{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":4.93,"body":"Ah,, listen, ah, Om, I'm gonna need you"},{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":4.93,"body":"to do some Gantt charts, Gantt charts."},{"startTime":5.109,"endTime":5.5,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":5.74,"endTime":8.71,"body":"I'm gonna need you to do a Gantt"},{"startTime":5.74,"endTime":8.71,"body":"chart because, we need to know what it"},{"startTime":8.71,"endTime":12.16,"body":"takes to get quote all the work done."},{"startTime":12.46,"endTime":13.48,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":13.48,"endTime":13.96,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":14.47,"endTime":18.76,"body":"I could give you a Gant chart that the"},{"startTime":14.47,"endTime":18.76,"body":"only thing it will guarantee is things"},{"startTime":18.76,"endTime":23.5,"body":"will happen on days that end in why, other"},{"startTime":18.76,"endTime":23.5,"body":"than that, I can't guarantee anything."},{"startTime":23.86,"endTime":27.16,"body":"You know, I feel you got a bad"},{"startTime":23.86,"endTime":27.16,"body":"attitude about that tune Gantt charts"},{"startTime":27.16,"endTime":29.65,"body":"for me, the agile project manager."},{"startTime":29.65,"endTime":31.93,"body":"I put agile in front of project manager."},{"startTime":32.17,"endTime":34.15,"body":"That means where agile."},{"startTime":34.269,"endTime":35.769,"body":"That means I gotta get"},{"startTime":34.269,"endTime":35.769,"body":"you a Gantt chart faster."},{"startTime":35.769,"endTime":38.71,"body":"That's right now, if I do"},{"startTime":35.769,"endTime":38.71,"body":"a Gantt chart, will you."},{"startTime":39.7,"endTime":41.26,"body":"Please take this the right way."},{"startTime":41.26,"endTime":42.58,"body":"Will you hold it against me?"},{"startTime":42.82,"endTime":45.97,"body":"Like, will you say, you said"},{"startTime":42.82,"endTime":45.97,"body":"home, something will be done by"},{"startTime":45.97,"endTime":50.395,"body":"July 31st and it's not listen,"},{"startTime":45.97,"endTime":50.395,"body":"it's like, , at the used car lot."},{"startTime":50.425,"endTime":52.315,"body":"You were the first person"},{"startTime":50.425,"endTime":52.315,"body":"to throw a number out."},{"startTime":52.735,"endTime":54.055,"body":"So, so I lose."},{"startTime":54.115,"endTime":54.745,"body":"Yeah, you lose."},{"startTime":54.805,"endTime":55.095,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":55.105,"endTime":55.495,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":55.585,"endTime":56.935,"body":"We're gonna throw it out or whatever."},{"startTime":56.935,"endTime":60.035,"body":"We're the last, I don't even know"},{"startTime":56.935,"endTime":60.035,"body":"how the rule works, but the point is"},{"startTime":60.535,"endTime":65.605,"body":"if you are in an organization and"},{"startTime":60.535,"endTime":65.605,"body":"there are traditionally a project"},{"startTime":65.61,"endTime":69.505,"body":"management led organization, cause I"},{"startTime":65.61,"endTime":69.505,"body":"don't know a better way to phrase that."},{"startTime":70.135,"endTime":75.535,"body":"then there's a high chance that you use"},{"startTime":70.135,"endTime":75.535,"body":"Gantt charts in your organization, or at"},{"startTime":75.535,"endTime":79.705,"body":"least at the leadership level they use GA"},{"startTime":75.535,"endTime":79.705,"body":"maybe your team never sees a Gantt chart,"},{"startTime":80.095,"endTime":82.315,"body":"but your leadership most certainly does."},{"startTime":82.735,"endTime":87.075,"body":"And, whatever panel that you"},{"startTime":82.735,"endTime":87.075,"body":"have at your organization that."},{"startTime":87.505,"endTime":90.775,"body":", gives the thumbs up or thumbs down"},{"startTime":87.505,"endTime":90.775,"body":"to projects before they start."},{"startTime":90.775,"endTime":94.615,"body":"Cuz again, if you're using Gantt"},{"startTime":90.775,"endTime":94.615,"body":"charts, high likelihood, you're"},{"startTime":94.62,"endTime":96.895,"body":"also using projects right?"},{"startTime":96.935,"endTime":102.355,"body":"To allocate funding to your software"},{"startTime":96.935,"endTime":102.355,"body":"efforts, you probably have to create Gantt"},{"startTime":102.385,"endTime":107.635,"body":"chart, do a certain amount of planning"},{"startTime":102.385,"endTime":107.635,"body":"and do some activities like that before"},{"startTime":107.635,"endTime":111.725,"body":"you're even allowed to start a project."},{"startTime":112.225,"endTime":113.125,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":113.125,"endTime":113.545,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":113.815,"endTime":118.515,"body":"I think a lot of times it stems from"},{"startTime":113.815,"endTime":118.515,"body":"the powers that be looking for some"},{"startTime":118.515,"endTime":123.125,"body":"sense of comfort, . They, they look at"},{"startTime":118.515,"endTime":123.125,"body":"that and they say, if you gimme a Gantt"},{"startTime":123.145,"endTime":128.275,"body":"chart, it gives me something to put on"},{"startTime":123.145,"endTime":128.275,"body":"a wall and talk to with my leadership."},{"startTime":128.365,"endTime":129.175,"body":"okay, fine."},{"startTime":129.18,"endTime":129.535,"body":"But."},{"startTime":129.97,"endTime":130.96,"body":"The it's your point?"},{"startTime":131.41,"endTime":135.49,"body":"The leadership is planning with Gantt"},{"startTime":131.41,"endTime":135.49,"body":"charts and the teams may not see them."},{"startTime":135.73,"endTime":141.77,"body":"So now you have a situation where the"},{"startTime":135.73,"endTime":141.77,"body":"planning's done up front, and the teams"},{"startTime":141.775,"endTime":144.92,"body":"are supposedly delivering in an agile way."},{"startTime":144.98,"endTime":146.57,"body":"How does that marry up together?"},{"startTime":146.93,"endTime":146.99,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":147.07,"endTime":149.53,"body":"I think expectations are a big thing here."},{"startTime":149.81,"endTime":153.14,"body":"So if leadership understands that"},{"startTime":149.81,"endTime":153.14,"body":"the Gantt charts are done at a given"},{"startTime":153.14,"endTime":156.44,"body":"point in time, so it's a snapshot"},{"startTime":153.14,"endTime":156.44,"body":"mm-hmm  and it's likely to change"},{"startTime":156.44,"endTime":158.03,"body":"if they admit to those two things."},{"startTime":158.39,"endTime":161.24,"body":"And then the last thing you"},{"startTime":158.39,"endTime":161.24,"body":"want them to kind of, relent  on"},{"startTime":161.245,"endTime":163.82,"body":"is these are not guarantees."},{"startTime":163.88,"endTime":167.57,"body":"When I put those little diamonds on"},{"startTime":163.88,"endTime":167.57,"body":"a Gantt chart, beating milestones"},{"startTime":168.02,"endTime":169.94,"body":"they're best faith estimates."},{"startTime":169.945,"endTime":171.2,"body":"We think this might happen."},{"startTime":171.2,"endTime":172.16,"body":"This might not happen."},{"startTime":172.22,"endTime":175.76,"body":"I mean, are they like  you bring us"},{"startTime":172.22,"endTime":175.76,"body":"into the purpose of this episode,"},{"startTime":175.76,"endTime":180.51,"body":"like we're gonna, it's arguing agile,"},{"startTime":175.76,"endTime":180.51,"body":", how to argue about Gantt charts,"},{"startTime":180.59,"endTime":182.81,"body":"welcome to the new framing of the podcast."},{"startTime":182.99,"endTime":183.08,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":183.13,"endTime":186.945,"body":"I change all the taglines for"},{"startTime":183.13,"endTime":186.945,"body":"all the podcasts across all the"},{"startTime":186.945,"endTime":191.98,"body":"podcast platforms to say, , we argue"},{"startTime":186.945,"endTime":191.98,"body":"about things , in the agile space"},{"startTime":191.98,"endTime":193.63,"body":"so that you don't have to right."},{"startTime":193.63,"endTime":194.26,"body":"They, , change that."},{"startTime":194.26,"endTime":194.35,"body":"Nice."},{"startTime":194.4,"endTime":198.1,"body":", and I feel like in an effort that"},{"startTime":194.4,"endTime":198.1,"body":"follows that branding, I'm not"},{"startTime":198.105,"endTime":199.299,"body":"gonna put you in the position."},{"startTime":199.45,"endTime":203.41,"body":"I'll do it on your behalf to be"},{"startTime":199.45,"endTime":203.41,"body":"the one that argues for Gantt"},{"startTime":203.41,"endTime":206.98,"body":"charts rather than against, I'm not"},{"startTime":203.41,"endTime":206.98,"body":"gonna put you through that trunk."},{"startTime":206.98,"endTime":208.09,"body":"I don't mind, honestly."},{"startTime":208.09,"endTime":210.369,"body":"Don't,  it wouldn't be the first time."},{"startTime":210.369,"endTime":214.499,"body":", no, no, cuz  if I were the"},{"startTime":210.369,"endTime":214.499,"body":"one arguing against Gantt."},{"startTime":214.999,"endTime":220.189,"body":"I feel like I would make an equally crappy"},{"startTime":214.999,"endTime":220.189,"body":"argument against them than for them."},{"startTime":220.249,"endTime":225.109,"body":"So I feel you, you should be the proper"},{"startTime":220.249,"endTime":225.109,"body":"one making the argument against them."},{"startTime":225.109,"endTime":226.369,"body":"So that, that's how we will."},{"startTime":226.639,"endTime":227.539,"body":"That's how we'll go."},{"startTime":227.539,"endTime":231.499,"body":"Point by point, arguing four"},{"startTime":227.539,"endTime":231.499,"body":"and against, we we'll try to"},{"startTime":231.499,"endTime":232.759,"body":"stick to that framework sure."},{"startTime":232.969,"endTime":233.809,"body":"For this podcast."},{"startTime":233.839,"endTime":237.529,"body":"And, and if it, if we don't"},{"startTime":233.839,"endTime":237.529,"body":"then Hey, you'll get all your"},{"startTime":237.529,"endTime":238.789,"body":"money's worth out of the podcast."},{"startTime":238.789,"endTime":239.479,"body":"Keep you in a seat."},{"startTime":239.539,"endTime":240.049,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":240.049,"endTime":240.199,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":240.199,"endTime":241.099,"body":"Keep your receipt."},{"startTime":241.599,"endTime":243.369,"body":"turn it into your corporate HR."},{"startTime":243.689,"endTime":245.789,"body":"Or HR, HR."},{"startTime":245.789,"endTime":248.569,"body":"So, , Gantt charts, why,"},{"startTime":245.789,"endTime":248.569,"body":"what is a Gantt chart?"},{"startTime":248.669,"endTime":250.919,"body":"Why does the industry use them?"},{"startTime":250.929,"endTime":251.949,"body":"Let's start there."},{"startTime":251.979,"endTime":253.149,"body":"That's an awesome question."},{"startTime":253.154,"endTime":258.129,"body":"A Gantt chart for those that don't"},{"startTime":253.154,"endTime":258.129,"body":"know, is really nothing more than a"},{"startTime":258.984,"endTime":265.464,"body":"description in a visual format of when"},{"startTime":258.984,"endTime":265.464,"body":"various components of your project"},{"startTime":266.094,"endTime":267.984,"body":"are anticipated to complete project."},{"startTime":268.104,"endTime":271.049,"body":"so let's say you are buying a car."},{"startTime":271.109,"endTime":274.319,"body":"For example, you might have a game chart"},{"startTime":271.109,"endTime":274.319,"body":"that says you're doing some research,"},{"startTime":274.679,"endTime":278.219,"body":"you're looking up the different car"},{"startTime":274.679,"endTime":278.219,"body":"manufacturers, models, et cetera,"},{"startTime":278.219,"endTime":281.429,"body":"that suit you need that there might"},{"startTime":278.219,"endTime":281.429,"body":"be some bullet points that you can"},{"startTime":281.429,"endTime":283.289,"body":"put down and say buy a certain time."},{"startTime":283.289,"endTime":286.529,"body":"I want those done all of your"},{"startTime":283.289,"endTime":286.529,"body":"research, all of your research."},{"startTime":286.529,"endTime":287.369,"body":"Yeah, that's right."},{"startTime":287.399,"endTime":288.329,"body":"All everything."},{"startTime":288.549,"endTime":292.869,"body":"so yeah, you, you put something down"},{"startTime":288.549,"endTime":292.869,"body":"on paper, virtual paper that says, if"},{"startTime":292.874,"endTime":297.39,"body":"I'm done doing my research by a certain"},{"startTime":292.874,"endTime":297.39,"body":"time, then I can go shopping for the car."},{"startTime":297.629,"endTime":302.34,"body":"And then you have another limit"},{"startTime":297.629,"endTime":302.34,"body":"a time by which you should be"},{"startTime":302.34,"endTime":303.39,"body":"finished with your shopping."},{"startTime":303.39,"endTime":308.045,"body":"So you can actually start negotiating"},{"startTime":303.39,"endTime":308.045,"body":"with car dealerships or wherever"},{"startTime":308.05,"endTime":309.125,"body":"you're buying your cars from."},{"startTime":309.545,"endTime":312.205,"body":", and, and then finally you might have so."},{"startTime":312.695,"endTime":316.475,"body":"On your Gantt chart that says"},{"startTime":312.695,"endTime":316.475,"body":"you actually buy the car, you"},{"startTime":316.475,"endTime":318.125,"body":"register it and that's it."},{"startTime":318.125,"endTime":321.465,"body":"That's the end result, there's"},{"startTime":318.125,"endTime":321.465,"body":"various different levels that you"},{"startTime":321.465,"endTime":324.344,"body":"can break this down at, but these"},{"startTime":321.465,"endTime":324.344,"body":"are just high level things that"},{"startTime":324.344,"endTime":325.905,"body":"you might have in this example."},{"startTime":326.205,"endTime":329.624,"body":"So Gantt chart is nothing more than"},{"startTime":326.205,"endTime":329.624,"body":"a projection of end anticipated"},{"startTime":329.624,"endTime":332.054,"body":"high level activities, right."},{"startTime":332.325,"endTime":334.064,"body":"That are put down."},{"startTime":334.184,"endTime":339.734,"body":"And then you project out some end times"},{"startTime":334.184,"endTime":339.734,"body":"for these activities along the way, you"},{"startTime":339.734,"endTime":343.994,"body":"would've some key activities, there are,"},{"startTime":339.734,"endTime":343.994,"body":"there's just, they look like any other"},{"startTime":343.994,"endTime":348.944,"body":"activity, except for the fact that they're"},{"startTime":343.994,"endTime":348.944,"body":"a point in time rather than a range."},{"startTime":348.974,"endTime":353.384,"body":"So starting my research ending,"},{"startTime":348.974,"endTime":353.384,"body":"my research is a range of time."},{"startTime":353.474,"endTime":356.714,"body":"It's a time block, whereas"},{"startTime":353.474,"endTime":356.714,"body":"registering my car."},{"startTime":357.214,"endTime":357.994,"body":"It's not a range."},{"startTime":357.994,"endTime":360.634,"body":"I don't start registering now"},{"startTime":357.994,"endTime":360.634,"body":"and then finish a few days later."},{"startTime":360.814,"endTime":361.684,"body":"I do it."},{"startTime":361.924,"endTime":362.224,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":362.224,"endTime":366.364,"body":"So that's one day on a day on"},{"startTime":362.224,"endTime":366.364,"body":"which you register your car,"},{"startTime":366.414,"endTime":369.794,"body":"so that becomes, what's known , in"},{"startTime":366.414,"endTime":369.794,"body":"the Gantt chart world as a milestone."},{"startTime":370.184,"endTime":373.335,"body":"And it's represented on this"},{"startTime":370.184,"endTime":373.335,"body":"chart as just a little diamond."},{"startTime":373.455,"endTime":373.544,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":373.574,"endTime":377.234,"body":"Typically, , you can have any shape,"},{"startTime":373.574,"endTime":377.234,"body":"so that's really what a GA chart is."},{"startTime":377.234,"endTime":380.504,"body":"It's a, it's a forward looking"},{"startTime":377.234,"endTime":380.504,"body":"projection of when you anticipate"},{"startTime":380.864,"endTime":382.334,"body":"activities to be completed."},{"startTime":382.364,"endTime":386.114,"body":"The last diamond in every get chart"},{"startTime":382.364,"endTime":386.114,"body":"is that's the end of the project."},{"startTime":386.384,"endTime":390.224,"body":"So in software development, it's"},{"startTime":386.384,"endTime":390.224,"body":"typically you're building a new product."},{"startTime":390.494,"endTime":393.914,"body":"It's a product launch or go live,"},{"startTime":390.494,"endTime":393.914,"body":"or however you wanna phrase that."},{"startTime":394.544,"endTime":394.604,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":394.604,"endTime":397.694,"body":"Well, I've been on projects"},{"startTime":394.604,"endTime":397.694,"body":"with Gant charts that go into an"},{"startTime":397.694,"endTime":401.184,"body":"aftercare, hypercare, whatever"},{"startTime":397.694,"endTime":401.184,"body":"you wanna call it, daycare."},{"startTime":401.284,"endTime":402.214,"body":"You could definitely do that."},{"startTime":402.219,"endTime":402.274,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":402.274,"endTime":404.374,"body":"I mean, after so yeah, maybe"},{"startTime":402.274,"endTime":404.374,"body":"I should take that back."},{"startTime":404.555,"endTime":405.604,"body":"It's not the last."},{"startTime":406.009,"endTime":408.709,"body":"Milestone on your G chart that"},{"startTime":406.009,"endTime":408.709,"body":"says you go, you went live, you"},{"startTime":408.709,"endTime":410.299,"body":"might have a period of warranty."},{"startTime":410.349,"endTime":411.429,"body":", and you can put that on."},{"startTime":411.729,"endTime":415.749,"body":"And there's typically a fixed"},{"startTime":411.729,"endTime":415.749,"body":"duration on that maybe three months"},{"startTime":415.749,"endTime":417.369,"body":"after the product is launched."},{"startTime":417.399,"endTime":420.639,"body":"Mm-hmm  that the development"},{"startTime":417.399,"endTime":420.639,"body":"team is handholding the product"},{"startTime":420.729,"endTime":422.499,"body":"it's negotiated with your vendor."},{"startTime":422.499,"endTime":424.209,"body":"Usually if you're absolutely contracting."},{"startTime":424.209,"endTime":424.959,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":425.289,"endTime":426.009,"body":"You can do that."},{"startTime":426.009,"endTime":426.249,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":426.249,"endTime":426.729,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":426.729,"endTime":430.329,"body":"And then the, in that example, right,"},{"startTime":426.729,"endTime":430.329,"body":"the last one would be when you turn it"},{"startTime":430.329,"endTime":435.219,"body":"over to perhaps another team within your"},{"startTime":430.329,"endTime":435.219,"body":"organization, that's, , handling that on."},{"startTime":435.549,"endTime":438.399,"body":"Maybe it's an operations"},{"startTime":435.549,"endTime":438.399,"body":"or maintenance or support."},{"startTime":438.879,"endTime":441.699,"body":"Yeah,  I wanted to go back on"},{"startTime":438.879,"endTime":441.699,"body":"something that you said, but I also,"},{"startTime":441.699,"endTime":443.019,"body":"forgot what we were talking about."},{"startTime":443.109,"endTime":445.319,"body":"Gantt charts  is like looking"},{"startTime":443.109,"endTime":445.319,"body":"at an auto accident where"},{"startTime":445.319,"endTime":446.489,"body":"there's fatalities involved."},{"startTime":446.489,"endTime":449.759,"body":"I look at it, it was interesting"},{"startTime":446.489,"endTime":449.759,"body":"guys, you can stop looking at it."},{"startTime":449.764,"endTime":452.939,"body":"And I can't like, I can't stop looking at"},{"startTime":449.764,"endTime":452.939,"body":"it, but also like, I'm like, oh God, why?"},{"startTime":452.939,"endTime":453.479,"body":"Why?"},{"startTime":453.529,"endTime":460.029,"body":"I wanted to look at this topic"},{"startTime":453.529,"endTime":460.029,"body":"from the perspective of companies"},{"startTime":460.089,"endTime":464.249,"body":"that say that they're doing"},{"startTime":460.089,"endTime":464.249,"body":"agile development, but still."},{"startTime":464.864,"endTime":471.974,"body":"Claim that they want Gantt charts"},{"startTime":464.864,"endTime":471.974,"body":"because the two seem to be incompatible."},{"startTime":472.574,"endTime":474.104,"body":"So yeah, I think that's"},{"startTime":472.574,"endTime":474.104,"body":"a really good point."},{"startTime":474.109,"endTime":476.984,"body":"And maybe we can just step back"},{"startTime":474.109,"endTime":476.984,"body":"a shade and just talk about"},{"startTime":476.984,"endTime":478.334,"body":"where these things came from."},{"startTime":478.694,"endTime":478.904,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":478.904,"endTime":482.534,"body":"Gantt charts are named that way after"},{"startTime":478.904,"endTime":482.534,"body":"the inventor of these things, right."},{"startTime":482.744,"endTime":487.754,"body":"Henry Gant, Henry Gant came"},{"startTime":482.744,"endTime":487.754,"body":"up with this back in goodness."},{"startTime":488.024,"endTime":488.714,"body":"A long time ago."},{"startTime":488.724,"endTime":495.024,"body":"So think about that timeframe early"},{"startTime":488.724,"endTime":495.024,"body":"20th century, it was hardly any, none,"},{"startTime":495.054,"endTime":496.614,"body":"no software being written back then."},{"startTime":496.854,"endTime":500.939,"body":"So when, when, , Henry Garrett came up"},{"startTime":496.854,"endTime":500.939,"body":"with this, it was to reflect processes"},{"startTime":500.939,"endTime":503.279,"body":"that were completely predictable."},{"startTime":503.459,"endTime":503.819,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":504.119,"endTime":508.109,"body":"For example, manufacturing"},{"startTime":504.119,"endTime":508.109,"body":"is fairly predictable."},{"startTime":508.379,"endTime":511.799,"body":"And so he came up with"},{"startTime":508.379,"endTime":511.799,"body":"it with the right intent."},{"startTime":512.339,"endTime":514.619,"body":"To say, here's what we can plan."},{"startTime":514.799,"endTime":517.529,"body":"We can make a short term"},{"startTime":514.799,"endTime":517.529,"body":"plan this month, right?"},{"startTime":517.529,"endTime":520.629,"body":"Medium term this month at the end"},{"startTime":517.529,"endTime":520.629,"body":"of this month, , maybe I don't know,"},{"startTime":521.019,"endTime":522.369,"body":"four, three months, six months out."},{"startTime":522.459,"endTime":523.299,"body":"Mm-hmm,  take your pay."},{"startTime":523.639,"endTime":525.979,"body":"and then the next level he can do that."},{"startTime":526.479,"endTime":532.779,"body":"What he did not do is he did not build"},{"startTime":526.479,"endTime":532.779,"body":"in the idea that, and, and this applies,"},{"startTime":532.779,"endTime":537.339,"body":"regardless of whether it was software"},{"startTime":532.779,"endTime":537.339,"body":"or non software, basically when he"},{"startTime":537.339,"endTime":538.839,"body":"came up with it, it was, this is it."},{"startTime":538.869,"endTime":540.189,"body":"This is how you're gonna do things."},{"startTime":540.339,"endTime":542.589,"body":"And if you didn't stick to the"},{"startTime":540.339,"endTime":542.589,"body":"plan, you were off the plan."},{"startTime":543.009,"endTime":543.099,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":543.209,"endTime":546.579,"body":"so that's a bit of history"},{"startTime":543.209,"endTime":546.579,"body":"behind where it came from now."},{"startTime":546.579,"endTime":551.649,"body":"Well, that, that would be so, I'd be"},{"startTime":546.579,"endTime":551.649,"body":"remiss if I didn't mention it's because"},{"startTime":552.149,"endTime":557.999,"body":"Henry Gant at that point was working"},{"startTime":552.149,"endTime":557.999,"body":"as an understudy or, he was working"},{"startTime":557.999,"endTime":561.429,"body":"alongside of, Taylor at this point."},{"startTime":562.269,"endTime":569.434,"body":"And he was specifically studying , the"},{"startTime":562.269,"endTime":569.434,"body":"time clerk role of Taylor's operation."},{"startTime":569.934,"endTime":574.494,"body":"So he was dealing with a very small"},{"startTime":569.934,"endTime":574.494,"body":"piece of the operation, right."},{"startTime":574.774,"endTime":579.059,"body":"in the managing of the, the factory"},{"startTime":574.774,"endTime":579.059,"body":"workers and the, the manual labor is"},{"startTime":579.059,"endTime":583.385,"body":"basically sorry, I forgot going with"},{"startTime":579.059,"endTime":583.385,"body":"that, but the point of me breaking in was"},{"startTime":583.39,"endTime":588.694,"body":"to say like the, the, the management of"},{"startTime":583.39,"endTime":588.694,"body":"how long it takes to do every individual"},{"startTime":588.694,"endTime":594.074,"body":"task was just, a smaller piece of all"},{"startTime":588.694,"endTime":594.074,"body":"of this operation that was happening."},{"startTime":594.074,"endTime":594.614,"body":"All, all."},{"startTime":595.319,"endTime":598.349,"body":"Professional management"},{"startTime":595.319,"endTime":598.349,"body":"that was happening."},{"startTime":599.009,"endTime":599.249,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":599.509,"endTime":600.559,"body":"On this podcast."