{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.049,"endTime":3.019,"body":"Hey, you know what I haven't heard"},{"startTime":0.049,"endTime":3.019,"body":"since the nineties do more with less."},{"startTime":3.079,"endTime":5.38,"body":"That's what I haven't"},{"startTime":3.079,"endTime":5.38,"body":"heard do more with less."},{"startTime":5.384,"endTime":6.169,"body":"Do you remember that?"},{"startTime":6.319,"endTime":8.18,"body":"Do you remember when people"},{"startTime":6.319,"endTime":8.18,"body":"used to say that all the time?"},{"startTime":8.24,"endTime":9.47,"body":"Oh yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":9.47,"endTime":15.435,"body":"That and the other one was slow down to"},{"startTime":9.47,"endTime":15.435,"body":"get foster or work smarter, not harder,"},{"startTime":15.485,"endTime":18.005,"body":"they would tell you that while they"},{"startTime":15.485,"endTime":18.005,"body":"would also tell you do more with less."},{"startTime":18.005,"endTime":18.935,"body":"Yeah, of course."},{"startTime":19.035,"endTime":22.525,"body":"That's the topic for today"},{"startTime":19.035,"endTime":22.525,"body":"working with finite resources."},{"startTime":22.875,"endTime":27.865,"body":"I think if you're working in corporate"},{"startTime":22.875,"endTime":27.865,"body":"America probably you have dealt with"},{"startTime":27.865,"endTime":29.478,"body":"this your entire career, , I agree."},{"startTime":29.808,"endTime":34.838,"body":"It seems to me there's never"},{"startTime":29.808,"endTime":34.838,"body":"enough people or capacity for most"},{"startTime":34.838,"endTime":36.308,"body":"people for the work, for the work."},{"startTime":36.313,"endTime":36.488,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":36.698,"endTime":37.058,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":37.063,"endTime":40.778,"body":"So for some reason they know exactly"},{"startTime":37.063,"endTime":40.778,"body":"when they want the work done by."},{"startTime":41.243,"endTime":43.223,"body":"Because they have a crystal"},{"startTime":41.243,"endTime":43.223,"body":"ball in their head, right?"},{"startTime":43.223,"endTime":46.573,"body":"Yeah September 18th, this"},{"startTime":43.223,"endTime":46.573,"body":"project will be live."},{"startTime":47.083,"endTime":48.673,"body":"You have four people to do it."},{"startTime":48.943,"endTime":53.893,"body":"Mm-hmm  and some of those four people are"},{"startTime":48.943,"endTime":53.893,"body":"also working on other projects, but don't"},{"startTime":53.893,"endTime":56.233,"body":"worry, Brian, they're on your project 50%."},{"startTime":56.623,"endTime":58.573,"body":"Oh, and they're on the other project 50%."},{"startTime":58.753,"endTime":60.913,"body":"Oh no, that sounds scary."},{"startTime":61.033,"endTime":61.633,"body":"It is"},{"startTime":61.813,"endTime":64.788,"body":"I don't know finite resources"},{"startTime":61.813,"endTime":64.788,"body":"are not necessarily a bad thing,"},{"startTime":64.818,"endTime":67.918,"body":"cuz again, I'll bring my product,"},{"startTime":64.818,"endTime":67.918,"body":"focus to this discussion, right?"},{"startTime":68.338,"endTime":71.058,"body":"Like finite resources are"},{"startTime":68.338,"endTime":71.058,"body":"not necessarily a bad thing."},{"startTime":71.058,"endTime":73.248,"body":"If you come out from the"},{"startTime":71.058,"endTime":73.248,"body":"perspective of finite resources"},{"startTime":73.248,"endTime":74.988,"body":"is just like a human element."},{"startTime":75.078,"endTime":79.188,"body":"Every organization, every person"},{"startTime":75.078,"endTime":79.188,"body":"has a finite amount of time."},{"startTime":79.238,"endTime":80.348,"body":"It applies at every level."},{"startTime":80.588,"endTime":82.118,"body":"So I was like, it's just"},{"startTime":80.588,"endTime":82.118,"body":"something we have to live with."},{"startTime":82.178,"endTime":83.018,"body":"How do we live with it?"},{"startTime":83.018,"endTime":84.218,"body":"We can deal with it logically."},{"startTime":84.218,"endTime":84.548,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":84.548,"endTime":85.748,"body":"We can, we can."},{"startTime":85.968,"endTime":90.763,"body":"But, but I think it's in the context"},{"startTime":85.968,"endTime":90.763,"body":"of the organization really, because one"},{"startTime":90.763,"endTime":95.473,"body":"company dealing with it in a certain way,"},{"startTime":90.763,"endTime":95.473,"body":"doesn't guarantee another one adopting"},{"startTime":95.473,"endTime":97.303,"body":"the same way would be successful with it."},{"startTime":97.333,"endTime":99.443,"body":"Right, right so there is,"},{"startTime":97.333,"endTime":99.443,"body":"there is part of that."},{"startTime":99.653,"endTime":104.693,"body":"And a lot of it is around this"},{"startTime":99.653,"endTime":104.693,"body":"whole business of putting people on"},{"startTime":104.693,"endTime":109.043,"body":"multiple projects and then expecting"},{"startTime":104.693,"endTime":109.043,"body":"them to deliver a hundred percent"},{"startTime":109.043,"endTime":112.613,"body":"here, a hundred percent here or 50"},{"startTime":109.043,"endTime":112.613,"body":"50, but you know, for each project,"},{"startTime":112.613,"endTime":115.313,"body":"they're there for half of the time or."},{"startTime":116.063,"endTime":116.843,"body":"Part of the time."},{"startTime":116.873,"endTime":116.993,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":116.993,"endTime":117.203,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":117.253,"endTime":120.703,"body":"I think the other side of the, the"},{"startTime":117.253,"endTime":120.703,"body":"other side of the equation tells us"},{"startTime":120.703,"endTime":122.893,"body":"that contact switching has a cost."},{"startTime":123.073,"endTime":123.433,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":123.438,"endTime":128.233,"body":"And so when you factor that in"},{"startTime":123.438,"endTime":128.233,"body":"really, are they 50 50 on a project?"},{"startTime":128.443,"endTime":128.833,"body":"No."},{"startTime":129.043,"endTime":132.523,"body":"Well, I tell people this all the time"},{"startTime":129.043,"endTime":132.523,"body":"that the scrum model has a 20% overhead."},{"startTime":132.523,"endTime":136.423,"body":"So every additional team or, well,"},{"startTime":132.523,"endTime":136.423,"body":"every team, not additional every"},{"startTime":136.423,"endTime":139.973,"body":"team that you're on, you have a"},{"startTime":136.423,"endTime":139.973,"body":"20% overhead , to add to your time."},{"startTime":140.153,"endTime":140.393,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":140.453,"endTime":144.983,"body":"So if you're on two teams, nearly half"},{"startTime":140.453,"endTime":144.983,"body":"your time is chewed up by overhead."},{"startTime":145.943,"endTime":148.523,"body":"And that's just a"},{"startTime":145.943,"endTime":148.523,"body":"reality of the situation."},{"startTime":149.033,"endTime":149.243,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":149.243,"endTime":152.763,"body":"The overhead here is just scrum"},{"startTime":149.243,"endTime":152.763,"body":"events and things like that."},{"startTime":152.763,"endTime":157.253,"body":"Right, right but we're going into"},{"startTime":152.763,"endTime":157.253,"body":"like signs that there is an issue"},{"startTime":158.093,"endTime":161.123,"body":"is the category we're going into"},{"startTime":158.093,"endTime":161.123,"body":"mm-hmm  signs that signs, that"},{"startTime":161.243,"endTime":162.443,"body":"signs that there is an issue."},{"startTime":162.623,"endTime":164.093,"body":"And the first one that you pointed out."},{"startTime":164.468,"endTime":168.368,"body":"You brought up right out,"},{"startTime":164.468,"endTime":168.368,"body":"right outta the gate was team"},{"startTime":168.368,"endTime":170.648,"body":"members being on multiple teams."},{"startTime":170.828,"endTime":174.308,"body":"So now they're, so now the team"},{"startTime":170.828,"endTime":174.308,"body":"members are playing this game of"},{"startTime":174.308,"endTime":180.368,"body":"I'm 50% over here, or, I mean, the,"},{"startTime":174.308,"endTime":180.368,"body":"honestly the, the easiest game is"},{"startTime":180.368,"endTime":182.438,"body":"I'm 50% over here and 50% over here."},{"startTime":182.798,"endTime":183.788,"body":"In reality."},{"startTime":184.298,"endTime":188.318,"body":"What I've seen is like, I, I"},{"startTime":184.298,"endTime":188.318,"body":"used to be on this other team."},{"startTime":188.563,"endTime":191.713,"body":"And that product has gone live and"},{"startTime":188.563,"endTime":191.713,"body":"I'm not on that team anymore, but"},{"startTime":191.713,"endTime":192.973,"body":"occasionally I'll support them."},{"startTime":192.973,"endTime":199.913,"body":"So I'm maybe 10, 20% that team, but this"},{"startTime":192.973,"endTime":199.913,"body":"is my main team, but also I'm a I'm I'm"},{"startTime":199.913,"endTime":204.683,"body":"the . This is like the I in the in the,"},{"startTime":199.913,"endTime":204.683,"body":"the lean Phoenix project in the Phoenix"},{"startTime":204.688,"endTime":208.163,"body":"project, the, that guy, Brad or whatever,"},{"startTime":204.688,"endTime":208.163,"body":"I can't remember the guy who was."},{"startTime":208.433,"endTime":210.893,"body":"Why what's he working on,"},{"startTime":208.433,"endTime":210.893,"body":"why is he working on that?"},{"startTime":210.893,"endTime":213.613,"body":"He's not even assigned to that, like"},{"startTime":210.893,"endTime":213.613,"body":"that kind of thing oh, well he's the"},{"startTime":213.613,"endTime":216.823,"body":"only one who knows how that system"},{"startTime":213.613,"endTime":216.823,"body":"works is he's the only employee from"},{"startTime":216.828,"endTime":221.023,"body":"that team that we rolled off all the"},{"startTime":216.828,"endTime":221.023,"body":"contractors or whatever like that."},{"startTime":221.263,"endTime":226.303,"body":"In reality, it'd be great to"},{"startTime":221.263,"endTime":226.303,"body":"say you're 50, 50, testers get"},{"startTime":226.303,"endTime":227.893,"body":"caught in this a lot, a lot."},{"startTime":227.893,"endTime":230.143,"body":"You're 50% on this team, 50% on this team."},{"startTime":230.653,"endTime":231.013,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":231.018,"endTime":232.873,"body":"So, but in, in reality, yeah."},{"startTime":232.873,"endTime":236.743,"body":"In reality, they're really"},{"startTime":232.873,"endTime":236.743,"body":"closer to 20% of the teams."},{"startTime":236.743,"endTime":237.013,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":237.013,"endTime":237.133,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":237.138,"endTime":240.313,"body":"Because of all that context"},{"startTime":237.138,"endTime":240.313,"body":"switching and, and other than sprint"},{"startTime":240.318,"endTime":244.873,"body":"events, which there's guidance"},{"startTime":240.318,"endTime":244.873,"body":"around 20% overhead for that."},{"startTime":244.873,"endTime":248.003,"body":"Mm-hmm  but there's so many"},{"startTime":244.873,"endTime":248.003,"body":"other meetings typically."},{"startTime":248.113,"endTime":252.473,"body":"Right planning, meetings, other meetings,"},{"startTime":248.113,"endTime":252.473,"body":"not sprint planning, but others."},{"startTime":252.563,"endTime":252.893,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":252.893,"endTime":252.953,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":252.958,"endTime":254.993,"body":"So people wanna get together"},{"startTime":252.958,"endTime":254.993,"body":"to discuss something."},{"startTime":255.053,"endTime":255.203,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":255.233,"endTime":256.703,"body":"Those kinds of meetings."},{"startTime":257.273,"endTime":259.073,"body":"And the typical answer is being well."},{"startTime":259.073,"endTime":262.323,"body":"We're not loading people to"},{"startTime":259.073,"endTime":262.323,"body":"their full eight hours a day."},{"startTime":262.353,"endTime":265.233,"body":"We're saying six, but I"},{"startTime":262.353,"endTime":265.233,"body":"would push on that as well."},{"startTime":265.233,"endTime":265.353,"body":"And."},{"startTime":266.173,"endTime":271.273,"body":"Really are people effective six"},{"startTime":266.173,"endTime":271.273,"body":"hours a day, even if it's six"},{"startTime":271.393,"endTime":272.893,"body":"mm-hmm  they're switching context."},{"startTime":272.923,"endTime":276.893,"body":"So if a person has only six hours a"},{"startTime":272.923,"endTime":276.893,"body":"day, but he's got two teams that he's"},{"startTime":276.893,"endTime":279.653,"body":"on, or she, how effective are they?"},{"startTime":279.653,"endTime":282.293,"body":"They're not three hours"},{"startTime":279.653,"endTime":282.293,"body":"effective on each project, right."},{"startTime":282.443,"endTime":283.103,"body":"By far."},{"startTime":283.223,"endTime":283.583,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":283.733,"endTime":284.903,"body":"Maybe two, if you're lucky."},{"startTime":285.143,"endTime":292.703,"body":"Yeah and, and that observation is lost on"},{"startTime":285.143,"endTime":292.703,"body":"people that assign these resources yeah."},{"startTime":292.733,"endTime":293.453,"body":"To teams."},{"startTime":293.783,"endTime":294.053,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":294.063,"endTime":297.628,"body":"the way I used to deal with this as"},{"startTime":294.063,"endTime":297.628,"body":"a manager is I'd break the day up."},{"startTime":297.633,"endTime":300.078,"body":"I'd be like in the morning,"},{"startTime":297.633,"endTime":300.078,"body":"work on this program."},{"startTime":300.228,"endTime":303.708,"body":"And then after, after you come back from"},{"startTime":300.228,"endTime":303.708,"body":"lunch, work on this other program, so"},{"startTime":303.708,"endTime":305.408,"body":"there's a natural break in the day anyway."},{"startTime":305.408,"endTime":307.728,"body":"Don't and don't make, don't"},{"startTime":305.408,"endTime":307.728,"body":"go back if you can help it."},{"startTime":307.728,"endTime":311.028,"body":"I mean, sometimes people come and get"},{"startTime":307.728,"endTime":311.028,"body":"you people interrupt you or whatever."},{"startTime":311.118,"endTime":313.308,"body":"That's, that's the context switching"},{"startTime":311.118,"endTime":313.308,"body":"I'm talking, you were talking about."},{"startTime":313.338,"endTime":313.76,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":313.848,"endTime":315.358,"body":"But that was the way that I would."},{"startTime":315.858,"endTime":317.628,"body":"As much as you can help people."},{"startTime":317.868,"endTime":322.008,"body":"That was the way I would try to help"},{"startTime":317.868,"endTime":322.008,"body":"them deal with cuz the context switching"},{"startTime":322.008,"endTime":324.828,"body":"is just part of the corporate America."},{"startTime":325.078,"endTime":326.308,"body":"We're gonna get into this later."},{"startTime":326.398,"endTime":330.738,"body":"I don't want to go into it now, but"},{"startTime":326.398,"endTime":330.738,"body":"I'm, I'm gonna say in organizations"},{"startTime":330.858,"endTime":335.298,"body":"that do not have a handle on this,"},{"startTime":330.858,"endTime":335.298,"body":"there is somebody saying like, oh,"},{"startTime":335.298,"endTime":337.548,"body":"do you really need another resource?"},{"startTime":337.658,"endTime":341.148,"body":"How do, how can you justify"},{"startTime":337.658,"endTime":341.148,"body":"the headcount headcount home?"},{"startTime":341.238,"endTime":343.038,"body":"How can you haven't heard"},{"startTime":341.238,"endTime":343.038,"body":"that terminal a while too."},{"startTime":343.043,"endTime":343.398,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":343.578,"endTime":346.908,"body":"You know, since I heard that, how"},{"startTime":343.578,"endTime":346.908,"body":"can you justify another headcount?"},{"startTime":347.058,"endTime":351.138,"body":"We gotta go back to our yearly visit"},{"startTime":347.058,"endTime":351.138,"body":"to the well and fill up our bucket."},{"startTime":351.918,"endTime":353.058,"body":"And justify"},{"startTime":353.308,"endTime":353.488,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":353.488,"endTime":353.728,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":353.728,"endTime":359.278,"body":"And then the way it gets delivered down"},{"startTime":353.728,"endTime":359.278,"body":"to the teams is we don't have enough"},{"startTime":359.283,"endTime":361.018,"body":"budget, so you'll have to make due."},{"startTime":361.288,"endTime":363.918,"body":"So Fred, over here, Mary,"},{"startTime":361.288,"endTime":363.918,"body":"over here, they're gonna be"},{"startTime":363.978,"endTime":365.418,"body":"working on these two projects."},{"startTime":365.423,"endTime":368.968,"body":"Right and, and on top of that,"},{"startTime":365.423,"endTime":368.968,"body":"Sometimes leadership will pull"},{"startTime":369.208,"endTime":370.198,"body":"'em out to do other things."},{"startTime":370.468,"endTime":374.858,"body":"And I can give you some examples"},{"startTime":370.468,"endTime":374.858,"body":"of that tech leads or anybody yeah."},{"startTime":375.158,"endTime":377.708,"body":"Pull 'em out and go, well,"},{"startTime":375.158,"endTime":377.708,"body":"there's a conference over there"},{"startTime":377.708,"endTime":378.758,"body":"and they need something for that."},{"startTime":378.763,"endTime":379.928,"body":"Can you whip something up?"},{"startTime":380.228,"endTime":385.358,"body":"Well, tech, so tech leads are in a unique"},{"startTime":380.228,"endTime":385.358,"body":"position I still wanna talk about when"},{"startTime":385.358,"endTime":388.828,"body":"you don't have enough team members to"},{"startTime":385.358,"endTime":388.828,"body":"do work or enough teams to do work."},{"startTime":388.828,"endTime":394.348,"body":"That's separate tech leads fall under that"},{"startTime":388.828,"endTime":394.348,"body":"banner that we talked about that we did."},{"startTime":394.348,"endTime":396.628,"body":"We did, we do episode"},{"startTime":394.348,"endTime":396.628,"body":"on UN shared services."},{"startTime":396.628,"endTime":397.138,"body":"I can't remember."},{"startTime":397.258,"endTime":398.428,"body":"I think we just did."},{"startTime":398.518,"endTime":399.988,"body":"We talked about it on one of the episodes."},{"startTime":399.988,"endTime":400.678,"body":"Yeah, I can't remember."},{"startTime":400.683,"endTime":406.553,"body":"But so tech leads fall under what I think"},{"startTime":400.683,"endTime":406.553,"body":"as a leads pool of people that aren't"},{"startTime":406.553,"endTime":410.273,"body":"necessarily assigned to any one team"},{"startTime":406.553,"endTime":410.273,"body":"they're sort of, they're sort of shared"},{"startTime":410.813,"endTime":413.303,"body":"across a program or across several teams."},{"startTime":413.583,"endTime":415.893,"body":"and they go where they're needed"},{"startTime":413.583,"endTime":415.893,"body":"and they help where they needed."},{"startTime":416.628,"endTime":420.648,"body":"But they do activities that  launch"},{"startTime":416.628,"endTime":420.648,"body":"teams forward to the next level or"},{"startTime":420.648,"endTime":423.468,"body":"help teams get prepared for some"},{"startTime":420.648,"endTime":423.468,"body":"stuff that they're about to work"},{"startTime":423.473,"endTime":425.868,"body":"on or help teams coordinate better."},{"startTime":426.048,"endTime":430.608,"body":"Some, some, or, or I know we've talked"},{"startTime":426.048,"endTime":430.608,"body":"about this before, or they have a very"},{"startTime":430.608,"endTime":432.498,"body":"specific, a very specific set of skills."},{"startTime":432.708,"endTime":436.608,"body":"They have a very specific set"},{"startTime":432.708,"endTime":436.608,"body":"of skills and they will find"},{"startTime":436.608,"endTime":437.908,"body":"you and they will kill you."},{"startTime":437.908,"endTime":438.858,"body":"I just said that twice."},{"startTime":438.858,"endTime":438.948,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":438.948,"endTime":439.008,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":439.648,"endTime":443.218,"body":"that the organization is not"},{"startTime":439.648,"endTime":443.218,"body":"willing to spend money on."},{"startTime":443.308,"endTime":446.718,"body":"Yeah for every team, like a"},{"startTime":443.308,"endTime":446.718,"body":"UI UX designer or a DBA or"},{"startTime":446.718,"endTime":447.498,"body":"something, something like that."},{"startTime":447.503,"endTime":447.888,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":448.488,"endTime":450.618,"body":"Or that there just aren't that"},{"startTime":448.488,"endTime":450.618,"body":"many people in the market."},{"startTime":451.338,"endTime":453.918,"body":"you know, that is a challenge,"},{"startTime":451.338,"endTime":453.918,"body":"especially nowadays, right?"},{"startTime":453.918,"endTime":458.208,"body":"Finding, finding people, DevOps,"},{"startTime":453.918,"endTime":458.208,"body":"engineers, mm-hmm  for example, like"},{"startTime":458.208,"endTime":463.488,"body":"people that can come and set up DevOps"},{"startTime":458.208,"endTime":463.488,"body":"from the ground up deployments, no"},{"startTime":463.493,"endTime":468.308,"body":"touch pipelines that, teach the team"},{"startTime":463.493,"endTime":468.308,"body":"how to check in their code and teach"},{"startTime":468.313,"endTime":472.058,"body":"the team about trunk based development"},{"startTime":468.313,"endTime":472.058,"body":"when they're doing like that skillset,"},{"startTime":472.708,"endTime":476.128,"body":"that specific skillset and the"},{"startTime":472.708,"endTime":476.128,"body":"best practices involved in there."