{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":4.385,"body":"the ways that people break into"},{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":4.385,"body":"being a product manager,  ways"},{"startTime":4.385,"endTime":5.855,"body":"that people break into product."},{"startTime":6.065,"endTime":6.575,"body":"There we go."},{"startTime":6.63,"endTime":6.75,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":6.75,"endTime":8.729,"body":"There's, there's plenty"},{"startTime":6.75,"endTime":8.729,"body":"of different ways, right?"},{"startTime":8.779,"endTime":11.52,"body":"You think about anybody"},{"startTime":8.779,"endTime":11.52,"body":"who's in, the product space."},{"startTime":11.525,"endTime":12.389,"body":"How did they get in?"},{"startTime":12.395,"endTime":17.995,"body":"Think about that maybe the company brought"},{"startTime":12.395,"endTime":17.995,"body":"somebody fresh in from outside or they"},{"startTime":18.0,"endTime":23.035,"body":"promoted from within somebody who's"},{"startTime":18.0,"endTime":23.035,"body":"been within the organization in a given."},{"startTime":23.36,"endTime":28.375,"body":"Domain, so to speak, whether it's"},{"startTime":23.36,"endTime":28.375,"body":"technology or, or business mm-hmm  and"},{"startTime":28.375,"endTime":30.175,"body":"it can range  the whole spectrum, right."},{"startTime":30.385,"endTime":36.015,"body":"Or, or they've hired someone straight"},{"startTime":30.385,"endTime":36.015,"body":"outta college that doesn't happen, right?"},{"startTime":36.045,"endTime":37.305,"body":"No, it certainly happens."},{"startTime":37.785,"endTime":38.745,"body":"Those are the three ways."},{"startTime":38.745,"endTime":42.565,"body":"And here we are stormy that that"},{"startTime":38.745,"endTime":42.565,"body":"is the reason I was like, ah, we"},{"startTime":42.57,"endTime":45.025,"body":"gotta talk to stormy on the podcast."},{"startTime":45.112,"endTime":48.562,"body":"Because we have polar opposites"},{"startTime":45.112,"endTime":48.562,"body":"of the way we got, we were both"},{"startTime":48.562,"endTime":51.592,"body":"in product mm-hmm,  both product"},{"startTime":48.562,"endTime":51.592,"body":"managers and we have polar opposites."},{"startTime":51.639,"endTime":53.019,"body":"I came up through development teams."},{"startTime":53.024,"endTime":53.949,"body":"I started in QA."},{"startTime":54.924,"endTime":60.204,"body":"and I worked up through development"},{"startTime":54.924,"endTime":60.204,"body":"teams and I came into a product ownership"},{"startTime":60.204,"endTime":64.424,"body":"slash management mm-hmm . And you did"},{"startTime":60.204,"endTime":64.424,"body":"not come through the technical teams."},{"startTime":64.484,"endTime":66.944,"body":"I did not, not even remotely."},{"startTime":67.004,"endTime":68.804,"body":"So I'm actually a registered nurse."},{"startTime":69.644,"endTime":73.664,"body":"And the first half of my"},{"startTime":69.644,"endTime":73.664,"body":"career, I spent in an ICU at a"},{"startTime":73.664,"endTime":76.074,"body":"bedside working with patients."},{"startTime":76.434,"endTime":81.414,"body":"I also was somebody who was not afraid"},{"startTime":76.434,"endTime":81.414,"body":"to disassemble a laptop and put it back"},{"startTime":81.414,"endTime":85.974,"body":"together, which was one of the things"},{"startTime":81.414,"endTime":85.974,"body":"that ended up landing me a job in the it"},{"startTime":86.064,"endTime":92.254,"body":"department at the hospital I was working"},{"startTime":86.064,"endTime":92.254,"body":"at essentially they wanted someone who"},{"startTime":92.254,"endTime":98.164,"body":"was comfortable enough to learn and"},{"startTime":92.254,"endTime":98.164,"body":"not be intimidated by , software and it"},{"startTime":98.284,"endTime":105.174,"body":"in general And someone that could walk"},{"startTime":98.284,"endTime":105.174,"body":"walk the talk in regards to healthcare."},{"startTime":105.414,"endTime":110.194,"body":"Yeah , this was at the transition or"},{"startTime":105.414,"endTime":110.194,"body":"the beginning of the affordable care act"},{"startTime":110.824,"endTime":118.554,"body":"and really getting providers physicians"},{"startTime":110.824,"endTime":118.554,"body":"involved, trained and bought into."},{"startTime":119.054,"endTime":122.204,"body":"Using an electronic medical record system."},{"startTime":122.234,"endTime":126.344,"body":"Mm-hmm . And so I became the"},{"startTime":122.234,"endTime":126.344,"body":"face of it for a hospital, and"},{"startTime":126.344,"endTime":128.604,"body":"that was my big break into it."},{"startTime":129.074,"endTime":131.864,"body":"Yeah, it was a few years later"},{"startTime":129.074,"endTime":131.864,"body":"before I actually got into product."},{"startTime":131.864,"endTime":134.124,"body":"And that was a whole nother big accident."},{"startTime":134.984,"endTime":138.584,"body":"But that happened developing"},{"startTime":134.984,"endTime":138.584,"body":"a care management application"},{"startTime":138.584,"endTime":139.274,"body":"said, you know what?"},{"startTime":139.574,"endTime":141.284,"body":"We've got multiple product owners."},{"startTime":141.284,"endTime":145.664,"body":"We are building this care management"},{"startTime":141.284,"endTime":145.664,"body":"utilization manage application."},{"startTime":145.764,"endTime":151.264,"body":"Ground up  we have multiple product owners"},{"startTime":145.764,"endTime":151.264,"body":"and we really want someone in here who"},{"startTime":151.264,"endTime":157.459,"body":"can, again,  walk the talk in regards to"},{"startTime":151.264,"endTime":157.459,"body":"the people that we are trying to serve."},{"startTime":158.009,"endTime":163.889,"body":"And that's how I ended up getting that,"},{"startTime":158.009,"endTime":163.889,"body":"that role and breaking into product , so"},{"startTime":163.919,"endTime":169.799,"body":"I came in with little more than just a"},{"startTime":163.919,"endTime":169.799,"body":"little bit of knowledge of nomenclature in"},{"startTime":169.799,"endTime":177.819,"body":"regards to agile mm-hmm  and and otherwise"},{"startTime":169.799,"endTime":177.819,"body":"no experience in product and worked and"},{"startTime":178.239,"endTime":185.109,"body":"to date the most healthy and productive"},{"startTime":178.239,"endTime":185.109,"body":"agile environment I have ever worked in."},{"startTime":185.609,"endTime":186.359,"body":"That's interesting."},{"startTime":186.359,"endTime":192.269,"body":"So your background as a nurse, you"},{"startTime":186.359,"endTime":192.269,"body":"started off client facing, right."},{"startTime":192.274,"endTime":193.889,"body":"You were there in the ICU, right."},{"startTime":193.919,"endTime":194.879,"body":"With your client."},{"startTime":195.359,"endTime":198.719,"body":"So you kind of understood their their"},{"startTime":195.359,"endTime":198.719,"body":"pain points literally in this case."},{"startTime":198.719,"endTime":202.169,"body":"But, that's important because"},{"startTime":198.719,"endTime":202.169,"body":"you're bringing that knowledge."},{"startTime":202.669,"endTime":206.029,"body":"to the technology world when"},{"startTime":202.669,"endTime":206.029,"body":"you become a product person, a"},{"startTime":206.029,"endTime":207.469,"body":"product owner, product manager."},{"startTime":207.469,"endTime":207.709,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":208.289,"endTime":211.874,"body":"I feel like in that third instance"},{"startTime":208.289,"endTime":211.874,"body":"that we quickly glossed over"},{"startTime":211.879,"endTime":215.864,"body":"somebody coming in fresh from school"},{"startTime":211.879,"endTime":215.864,"body":"mm-hmm  they, they lack that, mm."},{"startTime":215.924,"endTime":220.424,"body":"They may have the theoretical knowledge"},{"startTime":215.924,"endTime":220.424,"body":"of what product marketing or, or"},{"startTime":220.424,"endTime":222.074,"body":"even just marketing is all about."},{"startTime":222.144,"endTime":222.434,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":222.674,"endTime":224.774,"body":"I don't think there's product ownership."},{"startTime":224.774,"endTime":226.364,"body":"That's being taught in schools."},{"startTime":226.364,"endTime":227.474,"body":"It's product marketing."},{"startTime":227.594,"endTime":227.894,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":227.984,"endTime":233.374,"body":"And, and so when they come in, they're"},{"startTime":227.984,"endTime":233.374,"body":"keen to practice the theory they learned."},{"startTime":233.824,"endTime":237.814,"body":"But they don't have the"},{"startTime":233.824,"endTime":237.814,"body":"connection with the end user."},{"startTime":238.204,"endTime":238.444,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":238.474,"endTime":244.024,"body":"And without that, I feel like you're off"},{"startTime":238.474,"endTime":244.024,"body":"to a Rocky start in product management,"},{"startTime":244.234,"endTime":246.174,"body":"part of ownership, so let me see if I can"},{"startTime":246.654,"endTime":247.914,"body":"people straight outta college."},{"startTime":247.919,"endTime":251.949,"body":"if we're going to go with the third, a"},{"startTime":247.919,"endTime":251.949,"body":"third category the, the one that I know"},{"startTime":251.949,"endTime":257.839,"body":"the least about, and I'm gonna support"},{"startTime":251.949,"endTime":257.839,"body":"them as a, an argument on arguing agile."},{"startTime":257.869,"endTime":258.289,"body":"Here we go."},{"startTime":258.289,"endTime":258.379,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"startTime":259.009,"endTime":262.339,"body":"I would say the advantage of people"},{"startTime":259.009,"endTime":262.339,"body":"who don't know anything about either"},{"startTime":262.344,"endTime":268.719,"body":"the domain or how dev teams work"},{"startTime":262.344,"endTime":268.719,"body":"is we can train them from scratch."},{"startTime":269.319,"endTime":269.679,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":269.679,"endTime":274.319,"body":"We can train them from the ground up"},{"startTime":269.679,"endTime":274.319,"body":"and they don't have any bad habits."},{"startTime":275.059,"endTime":275.599,"body":"I wanna teach."},{"startTime":275.599,"endTime":276.709,"body":"'em your own bad habits."},{"startTime":276.709,"endTime":280.939,"body":"I wanna say bad habits, but I wanna, I"},{"startTime":276.709,"endTime":280.939,"body":"also want to go on a tangent about like"},{"startTime":280.989,"endTime":287.124,"body":"you know like enterprise Azure coach,"},{"startTime":280.989,"endTime":287.124,"body":"O like Hey, give me a Gantt chart about"},{"startTime":287.124,"endTime":291.324,"body":"how long it's gonna take to apply this"},{"startTime":287.124,"endTime":291.324,"body":"software and enterprise agile coach"},{"startTime":291.354,"endTime":295.394,"body":"will will say I'm not giving you a G"},{"startTime":291.354,"endTime":295.394,"body":"chart because that is not something"},{"startTime":295.394,"endTime":297.164,"body":"that you do in agile development."},{"startTime":297.374,"endTime":298.484,"body":"There's no reason to do that."},{"startTime":298.484,"endTime":301.244,"body":"Like these people will do"},{"startTime":298.484,"endTime":301.244,"body":"that because they don't really"},{"startTime":301.249,"endTime":302.924,"body":"know any better to do that."},{"startTime":302.924,"endTime":308.654,"body":"So I can get people that won't really"},{"startTime":302.924,"endTime":308.654,"body":"challenge my assumption way of doing bus."},{"startTime":308.654,"endTime":309.764,"body":"I, I don't know what to call it."},{"startTime":309.764,"endTime":310.294,"body":"Assumptions way."},{"startTime":310.294,"endTime":311.894,"body":"They don't have a way of doing business."},{"startTime":311.894,"endTime":316.214,"body":"This is I'm assuming here, but this might"},{"startTime":311.894,"endTime":316.214,"body":"be their first job out of college maybe,"},{"startTime":316.694,"endTime":318.454,"body":"or out of business school or something."},{"startTime":318.784,"endTime":319.714,"body":"So you're right."},{"startTime":319.714,"endTime":320.944,"body":"They don't have the baggage."},{"startTime":321.124,"endTime":326.284,"body":"But when they get into an organization,"},{"startTime":321.124,"endTime":326.284,"body":"they learn those, the organization's"},{"startTime":326.824,"endTime":328.924,"body":"quote, unquote bad practices as well."},{"startTime":328.924,"endTime":329.134,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":329.154,"endTime":331.799,"body":"Mm-hmm   because they don't know any"},{"startTime":329.154,"endTime":331.799,"body":"better and that's the bottom line."},{"startTime":331.799,"endTime":337.199,"body":"They don't have something to bring to"},{"startTime":331.799,"endTime":337.199,"body":"the table when it comes to experience of"},{"startTime":337.199,"endTime":339.779,"body":"having seen it a couple of different ways."},{"startTime":339.839,"endTime":340.41,"body":"Mm-hmm . Yeah."},{"startTime":340.415,"endTime":343.715,"body":"and that's where in either of"},{"startTime":340.415,"endTime":343.715,"body":"the other two cases, whether"},{"startTime":343.925,"endTime":348.105,"body":"one enters the, the field from"},{"startTime":343.925,"endTime":348.105,"body":"a technical perspective you did."},{"startTime":348.225,"endTime":348.435,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":348.555,"endTime":353.835,"body":"Or from a SME angle that you did"},{"startTime":348.555,"endTime":353.835,"body":"mm-hmm  in both cases, you have"},{"startTime":353.84,"endTime":355.755,"body":"something you can bring mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":356.025,"endTime":358.185,"body":"And both are valid approaches."},{"startTime":358.185,"endTime":362.385,"body":"I feel it's just that I think you"},{"startTime":358.185,"endTime":362.385,"body":"have to be very open minded about"},{"startTime":362.895,"endTime":364.185,"body":"what it is that you don't know."},{"startTime":364.19,"endTime":366.2,"body":"Where are your weak points, right?"},{"startTime":366.36,"endTime":366.65,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":366.655,"endTime":369.35,"body":"And you need to be"},{"startTime":366.655,"endTime":369.35,"body":"actively addressing those."},{"startTime":369.965,"endTime":374.915,"body":"cuz real, most organizations do not do"},{"startTime":369.965,"endTime":374.915,"body":"a good job of redressing that deficiency"},{"startTime":374.915,"endTime":378.725,"body":"in anybody mm-hmm  and I mean that,"},{"startTime":374.915,"endTime":378.725,"body":"that word in the best possible way."},{"startTime":379.085,"endTime":380.375,"body":"It's not that you're deficient."},{"startTime":380.375,"endTime":382.955,"body":"It's just that you're not"},{"startTime":380.375,"endTime":382.955,"body":"well rounded just yet."},{"startTime":383.015,"endTime":383.075,"body":"No."},{"startTime":383.285,"endTime":389.665,"body":"If I'm gonna argue this point and try to"},{"startTime":383.285,"endTime":389.665,"body":"try to try to actually argue it right."},{"startTime":389.965,"endTime":394.04,"body":"The interesting point about someone"},{"startTime":389.965,"endTime":394.04,"body":"who doesn't have demand expertise nor."},{"startTime":394.54,"endTime":400.04,"body":"expertise on development teams"},{"startTime":394.54,"endTime":400.04,"body":"maybe could be that they come"},{"startTime":400.04,"endTime":402.05,"body":"with no preconceived notions."},{"startTime":402.53,"endTime":402.8,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":402.86,"endTime":404.87,"body":"So they they're gonna question"},{"startTime":402.86,"endTime":404.87,"body":"everything that would, that"},{"startTime":404.87,"endTime":406.37,"body":"would be the best case scenario."},{"startTime":406.61,"endTime":410.09,"body":"They're learning the best of everything"},{"startTime":406.61,"endTime":410.09,"body":"because they don't know anything."},{"startTime":410.81,"endTime":411.05,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":411.08,"endTime":414.59,"body":"I I'm gonna assume that they're getting"},{"startTime":411.08,"endTime":414.59,"body":"active mentorship from the organization."},{"startTime":414.8,"endTime":419.46,"body":"They're getting resources, they're being"},{"startTime":414.8,"endTime":419.46,"body":"given a framework where they can take"},{"startTime":419.49,"endTime":424.68,"body":"the best of everything they're seeing"},{"startTime":419.49,"endTime":424.68,"body":"and run with that Hey, how do I decide"},{"startTime":424.68,"endTime":426.63,"body":"what the best thing to do next would be?"},{"startTime":426.63,"endTime":428.01,"body":"Well, I gather some evidence."},{"startTime":428.28,"endTime":431.53,"body":"I talk to customers and I decide,"},{"startTime":428.28,"endTime":431.53,"body":"and, and they know that's a general"},{"startTime":431.53,"endTime":435.785,"body":"framework, but they're being guided"},{"startTime":431.53,"endTime":435.785,"body":"by principle rather than being guided"},{"startTime":435.79,"endTime":439.385,"body":"by, I don't know, past experiences"},{"startTime":435.79,"endTime":439.385,"body":"they don't have anything to anchor on"},{"startTime":439.685,"endTime":441.455,"body":"that will anchor their judgment on."},{"startTime":441.665,"endTime":444.575,"body":"Whereas someone who has domain"},{"startTime":441.665,"endTime":444.575,"body":"expertise might say like, well, I"},{"startTime":444.575,"endTime":447.395,"body":"don't want to go down that road, or I"},{"startTime":444.575,"endTime":447.395,"body":"don't wanna make that kind of feature."},{"startTime":447.4,"endTime":450.515,"body":"I don't wanna serve this kind of"},{"startTime":447.4,"endTime":450.515,"body":"customer, cuz there's no money there."},{"startTime":450.695,"endTime":453.485,"body":"Or maybe that customer already has"},{"startTime":450.695,"endTime":453.485,"body":"a great product for this and they'll"},{"startTime":453.49,"endTime":455.43,"body":"never buy our stuff or whatever  right."},{"startTime":455.435,"endTime":458.67,"body":"They, they won't anchor on anything they"},{"startTime":455.435,"endTime":458.67,"body":"won't grasp on anything cuz they don't"},{"startTime":458.67,"endTime":460.47,"body":"know anything which is good and bad."},{"startTime":460.59,"endTime":460.92,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":460.92,"endTime":461.67,"body":"It's good and bad."},{"startTime":461.67,"endTime":465.75,"body":"So your assumption that the organization"},{"startTime":461.67,"endTime":465.75,"body":"gives all the support that's needed"},{"startTime":465.75,"endTime":467.46,"body":"to this person that's coming in."},{"startTime":468.27,"endTime":469.5,"body":"You could challenge the assumption."},{"startTime":469.5,"endTime":472.83,"body":"There, there aren't many that do that"},{"startTime":469.5,"endTime":472.83,"body":"because the organization immediately"},{"startTime":472.83,"endTime":478.35,"body":"wants that person to be productive rather"},{"startTime":472.83,"endTime":478.35,"body":"than nurture them for any length of time."},{"startTime":478.53,"endTime":479.88,"body":"Other than the initial induction."},{"startTime":479.94,"endTime":481.74,"body":"Oh, I was for onboarding."},{"startTime":482.04,"endTime":483.33,"body":"You're supposed to hit the ground running."},{"startTime":483.33,"endTime":483.45,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":483.45,"endTime":483.69,"body":"Sorry."},{"startTime":483.72,"endTime":484.02,"body":"Sorry."},{"startTime":484.02,"endTime":488.6,"body":"I was, I was in, my ideal organization in"},{"startTime":484.02,"endTime":488.6,"body":"the sky , they weren't like every week,"},{"startTime":488.6,"endTime":490.1,"body":"they're like, you're not productive yet."},{"startTime":490.58,"endTime":490.67,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":490.73,"endTime":492.5,"body":"Like why you, why you not productive yet?"