":"scrum is 10 minutes of daily scrum, actual"},{"startTime":2047.67,"endTime":2053.81,"body":"da Hey, I'm gonna work on this today."},{"startTime":2053.84,"endTime":2054.62,"body":"Oh, you're working on that."},{"startTime":2054.625,"endTime":2054.8,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2054.8,"endTime":2055.16,"body":"Whatever."},{"startTime":2055.22,"endTime":2059.66,"body":"And then the follow up discussion is"},{"startTime":2055.22,"endTime":2059.66,"body":"all of the stuff that, that, that has"},{"startTime":2059.66,"endTime":2064.52,"body":"slipped between the cracks of like"},{"startTime":2059.66,"endTime":2064.52,"body":"things that we didn't do in refinement,"},{"startTime":2064.55,"endTime":2068.18,"body":"things we didn't do in sprint planning,"},{"startTime":2064.55,"endTime":2068.18,"body":"all like we shortcut our sprint."},{"startTime":2068.26,"endTime":2069.86,"body":"This is, this is a big thing with me."},{"startTime":2070.28,"endTime":2074.06,"body":"If you shortcut your sprint"},{"startTime":2070.28,"endTime":2074.06,"body":"planning and you like, oh my"},{"startTime":2074.065,"endTime":2075.71,"body":"sprint, planning's only 45 minutes."},{"startTime":2076.4,"endTime":2076.97,"body":"Okay, cool."},{"startTime":2076.97,"endTime":2078.08,"body":"45 minutes sprint playing."},{"startTime":2078.23,"endTime":2079.52,"body":"This is what we're"},{"startTime":2078.23,"endTime":2079.52,"body":"gonna work on, whatever."},{"startTime":2080.42,"endTime":2084.44,"body":"And then you and your sprint planning"},{"startTime":2080.42,"endTime":2084.44,"body":"and the first day of your sprint begins"},{"startTime":2084.44,"endTime":2087.98,"body":"and you're like, I don't know how I'm"},{"startTime":2084.44,"endTime":2087.98,"body":"gonna implement any of these things"},{"startTime":2088.68,"endTime":2096.21,"body":"well, that time that you should have"},{"startTime":2088.68,"endTime":2096.21,"body":"spent sprint planning now every day,"},{"startTime":2096.87,"endTime":2101.7,"body":"you're gonna have to spend a fraction of"},{"startTime":2096.87,"endTime":2101.7,"body":"it along when the sprint is happening."},{"startTime":2102.46,"endTime":2104.5,"body":"to plan each item as it comes up."},{"startTime":2105.04,"endTime":2109.07,"body":"So every Monday, what, whatever day"},{"startTime":2105.04,"endTime":2109.07,"body":"you're spring against every Monday, you"},{"startTime":2109.07,"endTime":2115.13,"body":"can spend four hours, six hours, whatever"},{"startTime":2109.07,"endTime":2115.13,"body":"it is, and plan every task in depth or"},{"startTime":2116.99,"endTime":2122.3,"body":"every other day, your dev team can be"},{"startTime":2116.99,"endTime":2122.3,"body":"meeting an hour in the morning, doing"},{"startTime":2122.3,"endTime":2126.29,"body":"a little micro sprint planning, but you"},{"startTime":2122.3,"endTime":2126.29,"body":"don't really realize that's what they're"},{"startTime":2126.29,"endTime":2128.12,"body":"doing as part of their daily scrum."},{"startTime":2128.39,"endTime":2130.76,"body":"This what we're talking"},{"startTime":2128.39,"endTime":2130.76,"body":"about, falls in that category."},{"startTime":2131.36,"endTime":2131.39,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":2131.51,"endTime":2134.15,"body":"You know of the scrum master"},{"startTime":2131.51,"endTime":2134.15,"body":"saying, no, no, no, we're not"},{"startTime":2134.15,"endTime":2135.62,"body":"done with sprint planning."},{"startTime":2136.07,"endTime":2137.54,"body":"You guys haven't, we have all your tasks."},{"startTime":2137.64,"endTime":2139.14,"body":"You haven't done all your subtasks."},{"startTime":2139.24,"endTime":2142.63,"body":"You haven't talked about what,"},{"startTime":2139.24,"endTime":2142.63,"body":"what is touched in each story."},{"startTime":2143.05,"endTime":2145.0,"body":"You haven't specked out"},{"startTime":2143.05,"endTime":2145.0,"body":"how you're gonna build it."},{"startTime":2145.3,"endTime":2147.07,"body":"You don't have an architecture laid out."},{"startTime":2147.28,"endTime":2148.09,"body":"You don't have, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2148.09,"endTime":2149.56,"body":"All, all that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":2150.0,"endTime":2151.83,"body":"You haven't finished this stuff sprint."},{"startTime":2151.83,"endTime":2152.7,"body":"Flying's not over."},{"startTime":2152.97,"endTime":2153.39,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2154.08,"endTime":2156.93,"body":"So the scrum master in that"},{"startTime":2154.08,"endTime":2156.93,"body":"example is reinforcing how to"},{"startTime":2156.935,"endTime":2158.64,"body":"do things properly in scrum."},{"startTime":2158.79,"endTime":2160.02,"body":"Mm-hmm  basically right."},{"startTime":2160.14,"endTime":2162.9,"body":"And if you're not doing that,"},{"startTime":2160.14,"endTime":2162.9,"body":"they say you're not doing scrum."},{"startTime":2162.9,"endTime":2165.54,"body":"So should the scrum master say no?"},{"startTime":2165.54,"endTime":2166.17,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2166.41,"endTime":2166.92,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2167.25,"endTime":2172.11,"body":"I remember hearing one"},{"startTime":2167.25,"endTime":2172.11,"body":"of our managers say this."},{"startTime":2172.11,"endTime":2173.58,"body":"He was an agile coach."},{"startTime":2173.94,"endTime":2174.0,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2174.0,"endTime":2176.85,"body":"So he would say maybe he"},{"startTime":2174.0,"endTime":2176.85,"body":"would be very assertive."},{"startTime":2176.85,"endTime":2181.14,"body":"His personality was to be assertive"},{"startTime":2176.85,"endTime":2181.14,"body":"and then he would stop thinking he's"},{"startTime":2181.14,"endTime":2185.16,"body":"like maybe  he would follow it up"},{"startTime":2181.14,"endTime":2185.16,"body":"with a maybe because he didn't wanna"},{"startTime":2185.16,"endTime":2189.15,"body":"come across too assertive in his"},{"startTime":2185.16,"endTime":2189.15,"body":"role, as, I guess he was playing a, a"},{"startTime":2189.15,"endTime":2191.79,"body":"scrum master more so in that instance."},{"startTime":2192.93,"endTime":2194.13,"body":"And I can understand it, right."},{"startTime":2194.13,"endTime":2198.81,"body":"If you come off too assertive, you"},{"startTime":2194.13,"endTime":2198.81,"body":"can come across like a project manager"},{"startTime":2198.81,"endTime":2201.51,"body":"and you'll lose the respect of your"},{"startTime":2198.81,"endTime":2201.51,"body":"team, cuz that's not what you're there."},{"startTime":2201.51,"endTime":2203.58,"body":"I think it depends on the"},{"startTime":2201.51,"endTime":2203.58,"body":"maturity of your team though."},{"startTime":2203.58,"endTime":2203.85,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2203.85,"endTime":2207.93,"body":"If, if they're not doing the basics"},{"startTime":2203.85,"endTime":2207.93,"body":"right, then it's entirely okay to say"},{"startTime":2207.99,"endTime":2209.55,"body":"this is how we should be doing things."},{"startTime":2209.55,"endTime":2212.91,"body":"I mean, that's you basically"},{"startTime":2209.55,"endTime":2212.91,"body":"coaching the team sure."},{"startTime":2212.915,"endTime":2214.38,"body":"When it comes to process, right?"},{"startTime":2214.385,"endTime":2214.62,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2214.62,"endTime":2214.621,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2214.65,"endTime":2218.25,"body":"So anything outside of the"},{"startTime":2214.65,"endTime":2218.25,"body":"process, maybe out a, maybe  sure"},{"startTime":2218.46,"endTime":2219.42,"body":"if you're really not sure."},{"startTime":2219.94,"endTime":2222.58,"body":"maybe, maybe,"},{"startTime":2223.54,"endTime":2228.185,"body":"I don't know, like this, this this walks"},{"startTime":2223.54,"endTime":2228.185,"body":"a real weird line with me because again."},{"startTime":2228.19,"endTime":2231.095,"body":"This goes back to like the early"},{"startTime":2228.19,"endTime":2231.095,"body":"podcast about meet them where they are."},{"startTime":2231.185,"endTime":2234.245,"body":"what if they're in a place where"},{"startTime":2231.185,"endTime":2234.245,"body":"they're doing 15 minute retrospectives"},{"startTime":2234.395,"endTime":2236.435,"body":"and a 20 minute sprint plannings?"},{"startTime":2236.515,"endTime":2240.505,"body":"You know that they're not doing"},{"startTime":2236.515,"endTime":2240.505,"body":"inappropriate amount of planning."},{"startTime":2240.715,"endTime":2240.805,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2240.805,"endTime":2243.565,"body":"You know, at the end of the"},{"startTime":2240.805,"endTime":2243.565,"body":"planning event, they're not"},{"startTime":2243.565,"endTime":2244.735,"body":"getting out of the planning event."},{"startTime":2244.735,"endTime":2248.635,"body":"Well, what they should and when the"},{"startTime":2244.735,"endTime":2248.635,"body":"conversation is organizationally, when the"},{"startTime":2248.64,"endTime":2253.255,"body":"conversation is turn, turn towards, oh,"},{"startTime":2248.64,"endTime":2253.255,"body":"I don't really think scrum works for us."},{"startTime":2253.285,"endTime":2253.345,"body":"Mmm."},{"startTime":2254.215,"endTime":2256.945,"body":"Like now you're in the"},{"startTime":2254.215,"endTime":2256.945,"body":"now you're targeted."},{"startTime":2257.135,"endTime":2258.605,"body":"You've made yourself a target."},{"startTime":2258.66,"endTime":2261.93,"body":"I've now taken the subject of"},{"startTime":2258.66,"endTime":2261.93,"body":"conflict resolution and turned"},{"startTime":2261.96,"endTime":2263.88,"body":"it around for this conversation."},{"startTime":2263.88,"endTime":2267.09,"body":"Because now  I'm gonna create"},{"startTime":2263.88,"endTime":2267.09,"body":"conflict to say, listen, like"},{"startTime":2267.6,"endTime":2268.95,"body":"these are the things that I own."},{"startTime":2268.95,"endTime":2272.64,"body":"Like, again, going back to my old"},{"startTime":2268.95,"endTime":2272.64,"body":"time thing of like, you're not a scrum"},{"startTime":2272.64,"endTime":2274.32,"body":"master, you're the process owner."},{"startTime":2274.83,"endTime":2278.02,"body":"And if you are the process owner,"},{"startTime":2274.83,"endTime":2278.02,"body":"you have to say we didn't figure out"},{"startTime":2278.02,"endTime":2283.45,"body":"these things that we were supposed to"},{"startTime":2278.02,"endTime":2283.45,"body":"figure out in this event, the sprint"},{"startTime":2283.45,"endTime":2288.43,"body":"playing event, backhoe, refinement,"},{"startTime":2283.45,"endTime":2288.43,"body":"whatever, mm-hmm,  retrospective,"},{"startTime":2288.502,"endTime":2289.942,"body":"we didn't figure these things out."},{"startTime":2290.182,"endTime":2291.382,"body":"Cuz we didn't spend enough time."},{"startTime":2291.892,"endTime":2292.192,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2292.492,"endTime":2296.752,"body":"I I'm taking offline that, the"},{"startTime":2292.492,"endTime":2296.752,"body":"idea of the moderation, right?"},{"startTime":2296.752,"endTime":2299.747,"body":"Like you've moderated the topic"},{"startTime":2296.752,"endTime":2299.747,"body":"appropriately and stuff like that."},{"startTime":2299.747,"endTime":2303.287,"body":"If, if you don't have enough"},{"startTime":2299.747,"endTime":2303.287,"body":"time forget moderation."},{"startTime":2303.467,"endTime":2303.647,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2303.647,"endTime":2307.727,"body":"If you don't have enough time,"},{"startTime":2303.647,"endTime":2307.727,"body":"the bare bones framework of time,"},{"startTime":2308.897,"endTime":2312.507,"body":"there's not a lot you can do as a"},{"startTime":2308.897,"endTime":2312.507,"body":"facilitator inside of that time box."},{"startTime":2313.257,"endTime":2314.577,"body":"Right here on arguing agile."},{"startTime":2314.577,"endTime":2315.267,"body":"I'm gonna argue this."},{"startTime":2315.447,"endTime":2315.837,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":2315.837,"endTime":2317.967,"body":"So say you're plopped into a team."},{"startTime":2318.177,"endTime":2319.587,"body":"They're doing this process."},{"startTime":2319.617,"endTime":2321.417,"body":"You're against meeting"},{"startTime":2319.617,"endTime":2321.417,"body":"them where they are."},{"startTime":2321.567,"endTime":2325.857,"body":"So would you say like, Hey, I'm changing"},{"startTime":2321.567,"endTime":2325.857,"body":"these meetings, would you even tell"},{"startTime":2325.857,"endTime":2326.907,"body":"them, or would you just change it?"},{"startTime":2327.597,"endTime":2330.687,"body":"Just change all the meetings to the"},{"startTime":2327.597,"endTime":2330.687,"body":"way that you know, would be most"},{"startTime":2330.687,"endTime":2332.547,"body":"effective and they'll just deal with it."},{"startTime":2332.547,"endTime":2333.627,"body":"Is that your approach?"},{"startTime":2334.527,"endTime":2335.847,"body":"Isn't that disruptive?"},{"startTime":2336.027,"endTime":2337.502,"body":"I might make some enemies."},{"startTime":2337.952,"endTime":2338.822,"body":"You're new here."},{"startTime":2339.172,"endTime":2344.582,"body":"I, I don't like being yelled at"},{"startTime":2339.172,"endTime":2344.582,"body":"Jessica   but I do this currently"},{"startTime":2344.642,"endTime":2351.552,"body":"because my sprint review is slightly"},{"startTime":2344.642,"endTime":2351.552,"body":"truncated to lessen what I would like."},{"startTime":2351.822,"endTime":2353.772,"body":"I know you, you liked the word truncated."},{"startTime":2353.772,"endTime":2354.102,"body":"I, you do."},{"startTime":2354.102,"endTime":2355.722,"body":"I T that one in there for you."},{"startTime":2356.112,"endTime":2359.112,"body":"Did I say that last time I, you"},{"startTime":2356.112,"endTime":2359.112,"body":"did it in a previous podcast."},{"startTime":2359.112,"endTime":2361.212,"body":"You were like, I love the word truncated."},{"startTime":2361.212,"endTime":2361.582,"body":"I do."},{"startTime":2362.202,"endTime":2363.302,"body":"Oh, such a, such a good word."},{"startTime":2363.302,"endTime":2364.302,"body":"It's such a developer word."},{"startTime":2364.302,"endTime":2366.102,"body":"I know  yeah."},{"startTime":2366.102,"endTime":2366.852,"body":"I wanna go back to this one."},{"startTime":2366.852,"endTime":2367.117,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2367.207,"endTime":2368.847,"body":"Uh, that we just touched on, right."},{"startTime":2368.847,"endTime":2372.837,"body":"Mm-hmm  would you just change the meetings"},{"startTime":2368.847,"endTime":2372.837,"body":"or would you tell your teams, right?"},{"startTime":2372.837,"endTime":2373.767,"body":"That was your question."},{"startTime":2373.772,"endTime":2378.897,"body":"Mm-hmm  mm-hmm  so my approach would be"},{"startTime":2373.772,"endTime":2378.897,"body":"to say to the team for this particular"},{"startTime":2378.897,"endTime":2384.687,"body":"meeting, the recommendation is this"},{"startTime":2378.897,"endTime":2384.687,"body":"many hours or whatever it is, right."},{"startTime":2384.687,"endTime":2386.417,"body":"So let's say, let's say spring planning."},{"startTime":2386.417,"endTime":2390.257,"body":"So for a two week sprint, you should"},{"startTime":2386.417,"endTime":2390.257,"body":"be spending of the order four hours."},{"startTime":2390.257,"endTime":2393.437,"body":"You could get done early, but you have"},{"startTime":2390.257,"endTime":2393.437,"body":"to come out of it with these things."},{"startTime":2393.497,"endTime":2393.617,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2393.977,"endTime":2396.617,"body":"And therefore we're gonna"},{"startTime":2393.977,"endTime":2396.617,"body":"meet for four hours."},{"startTime":2396.647,"endTime":2396.827,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2397.217,"endTime":2399.677,"body":"And, and change it,"},{"startTime":2397.217,"endTime":2399.677,"body":"but I've told them why."},{"startTime":2400.037,"endTime":2400.337,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2400.337,"endTime":2402.107,"body":"So when they come in, they know why's why."},{"startTime":2402.167,"endTime":2402.457,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2402.462,"endTime":2402.617,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2402.617,"endTime":2403.847,"body":"And I put it in the agenda too."},{"startTime":2404.027,"endTime":2407.747,"body":"It's important for people to understand"},{"startTime":2404.027,"endTime":2407.747,"body":"the why is I was just having this"},{"startTime":2407.747,"endTime":2410.007,"body":"conversation with my my current boss."},{"startTime":2410.397,"endTime":2412.047,"body":"And he's like, I know you, Jessica."},{"startTime":2412.137,"endTime":2413.787,"body":"I know you always challenge me."},{"startTime":2413.817,"endTime":2416.247,"body":"He's like, and I appreciate it cuz"},{"startTime":2413.817,"endTime":2416.247,"body":"you know, you need to understand"},{"startTime":2416.252,"endTime":2419.817,"body":"the why behind what we're doing"},{"startTime":2416.252,"endTime":2419.817,"body":"for you to be on board with it."},{"startTime":2420.237,"endTime":2420.627,"body":"Awesome."},{"startTime":2420.687,"endTime":2422.877,"body":"Like I think teams are"},{"startTime":2420.687,"endTime":2422.877,"body":"the same way they are."},{"startTime":2422.882,"endTime":2423.057,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2423.057,"endTime":2425.937,"body":"I think you're gonna get their"},{"startTime":2423.057,"endTime":2425.937,"body":"buy in so much more effectively"},{"startTime":2425.937,"endTime":2427.437,"body":"or easily even mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":2427.437,"endTime":2430.707,"body":"If they understood the way mm-hmm  and"},{"startTime":2427.437,"endTime":2430.707,"body":"you tell 'em, these are the outcomes that"},{"startTime":2430.707,"endTime":2432.267,"body":"we are looking for from this meeting."},{"startTime":2432.747,"endTime":2435.777,"body":"if we can do those in less than four"},{"startTime":2432.747,"endTime":2435.777,"body":"hours, we don't have to stay on the call."},{"startTime":2435.927,"endTime":2436.077,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2436.287,"endTime":2437.187,"body":"But we have to meet them."},{"startTime":2437.967,"endTime":2439.857,"body":"if you can do it less then."},{"startTime":2439.862,"endTime":2440.307,"body":"Great."},{"startTime":2440.527,"endTime":2443.462,"body":"but the team should be booked"},{"startTime":2440.527,"endTime":2443.462,"body":"off for that amount of time."