},{"startTime":600.559,"endTime":605.339,"body":"I'd like to be in the position of"},{"startTime":600.559,"endTime":605.339,"body":"supporting, , one side of the discussion."},{"startTime":605.389,"endTime":610.099,"body":"I want to push myself to try to"},{"startTime":605.389,"endTime":610.099,"body":"support the side of the Gantt chart,"},{"startTime":610.789,"endTime":614.959,"body":"but also I realize that the Gantt"},{"startTime":610.789,"endTime":614.959,"body":"chart can't just live in isolation in"},{"startTime":614.959,"endTime":619.669,"body":"and of itself, if you're ignoring the"},{"startTime":614.959,"endTime":619.669,"body":"management of all the other aspects."},{"startTime":620.029,"endTime":623.529,"body":"Cause the idea is you've put"},{"startTime":620.029,"endTime":623.529,"body":"in time to study how long it"},{"startTime":623.529,"endTime":625.509,"body":"takes to do each individual job."},{"startTime":626.169,"endTime":628.419,"body":"And that the Gantt chart is built."},{"startTime":628.719,"endTime":635.289,"body":"Henry Gant time chart is built off"},{"startTime":628.719,"endTime":635.289,"body":"of your expert, understanding of how"},{"startTime":635.289,"endTime":637.509,"body":"long it takes to do every single job."},{"startTime":638.289,"endTime":641.769,"body":"If you don't understand how long"},{"startTime":638.289,"endTime":641.769,"body":"it takes to do every job  or you"},{"startTime":641.769,"endTime":643.809,"body":"have not done the work to figure."},{"startTime":644.309,"endTime":647.369,"body":"The research to figure out how"},{"startTime":644.309,"endTime":647.369,"body":"long it takes to do every job."},{"startTime":647.869,"endTime":651.499,"body":"You're not gonna be able to build an"},{"startTime":647.869,"endTime":651.499,"body":"appropriate Henry Gant chart cuz you"},{"startTime":651.499,"endTime":656.989,"body":"don't, you, you not put in the work to do"},{"startTime":651.499,"endTime":656.989,"body":"the research, which brings us to a very"},{"startTime":656.989,"endTime":663.069,"body":"quintessential soul searching problem"},{"startTime":656.989,"endTime":663.069,"body":"of, can you build a Gantt chart for a"},{"startTime":663.069,"endTime":667.479,"body":"task, which is unknown to you, you know?"},{"startTime":667.479,"endTime":667.569,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":667.599,"endTime":672.199,"body":"Can you include items in that"},{"startTime":667.599,"endTime":672.199,"body":"Gantt chart, that you are not"},{"startTime":672.199,"endTime":676.639,"body":"sure that you're not aware how"},{"startTime":672.199,"endTime":676.639,"body":"long they truly are going to take."},{"startTime":676.669,"endTime":680.78,"body":"And I have to ask you, since I'm in"},{"startTime":676.669,"endTime":680.78,"body":"the role of supporting the, the, the"},{"startTime":680.78,"endTime":686.9,"body":"deviations of the Gantt chart, the CPM,"},{"startTime":680.78,"endTime":686.9,"body":"the PERT, the different types of charts"},{"startTime":686.905,"endTime":690.54,"body":"that are out there that are deviations"},{"startTime":686.905,"endTime":690.54,"body":"of the Gantt charts, do any of those."},{"startTime":691.53,"endTime":693.54,"body":"Take into account what I'm"},{"startTime":691.53,"endTime":693.54,"body":"talking about, where you're not"},{"startTime":693.54,"endTime":695.16,"body":"exactly sure how long it takes."},{"startTime":695.66,"endTime":700.4,"body":"So short answer is they absolutely do"},{"startTime":695.66,"endTime":700.4,"body":"not; they do not take that into account."},{"startTime":700.43,"endTime":705.53,"body":"They only cater for the known can't"},{"startTime":700.43,"endTime":705.53,"body":"charts live in the world that is known."},{"startTime":705.89,"endTime":708.47,"body":"But I wanted to just briefly"},{"startTime":705.89,"endTime":708.47,"body":"unpack what you just said,"},{"startTime":708.47,"endTime":711.03,"body":"which is you have to be able to."},{"startTime":711.53,"endTime":715.67,"body":"no exactly how, what, how long"},{"startTime":711.53,"endTime":715.67,"body":"everything's going to take."},{"startTime":715.67,"endTime":715.88,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":715.9,"endTime":716.84,"body":"Mm-hmm  and that's, that's true."},{"startTime":716.84,"endTime":722.48,"body":"If you're building a proper grant chart,"},{"startTime":716.84,"endTime":722.48,"body":"the difficulty there is how do you know?"},{"startTime":722.48,"endTime":725.12,"body":"So when you go and ask,"},{"startTime":722.48,"endTime":725.12,"body":"right, you go and ask people."},{"startTime":725.125,"endTime":727.67,"body":"If you're not the expert,"},{"startTime":725.125,"endTime":727.67,"body":"who's actually building this."},{"startTime":727.88,"endTime":731.0,"body":"You ask people that do this for"},{"startTime":727.88,"endTime":731.0,"body":"a living mm-hmm . So if you do"},{"startTime":731.0,"endTime":732.92,"body":"that, you might get an answer."},{"startTime":733.07,"endTime":734.18,"body":"You might get many answers."},{"startTime":734.18,"endTime":736.97,"body":"If you ask many people and that's"},{"startTime":734.18,"endTime":736.97,"body":"where I'm going with this to,"},{"startTime":737.29,"endTime":739.04,"body":"to have an activity completed."},{"startTime":739.22,"endTime":742.73,"body":"If you ask somebody who's been"},{"startTime":739.22,"endTime":742.73,"body":"doing it for 20 years, 30 years,"},{"startTime":742.94,"endTime":745.01,"body":"you'll get an answer, call that \"a.\""},{"startTime":745.22,"endTime":748.07,"body":"You ask someone who's been"},{"startTime":745.22,"endTime":748.07,"body":"doing it for five years."},{"startTime":748.43,"endTime":752.18,"body":"You'll get another answer, which is gonna"},{"startTime":748.43,"endTime":752.18,"body":"be different than a let's call that \"b.\"."},{"startTime":752.45,"endTime":754.31,"body":"And then you ask somebody"},{"startTime":752.45,"endTime":754.31,"body":"who started last week."},{"startTime":754.48,"endTime":758.2,"body":"you're gonna get C now, which"},{"startTime":754.48,"endTime":758.2,"body":"is the right answer here."},{"startTime":758.44,"endTime":759.31,"body":"A, B or C."},{"startTime":759.64,"endTime":764.77,"body":"And Henry Gant, when he came up with"},{"startTime":759.64,"endTime":764.77,"body":"it originally this whole concept of, of"},{"startTime":764.77,"endTime":766.84,"body":"Gantt charts, he didn't build that in."},{"startTime":766.9,"endTime":767.71,"body":"He didn't build that in no."},{"startTime":767.71,"endTime":768.01,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":768.13,"endTime":769.03,"body":"It evolved."},{"startTime":769.03,"endTime":770.53,"body":"However, over time"},{"startTime":770.53,"endTime":773.44,"body":"they did scientific studies"},{"startTime":770.53,"endTime":773.44,"body":"of people doing manual labor."},{"startTime":773.44,"endTime":774.85,"body":"And that that's how they figured it out."},{"startTime":774.85,"endTime":776.41,"body":"They, they did a lot of studies."},{"startTime":776.66,"endTime":780.965,"body":"One tends  to think if I were to do"},{"startTime":776.66,"endTime":780.965,"body":"a broad study of software development"},{"startTime":781.465,"endTime":786.495,"body":"and let's say for example, , your"},{"startTime":781.465,"endTime":786.495,"body":"software development team, , was engaged"},{"startTime":786.495,"endTime":789.615,"body":"in activities and I could split your"},{"startTime":786.495,"endTime":789.615,"body":"activities between two categories."},{"startTime":789.885,"endTime":793.485,"body":"The category number one is things"},{"startTime":789.885,"endTime":793.485,"body":"that your team has a skill to do."},{"startTime":794.115,"endTime":797.164,"body":"Let's say you're building a"},{"startTime":794.115,"endTime":797.164,"body":"web applications in, react"},{"startTime":797.164,"endTime":798.904,"body":"front end C plus plus back end."},{"startTime":798.995,"endTime":799.144,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":799.745,"endTime":802.174,"body":"Well worn industry standard type of stuff."},{"startTime":802.745,"endTime":803.045,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":803.104,"endTime":807.775,"body":"I, I give you, I give you Hey, we gotta"},{"startTime":803.104,"endTime":807.775,"body":"take our, our, our web application"},{"startTime":807.775,"endTime":809.245,"body":"and we gotta add these features."},{"startTime":809.515,"endTime":814.035,"body":"They're either,  C plus plus,"},{"startTime":809.515,"endTime":814.035,"body":"backend type features or they're,"},{"startTime":814.035,"endTime":815.685,"body":"react widgets for front end."},{"startTime":815.735,"endTime":816.455,"body":"And okay."},{"startTime":816.455,"endTime":819.275,"body":"Well, it's all stuff that our"},{"startTime":816.455,"endTime":819.275,"body":"team's worked on before it's"},{"startTime":819.275,"endTime":820.145,"body":"in the current code base."},{"startTime":820.145,"endTime":820.835,"body":"No problem."},{"startTime":821.225,"endTime":823.835,"body":"You probably could compare those"},{"startTime":821.225,"endTime":823.835,"body":"features to things you've done"},{"startTime":823.835,"endTime":826.595,"body":"before and come up with a good"},{"startTime":823.835,"endTime":826.595,"body":"estimate of how long it would take."},{"startTime":826.685,"endTime":827.795,"body":"And then I would tell your team."},{"startTime":827.795,"endTime":828.545,"body":"Okay, cool."},{"startTime":828.605,"endTime":829.145,"body":"That's great."},{"startTime":829.305,"endTime":834.945,"body":", now, now I want to , work"},{"startTime":829.305,"endTime":834.945,"body":"with this completely new."},{"startTime":835.695,"endTime":839.745,"body":"Web application that you've never worked"},{"startTime":835.695,"endTime":839.745,"body":"with before brand new code, brand new"},{"startTime":839.745,"endTime":845.005,"body":"server, the equivalent would be moving"},{"startTime":839.745,"endTime":845.005,"body":"you from like you work in, , the Azure"},{"startTime":845.005,"endTime":850.164,"body":"cloud and now I'm gonna migrate my"},{"startTime":845.005,"endTime":850.164,"body":"Azure cloud stuff, all the data, the"},{"startTime":850.164,"endTime":851.724,"body":"application, the backend, everything."},{"startTime":851.904,"endTime":855.295,"body":"And I want to see if I can do this in AWS."},{"startTime":855.924,"endTime":856.134,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":856.164,"endTime":857.394,"body":"Completely different."},{"startTime":857.904,"endTime":864.434,"body":"So, now your team has to go learn"},{"startTime":857.904,"endTime":864.434,"body":"the whole AWS stack, the whole stack."},{"startTime":864.434,"endTime":866.534,"body":"They have to learn"},{"startTime":864.434,"endTime":866.534,"body":"everything different, right?"},{"startTime":866.634,"endTime":871.434,"body":"all of the knowns where you could"},{"startTime":866.634,"endTime":871.434,"body":"estimate they all now break down"},{"startTime":872.154,"endTime":874.164,"body":"and you're in uncharted territory."},{"startTime":874.494,"endTime":876.654,"body":"So you have to have a period"},{"startTime":874.494,"endTime":876.654,"body":"of time where you allow your"},{"startTime":876.654,"endTime":878.964,"body":"team to learn new capabilities."},{"startTime":879.464,"endTime":882.584,"body":"I'm the only reason I'm bringing"},{"startTime":879.464,"endTime":882.584,"body":"this up is because now I'm in the"},{"startTime":882.584,"endTime":885.334,"body":"vein of arguing for the Gantt chart."},{"startTime":885.621,"endTime":887.511,"body":"Is there a period of time?"},{"startTime":887.631,"endTime":892.851,"body":"I could give my team to learn"},{"startTime":887.631,"endTime":892.851,"body":"something new, say, Hey, I'm"},{"startTime":892.851,"endTime":894.681,"body":"gonna give my team a month."},{"startTime":894.761,"endTime":899.621,"body":"Because we, as an organization have"},{"startTime":894.761,"endTime":899.621,"body":"decided to migrate off of the Azure cloud."},{"startTime":899.671,"endTime":901.531,"body":"It might not even be the Azure cloud."},{"startTime":901.536,"endTime":905.701,"body":"It might be that we are a.net"},{"startTime":901.536,"endTime":905.701,"body":"in-house shop with in-house servers."},{"startTime":905.821,"endTime":905.941,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":905.981,"endTime":908.711,"body":"we have a rack of servers"},{"startTime":905.981,"endTime":908.711,"body":"in our data center."},{"startTime":909.131,"endTime":911.201,"body":"We're gonna get rid of those"},{"startTime":909.131,"endTime":911.201,"body":"servers in our data center."},{"startTime":911.201,"endTime":914.651,"body":"We're gonna migrate up and"},{"startTime":911.201,"endTime":914.651,"body":"we've chosen AWS as a vendor."},{"startTime":915.191,"endTime":915.521,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":915.551,"endTime":917.621,"body":"That's the situation I'm proposing now."},{"startTime":917.891,"endTime":918.161,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":918.431,"endTime":922.451,"body":"So we are gonna migrate out of an"},{"startTime":918.431,"endTime":922.451,"body":"in-house architecture and we're"},{"startTime":922.481,"endTime":923.831,"body":"gonna migrate to use the cloud."},{"startTime":924.161,"endTime":925.481,"body":"All AWS, everything."},{"startTime":925.981,"endTime":927.121,"body":"All gold all the time."},{"startTime":927.371,"endTime":928.601,"body":"Yeah, bling forever."},{"startTime":929.101,"endTime":935.791,"body":"So in my Gantt chart, I'm gonna give"},{"startTime":929.101,"endTime":935.791,"body":"a period of time to skill the team"},{"startTime":935.791,"endTime":937.981,"body":"up, to work in the new architecture."},{"startTime":938.481,"endTime":939.141,"body":"Yeah, for sure."},{"startTime":939.146,"endTime":941.481,"body":"And that just becomes an"},{"startTime":939.146,"endTime":941.481,"body":"activity on your GT chart."},{"startTime":941.481,"endTime":943.611,"body":"It becomes a capability, a training time."},{"startTime":943.611,"endTime":945.921,"body":"Basically it becomes training"},{"startTime":943.611,"endTime":945.921,"body":"time on my Gantt chart."},{"startTime":946.041,"endTime":946.611,"body":"It does."},{"startTime":946.611,"endTime":947.541,"body":"It really does."},{"startTime":947.671,"endTime":950.041,"body":"I think I'm glad you brought that"},{"startTime":947.671,"endTime":950.041,"body":"up because I think where, where"},{"startTime":950.041,"endTime":953.671,"body":"this is kind of highlighting things"},{"startTime":950.041,"endTime":953.671,"body":"is in your example, there was a"},{"startTime":953.671,"endTime":955.621,"body":"skill set that's needed, right."},{"startTime":955.621,"endTime":958.661,"body":"That needs to be, , procured"},{"startTime":955.621,"endTime":958.661,"body":"on the team, so to speak."},{"startTime":958.661,"endTime":960.191,"body":"So yeah, you add that as an activity."},{"startTime":960.611,"endTime":966.251,"body":"When Henry Gantt came up with that, it was"},{"startTime":960.611,"endTime":966.251,"body":"just literally just all these activities."},{"startTime":966.251,"endTime":967.391,"body":"One through end, right."},{"startTime":967.481,"endTime":973.301,"body":"And various times when they should"},{"startTime":967.481,"endTime":973.301,"body":"happen and much, much later it was."},{"startTime":974.126,"endTime":975.206,"body":"I forget the name."},{"startTime":975.386,"endTime":979.016,"body":"I don't even know if it was one person"},{"startTime":975.386,"endTime":979.016,"body":"that came up with it, but the concept"},{"startTime":979.016,"endTime":983.346,"body":"of dependencies was brought in, it's"},{"startTime":979.016,"endTime":983.346,"body":"a natural evolution to looking at"},{"startTime":983.346,"endTime":987.306,"body":"something like a GA chart to say,"},{"startTime":983.346,"endTime":987.306,"body":"yes, we forecast this, this line."},{"startTime":987.666,"endTime":988.326,"body":"It's yay."},{"startTime":988.326,"endTime":988.776,"body":"Long."},{"startTime":988.986,"endTime":992.526,"body":"It's supposed to finish here, but"},{"startTime":988.986,"endTime":992.526,"body":"down here we have something that"},{"startTime":992.526,"endTime":994.246,"body":"cannot start until this is finished."},{"startTime":994.386,"endTime":994.656,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":994.746,"endTime":996.336,"body":"So they linked the two up."},{"startTime":996.426,"endTime":996.636,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":996.666,"endTime":996.936,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":996.936,"endTime":1000.806,"body":"And then this is a great example"},{"startTime":996.936,"endTime":1000.806,"body":"because you can't start your AWS"},{"startTime":1000.806,"endTime":1004.766,"body":"development, your migration or whatever"},{"startTime":1000.806,"endTime":1004.766,"body":"until your team has the skills of"},{"startTime":1004.766,"endTime":1007.256,"body":"operating in the AWS architecture."},{"startTime":1007.346,"endTime":1007.526,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1007.526,"endTime":1008.816,"body":"So this, this is a great example."},{"startTime":1008.816,"endTime":1011.816,"body":"your Gant chart will stop at"},{"startTime":1008.816,"endTime":1011.816,"body":"a point where your team has"},{"startTime":1011.816,"endTime":1014.066,"body":"gained, quote, all the skills."},{"startTime":1014.066,"endTime":1017.416,"body":"I realize it's a bit unrealistic,"},{"startTime":1014.066,"endTime":1017.416,"body":"has gained all the skills."},{"startTime":1017.916,"endTime":1021.516,"body":"And then you can start your"},{"startTime":1017.916,"endTime":1021.516,"body":"next phase of actually migrate"},{"startTime":1021.666,"endTime":1023.496,"body":"my stuff to the AWS cloud."},{"startTime":1023.496,"endTime":1025.476,"body":"Cuz now the team has all"},{"startTime":1023.496,"endTime":1025.476,"body":"the skills they need."},{"startTime":1025.716,"endTime":1029.856,"body":"They've taken a two week period four week"},{"startTime":1025.716,"endTime":1029.856,"body":"period, whatever the period it is, right."},{"startTime":1029.946,"endTime":1033.216,"body":"To skill up in the environment"},{"startTime":1029.946,"endTime":1033.216,"body":"and to learn things."},{"startTime":1033.586,"endTime":1039.381,"body":"So there, there, you can't start section"},{"startTime":1033.586,"endTime":1039.381,"body":"B until section a is complete, you can't,"},{"startTime":1039.471,"endTime":1047.411,"body":"can't start section C until sections B and"},{"startTime":1039.471,"endTime":1047.411,"body":"a are complete that is the typical Gantt"},{"startTime":1047.411,"endTime":1052.991,"body":"chart, that we think of mm-hmm  and, and"},{"startTime":1047.411,"endTime":1052.991,"body":"like not to introduce another term, but"},{"startTime":1052.991,"endTime":1057.581,"body":"here we go, that would be the, the normal"},{"startTime":1052.991,"endTime":1057.581,"body":"critical path of a Gantt chart these are"},{"startTime":1057.581,"endTime":1059.741,"body":"the absolute things that have to happen."},{"startTime":1060.491,"endTime":1062.621,"body":"In order and everything"},{"startTime":1060.491,"endTime":1062.621,"body":"else is added on to that."},{"startTime":1062.621,"endTime":1067.021,"body":"But if these things don't happen,"},{"startTime":1062.621,"endTime":1067.021,"body":"it's going to change the timeline"},{"startTime":1067.291,"endTime":1071.611,"body":"for everything that comes before"},{"startTime":1067.291,"endTime":1071.611,"body":"and after if these things don't"},{"startTime":1071.611,"endTime":1074.371,"body":"happen as prescribed on the chart."},{"startTime":1074.911,"endTime":1075.091,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1075.091,"endTime":1075.631,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1075.636,"endTime":1076.291,"body":"Spot on him."},{"startTime":1076.291,"endTime":1079.921,"body":"And the critical path is really"},{"startTime":1076.291,"endTime":1079.921,"body":"showing you the shortest path"},{"startTime":1079.921,"endTime":1081.391,"body":"to completion for the project."},{"startTime":1081.391,"endTime":1081.691,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1081.751,"endTime":1082.071,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1082.076,"endTime":1085.801,"body":"So anything that slides or"},{"startTime":1082.076,"endTime":1085.801,"body":"delays, even if it's a short delay"},{"startTime":1086.221,"endTime":1088.291,"body":"will impact the critical path."},{"startTime":1088.321,"endTime":1092.281,"body":"If that activity that's being delayed"},{"startTime":1088.321,"endTime":1092.281,"body":"was on that path to begin with mm-hmm"},{"startTime":1092.521,"endTime":1094.201,"body":"some activities are not on that path."},{"startTime":1094.441,"endTime":1094.771,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1094.771,"endTime":1095.371,"body":"quite often."},{"startTime":1095.661,"endTime":1098.811,"body":", but yeah, so dependencies were"},{"startTime":1095.661,"endTime":1098.811,"body":"brought into this, this model of"},{"startTime":1098.921,"endTime":1100.541,"body":"creating a game chart at that point."},{"startTime":1100.841,"endTime":1100.901,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1101.151,"endTime":1106.176,"body":", and then later on, again, sometime"},{"startTime":1101.151,"endTime":1106.176,"body":"later they were evolved into"},{"startTime":1106.236,"endTime":1107.676,"body":"different types of dependency."},{"startTime":1107.946,"endTime":1111.696,"body":"Like this cannot start before"},{"startTime":1107.946,"endTime":1111.696,"body":"this finishes or this must start"},{"startTime":1111.696,"endTime":1113.076,"body":"when this other thing starts."},{"startTime":1113.421,"endTime":1115.131,"body":"Regardless of when they"},{"startTime":1113.421,"endTime":1115.131,"body":"each finish, right?"},{"startTime":1115.131,"endTime":1115.191,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1115.221,"endTime":1116.061,"body":"Different types, right."},{"startTime":1116.061,"endTime":1118.881,"body":"Finish to finish, finish to"},{"startTime":1116.061,"endTime":1118.881,"body":"start, start to start, et cetera."},{"startTime":1118.911,"endTime":1118.971,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1119.061,"endTime":1120.261,"body":"All these different things came about."},{"startTime":1120.681,"endTime":1124.791,"body":"But , for many decades,"},{"startTime":1120.681,"endTime":1124.791,"body":"nothing changed fundamentally."},{"startTime":1124.791,"endTime":1124.851,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1124.881,"endTime":1126.111,"body":"Right around a Gantt chart."},{"startTime":1126.711,"endTime":1130.281,"body":", much, much later people realized"},{"startTime":1126.711,"endTime":1130.281,"body":"that it's, it's fine and dandy  to"},{"startTime":1130.281,"endTime":1132.921,"body":"have a Gantt  chart, at least"},{"startTime":1130.281,"endTime":1132.921,"body":"it gives you something, right."},{"startTime":1132.951,"endTime":1138.701,"body":"It's a plan kind of makes people feel"},{"startTime":1132.951,"endTime":1138.701,"body":"comfortable with the end date in mind that"},{"startTime":1138.881,"endTime":1143.851,"body":"we might make it even though everybody"},{"startTime":1138.881,"endTime":1143.851,"body":"recognizes that there's slim to chance of"},{"startTime":1143.856,"endTime":1147.861,"body":"nailing that date, but we might fall in"},{"startTime":1143.856,"endTime":1147.861,"body":"the ballpark or that's what their hope is."},{"startTime":1147.941,"endTime":1153.721,"body":"So after many years people realize"},{"startTime":1147.941,"endTime":1153.721,"body":"that is really not prudent because"},{"startTime":1153.871,"endTime":1157.891,"body":"if you learn early on that, you're"},{"startTime":1153.871,"endTime":1157.891,"body":"not on track with that Gantt chart."},{"startTime":1158.431,"endTime":1162.031,"body":"So let's say for example, you have"},{"startTime":1158.431,"endTime":1162.031,"body":"activities a through Z you're at C."},{"startTime":1162.541,"endTime":1166.471,"body":"And you already know that the planned"},{"startTime":1162.541,"endTime":1166.471,"body":"C duration is going to be longer."},{"startTime":1166.711,"endTime":1169.621,"body":"Cuz something happened, whatever happened,"},{"startTime":1166.711,"endTime":1169.621,"body":"it could be anything, it could be"},{"startTime":1169.621,"endTime":1173.011,"body":"external things and new regulation came"},{"startTime":1169.621,"endTime":1173.011,"body":"out that you aren't expecting whatever."},{"startTime":1173.371,"endTime":1173.431,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1173.461,"endTime":1173.671,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1173.671,"endTime":1174.901,"body":"So it's gonna take longer."},{"startTime":1174.931,"endTime":1178.351,"body":"Well, you know that everything's"},{"startTime":1174.931,"endTime":1178.351,"body":"gonna ripple out and the end result"},{"startTime":1178.356,"endTime":1180.121,"body":"will be longer the end, the end one."},{"startTime":1180.451,"endTime":1185.221,"body":"So why wait till the end and say, well"},{"startTime":1180.451,"endTime":1185.221,"body":"it's because of C why not adjust it?"