},{"startTime":492.6,"endTime":495.11,"body":"That, that wasn't happening  they"},{"startTime":492.6,"endTime":495.11,"body":"realized that you were new."},{"startTime":495.53,"endTime":495.59,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":495.74,"endTime":498.59,"body":"They were giving you time to learn"},{"startTime":495.74,"endTime":498.59,"body":"like the, the, the, the whole like"},{"startTime":498.94,"endTime":503.58,"body":"two week four week, six week, 12 week,"},{"startTime":498.94,"endTime":503.58,"body":"whatever plan of like what you should be"},{"startTime":503.58,"endTime":505.29,"body":"doing, that, that doesn't really apply."},{"startTime":505.29,"endTime":508.99,"body":"Like they're looking at you in"},{"startTime":505.29,"endTime":508.99,"body":"like quarter quarters or halfs."},{"startTime":509.41,"endTime":513.61,"body":"Of the year and that's the plan and"},{"startTime":509.41,"endTime":513.61,"body":"there are, are some organizations"},{"startTime":513.615,"endTime":515.17,"body":"like you're new, you're new, right?"},{"startTime":515.17,"endTime":515.32,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":515.325,"endTime":515.95,"body":"You're new, you're new."},{"startTime":516.13,"endTime":520.9,"body":"And those organizations to your point,"},{"startTime":516.13,"endTime":520.9,"body":", they actually do give you the rope to"},{"startTime":520.9,"endTime":522.64,"body":"play with and say, here's the problem."},{"startTime":522.64,"endTime":523.93,"body":"You figure out how to solve it."},{"startTime":523.99,"endTime":526.87,"body":"Mm-hmm  thinking through this"},{"startTime":523.99,"endTime":526.87,"body":"NASA Springs to mind, right?"},{"startTime":526.87,"endTime":528.01,"body":"There's a program in NASA."},{"startTime":528.775,"endTime":532.165,"body":"College graduates are brought"},{"startTime":528.775,"endTime":532.165,"body":"in and just given problems."},{"startTime":532.225,"endTime":532.405,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":532.585,"endTime":536.815,"body":"And not necessarily any direction"},{"startTime":532.585,"endTime":536.815,"body":"of how to solve it because they"},{"startTime":536.82,"endTime":539.005,"body":"wanna tap into some new creativity."},{"startTime":539.005,"endTime":543.865,"body":"Right , some innovation there, but that's"},{"startTime":539.005,"endTime":543.865,"body":"very much the exception, unfortunately."},{"startTime":543.895,"endTime":544.375,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":544.855,"endTime":545.695,"body":"So I have a thought."},{"startTime":545.695,"endTime":549.96,"body":"So a couple of actually, so a"},{"startTime":545.695,"endTime":549.96,"body":"little bit counter to what you're"},{"startTime":549.96,"endTime":552.15,"body":"saying, and, and that is that."},{"startTime":552.21,"endTime":555.57,"body":"So as a new, for instance,"},{"startTime":552.21,"endTime":555.57,"body":"college student coming out, you"},{"startTime":555.57,"endTime":557.37,"body":"don't know what you don't know."},{"startTime":557.43,"endTime":557.82,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":557.825,"endTime":560.16,"body":"Mm-hmm  so is your"},{"startTime":557.825,"endTime":560.16,"body":"first job to your point."},{"startTime":560.16,"endTime":564.99,"body":"If you're being hopefully mentored, you"},{"startTime":560.16,"endTime":564.99,"body":"are being led, you are being developed."},{"startTime":565.02,"endTime":565.32,"body":"Hopefully."},{"startTime":565.32,"endTime":565.68,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":565.77,"endTime":566.13,"body":"Couple."},{"startTime":566.13,"endTime":566.37,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":566.37,"endTime":568.95,"body":"Hopefully, but there's a couple"},{"startTime":566.37,"endTime":568.95,"body":"assumptions there being made."},{"startTime":569.19,"endTime":573.24,"body":"Number one, assuming that the"},{"startTime":569.19,"endTime":573.24,"body":"organizations even are mentoring, but."},{"startTime":573.74,"endTime":574.73,"body":"are they mentoring?"},{"startTime":574.73,"endTime":575.75,"body":"Are they teaching?"},{"startTime":576.26,"endTime":580.7,"body":"What are the values and the concepts"},{"startTime":576.26,"endTime":580.7,"body":"and the culture in that organization?"},{"startTime":580.7,"endTime":587.24,"body":"Because, because this new person in,"},{"startTime":580.7,"endTime":587.24,"body":"in the job force starting their career,"},{"startTime":587.42,"endTime":592.49,"body":"what they're learning here is their first"},{"startTime":587.42,"endTime":592.49,"body":"experience and is a baseline for their,"},{"startTime":592.52,"endTime":598.03,"body":"their, their career and is what they are"},{"startTime":592.52,"endTime":598.03,"body":"assuming is what we are speaking about"},{"startTime":598.03,"endTime":602.02,"body":"in regards to product, whether it be"},{"startTime":598.03,"endTime":602.02,"body":"product ownership, product management"},{"startTime":602.07,"endTime":603.33,"body":"so, okay."},{"startTime":603.33,"endTime":611.22,"body":"Is this really an agile environment or"},{"startTime":603.33,"endTime":611.22,"body":"is it something that is some quasi agile?"},{"startTime":611.22,"endTime":616.89,"body":"So even so what they're taking on,"},{"startTime":611.22,"endTime":616.89,"body":"what they're absorbing and what"},{"startTime":616.89,"endTime":620.67,"body":"they're learning is going to be"},{"startTime":616.89,"endTime":620.67,"body":"the baseline of what they assume,"},{"startTime":621.03,"endTime":624.6,"body":"at least at this point is going"},{"startTime":621.03,"endTime":624.6,"body":"to going follow through with them."},{"startTime":624.6,"endTime":625.53,"body":"So that's point number one."},{"startTime":625.59,"endTime":625.74,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":626.1,"endTime":630.36,"body":"The other thing I would just say is"},{"startTime":626.1,"endTime":630.36,"body":"just to bring this up and that is that."},{"startTime":630.86,"endTime":635.53,"body":"in regards to kind of"},{"startTime":630.86,"endTime":635.53,"body":"this the after times now."},{"startTime":635.56,"endTime":635.98,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":635.98,"endTime":640.03,"body":"So be, and this almost is kind of"},{"startTime":635.98,"endTime":640.03,"body":"taught, made sense in the before times."},{"startTime":640.03,"endTime":641.17,"body":"So before COVID right."},{"startTime":641.175,"endTime":647.44,"body":"When we had mentorship and we had people"},{"startTime":641.175,"endTime":647.44,"body":"who were in an office or co-located,"},{"startTime":647.445,"endTime":653.59,"body":"and had the ability to see, be involved"},{"startTime":647.445,"endTime":653.59,"body":"with absorbed through osmosis and"},{"startTime":653.93,"endTime":656.93,"body":"really kind of see experiences right."},{"startTime":657.2,"endTime":663.85,"body":"Where now they're regulated to intentional"},{"startTime":657.2,"endTime":663.85,"body":"half hour to hour long meetings and"},{"startTime":663.85,"endTime":669.2,"body":"really have a lot of that opportunity"},{"startTime":663.85,"endTime":669.2,"body":"to learn and develop taken away."},{"startTime":669.38,"endTime":669.59,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":669.68,"endTime":671.78,"body":"So that has to be really intentional."},{"startTime":671.84,"endTime":672.08,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":672.47,"endTime":674.69,"body":"So those are just my"},{"startTime":672.47,"endTime":674.69,"body":"couple of points on that."},{"startTime":674.96,"endTime":677.47,"body":"to the first point, I"},{"startTime":674.96,"endTime":677.47,"body":"don't know oh, my hope."},{"startTime":677.47,"endTime":680.7,"body":"I hope you have a good,   hope"},{"startTime":677.47,"endTime":680.7,"body":"you have a good point on this one."},{"startTime":680.7,"endTime":681.75,"body":"Cuz I certainly don't."},{"startTime":681.75,"endTime":684.24,"body":"I was like the, the first point"},{"startTime":681.75,"endTime":684.24,"body":"I heard that loud and clear"},{"startTime":684.24,"endTime":686.76,"body":"is like, is this really agile?"},{"startTime":686.76,"endTime":688.77,"body":"Is this really what it's like to be a PM?"},{"startTime":688.95,"endTime":689.28,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":689.28,"endTime":692.535,"body":"In my first role or whatever outta"},{"startTime":689.28,"endTime":692.535,"body":"call it Hey, I went through, I went"},{"startTime":692.535,"endTime":694.605,"body":"through school, I went some extra time."},{"startTime":694.605,"endTime":695.525,"body":"I got my MBA."},{"startTime":696.015,"endTime":697.245,"body":"This is what they taught me."},{"startTime":697.345,"endTime":699.895,"body":", I was lucky they didn't"},{"startTime":697.345,"endTime":699.895,"body":"teach me about Gantt charts."},{"startTime":700.015,"endTime":701.815,"body":"We'll deal with that one"},{"startTime":700.015,"endTime":701.815,"body":"in a separate episode."},{"startTime":702.075,"endTime":705.015,"body":"If you are lucky enough"},{"startTime":702.075,"endTime":705.015,"body":"to be paired with people."},{"startTime":705.515,"endTime":707.915,"body":"truly get it, get it."},{"startTime":707.915,"endTime":711.765,"body":"I don't know how to describe that one"},{"startTime":707.915,"endTime":711.765,"body":"where it comes through, do the people"},{"startTime":711.765,"endTime":713.295,"body":"you're working for truly get it."},{"startTime":713.295,"endTime":714.915,"body":"Are they just trying to tick boxes?"},{"startTime":714.92,"endTime":717.255,"body":"Cuz you're in some kind of"},{"startTime":714.92,"endTime":717.255,"body":"organization where like agile, just"},{"startTime":717.255,"endTime":718.755,"body":"another box of tick or whatever."},{"startTime":719.035,"endTime":723.235,"body":"I think an easy way to figure this out"},{"startTime":719.035,"endTime":723.235,"body":"if you're in this role or you're straight"},{"startTime":723.235,"endTime":726.085,"body":"outta college, you're not really sure"},{"startTime":723.235,"endTime":726.085,"body":"you're in your first year, whatever."},{"startTime":726.09,"endTime":727.185,"body":"First 18 months I Don."},{"startTime":727.685,"endTime":729.335,"body":"Is the person that you're working for."},{"startTime":729.335,"endTime":731.435,"body":"Are they every week"},{"startTime":729.335,"endTime":731.435,"body":"that you meet with them?"},{"startTime":731.525,"endTime":733.325,"body":"Hopefully you meet with"},{"startTime":731.525,"endTime":733.325,"body":"them every week, right?"},{"startTime":733.335,"endTime":736.54,"body":"Mm-hmm  , every week you meet"},{"startTime":733.335,"endTime":736.54,"body":"with them, are they asking you how"},{"startTime":736.54,"endTime":738.01,"body":"many customers have you talked to?"},{"startTime":738.37,"endTime":740.86,"body":"What has the feedback that"},{"startTime":738.37,"endTime":740.86,"body":"you've gotten from customers"},{"startTime":740.865,"endTime":741.85,"body":"that you've talked to this week?"},{"startTime":742.195,"endTime":742.825,"body":"Bin."},{"startTime":743.215,"endTime":746.275,"body":"And if they're asking you those questions,"},{"startTime":743.215,"endTime":746.275,"body":"you're headed in the right direction."},{"startTime":746.615,"endTime":749.435,"body":"If they're asking you Gantt"},{"startTime":746.615,"endTime":749.435,"body":"chart type questions, or like,"},{"startTime":749.435,"endTime":750.455,"body":"when's this gonna be done?"},{"startTime":750.455,"endTime":751.445,"body":"How's this gonna be done?"},{"startTime":751.45,"endTime":751.985,"body":"That kind of stuff."},{"startTime":751.985,"endTime":754.255,"body":"Like ah, you're in a tough spot."},{"startTime":754.255,"endTime":756.385,"body":"I'm very worried about your future."},{"startTime":756.885,"endTime":757.066,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":757.071,"endTime":757.995,"body":"You're absolutely right."},{"startTime":758.295,"endTime":758.595,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":758.6,"endTime":762.135,"body":"But as a person coming in, in their"},{"startTime":758.6,"endTime":762.135,"body":"first job, they don't know any better."},{"startTime":762.135,"endTime":762.645,"body":"How do you know?"},{"startTime":762.855,"endTime":763.305,"body":"They don't know."},{"startTime":763.305,"endTime":766.81,"body":"They're assuming they're getting what"},{"startTime":763.305,"endTime":766.81,"body":"they're hearing those weekly meetings,"},{"startTime":766.81,"endTime":771.04,"body":"which hopefully they are having"},{"startTime":766.81,"endTime":771.04,"body":"whatever they're being asked for or"},{"startTime":771.045,"endTime":773.38,"body":"whatever they're being asked to produce."},{"startTime":773.65,"endTime":777.53,"body":"This is their impression"},{"startTime":773.65,"endTime":777.53,"body":"of what it is to do it."},{"startTime":777.53,"endTime":777.77,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":778.09,"endTime":781.51,"body":"And I don't know where you're gonna"},{"startTime":778.09,"endTime":781.51,"body":"go home, but I I'm cutting in line."},{"startTime":781.96,"endTime":782.02,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":782.02,"endTime":782.59,"body":"Go, go for it."},{"startTime":782.595,"endTime":784.3,"body":"You're trying to get in the"},{"startTime":782.595,"endTime":784.3,"body":"park and you get your ticket"},{"startTime":784.305,"endTime":785.32,"body":"in your hand and I see you."},{"startTime":785.32,"endTime":788.29,"body":"I'm like, oh, you should get in the"},{"startTime":785.32,"endTime":788.29,"body":"park, but I wanna, I'm cutting right"},{"startTime":788.29,"endTime":789.28,"body":"in front of you because I wanna say"},{"startTime":789.28,"endTime":792.28,"body":"you think every other company is like"},{"startTime":789.28,"endTime":792.28,"body":"this at this point in your career."},{"startTime":792.55,"endTime":797.31,"body":"Mm-hmm  so you are likely interfacing"},{"startTime":792.55,"endTime":797.31,"body":"with engineering managers and whatever."},{"startTime":797.31,"endTime":799.435,"body":"And you're like,  how am I"},{"startTime":797.31,"endTime":799.435,"body":"gonna get my thing built?"},{"startTime":799.865,"endTime":802.465,"body":"I need to talk to these"},{"startTime":799.865,"endTime":802.465,"body":"people to get my thing built."},{"startTime":802.825,"endTime":807.775,"body":"Like you don't have like a vision and"},{"startTime":802.825,"endTime":807.775,"body":"direction and future of the product and"},{"startTime":807.775,"endTime":811.035,"body":"a five year plan and all that, that kind"},{"startTime":807.775,"endTime":811.035,"body":"of like running a good business , all"},{"startTime":811.035,"endTime":815.505,"body":"the stuff that should be coming from"},{"startTime":811.035,"endTime":815.505,"body":"you, what you are bringing to the table."},{"startTime":816.255,"endTime":818.805,"body":"This is why this blows my mind so much."},{"startTime":819.305,"endTime":820.715,"body":"Very early in my career."},{"startTime":821.285,"endTime":825.665,"body":"I was at all the QA people"},{"startTime":821.285,"endTime":825.665,"body":"did business analysis."},{"startTime":826.445,"endTime":828.695,"body":"So I wrote all the requirements."},{"startTime":828.815,"endTime":830.105,"body":"I did user interviews."},{"startTime":830.11,"endTime":834.065,"body":"I did like all the different ways"},{"startTime":830.11,"endTime":834.065,"body":"of interviewing and, and getting"},{"startTime":834.855,"endTime":836.735,"body":"requirements back in the day."},{"startTime":836.735,"endTime":836.945,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":836.995,"endTime":841.605,"body":"Like use your interviews technical"},{"startTime":836.995,"endTime":841.605,"body":"analysis, deep dives on product"},{"startTime":841.755,"endTime":843.165,"body":"workshop, stuff like that."},{"startTime":843.22,"endTime":846.1,"body":"So this blows my mind that you're"},{"startTime":843.22,"endTime":846.1,"body":"gonna take somebody outta college,"},{"startTime":847.07,"endTime":848.02,"body":"shortcut, all that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":848.02,"endTime":851.11,"body":"All, all those learnings"},{"startTime":848.02,"endTime":851.11,"body":"and say, oh, figure out what"},{"startTime":851.11,"endTime":852.07,"body":"the right thing to build is"},{"startTime":852.57,"endTime":856.2,"body":"chances are, they're not even gonna"},{"startTime":852.57,"endTime":856.2,"body":"be offered that question like figure"},{"startTime":856.2,"endTime":858.17,"body":"out, go build the right thing."},{"startTime":858.17,"endTime":861.32,"body":"They're probably gonna be to your"},{"startTime":858.17,"endTime":861.32,"body":"point earlier are going to be."},{"startTime":862.13,"endTime":867.5,"body":"Driven by engineering managers or"},{"startTime":862.13,"endTime":867.5,"body":"line managers in a matrix environment."},{"startTime":867.92,"endTime":872.57,"body":"These managers are focused"},{"startTime":867.92,"endTime":872.57,"body":"largely, typically largely"},{"startTime":872.57,"endTime":876.59,"body":"on utilization, efficiency,"},{"startTime":872.57,"endTime":876.59,"body":"those kinds of measures, right?"},{"startTime":876.59,"endTime":880.85,"body":"As opposed to effectiveness, what"},{"startTime":876.59,"endTime":880.85,"body":"problems are we solving for our customers?"},{"startTime":880.905,"endTime":882.855,"body":"That's unfortunately, very common."},{"startTime":882.915,"endTime":887.695,"body":"What I just described, what is"},{"startTime":882.915,"endTime":887.695,"body":"very less common is to be given"},{"startTime":888.025,"endTime":893.215,"body":"free reign, to say, come in and"},{"startTime":888.025,"endTime":893.215,"body":"you know, here's our product line."},{"startTime":893.965,"endTime":897.655,"body":"Figure out who our customers are,"},{"startTime":893.965,"endTime":897.655,"body":"or here are the customers figure"},{"startTime":897.655,"endTime":901.355,"body":"out the products that we can"},{"startTime":897.655,"endTime":901.355,"body":"fulfill these customers' needs with."},{"startTime":901.415,"endTime":901.565,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":901.685,"endTime":905.855,"body":"That's very, very rare, sadly,"},{"startTime":901.685,"endTime":905.855,"body":"and a person coming outta college."},{"startTime":905.855,"endTime":906.185,"body":"I don't care."},{"startTime":906.19,"endTime":907.805,"body":"They come from the best business school."},{"startTime":908.305,"endTime":909.235,"body":"Mean they're done that."},{"startTime":909.355,"endTime":913.075,"body":"They're not in the best position"},{"startTime":909.355,"endTime":913.075,"body":"to thrive in that scenario."},{"startTime":913.105,"endTime":915.385,"body":"Well, let's cut over to the"},{"startTime":913.105,"endTime":915.385,"body":"supporting argument, cuz I feel"},{"startTime":915.385,"endTime":918.245,"body":"like we've , not represented the"},{"startTime":915.385,"endTime":918.245,"body":"supporting argument very well."},{"startTime":918.395,"endTime":920.885,"body":"Like let's cut over to"},{"startTime":918.395,"endTime":920.885,"body":"the supporting argument."},{"startTime":920.89,"endTime":924.725,"body":"Like is this agile, let's say"},{"startTime":920.89,"endTime":924.725,"body":"you're working for people that Ew, a"},{"startTime":924.755,"endTime":926.765,"body":"traditional waterfall development cycle."},{"startTime":926.82,"endTime":928.98,"body":"they basically have no,"},{"startTime":926.82,"endTime":928.98,"body":"they have no tolerance for"},{"startTime":929.16,"endTime":930.48,"body":"traditional waterfall at all."},{"startTime":930.63,"endTime":933.24,"body":"They only have tolerance for"},{"startTime":930.63,"endTime":933.24,"body":"talking customer, decide what to"},{"startTime":933.245,"endTime":935.46,"body":"do, change your backlog, do that."},{"startTime":936.24,"endTime":936.51,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":936.51,"endTime":939.15,"body":"They, they they're hardcore"},{"startTime":936.51,"endTime":939.15,"body":"just to the customer."