},{"startTime":2443.462,"endTime":2443.702,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":2443.702,"endTime":2447.112,"body":"Cause kinda like a mechanic  it"},{"startTime":2443.702,"endTime":2447.112,"body":"takes four hours to do the servicing."},{"startTime":2447.292,"endTime":2449.062,"body":"I'm gonna book four hours for it."},{"startTime":2449.332,"endTime":2452.182,"body":"If you can get done earlier than that"},{"startTime":2449.332,"endTime":2452.182,"body":"and then move on to other things."},{"startTime":2452.452,"endTime":2453.082,"body":"Great."},{"startTime":2453.322,"endTime":2457.662,"body":"But we should reserve that"},{"startTime":2453.322,"endTime":2457.662,"body":"time on their calendar."},{"startTime":2457.912,"endTime":2458.032,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":2458.692,"endTime":2459.322,"body":"Mm-hmm  yeah."},{"startTime":2459.342,"endTime":2460.182,"body":"Mm-hmm  agree."},{"startTime":2460.912,"endTime":2461.182,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2462.052,"endTime":2463.282,"body":"You wanna go back into conflict?"},{"startTime":2464.042,"endTime":2468.092,"body":"We were talking about, can the scrum"},{"startTime":2464.042,"endTime":2468.092,"body":"master say no scrum master agile coach?"},{"startTime":2468.122,"endTime":2471.692,"body":", basically the person in"},{"startTime":2468.122,"endTime":2471.692,"body":"charge of the process."},{"startTime":2472.282,"endTime":2473.272,"body":", can they say no?"},{"startTime":2473.272,"endTime":2476.507,"body":"I mean, you always consider the"},{"startTime":2473.272,"endTime":2476.507,"body":"project manager, a project manager"},{"startTime":2476.507,"endTime":2478.577,"body":"to be more authoritative, right?"},{"startTime":2478.577,"endTime":2480.587,"body":"So the scrum master takes"},{"startTime":2478.577,"endTime":2480.587,"body":"a different approach."},{"startTime":2481.727,"endTime":2484.997,"body":"They're more influential, right?"},{"startTime":2485.027,"endTime":2488.897,"body":"Maybe it's to your point that they have"},{"startTime":2485.027,"endTime":2488.897,"body":"to explain the why behind something."},{"startTime":2489.677,"endTime":2490.097,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2490.097,"endTime":2491.147,"body":"I, I agree with that."},{"startTime":2491.147,"endTime":2495.437,"body":"I think they do have to explain the why"},{"startTime":2491.147,"endTime":2495.437,"body":"mm-hmm  but I still think that there are"},{"startTime":2495.437,"endTime":2502.097,"body":"situations when they need to be assertive,"},{"startTime":2495.437,"endTime":2502.097,"body":"say no, when no is warranted mm-hmm  cause"},{"startTime":2502.097,"endTime":2504.017,"body":"they are the process expert, right?"},{"startTime":2504.227,"endTime":2508.287,"body":"The teams are not necessarily, so"},{"startTime":2504.227,"endTime":2508.287,"body":"they may be opinionated of course."},{"startTime":2508.347,"endTime":2509.157,"body":"And that's okay."},{"startTime":2509.277,"endTime":2512.917,"body":"This is where the scrum master skills"},{"startTime":2509.277,"endTime":2512.917,"body":"come in, where you listen to somebody,"},{"startTime":2513.657,"endTime":2517.587,"body":"you offer a contrarian view, you listen"},{"startTime":2513.657,"endTime":2517.587,"body":"to somebody else, hopefully someone"},{"startTime":2517.707,"endTime":2519.807,"body":"sides with your views in the team."},{"startTime":2520.287,"endTime":2524.217,"body":"And you kinda listen and"},{"startTime":2520.287,"endTime":2524.217,"body":"juxtapose one against the."},{"startTime":2524.952,"endTime":2528.732,"body":"But steer the conversation towards"},{"startTime":2524.952,"endTime":2528.732,"body":"the decision you've already made."},{"startTime":2529.422,"endTime":2533.712,"body":"And you've explained that by"},{"startTime":2529.422,"endTime":2533.712,"body":"explaining the why, and last but"},{"startTime":2533.712,"endTime":2537.622,"body":"not least I like this part you could"},{"startTime":2533.712,"endTime":2537.622,"body":"say, well, how about we do this?"},{"startTime":2537.627,"endTime":2540.292,"body":"Let's just try this for a"},{"startTime":2537.627,"endTime":2540.292,"body":"sprint mm-hmm  so experiment."},{"startTime":2540.712,"endTime":2541.042,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2541.047,"endTime":2541.972,"body":"And see how it goes."},{"startTime":2542.182,"endTime":2544.312,"body":"Mm-hmm  yeah."},{"startTime":2544.402,"endTime":2547.372,"body":"There's always that Brian,"},{"startTime":2544.402,"endTime":2547.372,"body":"you're making a face."},{"startTime":2547.372,"endTime":2548.182,"body":"What are your thoughts?"},{"startTime":2548.272,"endTime":2549.352,"body":"I am making a face"},{"startTime":2550.342,"endTime":2554.662,"body":"."},{"startTime":2550.342,"endTime":2554.662,"body":"I tend to think if a team is lucky enough"},{"startTime":2554.662,"endTime":2556.432,"body":"have some kind of shared agile coach,"},{"startTime":2556.682,"endTime":2556.742,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":2558.842,"endTime":2562.892,"body":"If you're lucky enough to have a scrum"},{"startTime":2558.842,"endTime":2562.892,"body":"master, like they should know the rules."},{"startTime":2563.127,"endTime":2566.187,"body":"I know when, like it's not a super"},{"startTime":2563.127,"endTime":2566.187,"body":"popular way to say, like they should"},{"startTime":2566.187,"endTime":2569.397,"body":"know the rules, like there's, these"},{"startTime":2566.187,"endTime":2569.397,"body":"are the rules, thems the rules, thems"},{"startTime":2569.397,"endTime":2570.837,"body":"the bricks, like follow 'em or not."},{"startTime":2571.147,"endTime":2573.902,"body":"they should have the expertise"},{"startTime":2571.147,"endTime":2573.902,"body":"to say this is the way the scrum"},{"startTime":2573.902,"endTime":2575.012,"body":"events should be performed."},{"startTime":2575.222,"endTime":2579.532,"body":"These are the proper time boxes like"},{"startTime":2575.222,"endTime":2579.532,"body":"for example at the sprint review you"},{"startTime":2579.532,"endTime":2580.972,"body":"should be getting customer feedback."},{"startTime":2581.152,"endTime":2584.362,"body":"Like if there's no customers at your"},{"startTime":2581.152,"endTime":2584.362,"body":"sprint review, that's a problem."},{"startTime":2584.452,"endTime":2585.232,"body":"That's a big problem."},{"startTime":2585.802,"endTime":2588.022,"body":"All is a scrum master need to"},{"startTime":2585.802,"endTime":2588.022,"body":"point out that's a problem."},{"startTime":2588.712,"endTime":2588.952,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2589.192,"endTime":2594.252,"body":"If you're pointing out these things and"},{"startTime":2589.192,"endTime":2594.252,"body":"you're getting pushback, nobody cares."},{"startTime":2594.592,"endTime":2596.842,"body":"I can think of a bunch of"},{"startTime":2594.592,"endTime":2596.842,"body":"bad ways to present it."},{"startTime":2596.872,"endTime":2598.342,"body":"I'm not trying to present it in a bad way."},{"startTime":2598.552,"endTime":2605.572,"body":"I'm just trying to say if the organization"},{"startTime":2598.552,"endTime":2605.572,"body":"is, is inclined to not take what you're"},{"startTime":2605.572,"endTime":2609.952,"body":"saying into consideration, on the last"},{"startTime":2605.572,"endTime":2609.952,"body":"podcast before you got here, Jessica,"},{"startTime":2609.952,"endTime":2614.932,"body":"we were like what if,  you bring up"},{"startTime":2609.952,"endTime":2614.932,"body":"like a, a good question is we wanna,"},{"startTime":2615.432,"endTime":2622.212,"body":"we want to invest in feature a and"},{"startTime":2615.432,"endTime":2622.212,"body":"someone's like, well, who is the user."},{"startTime":2623.637,"endTime":2626.607,"body":"Hmm for feature a, because"},{"startTime":2623.637,"endTime":2626.607,"body":"we want to get feedback."},{"startTime":2626.607,"endTime":2629.907,"body":"If we build this and then somebody"},{"startTime":2626.607,"endTime":2629.907,"body":"who's sponsoring their features, like"},{"startTime":2629.937,"endTime":2632.157,"body":"I don't care what feedback we get."},{"startTime":2632.307,"endTime":2632.487,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2632.667,"endTime":2633.567,"body":"We need to ask the customer."},{"startTime":2633.572,"endTime":2636.677,"body":"We don't need to ask customer  I don't"},{"startTime":2633.572,"endTime":2636.677,"body":"care about their opinion oh, wow."},{"startTime":2637.127,"endTime":2637.397,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2637.397,"endTime":2640.517,"body":"Who's the person to be"},{"startTime":2637.397,"endTime":2640.517,"body":"like, wait a minute."},{"startTime":2641.897,"endTime":2645.137,"body":"yeah, you would hope the product"},{"startTime":2641.897,"endTime":2645.137,"body":"person would be like, wait a minute."},{"startTime":2645.377,"endTime":2649.037,"body":"But I mean, yeah, I've been a lot"},{"startTime":2645.377,"endTime":2649.037,"body":"of organizations with the product"},{"startTime":2649.042,"endTime":2651.167,"body":"person is not one to rock the boat."},{"startTime":2651.267,"endTime":2657.327,"body":"They're putting you the scrum master"},{"startTime":2651.267,"endTime":2657.327,"body":"as a coach, whatever, in a very weird"},{"startTime":2657.327,"endTime":2661.677,"body":"position at that point to be like,"},{"startTime":2657.327,"endTime":2661.677,"body":"wait a minute, if you don't care about"},{"startTime":2661.677,"endTime":2666.687,"body":"the customer experience, like who does"},{"startTime":2661.677,"endTime":2666.687,"body":"care about the customer experience?"},{"startTime":2667.107,"endTime":2667.437,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2667.437,"endTime":2672.147,"body":"It's it, that's a, that's a"},{"startTime":2667.437,"endTime":2672.147,"body":"strange position to be put into."},{"startTime":2672.507,"endTime":2677.62,"body":"And like, I only bring it up because"},{"startTime":2672.507,"endTime":2677.62,"body":"it's sort of in the banner of conflict"},{"startTime":2677.62,"endTime":2681.73,"body":"resolution, because somebody in the"},{"startTime":2677.62,"endTime":2681.73,"body":"organization is pushing, they're"},{"startTime":2681.73,"endTime":2686.93,"body":"pushing real hard are they aligned"},{"startTime":2681.73,"endTime":2686.93,"body":"with the best interests of the"},{"startTime":2686.93,"endTime":2690.5,"body":"customer , they're probably aligned"},{"startTime":2686.93,"endTime":2690.5,"body":"in the best interests of themselves."},{"startTime":2690.83,"endTime":2691.01,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2691.26,"endTime":2694.63,"body":"I would like to think you figured that"},{"startTime":2691.26,"endTime":2694.63,"body":"out by asking a bunch of questions."},{"startTime":2694.63,"endTime":2694.69,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2694.84,"endTime":2701.72,"body":"You know, Hey, what makes you think"},{"startTime":2694.84,"endTime":2701.72,"body":"that your idea is the best way to go?"},{"startTime":2701.9,"endTime":2708.02,"body":"what are we going to do to, to"},{"startTime":2701.9,"endTime":2708.02,"body":"prove once we implement your idea"},{"startTime":2708.89,"endTime":2710.51,"body":"that that was the best solution."},{"startTime":2710.78,"endTime":2710.99,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2710.99,"endTime":2711.17,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2711.62,"endTime":2715.37,"body":"And, the reason I have this weird"},{"startTime":2711.62,"endTime":2715.37,"body":"expression on my face, Jessica."},{"startTime":2715.52,"endTime":2715.82,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2715.82,"endTime":2721.61,"body":"The reason I have this weird expression"},{"startTime":2715.82,"endTime":2721.61,"body":"is because there are organizations where"},{"startTime":2721.66,"endTime":2728.125,"body":"that is just seen as I don't know stir"},{"startTime":2721.66,"endTime":2728.125,"body":"up trouble I'm just looking to cause"},{"startTime":2728.125,"endTime":2731.545,"body":"fights at that point, I'm going back"},{"startTime":2728.125,"endTime":2731.545,"body":"to the topic of conflict resolution."},{"startTime":2731.595,"endTime":2733.245,"body":"I'm the product person."},{"startTime":2734.295,"endTime":2737.475,"body":"And you're a random VP, random VP."},{"startTime":2737.535,"endTime":2739.335,"body":"Every VP is a product person."},{"startTime":2741.165,"endTime":2741.167,"body":"that's right."},{"startTime":2741.172,"endTime":2745.95,"body":"So that's my, that's my throwing"},{"startTime":2741.172,"endTime":2745.95,"body":"the gauntlet down challenge in this"},{"startTime":2745.95,"endTime":2751.44,"body":"podcast, every VP in the organization"},{"startTime":2745.95,"endTime":2751.44,"body":"thinks they're a product person."},{"startTime":2752.1,"endTime":2754.62,"body":"They think that all their"},{"startTime":2752.1,"endTime":2754.62,"body":"ideas are the greatest customer"},{"startTime":2754.92,"endTime":2757.08,"body":"challenges and solutions."},{"startTime":2758.925,"endTime":2761.805,"body":"But not until you start implementing"},{"startTime":2758.925,"endTime":2761.805,"body":"them and testing them, do you find"},{"startTime":2761.805,"endTime":2763.495,"body":"out, what's true and what's not right."},{"startTime":2763.915,"endTime":2766.965,"body":"So it, it, it serves your organization"},{"startTime":2763.915,"endTime":2766.965,"body":"to come up with some kind of"},{"startTime":2766.965,"endTime":2771.795,"body":"methodology where you can test ideas"},{"startTime":2766.965,"endTime":2771.795,"body":"before you fully implement them."},{"startTime":2771.975,"endTime":2772.755,"body":"Whatever that means."},{"startTime":2772.755,"endTime":2776.475,"body":"It could be real heavyweight depending"},{"startTime":2772.755,"endTime":2776.475,"body":"on the way your organization's set up."},{"startTime":2776.655,"endTime":2778.755,"body":"We're gonna do another"},{"startTime":2776.655,"endTime":2778.755,"body":"podcast on that subject."},{"startTime":2779.055,"endTime":2780.375,"body":"We've already planned one now."},{"startTime":2780.825,"endTime":2782.055,"body":"Good testing ideas."},{"startTime":2782.295,"endTime":2782.685,"body":"Nice."},{"startTime":2783.765,"endTime":2791.385,"body":"But you can get in  some real vicious"},{"startTime":2783.765,"endTime":2791.385,"body":"knife fights about like, Hey, I think we"},{"startTime":2791.505,"endTime":2794.505,"body":"should do this for these customers Uhhuh."},{"startTime":2794.505,"endTime":2798.585,"body":"And then as a product person, you"},{"startTime":2794.505,"endTime":2798.585,"body":"can say, what leads you to believe?"},{"startTime":2800.445,"endTime":2802.665,"body":"You know, mm-hmm  why"},{"startTime":2800.445,"endTime":2802.665,"body":"are you questioning me?"},{"startTime":2802.965,"endTime":2803.055,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":2803.445,"endTime":2804.555,"body":"Just do what I say."},{"startTime":2805.605,"endTime":2807.045,"body":"Well, they pull rank at that point."},{"startTime":2807.045,"endTime":2807.345,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2807.345,"endTime":2807.765,"body":"They do."},{"startTime":2807.825,"endTime":2808.155,"body":"You know?"},{"startTime":2808.785,"endTime":2810.015,"body":"But that happens like, yeah."},{"startTime":2810.255,"endTime":2814.575,"body":"Like the only reason I bring that up"},{"startTime":2810.255,"endTime":2814.575,"body":"is like, if there's anyone out there,"},{"startTime":2814.935,"endTime":2822.365,"body":"that's thinking I as a Scrumer am caught"},{"startTime":2814.935,"endTime":2822.365,"body":"in the middle of like the product people"},{"startTime":2822.845,"endTime":2827.435,"body":"and the people that are bringing the"},{"startTime":2822.845,"endTime":2827.435,"body":"ideas and the team, or maybe the product"},{"startTime":2827.435,"endTime":2830.345,"body":"in the team, maybe you're stuck in"},{"startTime":2827.435,"endTime":2830.345,"body":"the middle of the product in the team."},{"startTime":2830.585,"endTime":2830.945,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2831.785,"endTime":2835.475,"body":"Do I have to always be the bigger"},{"startTime":2831.785,"endTime":2835.475,"body":"person to be like, Hey, why don't we"},{"startTime":2835.475,"endTime":2838.205,"body":"think about how do we prove this idea?"},{"startTime":2838.715,"endTime":2841.145,"body":"Or, Hey, why don't I try"},{"startTime":2838.715,"endTime":2841.145,"body":"to disarm this combo?"},{"startTime":2841.145,"endTime":2844.535,"body":"Like the, this development manager"},{"startTime":2841.145,"endTime":2844.535,"body":"is like, oh, just implement this"},{"startTime":2844.625,"endTime":2849.095,"body":"cuz I say so like, oh, do I have"},{"startTime":2844.625,"endTime":2849.095,"body":"to be the one all the time to say,"},{"startTime":2850.235,"endTime":2851.975,"body":"why do you think that's important?"},{"startTime":2852.665,"endTime":2857.075,"body":"What evidence leads you to believe"},{"startTime":2852.665,"endTime":2857.075,"body":"that we need to implement this as a top"},{"startTime":2857.075,"endTime":2859.145,"body":"priority, as opposed to, or this stuff?"},{"startTime":2859.415,"endTime":2862.805,"body":"Especially if you're in an organization"},{"startTime":2859.415,"endTime":2862.805,"body":"where a product person doesn't want"},{"startTime":2862.81,"endTime":2869.225,"body":"to put themselves in front of the"},{"startTime":2862.81,"endTime":2869.225,"body":"team to deflect that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":2869.885,"endTime":2874.195,"body":"And the scrum master is putting"},{"startTime":2869.885,"endTime":2874.195,"body":"themselves in a position where they're"},{"startTime":2874.195,"endTime":2879.885,"body":"like let me be the neutral party kind"},{"startTime":2874.195,"endTime":2879.885,"body":"of disarming both sides and bringing"},{"startTime":2879.885,"endTime":2881.835,"body":"us to some kind of resolution."},{"startTime":2883.905,"endTime":2886.725,"body":"Because again, going back to super"},{"startTime":2883.905,"endTime":2886.725,"body":"early where we were talking about this"},{"startTime":2886.725,"endTime":2892.335,"body":"subject is like, they're the best person"},{"startTime":2886.725,"endTime":2892.335,"body":"with those skills on the team, right?"},{"startTime":2892.515,"endTime":2894.585,"body":"Do they always have to be in that role?"},{"startTime":2894.64,"endTime":2898.0,"body":"I think if your team is not mature"},{"startTime":2894.64,"endTime":2898.0,"body":"where people are raising their."},{"startTime":2898.825,"endTime":2903.435,"body":"To be that person who comes"},{"startTime":2898.825,"endTime":2903.435,"body":"out and his arms and whatnot."