},{"startTime":1185.221,"endTime":1189.361,"body":"Now that concept came into"},{"startTime":1185.221,"endTime":1189.361,"body":"being, so people started saying,"},{"startTime":1189.361,"endTime":1191.701,"body":"well, if you adjusted it, we"},{"startTime":1189.361,"endTime":1191.701,"body":"won't know where we started."},{"startTime":1192.211,"endTime":1192.481,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1192.721,"endTime":1195.001,"body":"Well, what was adjusted"},{"startTime":1192.721,"endTime":1195.001,"body":"over a period of time?"},{"startTime":1195.001,"endTime":1197.551,"body":"How many activities and by what amount?"},{"startTime":1197.551,"endTime":1197.641,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1197.691,"endTime":1197.851,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1197.971,"endTime":1200.321,"body":"So they started this"},{"startTime":1197.971,"endTime":1200.321,"body":"concept of baselining."},{"startTime":1200.341,"endTime":1202.681,"body":"They would say, well, we'll just"},{"startTime":1200.341,"endTime":1202.681,"body":"take a free frame of the first one."},{"startTime":1202.681,"endTime":1205.711,"body":"We came up with that everybody"},{"startTime":1202.681,"endTime":1205.711,"body":"agreed on and that becomes"},{"startTime":1205.711,"endTime":1207.151,"body":"what they call the baseline."},{"startTime":1207.691,"endTime":1211.351,"body":"And then anytime you change it going"},{"startTime":1207.691,"endTime":1211.351,"body":"forward, other than just simply tracking"},{"startTime":1211.351,"endTime":1215.941,"body":"progress against it, have you changed it,"},{"startTime":1211.351,"endTime":1215.941,"body":"added something new, removed, something"},{"startTime":1215.971,"endTime":1220.111,"body":"changed, duration change of something"},{"startTime":1215.971,"endTime":1220.111,"body":"else, whatever these things were."},{"startTime":1220.981,"endTime":1222.271,"body":"Future snapshots again."},{"startTime":1222.271,"endTime":1222.541,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1222.541,"endTime":1226.711,"body":"They, they were saved and"},{"startTime":1222.541,"endTime":1226.711,"body":"sometimes people just did that."},{"startTime":1226.716,"endTime":1229.651,"body":"Just keep 'em going,"},{"startTime":1226.716,"endTime":1229.651,"body":"change the plan as you go."},{"startTime":1230.311,"endTime":1233.671,"body":"Other times people said we're"},{"startTime":1230.311,"endTime":1233.671,"body":"gonna have a new baseline now,"},{"startTime":1233.911,"endTime":1237.721,"body":"so you change C and you go, okay,"},{"startTime":1233.911,"endTime":1237.721,"body":"now, given this, where are we now?"},{"startTime":1237.721,"endTime":1238.621,"body":"That's our baseline."},{"startTime":1238.651,"endTime":1238.801,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1239.101,"endTime":1239.401,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1239.406,"endTime":1244.361,"body":"So it, that process is what in project"},{"startTime":1239.406,"endTime":1244.361,"body":"management is named re-baselining.."},{"startTime":1244.691,"endTime":1248.351,"body":"Um, so they did that, but beyond"},{"startTime":1244.691,"endTime":1248.351,"body":"all of that, really not a lot"},{"startTime":1248.351,"endTime":1250.151,"body":"has changed over the years."},{"startTime":1250.151,"endTime":1252.191,"body":"And I wanna go back to"},{"startTime":1250.151,"endTime":1252.191,"body":"your question, right?"},{"startTime":1252.371,"endTime":1254.141,"body":"You don't know what you"},{"startTime":1252.371,"endTime":1254.141,"body":"don't know basically."},{"startTime":1254.146,"endTime":1255.161,"body":"So how can you do that?"},{"startTime":1255.701,"endTime":1258.281,"body":"for software development,"},{"startTime":1255.701,"endTime":1258.281,"body":"that's a really good question"},{"startTime":1258.281,"endTime":1259.901,"body":"because software development's."},{"startTime":1260.401,"endTime":1260.881,"body":"Engineering."},{"startTime":1260.881,"endTime":1262.741,"body":"You're not stamping out widgets."},{"startTime":1262.741,"endTime":1264.931,"body":"I, when I say engineering, I"},{"startTime":1262.741,"endTime":1264.931,"body":"means like manufacturing mm-hmm"},{"startTime":1265.171,"endTime":1267.811,"body":"predictable inputs outputs, right?"},{"startTime":1267.931,"endTime":1270.781,"body":"And predictable time to"},{"startTime":1267.931,"endTime":1270.781,"body":"get from input to outputs."},{"startTime":1270.781,"endTime":1274.931,"body":"So you think about a black box, which"},{"startTime":1270.781,"endTime":1274.931,"body":"is the process,  the input is what it"},{"startTime":1274.931,"endTime":1277.751,"body":"is, the output, you know what to expect."},{"startTime":1278.111,"endTime":1279.581,"body":"All those three things are known."},{"startTime":1279.881,"endTime":1282.431,"body":"You can plot them on a chart."},{"startTime":1282.461,"endTime":1286.481,"body":"There you get chart inputs change"},{"startTime":1282.461,"endTime":1286.481,"body":"in software development inputs"},{"startTime":1286.481,"endTime":1288.131,"body":"here, meaning requirements, right?"},{"startTime":1288.131,"endTime":1291.241,"body":"They change people find"},{"startTime":1288.131,"endTime":1291.241,"body":"new things, et cetera."},{"startTime":1291.721,"endTime":1295.891,"body":"The process changes process, meaning"},{"startTime":1291.721,"endTime":1295.891,"body":"taking the inputs and turning them"},{"startTime":1295.891,"endTime":1299.581,"body":"into outputs that changes your"},{"startTime":1295.891,"endTime":1299.581,"body":"team can sit you and see changes."},{"startTime":1299.581,"endTime":1302.731,"body":"People leave new people, join you,"},{"startTime":1299.581,"endTime":1302.731,"body":"go back to forming everything that"},{"startTime":1302.731,"endTime":1304.471,"body":"we know about all that changes."},{"startTime":1304.951,"endTime":1310.401,"body":"and then the output itself, if you're"},{"startTime":1304.951,"endTime":1310.401,"body":"really doing agile, Can change, right?"},{"startTime":1310.401,"endTime":1313.251,"body":"So you, you set out at the beginning"},{"startTime":1310.401,"endTime":1313.251,"body":"and say, this is what we want."},{"startTime":1313.251,"endTime":1317.401,"body":"And when you get closer to it, assuming"},{"startTime":1313.251,"endTime":1317.401,"body":"that the, stakeholders, the business"},{"startTime":1317.401,"endTime":1320.971,"body":"has been involved throughout, they"},{"startTime":1317.401,"endTime":1320.971,"body":"might say, well, this is taking time."},{"startTime":1320.971,"endTime":1322.411,"body":"But what we have now is good enough."},{"startTime":1322.411,"endTime":1325.236,"body":"We don't need that other stuff,"},{"startTime":1322.411,"endTime":1325.236,"body":"that can happen in software."},{"startTime":1325.386,"endTime":1328.776,"body":"We don't need all that stuff now,"},{"startTime":1325.386,"endTime":1328.776,"body":"so we can just deploy what we have."},{"startTime":1329.046,"endTime":1329.226,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1329.326,"endTime":1335.476,"body":"But, but what would you say to"},{"startTime":1329.326,"endTime":1335.476,"body":"the person who claims, the Gant"},{"startTime":1335.476,"endTime":1338.266,"body":"chart tracks my chain cycle."},{"startTime":1338.656,"endTime":1343.076,"body":"And we might decide along the"},{"startTime":1338.656,"endTime":1343.076,"body":"way that we want to pivot in an"},{"startTime":1343.076,"endTime":1344.096,"body":"entirely different direction."},{"startTime":1344.096,"endTime":1344.756,"body":"And that's fine."},{"startTime":1344.756,"endTime":1346.136,"body":"We can update our Gantt."},{"startTime":1346.931,"endTime":1349.651,"body":"And, our Gantt chart"},{"startTime":1346.931,"endTime":1349.651,"body":"will change over time."},{"startTime":1349.651,"endTime":1352.991,"body":"And that, that is realistic that our"},{"startTime":1349.651,"endTime":1352.991,"body":"Gantt chart will change over time but"},{"startTime":1352.991,"endTime":1356.381,"body":"they'll have a mechanism that usually"},{"startTime":1352.991,"endTime":1356.381,"body":"the mechanism and like you've been"},{"startTime":1356.386,"endTime":1357.731,"body":"a project manager, so I'll tell you."},{"startTime":1357.731,"endTime":1362.111,"body":"But the mechanism from my perspective"},{"startTime":1357.731,"endTime":1362.111,"body":"is you go back in front of whatever"},{"startTime":1362.321,"endTime":1365.951,"body":"team manages, all the projects and"},{"startTime":1362.321,"endTime":1365.951,"body":"all the, usually it's a team that"},{"startTime":1365.951,"endTime":1368.021,"body":"has oversight over budget as well."},{"startTime":1368.051,"endTime":1372.311,"body":"Mm-hmm  you go back in front of that"},{"startTime":1368.051,"endTime":1372.311,"body":"team and you say, Hey, we've decided"},{"startTime":1372.311,"endTime":1377.311,"body":"that we wanna do X, Y, Z, and XYZ is"},{"startTime":1372.311,"endTime":1377.311,"body":"not the most advantageous of the market."},{"startTime":1377.311,"endTime":1378.451,"body":"So we're gonna pivot to ABC."},{"startTime":1379.051,"endTime":1381.261,"body":"And we're gonna cut the"},{"startTime":1379.051,"endTime":1381.261,"body":"Gantt chart off here."},{"startTime":1381.261,"endTime":1386.081,"body":"And the old XYZ is gonna stop here"},{"startTime":1381.261,"endTime":1386.081,"body":"on this date one week, two weeks,"},{"startTime":1386.081,"endTime":1389.231,"body":"whatever, from now, we're gonna"},{"startTime":1386.081,"endTime":1389.231,"body":"cut all the contractors, fire."},{"startTime":1389.236,"endTime":1390.071,"body":"'em all get rid of."},{"startTime":1390.071,"endTime":1392.781,"body":"'em all bring out a new team to"},{"startTime":1390.071,"endTime":1392.781,"body":"do whatever bringing in a team"},{"startTime":1392.781,"endTime":1393.771,"body":"from this other contractor."},{"startTime":1393.776,"endTime":1397.461,"body":"And then we'll start with Gantt"},{"startTime":1393.776,"endTime":1397.461,"body":"chart ABC, and we'll go with these"},{"startTime":1397.461,"endTime":1399.371,"body":"new priorities the argument here is."},{"startTime":1399.871,"endTime":1401.131,"body":"Gantt trucks work fine."},{"startTime":1401.161,"endTime":1404.911,"body":"Like if you have to adjust, like you"},{"startTime":1401.161,"endTime":1404.911,"body":"can, you can just adjust them and"},{"startTime":1404.911,"endTime":1408.901,"body":"change them and they'll indicate new"},{"startTime":1404.911,"endTime":1408.901,"body":"deliverables and you they'll basically"},{"startTime":1408.901,"endTime":1413.131,"body":"indicate a new plan to the end."},{"startTime":1413.631,"endTime":1415.516,"body":"And, it doesn't have to"},{"startTime":1413.631,"endTime":1415.516,"body":"match what we started with."},{"startTime":1415.936,"endTime":1419.116,"body":"It doesn't have to match, like we"},{"startTime":1415.936,"endTime":1419.116,"body":"can show that we just change a plan"},{"startTime":1419.146,"endTime":1423.226,"body":"because that's, that's, that's, that's"},{"startTime":1419.146,"endTime":1423.226,"body":"the, the principle of agility now."},{"startTime":1423.866,"endTime":1427.166,"body":", and now we've taken the best"},{"startTime":1423.866,"endTime":1427.166,"body":"of the project management world"},{"startTime":1427.226,"endTime":1428.636,"body":"and the best of the agile world."},{"startTime":1428.636,"endTime":1431.536,"body":"And we've blended them because"},{"startTime":1428.636,"endTime":1431.536,"body":"we'll just throw out whatever,"},{"startTime":1432.036,"endTime":1433.206,"body":"Gantt chart we had before."},{"startTime":1433.236,"endTime":1434.226,"body":"And we'll create a new one."},{"startTime":1434.346,"endTime":1434.916,"body":"And that's cool."},{"startTime":1434.996,"endTime":1435.176,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":1435.286,"endTime":1435.886,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1435.886,"endTime":1437.506,"body":"Yeah, that would be"},{"startTime":1435.886,"endTime":1437.506,"body":"the arguing point here."},{"startTime":1437.896,"endTime":1440.836,"body":"And that would be fair that as an"},{"startTime":1437.896,"endTime":1440.836,"body":"argument, I mean, there's some provisos"},{"startTime":1440.836,"endTime":1442.186,"body":"there that you mentioned already."},{"startTime":1442.186,"endTime":1443.896,"body":"It's okay to change right."},{"startTime":1443.926,"endTime":1445.306,"body":"When we have to pivot, we pivot."},{"startTime":1445.736,"endTime":1448.941,"body":"and if you're doing that,"},{"startTime":1445.736,"endTime":1448.941,"body":"then again, chart is fine to,"},{"startTime":1448.946,"endTime":1450.321,"body":"to, to use as an instrument."},{"startTime":1450.861,"endTime":1454.251,"body":"ultimately though you could look at that"},{"startTime":1450.861,"endTime":1454.251,"body":"and say, well, has your get chart really"},{"startTime":1454.251,"endTime":1459.271,"body":"any different than a product roadmap as we"},{"startTime":1454.251,"endTime":1459.271,"body":"know it in agile, but most organizations"},{"startTime":1459.271,"endTime":1464.671,"body":"though, they tend to frown upon changes"},{"startTime":1459.271,"endTime":1464.671,"body":"to a plan, changes to our get chart."},{"startTime":1465.091,"endTime":1467.311,"body":"What do you mean you have to,"},{"startTime":1465.091,"endTime":1467.311,"body":"oh, we're delayed now we're"},{"startTime":1467.311,"endTime":1469.261,"body":"suddenly in delay mode, right?"},{"startTime":1469.651,"endTime":1472.501,"body":"Assuming you're not doing a hard"},{"startTime":1469.651,"endTime":1472.501,"body":"pivot where everything changes."},{"startTime":1472.501,"endTime":1475.701,"body":"They understand that, but"},{"startTime":1472.501,"endTime":1475.701,"body":"what we find is a plan."},{"startTime":1475.851,"endTime":1480.881,"body":"A Gantt chart is made up many months in"},{"startTime":1475.851,"endTime":1480.881,"body":"advance of the desired end result and"},{"startTime":1480.881,"endTime":1483.251,"body":"any delays, any slippage is frowned upon."},{"startTime":1483.251,"endTime":1483.311,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1483.671,"endTime":1485.861,"body":"And that is completely non agile."},{"startTime":1486.361,"endTime":1489.811,"body":"We've been talking about this topic"},{"startTime":1486.361,"endTime":1489.811,"body":"now for a while, but we've not talked"},{"startTime":1489.811,"endTime":1495.421,"body":"about how each individual little bar"},{"startTime":1489.811,"endTime":1495.421,"body":"on the Gantt chart is created because"},{"startTime":1495.451,"endTime":1499.711,"body":"each individual bar on the Gantt chart"},{"startTime":1495.451,"endTime":1499.711,"body":"could potentially be an individual"},{"startTime":1499.711,"endTime":1503.521,"body":"team doing, playing to tell the person"},{"startTime":1499.711,"endTime":1503.521,"body":"who's compiling the Gantt chart."},{"startTime":1503.791,"endTime":1507.421,"body":"I was trying very hard not to say project"},{"startTime":1503.791,"endTime":1507.421,"body":"manager, the person who's compiling the"},{"startTime":1507.421,"endTime":1512.721,"body":"Gantt chart to tell them how long they"},{"startTime":1507.421,"endTime":1512.721,"body":"think in their expert opinion, it would"},{"startTime":1512.721,"endTime":1516.441,"body":"take to carry out whatever that bar is."},{"startTime":1516.941,"endTime":1519.591,"body":"So there's planning involved."},{"startTime":1520.566,"endTime":1524.636,"body":"But if you're trying to say, I want"},{"startTime":1520.566,"endTime":1524.636,"body":"you to build a new software package,"},{"startTime":1524.916,"endTime":1526.896,"body":"a new software website or mobile app."},{"startTime":1526.896,"endTime":1528.006,"body":"Let's, let's go mobile app."},{"startTime":1528.346,"endTime":1532.216,"body":"We're in the business of knocking"},{"startTime":1528.346,"endTime":1532.216,"body":"out widgets, that we sell in the"},{"startTime":1532.216,"endTime":1535.906,"body":"app store for whatever $2 for"},{"startTime":1532.216,"endTime":1535.906,"body":"whatever people download them."},{"startTime":1535.906,"endTime":1536.086,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1536.116,"endTime":1538.066,"body":"Mm-hmm  widget just do"},{"startTime":1536.116,"endTime":1538.066,"body":"X, Y, Z functionality,"},{"startTime":1538.066,"endTime":1539.176,"body":"whatever the, whatever it is."},{"startTime":1539.326,"endTime":1539.566,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1540.066,"endTime":1545.151,"body":"I want you to, create a new widget for my"},{"startTime":1540.066,"endTime":1545.151,"body":"company that, , does X, Y, Z put it in the"},{"startTime":1545.156,"endTime":1547.641,"body":"widget and push it out the store, right?"},{"startTime":1547.701,"endTime":1550.431,"body":"You're gonna build me a Gantt chart"},{"startTime":1547.701,"endTime":1550.431,"body":"and the Gantt chart's gonna have"},{"startTime":1550.431,"endTime":1554.751,"body":"milestones and the milestones are"},{"startTime":1550.431,"endTime":1554.751,"body":"gonna say different functionality."},{"startTime":1554.751,"endTime":1557.811,"body":"And the very end is my"},{"startTime":1554.751,"endTime":1557.811,"body":"app is in the app store."},{"startTime":1557.811,"endTime":1561.686,"body":"It's people can download it and"},{"startTime":1557.811,"endTime":1561.686,"body":"do X, Y, and Z functionality"},{"startTime":1561.896,"endTime":1564.086,"body":"X and Y and Z functionality."},{"startTime":1564.686,"endTime":1568.666,"body":"So you're gonna have a Gantt chart that"},{"startTime":1564.686,"endTime":1568.666,"body":"says build X functionality, build Y"},{"startTime":1568.666,"endTime":1574.006,"body":"functionality, build Z functionality,"},{"startTime":1568.666,"endTime":1574.006,"body":"pushed out to the app store, let customers"},{"startTime":1574.011,"endTime":1576.046,"body":"download it and do XYZ functionality."},{"startTime":1576.646,"endTime":1579.526,"body":"Yeah, I mean, in that example,"},{"startTime":1576.646,"endTime":1579.526,"body":"so if you've got each bar being"},{"startTime":1579.531,"endTime":1583.776,"body":"represented by somebody who says"},{"startTime":1579.531,"endTime":1583.776,"body":"this is a team that's building this."},{"startTime":1583.836,"endTime":1583.956,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1584.136,"endTime":1584.706,"body":"Et cetera."},{"startTime":1585.156,"endTime":1586.746,"body":"then what should really happen?"},{"startTime":1587.056,"endTime":1588.766,"body":"As opposed to what actually happens."},{"startTime":1589.246,"endTime":1590.596,"body":"So let's just take it backwards."},{"startTime":1590.596,"endTime":1593.116,"body":"What actually happens is somebody"},{"startTime":1590.596,"endTime":1593.116,"body":"just puts down their best effort."},{"startTime":1593.206,"endTime":1596.896,"body":"It might be based on their experience, or"},{"startTime":1593.206,"endTime":1596.896,"body":"it might be just something they pull out"},{"startTime":1596.896,"endTime":1600.316,"body":"of the air and say, this takes a month who"},{"startTime":1596.896,"endTime":1600.316,"body":"is like, I gotta help you there because"},{"startTime":1600.316,"endTime":1605.736,"body":"this, this is my, if I'm gonna if you"},{"startTime":1600.316,"endTime":1605.736,"body":"are, in the spirit of refuting, I have to"},{"startTime":1605.736,"endTime":1607.746,"body":"stop you there because I need specifics."},{"startTime":1607.896,"endTime":1608.896,"body":"Oh, I give you specifics."},{"startTime":1609.486,"endTime":1611.556,"body":"We're gonna assume that it's one team."},{"startTime":1612.156,"endTime":1612.366,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1612.366,"endTime":1613.056,"body":"It's a mobile app."},{"startTime":1613.056,"endTime":1613.836,"body":"It's one team."},{"startTime":1614.136,"endTime":1614.436,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1614.496,"endTime":1618.006,"body":"Couple iOS developer, Android"},{"startTime":1614.496,"endTime":1618.006,"body":"developer, maybe two backend"},{"startTime":1618.006,"endTime":1619.506,"body":"developers to support them."},{"startTime":1619.506,"endTime":1620.976,"body":"So it's a, it's one team."},{"startTime":1621.786,"endTime":1625.716,"body":"I want X functionality, Y"},{"startTime":1621.786,"endTime":1625.716,"body":"functionality, Z functionality."},{"startTime":1625.716,"endTime":1627.996,"body":"There are three different features, right?"},{"startTime":1628.386,"endTime":1631.236,"body":"I want them all done before I"},{"startTime":1628.386,"endTime":1631.236,"body":"push my app to the store for the"},{"startTime":1631.236,"endTime":1636.656,"body":"customers, because that's what"},{"startTime":1631.236,"endTime":1636.656,"body":"I've decided it is MVP, not you."},{"startTime":1636.656,"endTime":1639.176,"body":"And I both know we're gonna"},{"startTime":1636.656,"endTime":1639.176,"body":"put that offline for a second."},{"startTime":1639.176,"endTime":1639.266,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1639.596,"endTime":1646.216,"body":"For the purposes example, we know that"},{"startTime":1639.596,"endTime":1646.216,"body":"MVP should not be X functionality."},{"startTime":1646.216,"endTime":1647.356,"body":"Y Z, etc."},{"startTime":1647.356,"endTime":1650.326,"body":"C MVP is like, I made some screen designs."},{"startTime":1650.446,"endTime":1651.286,"body":"That's MVP."},{"startTime":1651.286,"endTime":1657.126,"body":"I pushed out in four hours"},{"startTime":1651.286,"endTime":1657.126,"body":"and here's my mobile app."},{"startTime":1657.626,"endTime":1661.226,"body":"the reason I bring that app is I"},{"startTime":1657.626,"endTime":1661.226,"body":"want to, I want to make it more"},{"startTime":1661.226,"endTime":1664.316,"body":"tactile, more real world for people"},{"startTime":1661.226,"endTime":1664.316,"body":"that might be listening right now."},{"startTime":1664.556,"endTime":1664.946,"body":"That's why."},{"startTime":1665.446,"endTime":1665.656,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1665.656,"endTime":1667.126,"body":"So if let's just go back, right."},{"startTime":1667.246,"endTime":1668.866,"body":"It's one team, that's fine."},{"startTime":1668.871,"endTime":1671.356,"body":"You have three I'll call"},{"startTime":1668.871,"endTime":1671.356,"body":"features, whatever they are."},{"startTime":1671.356,"endTime":1671.656,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1671.836,"endTime":1671.926,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1672.026,"endTime":1677.516,"body":"as far as the game chart, how does"},{"startTime":1672.026,"endTime":1677.516,"body":"the estimate to complete each of"},{"startTime":1677.516,"endTime":1679.406,"body":"these get reflected on the get chart?"},{"startTime":1680.066,"endTime":1682.556,"body":"So there's one of two different ways."},{"startTime":1683.216,"endTime":1685.646,"body":"Usually it's somebody"},{"startTime":1683.216,"endTime":1685.646,"body":"uses expert judgment."},{"startTime":1686.096,"endTime":1689.766,"body":"Or just judgment and this says, I I've"},{"startTime":1686.096,"endTime":1689.766,"body":"done this before with other teams."},{"startTime":1689.766,"endTime":1693.996,"body":"This kind of thing takes about this long"},{"startTime":1689.766,"endTime":1693.996,"body":"I'll add in my little padding to it."},{"startTime":1694.266,"endTime":1695.826,"body":"And so this is what I think it is."},{"startTime":1696.396,"endTime":1697.146,"body":"That's one way."},{"startTime":1697.146,"endTime":1702.016,"body":"And then they repeat for the other two a,"},{"startTime":1697.146,"endTime":1702.016,"body":"B and C start of a finish of C there's,"},{"startTime":1702.016,"endTime":1703.936,"body":"there's your, there's your product?"},{"startTime":1704.396,"endTime":1707.936,"body":"the other way is you get the"},{"startTime":1704.396,"endTime":1707.936,"body":"whole team together and you"},{"startTime":1707.936,"endTime":1709.136,"body":"say, this is what we need to do."},{"startTime":1709.496,"endTime":1714.116,"body":"Go and figure out the, the how part let's"},{"startTime":1709.496,"endTime":1714.116,"body":"get back together again in, in a few days."},{"startTime":1714.356,"endTime":1714.416,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1714.506,"endTime":1720.506,"body":"And as a team with everybody's"},{"startTime":1714.506,"endTime":1720.506,"body":"thoughts and inputs and, and going"},{"startTime":1720.506,"endTime":1724.196,"body":"back and forth and negotiation,"},{"startTime":1720.506,"endTime":1724.196,"body":"et cetera, you would come up with."},{"startTime":1724.696,"endTime":1730.096,"body":"a minimal path that gets you from a"},{"startTime":1724.696,"endTime":1730.096,"body":"to C at the end mm-hmm . If I was a"},{"startTime":1730.096,"endTime":1737.296,"body":"project manager or the Gantt creator"},{"startTime":1730.096,"endTime":1737.296,"body":"of that process, I would then look"},{"startTime":1737.296,"endTime":1741.076,"body":"at that and say, well, what are our"},{"startTime":1737.296,"endTime":1741.076,"body":"assumptions that we're using here in"},{"startTime":1741.076,"endTime":1743.111,"body":"building this, what are some of the risks?"},{"startTime":1743.141,"endTime":1745.451,"body":"What are the dependencies that"},{"startTime":1743.141,"endTime":1745.451,"body":"we haven't thought about that"},{"startTime":1745.451,"endTime":1747.401,"body":"we might consider those things?"