{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":2.28,"body":"The topic is bad certifications."},{"startTime":2.36,"endTime":5.3,"body":"So why don't we start by walking"},{"startTime":2.36,"endTime":5.3,"body":"through your bad experience."},{"startTime":5.35,"endTime":8.49,"body":"Let's walk through a,"},{"startTime":5.35,"endTime":8.49,"body":"a made fatigue example."},{"startTime":9.24,"endTime":9.53,"body":"okay."},{"startTime":9.91,"endTime":13.8,"body":"This isn't, this isn't one of those"},{"startTime":9.91,"endTime":13.8,"body":"uh, a non recipe shows where we should"},{"startTime":13.805,"endTime":15.54,"body":"say, here's what I made earlier."},{"startTime":15.87,"endTime":17.37,"body":"This is a real life example."},{"startTime":17.37,"endTime":17.67,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":17.67,"endTime":19.59,"body":"So we can maybe talk"},{"startTime":17.67,"endTime":19.59,"body":"about that a little bit."},{"startTime":19.59,"endTime":19.68,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":19.68,"endTime":21.209,"body":"Let's let's retread that story."},{"startTime":21.659,"endTime":23.459,"body":"so, alright basically."},{"startTime":23.649,"endTime":29.749,"body":"I decided to , go ahead and get certified"},{"startTime":23.649,"endTime":29.749,"body":"as a product owner through scrum Alliance."},{"startTime":30.199,"endTime":30.969,"body":"CSPO right."},{"startTime":31.039,"endTime":31.579,"body":"CSPO yeah."},{"startTime":31.729,"endTime":32.059,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":32.899,"endTime":39.45,"body":", and although I would have preferred to do"},{"startTime":32.899,"endTime":39.45,"body":"that in person, , just from a financial"},{"startTime":39.45,"endTime":44.34,"body":"and timing perspective, I happen to have"},{"startTime":39.45,"endTime":44.34,"body":"some time available over this next week."},{"startTime":44.34,"endTime":46.17,"body":"This was literally yesterday."},{"startTime":46.32,"endTime":49.32,"body":"I started the first day of two."},{"startTime":49.45,"endTime":49.955,"body":", this second."},{"startTime":50.63,"endTime":53.33,"body":"Would have been actually"},{"startTime":50.63,"endTime":53.33,"body":"completing right about now."},{"startTime":53.42,"endTime":53.48,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":53.57,"endTime":57.79,"body":"And I don't have to be tending that"},{"startTime":53.57,"endTime":57.79,"body":"second day  cuz it was that bad."},{"startTime":58.37,"endTime":62.59,"body":"so a little bit of background"},{"startTime":58.37,"endTime":62.59,"body":"is I do have product experience."},{"startTime":62.595,"endTime":65.049,"body":"I've been working in product as"},{"startTime":62.595,"endTime":65.049,"body":"a product owner for five years."},{"startTime":65.055,"endTime":68.169,"body":"So I met coming in this"},{"startTime":65.055,"endTime":68.169,"body":"as a brand new person."},{"startTime":68.169,"endTime":69.459,"body":"I do have scrum knowledge."},{"startTime":69.464,"endTime":72.669,"body":"I feel pretty confident in that,"},{"startTime":69.464,"endTime":72.669,"body":"but that said there were 19 people"},{"startTime":72.669,"endTime":77.799,"body":"in this class, the majority of"},{"startTime":72.669,"endTime":77.799,"body":"which had minimal to no knowledge."},{"startTime":77.804,"endTime":82.059,"body":"So this was the first time that"},{"startTime":77.804,"endTime":82.059,"body":"they were being exposed to this."},{"startTime":82.059,"endTime":82.479,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":83.019,"endTime":84.159,"body":"So that's number one."},{"startTime":84.744,"endTime":87.984,"body":"at some point during this"},{"startTime":84.744,"endTime":87.984,"body":"and, and so I understood."},{"startTime":88.014,"endTime":89.034,"body":"Alright, okay."},{"startTime":89.064,"endTime":90.324,"body":"He did a little survey."},{"startTime":90.324,"endTime":91.284,"body":"People were asking questions."},{"startTime":91.284,"endTime":92.034,"body":"He's like, okay."},{"startTime":92.604,"endTime":93.144,"body":"Oh, I see."},{"startTime":93.264,"endTime":96.594,"body":"There's a lot of BAS and a"},{"startTime":93.264,"endTime":96.594,"body":"lot of PMPs in this class."},{"startTime":96.599,"endTime":98.844,"body":"So we're gonna go ahead and"},{"startTime":96.599,"endTime":98.844,"body":"guide it in that direction."},{"startTime":98.849,"endTime":100.134,"body":"My first thought was like, why?"},{"startTime":100.634,"endTime":103.754,"body":"like, I'm not a BA or a PMP and all right."},{"startTime":104.024,"endTime":105.404,"body":"But I'll go with the flow."},{"startTime":105.974,"endTime":110.084,"body":", and we went through lots of scrum,"},{"startTime":105.974,"endTime":110.084,"body":"basic, literally the scrum guide."},{"startTime":110.084,"endTime":114.074,"body":"Here's a person who talked"},{"startTime":110.084,"endTime":114.074,"body":"to us for multiple hours."},{"startTime":114.464,"endTime":118.604,"body":"There was very little to no"},{"startTime":114.464,"endTime":118.604,"body":"engagement with the actual audience"},{"startTime":118.604,"endTime":120.554,"body":"of 20 people, including myself."},{"startTime":120.634,"endTime":124.294,"body":"And, first of all, there was"},{"startTime":120.634,"endTime":124.294,"body":"an exercise that came up where"},{"startTime":124.294,"endTime":126.214,"body":"he asked us to do a RACI chart."},{"startTime":126.754,"endTime":127.414,"body":"Essentially."},{"startTime":127.444,"endTime":128.764,"body":"It was just a quad."},{"startTime":128.864,"endTime":133.544,"body":"and in this quad, if you could"},{"startTime":128.864,"endTime":133.544,"body":"imagine one corner was an other group."},{"startTime":133.544,"endTime":135.464,"body":"One corner was a scrum master group."},{"startTime":135.469,"endTime":139.484,"body":"One corner was the PO and one car"},{"startTime":135.469,"endTime":139.484,"body":"corner was the dev and there were"},{"startTime":139.484,"endTime":144.104,"body":"multiple then stickies that it, that"},{"startTime":139.484,"endTime":144.104,"body":"were things that we, he would ask us to"},{"startTime":144.104,"endTime":148.784,"body":"place where they are most appropriate,"},{"startTime":144.104,"endTime":148.784,"body":"according to whose responsibility it was."},{"startTime":148.904,"endTime":152.654,"body":"And the one example"},{"startTime":148.904,"endTime":152.654,"body":"was definition of done."},{"startTime":153.644,"endTime":157.364,"body":"so we broke up into bro, went"},{"startTime":153.644,"endTime":157.364,"body":"out into, broke out breakout"},{"startTime":157.364,"endTime":158.894,"body":"groups and discussed this."},{"startTime":158.894,"endTime":162.734,"body":"Now I referenced the scrum guide"},{"startTime":158.894,"endTime":162.734,"body":"and the scrum guide very clearly"},{"startTime":162.734,"endTime":165.404,"body":"states on the next to last page."},{"startTime":165.404,"endTime":171.134,"body":"If you wanna look it up that if there"},{"startTime":165.404,"endTime":171.134,"body":"is already a definition of done that has"},{"startTime":171.139,"endTime":175.764,"body":"been, established by your organization,"},{"startTime":171.139,"endTime":175.764,"body":"then that must be followed minimally."},{"startTime":175.914,"endTime":180.984,"body":"If there isn't one established then is"},{"startTime":175.914,"endTime":180.984,"body":"up to the scrum team, the entire scrum"},{"startTime":180.984,"endTime":183.174,"body":"team to create the definition of done."},{"startTime":183.804,"endTime":189.114,"body":"So when he was going through and talking"},{"startTime":183.804,"endTime":189.114,"body":"about this, he said it was up to the dev"},{"startTime":189.114,"endTime":190.764,"body":"team to create the definition of done."},{"startTime":190.764,"endTime":193.794,"body":"And I challenged him on this"},{"startTime":190.764,"endTime":193.794,"body":"and I said, well, isn't it."},{"startTime":194.124,"endTime":197.654,"body":"The scrum team's"},{"startTime":194.124,"endTime":197.654,"body":"responsibility to do this."},{"startTime":197.654,"endTime":199.789,"body":"Cuz he was correcting our kind of chart."},{"startTime":200.521,"endTime":204.091,"body":"and so he went through and, and made"},{"startTime":200.521,"endTime":204.091,"body":"the couple of references and basically"},{"startTime":204.091,"endTime":206.371,"body":"said, well, no, it's actually the devs."},{"startTime":206.431,"endTime":210.211,"body":"And as a scrum master, I would need"},{"startTime":206.431,"endTime":210.211,"body":"to uphold the devs opinion on this."},{"startTime":210.451,"endTime":214.081,"body":"And it would probably not be a"},{"startTime":210.451,"endTime":214.081,"body":"bad idea for them to consult with."},{"startTime":214.081,"endTime":217.511,"body":"And I might encourage them to consult"},{"startTime":214.081,"endTime":217.511,"body":"with the product owner, but that"},{"startTime":217.511,"endTime":221.321,"body":"would really be up to them, but"},{"startTime":217.511,"endTime":221.321,"body":"it's not up to me to tell them what"},{"startTime":221.321,"endTime":222.881,"body":"they should and shouldn't be doing."},{"startTime":223.721,"endTime":226.481,"body":"So again, I challenged him."},{"startTime":226.481,"endTime":231.401,"body":"I brought him to that specific"},{"startTime":226.481,"endTime":231.401,"body":"comment page or comment in the, in"},{"startTime":231.406,"endTime":234.731,"body":"the actual scrum guide and asked"},{"startTime":231.406,"endTime":234.731,"body":"him, I said, at this point you've"},{"startTime":234.731,"endTime":238.871,"body":"given me three different answers,"},{"startTime":234.731,"endTime":238.871,"body":"like basically the product owner's"},{"startTime":238.871,"endTime":243.521,"body":"responsibility, the devs responsibility"},{"startTime":238.871,"endTime":243.521,"body":"or coordination between the two."},{"startTime":243.821,"endTime":245.951,"body":"And I'm saying it's"},{"startTime":243.821,"endTime":245.951,"body":"actually none of those."},{"startTime":245.956,"endTime":249.731,"body":"It should be the dev team, including"},{"startTime":245.956,"endTime":249.731,"body":"scrum master product owner."},{"startTime":249.736,"endTime":250.081,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":250.181,"endTime":252.011,"body":"So here was the first experience."},{"startTime":252.391,"endTime":257.641,"body":"And then that ultimately led into"},{"startTime":252.391,"endTime":257.641,"body":"a rant about agile Alliance and"},{"startTime":257.641,"endTime":261.181,"body":"how much he despised it, which I"},{"startTime":257.641,"endTime":261.181,"body":"thought was so odd being that he"},{"startTime":261.181,"endTime":267.611,"body":"was providing a scrum Alliance"},{"startTime":261.181,"endTime":267.611,"body":"certification but how much he hated it."},{"startTime":267.611,"endTime":271.931,"body":"And it was, they were awful and"},{"startTime":267.611,"endTime":271.931,"body":"money hungry and all these things."},{"startTime":272.621,"endTime":277.361,"body":"And I had to kind of calm 'em down,"},{"startTime":272.621,"endTime":277.361,"body":"going like, okay, there's benefits"},{"startTime":277.361,"endTime":279.071,"body":"to all of these organizations."},{"startTime":279.101,"endTime":280.361,"body":"Not all of them are perfect."},{"startTime":280.361,"endTime":282.641,"body":"I happened to be a member of"},{"startTime":280.361,"endTime":282.641,"body":"all of them, and I pull some"},{"startTime":282.646,"endTime":284.351,"body":"good from all of these places."},{"startTime":285.171,"endTime":290.451,"body":"and then finally, towards the end of"},{"startTime":285.171,"endTime":290.451,"body":"the daylong class of which I spent"},{"startTime":290.481,"endTime":294.891,"body":"eight hours still waiting to figure"},{"startTime":290.481,"endTime":294.891,"body":"out what information am I going"},{"startTime":294.891,"endTime":299.061,"body":"to get about a product owner since"},{"startTime":294.891,"endTime":299.061,"body":"this is why I'm taking this class."},{"startTime":299.061,"endTime":301.281,"body":"And at this point now I've"},{"startTime":299.061,"endTime":301.281,"body":"spent eight hours and learned"},{"startTime":301.491,"endTime":304.131,"body":"nothing about a product owner."},{"startTime":305.001,"endTime":308.361,"body":"So then we had a Q and a, and I decided"},{"startTime":305.001,"endTime":308.361,"body":"to stay back and kind of listen in"},{"startTime":308.361,"endTime":310.131,"body":"and maybe ask a couple of questions."},{"startTime":310.471,"endTime":314.211,"body":"one of the questions, something came"},{"startTime":310.471,"endTime":314.211,"body":"up about JIRA from someone else."},{"startTime":314.211,"endTime":315.741,"body":"And he went on a rant."},{"startTime":316.461,"endTime":321.701,"body":"and when I say a rant, holy crap, a"},{"startTime":316.461,"endTime":321.701,"body":"rant about how much he hated JIRA."},{"startTime":321.911,"endTime":327.371,"body":"It is up to us as individuals to make"},{"startTime":321.911,"endTime":327.371,"body":"sure we are in control of our own destiny."},{"startTime":327.371,"endTime":331.841,"body":"We make the decisions and we should"},{"startTime":327.371,"endTime":331.841,"body":"never choose a company that uses JIRA."},{"startTime":331.901,"endTime":332.981,"body":"It is awful."},{"startTime":333.131,"endTime":337.541,"body":"It is there for management to do"},{"startTime":333.131,"endTime":337.541,"body":"nothing more than to micromanage and"},{"startTime":337.541,"endTime":341.411,"body":"to push down on the developers and"},{"startTime":337.541,"endTime":341.411,"body":"to monitor them and to punish them."},{"startTime":341.411,"endTime":342.401,"body":"And right."},{"startTime":342.571,"endTime":346.441,"body":"And I agreed with him to some"},{"startTime":342.571,"endTime":346.441,"body":"extent, and I said, you know what?"},{"startTime":346.441,"endTime":350.251,"body":"I, I can tell you that I've"},{"startTime":346.441,"endTime":350.251,"body":"seen these things happen."},{"startTime":350.701,"endTime":354.541,"body":"I have, but what I hear you saying over"},{"startTime":350.701,"endTime":354.541,"body":"and over and over again, it was that"},{"startTime":354.541,"endTime":361.816,"body":"there were people that were using it"},{"startTime":354.541,"endTime":361.816,"body":"in this way and so my objection is that"},{"startTime":361.816,"endTime":365.776,"body":"the tool isn't the problem, but the"},{"startTime":361.816,"endTime":365.776,"body":"people in the manner in which they're"},{"startTime":365.776,"endTime":368.326,"body":"deciding to use it is the problem."},{"startTime":368.896,"endTime":372.676,"body":"And I also brought up thinking"},{"startTime":368.896,"endTime":372.676,"body":"that there are 19 other people,"},{"startTime":372.676,"endTime":374.836,"body":"most of which have zero experience."},{"startTime":374.841,"endTime":380.236,"body":"And he has just told them never to work"},{"startTime":374.841,"endTime":380.236,"body":"for a company that uses JIRA, which is"},{"startTime":380.236,"endTime":385.816,"body":"the number one industry standard, and now"},{"startTime":380.236,"endTime":385.816,"body":"will limit their job pool exponentially."},{"startTime":386.516,"endTime":390.386,"body":"and I mentioned those things to"},{"startTime":386.516,"endTime":390.386,"body":"him and he got very angry and"},{"startTime":390.386,"endTime":392.006,"body":"basically said, it's up to you."},{"startTime":392.011,"endTime":392.966,"body":"You get to choose."},{"startTime":392.971,"endTime":398.516,"body":"And I choose, I choose not to ever work"},{"startTime":392.971,"endTime":398.516,"body":"for a company that uses JIRA because"},{"startTime":398.516,"endTime":400.526,"body":"it is awful and all these things."},{"startTime":400.526,"endTime":402.626,"body":"And I said, I'm very frustrated with JIRA."},{"startTime":402.656,"endTime":403.526,"body":"I get that."},{"startTime":403.526,"endTime":405.746,"body":"But I can't blacklist JIRA."},{"startTime":405.776,"endTime":409.551,"body":"Every company that I've worked as"},{"startTime":405.776,"endTime":409.551,"body":"a product owner has used a JIRA."},{"startTime":410.286,"endTime":416.891,"body":"Absolutely awful and surprisingly so,"},{"startTime":410.286,"endTime":416.891,"body":"because I did my research and realized."},{"startTime":417.391,"endTime":423.091,"body":"in hindsight that honestly scrum Alliance"},{"startTime":417.391,"endTime":423.091,"body":"did a very poor job of representing"},{"startTime":423.096,"endTime":427.861,"body":"in my, this is just my opinion I would"},{"startTime":423.096,"endTime":427.861,"body":"hypothesize that the biographies and"},{"startTime":427.861,"endTime":432.651,"body":"the information that is provided on the"},{"startTime":427.861,"endTime":432.651,"body":"actual trainers are probably provided"},{"startTime":432.651,"endTime":436.041,"body":"by the trainers or the train or the,"},{"startTime":432.651,"endTime":436.041,"body":"or the companies that they work for."},{"startTime":436.141,"endTime":436.181,"body":"Probably."},{"startTime":436.791,"endTime":436.851,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":436.851,"endTime":438.141,"body":"I'm pretty sure that's the case."},{"startTime":438.261,"endTime":438.621,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":438.951,"endTime":440.631,"body":"And they're probably not validated either."},{"startTime":440.841,"endTime":441.231,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":441.861,"endTime":446.391,"body":"So, yeah, that was my"},{"startTime":441.861,"endTime":446.391,"body":"intensely horrible experience."},{"startTime":446.391,"endTime":451.311,"body":"So had I completed today's eight hours,"},{"startTime":446.391,"endTime":451.311,"body":"which all you need to do to get your"},{"startTime":451.311,"endTime":453.681,"body":"CSPO is just attend two eight hour days."},{"startTime":453.861,"endTime":458.781,"body":"I would've been awarded a CSPO badge and I"},{"startTime":453.861,"endTime":458.781,"body":"could have proudly placed that on and said"},{"startTime":458.786,"endTime":461.271,"body":"I'm certified as a, as a product owner."},{"startTime":461.941,"endTime":465.816,"body":"However,  my goal was not"},{"startTime":461.941,"endTime":465.816,"body":"to go in and get the badge."},{"startTime":465.876,"endTime":469.506,"body":"I really did want to enrich myself."},{"startTime":469.511,"endTime":469.516,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":469.896,"endTime":470.736,"body":"And my career."},{"startTime":470.946,"endTime":478.476,"body":"So I chose to actually abandon the class"},{"startTime":470.946,"endTime":478.476,"body":"and, and find another more valid trainer."},{"startTime":478.776,"endTime":481.471,"body":"That's a nice way of saying"},{"startTime":478.776,"endTime":481.471,"body":"you staged a walk that's right."},{"startTime":481.471,"endTime":481.951,"body":"I did."},{"startTime":482.451,"endTime":483.951,"body":". I mean, well there's so many questions."},{"startTime":483.951,"endTime":484.701,"body":"I have so many questions."},{"startTime":484.701,"endTime":485.541,"body":"Yeah, there's right."},{"startTime":485.611,"endTime":486.741,"body":"There's, there's a lot here."},{"startTime":486.831,"endTime":487.161,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":487.251,"endTime":488.151,"body":"I don't know where to start."},{"startTime":488.151,"endTime":490.551,"body":"First of all, I'm proud of"},{"startTime":488.151,"endTime":490.551,"body":"you for staging a walkout."},{"startTime":490.601,"endTime":495.801,"body":"I feel that I should in some way, shape"},{"startTime":490.601,"endTime":495.801,"body":"or form try to present the other side."},{"startTime":495.921,"endTime":497.516,"body":"I mean I, I already know."},{"startTime":497.516,"endTime":501.856,"body":"I, I can already hear every corporate"},{"startTime":497.516,"endTime":501.856,"body":"dirt bag I've ever worked for on"},{"startTime":501.856,"endTime":504.306,"body":"the other side, just keep your"},{"startTime":501.856,"endTime":504.306,"body":"mouth shut and get your shirt."},{"startTime":504.416,"endTime":504.707,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":504.712,"endTime":506.406,"body":"And go apply for your jobs."},{"startTime":506.496,"endTime":507.426,"body":"What's your problem."},{"startTime":507.546,"endTime":511.806,"body":"How come you can't just be for every"},{"startTime":507.546,"endTime":511.806,"body":"person who like you, who walks out there's"},{"startTime":511.811,"endTime":516.066,"body":"18 other people that just kept their mouth"},{"startTime":511.811,"endTime":516.066,"body":"shut and got their shirt that that's,"},{"startTime":516.066,"endTime":517.686,"body":"that's the  arguing point of this one."},{"startTime":517.686,"endTime":517.776,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":517.956,"endTime":520.716,"body":"That I can't like, I feel I can"},{"startTime":517.956,"endTime":520.716,"body":"bring up, but I can't really."