},{"startTime":2903.585,"endTime":2904.005,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2904.215,"endTime":2906.225,"body":"For whatever reason, maybe"},{"startTime":2904.215,"endTime":2906.225,"body":"they have the skills."},{"startTime":2906.285,"endTime":2908.355,"body":"Maybe just don't feel like"},{"startTime":2906.285,"endTime":2908.355,"body":"it's their place or they're"},{"startTime":2908.36,"endTime":2909.705,"body":"nervous or whatever it is."},{"startTime":2909.705,"endTime":2909.945,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2909.975,"endTime":2910.035,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2910.425,"endTime":2912.975,"body":"Then the scrum master should"},{"startTime":2910.425,"endTime":2912.975,"body":"be leading by example."},{"startTime":2913.515,"endTime":2917.205,"body":"But then after this is over,"},{"startTime":2913.515,"endTime":2917.205,"body":"the scrum master could say"},{"startTime":2917.205,"endTime":2919.035,"body":"any one of you can do this."},{"startTime":2919.085,"endTime":2919.685,"body":"Feel free."},{"startTime":2919.685,"endTime":2923.795,"body":"Be, feel empowered to say something"},{"startTime":2919.685,"endTime":2923.795,"body":"when you see something not being done."},{"startTime":2923.8,"endTime":2924.125,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2924.155,"endTime":2924.365,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2924.425,"endTime":2927.725,"body":"You know, so, but yeah, the scrum"},{"startTime":2924.425,"endTime":2927.725,"body":"master cannot just take a backseat in"},{"startTime":2927.725,"endTime":2929.375,"body":"those situations cuz you get steam."},{"startTime":2929.38,"endTime":2930.215,"body":"Olded sure."},{"startTime":2930.22,"endTime":2931.055,"body":"Of course."},{"startTime":2931.875,"endTime":2934.455,"body":"I don't know how deep to,"},{"startTime":2931.875,"endTime":2934.455,"body":"to, to drill into this topic."},{"startTime":2934.465,"endTime":2938.695,"body":"Let's say you're in a backlog refinement,"},{"startTime":2934.465,"endTime":2938.695,"body":"for example, and you have a, some,"},{"startTime":2938.725,"endTime":2943.105,"body":"some kind of person that's in like"},{"startTime":2938.725,"endTime":2943.105,"body":"a, a lead level or supervisory level"},{"startTime":2943.11,"endTime":2947.005,"body":"to the team is like a, like a, what"},{"startTime":2943.11,"endTime":2947.005,"body":"we talking about for like a solution"},{"startTime":2947.005,"endTime":2948.415,"body":"architect or somebody like that."},{"startTime":2948.415,"endTime":2948.715,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2949.135,"endTime":2950.605,"body":"They say, oh no, you have to do this."},{"startTime":2950.605,"endTime":2952.045,"body":"And they they're really drilling down."},{"startTime":2952.05,"endTime":2956.815,"body":"It would be the Scrumer to, to"},{"startTime":2952.05,"endTime":2956.815,"body":"again, assuming your team members"},{"startTime":2957.025,"endTime":2962.825,"body":"and, or your product person is not"},{"startTime":2957.025,"endTime":2962.825,"body":"interceding saying, Hey, how can"},{"startTime":2962.825,"endTime":2965.645,"body":"we, how can we break this down?"},{"startTime":2966.015,"endTime":2967.995,"body":", and  come to some kind of consensus."},{"startTime":2970.17,"endTime":2973.95,"body":"Like putting this all in the scrum I"},{"startTime":2970.17,"endTime":2973.95,"body":"don't know, like I'm kind of changing"},{"startTime":2973.95,"endTime":2978.17,"body":"my opinion as we're going on with this"},{"startTime":2973.95,"endTime":2978.17,"body":"podcast of like, it's kind of unfair to"},{"startTime":2978.17,"endTime":2985.1,"body":"ask the scrum master to intercede on the"},{"startTime":2978.17,"endTime":2985.1,"body":"team's behalf and, and say, Hey, you're,"},{"startTime":2985.13,"endTime":2987.59,"body":"you're pushing real hard on this topic."},{"startTime":2988.04,"endTime":2989.72,"body":"Why don't we hear some other opinions"},{"startTime":2990.39,"endTime":2990.57,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":2990.6,"endTime":2995.16,"body":"But if a scrum master doesn't do it and no"},{"startTime":2990.6,"endTime":2995.16,"body":"one else has said anything, then you know,"},{"startTime":2995.16,"endTime":2997.02,"body":"the aggressor is gonna get their way."},{"startTime":2997.02,"endTime":2997.65,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2997.655,"endTime":2997.7,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2997.705,"endTime":3001.52,"body":"So then in that case, a scrum"},{"startTime":2997.705,"endTime":3001.52,"body":"master should speak up and"},{"startTime":3001.52,"endTime":3004.16,"body":"lead by example, I think, yeah."},{"startTime":3004.16,"endTime":3007.21,"body":"That's a tough spot to put someone"},{"startTime":3004.16,"endTime":3007.21,"body":"in, especially like we keep going"},{"startTime":3007.21,"endTime":3009.88,"body":"back to all the times like, oh, the"},{"startTime":3007.21,"endTime":3009.88,"body":"scrum master, should they be technical"},{"startTime":3009.88,"endTime":3014.69,"body":"or not like if you're talking about"},{"startTime":3009.88,"endTime":3014.69,"body":"a super deep technical issue being"},{"startTime":3014.69,"endTime":3017.425,"body":"discussed between like the architect"},{"startTime":3014.69,"endTime":3017.425,"body":"and the team oh, you guys should"},{"startTime":3017.425,"endTime":3018.685,"body":"be able to do this in one sprint."},{"startTime":3018.805,"endTime":3019.345,"body":"I don't understand."},{"startTime":3019.345,"endTime":3021.905,"body":"What's so hard about it or whatever"},{"startTime":3019.345,"endTime":3021.905,"body":"the scrum master' gonna insert"},{"startTime":3021.905,"endTime":3023.255,"body":"themselves in that conversation."},{"startTime":3023.255,"endTime":3027.875,"body":"That's a, that's a, that's a tough"},{"startTime":3023.255,"endTime":3027.875,"body":"conversation to crowbar yourself into"},{"startTime":3027.875,"endTime":3031.445,"body":"the middle of, but it's an important"},{"startTime":3027.875,"endTime":3031.445,"body":"conversation to do that in because"},{"startTime":3031.45,"endTime":3035.315,"body":"otherwise the team feels pressured now to"},{"startTime":3031.45,"endTime":3035.315,"body":"deliver that in one sprint or two sprints."},{"startTime":3035.345,"endTime":3035.555,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3035.585,"endTime":3035.885,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3036.215,"endTime":3039.335,"body":"So the scrum master could, at that"},{"startTime":3036.215,"endTime":3039.335,"body":"point, ask the question, right."},{"startTime":3040.415,"endTime":3042.635,"body":"Is this something that you've done before?"},{"startTime":3042.635,"endTime":3043.215,"body":"Mm-hmm,  in a."},{"startTime":3043.835,"endTime":3044.225,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3044.915,"endTime":3048.155,"body":"Like what make again, to use your"},{"startTime":3044.915,"endTime":3048.155,"body":"words, what makes you believe"},{"startTime":3048.215,"endTime":3049.385,"body":"this can be done in a sprint?"},{"startTime":3049.475,"endTime":3049.685,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3049.69,"endTime":3050.885,"body":"Like I wouldn't phrase it that way."},{"startTime":3051.335,"endTime":3053.345,"body":"You know, I would just simply ask, right."},{"startTime":3053.975,"endTime":3054.875,"body":"Has this been done before?"},{"startTime":3054.875,"endTime":3057.125,"body":"You're not taking my words in"},{"startTime":3054.875,"endTime":3057.125,"body":"cuz I totally would phrase it."},{"startTime":3057.125,"endTime":3058.715,"body":"Yeah, you would  but yeah."},{"startTime":3058.715,"endTime":3062.585,"body":"So I think this car master does need to"},{"startTime":3058.715,"endTime":3062.585,"body":"inject themselves in the middle of this"},{"startTime":3062.765,"endTime":3063.995,"body":"and they don't have to be technical."},{"startTime":3064.025,"endTime":3065.135,"body":"They can be diplomatic."},{"startTime":3065.135,"endTime":3066.245,"body":"They can ask the team."},{"startTime":3066.635,"endTime":3070.275,"body":"They can say they ask here from the"},{"startTime":3066.635,"endTime":3070.275,"body":"solution architect is to do this"},{"startTime":3070.28,"endTime":3072.705,"body":"work wherever it is in a sprint."},{"startTime":3073.155,"endTime":3073.605,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3073.695,"endTime":3076.245,"body":"Just gimme a confidence"},{"startTime":3073.695,"endTime":3076.245,"body":"level, fist to five."},{"startTime":3076.305,"endTime":3076.605,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3076.61,"endTime":3077.085,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3077.085,"endTime":3081.525,"body":"Go around the room, ask people"},{"startTime":3077.085,"endTime":3081.525,"body":"mm-hmm  work out a quick average"},{"startTime":3081.525,"endTime":3084.105,"body":"in your mind and say, we don't"},{"startTime":3081.525,"endTime":3084.105,"body":"know if it can be done in a sprint."},{"startTime":3084.135,"endTime":3084.335,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3084.34,"endTime":3084.705,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3084.765,"endTime":3087.075,"body":"Why don't we aim for two and"},{"startTime":3084.765,"endTime":3087.075,"body":"if it can be done in one."},{"startTime":3087.075,"endTime":3087.465,"body":"Great."},{"startTime":3087.735,"endTime":3087.945,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3089.685,"endTime":3091.725,"body":"I wanna bring up another"},{"startTime":3089.685,"endTime":3091.725,"body":"conflict situation."},{"startTime":3091.73,"endTime":3093.855,"body":"I think this one is"},{"startTime":3091.73,"endTime":3093.855,"body":"probably pretty common."},{"startTime":3093.855,"endTime":3098.745,"body":"What do you guys do when product owners,"},{"startTime":3093.855,"endTime":3098.745,"body":"in instances, might point fingers at the"},{"startTime":3098.745,"endTime":3103.635,"body":"scrum masters saying maybe we're not as"},{"startTime":3098.745,"endTime":3103.635,"body":"productive because of you guys, maybe"},{"startTime":3103.875,"endTime":3105.555,"body":"we're not delivering because of you."},{"startTime":3105.555,"endTime":3109.905,"body":"It's not our lack of requirements or their"},{"startTime":3105.555,"endTime":3109.905,"body":"understanding of our requirements, or"},{"startTime":3109.905,"endTime":3111.345,"body":"even the late requirements we're bringing."},{"startTime":3111.355,"endTime":3111.915,"body":"No, no, no, no."},{"startTime":3111.915,"endTime":3112.395,"body":"This is you."},{"startTime":3112.905,"endTime":3118.125,"body":"Well, how, how would they, what would"},{"startTime":3112.905,"endTime":3118.125,"body":"be an example of paying a scrum master?"},{"startTime":3118.125,"endTime":3122.985,"body":"Like, I can't, I can't like, well, they"},{"startTime":3118.125,"endTime":3122.985,"body":"would be the scapegoat in this situation."},{"startTime":3122.985,"endTime":3123.135,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":3124.275,"endTime":3128.925,"body":"So this wouldn't be blaming product for"},{"startTime":3124.275,"endTime":3128.925,"body":"not delivering, not doing their job."},{"startTime":3129.015,"endTime":3130.665,"body":"Well, it's that scrum master."},{"startTime":3130.665,"endTime":3135.195,"body":"Who's not a part of our group thoughts."},{"startTime":3135.735,"endTime":3136.245,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3136.245,"endTime":3141.765,"body":"I mean, this little thing starts when"},{"startTime":3136.245,"endTime":3141.765,"body":"you use words like us and them, right?"},{"startTime":3141.765,"endTime":3142.335,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3142.545,"endTime":3146.475,"body":"So the product organization, the"},{"startTime":3142.545,"endTime":3146.475,"body":"product owner is part of the team."},{"startTime":3146.565,"endTime":3147.045,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3147.345,"endTime":3151.485,"body":"And I sometimes come across teams"},{"startTime":3147.345,"endTime":3151.485,"body":"that speak like this within the team."},{"startTime":3151.545,"endTime":3153.285,"body":"They'll just say, well, they don't"},{"startTime":3151.545,"endTime":3153.285,"body":"know what they're talking about."},{"startTime":3153.885,"endTime":3154.515,"body":"Who's they?"},{"startTime":3154.905,"endTime":3156.975,"body":"Or the, the business, the product owners."},{"startTime":3157.065,"endTime":3157.125,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3157.125,"endTime":3158.865,"body":"Well, they're part of the team, right?"},{"startTime":3158.865,"endTime":3160.875,"body":"They're it's us there's no, they, yeah."},{"startTime":3161.205,"endTime":3164.055,"body":"I would have a conversation with"},{"startTime":3161.205,"endTime":3164.055,"body":"the product owner who believes"},{"startTime":3164.055,"endTime":3166.755,"body":"the scrum master is the reason"},{"startTime":3164.055,"endTime":3166.755,"body":"why things aren't being delivered."},{"startTime":3167.115,"endTime":3167.415,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3167.565,"endTime":3170.66,"body":"Just ask for examples, just say"},{"startTime":3167.565,"endTime":3170.66,"body":"gimme some examples I'm looking"},{"startTime":3170.665,"endTime":3173.065,"body":"to improve how can I do better?"},{"startTime":3173.065,"endTime":3175.645,"body":"Gimme examples of where"},{"startTime":3173.065,"endTime":3175.645,"body":"I've impeded the team."},{"startTime":3176.035,"endTime":3176.845,"body":"From delivering."},{"startTime":3177.415,"endTime":3182.005,"body":"So what if that conversation has had,"},{"startTime":3177.415,"endTime":3182.005,"body":"and, and it's clear, it's not anything"},{"startTime":3182.005,"endTime":3187.105,"body":"that you were a part of, but the problem"},{"startTime":3182.005,"endTime":3187.105,"body":"is how do you get other people to"},{"startTime":3187.105,"endTime":3190.675,"body":"realize that, because at this point,"},{"startTime":3187.105,"endTime":3190.675,"body":"isn't the scrum master's reputation,"},{"startTime":3190.68,"endTime":3194.365,"body":"slightly tainted in the eyes and ears"},{"startTime":3190.68,"endTime":3194.365,"body":"of these other people who heard this"},{"startTime":3194.501,"endTime":3195.431,"body":"no, I don't think so."},{"startTime":3195.461,"endTime":3198.071,"body":"I think the scrum master needs"},{"startTime":3195.461,"endTime":3198.071,"body":"to have some pretty thick skin."},{"startTime":3198.131,"endTime":3198.461,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3198.521,"endTime":3199.871,"body":"Uh, I wouldn't worry about that."},{"startTime":3199.871,"endTime":3204.131,"body":"I would look at the history of"},{"startTime":3199.871,"endTime":3204.131,"body":"the team, the delivery of the,"},{"startTime":3204.181,"endTime":3205.601,"body":"what, what they've done, right."},{"startTime":3205.606,"endTime":3209.771,"body":"And say, given the capacity that the team"},{"startTime":3205.606,"endTime":3209.771,"body":"has and given the information we have"},{"startTime":3209.771,"endTime":3211.881,"body":"available, this is the what's the word?"},{"startTime":3211.931,"endTime":3213.731,"body":"The, the prime directive, right?"},{"startTime":3213.731,"endTime":3217.011,"body":"That, that's what this is given"},{"startTime":3213.731,"endTime":3217.011,"body":"everything that we had at our"},{"startTime":3217.011,"endTime":3219.231,"body":"disposal, we did the best job we could."},{"startTime":3219.321,"endTime":3221.601,"body":"And this is where we are right now."},{"startTime":3221.606,"endTime":3227.061,"body":"If you all have suggestions for"},{"startTime":3221.606,"endTime":3227.061,"body":"making us more efficient  right."},{"startTime":3227.061,"endTime":3228.811,"body":"Or effective I'm all ears."},{"startTime":3229.171,"endTime":3231.811,"body":"Are you having this conversation"},{"startTime":3229.171,"endTime":3231.811,"body":"with a product owner or the"},{"startTime":3231.811,"endTime":3232.921,"body":"product team at this point?"},{"startTime":3234.121,"endTime":3234.231,"body":"The product team, everybody."},{"startTime":3234.231,"endTime":3234.431,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3234.436,"endTime":3234.571,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3234.571,"endTime":3235.291,"body":"Yeah, sure, sure."},{"startTime":3235.351,"endTime":3235.981,"body":"That makes sense."},{"startTime":3236.551,"endTime":3239.371,"body":"Cause like I said, if you had it"},{"startTime":3236.551,"endTime":3239.371,"body":"with one person, say the product"},{"startTime":3239.371,"endTime":3242.191,"body":"owner on your team, you got them"},{"startTime":3239.371,"endTime":3242.191,"body":"to understand the situation."},{"startTime":3242.881,"endTime":3243.241,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3243.241,"endTime":3246.721,"body":"Who's to say that goes back to"},{"startTime":3243.241,"endTime":3246.721,"body":"the product team and the business."},{"startTime":3246.721,"endTime":3246.901,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3246.901,"endTime":3247.651,"body":"That's what I meant."},{"startTime":3247.771,"endTime":3252.181,"body":"Isn't your name as the scrum master"},{"startTime":3247.771,"endTime":3252.181,"body":"slandered by that point in your reputation"},{"startTime":3252.661,"endTime":3254.401,"body":"maybe, but I wouldn't dwell on that."},{"startTime":3254.581,"endTime":3254.901,"body":"I, I."},{"startTime":3255.376,"endTime":3259.876,"body":"Really address the product team mm-hmm"},{"startTime":3255.376,"endTime":3259.876,"body":"and help them understand how things"},{"startTime":3259.876,"endTime":3262.436,"body":"work in scrum mm-hmm  mm-hmm  yeah."},{"startTime":3262.436,"endTime":3264.326,"body":"I wouldn't worry too much"},{"startTime":3262.436,"endTime":3264.326,"body":"about the reputation."},{"startTime":3264.331,"endTime":3269.246,"body":"It will fix itself once the team"},{"startTime":3264.331,"endTime":3269.246,"body":"becomes a smooth well on machine, right."},{"startTime":3269.251,"endTime":3272.066,"body":"That that's really your"},{"startTime":3269.251,"endTime":3272.066,"body":"job as a scrum master."},{"startTime":3272.576,"endTime":3272.866,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3272.871,"endTime":3273.176,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3273.446,"endTime":3276.626,"body":"I, I don't think it's worth spending"},{"startTime":3273.446,"endTime":3276.626,"body":"too much time thinking about the"},{"startTime":3276.626,"endTime":3279.056,"body":"reputation of a scrum master necessarily."