},{"startTime":1747.701,"endTime":1752.471,"body":"So after you do that with your team"},{"startTime":1747.701,"endTime":1752.471,"body":"at large, you would then add in"},{"startTime":1752.531,"endTime":1757.701,"body":"all of those and say, it lends you"},{"startTime":1752.531,"endTime":1757.701,"body":"at, November, sometime, and not a"},{"startTime":1757.701,"endTime":1761.841,"body":"big fan of actual dates, but let's"},{"startTime":1757.701,"endTime":1761.841,"body":"say November, it falls in November."},{"startTime":1762.201,"endTime":1766.041,"body":"So my game chart shows an actual"},{"startTime":1762.201,"endTime":1766.041,"body":"date because all the software"},{"startTime":1766.041,"endTime":1769.521,"body":"out there that does game charts,"},{"startTime":1766.041,"endTime":1769.521,"body":"deals with absolute dates."},{"startTime":1769.521,"endTime":1769.611,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1769.881,"endTime":1770.001,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1770.001,"endTime":1773.186,"body":"You can roll that up and look at it"},{"startTime":1770.001,"endTime":1773.186,"body":"in quarters or weeks or whatever."},{"startTime":1773.191,"endTime":1774.236,"body":"Probably a good idea."},{"startTime":1774.536,"endTime":1776.026,"body":"And let's just say, I looked at November."},{"startTime":1776.526,"endTime":1781.916,"body":"My messaging to stakeholders would"},{"startTime":1776.526,"endTime":1781.916,"body":"be, we can get this done, assuming"},{"startTime":1782.266,"endTime":1785.176,"body":"the assumptions that we have here,"},{"startTime":1782.266,"endTime":1785.176,"body":"they are, we listed those for you."},{"startTime":1785.276,"endTime":1790.946,"body":"Somewhere between November and January"},{"startTime":1785.276,"endTime":1790.946,"body":"or whatever, it's always a range."},{"startTime":1791.156,"endTime":1791.486,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1791.846,"endTime":1797.636,"body":"And that is at this point in time with"},{"startTime":1791.846,"endTime":1797.636,"body":"what we know, we will come back if"},{"startTime":1797.636,"endTime":1799.676,"body":"there's any substantial changes to that."},{"startTime":1799.806,"endTime":1800.096,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1800.156,"endTime":1803.696,"body":"If there's changes that take you from"},{"startTime":1800.156,"endTime":1803.696,"body":"November to December, and you will know as"},{"startTime":1803.696,"endTime":1808.296,"body":"you go forward that something's slipping"},{"startTime":1803.696,"endTime":1808.296,"body":"be upfront and say, look, that Gantt chart"},{"startTime":1808.316,"endTime":1809.996,"body":"I shared with you that needs to change."},{"startTime":1809.996,"endTime":1810.716,"body":"And here's why."},{"startTime":1810.776,"endTime":1810.956,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1811.226,"endTime":1815.166,"body":"Well, I need to ask some questions"},{"startTime":1811.226,"endTime":1815.166,"body":"to make my argument a bit more solid."},{"startTime":1815.226,"endTime":1815.466,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1815.546,"endTime":1822.096,"body":"If I'm trying to, as a project manager,"},{"startTime":1815.546,"endTime":1822.096,"body":"if I'm trying to claim that my high level."},{"startTime":1822.596,"endTime":1825.506,"body":"ties to budget that that's"},{"startTime":1822.596,"endTime":1825.506,"body":"really where this comes down to."},{"startTime":1825.506,"endTime":1825.566,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1825.596,"endTime":1826.676,"body":"I'm trying to tie it to budget."},{"startTime":1827.156,"endTime":1829.756,"body":"If I'm trying to claim that"},{"startTime":1827.156,"endTime":1829.756,"body":"my high level, budgeting"},{"startTime":1830.026,"endTime":1832.426,"body":"basically, holds up the scrutiny."},{"startTime":1832.926,"endTime":1836.316,"body":"I need to know that all the"},{"startTime":1832.926,"endTime":1836.316,"body":"planning that we did is all the"},{"startTime":1836.316,"endTime":1837.606,"body":"planning that needs to happen."},{"startTime":1838.106,"endTime":1839.096,"body":"That's the issue here."},{"startTime":1839.096,"endTime":1843.386,"body":"Like I can't, I can't have my"},{"startTime":1839.096,"endTime":1843.386,"body":"team go back into planning as the"},{"startTime":1843.386,"endTime":1845.006,"body":"project goes deeper over time."},{"startTime":1845.486,"endTime":1847.606,"body":"And as the project,"},{"startTime":1845.486,"endTime":1847.606,"body":", stretches out over time."},{"startTime":1848.496,"endTime":1851.757,"body":", and, and if you wanna take this"},{"startTime":1848.496,"endTime":1851.757,"body":"back to a most people, like"},{"startTime":1852.326,"endTime":1853.646,"body":"we're gonna lose most people now."},{"startTime":1853.651,"endTime":1860.241,"body":"So thank you for listening to the podcast,"},{"startTime":1853.651,"endTime":1860.241,"body":"but if I'm a project manager and I'm going"},{"startTime":1860.241,"endTime":1866.271,"body":"to say, Hey, we're done with the planning"},{"startTime":1860.241,"endTime":1866.271,"body":"phase of this capitalized software budget."},{"startTime":1866.301,"endTime":1870.051,"body":"We're going into technical"},{"startTime":1866.301,"endTime":1870.051,"body":"feasibility phase where we can"},{"startTime":1870.056,"endTime":1874.851,"body":"capitalize the a hundred percent of"},{"startTime":1870.056,"endTime":1874.851,"body":"the developer's time or whatever."},{"startTime":1874.971,"endTime":1875.121,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1875.571,"endTime":1878.181,"body":"I, I need to know that I'm not going back."},{"startTime":1878.181,"endTime":1880.491,"body":"I'm not dipping back into planning phase."},{"startTime":1880.941,"endTime":1885.361,"body":"So in my chart, when we were in the"},{"startTime":1880.941,"endTime":1885.361,"body":"next bar where it's a hundred percent"},{"startTime":1885.361,"endTime":1890.271,"body":"capitalized, whereas like we went through"},{"startTime":1885.361,"endTime":1890.271,"body":"a couple weeks of deep, deep planning with"},{"startTime":1890.271,"endTime":1894.741,"body":"my tech leads and my architect, where the"},{"startTime":1890.271,"endTime":1894.741,"body":"architect came down from the mountain and"},{"startTime":1894.741,"endTime":1898.261,"body":"said, oh my like, here is my architecture."},{"startTime":1898.761,"endTime":1902.686,"body":"Plebes I dunno I'm sorry I dunno,"},{"startTime":1898.761,"endTime":1902.686,"body":"you used to be an architect."},{"startTime":1902.686,"endTime":1903.196,"body":"I can tell."},{"startTime":1903.201,"endTime":1903.376,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1903.376,"endTime":1903.616,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1903.616,"endTime":1903.617,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1904.216,"endTime":1910.756,"body":"I cannot go back into a planning phase"},{"startTime":1904.216,"endTime":1910.756,"body":"cuz then I have to alert my finance"},{"startTime":1910.756,"endTime":1915.786,"body":"people and I gotta go have a conversation"},{"startTime":1910.756,"endTime":1915.786,"body":"with my CFO and say, oh, I said that"},{"startTime":1915.786,"endTime":1920.436,"body":"we were not doing a planning phase,"},{"startTime":1915.786,"endTime":1920.436,"body":"but is we had to do more planning"},{"startTime":1920.576,"endTime":1926.426,"body":"the lean principle here for me, if"},{"startTime":1920.576,"endTime":1926.426,"body":"I'm trying to completely pervert"},{"startTime":1926.516,"endTime":1932.306,"body":"the Gantt chart and agile, , is the"},{"startTime":1926.516,"endTime":1932.306,"body":"assembly line can never move backwards."},{"startTime":1932.786,"endTime":1936.356,"body":"The, the line only moves one direction."},{"startTime":1936.806,"endTime":1937.016,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":1937.076,"endTime":1940.396,"body":"So the worst you could do is"},{"startTime":1937.076,"endTime":1940.396,"body":"you can take something off the"},{"startTime":1940.401,"endTime":1943.036,"body":"assembly line, call it waste."},{"startTime":1943.536,"endTime":1944.916,"body":"Put it back on from the beginning."},{"startTime":1945.246,"endTime":1945.486,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1945.846,"endTime":1949.486,"body":"That's that's the worst, that's that"},{"startTime":1945.846,"endTime":1949.486,"body":"is, and that's really the worst case."},{"startTime":1949.486,"endTime":1951.946,"body":"You can't stop the line and"},{"startTime":1949.486,"endTime":1951.946,"body":"move the whole line backwards."},{"startTime":1951.996,"endTime":1954.036,"body":"That's not in the model."},{"startTime":1954.246,"endTime":1956.316,"body":"No, that's, that's very, very true."},{"startTime":1956.556,"endTime":1957.816,"body":"I would say this though."},{"startTime":1957.896,"endTime":1961.676,"body":"The concept that you've just outlined"},{"startTime":1957.896,"endTime":1961.676,"body":"is, is very, very prevalent out there."},{"startTime":1961.676,"endTime":1961.856,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1961.946,"endTime":1963.356,"body":"Do all the planning up front, indeed."},{"startTime":1963.356,"endTime":1966.866,"body":"They even call it the planning phase and"},{"startTime":1963.356,"endTime":1966.866,"body":"the implementation phase or execution."},{"startTime":1966.926,"endTime":1967.046,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1967.496,"endTime":1970.886,"body":", that seldom works and I'll"},{"startTime":1967.496,"endTime":1970.886,"body":"illustrate that with an analogy."},{"startTime":1971.186,"endTime":1971.396,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1971.396,"endTime":1975.996,"body":"Next time, you're on a flight just think"},{"startTime":1971.396,"endTime":1975.996,"body":"about how that flight pans out let's say"},{"startTime":1975.996,"endTime":1977.646,"body":"you're going from and take a real example."},{"startTime":1977.646,"endTime":1981.506,"body":"Let's say you're going from, I"},{"startTime":1977.646,"endTime":1981.506,"body":"dunno, LA to London, what happens?"},{"startTime":1981.566,"endTime":1982.556,"body":"The flight takes off."},{"startTime":1982.646,"endTime":1988.646,"body":"See, it takes off on time from LA and is"},{"startTime":1982.646,"endTime":1988.646,"body":"going across the, the Midwest on its way."},{"startTime":1988.886,"endTime":1993.986,"body":"And if you're flight people, you you'd"},{"startTime":1988.886,"endTime":1993.986,"body":"understand, they, the pilots are following"},{"startTime":1993.986,"endTime":1995.726,"body":"what are called way points along the way."},{"startTime":1996.226,"endTime":2001.046,"body":"And, and you can follow the flight on"},{"startTime":1996.226,"endTime":2001.046,"body":"a, on a map seat for like seat back."},{"startTime":2001.556,"endTime":2002.126,"body":"You can do that."},{"startTime":2002.486,"endTime":2006.326,"body":"And then you'll see that he's"},{"startTime":2002.486,"endTime":2006.326,"body":"suddenly decided to go against the"},{"startTime":2006.326,"endTime":2010.316,"body":"anticipated path, which is usually"},{"startTime":2006.326,"endTime":2010.316,"body":"an arc he's he's going against that."},{"startTime":2010.316,"endTime":2014.126,"body":"He's now going up to Canada, he's gonna"},{"startTime":2010.316,"endTime":2014.126,"body":"Halifax instead of going straight across"},{"startTime":2014.126,"endTime":2016.136,"body":"the Atlantic, why would he do that?"},{"startTime":2016.466,"endTime":2020.966,"body":"And so where I'm going with this"},{"startTime":2016.466,"endTime":2020.966,"body":"is the pilot didn't know himself."},{"startTime":2020.966,"endTime":2024.716,"body":"When he, or she set off from"},{"startTime":2020.966,"endTime":2024.716,"body":"LA, that that's the path"},{"startTime":2024.716,"endTime":2025.556,"body":"they're gonna have to take."},{"startTime":2025.796,"endTime":2029.956,"body":"They knew the start, they knew the"},{"startTime":2025.796,"endTime":2029.956,"body":"destination and because they've done this"},{"startTime":2029.956,"endTime":2035.866,"body":"several times before they knew roughly"},{"startTime":2029.956,"endTime":2035.866,"body":"the kind of timeframes it takes, right?"},{"startTime":2036.136,"endTime":2039.046,"body":"And so they could say, well,"},{"startTime":2036.136,"endTime":2039.046,"body":"we're gonna land it this time."},{"startTime":2039.166,"endTime":2042.486,"body":"So when you take off, they'll say"},{"startTime":2039.166,"endTime":2042.486,"body":"we're flying at X thousand free."},{"startTime":2042.816,"endTime":2045.446,"body":"Our flight duration is"},{"startTime":2042.816,"endTime":2045.446,"body":"going to be blah, Right."},{"startTime":2045.746,"endTime":2050.306,"body":"They'll say that, but on the way,"},{"startTime":2045.746,"endTime":2050.306,"body":"if they're deviating from the plan,"},{"startTime":2050.606,"endTime":2054.446,"body":"it's because of external factors"},{"startTime":2050.606,"endTime":2054.446,"body":"that they just learned on route, they"},{"startTime":2054.451,"endTime":2058.051,"body":"learned this bad weather for example,"},{"startTime":2054.451,"endTime":2058.051,"body":"they learned that the president's"},{"startTime":2058.051,"endTime":2059.401,"body":"plane is flying in the vicinity."},{"startTime":2059.401,"endTime":2063.391,"body":"So they were told to steer away"},{"startTime":2059.401,"endTime":2063.391,"body":"these things are, these are real."},{"startTime":2063.391,"endTime":2066.436,"body":"They happen all the time they"},{"startTime":2063.391,"endTime":2066.436,"body":"learn there's just simply too"},{"startTime":2066.436,"endTime":2068.536,"body":"much traffic as it's called right."},{"startTime":2068.536,"endTime":2069.376,"body":"Too much traffic."},{"startTime":2069.406,"endTime":2073.996,"body":"So they're told, Hey, deviate up here or"},{"startTime":2069.406,"endTime":2073.996,"body":"reduced to a lower altitude, et cetera."},{"startTime":2073.996,"endTime":2075.166,"body":"These things happen all the time."},{"startTime":2075.176,"endTime":2076.516,"body":"Mm-hmm . And what do the pilots do?"},{"startTime":2076.816,"endTime":2078.706,"body":"They don't sit there and update a plan."},{"startTime":2078.706,"endTime":2083.176,"body":"They simply respond to the"},{"startTime":2078.706,"endTime":2083.176,"body":"plan by agreeing to ATC and"},{"startTime":2083.181,"endTime":2084.346,"body":"doing what they're asked to do."},{"startTime":2084.896,"endTime":2088.326,"body":"and eventually they'll get to London and"},{"startTime":2084.896,"endTime":2088.326,"body":"they might get there at the same time."},{"startTime":2088.326,"endTime":2088.926,"body":"They might not."},{"startTime":2088.926,"endTime":2093.246,"body":"And if they don't, you can't say you got"},{"startTime":2088.926,"endTime":2093.246,"body":"here late, we call that, , collaborating."},{"startTime":2093.406,"endTime":2093.756,"body":", right."},{"startTime":2093.761,"endTime":2094.076,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2094.106,"endTime":2094.766,"body":"They collaborate."},{"startTime":2094.946,"endTime":2098.796,"body":"So with the other pilots in the area, also"},{"startTime":2094.946,"endTime":2098.796,"body":"with air traffic control, , yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2098.796,"endTime":2100.026,"body":"We, that collaborating."},{"startTime":2100.236,"endTime":2100.656,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2100.836,"endTime":2101.196,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2101.196,"endTime":2101.886,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":2102.216,"endTime":2106.146,"body":"So my point of, of that analogy"},{"startTime":2102.216,"endTime":2106.146,"body":"is did they get you to your"},{"startTime":2106.146,"endTime":2107.826,"body":"destination safe and sound."},{"startTime":2108.186,"endTime":2111.656,"body":"That's the, first and foremost"},{"startTime":2108.186,"endTime":2111.656,"body":"requirement, and now you could say"},{"startTime":2111.746,"endTime":2115.826,"body":"they did, but you know, 20 minutes"},{"startTime":2111.746,"endTime":2115.826,"body":"late, it's like, okay, so what, right."},{"startTime":2115.856,"endTime":2118.076,"body":"There's nothing you can do"},{"startTime":2115.856,"endTime":2118.076,"body":"about that as it happened."},{"startTime":2118.346,"endTime":2122.576,"body":"So I think coming back to Gantt charts,"},{"startTime":2118.346,"endTime":2122.576,"body":"we need to treat them in that way."},{"startTime":2122.636,"endTime":2122.906,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2122.906,"endTime":2124.856,"body":"So to your point about planning,"},{"startTime":2122.906,"endTime":2124.856,"body":"here's what I would do."},{"startTime":2124.856,"endTime":2128.876,"body":"If I were that project manager who"},{"startTime":2124.856,"endTime":2128.876,"body":"had planning as a phase, I would"},{"startTime":2128.876,"endTime":2132.236,"body":"have that in, but I would call that"},{"startTime":2128.876,"endTime":2132.236,"body":"initial planning and then I would"},{"startTime":2132.236,"endTime":2134.276,"body":"have planning built into every phase."},{"startTime":2134.336,"endTime":2134.486,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2134.826,"endTime":2139.206,"body":"and that's for the purpose of making those"},{"startTime":2134.826,"endTime":2139.206,"body":"deviations course corrections on the way."},{"startTime":2139.666,"endTime":2143.056,"body":"I wanna pivot now to the"},{"startTime":2139.666,"endTime":2143.056,"body":"case against Gant charts."},{"startTime":2143.086,"endTime":2147.646,"body":"what we started with in our intro"},{"startTime":2143.086,"endTime":2147.646,"body":"in agile, like obviously the first"},{"startTime":2147.646,"endTime":2149.176,"body":"one is, , don't do a Gantt chart."},{"startTime":2149.206,"endTime":2149.476,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2149.606,"endTime":2154.551,"body":"But, Brian's sassiness aside and"},{"startTime":2149.606,"endTime":2154.551,"body":"that's a huge aside, by the way."},{"startTime":2154.911,"endTime":2156.831,"body":", let's talk about the case against Gant."},{"startTime":2156.881,"endTime":2161.376,"body":"If somebody told you, Hey,"},{"startTime":2156.881,"endTime":2161.376,"body":"we're a agile company and we"},{"startTime":2161.381,"endTime":2164.226,"body":"do agile software development."},{"startTime":2164.646,"endTime":2168.666,"body":", but I had, , somebody in my"},{"startTime":2164.646,"endTime":2168.666,"body":"company leadership maybe, right."},{"startTime":2168.906,"endTime":2170.496,"body":"Saying, Hey, oh, I need a Gantt chart."},{"startTime":2170.556,"endTime":2173.406,"body":"I don't know how to tell when"},{"startTime":2170.556,"endTime":2173.406,"body":"things are gonna be done."},{"startTime":2173.406,"endTime":2175.596,"body":"If I don't have a Gantt chart,"},{"startTime":2173.406,"endTime":2175.596,"body":"you need to do a Gantt chart."},{"startTime":2175.876,"endTime":2178.421,"body":"What would your initial reaction be?"},{"startTime":2178.811,"endTime":2179.741,"body":"How would you deal with that?"},{"startTime":2179.771,"endTime":2181.061,"body":"How would you deal with that person?"},{"startTime":2181.561,"endTime":2182.621,"body":"Probably in leadership."},{"startTime":2183.121,"endTime":2186.691,"body":"Telling you that, what, what would"},{"startTime":2183.121,"endTime":2186.691,"body":"your first impulse be before we go"},{"startTime":2186.691,"endTime":2188.401,"body":"into the case against Gant charts?"},{"startTime":2189.211,"endTime":2192.841,"body":"Well, as a lean Angelist"},{"startTime":2189.211,"endTime":2192.841,"body":"my first impulse is yuck."},{"startTime":2192.841,"endTime":2196.801,"body":"What a waste, because ultimately"},{"startTime":2192.841,"endTime":2196.801,"body":"this is not adding value."},{"startTime":2197.011,"endTime":2197.221,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2197.221,"endTime":2201.061,"body":"But that not withstanding, that's"},{"startTime":2197.221,"endTime":2201.061,"body":"obviously my, my first reaction as"},{"startTime":2201.066,"endTime":2202.321,"body":"well would be like, oh, GA shark."},{"startTime":2202.821,"endTime":2205.851,"body":"That doesn't really help anyone but,"},{"startTime":2202.821,"endTime":2205.851,"body":"but I mean, given the fact that you"},{"startTime":2205.856,"endTime":2208.671,"body":"ha you know, you're being asked by"},{"startTime":2205.856,"endTime":2208.671,"body":"leadership to do something like this."},{"startTime":2208.671,"endTime":2214.391,"body":"I think what I would do is this, I"},{"startTime":2208.671,"endTime":2214.391,"body":"would say, look at the granularity,"},{"startTime":2214.601,"endTime":2217.451,"body":"which at which you will provide"},{"startTime":2214.601,"endTime":2217.451,"body":"such a thing, because when you"},{"startTime":2217.451,"endTime":2221.311,"body":"think about what your teams are"},{"startTime":2217.451,"endTime":2221.311,"body":"doing, they're doing sprints, right."},{"startTime":2222.031,"endTime":2226.861,"body":"One to four weeks, possibly two mm-hmm"},{"startTime":2222.031,"endTime":2226.861,"body":". And during the sprints, it's the team"},{"startTime":2226.861,"endTime":2230.671,"body":"that picks up enough work that they"},{"startTime":2226.861,"endTime":2230.671,"body":"feel they can finish in the sprint."},{"startTime":2231.131,"endTime":2233.681,"body":"and sometimes work doesn't get"},{"startTime":2231.131,"endTime":2233.681,"body":"finished for whatever reason."},{"startTime":2233.951,"endTime":2236.381,"body":"So my point is where would you get chart?"},{"startTime":2236.381,"endTime":2238.151,"body":"Like what level are you"},{"startTime":2236.381,"endTime":2238.151,"body":"doing your get chart at?"},{"startTime":2238.181,"endTime":2239.591,"body":"Are you doing that at the sprint level?"},{"startTime":2239.591,"endTime":2242.111,"body":"You say in the sprint,"},{"startTime":2239.591,"endTime":2242.111,"body":"we'll do this in the sprint."},{"startTime":2242.111,"endTime":2246.841,"body":"We'll do this, or are you saying"},{"startTime":2242.111,"endTime":2246.841,"body":"it it's every X sprint because if"},{"startTime":2246.846,"endTime":2249.721,"body":"you're doing it at the sprint level,"},{"startTime":2246.846,"endTime":2249.721,"body":"you always be updating that thing."},{"startTime":2249.841,"endTime":2249.931,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2249.931,"endTime":2253.081,"body":"Over and over and over and worse than"},{"startTime":2249.931,"endTime":2253.081,"body":"that, you would always be trying to"},{"startTime":2253.081,"endTime":2257.281,"body":"justify that to leadership, that,"},{"startTime":2253.081,"endTime":2257.281,"body":"to say, you said it would be done."},{"startTime":2257.281,"endTime":2258.181,"body":"Why isn't it done?"},{"startTime":2258.361,"endTime":2258.451,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2258.811,"endTime":2263.386,"body":"So what I would do is I would have a"},{"startTime":2258.811,"endTime":2263.386,"body":"conversation with leadership and set"},{"startTime":2263.386,"endTime":2269.716,"body":"their expectation that the Gantt chart is"},{"startTime":2263.386,"endTime":2269.716,"body":"a best faith estimate at a higher level."},{"startTime":2270.016,"endTime":2275.026,"body":"Probably nothing lower than a month"},{"startTime":2270.016,"endTime":2275.026,"body":"that says, here are the features that we"},{"startTime":2275.026,"endTime":2280.596,"body":"anticipate delivering and milestones not"},{"startTime":2275.026,"endTime":2280.596,"body":"just features, but things like we'll start"},{"startTime":2281.016,"endTime":2283.086,"body":"the process of launching the product."},{"startTime":2283.086,"endTime":2286.156,"body":"We'll start whatever the"},{"startTime":2283.086,"endTime":2286.156,"body":"activities are put that in there."},{"startTime":2286.696,"endTime":2291.436,"body":"And the milestones, is this gonna be"},{"startTime":2286.696,"endTime":2291.436,"body":"slightly, slightly deviant thinking"},{"startTime":2291.436,"endTime":2295.306,"body":"here for those of you that have done"},{"startTime":2291.436,"endTime":2295.306,"body":"get charts before my, my milestones"},{"startTime":2295.306,"endTime":2299.066,"body":"would not be a point in time milestone"},{"startTime":2295.306,"endTime":2299.066,"body":"it, wouldn't say let's say, go live"},{"startTime":2299.096,"endTime":2301.856,"body":"is April 15th or whatever, right."},{"startTime":2301.946,"endTime":2306.626,"body":"It would have that milestone of April"},{"startTime":2301.946,"endTime":2306.626,"body":"15th with a dollar line that goes all"},{"startTime":2306.626,"endTime":2309.866,"body":"the way out to potentially June 15th,"},{"startTime":2306.626,"endTime":2309.866,"body":"because we're just starting the project."},{"startTime":2309.866,"endTime":2311.546,"body":"So my window's two months wide."},{"startTime":2312.026,"endTime":2312.386,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2312.776,"endTime":2316.916,"body":"And the messaging to leadership is"},{"startTime":2312.776,"endTime":2316.916,"body":"at this point with what we know,"},{"startTime":2317.006,"endTime":2320.876,"body":"we think we can land in that spot"},{"startTime":2317.006,"endTime":2320.876,"body":"somewhere between April and June."},{"startTime":2321.256,"endTime":2323.746,"body":"and as time passes, we learn more."},{"startTime":2324.121,"endTime":2325.171,"body":"That may change."