},{"startTime":476.278,"endTime":476.848,"body":"Best practices."},{"startTime":476.848,"endTime":478.708,"body":"That's another one we haven't"},{"startTime":476.848,"endTime":478.708,"body":"heard in a while, man."},{"startTime":478.708,"endTime":482.908,"body":"This is the, the, the podcast of the"},{"startTime":478.708,"endTime":482.908,"body":"nineties right here  those, I don't"},{"startTime":482.908,"endTime":486.633,"body":"expect companies to hire a person with"},{"startTime":482.908,"endTime":486.633,"body":"that skillset set for every single team."},{"startTime":487.023,"endTime":487.863,"body":"No, no, of course not."},{"startTime":487.863,"endTime":488.403,"body":"Of course not."},{"startTime":488.403,"endTime":488.613,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":488.613,"endTime":491.343,"body":"So it's not feasible from at many levels."},{"startTime":491.463,"endTime":491.613,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":491.643,"endTime":494.823,"body":"To your point, you don't have enough,"},{"startTime":491.643,"endTime":494.823,"body":"you don't have an abundance of people"},{"startTime":495.123,"endTime":496.833,"body":"lying around with those skill sets."},{"startTime":496.838,"endTime":498.063,"body":"They're expensive, et cetera."},{"startTime":498.063,"endTime":498.273,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":498.723,"endTime":501.483,"body":"But there's, there's another"},{"startTime":498.723,"endTime":501.483,"body":"way this could be approached."},{"startTime":501.483,"endTime":506.733,"body":"Maybe you don't have DevOps necessarily"},{"startTime":501.483,"endTime":506.733,"body":"assigned to a team you know, DevOps"},{"startTime":506.733,"endTime":509.943,"body":"team members for the whole duration"},{"startTime":506.733,"endTime":509.943,"body":"of the project, because you don't even"},{"startTime":509.943,"endTime":512.673,"body":"need that same thing with an architect."},{"startTime":512.883,"endTime":515.583,"body":"You don't need an architect to be"},{"startTime":512.883,"endTime":515.583,"body":"assigned to a team for the whole"},{"startTime":515.583,"endTime":517.503,"body":"duration you need to at specific times."},{"startTime":517.563,"endTime":521.733,"body":"Right how about thinking about"},{"startTime":517.563,"endTime":521.733,"body":"letting these people work on just one"},{"startTime":521.733,"endTime":523.683,"body":"team for a finite duration, right?"},{"startTime":523.688,"endTime":523.883,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":524.043,"endTime":527.793,"body":"So a few weeks, a, a sprint or"},{"startTime":524.043,"endTime":527.793,"body":"two or three, whatever it takes."},{"startTime":527.823,"endTime":528.063,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":528.423,"endTime":530.913,"body":"Set up the DevOps pipelines,"},{"startTime":528.423,"endTime":530.913,"body":"et cetera, et cetera."},{"startTime":530.913,"endTime":535.653,"body":"Right An architect would set up the"},{"startTime":530.913,"endTime":535.653,"body":"solution design and so on and then"},{"startTime":535.653,"endTime":540.303,"body":"they move to another team, but not like"},{"startTime":535.653,"endTime":540.303,"body":"splice their time across multiple teams."},{"startTime":540.663,"endTime":544.328,"body":"Let's talk about architect, for example,"},{"startTime":540.663,"endTime":544.328,"body":"cause I an architect is a great example."},{"startTime":544.828,"endTime":548.158,"body":"UI UX is a little bit different"},{"startTime":544.828,"endTime":548.158,"body":"architect is a great example cuz"},{"startTime":548.158,"endTime":550.718,"body":"it's a dev focused skill set."},{"startTime":551.588,"endTime":552.428,"body":"I think of anyway."},{"startTime":552.758,"endTime":555.988,"body":"And I think of an architect, I"},{"startTime":552.758,"endTime":555.988,"body":"think of two types of architects."},{"startTime":556.438,"endTime":558.058,"body":"Let me see if you go"},{"startTime":556.438,"endTime":558.058,"body":"along with me on this one."},{"startTime":558.058,"endTime":558.418,"body":"Alright, sure."},{"startTime":558.448,"endTime":558.748,"body":"Try it."},{"startTime":558.928,"endTime":562.378,"body":"I think of two types of architects, I"},{"startTime":558.928,"endTime":562.378,"body":"think of the architect that lives in"},{"startTime":562.378,"endTime":567.808,"body":"the ivory tower and comes down and then"},{"startTime":562.378,"endTime":567.808,"body":"says, here is your architecture and then"},{"startTime":567.808,"endTime":569.428,"body":"bounces out and you never see 'em again."},{"startTime":569.608,"endTime":569.878,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":569.968,"endTime":573.028,"body":"And then the team has to be like,"},{"startTime":569.968,"endTime":573.028,"body":"well, this doesn't take into account."},{"startTime":573.118,"endTime":573.628,"body":"Like what."},{"startTime":574.128,"endTime":574.698,"body":"What do I do?"},{"startTime":574.848,"endTime":575.058,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":575.298,"endTime":575.538,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":575.543,"endTime":578.458,"body":"And then there's the architect  who"},{"startTime":575.543,"endTime":578.458,"body":"basically comes to your sprint"},{"startTime":578.458,"endTime":581.188,"body":"plannings and, or backlog refinements."},{"startTime":581.308,"endTime":583.888,"body":"When you're gonna talk about the"},{"startTime":581.308,"endTime":583.888,"body":"feature and says, Hey, if you're gonna"},{"startTime":583.893,"endTime":589.258,"body":"do X, Y, Z, either there needs to be"},{"startTime":583.893,"endTime":589.258,"body":"some guardrails or we need to consider"},{"startTime":589.288,"endTime":592.858,"body":"building it in a way where it's reusable"},{"startTime":589.288,"endTime":592.858,"body":"for what the other teams are doing."},{"startTime":592.858,"endTime":595.618,"body":"Cuz you, maybe you guys don't"},{"startTime":592.858,"endTime":595.618,"body":"realize that the other teams"},{"startTime":595.738,"endTime":597.868,"body":"utilize the framework this way."},{"startTime":598.288,"endTime":603.303,"body":"And  so that kind of architect anytime"},{"startTime":598.288,"endTime":603.303,"body":"a specific feature or whatever is talked"},{"startTime":603.303,"endTime":606.153,"body":"about in a back of refinement, you kind"},{"startTime":603.303,"endTime":606.153,"body":"of need to let them know ahead of time"},{"startTime":606.183,"endTime":612.153,"body":"or they need to be flexible enough to"},{"startTime":606.183,"endTime":612.153,"body":"always be optional on your refinements."},{"startTime":612.213,"endTime":613.443,"body":"So it's on their calendar."},{"startTime":613.563,"endTime":616.623,"body":"It's just, you let them know when"},{"startTime":613.563,"endTime":616.623,"body":"the event is happening, whether they"},{"startTime":616.623,"endTime":620.103,"body":"need to actually show up at the,"},{"startTime":616.623,"endTime":620.103,"body":"they need to book off that time."},{"startTime":620.223,"endTime":621.903,"body":"Mm-hmm  so that they're dedicated."},{"startTime":622.353,"endTime":626.793,"body":"But then you can make the call at the last"},{"startTime":622.353,"endTime":626.793,"body":"minute, cuz sometimes refinements at the"},{"startTime":626.793,"endTime":629.133,"body":"last minute you decide what the agenda is."},{"startTime":629.433,"endTime":631.083,"body":"That's just a reality of again."},{"startTime":631.083,"endTime":631.173,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":631.443,"endTime":634.203,"body":"Again, your product person"},{"startTime":631.443,"endTime":634.203,"body":"is also a finite resource."},{"startTime":634.593,"endTime":639.933,"body":"So you need to structure your"},{"startTime":634.593,"endTime":639.933,"body":"organization with flexibility"},{"startTime":640.183,"endTime":641.263,"body":"upstream, downstream, what?"},{"startTime":641.263,"endTime":641.983,"body":"It doesn't really matter."},{"startTime":642.193,"endTime":643.783,"body":"The whole thing needs"},{"startTime":642.193,"endTime":643.783,"body":"to be a little flexible."},{"startTime":644.283,"endTime":646.173,"body":"I'm also making some assumptions here."},{"startTime":646.563,"endTime":650.613,"body":"Assumptions that your system architect"},{"startTime":646.563,"endTime":650.613,"body":"that we're talking about here is not"},{"startTime":650.613,"endTime":653.073,"body":"shared across, I don't know, 30 teams."},{"startTime":653.133,"endTime":654.333,"body":"There's something ridiculous like that."},{"startTime":654.843,"endTime":654.993,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":655.053,"endTime":655.293,"body":"You know?"},{"startTime":655.293,"endTime":657.963,"body":"Cause you gotta come into"},{"startTime":655.293,"endTime":657.963,"body":"30 backlog refinements."},{"startTime":657.963,"endTime":658.773,"body":"Like no, come on."},{"startTime":658.923,"endTime":659.133,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":659.133,"endTime":659.343,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":659.493,"endTime":660.243,"body":"It's not feasible."},{"startTime":660.243,"endTime":660.693,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":660.693,"endTime":660.753,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":660.843,"endTime":661.143,"body":"Come on."},{"startTime":661.713,"endTime":661.983,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":661.983,"endTime":662.913,"body":"So I, I agree."},{"startTime":662.913,"endTime":664.893,"body":"Those are, those are two different types."},{"startTime":664.898,"endTime":668.223,"body":"There's a there's, there's a"},{"startTime":664.898,"endTime":668.223,"body":"type of architect that will."},{"startTime":668.928,"endTime":670.158,"body":"Formulate the solution."},{"startTime":670.398,"endTime":670.728,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":670.848,"endTime":675.168,"body":"And then they will disseminate that"},{"startTime":670.848,"endTime":675.168,"body":"information down to the tech leads,"},{"startTime":675.678,"endTime":679.728,"body":"senior devs, whatever mm-hmm, to the"},{"startTime":675.678,"endTime":679.728,"body":"point where these people can run with it."},{"startTime":679.878,"endTime":680.088,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":680.148,"endTime":683.688,"body":"But yet those architects are"},{"startTime":680.148,"endTime":683.688,"body":"available if there's questions."},{"startTime":683.688,"endTime":683.958,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":684.318,"endTime":687.798,"body":"But they're not necessarily"},{"startTime":684.318,"endTime":687.798,"body":"present in the day, day to day"},{"startTime":687.918,"endTime":690.258,"body":"standups or planning meetings, etc."},{"startTime":690.528,"endTime":691.848,"body":"No technic can go to them though."},{"startTime":692.028,"endTime":692.238,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":692.238,"endTime":693.108,"body":"As and when needed."},{"startTime":693.378,"endTime":693.648,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":694.008,"endTime":695.508,"body":"So there is that model as well."},{"startTime":695.568,"endTime":695.838,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"startTime":696.138,"endTime":698.978,"body":"what I wanted to challenge you on"},{"startTime":696.138,"endTime":698.978,"body":"was like an architect architect,"},{"startTime":698.978,"endTime":699.938,"body":"technically doesn't really matter."},{"startTime":699.938,"endTime":702.278,"body":"They're all like in my brain,"},{"startTime":699.938,"endTime":702.278,"body":"they're all kind of, they do"},{"startTime":702.283,"endTime":703.658,"body":"the same operation kind of."},{"startTime":703.918,"endTime":705.238,"body":"cuz the title doesn't really matter."},{"startTime":705.298,"endTime":708.478,"body":"It's it's some, some sort of person that's"},{"startTime":705.298,"endTime":708.478,"body":"making sure that the solutions that each"},{"startTime":708.483,"endTime":714.658,"body":"team is building fit together with all the"},{"startTime":708.483,"endTime":714.658,"body":"rest of the teams, te technology wise fit"},{"startTime":714.658,"endTime":715.738,"body":"together with all the rest of the teams."},{"startTime":716.018,"endTime":720.903,"body":"It's you think about enterprise architect"},{"startTime":716.018,"endTime":720.903,"body":"as opposed to just the solution architect?"},{"startTime":720.963,"endTime":724.053,"body":"Cause you can have multiple"},{"startTime":720.963,"endTime":724.053,"body":"solutions that just are not cohesive."},{"startTime":724.083,"endTime":724.563,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":724.653,"endTime":724.923,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":724.983,"endTime":727.263,"body":"Whereas enterprise architect"},{"startTime":724.983,"endTime":727.263,"body":"would have that in mind."},{"startTime":727.593,"endTime":727.773,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":727.803,"endTime":731.603,"body":"What, what I'm trying to say is at"},{"startTime":727.803,"endTime":731.603,"body":"least what I think I'm trying to say."},{"startTime":732.133,"endTime":735.253,"body":"I wouldn't expect them to design"},{"startTime":732.133,"endTime":735.253,"body":"something and bring it to the team."},{"startTime":735.493,"endTime":738.973,"body":"What I would expect is in, in the"},{"startTime":735.493,"endTime":738.973,"body":"team's refinement, they say, Hey,"},{"startTime":739.023,"endTime":740.943,"body":"we're going to engage on this new work."},{"startTime":741.483,"endTime":747.223,"body":"And then collaboratively in the"},{"startTime":741.483,"endTime":747.223,"body":"span of time in the refinement."},{"startTime":748.033,"endTime":754.423,"body":"They work out how the team can do what"},{"startTime":748.033,"endTime":754.423,"body":"they want to do while incorporating"},{"startTime":754.423,"endTime":757.133,"body":"the vision of the architect basically."},{"startTime":757.343,"endTime":757.493,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":757.643,"endTime":760.493,"body":"And if they can't figure it out in"},{"startTime":757.643,"endTime":760.493,"body":"that session, then maybe the team"},{"startTime":760.493,"endTime":763.463,"body":"doesn't need the product owner to"},{"startTime":760.493,"endTime":763.463,"body":"continue the technical discussion."},{"startTime":763.613,"endTime":766.593,"body":"They can schedule something"},{"startTime":763.613,"endTime":766.593,"body":"separate where they're further"},{"startTime":766.593,"endTime":767.913,"body":"defining it until they work it out."},{"startTime":768.093,"endTime":770.733,"body":"They can bring it back to a backlog"},{"startTime":768.093,"endTime":770.733,"body":"refinement to say, Hey, we figured"},{"startTime":770.733,"endTime":772.143,"body":"out how we're gonna solution this."},{"startTime":772.653,"endTime":774.153,"body":"And this is the way we wanna do it."},{"startTime":774.153,"endTime":777.883,"body":"Now, a lot of people might be like,"},{"startTime":774.153,"endTime":777.883,"body":"well, if they're dealing with like"},{"startTime":777.888,"endTime":780.763,"body":"low level solutioning, aren't they"},{"startTime":777.888,"endTime":780.763,"body":"doing a lot more than refinement?"},{"startTime":780.763,"endTime":781.213,"body":"I'm like, yeah."},{"startTime":781.573,"endTime":782.083,"body":"Slow down."},{"startTime":782.113,"endTime":782.533,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":782.563,"endTime":783.613,"body":"Yes, probably."},{"startTime":783.613,"endTime":783.883,"body":"But."},{"startTime":784.483,"endTime":788.413,"body":"If they need to get it done"},{"startTime":784.483,"endTime":788.413,"body":"to in order for the product to"},{"startTime":788.413,"endTime":789.733,"body":"move forward, like whatever man."},{"startTime":789.793,"endTime":789.873,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":789.873,"endTime":790.603,"body":"Like that yeah."},{"startTime":791.083,"endTime":791.473,"body":"Big deal."},{"startTime":791.593,"endTime":791.863,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":792.733,"endTime":793.363,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":794.173,"endTime":794.473,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":794.473,"endTime":798.698,"body":"I mean, so as far as as far as skill"},{"startTime":794.473,"endTime":798.698,"body":"sets that are in that category,"},{"startTime":798.698,"endTime":800.918,"body":"we talked about DBAs a little bit."},{"startTime":800.918,"endTime":804.268,"body":"Mm-hmm  and architects,"},{"startTime":800.918,"endTime":804.268,"body":"you mentioned UX, right?"},{"startTime":804.568,"endTime":805.018,"body":"Yeah, I did."},{"startTime":805.018,"endTime":805.288,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":805.828,"endTime":810.268,"body":"UX is, I like on one hand you have"},{"startTime":805.828,"endTime":810.268,"body":"somebody representing the developers"},{"startTime":810.448,"endTime":814.538,"body":"and, making sure their contribution"},{"startTime":810.448,"endTime":814.538,"body":"is joined with the rest of the,"},{"startTime":815.378,"endTime":818.018,"body":"the rest of the technical solution,"},{"startTime":815.378,"endTime":818.018,"body":"the enterprise wide solution,"},{"startTime":818.073,"endTime":822.753,"body":"The other way to go about that is"},{"startTime":818.073,"endTime":822.753,"body":"someone who's representing the product"},{"startTime":822.753,"endTime":826.743,"body":"person in that, to make sure that we"},{"startTime":822.753,"endTime":826.743,"body":"don't put a lot of effort into building"},{"startTime":826.743,"endTime":828.603,"body":"something that we haven't proven out yet."},{"startTime":828.633,"endTime":834.623,"body":"That's where the UI UX person comes in or,"},{"startTime":828.633,"endTime":834.623,"body":"or,  they're someone who represents the"},{"startTime":834.623,"endTime":839.423,"body":"customer when we are just generalizing,"},{"startTime":834.623,"endTime":839.423,"body":"what we can do when we just, when we're"},{"startTime":839.423,"endTime":843.563,"body":"just ideating, whoa, this is another"},{"startTime":839.423,"endTime":843.563,"body":"great, like I'm full of 'em today."},{"startTime":843.973,"endTime":846.493,"body":"when we're just ideating what"},{"startTime":843.973,"endTime":846.493,"body":"we could do we're not sold"},{"startTime":846.493,"endTime":847.303,"body":"on any one thing yet, right?"},{"startTime":847.858,"endTime":850.198,"body":"So maybe they're doing prototypes,"},{"startTime":847.858,"endTime":850.198,"body":"maybe they're talking to the"},{"startTime":850.198,"endTime":854.158,"body":"customer and they're bringing those"},{"startTime":850.198,"endTime":854.158,"body":"conversations back to the team."},{"startTime":854.968,"endTime":857.243,"body":"So they're extending the"},{"startTime":854.968,"endTime":857.243,"body":"product owner in that yeah."},{"startTime":857.333,"endTime":857.963,"body":"In that for sure."},{"startTime":858.113,"endTime":859.463,"body":"Discussion, for sure."},{"startTime":859.463,"endTime":860.063,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":860.513,"endTime":860.693,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":860.693,"endTime":866.203,"body":"So I, I think UX is a little bit of a"},{"startTime":860.693,"endTime":866.203,"body":"different category here and the reason"},{"startTime":866.208,"endTime":871.693,"body":"behind that is they're basically following"},{"startTime":866.208,"endTime":871.693,"body":"a bunch of principles that to their work."},{"startTime":871.693,"endTime":876.408,"body":"Right and applying those and what"},{"startTime":871.693,"endTime":876.408,"body":"I've seen, I've seen a couple"},{"startTime":876.408,"endTime":880.878,"body":"of different things done well,"},{"startTime":876.408,"endTime":880.878,"body":"and frankly, not so well, right."},{"startTime":880.883,"endTime":886.958,"body":"One is to engage the UX team members from"},{"startTime":880.883,"endTime":886.958,"body":"the beginning when the solution architect"},{"startTime":886.958,"endTime":888.538,"body":"is architecting the product, right."},{"startTime":889.043,"endTime":890.003,"body":"So build it in."},{"startTime":890.003,"endTime":890.063,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":890.553,"endTime":895.963,"body":"From, from from the beginning in that"},{"startTime":890.553,"endTime":895.963,"body":"model, they can go away after a while."},{"startTime":896.023,"endTime":900.703,"body":"Mm-hmm  when solution's been"},{"startTime":896.023,"endTime":900.703,"body":"designed, drafted to a point where"},{"startTime":900.703,"endTime":904.183,"body":"everybody's nodding up and down,"},{"startTime":900.703,"endTime":904.183,"body":"but again, they're available for"},{"startTime":904.183,"endTime":906.553,"body":"the team, if there's any questions."},{"startTime":906.583,"endTime":906.733,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":906.763,"endTime":909.463,"body":"The other one that I've"},{"startTime":906.763,"endTime":909.463,"body":"seen is they're not there."},{"startTime":909.853,"endTime":911.283,"body":"Yeah I mean, they're not there at all."