},{"startTime":3279.206,"endTime":3283.706,"body":"Now having said that if somebody's"},{"startTime":3279.206,"endTime":3283.706,"body":"directly pointing that out to you from"},{"startTime":3283.706,"endTime":3285.716,"body":"the product organization, then yeah."},{"startTime":3285.716,"endTime":3287.366,"body":"You need to have that"},{"startTime":3285.716,"endTime":3287.366,"body":"conversation with them."},{"startTime":3288.596,"endTime":3289.046,"body":"Definitely."},{"startTime":3289.051,"endTime":3289.136,"body":"Hmm."},{"startTime":3289.496,"endTime":3290.726,"body":"What are your thoughts, Brian?"},{"startTime":3290.726,"endTime":3291.896,"body":"You're awfully quiet."},{"startTime":3292.576,"endTime":3294.826,"body":"I don't, I don't take kindly to people."},{"startTime":3294.826,"endTime":3296.296,"body":"Slen my reputations."},{"startTime":3296.296,"endTime":3299.196,"body":"I would I challenge them to"},{"startTime":3296.296,"endTime":3299.196,"body":"a dual and  meet it high."},{"startTime":3299.196,"endTime":3300.186,"body":"No dead bases."},{"startTime":3300.186,"endTime":3300.516,"body":"Meet it."},{"startTime":3300.516,"endTime":3301.176,"body":"High noon."},{"startTime":3301.236,"endTime":3301.716,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":3302.434,"endTime":3307.714,"body":"It's a very strange position to"},{"startTime":3302.434,"endTime":3307.714,"body":"be in like, like basically someone"},{"startTime":3307.719,"endTime":3309.124,"body":"saying you're not doing your job."},{"startTime":3309.124,"endTime":3312.129,"body":"I don't know I, I it's difficult"},{"startTime":3309.124,"endTime":3312.129,"body":"for me because I, I don't"},{"startTime":3312.129,"endTime":3313.209,"body":"live in that space anymore."},{"startTime":3313.209,"endTime":3319.029,"body":"So as like, what evidence do"},{"startTime":3313.209,"endTime":3319.029,"body":"you have that says, well, I'll"},{"startTime":3319.029,"endTime":3321.019,"body":"give you a hypothetical example."},{"startTime":3321.729,"endTime":3322.119,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":3322.479,"endTime":3328.179,"body":"So for instance, I think I mentioned"},{"startTime":3322.479,"endTime":3328.179,"body":"this earlier, if the product owner has"},{"startTime":3328.184,"endTime":3334.929,"body":"continuously maybe changed requirements"},{"startTime":3328.184,"endTime":3334.929,"body":"mid sprint, or it wasn't clear enough"},{"startTime":3335.859,"endTime":3338.019,"body":"later on as things were revised."},{"startTime":3338.024,"endTime":3338.379,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3338.379,"endTime":3340.119,"body":"And there was a conversation around that."},{"startTime":3340.119,"endTime":3343.839,"body":"So it didn't make the deployment"},{"startTime":3340.119,"endTime":3343.839,"body":"mm-hmm  that it was scheduled for"},{"startTime":3343.869,"endTime":3345.429,"body":"originally because of the changes."},{"startTime":3345.909,"endTime":3348.609,"body":"So for them to come back and"},{"startTime":3345.909,"endTime":3348.609,"body":"say, who was the scrum master?"},{"startTime":3348.609,"endTime":3350.049,"body":"It was, it was you."},{"startTime":3350.289,"endTime":3354.009,"body":"Yeah, in this situation, if they've"},{"startTime":3350.289,"endTime":3354.009,"body":"really changed requirements or they"},{"startTime":3354.009,"endTime":3358.489,"body":"were late or they weren't clear"},{"startTime":3354.009,"endTime":3358.489,"body":"enough I would basically conduct a"},{"startTime":3358.489,"endTime":3365.389,"body":"retrospective with the team and put"},{"startTime":3358.489,"endTime":3365.389,"body":"that on a board and display that to the"},{"startTime":3365.389,"endTime":3368.929,"body":"product owners, specifically, the people"},{"startTime":3365.389,"endTime":3368.929,"body":"that are changing the requirements."},{"startTime":3368.929,"endTime":3368.989,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3368.989,"endTime":3372.979,"body":"And say, we did a retrospective on"},{"startTime":3368.989,"endTime":3372.979,"body":"the root causes of why we didn't"},{"startTime":3372.979,"endTime":3375.169,"body":"deliver as much as you are looking for."},{"startTime":3375.499,"endTime":3377.419,"body":"And these are the reasons"},{"startTime":3375.499,"endTime":3377.419,"body":"the team came up with."},{"startTime":3378.259,"endTime":3378.289,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":3378.289,"endTime":3381.53,"body":"So you're removing yourself from the"},{"startTime":3378.289,"endTime":3381.53,"body":"situation as scrum master at that point."},{"startTime":3381.535,"endTime":3381.809,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":3381.809,"endTime":3381.969,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3382.129,"endTime":3382.459,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3382.999,"endTime":3383.839,"body":"I would try that."},{"startTime":3383.989,"endTime":3384.379,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3384.379,"endTime":3388.749,"body":"I mean, I would also think that"},{"startTime":3384.379,"endTime":3388.749,"body":"if requirements are changed very"},{"startTime":3388.749,"endTime":3392.999,"body":"late in the process  that you"},{"startTime":3388.749,"endTime":3392.999,"body":"would be able to show that you'd be"},{"startTime":3393.004,"endTime":3394.409,"body":"able to show the metrics of that."},{"startTime":3394.414,"endTime":3399.449,"body":"The, Hey, the team took on five stories"},{"startTime":3394.414,"endTime":3399.449,"body":"and of those five stories that we took"},{"startTime":3399.449,"endTime":3405.329,"body":"on the beginning of the sprint out of"},{"startTime":3399.449,"endTime":3405.329,"body":"those 5, 3 were changed mid sprint."},{"startTime":3406.229,"endTime":3411.539,"body":"I mean, you can't expect that, like when"},{"startTime":3406.229,"endTime":3411.539,"body":"you start the sprint, you can't expect a"},{"startTime":3411.539,"endTime":3415.979,"body":"change  60% of the scope of the sprint."},{"startTime":3416.069,"endTime":3416.219,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3416.519,"endTime":3420.039,"body":"And, and get what the team committed"},{"startTime":3416.519,"endTime":3420.039,"body":"to in the beginning, you know yeah."},{"startTime":3420.369,"endTime":3426.609,"body":"A three out of five would be 60%,"},{"startTime":3420.369,"endTime":3426.609,"body":"like when armed with real metrics"},{"startTime":3428.709,"endTime":3435.009,"body":"and your organization is committed"},{"startTime":3428.709,"endTime":3435.009,"body":"to talking about real metrics."},{"startTime":3435.159,"endTime":3437.889,"body":"Mm-hmm  then they have"},{"startTime":3435.159,"endTime":3437.889,"body":"to address the situation."},{"startTime":3437.889,"endTime":3444.949,"body":"But  I say that like also ready to say,"},{"startTime":3437.889,"endTime":3444.949,"body":"I've been in a bunch of organizations"},{"startTime":3444.949,"endTime":3450.109,"body":"where like, you can bring metrics, but"},{"startTime":3444.949,"endTime":3450.109,"body":"like, they don't really matter, like"},{"startTime":3450.349,"endTime":3454.459,"body":"opinions matter more than metrics in"},{"startTime":3450.349,"endTime":3454.459,"body":"some organizations that I've been at"},{"startTime":3454.459,"endTime":3459.839,"body":"where like certain people's opinions"},{"startTime":3454.459,"endTime":3459.839,"body":"are more important and more defensible."},{"startTime":3460.349,"endTime":3465.199,"body":"Like this goes back to the, the, the"},{"startTime":3460.349,"endTime":3465.199,"body":"John co leading changes if you want"},{"startTime":3465.199,"endTime":3469.579,"body":"something outta your organization, but"},{"startTime":3465.199,"endTime":3469.579,"body":"you know, some people are gonna resist."},{"startTime":3469.819,"endTime":3473.959,"body":"You have to lay out the vision of your"},{"startTime":3469.819,"endTime":3473.959,"body":"organization and communicate to everyone."},{"startTime":3474.409,"endTime":3480.289,"body":"And the people that still resist, even"},{"startTime":3474.409,"endTime":3480.289,"body":"though you've laid out the change in"},{"startTime":3480.289,"endTime":3485.089,"body":"the organization and they willingly"},{"startTime":3480.289,"endTime":3485.089,"body":"are like, they're obviously resisting."},{"startTime":3485.089,"endTime":3488.239,"body":"You have to, you have to either have"},{"startTime":3485.089,"endTime":3488.239,"body":"a one-on-one with them and get them"},{"startTime":3488.239,"endTime":3491.209,"body":"to change your behavior, or just"},{"startTime":3488.239,"endTime":3491.209,"body":"cut them outta the organization."},{"startTime":3491.659,"endTime":3491.899,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3492.619,"endTime":3498.499,"body":"I think of this in the same vein as like"},{"startTime":3492.619,"endTime":3498.499,"body":"if you have people that are changing"},{"startTime":3498.739,"endTime":3505.709,"body":"requirements, even when they're in"},{"startTime":3498.739,"endTime":3505.709,"body":"the sprint in mid sprint, changing AC"},{"startTime":3506.639,"endTime":3512.034,"body":"modifying behavior, changing basically the"},{"startTime":3506.639,"endTime":3512.034,"body":"root of the story as this, I want this or"},{"startTime":3512.039,"endTime":3513.384,"body":"whatever, well, I don't want this anymore."},{"startTime":3513.384,"endTime":3514.794,"body":"I want this or whatever."},{"startTime":3515.124,"endTime":3520.404,"body":"Again, assuming it's not a team issue"},{"startTime":3515.124,"endTime":3520.404,"body":"where like if they're starting to work"},{"startTime":3520.409,"endTime":3523.674,"body":"on a story and it has no acceptance"},{"startTime":3520.409,"endTime":3523.674,"body":"criteria, well, we'll just figure it out."},{"startTime":3524.004,"endTime":3526.554,"body":"We'll figure out the like,"},{"startTime":3524.004,"endTime":3526.554,"body":"mm-hmm that is on the team."},{"startTime":3526.554,"endTime":3526.974,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":3527.184,"endTime":3530.004,"body":"Like not having an acceptance"},{"startTime":3527.184,"endTime":3530.004,"body":"criteria, meter definition of ready."},{"startTime":3530.004,"endTime":3530.684,"body":"We wouldn't take it out."},{"startTime":3530.689,"endTime":3535.504,"body":"But if you start the story and the"},{"startTime":3530.689,"endTime":3535.504,"body":"product owner adds exceptance criteria,"},{"startTime":3535.594,"endTime":3545.314,"body":"as the story moves along, either the team"},{"startTime":3535.594,"endTime":3545.314,"body":"didn't spend enough time in planning to"},{"startTime":3545.319,"endTime":3549.304,"body":"figure out all the exception criteria"},{"startTime":3545.319,"endTime":3549.304,"body":"and then split the story appropriately,"},{"startTime":3550.504,"endTime":3555.754,"body":"or the product person has added stuff."},{"startTime":3557.494,"endTime":3558.067,"body":"Mm-hmm  to the story."},{"startTime":3558.067,"endTime":3558.634,"body":"Mm-hmm  yeah."},{"startTime":3558.634,"endTime":3560.914,"body":"Assuming they've added"},{"startTime":3558.634,"endTime":3560.914,"body":"stuff to the story though."},{"startTime":3560.919,"endTime":3562.144,"body":"It's an opportunity though."},{"startTime":3562.294,"endTime":3564.244,"body":"I would see that as an"},{"startTime":3562.294,"endTime":3564.244,"body":"opportunity to coach them."},{"startTime":3564.304,"endTime":3565.204,"body":"I think so, too."},{"startTime":3565.204,"endTime":3565.444,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3565.564,"endTime":3566.284,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":3567.244,"endTime":3570.124,"body":"Maybe they don't understand that things"},{"startTime":3567.244,"endTime":3570.124,"body":"shouldn't change once space started."},{"startTime":3570.284,"endTime":3574.004,"body":"Well, they, well, again, what if"},{"startTime":3570.284,"endTime":3574.004,"body":"they say this I understand, but"},{"startTime":3574.004,"endTime":3575.804,"body":"business said, this is imperative."},{"startTime":3575.804,"endTime":3577.394,"body":"This needs to, but then"},{"startTime":3575.804,"endTime":3577.394,"body":"it's not a failure."},{"startTime":3577.814,"endTime":3579.104,"body":"Right there."},{"startTime":3579.104,"endTime":3581.864,"body":"There's a, we've actually met"},{"startTime":3579.104,"endTime":3581.864,"body":"the requirements of the business."},{"startTime":3581.864,"endTime":3582.374,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":3582.464,"endTime":3582.734,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3583.094,"endTime":3587.399,"body":"So I would just turn it on turn"},{"startTime":3583.094,"endTime":3587.399,"body":"it to a positive mm-hmm  having"},{"startTime":3587.404,"endTime":3592.799,"body":"been on the development side of"},{"startTime":3587.404,"endTime":3592.799,"body":"this issue, I see both sides."},{"startTime":3593.309,"endTime":3597.599,"body":"side number one is until we"},{"startTime":3593.309,"endTime":3597.599,"body":"started working on it, we didn't"},{"startTime":3597.599,"endTime":3601.349,"body":"know how deep the issue went."},{"startTime":3601.679,"endTime":3601.949,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3601.954,"endTime":3602.339,"body":"Yeah, sure."},{"startTime":3602.519,"endTime":3605.789,"body":"That, that that's part of our learnings"},{"startTime":3602.519,"endTime":3605.789,"body":"and our capabilities as we learn."},{"startTime":3605.819,"endTime":3605.909,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":3605.909,"endTime":3606.029,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3606.029,"endTime":3609.639,"body":"As we work on things, the, the"},{"startTime":3606.029,"endTime":3609.639,"body":"other side of this is you shouldn't"},{"startTime":3609.639,"endTime":3611.079,"body":"have committed to something."},{"startTime":3611.889,"endTime":3616.659,"body":"If you didn't do the investigatory"},{"startTime":3611.889,"endTime":3616.659,"body":"work to figure out how deep it went."},{"startTime":3617.229,"endTime":3617.319,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3617.319,"endTime":3619.269,"body":"Tho those are the two sides for this."},{"startTime":3619.269,"endTime":3621.939,"body":"I agree on both of those, maybe"},{"startTime":3619.269,"endTime":3621.939,"body":"on the first one, you should"},{"startTime":3621.939,"endTime":3623.109,"body":"have considered the risk."},{"startTime":3623.409,"endTime":3623.679,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3623.679,"endTime":3624.699,"body":"Cause you didn't know enough."},{"startTime":3624.759,"endTime":3624.849,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3624.849,"endTime":3625.989,"body":"And sized appropriately."},{"startTime":3625.989,"endTime":3629.739,"body":"Maybe just create a spike instead"},{"startTime":3625.989,"endTime":3629.739,"body":"these things can be changed."},{"startTime":3629.769,"endTime":3630.069,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3630.219,"endTime":3633.669,"body":"But assuming that it wasn't that"},{"startTime":3630.219,"endTime":3633.669,"body":"from the team, the product order"},{"startTime":3633.669,"endTime":3635.289,"body":"actually changed the requirement."},{"startTime":3635.349,"endTime":3635.529,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3635.889,"endTime":3637.569,"body":"Then that's a coaching moment right there."},{"startTime":3637.699,"endTime":3639.289,"body":"That's going, feels to change a tire."},{"startTime":3639.289,"endTime":3641.209,"body":"And the car's being driven"},{"startTime":3639.289,"endTime":3641.209,"body":"at 60 miles an hour."},{"startTime":3643.279,"endTime":3644.269,"body":"That's what the team feels."},{"startTime":3644.269,"endTime":3647.509,"body":"They have to scrap all the"},{"startTime":3644.269,"endTime":3647.509,"body":"tests that they've written."},{"startTime":3647.839,"endTime":3649.339,"body":"They have to start again basically."},{"startTime":3649.339,"endTime":3649.609,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3649.609,"endTime":3653.299,"body":"And that's why it's, it's"},{"startTime":3649.609,"endTime":3653.299,"body":"disruptive in a bad way."},{"startTime":3653.699,"endTime":3655.229,"body":"Let's go back to in conflict."},{"startTime":3655.349,"endTime":3655.859,"body":"I like it."},{"startTime":3655.979,"endTime":3656.459,"body":"Cool."},{"startTime":3656.489,"endTime":3659.339,"body":"So let's go back to the"},{"startTime":3656.489,"endTime":3659.339,"body":"other hypothetical scenario."},{"startTime":3659.399,"endTime":3661.559,"body":"You were talking about"},{"startTime":3659.399,"endTime":3661.559,"body":"peer to peer, right?"},{"startTime":3661.859,"endTime":3663.159,"body":"What about superior?"},{"startTime":3664.039,"endTime":3664.309,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3664.309,"endTime":3665.279,"body":"So like say you were."},{"startTime":3666.199,"endTime":3670.489,"body":"Disrespected in a meeting,"},{"startTime":3666.199,"endTime":3670.489,"body":"something wasn't appropriately said,"},{"startTime":3670.489,"endTime":3672.349,"body":"whatever something was was wrong."},{"startTime":3672.349,"endTime":3672.949,"body":"Whoa, whoa, whoa."},{"startTime":3673.289,"endTime":3677.774,"body":"I like, I wanna cut in because there's"},{"startTime":3673.289,"endTime":3677.774,"body":"different scenarios here, which is number"},{"startTime":3677.779,"endTime":3683.304,"body":"one, you're being openly disrespected,"},{"startTime":3677.779,"endTime":3683.304,"body":"Uhhuh  number two is a, like a superior"},{"startTime":3683.864,"endTime":3686.564,"body":"in your organization than somebody"},{"startTime":3683.864,"endTime":3686.564,"body":"who's your supervisor or whatever is"},{"startTime":3686.774,"endTime":3688.604,"body":"disagreeing with what you're saying."},{"startTime":3689.744,"endTime":3690.884,"body":"Those are different scenarios."},{"startTime":3691.034,"endTime":3695.464,"body":"So you, as my boss are in a meeting and"},{"startTime":3691.034,"endTime":3695.464,"body":"saying, oh, Brian I think you're wrong."},{"startTime":3695.464,"endTime":3699.204,"body":"I like the problem is not that"},{"startTime":3695.464,"endTime":3699.204,"body":"we have 25 minute retrospectives."},{"startTime":3699.294,"endTime":3700.344,"body":"That's not the problem."},{"startTime":3700.884,"endTime":3700.914,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":3700.944,"endTime":3704.454,"body":"That is different than openly"},{"startTime":3700.944,"endTime":3704.454,"body":"disrespecting you inside of a meeting."},{"startTime":3704.584,"endTime":3708.599,"body":"This came up , for me recently, I"},{"startTime":3704.584,"endTime":3708.599,"body":"don't know if I even wanna leave this"},{"startTime":3708.599,"endTime":3712.579,"body":"in the podcast, but I told somebody"},{"startTime":3708.599,"endTime":3712.579,"body":"recently when I was a manager."