},{"startTime":940.14,"endTime":943.71,"body":"If you are straight outta college"},{"startTime":940.14,"endTime":943.71,"body":"and you work for those type of"},{"startTime":943.71,"endTime":950.51,"body":"people, you will get a very customer"},{"startTime":943.71,"endTime":950.51,"body":"centric attitude very quickly."},{"startTime":950.915,"endTime":953.645,"body":"And you'll never have a lot of the"},{"startTime":950.915,"endTime":953.645,"body":"problems that we're talking about."},{"startTime":953.695,"endTime":957.655,"body":"The reason I bring this up is because"},{"startTime":953.695,"endTime":957.655,"body":"somebody asked me what agile was and I"},{"startTime":957.655,"endTime":960.475,"body":"stopped for a second cause I was like,"},{"startTime":957.655,"endTime":960.475,"body":"I don't, I don't know how to answer."},{"startTime":960.475,"endTime":961.945,"body":"That's too basic of a question for me."},{"startTime":961.945,"endTime":962.975,"body":"I don't know how to answer that."},{"startTime":962.98,"endTime":965.815,"body":"I was like, cause this, get"},{"startTime":962.98,"endTime":965.815,"body":"on like stop the training."},{"startTime":965.82,"endTime":966.475,"body":"I gotta get off."},{"startTime":966.525,"endTime":968.385,"body":"but what, what I ended up telling him"},{"startTime":968.435,"endTime":973.195,"body":"is I'm gonna talk to the customer and"},{"startTime":968.435,"endTime":973.195,"body":"ask 'em what they would like the most."},{"startTime":973.585,"endTime":978.405,"body":"And then I'm gonna take that away"},{"startTime":973.585,"endTime":978.405,"body":"and work with my development team for"},{"startTime":978.405,"endTime":982.275,"body":"two or three days and see what we can"},{"startTime":978.405,"endTime":982.275,"body":"build that supports what they ask for."},{"startTime":982.575,"endTime":986.175,"body":"And then in two or three days, we'll"},{"startTime":982.575,"endTime":986.175,"body":"call the customer back up and show"},{"startTime":986.175,"endTime":988.125,"body":"them what we did in two or three days."},{"startTime":988.425,"endTime":992.265,"body":"And then based on if they like"},{"startTime":988.425,"endTime":992.265,"body":"it or not, we'll change what"},{"startTime":992.265,"endTime":994.005,"body":"we did and do something else."},{"startTime":994.005,"endTime":995.595,"body":"And then two or three days"},{"startTime":994.005,"endTime":995.595,"body":"we'll meet with them again."},{"startTime":995.835,"endTime":998.12,"body":"I was like I forget a backlog"},{"startTime":995.835,"endTime":998.12,"body":"and forget all that stuff."},{"startTime":998.12,"endTime":1000.22,"body":"I was like, I'm gonna have one story."},{"startTime":1000.64,"endTime":1003.28,"body":"And every two or three days, I'm gonna"},{"startTime":1000.64,"endTime":1003.28,"body":"meet with the customer and look at"},{"startTime":1003.37,"endTime":1005.05,"body":"what they like about that story or not."},{"startTime":1005.26,"endTime":1009.31,"body":"And I was like, forget sprints"},{"startTime":1005.26,"endTime":1009.31,"body":"and scaling and  forget all."},{"startTime":1009.81,"endTime":1014.19,"body":". I was like, if you can do that, if you can"},{"startTime":1009.81,"endTime":1014.19,"body":"focus on that, just talk to the customer"},{"startTime":1014.37,"endTime":1016.14,"body":"couple days, show them something else."},{"startTime":1016.23,"endTime":1018.27,"body":"Talk with 'em couple days"},{"startTime":1016.23,"endTime":1018.27,"body":"more show 'em something else."},{"startTime":1018.42,"endTime":1023.89,"body":"I was like, if you can do that,"},{"startTime":1018.42,"endTime":1023.89,"body":"you will be ahead of 95% of the"},{"startTime":1023.89,"endTime":1027.07,"body":"agile organizations that are doing"},{"startTime":1023.89,"endTime":1027.07,"body":"software development out there."},{"startTime":1027.1,"endTime":1028.33,"body":"If you can just do that."},{"startTime":1028.87,"endTime":1031.65,"body":"And that was my response"},{"startTime":1028.87,"endTime":1031.65,"body":"to like, what is agile?"},{"startTime":1031.655,"endTime":1033.24,"body":"What does that mean as a product person?"},{"startTime":1033.24,"endTime":1034.02,"body":"What does that mean?"},{"startTime":1034.52,"endTime":1038.06,"body":"Sounds a lot like some values and"},{"startTime":1034.52,"endTime":1038.06,"body":"principles that happen to come along"},{"startTime":1038.06,"endTime":1042.31,"body":"with I mean just saying, I mean, I"},{"startTime":1038.06,"endTime":1042.31,"body":"heard you saying literally talking"},{"startTime":1042.31,"endTime":1046.18,"body":"about putting the customer first"},{"startTime":1042.31,"endTime":1046.18,"body":"mm-hmm  and feedback loops and right."},{"startTime":1046.185,"endTime":1047.655,"body":"That's what I heard you saying."},{"startTime":1047.705,"endTime":1047.995,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1048.045,"endTime":1051.515,"body":"So how you do that, but keeping those"},{"startTime":1048.045,"endTime":1051.515,"body":"top of minds, that's that mindset."},{"startTime":1052.015,"endTime":1052.255,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1052.255,"endTime":1053.875,"body":"I guess the only, yeah, I agree fully."},{"startTime":1053.875,"endTime":1054.475,"body":"Well, you said."},{"startTime":1055.33,"endTime":1056.41,"body":"Exception to that."},{"startTime":1056.415,"endTime":1059.62,"body":"And it's really a very"},{"startTime":1056.415,"endTime":1059.62,"body":"exceptional exception."},{"startTime":1059.65,"endTime":1060.4,"body":"Is that a phrase?"},{"startTime":1060.56,"endTime":1061.04,"body":"it is now."},{"startTime":1061.1,"endTime":1061.64,"body":"It is now."},{"startTime":1061.79,"endTime":1066.52,"body":"So if you are a super visionary, that"},{"startTime":1061.79,"endTime":1066.52,"body":"super Villa like super villain, no super"},{"startTime":1066.525,"endTime":1070.21,"body":"visionary Steve jobs, you don't ask the"},{"startTime":1066.525,"endTime":1070.21,"body":"customer, you make something cuz you"},{"startTime":1070.215,"endTime":1072.0,"body":"know, there's a need out there, right?"},{"startTime":1072.0,"endTime":1072.32,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1072.325,"endTime":1072.7,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1073.06,"endTime":1075.19,"body":"You didn't ask anybody"},{"startTime":1073.06,"endTime":1075.19,"body":"before he produced the, I."},{"startTime":1075.925,"endTime":1080.215,"body":"He knew there was a, there was a"},{"startTime":1075.925,"endTime":1080.215,"body":"need for a portable music device."},{"startTime":1080.245,"endTime":1080.305,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1080.305,"endTime":1081.265,"body":"And he came up with it."},{"startTime":1081.865,"endTime":1084.055,"body":"Well, he actually, wasn't the"},{"startTime":1081.865,"endTime":1084.055,"body":"first one who came up with it."},{"startTime":1084.055,"endTime":1086.605,"body":"Sony came out with a Walkman"},{"startTime":1084.055,"endTime":1086.605,"body":"first didn't I, I forget."},{"startTime":1086.635,"endTime":1087.595,"body":"But anyway, Sony."},{"startTime":1087.655,"endTime":1087.985,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1087.99,"endTime":1092.575,"body":"So in this example, that's a rare"},{"startTime":1087.99,"endTime":1092.575,"body":"example where you don't lead with"},{"startTime":1092.575,"endTime":1094.615,"body":"the customer mm-hmm , but yeah."},{"startTime":1094.615,"endTime":1099.055,"body":"I mean, 99.9% of the time you do,"},{"startTime":1094.615,"endTime":1099.055,"body":"because, or you should, cause you"},{"startTime":1099.055,"endTime":1100.345,"body":"don't know what their needs are."},{"startTime":1100.405,"endTime":1102.925,"body":"You need to know what their"},{"startTime":1100.405,"endTime":1102.925,"body":"needs are fundamental."},{"startTime":1102.995,"endTime":1105.805,"body":"I think, I mean, to that point, he did"},{"startTime":1102.995,"endTime":1105.805,"body":"know what the customers needs are based"},{"startTime":1105.805,"endTime":1109.835,"body":"on his personal, he knew, what he wanted"},{"startTime":1105.805,"endTime":1109.835,"body":"and what his friends wanted and what, so,"},{"startTime":1109.84,"endTime":1111.845,"body":"I mean, he really did know what was out."},{"startTime":1111.875,"endTime":1115.625,"body":"What was even though he wasn't necessarily"},{"startTime":1111.875,"endTime":1115.625,"body":"engaging directly with the customers."},{"startTime":1115.685,"endTime":1115.805,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1115.985,"endTime":1116.795,"body":"He knew what they needed."},{"startTime":1117.455,"endTime":1117.665,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1118.165,"endTime":1119.845,"body":"I feel because stormy is here."},{"startTime":1119.845,"endTime":1124.49,"body":"I feel we should talk about the,"},{"startTime":1119.845,"endTime":1124.49,"body":"the, the specific path of breaking"},{"startTime":1124.49,"endTime":1128.48,"body":"into product with domain experience"},{"startTime":1124.49,"endTime":1128.48,"body":"and not having technical experience"},{"startTime":1128.48,"endTime":1134.165,"body":"you said you came into the product"},{"startTime":1128.48,"endTime":1134.165,"body":"space from a domain knowledge background"},{"startTime":1134.225,"endTime":1140.995,"body":"mm-hmm  and what really kind of catalyzed"},{"startTime":1134.225,"endTime":1140.995,"body":"that move was your your pension."},{"startTime":1141.025,"endTime":1141.895,"body":"Can I say that word?"},{"startTime":1142.195,"endTime":1142.915,"body":"It's a French word."},{"startTime":1143.005,"endTime":1143.935,"body":"Oh, BA yeah."},{"startTime":1143.935,"endTime":1144.195,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1144.2,"endTime":1144.985,"body":"We love French words."},{"startTime":1144.99,"endTime":1147.455,"body":"We love, we love French"},{"startTime":1144.99,"endTime":1147.455,"body":"words for technology, right?"},{"startTime":1147.455,"endTime":1151.43,"body":"So you said you weren't afraid of"},{"startTime":1147.455,"endTime":1151.43,"body":"pull machines apart and together, . So"},{"startTime":1151.43,"endTime":1156.07,"body":"that I think kind of leveraged"},{"startTime":1151.43,"endTime":1156.07,"body":"your move into into this space."},{"startTime":1156.12,"endTime":1162.14,"body":"I suppose it's not necessarily"},{"startTime":1156.12,"endTime":1162.14,"body":"critical, but certainly helpful."},{"startTime":1162.32,"endTime":1168.04,"body":"Mm-hmm , I mean, to be intimidated"},{"startTime":1162.32,"endTime":1168.04,"body":"by technology software, I think"},{"startTime":1168.04,"endTime":1170.23,"body":"would put you at a huge disadvantage."},{"startTime":1170.235,"endTime":1173.014,"body":"And  I honestly don't think this"},{"startTime":1170.235,"endTime":1173.014,"body":"is a job that you would probably be"},{"startTime":1173.014,"endTime":1174.574,"body":"searching for if that were the case."},{"startTime":1174.574,"endTime":1174.664,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1174.664,"endTime":1177.214,"body":"I mean, to be very honest, I don't, I"},{"startTime":1174.664,"endTime":1177.214,"body":"don't feel like this is something you"},{"startTime":1177.214,"endTime":1184.084,"body":"would be that you would be looking for"},{"startTime":1177.214,"endTime":1184.084,"body":"mm-hmm  so yes, that made this an option"},{"startTime":1184.089,"endTime":1189.514,"body":"or, or created an option or an opening"},{"startTime":1184.089,"endTime":1189.514,"body":"for me and, and the fact that there"},{"startTime":1189.514,"endTime":1191.764,"body":"was also some luck and timing there."},{"startTime":1191.824,"endTime":1197.824,"body":"So I was in healthcare at a huge"},{"startTime":1191.824,"endTime":1197.824,"body":"transitional point where they were needing"},{"startTime":1198.054,"endTime":1206.134,"body":"someone to bridge that gap between the"},{"startTime":1198.054,"endTime":1206.134,"body":"end user and technology and wanting"},{"startTime":1206.134,"endTime":1212.034,"body":"desperately or  seeing applications that"},{"startTime":1206.134,"endTime":1212.034,"body":"were being developed a hundred percent"},{"startTime":1212.034,"endTime":1218.534,"body":"by developers and how horrible they were"},{"startTime":1212.034,"endTime":1218.534,"body":"to utilize in when you were actually"},{"startTime":1218.774,"endTime":1223.964,"body":"starting to use them from a workflow"},{"startTime":1218.774,"endTime":1223.964,"body":"perspective as a provider or user of"},{"startTime":1223.964,"endTime":1225.554,"body":"the healthcare software was using it."},{"startTime":1225.664,"endTime":1229.324,"body":"Were you part of the company when"},{"startTime":1225.664,"endTime":1229.324,"body":"they decided that or, or was that"},{"startTime":1229.324,"endTime":1230.674,"body":"part of why they reached out to you?"},{"startTime":1230.674,"endTime":1234.004,"body":"Like what, what was your role when"},{"startTime":1230.674,"endTime":1234.004,"body":"they decided like, Hey, we really"},{"startTime":1234.004,"endTime":1235.644,"body":"need someone to talk to figure out"},{"startTime":1235.694,"endTime":1239.414,"body":"so when my actually breaking"},{"startTime":1235.694,"endTime":1239.414,"body":"into information technology from"},{"startTime":1239.414,"endTime":1241.604,"body":"actually bedside ICU nursing, right."},{"startTime":1241.609,"endTime":1243.074,"body":"So there was that stage."},{"startTime":1243.074,"endTime":1243.134,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1243.224,"endTime":1248.474,"body":"And that really led that was that my break"},{"startTime":1243.224,"endTime":1248.474,"body":"into healthcare information technology."},{"startTime":1248.474,"endTime":1248.684,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1248.689,"endTime":1248.774,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1248.804,"endTime":1252.654,"body":"And I spent several years there"},{"startTime":1248.804,"endTime":1252.654,"body":"specialized in a couple of things,"},{"startTime":1252.654,"endTime":1257.484,"body":"became a subject matter expert in"},{"startTime":1252.654,"endTime":1257.484,"body":"voice recognition, software loved"},{"startTime":1257.484,"endTime":1260.214,"body":"that did a lot of implementation."},{"startTime":1260.214,"endTime":1264.154,"body":"and that led me into a couple"},{"startTime":1260.214,"endTime":1264.154,"body":"of other kind of contracting"},{"startTime":1264.204,"endTime":1265.314,"body":"roles and things like that."},{"startTime":1265.314,"endTime":1267.084,"body":"And implementations into."},{"startTime":1267.879,"endTime":1268.169,"body":"EMRs."},{"startTime":1269.039,"endTime":1273.639,"body":"and it was kind of this almost"},{"startTime":1269.039,"endTime":1273.639,"body":"this domino effect of experience"},{"startTime":1273.639,"endTime":1275.259,"body":"that led to a different experience."},{"startTime":1275.759,"endTime":1281.039,"body":"and the willingness of me to say, I'm"},{"startTime":1275.759,"endTime":1281.039,"body":"willing to take this new opportunity."},{"startTime":1281.099,"endTime":1281.489,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1281.489,"endTime":1284.439,"body":"So, so there was taking a chance."},{"startTime":1284.829,"endTime":1284.889,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1284.919,"endTime":1288.129,"body":", it's scary when you're going into"},{"startTime":1284.919,"endTime":1288.129,"body":"something new, but the op, so the"},{"startTime":1288.129,"endTime":1291.579,"body":"opportunities would come up or"},{"startTime":1288.129,"endTime":1291.579,"body":"I would seek for an opportunity"},{"startTime":1291.584,"endTime":1295.479,"body":"and be willing to take the chance"},{"startTime":1291.584,"endTime":1295.479,"body":"to take that new opportunity."},{"startTime":1295.479,"endTime":1300.219,"body":"So that's number one, number two,"},{"startTime":1295.479,"endTime":1300.219,"body":"speaking specifically about product"},{"startTime":1300.469,"endTime":1306.559,"body":"that one had to do with the me searching"},{"startTime":1300.469,"endTime":1306.559,"body":"being out there and available on"},{"startTime":1306.559,"endTime":1309.984,"body":"LinkedIn and saying Hey, looking for"},{"startTime":1306.559,"endTime":1309.984,"body":"my next opportunity, my contract's"},{"startTime":1309.984,"endTime":1311.634,"body":"getting ready to come up to an end."},{"startTime":1311.674,"endTime":1312.874,"body":"I'd worked two years."},{"startTime":1313.234,"endTime":1313.984,"body":"Loved it."},{"startTime":1314.464,"endTime":1320.824,"body":"And I, I had a company that said we"},{"startTime":1314.464,"endTime":1320.824,"body":"really want someone who can empathize"},{"startTime":1320.824,"endTime":1325.714,"body":"and speak to our developers and"},{"startTime":1320.824,"endTime":1325.714,"body":"our other product owners who are"},{"startTime":1325.774,"endTime":1327.604,"body":"coming from the technical space."},{"startTime":1327.724,"endTime":1329.164,"body":"We are coming from the dev space."},{"startTime":1329.214,"endTime":1332.149,"body":"Who can round out that product team."},{"startTime":1332.689,"endTime":1333.079,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1333.289,"endTime":1338.439,"body":"So, so like I said, some some diligence"},{"startTime":1333.289,"endTime":1338.439,"body":"on my part and really looking and"},{"startTime":1338.439,"endTime":1343.809,"body":"exploring things outside of maybe my"},{"startTime":1338.439,"endTime":1343.809,"body":"comfort zone willingness to take a"},{"startTime":1343.999,"endTime":1347.509,"body":"chance and a little bit of luck there,"},{"startTime":1343.999,"endTime":1347.509,"body":"just finding that opportunity to say,"},{"startTime":1347.509,"endTime":1350.179,"body":"you know what, not only am I willing"},{"startTime":1347.509,"endTime":1350.179,"body":"to take a chance, but somebody else"},{"startTime":1350.179,"endTime":1351.889,"body":"is willing to take a chance on me."},{"startTime":1352.459,"endTime":1354.079,"body":"That was my break into product."},{"startTime":1354.079,"endTime":1354.559,"body":"Really."},{"startTime":1354.659,"endTime":1357.299,"body":"Did you change companies"},{"startTime":1354.659,"endTime":1357.299,"body":"to make that jump?"},{"startTime":1357.449,"endTime":1357.929,"body":"Yes, I did."},{"startTime":1357.929,"endTime":1358.229,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1358.229,"endTime":1363.809,"body":"So I had, I had a two year long, long"},{"startTime":1358.229,"endTime":1363.809,"body":"term contract, which was implementing"},{"startTime":1363.814,"endTime":1367.494,"body":"that voice recognition software"},{"startTime":1363.814,"endTime":1367.494,"body":"across the United States and Canada."},{"startTime":1367.984,"endTime":1372.214,"body":"so that was successful coming to"},{"startTime":1367.984,"endTime":1372.214,"body":"an end, ending that on a really"},{"startTime":1372.214,"endTime":1376.184,"body":"high note and was searching at"},{"startTime":1372.214,"endTime":1376.184,"body":"this point for my next endeavor."},{"startTime":1376.634,"endTime":1381.164,"body":"And to be very honest, there was some,"},{"startTime":1376.634,"endTime":1381.164,"body":"a headhunter that, that, I mean, I"},{"startTime":1381.164,"endTime":1384.404,"body":"was out there on LinkedIn and, and"},{"startTime":1381.164,"endTime":1384.404,"body":"definitely putting my name out there."},{"startTime":1384.654,"endTime":1390.239,"body":", but I guess I had the right key words"},{"startTime":1384.654,"endTime":1390.239,"body":"and was, you know What they saw and"},{"startTime":1390.239,"endTime":1394.759,"body":"what I was seeking ended up meeting"},{"startTime":1390.239,"endTime":1394.759,"body":"what they thought were their needs."},{"startTime":1394.759,"endTime":1396.799,"body":"And I ended up in the"},{"startTime":1394.759,"endTime":1396.799,"body":"final kind of running."