},{"startTime":911.283,"endTime":915.073,"body":"And let the developers come up"},{"startTime":911.283,"endTime":915.073,"body":"with the user experience basically."},{"startTime":915.103,"endTime":919.783,"body":"And when they go, go into B a"},{"startTime":915.103,"endTime":919.783,"body":"T, we call it whatever you want."},{"startTime":919.843,"endTime":921.253,"body":"U a T B a T, et cetera."},{"startTime":921.283,"endTime":924.133,"body":"Mm-hmm  and you get some users on"},{"startTime":921.283,"endTime":924.133,"body":"there and you'll get the odd user."},{"startTime":924.133,"endTime":926.773,"body":"Who's gonna say, Hey, Hey,"},{"startTime":924.133,"endTime":926.773,"body":"what happens with you know,"},{"startTime":927.343,"endTime":931.053,"body":"compatibility with you know, people"},{"startTime":927.343,"endTime":931.053,"body":"that are colorblind or whatever."},{"startTime":931.113,"endTime":931.323,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":931.623,"endTime":935.343,"body":"And they go, ah, yes, we"},{"startTime":931.623,"endTime":935.343,"body":"need expertise on that."},{"startTime":935.433,"endTime":935.643,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":935.703,"endTime":938.223,"body":"Incomes, the UX person, they"},{"startTime":935.703,"endTime":938.223,"body":"go, this is done all wrong."},{"startTime":938.583,"endTime":939.693,"body":"Yeah, we should have built it in."},{"startTime":939.813,"endTime":940.053,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":940.473,"endTime":944.053,"body":"So that I've seen"},{"startTime":940.473,"endTime":944.053,"body":"unfortunately more often,"},{"startTime":944.233,"endTime":946.163,"body":"but, I think there's phases here."},{"startTime":946.263,"endTime":947.193,"body":"I think that's the idea."},{"startTime":947.193,"endTime":951.353,"body":"I was kind of working out, which was"},{"startTime":947.193,"endTime":951.353,"body":"the, when you're about to go into"},{"startTime":951.353,"endTime":956.943,"body":"building something you want your UI U"},{"startTime":951.353,"endTime":956.943,"body":"X designer involved kind of mocking,"},{"startTime":956.993,"endTime":961.208,"body":"if you have any suggestions, please"},{"startTime":956.993,"endTime":961.208,"body":"put them in the comments please"},{"startTime":961.548,"endTime":966.218,"body":"because I'm on my quest now to come"},{"startTime":961.548,"endTime":966.218,"body":"up with interactive wire frames."},{"startTime":966.368,"endTime":969.188,"body":"So wire frames you can click through and"},{"startTime":966.368,"endTime":969.188,"body":"you can show data and stuff like that."},{"startTime":969.278,"endTime":972.328,"body":"And that the tools that are out"},{"startTime":969.278,"endTime":972.328,"body":"there, there's a lot of heavyweight"},{"startTime":972.328,"endTime":973.348,"body":"tools out there for this."},{"startTime":973.348,"endTime":975.238,"body":"And I, I don't want to get"},{"startTime":973.348,"endTime":975.238,"body":"into heavyweight, right?"},{"startTime":975.238,"endTime":976.648,"body":"Like I, I wanna make a screen design."},{"startTime":976.648,"endTime":977.848,"body":"I wanna be done in a half an hour."},{"startTime":977.908,"endTime":978.838,"body":"It doesn't have to look great."},{"startTime":979.333,"endTime":980.683,"body":"It can look rudimentary."},{"startTime":980.713,"endTime":983.233,"body":"It could look lofi, but I"},{"startTime":980.713,"endTime":983.233,"body":"want to be done in a half."},{"startTime":983.233,"endTime":988.453,"body":"I wanna be able to mock up a design very"},{"startTime":983.233,"endTime":988.453,"body":"quickly in half an hour to an hour, you"},{"startTime":988.458,"endTime":990.253,"body":"be able to, I'd be able to publish it."},{"startTime":990.343,"endTime":992.443,"body":"I'd be able to, what, what"},{"startTime":990.343,"endTime":992.443,"body":"are your language is that?"},{"startTime":992.683,"endTime":996.763,"body":"And then let people click through the"},{"startTime":992.683,"endTime":996.763,"body":"experience and then I'll meet with them"},{"startTime":996.763,"endTime":997.813,"body":"and be like, what did you like about it?"},{"startTime":997.813,"endTime":999.133,"body":"Or maybe it'll turn into a survey."},{"startTime":999.133,"endTime":1002.253,"body":"I don't know I wanna be able to"},{"startTime":999.133,"endTime":1002.253,"body":"do that as the product person,"},{"startTime":1002.583,"endTime":1003.783,"body":"obviously bigger companies."},{"startTime":1004.023,"endTime":1006.663,"body":"They delegate that off"},{"startTime":1004.023,"endTime":1006.663,"body":"to the UI D UX designer."},{"startTime":1006.663,"endTime":1006.753,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1007.083,"endTime":1010.983,"body":"Which like, certainly they"},{"startTime":1007.083,"endTime":1010.983,"body":"have the skills to do it."},{"startTime":1011.203,"endTime":1015.373,"body":"A lot of UI UX designers are very"},{"startTime":1011.203,"endTime":1015.373,"body":"artistic, so they can work with these"},{"startTime":1015.373,"endTime":1017.773,"body":"tools way more efficiently than I can."},{"startTime":1018.403,"endTime":1021.913,"body":"But basically what I'm trying to do is"},{"startTime":1018.403,"endTime":1021.913,"body":"I'm trying to separate the two phases."},{"startTime":1021.913,"endTime":1024.463,"body":"I'm trying to separate the"},{"startTime":1021.913,"endTime":1024.463,"body":"look, what should we build"},{"startTime":1024.963,"endTime":1026.223,"body":"from, how should we build it?"},{"startTime":1026.793,"endTime":1029.483,"body":"And I'm trying to separate those"},{"startTime":1026.793,"endTime":1029.483,"body":"two so that , what should we build?"},{"startTime":1029.663,"endTime":1030.653,"body":"Like what, just what you said?"},{"startTime":1030.653,"endTime":1034.403,"body":"Oh, well I passed the UI UX design off"},{"startTime":1030.653,"endTime":1034.403,"body":"the developers and they came up with"},{"startTime":1034.433,"endTime":1036.383,"body":"like something that it's functional."},{"startTime":1036.383,"endTime":1040.373,"body":"It works, but like maybe it's"},{"startTime":1036.383,"endTime":1040.373,"body":"maybe the, the flow is clunky."},{"startTime":1040.423,"endTime":1043.453,"body":"Maybe it's not apparent to the user"},{"startTime":1040.423,"endTime":1043.453,"body":"what they should click next or what"},{"startTime":1043.453,"endTime":1045.103,"body":"what they're doing in different steps."},{"startTime":1045.373,"endTime":1048.453,"body":"You know, that kind stuff, all"},{"startTime":1045.373,"endTime":1048.453,"body":"that stuff , it's all inside the"},{"startTime":1048.453,"endTime":1050.233,"body":"expertise of the U I U X designer."},{"startTime":1050.733,"endTime":1053.703,"body":"I would expect all that"},{"startTime":1050.733,"endTime":1053.703,"body":"to be done all already."},{"startTime":1053.703,"endTime":1059.003,"body":"Before you start saying, how can I"},{"startTime":1053.703,"endTime":1059.003,"body":"architect this all into my larger"},{"startTime":1059.008,"endTime":1063.913,"body":"suite of software , if you were lucky"},{"startTime":1059.008,"endTime":1063.913,"body":"enough to have a person like that."},{"startTime":1064.573,"endTime":1066.733,"body":"Engage on your team from the beginning."},{"startTime":1066.763,"endTime":1067.983,"body":"Mm-hmm  perfect."},{"startTime":1067.988,"endTime":1068.523,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":1068.523,"endTime":1070.583,"body":"Yeah oftentimes you"},{"startTime":1068.523,"endTime":1070.583,"body":"don't have that luxury."},{"startTime":1070.633,"endTime":1074.888,"body":"no, no and I don't, I am"},{"startTime":1070.633,"endTime":1074.888,"body":"going to do it right, right."},{"startTime":1075.188,"endTime":1077.428,"body":"I am gonna, but I'm obviously not."},{"startTime":1077.428,"endTime":1080.363,"body":"Everyone's like, oh, Brian, I'm"},{"startTime":1077.428,"endTime":1080.363,"body":"too busy or whatever like I'm,"},{"startTime":1080.573,"endTime":1081.563,"body":"there's legitimate reasons."},{"startTime":1081.673,"endTime":1082.613,"body":"Right, right, right."},{"startTime":1082.733,"endTime":1083.093,"body":"But."},{"startTime":1083.593,"endTime":1088.113,"body":"Do something  the markup idea is really,"},{"startTime":1083.593,"endTime":1088.113,"body":"really good get users to click on it,"},{"startTime":1088.113,"endTime":1090.213,"body":"not just internal people to the team."},{"startTime":1090.213,"endTime":1090.393,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1090.393,"endTime":1093.873,"body":"Just get users, click on it and they'll,"},{"startTime":1090.393,"endTime":1093.873,"body":"they'll come up with suggestions, take"},{"startTime":1093.873,"endTime":1099.043,"body":"those in, build them it into the solution"},{"startTime":1093.873,"endTime":1099.043,"body":"that is the right way to do it but again,"},{"startTime":1099.048,"endTime":1101.503,"body":"I've not seen that too often, sadly"},{"startTime":1102.063,"endTime":1105.663,"body":"so yeah, that's, that's another"},{"startTime":1102.063,"endTime":1105.663,"body":"type of shared resource."},{"startTime":1105.873,"endTime":1108.173,"body":"Yeah what are some of the"},{"startTime":1105.873,"endTime":1108.173,"body":"other types that you've seen?"},{"startTime":1108.223,"endTime":1109.543,"body":", testers, testers?"},{"startTime":1109.543,"endTime":1110.443,"body":"Yeah, hands down."},{"startTime":1110.493,"endTime":1115.443,"body":"The normal people I see split between"},{"startTime":1110.493,"endTime":1115.443,"body":"teams are testers, either just purely"},{"startTime":1115.443,"endTime":1119.313,"body":"test, like manual testers, whatever,"},{"startTime":1115.443,"endTime":1119.313,"body":"like they just don't have they, the"},{"startTime":1119.373,"endTime":1122.973,"body":"organization just when, given the"},{"startTime":1119.373,"endTime":1122.973,"body":"choice between putting their dollars"},{"startTime":1123.243,"endTime":1130.083,"body":"into two out of $3 into a tester or"},{"startTime":1123.243,"endTime":1130.083,"body":"three outta $3 into another developer,"},{"startTime":1130.233,"endTime":1133.173,"body":"they will choose to hire another"},{"startTime":1130.233,"endTime":1133.173,"body":"developer, a hundred percent of."},{"startTime":1133.758,"endTime":1134.718,"body":"You don't even think about it."},{"startTime":1134.898,"endTime":1140.138,"body":"So what you find out is the organization"},{"startTime":1134.898,"endTime":1140.138,"body":"becomes strapped for testers and"},{"startTime":1140.143,"endTime":1144.278,"body":"that the few remaining testers that"},{"startTime":1140.143,"endTime":1144.278,"body":"still work there or whatever,  right."},{"startTime":1144.488,"endTime":1149.248,"body":"That's usually the, the way this happens"},{"startTime":1144.488,"endTime":1149.248,"body":"they become asked to kind of straddle"},{"startTime":1149.678,"endTime":1153.698,"body":"more than one team and more than one"},{"startTime":1149.678,"endTime":1153.698,"body":"product, more than one backlog, right."},{"startTime":1153.698,"endTime":1158.968,"body":"Mm-hmm,  more than one product owner and"},{"startTime":1153.698,"endTime":1158.968,"body":"I'm not even digging in now to segments"},{"startTime":1158.968,"endTime":1162.838,"body":"of testing, like the, the, the people"},{"startTime":1158.968,"endTime":1162.838,"body":"that just do automation, the people that"},{"startTime":1162.898,"endTime":1167.068,"body":"just do testing performance testing, that"},{"startTime":1162.898,"endTime":1167.068,"body":"kind of stuff, stress testing, penetration"},{"startTime":1167.068,"endTime":1168.658,"body":"testing, not even digging into that."},{"startTime":1168.748,"endTime":1168.838,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1168.838,"endTime":1172.419,"body":"Cause you get even  more teams, less"},{"startTime":1168.838,"endTime":1172.419,"body":"resources when you go further into a"},{"startTime":1172.424,"endTime":1175.408,"body":"speciality of testing, but yeah, testers,"},{"startTime":1175.798,"endTime":1179.638,"body":"definitely testers and, and"},{"startTime":1175.798,"endTime":1179.638,"body":"certain types, even more so, right."},{"startTime":1179.878,"endTime":1186.028,"body":"To your point automation or performance"},{"startTime":1179.878,"endTime":1186.028,"body":"testers, they focus just on benchmarking"},{"startTime":1186.033,"endTime":1189.808,"body":"and making sure that the solution"},{"startTime":1186.033,"endTime":1189.808,"body":"is meeting performance needs."},{"startTime":1189.908,"endTime":1194.828,"body":"Those guys aren't typically engaged"},{"startTime":1189.908,"endTime":1194.828,"body":"early on because the contrary argument"},{"startTime":1194.828,"endTime":1196.808,"body":"to that is we don't have a solution yet."},{"startTime":1196.808,"endTime":1197.528,"body":"We don't need 'em yet."},{"startTime":1197.678,"endTime":1197.828,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1197.858,"endTime":1198.458,"body":"What are they gonna do?"},{"startTime":1198.458,"endTime":1199.358,"body":"Performance tests."},{"startTime":1199.358,"endTime":1199.448,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1199.448,"endTime":1199.658,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1199.658,"endTime":1204.548,"body":"Wait, and that's a mistake cuz if you"},{"startTime":1199.658,"endTime":1204.548,"body":"bring them in early on, they will be"},{"startTime":1204.548,"endTime":1206.738,"body":"able to provide input on how to build it."},{"startTime":1206.738,"endTime":1207.248,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1207.348,"endTime":1210.918,"body":"So that it does perform . Then it"},{"startTime":1207.348,"endTime":1210.918,"body":"becomes a validation exercise for them."},{"startTime":1211.418,"endTime":1214.708,"body":". Yeah, this is this one is this"},{"startTime":1211.418,"endTime":1214.708,"body":"one's trying to put out a fire from"},{"startTime":1214.708,"endTime":1217.303,"body":"inside the burning building right"},{"startTime":1214.708,"endTime":1217.303,"body":"here, . This one is . I don't, I"},{"startTime":1217.308,"endTime":1218.623,"body":"have strong opinions about this one."},{"startTime":1218.623,"endTime":1221.113,"body":"I don't know how much progress"},{"startTime":1218.623,"endTime":1221.113,"body":"we're gonna make on this one because"},{"startTime":1221.163,"endTime":1225.903,"body":"organizations either get this one or"},{"startTime":1221.163,"endTime":1225.903,"body":"they don't get this one , it also depends"},{"startTime":1225.903,"endTime":1227.223,"body":"on who's running the organizations."},{"startTime":1227.353,"endTime":1230.653,"body":"Whether they see value in having"},{"startTime":1227.353,"endTime":1230.653,"body":"professional testers or not."},{"startTime":1231.153,"endTime":1233.433,"body":"I don't know I struggle with this one."},{"startTime":1233.613,"endTime":1238.023,"body":"That's it's part of why I got out of"},{"startTime":1233.613,"endTime":1238.023,"body":"testing as a discipline, as a career path"},{"startTime":1238.423,"endTime":1241.843,"body":"there's just a lot of organizations out"},{"startTime":1238.423,"endTime":1241.843,"body":"there that they don't, they like quality."},{"startTime":1241.843,"endTime":1243.283,"body":"They don't just don't care about quality."},{"startTime":1243.283,"endTime":1246.103,"body":"They don't I mean, they, I mean,"},{"startTime":1243.283,"endTime":1246.103,"body":"you can't say they don't care."},{"startTime":1246.103,"endTime":1248.023,"body":"They'll be like, oh, Brian,"},{"startTime":1246.103,"endTime":1248.023,"body":"you're just being ridiculous."},{"startTime":1248.023,"endTime":1249.043,"body":"You're just being incendiary."},{"startTime":1249.043,"endTime":1250.363,"body":"We totally care about quality."},{"startTime":1250.363,"endTime":1250.723,"body":"I, mm."},{"startTime":1251.353,"endTime":1252.433,"body":"Do you care about quality first?"},{"startTime":1252.703,"endTime":1254.173,"body":"Uh, well, no, right."},{"startTime":1254.233,"endTime":1254.533,"body":"No."},{"startTime":1254.533,"endTime":1257.023,"body":"We need to weigh quality against"},{"startTime":1254.533,"endTime":1257.023,"body":"these other things that we."},{"startTime":1257.828,"endTime":1261.098,"body":"and decide that speed to market"},{"startTime":1257.828,"endTime":1261.098,"body":"is more important and quality,"},{"startTime":1261.188,"endTime":1263.558,"body":"which, which, which, which cases."},{"startTime":1263.738,"endTime":1266.548,"body":"Yeah, this goes back to vision,"},{"startTime":1263.738,"endTime":1266.548,"body":"communicating your vision."},{"startTime":1266.998,"endTime":1268.678,"body":"If you go to a tester, oh boy."},{"startTime":1268.678,"endTime":1273.378,"body":"No, we're on a tangent of a te  Brian's"},{"startTime":1268.678,"endTime":1273.378,"body":"on the, my background's in testing"},{"startTime":1273.378,"endTime":1276.078,"body":"for anyone listening to this, like"},{"startTime":1273.378,"endTime":1276.078,"body":"that's where I came up through"},{"startTime":1276.318,"endTime":1277.698,"body":"QA teams in early in my career."},{"startTime":1277.698,"endTime":1281.133,"body":"So that's why I can kind of speak"},{"startTime":1277.698,"endTime":1281.133,"body":"on this from an informed opinion, as"},{"startTime":1281.133,"endTime":1282.513,"body":"opposed to the rest of the podcast."},{"startTime":1282.993,"endTime":1283.073,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":1283.323,"endTime":1283.593,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1283.743,"endTime":1284.943,"body":"What is that uninformed opinion?"},{"startTime":1284.943,"endTime":1285.353,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1285.358,"endTime":1285.483,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1285.483,"endTime":1287.493,"body":"My enjoy my unformed opinions."},{"startTime":1287.773,"endTime":1294.133,"body":"Most organizations don't come at it"},{"startTime":1287.773,"endTime":1294.133,"body":"from laying out the vision to say well,"},{"startTime":1294.138,"endTime":1296.443,"body":"look we have X amount of dollars, right."},{"startTime":1296.893,"endTime":1300.403,"body":"And speed to market is more"},{"startTime":1296.893,"endTime":1300.403,"body":"important in these instances."},{"startTime":1300.613,"endTime":1301.243,"body":"So."},{"startTime":1301.988,"endTime":1304.348,"body":"Yes, we're gonna cut back on testing."},{"startTime":1304.618,"endTime":1304.708,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":1305.008,"endTime":1308.158,"body":"or yes, we're not gonna hire"},{"startTime":1305.008,"endTime":1308.158,"body":"this other tester and you"},{"startTime":1308.158,"endTime":1310.288,"body":"know, you, are it one person?"},{"startTime":1310.288,"endTime":1315.768,"body":"Is it so how can we most effectively"},{"startTime":1310.288,"endTime":1315.768,"body":"utilize our one test resource"},{"startTime":1316.338,"endTime":1317.718,"body":"when we have 20 developers?"},{"startTime":1317.748,"endTime":1319.758,"body":"Like what, what's the"},{"startTime":1317.748,"endTime":1319.758,"body":"best way to use that."},{"startTime":1319.758,"endTime":1319.998,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1320.088,"endTime":1321.408,"body":"And they have to have real conversations."},{"startTime":1321.408,"endTime":1322.758,"body":"They, and they do the best they can."},{"startTime":1322.908,"endTime":1324.288,"body":"Now, is that a great ratio?"},{"startTime":1324.348,"endTime":1324.828,"body":"Probably not."},{"startTime":1325.328,"endTime":1326.338,"body":"it's not organization."},{"startTime":1326.338,"endTime":1328.108,"body":"That's, that's already"},{"startTime":1326.338,"endTime":1328.108,"body":"asking those questions."},{"startTime":1328.258,"endTime":1331.008,"body":"They probably are not in a good spot."},{"startTime":1331.008,"endTime":1331.998,"body":"but you're right."},{"startTime":1331.998,"endTime":1335.108,"body":"So when you are discussing"},{"startTime":1331.998,"endTime":1335.108,"body":"a feature, let's go back."},{"startTime":1335.108,"endTime":1336.398,"body":"Let's go back to what"},{"startTime":1335.108,"endTime":1336.398,"body":"we were talking about."},{"startTime":1336.878,"endTime":1341.478,"body":"You're in the world of bringing"},{"startTime":1336.878,"endTime":1341.478,"body":"your solution architect, your dev"},{"startTime":1341.478,"endTime":1345.078,"body":"lead, whatever tech lead with your"},{"startTime":1341.478,"endTime":1345.078,"body":"product person, into a discussion."},{"startTime":1345.288,"endTime":1347.088,"body":"You're talking about building"},{"startTime":1345.288,"endTime":1347.088,"body":"your feature for the first time."},{"startTime":1348.018,"endTime":1352.278,"body":"That's a great place for your tester"},{"startTime":1348.018,"endTime":1352.278,"body":"to be because they've probably"},{"startTime":1352.278,"endTime":1356.898,"body":"already talked with the business"},{"startTime":1352.278,"endTime":1356.898,"body":"about why you're building things."},{"startTime":1357.588,"endTime":1362.178,"body":"They're exploring how customers"},{"startTime":1357.588,"endTime":1362.178,"body":"are gonna be using things and they"},{"startTime":1362.178,"endTime":1366.793,"body":"can speak to your development team"},{"startTime":1362.178,"endTime":1366.793,"body":"about what tests should we run?"},{"startTime":1367.003,"endTime":1367.093,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1367.093,"endTime":1370.193,"body":"So that your developers again,"},{"startTime":1367.093,"endTime":1370.193,"body":"I'm, I'm making a lot of"},{"startTime":1370.253,"endTime":1371.513,"body":"assumptions that you're doing good."