},{"startTime":3714.574,"endTime":3719.014,"body":"There was a point in time when"},{"startTime":3714.574,"endTime":3719.014,"body":"I was a QA manager, when every"},{"startTime":3719.474,"endTime":3722.849,"body":"employee in my group was a woman."},{"startTime":3724.049,"endTime":3729.099,"body":"I was the only dude in this that's,"},{"startTime":3724.049,"endTime":3729.099,"body":"that's the only application, right?"},{"startTime":3729.309,"endTime":3730.329,"body":"Dude, woman."},{"startTime":3730.419,"endTime":3730.689,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3730.809,"endTime":3736.024,"body":"Um like I was the only uh, man in the"},{"startTime":3730.809,"endTime":3736.024,"body":"organization and every one of my employees"},{"startTime":3736.054,"endTime":3740.619,"body":"was a woman and I would go to meetings"},{"startTime":3736.054,"endTime":3740.619,"body":"like sprint playings, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":3740.979,"endTime":3747.579,"body":"And if somebody would disagree or segue"},{"startTime":3740.979,"endTime":3747.579,"body":"on something that one of my employees"},{"startTime":3748.419,"endTime":3754.819,"body":"were trying to question just because I"},{"startTime":3748.419,"endTime":3754.819,"body":"was in the meeting and it was my employee,"},{"startTime":3755.409,"endTime":3757.464,"body":"I wouldn't let it go on first pass."},{"startTime":3757.469,"endTime":3762.264,"body":"Mm-hmm  I would, I would reinforce"},{"startTime":3757.469,"endTime":3762.264,"body":"their question, so that it was discussed"},{"startTime":3762.294,"endTime":3766.404,"body":"by the whole group and it, it wasn't"},{"startTime":3762.294,"endTime":3766.404,"body":"just so like shut down by one person."},{"startTime":3767.584,"endTime":3770.314,"body":"I make it seem like a male female"},{"startTime":3767.584,"endTime":3770.314,"body":"thing, but it, it really was."},{"startTime":3770.314,"endTime":3773.524,"body":"Cuz I, I did that even when there"},{"startTime":3770.314,"endTime":3773.524,"body":"were men on the team and women on the"},{"startTime":3773.524,"endTime":3777.224,"body":"team, but it was a very male-centric"},{"startTime":3773.524,"endTime":3777.224,"body":"organization at that point."},{"startTime":3777.464,"endTime":3779.054,"body":"I don't even know why"},{"startTime":3777.464,"endTime":3779.054,"body":"I'm going on this path."},{"startTime":3779.354,"endTime":3783.954,"body":"There's a book written on this about"},{"startTime":3779.354,"endTime":3783.954,"body":"uh women that worked in the Obama white"},{"startTime":3783.954,"endTime":3788.694,"body":"house where they came up with a tactic"},{"startTime":3783.954,"endTime":3788.694,"body":"where if a woman in the Obama white"},{"startTime":3788.694,"endTime":3792.194,"body":"house would come up with an idea or"},{"startTime":3788.694,"endTime":3792.194,"body":"a suggestion when they brought up the"},{"startTime":3792.194,"endTime":3793.754,"body":"suggestion, I'm reading somebody else."},{"startTime":3793.759,"endTime":3794.024,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3794.024,"endTime":3794.144,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3794.144,"endTime":3795.524,"body":"Another woman would echo it."},{"startTime":3795.524,"endTime":3799.334,"body":"Somebody else just, just on principle,"},{"startTime":3795.524,"endTime":3799.334,"body":"somebody else would echo it to make sure"},{"startTime":3799.334,"endTime":3804.284,"body":"that it was heard and, and considered"},{"startTime":3799.334,"endTime":3804.284,"body":"rather than immediately dismissed by"},{"startTime":3804.284,"endTime":3810.254,"body":"the hierarchy that was male dominated"},{"startTime":3804.284,"endTime":3810.254,"body":"staff at the time that, dismissed, not on"},{"startTime":3810.259,"endTime":3812.234,"body":"merit, but because it came from a woman."},{"startTime":3812.334,"endTime":3814.879,"body":"This goes back to the,"},{"startTime":3812.334,"endTime":3814.879,"body":"it's a good conflict."},{"startTime":3814.879,"endTime":3817.399,"body":"This goes back to the podcasts"},{"startTime":3814.879,"endTime":3817.399,"body":"we put aside for a second of"},{"startTime":3817.404,"endTime":3821.989,"body":"talking about reinforcing ideas,"},{"startTime":3817.404,"endTime":3821.989,"body":"like our ideas being heard."},{"startTime":3822.439,"endTime":3828.799,"body":"Why I brought this up was if you"},{"startTime":3822.439,"endTime":3828.799,"body":"raised a point and if that idea is"},{"startTime":3828.829,"endTime":3832.549,"body":"basically dismissed outta hand mm-hmm"},{"startTime":3828.829,"endTime":3832.549,"body":", mm-hmm , there should be someone"},{"startTime":3832.549,"endTime":3837.259,"body":"that says, Hey, like let's stop and"},{"startTime":3832.549,"endTime":3837.259,"body":"let's explore that idea Uhhuh rather"},{"startTime":3837.264,"endTime":3839.089,"body":"than dismiss it outta hand, you know?"},{"startTime":3839.189,"endTime":3844.459,"body":"So an ally in the room you're saying"},{"startTime":3839.189,"endTime":3844.459,"body":"or should this be you ally in the room?"},{"startTime":3844.459,"endTime":3848.569,"body":"Mm-hmm  I, I actually, well, should this"},{"startTime":3844.459,"endTime":3848.569,"body":"be you, if you're in the scrum master"},{"startTime":3848.574,"endTime":3852.419,"body":"role, I kind of think it should if you're"},{"startTime":3848.574,"endTime":3852.419,"body":"in the scrum master role and literally"},{"startTime":3852.419,"endTime":3856.679,"body":"anyone else in the organization is saying,"},{"startTime":3852.419,"endTime":3856.679,"body":"Hey maybe we're not spending enough"},{"startTime":3856.684,"endTime":3862.299,"body":"time planning our tasks so that when"},{"startTime":3856.684,"endTime":3862.299,"body":"we get outta sprint planning, we still"},{"startTime":3862.304,"endTime":3866.709,"body":"do planning along the way while we're"},{"startTime":3862.304,"endTime":3866.709,"body":"trying to figure out how to implement"},{"startTime":3866.714,"endTime":3867.909,"body":"the tasks as the sprint goes along."},{"startTime":3868.579,"endTime":3872.739,"body":"Mm-hmm  mm-hmm  maybe instead of"},{"startTime":3868.579,"endTime":3872.739,"body":"spending one hour in sprint planning"},{"startTime":3872.949,"endTime":3877.599,"body":"per week, we should spend four hours,"},{"startTime":3872.949,"endTime":3877.599,"body":"like the book says  mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":3877.599,"endTime":3878.799,"body":"And you shut down and yeah."},{"startTime":3879.039,"endTime":3881.889,"body":"That's you said here's why that's,"},{"startTime":3879.039,"endTime":3881.889,"body":"that's a ridiculous amount of time."},{"startTime":3882.159,"endTime":3882.819,"body":"Four hours."},{"startTime":3882.819,"endTime":3883.989,"body":"That's a rule half a day."},{"startTime":3883.989,"endTime":3884.199,"body":"Say that."},{"startTime":3884.199,"endTime":3885.009,"body":"How could I, yeah."},{"startTime":3885.039,"endTime":3885.219,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3885.219,"endTime":3887.829,"body":"Well, the scrum master, well, the"},{"startTime":3885.219,"endTime":3887.829,"body":"scrum master in that perspective"},{"startTime":3887.829,"endTime":3891.969,"body":"could be like, well, well, actually,"},{"startTime":3887.829,"endTime":3891.969,"body":"let's, let's stop for a second."},{"startTime":3892.239,"endTime":3893.109,"body":"I understand what you're saying."},{"startTime":3893.109,"endTime":3897.589,"body":"We don't wanna spend too much"},{"startTime":3893.109,"endTime":3897.589,"body":"time having our developers outside"},{"startTime":3897.589,"endTime":3898.969,"body":"doing non-development activities."},{"startTime":3899.209,"endTime":3902.509,"body":"But, but let's think"},{"startTime":3899.209,"endTime":3902.509,"body":"about this for a second."},{"startTime":3902.809,"endTime":3907.519,"body":"Maybe instead of one hour, maybe we can"},{"startTime":3902.809,"endTime":3907.519,"body":"do two hours doing sprint planning and"},{"startTime":3907.519,"endTime":3910.609,"body":"see if that makes a big difference and"},{"startTime":3907.519,"endTime":3910.609,"body":"not having to go back into planning,"},{"startTime":3910.789,"endTime":3915.889,"body":"like to be the, and they're interrupting"},{"startTime":3910.789,"endTime":3915.889,"body":"and they're saying no, and that's dumb"},{"startTime":3915.889,"endTime":3917.569,"body":"and you're making too many changes."},{"startTime":3917.574,"endTime":3919.189,"body":"Why are you doing this guys?"},{"startTime":3919.189,"endTime":3920.539,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":3920.629,"endTime":3921.049,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3921.049,"endTime":3921.05,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3921.055,"endTime":3921.889,"body":"Why is she doing this?"},{"startTime":3922.159,"endTime":3923.629,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":3923.629,"endTime":3926.629,"body":"To be like that's ex"},{"startTime":3923.629,"endTime":3926.629,"body":"good example of conflict."},{"startTime":3926.839,"endTime":3928.069,"body":"This is a good example of coming."},{"startTime":3928.759,"endTime":3929.509,"body":"Hang on, hang on."},{"startTime":3929.509,"endTime":3935.839,"body":"Why, why are you so opposed to"},{"startTime":3929.509,"endTime":3935.839,"body":"trying doubling the time box"},{"startTime":3936.089,"endTime":3937.559,"body":"why are you so opposed to that?"},{"startTime":3937.709,"endTime":3940.799,"body":"And you're shut, shut,"},{"startTime":3937.709,"endTime":3940.799,"body":"and then he got a crowd."},{"startTime":3940.829,"endTime":3942.239,"body":"This is all hypothetical."},{"startTime":3942.239,"endTime":3943.169,"body":"I'm just having fun with it."},{"startTime":3943.169,"endTime":3943.649,"body":"Hypothetical."},{"startTime":3943.649,"endTime":3944.099,"body":"I like it."},{"startTime":3944.129,"endTime":3944.399,"body":"I like it."},{"startTime":3944.609,"endTime":3948.059,"body":"And so what do you do after"},{"startTime":3944.609,"endTime":3948.059,"body":"that's what I wanna get to"},{"startTime":3948.119,"endTime":3949.079,"body":"that's where I was trying to get."},{"startTime":3949.664,"endTime":3952.574,"body":"How do you handle it"},{"startTime":3949.664,"endTime":3952.574,"body":"after that interaction?"},{"startTime":3952.934,"endTime":3953.294,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3953.294,"endTime":3956.054,"body":"So I think people have"},{"startTime":3953.294,"endTime":3956.054,"body":"handled it wrong, right?"},{"startTime":3956.054,"endTime":3960.614,"body":"Sometimes people will maybe like"},{"startTime":3956.054,"endTime":3960.614,"body":"vent about it in the form of like"},{"startTime":3960.619,"endTime":3964.724,"body":"gossiping, maybe like bad mouthing"},{"startTime":3960.619,"endTime":3964.724,"body":"the person because their ego was hurt."},{"startTime":3964.904,"endTime":3965.174,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3965.224,"endTime":3966.514,"body":"That's not productive."},{"startTime":3966.544,"endTime":3969.034,"body":"That will probably not cause other issues."},{"startTime":3969.034,"endTime":3969.484,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":3969.489,"endTime":3969.604,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3969.604,"endTime":3972.694,"body":"So in this instance, from what I"},{"startTime":3969.604,"endTime":3972.694,"body":"understood, you wanna have that"},{"startTime":3972.724,"endTime":3976.504,"body":"conversation directly with the"},{"startTime":3972.724,"endTime":3976.504,"body":"individual as soon as possible, right."},{"startTime":3976.504,"endTime":3981.244,"body":"You don't want too much time to ELAP where"},{"startTime":3976.504,"endTime":3981.244,"body":"it's forgotten maybe a day to simmer down,"},{"startTime":3981.454,"endTime":3983.284,"body":"but you wanna be direct with that person."},{"startTime":3983.594,"endTime":3983.954,"body":"But yeah."},{"startTime":3983.984,"endTime":3985.394,"body":"I wanna ask you guys, what would you do?"},{"startTime":3985.814,"endTime":3986.594,"body":"I think you're right."},{"startTime":3986.594,"endTime":3990.074,"body":"But I also think that when you have"},{"startTime":3986.594,"endTime":3990.074,"body":"that conversation with that person"},{"startTime":3992.474,"endTime":3994.214,"body":"tackle the problem, not the person."},{"startTime":3994.664,"endTime":3994.874,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3994.874,"endTime":3996.144,"body":"Tackle the problem, not the person."},{"startTime":3996.144,"endTime":3996.384,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3996.389,"endTime":4000.754,"body":"Tackle the problem, cuz it"},{"startTime":3996.389,"endTime":4000.754,"body":"it's not you versus him or her."},{"startTime":4000.814,"endTime":4002.944,"body":"It is the idea."},{"startTime":4003.424,"endTime":4003.664,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4003.664,"endTime":4004.294,"body":"It's the idea."},{"startTime":4004.294,"endTime":4007.864,"body":"So going back to your point about"},{"startTime":4004.294,"endTime":4007.864,"body":"the team, just saying why would you"},{"startTime":4007.864,"endTime":4009.064,"body":"say that, blah, blah, blah, right."},{"startTime":4009.454,"endTime":4011.734,"body":"Again, can we just try it one time?"},{"startTime":4011.854,"endTime":4013.864,"body":"Mm-hmm  as an experiment,"},{"startTime":4011.854,"endTime":4013.864,"body":"see how it works."},{"startTime":4013.984,"endTime":4015.304,"body":"We don't have to continue this."},{"startTime":4015.424,"endTime":4017.164,"body":"If we don't like it, let's just try it."},{"startTime":4017.974,"endTime":4020.284,"body":"And then that way, at least"},{"startTime":4017.974,"endTime":4020.284,"body":"they get to try it one time."},{"startTime":4020.294,"endTime":4021.484,"body":"Mm-hmm  that?"},{"startTime":4021.664,"endTime":4022.084,"body":"So, yeah."},{"startTime":4022.084,"endTime":4025.424,"body":"I'd just say that tackle the,"},{"startTime":4022.084,"endTime":4025.424,"body":"probably not the person mm-hmm"},{"startTime":4026.434,"endTime":4027.394,"body":"I mean, there's always an."},{"startTime":4028.189,"endTime":4033.199,"body":"Probably someone feels very"},{"startTime":4028.189,"endTime":4033.199,"body":"closely aligned with the problem."},{"startTime":4033.229,"endTime":4033.559,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":4033.559,"endTime":4035.569,"body":"Like identifying with the problem."},{"startTime":4035.569,"endTime":4038.339,"body":"So like, oh, you're saying the problem"},{"startTime":4035.569,"endTime":4038.339,"body":"is me but like you were mentioning"},{"startTime":4038.339,"endTime":4040.329,"body":"you avoid you statements, right?"},{"startTime":4040.349,"endTime":4045.279,"body":"You say, we statements, you make sure"},{"startTime":4040.349,"endTime":4045.279,"body":"they know we're in this together."},{"startTime":4045.539,"endTime":4045.809,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4045.899,"endTime":4046.859,"body":"Why we're doing this?"},{"startTime":4046.859,"endTime":4048.659,"body":"You, you mentioned the why behind it."},{"startTime":4049.649,"endTime":4054.899,"body":"I also wanna say that in almost every"},{"startTime":4049.649,"endTime":4054.899,"body":"situation, you'd be able to look at"},{"startTime":4054.899,"endTime":4057.689,"body":"the, especially if you're focusing"},{"startTime":4054.899,"endTime":4057.689,"body":"on the problem, not the person."},{"startTime":4057.689,"endTime":4057.989,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4058.199,"endTime":4061.679,"body":"You'd be able to look at the"},{"startTime":4058.199,"endTime":4061.679,"body":"problem and arrive at something"},{"startTime":4061.679,"endTime":4064.259,"body":"you agree with them on."},{"startTime":4064.649,"endTime":4064.889,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4064.889,"endTime":4067.329,"body":"So if they say, well, we"},{"startTime":4064.889,"endTime":4067.329,"body":"shouldn't be doing these"},{"startTime":4067.329,"endTime":4068.919,"body":"events that are two hours long."},{"startTime":4068.919,"endTime":4069.009,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":4069.609,"endTime":4070.269,"body":"Well, okay."},{"startTime":4070.274,"endTime":4073.089,"body":"So you agree that one"},{"startTime":4070.274,"endTime":4073.089,"body":"hour is not enough, right?"},{"startTime":4073.089,"endTime":4077.649,"body":"Mm-hmm  so you're agreeing with them"},{"startTime":4073.089,"endTime":4077.649,"body":"that one hour is not enough, but"},{"startTime":4077.679,"endTime":4080.979,"body":"you're also saying, okay, well I'm not"},{"startTime":4077.679,"endTime":4080.979,"body":"gonna force this two hour thing, but"},{"startTime":4080.979,"endTime":4082.239,"body":"we're gonna try it as an experiment."},{"startTime":4082.269,"endTime":4083.349,"body":"We'll just try it one time."},{"startTime":4084.219,"endTime":4087.129,"body":"And if we get done in an"},{"startTime":4084.219,"endTime":4087.129,"body":"hour and a half, great."},{"startTime":4087.369,"endTime":4088.419,"body":"Let's just try two though."},{"startTime":4088.749,"endTime":4089.139,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":4089.559,"endTime":4091.599,"body":"Just we'll book the meeting for two hours."},{"startTime":4091.599,"endTime":4092.289,"body":"Let the team go."},{"startTime":4092.439,"endTime":4094.029,"body":"Mm-hmm  and see how long it takes them."},{"startTime":4094.269,"endTime":4094.869,"body":"How about that?"},{"startTime":4095.079,"endTime":4097.869,"body":"If it takes them, if it takes an"},{"startTime":4095.079,"endTime":4097.869,"body":"hour and a half, then in the future,"},{"startTime":4097.869,"endTime":4099.189,"body":"we'll do another hour and a half."},{"startTime":4099.309,"endTime":4101.469,"body":"And if we find that's not"},{"startTime":4099.309,"endTime":4101.469,"body":"enough, we can always go to two."},{"startTime":4101.799,"endTime":4101.979,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4103.929,"endTime":4106.329,"body":"Mm-hmm  so find something"},{"startTime":4103.929,"endTime":4106.329,"body":"you agree with them."},{"startTime":4106.899,"endTime":4112.839,"body":"And then turn that around and say, so we"},{"startTime":4106.899,"endTime":4112.839,"body":"are, we are not on opposite sides here."},{"startTime":4113.019,"endTime":4113.409,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":4113.469,"endTime":4116.499,"body":"Mm-hmm , mm-hmm , we're just trying to"},{"startTime":4113.469,"endTime":4116.499,"body":"improve the process here in some way."