},{"startTime":1396.799,"endTime":1400.459,"body":"I flew out, did the interview when you"},{"startTime":1396.799,"endTime":1400.459,"body":"were still did those kind of things"},{"startTime":1401.449,"endTime":1405.909,"body":"and and I think what was very honest"},{"startTime":1401.449,"endTime":1405.909,"body":"in that interview and saying, this"},{"startTime":1405.909,"endTime":1407.349,"body":"is not something I'm familiar with."},{"startTime":1407.349,"endTime":1410.559,"body":"Agile is something I'm, I'm"},{"startTime":1407.349,"endTime":1410.559,"body":"actually quite unfamiliar with."},{"startTime":1410.559,"endTime":1415.929,"body":"Other than some terminology I have"},{"startTime":1410.559,"endTime":1415.929,"body":"in, I I've worked with helping"},{"startTime":1416.019,"endTime":1419.499,"body":"this voice  recognition company and"},{"startTime":1416.019,"endTime":1419.499,"body":"developers at the other EMR company"},{"startTime":1419.499,"endTime":1422.729,"body":"I was working with to get together"},{"startTime":1419.499,"endTime":1422.729,"body":"so they could do some integration."},{"startTime":1422.729,"endTime":1426.749,"body":"So by proxy, I've learned some"},{"startTime":1422.729,"endTime":1426.749,"body":"things I've been in a standup"},{"startTime":1426.749,"endTime":1428.519,"body":"here and there, but that's it."},{"startTime":1429.089,"endTime":1434.344,"body":"And but what I can bring to you"},{"startTime":1429.089,"endTime":1434.344,"body":"is this knowledge of what needs to"},{"startTime":1434.349,"endTime":1436.204,"body":"happen from an end user perspective."},{"startTime":1436.354,"endTime":1436.444,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1436.474,"endTime":1439.699,"body":"And ultimately, they said, this"},{"startTime":1436.474,"endTime":1439.699,"body":"is that, that's what we need here."},{"startTime":1439.729,"endTime":1440.389,"body":"We've got."},{"startTime":1441.034,"endTime":1442.144,"body":"The dev experience."},{"startTime":1442.144,"endTime":1446.134,"body":"We've got the, the other people coming"},{"startTime":1442.144,"endTime":1446.134,"body":"from the, and, and I was that, that"},{"startTime":1446.134,"endTime":1447.904,"body":"person that was able to round that out."},{"startTime":1448.401,"endTime":1448.941,"body":"Interesting."},{"startTime":1449.151,"endTime":1454.361,"body":"So coming into a technology company from"},{"startTime":1449.151,"endTime":1454.361,"body":"that perspective, and working with other"},{"startTime":1454.361,"endTime":1459.181,"body":"product folks that came from the other"},{"startTime":1454.361,"endTime":1459.181,"body":"side what were some of the challenges,"},{"startTime":1459.181,"endTime":1461.766,"body":"in working together with those folks?"},{"startTime":1461.821,"endTime":1465.991,"body":"So I would say that initially I felt"},{"startTime":1461.821,"endTime":1465.991,"body":"very much like a fish out of water."},{"startTime":1465.991,"endTime":1471.571,"body":"I mean, a lot of terminology and"},{"startTime":1465.991,"endTime":1471.571,"body":"nomenclature things that I wasn't"},{"startTime":1471.571,"endTime":1473.221,"body":"familiar with or comfortable with."},{"startTime":1473.681,"endTime":1475.871,"body":"that said I worked with a fantastic."},{"startTime":1476.231,"endTime":1478.391,"body":"Team that I was in."},{"startTime":1478.391,"endTime":1481.541,"body":"And I said, as I said in my"},{"startTime":1478.391,"endTime":1481.541,"body":"interview, I was very transparent"},{"startTime":1481.541,"endTime":1482.981,"body":"about where I was coming from."},{"startTime":1483.251,"endTime":1487.751,"body":"Mm-hmm  willing to learn and absolutely"},{"startTime":1483.251,"endTime":1487.751,"body":"ready to jump in and do everything"},{"startTime":1487.756,"endTime":1491.291,"body":"I could to make this ha you know,"},{"startTime":1487.756,"endTime":1491.291,"body":"to learn and develop my skills is"},{"startTime":1491.291,"endTime":1492.881,"body":"something I was very interested in."},{"startTime":1492.931,"endTime":1497.311,"body":"So the fact that at had a team that"},{"startTime":1492.931,"endTime":1497.311,"body":"was aware right, also my fellow"},{"startTime":1497.311,"endTime":1500.791,"body":"product team, as well as the dev"},{"startTime":1497.311,"endTime":1500.791,"body":"team that I was working with."},{"startTime":1500.791,"endTime":1506.611,"body":"And co-located with at that time, very"},{"startTime":1500.791,"endTime":1506.611,"body":"transparent with them and I had a dev"},{"startTime":1506.611,"endTime":1508.671,"body":"team that was super supportive of me."},{"startTime":1509.176,"endTime":1513.876,"body":"so it wasn't a, it wasn't so there"},{"startTime":1509.176,"endTime":1513.876,"body":"wasn't this hu line in the sand,"},{"startTime":1513.876,"endTime":1517.986,"body":"you're the product owner, you'll be"},{"startTime":1513.876,"endTime":1517.986,"body":"the only one writing any story ever,"},{"startTime":1518.106,"endTime":1520.476,"body":"all acceptance criteria will be on you."},{"startTime":1520.576,"endTime":1522.961,"body":"So I had a lot of support."},{"startTime":1523.011,"endTime":1527.031,"body":", but I also was highly engaged"},{"startTime":1523.011,"endTime":1527.031,"body":"with the end users and was able to"},{"startTime":1527.741,"endTime":1530.691,"body":"translate that not only for my team,"},{"startTime":1527.741,"endTime":1530.691,"body":"but for the other product teams."},{"startTime":1530.691,"endTime":1535.731,"body":"So from a, from a long term perspective"},{"startTime":1530.691,"endTime":1535.731,"body":"and looking at that roadmap and high and"},{"startTime":1535.731,"endTime":1540.951,"body":"prioritizing that over the long term,"},{"startTime":1535.731,"endTime":1540.951,"body":"my input was really valuable there."},{"startTime":1540.951,"endTime":1544.641,"body":"So where my shortcomings were"},{"startTime":1540.951,"endTime":1544.641,"body":"initially, I was able to give"},{"startTime":1544.641,"endTime":1546.091,"body":"a lot of value in other places."},{"startTime":1546.561,"endTime":1550.541,"body":"That's interesting because with"},{"startTime":1546.561,"endTime":1550.541,"body":"my current team, I told them."},{"startTime":1551.041,"endTime":1555.631,"body":"where I would like them to get eventually"},{"startTime":1551.041,"endTime":1555.631,"body":"is to a point where I connect them to the"},{"startTime":1555.631,"endTime":1559.051,"body":"business and I bring the business need,"},{"startTime":1555.631,"endTime":1559.051,"body":"and I don't really write any stories"},{"startTime":1559.171,"endTime":1560.941,"body":"I'm bringing the, what the business needs."},{"startTime":1560.941,"endTime":1563.131,"body":"I'm bringing the business"},{"startTime":1560.941,"endTime":1563.131,"body":"problems that need to be solved."},{"startTime":1563.251,"endTime":1568.291,"body":"And then the team is figuring out"},{"startTime":1563.251,"endTime":1568.291,"body":"how to extrapolate those and break"},{"startTime":1568.291,"endTime":1571.111,"body":"them down and size them correctly."},{"startTime":1571.116,"endTime":1573.141,"body":"And figur, acceptance criteria"},{"startTime":1571.116,"endTime":1573.141,"body":"and all that kind stuff."},{"startTime":1573.141,"endTime":1578.486,"body":"I've told my team many times I eventually"},{"startTime":1573.141,"endTime":1578.486,"body":"look to transition myself out of this"},{"startTime":1578.486,"endTime":1584.247,"body":"role of, oh, Brian does all of the, uh"},{"startTime":1578.486,"endTime":1584.247,"body":"he'll, he'll take a first pass at the"},{"startTime":1584.252,"endTime":1587.996,"body":"acceptance criteria and we'll kind of"},{"startTime":1584.252,"endTime":1587.996,"body":"beat it up and we'll change it but like,"},{"startTime":1588.266,"endTime":1590.246,"body":"I was like, I wanna bring you nothing."},{"startTime":1590.306,"endTime":1594.046,"body":"I wanna bring you, I wanna bring you,"},{"startTime":1590.306,"endTime":1594.046,"body":"I need this,  and then they need to get"},{"startTime":1594.046,"endTime":1599.586,"body":"good interviewing me and forcing me to"},{"startTime":1594.046,"endTime":1599.586,"body":"get better at interviewing other people."},{"startTime":1599.766,"endTime":1600.036,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1600.036,"endTime":1605.766,"body":"Cause like the, the ideal situation"},{"startTime":1600.036,"endTime":1605.766,"body":"is I bring the other people directly"},{"startTime":1605.766,"endTime":1610.086,"body":"to the team in one session mm-hmm"},{"startTime":1605.766,"endTime":1610.086,"body":"and we all interview them together."},{"startTime":1610.746,"endTime":1615.116,"body":"In a future state , I will"},{"startTime":1610.746,"endTime":1615.116,"body":"hopefully distribute all the skills"},{"startTime":1615.116,"endTime":1617.456,"body":"that I have to the team members."},{"startTime":1617.816,"endTime":1623.096,"body":"And then I'll just bring the user to the"},{"startTime":1617.816,"endTime":1623.096,"body":"refinements and we'll all talk together."},{"startTime":1623.596,"endTime":1627.626,"body":"And there's a bunch of ways that you"},{"startTime":1623.596,"endTime":1627.626,"body":"elicit requirements that's they used to"},{"startTime":1627.626,"endTime":1629.276,"body":"call it when you're all business analyst."},{"startTime":1629.576,"endTime":1629.786,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1629.786,"endTime":1632.776,"body":"elicit requirements , and we'll"},{"startTime":1629.786,"endTime":1632.776,"body":"figure out what the user wants"},{"startTime":1632.836,"endTime":1637.156,"body":","},{"startTime":1632.836,"endTime":1637.156,"body":"but  again, my background is coming"},{"startTime":1637.161,"endTime":1643.966,"body":"figuring out the domain expertise that"},{"startTime":1637.161,"endTime":1643.966,"body":"I need to build the proper software."},{"startTime":1643.966,"endTime":1645.076,"body":"Who are the users?"},{"startTime":1645.436,"endTime":1647.206,"body":"What questions do I need to ask?"},{"startTime":1647.326,"endTime":1651.686,"body":"How do I quickly come online to"},{"startTime":1647.326,"endTime":1651.686,"body":"make the most impact in their world?"},{"startTime":1651.926,"endTime":1653.481,"body":"Cause I know I live in the software."},{"startTime":1653.701,"endTime":1658.946,"body":"I will talk to customers, but"},{"startTime":1653.701,"endTime":1658.946,"body":"only so far as I can get what I."},{"startTime":1659.741,"endTime":1662.531,"body":"To continue building the"},{"startTime":1659.741,"endTime":1662.531,"body":"best product for them."},{"startTime":1662.621,"endTime":1666.161,"body":"And then I'll visit back with"},{"startTime":1662.621,"endTime":1666.161,"body":"them once we built something"},{"startTime":1666.161,"endTime":1667.991,"body":"to get their feedback on it."},{"startTime":1668.581,"endTime":1671.161,"body":"I wanna be the, not really the"},{"startTime":1668.581,"endTime":1671.161,"body":"go-between cuz that's not, I'm"},{"startTime":1671.166,"endTime":1672.481,"body":"not trying to cut the team off."},{"startTime":1672.931,"endTime":1675.061,"body":"What I'm trying to say is I don't"},{"startTime":1672.931,"endTime":1675.061,"body":"know what I'm doing in my life."},{"startTime":1675.061,"endTime":1675.841,"body":"That's what I'm trying to say."},{"startTime":1675.841,"endTime":1681.121,"body":"You're just trying to catalyze this whole"},{"startTime":1675.841,"endTime":1681.121,"body":"situation with your team and the clients."},{"startTime":1681.451,"endTime":1684.751,"body":"And it can be challenging if"},{"startTime":1681.451,"endTime":1684.751,"body":"you don't have a product that is"},{"startTime":1684.751,"endTime":1687.691,"body":"made for just one type of user."},{"startTime":1687.791,"endTime":1690.401,"body":"Then it can be challenging"},{"startTime":1687.791,"endTime":1690.401,"body":"because persona the team persona."},{"startTime":1690.401,"endTime":1690.641,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1690.641,"endTime":1691.541,"body":"The personas right started."},{"startTime":1691.541,"endTime":1693.221,"body":"So the team is with different ones."},{"startTime":1693.461,"endTime":1694.061,"body":"I started hammer."},{"startTime":1694.826,"endTime":1697.986,"body":"The personas, the persona with my"},{"startTime":1694.826,"endTime":1697.986,"body":"team, because again, not to not to"},{"startTime":1697.986,"endTime":1700.686,"body":"go all Mike Miller on everything,"},{"startTime":1697.986,"endTime":1700.686,"body":"on everything all the time."},{"startTime":1700.686,"endTime":1705.421,"body":"But we have one user in mind for"},{"startTime":1700.686,"endTime":1705.421,"body":"our one feature we're building."},{"startTime":1705.781,"endTime":1707.521,"body":"And one thing comes out of that."},{"startTime":1707.571,"endTime":1710.841,"body":"You could say, oh, well it's one"},{"startTime":1707.571,"endTime":1710.841,"body":"user and they're doing one action,"},{"startTime":1710.841,"endTime":1712.881,"body":"but they have like, they could"},{"startTime":1710.841,"endTime":1712.881,"body":"take it three different ways."},{"startTime":1712.881,"endTime":1713.811,"body":"I was like, cool."},{"startTime":1714.051,"endTime":1716.301,"body":"Then we'll build three different stories."},{"startTime":1716.331,"endTime":1718.851,"body":"Mm-hmm  to represent the three"},{"startTime":1716.331,"endTime":1718.851,"body":"different ways they could extrapolate"},{"startTime":1718.851,"endTime":1719.931,"body":"what this feature is doing."},{"startTime":1720.431,"endTime":1722.951,"body":"We are building things for one user."},{"startTime":1723.191,"endTime":1727.001,"body":"And the idea is if I'm building"},{"startTime":1723.191,"endTime":1727.001,"body":"things for one user, I want to"},{"startTime":1727.001,"endTime":1728.531,"body":"be able to profile that user."},{"startTime":1728.681,"endTime":1734.516,"body":"So when I go to invite people to my sprint"},{"startTime":1728.681,"endTime":1734.516,"body":"reviews, The one user is tied directly"},{"startTime":1734.516,"endTime":1736.406,"body":"to the one person at the business level."},{"startTime":1736.406,"endTime":1743.456,"body":"I can say, Hey this feature is for O who"},{"startTime":1736.406,"endTime":1743.456,"body":"is a advocate representative or whatever."},{"startTime":1743.726,"endTime":1748.106,"body":"And I know that when we're demoing"},{"startTime":1743.726,"endTime":1748.106,"body":"a feature for customer advocate, we"},{"startTime":1748.106,"endTime":1752.356,"body":"know that O is our guy to invite to"},{"startTime":1748.106,"endTime":1752.356,"body":"these sessions and we can invite him"},{"startTime":1752.356,"endTime":1753.346,"body":"when we're doing a sprint reviews."},{"startTime":1753.346,"endTime":1757.246,"body":"Hey, O um, we've developed this"},{"startTime":1753.346,"endTime":1757.246,"body":"feature for our customer advocates."},{"startTime":1757.396,"endTime":1758.686,"body":"We think this will help you."},{"startTime":1758.866,"endTime":1760.066,"body":"Why don't you give us some feedback?"},{"startTime":1760.066,"endTime":1763.356,"body":"We're gonna demo some features for"},{"startTime":1760.066,"endTime":1763.356,"body":"you, just 20, 30 minutes on a call."},{"startTime":1763.456,"endTime":1769.126,"body":"And that's it like it helps me because"},{"startTime":1763.456,"endTime":1769.126,"body":"we've done this persona exercise."},{"startTime":1769.306,"endTime":1771.916,"body":"We know who we're"},{"startTime":1769.306,"endTime":1771.916,"body":"developing each feature for."},{"startTime":1772.426,"endTime":1779.266,"body":"We can have we can take a little more care"},{"startTime":1772.426,"endTime":1779.266,"body":"about who to invite to our sprint reviews."},{"startTime":1779.326,"endTime":1782.816,"body":"Mm-hmm  and we use JIRA, well,"},{"startTime":1779.326,"endTime":1782.816,"body":"I haven't done that in a while."},{"startTime":1783.316,"endTime":1787.176,"body":", and, you can add a custom field"},{"startTime":1783.316,"endTime":1787.176,"body":"to jar that lets you select from"},{"startTime":1787.181,"endTime":1791.046,"body":"a dropdown this story who is the"},{"startTime":1787.181,"endTime":1791.046,"body":"persona associated with the story?"},{"startTime":1791.196,"endTime":1793.266,"body":"And you can just select from the"},{"startTime":1791.196,"endTime":1793.266,"body":"dropdown and pick the persona."},{"startTime":1793.266,"endTime":1796.456,"body":"So instead of writing  as"},{"startTime":1793.266,"endTime":1796.456,"body":"a customer advocate."},{"startTime":1796.516,"endTime":1800.976,"body":"I want this functionality or whatever"},{"startTime":1796.516,"endTime":1800.976,"body":"like I can skip that line and I can code"},{"startTime":1800.976,"endTime":1804.906,"body":"it as a dropdown to say like, oh, my"},{"startTime":1800.976,"endTime":1804.906,"body":"little dropdown and my little dropdown"},{"startTime":1804.906,"endTime":1808.116,"body":"says, oh, colon customer advocate"},{"startTime":1808.536,"endTime":1811.266,"body":"As a customer advocate, I want"},{"startTime":1808.536,"endTime":1811.266,"body":"this feature and then I can"},{"startTime":1811.266,"endTime":1812.226,"body":"kind of skip to the feature."},{"startTime":1812.736,"endTime":1818.136,"body":"I always approach your ALM tool from"},{"startTime":1812.736,"endTime":1818.136,"body":"the perspective of like, how can it"},{"startTime":1818.136,"endTime":1824.046,"body":"just speed my processes along and make"},{"startTime":1818.136,"endTime":1824.046,"body":"things easier as opposed to normal JIRA?"},{"startTime":1824.886,"endTime":1828.156,"body":"Which just is yes."},{"startTime":1828.456,"endTime":1828.606,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1828.606,"endTime":1829.596,"body":"I, I don't know of anybody."},{"startTime":1829.596,"endTime":1829.896,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1829.946,"endTime":1832.836,"body":"I wanted to just, just a quick"},{"startTime":1829.946,"endTime":1832.836,"body":"add on to what you said and."},{"startTime":1833.556,"endTime":1837.306,"body":"You know, it is really, it's funny cuz you"},{"startTime":1833.556,"endTime":1837.306,"body":"said the who and the, what is literally"},{"startTime":1837.306,"endTime":1839.046,"body":"had just, just written that down."},{"startTime":1839.046,"endTime":1839.346,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1839.346,"endTime":1845.816,"body":"So so my job from the product management"},{"startTime":1839.346,"endTime":1845.816,"body":"perspective is the who and the what?"},{"startTime":1845.966,"endTime":1846.236,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1846.236,"endTime":1851.906,"body":"And coming from the healthcare domain,"},{"startTime":1846.236,"endTime":1851.906,"body":"that's really easy for me cuz I know"},{"startTime":1851.906,"endTime":1855.686,"body":"the who, and if I talk to the, who I can"},{"startTime":1851.906,"endTime":1855.686,"body":"figure out the what, sometimes I have a"},{"startTime":1855.686,"endTime":1857.746,"body":"general idea of the what anyway,   right."},{"startTime":1857.896,"endTime":1862.216,"body":"What I actually don't have any"},{"startTime":1857.896,"endTime":1862.216,"body":"idea about is the, how so I don't"},{"startTime":1862.216,"endTime":1866.306,"body":"ever have to accidentally  I don't"},{"startTime":1862.216,"endTime":1866.306,"body":"roll over and start solving issues"},{"startTime":1866.311,"endTime":1867.356,"body":"cuz I just don't know how to."},{"startTime":1867.356,"endTime":1867.716,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1868.106,"endTime":1869.696,"body":"But the other thing I"},{"startTime":1868.106,"endTime":1869.696,"body":"wanted to mention is."},{"startTime":1870.611,"endTime":1874.391,"body":"You mentioned on multiple, multiple times,"},{"startTime":1870.611,"endTime":1874.391,"body":"there are different ways of involving"},{"startTime":1874.391,"endTime":1876.671,"body":"your team and, and how to do that."},{"startTime":1877.181,"endTime":1880.061,"body":"So one of the things that I"},{"startTime":1877.181,"endTime":1880.061,"body":"was able to do, and I didn't"},{"startTime":1880.066,"endTime":1882.451,"body":"realize how foreign it was."