},{"startTime":2325.921,"endTime":2327.331,"body":"It may get narrower."},{"startTime":2327.391,"endTime":2330.841,"body":"We may go from April to June, to"},{"startTime":2327.391,"endTime":2330.841,"body":"April, to may, eventually mm-hmm"},{"startTime":2331.081,"endTime":2332.311,"body":"and it, we may just stop there."},{"startTime":2332.761,"endTime":2337.201,"body":"And whenever it falls within that span is"},{"startTime":2332.761,"endTime":2337.201,"body":"where it falls and that's still a success."},{"startTime":2337.521,"endTime":2341.176,"body":"Well, hang on a second this isn't sound"},{"startTime":2337.521,"endTime":2341.176,"body":"much like the case against Gant charts."},{"startTime":2341.386,"endTime":2344.991,"body":"This, this just sounds like how to"},{"startTime":2341.386,"endTime":2344.991,"body":"incorporate it in your agile pro I, I tend"},{"startTime":2344.991,"endTime":2349.961,"body":"to think, if you're telling me, how long"},{"startTime":2344.991,"endTime":2349.961,"body":"does it take to do the entire XYZ project?"},{"startTime":2350.951,"endTime":2355.646,"body":"I kind of feel I would be remiss"},{"startTime":2350.951,"endTime":2355.646,"body":"if I didn't say wait a minute."},{"startTime":2355.646,"endTime":2359.426,"body":"We don't even know if X, Y, Z are"},{"startTime":2355.646,"endTime":2359.426,"body":"all the features that the customers."},{"startTime":2360.356,"endTime":2360.776,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":2360.776,"endTime":2361.166,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":2361.166,"endTime":2362.366,"body":"I missed to go back to that level."},{"startTime":2362.366,"endTime":2363.986,"body":"I missed the prompt altogether here."},{"startTime":2364.256,"endTime":2368.816,"body":"The case against G charge is the biggest"},{"startTime":2364.256,"endTime":2368.816,"body":"one is the obvious one, which is people"},{"startTime":2368.816,"endTime":2371.696,"body":"fixate on the dates on the get chart."},{"startTime":2371.696,"endTime":2374.816,"body":"Mm-hmm  and then they become"},{"startTime":2371.696,"endTime":2374.816,"body":"commitments immediately."},{"startTime":2374.926,"endTime":2375.216,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2375.221,"endTime":2377.606,"body":"That's the case against it"},{"startTime":2375.221,"endTime":2377.606,"body":"is these are not commitments."},{"startTime":2377.606,"endTime":2380.006,"body":"If you don't understand that you"},{"startTime":2377.606,"endTime":2380.006,"body":"shouldn't be doing get charts."},{"startTime":2380.366,"endTime":2381.536,"body":"That that's what I would say."},{"startTime":2381.816,"endTime":2382.536,"body":"that's the first thing."},{"startTime":2382.536,"endTime":2385.806,"body":"I mean, the other thing is that"},{"startTime":2382.536,"endTime":2385.806,"body":"the, the, this assumes that"},{"startTime":2385.806,"endTime":2388.311,"body":"everything  dude is assumes more."},{"startTime":2388.401,"endTime":2391.401,"body":"It not only is assume that everything"},{"startTime":2388.401,"endTime":2391.401,"body":"that's that's gonna happen."},{"startTime":2391.551,"endTime":2394.311,"body":"It also assumes all the"},{"startTime":2391.551,"endTime":2394.311,"body":"dependencies are known up front."},{"startTime":2394.521,"endTime":2394.761,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2394.791,"endTime":2395.001,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2395.001,"endTime":2395.481,"body":"Which you don't."},{"startTime":2396.096,"endTime":2398.586,"body":"It's the stuff you don't know,"},{"startTime":2396.096,"endTime":2398.586,"body":"it's the unknown unknowns."},{"startTime":2399.036,"endTime":2399.816,"body":"So what do you do?"},{"startTime":2399.876,"endTime":2402.696,"body":"You put in a big, big,"},{"startTime":2399.876,"endTime":2402.696,"body":"old fudge factor, right?"},{"startTime":2402.906,"endTime":2406.231,"body":"So we can go live anywhere"},{"startTime":2402.906,"endTime":2406.231,"body":"between February and November."},{"startTime":2406.381,"endTime":2406.441,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2406.441,"endTime":2407.881,"body":"That's too wide of a fudge factor."},{"startTime":2407.941,"endTime":2408.241,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2408.241,"endTime":2410.586,"body":"Well, as a product person,"},{"startTime":2408.241,"endTime":2410.586,"body":"I don't like padding."},{"startTime":2411.276,"endTime":2416.496,"body":"Like I'll, I'll add the padding"},{"startTime":2411.276,"endTime":2416.496,"body":"if necessary padding in the way"},{"startTime":2416.501,"endTime":2420.756,"body":"of these are the other initiatives"},{"startTime":2416.501,"endTime":2420.756,"body":"that the team is involved in that"},{"startTime":2420.756,"endTime":2422.166,"body":"are more important than this."},{"startTime":2422.886,"endTime":2427.956,"body":"And we could go offline because"},{"startTime":2422.886,"endTime":2427.956,"body":"we're engaged in X, Y, Z,"},{"startTime":2428.116,"endTime":2432.916,"body":"I'll engage leadership from the"},{"startTime":2428.116,"endTime":2432.916,"body":"perspective of don't you think these"},{"startTime":2432.916,"endTime":2434.176,"body":"other things are more important?"},{"startTime":2434.226,"endTime":2435.846,"body":"Leave that stuff to me."},{"startTime":2436.266,"endTime":2441.546,"body":"I don't need the team to add a, a"},{"startTime":2436.266,"endTime":2441.546,"body":"third on top of their estimate and"},{"startTime":2441.546,"endTime":2446.136,"body":"to pat things down because they know"},{"startTime":2441.546,"endTime":2446.136,"body":"that I'll pat things down anyway."},{"startTime":2446.136,"endTime":2448.176,"body":"So the padded estimates"},{"startTime":2446.136,"endTime":2448.176,"body":"are actually padded."},{"startTime":2448.176,"endTime":2449.016,"body":"I don't need all that."},{"startTime":2449.016,"endTime":2453.806,"body":"I need clean estimates as clean"},{"startTime":2449.016,"endTime":2453.806,"body":"as possible because I'm gonna"},{"startTime":2453.806,"endTime":2458.116,"body":"try to align them, , around,"},{"startTime":2453.806,"endTime":2458.116,"body":", the expectation of scope."},{"startTime":2458.416,"endTime":2463.546,"body":"That's what I'm gonna align on is,"},{"startTime":2458.416,"endTime":2463.546,"body":"Hey, can you deliver the ability"},{"startTime":2463.596,"endTime":2465.306,"body":"to do feature X with this customer?"},{"startTime":2465.576,"endTime":2466.626,"body":"Yes, I can."},{"startTime":2466.896,"endTime":2472.886,"body":"But feature X, to me, sounds like number"},{"startTime":2466.896,"endTime":2472.886,"body":"one, number two, not number 3, 4, 5."},{"startTime":2473.386,"endTime":2477.076,"body":"So if we're just talking about number"},{"startTime":2473.386,"endTime":2477.076,"body":"one and two, yes, we can deliver feature"},{"startTime":2477.076,"endTime":2479.136,"body":"X and that's what we'll rally around."},{"startTime":2479.226,"endTime":2484.636,"body":"And I don't need to talk to"},{"startTime":2479.226,"endTime":2484.636,"body":"sales, VP, customer advocate,"},{"startTime":2484.806,"endTime":2487.686,"body":"representative support rep, whatever."},{"startTime":2487.776,"endTime":2491.626,"body":"I will talk to the customer"},{"startTime":2487.776,"endTime":2491.626,"body":"who asks for that feature."},{"startTime":2492.126,"endTime":2495.476,"body":"And I will show them every two"},{"startTime":2492.126,"endTime":2495.476,"body":"weeks that we're done what we've"},{"startTime":2495.481,"endTime":2497.396,"body":"done until they are satisfied."},{"startTime":2497.401,"endTime":2502.556,"body":"And we'll keep working on that until"},{"startTime":2497.401,"endTime":2502.556,"body":"either, either until they're satisfied"},{"startTime":2502.856,"endTime":2508.256,"body":"or until I get new marching orders from"},{"startTime":2502.856,"endTime":2508.256,"body":"the higher ups in the organization."},{"startTime":2508.266,"endTime":2511.806,"body":"Because at some point I'm tying into"},{"startTime":2508.266,"endTime":2511.806,"body":"the company vision, which brings"},{"startTime":2511.806,"endTime":2514.386,"body":"a product vision, which brings"},{"startTime":2511.806,"endTime":2514.386,"body":"the features, which brings etc."},{"startTime":2514.536,"endTime":2514.836,"body":"Cetera."},{"startTime":2515.646,"endTime":2515.796,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2515.796,"endTime":2520.746,"body":"So that pro uh, view and approach"},{"startTime":2515.796,"endTime":2520.746,"body":"that you outline absolutely has merit."},{"startTime":2520.776,"endTime":2525.886,"body":"I mean, that's valid getting raw estimates"},{"startTime":2520.776,"endTime":2525.886,"body":"or absolute estimates without any padding"},{"startTime":2525.906,"endTime":2527.376,"body":"and then doing your own thing with them."},{"startTime":2527.376,"endTime":2527.946,"body":"That's fine."},{"startTime":2528.276,"endTime":2533.046,"body":"But before you do that, should those"},{"startTime":2528.276,"endTime":2533.046,"body":"estimates include things like a"},{"startTime":2533.046,"endTime":2535.476,"body":"variance for people being out sick?"},{"startTime":2535.476,"endTime":2539.986,"body":"I mean, I know we got whacked sideways"},{"startTime":2535.476,"endTime":2539.986,"body":"on COVID hit but even now with re"},{"startTime":2539.986,"endTime":2543.631,"body":"infections and everyth people, people"},{"startTime":2539.986,"endTime":2543.631,"body":"take time off,  at the drop of a hat."},{"startTime":2543.631,"endTime":2544.621,"body":"No, no plan."},{"startTime":2544.951,"endTime":2545.251,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2545.251,"endTime":2549.781,"body":"So there's a certain amount of flex,"},{"startTime":2545.251,"endTime":2549.781,"body":"I would say that needs to be added."},{"startTime":2549.781,"endTime":2552.981,"body":"Well,  let's argue the I feel"},{"startTime":2549.781,"endTime":2552.981,"body":"like I'm effectively arguing"},{"startTime":2552.981,"endTime":2554.241,"body":"the Gantt chart side of things."},{"startTime":2554.451,"endTime":2558.111,"body":"You should know how much sick"},{"startTime":2554.451,"endTime":2558.111,"body":"time your employees have."},{"startTime":2558.261,"endTime":2562.281,"body":"You should know how much vacation"},{"startTime":2558.261,"endTime":2562.281,"body":"time your employees have in aggregate."},{"startTime":2562.461,"endTime":2568.301,"body":"So if my employees typically have"},{"startTime":2562.461,"endTime":2568.301,"body":"30 days of vacation per calendar"},{"startTime":2568.301,"endTime":2572.801,"body":"year plus X amount of sick days,"},{"startTime":2568.301,"endTime":2572.801,"body":"seven days, I don't know, seven days"},{"startTime":2572.856,"endTime":2577.656,"body":"so my employees typically have five"},{"startTime":2572.856,"endTime":2577.656,"body":"weeks of vacation and I have, this is"},{"startTime":2577.656,"endTime":2579.096,"body":"actually, actually, this is a good number."},{"startTime":2579.456,"endTime":2583.916,"body":"My employees typically have five"},{"startTime":2579.456,"endTime":2583.916,"body":"weeks of vacation for the whole year"},{"startTime":2584.726,"endTime":2586.706,"body":"and I have six people on my team."},{"startTime":2587.186,"endTime":2587.546,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2587.846,"endTime":2591.596,"body":"That means I should plan two"},{"startTime":2587.846,"endTime":2591.596,"body":"and a half days cuz it's six"},{"startTime":2591.596,"endTime":2593.006,"body":"people, 12 months, whatever."},{"startTime":2593.016,"endTime":2593.176,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2593.181,"endTime":2593.246,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2593.306,"endTime":2595.526,"body":"I should plan two and a half"},{"startTime":2593.306,"endTime":2595.526,"body":"days out of every single sprint"},{"startTime":2595.526,"endTime":2597.116,"body":"I have two and a half days."},{"startTime":2597.986,"endTime":2602.576,"body":"I don't have productivity for, so if I'm"},{"startTime":2597.986,"endTime":2602.576,"body":"trying to do a Gantt chart, you shouldn't"},{"startTime":2602.576,"endTime":2606.906,"body":"be planning for 100% utilization."},{"startTime":2607.406,"endTime":2608.486,"body":"That's where I'm trying to go."},{"startTime":2608.546,"endTime":2610.706,"body":"Utilization, capacity,"},{"startTime":2608.546,"endTime":2610.706,"body":"whatever you wanna call it."},{"startTime":2610.706,"endTime":2610.886,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2611.426,"endTime":2614.096,"body":"You should not be planning for a hundred"},{"startTime":2611.426,"endTime":2614.096,"body":"percent cause you're never going."},{"startTime":2614.096,"endTime":2615.896,"body":"It's not, that's not realistic."},{"startTime":2616.436,"endTime":2617.156,"body":"No, you're right."},{"startTime":2617.156,"endTime":2619.436,"body":"I mean, so you've outlined"},{"startTime":2617.156,"endTime":2619.436,"body":"the known knowns, right?"},{"startTime":2619.436,"endTime":2623.006,"body":"I mean, we know people have"},{"startTime":2619.436,"endTime":2623.006,"body":"PTO, et cetera, so yeah."},{"startTime":2623.036,"endTime":2624.086,"body":"It's the unknown unknowns."},{"startTime":2624.086,"endTime":2624.266,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2624.266,"endTime":2628.376,"body":"We don't know how many people are"},{"startTime":2624.266,"endTime":2628.376,"body":"gonna get, get off sick, like right."},{"startTime":2628.381,"endTime":2631.616,"body":"If they go, do they only take three"},{"startTime":2628.381,"endTime":2631.616,"body":"days or sick time that they have"},{"startTime":2631.616,"endTime":2635.486,"body":"allocated for their year or are they"},{"startTime":2631.616,"endTime":2635.486,"body":"really out for two weeks for COVID?"},{"startTime":2635.546,"endTime":2635.996,"body":"I, I don't know."},{"startTime":2635.996,"endTime":2636.356,"body":"Whatever."},{"startTime":2636.416,"endTime":2636.626,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2636.776,"endTime":2637.066,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2637.066,"endTime":2637.226,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2637.231,"endTime":2639.386,"body":"So there's a little bit of that as well."},{"startTime":2639.716,"endTime":2643.436,"body":"So that becomes non-scientific at"},{"startTime":2639.716,"endTime":2643.436,"body":"that point, but the example you"},{"startTime":2643.436,"endTime":2646.856,"body":"say, yeah, you could definitely"},{"startTime":2643.436,"endTime":2646.856,"body":"factor that in and you should, yeah."},{"startTime":2646.856,"endTime":2647.876,"body":"You should factor that in."},{"startTime":2647.876,"endTime":2648.116,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2648.116,"endTime":2653.166,"body":"But, but it should it should be generally"},{"startTime":2648.116,"endTime":2653.166,"body":"factored in because when, like what"},{"startTime":2653.166,"endTime":2656.286,"body":"you just said, when you have one sprint"},{"startTime":2653.166,"endTime":2656.286,"body":"where you're like, oh, well this sprint"},{"startTime":2656.566,"endTime":2660.496,"body":"it's the, I don't know, 4th of July"},{"startTime":2656.566,"endTime":2660.496,"body":"weekend, Christmas weekend, Christmas,"},{"startTime":2660.496,"endTime":2661.906,"body":"new year's break or whatever, like."},{"startTime":2662.641,"endTime":2666.001,"body":"you should pretty much expect, like"},{"startTime":2662.641,"endTime":2666.001,"body":"you might have one or two people on"},{"startTime":2666.001,"endTime":2670.351,"body":"your team that wanna work in that,"},{"startTime":2666.001,"endTime":2670.351,"body":"like whatever single people or whatever"},{"startTime":2670.351,"endTime":2673.271,"body":"that might wanna work in that the rest"},{"startTime":2670.351,"endTime":2673.271,"body":"of your team, you're gonna have three"},{"startTime":2673.271,"endTime":2676.361,"body":"quarter people out during that period."},{"startTime":2676.391,"endTime":2676.631,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2676.731,"endTime":2682.101,"body":"I feel there is a certain point of this"},{"startTime":2676.731,"endTime":2682.101,"body":"where you should expect, there should"},{"startTime":2682.101,"endTime":2687.561,"body":"be some familiarity based on your"},{"startTime":2682.101,"endTime":2687.561,"body":"experience that you should expect dips."},{"startTime":2687.681,"endTime":2687.801,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2687.951,"endTime":2688.671,"body":"Spikes and dips."},{"startTime":2688.911,"endTime":2695.801,"body":"But, but I feel if you are planning"},{"startTime":2688.911,"endTime":2695.801,"body":"for your normal amount of, vacation"},{"startTime":2695.911,"endTime":2700.121,"body":"away, whatever time in your calendar,"},{"startTime":2695.911,"endTime":2700.121,"body":"you can make up for the spikes"},{"startTime":2700.121,"endTime":2701.681,"body":"and dips, moving things around."},{"startTime":2702.401,"endTime":2702.701,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2702.701,"endTime":2707.041,"body":"Well, I'm expecting three days of"},{"startTime":2702.701,"endTime":2707.041,"body":"vacation between the whole team and"},{"startTime":2707.041,"endTime":2710.821,"body":"this two week period this sprint,"},{"startTime":2707.041,"endTime":2710.821,"body":"I had zero vacation then the next"},{"startTime":2710.821,"endTime":2712.471,"body":"sprint I had six hours of vacation."},{"startTime":2712.681,"endTime":2714.151,"body":"They should make up for each other."},{"startTime":2714.391,"endTime":2718.291,"body":"Likewise, four sprints"},{"startTime":2714.391,"endTime":2718.291,"body":"out over each other."},{"startTime":2718.561,"endTime":2722.971,"body":"You should make up for whatever"},{"startTime":2718.561,"endTime":2722.971,"body":"variances you have in the longer term."},{"startTime":2723.511,"endTime":2724.771,"body":"I, it comes out in the wash."},{"startTime":2724.771,"endTime":2725.641,"body":"I, I agree with you."},{"startTime":2725.641,"endTime":2725.911,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2725.911,"endTime":2729.271,"body":"But those things you can actually"},{"startTime":2725.911,"endTime":2729.271,"body":"account for what you can't account for"},{"startTime":2729.271,"endTime":2733.171,"body":"is things like once the project started,"},{"startTime":2729.271,"endTime":2733.171,"body":"you had people leave new people join."},{"startTime":2733.171,"endTime":2733.321,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2733.326,"endTime":2733.561,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2733.981,"endTime":2736.651,"body":"But having said that, let's"},{"startTime":2733.981,"endTime":2736.651,"body":"say you don't account for that."},{"startTime":2736.651,"endTime":2738.601,"body":"That's still something"},{"startTime":2736.651,"endTime":2738.601,"body":"you should really explain."},{"startTime":2739.021,"endTime":2739.381,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2739.381,"endTime":2742.411,"body":"Pointing to the Gantt chart and"},{"startTime":2739.381,"endTime":2742.411,"body":"tell whoever's looking at it."},{"startTime":2742.411,"endTime":2742.501,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2742.501,"endTime":2745.711,"body":"And listen, we had this"},{"startTime":2742.501,"endTime":2745.711,"body":"dip because of right."},{"startTime":2745.711,"endTime":2747.391,"body":"And we all know what"},{"startTime":2745.711,"endTime":2747.391,"body":"happens when someone leaves."},{"startTime":2747.421,"endTime":2747.601,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2747.701,"endTime":2749.051,"body":"The same way I feel about that."},{"startTime":2749.051,"endTime":2753.491,"body":"I feel about product management is"},{"startTime":2749.051,"endTime":2753.491,"body":"for example, if I'm tracking business"},{"startTime":2753.491,"endTime":2757.931,"body":"value on all my stories and I show"},{"startTime":2753.491,"endTime":2757.931,"body":"in the last two sprints, we had a"},{"startTime":2757.931,"endTime":2761.351,"body":"significant dip in business value deliver."},{"startTime":2761.951,"endTime":2762.641,"body":"Over time."},{"startTime":2763.235,"endTime":2767.225,"body":"I, as a product manager would come"},{"startTime":2763.235,"endTime":2767.225,"body":"to the product management meeting"},{"startTime":2767.405,"endTime":2771.445,"body":"and my leadership would say, Hey,"},{"startTime":2767.405,"endTime":2771.445,"body":"Brian how come these last two sprints"},{"startTime":2771.445,"endTime":2776.495,"body":"you've done a third to a half of what"},{"startTime":2771.445,"endTime":2776.495,"body":"the normal business value has been"},{"startTime":2776.495,"endTime":2780.875,"body":"like, oh, normally you deliver 20"},{"startTime":2776.495,"endTime":2780.875,"body":"points of business value per sprint."},{"startTime":2781.295,"endTime":2784.595,"body":"These last two sprints you've"},{"startTime":2781.295,"endTime":2784.595,"body":"delivered eight and 10."},{"startTime":2784.985,"endTime":2786.335,"body":"What's going on?"},{"startTime":2786.335,"endTime":2789.715,"body":"Why is there so low amount of"},{"startTime":2786.335,"endTime":2789.715,"body":"business value compared to the normal?"},{"startTime":2790.585,"endTime":2794.155,"body":"And I will say well, because"},{"startTime":2790.585,"endTime":2794.155,"body":"we've had a couple of."},{"startTime":2794.545,"endTime":2797.275,"body":"Technical upgrades that we've delayed."},{"startTime":2797.545,"endTime":2801.955,"body":"And we had a few architectural things"},{"startTime":2797.545,"endTime":2801.955,"body":"that have come up that we've delayed and"},{"startTime":2801.955,"endTime":2807.175,"body":"we really need to take some time and get"},{"startTime":2801.955,"endTime":2807.175,"body":"over these architectural hurdles to get"},{"startTime":2807.175,"endTime":2810.385,"body":"ahead, to get current with the technology."},{"startTime":2810.565,"endTime":2815.155,"body":"And we've dedicated a lot more time to"},{"startTime":2810.565,"endTime":2815.155,"body":"making sure that the team can bring the"},{"startTime":2815.155,"endTime":2819.405,"body":"architecture up the speed, so that we"},{"startTime":2815.155,"endTime":2819.405,"body":"aren't bothered with, end of life and"},{"startTime":2819.405,"endTime":2824.885,"body":"stuff like that like I I'm fine explain"},{"startTime":2819.405,"endTime":2824.885,"body":"it should be a one sentence explanation."},{"startTime":2825.515,"endTime":2827.315,"body":"And then we move on our next topic."},{"startTime":2827.475,"endTime":2828.855,"body":"it should be that quick, right?"},{"startTime":2828.86,"endTime":2831.015,"body":"It should prompt the"},{"startTime":2828.86,"endTime":2831.015,"body":"business to talk about it."},{"startTime":2831.515,"endTime":2832.295,"body":"I bring it up."},{"startTime":2832.325,"endTime":2833.255,"body":"I tell them a reason."},{"startTime":2833.255,"endTime":2834.395,"body":"And then we move on quickly."},{"startTime":2834.935,"endTime":2837.365,"body":"If somebody really wants to"},{"startTime":2834.935,"endTime":2837.365,"body":"dig into like, oh, did you"},{"startTime":2837.365,"endTime":2840.445,"body":"have to do a AWS migration now?"},{"startTime":2840.45,"endTime":2843.97,"body":"And not three months from now or whatever,"},{"startTime":2840.45,"endTime":2843.97,"body":"when it if somebody really wants to."},{"startTime":2844.31,"endTime":2845.86,"body":"Battle that out okay."},{"startTime":2846.1,"endTime":2849.58,"body":"You know, you really wanna get"},{"startTime":2846.1,"endTime":2849.58,"body":"into a technical discussion yeah."},{"startTime":2849.64,"endTime":2853.165,"body":"In a product meeting okay, we"},{"startTime":2849.64,"endTime":2853.165,"body":"can do that let me get you think"},{"startTime":2853.165,"endTime":2856.105,"body":"of like a directed development"},{"startTime":2853.165,"endTime":2856.105,"body":"or a CTO or somebody like that."},{"startTime":2856.285,"endTime":2860.125,"body":"If you really want, I will get them on"},{"startTime":2856.285,"endTime":2860.125,"body":"the call and they will make the case."},{"startTime":2860.625,"endTime":2863.475,"body":"Assuming I, the product"},{"startTime":2860.625,"endTime":2863.475,"body":"person cannot make the case."},{"startTime":2863.565,"endTime":2863.745,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2863.75,"endTime":2866.635,"body":"Maybe I'm in an organization where"},{"startTime":2863.75,"endTime":2866.635,"body":"your product, people are straight outta"},{"startTime":2866.635,"endTime":2870.765,"body":"college or whatever, what we talked"},{"startTime":2866.635,"endTime":2870.765,"body":"about a lot on the podcast, like your"},{"startTime":2870.765,"endTime":2874.095,"body":"product people don't, they don't really"},{"startTime":2870.765,"endTime":2874.095,"body":"know very much about technology then."},{"startTime":2874.095,"endTime":2874.605,"body":"Cool."},{"startTime":2874.665,"endTime":2877.575,"body":"You get your technology person"},{"startTime":2874.665,"endTime":2877.575,"body":"on the call and they can explain"},{"startTime":2877.575,"endTime":2879.125,"body":"why what the risk would be."},{"startTime":2879.13,"endTime":2879.905,"body":"If we did not."},{"startTime":2880.405,"endTime":2881.155,"body":"Overcome this hurdle."