},{"startTime":4116.529,"endTime":4118.569,"body":"That's a good way to"},{"startTime":4116.529,"endTime":4118.569,"body":"diffuse the situation."},{"startTime":4119.259,"endTime":4119.319,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4119.349,"endTime":4120.099,"body":"What do you think, Brian?"},{"startTime":4120.279,"endTime":4125.389,"body":"It'd be nice to get the product person"},{"startTime":4120.279,"endTime":4125.389,"body":"on your side before continuing for"},{"startTime":4125.389,"endTime":4131.989,"body":"the rest of these discussions, cuz"},{"startTime":4125.389,"endTime":4131.989,"body":"like that, that goes a super long way."},{"startTime":4133.249,"endTime":4133.459,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4133.489,"endTime":4133.909,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4134.689,"endTime":4135.589,"body":"They should be in the team."},{"startTime":4135.589,"endTime":4137.479,"body":"They should be treated"},{"startTime":4135.589,"endTime":4137.479,"body":"like a team member, right?"},{"startTime":4137.517,"endTime":4139.782,"body":"I can come up with more"},{"startTime":4137.517,"endTime":4139.782,"body":"hypotheticals if we wanna keep going."},{"startTime":4139.782,"endTime":4139.932,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4140.442,"endTime":4143.232,"body":"I I'm happy to talk through"},{"startTime":4140.442,"endTime":4143.232,"body":"hypotheticals all night."},{"startTime":4143.392,"endTime":4143.692,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":4144.082,"endTime":4144.832,"body":"One question."},{"startTime":4144.832,"endTime":4149.298,"body":"I just thought of how do you"},{"startTime":4144.832,"endTime":4149.298,"body":"mentally prepare yourself"},{"startTime":4149.298,"endTime":4150.708,"body":"to deal with this conflict?"},{"startTime":4150.708,"endTime":4153.968,"body":"So in the situation we were just"},{"startTime":4150.708,"endTime":4153.968,"body":"discussing, you wanted to have"},{"startTime":4153.968,"endTime":4156.968,"body":"that one on one early, so maybe"},{"startTime":4153.968,"endTime":4156.968,"body":"the next day you schedule a one"},{"startTime":4156.968,"endTime":4159.338,"body":"on one, you make sure you're not"},{"startTime":4156.968,"endTime":4159.338,"body":"discussing this with other people."},{"startTime":4159.338,"endTime":4162.768,"body":"You wanna have this conversation with them"},{"startTime":4159.338,"endTime":4162.768,"body":"directly first mm-hmm  and then conflict"},{"startTime":4162.768,"endTime":4165.438,"body":"for humans is usually uncomfortable."},{"startTime":4165.468,"endTime":4167.838,"body":"You know, they, they might get"},{"startTime":4165.468,"endTime":4167.838,"body":"nervous in the conversation."},{"startTime":4167.838,"endTime":4171.108,"body":"So how would you think someone should"},{"startTime":4167.838,"endTime":4171.108,"body":"mentally prepare to walk into this?"},{"startTime":4171.168,"endTime":4172.758,"body":"I think that's an excellent question."},{"startTime":4172.788,"endTime":4175.048,"body":"First of all you know what"},{"startTime":4172.788,"endTime":4175.048,"body":"I've done in the past?"},{"startTime":4175.048,"endTime":4178.138,"body":"I don't even know if this is the right"},{"startTime":4175.048,"endTime":4178.138,"body":"thing to do, but it kind of sort of"},{"startTime":4178.138,"endTime":4182.963,"body":"works mm-hmm  when we were in person,"},{"startTime":4178.138,"endTime":4182.963,"body":"I would basically find a small room,"},{"startTime":4183.143,"endTime":4186.713,"body":"get a flip chart and I would write"},{"startTime":4183.143,"endTime":4186.713,"body":"in big letters what the problem is."},{"startTime":4186.773,"endTime":4188.693,"body":"Literally put the word problem."},{"startTime":4189.443,"endTime":4189.743,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":4189.748,"endTime":4193.793,"body":"Mm-hmm  and then alternate solutions"},{"startTime":4189.748,"endTime":4193.793,"body":"from that problem, just put them down,"},{"startTime":4193.793,"endTime":4195.923,"body":"including the one you want them to pursue."},{"startTime":4196.043,"endTime":4196.223,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4196.228,"endTime":4199.403,"body":"Plus the one that they're pushing"},{"startTime":4196.228,"endTime":4199.403,"body":"for, put them there, but also"},{"startTime":4199.403,"endTime":4200.753,"body":"don't limit it to those two."},{"startTime":4200.753,"endTime":4203.963,"body":"It shouldn't be binary putting"},{"startTime":4200.753,"endTime":4203.963,"body":"a couple of others, even if you"},{"startTime":4203.963,"endTime":4207.743,"body":"have none, just put something in"},{"startTime":4203.963,"endTime":4207.743,"body":"there so that it can be an up down."},{"startTime":4208.313,"endTime":4208.703,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4209.123,"endTime":4210.203,"body":"And then you bring them into the."},{"startTime":4211.268,"endTime":4213.278,"body":"and so you can still do this virtually."},{"startTime":4213.368,"endTime":4215.438,"body":"I just haven't had to, but you"},{"startTime":4213.368,"endTime":4215.438,"body":"can do it virtually, right."},{"startTime":4215.443,"endTime":4218.018,"body":"Just put a mural, Miro,"},{"startTime":4215.443,"endTime":4218.018,"body":"whatever it is that you use."},{"startTime":4218.018,"endTime":4218.288,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4218.408,"endTime":4219.728,"body":"Uh, notepad, it doesn't matter."},{"startTime":4220.268,"endTime":4223.418,"body":"So when they come into the room"},{"startTime":4220.268,"endTime":4223.418,"body":"say, so let's just look at the"},{"startTime":4223.423,"endTime":4225.038,"body":"problem we're trying to solve here."},{"startTime":4225.068,"endTime":4225.308,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":4226.148,"endTime":4228.668,"body":"So the focus is not that person anymore."},{"startTime":4228.848,"endTime":4233.198,"body":"It's the problem they're"},{"startTime":4228.848,"endTime":4233.198,"body":"coming in like this."},{"startTime":4234.968,"endTime":4235.242,"body":"What if the problem is them?"},{"startTime":4235.242,"endTime":4236.858,"body":"What if it is how they communicate?"},{"startTime":4237.578,"endTime":4243.088,"body":"So then put that down as the problem"},{"startTime":4237.578,"endTime":4243.088,"body":"is the way in which communication"},{"startTime":4243.178,"endTime":4244.558,"body":"is taking place currently."},{"startTime":4245.548,"endTime":4249.658,"body":"And if it's between you and that"},{"startTime":4245.548,"endTime":4249.658,"body":"person, I would say that I would say"},{"startTime":4249.658,"endTime":4255.718,"body":"the problem, the way the communication"},{"startTime":4249.658,"endTime":4255.718,"body":"is taking place between us, right?"},{"startTime":4255.808,"endTime":4258.208,"body":"Remember there's no, you still it's us."},{"startTime":4258.838,"endTime":4259.018,"body":"Now."},{"startTime":4259.018,"endTime":4260.338,"body":"The problem might be him."},{"startTime":4260.458,"endTime":4265.168,"body":"Her, you, you just, the you big arrow."},{"startTime":4265.168,"endTime":4271.798,"body":"They just that's you one of the, one of"},{"startTime":4265.168,"endTime":4271.798,"body":"the alternates there in the extreme case."},{"startTime":4272.368,"endTime":4275.638,"body":"Because either you leave or they"},{"startTime":4272.368,"endTime":4275.638,"body":"leave or encouraged to leave."},{"startTime":4275.698,"endTime":4275.878,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":4275.878,"endTime":4275.998,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":4275.998,"endTime":4277.138,"body":"I would put that on the wall."},{"startTime":4277.288,"endTime":4281.858,"body":"I would just say scrum master leaves,"},{"startTime":4277.288,"endTime":4281.858,"body":"developer or whatever role they're."},{"startTime":4282.458,"endTime":4282.548,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4282.548,"endTime":4284.258,"body":"You know, leaves the team mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":4284.648,"endTime":4285.998,"body":"I wouldn't use the word fired."},{"startTime":4286.028,"endTime":4288.578,"body":"I would just put that on there and"},{"startTime":4286.028,"endTime":4288.578,"body":"say these are possible outcomes."},{"startTime":4288.608,"endTime":4288.848,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4288.853,"endTime":4289.038,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4289.088,"endTime":4290.078,"body":"Let's talk about these."},{"startTime":4290.168,"endTime":4290.408,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4290.413,"endTime":4292.028,"body":"Mm-hmm  mm-hmm  yeah."},{"startTime":4292.128,"endTime":4294.528,"body":"At what point would you involve HR?"},{"startTime":4294.648,"endTime":4297.828,"body":"Would you though I've often"},{"startTime":4294.648,"endTime":4297.828,"body":"seen if HR gets involved, it"},{"startTime":4297.828,"endTime":4301.188,"body":"usually leads to the demise of"},{"startTime":4297.828,"endTime":4301.188,"body":"one of the people being employed."},{"startTime":4303.538,"endTime":4304.558,"body":"It depends."},{"startTime":4304.678,"endTime":4311.368,"body":"if HR is structured in a way where"},{"startTime":4304.678,"endTime":4311.368,"body":"they are beneficiary to the teams"},{"startTime":4311.588,"endTime":4316.628,"body":"I personally would only go to HR"},{"startTime":4311.588,"endTime":4316.628,"body":"regardless of what kind of HR I had"},{"startTime":4316.628,"endTime":4322.118,"body":"if I really had to, as a last resort,"},{"startTime":4316.628,"endTime":4322.118,"body":"assuming that the relationship has"},{"startTime":4322.118,"endTime":4325.958,"body":"turned toxic, like the person is"},{"startTime":4322.118,"endTime":4325.958,"body":"just called you names or for sure."},{"startTime":4326.198,"endTime":4327.098,"body":"Insulted you."},{"startTime":4327.098,"endTime":4328.718,"body":"I mean, any, anything like that?"},{"startTime":4329.048,"endTime":4330.788,"body":"Like there's no, there's no call for that."},{"startTime":4330.793,"endTime":4330.998,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4331.003,"endTime":4331.058,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4331.058,"endTime":4335.388,"body":"But, in the situation you've"},{"startTime":4331.058,"endTime":4335.388,"body":"just described it's he said, she"},{"startTime":4335.388,"endTime":4337.348,"body":"said you would only go to HR."},{"startTime":4337.918,"endTime":4343.868,"body":"If you expected HR is in the,"},{"startTime":4337.918,"endTime":4343.868,"body":"mindset where they're, they are"},{"startTime":4343.868,"endTime":4347.318,"body":"serving the organizations rather than"},{"startTime":4343.868,"endTime":4347.318,"body":"they're serving the executive team."},{"startTime":4347.348,"endTime":4347.408,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4347.458,"endTime":4352.918,"body":"Because if the HR role is serving the"},{"startTime":4347.458,"endTime":4352.918,"body":"executive team and you come to them with"},{"startTime":4352.918,"endTime":4356.908,"body":"a complaint of like this person isn't"},{"startTime":4352.918,"endTime":4356.908,"body":"working, this person is very combative."},{"startTime":4356.908,"endTime":4361.118,"body":"This person is very sexist, racist,"},{"startTime":4356.908,"endTime":4361.118,"body":"literally, whatever but you are"},{"startTime":4361.118,"endTime":4364.838,"body":"the person complaining you are"},{"startTime":4361.118,"endTime":4364.838,"body":"now the problem that's right."},{"startTime":4364.938,"endTime":4366.168,"body":"So they think, yeah, you're right."},{"startTime":4366.408,"endTime":4367.608,"body":"That happens all the time."},{"startTime":4367.788,"endTime":4368.088,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":4368.088,"endTime":4369.318,"body":"That happens all the time."},{"startTime":4369.323,"endTime":4372.218,"body":"That's why people have this"},{"startTime":4369.323,"endTime":4372.218,"body":"saying keep your head down."},{"startTime":4372.368,"endTime":4372.728,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4372.818,"endTime":4373.598,"body":"Keep your head down."},{"startTime":4373.598,"endTime":4374.528,"body":"Stay low don't."},{"startTime":4374.708,"endTime":4376.388,"body":"Cause any problems sense?"},{"startTime":4376.448,"endTime":4376.688,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4376.688,"endTime":4380.968,"body":"Well, again, going back to the"},{"startTime":4376.688,"endTime":4380.968,"body":"topics of the last podcast."},{"startTime":4381.418,"endTime":4383.428,"body":"I don't know if we said this"},{"startTime":4381.418,"endTime":4383.428,"body":"in the last podcast, but I know"},{"startTime":4383.428,"endTime":4384.598,"body":"we talk about it in the prep."},{"startTime":4384.868,"endTime":4391.648,"body":"When the HR rep of your company only works"},{"startTime":4384.868,"endTime":4391.648,"body":"for the exec team, basically the only tool"},{"startTime":4391.648,"endTime":4393.328,"body":"they have in their toolbox is a hammer."},{"startTime":4394.558,"endTime":4396.258,"body":"And , everything looks like a nail."},{"startTime":4396.268,"endTime":4400.048,"body":", I don't know how we're"},{"startTime":4396.268,"endTime":4400.048,"body":"hammering on this again to, Hey."},{"startTime":4400.258,"endTime":4400.798,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4401.158,"endTime":4402.448,"body":"It's topical, I guess."},{"startTime":4402.478,"endTime":4405.358,"body":"I guess conversation is"},{"startTime":4402.478,"endTime":4405.358,"body":"it's really not conflict."},{"startTime":4405.358,"endTime":4408.178,"body":"I mean, conflict in the"},{"startTime":4405.358,"endTime":4408.178,"body":"workplace often involves HR."},{"startTime":4408.208,"endTime":4408.358,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4408.358,"endTime":4412.048,"body":"But as like, as a Scrumer, if you like,"},{"startTime":4408.358,"endTime":4412.048,"body":"if you're like, well, I'm dealing with"},{"startTime":4412.053,"endTime":4416.838,"body":"these people and organizationally,"},{"startTime":4412.053,"endTime":4416.838,"body":"they're not being fair and they're, and"},{"startTime":4416.838,"endTime":4419.568,"body":"I see where they're I see where they are."},{"startTime":4420.468,"endTime":4421.968,"body":"I don't even wanna say mistreating."},{"startTime":4422.178,"endTime":4428.028,"body":"Like I I've been in development"},{"startTime":4422.178,"endTime":4428.028,"body":"long enough to see a lot of mess up"},{"startTime":4428.028,"endTime":4431.818,"body":"situations where HR probably should"},{"startTime":4428.028,"endTime":4431.818,"body":"have gotten involved like a male"},{"startTime":4432.258,"endTime":4437.058,"body":"development leads talking over female"},{"startTime":4432.258,"endTime":4437.058,"body":"team members, where they would never"},{"startTime":4437.058,"endTime":4439.668,"body":"talk that way to a male coworker."},{"startTime":4440.118,"endTime":4444.188,"body":"And it's like, how that's the disrespect"},{"startTime":4440.118,"endTime":4444.188,"body":"I was referring to in the hypothe earlier?"},{"startTime":4444.338,"endTime":4444.628,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4444.808,"endTime":4445.798,"body":"I've seen that quite a bit."},{"startTime":4446.158,"endTime":4446.788,"body":"Of course."},{"startTime":4446.898,"endTime":4449.538,"body":"Even being an outsider"},{"startTime":4446.898,"endTime":4449.538,"body":"in that conversation?"},{"startTime":4450.823,"endTime":4456.253,"body":"You were not even in the argument,"},{"startTime":4450.823,"endTime":4456.253,"body":"you just happened to be at the table"},{"startTime":4456.283,"endTime":4457.573,"body":"while the argument was happening."},{"startTime":4458.863,"endTime":4463.093,"body":"Should you serve as an outside perspective"},{"startTime":4458.863,"endTime":4463.093,"body":"being like, Hey, I saw this happen"},{"startTime":4466.453,"endTime":4470.533,"body":"now we're back to what, what I said is"},{"startTime":4466.453,"endTime":4470.533,"body":"like, now you are seen as a problem."},{"startTime":4470.533,"endTime":4471.043,"body":"Correct."},{"startTime":4471.043,"endTime":4472.063,"body":"So now, yeah."},{"startTime":4472.123,"endTime":4473.983,"body":"So how much of a risk taker are you?"},{"startTime":4473.988,"endTime":4474.933,"body":"Are you risk averse?"},{"startTime":4475.203,"endTime":4478.143,"body":"If you're risk averse, you're probably"},{"startTime":4475.203,"endTime":4478.143,"body":"gonna say, well, let them figure it out."},{"startTime":4478.173,"endTime":4478.563,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4478.563,"endTime":4479.373,"body":"It doesn't involve me."},{"startTime":4479.463,"endTime":4479.733,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4480.203,"endTime":4483.423,"body":"If, if you are not, you might"},{"startTime":4480.203,"endTime":4483.423,"body":"say, well, that's not right."},{"startTime":4483.603,"endTime":4483.873,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4483.878,"endTime":4487.683,"body":"You know, and, and you would"},{"startTime":4483.878,"endTime":4487.683,"body":"take it to HR and yes, you're"},{"startTime":4487.683,"endTime":4489.243,"body":"taking the risk at that point."},{"startTime":4491.013,"endTime":4491.193,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4491.193,"endTime":4493.563,"body":"But you depends on what, what"},{"startTime":4491.193,"endTime":4493.563,"body":"your moral fiber tells you."},{"startTime":4493.623,"endTime":4493.743,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4493.743,"endTime":4497.803,"body":"But I think if you've, if you've allowed"},{"startTime":4493.743,"endTime":4497.803,"body":"it to go to that level where you're"},{"startTime":4497.808,"endTime":4502.903,"body":"bringing somebody outside in whoa,"},{"startTime":4497.808,"endTime":4502.903,"body":"boy, this is gonna be controversial."},{"startTime":4503.053,"endTime":4506.823,"body":"You've given up your ability to"},{"startTime":4503.053,"endTime":4506.823,"body":"influence the situation, your ability"},{"startTime":4506.823,"endTime":4511.293,"body":"to influence that situation is in the"},{"startTime":4506.823,"endTime":4511.293,"body":"moment you should be backing up the,"},{"startTime":4511.503,"endTime":4516.253,"body":"the, the argument that you are hearing"},{"startTime":4511.503,"endTime":4516.253,"body":"to say, Hey, wait a minute, you didn't"},{"startTime":4516.253,"endTime":4518.113,"body":"seriously consider this person's opinion."},{"startTime":4518.383,"endTime":4519.463,"body":"Like, let's talk about that for a."