},{"startTime":1883.061,"endTime":1886.751,"body":"So this is a first team I had ever worked"},{"startTime":1883.061,"endTime":1886.751,"body":"with as this company I was talking to"},{"startTime":1886.751,"endTime":1891.316,"body":"you about earlier first development"},{"startTime":1886.751,"endTime":1891.316,"body":"team I say, co-located my work family."},{"startTime":1891.616,"endTime":1894.596,"body":"And so they're developing"},{"startTime":1891.616,"endTime":1894.596,"body":"and I want feedback."},{"startTime":1895.006,"endTime":1901.356,"body":"So I invited them to we were doing some"},{"startTime":1895.006,"endTime":1901.356,"body":"kind of an AB exercise or something"},{"startTime":1901.356,"endTime":1905.106,"body":"mid sprint to try to get an idea of"},{"startTime":1901.356,"endTime":1905.106,"body":"what their thoughts were invited."},{"startTime":1905.111,"endTime":1906.576,"body":"My entire dev team."},{"startTime":1906.876,"endTime":1911.226,"body":"I facilitated the meeting, introduced,"},{"startTime":1906.876,"endTime":1911.226,"body":"welcomed, ask questions, right."},{"startTime":1911.226,"endTime":1912.216,"body":"As we went through."},{"startTime":1912.216,"endTime":1912.276,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1912.966,"endTime":1920.046,"body":"They had never, ever, ever been a part"},{"startTime":1912.966,"endTime":1920.046,"body":"of that type of a session where they had."},{"startTime":1920.721,"endTime":1926.091,"body":"First hand experience with the persona"},{"startTime":1920.721,"endTime":1926.091,"body":"or the end user that was using the"},{"startTime":1926.091,"endTime":1928.071,"body":"application that they were working with."},{"startTime":1928.311,"endTime":1928.791,"body":"Ever."},{"startTime":1928.881,"endTime":1929.001,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1929.001,"endTime":1932.451,"body":"And so they saw them working through"},{"startTime":1929.001,"endTime":1932.451,"body":"and maybe having a trouble finding"},{"startTime":1932.456,"endTime":1935.991,"body":"something or going like this is confusing"},{"startTime":1932.456,"endTime":1935.991,"body":"and they might be able to ask a simple"},{"startTime":1935.991,"endTime":1937.571,"body":"question going I didn't think of that."},{"startTime":1937.571,"endTime":1938.651,"body":"That makes perfect sense."},{"startTime":1938.651,"endTime":1938.711,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1938.741,"endTime":1942.911,"body":"It was so enlightening and it was"},{"startTime":1938.741,"endTime":1942.911,"body":"something that we ended up now working"},{"startTime":1943.261,"endTime":1947.121,"body":"into like to your point, as often"},{"startTime":1943.261,"endTime":1947.121,"body":"as we could, when it made sense to"},{"startTime":1947.121,"endTime":1951.171,"body":"make sure they were involved directly"},{"startTime":1947.121,"endTime":1951.171,"body":"with that type of an interaction."},{"startTime":1951.591,"endTime":1953.031,"body":"I would think that's pretty typical."},{"startTime":1953.241,"endTime":1957.021,"body":"Regardless of the way you find yourself"},{"startTime":1953.241,"endTime":1957.021,"body":"in product management whether you find"},{"startTime":1957.021,"endTime":1961.191,"body":"yourself coming from demand expertise or"},{"startTime":1957.021,"endTime":1961.191,"body":"coming with development team expertise,"},{"startTime":1961.581,"endTime":1966.781,"body":"confronting your developers with,"},{"startTime":1961.581,"endTime":1966.781,"body":"you're gonna actively shadow a user."},{"startTime":1967.576,"endTime":1969.641,"body":"and I think of this"},{"startTime":1967.576,"endTime":1969.641,"body":"when I do journey maps."},{"startTime":1969.731,"endTime":1970.001,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1970.061,"endTime":1971.321,"body":"I think of this when I do a journey map."},{"startTime":1971.861,"endTime":1975.691,"body":"and then the, experience to them"},{"startTime":1971.861,"endTime":1975.691,"body":"would be, especially for, for"},{"startTime":1975.871,"endTime":1978.691,"body":"people in organizations where"},{"startTime":1975.871,"endTime":1978.691,"body":"they've never been exposed to that."},{"startTime":1979.561,"endTime":1983.591,"body":"Oh, it's probably really jarring for"},{"startTime":1979.561,"endTime":1983.591,"body":"them in their first experience to"},{"startTime":1983.591,"endTime":1986.471,"body":"be like, oh, I can't believe these"},{"startTime":1983.591,"endTime":1986.471,"body":"people are having such a hard time."},{"startTime":1986.531,"endTime":1992.141,"body":"And this and this application that I work"},{"startTime":1986.531,"endTime":1992.141,"body":"in all the time  but that's good because"},{"startTime":1992.441,"endTime":1998.231,"body":"they, they should gain that empathy for"},{"startTime":1992.441,"endTime":1998.231,"body":"the people that are using the software."},{"startTime":1998.441,"endTime":2001.861,"body":"They should gain that empathy  because"},{"startTime":1998.441,"endTime":2001.861,"body":"they're not, they're not exposed to that."},{"startTime":2001.861,"endTime":2004.726,"body":"They're not exposed to anything in"},{"startTime":2001.861,"endTime":2004.726,"body":"the organization that helps them build"},{"startTime":2004.786,"endTime":2007.096,"body":"empathy with the user of the software."},{"startTime":2007.276,"endTime":2007.726,"body":"Agreed."},{"startTime":2008.026,"endTime":2009.376,"body":"So on that front, right."},{"startTime":2009.376,"endTime":2013.726,"body":"So we talked about on different"},{"startTime":2009.376,"endTime":2013.726,"body":"podcasts, checkbox, agile."},{"startTime":2013.876,"endTime":2014.086,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2014.566,"endTime":2016.426,"body":"This is another example of that, where."},{"startTime":2017.086,"endTime":2021.106,"body":"Teams would say, we're gonna"},{"startTime":2017.086,"endTime":2021.106,"body":"consider personas in our ALM tool."},{"startTime":2021.106,"endTime":2023.746,"body":"Look, there's a little"},{"startTime":2021.106,"endTime":2023.746,"body":"caricature of a person, right."},{"startTime":2023.796,"endTime":2025.706,"body":", that Fred or Mary or whoever."},{"startTime":2026.186,"endTime":2027.511,"body":"And, and that's the accountant."},{"startTime":2027.541,"endTime":2031.771,"body":"So we're gonna say as Fred, they do"},{"startTime":2027.541,"endTime":2031.771,"body":"that, but the developers have never"},{"startTime":2031.776,"endTime":2036.421,"body":"spoken with Fred mm-hmm , that's where"},{"startTime":2031.776,"endTime":2036.421,"body":"I feel like we're just checking the box."},{"startTime":2036.601,"endTime":2039.061,"body":"You may as well not bother cuz"},{"startTime":2036.601,"endTime":2039.061,"body":"you're not getting the benefit."},{"startTime":2039.301,"endTime":2039.361,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2039.481,"endTime":2043.621,"body":"Very few organizations go to that level"},{"startTime":2039.481,"endTime":2043.621,"body":"where they would say let's get together in"},{"startTime":2043.621,"endTime":2049.231,"body":"a room and just talk, just talk about what"},{"startTime":2043.621,"endTime":2049.231,"body":"the real issues are and not go down this"},{"startTime":2049.236,"endTime":2051.571,"body":"path of, well, these are requirements."},{"startTime":2051.571,"endTime":2052.381,"body":"We're gonna write 'em down."},{"startTime":2052.381,"endTime":2056.161,"body":"That's the buff that we, we"},{"startTime":2052.381,"endTime":2056.161,"body":"used to do in the old days, big"},{"startTime":2056.161,"endTime":2057.961,"body":"requirements front mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":2057.961,"endTime":2059.581,"body":"And then get them all signed off."},{"startTime":2059.581,"endTime":2063.031,"body":"And every time somebody says, it's not"},{"startTime":2059.581,"endTime":2063.031,"body":"quite what we want, go change request."},{"startTime":2063.036,"endTime":2063.391,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2063.391,"endTime":2065.311,"body":"Mm-hmm  just makes my blood boil."},{"startTime":2065.601,"endTime":2069.561,"body":"We need to do a better job"},{"startTime":2065.601,"endTime":2069.561,"body":"collectively to make sure we involve."},{"startTime":2070.371,"endTime":2072.801,"body":"the customer with the development team."},{"startTime":2072.921,"endTime":2073.041,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2073.041,"endTime":2076.611,"body":"You know, people say this word"},{"startTime":2073.041,"endTime":2076.611,"body":"customer centric really put"},{"startTime":2076.611,"endTime":2078.171,"body":"the customer in the center."},{"startTime":2078.171,"endTime":2078.261,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2078.621,"endTime":2078.981,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2078.981,"endTime":2081.621,"body":"Surround yourself around"},{"startTime":2078.981,"endTime":2081.621,"body":"the customer and yeah."},{"startTime":2081.861,"endTime":2083.421,"body":"We're not doing a good job of that, sadly."},{"startTime":2083.941,"endTime":2084.511,"body":"To your point."},{"startTime":2084.511,"endTime":2088.441,"body":"That empathy is exactly what"},{"startTime":2084.511,"endTime":2088.441,"body":"all the sudden I, and, and my"},{"startTime":2088.441,"endTime":2091.141,"body":"developers, after the meeting,"},{"startTime":2088.441,"endTime":2091.141,"body":"the initial meeting were going."},{"startTime":2091.811,"endTime":2094.751,"body":"I had no idea that this is"},{"startTime":2091.811,"endTime":2094.751,"body":"something they would struggle with."},{"startTime":2094.751,"endTime":2097.481,"body":"It made sense to me when"},{"startTime":2094.751,"endTime":2097.481,"body":"I developed it this way."},{"startTime":2097.541,"endTime":2101.981,"body":"And so it did create that empathy and"},{"startTime":2097.541,"endTime":2101.981,"body":"they were, and this was something a"},{"startTime":2101.981,"endTime":2104.141,"body":"beating they actually looked forward to."},{"startTime":2104.221,"endTime":2107.191,"body":". And they knew they would learn so much"},{"startTime":2104.221,"endTime":2107.191,"body":"from, and it was something the other"},{"startTime":2107.191,"endTime":2111.091,"body":"product owners and developers, or excuse"},{"startTime":2107.191,"endTime":2111.091,"body":"me, managers ended up implementing."},{"startTime":2111.201,"endTime":2111.681,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":2111.681,"endTime":2115.181,"body":"I like, if I wanna argue about this"},{"startTime":2111.681,"endTime":2115.181,"body":"one cuz I like argue about things."},{"startTime":2115.361,"endTime":2119.221,"body":"If I wanna argue about this one, I would"},{"startTime":2115.361,"endTime":2119.221,"body":"say that the, the product manager coming"},{"startTime":2119.251,"endTime":2123.661,"body":"with domain expertise over the product"},{"startTime":2119.251,"endTime":2123.661,"body":"manager coming from a background of"},{"startTime":2123.751,"endTime":2129.271,"body":"development expertise and learning the"},{"startTime":2123.751,"endTime":2129.271,"body":"domain, I would think that the product"},{"startTime":2129.271,"endTime":2133.921,"body":"manager coming from the domain and"},{"startTime":2129.271,"endTime":2133.921,"body":"having to learn development expertise"},{"startTime":2133.971,"endTime":2135.081,"body":"would have an advantage here."},{"startTime":2135.081,"endTime":2137.571,"body":"I would think that they"},{"startTime":2135.081,"endTime":2137.571,"body":"would find an easier time."},{"startTime":2138.291,"endTime":2142.041,"body":"Empathizing with the users than the"},{"startTime":2138.291,"endTime":2142.041,"body":"person coming from development teams."},{"startTime":2142.281,"endTime":2142.701,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":2142.701,"endTime":2145.931,"body":"I, I I'm willing to be challenged on"},{"startTime":2142.701,"endTime":2145.931,"body":"that one cuz I also think that the"},{"startTime":2145.936,"endTime":2150.271,"body":"person coming from purely coming from"},{"startTime":2145.936,"endTime":2150.271,"body":"development teams, I would hope would"},{"startTime":2150.271,"endTime":2155.871,"body":"have a certain level of awareness that"},{"startTime":2150.271,"endTime":2155.871,"body":"they're lacking in that knowledge."},{"startTime":2155.871,"endTime":2157.651,"body":"So they would be open to empathizing."},{"startTime":2157.671,"endTime":2160.641,"body":"I come at this subject from"},{"startTime":2157.671,"endTime":2160.641,"body":"working with development teams."},{"startTime":2160.821,"endTime":2165.011,"body":"So I come at the subject saying someone"},{"startTime":2160.821,"endTime":2165.011,"body":"coming from development teams would"},{"startTime":2165.011,"endTime":2170.111,"body":"likely anchor on technical solutions"},{"startTime":2165.011,"endTime":2170.111,"body":"and go straight to solutioning."},{"startTime":2170.921,"endTime":2174.431,"body":"So maybe they're not the best"},{"startTime":2170.921,"endTime":2174.431,"body":"person to propose solutions."},{"startTime":2174.431,"endTime":2179.201,"body":"I like I have is the person coming"},{"startTime":2174.431,"endTime":2179.201,"body":"from the domain similar to that,"},{"startTime":2179.201,"endTime":2180.791,"body":"where they would anchor on domain."},{"startTime":2181.736,"endTime":2185.096,"body":"but like, oh, this is the biggest"},{"startTime":2181.736,"endTime":2185.096,"body":"problem in nursing or whatever."},{"startTime":2185.096,"endTime":2186.986,"body":"And like, maybe they're"},{"startTime":2185.096,"endTime":2186.986,"body":"ignoring other things."},{"startTime":2187.266,"endTime":2187.656,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":2187.706,"endTime":2188.426,"body":"I see both sides."},{"startTime":2188.426,"endTime":2190.166,"body":"I'm not really sure which"},{"startTime":2188.426,"endTime":2190.166,"body":"one would be better."},{"startTime":2190.466,"endTime":2193.346,"body":"I, I think one side is"},{"startTime":2190.466,"endTime":2193.346,"body":"more likely than the other."},{"startTime":2193.351,"endTime":2196.771,"body":"So if you're coming from the dev side"},{"startTime":2193.351,"endTime":2196.771,"body":"so you understand the technology, so"},{"startTime":2196.771,"endTime":2198.871,"body":"you're centered along those lines."},{"startTime":2199.091,"endTime":2203.741,"body":"And, and before you hear and really"},{"startTime":2199.091,"endTime":2203.741,"body":"understand the problem, to your point,"},{"startTime":2203.746,"endTime":2205.261,"body":"you start forming a solution solution."},{"startTime":2205.261,"endTime":2205.461,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2205.461,"endTime":2205.581,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2205.601,"endTime":2209.201,"body":"I think the other way around is"},{"startTime":2205.601,"endTime":2209.201,"body":"less likely you come from a domain,"},{"startTime":2209.531,"endTime":2211.091,"body":"you understand the pain points."},{"startTime":2211.271,"endTime":2214.691,"body":"You're not necessarily going"},{"startTime":2211.271,"endTime":2214.691,"body":"to do anything equivalent."},{"startTime":2214.691,"endTime":2215.571,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":2215.591,"endTime":2221.051,"body":"You're just simply gonna want a solution"},{"startTime":2215.591,"endTime":2221.051,"body":"that is fit for purpose for the pain."},{"startTime":2221.351,"endTime":2222.041,"body":"So I think."},{"startTime":2222.541,"endTime":2226.531,"body":"coming from that side, as you did,"},{"startTime":2222.541,"endTime":2226.531,"body":"you're not likely to say I need"},{"startTime":2226.531,"endTime":2228.181,"body":"this client server arrangement."},{"startTime":2228.181,"endTime":2228.361,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2228.361,"endTime":2230.161,"body":"Cause you don't care about the technology."},{"startTime":2230.161,"endTime":2231.491,"body":"You just want a solution."},{"startTime":2231.601,"endTime":2232.831,"body":"And the simplest solution."},{"startTime":2232.831,"endTime":2237.751,"body":"So MVP was definitely something that we"},{"startTime":2232.831,"endTime":2237.751,"body":"we want the simplest solution that can"},{"startTime":2237.751,"endTime":2242.671,"body":"give us working software, some benefit"},{"startTime":2237.751,"endTime":2242.671,"body":"to the customer as quickly as possible."},{"startTime":2242.671,"endTime":2242.941,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2242.941,"endTime":2244.801,"body":"So then, and, and iterate on that."},{"startTime":2245.241,"endTime":2248.001,"body":", but to your point, I"},{"startTime":2245.241,"endTime":2248.001,"body":"think that  there's bias."},{"startTime":2248.531,"endTime":2250.961,"body":"You're you're gonna come with"},{"startTime":2248.531,"endTime":2250.961,"body":"bias from both sides bias."},{"startTime":2250.961,"endTime":2250.962,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2250.967,"endTime":2251.041,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2251.046,"endTime":2255.941,"body":"You're gonna have so, so, so I think"},{"startTime":2251.046,"endTime":2255.941,"body":"that the most important piece to that"},{"startTime":2256.271,"endTime":2259.421,"body":"is, and you mentioned this as well"},{"startTime":2256.271,"endTime":2259.421,"body":"is just being self-aware of that."},{"startTime":2259.471,"endTime":2263.331,"body":"And being aware that you're gonna"},{"startTime":2259.471,"endTime":2263.331,"body":"be coming with bias and being"},{"startTime":2263.391,"endTime":2267.711,"body":"self-aware and open and honest with"},{"startTime":2263.391,"endTime":2267.711,"body":"yourself as much as you possibly can."},{"startTime":2267.711,"endTime":2267.951,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2267.951,"endTime":2268.011,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2268.011,"endTime":2268.611,"body":"We're all biased."},{"startTime":2268.616,"endTime":2269.271,"body":"We're all human."},{"startTime":2269.721,"endTime":2271.371,"body":"And being open and willing to learn"},{"startTime":2271.891,"endTime":2275.851,"body":"What is the difference between product"},{"startTime":2271.891,"endTime":2275.851,"body":"manager and product owner to you Stormy?"},{"startTime":2275.881,"endTime":2278.231,"body":"Like, let's, let's go down that"},{"startTime":2275.881,"endTime":2278.231,"body":"road before we run out of time."},{"startTime":2278.501,"endTime":2282.101,"body":"So I'll start with product owners"},{"startTime":2278.501,"endTime":2282.101,"body":"because that's where I started."},{"startTime":2282.281,"endTime":2283.991,"body":"That was my original title."},{"startTime":2283.991,"endTime":2287.951,"body":"So a product owner is a term"},{"startTime":2283.991,"endTime":2287.951,"body":"coined in the scrum guide."},{"startTime":2288.011,"endTime":2290.391,"body":"Mm-hmm that's where this"},{"startTime":2288.011,"endTime":2290.391,"body":"title came from, right."},{"startTime":2290.391,"endTime":2291.051,"body":"Product owner."},{"startTime":2291.581,"endTime":2294.521,"body":"And so there wasn't a product"},{"startTime":2291.581,"endTime":2294.521,"body":"manager actually, at that point,"},{"startTime":2294.521,"endTime":2296.261,"body":"the product owner was you're right."},{"startTime":2296.381,"endTime":2297.581,"body":"The product, right."},{"startTime":2297.581,"endTime":2300.341,"body":"The product owner, the product"},{"startTime":2297.581,"endTime":2300.341,"body":"manager, all of the above."},{"startTime":2300.341,"endTime":2300.881,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":2301.271,"endTime":2304.691,"body":"So safe if I'm not mistaken and,"},{"startTime":2301.271,"endTime":2304.691,"body":"and you could challenge me on this."