},{"startTime":2881.175,"endTime":2881.295,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2881.445,"endTime":2883.545,"body":"And, they can help you talk through it."},{"startTime":2883.625,"endTime":2887.815,"body":"The topic we were going into was"},{"startTime":2883.625,"endTime":2887.815,"body":"the case against, against arts."},{"startTime":2888.025,"endTime":2895.495,"body":"So to transition into doing a Gantt chart"},{"startTime":2888.025,"endTime":2895.495,"body":"versus doing, what you normally see in."},{"startTime":2896.29,"endTime":2902.34,"body":"Agile development or agile delivery"},{"startTime":2896.29,"endTime":2902.34,"body":"or scrum where you have, release maps,"},{"startTime":2902.67,"endTime":2905.67,"body":"story maps, roadmaps burn down charts."},{"startTime":2905.72,"endTime":2910.52,"body":"You have a lot of the different"},{"startTime":2905.72,"endTime":2910.52,"body":"ways of measuring what the teams"},{"startTime":2910.52,"endTime":2913.43,"body":"are up to different artifact"},{"startTime":2910.52,"endTime":2913.43,"body":"and forecasting or measuring."},{"startTime":2913.55,"endTime":2913.79,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":2914.72,"endTime":2921.105,"body":"So for me a again, in a product capacity,"},{"startTime":2914.72,"endTime":2921.105,"body":"if I'm gonna compare my, whatever, the"},{"startTime":2921.11,"endTime":2925.545,"body":"equivalent of a Gantt chart would be"},{"startTime":2921.11,"endTime":2925.545,"body":"to, what I would try to do is I would"},{"startTime":2925.545,"endTime":2928.185,"body":"compare a Gantt chart to a roadmap."},{"startTime":2928.815,"endTime":2929.745,"body":"That's what I would compare."},{"startTime":2929.745,"endTime":2933.66,"body":"Number one, if I had to do anything,"},{"startTime":2929.745,"endTime":2933.66,"body":"assuming I had to do anything."},{"startTime":2933.72,"endTime":2934.02,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2934.05,"endTime":2936.95,"body":"So, talk to me about how a Gantt chart."},{"startTime":2937.25,"endTime":2941.41,"body":"And a roadmap are different because"},{"startTime":2937.25,"endTime":2941.41,"body":"on if you look at the two of them"},{"startTime":2941.41,"endTime":2943.6,"body":"on paper, they look very similar."},{"startTime":2943.69,"endTime":2945.91,"body":"They do, they do look very similar."},{"startTime":2946.0,"endTime":2949.36,"body":"And I do agree by the way that"},{"startTime":2946.0,"endTime":2949.36,"body":"it's not one or the other."},{"startTime":2949.45,"endTime":2949.6,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2949.66,"endTime":2949.93,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2949.93,"endTime":2953.65,"body":"Sometimes people say that I, I"},{"startTime":2949.93,"endTime":2953.65,"body":"think fundamentally it's about"},{"startTime":2953.71,"endTime":2958.0,"body":"the granularity Gantt  charts"},{"startTime":2953.71,"endTime":2958.0,"body":"typically are not high level."},{"startTime":2958.0,"endTime":2961.15,"body":"People wanna see the"},{"startTime":2958.0,"endTime":2961.15,"body":"details in a Gantt chart."},{"startTime":2961.15,"endTime":2963.46,"body":"a roadmap can be high level."},{"startTime":2963.49,"endTime":2968.64,"body":"You don't necessarily wanna see that"},{"startTime":2963.49,"endTime":2968.64,"body":"every inch stone on, on the roadmap."},{"startTime":2968.64,"endTime":2968.7,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2969.0,"endTime":2971.1,"body":"there are tools that allow you to."},{"startTime":2971.745,"endTime":2973.395,"body":"Derive one from the other."},{"startTime":2973.455,"endTime":2979.995,"body":"So for example, if you had a reasonable"},{"startTime":2973.455,"endTime":2979.995,"body":"product roadmap, as you traverse down that"},{"startTime":2979.995,"endTime":2985.815,"body":"roadmap, you can then derive a GAT chart"},{"startTime":2979.995,"endTime":2985.815,"body":"without having to manually created sure."},{"startTime":2985.965,"endTime":2988.995,"body":"the specific tools do a better"},{"startTime":2985.965,"endTime":2988.995,"body":"job of that than others."},{"startTime":2989.025,"endTime":2990.585,"body":"Most ALM tools do not."},{"startTime":2990.915,"endTime":2995.145,"body":"There are extensions that you can use"},{"startTime":2990.915,"endTime":2995.145,"body":"for that, but they really don't because"},{"startTime":2995.145,"endTime":2999.98,"body":"they're sprint focused largely mm-hmm"},{"startTime":2995.145,"endTime":2999.98,"body":". , so things like feature plans and things"},{"startTime":2999.98,"endTime":3004.635,"body":"like that in, tools such as a Azure"},{"startTime":2999.98,"endTime":3004.635,"body":"DevOps, for instance, , they let you do"},{"startTime":3004.635,"endTime":3010.055,"body":"a feature plan, but it's flat meaning"},{"startTime":3004.635,"endTime":3010.055,"body":"it per feature feature a, this is your"},{"startTime":3010.055,"endTime":3014.135,"body":"plan, feature B this that's not, it's"},{"startTime":3010.055,"endTime":3014.135,"body":"not showing any dependencies, it's not"},{"startTime":3014.135,"endTime":3015.905,"body":"showing any phases, anything like that."},{"startTime":3016.475,"endTime":3020.795,"body":"You could feed all of those kinds"},{"startTime":3016.475,"endTime":3020.795,"body":"of things as work items on a"},{"startTime":3020.795,"endTime":3025.745,"body":"one-on-one or roll up basis into"},{"startTime":3020.795,"endTime":3025.745,"body":"something like aha for example."},{"startTime":3025.775,"endTime":3026.075,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3026.075,"endTime":3028.265,"body":"And having done that,"},{"startTime":3026.075,"endTime":3028.265,"body":"it works really well."},{"startTime":3028.655,"endTime":3033.785,"body":"so that people in aha, the leadership"},{"startTime":3028.655,"endTime":3033.785,"body":"can see a GT chart, cuz it's"},{"startTime":3033.785,"endTime":3035.465,"body":"nothing more than a series of bars."},{"startTime":3035.735,"endTime":3035.915,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3035.975,"endTime":3042.365,"body":"At a higher level that are fed from your"},{"startTime":3035.975,"endTime":3042.365,"body":"ALM and they will see progress on it."},{"startTime":3042.665,"endTime":3045.245,"body":"I usually ask in the book market"},{"startTime":3042.665,"endTime":3045.245,"body":"and refresh it  every time they"},{"startTime":3045.245,"endTime":3046.415,"body":"feel the itch to look at it."},{"startTime":3046.905,"endTime":3048.28,"body":"so that, that's the difference."},{"startTime":3048.285,"endTime":3049.39,"body":"It's the granularity."},{"startTime":3049.39,"endTime":3049.45,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3049.72,"endTime":3051.22,"body":"That's the first thing I, I would say."},{"startTime":3051.22,"endTime":3055.93,"body":"And the other thing I've already mentioned"},{"startTime":3051.22,"endTime":3055.93,"body":"it before, which is a product roadmap."},{"startTime":3056.635,"endTime":3060.985,"body":"Does not allow you to see dependencies"},{"startTime":3056.635,"endTime":3060.985,"body":"across different things in that roadmap."},{"startTime":3061.085,"endTime":3061.895,"body":"I would agree with that."},{"startTime":3061.945,"endTime":3062.905,"body":"On a roadmap."},{"startTime":3062.935,"endTime":3068.645,"body":"I would expect we are calling out"},{"startTime":3062.935,"endTime":3068.645,"body":"features of the application and when"},{"startTime":3068.645,"endTime":3074.145,"body":"we're calling out features, as we"},{"startTime":3068.645,"endTime":3074.145,"body":"implement each feature, we're deciding"},{"startTime":3074.265,"endTime":3076.725,"body":"when enough is enough for the feature."},{"startTime":3076.935,"endTime":3077.355,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":3077.635,"endTime":3078.745,"body":"Whereas a Gantt chart."},{"startTime":3078.745,"endTime":3082.645,"body":"I think the difference here for people"},{"startTime":3078.745,"endTime":3082.645,"body":"listening, who might be like, oh, a"},{"startTime":3082.645,"endTime":3086.015,"body":"roadmap with a list of features is"},{"startTime":3082.645,"endTime":3086.015,"body":"basically the same as a Gantt chart."},{"startTime":3086.125,"endTime":3087.445,"body":"It looks the same on paper."},{"startTime":3087.685,"endTime":3091.165,"body":"It's a bar that says when we started in a"},{"startTime":3087.685,"endTime":3091.165,"body":"bar that says when we ended the difference"},{"startTime":3091.165,"endTime":3097.265,"body":"is when my customer is satisfied and when"},{"startTime":3091.165,"endTime":3097.265,"body":"my, product manager has kind of negotiated"},{"startTime":3097.655,"endTime":3103.185,"body":"the end That could come up to the, I"},{"startTime":3097.655,"endTime":3103.185,"body":"guess it could come up to the sprint."},{"startTime":3103.185,"endTime":3105.445,"body":"They're doing it in,"},{"startTime":3103.185,"endTime":3105.445,"body":"I mean, it's flexible."},{"startTime":3105.475,"endTime":3106.225,"body":"It's very flexible."},{"startTime":3106.255,"endTime":3106.465,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3106.925,"endTime":3110.39,"body":"The argument here is the Gant"},{"startTime":3106.925,"endTime":3110.39,"body":"chart may be equally flexible."},{"startTime":3110.9,"endTime":3114.825,"body":"We may be going to the customer at the"},{"startTime":3110.9,"endTime":3114.825,"body":"end of every period of the Gant art"},{"startTime":3114.825,"endTime":3116.265,"body":"and saying like, Hey, is this enough?"},{"startTime":3116.805,"endTime":3117.795,"body":"Do you require more?"},{"startTime":3117.795,"endTime":3119.745,"body":"It, it can be."},{"startTime":3119.865,"endTime":3122.715,"body":"I haven't seen that very often,"},{"startTime":3119.865,"endTime":3122.715,"body":"but it can be you're right."},{"startTime":3122.715,"endTime":3122.895,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3122.9,"endTime":3123.345,"body":"You, yeah."},{"startTime":3123.345,"endTime":3124.125,"body":"I mean, you're right."},{"startTime":3124.125,"endTime":3127.575,"body":"Be because of the nature of Gant"},{"startTime":3124.125,"endTime":3127.575,"body":"art being planned so far in advance,"},{"startTime":3127.845,"endTime":3131.795,"body":"everything being planned in advance,"},{"startTime":3127.845,"endTime":3131.795,"body":"like you probably wouldn't get that."},{"startTime":3131.795,"endTime":3135.155,"body":"You would say, well, you're done when"},{"startTime":3131.795,"endTime":3135.155,"body":"the, the plan says that you're done"},{"startTime":3135.155,"endTime":3137.405,"body":"because you've implemented everything."},{"startTime":3137.905,"endTime":3138.145,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3138.145,"endTime":3140.755,"body":"that, and also the fact that"},{"startTime":3138.145,"endTime":3140.755,"body":"it's so onerous to keep a"},{"startTime":3140.755,"endTime":3142.435,"body":"Gantt chart updated throughout."},{"startTime":3142.485,"endTime":3144.045,"body":"I'd rather see the focus."},{"startTime":3144.675,"endTime":3147.165,"body":"I know we're deviating from"},{"startTime":3144.675,"endTime":3147.165,"body":"the topic at hand, which is"},{"startTime":3147.235,"endTime":3148.735,"body":"the case against Gantt charts."},{"startTime":3148.74,"endTime":3151.765,"body":"Or maybe if you flip it around,"},{"startTime":3148.74,"endTime":3151.765,"body":"you're in the right podcast."},{"startTime":3152.185,"endTime":3152.365,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":3152.365,"endTime":3156.375,"body":"If you flip it around though, it it's,"},{"startTime":3152.365,"endTime":3156.375,"body":"why not have a Gantt chart because the"},{"startTime":3156.375,"endTime":3158.595,"body":"Gant chart does not have a product focus."},{"startTime":3158.595,"endTime":3163.665,"body":"It does not to your point say to"},{"startTime":3158.595,"endTime":3163.665,"body":"the the end user is this enough?"},{"startTime":3163.755,"endTime":3163.875,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3163.905,"endTime":3164.205,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3164.205,"endTime":3168.185,"body":"And they may turn around and say, yeah,"},{"startTime":3164.205,"endTime":3168.185,"body":"we said, we wanted this other thing."},{"startTime":3168.725,"endTime":3172.025,"body":"We don't want it, or we don't"},{"startTime":3168.725,"endTime":3172.025,"body":"need it, or we don't need it now."},{"startTime":3172.275,"endTime":3174.49,"body":"So we can use it as is."},{"startTime":3174.49,"endTime":3176.14,"body":"And we'll see if, if we need it."},{"startTime":3176.41,"endTime":3177.67,"body":"So we need it later."},{"startTime":3177.7,"endTime":3181.0,"body":"It might be another project,"},{"startTime":3177.7,"endTime":3181.0,"body":"different budget or whatever."},{"startTime":3181.61,"endTime":3182.9,"body":", Gantt chart has none of that."},{"startTime":3182.97,"endTime":3183.74,"body":"Mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":3183.74,"endTime":3184.73,"body":"It simply has."},{"startTime":3184.73,"endTime":3188.09,"body":"We expect this to happen"},{"startTime":3184.73,"endTime":3188.09,"body":"at a certain point in time."},{"startTime":3188.59,"endTime":3192.79,"body":"If you think about a story map, like you,"},{"startTime":3188.59,"endTime":3192.79,"body":"when you draw like, am my epic are here."},{"startTime":3192.82,"endTime":3196.81,"body":"I, I don't remember my epics are on"},{"startTime":3192.82,"endTime":3196.81,"body":"rose and my stories are in columns"},{"startTime":3196.815,"endTime":3198.25,"body":"and you draw a circle around."},{"startTime":3198.3,"endTime":3201.3,"body":"I can't like, I'm do not doing this"},{"startTime":3198.3,"endTime":3201.3,"body":"justice, but you know what I'm talking"},{"startTime":3201.3,"endTime":3204.93,"body":"about, you are circle around whatever, and"},{"startTime":3201.3,"endTime":3204.93,"body":"you're saying, okay, this is release one."},{"startTime":3205.2,"endTime":3208.98,"body":"And you draw a circle around the"},{"startTime":3205.2,"endTime":3208.98,"body":"certain stories, that may span epics,"},{"startTime":3209.0,"endTime":3213.16,"body":"you say, well, this is release two"},{"startTime":3209.0,"endTime":3213.16,"body":"isn't that the same as a Gantt shark?"},{"startTime":3213.76,"endTime":3219.61,"body":"The, well, when you're doing that, right,"},{"startTime":3213.76,"endTime":3219.61,"body":"two things happen when you're doing that."},{"startTime":3219.61,"endTime":3222.07,"body":"You're saying these"},{"startTime":3219.61,"endTime":3222.07,"body":"stories that I've circled."},{"startTime":3222.49,"endTime":3223.93,"body":"We want that in a release."},{"startTime":3224.43,"endTime":3228.39,"body":"Is there a date with that release"},{"startTime":3224.43,"endTime":3228.39,"body":"at that point on your roadmap?"},{"startTime":3228.44,"endTime":3230.96,"body":", that's the question sometimes"},{"startTime":3228.44,"endTime":3230.96,"body":"there is, sometimes you say,"},{"startTime":3230.96,"endTime":3232.43,"body":"well, at the end of sprint 12."},{"startTime":3233.18,"endTime":3234.35,"body":"We'll we'll hope to get there."},{"startTime":3234.86,"endTime":3238.22,"body":"Just for the arguing perspective of"},{"startTime":3234.86,"endTime":3238.22,"body":"people listening, trying to support"},{"startTime":3238.22,"endTime":3242.69,"body":"agile, if there is a date, they probably"},{"startTime":3238.22,"endTime":3242.69,"body":"are not dates picked outta the year."},{"startTime":3242.72,"endTime":3244.16,"body":"They probably are real dates."},{"startTime":3244.66,"endTime":3245.05,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3245.59,"endTime":3248.59,"body":"They're probably like I have"},{"startTime":3245.59,"endTime":3248.59,"body":"a team on site at this date,"},{"startTime":3248.83,"endTime":3252.2,"body":"or I have to my budgeting runs"},{"startTime":3248.83,"endTime":3252.2,"body":"out at this date or whatever."},{"startTime":3252.35,"endTime":3255.14,"body":"They're probably real dates based"},{"startTime":3252.35,"endTime":3255.14,"body":"on real activities, not just."},{"startTime":3256.125,"endTime":3261.595,"body":"my salesperson promised X, Y, Z"},{"startTime":3256.125,"endTime":3261.595,"body":"functionality in eight weeks from now."},{"startTime":3261.625,"endTime":3263.9,"body":"it's probably not a"},{"startTime":3261.625,"endTime":3263.9,"body":"made up date like that."},{"startTime":3264.38,"endTime":3267.765,"body":"It's probably a date that actually has"},{"startTime":3264.38,"endTime":3267.765,"body":"something like we'll do as much as we can"},{"startTime":3267.765,"endTime":3271.975,"body":"to, support the privacy regulation that"},{"startTime":3267.765,"endTime":3271.975,"body":"was passed by the federal government."},{"startTime":3272.035,"endTime":3272.215,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3272.215,"endTime":3273.325,"body":"By XYZ date."},{"startTime":3273.505,"endTime":3274.225,"body":"Good examples."},{"startTime":3274.225,"endTime":3274.375,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3274.38,"endTime":3276.175,"body":"So there could be dates for real reasons."},{"startTime":3276.255,"endTime":3277.875,"body":"other than that, though, right?"},{"startTime":3277.875,"endTime":3280.275,"body":"If you have those great,"},{"startTime":3277.875,"endTime":3280.275,"body":"we work with those."},{"startTime":3280.485,"endTime":3285.375,"body":"If you don't have 'em there's flexibility"},{"startTime":3280.485,"endTime":3285.375,"body":"involved through negotiation, as far as"},{"startTime":3285.375,"endTime":3288.975,"body":"when that release could happen, mm-hmm"},{"startTime":3285.375,"endTime":3288.975,"body":"and it could go down several paths."},{"startTime":3288.975,"endTime":3293.145,"body":"It could be that as a product person, you"},{"startTime":3288.975,"endTime":3293.145,"body":"could say, well, we anticipated a release"},{"startTime":3293.145,"endTime":3297.945,"body":"with these six stories or whatever it"},{"startTime":3293.145,"endTime":3297.945,"body":"is, and we see that the team ran into"},{"startTime":3297.945,"endTime":3299.475,"body":"some headwinds with this one story."},{"startTime":3299.865,"endTime":3300.105,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3300.105,"endTime":3300.465,"body":"You know what?"},{"startTime":3300.465,"endTime":3305.235,"body":"We we'll take those other five and we'll"},{"startTime":3300.465,"endTime":3305.235,"body":"still go with, with that release or we"},{"startTime":3305.295,"endTime":3307.185,"body":"we'll put that release on hold, right."},{"startTime":3307.185,"endTime":3308.655,"body":"Until that six story is completed."},{"startTime":3309.495,"endTime":3309.585,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3309.585,"endTime":3312.425,"body":"In a get chart, you really"},{"startTime":3309.585,"endTime":3312.425,"body":"don't have that focus."},{"startTime":3312.43,"endTime":3315.425,"body":"You really only have a time based focus."},{"startTime":3315.875,"endTime":3316.025,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3316.03,"endTime":3321.055,"body":"And that I think is a detriment here"},{"startTime":3316.03,"endTime":3321.055,"body":"because people outside of the end of"},{"startTime":3321.055,"endTime":3325.255,"body":"the sphere of influence, if you like"},{"startTime":3321.055,"endTime":3325.255,"body":"of the team at a higher level, perhaps"},{"startTime":3325.525,"endTime":3328.645,"body":"were external, I would say external"},{"startTime":3325.525,"endTime":3328.645,"body":"to be safe or leadership certainly."},{"startTime":3329.005,"endTime":3329.425,"body":"Or."},{"startTime":3329.89,"endTime":3333.31,"body":"To be more accurate and pedantic it's"},{"startTime":3329.89,"endTime":3333.31,"body":"management, not so much leadership."},{"startTime":3333.58,"endTime":3336.37,"body":"Now they would look at that and say, on"},{"startTime":3333.58,"endTime":3336.37,"body":"your Gantt chart, you are supposed to be"},{"startTime":3336.37,"endTime":3339.0,"body":"done by this date why is that not done?"},{"startTime":3339.06,"endTime":3339.12,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3339.15,"endTime":3339.48,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3339.75,"endTime":3342.935,"body":"So it becomes an inquisition at that"},{"startTime":3339.75,"endTime":3342.935,"body":"stage and then when you go into the"},{"startTime":3343.475,"endTime":3349.355,"body":"organizations that use Gantt charts in"},{"startTime":3343.475,"endTime":3349.355,"body":"this way, typically have monthly stage"},{"startTime":3349.355,"endTime":3353.415,"body":"gate meetings and you go into a stage"},{"startTime":3349.355,"endTime":3353.415,"body":"gate meeting and you feel like all eyes"},{"startTime":3353.415,"endTime":3357.715,"body":"are on you because you have to explain"},{"startTime":3353.415,"endTime":3357.715,"body":"why what happened happened is, and it"},{"startTime":3357.715,"endTime":3359.725,"body":"feels pretty uncomfortable to be honest."},{"startTime":3359.815,"endTime":3362.635,"body":"Well, you have, I mean, even"},{"startTime":3359.815,"endTime":3362.635,"body":"in product, you have to explain"},{"startTime":3362.995,"endTime":3364.345,"body":"why things are changing."},{"startTime":3364.345,"endTime":3366.235,"body":"Well, I meant defend"},{"startTime":3364.345,"endTime":3366.235,"body":"not so much explanation."},{"startTime":3366.235,"endTime":3369.979,"body":"Well, yeah, no, I understand what you"},{"startTime":3366.235,"endTime":3369.979,"body":"mean, but again, I'm trying to draw,"},{"startTime":3370.429,"endTime":3371.899,"body":"I'm arguing on the side of Gant chart."},{"startTime":3371.929,"endTime":3372.139,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":3372.139,"endTime":3376.489,"body":"But even in the organization where"},{"startTime":3372.139,"endTime":3376.489,"body":"you, you are dealing with typical"},{"startTime":3376.489,"endTime":3381.619,"body":"all playing front Gantt charts versus"},{"startTime":3376.489,"endTime":3381.619,"body":"dealing with customer sprint to sprint."},{"startTime":3381.619,"endTime":3387.709,"body":"Like I would think that you could say in"},{"startTime":3381.619,"endTime":3387.709,"body":"this, in this spread of the Gantt chart,"},{"startTime":3387.769,"endTime":3392.509,"body":"I'm working with customer a and the next"},{"startTime":3387.769,"endTime":3392.509,"body":"spread of the Gantt chart, I'm working"},{"startTime":3392.509,"endTime":3396.829,"body":"with customer B and we're gonna get as"},{"startTime":3392.509,"endTime":3396.829,"body":"much done for customer a in this part of"},{"startTime":3396.829,"endTime":3401.819,"body":"the chart as possible before we move to"},{"startTime":3396.829,"endTime":3401.819,"body":"the next bar of the chart and deal with"},{"startTime":3401.939,"endTime":3407.129,"body":"customer B, like in that perspective,"},{"startTime":3401.939,"endTime":3407.129,"body":"you're sort of being agile in that you"},{"startTime":3407.219,"endTime":3411.559,"body":"are restricting your effort to everything"},{"startTime":3407.219,"endTime":3411.559,"body":"you can do for a certain persona"},{"startTime":3411.739,"endTime":3413.209,"body":"before you move to the next persona."},{"startTime":3413.419,"endTime":3417.684,"body":"So  you could envision a Gantt chart"},{"startTime":3413.419,"endTime":3417.684,"body":"from the perspective if the bar on"},{"startTime":3417.684,"endTime":3424.144,"body":"the chart is what customer are we"},{"startTime":3417.684,"endTime":3424.144,"body":"serving in, what timeframe then, we"},{"startTime":3424.149,"endTime":3427.924,"body":"could kind of argue back and forth"},{"startTime":3424.149,"endTime":3427.924,"body":"about like, is that enough time?"},{"startTime":3427.929,"endTime":3430.689,"body":"how do you know enough"},{"startTime":3427.929,"endTime":3430.689,"body":"time to please a customer?"},{"startTime":3431.019,"endTime":3434.389,"body":"The back and forth of that is like if"},{"startTime":3431.019,"endTime":3434.389,"body":"you only give two weeks for customer"},{"startTime":3434.389,"endTime":3438.429,"body":"C before you go on customer D who gets"},{"startTime":3434.389,"endTime":3438.429,"body":"six weeks Hey, is that really fair?"},{"startTime":3438.579,"endTime":3442.479,"body":"Like who, which is the more important"},{"startTime":3438.579,"endTime":3442.479,"body":"customer I guess you could do with money?"},{"startTime":3442.509,"endTime":3443.949,"body":"Which customer pays more, right."},{"startTime":3444.249,"endTime":3446.849,"body":"There are certain ways you"},{"startTime":3444.249,"endTime":3446.849,"body":"can try, to adopt this model."},{"startTime":3447.479,"endTime":3449.009,"body":"I'm kind of arguing all over the place."},{"startTime":3449.059,"endTime":3453.369,"body":"When you do a Gantt chart, I think you do"},{"startTime":3449.059,"endTime":3453.369,"body":"it from the perspective of, you do it from"},{"startTime":3453.369,"endTime":3460.449,"body":"the perspective of this is a complete plan"},{"startTime":3453.369,"endTime":3460.449,"body":"from the very, very, very start to the"},{"startTime":3460.449,"endTime":3466.449,"body":"very, very, very end so that we feel that"},{"startTime":3460.449,"endTime":3466.449,"body":"we are in control of the whole process."},{"startTime":3467.089,"endTime":3470.359,"body":"I think that's why you, we probably"},{"startTime":3467.089,"endTime":3470.359,"body":"should have started the podcast with"},{"startTime":3470.599,"endTime":3475.579,"body":"that's why you do a gang chart in"},{"startTime":3470.599,"endTime":3475.579,"body":"the very, very, very first place."