},{"startTime":1371.513,"endTime":1374.183,"body":"A unit testing, you're"},{"startTime":1371.513,"endTime":1374.183,"body":"doing some automation."},{"startTime":1374.333,"endTime":1374.783,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1374.783,"endTime":1377.903,"body":"You're doing some, you're getting"},{"startTime":1374.783,"endTime":1377.903,"body":"your, like your U a T phase."},{"startTime":1377.903,"endTime":1379.013,"body":"You pass off to the customers."},{"startTime":1379.193,"endTime":1382.193,"body":"There's a bit of thinking like the"},{"startTime":1379.193,"endTime":1382.193,"body":"customer when you're architecting"},{"startTime":1382.193,"endTime":1386.333,"body":"your tests, some of that stuff's"},{"startTime":1382.193,"endTime":1386.333,"body":"gonna be built into unit tests."},{"startTime":1386.573,"endTime":1386.633,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1386.663,"endTime":1386.903,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1386.993,"endTime":1390.353,"body":"So the tester is bringing"},{"startTime":1386.993,"endTime":1390.353,"body":"an analytical mindset."},{"startTime":1391.343,"endTime":1394.193,"body":"To how the customer's gonna be"},{"startTime":1391.343,"endTime":1394.193,"body":"using things and bringing those"},{"startTime":1394.193,"endTime":1395.813,"body":"tests to the early discussions."},{"startTime":1396.443,"endTime":1399.533,"body":"How many teams have you worked"},{"startTime":1396.443,"endTime":1399.533,"body":"on where that has happened?"},{"startTime":1399.533,"endTime":1400.133,"body":"Very few."},{"startTime":1400.193,"endTime":1401.003,"body":"This is the problem."},{"startTime":1401.153,"endTime":1401.843,"body":"Very few."},{"startTime":1401.848,"endTime":1402.743,"body":"This is exact."},{"startTime":1402.983,"endTime":1404.423,"body":"It's not like we don't know what to do."},{"startTime":1404.453,"endTime":1406.723,"body":"We know what to do very few."},{"startTime":1406.753,"endTime":1412.343,"body":"And also my, my also like dagger in"},{"startTime":1406.753,"endTime":1412.343,"body":"the side my little jab is also none"},{"startTime":1412.373,"endTime":1413.963,"body":"that have been run by development."},{"startTime":1414.393,"endTime":1419.218,"body":"Because the development wing views"},{"startTime":1414.393,"endTime":1419.218,"body":"testers as just check boxes that the"},{"startTime":1419.218,"endTime":1424.248,"body":"functionality works as speced out"},{"startTime":1419.218,"endTime":1424.248,"body":"as written and that that's your job."},{"startTime":1424.298,"endTime":1429.368,"body":"You're a, after the widgets get done with"},{"startTime":1424.298,"endTime":1429.368,"body":"the entire line, you check them at the"},{"startTime":1429.373,"endTime":1431.468,"body":"end of the line that expect for quality."},{"startTime":1431.468,"endTime":1432.088,"body":"That's the end."},{"startTime":1432.093,"endTime":1435.098,"body":"That's what they view your role as."},{"startTime":1435.683,"endTime":1439.713,"body":"which is kind of wild to me when I"},{"startTime":1435.683,"endTime":1439.713,"body":"think like wild is isn't that what"},{"startTime":1439.713,"endTime":1442.803,"body":"the auto manufacturers did way back"},{"startTime":1439.713,"endTime":1442.803,"body":"well, I mean, if you think about"},{"startTime":1442.808,"endTime":1447.573,"body":"it, it's kind of like, I always push"},{"startTime":1442.808,"endTime":1447.573,"body":"back on this successfully or not."},{"startTime":1447.633,"endTime":1448.323,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":1448.533,"endTime":1449.403,"body":"I always push back on this."},{"startTime":1449.403,"endTime":1453.003,"body":"Cause I was like, it's kind of"},{"startTime":1449.403,"endTime":1453.003,"body":"wild that so many testers are"},{"startTime":1453.003,"endTime":1454.233,"body":"rolled under the development."},{"startTime":1454.733,"endTime":1459.213,"body":"because professional testing and"},{"startTime":1454.733,"endTime":1459.213,"body":"professional software engineering"},{"startTime":1459.263,"endTime":1460.223,"body":"they're not the same career field."},{"startTime":1460.223,"endTime":1465.963,"body":"So why would you put a developer , over"},{"startTime":1460.223,"endTime":1465.963,"body":"in a supervisory position to professional"},{"startTime":1465.963,"endTime":1469.863,"body":"testers and expect that they're"},{"startTime":1465.963,"endTime":1469.863,"body":"going to do a good job under that?"},{"startTime":1469.863,"endTime":1475.873,"body":"It's, it's very strange I like feel"},{"startTime":1469.863,"endTime":1475.873,"body":"free to like, I promise not to deploy"},{"startTime":1475.878,"endTime":1477.883,"body":"my bot farm at you in the comments."},{"startTime":1477.973,"endTime":1478.033,"body":"all."},{"startTime":1478.533,"endTime":1479.463,"body":"I might cut that out."},{"startTime":1479.468,"endTime":1480.003,"body":"That's too good."},{"startTime":1480.573,"endTime":1485.213,"body":"Oh, no, I promise to question critically"},{"startTime":1480.573,"endTime":1485.213,"body":"if you wanna beat me up on that one in"},{"startTime":1485.218,"endTime":1490.308,"body":"the comments cuz  again, my experience"},{"startTime":1485.218,"endTime":1490.308,"body":"the people that are in charge of, Hey."},{"startTime":1490.668,"endTime":1494.848,"body":"I'm gonna jam out this widget as fast as"},{"startTime":1490.668,"endTime":1494.848,"body":"possible because the businesses beat me"},{"startTime":1494.848,"endTime":1497.998,"body":"up for deadlines, especially development"},{"startTime":1494.848,"endTime":1497.998,"body":"departments, where they don't have strong"},{"startTime":1497.998,"endTime":1501.878,"body":"product at their company oh boy, I almost"},{"startTime":1497.998,"endTime":1501.878,"body":"want to go out on a limb and say you"},{"startTime":1501.883,"endTime":1503.908,"body":"got no business supervising testers."},{"startTime":1504.008,"endTime":1506.978,"body":"I almost wanna say that testers should"},{"startTime":1504.008,"endTime":1506.978,"body":"be over here in the product area."},{"startTime":1507.458,"endTime":1511.958,"body":"Supervised by the product people,"},{"startTime":1507.458,"endTime":1511.958,"body":"because you, you want people testing"},{"startTime":1511.958,"endTime":1516.138,"body":"your software that are representing"},{"startTime":1511.958,"endTime":1516.138,"body":"the users of your software."},{"startTime":1516.738,"endTime":1517.698,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":1517.998,"endTime":1522.978,"body":"I mean, how else would you guarantee"},{"startTime":1517.998,"endTime":1522.978,"body":"a fit for purpose on this solution?"},{"startTime":1523.478,"endTime":1527.288,"body":"Otherwise it becomes a,"},{"startTime":1523.478,"endTime":1527.288,"body":"another vanity metric actually."},{"startTime":1527.288,"endTime":1530.438,"body":"Not, well, it, it does"},{"startTime":1527.288,"endTime":1530.438,"body":"because it's it's well, it's"},{"startTime":1530.498,"endTime":1532.778,"body":"implemented as specified, right?"},{"startTime":1532.783,"endTime":1532.888,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1532.893,"endTime":1534.068,"body":"It meets the ACS."},{"startTime":1534.098,"endTime":1534.308,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1534.308,"endTime":1535.828,"body":"So, so what, right."},{"startTime":1535.828,"endTime":1536.788,"body":"It meets the ACS."},{"startTime":1536.788,"endTime":1536.848,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1536.848,"endTime":1538.618,"body":"And it, it's not effective."},{"startTime":1538.798,"endTime":1538.948,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1538.948,"endTime":1541.978,"body":"That's the thing, because it"},{"startTime":1538.948,"endTime":1541.978,"body":"doesn't meet the fit for purpose."},{"startTime":1542.968,"endTime":1545.638,"body":"That purview doesn't come from"},{"startTime":1542.968,"endTime":1545.638,"body":"the development team that has"},{"startTime":1545.638,"endTime":1546.808,"body":"to come from the business side."},{"startTime":1546.808,"endTime":1546.958,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1547.288,"endTime":1549.808,"body":"Cause they're the ones that are"},{"startTime":1547.288,"endTime":1549.808,"body":"the consumers of this product."},{"startTime":1549.898,"endTime":1550.228,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1550.828,"endTime":1552.718,"body":"So we're, we're halfway"},{"startTime":1550.828,"endTime":1552.718,"body":"through this podcast."},{"startTime":1552.768,"endTime":1557.868,"body":"Let's flip to fixes, like what can we"},{"startTime":1552.768,"endTime":1557.868,"body":"do to solve some of these issues, some"},{"startTime":1557.868,"endTime":1560.358,"body":"of these constraints on resources."},{"startTime":1560.778,"endTime":1565.998,"body":"But, but before we flip to real,"},{"startTime":1560.778,"endTime":1565.998,"body":"real fixes,  let let's, let's flip"},{"startTime":1565.998,"endTime":1572.558,"body":"to fixes that are fixes in disguise"},{"startTime":1565.998,"endTime":1572.558,"body":"fo fo fix pseudo fixes, pseudo fixes."},{"startTime":1573.058,"endTime":1573.768,"body":"I like fo fixes."},{"startTime":1573.773,"endTime":1575.598,"body":"I like fo fixes cause it's two Fs in row."},{"startTime":1575.603,"endTime":1576.858,"body":"It it's tough to say."},{"startTime":1577.143,"endTime":1577.203,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1577.703,"endTime":1581.313,"body":"Plus we get bonus points for using a"},{"startTime":1577.703,"endTime":1581.313,"body":"French word because fo yeah, I know."},{"startTime":1581.313,"endTime":1581.763,"body":"I know, right?"},{"startTime":1581.763,"endTime":1584.663,"body":"Yeah., I'm a big fan of using French"},{"startTime":1581.763,"endTime":1584.663,"body":"word because another thing that we"},{"startTime":1584.663,"endTime":1590.063,"body":"didn't talk about for shared resources"},{"startTime":1584.663,"endTime":1590.063,"body":"was, Hey, here we are, was agile"},{"startTime":1590.063,"endTime":1596.023,"body":"coaches because  you hire an agile"},{"startTime":1590.063,"endTime":1596.023,"body":"coach and now , your agility is fixed."},{"startTime":1596.203,"endTime":1600.643,"body":"You, they, you hire an agile coach and"},{"startTime":1596.203,"endTime":1600.643,"body":"they're gonna coach across 10 teams."},{"startTime":1601.123,"endTime":1601.453,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1601.453,"endTime":1605.353,"body":"And they're gonna fix all your"},{"startTime":1601.453,"endTime":1605.353,"body":"issues cuz you have one and"},{"startTime":1605.358,"endTime":1606.763,"body":"they're shared across 10 teams."},{"startTime":1607.263,"endTime":1607.653,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1607.703,"endTime":1611.313,"body":"That's, that's a real that, I mean, I"},{"startTime":1607.703,"endTime":1611.313,"body":"don't feel like I'm stretching very far."},{"startTime":1611.433,"endTime":1612.363,"body":"You're not at all."},{"startTime":1612.573,"endTime":1612.843,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1612.843,"endTime":1615.753,"body":"Because I think the, how,"},{"startTime":1612.843,"endTime":1615.753,"body":"how should I phrase this?"},{"startTime":1615.963,"endTime":1622.583,"body":"I think the typical I'll say it narrow"},{"startTime":1615.963,"endTime":1622.583,"body":"minded kind of viewpoint is why we"},{"startTime":1622.588,"endTime":1624.173,"body":"rather to spend the money on developers."},{"startTime":1624.213,"endTime":1626.033,"body":"So they're not doing things right."},{"startTime":1626.093,"endTime":1630.073,"body":"Well, coach will come in there and just"},{"startTime":1626.093,"endTime":1630.073,"body":"kinda Metaphorically snap 'em around a"},{"startTime":1630.073,"endTime":1633.163,"body":"little bit, make sure they're doing the"},{"startTime":1630.073,"endTime":1633.163,"body":"right thing and then they can take off."},{"startTime":1633.523,"endTime":1636.133,"body":"Well, what do you think happens"},{"startTime":1633.523,"endTime":1636.133,"body":"when they take off, right."},{"startTime":1636.613,"endTime":1641.633,"body":"Chaos ensues so yeah, there is, there,"},{"startTime":1636.613,"endTime":1641.633,"body":"there is this thing too, with, with the"},{"startTime":1641.633,"endTime":1646.383,"body":"agile coaches that put 'em on 10 teams,"},{"startTime":1641.633,"endTime":1646.383,"body":"put 'em on as many teams as you can."},{"startTime":1646.383,"endTime":1646.773,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1646.778,"endTime":1651.818,"body":"Right and they're not there to not only"},{"startTime":1646.778,"endTime":1651.818,"body":"implement good practices, but to make sure"},{"startTime":1651.818,"endTime":1654.098,"body":"that those are being sustainably followed."},{"startTime":1654.098,"endTime":1654.278,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1654.548,"endTime":1654.818,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1654.818,"endTime":1657.208,"body":"That that's a, that's a huge issue yeah."},{"startTime":1657.213,"endTime":1660.048,"body":"Bring that one up because"},{"startTime":1657.213,"endTime":1660.048,"body":"organizations would be hesitant"},{"startTime":1660.048,"endTime":1661.998,"body":"to hire a permanent scrum master."},{"startTime":1661.998,"endTime":1663.678,"body":"So like one team won scrum master."},{"startTime":1663.678,"endTime":1663.888,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1663.888,"endTime":1665.718,"body":"Cause they were like, oh,"},{"startTime":1663.888,"endTime":1665.718,"body":"that's a lot of overhead."},{"startTime":1665.718,"endTime":1668.838,"body":"I don't wanna spend that money cuz I don't"},{"startTime":1665.718,"endTime":1668.838,"body":"understand what I get for that money."},{"startTime":1668.838,"endTime":1672.038,"body":"And , they're not producing code,"},{"startTime":1668.838,"endTime":1672.038,"body":"so what are they really producing?"},{"startTime":1672.038,"endTime":1673.988,"body":"You know, that, that"},{"startTime":1672.038,"endTime":1673.988,"body":"kind of viewpoint, right?"},{"startTime":1674.888,"endTime":1675.458,"body":"Yeah, exactly that."},{"startTime":1675.488,"endTime":1675.608,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1675.608,"endTime":1675.609,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1675.898,"endTime":1679.628,"body":"But also organizations like that also"},{"startTime":1675.898,"endTime":1679.628,"body":"turn around and they have layers and"},{"startTime":1679.628,"endTime":1681.428,"body":"layers and layers of middle managers."},{"startTime":1681.488,"endTime":1685.568,"body":"Of course they do project managers,"},{"startTime":1681.488,"endTime":1685.568,"body":"directors of the Accordia go look at"},{"startTime":1685.568,"endTime":1689.468,"body":"the HR department, like a coordinator"},{"startTime":1685.568,"endTime":1689.468,"body":"of this director of that manager"},{"startTime":1689.473,"endTime":1692.348,"body":"of this HR VP, whatever, like sure."},{"startTime":1692.648,"endTime":1695.168,"body":"It's, it's 17 people in the HR depart."},{"startTime":1695.573,"endTime":1699.623,"body":"And then worried about adding a scrum"},{"startTime":1695.573,"endTime":1699.623,"body":"master to two development teams, right?"},{"startTime":1699.683,"endTime":1700.013,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1700.013,"endTime":1702.203,"body":"Those organizations are"},{"startTime":1700.013,"endTime":1702.203,"body":"like called top heavy."},{"startTime":1702.293,"endTime":1702.803,"body":"Unbelievable."},{"startTime":1702.863,"endTime":1703.133,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1703.183,"endTime":1706.123,"body":"The reason I bring that, that up about"},{"startTime":1703.183,"endTime":1706.123,"body":"agile coaching is because like one of"},{"startTime":1706.123,"endTime":1710.003,"body":"the fixes that we talked about before"},{"startTime":1706.123,"endTime":1710.003,"body":"we were thinking about doing this topic"},{"startTime":1710.033,"endTime":1715.133,"body":"for the podcast today was center of"},{"startTime":1710.033,"endTime":1715.133,"body":"excellence type models, where you put"},{"startTime":1715.133,"endTime":1718.913,"body":"all your agile coaches in the center"},{"startTime":1715.133,"endTime":1718.913,"body":"of excellence, and then you deploy"},{"startTime":1718.913,"endTime":1725.953,"body":"them to kind of float around your"},{"startTime":1718.913,"endTime":1725.953,"body":"organization to float like a butterfly."},{"startTime":1725.958,"endTime":1727.218,"body":"I don't know what, yeah."},{"startTime":1727.218,"endTime":1730.698,"body":"They basically go around and inject"},{"startTime":1727.218,"endTime":1730.698,"body":"their expertise here and there."},{"startTime":1730.698,"endTime":1730.788,"body":"And."},{"startTime":1731.673,"endTime":1733.923,"body":"So it kind of, yeah,"},{"startTime":1731.673,"endTime":1733.923,"body":"it reminds me of bees."},{"startTime":1733.923,"endTime":1734.313,"body":"Really."},{"startTime":1734.313,"endTime":1737.043,"body":"You just go to the next flower"},{"startTime":1734.313,"endTime":1737.043,"body":"and do something over there"},{"startTime":1737.043,"endTime":1738.363,"body":"and fly over somewhere else."},{"startTime":1738.513,"endTime":1740.493,"body":"Is that, is that, is"},{"startTime":1738.513,"endTime":1740.493,"body":"that not a good model?"},{"startTime":1740.493,"endTime":1741.813,"body":"What is the issue with that model?"},{"startTime":1741.813,"endTime":1745.283,"body":"It seems like it in theory"},{"startTime":1741.813,"endTime":1745.283,"body":"it seems like a good model."},{"startTime":1746.243,"endTime":1750.383,"body":"In theory, it would seem like a good"},{"startTime":1746.243,"endTime":1750.383,"body":"model as underpinned by the numbers also."},{"startTime":1750.383,"endTime":1750.623,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1750.623,"endTime":1753.263,"body":"Cause you only need a few of these"},{"startTime":1750.623,"endTime":1753.263,"body":"people that are just floating around."},{"startTime":1753.293,"endTime":1753.593,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1754.283,"endTime":1758.603,"body":"But in practice, what happens is"},{"startTime":1754.283,"endTime":1758.603,"body":"they go, they, before they make a"},{"startTime":1758.603,"endTime":1762.683,"body":"difference, they're out of there because"},{"startTime":1758.603,"endTime":1762.683,"body":"they're being pulled to another team."},{"startTime":1762.773,"endTime":1762.893,"body":"Oh."},{"startTime":1762.923,"endTime":1766.613,"body":"So they go in and they, they prescribe"},{"startTime":1762.923,"endTime":1766.613,"body":"and they say, well, thou shall do these"},{"startTime":1766.613,"endTime":1769.373,"body":"things cuz it's, that's how we do agile."},{"startTime":1769.673,"endTime":1773.553,"body":"Right and then they take off, well,"},{"startTime":1769.673,"endTime":1773.553,"body":"the teams kind of, sort of limp"},{"startTime":1773.558,"endTime":1777.343,"body":"along, depending on what guidance"},{"startTime":1773.558,"endTime":1777.343,"body":"they get from their scrum masters"},{"startTime":1777.348,"endTime":1778.813,"body":"and, and product owners, et cetera."},{"startTime":1779.188,"endTime":1782.188,"body":"Not really following good"},{"startTime":1779.188,"endTime":1782.188,"body":"practices consistently."},{"startTime":1782.248,"endTime":1782.428,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1782.428,"endTime":1785.128,"body":"Certainly not evolving cuz"},{"startTime":1782.428,"endTime":1785.128,"body":"it's not like one and done."},{"startTime":1785.188,"endTime":1788.368,"body":"You've gotta inspect and every"},{"startTime":1785.188,"endTime":1788.368,"body":"team's unique and all of that stuff."},{"startTime":1788.428,"endTime":1791.068,"body":"Mm-hmm  so you've gotta follow"},{"startTime":1788.428,"endTime":1791.068,"body":"what, what works for this team?"},{"startTime":1791.068,"endTime":1792.808,"body":"Not what was initially started."},{"startTime":1792.808,"endTime":1794.608,"body":"Doesn't necessarily have to stay that way."},{"startTime":1794.938,"endTime":1795.328,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1795.598,"endTime":1798.208,"body":"But that mentality is not"},{"startTime":1795.598,"endTime":1798.208,"body":"present with the coach gone."},{"startTime":1798.478,"endTime":1800.728,"body":"So people just simply check boxes."},{"startTime":1800.758,"endTime":1803.258,"body":"How what's the I know we're cutting"},{"startTime":1800.758,"endTime":1803.258,"body":"way ahead to the next topic."},{"startTime":1803.288,"endTime":1805.388,"body":"What what's what's the fix for that?"},{"startTime":1805.748,"endTime":1809.588,"body":"Like is the fix to give the"},{"startTime":1805.748,"endTime":1809.588,"body":"individual traveling agile coach,"},{"startTime":1809.618,"endTime":1810.788,"body":"I'm gonna call it Travis suitcase."},{"startTime":1810.788,"endTime":1811.508,"body":"Agile coach suitcase."},{"startTime":1811.958,"endTime":1812.228,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1812.488,"endTime":1816.548,"body":"Suitcase agile coach is, is the fix to"},{"startTime":1812.488,"endTime":1816.548,"body":"give the suitcase agile coach the choice"},{"startTime":1816.548,"endTime":1822.038,"body":"of when to jump or is it fixed to give"},{"startTime":1816.548,"endTime":1822.038,"body":"the team the thumbs up thumbs down of"},{"startTime":1822.038,"endTime":1825.988,"body":"like, we feel confident to take like or"},{"startTime":1822.038,"endTime":1825.988,"body":"do you build some other score in there?"