},{"startTime":2304.691,"endTime":2307.301,"body":"I wouldn't put down a hundred bucks"},{"startTime":2304.691,"endTime":2307.301,"body":"on this, but I believe it was safe"},{"startTime":2307.306,"endTime":2311.171,"body":"that came up with the product manager"},{"startTime":2307.306,"endTime":2311.171,"body":"and ended up separating these two"},{"startTime":2311.261,"endTime":2314.201,"body":"pieces or these two rolls out."},{"startTime":2314.351,"endTime":2314.771,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2314.831,"endTime":2315.971,"body":"I have really have no idea."},{"startTime":2315.971,"endTime":2316.151,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":2316.151,"endTime":2319.571,"body":"And actually at this point, the"},{"startTime":2316.151,"endTime":2319.571,"body":"scrum guide in the 2020 scrum guide,"},{"startTime":2319.576,"endTime":2321.671,"body":"aren't, they're not rolls anymore."},{"startTime":2321.901,"endTime":2322.261,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2322.261,"endTime":2323.442,"body":"So accountability, exactly."},{"startTime":2323.442,"endTime":2323.443,"body":"Accountabilities."},{"startTime":2324.001,"endTime":2326.132,"body":"Is that what you call 'em"},{"startTime":2324.001,"endTime":2326.132,"body":"accountabilities that's so they're"},{"startTime":2326.132,"endTime":2327.512,"body":"not actually roles anymore."},{"startTime":2327.722,"endTime":2330.182,"body":"That sounds like something meant"},{"startTime":2327.722,"endTime":2330.182,"body":"to sell something to someone."},{"startTime":2330.682,"endTime":2335.122,"body":"But my point is so, so once a product"},{"startTime":2330.682,"endTime":2335.122,"body":"manager came in that was actually ended"},{"startTime":2335.122,"endTime":2339.542,"body":"up being defined and separated out . So my"},{"startTime":2335.122,"endTime":2339.542,"body":"best kind of cliff notes understanding of"},{"startTime":2339.542,"endTime":2346.262,"body":"this is the product owner would be the SME"},{"startTime":2339.542,"endTime":2346.262,"body":"for the application and or the feature or"},{"startTime":2346.267,"endTime":2348.302,"body":"whatever it is they were responsible for."},{"startTime":2348.317,"endTime":2354.107,"body":"And they would be the translator"},{"startTime":2348.317,"endTime":2354.107,"body":"between that persona or user or"},{"startTime":2354.107,"endTime":2355.967,"body":"user group and the development team."},{"startTime":2356.007,"endTime":2358.427,"body":"Mm-hmm  they would be working"},{"startTime":2356.007,"endTime":2358.427,"body":"hand in hand with the development"},{"startTime":2358.427,"endTime":2359.897,"body":"team, a development team."},{"startTime":2360.437,"endTime":2363.347,"body":", they're part of that team,"},{"startTime":2360.437,"endTime":2363.347,"body":"along with the scrum master,"},{"startTime":2363.347,"endTime":2365.027,"body":"they are the scrum team, right?"},{"startTime":2365.307,"endTime":2370.887,"body":"The product manager on the other hand"},{"startTime":2365.307,"endTime":2370.887,"body":"was more along the portfolio manager."},{"startTime":2371.127,"endTime":2374.157,"body":"So they may have multiple product owners."},{"startTime":2374.677,"endTime":2378.687,"body":"Working with them, not under them,"},{"startTime":2374.677,"endTime":2378.687,"body":"although that has been misconstrued."},{"startTime":2379.057,"endTime":2382.957,"body":"In my opinion, but initially it was"},{"startTime":2379.057,"endTime":2382.957,"body":"working with them potentially with"},{"startTime":2382.957,"endTime":2387.577,"body":"different features, but under the,"},{"startTime":2382.957,"endTime":2387.577,"body":"the same portfolio that product"},{"startTime":2387.577,"endTime":2392.077,"body":"manager would be then responsible"},{"startTime":2387.577,"endTime":2392.077,"body":"for understanding the market drivers"},{"startTime":2392.537,"endTime":2397.667,"body":"of the customer, which would be"},{"startTime":2392.537,"endTime":2397.667,"body":"driving the overall customer needs."},{"startTime":2397.817,"endTime":2400.457,"body":"Not necessarily the individual features."},{"startTime":2400.457,"endTime":2400.517,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2400.517,"endTime":2404.927,"body":"Which those priorities might change,"},{"startTime":2400.517,"endTime":2404.927,"body":"but that then would drive the."},{"startTime":2405.242,"endTime":2410.552,"body":"The long term roadmap and"},{"startTime":2405.242,"endTime":2410.552,"body":"prioritization of that."},{"startTime":2410.552,"endTime":2415.622,"body":"So I think that's the differentiation"},{"startTime":2410.552,"endTime":2415.622,"body":"I see is where the product manager"},{"startTime":2415.622,"endTime":2419.962,"body":"typically is more involved with"},{"startTime":2415.622,"endTime":2419.962,"body":"leadership, marketing sales."},{"startTime":2420.372,"endTime":2426.532,"body":"and overarching market trends where"},{"startTime":2420.372,"endTime":2426.532,"body":"the product owner, now that there's"},{"startTime":2426.532,"endTime":2432.142,"body":"a separation between the two is more"},{"startTime":2426.532,"endTime":2432.142,"body":"involved with maybe specific product"},{"startTime":2432.142,"endTime":2438.172,"body":"and, or feature and very involved with"},{"startTime":2432.142,"endTime":2438.172,"body":"the, with the team teams regarding that."},{"startTime":2438.212,"endTime":2438.502,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2438.762,"endTime":2443.637,"body":"Not to, again, reference Mike Miller twice"},{"startTime":2438.762,"endTime":2443.637,"body":"in the same podcast, but the distinction,"},{"startTime":2443.667,"endTime":2448.357,"body":"I have lines up with his distinction,"},{"startTime":2443.667,"endTime":2448.357,"body":"which is the product owner is."},{"startTime":2448.857,"endTime":2454.327,"body":"Inwardly organizationally focused in,"},{"startTime":2448.857,"endTime":2454.327,"body":"in, towards the development team, the"},{"startTime":2454.327,"endTime":2459.237,"body":"product manager is focused externally"},{"startTime":2454.327,"endTime":2459.237,"body":"from the organization externally"},{"startTime":2459.687,"endTime":2460.917,"body":"out to the customers and whatnot."},{"startTime":2460.917,"endTime":2465.107,"body":"So one person talks"},{"startTime":2460.917,"endTime":2465.107,"body":"outward about the features."},{"startTime":2465.347,"endTime":2468.797,"body":"One person talks inwardly"},{"startTime":2465.347,"endTime":2468.797,"body":"about the features."},{"startTime":2469.037,"endTime":2469.847,"body":"Does that make sense?"},{"startTime":2469.847,"endTime":2470.837,"body":"It does make sense."},{"startTime":2470.837,"endTime":2473.627,"body":"I feel like I'm missing a"},{"startTime":2470.837,"endTime":2473.627,"body":"big, I don't think overlap."},{"startTime":2473.627,"endTime":2475.787,"body":"The two of you are saying"},{"startTime":2473.627,"endTime":2475.787,"body":"anything radically different."},{"startTime":2475.787,"endTime":2477.967,"body":"I'm gonna try and use an example for this."},{"startTime":2477.967,"endTime":2482.657,"body":"So you think about products like"},{"startTime":2477.967,"endTime":2482.657,"body":"Microsoft word, Microsoft Excel,"},{"startTime":2482.657,"endTime":2484.247,"body":"Microsoft PowerPoint, right?"},{"startTime":2485.107,"endTime":2489.377,"body":"Each of these products may have a"},{"startTime":2485.107,"endTime":2489.377,"body":"product owner that's working with one"},{"startTime":2489.382,"endTime":2492.947,"body":"or more development teams to produce"},{"startTime":2489.382,"endTime":2492.947,"body":"that product, to deliver the product."},{"startTime":2493.027,"endTime":2496.867,"body":"Now all of these products, not all,"},{"startTime":2493.027,"endTime":2496.867,"body":"but a lot of these products are bundle"},{"startTime":2497.107,"endTime":2502.207,"body":"bundled under Microsoft office, where"},{"startTime":2497.107,"endTime":2502.207,"body":"you may have a product manager who."},{"startTime":2503.047,"endTime":2508.077,"body":"Accountable for P and L of Microsoft"},{"startTime":2503.047,"endTime":2508.077,"body":"office and they're trying to figure out"},{"startTime":2508.137,"endTime":2511.657,"body":"how to position that in the market with"},{"startTime":2508.137,"endTime":2511.657,"body":"the competition, et cetera, et cetera."},{"startTime":2511.957,"endTime":2514.957,"body":"So to your point, Brian, that"},{"startTime":2511.957,"endTime":2514.957,"body":"might be the outward focus."},{"startTime":2515.227,"endTime":2515.287,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2515.287,"endTime":2518.977,"body":"Rather than looking inward towards the"},{"startTime":2515.287,"endTime":2518.977,"body":"dev team, because you've got the product"},{"startTime":2518.977,"endTime":2520.447,"body":"owner handling that side of things."},{"startTime":2520.717,"endTime":2524.737,"body":"So I think that example kind of"},{"startTime":2520.717,"endTime":2524.737,"body":"illustrates what you were saying"},{"startTime":2524.737,"endTime":2526.027,"body":"and what you were saying both."},{"startTime":2526.087,"endTime":2526.477,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2526.747,"endTime":2527.737,"body":"I think that's true."},{"startTime":2527.767,"endTime":2530.312,"body":"and Mike Miller's example, I"},{"startTime":2527.767,"endTime":2530.312,"body":"have talked to Mike several"},{"startTime":2530.312,"endTime":2532.442,"body":"times about this it's similar."},{"startTime":2532.442,"endTime":2534.512,"body":"He's thinking about it"},{"startTime":2532.442,"endTime":2534.512,"body":"from a similar standpoint."},{"startTime":2534.517,"endTime":2535.322,"body":"It's not that."},{"startTime":2535.892,"endTime":2540.302,"body":"A product manager has no idea about"},{"startTime":2535.892,"endTime":2540.302,"body":"how things are being developed, but"},{"startTime":2540.302,"endTime":2543.902,"body":"it's not that a product owner has"},{"startTime":2540.302,"endTime":2543.902,"body":"no idea about where the where this"},{"startTime":2543.907,"endTime":2545.552,"body":"overall product is in the market."},{"startTime":2545.792,"endTime":2548.762,"body":"It's just that their"},{"startTime":2545.792,"endTime":2548.762,"body":"accountability are different."},{"startTime":2548.792,"endTime":2549.452,"body":"Mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":2549.572,"endTime":2549.752,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2549.757,"endTime":2549.932,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2549.932,"endTime":2550.622,"body":"That's how I feel."},{"startTime":2550.627,"endTime":2552.602,"body":"I would say the granularity"},{"startTime":2550.627,"endTime":2552.602,"body":"a bit different."},{"startTime":2552.602,"endTime":2556.832,"body":"So where I'm thinking about this is so"},{"startTime":2552.602,"endTime":2556.832,"body":"from a product owner perspective that"},{"startTime":2556.832,"endTime":2560.852,"body":"doesn't exclude you from working out"},{"startTime":2556.832,"endTime":2560.852,"body":"externally outside of the company, right?"},{"startTime":2560.852,"endTime":2565.037,"body":"As a matter of fact, I would be expecting"},{"startTime":2560.852,"endTime":2565.037,"body":"that a product owner would be working"},{"startTime":2565.037,"endTime":2569.777,"body":"with personas and end users relevant to"},{"startTime":2565.037,"endTime":2569.777,"body":"the application that they are features so"},{"startTime":2569.777,"endTime":2571.127,"body":"on and so forth that they're working on."},{"startTime":2571.487,"endTime":2571.577,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2571.577,"endTime":2574.427,"body":"So they could be working and,"},{"startTime":2571.577,"endTime":2574.427,"body":"and prioritizing appropriately"},{"startTime":2574.427,"endTime":2576.107,"body":"for their development teams."},{"startTime":2576.617,"endTime":2583.577,"body":"That said they would be working maybe"},{"startTime":2576.617,"endTime":2583.577,"body":"more so with those end users utilizing"},{"startTime":2583.697,"endTime":2590.667,"body":"Excel, right , where a product manager"},{"startTime":2583.697,"endTime":2590.667,"body":"might be working with the company"},{"startTime":2590.667,"endTime":2597.307,"body":"leadership that would be purchasing"},{"startTime":2590.667,"endTime":2597.307,"body":"the enterprise software portfolio"},{"startTime":2597.307,"endTime":2599.617,"body":"of Microsoft office to be utilized."},{"startTime":2599.617,"endTime":2600.127,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2600.127,"endTime":2603.607,"body":"Mm-hmm  so I think there's some"},{"startTime":2600.127,"endTime":2603.607,"body":"granularity there, but there is"},{"startTime":2603.607,"endTime":2609.427,"body":"definitely a communication and"},{"startTime":2603.607,"endTime":2609.427,"body":"collaboration that should be happening"},{"startTime":2609.527,"endTime":2612.017,"body":"and overlap between the PO and the PM."},{"startTime":2612.067,"endTime":2615.777,"body":"We're kind of thinking about the"},{"startTime":2612.067,"endTime":2615.777,"body":"external versus internal product"},{"startTime":2615.777,"endTime":2621.207,"body":"cycle when we're dividing the role"},{"startTime":2615.777,"endTime":2621.207,"body":"of this is this is way I don't know."},{"startTime":2621.257,"endTime":2625.397,"body":"I only bring up Mike's opinion because"},{"startTime":2621.257,"endTime":2625.397,"body":"I like that's one opinion, right?"},{"startTime":2625.697,"endTime":2629.807,"body":"When people ask me this, my opinion"},{"startTime":2625.697,"endTime":2629.807,"body":"is you should keep the two together."},{"startTime":2630.197,"endTime":2632.567,"body":"You're like, you're just calling"},{"startTime":2630.197,"endTime":2632.567,"body":"product manager and be done with it."},{"startTime":2632.867,"endTime":2636.947,"body":"keep the two roles together until"},{"startTime":2632.867,"endTime":2636.947,"body":"you, until your organization gets big"},{"startTime":2636.952,"endTime":2643.487,"body":"enough where it's just too too much"},{"startTime":2636.952,"endTime":2643.487,"body":"context switching to keep the two"},{"startTime":2643.487,"endTime":2648.527,"body":"roles together where there's, there's"},{"startTime":2643.487,"endTime":2648.527,"body":"so much chatter happening external to"},{"startTime":2648.527,"endTime":2652.037,"body":"the organization, and so much chatter"},{"startTime":2648.527,"endTime":2652.037,"body":"happening internal to your organization."},{"startTime":2652.037,"endTime":2656.362,"body":"That it's just, it's not possible for"},{"startTime":2652.037,"endTime":2656.362,"body":"one person to live in both those spaces."},{"startTime":2656.752,"endTime":2660.442,"body":"And then it makes sense to"},{"startTime":2656.752,"endTime":2660.442,"body":"separate the role of the product"},{"startTime":2660.442,"endTime":2661.702,"body":"manager versus product owner."},{"startTime":2661.762,"endTime":2662.272,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":2662.302,"endTime":2668.252,"body":"Even when I say it, I am only sensitively"},{"startTime":2662.302,"endTime":2668.252,"body":"you know, behind what I'm saying,"},{"startTime":2668.252,"endTime":2669.992,"body":"cuz I'm like, Mmm, I don't know."},{"startTime":2669.992,"endTime":2673.052,"body":"Like you can scale your"},{"startTime":2669.992,"endTime":2673.052,"body":"organization to a point where your."},{"startTime":2673.847,"endTime":2678.197,"body":"Owners slash managers never"},{"startTime":2673.847,"endTime":2678.197,"body":"get overwhelmed because you're"},{"startTime":2678.407,"endTime":2682.517,"body":"scaling their little pieces of the"},{"startTime":2678.407,"endTime":2682.517,"body":"business and their teams and their"},{"startTime":2682.787,"endTime":2684.947,"body":"teams responsibilities and stuff."},{"startTime":2685.187,"endTime":2689.441,"body":"if you get to a point where without"},{"startTime":2685.187,"endTime":2689.441,"body":"using any titles at all, a certain"},{"startTime":2689.441,"endTime":2693.431,"body":"group of product, people are"},{"startTime":2689.441,"endTime":2693.431,"body":"only dealing with external facing"},{"startTime":2693.581,"endTime":2695.591,"body":"and a certain group of product."},{"startTime":2695.591,"endTime":2697.841,"body":"People are only dealing"},{"startTime":2695.591,"endTime":2697.841,"body":"with internal facing."},{"startTime":2698.801,"endTime":2699.011,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2699.011,"endTime":2700.301,"body":"They're hard delineations."},{"startTime":2700.301,"endTime":2700.781,"body":"Probably not."},{"startTime":2701.141,"endTime":2701.431,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2701.436,"endTime":2701.711,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2701.716,"endTime":2703.811,"body":"It's you gotta create silos at your point."},{"startTime":2703.891,"endTime":2705.551,"body":"That's what, that's where I'm going."},{"startTime":2705.551,"endTime":2708.881,"body":"I'm like, you're, you're probably"},{"startTime":2705.551,"endTime":2708.881,"body":"very quickly coming to a point where"},{"startTime":2708.881,"endTime":2714.091,"body":"you're recreating silos and that's,"},{"startTime":2708.881,"endTime":2714.091,"body":"I don't think that's a good thing."},{"startTime":2714.141,"endTime":2718.821,"body":"If you are a product person, I don't"},{"startTime":2714.141,"endTime":2718.821,"body":"know, owner manager doesn't matter."},{"startTime":2719.361,"endTime":2723.831,"body":"There's a certain point of tactics and"},{"startTime":2719.361,"endTime":2723.831,"body":"strategy involved like every product"},{"startTime":2723.831,"endTime":2728.781,"body":"owner who has one and only one team,"},{"startTime":2723.831,"endTime":2728.781,"body":"two teams doesn't really matter."},{"startTime":2729.281,"endTime":2733.281,"body":"You have a point where  you're"},{"startTime":2729.281,"endTime":2733.281,"body":"plugging your team into the strategy,"},{"startTime":2733.781,"endTime":2739.631,"body":"organizational Strat high level, five"},{"startTime":2733.781,"endTime":2739.631,"body":"years, six months, anywhere in between."},{"startTime":2740.131,"endTime":2743.131,"body":"But as a product person, you're"},{"startTime":2740.131,"endTime":2743.131,"body":"plugged into the next two"},{"startTime":2743.131,"endTime":2744.331,"body":"sprints ahead of where you're at."},{"startTime":2744.361,"endTime":2747.451,"body":"So six, six weeks out, right."},{"startTime":2747.631,"endTime":2748.441,"body":"That's where you live."},{"startTime":2748.441,"endTime":2751.861,"body":"You live sprint N plus two mm-hmm"},{"startTime":2752.521,"endTime":2755.041,"body":"That's where your backlog"},{"startTime":2752.521,"endTime":2755.041,"body":"extends past that."},{"startTime":2755.071,"endTime":2755.581,"body":"Who knows?"},{"startTime":2755.581,"endTime":2756.571,"body":"We can throw everything out."},{"startTime":2756.631,"endTime":2757.441,"body":"Doesn't really matter."},{"startTime":2758.071,"endTime":2762.451,"body":"That's a very tactical world to"},{"startTime":2758.071,"endTime":2762.451,"body":"live in is sprint N plus two."},{"startTime":2762.461,"endTime":2766.816,"body":"I'm gonna do all my backlog sessions,"},{"startTime":2762.461,"endTime":2766.816,"body":"all my interviews, all my team"},{"startTime":2766.816,"endTime":2770.336,"body":"reviews and story building and"},{"startTime":2766.816,"endTime":2770.336,"body":"epic breaking down epics and stuff"},{"startTime":2770.336,"endTime":2773.096,"body":"like that in sprint N plus two."},{"startTime":2773.876,"endTime":2776.546,"body":"And, and certainly there"},{"startTime":2773.876,"endTime":2776.546,"body":"is a need for that."},{"startTime":2776.546,"endTime":2781.026,"body":"There is certainly a need for that,"},{"startTime":2776.546,"endTime":2781.026,"body":"but that product person who's living"},{"startTime":2781.026,"endTime":2785.406,"body":"in that small tactical world should"},{"startTime":2781.026,"endTime":2785.406,"body":"be able to extend themselves to"},{"startTime":2785.411,"endTime":2789.736,"body":"connect with the strategy, to bring"},{"startTime":2785.411,"endTime":2789.736,"body":"it into the world of sprint N plus."