},{"startTime":521.511,"endTime":524.171,"body":"No and that is exactly what I refuse."},{"startTime":524.201,"endTime":528.351,"body":"I mean, I refuse, I I hope that"},{"startTime":524.201,"endTime":528.351,"body":"at some point I will be able to be"},{"startTime":528.351,"endTime":534.061,"body":"providing some quality education, , for"},{"startTime":528.351,"endTime":534.061,"body":"other potential product owners or"},{"startTime":534.061,"endTime":538.261,"body":"people who are looking to do kind of"},{"startTime":534.061,"endTime":538.261,"body":"change in, in their organizations."},{"startTime":538.741,"endTime":543.511,"body":"And I want to do that through experience"},{"startTime":538.741,"endTime":543.511,"body":"and learning from people who can, as I"},{"startTime":543.511,"endTime":547.051,"body":"said, enrich me, and this was not that."},{"startTime":547.171,"endTime":547.461,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":548.011,"endTime":548.131,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":548.161,"endTime":552.751,"body":"So given that certifications are a"},{"startTime":548.161,"endTime":552.751,"body":"necessary evil, they're here to stay."},{"startTime":552.781,"endTime":554.221,"body":"I mean, you just can't avoid that."},{"startTime":554.221,"endTime":559.101,"body":"The thing that's important here is this,"},{"startTime":554.221,"endTime":559.101,"body":"if you look at the, the graph of a number"},{"startTime":559.101,"endTime":564.811,"body":"of certificates or people that have been"},{"startTime":559.101,"endTime":564.811,"body":"provided certifications,  and had  their"},{"startTime":564.811,"endTime":566.351,"body":"precious dollars robbed off of them."},{"startTime":566.561,"endTime":571.181,"body":"The graph has just gone up exponentially"},{"startTime":566.561,"endTime":571.181,"body":"over the last few years, and my mind"},{"startTime":571.181,"endTime":572.831,"body":"goes back to where it all started."},{"startTime":573.281,"endTime":576.461,"body":"This industry really"},{"startTime":573.281,"endTime":576.461,"body":"mm-hmm,  started with PMI."},{"startTime":576.521,"endTime":581.261,"body":"Initially that graph was fairly flat"},{"startTime":576.521,"endTime":581.261,"body":"and people used to say, oh, I'm one of"},{"startTime":581.531,"endTime":584.411,"body":"only 200 certified PMPs in the world."},{"startTime":584.411,"endTime":587.801,"body":"And it went from 200 to 1000 to, I"},{"startTime":584.411,"endTime":587.801,"body":"mean, just through the roof, right?"},{"startTime":587.801,"endTime":587.891,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":588.191,"endTime":589.931,"body":"What's really a shame."},{"startTime":589.936,"endTime":595.301,"body":"Is the organization put out a goal"},{"startTime":589.936,"endTime":595.301,"body":"saying by this Christmas we hope to"},{"startTime":595.301,"endTime":598.151,"body":"reach 50,000, who would be the 50,000."},{"startTime":598.571,"endTime":598.841,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":598.846,"endTime":599.021,"body":"Really?"},{"startTime":599.531,"endTime":600.551,"body":"This is your goal."},{"startTime":600.881,"endTime":604.631,"body":"And, and, and this is continuing with"},{"startTime":600.881,"endTime":604.631,"body":"these other bodies, scrum Alliance."},{"startTime":604.631,"endTime":604.901,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":605.201,"endTime":609.381,"body":"You know, well, agile Alliance, anybody"},{"startTime":605.201,"endTime":609.381,"body":"really, I you name an Alliance or,"},{"startTime":609.381,"endTime":612.591,"body":"or certified provider org, scrum,"},{"startTime":609.381,"endTime":612.591,"body":"they're all in it for the money."},{"startTime":612.811,"endTime":613.711,"body":"and they really don't care."},{"startTime":613.711,"endTime":617.941,"body":"So as a result, they've got these trainers"},{"startTime":613.711,"endTime":617.941,"body":"to your point earlier out there that can"},{"startTime":617.941,"endTime":622.381,"body":"stamp out certificates and with COVID."},{"startTime":622.651,"endTime":627.511,"body":"I think that acted as the gasoline on"},{"startTime":622.651,"endTime":627.511,"body":"this fire, because people could stay home."},{"startTime":627.871,"endTime":632.761,"body":"People could get a certification from"},{"startTime":627.871,"endTime":632.761,"body":"somebody who is of dubious quality,"},{"startTime":633.091,"endTime":636.361,"body":"anywhere in the world for a third"},{"startTime":633.091,"endTime":636.361,"body":"of the price for less than a third"},{"startTime":636.421,"endTime":638.221,"body":"in places these people are offshore."},{"startTime":638.551,"endTime":641.251,"body":"so if you're looking at it from your"},{"startTime":638.551,"endTime":641.251,"body":"own perspective, you say, well, it's"},{"startTime":641.511,"endTime":645.541,"body":"the same agile Alliance certificate"},{"startTime":641.511,"endTime":645.541,"body":"or scrum Alliance certificate"},{"startTime":645.871,"endTime":648.781,"body":"that I'm getting, but I'm getting"},{"startTime":645.871,"endTime":648.781,"body":"it for a fraction of the price."},{"startTime":648.841,"endTime":649.921,"body":"And I don't have to travel."},{"startTime":650.456,"endTime":652.406,"body":"There's no flight cost hotel costs."},{"startTime":652.646,"endTime":656.726,"body":"So consequently, the number of"},{"startTime":652.646,"endTime":656.726,"body":"certified folks just went up even"},{"startTime":656.726,"endTime":658.526,"body":"more through, through the pandemic."},{"startTime":659.066,"endTime":662.571,"body":"so here I understand all"},{"startTime":659.066,"endTime":662.571,"body":"about, do your research, right."},{"startTime":662.576,"endTime":663.441,"body":"And all of that stuff."},{"startTime":663.741,"endTime":669.971,"body":"But that said, if the bodies were"},{"startTime":663.741,"endTime":669.971,"body":"really looking to put out quality in"},{"startTime":669.971,"endTime":674.351,"body":"terms of, people that can come out"},{"startTime":669.971,"endTime":674.351,"body":"and, and practice their craft, as"},{"startTime":674.351,"endTime":678.161,"body":"opposed to just wave a certificate, we"},{"startTime":674.351,"endTime":678.161,"body":"wouldn't be in this spot, unfortunately"},{"startTime":678.166,"endTime":679.751,"body":"they're just in it for the money."},{"startTime":679.756,"endTime":681.131,"body":"So it comes down to that."},{"startTime":681.371,"endTime":683.231,"body":"I believe that that's what I say."},{"startTime":683.601,"endTime":686.741,"body":"the other thing is, as far"},{"startTime":683.601,"endTime":686.741,"body":"as these trainers, they have"},{"startTime":686.741,"endTime":688.061,"body":"to be certified themselves."},{"startTime":688.091,"endTime":691.901,"body":"Mm-hmm  and I personally believe there's"},{"startTime":688.091,"endTime":691.901,"body":"a, there's a huge gap here, which."},{"startTime":692.681,"endTime":696.131,"body":"You can get a certificate by"},{"startTime":692.681,"endTime":696.131,"body":"sitting in a class for two days,"},{"startTime":696.131,"endTime":697.451,"body":"get the next one, get the next one."},{"startTime":697.451,"endTime":698.951,"body":"There are many that you can get that way."},{"startTime":699.191,"endTime":702.251,"body":"You may once in a while, have to"},{"startTime":699.191,"endTime":702.251,"body":"take a little test here and there"},{"startTime":702.641,"endTime":707.531,"body":"and that's it at no point, is it a"},{"startTime":702.641,"endTime":707.531,"body":"requirement to have worked in the field?"},{"startTime":707.536,"endTime":710.561,"body":"Well, the, the, well that's, that"},{"startTime":707.536,"endTime":710.561,"body":"might not be true because the"},{"startTime":710.561,"endTime":715.391,"body":"scrum Alliance you have to prove"},{"startTime":710.561,"endTime":715.391,"body":"a certain amount of expertise."},{"startTime":715.891,"endTime":719.661,"body":"I remember when I took the A-CSM , you"},{"startTime":715.891,"endTime":719.661,"body":"have to prove that you worked as a"},{"startTime":719.661,"endTime":723.831,"body":"scrum master or in a capacity that kind"},{"startTime":719.661,"endTime":723.831,"body":"of towards being a scrum master for, I"},{"startTime":723.831,"endTime":725.211,"body":"don't remember what it was 18 months."},{"startTime":725.211,"endTime":726.262,"body":"I don't, I don't remember was it?"},{"startTime":726.421,"endTime":726.861,"body":"It is you're right."},{"startTime":726.861,"endTime":727.301,"body":"Something like that."},{"startTime":727.321,"endTime":731.621,"body":"So there's many more requirements to say"},{"startTime":727.321,"endTime":731.621,"body":"that now, now I only have the entry , PO"},{"startTime":731.651,"endTime":736.451,"body":"cert because after taking the ACSM, I was"},{"startTime":731.651,"endTime":736.451,"body":"like, I don't really see a lot of value"},{"startTime":736.511,"endTime":740.711,"body":"in going back and getting the advanced."},{"startTime":741.281,"endTime":744.011,"body":"Or professional, any,"},{"startTime":741.281,"endTime":744.011,"body":"anything quite honestly."},{"startTime":744.491,"endTime":745.631,"body":"Uh, so you you're right."},{"startTime":745.861,"endTime":747.877,"body":"I don't what you need to go"},{"startTime":745.861,"endTime":747.877,"body":"to the professional level"},{"startTime":747.967,"endTime":749.917,"body":"above the advanced level."},{"startTime":749.917,"endTime":750.757,"body":"I don't know what you need."},{"startTime":750.817,"endTime":753.097,"body":"You need the advanced"},{"startTime":750.817,"endTime":753.097,"body":"certificate is what you need."},{"startTime":753.397,"endTime":756.627,"body":"Yeah, but I don't know how much more"},{"startTime":753.397,"endTime":756.627,"body":"industry experience they require past."},{"startTime":756.627,"endTime":757.497,"body":"I'm not aware of it."},{"startTime":757.497,"endTime":758.427,"body":"I've I've gone through it."},{"startTime":758.487,"endTime":759.387,"body":"I'm not aware of it."},{"startTime":759.657,"endTime":759.687,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":759.687,"endTime":762.867,"body":"What I don't, what I know also is that"},{"startTime":759.687,"endTime":762.867,"body":"from the professional, getting up to"},{"startTime":762.867,"endTime":765.447,"body":"CST, you do need to shadow people."},{"startTime":765.717,"endTime":769.737,"body":"You need to you need to get certain"},{"startTime":765.717,"endTime":769.737,"body":"number of hours as it were coaching"},{"startTime":769.737,"endTime":771.267,"body":"hours under your belt, et cetera."},{"startTime":771.867,"endTime":777.077,"body":"But that's academic mm-hmm  that is not"},{"startTime":771.867,"endTime":777.077,"body":"practicing using the knowledge you've"},{"startTime":777.077,"endTime":781.447,"body":"acquired for a living mm-hmm  working"},{"startTime":777.077,"endTime":781.447,"body":"for a company doing it in the field."},{"startTime":781.452,"endTime":781.747,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":781.747,"endTime":783.607,"body":"I think that's lacking personally."},{"startTime":784.027,"endTime":784.147,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":784.227,"endTime":784.467,"body":", yeah."},{"startTime":784.467,"endTime":790.107,"body":"I mean, look, the PMI requires a"},{"startTime":784.467,"endTime":790.107,"body":"thousand hours of something, project"},{"startTime":790.107,"endTime":793.017,"body":"admin, something like that before"},{"startTime":790.107,"endTime":793.017,"body":"they'll grant you a certificate."},{"startTime":793.317,"endTime":793.587,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":793.917,"endTime":795.027,"body":"But that's not real."},{"startTime":795.527,"endTime":799.277,"body":"Work practicing as a project"},{"startTime":795.527,"endTime":799.277,"body":"manager, you're doing something"},{"startTime":799.277,"endTime":801.107,"body":"to say I've worked essentially."},{"startTime":801.227,"endTime":801.437,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":801.607,"endTime":802.657,"body":"which I think is a gap."},{"startTime":802.662,"endTime":803.287,"body":"I really do."},{"startTime":803.287,"endTime":807.327,"body":"I think if you are at the top level,"},{"startTime":803.287,"endTime":807.327,"body":"providing certificates as certified"},{"startTime":807.327,"endTime":812.737,"body":"trainer, you need to have worked in the"},{"startTime":807.327,"endTime":812.737,"body":"industry as that person for a while, it's"},{"startTime":812.737,"endTime":817.777,"body":"a, as a PO for a number of years, perhaps"},{"startTime":812.737,"endTime":817.777,"body":"even led something senior in the company."},{"startTime":817.777,"endTime":818.977,"body":"I, I think that's fair."},{"startTime":819.277,"endTime":822.457,"body":"I don't know how you don't do"},{"startTime":819.277,"endTime":822.457,"body":"that and still come out with"},{"startTime":822.607,"endTime":823.807,"body":"the quality that's needed."},{"startTime":824.027,"endTime":829.367,"body":"I can say with a hundred percent"},{"startTime":824.027,"endTime":829.367,"body":"certainty that for the CSPO that this"},{"startTime":829.367,"endTime":834.857,"body":"was a certified scrum trainer for"},{"startTime":829.367,"endTime":834.857,"body":"product owners and he did not have any"},{"startTime":834.917,"endTime":837.857,"body":"product owner experience firsthand."},{"startTime":838.067,"endTime":841.097,"body":"Now as a SCR, he was a scrum"},{"startTime":838.067,"endTime":841.097,"body":"master and a developer."},{"startTime":841.662,"endTime":846.962,"body":", practiced, both knew the scrum guide"},{"startTime":841.662,"endTime":846.962,"body":"forward and backward, , interpret it"},{"startTime":846.962,"endTime":849.392,"body":"uniquely, but knew the scrum guide."},{"startTime":849.782,"endTime":851.547,"body":"but had zero yeah."},{"startTime":851.647,"endTime":853.327,"body":"You know, firsthand knowledge."},{"startTime":853.417,"endTime":853.567,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":853.627,"endTime":858.787,"body":"What, what he did do was work"},{"startTime":853.627,"endTime":858.787,"body":"with product owners as a scrum"},{"startTime":858.787,"endTime":861.187,"body":"master, but that's not the same."},{"startTime":861.577,"endTime":862.897,"body":"That's not the same thing."},{"startTime":863.077,"endTime":865.717,"body":"Is that like a, like a"},{"startTime":863.077,"endTime":865.717,"body":"movie based on the book?"},{"startTime":865.717,"endTime":868.237,"body":"Is that like really a TV"},{"startTime":865.717,"endTime":868.237,"body":"movie based on the book?"},{"startTime":868.287,"endTime":871.887,"body":"let me, I don't ever get to take"},{"startTime":868.287,"endTime":871.887,"body":"the you can do it opinionated."},{"startTime":872.067,"endTime":872.247,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":872.247,"endTime":874.897,"body":"You, you go to the other side"},{"startTime":872.247,"endTime":874.897,"body":"home because I need someone to"},{"startTime":874.897,"endTime":876.547,"body":"back up my rant for a second."},{"startTime":876.547,"endTime":876.847,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":877.427,"endTime":879.617,"body":"If you tell me that your developer."},{"startTime":880.457,"endTime":881.897,"body":"and you're the scrum master for your team?"},{"startTime":882.197,"endTime":885.287,"body":"I'm automatically suspect"},{"startTime":882.197,"endTime":885.287,"body":"automatically I'm suspect."},{"startTime":885.437,"endTime":889.587,"body":"Cause a lot of times I see technical"},{"startTime":885.437,"endTime":889.587,"body":"leads or  somebody in a supervisory"},{"startTime":889.592,"endTime":893.697,"body":"level in development who plays"},{"startTime":889.592,"endTime":893.697,"body":"the role of the scrum master."},{"startTime":893.697,"endTime":896.517,"body":"They think that like, that they think"},{"startTime":893.697,"endTime":896.517,"body":"the scrum master's job is just to like"},{"startTime":896.727,"endTime":899.637,"body":"run the meetings and go down the board"},{"startTime":896.727,"endTime":899.637,"body":"and be like, what are you working on?"},{"startTime":899.637,"endTime":900.627,"body":"What are you working on?"},{"startTime":900.627,"endTime":901.557,"body":"What are you working on?"},{"startTime":901.557,"endTime":904.107,"body":"How, how come you hadn't taken"},{"startTime":901.557,"endTime":904.107,"body":"this item, you should be done with"},{"startTime":904.107,"endTime":905.577,"body":"this item, pick this next item up."},{"startTime":905.637,"endTime":907.227,"body":"And that's what they"},{"startTime":905.637,"endTime":907.227,"body":"think is a scrum master."},{"startTime":907.497,"endTime":907.587,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":907.642,"endTime":911.717,"body":"But beyond my, my normal incendiary"},{"startTime":907.642,"endTime":911.717,"body":"rant cause I'm on the heavily"},{"startTime":911.717,"endTime":913.517,"body":"edited Brian cam right now."},{"startTime":913.757,"endTime":917.957,"body":"I, I would challenge those people to say"},{"startTime":913.757,"endTime":917.957,"body":"like, have they ever climbed the ladder"},{"startTime":917.957,"endTime":919.907,"body":"in their organization to lobby for change?"},{"startTime":920.057,"endTime":923.657,"body":"Have they ever in their organization"},{"startTime":920.057,"endTime":923.657,"body":"connected with leadership to try to"},{"startTime":923.657,"endTime":926.837,"body":"influence the way that product does"},{"startTime":923.657,"endTime":926.837,"body":"roadmaps or to influence the way that"},{"startTime":926.867,"endTime":931.067,"body":"budgets are done or to influence the, the"},{"startTime":926.867,"endTime":931.067,"body":"way that teams are broken down or to lobby"},{"startTime":931.067,"endTime":938.117,"body":"for small teams and end to stay out of"},{"startTime":931.067,"endTime":938.117,"body":"particular key discussions about the way"},{"startTime":938.117,"endTime":941.147,"body":"certain things are developed specifically."},{"startTime":941.327,"endTime":945.497,"body":"Like have they done that while also"},{"startTime":941.327,"endTime":945.497,"body":"serving in the capacity as a scrum master?"},{"startTime":945.557,"endTime":947.357,"body":"And usually I find out that's not true."},{"startTime":947.417,"endTime":947.987,"body":"No, they haven't."},{"startTime":948.167,"endTime":948.917,"body":"No, they they're."},{"startTime":948.917,"endTime":952.547,"body":"They're just the boss with a"},{"startTime":948.917,"endTime":952.547,"body":"new title because they think"},{"startTime":952.547,"endTime":953.837,"body":"that's what most applies."},{"startTime":954.047,"endTime":956.927,"body":"That that's what I have seen"},{"startTime":954.047,"endTime":956.927,"body":"and I'll stand by that one."},{"startTime":957.197,"endTime":959.092,"body":"And I I'm happy to die on that hill."},{"startTime":960.062,"endTime":965.912,"body":"I have experienced and witnessed the"},{"startTime":960.062,"endTime":965.912,"body":"same, the, the same thing  what's"},{"startTime":965.912,"endTime":972.242,"body":"interesting is that I didn't know that"},{"startTime":965.912,"endTime":972.242,"body":"the animosity, that there is the undertone"},{"startTime":972.242,"endTime":976.802,"body":"of animosity, that there is in so many"},{"startTime":972.242,"endTime":976.802,"body":"organizations and it may be something"},{"startTime":976.802,"endTime":982.712,"body":"similar to what you're describing between"},{"startTime":976.802,"endTime":982.712,"body":"development and even scrum masters and"},{"startTime":982.712,"endTime":988.617,"body":"maybe it's scrum master or slash developer"},{"startTime":982.712,"endTime":988.617,"body":"integrated and the product owner where I."},{"startTime":989.142,"endTime":992.892,"body":"Have always worked truly"},{"startTime":989.142,"endTime":992.892,"body":"as part of that scrum team."},{"startTime":992.922,"endTime":993.012,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":993.442,"endTime":997.787,"body":"and embraced that and worked"},{"startTime":993.442,"endTime":997.787,"body":"collaboratively with my scrum master."},{"startTime":997.877,"endTime":998.027,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":998.087,"endTime":1002.287,"body":"And I'm finding that that's not"},{"startTime":998.087,"endTime":1002.287,"body":"necessarily the case where you've got the"},{"startTime":1002.317,"endTime":1006.607,"body":"villain product owner, who's the dictator"},{"startTime":1002.317,"endTime":1006.607,"body":"trying to shove things down your throat."},{"startTime":1007.237,"endTime":1010.567,"body":"I, I mean, I haven't personally"},{"startTime":1007.237,"endTime":1010.567,"body":"ever done that or learned to"},{"startTime":1010.567,"endTime":1012.457,"body":"do that or experience that."