},{"startTime":1825.988,"endTime":1828.688,"body":"What I understand the problem"},{"startTime":1825.988,"endTime":1828.688,"body":"from what you just said, I"},{"startTime":1828.688,"endTime":1829.498,"body":"should have started with this."},{"startTime":1829.998,"endTime":1833.35,"body":"So, what I heard was  that"},{"startTime":1829.998,"endTime":1833.35,"body":"was annoying things that yes."},{"startTime":1834.168,"endTime":1836.591,"body":"And you annoying things that"},{"startTime":1834.168,"endTime":1836.591,"body":"Brian hears when he hears things"},{"startTime":1836.921,"endTime":1840.521,"body":"I think the, the fix, there would be some"},{"startTime":1836.921,"endTime":1840.521,"body":"kind of agreement between both the team"},{"startTime":1840.581,"endTime":1844.751,"body":"who's being coached and the coach for"},{"startTime":1840.581,"endTime":1844.751,"body":"the team to say, I'm ready to move on."},{"startTime":1845.251,"endTime":1845.761,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1846.691,"endTime":1846.961,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1847.351,"endTime":1847.591,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1847.591,"endTime":1850.261,"body":"So, and then, and then not"},{"startTime":1847.591,"endTime":1850.261,"body":"moving that coach until that"},{"startTime":1850.261,"endTime":1852.061,"body":"agreement can come together."},{"startTime":1852.961,"endTime":1853.141,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1853.141,"endTime":1854.551,"body":"I think that that is sound."},{"startTime":1854.681,"endTime":1857.086,"body":"I also think that it's important"},{"startTime":1854.681,"endTime":1857.086,"body":"to realize there is not."},{"startTime":1857.971,"endTime":1861.541,"body":"Step function step, you know"},{"startTime":1857.971,"endTime":1861.541,"body":"okay, one day the coach is gone."},{"startTime":1861.721,"endTime":1861.841,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1861.851,"endTime":1864.601,"body":"If you do that, you're receiving a lot."},{"startTime":1864.751,"endTime":1865.111,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1865.201,"endTime":1865.261,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1865.261,"endTime":1867.841,"body":"And so you don't rip"},{"startTime":1865.261,"endTime":1867.841,"body":"the bandaid like that."},{"startTime":1867.901,"endTime":1871.981,"body":"I think it's up to the coach to say,"},{"startTime":1867.901,"endTime":1871.981,"body":"make the team less and less dependent"},{"startTime":1872.011,"endTime":1876.906,"body":"on them or anybody else see if they"},{"startTime":1872.011,"endTime":1876.906,"body":"can really self manage mm-hmm,  get"},{"startTime":1876.906,"endTime":1881.406,"body":"them to that point and then start"},{"startTime":1876.906,"endTime":1881.406,"body":"deploying some of the tactics that"},{"startTime":1881.406,"endTime":1883.436,"body":"coaches do come in and don't speak."},{"startTime":1883.916,"endTime":1887.626,"body":"I have mic  issues sometimes, you know?"},{"startTime":1887.866,"endTime":1887.986,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1887.986,"endTime":1889.636,"body":"And see who wants to jump in."},{"startTime":1889.696,"endTime":1889.816,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1889.821,"endTime":1890.056,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1890.056,"endTime":1891.916,"body":"Give them the option to speak up first."},{"startTime":1892.246,"endTime":1893.266,"body":"Those kinds of things."},{"startTime":1893.386,"endTime":1898.366,"body":"Don't show up to a standup one day"},{"startTime":1893.386,"endTime":1898.366,"body":"and then see how it went, right?"},{"startTime":1898.371,"endTime":1898.386,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1898.726,"endTime":1898.816,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1898.816,"endTime":1902.436,"body":"Or you have to ask people or you can come"},{"startTime":1898.816,"endTime":1902.436,"body":"in late and see if they're just waiting"},{"startTime":1902.436,"endTime":1906.096,"body":"around for someone to show up or do they"},{"startTime":1902.436,"endTime":1906.096,"body":"say, all right, let's just get going."},{"startTime":1906.101,"endTime":1906.306,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1906.306,"endTime":1908.826,"body":"It's been five minutes and"},{"startTime":1906.306,"endTime":1908.826,"body":"or three minutes, whatever."},{"startTime":1908.826,"endTime":1912.246,"body":"And they just go, those are the"},{"startTime":1908.826,"endTime":1912.246,"body":"sorts of things, but they take time."},{"startTime":1912.246,"endTime":1912.306,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1912.306,"endTime":1917.541,"body":"And so if the coach understands how to"},{"startTime":1912.306,"endTime":1917.541,"body":"do that, They can eventually start coming"},{"startTime":1917.601,"endTime":1919.611,"body":"out of some of these events mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":1919.821,"endTime":1923.541,"body":"And then they can say, okay,"},{"startTime":1919.821,"endTime":1923.541,"body":"I'm gonna come in, put me"},{"startTime":1923.546,"endTime":1924.891,"body":"as optional on these things."},{"startTime":1924.891,"endTime":1926.901,"body":"And I'm, I may jump in at any point."},{"startTime":1927.831,"endTime":1929.001,"body":"So now they're gone."},{"startTime":1929.121,"endTime":1929.181,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1929.181,"endTime":1930.141,"body":"But not really gone."},{"startTime":1930.171,"endTime":1933.741,"body":"And occasionally they will randomly"},{"startTime":1930.171,"endTime":1933.741,"body":"jump in to see if the team is still"},{"startTime":1934.011,"endTime":1936.411,"body":"practicing sound principles or not."},{"startTime":1936.831,"endTime":1939.751,"body":"So it's not a they're"},{"startTime":1936.831,"endTime":1939.751,"body":"gone they're still there."},{"startTime":1939.851,"endTime":1942.371,"body":"Do you think you can come up"},{"startTime":1939.851,"endTime":1942.371,"body":"with a curriculum for that?"},{"startTime":1942.421,"endTime":1944.701,"body":"I mean, there's probably a"},{"startTime":1942.421,"endTime":1944.701,"body":"standard assuming you're using"},{"startTime":1944.706,"endTime":1946.891,"body":"scrum, I mean, you could be using"},{"startTime":1944.706,"endTime":1946.891,"body":"combine doesn't really matter."},{"startTime":1947.161,"endTime":1947.401,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1947.401,"endTime":1951.601,"body":"Do you think there are things that you"},{"startTime":1947.401,"endTime":1951.601,"body":"could say is the team stepping up to"},{"startTime":1951.601,"endTime":1956.101,"body":"the developer stepping up to lead their"},{"startTime":1951.601,"endTime":1956.101,"body":"own standup or is the team identifying"},{"startTime":1956.101,"endTime":1957.601,"body":"blockers that they shouldn't be working?"},{"startTime":1957.601,"endTime":1961.481,"body":"And I mean, it probably would be a"},{"startTime":1957.601,"endTime":1961.481,"body":"lot of things, honestly, but do you"},{"startTime":1961.486,"endTime":1964.111,"body":"think there's , I almost wanna, I"},{"startTime":1961.486,"endTime":1964.111,"body":"almost wanna say standardized, but I."},{"startTime":1964.891,"endTime":1968.161,"body":"It like, do you think there's a standard"},{"startTime":1964.891,"endTime":1968.161,"body":"list of things to like, look for like,"},{"startTime":1968.161,"endTime":1974.691,"body":"Hey, if the team's doing 90% of these"},{"startTime":1968.161,"endTime":1974.691,"body":"things on their own, when I'm not"},{"startTime":1974.691,"endTime":1976.671,"body":"in the room, I'm ready to move on."},{"startTime":1977.541,"endTime":1978.081,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1978.081,"endTime":1981.341,"body":"There, there are several versions"},{"startTime":1978.081,"endTime":1981.341,"body":"of you know, these kind of"},{"startTime":1981.401,"endTime":1982.451,"body":"health checks, if you like."},{"startTime":1982.481,"endTime":1982.691,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1982.961,"endTime":1985.151,"body":"So there's just a few of"},{"startTime":1982.961,"endTime":1985.151,"body":"those that you can run."},{"startTime":1985.391,"endTime":1987.311,"body":"And some of those are really, really good."},{"startTime":1987.401,"endTime":1989.611,"body":"Mm-hmm  , they don't"},{"startTime":1987.401,"endTime":1989.611,"body":"blatantly ask the question."},{"startTime":1989.931,"endTime":1990.261,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1990.381,"endTime":1994.156,"body":"They, they kind of skirt around , the"},{"startTime":1990.381,"endTime":1994.156,"body":"topic, but that's what they're driving at."},{"startTime":1994.156,"endTime":1994.276,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1994.406,"endTime":1997.636,"body":"Yeah so you could do those things, but"},{"startTime":1994.406,"endTime":1997.636,"body":"the trend is what's important here."},{"startTime":1997.636,"endTime":1998.776,"body":"Not a snapshot, right?"},{"startTime":1998.776,"endTime":1998.986,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1999.126,"endTime":1999.566,"body":"So yeah,"},{"startTime":1999.846,"endTime":2000.866,"body":"we should put that together."},{"startTime":2000.896,"endTime":2003.536,"body":"That should, that could be a really"},{"startTime":2000.896,"endTime":2003.536,"body":"good podcast to be like, Hey, these"},{"startTime":2003.536,"endTime":2006.566,"body":"are the things to look for to know"},{"startTime":2003.536,"endTime":2006.566,"body":"that your teams are pulling ahead."},{"startTime":2006.986,"endTime":2007.316,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2007.316,"endTime":2010.701,"body":"As far as pulling head laying behind"},{"startTime":2007.316,"endTime":2010.701,"body":"I mean, everything's different,"},{"startTime":2010.701,"endTime":2011.961,"body":"but like they're improving or not."},{"startTime":2011.961,"endTime":2014.811,"body":"Let's say generally, if your"},{"startTime":2011.961,"endTime":2014.811,"body":"teams are doing this, they're,"},{"startTime":2014.816,"endTime":2016.401,"body":"they're getting more advanced."},{"startTime":2016.401,"endTime":2020.281,"body":"I brought this up recently at my work I"},{"startTime":2016.401,"endTime":2020.281,"body":"was like,  I eventually, cause I, and I"},{"startTime":2020.281,"endTime":2021.571,"body":"talked about this on the previous podcast."},{"startTime":2021.571,"endTime":2022.951,"body":"I was like, I eventually would like."},{"startTime":2023.551,"endTime":2030.421,"body":"To, as a product person on the team to"},{"startTime":2023.551,"endTime":2030.421,"body":"not have to drive during refinements"},{"startTime":2030.511,"endTime":2035.491,"body":"or sprint review or not reviews sprint"},{"startTime":2030.511,"endTime":2035.491,"body":"plannings refinements, basically"},{"startTime":2035.491,"endTime":2038.886,"body":"anytime a, a, a work item has to be"},{"startTime":2035.491,"endTime":2038.886,"body":"brought up on the screen and  things"},{"startTime":2038.886,"endTime":2044.086,"body":"be changed in the work item, acceptance"},{"startTime":2038.886,"endTime":2044.086,"body":"criteria as a whatever person I want,"},{"startTime":2044.086,"endTime":2045.466,"body":"whatever, like that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":2045.516,"endTime":2051.236,"body":"If the team has the like what I think"},{"startTime":2045.516,"endTime":2051.236,"body":"of as business analysis skill that"},{"startTime":2051.241,"endTime":2055.886,"body":"I have, even if they are distributed"},{"startTime":2051.241,"endTime":2055.886,"body":"between like, this person knows to"},{"startTime":2055.891,"endTime":2060.236,"body":"always ask for what user this person"},{"startTime":2055.891,"endTime":2060.236,"body":"always asks, what the user wants."},{"startTime":2060.246,"endTime":2063.156,"body":"Even if the team has it distributed,"},{"startTime":2060.246,"endTime":2063.156,"body":"where they can put it together, this"},{"startTime":2063.156,"endTime":2066.066,"body":"person has a really good eye for"},{"startTime":2063.156,"endTime":2066.066,"body":"breaking down acceptance criteria."},{"startTime":2066.606,"endTime":2069.186,"body":"This person has a really good"},{"startTime":2066.606,"endTime":2069.186,"body":"eye for splitting stories."},{"startTime":2069.191,"endTime":2069.996,"body":"Mm-hmm,  that kind of thing."},{"startTime":2070.206,"endTime":2074.081,"body":"If the team combined has all those"},{"startTime":2070.206,"endTime":2074.081,"body":"skills that would be for me on a"},{"startTime":2074.081,"endTime":2077.441,"body":"checklist, I would want the team to be"},{"startTime":2074.081,"endTime":2077.441,"body":"like, the team can take total ownership"},{"startTime":2077.441,"endTime":2080.081,"body":"of writing stories, grooming, right."},{"startTime":2080.081,"endTime":2082.721,"body":"Grooming, maintaining,"},{"startTime":2080.081,"endTime":2082.721,"body":"whatever you wanna call it."},{"startTime":2082.771,"endTime":2083.331,"body":"Refining."},{"startTime":2083.331,"endTime":2083.411,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2083.416,"endTime":2084.521,"body":"Refining breaking."},{"startTime":2084.611,"endTime":2084.971,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2085.091,"endTime":2085.661,"body":"No, you're right."},{"startTime":2085.661,"endTime":2086.021,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":2086.021,"endTime":2089.956,"body":"So those are, those are great points to"},{"startTime":2086.021,"endTime":2089.956,"body":"put on a a health assessment, if you like,"},{"startTime":2089.956,"endTime":2091.906,"body":"or healthy agility type of assessment."},{"startTime":2091.906,"endTime":2094.136,"body":"Right and there are so many to your point."},{"startTime":2094.136,"endTime":2096.236,"body":"I mean, literally dozens of these things."},{"startTime":2096.336,"endTime":2097.626,"body":", yeah, a lot I would imagine."},{"startTime":2097.631,"endTime":2101.886,"body":"So you could do that and as you"},{"startTime":2097.631,"endTime":2101.886,"body":"course should be doing that, right?"},{"startTime":2101.886,"endTime":2102.006,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2102.396,"endTime":2103.206,"body":"Do it up front."},{"startTime":2103.236,"endTime":2104.316,"body":"Do it a little while later."},{"startTime":2104.321,"endTime":2108.426,"body":"But again, my point earlier is it's"},{"startTime":2104.321,"endTime":2108.426,"body":"the trend that drives the decision to."},{"startTime":2109.041,"endTime":2110.211,"body":"pull away slowly."},{"startTime":2110.271,"endTime":2112.611,"body":"Mm-hmm  so it's again, not"},{"startTime":2110.271,"endTime":2112.611,"body":"a step function, right."},{"startTime":2112.611,"endTime":2114.501,"body":"You don't just leave one day mm-hmm"},{"startTime":2114.851,"endTime":2117.911,"body":", but yeah, that, so , those are some of the"},{"startTime":2114.851,"endTime":2117.911,"body":"tools and I think that's an excellent idea"},{"startTime":2117.911,"endTime":2119.771,"body":"for us to put a list like that together."},{"startTime":2119.831,"endTime":2122.291,"body":"Would you expose this to the team?"},{"startTime":2122.296,"endTime":2123.911,"body":"Would you show them their grades?"},{"startTime":2123.961,"endTime":2123.962,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2124.211,"endTime":2127.331,"body":"While you're, so if you're like"},{"startTime":2124.211,"endTime":2127.331,"body":"going back to the, like we already"},{"startTime":2127.331,"endTime":2130.931,"body":"said , well, you don't want to have"},{"startTime":2127.331,"endTime":2130.931,"body":"a, a COE where like, all your talent"},{"startTime":2130.931,"endTime":2135.141,"body":"is in that COE and they kind of just"},{"startTime":2130.931,"endTime":2135.141,"body":"rockstar into your they just show up."},{"startTime":2135.191,"endTime":2137.981,"body":"I was gonna show up drunk"},{"startTime":2135.191,"endTime":2137.981,"body":"is what I was gonna say."},{"startTime":2138.581,"endTime":2139.931,"body":"Like they just show yeah."},{"startTime":2139.931,"endTime":2143.111,"body":"With a cowboy hat and sunglasses on"},{"startTime":2139.931,"endTime":2143.111,"body":"like hung over, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2143.111,"endTime":2145.911,"body":"They just show up and like, ah,"},{"startTime":2143.111,"endTime":2145.911,"body":"just do this, that's not what we're"},{"startTime":2145.911,"endTime":2147.171,"body":"no, that's not what we're saying."},{"startTime":2147.351,"endTime":2148.191,"body":"you don't want that."},{"startTime":2148.196,"endTime":2151.821,"body":"You want someone who's actively"},{"startTime":2148.196,"endTime":2151.821,"body":"engaged, but they're borrowed"},{"startTime":2151.821,"endTime":2153.231,"body":"from a different group, basically."},{"startTime":2153.281,"endTime":2155.531,"body":"But when you're borrowed from a different."},{"startTime":2156.521,"endTime":2161.291,"body":"The problem is you can be taken"},{"startTime":2156.521,"endTime":2161.291,"body":"back by that group prematurely."},{"startTime":2161.351,"endTime":2162.971,"body":"That's kind of where we're"},{"startTime":2161.351,"endTime":2162.971,"body":"going with this, right."},{"startTime":2163.211,"endTime":2166.731,"body":"In order to get around that, to"},{"startTime":2163.211,"endTime":2166.731,"body":"avoid that kind of make it be an"},{"startTime":2166.731,"endTime":2173.021,"body":"agreement between the two that Hey,"},{"startTime":2166.731,"endTime":2173.021,"body":"I see the, the team has progressed."},{"startTime":2173.591,"endTime":2178.521,"body":"Here's the list that I'm using  to"},{"startTime":2173.591,"endTime":2178.521,"body":"satisfy that the team has progressed."},{"startTime":2178.881,"endTime":2180.531,"body":"I was gonna say to prove, to illustrate."},{"startTime":2180.591,"endTime":2180.921,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2180.921,"endTime":2181.131,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2181.131,"endTime":2182.571,"body":"To illustrate that the"},{"startTime":2181.131,"endTime":2182.571,"body":"team has progressed."},{"startTime":2182.576,"endTime":2182.751,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2183.251,"endTime":2185.741,"body":"The things that we agree on, the"},{"startTime":2183.251,"endTime":2185.741,"body":"team agrees that they progress here."},{"startTime":2185.891,"endTime":2190.451,"body":"I agree that we've, since I'm the"},{"startTime":2185.891,"endTime":2190.451,"body":"expert on this, I agree the team agrees."},{"startTime":2190.451,"endTime":2192.401,"body":"They think they, they can handle"},{"startTime":2190.451,"endTime":2192.401,"body":"this stuff on their, yeah."},{"startTime":2192.461,"endTime":2195.071,"body":"Basically the team's committing"},{"startTime":2192.461,"endTime":2195.071,"body":"to handle this stuff on their own."},{"startTime":2195.401,"endTime":2197.621,"body":"The agile coach is just affirming that."},{"startTime":2197.711,"endTime":2198.131,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2198.131,"endTime":2199.421,"body":"I think they can do it."},{"startTime":2199.481,"endTime":2203.396,"body":"And then once you agree on enough"},{"startTime":2199.481,"endTime":2203.396,"body":"categories, you can cut out."},{"startTime":2203.396,"endTime":2203.996,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":2204.566,"endTime":2204.896,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2204.896,"endTime":2207.086,"body":"I mean, there are tools out"},{"startTime":2204.896,"endTime":2207.086,"body":"there that you can use for this."},{"startTime":2207.086,"endTime":2209.676,"body":"Right so just going back, would"},{"startTime":2207.086,"endTime":2209.676,"body":"I expose this to the team?"},{"startTime":2209.676,"endTime":2210.246,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2210.246,"endTime":2210.456,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2210.456,"endTime":2212.166,"body":"Because they need to know"},{"startTime":2210.456,"endTime":2212.166,"body":"where their weaknesses are."},{"startTime":2212.226,"endTime":2215.456,"body":"I don't think I've ever seen anything"},{"startTime":2212.226,"endTime":2215.456,"body":"like this this would be really neat"},{"startTime":2215.506,"endTime":2219.046,"body":"to see from a team's perspective,"},{"startTime":2215.506,"endTime":2219.046,"body":"it'd be really neat to see these"},{"startTime":2219.046,"endTime":2222.106,"body":"are the things that the organization"},{"startTime":2219.046,"endTime":2222.106,"body":"expects you to take ownership of."},{"startTime":2222.256,"endTime":2222.466,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2222.466,"endTime":2223.996,"body":"And agility, radar of sorts."},{"startTime":2224.626,"endTime":2224.716,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2224.716,"endTime":2226.786,"body":"As long as you're being anonymous,"},{"startTime":2224.716,"endTime":2226.786,"body":"you're not calling anybody."},{"startTime":2227.551,"endTime":2228.971,"body":"But cuz it is the team, right?"},{"startTime":2228.971,"endTime":2229.891,"body":"No, they they'd be general."},{"startTime":2229.891,"endTime":2231.811,"body":"They'd be, they'd be fairly general."},{"startTime":2231.931,"endTime":2232.021,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2232.021,"endTime":2234.421,"body":"You know, the team understands"},{"startTime":2232.021,"endTime":2234.421,"body":"how split stories and when, when"},{"startTime":2234.421,"endTime":2235.741,"body":"it's important to, you know yeah."