},{"startTime":4520.393,"endTime":4523.453,"body":"and that is where you can make"},{"startTime":4520.393,"endTime":4523.453,"body":"that is where you can have"},{"startTime":4523.453,"endTime":4525.133,"body":"influence in the conversation."},{"startTime":4525.373,"endTime":4527.593,"body":"It's not after the fact with the HR part."},{"startTime":4527.593,"endTime":4529.573,"body":"Cause again, that's a"},{"startTime":4527.593,"endTime":4529.573,"body":"complaint more than HR."},{"startTime":4529.643,"endTime":4536.023,"body":"Even if we say that the HR person"},{"startTime":4529.643,"endTime":4536.023,"body":"is beneficial to the teams, they"},{"startTime":4536.023,"endTime":4542.803,"body":"are actively trying to help reduce"},{"startTime":4536.023,"endTime":4542.803,"body":"conflict and, and empower the"},{"startTime":4542.803,"endTime":4544.273,"body":"teams to solve their own problems."},{"startTime":4544.333,"endTime":4548.503,"body":"Even if they are doing that, you're"},{"startTime":4544.333,"endTime":4548.503,"body":"still dealing with a problem after the"},{"startTime":4548.503,"endTime":4552.283,"body":"fact where someone has to come in and"},{"startTime":4548.503,"endTime":4552.283,"body":"they don't know which side to believe"},{"startTime":4552.283,"endTime":4557.473,"body":"in like somewhere between what M says"},{"startTime":4552.283,"endTime":4557.473,"body":"and what Jessica says is the truth."},{"startTime":4557.553,"endTime":4559.143,"body":"That's not always the case."},{"startTime":4559.143,"endTime":4559.923,"body":"It's yeah."},{"startTime":4559.923,"endTime":4563.463,"body":"To your point, the, the, the"},{"startTime":4559.923,"endTime":4563.463,"body":"coaching moment is fleeting, right?"},{"startTime":4563.703,"endTime":4563.943,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4563.948,"endTime":4564.393,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4564.393,"endTime":4564.603,"body":"It's right there."},{"startTime":4564.603,"endTime":4566.913,"body":"And you've gotta hit it right every time."},{"startTime":4567.093,"endTime":4572.228,"body":"But, but I would say a majority of team"},{"startTime":4567.093,"endTime":4572.228,"body":"would remember, again, I know we brought"},{"startTime":4572.228,"endTime":4577.033,"body":"this up to say like,  does this scrum"},{"startTime":4572.228,"endTime":4577.033,"body":"master have to always be the, the bigger"},{"startTime":4577.033,"endTime":4579.283,"body":"person in the room to be like, Hey, right."},{"startTime":4579.313,"endTime":4581.123,"body":"Let's all try to like yeah."},{"startTime":4581.213,"endTime":4582.583,"body":"Uh, spoiler."},{"startTime":4582.983,"endTime":4583.703,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":4583.883,"endTime":4588.203,"body":"BEC because everyone in the room"},{"startTime":4583.883,"endTime":4588.203,"body":"will always remember the person who"},{"startTime":4588.203,"endTime":4592.223,"body":"stopped the meeting to say, Hey,"},{"startTime":4588.203,"endTime":4592.223,"body":"like I understand you're saying we"},{"startTime":4592.228,"endTime":4593.903,"body":"don't need to think about this, but."},{"startTime":4594.503,"endTime":4596.483,"body":"Do we really not need to think about it."},{"startTime":4596.753,"endTime":4598.703,"body":"Do you want to consider"},{"startTime":4596.753,"endTime":4598.703,"body":"this person's opinion?"},{"startTime":4598.913,"endTime":4600.923,"body":"Like, and actually talk about it again?"},{"startTime":4601.223,"endTime":4605.093,"body":"Cause everyone will remember like,"},{"startTime":4601.223,"endTime":4605.093,"body":"oh, Hey, Jessica said when om"},{"startTime":4605.093,"endTime":4608.698,"body":"brought up, Hey, maybe we shouldn't"},{"startTime":4605.093,"endTime":4608.698,"body":"be doing this, and Brian, who's a"},{"startTime":4608.698,"endTime":4611.788,"body":"development manager or whatever shot"},{"startTime":4608.698,"endTime":4611.788,"body":"down ah, I don't wanna talk about it."},{"startTime":4611.788,"endTime":4613.078,"body":"Well, I've made this decision."},{"startTime":4613.078,"endTime":4614.098,"body":"We don't wanna, whatever."},{"startTime":4614.098,"endTime":4615.088,"body":"Well, let's move on."},{"startTime":4615.268,"endTime":4616.048,"body":"It's not important."},{"startTime":4616.048,"endTime":4617.158,"body":"I don't care about this."},{"startTime":4617.578,"endTime":4621.148,"body":"And, and Jessica's like, mm,"},{"startTime":4617.578,"endTime":4621.148,"body":"are you really sure you've"},{"startTime":4621.148,"endTime":4622.528,"body":"considered all the options here?"},{"startTime":4623.438,"endTime":4625.833,"body":"Let's just five minutes."},{"startTime":4625.953,"endTime":4627.843,"body":"I'm I'm, I'll put five"},{"startTime":4625.953,"endTime":4627.843,"body":"minutes on my watch."},{"startTime":4628.563,"endTime":4631.443,"body":"We'll just talk about it for five minutes"},{"startTime":4628.563,"endTime":4631.443,"body":"just to make sure we've talked about it."},{"startTime":4631.833,"endTime":4636.933,"body":"I mean, you're already, you're already"},{"startTime":4631.833,"endTime":4636.933,"body":"interceding in a contentious discussion."},{"startTime":4637.083,"endTime":4638.343,"body":"Yeah, for certain."},{"startTime":4638.343,"endTime":4638.433,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":4640.323,"endTime":4644.533,"body":"But again, it goes back to the,"},{"startTime":4640.323,"endTime":4644.533,"body":"the reason you're using scrum"},{"startTime":4644.533,"endTime":4647.563,"body":"is like, there's courage as one"},{"startTime":4644.533,"endTime":4647.563,"body":"of the, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":4647.563,"endTime":4650.773,"body":"The courage to speak up as one"},{"startTime":4647.563,"endTime":4650.773,"body":"of the fundamentals, what they"},{"startTime":4650.773,"endTime":4652.003,"body":"got principles, fundamentals."},{"startTime":4652.063,"endTime":4652.303,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":4652.643,"endTime":4658.813,"body":"It is to say, Hey look are you sure that"},{"startTime":4652.643,"endTime":4658.813,"body":"this doesn't need to be discussed further?"},{"startTime":4659.053,"endTime":4660.013,"body":"Are you really sure?"},{"startTime":4660.688,"endTime":4664.888,"body":"So SCSO should lead by example"},{"startTime":4660.688,"endTime":4664.888,"body":"because the whole team is watching."},{"startTime":4665.008,"endTime":4666.688,"body":"You still might get shot down."},{"startTime":4666.688,"endTime":4667.078,"body":"You might."},{"startTime":4667.378,"endTime":4667.828,"body":"That's great."},{"startTime":4668.278,"endTime":4671.468,"body":"You're talking to the right guy"},{"startTime":4668.278,"endTime":4671.468,"body":"when it comes to losing arguments."},{"startTime":4672.058,"endTime":4676.158,"body":"But you've brought them up and"},{"startTime":4672.058,"endTime":4676.158,"body":"reiterated and everybody on the teams."},{"startTime":4676.818,"endTime":4680.958,"body":"It's gonna be in the front of their"},{"startTime":4676.818,"endTime":4680.958,"body":"brain that you brought it back up to"},{"startTime":4680.958,"endTime":4682.668,"body":"make sure that we talked about it."},{"startTime":4682.718,"endTime":4685.748,"body":"the funny thing about this is jessica"},{"startTime":4682.718,"endTime":4685.748,"body":"and I have worked with someone in"},{"startTime":4685.748,"endTime":4689.438,"body":"the past where he would be the one to"},{"startTime":4685.748,"endTime":4689.438,"body":"challenge the status quo to be like,"},{"startTime":4689.438,"endTime":4690.668,"body":"Hey, have you really thought about this?"},{"startTime":4690.673,"endTime":4691.118,"body":"Whatever."},{"startTime":4691.178,"endTime":4694.408,"body":"And the development manager or whatever"},{"startTime":4691.178,"endTime":4694.408,"body":"the time would be like, oh yeah, I did."},{"startTime":4694.558,"endTime":4696.538,"body":"And I don't care and I"},{"startTime":4694.558,"endTime":4696.538,"body":"don't wanna do whatever."},{"startTime":4696.838,"endTime":4699.303,"body":"And then he shut him down."},{"startTime":4699.303,"endTime":4699.309,"body":"Yeah, it would shut him down."},{"startTime":4699.314,"endTime":4703.653,"body":"And then he would bring up later,"},{"startTime":4699.314,"endTime":4703.653,"body":"like you made this decision and then"},{"startTime":4703.653,"endTime":4705.453,"body":"we had to deal with this afterwards."},{"startTime":4705.783,"endTime":4708.183,"body":"And then the development manager,"},{"startTime":4705.783,"endTime":4708.183,"body":"whoever made the decision"},{"startTime":4708.183,"endTime":4709.823,"body":"would say I never said that."},{"startTime":4710.198,"endTime":4714.278,"body":"And like, I remember, like there were"},{"startTime":4710.198,"endTime":4714.278,"body":"many, many situations where the, person"},{"startTime":4714.278,"endTime":4717.998,"body":"that we worked with before would, he'd"},{"startTime":4714.278,"endTime":4717.998,"body":"be like, what are you talking about?"},{"startTime":4718.298,"endTime":4723.068,"body":"You totally made, like we wrote in the"},{"startTime":4718.298,"endTime":4723.068,"body":"story that we weren't gonna go down this"},{"startTime":4723.068,"endTime":4725.738,"body":"road, because you were assuming the risk."},{"startTime":4726.068,"endTime":4729.978,"body":"And we wrote in, because you we wrote"},{"startTime":4726.068,"endTime":4729.978,"body":"in the comments your ticket or whatever,"},{"startTime":4729.978,"endTime":4734.048,"body":"like we wrote in the comments we're not"},{"startTime":4729.978,"endTime":4734.048,"body":"going to explore the risks of not doing"},{"startTime":4734.048,"endTime":4739.218,"body":"something because in the meeting you"},{"startTime":4734.048,"endTime":4739.218,"body":"said, don't don't go down this path."},{"startTime":4739.528,"endTime":4744.593,"body":"And I can think of lots of discussions"},{"startTime":4739.528,"endTime":4744.593,"body":"where I've been on the losing side of"},{"startTime":4744.598,"endTime":4746.873,"body":"this and called it back into question."},{"startTime":4746.873,"endTime":4749.723,"body":"And the, the, the narcissist on"},{"startTime":4746.873,"endTime":4749.723,"body":"the other side of the table has"},{"startTime":4749.723,"endTime":4750.913,"body":"still been I never said that."},{"startTime":4751.123,"endTime":4751.453,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4752.263,"endTime":4752.923,"body":"Must be you."},{"startTime":4753.253,"endTime":4753.523,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4753.523,"endTime":4754.243,"body":"Must be you."},{"startTime":4754.423,"endTime":4755.413,"body":"You're all crazy."},{"startTime":4755.623,"endTime":4758.143,"body":"And since, so that's"},{"startTime":4755.623,"endTime":4758.143,"body":"legitimate conflict there."},{"startTime":4758.143,"endTime":4759.013,"body":"That's a certainly is."},{"startTime":4759.018,"endTime":4759.613,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":4759.613,"endTime":4759.943,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4760.033,"endTime":4763.513,"body":"Well, I mean like there's conflict"},{"startTime":4760.033,"endTime":4763.513,"body":"resolution and then there's dealing"},{"startTime":4763.513,"endTime":4767.203,"body":"with narcissists, AKA sociopaths"},{"startTime":4763.513,"endTime":4767.203,"body":"should be a podcast on its own."},{"startTime":4767.203,"endTime":4770.683,"body":"That should be, gosh, you were talking"},{"startTime":4767.203,"endTime":4770.683,"body":"about that earlier, before we went"},{"startTime":4770.683,"endTime":4772.213,"body":"on air dealing with sociopaths."},{"startTime":4772.253,"endTime":4772.733,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":4772.903,"endTime":4773.353,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4773.563,"endTime":4777.133,"body":"Because realistically, you don't wanna"},{"startTime":4773.563,"endTime":4777.133,"body":"go into conflict with those people."},{"startTime":4777.133,"endTime":4778.993,"body":"It's never going to turn out."},{"startTime":4778.993,"endTime":4779.743,"body":"Well, no, you don't."},{"startTime":4779.743,"endTime":4783.643,"body":"Well, a narcissist, well, the other"},{"startTime":4779.743,"endTime":4783.643,"body":"thing about you never see it's"},{"startTime":4783.643,"endTime":4785.063,"body":"your fault or their fault either."},{"startTime":4786.238,"endTime":4789.118,"body":"Separate dealing with sociopaths"},{"startTime":4786.238,"endTime":4789.118,"body":"from dealing with narcissists,"},{"startTime":4789.118,"endTime":4793.138,"body":"because the sociopaths that"},{"startTime":4789.118,"endTime":4793.138,"body":"I've worked with that's right."},{"startTime":4793.138,"endTime":4797.128,"body":"I said that the sociopaths that"},{"startTime":4793.138,"endTime":4797.128,"body":"I've worked with have organized"},{"startTime":4798.058,"endTime":4800.638,"body":"the organization around them."},{"startTime":4800.938,"endTime":4805.588,"body":"They've kind of firewalled themselves"},{"startTime":4800.938,"endTime":4805.588,"body":"in the organization where they can"},{"startTime":4805.588,"endTime":4809.993,"body":"say things without evidence and they"},{"startTime":4805.588,"endTime":4809.993,"body":"can be insulated where it doesn't"},{"startTime":4809.993,"endTime":4811.373,"body":"hurt them in the organization."},{"startTime":4811.613,"endTime":4817.108,"body":"So like for example, like E evidence"},{"startTime":4811.613,"endTime":4817.108,"body":"based management doesn't hurt them"},{"startTime":4817.108,"endTime":4823.148,"body":"because they've elevated themselves"},{"startTime":4817.108,"endTime":4823.148,"body":"above like the product manager cycle to"},{"startTime":4823.153,"endTime":4827.418,"body":"where the executives or wherever they"},{"startTime":4823.153,"endTime":4827.418,"body":"interact with, they don't interact on"},{"startTime":4827.418,"endTime":4829.548,"body":"a peer level with the product managers."},{"startTime":4829.818,"endTime":4832.713,"body":"They only interact with"},{"startTime":4829.818,"endTime":4832.713,"body":"the executive level."},{"startTime":4832.893,"endTime":4838.293,"body":"So they can say like, oh, well, I"},{"startTime":4832.893,"endTime":4838.293,"body":"mean, yes, we had some production"},{"startTime":4838.293,"endTime":4840.333,"body":"outages, but, it's not my fault."},{"startTime":4840.543,"endTime":4844.173,"body":"It's those QA people, they"},{"startTime":4840.543,"endTime":4844.173,"body":"didn't test enough or whatever."},{"startTime":4844.263,"endTime":4847.693,"body":"And if you go to talk to the product,"},{"startTime":4844.263,"endTime":4847.693,"body":"people the product people have a"},{"startTime":4847.693,"endTime":4849.103,"body":"completely different perspective."},{"startTime":4849.103,"endTime":4852.643,"body":"They'll be like, well, we were doing a"},{"startTime":4849.103,"endTime":4852.643,"body":"bunch of risky stuff cuz the executives"},{"startTime":4852.643,"endTime":4856.363,"body":"were pushing us and said that we had"},{"startTime":4852.643,"endTime":4856.363,"body":"to get stuff done by a certain date."},{"startTime":4856.363,"endTime":4858.773,"body":"And they wouldn't bend on the date."},{"startTime":4858.803,"endTime":4861.743,"body":"And uh, we did things and they were"},{"startTime":4858.803,"endTime":4861.743,"body":"risky and they crashed product."},{"startTime":4862.478,"endTime":4864.608,"body":"because they just told us"},{"startTime":4862.478,"endTime":4864.608,"body":"this is what we were doing."},{"startTime":4864.608,"endTime":4865.688,"body":"And there was no pushback."},{"startTime":4865.898,"endTime":4867.488,"body":"And they just told us we had to do things."},{"startTime":4868.078,"endTime":4873.518,"body":"And regardless of us missing our"},{"startTime":4868.078,"endTime":4873.518,"body":"tests or us failing certain tests to"},{"startTime":4873.518,"endTime":4876.158,"body":"go to production or whatever, like"},{"startTime":4873.518,"endTime":4876.158,"body":"if you're doing TDD or something"},{"startTime":4876.158,"endTime":4880.778,"body":"like that, I'm like, oh, well, 75%"},{"startTime":4876.158,"endTime":4880.778,"body":"of our tests passed, but 25% failed."},{"startTime":4880.778,"endTime":4885.128,"body":"And the 25% that failed is like critical"},{"startTime":4880.778,"endTime":4885.128,"body":"stuff or whatever, but the VPs or"},{"startTime":4885.128,"endTime":4889.238,"body":"whatever that promised dates said to"},{"startTime":4885.128,"endTime":4889.238,"body":"push it out anyway like that'll get"},{"startTime":4889.238,"endTime":4893.828,"body":"left out of the conversation of course"},{"startTime":4889.238,"endTime":4893.828,"body":"at the level you're right, right."},{"startTime":4893.828,"endTime":4896.528,"body":"So narcissist sociopaths or whatever."},{"startTime":4896.738,"endTime":4901.478,"body":"They have a way of insulating the"},{"startTime":4896.738,"endTime":4901.478,"body":"conversations to different levels of the"},{"startTime":4901.483,"endTime":4906.378,"body":"organization where they are protected"},{"startTime":4901.483,"endTime":4906.378,"body":"and they can, cast blame something."},{"startTime":4906.378,"endTime":4907.498,"body":"So that's terrify platform."},{"startTime":4907.528,"endTime":4908.138,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":4908.143,"endTime":4911.148,"body":"And if you identify that,"},{"startTime":4908.143,"endTime":4911.148,"body":"what do you do leave?"},{"startTime":4911.418,"endTime":4916.298,"body":"Oh, if you can identify it and"},{"startTime":4911.418,"endTime":4916.298,"body":"show evidence to different."},{"startTime":4916.763,"endTime":4920.563,"body":"Pieces of the organization you've already"},{"startTime":4916.763,"endTime":4920.563,"body":"figured out a way to work around it."},{"startTime":4920.563,"endTime":4924.013,"body":"You, you usually sociopaths"},{"startTime":4920.563,"endTime":4924.013,"body":"are really good at organizing a"},{"startTime":4924.018,"endTime":4925.723,"body":"whole system around themselves."},{"startTime":4925.963,"endTime":4928.833,"body":"So whatever evidence you show"},{"startTime":4925.963,"endTime":4928.833,"body":"they'll have a counter to it."},{"startTime":4929.163,"endTime":4933.993,"body":"They'll this goes back to what we talked"},{"startTime":4929.163,"endTime":4933.993,"body":"about this, oh, I don't like on one of"},{"startTime":4933.993,"endTime":4937.703,"body":"the first podcasts you were on  where I"},{"startTime":4933.993,"endTime":4937.703,"body":"was talking about, if I'm an executive"},{"startTime":4938.063,"endTime":4945.683,"body":"and I make a decision based on logical,"},{"startTime":4938.063,"endTime":4945.683,"body":"empirical evidence, that's one thing."