},{"startTime":1012.457,"endTime":1015.187,"body":"So that's just not the way I"},{"startTime":1012.457,"endTime":1015.187,"body":"learned to work, fortunately."},{"startTime":1015.427,"endTime":1015.667,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":1016.447,"endTime":1019.057,"body":"So I'm gonna take the contrarian"},{"startTime":1016.447,"endTime":1019.057,"body":"interview cuz we have to it's"},{"startTime":1019.062,"endTime":1020.527,"body":"time argue gradual it's it's time."},{"startTime":1020.557,"endTime":1020.887,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1021.217,"endTime":1024.877,"body":"Brian, anybody on the team could"},{"startTime":1021.217,"endTime":1024.877,"body":"play the role of a scrum master."},{"startTime":1024.877,"endTime":1025.927,"body":"Why not a developer?"},{"startTime":1025.987,"endTime":1026.857,"body":"Why not tester?"},{"startTime":1027.357,"endTime":1028.647,"body":"I'll self organizing."},{"startTime":1028.647,"endTime":1029.067,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1029.487,"endTime":1034.077,"body":"I'll take a tester over a developer"},{"startTime":1029.487,"endTime":1034.077,"body":"any day of the week because their,"},{"startTime":1034.082,"endTime":1038.277,"body":"their discipline lends itself to what"},{"startTime":1034.082,"endTime":1038.277,"body":"a scrum master does empowers a team"},{"startTime":1038.337,"endTime":1042.032,"body":"unblocks, a team drives out into the"},{"startTime":1038.337,"endTime":1042.032,"body":"organization for what the team needs"},{"startTime":1042.032,"endTime":1043.532,"body":"rather than a developer, because."},{"startTime":1044.112,"endTime":1050.002,"body":"there is a chance, with the tester,"},{"startTime":1044.112,"endTime":1050.002,"body":"there is a chance of like the, I feel"},{"startTime":1050.007,"endTime":1056.772,"body":"you need an extraordinary developer to"},{"startTime":1050.007,"endTime":1056.772,"body":"be able to both see the technical domain"},{"startTime":1056.772,"endTime":1060.702,"body":"in front of them, the business problem"},{"startTime":1056.772,"endTime":1060.702,"body":"in front of them and how it connects"},{"startTime":1060.972,"endTime":1062.522,"body":"to what connects to the customer."},{"startTime":1062.972,"endTime":1064.232,"body":"There's three things, there's it?"},{"startTime":1064.232,"endTime":1070.892,"body":"There's the internal, technically the"},{"startTime":1064.232,"endTime":1070.892,"body":"internal team, the external to the rest"},{"startTime":1070.897,"endTime":1074.762,"body":"of the business, but still in internal"},{"startTime":1070.897,"endTime":1074.762,"body":"to the company and then external"},{"startTime":1074.822,"endTime":1076.232,"body":"from the company to the customer."},{"startTime":1076.442,"endTime":1079.292,"body":"There's three different viewpoints"},{"startTime":1076.442,"endTime":1079.292,"body":"when you're talking about any"},{"startTime":1079.292,"endTime":1083.242,"body":"one thing and that person needs"},{"startTime":1079.292,"endTime":1083.242,"body":"to see those three perspectives."},{"startTime":1083.372,"endTime":1085.502,"body":"So I guess what I'm saying"},{"startTime":1083.372,"endTime":1085.502,"body":"to, to wrap what I'm saying"},{"startTime":1085.502,"endTime":1087.722,"body":"is there needs to be whoever."},{"startTime":1088.442,"endTime":1092.222,"body":"Playing the role  playing, playing around."},{"startTime":1092.722,"endTime":1095.612,"body":"that's good to own land who"},{"startTime":1092.722,"endTime":1095.612,"body":"whoever's playing the role needs"},{"startTime":1095.617,"endTime":1100.842,"body":"to have a certain level of empathy"},{"startTime":1095.617,"endTime":1100.842,"body":"for a wide range of audience."},{"startTime":1101.292,"endTime":1105.222,"body":"So staying on the opposite stance,"},{"startTime":1101.292,"endTime":1105.222,"body":"I'll say isn't that what we have"},{"startTime":1105.222,"endTime":1107.382,"body":"the POS for and product managers."},{"startTime":1107.562,"endTime":1108.882,"body":"They talk to the customers."},{"startTime":1109.092,"endTime":1110.292,"body":"They're the voice of the customer."},{"startTime":1110.292,"endTime":1111.012,"body":"We talk to them."},{"startTime":1111.012,"endTime":1111.972,"body":"They talk to the customer."},{"startTime":1112.472,"endTime":1112.802,"body":"I'm sorry."},{"startTime":1112.832,"endTime":1113.162,"body":"I'm sorry."},{"startTime":1113.162,"endTime":1114.362,"body":"I wasn't, I wasn't listening."},{"startTime":1114.362,"endTime":1115.442,"body":"Say, say that again."},{"startTime":1115.442,"endTime":1115.742,"body":"I'm sorry."},{"startTime":1115.742,"endTime":1116.582,"body":"I didn't catch any of that."},{"startTime":1117.062,"endTime":1120.662,"body":"So the pro that the product owner was"},{"startTime":1117.062,"endTime":1120.662,"body":"the advocate and the translator for"},{"startTime":1120.662,"endTime":1122.372,"body":"the customer to the, to the developer."},{"startTime":1122.372,"endTime":1124.842,"body":"So the developer doesn't need"},{"startTime":1122.372,"endTime":1124.842,"body":"to think about that and have"},{"startTime":1124.842,"endTime":1126.012,"body":"empathy for the customer."},{"startTime":1126.012,"endTime":1127.122,"body":"They far removed."},{"startTime":1127.182,"endTime":1127.542,"body":"Sorry."},{"startTime":1127.602,"endTime":1128.412,"body":"Wrong, wrong, wrong."},{"startTime":1128.442,"endTime":1129.072,"body":"I still wrong."},{"startTime":1129.132,"endTime":1130.812,"body":"Still didn't catch any, I'm sorry."},{"startTime":1130.812,"endTime":1134.217,"body":"Like on purpose in, in the world"},{"startTime":1130.812,"endTime":1134.217,"body":"that you've brought up, somehow"},{"startTime":1134.457,"endTime":1137.527,"body":"everybody on the team doesn't talk"},{"startTime":1134.457,"endTime":1137.527,"body":"to the customer like that, that"},{"startTime":1137.667,"endTime":1138.927,"body":"that's, that's, what's getting lost."},{"startTime":1138.927,"endTime":1142.077,"body":"So why, why I'm losing what you're"},{"startTime":1138.927,"endTime":1142.077,"body":"saying, maybe in the editing, it'll be"},{"startTime":1142.077,"endTime":1145.137,"body":"more clear to what you're saying can"},{"startTime":1142.077,"endTime":1145.137,"body":"you please restate what you just said?"},{"startTime":1145.137,"endTime":1149.457,"body":"I will restate the developer who is"},{"startTime":1145.137,"endTime":1149.457,"body":"playing the part of his scrum master,"},{"startTime":1150.077,"endTime":1152.707,"body":"in this case, , you're"},{"startTime":1150.077,"endTime":1152.707,"body":"saying need to have empathy."},{"startTime":1153.682,"endTime":1154.342,"body":"The customer."},{"startTime":1154.402,"endTime":1154.702,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1154.702,"endTime":1158.602,"body":"And I'm saying as that developer"},{"startTime":1154.702,"endTime":1158.602,"body":"taking on that hat, which is very"},{"startTime":1158.602,"endTime":1163.942,"body":"uncomfortable, by the way, that , the,"},{"startTime":1158.602,"endTime":1163.942,"body":"the developer would argue, why do I have"},{"startTime":1163.942,"endTime":1166.162,"body":"to be em, empathetic with the customer?"},{"startTime":1166.162,"endTime":1169.702,"body":"Isn't that the product on his job there,"},{"startTime":1166.162,"endTime":1169.702,"body":"after all are the voice of the customer."},{"startTime":1170.212,"endTime":1171.712,"body":"You, did you tell us what?"},{"startTime":1171.712,"endTime":1173.662,"body":"And we'll figure out"},{"startTime":1171.712,"endTime":1173.662,"body":"how and leave me alone."},{"startTime":1173.932,"endTime":1175.732,"body":"I'm going back to the"},{"startTime":1173.932,"endTime":1175.732,"body":"basement with my team."},{"startTime":1175.832,"endTime":1176.122,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1176.922,"endTime":1180.202,"body":"You get, you get him stormy and then I'll"},{"startTime":1176.922,"endTime":1180.202,"body":"jump on after I have him mentioned that"},{"startTime":1180.652,"endTime":1187.217,"body":"so as a good product owner, so number"},{"startTime":1180.652,"endTime":1187.217,"body":"one, I should be or a good product owner"},{"startTime":1187.217,"endTime":1191.147,"body":"should be involving the entire scrum team."},{"startTime":1191.627,"endTime":1192.677,"body":"With the customer."},{"startTime":1192.677,"endTime":1198.547,"body":"So one of the practices that I that I"},{"startTime":1192.677,"endTime":1198.547,"body":"regularly enact is getting my development"},{"startTime":1198.547,"endTime":1202.927,"body":"team and the scrum master dependent"},{"startTime":1198.547,"endTime":1202.927,"body":"on if they're assigned directly to our"},{"startTime":1202.927,"endTime":1208.567,"body":"team  or potentially multiples, but"},{"startTime":1202.927,"endTime":1208.567,"body":"getting them involved with, , regular"},{"startTime":1208.627,"endTime":1212.647,"body":"interactions with the customer and"},{"startTime":1208.627,"endTime":1212.647,"body":"what I've found to be very effective"},{"startTime":1212.677,"endTime":1215.537,"body":"is and beyond just the sprint review."},{"startTime":1215.537,"endTime":1219.947,"body":"So I'm talking about literally that, that"},{"startTime":1215.537,"endTime":1219.947,"body":"middle of the, so we get feedback loop"},{"startTime":1219.977,"endTime":1224.327,"body":"we're getting that feedback loop in sprint"},{"startTime":1219.977,"endTime":1224.327,"body":"review, but as a product owner in between"},{"startTime":1224.332,"endTime":1229.697,"body":"those two weeks, I'm continuously going"},{"startTime":1224.332,"endTime":1229.697,"body":"back or should have scheduled time to"},{"startTime":1229.702,"endTime":1234.177,"body":"work with my friendlies or people that I"},{"startTime":1229.702,"endTime":1234.177,"body":"am kind of checking in with and saying,"},{"startTime":1234.182,"endTime":1235.677,"body":"here's what we're moving forward with."},{"startTime":1235.682,"endTime":1239.127,"body":"I might have some really low"},{"startTime":1235.682,"endTime":1239.127,"body":"fidelity ideas and that's a"},{"startTime":1239.132,"endTime":1240.417,"body":"meeting that I have found."},{"startTime":1240.917,"endTime":1246.197,"body":"Intensely beneficial to bring my"},{"startTime":1240.917,"endTime":1246.197,"body":"development team into and all of a sudden,"},{"startTime":1246.497,"endTime":1251.537,"body":"and oftentimes those development teams"},{"startTime":1246.497,"endTime":1251.537,"body":"have never experienced anything like that."},{"startTime":1251.537,"endTime":1255.857,"body":"So they're developing, or we have an"},{"startTime":1251.537,"endTime":1255.857,"body":"idea and I'm going to put it in front"},{"startTime":1255.857,"endTime":1259.787,"body":"of a customer and I'm going to do"},{"startTime":1255.857,"endTime":1259.787,"body":"kind of an AB test or I'm going to do"},{"startTime":1259.787,"endTime":1264.137,"body":"some low fidelity type thing and go"},{"startTime":1259.787,"endTime":1264.137,"body":"like, tell me how you would use this."},{"startTime":1264.317,"endTime":1266.117,"body":"Tell me how you might"},{"startTime":1264.317,"endTime":1266.117,"body":"how would you use this?"},{"startTime":1266.117,"endTime":1268.787,"body":"And all of a sudden they're seeing"},{"startTime":1266.117,"endTime":1268.787,"body":"themselves get stuck because they have"},{"startTime":1268.787,"endTime":1272.207,"body":"a modal popped up and it says start"},{"startTime":1268.787,"endTime":1272.207,"body":"and right below it, there's a start on"},{"startTime":1272.212,"endTime":1274.807,"body":"the bottom of the screen and they're"},{"startTime":1272.212,"endTime":1274.807,"body":"going I'm confused, which start."},{"startTime":1274.807,"endTime":1278.767,"body":"And all of a sudden I have a developer"},{"startTime":1274.807,"endTime":1278.767,"body":"that's going like oh, I can see why that"},{"startTime":1278.767,"endTime":1280.987,"body":"would be confusing for the end user."},{"startTime":1280.992,"endTime":1281.137,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1281.377,"endTime":1282.427,"body":"Light bulbs are going off."},{"startTime":1282.427,"endTime":1286.387,"body":"So I think that's on the product owner to"},{"startTime":1282.427,"endTime":1286.387,"body":"absolutely should be on the product owner."},{"startTime":1286.937,"endTime":1290.587,"body":"Everyone should be empathizing with the"},{"startTime":1286.937,"endTime":1290.587,"body":"end user that's who we're building for"},{"startTime":1290.797,"endTime":1296.467,"body":"and all of a sudden, oh my gosh, the mind"},{"startTime":1290.797,"endTime":1296.467,"body":"shift change of that development team."},{"startTime":1296.857,"endTime":1298.237,"body":"So that's been amazing."},{"startTime":1298.267,"endTime":1301.117,"body":"Number two, just a point that"},{"startTime":1298.267,"endTime":1301.117,"body":"I wanted to make to yours."},{"startTime":1301.117,"endTime":1306.457,"body":"And that is that if you have a good scrum"},{"startTime":1301.117,"endTime":1306.457,"body":"master and you have a scrum master who"},{"startTime":1306.462,"endTime":1316.207,"body":"is instilling all of the knowledge and"},{"startTime":1306.462,"endTime":1316.207,"body":"values and truly in helping your team"},{"startTime":1316.207,"endTime":1320.477,"body":"embody whatever framework you happen"},{"startTime":1316.207,"endTime":1320.477,"body":"to be using, but agile principles or"},{"startTime":1320.477,"endTime":1325.867,"body":"scrum or XP or kanban, whatever it is, I"},{"startTime":1320.477,"endTime":1325.867,"body":"mean, ultimately they should be working"},{"startTime":1326.167,"endTime":1328.207,"body":"themselves out of the job, out of a job."},{"startTime":1328.207,"endTime":1328.567,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1328.747,"endTime":1334.567,"body":"So ultimately we should have a development"},{"startTime":1328.747,"endTime":1334.567,"body":"team that can be able to make those"},{"startTime":1334.572,"endTime":1340.507,"body":"decisions and facilitate a meeting"},{"startTime":1334.572,"endTime":1340.507,"body":"because they are mature enough or"},{"startTime":1340.567,"endTime":1343.387,"body":"have become mature enough, to do that."},{"startTime":1343.627,"endTime":1343.957,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1343.957,"endTime":1347.692,"body":"So if you've got a good scrum master"},{"startTime":1343.957,"endTime":1347.692,"body":"and you've got a mature team there"},{"startTime":1347.692,"endTime":1352.192,"body":"is definitely a possibility that"},{"startTime":1347.692,"endTime":1352.192,"body":"you could have a team that is able"},{"startTime":1352.197,"endTime":1356.602,"body":"to be self functioning in that way"},{"startTime":1352.197,"endTime":1356.602,"body":"without necessarily the overarching,"},{"startTime":1356.962,"endTime":1358.462,"body":"constant eye of a scrum master."},{"startTime":1358.962,"endTime":1361.902,"body":"So while I agree with everything you"},{"startTime":1358.962,"endTime":1361.902,"body":"said, I'm gonna stay on this side."},{"startTime":1362.022,"endTime":1362.052,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1362.052,"endTime":1363.642,"body":"I'll put on my defensive posture."},{"startTime":1364.142,"endTime":1368.132,"body":"So as a developer,  you're saying,"},{"startTime":1364.142,"endTime":1368.132,"body":"why are things not getting done in"},{"startTime":1368.132,"endTime":1370.562,"body":"the sprint, but then you involve"},{"startTime":1368.132,"endTime":1370.562,"body":"me with all these meetings, with"},{"startTime":1370.562,"endTime":1371.912,"body":"the customer and everything else."},{"startTime":1371.912,"endTime":1373.442,"body":"And just a waste of time."},{"startTime":1373.447,"endTime":1373.772,"body":"Really?"},{"startTime":1373.772,"endTime":1374.582,"body":"For developers."},{"startTime":1374.582,"endTime":1375.872,"body":"That's somebody else's job."},{"startTime":1376.442,"endTime":1377.432,"body":"You take the scrum master."},{"startTime":1377.432,"endTime":1380.372,"body":"If you want, take the BA you'll"},{"startTime":1377.432,"endTime":1380.372,"body":"just leave us developers alone."},{"startTime":1380.877,"endTime":1381.777,"body":"What do you say to that?"},{"startTime":1382.287,"endTime":1385.857,"body":"So, I mean, we should be"},{"startTime":1382.287,"endTime":1385.857,"body":"so we're empirical, right?"},{"startTime":1385.887,"endTime":1387.027,"body":"Oh, I was gonna say you're fired."},{"startTime":1387.627,"endTime":1388.317,"body":"Get off my team."},{"startTime":1389.047,"endTime":1389.557,"body":"No."},{"startTime":1389.562,"endTime":1391.147,"body":"So I'm gonna meet you where you are."},{"startTime":1391.537,"endTime":1395.077,"body":"So try to figure out why is it that"},{"startTime":1391.537,"endTime":1395.077,"body":"you're feeling that way, right?"},{"startTime":1395.077,"endTime":1399.097,"body":"So you are pushing back because"},{"startTime":1395.077,"endTime":1399.097,"body":"do you not have enough time?"},{"startTime":1399.127,"endTime":1400.297,"body":"You know, you're feeling stressed."},{"startTime":1400.297,"endTime":1402.607,"body":"You don't have enough time to get"},{"startTime":1400.297,"endTime":1402.607,"body":"done what you need to get done."},{"startTime":1402.612,"endTime":1403.837,"body":"Your needs aren't being met."},{"startTime":1403.837,"endTime":1405.277,"body":"You don't have the tools you need."},{"startTime":1405.277,"endTime":1406.837,"body":"I mean, what is it about this?"},{"startTime":1407.017,"endTime":1408.217,"body":"Do we not have trust?"},{"startTime":1408.277,"endTime":1408.547,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1408.552,"endTime":1412.097,"body":"Have I, I created that trust and"},{"startTime":1408.552,"endTime":1412.097,"body":"you don't see the value in it"},{"startTime":1412.097,"endTime":1413.447,"body":"because maybe you haven't tried it."},{"startTime":1413.447,"endTime":1416.327,"body":"So I'm going to meet you where"},{"startTime":1413.447,"endTime":1416.327,"body":"you are and say, you know what?"},{"startTime":1416.777,"endTime":1417.737,"body":"let's have an experiment."},{"startTime":1418.502,"endTime":1422.952,"body":"Come to, and I'm not asking you"},{"startTime":1418.502,"endTime":1422.952,"body":"to do this every week or multiple"},{"startTime":1422.952,"endTime":1427.542,"body":"times a week, maybe once a sprint,"},{"startTime":1422.952,"endTime":1427.542,"body":"maybe once every other sprint."},{"startTime":1427.902,"endTime":1428.322,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1428.532,"endTime":1430.932,"body":"So that you can stay related."},{"startTime":1430.937,"endTime":1436.632,"body":"And what I have never had a team"},{"startTime":1430.937,"endTime":1436.632,"body":"that didn't get so much out of those"},{"startTime":1436.632,"endTime":1441.672,"body":"meetings and feel like, and have"},{"startTime":1436.632,"endTime":1441.672,"body":"light bulbs go off and go like, wow."},{"startTime":1441.882,"endTime":1445.392,"body":"So I would ask you and say, you know what"},{"startTime":1441.882,"endTime":1445.392,"body":"I hear what you're saying, and I would"},{"startTime":1445.392,"endTime":1448.422,"body":"try to do a little of an exploration and"},{"startTime":1445.392,"endTime":1448.422,"body":"figure out where are you coming from?"},{"startTime":1448.422,"endTime":1452.562,"body":"You're pushing back and I wanna try and"},{"startTime":1448.422,"endTime":1452.562,"body":"figure out why and whether I can or not."},{"startTime":1452.562,"endTime":1456.302,"body":"I'm gonna ask you to trust me"},{"startTime":1452.562,"endTime":1456.302,"body":"and just come to one, see if we"},{"startTime":1456.302,"endTime":1457.532,"body":"can get some value out of that."},{"startTime":1457.532,"endTime":1459.632,"body":"And then we're gonna talk"},{"startTime":1457.532,"endTime":1459.632,"body":"about it in the retrospective."},{"startTime":1460.052,"endTime":1460.502,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1460.502,"endTime":1462.902,"body":"Well, I'm gonna stay on this"},{"startTime":1460.502,"endTime":1462.902,"body":"side just for this one last bit."},{"startTime":1463.142,"endTime":1464.342,"body":"It's very uncomfortable here."},{"startTime":1464.552,"endTime":1464.852,"body":"okay."},{"startTime":1464.852,"endTime":1465.272,"body":"Story."},{"startTime":1465.272,"endTime":1469.012,"body":"I can do that, but you"},{"startTime":1465.272,"endTime":1469.012,"body":"know, my matrix manager."},{"startTime":1469.512,"endTime":1473.922,"body":"I wants me to log the hours I do and"},{"startTime":1469.512,"endTime":1473.922,"body":"what I'm doing, how do I log this?"},{"startTime":1473.922,"endTime":1475.302,"body":"You spent time with the customer."},{"startTime":1475.302,"endTime":1479.592,"body":"I'm not developing, so I'm afraid I'm"},{"startTime":1475.302,"endTime":1479.592,"body":"gonna be judged cuz they're the ones that"},{"startTime":1479.592,"endTime":1482.442,"body":"are judging me, evaluating me, et cetera."