},{"startTime":2235.741,"endTime":2237.691,"body":"And I'd phrase it differently."},{"startTime":2237.721,"endTime":2238.021,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2238.021,"endTime":2241.951,"body":"Have we suffered from stories that"},{"startTime":2238.021,"endTime":2241.951,"body":"are too large zombie stories that"},{"startTime":2242.371,"endTime":2245.791,"body":"get done in a sprint, keep coming"},{"startTime":2242.371,"endTime":2245.791,"body":"across those kinds of things."},{"startTime":2246.151,"endTime":2249.231,"body":"But so yeah, you have to tailor"},{"startTime":2246.151,"endTime":2249.231,"body":"it  to the team, but there's"},{"startTime":2249.231,"endTime":2250.431,"body":"not a lot of tailoring needed."},{"startTime":2250.431,"endTime":2252.621,"body":"You could probably take one"},{"startTime":2250.431,"endTime":2252.621,"body":"of those templates and quickly"},{"startTime":2252.931,"endTime":2254.461,"body":"massage it into something usable."},{"startTime":2254.461,"endTime":2255.941,"body":"But the trend is important here yeah."},{"startTime":2255.971,"endTime":2258.191,"body":"You've gotta establish"},{"startTime":2255.971,"endTime":2258.191,"body":"X number of data points."},{"startTime":2258.251,"endTime":2258.551,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2258.971,"endTime":2260.291,"body":"Define X doesn't matter."},{"startTime":2260.411,"endTime":2260.561,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2260.591,"endTime":2262.031,"body":"How long has the team been around?"},{"startTime":2262.361,"endTime":2263.861,"body":"How long have they worked with each other?"},{"startTime":2263.921,"endTime":2264.941,"body":"Are they brand new?"},{"startTime":2265.251,"endTime":2269.001,"body":"And is the agile coach really"},{"startTime":2265.251,"endTime":2269.001,"body":"training people to work in an"},{"startTime":2269.001,"endTime":2270.591,"body":"agile way for the first time ever?"},{"startTime":2270.621,"endTime":2270.771,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2271.281,"endTime":2272.241,"body":"It's a lot of variables."},{"startTime":2272.556,"endTime":2275.406,"body":"But I look for three to four data points."},{"startTime":2275.436,"endTime":2279.706,"body":"Mm-hmm  so do this kind of an"},{"startTime":2275.436,"endTime":2279.706,"body":"assessment three to four times, and"},{"startTime":2279.706,"endTime":2282.406,"body":"you will see a marked difference"},{"startTime":2279.706,"endTime":2282.406,"body":"between the last two, always."},{"startTime":2282.406,"endTime":2282.466,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2282.796,"endTime":2284.536,"body":"If you're not, you're not"},{"startTime":2282.796,"endTime":2284.536,"body":"doing your job, right."},{"startTime":2284.536,"endTime":2285.046,"body":"Basically."},{"startTime":2285.346,"endTime":2290.966,"body":"But when you get to the point where"},{"startTime":2285.346,"endTime":2290.966,"body":"on that, that health radar agile"},{"startTime":2290.966,"endTime":2295.076,"body":"health radar, let's say you're scoring"},{"startTime":2290.966,"endTime":2295.076,"body":"from one to five and I'm thinking"},{"startTime":2295.076,"endTime":2297.116,"body":"about a graph that has spokes."},{"startTime":2297.196,"endTime":2301.066,"body":"And the team is between a"},{"startTime":2297.196,"endTime":2301.066,"body":"four and a five you're there."},{"startTime":2301.366,"endTime":2301.606,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2301.876,"endTime":2304.456,"body":"Right now there might"},{"startTime":2301.876,"endTime":2304.456,"body":"be some spokes where."},{"startTime":2304.876,"endTime":2305.476,"body":"They're short."},{"startTime":2306.316,"endTime":2307.696,"body":"So that should be the focus."},{"startTime":2307.696,"endTime":2311.236,"body":"So you're not pulling out completely,"},{"startTime":2307.696,"endTime":2311.236,"body":"but you are emphasizing that."},{"startTime":2311.446,"endTime":2313.786,"body":"So just for those kinds of"},{"startTime":2311.446,"endTime":2313.786,"body":"events you could show up."},{"startTime":2313.846,"endTime":2314.056,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2314.166,"endTime":2317.646,"body":"And make sure that you're"},{"startTime":2314.166,"endTime":2317.646,"body":"bolstering their capabilities."},{"startTime":2317.676,"endTime":2317.976,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2317.981,"endTime":2318.036,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2318.041,"endTime":2318.696,"body":"Just there."},{"startTime":2318.906,"endTime":2322.146,"body":"you also brought up something bef"},{"startTime":2318.906,"endTime":2322.146,"body":"while we were planning this about"},{"startTime":2322.146,"endTime":2325.886,"body":"the COE that I had never thought"},{"startTime":2322.146,"endTime":2325.886,"body":"about with the COE, having agile"},{"startTime":2325.886,"endTime":2329.186,"body":"coaches, scrum, masters, whatever,"},{"startTime":2325.886,"endTime":2329.186,"body":"in your COE I I've seen that before."},{"startTime":2329.216,"endTime":2330.991,"body":"It kind of makes sense to me as well."},{"startTime":2331.291,"endTime":2332.131,"body":"Cause it kind of like a."},{"startTime":2332.386,"endTime":2336.646,"body":"The COE is kinda like a high powered,"},{"startTime":2332.386,"endTime":2336.646,"body":"like community of practice, honestly,"},{"startTime":2336.646,"endTime":2339.576,"body":"to me, like just organizationally"},{"startTime":2336.646,"endTime":2339.576,"body":"codified community I don't know"},{"startTime":2339.576,"endTime":2343.826,"body":"if I really like am signed on to"},{"startTime":2339.576,"endTime":2343.826,"body":"the idea of a COE organizationally"},{"startTime":2343.826,"endTime":2345.236,"body":"and keeping the resources there."},{"startTime":2345.236,"endTime":2348.536,"body":"They kind of, I don't think they really"},{"startTime":2345.236,"endTime":2348.536,"body":"belong there, but also I'm cutting ahead."},{"startTime":2348.726,"endTime":2353.406,"body":"but you also were like, oh maybe a COE"},{"startTime":2348.726,"endTime":2353.406,"body":"can be applied to product people or a COE"},{"startTime":2353.526,"endTime":2355.236,"body":"can be applied to architects or whatever."},{"startTime":2355.476,"endTime":2358.406,"body":"And then when you brought that up"},{"startTime":2355.476,"endTime":2358.406,"body":"I, I started to question everything"},{"startTime":2358.406,"endTime":2360.981,"body":"about my life no, I started to"},{"startTime":2358.406,"endTime":2360.981,"body":"question like, wait, you can't"},{"startTime":2360.981,"endTime":2362.361,"body":"have product like product people."},{"startTime":2362.361,"endTime":2368.391,"body":"Can't be in a, a separate org over here"},{"startTime":2362.361,"endTime":2368.391,"body":"and borrowed out to the team members."},{"startTime":2368.391,"endTime":2369.771,"body":"That's not the way product works."},{"startTime":2370.491,"endTime":2372.471,"body":"So that's a really good point, right."},{"startTime":2372.471,"endTime":2373.971,"body":"About product owners specifically."},{"startTime":2374.031,"endTime":2374.151,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2374.181,"endTime":2375.921,"body":"We were talking about different roles."},{"startTime":2375.951,"endTime":2376.071,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2376.071,"endTime":2379.191,"body":"Maybe BAS also forming their"},{"startTime":2376.071,"endTime":2379.191,"body":"own community of practice."},{"startTime":2379.191,"endTime":2382.211,"body":"Mm-hmm  whichever with product"},{"startTime":2379.191,"endTime":2382.211,"body":"specifically, when you think"},{"startTime":2382.241,"endTime":2384.371,"body":"about what a product owners."},{"startTime":2385.211,"endTime":2386.741,"body":"core skills are, right."},{"startTime":2386.741,"endTime":2390.441,"body":"Yeah and, and leaving aside the"},{"startTime":2386.741,"endTime":2390.441,"body":"domain you're working in right."},{"startTime":2390.441,"endTime":2391.521,"body":"For the time being, right."},{"startTime":2391.881,"endTime":2395.721,"body":"So that core skills are really"},{"startTime":2391.881,"endTime":2395.721,"body":"analyzing the needs of the business."},{"startTime":2395.931,"endTime":2400.111,"body":"Mm-hmm,  understanding the market,"},{"startTime":2395.931,"endTime":2400.111,"body":"understanding the user, the what"},{"startTime":2400.111,"endTime":2402.181,"body":"and the why in terms of the product."},{"startTime":2402.186,"endTime":2402.571,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":2402.571,"endTime":2407.071,"body":"Leaving aside the, how, if they understand"},{"startTime":2402.571,"endTime":2407.071,"body":"that, and if they have those core skills,"},{"startTime":2407.071,"endTime":2408.781,"body":"they can be applied to any project."},{"startTime":2409.591,"endTime":2412.621,"body":"So if we agree on that, it"},{"startTime":2409.591,"endTime":2412.621,"body":"means that you could have a"},{"startTime":2412.621,"endTime":2414.031,"body":"bunch of these people together."},{"startTime":2414.181,"endTime":2416.761,"body":"That're constantly"},{"startTime":2414.181,"endTime":2416.761,"body":"sharpening their tool set."},{"startTime":2416.911,"endTime":2417.031,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2417.061,"endTime":2422.701,"body":"But they can be seconded to a team"},{"startTime":2417.061,"endTime":2422.701,"body":"to go in and quickly put these"},{"startTime":2422.701,"endTime":2423.871,"body":"place, these things in place."},{"startTime":2423.871,"endTime":2424.141,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2424.141,"endTime":2425.281,"body":"So what is the market?"},{"startTime":2425.341,"endTime":2427.231,"body":"Do we understand that who is our customer?"},{"startTime":2427.231,"endTime":2428.131,"body":"Do we understand that?"},{"startTime":2428.131,"endTime":2429.151,"body":"Who are the personas?"},{"startTime":2429.151,"endTime":2430.201,"body":"Do we understand those?"},{"startTime":2430.201,"endTime":2430.501,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2431.041,"endTime":2435.091,"body":"I think that, that there is some merit"},{"startTime":2431.041,"endTime":2435.091,"body":"there now that still leaves a Delta."},{"startTime":2435.571,"endTime":2435.901,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2435.901,"endTime":2439.741,"body":"And, and the Delta is specific"},{"startTime":2435.901,"endTime":2439.741,"body":"knowledge to the domain."},{"startTime":2440.311,"endTime":2441.481,"body":"Because they may not have that."},{"startTime":2441.481,"endTime":2441.601,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2441.601,"endTime":2444.241,"body":"Probably aren't expected to have"},{"startTime":2441.601,"endTime":2444.241,"body":"in more than one domain anyway."},{"startTime":2444.301,"endTime":2444.511,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2444.961,"endTime":2448.531,"body":"However, I believe that"},{"startTime":2444.961,"endTime":2448.531,"body":"Delta could be bridged by."},{"startTime":2449.031,"endTime":2451.581,"body":"getting S meze to help you sure."},{"startTime":2451.581,"endTime":2454.341,"body":"These people belong in the user community."},{"startTime":2454.401,"endTime":2454.671,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2454.761,"endTime":2456.171,"body":"They've been there for a while."},{"startTime":2456.201,"endTime":2458.391,"body":"They are the end users,"},{"startTime":2456.201,"endTime":2458.391,"body":"consumers of the product."},{"startTime":2458.661,"endTime":2460.911,"body":"They're your S meze enroll"},{"startTime":2458.661,"endTime":2460.911,"body":"those into your team."},{"startTime":2461.151,"endTime":2462.681,"body":"There's no reason why you can't do that."},{"startTime":2462.711,"endTime":2468.061,"body":"Mm-hmm  so I would say, yeah, there is"},{"startTime":2462.711,"endTime":2468.061,"body":"merit in having a community of excellence,"},{"startTime":2468.061,"endTime":2469.923,"body":"community of practice of product owners."},{"startTime":2470.343,"endTime":2471.153,"body":"I think it can work."},{"startTime":2472.003,"endTime":2472.943,"body":"I'm not, I'm not convinced."},{"startTime":2472.943,"endTime":2473.423,"body":"You're not convinced yet."},{"startTime":2473.423,"endTime":2473.426,"body":"I'm not convinced."},{"startTime":2474.073,"endTime":2477.913,"body":"No, because like, like I think the,"},{"startTime":2474.073,"endTime":2477.913,"body":"this goes into the, I don't know"},{"startTime":2477.913,"endTime":2479.203,"body":"if I'm cutting ahead for this one."},{"startTime":2479.203,"endTime":2481.753,"body":"Like it goes into the fixes"},{"startTime":2479.203,"endTime":2481.753,"body":", what, like gimme permanent"},{"startTime":2481.758,"endTime":2483.073,"body":"fixes for finite resources."},{"startTime":2483.283,"endTime":2486.913,"body":"The first permanent fix for finite"},{"startTime":2483.283,"endTime":2486.913,"body":"resources and honestly, in any of"},{"startTime":2486.918,"endTime":2491.233,"body":"these categories, either of finite,"},{"startTime":2486.918,"endTime":2491.233,"body":"which we never came back to finite"},{"startTime":2491.443,"endTime":2496.903,"body":"dev team members or dev teams like,"},{"startTime":2491.443,"endTime":2496.903,"body":"oh, organization only has one dev."},{"startTime":2497.563,"endTime":2500.803,"body":"Like dream up all the things you"},{"startTime":2497.563,"endTime":2500.803,"body":"wanna do in the world, but there's"},{"startTime":2500.803,"endTime":2502.543,"body":"only one dev team to do it at a time."},{"startTime":2502.923,"endTime":2507.213,"body":"The fix it's not even really fix I'm,"},{"startTime":2502.923,"endTime":2507.213,"body":"there's some people gonna be out there"},{"startTime":2507.213,"endTime":2512.453,"body":"like screaming into their ear, ear, their"},{"startTime":2507.213,"endTime":2512.453,"body":"AirPods or whatever, the fix is ruthless"},{"startTime":2512.453,"endTime":2514.883,"body":"prioritization for all this stuff."},{"startTime":2515.393,"endTime":2516.383,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":2516.383,"endTime":2521.333,"body":"In that case, you're basically"},{"startTime":2516.383,"endTime":2521.333,"body":"constrained on your capacity to deliver."},{"startTime":2521.853,"endTime":2522.203,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2522.203,"endTime":2522.204,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2522.209,"endTime":2523.343,"body":"You have one team, right."},{"startTime":2523.733,"endTime":2527.483,"body":"Dream up everything you want, but"},{"startTime":2523.733,"endTime":2527.483,"body":"then just slice it so that you're"},{"startTime":2527.488,"endTime":2531.623,"body":"picking the most valuable piece of"},{"startTime":2527.488,"endTime":2531.623,"body":"that whole dream and deliver that."},{"startTime":2531.623,"endTime":2533.603,"body":"Cuz that's all you've"},{"startTime":2531.623,"endTime":2533.603,"body":"got capacity to deliver."},{"startTime":2533.603,"endTime":2534.353,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":2534.353,"endTime":2534.803,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":2534.863,"endTime":2535.043,"body":"Totally."},{"startTime":2535.073,"endTime":2537.533,"body":"Is, is this a,  I'll build you"},{"startTime":2535.073,"endTime":2537.533,"body":"a car in any color you want."},{"startTime":2537.533,"endTime":2538.643,"body":"As long as that color's black."},{"startTime":2539.208,"endTime":2543.408,"body":"That's this conversation and the"},{"startTime":2539.208,"endTime":2543.408,"body":"business will say, well, I want green."},{"startTime":2543.888,"endTime":2544.818,"body":"You can't have green."},{"startTime":2545.488,"endTime":2547.248,"body":"You can have a very,"},{"startTime":2545.488,"endTime":2547.248,"body":"very dark shade of green."},{"startTime":2547.253,"endTime":2547.938,"body":"It looks like black."},{"startTime":2547.968,"endTime":2548.058,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2548.063,"endTime":2548.688,"body":"It looks like black."},{"startTime":2548.688,"endTime":2549.468,"body":"Well, I'll call green."},{"startTime":2549.958,"endTime":2551.718,"body":"marketing but oh, that's not acceptable."},{"startTime":2551.718,"endTime":2552.078,"body":"I want green."},{"startTime":2552.083,"endTime":2552.408,"body":"Well, okay."},{"startTime":2552.738,"endTime":2552.858,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2552.858,"endTime":2554.178,"body":"Well, I need more money."},{"startTime":2554.388,"endTime":2555.588,"body":"You need to hire a new team."},{"startTime":2555.798,"endTime":2556.698,"body":"Well, I can't do that."},{"startTime":2556.698,"endTime":2561.168,"body":"Well then black, you get black, every"},{"startTime":2556.698,"endTime":2561.168,"body":"single be black now, but when we get"},{"startTime":2561.168,"endTime":2564.198,"body":"to the point where I have another"},{"startTime":2561.168,"endTime":2564.198,"body":"team, we'll come out and spread."},{"startTime":2564.228,"endTime":2564.888,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2564.988,"endTime":2567.538,"body":"we're kind of back to the beginning"},{"startTime":2564.988,"endTime":2567.538,"body":"of the podcast where we were talking"},{"startTime":2567.538,"endTime":2570.138,"body":"about like some of this stuff is the"},{"startTime":2567.538,"endTime":2570.138,"body":"structure of your organization or"},{"startTime":2570.138,"endTime":2572.778,"body":"maybe that was be, maybe it was some"},{"startTime":2570.138,"endTime":2572.778,"body":"of our prep where we were talking"},{"startTime":2572.778,"endTime":2574.158,"body":"about the structure organization."},{"startTime":2574.188,"endTime":2577.618,"body":"Yeah some of this, you have"},{"startTime":2574.188,"endTime":2577.618,"body":"to present back to the leader."},{"startTime":2578.098,"endTime":2580.218,"body":"No, I really am talking"},{"startTime":2578.098,"endTime":2580.218,"body":"about the leadership yes."},{"startTime":2580.318,"endTime":2581.698,"body":"Of your I'm not talking"},{"startTime":2580.318,"endTime":2581.698,"body":"about the management."},{"startTime":2581.698,"endTime":2582.688,"body":"So that control the purse strips."},{"startTime":2582.688,"endTime":2584.368,"body":"Talking about the leadership"},{"startTime":2582.688,"endTime":2584.368,"body":"of your organization, Uhhuh,"},{"startTime":2584.368,"endTime":2585.778,"body":"where do you want the org to go?"},{"startTime":2586.018,"endTime":2590.708,"body":"Because if you want to develop cars"},{"startTime":2586.018,"endTime":2590.708,"body":"that are both black and green, now I"},{"startTime":2590.708,"endTime":2592.568,"body":"have to hire some more paint people."},{"startTime":2593.528,"endTime":2594.848,"body":"I have to enhance the paint shop."},{"startTime":2594.938,"endTime":2596.168,"body":"I need to paint booths."},{"startTime":2596.168,"endTime":2597.518,"body":"I need to invest more money."},{"startTime":2597.998,"endTime":2601.088,"body":"I need the leaders of the organization"},{"startTime":2597.998,"endTime":2601.088,"body":"to say, look, is it really in your"},{"startTime":2601.088,"endTime":2605.378,"body":"vision of the organization to develop"},{"startTime":2601.088,"endTime":2605.378,"body":"cars that are both green and black"},{"startTime":2606.188,"endTime":2608.798,"body":"because you didn't, you said you"},{"startTime":2606.188,"endTime":2608.798,"body":"didn't care about paint before, right?"},{"startTime":2608.798,"endTime":2612.118,"body":"So when you didn't care about paint,"},{"startTime":2608.798,"endTime":2612.118,"body":"we could produce black and that's"},{"startTime":2612.118,"endTime":2613.048,"body":"what we could do in the budget."},{"startTime":2613.048,"endTime":2616.228,"body":"You gave us, do you really wanna"},{"startTime":2613.048,"endTime":2616.228,"body":"spend more money to do this?"},{"startTime":2616.228,"endTime":2617.788,"body":"And you have to have a"},{"startTime":2616.228,"endTime":2617.788,"body":"conversation at that level"},{"startTime":2617.968,"endTime":2620.098,"body":"and now we're at a level"},{"startTime":2617.968,"endTime":2620.098,"body":"where I don't know how useful"},{"startTime":2620.103,"endTime":2621.418,"body":"we're being on the podcast."},{"startTime":2621.568,"endTime":2624.868,"body":"This is, this is, this is like the"},{"startTime":2621.568,"endTime":2624.868,"body":"typical place we get to on a podcast"},{"startTime":2624.873,"endTime":2628.768,"body":"where we're near the end of the podcast,"},{"startTime":2624.873,"endTime":2628.768,"body":"because I'm saying like, like if I think"},{"startTime":2628.768,"endTime":2631.708,"body":"of like a scrum master Azure coach,"},{"startTime":2628.768,"endTime":2631.708,"body":"whatever, listening to this podcast."},{"startTime":2632.368,"endTime":2632.608,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2632.608,"endTime":2636.013,"body":"Well,  I don't talk to my C-suite"},{"startTime":2632.608,"endTime":2636.013,"body":"about like, yeah, but if you want"},{"startTime":2636.013,"endTime":2639.613,"body":"to deal with some of these organiza,"},{"startTime":2636.013,"endTime":2639.613,"body":"what I think of is blockers."},{"startTime":2640.453,"endTime":2643.898,"body":"I worked on this yesterday today"},{"startTime":2640.453,"endTime":2643.898,"body":"I'm gonna work on yesterday."},{"startTime":2643.898,"endTime":2646.478,"body":"I worked on getting the"},{"startTime":2643.898,"endTime":2646.478,"body":"doors in the car today."},{"startTime":2646.478,"endTime":2648.668,"body":"I'm gonna put the glass in the car, right."