},{"startTime":3475.584,"endTime":3480.439,"body":"So you feel, you have a good"},{"startTime":3475.584,"endTime":3480.439,"body":"understanding and by understanding,"},{"startTime":3480.439,"endTime":3485.779,"body":"I mean, control of the whole process"},{"startTime":3480.439,"endTime":3485.779,"body":"you got about to endeavor on."},{"startTime":3486.279,"endTime":3486.489,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3486.489,"endTime":3490.149,"body":"That's a valid reason why a lot"},{"startTime":3486.489,"endTime":3490.149,"body":"of organizations use Gantt charts."},{"startTime":3490.449,"endTime":3493.899,"body":"I, I think the other thing is if you"},{"startTime":3490.449,"endTime":3493.899,"body":"were to ask 10 organizations, why"},{"startTime":3493.904,"endTime":3498.234,"body":"you use Gantt charts, I don't know,"},{"startTime":3493.904,"endTime":3498.234,"body":"maybe seven, eight out of 10 might"},{"startTime":3498.234,"endTime":3500.034,"body":"say, because that's what you do."},{"startTime":3500.034,"endTime":3501.174,"body":"That's how you plan projects."},{"startTime":3501.414,"endTime":3504.174,"body":"In other words, this is how we"},{"startTime":3501.414,"endTime":3504.174,"body":"know how to do things, right."},{"startTime":3504.504,"endTime":3508.394,"body":"Because  people that are in that"},{"startTime":3504.504,"endTime":3508.394,"body":"level of management leadership,"},{"startTime":3508.514,"endTime":3509.954,"body":"if you're being gracious."},{"startTime":3509.984,"endTime":3510.134,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3510.324,"endTime":3510.984,"body":"Um, yeah."},{"startTime":3510.984,"endTime":3515.417,"body":"Uh, they grew up with this approach"},{"startTime":3510.984,"endTime":3515.417,"body":"of big requirements up front, right."},{"startTime":3515.417,"endTime":3516.437,"body":"Full planning up front."},{"startTime":3516.707,"endTime":3518.027,"body":"That's all they know."},{"startTime":3518.027,"endTime":3520.367,"body":"So that's why they want"},{"startTime":3518.027,"endTime":3520.367,"body":"you to create hand charts."},{"startTime":3521.147,"endTime":3523.217,"body":"And how do you move them away from that?"},{"startTime":3523.222,"endTime":3526.217,"body":"That's a, that's a podcast in"},{"startTime":3523.222,"endTime":3526.217,"body":"itself probably, but right."},{"startTime":3526.467,"endTime":3530.872,"body":"I think one thing that might help you"},{"startTime":3526.467,"endTime":3530.872,"body":"is to you not say no, obviously, right."},{"startTime":3531.322,"endTime":3533.782,"body":"But do a Gantt chart and."},{"startTime":3534.282,"endTime":3538.572,"body":"Get a commitment that these are"},{"startTime":3534.282,"endTime":3538.572,"body":"not something that are guarantees."},{"startTime":3538.632,"endTime":3540.042,"body":"These are just, they're gonna move."},{"startTime":3540.152,"endTime":3543.992,"body":"And don't position, is it, as"},{"startTime":3540.152,"endTime":3543.992,"body":"you know, these milestones I'm"},{"startTime":3543.992,"endTime":3546.842,"body":"showing you and these durations of"},{"startTime":3543.992,"endTime":3546.842,"body":"these activities, they might move."},{"startTime":3546.842,"endTime":3551.072,"body":"No, they will move because nobody"},{"startTime":3546.842,"endTime":3551.072,"body":"can guarantee when something will"},{"startTime":3551.072,"endTime":3552.272,"body":"start and when it will finish."},{"startTime":3552.332,"endTime":3552.572,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3552.872,"endTime":3553.322,"body":"So"},{"startTime":3553.422,"endTime":3557.477,"body":"I wonder if there's labels you can"},{"startTime":3553.422,"endTime":3557.477,"body":"apply when things move for example,"},{"startTime":3557.527,"endTime":3563.487,"body":", emergence of, , architecture, emergence"},{"startTime":3557.527,"endTime":3563.487,"body":"of regulations, emergence of priority,"},{"startTime":3563.597,"endTime":3568.447,"body":"business priorities emergence of,"},{"startTime":3563.597,"endTime":3568.447,"body":", different needs, technical needs"},{"startTime":3568.697,"endTime":3570.737,"body":", team needs, what, whatever it is."},{"startTime":3570.807,"endTime":3574.437,"body":"So when you go into , your big"},{"startTime":3570.807,"endTime":3574.437,"body":", quarterly or monthly or whatever,"},{"startTime":3574.437,"endTime":3577.857,"body":"big meaning you can say like, well,"},{"startTime":3574.437,"endTime":3577.857,"body":"we've had to change the Gantt chart."},{"startTime":3578.667,"endTime":3583.097,"body":"Again, assuming you can't change"},{"startTime":3578.667,"endTime":3583.097,"body":"your organization to be more"},{"startTime":3583.097,"endTime":3588.917,"body":"accepting of emergent changes to"},{"startTime":3583.097,"endTime":3588.917,"body":"your prioritization process, right."},{"startTime":3588.917,"endTime":3591.017,"body":"And that you're stuck with"},{"startTime":3588.917,"endTime":3591.017,"body":"Gant charts organizationally."},{"startTime":3591.017,"endTime":3591.797,"body":"You're stuck with GA."},{"startTime":3591.977,"endTime":3594.557,"body":"I think that's probably the, the main"},{"startTime":3591.977,"endTime":3594.557,"body":"reason we're talking about this topic."},{"startTime":3595.057,"endTime":3595.147,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3595.147,"endTime":3599.387,"body":"To try to shift us, , from drive"},{"startTime":3595.147,"endTime":3599.387,"body":"back into a neutral for a second."},{"startTime":3599.717,"endTime":3602.297,"body":"Gantt charts are  they're"},{"startTime":3599.717,"endTime":3602.297,"body":"not really roadmaps."},{"startTime":3602.397,"endTime":3608.627,"body":"I could see where an organization"},{"startTime":3602.397,"endTime":3608.627,"body":"could liken them to roadmaps."},{"startTime":3608.907,"endTime":3612.187,"body":"I was like, wow, you start process"},{"startTime":3608.907,"endTime":3612.187,"body":"a, you finish process a, you start"},{"startTime":3612.187,"endTime":3613.537,"body":"process B you finish process."},{"startTime":3613.567,"endTime":3615.277,"body":"It looks just like a roadmap."},{"startTime":3615.997,"endTime":3619.137,"body":"And it kind of does honestly it"},{"startTime":3615.997,"endTime":3619.137,"body":"kind of does look like a roadmap."},{"startTime":3619.477,"endTime":3621.902,"body":"if you think about roadmaps from"},{"startTime":3619.477,"endTime":3621.902,"body":"map perspective, but when you"},{"startTime":3621.902,"endTime":3623.282,"body":"start thinking about roadmaps."},{"startTime":3623.782,"endTime":3627.832,"body":"less as build functionality a and"},{"startTime":3623.782,"endTime":3627.832,"body":"then build functionality B and you"},{"startTime":3627.832,"endTime":3632.002,"body":"start thinking about your roadmap"},{"startTime":3627.832,"endTime":3632.002,"body":"from the perspective of solve customer"},{"startTime":3632.002,"endTime":3635.032,"body":"problem a and solve customer problem."},{"startTime":3635.032,"endTime":3640.542,"body":"B the Gantt chart starts"},{"startTime":3635.032,"endTime":3640.542,"body":"falling apart very quickly."},{"startTime":3640.547,"endTime":3640.752,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3641.082,"endTime":3641.592,"body":"Very quickly."},{"startTime":3641.652,"endTime":3645.642,"body":"Customer centric, focus and"},{"startTime":3641.652,"endTime":3645.642,"body":"Gantt charts do not mix,"},{"startTime":3646.002,"endTime":3650.592,"body":"yeah, you start having big problems and,"},{"startTime":3646.002,"endTime":3650.592,"body":", I would expect that your organization,"},{"startTime":3651.012,"endTime":3654.852,"body":"again, if it's built from the perspective"},{"startTime":3651.012,"endTime":3654.852,"body":"of the Gantt chart, your organization"},{"startTime":3654.852,"endTime":3659.412,"body":"will start having internal conflict"},{"startTime":3654.852,"endTime":3659.412,"body":"and falling apart at the same time."},{"startTime":3659.662,"endTime":3662.632,"body":"The other thing I wanted to, to go"},{"startTime":3659.662,"endTime":3662.632,"body":"into that we didn't talk about in"},{"startTime":3662.632,"endTime":3668.152,"body":"this podcast was the idea of, systems"},{"startTime":3662.632,"endTime":3668.152,"body":"thinking, because your Gantt chart, if"},{"startTime":3668.152,"endTime":3671.782,"body":"it's only dealing with a very specific"},{"startTime":3668.152,"endTime":3671.782,"body":"thing in the software, and it's not"},{"startTime":3671.787,"endTime":3678.522,"body":"looking at your entire organizational"},{"startTime":3671.787,"endTime":3678.522,"body":"and or systemic ecosystem, When dealing"},{"startTime":3678.522,"endTime":3680.562,"body":"with how we're gonna deal with changes."},{"startTime":3681.312,"endTime":3683.502,"body":"it's gonna fall short."},{"startTime":3684.002,"endTime":3684.182,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3684.182,"endTime":3689.852,"body":"So this is a relatively new, it's"},{"startTime":3684.182,"endTime":3689.852,"body":"not a relatively new concept."},{"startTime":3689.857,"endTime":3694.322,"body":"It's a relatively new application"},{"startTime":3689.857,"endTime":3694.322,"body":"of the concept of systems thinking."},{"startTime":3694.352,"endTime":3694.502,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3694.682,"endTime":3695.882,"body":"In planning."},{"startTime":3696.522,"endTime":3702.342,"body":"it's been used at a short term plan level"},{"startTime":3696.522,"endTime":3702.342,"body":"before quite quite extensively probably,"},{"startTime":3702.347,"endTime":3708.592,"body":"but, planning it for the whole initiative"},{"startTime":3702.347,"endTime":3708.592,"body":"that an organization's taking on and using"},{"startTime":3708.592,"endTime":3711.682,"body":"systems thinking is still in its infancy."},{"startTime":3711.682,"endTime":3712.222,"body":"Probably."},{"startTime":3712.402,"endTime":3712.492,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3712.552,"endTime":3714.382,"body":"Least from what I've"},{"startTime":3712.552,"endTime":3714.382,"body":"read, I might be wrong."},{"startTime":3714.382,"endTime":3716.872,"body":"And if I'm wrong, let us"},{"startTime":3714.382,"endTime":3716.872,"body":"know, in the comments."},{"startTime":3717.052,"endTime":3720.232,"body":"But I haven't seen that"},{"startTime":3717.052,"endTime":3720.232,"body":"very widely applied."},{"startTime":3720.602,"endTime":3724.412,"body":", what I have seen is, is you say at"},{"startTime":3720.602,"endTime":3724.412,"body":"a team level, people can go in and"},{"startTime":3724.622,"endTime":3728.512,"body":"start applying those principles"},{"startTime":3724.622,"endTime":3728.512,"body":"cuz they are solid principles."},{"startTime":3728.662,"endTime":3728.812,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3728.922,"endTime":3729.462,"body":"in, in."},{"startTime":3729.962,"endTime":3733.682,"body":"I don't even like the term micro planning"},{"startTime":3729.962,"endTime":3733.682,"body":"because it has negative connotation."},{"startTime":3733.802,"endTime":3735.932,"body":"Mm-hmm  but yeah, that's why"},{"startTime":3733.802,"endTime":3735.932,"body":"I've seen it used, I haven't"},{"startTime":3735.937,"endTime":3737.552,"body":"seen it used at a higher level."},{"startTime":3737.882,"endTime":3739.592,"body":"It's probably a good idea though."},{"startTime":3739.597,"endTime":3742.952,"body":"If you're coming in at a level where"},{"startTime":3739.597,"endTime":3742.952,"body":"you are influencing the organization"},{"startTime":3742.952,"endTime":3744.542,"body":"beyond just software development."},{"startTime":3745.322,"endTime":3745.502,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3745.502,"endTime":3748.892,"body":"I'm kind of torn because if you"},{"startTime":3745.502,"endTime":3748.892,"body":"haven't shown them the value"},{"startTime":3748.892,"endTime":3750.272,"body":"of it, you wouldn't get buyin."},{"startTime":3750.332,"endTime":3753.812,"body":"So you have to show 'em value in some"},{"startTime":3750.332,"endTime":3753.812,"body":"way, and then you might get buyin and"},{"startTime":3753.817,"endTime":3755.532,"body":"you could take it forward from there."},{"startTime":3755.652,"endTime":3758.407,"body":"Well, I think, I think you just, I"},{"startTime":3755.652,"endTime":3758.407,"body":"wanted to talk about Gantt charts"},{"startTime":3758.407,"endTime":3763.662,"body":"versus burn down charts because, the"},{"startTime":3758.407,"endTime":3763.662,"body":"equivalency there is, you said in the"},{"startTime":3763.662,"endTime":3766.992,"body":"Gantt chart would be, you said you"},{"startTime":3763.662,"endTime":3766.992,"body":"were gonna be done on this date and"},{"startTime":3766.992,"endTime":3768.882,"body":"you're not, or you are, or whatever."},{"startTime":3769.182,"endTime":3773.352,"body":"And the burn down chart would be you"},{"startTime":3769.182,"endTime":3773.352,"body":"said that you could be done with 24"},{"startTime":3773.357,"endTime":3775.782,"body":"points worth of functionality on X date."},{"startTime":3775.962,"endTime":3779.562,"body":"And I calculated in my Gant"},{"startTime":3775.962,"endTime":3779.562,"body":"chart, 24 points was this."},{"startTime":3780.432,"endTime":3783.192,"body":"Two or three features and"},{"startTime":3780.432,"endTime":3783.192,"body":"then you could be done."},{"startTime":3783.197,"endTime":3783.602,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":3783.607,"endTime":3787.662,"body":"That the Gantt chart, , versus"},{"startTime":3783.607,"endTime":3787.662,"body":"burndown like you, you, if you're"},{"startTime":3787.662,"endTime":3793.972,"body":"gonna, , equate a false equivalency on"},{"startTime":3787.662,"endTime":3793.972,"body":"paper, this is another one where I could"},{"startTime":3793.972,"endTime":3796.972,"body":"see you equating the two, for sure."},{"startTime":3797.002,"endTime":3802.642,"body":"It's one of the fallacies in, in"},{"startTime":3797.002,"endTime":3802.642,"body":"doing that is you knowing how,"},{"startTime":3802.642,"endTime":3803.872,"body":"what that rate's going to be."},{"startTime":3803.872,"endTime":3806.992,"body":"So your team's going to burn"},{"startTime":3803.872,"endTime":3806.992,"body":"down X number of story points"},{"startTime":3806.992,"endTime":3808.432,"body":"over these many days, right?"},{"startTime":3808.492,"endTime":3811.492,"body":"That's not known, that's"},{"startTime":3808.492,"endTime":3811.492,"body":"not necessarily known."},{"startTime":3811.672,"endTime":3814.582,"body":"You can look at heuristics and"},{"startTime":3811.672,"endTime":3814.582,"body":"say this historically, they've"},{"startTime":3814.582,"endTime":3818.602,"body":"done that, but that's with those"},{"startTime":3814.582,"endTime":3818.602,"body":"requirements, these are not the same."},{"startTime":3818.962,"endTime":3822.592,"body":"So, I mean, I I'll like, again, like I'll,"},{"startTime":3818.962,"endTime":3822.592,"body":"I'll bring my product bent focus to this"},{"startTime":3822.592,"endTime":3826.277,"body":"one is let's say we're tracking business"},{"startTime":3822.592,"endTime":3826.277,"body":"value and we're tracking velocity, right?"},{"startTime":3826.277,"endTime":3831.227,"body":"Your work crimes have both, they might"},{"startTime":3826.277,"endTime":3831.227,"body":"both be stable sprint over sprint."},{"startTime":3831.527,"endTime":3834.827,"body":"You might generally do about the"},{"startTime":3831.527,"endTime":3834.827,"body":"same amount sprint over sprint."},{"startTime":3834.827,"endTime":3836.657,"body":"I mean, that would be"},{"startTime":3834.827,"endTime":3836.657,"body":"the best scenario here."},{"startTime":3837.157,"endTime":3839.457,"body":"but, , should you manage deadlines?"},{"startTime":3839.727,"endTime":3840.597,"body":"That kind of stuff, like"},{"startTime":3841.097,"endTime":3844.377,"body":"let's use an analogy for that"},{"startTime":3841.097,"endTime":3844.377,"body":"specific, scenario here, right?"},{"startTime":3844.377,"endTime":3848.967,"body":"So, so you're running a, a marathon"},{"startTime":3844.377,"endTime":3848.967,"body":"26 miles typically, I think."},{"startTime":3848.967,"endTime":3849.177,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":3849.182,"endTime":3854.397,"body":"So 26 miles and you're tracking"},{"startTime":3849.182,"endTime":3854.397,"body":"how many steps you're taking."},{"startTime":3854.897,"endTime":3856.847,"body":". I don't know every hour or whatever it is."},{"startTime":3856.847,"endTime":3857.087,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3857.092,"endTime":3859.517,"body":"Every, every mile, every mile,"},{"startTime":3857.092,"endTime":3859.517,"body":"every mile, every mile, sorry."},{"startTime":3859.517,"endTime":3859.757,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3859.757,"endTime":3861.017,"body":"Every mile, every mile."},{"startTime":3861.017,"endTime":3864.667,"body":"So the first time when you, you set"},{"startTime":3861.017,"endTime":3864.667,"body":"off from the the opening, like the,"},{"startTime":3864.777,"endTime":3868.077,"body":"the pistol, you, you gungho, or"},{"startTime":3864.777,"endTime":3868.077,"body":"you're not depending on how you're"},{"startTime":3868.077,"endTime":3869.247,"body":"pace yourself, you just hit it."},{"startTime":3869.247,"endTime":3872.817,"body":"Like you just hit both the values"},{"startTime":3869.247,"endTime":3872.817,"body":"in one, in one, in one track."},{"startTime":3872.997,"endTime":3874.707,"body":"So you're tracking the number of steps."},{"startTime":3874.797,"endTime":3877.307,"body":"Mm-hmm,  the amount of time"},{"startTime":3874.797,"endTime":3877.307,"body":"it took you for that mile."},{"startTime":3877.487,"endTime":3880.697,"body":"And you're tracking the"},{"startTime":3877.487,"endTime":3880.697,"body":"number of miles total."},{"startTime":3880.847,"endTime":3882.857,"body":"You're tracking all, every"},{"startTime":3880.847,"endTime":3882.857,"body":"value you're tracking now."},{"startTime":3882.857,"endTime":3883.417,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":3883.422,"endTime":3884.087,"body":"So here we go."},{"startTime":3884.147,"endTime":3884.687,"body":"Like I'm."},{"startTime":3885.197,"endTime":3885.467,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3885.472,"endTime":3888.557,"body":"So how would that work out"},{"startTime":3885.472,"endTime":3888.557,"body":"mile over mile, over mile."},{"startTime":3888.797,"endTime":3892.217,"body":"And does that then project out"},{"startTime":3888.797,"endTime":3892.217,"body":"in a linear fashion to when"},{"startTime":3892.222,"endTime":3893.537,"body":"you're gonna finish the marathon?"},{"startTime":3893.537,"endTime":3896.207,"body":"It, it doesn't  well, the"},{"startTime":3893.537,"endTime":3896.207,"body":"Kenyans have proven it doesn't"},{"startTime":3896.207,"endTime":3897.197,"body":"I really know it doesn't."},{"startTime":3897.197,"endTime":3897.917,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":3898.047,"endTime":3898.397,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3898.517,"endTime":3898.997,"body":"So, yeah."},{"startTime":3898.997,"endTime":3901.997,"body":"So I, I mean, that analogy was"},{"startTime":3898.997,"endTime":3901.997,"body":"just really, just to point out the"},{"startTime":3902.002,"endTime":3905.447,"body":"fallacy, the list, which, which one"},{"startTime":3902.002,"endTime":3905.447,"body":"of those is your Gantt chart build"},{"startTime":3905.452,"endTime":3907.457,"body":"off of is built off of your steps."},{"startTime":3907.847,"endTime":3911.687,"body":"It's built off your time to miles"},{"startTime":3907.847,"endTime":3911.687,"body":"or is it built off your miles?"},{"startTime":3911.927,"endTime":3917.927,"body":"Like regardless of which, which"},{"startTime":3911.927,"endTime":3917.927,"body":"I feel we're transitioning to the"},{"startTime":3917.927,"endTime":3919.967,"body":"case against Gant charts again."},{"startTime":3920.027,"endTime":3920.237,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3920.237,"endTime":3924.242,"body":"We are, , trying to summarize the"},{"startTime":3920.237,"endTime":3924.242,"body":"topic because your Gantt chart could be"},{"startTime":3924.662,"endTime":3927.662,"body":"published off of the number of steps."},{"startTime":3927.692,"endTime":3928.112,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":3928.502,"endTime":3934.492,"body":"Your Gantt chart could be published off of"},{"startTime":3928.502,"endTime":3934.492,"body":"the number of miles, which could be short."},{"startTime":3934.552,"endTime":3938.902,"body":"I mean, if you're in a 5k three miles"},{"startTime":3934.552,"endTime":3938.902,"body":"and then Ooh, Gantt chart's over."},{"startTime":3939.022,"endTime":3939.112,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3939.162,"endTime":3942.572,"body":"Or your Gantt chart could be"},{"startTime":3939.162,"endTime":3942.572,"body":"on the number of steps up."},{"startTime":3942.572,"endTime":3946.952,"body":"I which game, which shell"},{"startTime":3942.572,"endTime":3946.952,"body":"game are you gonna play?"},{"startTime":3947.132,"endTime":3947.912,"body":"That's exactly right."},{"startTime":3947.912,"endTime":3948.722,"body":"With your game chart."},{"startTime":3949.142,"endTime":3949.472,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3949.502,"endTime":3951.542,"body":"Cuz these professional runners, they."},{"startTime":3952.042,"endTime":3953.542,"body":"I don't wanna use the word manipulate."},{"startTime":3953.702,"endTime":3957.662,"body":"they will vary up all these"},{"startTime":3953.702,"endTime":3957.662,"body":"things, including their stride"},{"startTime":3957.662,"endTime":3958.952,"body":"length, things like that."},{"startTime":3959.312,"endTime":3959.582,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3959.642,"endTime":3963.452,"body":"Based on a number of variables based"},{"startTime":3959.642,"endTime":3963.452,"body":"on the weather, based on what the"},{"startTime":3963.457,"endTime":3966.542,"body":"competition's doing based on whether"},{"startTime":3963.457,"endTime":3966.542,"body":"it's a hail uphill or downhill."},{"startTime":3966.662,"endTime":3966.842,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3967.142,"endTime":3970.082,"body":"Based on how they're feeling, uh,"},{"startTime":3967.142,"endTime":3970.082,"body":"that, that piece is completely"},{"startTime":3970.082,"endTime":3971.072,"body":"out from our discussion."},{"startTime":3971.072,"endTime":3974.402,"body":"Also, also gut feel also based on how"},{"startTime":3971.072,"endTime":3974.402,"body":"close they are to the finish line."},{"startTime":3974.492,"endTime":3975.512,"body":"Of course, of course."},{"startTime":3975.512,"endTime":3975.662,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3975.667,"endTime":3978.152,"body":"Because that, because they,"},{"startTime":3975.667,"endTime":3978.152,"body":"because everyone sprints sure."},{"startTime":3978.152,"endTime":3979.112,"body":"Regardless how tired they."},{"startTime":3979.952,"endTime":3982.112,"body":"When they see the finish line,"},{"startTime":3979.952,"endTime":3982.112,"body":"everyone sprints to the finish."},{"startTime":3982.112,"endTime":3982.382,"body":"Line's right."},{"startTime":3982.442,"endTime":3983.222,"body":"That's very true."},{"startTime":3983.282,"endTime":3984.152,"body":"That's very true."},{"startTime":3984.242,"endTime":3986.672,"body":"Some people leave more"},{"startTime":3984.242,"endTime":3986.672,"body":"in the tank than others."},{"startTime":3987.002,"endTime":3987.332,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3987.362,"endTime":3987.932,"body":"But yeah."},{"startTime":3988.532,"endTime":3993.332,"body":"So leaving just this, this kind"},{"startTime":3988.532,"endTime":3993.332,"body":"of gut feel factor out of it,"},{"startTime":3994.112,"endTime":3995.972,"body":"too many variables in this."},{"startTime":3996.002,"endTime":3996.302,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":3996.307,"endTime":4001.972,"body":"So multi-variate analysis maybe, but"},{"startTime":3996.307,"endTime":4001.972,"body":"even that assumes linearity and that"},{"startTime":4001.972,"endTime":4005.482,"body":"is what's different in developing"},{"startTime":4001.972,"endTime":4005.482,"body":"software is you seldom have it."},{"startTime":4005.482,"endTime":4008.032,"body":"You, you really don't have"},{"startTime":4005.482,"endTime":4008.032,"body":"it and you don't have it."},{"startTime":4008.062,"endTime":4011.992,"body":"Even if the team is the same, but it's"},{"startTime":4008.062,"endTime":4011.992,"body":"a different application you're building"},{"startTime":4012.232,"endTime":4016.072,"body":"because you are learning and you're"},{"startTime":4012.232,"endTime":4016.072,"body":"discovering new things all along."},{"startTime":4016.572,"endTime":4020.222,"body":"As you build things and you learn"},{"startTime":4016.572,"endTime":4020.222,"body":"things you're gonna be changing."},{"startTime":4020.722,"endTime":4021.502,"body":"I don't know your estimate."},{"startTime":4021.507,"endTime":4022.972,"body":"I don't wanna even"},{"startTime":4021.507,"endTime":4022.972,"body":"wanna say your estimate."