},{"startTime":1482.952,"endTime":1484.842,"body":"so that's gonna come down badly on me."},{"startTime":1484.842,"endTime":1487.662,"body":"I won't get the raise I want,"},{"startTime":1484.842,"endTime":1487.662,"body":"because they're gonna see fewer"},{"startTime":1487.662,"endTime":1489.792,"body":"hours worked my hands on keyboard."},{"startTime":1489.972,"endTime":1490.422,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1490.452,"endTime":1491.622,"body":"They're they're fired too."},{"startTime":1492.267,"endTime":1492.312,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":1492.462,"endTime":1493.062,"body":"So yeah."},{"startTime":1493.062,"endTime":1496.212,"body":"So now I hear, I hear, I hear"},{"startTime":1493.062,"endTime":1496.212,"body":"an issue with psychological"},{"startTime":1496.217,"endTime":1497.682,"body":"safety here immediately."},{"startTime":1497.952,"endTime":1501.672,"body":"So I would be collaborating at this"},{"startTime":1497.952,"endTime":1501.672,"body":"point probably with the scrum master."},{"startTime":1501.882,"endTime":1503.652,"body":"That's an impediment for you, right?"},{"startTime":1503.892,"endTime":1507.102,"body":", so I'm hearing some issues with"},{"startTime":1503.892,"endTime":1507.102,"body":"trust and psychological safety."},{"startTime":1507.352,"endTime":1510.292,"body":", I dependent on the dynamics in the office."},{"startTime":1510.292,"endTime":1513.252,"body":"It might be something that I feel"},{"startTime":1510.292,"endTime":1513.252,"body":"comfortable kind of addressing IME."},{"startTime":1513.752,"endTime":1515.522,"body":", interacting individually."},{"startTime":1515.832,"endTime":1518.982,"body":", it may be something that I want to, and"},{"startTime":1515.832,"endTime":1518.982,"body":"probably most appropriate for me to get"},{"startTime":1518.982,"endTime":1524.592,"body":"the scrum master involved and make sure"},{"startTime":1518.982,"endTime":1524.592,"body":"that they're aware and see if we can"},{"startTime":1524.692,"endTime":1529.512,"body":", speak to this person and make sure that"},{"startTime":1524.692,"endTime":1529.512,"body":"they understand where we're coming from."},{"startTime":1529.722,"endTime":1531.642,"body":"Make sure that they get"},{"startTime":1529.722,"endTime":1531.642,"body":"on the right page with."},{"startTime":1532.337,"endTime":1536.207,"body":"So that you're not feeling the pressure"},{"startTime":1532.337,"endTime":1536.207,"body":"that you're gonna be somehow punished."},{"startTime":1536.357,"endTime":1536.627,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1536.627,"endTime":1538.757,"body":"And so we can come back to"},{"startTime":1536.627,"endTime":1538.757,"body":"you and say, you know what?"},{"startTime":1539.027,"endTime":1540.137,"body":"This has been cleared."},{"startTime":1540.317,"endTime":1541.547,"body":"We've got it okayed."},{"startTime":1541.677,"endTime":1545.517,"body":"We've created a bucket for you"},{"startTime":1541.677,"endTime":1545.517,"body":"to put your time in, so  that's"},{"startTime":1545.517,"endTime":1546.837,"body":"probably how I'd address that."},{"startTime":1547.337,"endTime":1547.577,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":1547.637,"endTime":1548.567,"body":"I'm off the other side."},{"startTime":1548.567,"endTime":1549.497,"body":"I don't like being there."},{"startTime":1549.997,"endTime":1553.117,"body":"I know, I know I, how you"},{"startTime":1549.997,"endTime":1553.117,"body":"do it, we can week out."},{"startTime":1553.117,"endTime":1553.417,"body":"I know."},{"startTime":1553.417,"endTime":1554.197,"body":"What are your thoughts?"},{"startTime":1554.257,"endTime":1555.157,"body":"I don't have any thoughts."},{"startTime":1555.277,"endTime":1556.327,"body":"I, I, you have so many thoughts."},{"startTime":1556.557,"endTime":1558.832,"body":"My mind is a a quiet rage at this point"},{"startTime":1558.932,"endTime":1564.232,"body":"you guys just you've funneled it"},{"startTime":1558.932,"endTime":1564.232,"body":"down to the scrum master's job of"},{"startTime":1564.232,"endTime":1567.022,"body":"driving around the organization"},{"startTime":1564.232,"endTime":1567.022,"body":"to figure out like, wait a minute."},{"startTime":1567.022,"endTime":1570.832,"body":"Is this person's development"},{"startTime":1567.022,"endTime":1570.832,"body":"manager looking at them from the"},{"startTime":1570.837,"endTime":1573.622,"body":"perspective of how many hours"},{"startTime":1570.837,"endTime":1573.622,"body":"are you punching into an actual"},{"startTime":1573.622,"endTime":1575.872,"body":"development work doing versus doing."},{"startTime":1576.317,"endTime":1581.117,"body":"You know, quote non-development"},{"startTime":1576.317,"endTime":1581.117,"body":"work or, or non-productive work."},{"startTime":1581.117,"endTime":1582.257,"body":"I gotta put it that way."},{"startTime":1582.257,"endTime":1582.857,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":1582.907,"endTime":1585.697,"body":"like it's not, non-productive like,"},{"startTime":1582.907,"endTime":1585.697,"body":"I, I, as a product owner would"},{"startTime":1585.697,"endTime":1587.497,"body":"be what's the word in, in size?"},{"startTime":1587.502,"endTime":1589.927,"body":"Is that the word inci,"},{"startTime":1587.502,"endTime":1589.927,"body":"like in sensens in size?"},{"startTime":1589.927,"endTime":1590.407,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":1590.412,"endTime":1593.437,"body":"In senses, in, in inside"},{"startTime":1590.412,"endTime":1593.437,"body":"devised would sense."},{"startTime":1593.437,"endTime":1595.687,"body":"No, enraged would be my clear word."},{"startTime":1595.927,"endTime":1598.987,"body":"In a matrix organization, I have to"},{"startTime":1595.927,"endTime":1598.987,"body":"assume that my developers that are"},{"startTime":1598.987,"endTime":1604.667,"body":"on my team as a product owner are"},{"startTime":1598.987,"endTime":1604.667,"body":"under the supervisory, level of some"},{"startTime":1604.667,"endTime":1607.247,"body":"development manager or director of"},{"startTime":1604.667,"endTime":1607.247,"body":"development or somebody somewhere else."},{"startTime":1607.247,"endTime":1611.197,"body":"And then maybe my testers are under some"},{"startTime":1607.247,"endTime":1611.197,"body":"test manager or something like that."},{"startTime":1611.257,"endTime":1611.527,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1611.587,"endTime":1614.107,"body":"And maybe all the product owners are"},{"startTime":1611.587,"endTime":1614.107,"body":"under one product and maybe, maybe"},{"startTime":1614.107,"endTime":1615.367,"body":"the scrum masters are under whatever."},{"startTime":1615.367,"endTime":1617.497,"body":"If we actually have, if we're"},{"startTime":1615.367,"endTime":1617.497,"body":"lucky enough to have scrum"},{"startTime":1617.497,"endTime":1618.907,"body":"masters, maybe they're under some."},{"startTime":1619.672,"endTime":1623.122,"body":"I agile coach or something like that,"},{"startTime":1619.672,"endTime":1623.122,"body":"organizationally, or maybe developers"},{"startTime":1623.127,"endTime":1626.482,"body":"are, people are playing their role"},{"startTime":1623.127,"endTime":1626.482,"body":"halftime or whatever part-time and we"},{"startTime":1626.482,"endTime":1629.932,"body":"don't really have any the nice thing"},{"startTime":1626.482,"endTime":1629.932,"body":"about organizations like that, like"},{"startTime":1629.932,"endTime":1634.642,"body":"I used to not like organizations like"},{"startTime":1629.932,"endTime":1634.642,"body":"that, because I feel that if they're not"},{"startTime":1634.642,"endTime":1641.102,"body":"valuing the role of having somebody as an"},{"startTime":1634.642,"endTime":1641.102,"body":"organizational change agent full time they"},{"startTime":1641.102,"endTime":1643.622,"body":"really don't understand what they don't"},{"startTime":1641.102,"endTime":1643.622,"body":"really understand the agility and they"},{"startTime":1643.627,"endTime":1648.212,"body":"don't really care about improving and all"},{"startTime":1643.627,"endTime":1648.212,"body":"that stuff is just like nonsense to them."},{"startTime":1648.392,"endTime":1648.932,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1648.932,"endTime":1653.442,"body":"So fluff, I, I don't know a better way to"},{"startTime":1648.932,"endTime":1653.442,"body":"explain I used to think that way and then,"},{"startTime":1653.532,"endTime":1657.972,"body":", it's still sort of think that way , but,"},{"startTime":1653.532,"endTime":1657.972,"body":"when my developers like ask me like, Hey,"},{"startTime":1657.972,"endTime":1661.932,"body":"well whoa, other than running the events"},{"startTime":1657.972,"endTime":1661.932,"body":"what should I be doing as a scrum master?"},{"startTime":1661.932,"endTime":1666.042,"body":"I'm like, well, you should be climbing"},{"startTime":1661.932,"endTime":1666.042,"body":"in the organization to  your next"},{"startTime":1666.042,"endTime":1669.912,"body":"supervisory level and the level above"},{"startTime":1666.042,"endTime":1669.912,"body":"that to implement change, that helps"},{"startTime":1669.912,"endTime":1671.562,"body":"our team, that unblocks our team."},{"startTime":1671.802,"endTime":1677.032,"body":"And if one of the blockers of our team"},{"startTime":1671.802,"endTime":1677.032,"body":"is, for example, oh, we're all measured"},{"startTime":1677.532,"endTime":1683.292,"body":"individually with the number, the number"},{"startTime":1677.532,"endTime":1683.292,"body":"of check in checkouts or whatever lines of"},{"startTime":1683.292,"endTime":1684.472,"body":"code lines of code or something like that."},{"startTime":1684.472,"endTime":1685.402,"body":"We're all individually matter."},{"startTime":1685.402,"endTime":1688.522,"body":"At the end of the year, our performance"},{"startTime":1685.402,"endTime":1688.522,"body":"is measured based on that or that"},{"startTime":1688.522,"endTime":1690.232,"body":"number of bugs or something like that."},{"startTime":1690.732,"endTime":1695.187,"body":"We all work as a team and everything gets"},{"startTime":1690.732,"endTime":1695.187,"body":"checked in and needs, a couple of , code"},{"startTime":1695.187,"endTime":1699.297,"body":"review, check off whatever on the PR"},{"startTime":1695.187,"endTime":1699.297,"body":"you know, a couple different people to"},{"startTime":1699.297,"endTime":1701.007,"body":"approve the PR or whatever approvals."},{"startTime":1701.007,"endTime":1701.517,"body":"That's what it's called."},{"startTime":1701.827,"endTime":1705.667,"body":", it's called that why are the metrics,"},{"startTime":1701.827,"endTime":1705.667,"body":"the hard metrics I'm being judged by?"},{"startTime":1705.967,"endTime":1707.587,"body":"Why are they one way?"},{"startTime":1707.857,"endTime":1711.697,"body":"And then the entire way that I"},{"startTime":1707.857,"endTime":1711.697,"body":"work day to day is a completely"},{"startTime":1711.702,"endTime":1716.257,"body":"separate, is completely separated"},{"startTime":1711.702,"endTime":1716.257,"body":"from what I'm judged on, you know?"},{"startTime":1716.257,"endTime":1720.667,"body":"So,  the, the, I should be judged"},{"startTime":1716.257,"endTime":1720.667,"body":"on the teamwork, the whole team,"},{"startTime":1720.727,"endTime":1724.597,"body":"and then the bonuses and all that"},{"startTime":1720.727,"endTime":1724.597,"body":"stuff should be collective as a team."},{"startTime":1725.017,"endTime":1727.987,"body":"And then the, the, the pushback on that,"},{"startTime":1725.017,"endTime":1727.987,"body":"I already know the pushback on that."},{"startTime":1727.987,"endTime":1731.317,"body":"You don't, so you don't need, oh,"},{"startTime":1727.987,"endTime":1731.317,"body":"so you don't need to, I've already"},{"startTime":1731.377,"endTime":1732.397,"body":"lost you're at the pushback."},{"startTime":1732.397,"endTime":1735.637,"body":"The, the pushback of that one is the"},{"startTime":1732.397,"endTime":1735.637,"body":"pushback of that one is like, well, what"},{"startTime":1735.637,"endTime":1737.497,"body":"happens if somebody slacks on the team?"},{"startTime":1737.677,"endTime":1739.037,"body":"Well why don't you leave that to the team?"},{"startTime":1739.552,"endTime":1740.062,"body":"to deal."},{"startTime":1740.062,"endTime":1740.692,"body":"They'll figure it out."},{"startTime":1740.697,"endTime":1740.992,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1741.132,"endTime":1743.152,"body":"You know, why don't you leave that to"},{"startTime":1741.132,"endTime":1743.152,"body":"the team to deal with and then, and"},{"startTime":1743.152,"endTime":1748.232,"body":"then like you, you don't think that,"},{"startTime":1743.152,"endTime":1748.232,"body":"the test manager is not gonna hear"},{"startTime":1748.382,"endTime":1752.222,"body":"the gripes of the team members saying"},{"startTime":1748.382,"endTime":1752.222,"body":"like, my test person is super slow."},{"startTime":1752.372,"endTime":1755.857,"body":"You don't think that the development"},{"startTime":1752.372,"endTime":1755.857,"body":"manager who owns all owns who, huh?"},{"startTime":1756.237,"endTime":1759.267,"body":"All the developers across the whole"},{"startTime":1756.237,"endTime":1759.267,"body":"organization is not going to hear that."},{"startTime":1759.267,"endTime":1761.727,"body":"You got one developer that's"},{"startTime":1759.267,"endTime":1761.727,"body":"super slow with everything."},{"startTime":1761.727,"endTime":1766.137,"body":"You don't think they're gonna hear that"},{"startTime":1761.727,"endTime":1766.137,"body":"like, like what you are trying to solve."},{"startTime":1767.007,"endTime":1768.237,"body":"Doesn't even warrant solving."},{"startTime":1768.237,"endTime":1768.297,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1768.297,"endTime":1769.077,"body":"It doesn't even want, yeah."},{"startTime":1769.082,"endTime":1771.747,"body":"It's it's first of all, it's"},{"startTime":1769.082,"endTime":1771.747,"body":"not your problem solve, right?"},{"startTime":1772.047,"endTime":1776.277,"body":"It now is a manager in the"},{"startTime":1772.047,"endTime":1776.277,"body":"organizations problem to solve."},{"startTime":1776.277,"endTime":1781.017,"body":"It always was fir first of all, it always"},{"startTime":1776.277,"endTime":1781.017,"body":"was, this is, this is the whole reason"},{"startTime":1781.017,"endTime":1782.667,"body":"to have management in the organization."},{"startTime":1782.847,"endTime":1785.997,"body":"If we roll the clocks back to 1913,"},{"startTime":1782.847,"endTime":1785.997,"body":"and we go all the way back to the"},{"startTime":1785.997,"endTime":1788.487,"body":"core of the original management in."},{"startTime":1788.982,"endTime":1790.212,"body":"Organizational design."},{"startTime":1790.602,"endTime":1796.632,"body":"Like those manager's job was to see"},{"startTime":1790.602,"endTime":1796.632,"body":"who was and was not doing as prescribed"},{"startTime":1796.632,"endTime":1801.042,"body":"on the checklist and then to, to call"},{"startTime":1796.632,"endTime":1801.042,"body":"'em out on it and to deal with things."},{"startTime":1801.192,"endTime":1805.342,"body":"So, , why would you go and create"},{"startTime":1801.192,"endTime":1805.342,"body":"a chart that says I'm gonna go"},{"startTime":1805.342,"endTime":1809.332,"body":"pick up pig iron, and it should"},{"startTime":1805.342,"endTime":1809.332,"body":"take 56 steps to go from that pile"},{"startTime":1809.332,"endTime":1811.042,"body":"to the train cart to drop it off."},{"startTime":1811.402,"endTime":1815.482,"body":"And I've got one employee who takes"},{"startTime":1811.402,"endTime":1815.482,"body":"80 steps and takes three times"},{"startTime":1815.482,"endTime":1816.652,"body":"longer than the other employees."},{"startTime":1816.952,"endTime":1821.152,"body":"You've documented it, you know how"},{"startTime":1816.952,"endTime":1821.152,"body":"long it takes a normal employee, you"},{"startTime":1821.152,"endTime":1822.622,"body":"know that person's not cutting it."},{"startTime":1823.102,"endTime":1825.172,"body":"Why are you not stepping"},{"startTime":1823.102,"endTime":1825.172,"body":"in and doing your job?"},{"startTime":1826.102,"endTime":1828.672,"body":"Not like now we've, we've,"},{"startTime":1826.102,"endTime":1828.672,"body":"we've taken this discuss."},{"startTime":1829.147,"endTime":1830.137,"body":"Of like, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1830.977,"endTime":1834.337,"body":", we've taken the discussion back to,"},{"startTime":1830.977,"endTime":1834.337,"body":"to, to the core of where a lot of"},{"startTime":1834.337,"endTime":1837.007,"body":"our discussions go to is like, why"},{"startTime":1834.337,"endTime":1837.007,"body":"is management know this problems?"},{"startTime":1837.007,"endTime":1838.147,"body":"And they don't do anything about it."},{"startTime":1838.152,"endTime":1838.687,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":1838.777,"endTime":1839.617,"body":"No, that's the spot."},{"startTime":1839.617,"endTime":1843.717,"body":"I think we're getting way"},{"startTime":1839.617,"endTime":1843.717,"body":"away from some of the agile"},{"startTime":1843.717,"endTime":1844.857,"body":"principles we're talking about."},{"startTime":1844.857,"endTime":1845.247,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":1845.787,"endTime":1847.647,"body":"El self-organizing teams."},{"startTime":1847.647,"endTime":1847.737,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1848.017,"endTime":1853.757,"body":"And,  so the opportunity to say within a"},{"startTime":1848.017,"endTime":1853.757,"body":"team, typically we have different levels"},{"startTime":1853.757,"endTime":1859.022,"body":"of expertise, people who have different,"},{"startTime":1853.757,"endTime":1859.022,"body":"different experience levels, different"},{"startTime":1859.052,"endTime":1863.112,"body":"interests , and typically I have found."},{"startTime":1863.532,"endTime":1865.452,"body":"Left to their own devices."},{"startTime":1865.962,"endTime":1871.512,"body":"Teams actually find great"},{"startTime":1865.962,"endTime":1871.512,"body":"ways to create that balance."},{"startTime":1871.902,"endTime":1876.607,"body":"Now, if you have somebody coming in and"},{"startTime":1871.902,"endTime":1876.607,"body":"just truly being dead weight and not"},{"startTime":1876.612,"endTime":1880.357,"body":"pulling, pulling their weight, rather"},{"startTime":1876.612,"endTime":1880.357,"body":"than someone who's just trying hard"},{"startTime":1880.357,"endTime":1883.987,"body":"or maybe been assigned something that"},{"startTime":1880.357,"endTime":1883.987,"body":"they're just not good at or not aware of."},{"startTime":1883.987,"endTime":1885.427,"body":"And then you have a team."},{"startTime":1885.767,"endTime":1888.587,"body":"I mean, I've seen multiple teams where"},{"startTime":1885.767,"endTime":1888.587,"body":"we have somebody who's a more junior"},{"startTime":1888.587,"endTime":1891.857,"body":"and they will pair program with somebody"},{"startTime":1888.587,"endTime":1891.857,"body":"who's more senior and all of a sudden,"},{"startTime":1891.857,"endTime":1893.927,"body":"now we have a stronger team for it."},{"startTime":1893.932,"endTime":1894.027,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1894.417,"endTime":1899.817,"body":"this is not something that I would step in"},{"startTime":1894.417,"endTime":1899.817,"body":"and on, or ask management to step in on."},{"startTime":1900.177,"endTime":1905.667,"body":"And if we do, we have created already"},{"startTime":1900.177,"endTime":1905.667,"body":"a break in trust, micromanagement, and"},{"startTime":1905.667,"endTime":1911.467,"body":"we're going away from the principles"},{"startTime":1905.667,"endTime":1911.467,"body":"that we want to instill in these teams."},{"startTime":1911.472,"endTime":1911.497,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1911.997,"endTime":1914.637,"body":"I'll give you the opposite of"},{"startTime":1911.997,"endTime":1914.637,"body":"that from a product perspective."},{"startTime":1914.737,"endTime":1920.757,"body":"I was at an organization one time where"},{"startTime":1914.737,"endTime":1920.757,"body":"I was product manager and I was not in"},{"startTime":1920.757,"endTime":1924.157,"body":"charge of hiring in any way, shape or"},{"startTime":1920.757,"endTime":1924.157,"body":"form any of the developers on the team."},{"startTime":1924.157,"endTime":1928.597,"body":"I don't remember the organiz, the director"},{"startTime":1924.157,"endTime":1928.597,"body":"of development, some somebody on that,"},{"startTime":1928.602,"endTime":1929.827,"body":"that level, the director of development."