},{"startTime":4946.283,"endTime":4953.393,"body":"But if you have me make a decision"},{"startTime":4946.283,"endTime":4953.393,"body":"based on my gut, feel my emotional feel."},{"startTime":4954.683,"endTime":4960.413,"body":"So now I have to make a decision based on"},{"startTime":4954.683,"endTime":4960.413,"body":"emotional feel versus empirical evidence,"},{"startTime":4960.743,"endTime":4969.383,"body":"provable evidence which one wins out like"},{"startTime":4960.743,"endTime":4969.383,"body":"logical evidence, data driven evidence,"},{"startTime":4969.653,"endTime":4971.573,"body":"or the way I feel about something."},{"startTime":4971.813,"endTime":4975.853,"body":"So again, like going back to just the"},{"startTime":4971.813,"endTime":4975.853,"body":"way I came up in development teams"},{"startTime":4976.153,"endTime":4979.303,"body":"the, the sociopaths on development"},{"startTime":4976.153,"endTime":4979.303,"body":"teams are very good at exploiting"},{"startTime":4979.633,"endTime":4982.063,"body":"your emotion based decisions."},{"startTime":4982.543,"endTime":4982.573,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":4982.633,"endTime":4987.073,"body":"And negating any, literally any."},{"startTime":4987.723,"endTime":4990.883,"body":"logical evidence based"},{"startTime":4987.723,"endTime":4990.883,"body":"management techniques."},{"startTime":4990.883,"endTime":4991.783,"body":"They're very good at that."},{"startTime":4992.173,"endTime":4992.443,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":4992.473,"endTime":4994.703,"body":"Some take it to an art"},{"startTime":4992.473,"endTime":4994.703,"body":"form as they say, you know?"},{"startTime":4994.703,"endTime":4994.863,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4994.903,"endTime":4996.913,"body":"I mean, you gotta admire them for that."},{"startTime":4996.913,"endTime":4996.973,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4997.523,"endTime":4998.743,"body":"Mm mm-hmm  mm-hmm"},{"startTime":4999.563,"endTime":5003.123,"body":"and to come full circle with our"},{"startTime":4999.563,"endTime":5003.123,"body":"conflict conversation, I like it."},{"startTime":5003.403,"endTime":5009.253,"body":"When in conversation of conflict,"},{"startTime":5003.403,"endTime":5009.253,"body":"it's probably a good idea to remove"},{"startTime":5010.003,"endTime":5011.863,"body":"feelings from the conversation."},{"startTime":5011.863,"endTime":5013.153,"body":"I feel statements."},{"startTime":5013.153,"endTime":5015.883,"body":"So maybe just stick to the"},{"startTime":5013.153,"endTime":5015.883,"body":"facts of the situation."},{"startTime":5015.883,"endTime":5016.363,"body":"Absolutely agree."},{"startTime":5016.363,"endTime":5017.803,"body":"You can't argue facts."},{"startTime":5017.808,"endTime":5018.063,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":5018.653,"endTime":5018.943,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":5019.033,"endTime":5020.143,"body":"Stick to the problem."},{"startTime":5020.333,"endTime":5021.103,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":5021.433,"endTime":5022.663,"body":"Keep emotions out."},{"startTime":5022.663,"endTime":5023.023,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":5024.013,"endTime":5024.283,"body":"Well."},{"startTime":5027.013,"endTime":5027.133,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":5027.133,"endTime":5029.073,"body":"Well, in, in, in my particular case"},{"startTime":5027.133,"endTime":5029.073,"body":"in that organization, the technology"},{"startTime":5029.073,"endTime":5032.163,"body":"people were very good at getting in"},{"startTime":5029.073,"endTime":5032.163,"body":"front of the product, people to the"},{"startTime":5032.163,"endTime":5035.573,"body":"organization, the product people really"},{"startTime":5032.163,"endTime":5035.573,"body":"never set a chance cuz , it was a"},{"startTime":5035.578,"endTime":5039.803,"body":"technology organization that was trying"},{"startTime":5035.578,"endTime":5039.803,"body":"to be a product led organization."},{"startTime":5040.253,"endTime":5044.423,"body":"So the technology people were all"},{"startTime":5040.253,"endTime":5044.423,"body":"always in front of the product,"},{"startTime":5044.423,"endTime":5048.383,"body":"people mm-hmm,  the product people"},{"startTime":5044.423,"endTime":5048.383,"body":"were trying to break in and become"},{"startTime":5048.703,"endTime":5050.833,"body":"at the forefront of the technology."},{"startTime":5050.833,"endTime":5054.463,"body":"But it wasn't that way when"},{"startTime":5050.833,"endTime":5054.463,"body":"I was with that organization,"},{"startTime":5054.673,"endTime":5061.083,"body":"sometimes it it's just not possible"},{"startTime":5054.673,"endTime":5061.083,"body":"depending on the personalities"},{"startTime":5061.083,"endTime":5062.433,"body":"involved in the organization."},{"startTime":5062.543,"endTime":5063.473,"body":"I think that's valid."},{"startTime":5063.503,"endTime":5063.773,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":5063.778,"endTime":5066.953,"body":"And that's something that"},{"startTime":5063.778,"endTime":5066.953,"body":"you have to learn over time."},{"startTime":5066.953,"endTime":5071.903,"body":"I mean, oh, valid wisdom and also"},{"startTime":5066.953,"endTime":5071.903,"body":"terrible, like valid, but terrible."},{"startTime":5072.123,"endTime":5076.683,"body":"It's you like running a successful"},{"startTime":5072.123,"endTime":5076.683,"body":"business under that model."},{"startTime":5077.133,"endTime":5078.003,"body":"How are you gonna do that?"},{"startTime":5078.933,"endTime":5079.473,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":5079.563,"endTime":5080.973,"body":"You don't care about evidence."},{"startTime":5080.973,"endTime":5083.403,"body":"You don't care about how many"},{"startTime":5080.973,"endTime":5083.403,"body":"you're basically saying I don't"},{"startTime":5083.403,"endTime":5086.973,"body":"care about how much I spend to"},{"startTime":5083.403,"endTime":5086.973,"body":"produce a product versus how much"},{"startTime":5086.973,"endTime":5088.503,"body":"revenue, the product gains for me."},{"startTime":5088.863,"endTime":5090.483,"body":"You that's basically what you're saying."},{"startTime":5090.843,"endTime":5091.563,"body":"I think you don't care."},{"startTime":5091.568,"endTime":5093.363,"body":"Describe some major car manufacturers."},{"startTime":5094.383,"endTime":5098.163,"body":"You're not wrong, but I mean"},{"startTime":5094.383,"endTime":5098.163,"body":"like, like how long can you"},{"startTime":5098.163,"endTime":5099.573,"body":"run the business with that?"},{"startTime":5099.573,"endTime":5101.703,"body":"Like, oh, I feel like we're doing great."},{"startTime":5101.973,"endTime":5104.613,"body":"I feel we're gonna be awesome next year."},{"startTime":5104.618,"endTime":5107.283,"body":"Mm-hmm  until like, there's"},{"startTime":5104.618,"endTime":5107.283,"body":"literally no money left."},{"startTime":5108.933,"endTime":5111.213,"body":"Yeah, no, that's not a"},{"startTime":5108.933,"endTime":5111.213,"body":"long-term strategy for sure."},{"startTime":5111.633,"endTime":5111.843,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":5111.843,"endTime":5113.313,"body":"Hope is not a long-term strategy."},{"startTime":5113.313,"endTime":5114.213,"body":"No, that's true."},{"startTime":5115.953,"endTime":5116.313,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":5116.493,"endTime":5116.733,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":5116.788,"endTime":5117.148,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":5117.148,"endTime":5120.958,"body":"Well, to wrap conflict up, I'm trying"},{"startTime":5117.148,"endTime":5120.958,"body":"to think about what I heard today."},{"startTime":5120.963,"endTime":5126.718,"body":"So one, if you're in the"},{"startTime":5120.963,"endTime":5126.718,"body":"conversation, encourage a break."},{"startTime":5127.018,"endTime":5127.258,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":5127.258,"endTime":5127.918,"body":"I liked that."},{"startTime":5127.918,"endTime":5129.148,"body":"I thought that was, that was good."},{"startTime":5129.148,"endTime":5131.518,"body":"So maybe walk outside,"},{"startTime":5129.148,"endTime":5131.518,"body":"everyone take a break, right?"},{"startTime":5131.608,"endTime":5133.768,"body":"Uh, you can say something like, mm let's."},{"startTime":5133.768,"endTime":5136.768,"body":"Take this offline and continue"},{"startTime":5133.768,"endTime":5136.768,"body":"the conversation another time."},{"startTime":5137.378,"endTime":5138.848,"body":"So those were good points."},{"startTime":5138.908,"endTime":5142.418,"body":"We also mentioned that after the"},{"startTime":5138.908,"endTime":5142.418,"body":"conversation, we can schedule"},{"startTime":5142.418,"endTime":5145.298,"body":"a one on one mm-hmm  yeah."},{"startTime":5145.303,"endTime":5148.358,"body":"In that conversation,"},{"startTime":5145.303,"endTime":5148.358,"body":"we avoid use statements."},{"startTime":5148.668,"endTime":5150.918,"body":"We stick to facts, avoid emotion."},{"startTime":5150.923,"endTime":5152.718,"body":"Mm-hmm  focus on the problem at hand."},{"startTime":5153.168,"endTime":5153.558,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":5153.558,"endTime":5156.168,"body":"And then probably, and we didn't"},{"startTime":5153.558,"endTime":5156.168,"body":"mention this, but probably focus"},{"startTime":5156.168,"endTime":5157.938,"body":"on some action steps afterward."},{"startTime":5158.838,"endTime":5159.588,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":5159.588,"endTime":5163.418,"body":"And I think that the other thing is we"},{"startTime":5159.588,"endTime":5163.418,"body":"said just make sure the problem's visible."},{"startTime":5164.438,"endTime":5168.848,"body":"Cause if you don't have anything to focus"},{"startTime":5164.438,"endTime":5168.848,"body":"your eyes and the other person's eyes"},{"startTime":5168.853,"endTime":5171.128,"body":"on, then they're focused on one another."},{"startTime":5171.488,"endTime":5171.848,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":5171.848,"endTime":5173.648,"body":"And you then forget about the problem."},{"startTime":5174.068,"endTime":5176.378,"body":"You start to get into"},{"startTime":5174.068,"endTime":5176.378,"body":"personalities at that point."},{"startTime":5176.528,"endTime":5177.698,"body":"Mm-hmm  yeah."},{"startTime":5177.698,"endTime":5180.908,"body":"And one thing I wish we went"},{"startTime":5177.698,"endTime":5180.908,"body":"into and it might be too late."},{"startTime":5181.118,"endTime":5183.368,"body":"What happens when someone"},{"startTime":5181.118,"endTime":5183.368,"body":"just starts digging out that"},{"startTime":5183.368,"endTime":5184.928,"body":"personality of the other person."},{"startTime":5185.558,"endTime":5185.678,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":5185.678,"endTime":5187.448,"body":"We just keep orienting"},{"startTime":5185.678,"endTime":5187.448,"body":"them to the problem."},{"startTime":5187.448,"endTime":5192.283,"body":"Redirect, if you have it displayed right,"},{"startTime":5187.448,"endTime":5192.283,"body":"then you could say, can we agree that"},{"startTime":5192.283,"endTime":5193.873,"body":"this is the problem we're trying to solve?"},{"startTime":5193.878,"endTime":5195.833,"body":"Forget about the solutioning"},{"startTime":5193.878,"endTime":5195.833,"body":"part mm-hmm  mm-hmm  yeah."},{"startTime":5195.853,"endTime":5196.963,"body":"Can we agree on the problem?"},{"startTime":5197.203,"endTime":5197.653,"body":"That's good."},{"startTime":5197.803,"endTime":5197.923,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":5197.923,"endTime":5200.653,"body":"So you start off the bat, even if"},{"startTime":5197.923,"endTime":5200.653,"body":"you agree on the problem and nothing"},{"startTime":5200.658,"endTime":5204.613,"body":"else, you've started off by agreeing"},{"startTime":5200.658,"endTime":5204.613,"body":"with them on something mm-hmm  and"},{"startTime":5204.613,"endTime":5209.743,"body":"that's always a good, it's always a"},{"startTime":5204.613,"endTime":5209.743,"body":"good entry into solving the problem"},{"startTime":5209.743,"endTime":5214.333,"body":"because it's basically starting with"},{"startTime":5209.743,"endTime":5214.333,"body":"ground that you've given mm-hmm  they"},{"startTime":5214.333,"endTime":5216.073,"body":"feel you've given some ground, right."},{"startTime":5216.703,"endTime":5220.783,"body":"And that's always a good way to negotiate"},{"startTime":5216.703,"endTime":5220.783,"body":"politicians do this all the time,"},{"startTime":5220.783,"endTime":5225.763,"body":"especially when they negotiate global,"},{"startTime":5220.783,"endTime":5225.763,"body":"with other countries basically, right?"},{"startTime":5225.853,"endTime":5229.423,"body":"Mm-hmm  they always go into"},{"startTime":5225.853,"endTime":5229.423,"body":"it with something to give."},{"startTime":5229.453,"endTime":5232.418,"body":"They know they're gonna have to"},{"startTime":5229.453,"endTime":5232.418,"body":"yield a little and some people"},{"startTime":5232.423,"endTime":5233.618,"body":"are very effective at that."},{"startTime":5233.648,"endTime":5237.188,"body":"They'll just go in and say right off"},{"startTime":5233.648,"endTime":5237.188,"body":"the bat, this is all I can give you."},{"startTime":5237.488,"endTime":5237.728,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":5238.088,"endTime":5238.388,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":5238.393,"endTime":5240.968,"body":"Mm-hmm  so right off the bat,"},{"startTime":5238.393,"endTime":5240.968,"body":"if I come in and say, Brian,"},{"startTime":5241.658,"endTime":5242.978,"body":"I let's solve this problem."},{"startTime":5243.188,"endTime":5245.498,"body":"I'm willing to give you this,"},{"startTime":5243.188,"endTime":5245.498,"body":"but that's all I can give you."},{"startTime":5245.978,"endTime":5247.448,"body":"He's gotta feel good about that."},{"startTime":5247.778,"endTime":5247.868,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":5248.288,"endTime":5249.938,"body":"Cause he hasn't done anything to get that."},{"startTime":5250.138,"endTime":5252.158,"body":"I'm I'm just giving that I' surrendering."},{"startTime":5252.338,"endTime":5252.668,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":5253.268,"endTime":5254.108,"body":"I saw Hamilton."},{"startTime":5254.198,"endTime":5257.748,"body":"I know you're talking about . That's good."},{"startTime":5258.498,"endTime":5260.988,"body":"And then we also mentioned,"},{"startTime":5258.498,"endTime":5260.988,"body":"we should observe, we should"},{"startTime":5260.988,"endTime":5262.668,"body":"observe who we're dealing with."},{"startTime":5262.698,"endTime":5264.348,"body":"Are they a sociopath?"},{"startTime":5264.348,"endTime":5265.458,"body":"Are they a narcissist?"},{"startTime":5265.638,"endTime":5268.658,"body":"If so, we're gonna have to"},{"startTime":5265.638,"endTime":5268.658,"body":"deal with this a different way."},{"startTime":5268.663,"endTime":5270.608,"body":"Maybe it isn't to deal with it at all."},{"startTime":5270.608,"endTime":5273.218,"body":"We know, like we can't get"},{"startTime":5270.608,"endTime":5273.218,"body":"through to this person."},{"startTime":5273.368,"endTime":5277.218,"body":"It will be emo emotionally"},{"startTime":5273.368,"endTime":5277.218,"body":"energetically, exhausting to do so."},{"startTime":5277.548,"endTime":5277.668,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":5277.718,"endTime":5280.658,"body":"So at that point you can"},{"startTime":5277.718,"endTime":5280.658,"body":"leave the organization."},{"startTime":5280.658,"endTime":5285.408,"body":"It sounds like, and maybe worst"},{"startTime":5280.658,"endTime":5285.408,"body":"case scenario bring this up to HR."},{"startTime":5286.458,"endTime":5288.818,"body":"Oh, I thought you were gonna"},{"startTime":5286.458,"endTime":5288.818,"body":"say burn their house down or"},{"startTime":5288.848,"endTime":5290.978,"body":"something's worst case scenario."},{"startTime":5290.978,"endTime":5295.068,"body":"I was gonna say with the"},{"startTime":5290.978,"endTime":5295.068,"body":"house down, but you're right."},{"startTime":5295.068,"endTime":5295.818,"body":"talking to HR."},{"startTime":5295.818,"endTime":5295.968,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":5295.968,"endTime":5296.718,"body":"Worst case scenario."},{"startTime":5296.718,"endTime":5296.928,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":5296.928,"endTime":5297.258,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":5297.708,"endTime":5298.158,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":5298.278,"endTime":5300.978,"body":"We covered a lot of ground today,"},{"startTime":5298.278,"endTime":5300.978,"body":"so thanks for hanging with us."},{"startTime":5301.008,"endTime":5301.338,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":5301.338,"endTime":5302.538,"body":"Everybody, both of you."},{"startTime":5303.018,"endTime":5303.288,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":5304.168,"endTime":5306.628,"body":"It was a good topic and"},{"startTime":5304.168,"endTime":5306.628,"body":"then it became weird."},{"startTime":5306.628,"endTime":5308.308,"body":"We went off to a weird place."},{"startTime":5308.548,"endTime":5309.898,"body":"I feel that was mostly me."},{"startTime":5310.228,"endTime":5312.323,"body":"And we went super long on this."},{"startTime":5312.323,"endTime":5315.173,"body":"Like I'm, I'm kind of shocked"},{"startTime":5312.323,"endTime":5315.173,"body":"how long we went on this."},{"startTime":5315.223,"endTime":5316.453,"body":"And we could have gone longer."},{"startTime":5316.503,"endTime":5319.593,"body":"You know, one thing I didn't ask"},{"startTime":5316.503,"endTime":5319.593,"body":"it's too late now we wrapped up."},{"startTime":5319.863,"endTime":5323.883,"body":"But one thing I didn't ask was what"},{"startTime":5319.863,"endTime":5323.883,"body":"happens after the one-on-one like,"},{"startTime":5323.883,"endTime":5326.943,"body":"how do you measure success of that?"},{"startTime":5326.943,"endTime":5330.726,"body":"One-on-one that's a whole nother success."},{"startTime":5330.731,"endTime":5333.548,"body":"That's a whole nother podcast"},{"startTime":5330.731,"endTime":5333.548,"body":", one-on-ones that's the podcast"},{"startTime":5333.548,"endTime":5334.868,"body":"one-on-ones is the podcast."},{"startTime":5334.918,"endTime":5335.218,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":5335.218,"endTime":5335.608,"body":"Cool."},{"startTime":5335.848,"endTime":5336.988,"body":"This is a great topic."},{"startTime":5337.528,"endTime":5338.218,"body":"Thanks for playing."}]}