},{"startTime":2790.236,"endTime":2790.476,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":2790.476,"endTime":2793.116,"body":"That's where their product"},{"startTime":2790.476,"endTime":2793.116,"body":"backlog comes into place."},{"startTime":2793.116,"endTime":2793.356,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2793.356,"endTime":2797.526,"body":"They're looking at it from a kind of"},{"startTime":2793.356,"endTime":2797.526,"body":"a micro lens of sprint N plus two."},{"startTime":2797.826,"endTime":2797.886,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2798.066,"endTime":2803.046,"body":"But that chunk of work belongs on"},{"startTime":2798.066,"endTime":2803.046,"body":"their product roadmap somewhere."},{"startTime":2803.051,"endTime":2804.576,"body":"It's not just completely random."},{"startTime":2804.576,"endTime":2804.996,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":2804.996,"endTime":2807.246,"body":"It's still contributing"},{"startTime":2804.996,"endTime":2807.246,"body":"to the original vision."},{"startTime":2807.246,"endTime":2809.736,"body":"Well, that's my point that"},{"startTime":2807.246,"endTime":2809.736,"body":"they have to lobby for what"},{"startTime":2809.736,"endTime":2811.126,"body":"is coming up in the strategy."},{"startTime":2811.476,"endTime":2811.656,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2811.686,"endTime":2812.616,"body":"to change it."},{"startTime":2812.616,"endTime":2816.486,"body":"And they have to have a say, cuz"},{"startTime":2812.616,"endTime":2816.486,"body":"they live in the tactical world."},{"startTime":2816.726,"endTime":2821.466,"body":"So they should have a say, even if"},{"startTime":2816.726,"endTime":2821.466,"body":"they don't make concrete changes,"},{"startTime":2821.516,"endTime":2825.386,"body":"they should have a say to say, Hey"},{"startTime":2821.516,"endTime":2825.386,"body":"if you do this, this is what's gonna"},{"startTime":2825.386,"endTime":2827.456,"body":"happen at a technical team level."},{"startTime":2827.816,"endTime":2831.086,"body":"Yeah, so that the organization"},{"startTime":2827.816,"endTime":2831.086,"body":"can knock down risks."},{"startTime":2831.386,"endTime":2832.736,"body":"Well, it's also, yes, I agree."},{"startTime":2832.736,"endTime":2836.636,"body":"And also it's that, they're the"},{"startTime":2832.736,"endTime":2836.636,"body":"ones that can see the blind spots."},{"startTime":2836.636,"endTime":2841.526,"body":"Cause if you're really living up here at"},{"startTime":2836.636,"endTime":2841.526,"body":"a higher level, strategic level, you're"},{"startTime":2841.526,"endTime":2845.996,"body":"not really aware of the blind spots, an"},{"startTime":2841.526,"endTime":2845.996,"body":"example might be there's there might be"},{"startTime":2845.996,"endTime":2850.206,"body":"a regulatory change that the strategic"},{"startTime":2845.996,"endTime":2850.206,"body":"folks aren't necessarily aware of."},{"startTime":2850.236,"endTime":2850.416,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2850.476,"endTime":2855.746,"body":"But these guys will say, we can't do this"},{"startTime":2850.476,"endTime":2855.746,"body":"because you know, or GDPR or something."},{"startTime":2855.746,"endTime":2858.536,"body":"So people can see that and say,"},{"startTime":2855.746,"endTime":2858.536,"body":"yeah, we get what we have to"},{"startTime":2858.536,"endTime":2860.276,"body":"do, but we have to pivot it now."},{"startTime":2860.396,"endTime":2860.786,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2860.791,"endTime":2863.181,"body":"Those micro pivots they happen."},{"startTime":2863.181,"endTime":2863.421,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2863.421,"endTime":2866.631,"body":"But they can't just say, oh, we're"},{"startTime":2863.421,"endTime":2866.631,"body":"gonna work on something else altogether."},{"startTime":2866.901,"endTime":2868.641,"body":"That's currently not in the roadmap."},{"startTime":2868.641,"endTime":2869.571,"body":"They can't do that."},{"startTime":2869.871,"endTime":2870.801,"body":"That doesn't make sense."},{"startTime":2870.806,"endTime":2872.121,"body":"That's chaos at that point."},{"startTime":2872.361,"endTime":2872.601,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2872.751,"endTime":2875.711,"body":"So I'd say that when I hear"},{"startTime":2872.751,"endTime":2875.711,"body":"you saying these things,  there"},{"startTime":2875.711,"endTime":2878.561,"body":"should be some alignment here"},{"startTime":2875.711,"endTime":2878.561,"body":"when we're talking tactical."},{"startTime":2878.561,"endTime":2880.031,"body":"I totally get this N plus two."},{"startTime":2880.031,"endTime":2881.471,"body":"That makes perfect sense."},{"startTime":2881.471,"endTime":2881.801,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2882.371,"endTime":2887.051,"body":"But ultimately to your point should be"},{"startTime":2882.371,"endTime":2887.051,"body":"leading, should be tied into strategy,"},{"startTime":2887.651,"endTime":2894.251,"body":"which in my mind comes from, if we're"},{"startTime":2887.651,"endTime":2894.251,"body":"moving bottom to top sprint, sprint goal"},{"startTime":2894.521,"endTime":2899.841,"body":"into product, into product goal, which"},{"startTime":2894.521,"endTime":2899.841,"body":"should be tied to our organization,"},{"startTime":2900.521,"endTime":2902.141,"body":"mission values and all those."},{"startTime":2902.146,"endTime":2906.791,"body":"So, so ultimately, I mean, even"},{"startTime":2902.146,"endTime":2906.791,"body":"tactically, we should be able to"},{"startTime":2906.791,"endTime":2911.171,"body":"tie those to our overall mission"},{"startTime":2906.791,"endTime":2911.171,"body":"of what we're trying to accomplish."},{"startTime":2911.381,"endTime":2911.591,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":2911.901,"endTime":2913.101,"body":"We all gotta be on the same pages."},{"startTime":2913.101,"endTime":2914.601,"body":"Like how do we knock down these problems?"},{"startTime":2914.751,"endTime":2918.881,"body":"Well, in the, in the short term, in the"},{"startTime":2914.751,"endTime":2918.881,"body":"next two sprints, if I'm doing two week"},{"startTime":2918.886,"endTime":2922.781,"body":"sprints in the next month, the way I can"},{"startTime":2918.886,"endTime":2922.781,"body":"deal with these problems is, well, I can"},{"startTime":2922.781,"endTime":2925.751,"body":"deal with these things and they're very"},{"startTime":2922.781,"endTime":2925.751,"body":"quick, but they're not a permanent fix."},{"startTime":2925.801,"endTime":2928.771,"body":"The permanent solution is"},{"startTime":2925.801,"endTime":2928.771,"body":"usually much, much larger."},{"startTime":2928.921,"endTime":2929.251,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2929.821,"endTime":2930.091,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2930.281,"endTime":2934.361,"body":"And I like to get into the, how"},{"startTime":2930.281,"endTime":2934.361,"body":"that's, that's one of my coming"},{"startTime":2934.361,"endTime":2937.941,"body":"from a dev team , comeuppance."},{"startTime":2938.001,"endTime":2941.331,"body":"What's a, what's a good word is good"},{"startTime":2938.001,"endTime":2941.331,"body":"coming from, from a dev team backwards."},{"startTime":2942.171,"endTime":2942.711,"body":"Comeuppance."},{"startTime":2943.041,"endTime":2943.491,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2943.491,"endTime":2943.751,"body":"I mean, yeah, sure."},{"startTime":2943.981,"endTime":2950.251,"body":"I like to get into the, how if we're gonna"},{"startTime":2943.981,"endTime":2950.251,"body":"do something, how are we gonna do it?"},{"startTime":2950.256,"endTime":2953.971,"body":"Mm-hmm I like to get into that"},{"startTime":2950.256,"endTime":2953.971,"body":"at at least a fair bit to make"},{"startTime":2953.971,"endTime":2955.171,"body":"sure that the team understand."},{"startTime":2955.711,"endTime":2959.831,"body":"The, the goal of where we're going"},{"startTime":2955.711,"endTime":2959.831,"body":"that, and that, that's probably my,"},{"startTime":2959.981,"endTime":2964.161,"body":"that's probably the detriment to anyone"},{"startTime":2959.981,"endTime":2964.161,"body":"who comes up to product management"},{"startTime":2964.221,"endTime":2968.561,"body":"from the debt teams is  number one,"},{"startTime":2964.221,"endTime":2968.561,"body":"you need to abandon an analysis at"},{"startTime":2968.561,"endTime":2970.451,"body":"some point, just be like, this is it."},{"startTime":2970.451,"endTime":2972.281,"body":"This is the cutoff of analysis I'm out."},{"startTime":2972.341,"endTime":2973.631,"body":"Like I've done enough analysis."},{"startTime":2973.691,"endTime":2977.671,"body":"And the other point is you need"},{"startTime":2973.691,"endTime":2977.671,"body":"to get out of the business of how"},{"startTime":2978.311,"endTime":2984.881,"body":"and technology solutions, the very"},{"startTime":2978.311,"endTime":2984.881,"body":"specific solutioning of things,  how"},{"startTime":2985.361,"endTime":2989.596,"body":"UI are built that's something I"},{"startTime":2985.361,"endTime":2989.596,"body":"definitely I'm like, I hate all UIs."},{"startTime":2989.646,"endTime":2993.706,"body":"I've designed webpages, I've"},{"startTime":2989.646,"endTime":2993.706,"body":"designed a web application solutions."},{"startTime":2993.706,"endTime":2997.996,"body":"So like, I generally know what"},{"startTime":2993.706,"endTime":2997.996,"body":"is quick changes and what is not"},{"startTime":2998.356,"endTime":3002.466,"body":"So when I, when we're going through"},{"startTime":2998.356,"endTime":3002.466,"body":"and doing like, I story pointing, for"},{"startTime":3002.466,"endTime":3006.566,"body":"example, it's like, oh, this is like an"},{"startTime":3002.466,"endTime":3006.566,"body":"eight I'm like, I know is it an eight?"},{"startTime":3006.596,"endTime":3010.016,"body":"Like, you're just changing some"},{"startTime":3006.596,"endTime":3010.016,"body":"colors why, why is this an eight?"},{"startTime":3010.256,"endTime":3013.616,"body":"I guess I bring this up to say there"},{"startTime":3010.256,"endTime":3013.616,"body":"are different things that I will"},{"startTime":3013.616,"endTime":3019.286,"body":"challenge because I came up from being"},{"startTime":3013.616,"endTime":3019.286,"body":"on development teams comeuppance..."},{"startTime":3019.526,"endTime":3023.686,"body":"That's a terrible, terrible phrase"},{"startTime":3019.526,"endTime":3023.686,"body":"that, that maybe if you came up through"},{"startTime":3023.686,"endTime":3026.686,"body":"the business domain and you didn't"},{"startTime":3023.686,"endTime":3026.686,"body":"have expertise in development, you"},{"startTime":3026.686,"endTime":3028.246,"body":"would never think it to challenge."},{"startTime":3028.526,"endTime":3029.396,"body":"You would never think that."},{"startTime":3029.636,"endTime":3034.826,"body":"Say like, oh, why, why is it, why have"},{"startTime":3029.636,"endTime":3034.826,"body":"you guys been working three days to make"},{"startTime":3034.826,"endTime":3036.926,"body":"a change to this dropdown or whatever?"},{"startTime":3036.981,"endTime":3038.541,"body":"Why does it take you three days?"},{"startTime":3038.691,"endTime":3041.241,"body":"Add an option, give it"},{"startTime":3038.691,"endTime":3041.241,"body":"an ID and you're done."},{"startTime":3041.481,"endTime":3042.381,"body":"It's good and bad."},{"startTime":3042.381,"endTime":3047.211,"body":"I mean, I understand coming"},{"startTime":3042.381,"endTime":3047.211,"body":"from a business lineage,"},{"startTime":3047.571,"endTime":3048.591,"body":"come up, you could say that."},{"startTime":3049.221,"endTime":3049.371,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3049.371,"endTime":3050.961,"body":"It's coming from that background."},{"startTime":3051.016,"endTime":3055.406,"body":"It's very difficult to kind of extract"},{"startTime":3051.016,"endTime":3055.406,"body":"yourself out of that mode of thinking."},{"startTime":3055.586,"endTime":3059.006,"body":"This should only take so many"},{"startTime":3055.586,"endTime":3059.006,"body":"seconds or this is easy to do."},{"startTime":3059.096,"endTime":3059.246,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3059.276,"endTime":3059.606,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3060.036,"endTime":3062.816,"body":"that's one thing, the other"},{"startTime":3060.036,"endTime":3062.816,"body":"thing is getting to the point"},{"startTime":3062.816,"endTime":3065.006,"body":"where you let go, let go of that."},{"startTime":3065.011,"endTime":3066.416,"body":"You're not in that role anymore."},{"startTime":3066.421,"endTime":3066.606,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3066.611,"endTime":3069.266,"body":"You're not developing software anymore."},{"startTime":3069.326,"endTime":3069.596,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3069.716,"endTime":3070.886,"body":"That is so difficult."},{"startTime":3070.886,"endTime":3071.786,"body":"I found right."},{"startTime":3071.786,"endTime":3072.866,"body":"That is very hard."},{"startTime":3073.376,"endTime":3076.166,"body":"so the thing I wanted to talk"},{"startTime":3073.376,"endTime":3076.166,"body":"about there just really briefly."},{"startTime":3076.886,"endTime":3079.346,"body":"Sometimes the developers"},{"startTime":3076.886,"endTime":3079.346,"body":"will surprise you."},{"startTime":3079.406,"endTime":3082.856,"body":"So when you say to them, I want to change"},{"startTime":3079.406,"endTime":3082.856,"body":"the color of this, and you say it's a"},{"startTime":3083.546,"endTime":3085.346,"body":"three point story or five point story."},{"startTime":3085.346,"endTime":3087.686,"body":"It really should just"},{"startTime":3085.346,"endTime":3087.686,"body":"be an hour at the most."},{"startTime":3087.926,"endTime":3088.346,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3088.976,"endTime":3091.826,"body":"And they'll say, well, no, one of"},{"startTime":3088.976,"endTime":3091.826,"body":"the things I wanna do as part of"},{"startTime":3091.826,"endTime":3095.636,"body":"that is to make sure that it's,"},{"startTime":3091.826,"endTime":3095.636,"body":"you know ADA compliant or whatever"},{"startTime":3095.696,"endTime":3097.376,"body":"the term is w three a right."},{"startTime":3097.376,"endTime":3097.436,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3097.936,"endTime":3098.686,"body":"And you go, oh, I didn't think of that."},{"startTime":3098.696,"endTime":3099.916,"body":"Mm-hmm  but they did."},{"startTime":3100.336,"endTime":3102.286,"body":"So that's where yeah."},{"startTime":3102.286,"endTime":3106.126,"body":"You kind of just go so far and then just"},{"startTime":3102.286,"endTime":3106.126,"body":"let them have it, trust them with it."},{"startTime":3106.196,"endTime":3107.546,"body":"Oh, we're gonna argue about this one."},{"startTime":3108.236,"endTime":3109.496,"body":"Like trust them with it."},{"startTime":3109.496,"endTime":3110.356,"body":"But also shouldn't."},{"startTime":3110.356,"endTime":3111.376,"body":"We negotiate that."},{"startTime":3112.366,"endTime":3115.726,"body":"and document what we agree on"},{"startTime":3112.366,"endTime":3115.726,"body":"in the acceptance criteria."},{"startTime":3115.786,"endTime":3116.086,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":3116.086,"endTime":3117.796,"body":"Cause because I might not care."},{"startTime":3117.796,"endTime":3121.816,"body":"I might be like, oh, listen, we'll, we'll"},{"startTime":3117.796,"endTime":3121.816,"body":"deal with compliance and we'll deal with"},{"startTime":3121.986,"endTime":3124.136,"body":"what, what is the term for accessibility."},{"startTime":3124.141,"endTime":3124.736,"body":"Accessibility?"},{"startTime":3124.736,"endTime":3125.396,"body":"Yeah, that's the term."},{"startTime":3125.546,"endTime":3125.936,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3125.936,"endTime":3125.937,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3126.036,"endTime":3129.236,"body":"We'll deal with accessibility,  two"},{"startTime":3126.036,"endTime":3129.236,"body":"sprints from now when we deal with"},{"startTime":3129.236,"endTime":3134.066,"body":"the whole site and we try to flatten"},{"startTime":3129.236,"endTime":3134.066,"body":"the whole site for accessibility"},{"startTime":3134.066,"endTime":3135.806,"body":"and I have a whole story for that."},{"startTime":3135.866,"endTime":3138.636,"body":"And I promise I will create"},{"startTime":3135.866,"endTime":3138.636,"body":"a whole story for that."},{"startTime":3139.311,"endTime":3144.721,"body":"and deal with it in one go, but right"},{"startTime":3139.311,"endTime":3144.721,"body":"now we're just trying to, demo the"},{"startTime":3144.721,"endTime":3147.331,"body":"site for, to try to sell it or whatever"},{"startTime":3147.581,"endTime":3148.511,"body":"that, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":3148.571,"endTime":3149.291,"body":"Yeah, of course."},{"startTime":3149.291,"endTime":3154.031,"body":"So in that case, if there's a deliberate"},{"startTime":3149.291,"endTime":3154.031,"body":"plan to address that specific thing."},{"startTime":3154.151,"endTime":3154.751,"body":"Yeah, sure."},{"startTime":3154.756,"endTime":3155.621,"body":"Yes, absolutely."},{"startTime":3156.071,"endTime":3159.641,"body":"My example was more about something"},{"startTime":3156.071,"endTime":3159.641,"body":"that wasn't thought about and they"},{"startTime":3159.641,"endTime":3161.741,"body":"actually came up with the idea ah, yeah."},{"startTime":3162.211,"endTime":3165.221,"body":"In, in that case you either say, yeah,"},{"startTime":3162.211,"endTime":3165.221,"body":"that was a good idea, but not now."},{"startTime":3165.371,"endTime":3165.611,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3165.616,"endTime":3167.561,"body":"We'll pull it later or whatever."},{"startTime":3167.861,"endTime":3168.011,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3168.041,"endTime":3168.671,"body":"But yeah, just."},{"startTime":3169.301,"endTime":3172.211,"body":"The point I'm making is it's"},{"startTime":3169.301,"endTime":3172.211,"body":"hard for people that came from"},{"startTime":3172.211,"endTime":3176.591,"body":"a technology background to just"},{"startTime":3172.211,"endTime":3176.591,"body":"walk away from that and let go."},{"startTime":3176.596,"endTime":3178.901,"body":"And relinquish controls in many ways"},{"startTime":3178.931,"endTime":3183.846,"body":"I think the harder point in this is"},{"startTime":3178.931,"endTime":3183.846,"body":"because I think the skill to challenge"},{"startTime":3184.356,"endTime":3186.656,"body":"the team, to say, Hey, I agree with you."},{"startTime":3186.656,"endTime":3190.916,"body":"That is important, but it's"},{"startTime":3186.656,"endTime":3190.916,"body":"not important to deal with now."},{"startTime":3190.921,"endTime":3194.936,"body":"I'm gonna take it and move it over"},{"startTime":3190.921,"endTime":3194.936,"body":"here and we'll deal with it later"},{"startTime":3195.566,"endTime":3198.656,"body":", that skillset, I think, transcends"},{"startTime":3195.566,"endTime":3198.656,"body":"anything we're talking about today."},{"startTime":3198.846,"endTime":3204.491,"body":"I think there's a future podcast on this"},{"startTime":3198.846,"endTime":3204.491,"body":"specific topic about cause human nature."},{"startTime":3204.671,"endTime":3208.971,"body":"You don't want to stand in front"},{"startTime":3204.671,"endTime":3208.971,"body":"of the tribe and, be like, oh,"},{"startTime":3208.971,"endTime":3212.721,"body":"well like all y'all are wrong and"},{"startTime":3208.971,"endTime":3212.721,"body":"I'm the only one that's right."},{"startTime":3213.181,"endTime":3217.081,"body":"You don't want to call out everyone"},{"startTime":3213.181,"endTime":3217.081,"body":"and be like, and, and, and challenge"},{"startTime":3217.081,"endTime":3221.721,"body":"a large number of people being the"},{"startTime":3217.081,"endTime":3221.721,"body":"only person there probably are people"},{"startTime":3221.721,"endTime":3222.951,"body":"that have no problem doing that."