},{"startTime":1930.217,"endTime":1933.507,"body":"So the director of development hired"},{"startTime":1930.217,"endTime":1933.507,"body":"all of the developers and I was the"},{"startTime":1933.627,"endTime":1938.377,"body":"product manager and I had two teams at"},{"startTime":1933.627,"endTime":1938.377,"body":"that organization and the director of"},{"startTime":1938.377,"endTime":1942.517,"body":"development purely used offshore talent."},{"startTime":1943.177,"endTime":1944.587,"body":"All the developers were offshore."},{"startTime":1945.087,"endTime":1948.777,"body":"And all the developers that were"},{"startTime":1945.087,"endTime":1948.777,"body":"offshore were also there, there"},{"startTime":1948.777,"endTime":1952.517,"body":"were some, there, there was a mix of"},{"startTime":1948.777,"endTime":1952.517,"body":"senior and junior devs, but the way"},{"startTime":1952.517,"endTime":1956.387,"body":"that this director of development"},{"startTime":1952.517,"endTime":1956.387,"body":"hired, he hired front end developers"},{"startTime":1956.387,"endTime":1957.707,"body":"and he hired backend developers."},{"startTime":1957.712,"endTime":1961.067,"body":"And there were, there was like"},{"startTime":1957.712,"endTime":1961.067,"body":"one or two people on the whole"},{"startTime":1961.067,"endTime":1963.857,"body":"team or, or across both teams."},{"startTime":1964.217,"endTime":1966.737,"body":"There was like, there was like"},{"startTime":1964.217,"endTime":1966.737,"body":"one or two, I can't remember that"},{"startTime":1967.157,"endTime":1969.857,"body":"were like full what you would"},{"startTime":1967.157,"endTime":1969.857,"body":"think of as full stack developers."},{"startTime":1970.187,"endTime":1973.307,"body":"So there was like one, I would probably"},{"startTime":1970.187,"endTime":1973.307,"body":"say there's one, there was one full stack"},{"startTime":1973.307,"endTime":1976.487,"body":"developer and everybody else was either"},{"startTime":1973.307,"endTime":1976.487,"body":"a front end or a backend developer."},{"startTime":1977.477,"endTime":1983.802,"body":"And, as the product person, I basically"},{"startTime":1977.477,"endTime":1983.802,"body":"had to plan not only, well, we went"},{"startTime":1983.802,"endTime":1986.652,"body":"through a team split where there, it"},{"startTime":1983.802,"endTime":1986.652,"body":"was one giant team that went into two"},{"startTime":1986.802,"endTime":1990.702,"body":"separate teams, but I had to go through"},{"startTime":1986.802,"endTime":1990.702,"body":"and I had to say, well, when I'm going"},{"startTime":1990.702,"endTime":1994.732,"body":"through a team split, I have to make"},{"startTime":1990.702,"endTime":1994.732,"body":"sure that I have either a balance of"},{"startTime":1994.732,"endTime":1997.582,"body":"front end back end, cause you can't have"},{"startTime":1994.732,"endTime":1997.582,"body":"with just one team, be a front end all"},{"startTime":1997.582,"endTime":1998.932,"body":"the front end developers on one team."},{"startTime":1999.232,"endTime":2003.192,"body":"So I was like, each team has to be able"},{"startTime":1999.232,"endTime":2003.192,"body":"to be handed a business problem and"},{"startTime":2003.192,"endTime":2006.342,"body":"to be able to solve the full business"},{"startTime":2003.192,"endTime":2006.342,"body":"problem both front end and back end."},{"startTime":2006.792,"endTime":2007.122,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2007.582,"endTime":2011.507,"body":"I, of course would've preferred both"},{"startTime":2007.582,"endTime":2011.507,"body":"of my teams to be just completely"},{"startTime":2011.507,"endTime":2014.687,"body":"staffed with full stack developers"},{"startTime":2011.507,"endTime":2014.687,"body":"so that I can hand them a problem."},{"startTime":2014.687,"endTime":2015.947,"body":"And it doesn't matter who works on it."},{"startTime":2015.947,"endTime":2020.997,"body":"But that, that was an example"},{"startTime":2015.947,"endTime":2020.997,"body":"where I had to deal with sort of a"},{"startTime":2020.997,"endTime":2024.747,"body":"constraint because when I was bringing"},{"startTime":2020.997,"endTime":2024.747,"body":"work in, I had to make sure that"},{"startTime":2024.747,"endTime":2027.047,"body":"there was the back end front end."},{"startTime":2027.047,"endTime":2030.647,"body":"We're talking to each other when we were"},{"startTime":2027.047,"endTime":2030.647,"body":"going through playing, like I, I might"},{"startTime":2030.647,"endTime":2034.557,"body":"have written a story and then let the"},{"startTime":2030.647,"endTime":2034.557,"body":"developers split it out between back end"},{"startTime":2034.587,"endTime":2035.637,"body":"and front end between the two of them."},{"startTime":2035.937,"endTime":2039.557,"body":"But I think I was telling the story"},{"startTime":2035.937,"endTime":2039.557,"body":"because,  you don't always have control"},{"startTime":2039.647,"endTime":2045.617,"body":"as the product owner about these things,"},{"startTime":2039.647,"endTime":2045.617,"body":"but, but every time that we had a session"},{"startTime":2045.717,"endTime":2049.967,"body":"with the executives, like a, like a"},{"startTime":2045.717,"endTime":2049.967,"body":"higher level product session, like"},{"startTime":2049.967,"endTime":2052.457,"body":"a product management type of session"},{"startTime":2049.967,"endTime":2052.457,"body":"of like, this is what we're doing and"},{"startTime":2052.457,"endTime":2058.317,"body":"whatnot like I would highlight because"},{"startTime":2052.457,"endTime":2058.317,"body":"you've chosen to spend less money by"},{"startTime":2058.317,"endTime":2061.707,"body":"hiring more junior developers that have"},{"startTime":2058.317,"endTime":2061.707,"body":"to do this front and back end stuff."},{"startTime":2061.797,"endTime":2064.167,"body":"That's why we have to"},{"startTime":2061.797,"endTime":2064.167,"body":"proceed in this fashion."},{"startTime":2064.897,"endTime":2068.252,"body":"Where I'm BA I'm basically moving half as"},{"startTime":2064.897,"endTime":2068.252,"body":"fast because I have from the perspective"},{"startTime":2068.252,"endTime":2071.222,"body":"of like, yes, we're spending half the"},{"startTime":2068.252,"endTime":2071.222,"body":"cost on developers, but we're basically"},{"startTime":2071.222,"endTime":2074.492,"body":"moving half as fast because we only have"},{"startTime":2071.222,"endTime":2074.492,"body":"one developer can do a back end task."},{"startTime":2074.552,"endTime":2076.952,"body":"And then that task has to sit"},{"startTime":2074.552,"endTime":2076.952,"body":"while the front end developer"},{"startTime":2077.012,"endTime":2078.902,"body":"codes it, and then it can't go out."},{"startTime":2079.002,"endTime":2082.272,"body":"We are doing agile development inside"},{"startTime":2079.002,"endTime":2082.272,"body":"the sprint, but it's sort of like,"},{"startTime":2082.772,"endTime":2084.422,"body":"it's a less com component based teams."},{"startTime":2084.572,"endTime":2084.862,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2085.352,"endTime":2085.862,"body":"It's tough."},{"startTime":2086.807,"endTime":2090.437,"body":"so I actually had a fantastic experience."},{"startTime":2090.437,"endTime":2095.317,"body":"I don't know if this would've worked"},{"startTime":2090.437,"endTime":2095.317,"body":"where you were at, but, that used"},{"startTime":2095.477,"endTime":2099.697,"body":"in a similar case now this was, it"},{"startTime":2095.477,"endTime":2099.697,"body":"would be different a bit different."},{"startTime":2099.702,"endTime":2100.927,"body":"So this was Greenfield."},{"startTime":2100.927,"endTime":2105.587,"body":"We were, we ended up, we had"},{"startTime":2100.927,"endTime":2105.587,"body":"five teams product owners."},{"startTime":2105.592,"endTime":2109.107,"body":"Mm-hmm  we had created the,"},{"startTime":2105.592,"endTime":2109.107,"body":"the roadmap and, and, yeah, the"},{"startTime":2109.107,"endTime":2113.217,"body":"beginnings of the roadmap and had"},{"startTime":2109.107,"endTime":2113.217,"body":"decided which big portions of that"},{"startTime":2113.222,"endTime":2116.087,"body":"we were going to be responsible for."},{"startTime":2116.092,"endTime":2119.897,"body":"We literally had an MVP deployable,"},{"startTime":2116.092,"endTime":2119.897,"body":"something that we were going"},{"startTime":2119.897,"endTime":2121.277,"body":"to deploy within three months."},{"startTime":2121.277,"endTime":2126.487,"body":"An actual product, and then building"},{"startTime":2121.277,"endTime":2126.487,"body":"on that over the, the following year."},{"startTime":2126.967,"endTime":2131.197,"body":"and we had, we decided to have"},{"startTime":2126.967,"endTime":2131.197,"body":"self-selecting teams in the"},{"startTime":2131.202,"endTime":2132.787,"body":"manner in which we did this."},{"startTime":2133.177,"endTime":2138.502,"body":"So each of us as product"},{"startTime":2133.177,"endTime":2138.502,"body":"owners came together."},{"startTime":2138.532,"endTime":2143.662,"body":"We knew generally what we needed"},{"startTime":2138.532,"endTime":2143.662,"body":"to solve in the next 3, 6, 9, and"},{"startTime":2143.662,"endTime":2146.312,"body":"12 months in, or in what order."},{"startTime":2146.402,"endTime":2146.822,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2147.272,"endTime":2153.112,"body":"And we came up with a rough way to do"},{"startTime":2147.272,"endTime":2153.112,"body":"that, a rough roadmap we decided and,"},{"startTime":2153.117,"endTime":2158.282,"body":"and kind of figured out, okay what's"},{"startTime":2153.117,"endTime":2158.282,"body":"the level of work, what's our expertise,"},{"startTime":2158.522,"endTime":2160.472,"body":"what are we interested in doing?"},{"startTime":2160.742,"endTime":2165.002,"body":"And then we came up with a general"},{"startTime":2160.742,"endTime":2165.002,"body":"idea of kind of buckets of things"},{"startTime":2165.002,"endTime":2166.772,"body":"that we wanted to be responsible for."},{"startTime":2167.342,"endTime":2174.392,"body":"Then we held a a half day session"},{"startTime":2167.342,"endTime":2174.392,"body":"where we bought all of our development"},{"startTime":2174.392,"endTime":2175.562,"body":"teams that were already on."},{"startTime":2176.062,"endTime":2181.072,"body":"And in an effort to kind of use change"},{"startTime":2176.062,"endTime":2181.072,"body":"management and change to get them in the"},{"startTime":2181.072,"endTime":2185.182,"body":"mindset of change management, we decided"},{"startTime":2181.072,"endTime":2185.182,"body":"to change from teams to squads, right."},{"startTime":2185.182,"endTime":2189.712,"body":"So using the Spotify terminology, but it"},{"startTime":2185.182,"endTime":2189.712,"body":"helped us get into that change mindset."},{"startTime":2190.162,"endTime":2190.402,"body":"Sorry."},{"startTime":2190.402,"endTime":2192.162,"body":"He says Spotify let's continue."},{"startTime":2192.412,"endTime":2193.702,"body":"So it's not a model."},{"startTime":2193.702,"endTime":2193.912,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2193.912,"endTime":2194.752,"body":"But we used terms."},{"startTime":2194.752,"endTime":2195.052,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2195.052,"endTime":2198.742,"body":"So the, the point there though"},{"startTime":2195.052,"endTime":2198.742,"body":"was to actually use a different"},{"startTime":2198.742,"endTime":2202.402,"body":"term, which got us into the, the"},{"startTime":2198.742,"endTime":2202.402,"body":"mind, the, the change mindset."},{"startTime":2202.402,"endTime":2202.642,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2202.642,"endTime":2203.512,"body":"Mm-hmm  so, all right."},{"startTime":2203.512,"endTime":2205.132,"body":"So we went from teams to squads."},{"startTime":2205.652,"endTime":2208.172,"body":"each product owner went up and presented."},{"startTime":2208.177,"endTime":2210.122,"body":"Here's my mission."},{"startTime":2210.152,"endTime":2212.942,"body":"This is what I am"},{"startTime":2210.152,"endTime":2212.942,"body":"attempting to accomplish."},{"startTime":2213.302,"endTime":2217.972,"body":"Here's generally the timeline that I'm"},{"startTime":2213.302,"endTime":2217.972,"body":"going to accomplishment and, and, and"},{"startTime":2217.977,"endTime":2219.572,"body":"you know what I want to accomplish."},{"startTime":2219.572,"endTime":2219.662,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2219.932,"endTime":2224.312,"body":"Then each of us went to a table and we"},{"startTime":2219.932,"endTime":2224.312,"body":"did have leadership there and they laid"},{"startTime":2224.317,"endTime":2228.262,"body":"some ground rules and they're like, all"},{"startTime":2224.317,"endTime":2228.262,"body":"right, developers now what we need to"},{"startTime":2228.262,"endTime":2230.002,"body":"accomplish and who's responsible for what."},{"startTime":2230.977,"endTime":2234.877,"body":"we're gonna give you half an"},{"startTime":2230.977,"endTime":2234.877,"body":"hour, 45 minutes, whatever you're"},{"startTime":2234.877,"endTime":2240.337,"body":"gonna go around, talk, meet,"},{"startTime":2234.877,"endTime":2240.337,"body":"decide where do you wanna work?"},{"startTime":2240.337,"endTime":2241.627,"body":"What do you wanna work on?"},{"startTime":2241.627,"endTime":2243.067,"body":"Whom do you wanna work with?"},{"startTime":2243.127,"endTime":2248.287,"body":"Mm-hmm  it's up to you to make sure"},{"startTime":2243.127,"endTime":2248.287,"body":"the teams are full stack are balanced"},{"startTime":2248.287,"endTime":2251.257,"body":"in regards to their their experience."},{"startTime":2251.257,"endTime":2254.407,"body":"So they gave some ground rules and they"},{"startTime":2251.257,"endTime":2254.407,"body":"said, if you can't do it on your own, then"},{"startTime":2254.407,"endTime":2258.157,"body":"management will step in and leadership"},{"startTime":2254.407,"endTime":2258.157,"body":"will step in and need to reorganize."},{"startTime":2258.577,"endTime":2262.087,"body":"I will tell you, at the end"},{"startTime":2258.577,"endTime":2262.087,"body":"of that half day, we didn't"},{"startTime":2262.092,"endTime":2263.527,"body":"have to reorganize anything."},{"startTime":2263.677,"endTime":2269.677,"body":"As a matter of fact, we had someone who"},{"startTime":2263.677,"endTime":2269.677,"body":"was senior and looked over and saw a"},{"startTime":2269.677,"endTime":2275.917,"body":"team that was just mostly junior devs and"},{"startTime":2269.677,"endTime":2275.917,"body":"said, ah, man, they're gonna struggle."},{"startTime":2276.487,"endTime":2280.277,"body":"And he's like, you know what, let"},{"startTime":2276.487,"endTime":2280.277,"body":"me switch took that on himself."},{"startTime":2280.327,"endTime":2282.067,"body":"It was an amazing experience."},{"startTime":2282.067,"endTime":2283.537,"body":"And here's what we, what happened."},{"startTime":2283.537,"endTime":2285.697,"body":"There was, they had ownership."},{"startTime":2286.197,"endTime":2288.927,"body":"like all of a sudden they,"},{"startTime":2286.197,"endTime":2288.927,"body":"they had ownership, right."},{"startTime":2288.927,"endTime":2296.077,"body":"They were able to immediately be"},{"startTime":2288.927,"endTime":2296.077,"body":"involved, engaged, trust was established."},{"startTime":2296.257,"endTime":2301.352,"body":"Like it was amazing all of these, these"},{"startTime":2296.257,"endTime":2301.352,"body":"intangible things that ended up happening."},{"startTime":2302.022,"endTime":2306.792,"body":"That's obviously not possible in all"},{"startTime":2302.022,"endTime":2306.792,"body":"scenarios, but gosh, if you can do it, I,"},{"startTime":2306.792,"endTime":2312.162,"body":"I just can't even describe the experience"},{"startTime":2306.792,"endTime":2312.162,"body":"and how absolutely fantastic it was."},{"startTime":2312.662,"endTime":2316.352,"body":"That's great to hear because in, in"},{"startTime":2312.662,"endTime":2316.352,"body":"most organizations, especially large"},{"startTime":2316.352,"endTime":2317.672,"body":"ones, you don't have that luxury."},{"startTime":2317.672,"endTime":2320.672,"body":"You get handed mm-hmm,  a list of crew."},{"startTime":2320.912,"endTime":2321.662,"body":"This is your team."},{"startTime":2321.662,"endTime":2324.842,"body":"Now I was gonna say like, my"},{"startTime":2321.662,"endTime":2324.842,"body":"experience has been the opposite."},{"startTime":2324.842,"endTime":2329.457,"body":"Like the more, the more senior developers"},{"startTime":2324.842,"endTime":2329.457,"body":"that are in charge of things like that, or"},{"startTime":2329.457,"endTime":2331.317,"body":"that have influence into things like that."},{"startTime":2331.397,"endTime":2334.787,"body":"they'll want to hand down things from."},{"startTime":2335.177,"endTime":2335.867,"body":"Team to team."},{"startTime":2335.957,"endTime":2339.197,"body":"Like they they'll want to take"},{"startTime":2335.957,"endTime":2339.197,"body":"away the empowerment of teams."},{"startTime":2339.707,"endTime":2341.477,"body":"Like it's funny cuz they"},{"startTime":2339.707,"endTime":2341.477,"body":"do it to themselves."},{"startTime":2341.657,"endTime":2341.717,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2342.137,"endTime":2344.822,"body":"And then they'll turn around"},{"startTime":2342.137,"endTime":2344.822,"body":"and complain about about it."},{"startTime":2344.827,"endTime":2348.912,"body":"POS doing whatever or setting"},{"startTime":2344.827,"endTime":2348.912,"body":"unreasonable deadlines when, when"},{"startTime":2348.917,"endTime":2352.332,"body":"they are the ones committing to the"},{"startTime":2348.917,"endTime":2352.332,"body":"unreasonable deadlines in the first place."},{"startTime":2352.662,"endTime":2355.862,"body":"The experience that you went"},{"startTime":2352.662,"endTime":2355.862,"body":"through, I could, I could, I"},{"startTime":2355.867,"endTime":2357.602,"body":"could tell, I was gonna say smell."},{"startTime":2357.782,"endTime":2362.062,"body":"I could tell that this, this trainer's"},{"startTime":2357.782,"endTime":2362.062,"body":"background was more technical bent."},{"startTime":2362.482,"endTime":2362.812,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":2362.812,"endTime":2365.932,"body":"And he definitely wasn't a PO"},{"startTime":2362.812,"endTime":2365.932,"body":"like maybe he was a developer."},{"startTime":2365.932,"endTime":2366.412,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":2366.612,"endTime":2367.642,"body":"But he was, yeah."},{"startTime":2367.792,"endTime":2373.942,"body":"But I, I could tell because I would"},{"startTime":2367.792,"endTime":2373.942,"body":"expect a, a class led by a product"},{"startTime":2373.942,"endTime":2376.942,"body":"person to have a completely different."},{"startTime":2377.392,"endTime":2381.772,"body":"Tone than a class led by a developer"},{"startTime":2377.392,"endTime":2381.772,"body":"or, or a scrum master for that matter,"},{"startTime":2381.772,"endTime":2385.307,"body":"actually mm-hmm  cause if you think about"},{"startTime":2381.772,"endTime":2385.307,"body":"the entry level CSM and the entry level,"},{"startTime":2385.307,"endTime":2388.157,"body":"CSPO again, I went through both of them."},{"startTime":2388.397,"endTime":2393.437,"body":"I, my experience probably 75%, I don't, I"},{"startTime":2388.397,"endTime":2393.437,"body":"don't know how much the actual curriculum,"},{"startTime":2393.437,"endTime":2395.617,"body":"but I, I, and it was a while ago too."},{"startTime":2395.617,"endTime":2400.087,"body":"So I recall about 75% of the"},{"startTime":2395.617,"endTime":2400.087,"body":"content between the CSM and"},{"startTime":2400.087,"endTime":2401.767,"body":"the CSPO is basically shared."},{"startTime":2402.067,"endTime":2406.327,"body":"So you take one, you're not really"},{"startTime":2402.067,"endTime":2406.327,"body":"you're getting a lot of duplication of"},{"startTime":2406.327,"endTime":2407.802,"body":"learning once you go to the other one."},{"startTime":2408.312,"endTime":2413.972,"body":"but , I would say that there, if"},{"startTime":2408.312,"endTime":2413.972,"body":"the PO classes were actually led by"},{"startTime":2414.152,"endTime":2419.212,"body":"people who did the PO job assuming"},{"startTime":2414.152,"endTime":2419.212,"body":"that they had assuming that they"},{"startTime":2419.212,"endTime":2420.562,"body":"had some kind of say over the."},{"startTime":2420.892,"endTime":2424.792,"body":"You know that the curriculum is not"},{"startTime":2420.892,"endTime":2424.792,"body":"mandated in some you mm-hmm,  certain"},{"startTime":2424.792,"endTime":2426.922,"body":"amount of curriculum is probably"},{"startTime":2424.792,"endTime":2426.922,"body":"mandated in some way, shape or"},{"startTime":2426.922,"endTime":2430.762,"body":"form, but assuming they could blow"},{"startTime":2426.922,"endTime":2430.762,"body":"through that quickly and get onto the"},{"startTime":2430.762,"endTime":2432.412,"body":"part that you actually care about."