},{"startTime":2648.698,"endTime":2650.858,"body":"And I'm blocked because"},{"startTime":2648.698,"endTime":2650.858,"body":"there's a car in a paint booth."},{"startTime":2650.858,"endTime":2651.488,"body":"So I'm blocked."},{"startTime":2651.998,"endTime":2653.618,"body":"I'm not gonna be able to"},{"startTime":2651.998,"endTime":2653.618,"body":"go remove that impediment."},{"startTime":2653.618,"endTime":2654.908,"body":"I'm not gonna be able to get my car out."},{"startTime":2654.913,"endTime":2655.568,"body":"The paint booth."},{"startTime":2655.688,"endTime":2656.048,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2656.098,"endTime":2660.298,"body":"Well, if we had two paint booths, one"},{"startTime":2656.098,"endTime":2660.298,"body":"painting black, and one painting green."},{"startTime":2660.688,"endTime":2662.038,"body":"We can move twice as fast."},{"startTime":2662.878,"endTime":2664.258,"body":"Now I have the scrum master."},{"startTime":2664.258,"endTime":2668.308,"body":"I have to pick this up, bring it"},{"startTime":2664.258,"endTime":2668.308,"body":"up to the next level, up in the"},{"startTime":2668.308,"endTime":2671.488,"body":"organization, wherever my workers"},{"startTime":2668.308,"endTime":2671.488,"body":"are, whatever the next level up is."},{"startTime":2671.488,"endTime":2673.828,"body":"I gotta coach up in the organization."},{"startTime":2673.948,"endTime":2675.688,"body":"Ooh, Ooh."},{"startTime":2675.748,"endTime":2679.088,"body":"Angry tweets, no angry tweets,"},{"startTime":2675.748,"endTime":2679.088,"body":"because that is your role."},{"startTime":2679.088,"endTime":2682.228,"body":"Listen as a scrum master and the"},{"startTime":2679.088,"endTime":2682.228,"body":"message you might get is, and you might"},{"startTime":2682.228,"endTime":2685.318,"body":"not like it, which is I don't care."},{"startTime":2686.278,"endTime":2687.508,"body":"Paint booth is a paint booth."},{"startTime":2687.808,"endTime":2689.188,"body":"We only produce black cars."},{"startTime":2689.848,"endTime":2690.958,"body":"I don't care if you're blocked."},{"startTime":2691.458,"endTime":2692.238,"body":"It is what it is."},{"startTime":2692.243,"endTime":2693.078,"body":"I'm not spending more money."},{"startTime":2693.083,"endTime":2694.248,"body":"I'm not buying another paint booth."},{"startTime":2694.248,"endTime":2697.818,"body":"That's a positive message"},{"startTime":2694.248,"endTime":2697.818,"body":"because now you've got direction."},{"startTime":2698.178,"endTime":2698.658,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":2698.988,"endTime":2699.888,"body":"That's a positive message."},{"startTime":2699.918,"endTime":2703.038,"body":"Now you understand the"},{"startTime":2699.918,"endTime":2703.038,"body":"confines, finite research."},{"startTime":2703.158,"endTime":2706.278,"body":"You understand the confines"},{"startTime":2703.158,"endTime":2706.278,"body":"in which you are to operate."},{"startTime":2706.368,"endTime":2708.558,"body":"Mm-hmm  I get, I give"},{"startTime":2706.368,"endTime":2708.558,"body":"somebody this advice recently."},{"startTime":2708.558,"endTime":2712.368,"body":"I was like, look like you need to"},{"startTime":2708.558,"endTime":2712.368,"body":"really understand leadership's approach."},{"startTime":2712.878,"endTime":2717.318,"body":"To the organization and you need to tell"},{"startTime":2712.878,"endTime":2717.318,"body":"them, Hey, why are we not doing X, Y, Z?"},{"startTime":2717.498,"endTime":2720.408,"body":"Because we could be, I don't know, a lot"},{"startTime":2717.498,"endTime":2720.408,"body":"more effective, a lot more efficient,"},{"startTime":2720.408,"endTime":2724.008,"body":"whatever your ideas is, you need to have"},{"startTime":2720.408,"endTime":2724.008,"body":"a back and forth conversation because if"},{"startTime":2724.188,"endTime":2730.858,"body":"their vision is look, I don't see a reason"},{"startTime":2724.188,"endTime":2730.858,"body":"to take suggestions for my team members."},{"startTime":2730.858,"endTime":2734.248,"body":"Like, I, I know what, what to build,"},{"startTime":2730.858,"endTime":2734.248,"body":"and I don't really need to talk to"},{"startTime":2734.248,"endTime":2737.248,"body":"customers and get feedback about what"},{"startTime":2734.248,"endTime":2737.248,"body":"to build you're never gonna get that"},{"startTime":2737.248,"endTime":2738.958,"body":"clear of a message from your leadership."},{"startTime":2739.048,"endTime":2742.998,"body":"But if you have the benefit of"},{"startTime":2739.048,"endTime":2742.998,"body":"getting that clear message look, I"},{"startTime":2742.998,"endTime":2744.168,"body":"don't care what the customer says."},{"startTime":2744.168,"endTime":2744.558,"body":"They want."},{"startTime":2744.798,"endTime":2745.458,"body":"We're gonna build what I."},{"startTime":2745.958,"endTime":2747.428,"body":"because I know the best, right?"},{"startTime":2747.728,"endTime":2751.508,"body":"You now, like the ball's back"},{"startTime":2747.728,"endTime":2751.508,"body":"in your court with what to"},{"startTime":2751.513,"endTime":2752.738,"body":"do with that information."},{"startTime":2752.738,"endTime":2753.068,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":2753.248,"endTime":2758.188,"body":"If you go to your leadership and you"},{"startTime":2753.248,"endTime":2758.188,"body":"say, Hey we could do twice as much work."},{"startTime":2758.308,"endTime":2760.708,"body":"If you would just invest"},{"startTime":2758.308,"endTime":2760.708,"body":"in another paint booth."},{"startTime":2760.738,"endTime":2763.168,"body":"I don't know why we're going back"},{"startTime":2760.738,"endTime":2763.168,"body":"to this car producing example"},{"startTime":2763.258,"endTime":2764.278,"body":"probably cause this's very clear."},{"startTime":2764.308,"endTime":2766.898,"body":"Yeah and the leadership says"},{"startTime":2764.308,"endTime":2766.898,"body":"no, I don't want to do that."},{"startTime":2767.138,"endTime":2771.188,"body":"I'm happy with the amount that we're"},{"startTime":2767.138,"endTime":2771.188,"body":"punching out cog as the machine."},{"startTime":2771.878,"endTime":2773.858,"body":"I don't want to spend more money on this."},{"startTime":2774.038,"endTime":2776.258,"body":"I'd rather use my money on whatever else."},{"startTime":2776.348,"endTime":2776.618,"body":"Right"},{"startTime":2777.028,"endTime":2779.458,"body":"you've identified it, you've brought"},{"startTime":2777.028,"endTime":2779.458,"body":"the conversation up and you've had"},{"startTime":2779.608,"endTime":2782.698,"body":"you, I, I almost wanna say you could"},{"startTime":2779.608,"endTime":2782.698,"body":"document the conversation of like"},{"startTime":2782.728,"endTime":2786.448,"body":"in, in your epics going forward and"},{"startTime":2782.728,"endTime":2786.448,"body":"your stories going forward and your"},{"startTime":2786.448,"endTime":2787.828,"body":"work going forward, you can say."},{"startTime":2788.658,"endTime":2790.278,"body":"We have talked about this."},{"startTime":2790.308,"endTime":2792.618,"body":"This is the vision for the product."},{"startTime":2792.888,"endTime":2794.238,"body":"We're only black cars."},{"startTime":2794.448,"endTime":2794.688,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2794.788,"endTime":2796.648,"body":"that could be in your stories even, right."},{"startTime":2796.648,"endTime":2797.218,"body":"You certainly can."},{"startTime":2797.218,"endTime":2797.818,"body":"I would say so."},{"startTime":2798.028,"endTime":2798.478,"body":"So yeah."},{"startTime":2798.478,"endTime":2799.108,"body":"I, I agree."},{"startTime":2799.113,"endTime":2803.398,"body":"So just to recap what you said"},{"startTime":2799.113,"endTime":2803.398,"body":"there, somebody master's role."},{"startTime":2803.403,"endTime":2804.868,"body":"I have no idea what I just said."},{"startTime":2804.868,"endTime":2805.078,"body":"So"},{"startTime":2805.498,"endTime":2808.448,"body":"the scrum master's role"},{"startTime":2805.498,"endTime":2808.448,"body":"is to coach up yes."},{"startTime":2808.453,"endTime":2809.398,"body":"In the organization."},{"startTime":2809.403,"endTime":2809.698,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2809.698,"endTime":2810.178,"body":"Look it up."},{"startTime":2810.178,"endTime":2811.438,"body":"It's in the scrum guide now."},{"startTime":2811.798,"endTime":2812.128,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2812.133,"endTime":2816.058,"body":"So don't be afraid to bring up"},{"startTime":2812.133,"endTime":2816.058,"body":"this stuff with your leadership,"},{"startTime":2816.238,"endTime":2820.288,"body":"go past your management, get"},{"startTime":2816.238,"endTime":2820.288,"body":"away, find a way wait outside the"},{"startTime":2820.288,"endTime":2822.188,"body":"elevator for them to ride up with."},{"startTime":2822.193,"endTime":2823.513,"body":"I don't even think you're going over them."},{"startTime":2823.513,"endTime":2827.533,"body":"I think of this from the perspective"},{"startTime":2823.513,"endTime":2827.533,"body":"of the developer who is working the"},{"startTime":2827.533,"endTime":2832.713,"body":"scrum master role part-time or the the,"},{"startTime":2827.533,"endTime":2832.713,"body":"maybe the, the dev lead who steps in"},{"startTime":2832.713,"endTime":2834.063,"body":"as a scrum master, that kind of thing."},{"startTime":2834.333,"endTime":2834.453,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2834.663,"endTime":2838.503,"body":"I don't think of it as stepping over your"},{"startTime":2834.663,"endTime":2838.503,"body":"manager, like your manager has a place"},{"startTime":2839.073,"endTime":2840.713,"body":"carry out plans of the leadership or."},{"startTime":2841.213,"endTime":2844.123,"body":"but you should feel free to"},{"startTime":2841.213,"endTime":2844.123,"body":"ask, where are we headed?"},{"startTime":2844.333,"endTime":2846.583,"body":"Should, if that's not clear, you"},{"startTime":2844.333,"endTime":2846.583,"body":"should ask, where are we headed?"},{"startTime":2846.643,"endTime":2848.443,"body":"that that's not stepping over."},{"startTime":2848.593,"endTime":2851.048,"body":"And if you're in an organization"},{"startTime":2848.593,"endTime":2851.048,"body":"where it is perceived as stepping"},{"startTime":2851.053,"endTime":2855.188,"body":"over, you have other issues that are"},{"startTime":2851.053,"endTime":2855.188,"body":"not related to agility and scrum and"},{"startTime":2855.193,"endTime":2856.268,"body":"to the stuff we're talking about,"},{"startTime":2856.328,"endTime":2856.658,"body":"you do."},{"startTime":2856.658,"endTime":2858.938,"body":"I, I was just really referring"},{"startTime":2856.658,"endTime":2858.938,"body":"to some scrum masters and say,"},{"startTime":2858.938,"endTime":2860.378,"body":"well, I don't talk to my C-suite."},{"startTime":2860.438,"endTime":2862.478,"body":"I talk to my most director."},{"startTime":2862.658,"endTime":2865.178,"body":"Most probably don't but you should, right?"},{"startTime":2865.238,"endTime":2865.478,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2865.808,"endTime":2867.248,"body":"Punch out an email, do something."},{"startTime":2867.998,"endTime":2868.268,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2868.388,"endTime":2868.898,"body":"I agree"},{"startTime":2869.408,"endTime":2872.228,"body":"fixes why we're in the"},{"startTime":2869.408,"endTime":2872.228,"body":"subject of fixes, right?"},{"startTime":2872.228,"endTime":2872.349,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2872.354,"endTime":2872.478,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2872.588,"endTime":2879.048,"body":"So one potential fix might be to bring"},{"startTime":2872.588,"endTime":2879.048,"body":"in outsiders, bring in consultants"},{"startTime":2879.538,"endTime":2881.278,"body":"to inject a little bit of expertise."},{"startTime":2881.308,"endTime":2881.458,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2881.758,"endTime":2882.988,"body":"Cause they are the experts."},{"startTime":2883.078,"endTime":2883.168,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2883.168,"endTime":2887.098,"body":"And then they pull away the other"},{"startTime":2883.168,"endTime":2887.098,"body":"than the obvious, which is they're"},{"startTime":2887.098,"endTime":2888.748,"body":"not vested in your organization."},{"startTime":2888.748,"endTime":2889.918,"body":"They they're hired hands."},{"startTime":2889.918,"endTime":2890.698,"body":"They will be gone."},{"startTime":2890.728,"endTime":2893.868,"body":"Mm-hmm , what are some of the"},{"startTime":2890.728,"endTime":2893.868,"body":"stipulations around using those"},{"startTime":2894.198,"endTime":2896.538,"body":"pros and cons maybe of, of that?"},{"startTime":2896.538,"endTime":2896.808,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2896.808,"endTime":2901.133,"body":"So I wanna go back to what we"},{"startTime":2896.808,"endTime":2901.133,"body":"already talked about as a role"},{"startTime":2901.643,"endTime":2905.803,"body":"that might be a finite resource"},{"startTime":2901.643,"endTime":2905.803,"body":"role and that's a DevOps, right?"},{"startTime":2905.808,"endTime":2905.923,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2905.953,"endTime":2909.283,"body":"So you could bring in somebody who"},{"startTime":2905.953,"endTime":2909.283,"body":"understands the world of DevOps,"},{"startTime":2909.283,"endTime":2911.263,"body":"they can come in and fix you up."},{"startTime":2911.323,"endTime":2915.683,"body":"Yeah and obviously they will train"},{"startTime":2911.323,"endTime":2915.683,"body":"your developers and how to use"},{"startTime":2915.683,"endTime":2916.943,"body":"and how to maintain, et cetera."},{"startTime":2916.973,"endTime":2917.903,"body":"Mm-hmm  and they're gone."},{"startTime":2917.993,"endTime":2919.793,"body":"I nothing wrong with that."},{"startTime":2920.243,"endTime":2921.413,"body":"I wasn't even thinking about that."},{"startTime":2921.413,"endTime":2924.878,"body":"So I'm, I'm glad you brought that up"},{"startTime":2921.413,"endTime":2924.878,"body":"because I would say that that I think"},{"startTime":2925.028,"endTime":2930.158,"body":"in this podcast, I think we already said"},{"startTime":2925.028,"endTime":2930.158,"body":"like, that's one of the rarer skill sets."},{"startTime":2930.218,"endTime":2932.438,"body":"Is that a right word or"},{"startTime":2930.218,"endTime":2932.438,"body":"more rare, rare, rarer."},{"startTime":2932.498,"endTime":2934.518,"body":"I don't know more rarer is not right."},{"startTime":2934.518,"endTime":2934.818,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2935.568,"endTime":2935.868,"body":"whatever."},{"startTime":2935.868,"endTime":2936.078,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2936.083,"endTime":2937.908,"body":"That's one, we'll use that more rarer."},{"startTime":2938.758,"endTime":2940.738,"body":"It doesn't even sound like a real"},{"startTime":2938.758,"endTime":2940.738,"body":"word when you say it like that"},{"startTime":2941.488,"endTime":2944.578,"body":"everything we talked about having"},{"startTime":2941.488,"endTime":2944.578,"body":"shared services and having COEs"},{"startTime":2944.578,"endTime":2945.358,"body":"and all that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":2945.418,"endTime":2947.458,"body":"My fix for this is don't do any of that."},{"startTime":2947.668,"endTime":2952.923,"body":"Just decentralize these positions where"},{"startTime":2947.668,"endTime":2952.923,"body":"if you're gonna have , a grouping of"},{"startTime":2953.403,"endTime":2958.293,"body":"lead level people or, or, or shared"},{"startTime":2953.403,"endTime":2958.293,"body":"service people cool have them, but"},{"startTime":2958.298,"endTime":2960.938,"body":"have them only support  a few teams."},{"startTime":2961.898,"endTime":2964.748,"body":"And then now they're shared between a"},{"startTime":2961.898,"endTime":2964.748,"body":"few teams, and then when you add more"},{"startTime":2964.748,"endTime":2968.498,"body":"teams you need to add more people because"},{"startTime":2964.748,"endTime":2968.498,"body":"this, whatever, this logical grouping"},{"startTime":2968.498,"endTime":2972.688,"body":"of people that shares across the teams"},{"startTime":2968.498,"endTime":2972.688,"body":"that skillset if you have three teams"},{"startTime":2972.688,"endTime":2976.198,"body":"and like, I don't know, four or five"},{"startTime":2972.688,"endTime":2976.198,"body":"people support these three teams, and"},{"startTime":2976.203,"endTime":2977.818,"body":"then you wanna hire three more teams."},{"startTime":2978.373,"endTime":2982.903,"body":"Or whatever, then just duplicate"},{"startTime":2978.373,"endTime":2982.903,"body":"your leads level over here in"},{"startTime":2982.903,"endTime":2984.283,"body":"whatever positions you have here."},{"startTime":2984.403,"endTime":2985.843,"body":"Just multiply them over here."},{"startTime":2985.963,"endTime":2987.913,"body":"That's a tough decision to"},{"startTime":2985.963,"endTime":2987.913,"body":"make organizationally when"},{"startTime":2987.913,"endTime":2988.723,"body":"to do that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":2988.728,"endTime":2992.718,"body":"but the reason I bring it up is"},{"startTime":2988.728,"endTime":2992.718,"body":"I think decentralization in your"},{"startTime":2992.718,"endTime":2994.488,"body":"org structure is the fix for this."},{"startTime":2994.788,"endTime":2997.608,"body":"I'm not saying don't have shared"},{"startTime":2994.788,"endTime":2997.608,"body":"services, I'm just saying, have shared"},{"startTime":2997.608,"endTime":3003.138,"body":"services, but limit the audience that"},{"startTime":2997.608,"endTime":3003.138,"body":"they're shared to so they're not spread"},{"startTime":3003.138,"endTime":3009.338,"body":"so thin oh boy, the DevOps, thing's a"},{"startTime":3003.138,"endTime":3009.338,"body":"great example of how to supplement what"},{"startTime":3009.338,"endTime":3013.148,"body":"I'm talking about until you can have"},{"startTime":3009.338,"endTime":3013.148,"body":"somebody permanent in that role, because"},{"startTime":3013.148,"endTime":3018.458,"body":"you can have somebody contracted for"},{"startTime":3013.148,"endTime":3018.458,"body":"a period of time to skill up your team"},{"startTime":3018.458,"endTime":3022.358,"body":"members so that maybe they have that"},{"startTime":3018.458,"endTime":3022.358,"body":"skill and they can support themselves."},{"startTime":3022.683,"endTime":3026.933,"body":"and then over time, you bring people"},{"startTime":3022.683,"endTime":3026.933,"body":"back in maybe whatever they bring"},{"startTime":3026.933,"endTime":3030.653,"body":"somebody in for three months, train up"},{"startTime":3026.933,"endTime":3030.653,"body":"your teams, bounce 'em out for a while."},{"startTime":3030.653,"endTime":3034.133,"body":"Then they come back in later it'd be,"},{"startTime":3030.653,"endTime":3034.133,"body":"it could be a really great relationship"},{"startTime":3034.133,"endTime":3038.153,"body":"that you have with particular contract"},{"startTime":3034.133,"endTime":3038.153,"body":"vendors and that kind of stuff you, I"},{"startTime":3038.153,"endTime":3041.693,"body":"mean, they would love to Hey, every couple"},{"startTime":3038.153,"endTime":3041.693,"body":"months I'm gonna need your person for"},{"startTime":3042.023,"endTime":3046.063,"body":"so much amount of time or whatever I'm"},{"startTime":3042.023,"endTime":3046.063,"body":"sure they would love you if you  sure."},{"startTime":3046.063,"endTime":3048.523,"body":"You know, normal relationship"},{"startTime":3046.063,"endTime":3048.523,"body":"like that, like it would be great."},{"startTime":3049.093,"endTime":3052.883,"body":"Maybe you don't have to spend"},{"startTime":3049.093,"endTime":3052.883,"body":"what it would take to hire"},{"startTime":3052.973,"endTime":3055.733,"body":"permanent people to do these roles."},{"startTime":3055.733,"endTime":3056.483,"body":"I, I don't know."},{"startTime":3056.573,"endTime":3056.933,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":3057.503,"endTime":3059.963,"body":"I think that model has a"},{"startTime":3057.503,"endTime":3059.963,"body":"lot of validity personally."},{"startTime":3059.968,"endTime":3060.053,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3060.053,"endTime":3063.983,"body":"I mean, most of these people"},{"startTime":3060.053,"endTime":3063.983,"body":"that we talked about, these roles"},{"startTime":3064.403,"endTime":3068.623,"body":"that are in the finite resources"},{"startTime":3064.403,"endTime":3068.623,"body":"arena there're expensive, right."},{"startTime":3068.628,"endTime":3069.883,"body":"These skill sets aren't cheap."},{"startTime":3070.153,"endTime":3074.413,"body":"So going outside the organization"},{"startTime":3070.153,"endTime":3074.413,"body":"for short periods of time yeah."},{"startTime":3074.413,"endTime":3075.583,"body":"Might be very cost effective."},{"startTime":3075.973,"endTime":3079.803,"body":"I also one of the things that ties in"},{"startTime":3075.973,"endTime":3079.803,"body":"with this podcast that doesn't really"},{"startTime":3079.808,"endTime":3080.913,"body":"fit into what we're talking about."},{"startTime":3080.913,"endTime":3084.718,"body":"Cause we're kind of talking about"},{"startTime":3080.913,"endTime":3084.718,"body":"development, QA product maybe"},{"startTime":3084.718,"endTime":3088.458,"body":"inside the scrum model which is"},{"startTime":3084.718,"endTime":3088.458,"body":"your team eventually is gonna lose"},{"startTime":3088.458,"endTime":3089.808,"body":"people and have to hire people in."