},{"startTime":3223.039,"endTime":3225.159,"body":"But you don't do it all the time."},{"startTime":3225.159,"endTime":3226.059,"body":"You certainly don't."},{"startTime":3226.059,"endTime":3228.699,"body":"I certainly don't do, I had"},{"startTime":3226.059,"endTime":3228.699,"body":"no problem doing that, but"},{"startTime":3228.699,"endTime":3230.409,"body":"I won't do it all the time."},{"startTime":3230.679,"endTime":3232.329,"body":"I will pick and choose those battles."},{"startTime":3233.139,"endTime":3237.209,"body":"But also when you are doing"},{"startTime":3233.139,"endTime":3237.209,"body":"it, you are kind of fighting"},{"startTime":3237.209,"endTime":3238.919,"body":"against your human nature."},{"startTime":3239.199,"endTime":3246.059,"body":"There's a thing about the only time in"},{"startTime":3239.199,"endTime":3246.059,"body":"your human caveman nature that you like,"},{"startTime":3246.449,"endTime":3252.089,"body":"you alone have to deal with a large group"},{"startTime":3246.449,"endTime":3252.089,"body":"of people that are opposing your point of"},{"startTime":3252.089,"endTime":3259.259,"body":"view is like when you are being judged by"},{"startTime":3252.089,"endTime":3259.259,"body":"the tribe and your life might be in danger"},{"startTime":3259.259,"endTime":3261.239,"body":"when you are being judged by the tribe."},{"startTime":3261.239,"endTime":3261.479,"body":"Hmm."},{"startTime":3261.629,"endTime":3263.549,"body":"So it's, it's very difficult."},{"startTime":3264.194,"endTime":3267.254,"body":"To deal with that situation when"},{"startTime":3264.194,"endTime":3267.254,"body":"you're being judged by a large group"},{"startTime":3267.254,"endTime":3271.354,"body":"of people, to be the only person to"},{"startTime":3267.254,"endTime":3271.354,"body":"be , no, everyone's wrong and I'm right."},{"startTime":3271.504,"endTime":3272.374,"body":"but you might be right."},{"startTime":3272.379,"endTime":3273.814,"body":"You might be like, here's my evidence."},{"startTime":3274.044,"endTime":3278.484,"body":"And, and you actually might be the only"},{"startTime":3274.044,"endTime":3278.484,"body":"person out of that group that has gathered"},{"startTime":3278.484,"endTime":3282.084,"body":"evidence to prove or, or disprove right."},{"startTime":3282.084,"endTime":3282.654,"body":"Or whatever."},{"startTime":3282.964,"endTime":3287.074,"body":"Nobody else in the whole group might"},{"startTime":3282.964,"endTime":3287.074,"body":"have any EV they might not know at all."},{"startTime":3287.074,"endTime":3288.214,"body":"They might have no opinion."},{"startTime":3288.214,"endTime":3289.834,"body":"They might have no opinion on that at all."},{"startTime":3290.044,"endTime":3293.894,"body":"But you, as a product person has"},{"startTime":3290.044,"endTime":3293.894,"body":"to bring ring the evidence that"},{"startTime":3293.894,"endTime":3298.604,"body":"supports an opinion mm-hmm  and then"},{"startTime":3293.894,"endTime":3298.604,"body":"people can pick apart that or not."},{"startTime":3299.024,"endTime":3303.534,"body":"But again we go back to I don't even"},{"startTime":3299.024,"endTime":3303.534,"body":"want to challenge a group cuz  they might"},{"startTime":3303.534,"endTime":3305.724,"body":"vote me off the island or whatever  yeah."},{"startTime":3305.724,"endTime":3309.244,"body":"Well you succumb to group think"},{"startTime":3305.724,"endTime":3309.244,"body":"or you don't feel confident."},{"startTime":3309.244,"endTime":3312.904,"body":"It's super tough in yourself to be"},{"startTime":3309.244,"endTime":3312.904,"body":"able to stand up to everybody and"},{"startTime":3312.904,"endTime":3314.224,"body":"say you are wrong and I'm right."},{"startTime":3314.224,"endTime":3314.884,"body":"Kind of thing."},{"startTime":3314.884,"endTime":3315.184,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":3315.189,"endTime":3316.144,"body":"There's that too."},{"startTime":3316.194,"endTime":3319.969,"body":"So I think that has a lot to do with"},{"startTime":3316.194,"endTime":3319.969,"body":"culture and, and, and trust and if you"},{"startTime":3319.969,"endTime":3326.929,"body":"are comfortable with disagreement of"},{"startTime":3319.969,"endTime":3326.929,"body":"your ideas, then you should also be"},{"startTime":3326.929,"endTime":3330.109,"body":"comfortable with disagreeing with others."},{"startTime":3330.109,"endTime":3334.479,"body":"So it becomes this very, very in"},{"startTime":3330.109,"endTime":3334.479,"body":"integrated, integrated into culture."},{"startTime":3334.479,"endTime":3339.699,"body":"So I will say from my perspective,"},{"startTime":3334.479,"endTime":3339.699,"body":"coming from the domain perspective"},{"startTime":3339.699,"endTime":3341.639,"body":"from the healthcare domain, that."},{"startTime":3342.139,"endTime":3347.569,"body":"I've never had the issue of delving into"},{"startTime":3342.139,"endTime":3347.569,"body":"the how, because it wasn't, it wasn't,"},{"startTime":3347.569,"endTime":3349.519,"body":"it wasn't something I ever stepped into."},{"startTime":3349.639,"endTime":3349.789,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3349.819,"endTime":3351.469,"body":"Because I didn't know how to right."},{"startTime":3351.474,"endTime":3355.159,"body":"It, it literally, wasn't, it's something"},{"startTime":3351.474,"endTime":3355.159,"body":"I wanted to learn about and I certainly"},{"startTime":3355.399,"endTime":3360.249,"body":"would ask questions and, but we didn't"},{"startTime":3355.399,"endTime":3360.249,"body":"when we were getting into micro services"},{"startTime":3360.249,"endTime":3365.215,"body":"and all these databases and all these"},{"startTime":3360.249,"endTime":3365.215,"body":"Kubernetes and Mongo and all these things."},{"startTime":3365.265,"endTime":3365.685,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3365.745,"endTime":3369.225,"body":"So, I mean, they'll, they'll tell"},{"startTime":3365.745,"endTime":3369.225,"body":"me what I need to know and tell me"},{"startTime":3369.225,"endTime":3372.495,"body":"give me the Cliff's notes version"},{"startTime":3369.225,"endTime":3372.495,"body":"so I can understand high level."},{"startTime":3372.585,"endTime":3377.255,"body":"Yeah , but I never got into the how,"},{"startTime":3372.585,"endTime":3377.255,"body":"because I didn't know how to, and I think"},{"startTime":3377.255,"endTime":3379.485,"body":"to my perspective, that was an advantage."},{"startTime":3379.925,"endTime":3385.405,"body":"That said there's some potentially"},{"startTime":3379.925,"endTime":3385.405,"body":"disadvantage too, with coming in with"},{"startTime":3385.405,"endTime":3391.015,"body":"domain expertise and thinking that"},{"startTime":3385.405,"endTime":3391.015,"body":"what's best potentially oh, right."},{"startTime":3391.015,"endTime":3393.325,"body":"And leading and guiding."},{"startTime":3393.325,"endTime":3393.745,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3393.835,"endTime":3398.725,"body":"Where maybe, maybe you aren't as open"},{"startTime":3393.835,"endTime":3398.725,"body":"mind as, as you, as you thought you were."},{"startTime":3398.775,"endTime":3404.805,"body":"so just, I, I think the same trap could"},{"startTime":3398.775,"endTime":3404.805,"body":"be had on both sides of that coin."},{"startTime":3405.015,"endTime":3408.825,"body":"And again, coming back to self"},{"startTime":3405.015,"endTime":3408.825,"body":"awareness, being open, having that"},{"startTime":3408.825,"endTime":3413.619,"body":"conversation and having the trust"},{"startTime":3408.825,"endTime":3413.619,"body":"and confidence  and safety within"},{"startTime":3413.619,"endTime":3420.759,"body":"your team or organization to hear"},{"startTime":3413.619,"endTime":3420.759,"body":"feedback contrary and to give contrary"},{"startTime":3420.759,"endTime":3425.149,"body":"feedback and have the respect of the"},{"startTime":3420.759,"endTime":3425.149,"body":"individuals to, to hear and receive that."},{"startTime":3425.649,"endTime":3427.419,"body":"And also one last thing, and that is."},{"startTime":3427.869,"endTime":3429.644,"body":"You said saying yes."},{"startTime":3429.704,"endTime":3430.034,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3430.034,"endTime":3434.574,"body":"Or no , so for instance, you said,"},{"startTime":3430.034,"endTime":3434.574,"body":"Hey, accessibility, mm-hmm  yes, but"},{"startTime":3434.574,"endTime":3437.694,"body":"mm-hmm,  love that one or no, but right."},{"startTime":3437.694,"endTime":3438.984,"body":"No, not right now."},{"startTime":3439.014,"endTime":3439.164,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3439.224,"endTime":3439.584,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3439.589,"endTime":3441.894,"body":"So those are, those are"},{"startTime":3439.589,"endTime":3441.894,"body":"really powerful, right?"},{"startTime":3441.894,"endTime":3442.164,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":3442.169,"endTime":3442.434,"body":"But"},{"startTime":3442.804,"endTime":3447.544,"body":"yeah, well, that kind of stuff relies"},{"startTime":3442.804,"endTime":3447.544,"body":"on you having and painting a vision"},{"startTime":3448.474,"endTime":3454.414,"body":"What's more common is in reality, it could"},{"startTime":3448.474,"endTime":3454.414,"body":"be your vision as a strong product person."},{"startTime":3454.414,"endTime":3454.684,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3455.404,"endTime":3457.744,"body":"And they don't really"},{"startTime":3455.404,"endTime":3457.744,"body":"have that same vision."},{"startTime":3457.804,"endTime":3458.104,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3458.104,"endTime":3462.054,"body":"Mm-hmm  so fortunately for you,"},{"startTime":3458.104,"endTime":3462.054,"body":"it's gone up and then, and come"},{"startTime":3462.054,"endTime":3462.634,"body":"back down and come back down."},{"startTime":3462.634,"endTime":3463.234,"body":"Yeah, that's right."},{"startTime":3463.234,"endTime":3464.174,"body":"In other cases, it."},{"startTime":3464.704,"endTime":3465.424,"body":"Doesn't go up."},{"startTime":3465.664,"endTime":3466.084,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3466.294,"endTime":3468.184,"body":"And that's a recipe for disaster."},{"startTime":3468.184,"endTime":3469.264,"body":"That, that is a problem."},{"startTime":3469.264,"endTime":3470.174,"body":"Mm-hmm  yeah."},{"startTime":3470.179,"endTime":3471.424,"body":"Well, everything we've just run through."},{"startTime":3471.424,"endTime":3473.194,"body":"Like nobody can help with that problem."},{"startTime":3473.434,"endTime":3476.104,"body":"Whether you've come in with demand"},{"startTime":3473.434,"endTime":3476.104,"body":"expertise, whether you've come in"},{"startTime":3476.109,"endTime":3478.924,"body":"through development, whether you've"},{"startTime":3476.109,"endTime":3478.924,"body":"come through college or whatever"},{"startTime":3479.074,"endTime":3483.224,"body":"doesn't really matter how you got"},{"startTime":3479.074,"endTime":3483.224,"body":"into it you've just adopted a problem."},{"startTime":3483.229,"endTime":3484.364,"body":"Organizational problem."},{"startTime":3484.664,"endTime":3488.594,"body":"You, you now have to climb through"},{"startTime":3484.664,"endTime":3488.594,"body":"the organization regardless of your"},{"startTime":3488.594,"endTime":3493.249,"body":"background to figure out who you can"},{"startTime":3488.594,"endTime":3493.249,"body":"climb to, to solve that problem  and"},{"startTime":3493.254,"endTime":3498.799,"body":"it's gonna be a problem for you until"},{"startTime":3493.254,"endTime":3498.799,"body":"you resolve it and you, and it's your,"},{"startTime":3498.799,"endTime":3502.129,"body":"and it's not a director development."},{"startTime":3502.129,"endTime":3503.839,"body":"It's not an individual team member."},{"startTime":3503.839,"endTime":3505.249,"body":"It's not individual product owner."},{"startTime":3505.249,"endTime":3507.589,"body":"It's not any of those"},{"startTime":3505.249,"endTime":3507.589,"body":"people's responsibility."},{"startTime":3507.619,"endTime":3511.429,"body":"It's your responsibility now as a"},{"startTime":3507.619,"endTime":3511.429,"body":"product person to climb up in the"},{"startTime":3511.429,"endTime":3514.969,"body":"organization to make sure you've aligned"},{"startTime":3511.429,"endTime":3514.969,"body":"on vision and then make sure that."},{"startTime":3515.824,"endTime":3519.384,"body":"Pours down, cascades"},{"startTime":3515.824,"endTime":3519.384,"body":"down, waterfalls down."},{"startTime":3519.534,"endTime":3520.164,"body":"I don't know this."},{"startTime":3520.164,"endTime":3520.974,"body":"Oh, no waterfalls."},{"startTime":3520.974,"endTime":3521.984,"body":"Uh, yeah, trickles down."},{"startTime":3521.984,"endTime":3521.987,"body":"Yeah, trickles down."},{"startTime":3521.987,"endTime":3527.774,"body":"I would say too that, you know what, so"},{"startTime":3521.987,"endTime":3527.774,"body":"this also comes with experience, so, and"},{"startTime":3528.074,"endTime":3531.584,"body":"it's not going to be completely clear."},{"startTime":3531.684,"endTime":3536.334,"body":"as soon as you started an organization,"},{"startTime":3531.684,"endTime":3536.334,"body":"this is gonna take some time to unfold"},{"startTime":3536.339,"endTime":3538.644,"body":"and realize that this is even a problem."},{"startTime":3539.304,"endTime":3544.474,"body":"And then additional time potentially"},{"startTime":3539.304,"endTime":3544.474,"body":"to go what opportunities do I"},{"startTime":3544.474,"endTime":3545.974,"body":"have to potentially solve this?"},{"startTime":3545.974,"endTime":3547.444,"body":"And who can I collaborate with?"},{"startTime":3547.694,"endTime":3551.294,"body":", and this could be a very fine"},{"startTime":3547.694,"endTime":3551.294,"body":"line to walk in an organization."},{"startTime":3551.294,"endTime":3554.714,"body":"If you, you dependent on the type of"},{"startTime":3551.294,"endTime":3554.714,"body":"organization and a hierarchy there."},{"startTime":3554.719,"endTime":3556.574,"body":"So I agree lot."},{"startTime":3556.574,"endTime":3557.864,"body":"Depends on some experience."},{"startTime":3557.864,"endTime":3562.454,"body":"There could be very well"},{"startTime":3557.864,"endTime":3562.454,"body":"that resume updated."},{"startTime":3562.504,"endTime":3563.554,"body":"I do have a parting question."},{"startTime":3563.804,"endTime":3567.224,"body":"My question is what is the"},{"startTime":3563.804,"endTime":3567.224,"body":"one piece of advice you give"},{"startTime":3567.224,"endTime":3569.034,"body":"yourself to your younger self?"},{"startTime":3569.039,"endTime":3571.814,"body":"Let's say five years ago,  five years."},{"startTime":3572.314,"endTime":3573.694,"body":"well, or you pick a timeframe."},{"startTime":3573.844,"endTime":3577.774,"body":"Yeah, no, the, the one thing I would"},{"startTime":3573.844,"endTime":3577.774,"body":"give a piece of advice I would give"},{"startTime":3577.774,"endTime":3581.764,"body":"myself I would say from a career."},{"startTime":3581.794,"endTime":3585.474,"body":"Well  I would say two things, so"},{"startTime":3581.794,"endTime":3585.474,"body":"personally, so I would give myself"},{"startTime":3585.474,"endTime":3587.964,"body":"two pieces of advice, one for"},{"startTime":3585.474,"endTime":3587.964,"body":"personal and one for career, right?"},{"startTime":3588.274,"endTime":3593.634,"body":"Mm-hmm  I know this is very kumbaya"},{"startTime":3588.274,"endTime":3593.634,"body":"kind of hippieish, but I can't, I'm"},{"startTime":3593.634,"endTime":3600.954,"body":"realizing now I'm in my mid forties"},{"startTime":3593.634,"endTime":3600.954,"body":"and have been really ambitious and,"},{"startTime":3601.144,"endTime":3607.084,"body":"and now have an adult child and"},{"startTime":3601.144,"endTime":3607.084,"body":"a, a 23 and 15 year old daughters."},{"startTime":3607.594,"endTime":3612.904,"body":"And I've spent a lot of time in my"},{"startTime":3607.594,"endTime":3612.904,"body":"career and concentrating on that."},{"startTime":3613.504,"endTime":3615.304,"body":"And so."},{"startTime":3615.804,"endTime":3621.204,"body":"Self care and taking time with"},{"startTime":3615.804,"endTime":3621.204,"body":"your family is so important."},{"startTime":3621.204,"endTime":3626.784,"body":"I realize how important it is to take"},{"startTime":3621.204,"endTime":3626.784,"body":"care of our families financially and"},{"startTime":3627.084,"endTime":3630.564,"body":"right, but taking care of ourselves,"},{"startTime":3627.084,"endTime":3630.564,"body":"taking care of our families."},{"startTime":3631.074,"endTime":3637.044,"body":"So from that personal perspective, I"},{"startTime":3631.074,"endTime":3637.044,"body":"would tell myself, five, 10 years ago, pay"},{"startTime":3637.044,"endTime":3638.934,"body":"more attention, cuz it goes by quickly."},{"startTime":3638.934,"endTime":3642.794,"body":"And I know that sounds so cliche, but"},{"startTime":3638.934,"endTime":3642.794,"body":"I, I really would say that to myself."},{"startTime":3642.794,"endTime":3643.514,"body":"That's very true."},{"startTime":3643.774,"endTime":3648.564,"body":"So I guess professionally, I"},{"startTime":3643.774,"endTime":3648.564,"body":"would say that, gosh, I would say"},{"startTime":3648.564,"endTime":3651.594,"body":"something very different to myself"},{"startTime":3648.564,"endTime":3651.594,"body":"five years ago than I would say"},{"startTime":3651.594,"endTime":3653.334,"body":"to myself a year or two years ago."},{"startTime":3653.334,"endTime":3656.784,"body":"So the before times versus the now times."},{"startTime":3656.784,"endTime":3656.844,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3656.849,"endTime":3656.914,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3656.919,"endTime":3657.264,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3657.269,"endTime":3658.844,"body":"So, but I would."},{"startTime":3659.344,"endTime":3667.114,"body":"venture to develop strong lasting"},{"startTime":3659.344,"endTime":3667.114,"body":"professional relationships with people"},{"startTime":3667.114,"endTime":3670.244,"body":"that you look up to and respect."},{"startTime":3670.874,"endTime":3674.384,"body":"I only have a couple in my"},{"startTime":3670.874,"endTime":3674.384,"body":"career, but they have been"},{"startTime":3674.444,"endTime":3676.754,"body":"absolutely invaluable to me."},{"startTime":3677.294,"endTime":3680.824,"body":"And now someone who is a close and"},{"startTime":3677.294,"endTime":3680.824,"body":"personal friend of mine, but someone"},{"startTime":3680.824,"endTime":3684.644,"body":"I worked at a large organization who"},{"startTime":3680.824,"endTime":3684.644,"body":"at that point was my leader and mentor"},{"startTime":3684.864,"endTime":3691.234,"body":"mm-hmm,  continues to be a mentor of"},{"startTime":3684.864,"endTime":3691.234,"body":"mine now, eight, almost 10 years later."},{"startTime":3691.574,"endTime":3694.584,"body":"but Francesca big and she's just been."},{"startTime":3695.269,"endTime":3696.859,"body":"Absolutely fantastic."},{"startTime":3696.859,"endTime":3702.309,"body":"And what a fantastic leader and somebody"},{"startTime":3696.859,"endTime":3702.309,"body":"I still will reach out to and go, Hey, am"},{"startTime":3702.309,"endTime":3704.089,"body":"I, am I going in the right direction here?"},{"startTime":3704.389,"endTime":3708.169,"body":"Yeah, I really so create those"},{"startTime":3704.389,"endTime":3708.169,"body":"relationships when you can"},{"startTime":3708.174,"endTime":3712.399,"body":"find them people that are true"},{"startTime":3708.174,"endTime":3712.399,"body":"leaders and not just managers."},{"startTime":3712.459,"endTime":3712.669,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3712.669,"endTime":3713.149,"body":"Awesome."},{"startTime":3713.329,"endTime":3714.919,"body":"Find them and develop those."}]}