},{"startTime":2432.912,"endTime":2434.712,"body":"I would say you probably"},{"startTime":2432.912,"endTime":2434.712,"body":"would've a different experience."},{"startTime":2435.522,"endTime":2436.032,"body":"Agreed."},{"startTime":2436.182,"endTime":2437.022,"body":"I have no doubt."},{"startTime":2437.042,"endTime":2437.332,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2437.362,"endTime":2437.652,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2438.052,"endTime":2440.892,"body":"I, I, I really almost, I feel like"},{"startTime":2438.052,"endTime":2440.892,"body":"that should be a prerequisite."},{"startTime":2440.892,"endTime":2445.382,"body":"I mean, how many how many classes do"},{"startTime":2440.892,"endTime":2445.382,"body":"you go to where you have instructors"},{"startTime":2445.382,"endTime":2451.772,"body":"that don't have experience in the"},{"startTime":2445.382,"endTime":2451.772,"body":"subject that they are teaching?"},{"startTime":2451.922,"endTime":2454.832,"body":"Unless you're a coach teaching"},{"startTime":2451.922,"endTime":2454.832,"body":"science in a high school kind"},{"startTime":2454.832,"endTime":2455.882,"body":"of thing, but you know, I mean,"},{"startTime":2456.382,"endTime":2457.642,"body":"coach Khan shout out to you."},{"startTime":2457.642,"endTime":2457.702,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2458.062,"endTime":2458.302,"body":"Sorry."},{"startTime":2458.802,"endTime":2461.682,"body":"but yeah, I think that"},{"startTime":2458.802,"endTime":2461.682,"body":"would make the difference."},{"startTime":2461.772,"endTime":2466.562,"body":"And then to your point, as far as the"},{"startTime":2461.772,"endTime":2466.562,"body":"overlap and I think there's some, so"},{"startTime":2467.012,"endTime":2471.382,"body":"number one, I think that one of the"},{"startTime":2467.012,"endTime":2471.382,"body":"ways that that could really benefit to"},{"startTime":2471.382,"endTime":2478.042,"body":"your point is to require some actual"},{"startTime":2471.382,"endTime":2478.042,"body":"working knowledge, some industry"},{"startTime":2478.042,"endTime":2481.122,"body":"working knowledge, working in that role."},{"startTime":2481.432,"endTime":2486.672,"body":"number one, and number two, since you"},{"startTime":2481.432,"endTime":2486.672,"body":"mentioned, there is so much overlap."},{"startTime":2486.677,"endTime":2489.822,"body":"And what I can tell you is from"},{"startTime":2486.677,"endTime":2489.822,"body":"my experience just eight hours"},{"startTime":2489.822,"endTime":2493.662,"body":"yesterday, almost all of it"},{"startTime":2489.822,"endTime":2493.662,"body":"was spent on the scrum guide."},{"startTime":2493.667,"endTime":2497.802,"body":"Mm-hmm , which I think probably had"},{"startTime":2493.667,"endTime":2497.802,"body":"a lot to do with the fact that this"},{"startTime":2497.807,"endTime":2502.782,"body":"was a developer who was also a scrum"},{"startTime":2497.807,"endTime":2502.782,"body":"master and knew the scrum guide and"},{"startTime":2502.787,"endTime":2504.312,"body":"exactly where to point to this and that."},{"startTime":2504.312,"endTime":2506.712,"body":"So that was kind of,"},{"startTime":2504.312,"endTime":2506.712,"body":"that was his safe space."},{"startTime":2506.712,"endTime":2507.702,"body":"That's what he knew."},{"startTime":2507.707,"endTime":2508.592,"body":"Mm-hmm but."},{"startTime":2509.092,"endTime":2513.657,"body":"for instance, the CSM, which is"},{"startTime":2509.092,"endTime":2513.657,"body":"the certified scrum master, which"},{"startTime":2513.657,"endTime":2516.267,"body":"is all about the scrum guide."},{"startTime":2516.377,"endTime":2516.667,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2516.867,"endTime":2518.787,"body":"A hundred percent front to back."},{"startTime":2519.117,"endTime":2525.437,"body":"If that were prerequisite, now we create"},{"startTime":2519.117,"endTime":2525.437,"body":"that baseline knowledge as a prerequisite"},{"startTime":2525.437,"endTime":2530.837,"body":"and cannot have all of that duplication"},{"startTime":2525.437,"endTime":2530.837,"body":"and actually start diving into the"},{"startTime":2530.837,"endTime":2534.437,"body":"meat and potatoes of product ownership."},{"startTime":2534.707,"endTime":2534.917,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2535.757,"endTime":2535.997,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2535.997,"endTime":2539.117,"body":"I, that's an interesting,"},{"startTime":2535.997,"endTime":2539.117,"body":"interesting proposition that a"},{"startTime":2539.377,"endTime":2542.487,"body":"CSA would prerequisite for CSPO."},{"startTime":2542.787,"endTime":2543.837,"body":"I certainly agree."},{"startTime":2543.837,"endTime":2548.337,"body":"You need a baseline level of knowledge to"},{"startTime":2543.837,"endTime":2548.337,"body":"build upon when we go into a class, cuz"},{"startTime":2548.517,"endTime":2550.377,"body":"not everybody's on the same page, right?"},{"startTime":2550.382,"endTime":2553.137,"body":"When, when you had 18 people, 19"},{"startTime":2550.382,"endTime":2553.137,"body":"people in your class, mm-hmm,  not"},{"startTime":2553.137,"endTime":2556.857,"body":"everybody is at the same place, so"},{"startTime":2553.137,"endTime":2556.857,"body":"they have to cover a certain amount."},{"startTime":2556.887,"endTime":2557.757,"body":"I understand that."},{"startTime":2558.237,"endTime":2562.767,"body":", if you had to mandate a CSM, some PO some."},{"startTime":2563.267,"endTime":2566.157,"body":"Wanna be POS , may say,"},{"startTime":2563.267,"endTime":2566.157,"body":"why do I have to do that?"},{"startTime":2566.157,"endTime":2570.537,"body":"I just want pursue a PO"},{"startTime":2566.157,"endTime":2570.537,"body":"role, not scrum master."},{"startTime":2570.717,"endTime":2573.807,"body":"So why do I have to do a"},{"startTime":2570.717,"endTime":2573.807,"body":"CSM class first, right."},{"startTime":2573.807,"endTime":2574.767,"body":"That I have to pay for."},{"startTime":2575.007,"endTime":2578.667,"body":"So perhaps a way out kind"},{"startTime":2575.007,"endTime":2578.667,"body":"of like a compromise might"},{"startTime":2578.667,"endTime":2580.377,"body":"be that, and this is true."},{"startTime":2580.617,"endTime":2585.837,"body":"What I'm about to say, I would say"},{"startTime":2580.617,"endTime":2585.837,"body":"is true of not only a CS P class,"},{"startTime":2585.927,"endTime":2590.877,"body":"but also a CSD or a CSM, even right."},{"startTime":2590.897,"endTime":2596.637,"body":"Mm-hmm  is to have a prerequisite of the"},{"startTime":2590.897,"endTime":2596.637,"body":"agile fundamentals class, which is where"},{"startTime":2596.637,"endTime":2602.697,"body":"they cover all of basics, fundamentals of"},{"startTime":2596.637,"endTime":2602.697,"body":"agile to bring everybody at that level."},{"startTime":2602.697,"endTime":2605.537,"body":"And then when you go in, if"},{"startTime":2602.697,"endTime":2605.537,"body":"you're a developer taking a CSD"},{"startTime":2605.542,"endTime":2607.557,"body":"class, you can focus on that."},{"startTime":2607.887,"endTime":2611.457,"body":"If you're a CSBO you focus on"},{"startTime":2607.887,"endTime":2611.457,"body":"that CSM, you focus on that."},{"startTime":2611.697,"endTime":2612.657,"body":"That might be a way out."},{"startTime":2612.987,"endTime":2615.987,"body":"the other way, if you're"},{"startTime":2612.987,"endTime":2615.987,"body":"mandating a CSM is."},{"startTime":2616.707,"endTime":2618.207,"body":"Yeah, the scrum lines will be happy."},{"startTime":2618.207,"endTime":2618.657,"body":"I'm sure."},{"startTime":2618.657,"endTime":2619.737,"body":"Cuz they're getting more money."},{"startTime":2619.797,"endTime":2620.007,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2620.037,"endTime":2623.217,"body":"But a lot of the attendees may"},{"startTime":2620.037,"endTime":2623.217,"body":"not be, cuz they're having to"},{"startTime":2623.547,"endTime":2625.407,"body":"spend money on two certifications."},{"startTime":2625.527,"endTime":2629.067,"body":"Mm-hmm  when all they wanted was the"},{"startTime":2625.527,"endTime":2629.067,"body":"CSPO it's just something to think about."},{"startTime":2629.667,"endTime":2630.237,"body":"I don't know, man."},{"startTime":2630.237,"endTime":2634.317,"body":"I'm thinking about the, thinking about"},{"startTime":2630.237,"endTime":2634.317,"body":"what the arguing point to this would."},{"startTime":2635.082,"endTime":2636.612,"body":"And I'm not coming up with anything great."},{"startTime":2636.672,"endTime":2640.962,"body":"Like I, the, the, the, the thing that"},{"startTime":2636.672,"endTime":2640.962,"body":"I'm coming up with that's great is just"},{"startTime":2640.962,"endTime":2645.042,"body":"delete the middle tier certifications,"},{"startTime":2640.962,"endTime":2645.042,"body":"like delete them, or don't, don't"},{"startTime":2645.042,"endTime":2647.922,"body":"actually, don't delete them, delete"},{"startTime":2645.042,"endTime":2647.922,"body":"the first tier certifications."},{"startTime":2647.922,"endTime":2648.642,"body":"That's what I'm thinking of."},{"startTime":2648.642,"endTime":2648.702,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2648.702,"endTime":2649.992,"body":"And replace them with the CSM."},{"startTime":2650.102,"endTime":2650.392,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2650.592,"endTime":2650.892,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2650.892,"endTime":2654.372,"body":"And so everyone, like what will be"},{"startTime":2650.892,"endTime":2654.372,"body":"the, the arguing point is like, well,"},{"startTime":2654.372,"endTime":2658.762,"body":"what would be the advantage of having"},{"startTime":2654.372,"endTime":2658.762,"body":"your POS have to go through CSM first?"},{"startTime":2658.762,"endTime":2661.402,"body":"Like they wouldn't want to do that"},{"startTime":2658.762,"endTime":2661.402,"body":"cuz they don't care about CSM."},{"startTime":2661.582,"endTime":2662.842,"body":"I'm like, eh, yeah."},{"startTime":2662.962,"endTime":2667.792,"body":"I mean, I, I understand kind of"},{"startTime":2662.962,"endTime":2667.792,"body":"what you're saying, but this CSPO"},{"startTime":2667.792,"endTime":2670.192,"body":"is a retread of the CSM anyway."},{"startTime":2670.342,"endTime":2672.982,"body":"Mm-hmm  so you might as well"},{"startTime":2670.342,"endTime":2672.982,"body":"learn the rules of the game"},{"startTime":2672.982,"endTime":2675.172,"body":"that you're operating in first."},{"startTime":2675.832,"endTime":2680.472,"body":"And uh, like you're basically saying like"},{"startTime":2675.832,"endTime":2680.472,"body":"everybody should know the rules of the."},{"startTime":2681.207,"endTime":2683.577,"body":"The developers, scrum master"},{"startTime":2681.207,"endTime":2683.577,"body":"team member, do whatever."},{"startTime":2683.577,"endTime":2684.087,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2684.087,"endTime":2685.437,"body":"The PO doesn't matter."},{"startTime":2685.677,"endTime":2686.667,"body":"You should know the rules again."},{"startTime":2686.667,"endTime":2687.717,"body":"You should know their events."},{"startTime":2687.777,"endTime":2689.067,"body":"Here's what happens at the events."},{"startTime":2689.067,"endTime":2690.687,"body":"Here's how to facilitate the events."},{"startTime":2690.837,"endTime":2693.537,"body":"Here's what is expected during each one."},{"startTime":2693.537,"endTime":2694.732,"body":"Here's what you look for."},{"startTime":2695.002,"endTime":2697.122,"body":"I know what the basic one does anymore."},{"startTime":2697.122,"endTime":2699.492,"body":"Like here, here's the basic"},{"startTime":2697.122,"endTime":2699.492,"body":"things leadership should be"},{"startTime":2699.492,"endTime":2700.492,"body":"looking for I, I don't know."},{"startTime":2700.492,"endTime":2701.152,"body":"Yeah, it's all of that."},{"startTime":2701.152,"endTime":2704.602,"body":"That's what it's in the edge of"},{"startTime":2701.152,"endTime":2704.602,"body":"fundamental for super basic type of stuff."},{"startTime":2704.932,"endTime":2712.072,"body":"but then the step up from that for a"},{"startTime":2704.932,"endTime":2712.072,"body":"scrum master are these advance what"},{"startTime":2712.072,"endTime":2714.232,"body":"you get in the advanced CSM class."},{"startTime":2714.322,"endTime":2718.192,"body":"So the step up from that for"},{"startTime":2714.322,"endTime":2718.192,"body":"scrum master is here are some"},{"startTime":2718.222,"endTime":2720.652,"body":"advanced facilitation tactics."},{"startTime":2720.682,"endTime":2723.532,"body":"Mm-hmm , here are some ways"},{"startTime":2720.682,"endTime":2723.532,"body":"to engage your leadership."},{"startTime":2723.682,"endTime":2724.822,"body":"Here are some ways."},{"startTime":2725.662,"endTime":2728.722,"body":"Climb in the organization without"},{"startTime":2725.662,"endTime":2728.722,"body":"getting blocked or here are some"},{"startTime":2728.722,"endTime":2732.592,"body":"basic coaching skills mm-hmm to try"},{"startTime":2728.722,"endTime":2732.592,"body":"to, to, to advance relationships."},{"startTime":2732.592,"endTime":2733.192,"body":"And do you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2733.192,"endTime":2737.272,"body":"That, that kinda stuff, whereas"},{"startTime":2733.192,"endTime":2737.272,"body":"the PO side of that beyond the"},{"startTime":2737.512,"endTime":2740.422,"body":"how to facilitate ceremonies,"},{"startTime":2737.512,"endTime":2740.422,"body":"whatever you wanna call 'em right."},{"startTime":2740.452,"endTime":2741.082,"body":"Then ceremonies."},{"startTime":2741.682,"endTime":2744.802,"body":"What, what the basic framework"},{"startTime":2741.682,"endTime":2744.802,"body":"is the next step up for a PO from"},{"startTime":2744.802,"endTime":2747.672,"body":"that is how do you manage backlog?"},{"startTime":2747.672,"endTime":2749.532,"body":"How, how do you better split stories?"},{"startTime":2749.742,"endTime":2752.052,"body":"How do you how do you take some of these?"},{"startTime":2752.202,"endTime":2754.522,"body":"Some things we talk about spike"},{"startTime":2752.202,"endTime":2754.522,"body":"stories and stuff like that,"},{"startTime":2754.522,"endTime":2755.482,"body":"that aren't really well defined."},{"startTime":2755.482,"endTime":2760.432,"body":"Like how do you take things when your team"},{"startTime":2755.482,"endTime":2760.432,"body":"is not punching out the exact same widgets"},{"startTime":2760.432,"endTime":2764.572,"body":"every time where everything can fall into"},{"startTime":2760.432,"endTime":2764.572,"body":"the same complexity box at the same time."},{"startTime":2765.037,"endTime":2769.027,"body":"How do we deal with situations where we"},{"startTime":2765.037,"endTime":2769.027,"body":"have to deal with ambiguity in the situa"},{"startTime":2769.027,"endTime":2771.067,"body":"like that, that kind of advanced stuff."},{"startTime":2771.217,"endTime":2771.547,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2771.547,"endTime":2774.977,"body":"That's what I think of for, for and then"},{"startTime":2771.547,"endTime":2774.977,"body":"I don't know what you get with the the"},{"startTime":2775.127,"endTime":2778.877,"body":"professional level cert, because I, I"},{"startTime":2775.127,"endTime":2778.877,"body":"don't have the professional level cert."},{"startTime":2779.717,"endTime":2784.127,"body":"I mean, look, I think if you just reduce"},{"startTime":2779.717,"endTime":2784.127,"body":"the middle layer, as you suggest, mm-hmm,"},{"startTime":2784.487,"endTime":2787.997,"body":"one of the things they have to do in my"},{"startTime":2784.487,"endTime":2787.997,"body":"opinion is to then mandate a certain level"},{"startTime":2787.997,"endTime":2790.367,"body":"of experience before you can get to that."},{"startTime":2790.527,"endTime":2790.817,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2790.967,"endTime":2793.817,"body":"cuz you don't want people that"},{"startTime":2790.967,"endTime":2793.817,"body":"take a class and then next weekend"},{"startTime":2793.817,"endTime":2794.957,"body":"they take the next one, right?"},{"startTime":2795.197,"endTime":2796.007,"body":"The advanced one."},{"startTime":2796.157,"endTime":2799.547,"body":"That's not gonna serve them any"},{"startTime":2796.157,"endTime":2799.547,"body":"good mm-hmm  or the industry."},{"startTime":2799.597,"endTime":2805.477,"body":"so yeah, that could work potentially, but"},{"startTime":2799.597,"endTime":2805.477,"body":"go back to the providers of these papers."},{"startTime":2806.317,"endTime":2806.647,"body":"right."},{"startTime":2806.647,"endTime":2809.467,"body":"It's it's less money the minute"},{"startTime":2806.647,"endTime":2809.467,"body":"you eliminate one of them."},{"startTime":2809.677,"endTime":2810.187,"body":"Yeah, I get that."},{"startTime":2810.187,"endTime":2812.707,"body":"Um, so that that's probably"},{"startTime":2810.187,"endTime":2812.707,"body":"not gonna happen either."},{"startTime":2812.827,"endTime":2816.007,"body":"I, I get that, but this is like"},{"startTime":2812.827,"endTime":2816.007,"body":"this, this is, this is my pie in the"},{"startTime":2816.007,"endTime":2817.887,"body":"sky version of  it would be nice."},{"startTime":2818.277,"endTime":2822.477,"body":"If like scrum lines for, I just"},{"startTime":2818.277,"endTime":2822.477,"body":"picking one outta the ear like on"},{"startTime":2822.477,"endTime":2826.047,"body":"their website, , they will tell you"},{"startTime":2822.477,"endTime":2826.047,"body":"this person has X amount of experience"},{"startTime":2826.047,"endTime":2827.427,"body":"in in the product owner role."},{"startTime":2827.547,"endTime":2830.637,"body":"The problem with that is like you,"},{"startTime":2827.547,"endTime":2830.637,"body":"you would have to dig deeper to, to"},{"startTime":2830.757,"endTime":2834.027,"body":"double check you'd have to go there,"},{"startTime":2830.757,"endTime":2834.027,"body":"LinkedIn you'd I don't even know where"},{"startTime":2834.027,"endTime":2837.627,"body":"you run a background check require FBI"},{"startTime":2834.027,"endTime":2837.627,"body":"fingerprinting I don't, I don't know"},{"startTime":2837.627,"endTime":2840.767,"body":"how deep you can get into this there's"},{"startTime":2837.627,"endTime":2840.767,"body":"a certain amount of, of like, that would"},{"startTime":2840.772,"endTime":2844.007,"body":"be the, that would be the counterpoint"},{"startTime":2840.772,"endTime":2844.007,"body":"to like, well, don't pick a bad trainer."},{"startTime":2844.507,"endTime":2844.627,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2844.632,"endTime":2844.789,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2844.794,"endTime":2846.157,"body":"That, that would be the"},{"startTime":2844.794,"endTime":2846.157,"body":"counterpoint to that."},{"startTime":2846.187,"endTime":2846.397,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2847.177,"endTime":2847.567,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":2847.627,"endTime":2848.227,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2848.647,"endTime":2853.717,"body":"And being recently on the scrum"},{"startTime":2848.647,"endTime":2853.717,"body":"Alliance website and trying to research"},{"startTime":2853.717,"endTime":2859.847,"body":"trainers there isn't any opportunity"},{"startTime":2853.717,"endTime":2859.847,"body":"to do ratings on scrum Alliance."},{"startTime":2860.057,"endTime":2865.547,"body":"So some of the trainers have links to like"},{"startTime":2860.057,"endTime":2865.547,"body":"trust pilot or Google reviews, but there's"},{"startTime":2865.547,"endTime":2868.187,"body":"nothing on the scrum Alliance website."},{"startTime":2868.247,"endTime":2868.397,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2868.547,"endTime":2873.617,"body":"That allows you as a student"},{"startTime":2868.547,"endTime":2873.617,"body":"to rate a trainer period."},{"startTime":2873.737,"endTime":2873.827,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2873.832,"endTime":2874.937,"body":"I would think that's on purpose."},{"startTime":2875.487,"endTime":2875.777,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2875.777,"endTime":2881.107,"body":"I was just gonna say that, but I"},{"startTime":2875.777,"endTime":2881.107,"body":"mean, but yes, unfortunately that is"},{"startTime":2881.112,"endTime":2885.667,"body":"tarnishing their, I mean, from, I just"},{"startTime":2881.112,"endTime":2885.667,"body":"imagine that's tarnishing their name."},{"startTime":2885.817,"endTime":2889.297,"body":"I mean it is, is it the crappy one?"},{"startTime":2889.597,"endTime":2892.707,"body":"Is it because all these crumps, all"},{"startTime":2889.597,"endTime":2892.707,"body":"these scrum trainers are stamping"},{"startTime":2892.707,"endTime":2894.327,"body":"out certs and paying them money."