},{"startTime":3089.813,"endTime":3094.228,"body":"So you're gonna need a recruiter an HR"},{"startTime":3089.813,"endTime":3094.228,"body":"professional to help you understand how"},{"startTime":3094.228,"endTime":3096.328,"body":"to interview and teach you the skills."},{"startTime":3096.328,"endTime":3101.398,"body":"Like I, I think of that in this model"},{"startTime":3096.328,"endTime":3101.398,"body":"as well in the, in the shared services"},{"startTime":3101.398,"endTime":3102.928,"body":"model, you need to pull people down."},{"startTime":3103.693,"endTime":3104.683,"body":"Corporate level."},{"startTime":3104.688,"endTime":3107.053,"body":"Cause usually those people"},{"startTime":3104.688,"endTime":3107.053,"body":"sit up with a C-suite yeah."},{"startTime":3107.143,"endTime":3108.283,"body":"They don't sit with your teams."},{"startTime":3108.283,"endTime":3110.263,"body":"They're above you."},{"startTime":3110.503,"endTime":3111.673,"body":"They're above the teams for sure."},{"startTime":3111.673,"endTime":3111.913,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":3111.913,"endTime":3112.753,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":3113.013,"endTime":3113.863,"body":"No, no, no, no, no, no, no."},{"startTime":3114.193,"endTime":3119.653,"body":"Like what I'm proposing is all the skills"},{"startTime":3114.193,"endTime":3119.653,"body":"that are not on the team, some kind of"},{"startTime":3119.653,"endTime":3123.623,"body":"model where you can pull those people"},{"startTime":3119.653,"endTime":3123.623,"body":"down to, to help your team for a while."},{"startTime":3123.683,"endTime":3124.084,"body":"yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":3124.089,"endTime":3129.413,"body":"That like what percentage and how"},{"startTime":3124.089,"endTime":3129.413,"body":"thinly they're spread see, I don't know."},{"startTime":3129.473,"endTime":3132.443,"body":"I think it's a, I think"},{"startTime":3129.473,"endTime":3132.443,"body":"it evens out to be honest."},{"startTime":3132.448,"endTime":3134.273,"body":"So let's say HR for instance."},{"startTime":3134.273,"endTime":3134.483,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":3134.488,"endTime":3138.953,"body":"So they are in the C-suite or next to"},{"startTime":3134.488,"endTime":3138.953,"body":"the C-suite, but they're still working"},{"startTime":3139.003,"endTime":3141.473,"body":"on HR issues for X number of teams."},{"startTime":3141.533,"endTime":3141.623,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3141.953,"endTime":3145.313,"body":"So to your point, you get an HR"},{"startTime":3141.953,"endTime":3145.313,"body":"person, HR admin, whoever it."},{"startTime":3146.168,"endTime":3150.638,"body":"From that body of HR people"},{"startTime":3146.168,"endTime":3150.638,"body":"sit with a team for the finite"},{"startTime":3150.638,"endTime":3152.048,"body":"time they need to right."},{"startTime":3152.108,"endTime":3152.168,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3152.218,"endTime":3155.868,"body":"Get them up and running and then they"},{"startTime":3152.218,"endTime":3155.868,"body":"go to another team I think that's"},{"startTime":3156.108,"endTime":3160.068,"body":"value in that because usually you"},{"startTime":3156.108,"endTime":3160.068,"body":"just wait, that's the problem, right?"},{"startTime":3160.068,"endTime":3160.518,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3160.788,"endTime":3164.138,"body":"Because they're serving so many teams,"},{"startTime":3160.788,"endTime":3164.138,"body":"but really nobody effectively yeah."},{"startTime":3164.138,"endTime":3169.568,"body":"My typical experience with this is you"},{"startTime":3164.138,"endTime":3169.568,"body":"you have to go to your, like in the"},{"startTime":3169.568,"endTime":3174.478,"body":"shared services model, your department"},{"startTime":3169.568,"endTime":3174.478,"body":"lead or, , the person who basically"},{"startTime":3174.478,"endTime":3178.498,"body":"is the on paper manager of all the"},{"startTime":3174.478,"endTime":3178.498,"body":"developers across all the teams."},{"startTime":3178.498,"endTime":3178.798,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3178.858,"endTime":3181.348,"body":"I don't know what you call that,"},{"startTime":3178.858,"endTime":3181.348,"body":"what you would think of as like a"},{"startTime":3181.348,"endTime":3183.318,"body":"resource manager, a resource manager."},{"startTime":3183.318,"endTime":3183.322,"body":"You're a matrix organization."},{"startTime":3183.322,"endTime":3183.323,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3183.323,"endTime":3184.308,"body":"A resource manager,"},{"startTime":3183.323,"endTime":3184.308,"body":"like a resource manager"},{"startTime":3184.358,"endTime":3188.888,"body":"I'll use example of where I was in,"},{"startTime":3184.358,"endTime":3188.888,"body":"which was a resource manager for the,"},{"startTime":3189.038,"endTime":3191.468,"body":"the test resources across all the teams."},{"startTime":3191.588,"endTime":3194.948,"body":"And when I wanted to hire another"},{"startTime":3191.588,"endTime":3194.948,"body":"tester, I'd have to put some kind of"},{"startTime":3194.948,"endTime":3201.588,"body":"wreck in with the director across the"},{"startTime":3194.948,"endTime":3201.588,"body":"whole development test department."},{"startTime":3201.708,"endTime":3206.208,"body":"And then they would've to reach out"},{"startTime":3201.708,"endTime":3206.208,"body":"to the HR organization that sat up"},{"startTime":3206.268,"endTime":3210.318,"body":"with the executive level, and then"},{"startTime":3206.268,"endTime":3210.318,"body":"they would've to approve the position."},{"startTime":3211.098,"endTime":3214.398,"body":"And then if they approve the"},{"startTime":3211.098,"endTime":3214.398,"body":"position, then it would come"},{"startTime":3214.403,"endTime":3215.538,"body":"back down through that manager."},{"startTime":3215.538,"endTime":3219.318,"body":"And then come back down to me,"},{"startTime":3215.538,"endTime":3219.318,"body":"who again is not on a team."},{"startTime":3219.358,"endTime":3221.938,"body":"All middle managers, all middle"},{"startTime":3219.358,"endTime":3221.938,"body":"manager, of course, all up"},{"startTime":3221.938,"endTime":3224.188,"body":"through the middle management"},{"startTime":3221.938,"endTime":3224.188,"body":"hierarchy and then back down to me."},{"startTime":3224.188,"endTime":3228.748,"body":"And then, and then I would be able"},{"startTime":3224.188,"endTime":3228.748,"body":"to, published a job description HR"},{"startTime":3228.748,"endTime":3231.508,"body":"would put the job description out"},{"startTime":3228.748,"endTime":3231.508,"body":"on the different forums and they"},{"startTime":3231.508,"endTime":3233.758,"body":"would feed me the candidates, the"},{"startTime":3231.508,"endTime":3233.758,"body":"candidates, as it came through."},{"startTime":3233.763,"endTime":3237.838,"body":"And then I would have to do all of"},{"startTime":3233.763,"endTime":3237.838,"body":"the vetting, all the phone screens,"},{"startTime":3237.843,"endTime":3240.658,"body":"all the in person, interviews, all the"},{"startTime":3237.843,"endTime":3240.658,"body":"scheduling, all that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":3240.748,"endTime":3240.838,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3240.888,"endTime":3244.338,"body":"Where's, where's my HR help"},{"startTime":3240.888,"endTime":3244.338,"body":"at that point, you know?"},{"startTime":3244.398,"endTime":3244.578,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3245.208,"endTime":3246.928,"body":"Look, why am I abandoned now?"},{"startTime":3246.928,"endTime":3252.278,"body":"Once I, once, once one floodgate"},{"startTime":3246.928,"endTime":3252.278,"body":"is opened by some high level in"},{"startTime":3252.278,"endTime":3254.198,"body":"the chain, why am I left alone?"},{"startTime":3254.198,"endTime":3259.098,"body":"Why am I not assigned an HR person"},{"startTime":3254.198,"endTime":3259.098,"body":"to help me along the process to"},{"startTime":3259.098,"endTime":3262.868,"body":"make sure I'm not, not like not"},{"startTime":3259.098,"endTime":3262.868,"body":"even not doing the best job I can or"},{"startTime":3262.868,"endTime":3264.298,"body":"figuring getting the best candidate."},{"startTime":3264.298,"endTime":3264.843,"body":"I can."},{"startTime":3265.623,"endTime":3267.813,"body":"not breaking the law, like  yeah."},{"startTime":3268.113,"endTime":3268.503,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":3268.503,"endTime":3269.913,"body":"What if I'm a terrible person?"},{"startTime":3269.913,"endTime":3273.003,"body":"And like, I like, oh, I don't"},{"startTime":3269.913,"endTime":3273.003,"body":"want to hire women or whatever."},{"startTime":3273.003,"endTime":3274.623,"body":"You're like, this is true."},{"startTime":3274.628,"endTime":3275.403,"body":"This is very true."},{"startTime":3275.763,"endTime":3275.853,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3275.853,"endTime":3278.313,"body":"It's just a very inefficient"},{"startTime":3275.853,"endTime":3278.313,"body":"way of doing things."},{"startTime":3278.343,"endTime":3278.733,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3278.733,"endTime":3281.223,"body":"Right now the, the way"},{"startTime":3278.733,"endTime":3281.223,"body":"these things are set up."},{"startTime":3281.283,"endTime":3281.493,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3281.543,"endTime":3285.827,"body":"I apply it to HR, hoping that people"},{"startTime":3281.543,"endTime":3285.827,"body":"listening to this or watching this"},{"startTime":3286.127,"endTime":3289.197,"body":"will like a light bulb will go off"},{"startTime":3286.127,"endTime":3289.197,"body":"in their head cuz I'm like, oh yeah."},{"startTime":3289.347,"endTime":3293.647,"body":"Well, he's talking about HR"},{"startTime":3289.347,"endTime":3293.647,"body":"because HR is most stereotypically."},{"startTime":3293.837,"endTime":3298.607,"body":"And in my experience routinely"},{"startTime":3293.837,"endTime":3298.607,"body":"left out of the tech process."},{"startTime":3298.787,"endTime":3302.327,"body":"Whereas all this rest of stuff, we're"},{"startTime":3298.787,"endTime":3302.327,"body":"talking about, the team members, not"},{"startTime":3302.327,"endTime":3305.687,"body":"enough teams to do the work and the"},{"startTime":3302.327,"endTime":3305.687,"body":"solution architect or the architect or"},{"startTime":3305.687,"endTime":3308.447,"body":"the dev lead that doesn't really sit on"},{"startTime":3305.687,"endTime":3308.447,"body":"the teams, but the kind of rockstar in and"},{"startTime":3308.447,"endTime":3311.687,"body":"outta the team, not enough testers that"},{"startTime":3308.447,"endTime":3311.687,"body":"like you deal with that stuff day to day."},{"startTime":3311.687,"endTime":3313.902,"body":"And somehow you figure your way"},{"startTime":3311.687,"endTime":3313.902,"body":"around it and that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":3314.402,"endTime":3319.082,"body":"but like, if you start thinking about it,"},{"startTime":3314.402,"endTime":3319.082,"body":"I was like, yeah, why am I left out of"},{"startTime":3319.682,"endTime":3323.732,"body":"helping me hire people and get the best"},{"startTime":3319.682,"endTime":3323.732,"body":"people in and vet the best candidates?"},{"startTime":3323.882,"endTime":3325.532,"body":"Why am I not helped?"},{"startTime":3325.842,"endTime":3329.917,"body":"With bringing the best why, why is"},{"startTime":3325.842,"endTime":3329.917,"body":"nobody helping me with budgetary"},{"startTime":3329.917,"endTime":3335.227,"body":"concerns of like the money that goes"},{"startTime":3329.917,"endTime":3335.227,"body":"into my development process and the"},{"startTime":3335.227,"endTime":3338.737,"body":"profit that it brings into the company"},{"startTime":3335.227,"endTime":3338.737,"body":"and how to, how to view those numbers?"},{"startTime":3338.857,"endTime":3341.947,"body":"Why is no one helping"},{"startTime":3338.857,"endTime":3341.947,"body":"me with those things?"},{"startTime":3342.137,"endTime":3344.627,"body":"they should be, I mean, all"},{"startTime":3342.137,"endTime":3344.627,"body":"of these elements should be"},{"startTime":3344.627,"endTime":3346.727,"body":"decentralized at the team level."},{"startTime":3346.937,"endTime":3348.557,"body":"I'll give you another example of this."},{"startTime":3348.557,"endTime":3348.827,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3348.857,"endTime":3353.727,"body":"Which is coming up with QR GS or what"},{"startTime":3348.857,"endTime":3353.727,"body":"they call quick, quick reference guides."},{"startTime":3353.727,"endTime":3353.787,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3353.787,"endTime":3354.567,"body":"And all of those sorts of."},{"startTime":3355.287,"endTime":3359.607,"body":"So oftentimes what happens I see"},{"startTime":3355.287,"endTime":3359.607,"body":"is when the solution that's being"},{"startTime":3359.612,"endTime":3364.087,"body":"developed is at a point where"},{"startTime":3359.612,"endTime":3364.087,"body":"everybody on the team feels like yeah."},{"startTime":3364.087,"endTime":3365.227,"body":"It's working kind of right."},{"startTime":3365.227,"endTime":3366.157,"body":"It's working pretty good."},{"startTime":3366.157,"endTime":3370.117,"body":"We we're about to go into U a T,"},{"startTime":3366.157,"endTime":3370.117,"body":"but our users will need something."},{"startTime":3370.237,"endTime":3370.297,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3370.507,"endTime":3376.602,"body":"You just don't put 'em in front of a"},{"startTime":3370.507,"endTime":3376.602,"body":"machine we'll bring in a skill from"},{"startTime":3376.602,"endTime":3381.742,"body":"one of these other groups that person"},{"startTime":3376.602,"endTime":3381.742,"body":"comes in with the express per purpose"},{"startTime":3381.742,"endTime":3383.932,"body":"of writing documentation, essentially."},{"startTime":3383.932,"endTime":3384.492,"body":"Yeah and."},{"startTime":3385.452,"endTime":3388.072,"body":"Creating confluence, pages,"},{"startTime":3385.452,"endTime":3388.072,"body":"whatever, however that's done."},{"startTime":3388.082,"endTime":3391.222,"body":"Mm-hmm  but they have no knowledge"},{"startTime":3388.082,"endTime":3391.222,"body":"of the, the product they're"},{"startTime":3391.222,"endTime":3392.572,"body":"coming in just to do that."},{"startTime":3392.572,"endTime":3395.242,"body":"So their way of doing it"},{"startTime":3392.572,"endTime":3395.242,"body":"is to do interviews, right."},{"startTime":3395.247,"endTime":3398.452,"body":"They'll interview people and say, tell"},{"startTime":3395.247,"endTime":3398.452,"body":"us about your system and they'll be"},{"startTime":3398.457,"endTime":3400.282,"body":"typing it up and they'll wordsmith it."},{"startTime":3400.702,"endTime":3401.032,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3402.022,"endTime":3405.592,"body":"If that person was there at the beginning,"},{"startTime":3402.022,"endTime":3405.592,"body":"when the requirements were being gathered,"},{"startTime":3405.592,"endTime":3409.852,"body":"you can do just enough documentation there"},{"startTime":3405.592,"endTime":3409.852,"body":"mm-hmm  and then Polish it off as you go."},{"startTime":3409.882,"endTime":3410.242,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3410.742,"endTime":3411.132,"body":"Done."},{"startTime":3411.162,"endTime":3415.302,"body":"But then hasn't mean, so what I'm not"},{"startTime":3411.162,"endTime":3415.302,"body":"advocating everyone is you need a person"},{"startTime":3415.307,"endTime":3417.432,"body":"like that full time on every single team."},{"startTime":3417.437,"endTime":3417.882,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":3418.042,"endTime":3420.617,"body":"we're not saying that that cuz"},{"startTime":3418.042,"endTime":3420.617,"body":"they are a finite resource."},{"startTime":3421.007,"endTime":3422.897,"body":"Those skills are, I mean it'd specific."},{"startTime":3422.897,"endTime":3423.707,"body":"It'd be nice."},{"startTime":3423.977,"endTime":3424.277,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3424.637,"endTime":3425.297,"body":"Would be nice."},{"startTime":3425.797,"endTime":3426.757,"body":"not feasible, right?"},{"startTime":3426.757,"endTime":3428.137,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah for many reasons."},{"startTime":3428.407,"endTime":3428.827,"body":"So yeah."},{"startTime":3428.827,"endTime":3430.717,"body":"I mean, there are other"},{"startTime":3428.827,"endTime":3430.717,"body":"examples like that, I'm sure"},{"startTime":3430.717,"endTime":3432.427,"body":"that we haven't even explored."},{"startTime":3432.487,"endTime":3432.787,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3432.857,"endTime":3433.897,"body":"I just thought about that one."},{"startTime":3433.957,"endTime":3434.197,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3434.202,"endTime":3434.407,"body":"I'm sure."},{"startTime":3434.412,"endTime":3437.007,"body":"I'm sure we missed a bunch of stuff,"},{"startTime":3434.412,"endTime":3437.007,"body":"but this is an interesting topic cuz"},{"startTime":3437.007,"endTime":3440.547,"body":"everyone deals with it, but , that"},{"startTime":3437.007,"endTime":3440.547,"body":"you deal with it as in like it's just"},{"startTime":3440.547,"endTime":3442.647,"body":"something we have to, you put up with it."},{"startTime":3442.677,"endTime":3442.887,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3442.887,"endTime":3444.057,"body":"It's just something we"},{"startTime":3442.887,"endTime":3444.057,"body":"have to put up with."},{"startTime":3444.057,"endTime":3444.117,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3444.147,"endTime":3447.977,"body":"We're never gonna be given enough teams"},{"startTime":3444.147,"endTime":3447.977,"body":"to do the work or people to do the work"},{"startTime":3448.032,"endTime":3451.612,"body":"or taskers, especially like my experience"},{"startTime":3448.032,"endTime":3451.612,"body":"and we kind of figure out what to do."},{"startTime":3451.612,"endTime":3454.942,"body":"Like there are real fixes for this yeah"},{"startTime":3455.572,"endTime":3457.572,"body":"I mean maybe if the org actually."},{"startTime":3458.112,"endTime":3461.852,"body":"Delegated to the proper teams,"},{"startTime":3458.112,"endTime":3461.852,"body":"what needs to be done and at the"},{"startTime":3461.852,"endTime":3466.512,"body":"organizational level, separated the"},{"startTime":3461.852,"endTime":3466.512,"body":"budget to what the team needed maybe"},{"startTime":3466.512,"endTime":3470.012,"body":"they wouldn't have so much bloat in"},{"startTime":3466.512,"endTime":3470.012,"body":"the middle of the organization, yeah."},{"startTime":3470.252,"endTime":3472.322,"body":"Maybe they'd be able"},{"startTime":3470.252,"endTime":3472.322,"body":"to run a little leaner."},{"startTime":3473.102,"endTime":3474.917,"body":"There's a, word right there."},{"startTime":3475.097,"endTime":3477.707,"body":"It's just D layer little oh D layer."},{"startTime":3478.067,"endTime":3478.217,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":3479.207,"endTime":3483.287,"body":"Well you know, Hey, if you got other"},{"startTime":3479.207,"endTime":3483.287,"body":"things that could be decentralized"},{"startTime":3483.287,"endTime":3485.567,"body":"other things that could be"},{"startTime":3483.287,"endTime":3485.567,"body":"distributed, distributed as a good one."},{"startTime":3485.597,"endTime":3485.807,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3486.137,"endTime":3490.667,"body":"Other things that could be distributed to"},{"startTime":3486.137,"endTime":3490.667,"body":"the teams in this manner or if there's,"},{"startTime":3490.667,"endTime":3492.947,"body":"I know there's gotta be"},{"startTime":3490.667,"endTime":3492.947,"body":"frameworks out there for this."},{"startTime":3493.197,"endTime":3494.337,"body":"I just don't know about them."},{"startTime":3494.797,"endTime":3497.527,"body":"Maybe there's frameworks for"},{"startTime":3494.797,"endTime":3497.527,"body":"decentralizing your organization"},{"startTime":3497.867,"endTime":3499.662,"body":"and kind of taking advantage"},{"startTime":3497.867,"endTime":3499.662,"body":"of what we're talking about."},{"startTime":3500.127,"endTime":3502.917,"body":"I don't know there, there are,"},{"startTime":3500.127,"endTime":3502.917,"body":"there are some out there I'm sure."},{"startTime":3502.987,"endTime":3505.407,"body":"and I also know that some of"},{"startTime":3502.987,"endTime":3505.407,"body":"these smart people listening and"},{"startTime":3505.407,"endTime":3506.577,"body":"watching could tell us, right."},{"startTime":3506.577,"endTime":3508.857,"body":"So please let us know"},{"startTime":3506.577,"endTime":3508.857,"body":"in the comments below."},{"startTime":3509.067,"endTime":3511.607,"body":"Finite resources back to life, I guess."},{"startTime":3511.637,"endTime":3511.967,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3511.997,"endTime":3515.777,"body":"Doing more with less, do"},{"startTime":3511.997,"endTime":3515.777,"body":"more with less, exactly."},{"startTime":3515.807,"endTime":3517.637,"body":"Doing more with less,"},{"startTime":3515.807,"endTime":3517.637,"body":"doing less with more."},{"startTime":3518.137,"endTime":3520.927,"body":"No, that, that is too"},{"startTime":3518.137,"endTime":3520.927,"body":"common out there already."}]}