},{"startTime":4023.792,"endTime":4026.162,"body":"Like re projection's"},{"startTime":4023.792,"endTime":4026.162,"body":"probably a better way to go."},{"startTime":4026.162,"endTime":4026.322,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4026.322,"endTime":4026.442,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4026.442,"endTime":4027.962,"body":"Like your forecast, your forecast."},{"startTime":4027.962,"endTime":4029.042,"body":"That's another way to say it."},{"startTime":4029.482,"endTime":4032.082,"body":"I think the summary for both of"},{"startTime":4029.482,"endTime":4032.082,"body":"us is like, don't do can, like"},{"startTime":4032.082,"endTime":4032.962,"body":"can't trust are ridiculous."},{"startTime":4032.962,"endTime":4033.842,"body":"Don't do Gantt charts."},{"startTime":4034.342,"endTime":4035.542,"body":"like, that's a good summary."},{"startTime":4035.592,"endTime":4036.417,"body":"Don't do 'em because"},{"startTime":4035.592,"endTime":4036.417,"body":"they're not value added."},{"startTime":4036.417,"endTime":4036.418,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4036.418,"endTime":4039.583,"body":"They say, well, I mean, I mean like, okay,"},{"startTime":4036.418,"endTime":4039.583,"body":"you're gonna do them let's talk about how"},{"startTime":4039.583,"endTime":4042.808,"body":"you're gonna do them are you gonna pick"},{"startTime":4039.583,"endTime":4042.808,"body":"the number of steps, to run your marathon?"},{"startTime":4042.808,"endTime":4044.548,"body":"Are you gonna pick the"},{"startTime":4042.808,"endTime":4044.548,"body":"miles to run your marathon?"},{"startTime":4044.553,"endTime":4048.608,"body":"Are you gonna if you're gonna pick"},{"startTime":4044.553,"endTime":4048.608,"body":"miles in Gantt chart okay, are we"},{"startTime":4048.608,"endTime":4050.498,"body":"gonna use miles for everything else?"},{"startTime":4050.498,"endTime":4051.878,"body":"Like, well, how many miles does it take?"},{"startTime":4051.878,"endTime":4053.198,"body":"You learn in a new technology?"},{"startTime":4053.468,"endTime":4054.608,"body":"How are you gonna represent that?"},{"startTime":4055.098,"endTime":4059.308,"body":"Even, if we break the three"},{"startTime":4055.098,"endTime":4059.308,"body":"different things down to say, The"},{"startTime":4059.308,"endTime":4063.058,"body":"effectiveness of your solution,"},{"startTime":4059.308,"endTime":4063.058,"body":"the efficiency of your solution and"},{"startTime":4063.058,"endTime":4066.178,"body":"just the bulk time of your solution."},{"startTime":4066.418,"endTime":4069.208,"body":"If we were to break 'em down on"},{"startTime":4066.418,"endTime":4069.208,"body":"that, like you, you basically have"},{"startTime":4069.208,"endTime":4071.128,"body":"to pick one to represent your chart."},{"startTime":4071.578,"endTime":4071.848,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":4071.848,"endTime":4072.028,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4072.528,"endTime":4076.988,"body":"Even when I do my backlogs as a product"},{"startTime":4072.528,"endTime":4076.988,"body":"person, the team has its story points,"},{"startTime":4077.468,"endTime":4083.318,"body":"estimates, man hours, actual hours,"},{"startTime":4077.468,"endTime":4083.318,"body":"literally, whatever they want, no hours."},{"startTime":4083.628,"endTime":4085.848,"body":"Whatever, ever every story is a one."},{"startTime":4086.238,"endTime":4086.568,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4087.258,"endTime":4089.958,"body":"whatever they wanna do,"},{"startTime":4087.258,"endTime":4089.958,"body":"that's for the team."},{"startTime":4090.618,"endTime":4094.548,"body":"For me, the product manager,"},{"startTime":4090.618,"endTime":4094.548,"body":"I have my business value."},{"startTime":4094.938,"endTime":4098.088,"body":"That's an arbitrary number I set"},{"startTime":4094.938,"endTime":4098.088,"body":"of how valuable I think it is."},{"startTime":4098.328,"endTime":4099.978,"body":"We both have our own arbitrary."},{"startTime":4100.308,"endTime":4102.618,"body":"Like which one are you."},{"startTime":4103.203,"endTime":4104.643,"body":"Project manager gonna pick."},{"startTime":4105.423,"endTime":4106.353,"body":"Well, awesome."},{"startTime":4106.803,"endTime":4107.613,"body":"The question, right."},{"startTime":4107.613,"endTime":4113.433,"body":"So again, falling back on the analogy, if"},{"startTime":4107.613,"endTime":4113.433,"body":"it doesn't matter which one you pick, as"},{"startTime":4113.433,"endTime":4115.863,"body":"long as it's the consistency there, right."},{"startTime":4115.863,"endTime":4118.983,"body":"As long as it's the same one"},{"startTime":4115.863,"endTime":4118.983,"body":"to your point, if you're using"},{"startTime":4119.043,"endTime":4123.243,"body":"business value in point some"},{"startTime":4119.043,"endTime":4123.243,"body":"there's some quantification of that."},{"startTime":4123.353,"endTime":4123.473,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4123.503,"endTime":4126.893,"body":"If you're using business value on"},{"startTime":4123.503,"endTime":4126.893,"body":"whatever scale, if you're always"},{"startTime":4126.893,"endTime":4131.513,"body":"using that business value delivered"},{"startTime":4126.893,"endTime":4131.513,"body":"per month, whatever, that might be a"},{"startTime":4131.513,"endTime":4135.323,"body":"metric you could share mm-hmm  and you"},{"startTime":4131.513,"endTime":4135.323,"body":"could put that on a chart and you can"},{"startTime":4135.323,"endTime":4137.383,"body":"call it whatever you like that's okay."},{"startTime":4137.683,"endTime":4138.043,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4138.643,"endTime":4139.693,"body":"I, I think that's okay."},{"startTime":4139.843,"endTime":4143.503,"body":"As long as people understand, this is"},{"startTime":4139.843,"endTime":4143.503,"body":"not a guarantee it's really backward"},{"startTime":4143.503,"endTime":4146.803,"body":"looking because you're saying over the"},{"startTime":4143.503,"endTime":4146.803,"body":"last six months we've delivered this or"},{"startTime":4146.803,"endTime":4151.123,"body":"two months, whatever, therefore projecting"},{"startTime":4146.803,"endTime":4151.123,"body":"forward, we can deliver the same, that,"},{"startTime":4151.453,"endTime":4154.873,"body":"that throws away the idea that we're"},{"startTime":4151.453,"endTime":4154.873,"body":"discovering something new so that it might"},{"startTime":4154.873,"endTime":4160.253,"body":"not be the same, that that's an understood"},{"startTime":4154.873,"endTime":4160.253,"body":"assumption or built in caveat if you like,"},{"startTime":4160.613,"endTime":4164.363,"body":"but there is one reason to do a"},{"startTime":4160.613,"endTime":4164.363,"body":"Gantt chart, but don't spend a whole"},{"startTime":4164.363,"endTime":4167.633,"body":"lot of time on it and that just,"},{"startTime":4164.363,"endTime":4167.633,"body":"you could use software to do it."},{"startTime":4167.633,"endTime":4169.703,"body":"And most software allows you to do this."},{"startTime":4169.973,"endTime":4172.433,"body":"Once you've done this, I"},{"startTime":4169.973,"endTime":4172.433,"body":"suggest you completely throw it"},{"startTime":4172.433,"endTime":4174.273,"body":"away and that reason is this."},{"startTime":4174.273,"endTime":4178.563,"body":"If you know the activities you have"},{"startTime":4174.273,"endTime":4178.563,"body":"to do, and if you know roughly how"},{"startTime":4178.563,"endTime":4182.393,"body":"long it's gonna take, it's a guess,"},{"startTime":4178.563,"endTime":4182.393,"body":"but let's say you put the guests down."},{"startTime":4182.693,"endTime":4185.783,"body":"Most software, Microsoft,"},{"startTime":4182.693,"endTime":4185.783,"body":"Microsoft project, for instance,"},{"startTime":4185.783,"endTime":4187.703,"body":"and others, they let you."},{"startTime":4188.198,"endTime":4192.458,"body":"Create what they call a network diagram"},{"startTime":4188.198,"endTime":4192.458,"body":"out of this without getting too P what it"},{"startTime":4192.458,"endTime":4197.228,"body":"will do is it will give you the critical"},{"startTime":4192.458,"endTime":4197.228,"body":"path in that critical path and don't look"},{"startTime":4197.228,"endTime":4202.148,"body":"at the, the numbers here, just look at"},{"startTime":4197.228,"endTime":4202.148,"body":"the path and say, according to this F"},{"startTime":4202.148,"endTime":4207.548,"body":"has to be done before B, otherwise the"},{"startTime":4202.148,"endTime":4207.548,"body":"whole thing slides just that knowledge"},{"startTime":4207.608,"endTime":4209.738,"body":"alone is worth doing a game chart."},{"startTime":4209.768,"endTime":4212.728,"body":"If you were forced to do one,"},{"startTime":4209.768,"endTime":4212.728,"body":"that's the reason to do one"},{"startTime":4212.728,"endTime":4213.848,"body":"mm-hmm  and then throw it away."},{"startTime":4213.848,"endTime":4216.518,"body":"I'm not saying that knowledge"},{"startTime":4213.848,"endTime":4216.518,"body":"cannot be gained another way."},{"startTime":4216.523,"endTime":4218.648,"body":"This is the quickest way,"},{"startTime":4216.523,"endTime":4218.648,"body":"throw things in there."},{"startTime":4218.648,"endTime":4222.938,"body":"Put some times on very quickly,"},{"startTime":4218.648,"endTime":4222.938,"body":"find out your, your critical path."},{"startTime":4222.938,"endTime":4226.238,"body":"And now that you know that you can"},{"startTime":4222.938,"endTime":4226.238,"body":"adjust your backlogs accordingly,"},{"startTime":4226.328,"endTime":4227.468,"body":"and then just throw away your,"},{"startTime":4228.158,"endTime":4232.018,"body":"I don't know, I feel it's, it's just a,"},{"startTime":4228.158,"endTime":4232.018,"body":"a lot of overhead for me that I just, I"},{"startTime":4232.018,"endTime":4236.008,"body":"honestly don't need because two sprints"},{"startTime":4232.018,"endTime":4236.008,"body":"in, I could decide that the business,"},{"startTime":4236.288,"endTime":4239.708,"body":"values something else more and I could"},{"startTime":4236.288,"endTime":4239.708,"body":"throw away all of that planning that"},{"startTime":4239.708,"endTime":4242.408,"body":"we had to do for X, Y, Z, or whatever."},{"startTime":4242.423,"endTime":4246.503,"body":"If your team is doing scrum, there's"},{"startTime":4242.423,"endTime":4246.503,"body":"a certain percentage of overhead,"},{"startTime":4247.043,"endTime":4250.563,"body":"with regard to the model of scrum,"},{"startTime":4247.043,"endTime":4250.563,"body":"which includes, , backlog refinements."},{"startTime":4250.563,"endTime":4253.593,"body":"If I decide to pivot and I have"},{"startTime":4250.563,"endTime":4253.593,"body":"to do significantly more backlog"},{"startTime":4253.598,"endTime":4255.993,"body":"refinement, am I breaking that number?"},{"startTime":4255.993,"endTime":4259.098,"body":"I feel like I am because I'm throwing out"},{"startTime":4255.993,"endTime":4259.098,"body":"a bunch of previous planning that we did."},{"startTime":4259.798,"endTime":4265.638,"body":"I feel it was, this was a helpful"},{"startTime":4259.798,"endTime":4265.638,"body":"discussion from the perspective of, do"},{"startTime":4265.638,"endTime":4269.938,"body":"I understand what people looking for"},{"startTime":4265.638,"endTime":4269.938,"body":"Gantt charts are looking for, the people"},{"startTime":4269.938,"endTime":4274.708,"body":"looking for Gant charts are looking for"},{"startTime":4269.938,"endTime":4274.708,"body":"a plan of everything end to end every"},{"startTime":4274.708,"endTime":4276.838,"body":"potential feature we ever could deliver."},{"startTime":4277.198,"endTime":4282.278,"body":"And, I, as a product person"},{"startTime":4277.198,"endTime":4282.278,"body":"I could decide at a whim it's"},{"startTime":4282.278,"endTime":4283.748,"body":"not really that's yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":4284.018,"endTime":4286.178,"body":"It is more, or my expert"},{"startTime":4284.018,"endTime":4286.178,"body":"investigation campaign."},{"startTime":4286.178,"endTime":4286.268,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":4286.718,"endTime":4291.458,"body":"But honestly, at a whim I could decide,"},{"startTime":4286.718,"endTime":4291.458,"body":"like we're just not gonna put any more"},{"startTime":4291.458,"endTime":4294.908,"body":"money into whatever initiative and,"},{"startTime":4291.458,"endTime":4294.908,"body":", we're gonna pivot and do something else."},{"startTime":4295.148,"endTime":4300.968,"body":"So I really don't see a reason to"},{"startTime":4295.148,"endTime":4300.968,"body":"plan more than two or three sprints"},{"startTime":4300.968,"endTime":4304.508,"body":"ahead at the absolute most I agree."},{"startTime":4304.568,"endTime":4309.098,"body":"Or, or if I'm planning to two or"},{"startTime":4304.568,"endTime":4309.098,"body":"three sprints ahead, I'm planning two"},{"startTime":4309.103,"endTime":4313.248,"body":"or three sprints ahead from a very"},{"startTime":4309.103,"endTime":4313.248,"body":"high level feature level, we're gonna"},{"startTime":4313.638,"endTime":4318.438,"body":"deal with the functionality X and"},{"startTime":4313.638,"endTime":4318.438,"body":"you, as leadership might, might say,"},{"startTime":4318.828,"endTime":4321.198,"body":"what, what does functionality X mean?"},{"startTime":4321.628,"endTime":4324.718,"body":"and then I would rattle off"},{"startTime":4321.628,"endTime":4324.718,"body":"three or four features that may"},{"startTime":4324.723,"endTime":4326.618,"body":"be included in functionality X."},{"startTime":4327.038,"endTime":4327.278,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4327.338,"endTime":4332.123,"body":"But when we get closer, I reserve"},{"startTime":4327.338,"endTime":4332.123,"body":"the right to take stories in"},{"startTime":4332.123,"endTime":4335.943,"body":"and out of functionality X, as"},{"startTime":4332.123,"endTime":4335.943,"body":"we talk to the customer like if"},{"startTime":4335.948,"endTime":4337.383,"body":"you work in Azure DevOps, right?"},{"startTime":4337.383,"endTime":4340.743,"body":"And you have epic, and those epics have"},{"startTime":4337.383,"endTime":4340.743,"body":"features, and those features have stories,"},{"startTime":4340.923,"endTime":4342.063,"body":"we'll break it down to that level,"},{"startTime":4342.118,"endTime":4345.928,"body":"."},{"startTime":4342.118,"endTime":4345.928,"body":"you might start with, oh, here's an"},{"startTime":4346.678,"endTime":4348.628,"body":"And the way we're gonna do that"},{"startTime":4346.678,"endTime":4348.628,"body":"is we're gonna implement feature"},{"startTime":4348.628,"endTime":4350.968,"body":"X in the inside of feature X."},{"startTime":4351.208,"endTime":4354.568,"body":"We're gonna do story one story,"},{"startTime":4351.208,"endTime":4354.568,"body":"two story, three, story four."},{"startTime":4354.838,"endTime":4355.798,"body":"But that's what we plan."},{"startTime":4355.888,"endTime":4357.268,"body":"We talk to customer, we get started."},{"startTime":4357.898,"endTime":4359.848,"body":"We do story one customer likes it."},{"startTime":4359.908,"endTime":4361.798,"body":"We do story two customer really likes it."},{"startTime":4361.798,"endTime":4362.368,"body":"Very happy."},{"startTime":4362.548,"endTime":4365.098,"body":"We do story three customers"},{"startTime":4362.548,"endTime":4365.098,"body":"like this is great."},{"startTime":4365.848,"endTime":4366.208,"body":"Feature."},{"startTime":4366.208,"endTime":4367.108,"body":"4, 5, 6."},{"startTime":4367.558,"endTime":4368.488,"body":"I don't really care about 'em."},{"startTime":4368.578,"endTime":4368.698,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4369.208,"endTime":4371.278,"body":"I got mounting pressures from other teams."},{"startTime":4371.428,"endTime":4372.268,"body":"I decided, you know what?"},{"startTime":4372.298,"endTime":4374.038,"body":"I'm just gonna cut feature 4, 5, 6."},{"startTime":4374.323,"endTime":4375.523,"body":"I'm gonna cut 'em out of that feature."},{"startTime":4375.823,"endTime":4378.583,"body":"I'm gonna move 'em to a future thing"},{"startTime":4375.823,"endTime":4378.583,"body":"when I come back to that customer"},{"startTime":4378.763,"endTime":4381.918,"body":"or when they give me money or"},{"startTime":4378.763,"endTime":4381.918,"body":"whatever, and I just decide, I call"},{"startTime":4381.918,"endTime":4386.828,"body":"the audible and I just decide we've"},{"startTime":4381.918,"endTime":4386.828,"body":"done enough for this moment in time"},{"startTime":4387.338,"endTime":4390.128,"body":"where this feature is done for now."},{"startTime":4390.368,"endTime":4390.638,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4390.848,"endTime":4396.008,"body":"And I make the call as opposed to"},{"startTime":4390.848,"endTime":4396.008,"body":"six months ago, we decided we were"},{"startTime":4396.008,"endTime":4401.468,"body":"gonna do six stories under feature,"},{"startTime":4396.008,"endTime":4401.468,"body":"whatever ax, whatever I said."},{"startTime":4401.528,"endTime":4401.768,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":4401.868,"endTime":4404.688,"body":"And now since we made the call"},{"startTime":4401.868,"endTime":4404.688,"body":"six months ago, we have to"},{"startTime":4404.688,"endTime":4405.918,"body":"stick to what we said yeah."},{"startTime":4405.918,"endTime":4411.178,"body":"You know, again, if some project manager"},{"startTime":4405.918,"endTime":4411.178,"body":"who, again, wasn't even talking to the"},{"startTime":4411.178,"endTime":4414.998,"body":"customer in the first place, decided"},{"startTime":4411.178,"endTime":4414.998,"body":"that stuff months ago with a team who"},{"startTime":4414.998,"endTime":4418.263,"body":"may have been contractors who aren't"},{"startTime":4414.998,"endTime":4418.263,"body":"even here at the company anymore."},{"startTime":4419.088,"endTime":4422.368,"body":"And now I have to do it with my team"},{"startTime":4419.088,"endTime":4422.368,"body":"or whatever no, no, no, no, no, no, no."},{"startTime":4422.373,"endTime":4423.358,"body":"We're not gonna plan that way."},{"startTime":4423.358,"endTime":4424.708,"body":"We're not gonna operate that way."},{"startTime":4425.008,"endTime":4425.848,"body":"We don't need that."},{"startTime":4426.298,"endTime":4427.768,"body":"I will talk to the customer."},{"startTime":4428.278,"endTime":4431.908,"body":"I will sync up with them and we'll"},{"startTime":4428.278,"endTime":4431.908,"body":"do what it takes until they reach"},{"startTime":4431.908,"endTime":4433.168,"body":"a certain level of satisfaction."},{"startTime":4433.468,"endTime":4435.298,"body":"And then we'll pivot and"},{"startTime":4433.468,"endTime":4435.298,"body":"we'll go to something else."},{"startTime":4435.348,"endTime":4440.268,"body":"I, as a product manager will take"},{"startTime":4435.348,"endTime":4440.268,"body":"on that responsibility rather than"},{"startTime":4440.268,"endTime":4445.748,"body":"delegate it to some, some outside"},{"startTime":4440.268,"endTime":4445.748,"body":"person whose total job is not actually"},{"startTime":4445.748,"endTime":4450.998,"body":"accountable or responsible for any actual"},{"startTime":4445.748,"endTime":4450.998,"body":"implementation of the customer needs."},{"startTime":4451.148,"endTime":4451.438,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4451.443,"endTime":4452.558,"body":"Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more."},{"startTime":4453.058,"endTime":4453.268,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4453.268,"endTime":4455.398,"body":"I could not agree more"},{"startTime":4453.268,"endTime":4455.398,"body":"with what you've just said."},{"startTime":4455.728,"endTime":4459.988,"body":"Big requirements, big planning"},{"startTime":4455.728,"endTime":4459.988,"body":"upfront really seldom works."},{"startTime":4460.558,"endTime":4464.428,"body":"And the only way they make it work"},{"startTime":4460.558,"endTime":4464.428,"body":"is that person who's full-time job"},{"startTime":4464.428,"endTime":4468.598,"body":"is to keep planning and updating the"},{"startTime":4464.428,"endTime":4468.598,"body":"plan is to Rere baseline re re re."},{"startTime":4469.098,"endTime":4471.618,"body":"And then a month before they"},{"startTime":4469.098,"endTime":4471.618,"body":"go, this is our go live date."},{"startTime":4471.618,"endTime":4473.508,"body":"And then turn around, say,"},{"startTime":4471.618,"endTime":4473.508,"body":"see, I told you, right?"},{"startTime":4473.508,"endTime":4473.748,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4473.748,"endTime":4477.798,"body":"Well that, well, that person's"},{"startTime":4473.748,"endTime":4477.798,"body":"full-time job is to manage us, manage,"},{"startTime":4477.798,"endTime":4481.218,"body":"manage all of the people that are"},{"startTime":4477.798,"endTime":4481.218,"body":"responsible, target customer, doing"},{"startTime":4481.218,"endTime":4484.188,"body":"the actual work, all the people"},{"startTime":4481.218,"endTime":4484.188,"body":"accountable and responsible for the work."},{"startTime":4484.188,"endTime":4486.738,"body":"They they're just their"},{"startTime":4484.188,"endTime":4486.738,"body":"job is just to manage us."},{"startTime":4487.368,"endTime":4489.438,"body":"I don't see that as a necessity."},{"startTime":4489.688,"endTime":4492.148,"body":"we can self manage."},{"startTime":4492.328,"endTime":4492.718,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":4492.988,"endTime":4493.888,"body":"We can self organize."},{"startTime":4493.888,"endTime":4498.578,"body":"We can talk directly to the customer"},{"startTime":4493.888,"endTime":4498.578,"body":"and, to take it to the next level, to"},{"startTime":4498.578,"endTime":4501.938,"body":"completely divorce myself from the point"},{"startTime":4498.578,"endTime":4501.938,"body":"that I was supposed to be supporting."},{"startTime":4501.938,"endTime":4505.868,"body":"At this point, we can talk to"},{"startTime":4501.938,"endTime":4505.868,"body":"leadership as well, and other members"},{"startTime":4505.868,"endTime":4508.418,"body":"of the organization sales, right?"},{"startTime":4508.448,"endTime":4512.508,"body":"You know, whoever else that we need to"},{"startTime":4508.448,"endTime":4512.508,"body":"talk to account management, whoever we"},{"startTime":4512.508,"endTime":4516.498,"body":"need to align with to say this is what"},{"startTime":4512.508,"endTime":4516.498,"body":"we're doing to satisfy the customer."},{"startTime":4516.648,"endTime":4518.538,"body":"This is what we're doing"},{"startTime":4516.648,"endTime":4518.538,"body":"to deepen our relationship."},{"startTime":4518.568,"endTime":4520.988,"body":"This is what we're doing"},{"startTime":4518.568,"endTime":4520.988,"body":"to solve their problems."},{"startTime":4521.793,"endTime":4522.543,"body":"We can align that."},{"startTime":4522.543,"endTime":4524.673,"body":"Well, we don't need a"},{"startTime":4522.543,"endTime":4524.673,"body":"professional manager."},{"startTime":4524.673,"endTime":4525.393,"body":"We absolutely don't."},{"startTime":4525.393,"endTime":4528.933,"body":"And I think agile leadership"},{"startTime":4525.393,"endTime":4528.933,"body":"understand that unfortunately,"},{"startTime":4528.933,"endTime":4533.103,"body":"they're a rare  species even"},{"startTime":4528.933,"endTime":4533.103,"body":"today is surprising even today."},{"startTime":4533.103,"endTime":4533.373,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4533.433,"endTime":4534.603,"body":"You don't see too many of them."},{"startTime":4534.903,"endTime":4535.143,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4535.203,"endTime":4535.768,"body":"But yeah."},{"startTime":4536.008,"endTime":4538.818,"body":"So the bottom line is don't"},{"startTime":4536.008,"endTime":4538.818,"body":"bother with Gantt charts."},{"startTime":4538.848,"endTime":4539.493,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":4539.763,"endTime":4540.813,"body":"I think that's where we ended."},{"startTime":4540.818,"endTime":4543.823,"body":"I tried to support the side of"},{"startTime":4540.818,"endTime":4543.823,"body":"the Gantt chart, pretty, fairly,"},{"startTime":4543.873,"endTime":4546.063,"body":"through three quarters of the"},{"startTime":4543.873,"endTime":4546.063,"body":"podcast and I just couldn't myself."},{"startTime":4546.063,"endTime":4546.513,"body":"Well, it was pretty good."},{"startTime":4546.663,"endTime":4547.413,"body":"Pretty good attempt."},{"startTime":4547.553,"endTime":4549.033,"body":"Val attempt couldn't help myself anymore."},{"startTime":4549.033,"endTime":4549.373,"body":"It was good"},{"startTime":4549.873,"endTime":4550.563,"body":"all well."},{"startTime":4550.563,"endTime":4553.173,"body":"Hey, if you, like to podcast,"},{"startTime":4550.563,"endTime":4553.173,"body":"we appreciate all likes."},{"startTime":4553.253,"endTime":4555.463,"body":"I probably already have stopped"},{"startTime":4553.253,"endTime":4555.463,"body":", the editing at this point."},{"startTime":4555.553,"endTime":4556.153,"body":"Yeah, I know."},{"startTime":4556.483,"endTime":4556.993,"body":"That's cool."},{"startTime":4557.083,"endTime":4557.593,"body":"That's cool."},{"startTime":4557.903,"endTime":4558.443,"body":"Gantt chart."},{"startTime":4558.813,"endTime":4561.183,"body":"Don't do 'em can't even"},{"startTime":4558.813,"endTime":4561.183,"body":"spell Gantt most of the time."}]}