},{"startTime":2894.827,"endTime":2897.167,"body":"So, I can bring this back to"},{"startTime":2894.827,"endTime":2897.167,"body":"something that's very real for"},{"startTime":2897.167,"endTime":2900.517,"body":"everybody to listening to the podcast,"},{"startTime":2897.167,"endTime":2900.517,"body":"which is why I hate social media."},{"startTime":2901.027,"endTime":2903.847,"body":"Like I hate social media because"},{"startTime":2901.027,"endTime":2903.847,"body":"it like I'll I'll, I don't"},{"startTime":2903.852,"endTime":2904.807,"body":"know which one to pick on."},{"startTime":2904.867,"endTime":2906.547,"body":"Uh, I wanna pick on Instagram."},{"startTime":2906.547,"endTime":2907.447,"body":"I wanna pick on LinkedIn."},{"startTime":2907.927,"endTime":2912.637,"body":"I wanna pick on LinkedIn because I feel"},{"startTime":2907.927,"endTime":2912.637,"body":"they've just taken the bad ever since"},{"startTime":2912.637,"endTime":2915.697,"body":"Microsoft bought them, they they've been"},{"startTime":2912.637,"endTime":2915.697,"body":"taken the bad from all over the place."},{"startTime":2915.967,"endTime":2920.197,"body":"Uh, but I wanna pick on Instagram"},{"startTime":2915.967,"endTime":2920.197,"body":"because like Instagram used to be like,"},{"startTime":2920.227,"endTime":2921.577,"body":"just you'd take pictures of things."},{"startTime":2921.577,"endTime":2924.327,"body":"And like, I I remember having"},{"startTime":2921.577,"endTime":2924.327,"body":"an Instagram account when there,"},{"startTime":2924.327,"endTime":2927.297,"body":"like you couldn't even, I don't"},{"startTime":2924.327,"endTime":2927.297,"body":"even think you could write text."},{"startTime":2927.507,"endTime":2930.207,"body":"It, it would literally was"},{"startTime":2927.507,"endTime":2930.207,"body":"just pictures, you know?"},{"startTime":2930.237,"endTime":2932.637,"body":"And people would like your pictures"},{"startTime":2930.237,"endTime":2932.637,"body":"and I'm like, this is cool."},{"startTime":2932.697,"endTime":2934.797,"body":"This just, you take pictures and"},{"startTime":2932.697,"endTime":2934.797,"body":"you post 'em, there's not there's"},{"startTime":2934.797,"endTime":2937.887,"body":"no, there's no drama involved."},{"startTime":2938.437,"endTime":2939.632,"body":"and I was like, it's really cool."},{"startTime":2939.637,"endTime":2942.532,"body":"It's like, it was a thing for"},{"startTime":2939.637,"endTime":2942.532,"body":"photographers and whatnot like that."},{"startTime":2942.532,"endTime":2945.112,"body":"It was like that type of social,"},{"startTime":2942.532,"endTime":2945.112,"body":"like sort of like flicker."},{"startTime":2945.607,"endTime":2949.487,"body":"Way back in the day it's like the,"},{"startTime":2945.607,"endTime":2949.487,"body":"the photographers, social media we"},{"startTime":2949.487,"endTime":2950.627,"body":"like filters and stuff like that."},{"startTime":2950.627,"endTime":2954.447,"body":"So but like now it's the they wanna"},{"startTime":2950.627,"endTime":2954.447,"body":"be TikTok, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2954.477,"endTime":2956.187,"body":"They, because they're"},{"startTime":2954.477,"endTime":2956.187,"body":"like, oh, we like money."},{"startTime":2956.187,"endTime":2959.837,"body":"And we want people to stay in the app,"},{"startTime":2956.187,"endTime":2959.837,"body":"cuz that, that is the, that is the"},{"startTime":2959.842,"endTime":2965.657,"body":"metric that we've rallied behind of time"},{"startTime":2959.842,"endTime":2965.657,"body":"for users in the app in one session."},{"startTime":2966.227,"endTime":2970.557,"body":"And we will literally burn our entire"},{"startTime":2966.227,"endTime":2970.557,"body":"app to the ground to increase the"},{"startTime":2970.557,"endTime":2971.847,"body":"time that people spend in the app."},{"startTime":2971.877,"endTime":2973.797,"body":"And  the experience is garbage."},{"startTime":2973.827,"endTime":2978.867,"body":"It's just, it's nothing but ads"},{"startTime":2973.827,"endTime":2978.867,"body":"now so again, like the reason"},{"startTime":2978.867,"endTime":2982.377,"body":"I kind of bring that up is like"},{"startTime":2978.867,"endTime":2982.377,"body":"it, what your company prioritize."},{"startTime":2982.877,"endTime":2987.737,"body":"Kind of changes the whole"},{"startTime":2982.877,"endTime":2987.737,"body":"experience until the whole"},{"startTime":2987.737,"endTime":2989.477,"body":"product is garbage mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":2989.807,"endTime":2992.117,"body":"And that that's again, if the"},{"startTime":2989.807,"endTime":2992.117,"body":"only thing you care about is"},{"startTime":2992.117,"endTime":2994.187,"body":"like, well, we got our money."},{"startTime":2994.457,"endTime":2997.847,"body":"Mm-hmm  I, every time they turn"},{"startTime":2994.457,"endTime":2997.847,"body":"into training class, they're sending"},{"startTime":2997.852,"endTime":2999.757,"body":"us, our, our, our, our bucks."},{"startTime":3000.257,"endTime":3002.657,"body":"So I think you can make"},{"startTime":3000.257,"endTime":3002.657,"body":"money and still be ethical."},{"startTime":3002.657,"endTime":3006.977,"body":"And I think there's actually an ethical"},{"startTime":3002.657,"endTime":3006.977,"body":"issue here too, in the sense that, yeah."},{"startTime":3007.037,"endTime":3007.337,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3007.342,"endTime":3008.327,"body":"They're making money."},{"startTime":3008.637,"endTime":3013.617,"body":", but with these subpar trainers and with"},{"startTime":3008.637,"endTime":3013.617,"body":"the experience that I had yesterday"},{"startTime":3013.797,"endTime":3019.317,"body":"with 19 other people in the room, the"},{"startTime":3013.797,"endTime":3019.317,"body":"majority of which this was their intro"},{"startTime":3019.377,"endTime":3023.547,"body":"into agile scrum mm-hmm  product period."},{"startTime":3024.222,"endTime":3026.112,"body":"They don't know what good is."},{"startTime":3026.112,"endTime":3031.872,"body":"So their ex their basis of what good is,"},{"startTime":3026.112,"endTime":3031.872,"body":"is what they experience their basis of"},{"startTime":3031.872,"endTime":3035.562,"body":"what agile and scrum is, is what they saw."},{"startTime":3035.562,"endTime":3039.132,"body":"And I know that not to be true,"},{"startTime":3035.562,"endTime":3039.132,"body":"just because I've been in, I've"},{"startTime":3039.132,"endTime":3040.272,"body":"been in this for a little while."},{"startTime":3040.272,"endTime":3042.162,"body":"I'm not some OG like you guys, right."},{"startTime":3042.162,"endTime":3045.282,"body":"You've been a lot longer than"},{"startTime":3042.162,"endTime":3045.282,"body":"me, but long enough to know that"},{"startTime":3045.282,"endTime":3047.802,"body":"what I saw was a bunch of BS."},{"startTime":3048.222,"endTime":3050.322,"body":"So it's just a matter of time."},{"startTime":3050.372,"endTime":3055.262,"body":"If we're churning out these people"},{"startTime":3050.372,"endTime":3055.262,"body":"who are being trained in a subpar"},{"startTime":3055.262,"endTime":3059.072,"body":"manner, they are ultimately, he."},{"startTime":3059.572,"endTime":3064.932,"body":"You they're ending up, over a period of"},{"startTime":3059.572,"endTime":3064.932,"body":"time, just eliminating themselves right."},{"startTime":3064.932,"endTime":3067.122,"body":"At, at what point do we surpass?"},{"startTime":3067.127,"endTime":3070.392,"body":"So you said exponentially they've been"},{"startTime":3067.127,"endTime":3070.392,"body":"growing as far as trainers, right?"},{"startTime":3070.392,"endTime":3074.052,"body":"What percentage of those trainers"},{"startTime":3070.392,"endTime":3074.052,"body":"actually meet any particular level?"},{"startTime":3074.052,"endTime":3077.082,"body":"Which by the way, we don't"},{"startTime":3074.052,"endTime":3077.082,"body":"have any way to gauge that."},{"startTime":3077.087,"endTime":3077.352,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3077.502,"endTime":3077.562,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3077.562,"endTime":3078.312,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":3078.317,"endTime":3082.272,"body":"So what benchmark is, is any"},{"startTime":3078.317,"endTime":3082.272,"body":"one of those actually meeting"},{"startTime":3082.572,"endTime":3085.002,"body":"to train these people properly."},{"startTime":3085.182,"endTime":3088.542,"body":"And those that are falling below that"},{"startTime":3085.182,"endTime":3088.542,"body":"benchmark and the people that are"},{"startTime":3088.542,"endTime":3093.162,"body":"walking away, trained and now certified,"},{"startTime":3088.542,"endTime":3093.162,"body":"and now on their new way to become"},{"startTime":3093.162,"endTime":3098.372,"body":"the next trainer, this is getting"},{"startTime":3093.162,"endTime":3098.372,"body":"watered down and worse and worse."},{"startTime":3098.472,"endTime":3103.062,"body":"And we wonder why we have companies"},{"startTime":3098.472,"endTime":3103.062,"body":"who can't grasp agile, like right."},{"startTime":3103.152,"endTime":3105.492,"body":"We can't have, we we're, we're"},{"startTime":3103.152,"endTime":3105.492,"body":"churning out people that don't"},{"startTime":3105.497,"endTime":3106.632,"body":"freaking know what it is."},{"startTime":3107.332,"endTime":3110.482,"body":"Let me add gasoline before you before we"},{"startTime":3107.332,"endTime":3110.482,"body":"jump on that one, because I wanna, I want,"},{"startTime":3110.512,"endTime":3116.212,"body":"I want to crowbar this into the topic of,"},{"startTime":3110.512,"endTime":3116.212,"body":"we've gone to training with people like"},{"startTime":3116.242,"endTime":3119.692,"body":"this in training classes like this, where"},{"startTime":3116.242,"endTime":3119.692,"body":"I'm like, I'm very worried about these"},{"startTime":3119.692,"endTime":3123.562,"body":"people going into industry mm-hmm  with"},{"startTime":3119.692,"endTime":3123.562,"body":"what they've taken away from this class."},{"startTime":3124.402,"endTime":3130.112,"body":"And those people move into director"},{"startTime":3124.402,"endTime":3130.112,"body":"of agile development roles, or,"},{"startTime":3130.112,"endTime":3132.242,"body":"you know what I mean, high, high"},{"startTime":3130.112,"endTime":3132.242,"body":"level roles in organizations."},{"startTime":3132.242,"endTime":3135.332,"body":"Cause they've got 15 certs or"},{"startTime":3132.242,"endTime":3135.332,"body":"whatever, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":3135.332,"endTime":3135.422,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3135.422,"endTime":3137.942,"body":"Under the belts that they had"},{"startTime":3135.422,"endTime":3137.942,"body":"gotten in within the course of"},{"startTime":3138.272,"endTime":3139.997,"body":"six months , and they become."},{"startTime":3140.532,"endTime":3141.582,"body":"The face of industry."},{"startTime":3141.742,"endTime":3147.867,"body":"I wanted to crowbar this into the category"},{"startTime":3141.742,"endTime":3147.867,"body":"of  these people will come onto companies"},{"startTime":3147.987,"endTime":3150.237,"body":"in high level positions over time."},{"startTime":3150.867,"endTime":3155.837,"body":"And they will be the ones to hire people"},{"startTime":3150.867,"endTime":3155.837,"body":"or, or the other thing is companies"},{"startTime":3155.837,"endTime":3160.637,"body":"looking to like, oh, oh, this agile thing,"},{"startTime":3155.837,"endTime":3160.637,"body":"we gotta get this agile thing going on."},{"startTime":3160.817,"endTime":3164.087,"body":"Like, they'll look to hire these people"},{"startTime":3160.817,"endTime":3164.087,"body":"and they'll look to the market and"},{"startTime":3164.087,"endTime":3165.857,"body":"they don't have anything to grasp onto."},{"startTime":3165.857,"endTime":3170.687,"body":"They don't know how to hire good"},{"startTime":3165.857,"endTime":3170.687,"body":"candidates in these positions."},{"startTime":3170.687,"endTime":3175.187,"body":"So they'll more certifications the"},{"startTime":3170.687,"endTime":3175.187,"body":"better mm-hmm  like that, that, so"},{"startTime":3175.337,"endTime":3178.547,"body":"the, the, the problem propagates."},{"startTime":3179.222,"endTime":3183.992,"body":"pass the, the, the certification"},{"startTime":3179.222,"endTime":3183.992,"body":"industrial complex into industry"},{"startTime":3184.532,"endTime":3186.362,"body":"and now industry gets diluted down."},{"startTime":3186.452,"endTime":3190.982,"body":"Yes, I talk when I ever, I talked, I,"},{"startTime":3186.452,"endTime":3190.982,"body":"I, I seriously talk to head hunters."},{"startTime":3191.482,"endTime":3196.312,"body":"every, probably every two weeks I will be"},{"startTime":3191.482,"endTime":3196.312,"body":"talking to head hunters and they're just,"},{"startTime":3196.312,"endTime":3197.752,"body":"they don't know what they're looking for."},{"startTime":3197.752,"endTime":3199.762,"body":"Mm-hmm,  the companies there"},{"startTime":3197.752,"endTime":3199.762,"body":"we're trying to recruit for."},{"startTime":3199.972,"endTime":3200.962,"body":"Don't know what they're looking for."},{"startTime":3200.962,"endTime":3201.502,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":3201.802,"endTime":3204.743,"body":"And I don't mind sitting down, I'm not"},{"startTime":3201.802,"endTime":3204.743,"body":"really looking for a job, but I, I don't"},{"startTime":3204.748,"endTime":3206.932,"body":"mind sitting down and talking with them"},{"startTime":3204.748,"endTime":3206.932,"body":"and talking about like, Hey, these are"},{"startTime":3206.932,"endTime":3208.402,"body":"the questions you should be asking."},{"startTime":3208.942,"endTime":3210.382,"body":"These, these are the red flags."},{"startTime":3210.387,"endTime":3213.182,"body":"You should be looking for"},{"startTime":3210.387,"endTime":3213.182,"body":"actual experience candidates"},{"startTime":3213.262,"endTime":3214.072,"body":"that you're gonna be getting."},{"startTime":3214.282,"endTime":3218.572,"body":"These are the things that if"},{"startTime":3214.282,"endTime":3218.572,"body":"you find that they're not gonna."},{"startTime":3219.112,"endTime":3220.342,"body":"Look for these positions."},{"startTime":3220.342,"endTime":3224.032,"body":"Like they they're gonna run from these,"},{"startTime":3220.342,"endTime":3224.032,"body":"if these situations are happening."},{"startTime":3224.032,"endTime":3224.092,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3224.152,"endTime":3227.092,"body":"They're gonna run from these"},{"startTime":3224.152,"endTime":3227.092,"body":"positions and like may, like maybe"},{"startTime":3227.092,"endTime":3229.732,"body":"you can take it way, way back to"},{"startTime":3227.092,"endTime":3229.732,"body":"like the first 10 minutes of podcast."},{"startTime":3229.737,"endTime":3232.542,"body":"Like maybe if you have I don't know,"},{"startTime":3229.737,"endTime":3232.542,"body":"recruiters are just recruiters that"},{"startTime":3232.542,"endTime":3236.252,"body":"are just trying to put butts and seats"},{"startTime":3232.542,"endTime":3236.252,"body":"and collect their 20% or whatever,"},{"startTime":3236.252,"endTime":3237.602,"body":"50% or whatever they're trying to get."},{"startTime":3237.602,"endTime":3239.612,"body":"Like maybe they don't,"},{"startTime":3237.602,"endTime":3239.612,"body":"they could care less."},{"startTime":3239.612,"endTime":3241.892,"body":"Like whatever dude I'm"},{"startTime":3239.612,"endTime":3241.892,"body":"getting paid, leave me alone."},{"startTime":3241.922,"endTime":3242.432,"body":"Mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":3242.432,"endTime":3243.032,"body":"It's possible."},{"startTime":3243.092,"endTime":3247.322,"body":"But that, that's the thing like the,"},{"startTime":3243.092,"endTime":3247.322,"body":"the, the problem with the training"},{"startTime":3248.072,"endTime":3253.382,"body":"body only caring about money is they're"},{"startTime":3248.072,"endTime":3253.382,"body":"not helping industry at that point."},{"startTime":3253.832,"endTime":3255.362,"body":"The same thing with college,"},{"startTime":3253.832,"endTime":3255.362,"body":"you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":3255.392,"endTime":3258.242,"body":"Just, just, just taking people's"},{"startTime":3255.392,"endTime":3258.242,"body":"money and churn out degrees."},{"startTime":3258.482,"endTime":3259.982,"body":"You are not helping industry."},{"startTime":3260.342,"endTime":3263.612,"body":"You're just saddling people with a"},{"startTime":3260.342,"endTime":3263.612,"body":"bunch you're basically taking people's."},{"startTime":3264.112,"endTime":3265.252,"body":"and you're not giving them something."},{"startTime":3265.252,"endTime":3269.812,"body":"That's gonna be valuable if we're going,"},{"startTime":3265.252,"endTime":3269.812,"body":"if I'm gonna put a product slant sure."},{"startTime":3269.812,"endTime":3273.862,"body":"I would be remiss if I didn't mention"},{"startTime":3269.812,"endTime":3273.862,"body":"what I think might be worth trying"},{"startTime":3273.862,"endTime":3278.902,"body":"as a remedy to this situation is go"},{"startTime":3273.862,"endTime":3278.902,"body":"back to the old days of journeymen"},{"startTime":3278.962,"endTime":3281.312,"body":"and women work with somebody."},{"startTime":3281.317,"endTime":3281.467,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3281.677,"endTime":3283.177,"body":"Forget the certifications."},{"startTime":3283.177,"endTime":3283.627,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":3283.632,"endTime":3284.287,"body":"Forget them."},{"startTime":3284.287,"endTime":3285.547,"body":"I said, right."},{"startTime":3285.757,"endTime":3286.837,"body":"Oh, go back."},{"startTime":3287.467,"endTime":3289.117,"body":"Work with somebody for years."},{"startTime":3289.167,"endTime":3293.037,"body":"Work there and then have"},{"startTime":3289.167,"endTime":3293.037,"body":"that person vouch for you."},{"startTime":3293.037,"endTime":3293.757,"body":"Mm-hmm  yes."},{"startTime":3293.757,"endTime":3294.267,"body":"He's good."},{"startTime":3294.267,"endTime":3294.957,"body":"No, he's not."},{"startTime":3294.957,"endTime":3295.287,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3295.357,"endTime":3298.041,"body":"He can catch a fly with one"},{"startTime":3295.357,"endTime":3298.041,"body":"chopstick, whatever it is."},{"startTime":3298.041,"endTime":3300.121,"body":"Mm-hmm . That is the only way I know."},{"startTime":3300.441,"endTime":3302.151,"body":"I, I keep thinking about Mr."},{"startTime":3302.151,"endTime":3302.721,"body":"Miyagi."},{"startTime":3303.141,"endTime":3304.121,"body":"Oh, Hey, you wanna challenge?"},{"startTime":3304.626,"endTime":3305.286,"body":"Yeah, one job."},{"startTime":3305.396,"endTime":3307.766,"body":"Just one chop seems excessive."},{"startTime":3307.776,"endTime":3308.076,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3308.646,"endTime":3309.246,"body":"Little excessive."},{"startTime":3309.246,"endTime":3309.996,"body":"That was Bruce Lee."},{"startTime":3310.116,"endTime":3311.106,"body":"Not, not Mr."},{"startTime":3311.236,"endTime":3311.526,"body":"MIGI."},{"startTime":3311.666,"endTime":3313.326,"body":"The one chop check was yeah, no, no."},{"startTime":3313.376,"endTime":3313.796,"body":"No, yeah."},{"startTime":3313.796,"endTime":3316.256,"body":"Anyway, so yeah, I think it's"},{"startTime":3313.796,"endTime":3316.256,"body":"worth thinking through this right?"},{"startTime":3316.526,"endTime":3320.906,"body":"While we still have a few people"},{"startTime":3316.526,"endTime":3320.906,"body":"that can actually do the job yeah."},{"startTime":3320.906,"endTime":3323.096,"body":"Is for them to take onto their belt."},{"startTime":3323.156,"endTime":3325.976,"body":"You know, some of these people"},{"startTime":3323.156,"endTime":3325.976,"body":"bring them in and groom them."},{"startTime":3326.036,"endTime":3326.576,"body":"Uh, yes."},{"startTime":3326.576,"endTime":3330.956,"body":"I'll use that word cuz I mean that in"},{"startTime":3326.576,"endTime":3330.956,"body":"that way mm-hmm,  groom them through the"},{"startTime":3330.956,"endTime":3335.246,"body":"trade mm-hmm  you know, and then have"},{"startTime":3330.956,"endTime":3335.246,"body":"them come out and do the same thing."},{"startTime":3335.456,"endTime":3339.206,"body":"Mm-hmm  the only thing that flies"},{"startTime":3335.456,"endTime":3339.206,"body":"against this approach is volume."},{"startTime":3339.211,"endTime":3341.516,"body":"You don't have certificates,"},{"startTime":3339.211,"endTime":3341.516,"body":"you don't have volume."},{"startTime":3341.756,"endTime":3345.596,"body":"There are only a few people that can"},{"startTime":3341.756,"endTime":3345.596,"body":"do this and do it justice mm-hmm  yeah."},{"startTime":3346.106,"endTime":3346.996,"body":"That's what I'll say."},{"startTime":3346.996,"endTime":3347.236,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3347.241,"endTime":3347.636,"body":"I love that."},{"startTime":3347.636,"endTime":3350.456,"body":"You said that and I will tell you"},{"startTime":3347.636,"endTime":3350.456,"body":"that actually is something that I"},{"startTime":3350.456,"endTime":3355.676,"body":"have been desperately looking to find"},{"startTime":3350.456,"endTime":3355.676,"body":"in, in for over the last I would say."},{"startTime":3356.291,"endTime":3360.071,"body":"I don't know, six or eight months, cuz"},{"startTime":3356.291,"endTime":3360.071,"body":"you know, a after I've decided to kind"},{"startTime":3360.071,"endTime":3366.481,"body":"of move towards this mission, just I love"},{"startTime":3360.071,"endTime":3366.481,"body":"to teach because I love to learn and the"},{"startTime":3366.481,"endTime":3370.201,"body":"more that I teach, the more I learn, the"},{"startTime":3366.481,"endTime":3370.201,"body":"more relevant I stay, I just enjoy it."},{"startTime":3370.201,"endTime":3374.331,"body":"And I always have but  I"},{"startTime":3370.201,"endTime":3374.331,"body":"want to be somebody good."},{"startTime":3374.451,"endTime":3379.581,"body":"And so my goal has been to try to find"},{"startTime":3374.451,"endTime":3379.581,"body":"for instance, consulting agencies,"},{"startTime":3379.586,"endTime":3383.751,"body":"or maybe that has some kind of a, a"},{"startTime":3379.586,"endTime":3383.751,"body":"leveling approach where they bring you"},{"startTime":3383.751,"endTime":3386.071,"body":"in and allow you to work with a team."},{"startTime":3386.071,"endTime":3386.131,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3386.161,"endTime":3387.991,"body":"So you, you could really"},{"startTime":3386.161,"endTime":3387.991,"body":"learn the ropes now."},{"startTime":3388.261,"endTime":3390.841,"body":"I mean, I have a, a great understanding."},{"startTime":3390.841,"endTime":3392.521,"body":"I have confidence I can get up."},{"startTime":3392.521,"endTime":3395.251,"body":"I can talk, but I wanna do it."},{"startTime":3395.256,"endTime":3395.701,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3395.731,"endTime":3401.161,"body":"And I don't wanna have to use clients"},{"startTime":3395.731,"endTime":3401.161,"body":"as I refuse to use clients as Guinea,"},{"startTime":3401.161,"endTime":3406.441,"body":"pigs mm-hmm . And I refuse to perpetuate"},{"startTime":3401.161,"endTime":3406.441,"body":"what I have for by firsthand experience"},{"startTime":3406.441,"endTime":3410.431,"body":"experienced as an, a huge problem"},{"startTime":3406.441,"endTime":3410.431,"body":"in this industry as of yesterday."},{"startTime":3410.701,"endTime":3414.421,"body":"Well, hat off to you for, for taking"},{"startTime":3410.701,"endTime":3414.421,"body":"a stance there, cuz most people don't."},{"startTime":3414.421,"endTime":3416.251,"body":"So first of all, kudos for that."},{"startTime":3416.431,"endTime":3417.091,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":3417.3,"endTime":3417.84,"body":"Well, thank you."},{"startTime":3418.346,"endTime":3421.046,"body":"I think strong Alliance is Missing"},{"startTime":3418.346,"endTime":3421.046,"body":"a truckload of money right there."},{"startTime":3421.046,"endTime":3424.786,"body":"I think again, I think  if we're gonna"},{"startTime":3421.046,"endTime":3424.786,"body":"dip into fixes for a second, like I,"},{"startTime":3424.816,"endTime":3428.826,"body":"cuz I totally want to get talking about"},{"startTime":3424.816,"endTime":3428.826,"body":"your if we're gonna dip into fixes for"},{"startTime":3428.826,"endTime":3434.226,"body":"a second talking about how can we help"},{"startTime":3428.826,"endTime":3434.226,"body":"companies, um be more aware and to be"},{"startTime":3434.226,"endTime":3439.346,"body":"more I guess, effective in their hiring"},{"startTime":3434.226,"endTime":3439.346,"body":"mm-hmm  um, yeah, there, there probably"},{"startTime":3439.346,"endTime":3440.876,"body":"should be some kind of base level."},{"startTime":3441.026,"endTime":3443.886,"body":"I, I think the base level entry"},{"startTime":3441.026,"endTime":3443.886,"body":"though, I don't know if I agree with"},{"startTime":3443.886,"endTime":3445.986,"body":"retitling it as like ALIST or whatever."},{"startTime":3446.466,"endTime":3451.146,"body":"I would want anyone who goes through the"},{"startTime":3446.466,"endTime":3451.146,"body":"base level entry to be able to conduct the"},{"startTime":3451.336,"endTime":3455.386,"body":"sessions, to be able to conduct the events"},{"startTime":3451.336,"endTime":3455.386,"body":"mm-hmm  to, to understand the importance"},{"startTime":3455.386,"endTime":3459.166,"body":"of each event, to be able to explain each"},{"startTime":3455.386,"endTime":3459.166,"body":"event and to be able to actually run them."},{"startTime":3459.406,"endTime":3462.106,"body":"Should, should they be designated"},{"startTime":3459.406,"endTime":3462.106,"body":"as the person to run them?"},{"startTime":3462.246,"endTime":3465.436,"body":"I, I would expect you to come and"},{"startTime":3462.246,"endTime":3465.436,"body":"honestly you probably could like"},{"startTime":3465.676,"endTime":3470.836,"body":"a day mm-hmm  maybe to, to these"},{"startTime":3465.676,"endTime":3470.836,"body":"are the events, this is how to run."},{"startTime":3471.556,"endTime":3472.336,"body":"Hmm a day."},{"startTime":3472.876,"endTime":3473.116,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3473.176,"endTime":3476.506,"body":"I don't two, almost like"},{"startTime":3473.176,"endTime":3476.506,"body":"a mock kind of thing."},{"startTime":3476.506,"endTime":3477.136,"body":"Is that what you're saying?"},{"startTime":3477.216,"endTime":3477.736,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":3477.741,"endTime":3477.856,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3477.856,"endTime":3480.916,"body":"I mean, I've, I've done mock"},{"startTime":3477.856,"endTime":3480.916,"body":"interviews for other reasons, not"},{"startTime":3480.916,"endTime":3483.971,"body":"particularly in that manner, but"},{"startTime":3480.916,"endTime":3483.971,"body":"I've had to do presentations and I"},{"startTime":3483.971,"endTime":3485.381,"body":"mean, that would make sense to me."},{"startTime":3485.831,"endTime":3488.921,"body":"are you guys familiar"},{"startTime":3485.831,"endTime":3488.921,"body":"with Stephan wooer yes."},{"startTime":3488.981,"endTime":3489.311,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3489.311,"endTime":3491.771,"body":"So he has some great"},{"startTime":3489.311,"endTime":3491.771,"body":"information out there."},{"startTime":3491.801,"endTime":3496.791,"body":"I mean, in regards to, specific"},{"startTime":3491.801,"endTime":3496.791,"body":"interview questions for scrum"},{"startTime":3496.791,"endTime":3498.291,"body":"masters, for product owners."},{"startTime":3498.291,"endTime":3498.351,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3498.351,"endTime":3501.831,"body":"And how to kind of like weed"},{"startTime":3498.351,"endTime":3501.831,"body":"out the imposters, so to speak."},{"startTime":3502.141,"endTime":3507.601,"body":", but they really get into not"},{"startTime":3502.141,"endTime":3507.601,"body":"just definitions but situations."},{"startTime":3507.606,"endTime":3507.781,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3508.081,"endTime":3510.811,"body":"Mm-hmm  so in this"},{"startTime":3508.081,"endTime":3510.811,"body":"situation, what would you do?"},{"startTime":3510.811,"endTime":3514.111,"body":"And so it gets you into some more critical"},{"startTime":3510.811,"endTime":3514.111,"body":"thinking and going like, all right,"},{"startTime":3514.111,"endTime":3516.031,"body":"this is somebody who's done this before."},{"startTime":3516.031,"endTime":3519.031,"body":"And so yeah, so he has some"},{"startTime":3516.031,"endTime":3519.031,"body":"great material out there."},{"startTime":3519.241,"endTime":3519.481,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3519.501,"endTime":3524.191,"body":"I'm just like, I'm, I'm trying to come"},{"startTime":3519.501,"endTime":3524.191,"body":"at from, from the perspective of if"},{"startTime":3524.191,"endTime":3525.811,"body":"we're gonna train the whole organization."},{"startTime":3525.991,"endTime":3526.351,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":3526.851,"endTime":3528.741,"body":"Well, like we need to encompass"},{"startTime":3526.851,"endTime":3528.741,"body":"the whole organization."},{"startTime":3528.741,"endTime":3529.881,"body":"We need to encompass."},{"startTime":3530.421,"endTime":3531.921,"body":"Okay, here, here are the basics."},{"startTime":3532.011,"endTime":3534.231,"body":"Mm-hmm , here's what you need"},{"startTime":3532.011,"endTime":3534.231,"body":"to be a scrum master, right?"},{"startTime":3534.261,"endTime":3535.731,"body":"May, maybe a day outta that."},{"startTime":3535.941,"endTime":3539.331,"body":"And then now if we're gonna"},{"startTime":3535.941,"endTime":3539.331,"body":"branch off into specialties."},{"startTime":3539.671,"endTime":3542.491,"body":"And what, what I think of is"},{"startTime":3539.671,"endTime":3542.491,"body":"like the advanced versions."},{"startTime":3542.821,"endTime":3545.791,"body":"Again, I don't know what's in"},{"startTime":3542.821,"endTime":3545.791,"body":"professional, so they, they could knock my"},{"startTime":3545.791,"endTime":3549.901,"body":"socks off for professional and I, I could"},{"startTime":3545.791,"endTime":3549.901,"body":"totally be like, oh, I'm wrong completely"},{"startTime":3549.901,"endTime":3551.521,"body":"professional's a whole different world."},{"startTime":3552.001,"endTime":3554.871,"body":"I kind of suspect it's not,"},{"startTime":3552.001,"endTime":3554.871,"body":"but, who knows I could be wrong?"},{"startTime":3555.301,"endTime":3559.561,"body":"I'm kind of, I would branch out to"},{"startTime":3555.301,"endTime":3559.561,"body":"say there should be like a, I also"},{"startTime":3559.561,"endTime":3561.001,"body":"don't know what's in developer track."},{"startTime":3561.271,"endTime":3566.661,"body":"There should be a PO track in advance,"},{"startTime":3561.271,"endTime":3566.661,"body":"scrum master track, like some,"},{"startTime":3566.661,"endTime":3569.991,"body":"some kind of advanced facilitator"},{"startTime":3566.661,"endTime":3569.991,"body":"and change agent, etc, etc."},{"startTime":3569.991,"endTime":3570.561,"body":"Servant leader"},{"startTime":3571.251,"endTime":3573.681,"body":"maybe developer track with whatever"},{"startTime":3571.251,"endTime":3573.681,"body":"they have in development track."},{"startTime":3573.681,"endTime":3575.211,"body":"I don't know what they have"},{"startTime":3573.681,"endTime":3575.211,"body":"in that track right now."},{"startTime":3575.491,"endTime":3580.631,"body":", and then maybe the leader track, maybe the"},{"startTime":3575.491,"endTime":3580.631,"body":"certified agile leader track encompasses."},{"startTime":3581.036,"endTime":3587.466,"body":"HR, the matrix type manager and their"},{"startTime":3581.036,"endTime":3587.466,"body":"role in organizations how , finance,"},{"startTime":3587.466,"endTime":3589.356,"body":"budgeting, finance, and budgeting works."},{"startTime":3589.856,"endTime":3591.991,"body":"Mm-hmm  yeah, maybe"},{"startTime":3589.856,"endTime":3591.991,"body":"targeted more as managers."},{"startTime":3591.996,"endTime":3592.301,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":3592.321,"endTime":3595.382,"body":"But like, you still need"},{"startTime":3592.321,"endTime":3595.382,"body":"to do the CSM first."},{"startTime":3595.387,"endTime":3597.391,"body":"Mm-hmm  I don't see how you, he"},{"startTime":3595.387,"endTime":3597.391,"body":"jumps straight into that and don't"},{"startTime":3597.391,"endTime":3600.181,"body":"know how any of the events work."},{"startTime":3600.901,"endTime":3604.831,"body":"So just to learn about those"},{"startTime":3600.901,"endTime":3604.831,"body":"kinds of things like events, and"},{"startTime":3604.831,"endTime":3606.541,"body":"you know what scrum is all about."},{"startTime":3607.051,"endTime":3611.041,"body":"You don't need to do a CSM, you can"},{"startTime":3607.051,"endTime":3611.041,"body":"do a fundamentals, which is only one"},{"startTime":3611.041,"endTime":3614.316,"body":"day, and it covers all of these things"},{"startTime":3611.041,"endTime":3614.316,"body":"so kind of a different prerequisite."},{"startTime":3614.316,"endTime":3619.116,"body":"So basically that prerequisite that"},{"startTime":3614.316,"endTime":3619.116,"body":"requires you to gain an understanding of"},{"startTime":3619.116,"endTime":3624.516,"body":"agile and whichever framework, or maybe"},{"startTime":3619.116,"endTime":3624.516,"body":"multiple frameworks dependent on  what"},{"startTime":3624.516,"endTime":3626.766,"body":"certification you're going for, but yeah."},{"startTime":3626.766,"endTime":3628.176,"body":"To get those baselines in."},{"startTime":3628.176,"endTime":3631.686,"body":"And I think that would be applicable"},{"startTime":3628.176,"endTime":3631.686,"body":"to each and every certification."},{"startTime":3631.686,"endTime":3634.146,"body":"You must understand those things."},{"startTime":3634.176,"endTime":3635.796,"body":"That's exactly where I'm coming from."},{"startTime":3635.796,"endTime":3637.296,"body":"Cause it covers scrum and compound."},{"startTime":3637.696,"endTime":3640.086,"body":"It doesn't cover everything,"},{"startTime":3637.696,"endTime":3640.086,"body":"but it's enough to start with."},{"startTime":3640.116,"endTime":3640.476,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3640.536,"endTime":3644.406,"body":"And it's a one day, but plus"},{"startTime":3640.536,"endTime":3644.406,"body":"the biggest thing is it's not a"},{"startTime":3644.406,"endTime":3646.206,"body":"certificate so you can attend it."},{"startTime":3646.206,"endTime":3651.716,"body":"It's it's for free and anybody"},{"startTime":3646.206,"endTime":3651.716,"body":"who's a CSP or I believe yeah."},{"startTime":3651.716,"endTime":3658.886,"body":"A CSP CSP, scrum master, or a CSP PO is"},{"startTime":3651.716,"endTime":3658.886,"body":"entitled to teach one of these classes."},{"startTime":3658.891,"endTime":3660.941,"body":"Mm-hmm . So, oh, that makes sense."},{"startTime":3660.941,"endTime":3663.401,"body":"And you know, what, if it's gonna"},{"startTime":3660.941,"endTime":3663.401,"body":"be a free class, it should probably"},{"startTime":3663.401,"endTime":3666.371,"body":"be in online and maybe even recorded"},{"startTime":3663.401,"endTime":3666.371,"body":"or something doesn't necessarily"},{"startTime":3666.371,"endTime":3671.481,"body":"have to be live and should require,"},{"startTime":3666.371,"endTime":3671.481,"body":"some kind of testing I think too."},{"startTime":3671.481,"endTime":3674.681,"body":"So some kind of anyway, I think"},{"startTime":3671.481,"endTime":3674.681,"body":"we're getting, yeah, we don't need"},{"startTime":3674.681,"endTime":3676.001,"body":"to plan out this, this whole thing."},{"startTime":3676.001,"endTime":3678.666,"body":"No, but one of the other thing I"},{"startTime":3676.001,"endTime":3678.666,"body":"wanted to Brian, a point I wanted"},{"startTime":3678.666,"endTime":3685.056,"body":"to make is that none of this works,"},{"startTime":3678.666,"endTime":3685.056,"body":"unless you have leadership truly"},{"startTime":3685.061,"endTime":3688.266,"body":"engaged in making a cultural change."},{"startTime":3689.196,"endTime":3692.286,"body":"unless, I mean, there are certain"},{"startTime":3689.196,"endTime":3692.286,"body":"situations where that's not necessarily"},{"startTime":3692.286,"endTime":3695.286,"body":"true, so you can have an organization"},{"startTime":3692.286,"endTime":3695.286,"body":"where you actually have kind of"},{"startTime":3695.286,"endTime":3698.896,"body":"like a little microcosm, like you're"},{"startTime":3695.286,"endTime":3698.896,"body":"almost a mini organization yeah."},{"startTime":3698.901,"endTime":3699.726,"body":"Where you're broken off."},{"startTime":3699.726,"endTime":3703.926,"body":"And sometimes that is a development"},{"startTime":3699.726,"endTime":3703.926,"body":"section where you're isolated from, or"},{"startTime":3703.931,"endTime":3708.906,"body":"even protected from kind of business"},{"startTime":3703.931,"endTime":3708.906,"body":"mm-hmm . But if that's not the case, but"},{"startTime":3708.906,"endTime":3712.626,"body":"even if it is, you still got leadership,"},{"startTime":3708.906,"endTime":3712.626,"body":"that's going to be on like, okay, when"},{"startTime":3712.626,"endTime":3714.156,"body":"are we getting what we're paying for this?"},{"startTime":3714.156,"endTime":3718.836,"body":"You know, their leadership"},{"startTime":3714.156,"endTime":3718.836,"body":"must be involved, engaged."},{"startTime":3718.836,"endTime":3722.401,"body":"And you talked about making this kind"},{"startTime":3718.836,"endTime":3722.401,"body":"of organizational or looking at this"},{"startTime":3722.401,"endTime":3723.901,"body":"from an organizational perspective."},{"startTime":3724.591,"endTime":3726.211,"body":"I think that's numero uno.."},{"startTime":3726.211,"endTime":3731.371,"body":"You have to have leadership involved,"},{"startTime":3726.211,"endTime":3731.371,"body":"engaged, have an understanding and truly."},{"startTime":3731.846,"endTime":3733.766,"body":"Truly being the change agents."},{"startTime":3733.836,"endTime":3736.626,"body":", so we need to figure out, so"},{"startTime":3733.836,"endTime":3736.626,"body":"then they would need to figure"},{"startTime":3736.626,"endTime":3738.096,"body":"out why, why are we doing this?"},{"startTime":3738.096,"endTime":3741.576,"body":"Because we heard agile is cool and"},{"startTime":3738.096,"endTime":3741.576,"body":"we're supposed to be doing this, or what"},{"startTime":3741.581,"endTime":3743.796,"body":"problems are we actually trying to solve?"},{"startTime":3743.851,"endTime":3747.751,"body":"So we need to get management on"},{"startTime":3743.851,"endTime":3747.751,"body":"board with determining that, and"},{"startTime":3747.841,"endTime":3751.141,"body":"then they can buy into, all right,"},{"startTime":3747.841,"endTime":3751.141,"body":"we're gonna make this change."},{"startTime":3751.141,"endTime":3753.271,"body":"We're gonna lead this change"},{"startTime":3751.141,"endTime":3753.271,"body":"and we're gonna be help to"},{"startTime":3753.271,"endTime":3754.861,"body":"be the change agents for it."},{"startTime":3754.866,"endTime":3755.031,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3755.531,"endTime":3759.761,"body":"So when you were talking about"},{"startTime":3755.531,"endTime":3759.761,"body":"having the entry level be like an"},{"startTime":3759.761,"endTime":3761.831,"body":"agile fundamental class, right?"},{"startTime":3762.251,"endTime":3767.371,"body":"I was gonna say I, I was gonna take"},{"startTime":3762.251,"endTime":3767.371,"body":"that one and argue about it, but now"},{"startTime":3767.376,"endTime":3770.461,"body":"that you've introduced, there are some"},{"startTime":3767.376,"endTime":3770.461,"body":"prerequisites that's organizationally"},{"startTime":3770.941,"endTime":3775.551,"body":"in order to be effective, that we"},{"startTime":3770.941,"endTime":3775.551,"body":"might as well not bother doing, trying"},{"startTime":3775.551,"endTime":3779.391,"body":"to do scrum or whatever combo, any"},{"startTime":3775.551,"endTime":3779.391,"body":"kind of agile, anything, if we're not"},{"startTime":3779.391,"endTime":3782.361,"body":"doing like there's some, there's some"},{"startTime":3779.391,"endTime":3782.361,"body":"base level stuff that we have to do."},{"startTime":3782.511,"endTime":3783.621,"body":"so I started changing my mind."},{"startTime":3783.621,"endTime":3787.181,"body":"What, what I was gonna say"},{"startTime":3783.621,"endTime":3787.181,"body":"originally was I want everyone to"},{"startTime":3787.181,"endTime":3791.821,"body":"go through the CSM because the CSM"},{"startTime":3787.181,"endTime":3791.821,"body":"has some floor level understanding."},{"startTime":3791.821,"endTime":3794.641,"body":"Like you gotta have teams"},{"startTime":3791.821,"endTime":3794.641,"body":"mm-hmm  you gotta have products."},{"startTime":3794.791,"endTime":3796.771,"body":"You gotta, you have teams"},{"startTime":3794.791,"endTime":3796.771,"body":"that maintain the products."},{"startTime":3796.841,"endTime":3799.841,"body":"If, if you're not doing that,"},{"startTime":3796.841,"endTime":3799.841,"body":"like the whole model falls apart."},{"startTime":3800.081,"endTime":3807.011,"body":"So maybe,  I want everyone that"},{"startTime":3800.081,"endTime":3807.011,"body":"comes in to go through the CSM first."},{"startTime":3807.161,"endTime":3810.281,"body":"Mm-hmm  that that's kind of where I'm"},{"startTime":3807.161,"endTime":3810.281,"body":"going back to, and kind of, my brain is"},{"startTime":3810.461,"endTime":3813.551,"body":"now anchoring on that because we brought"},{"startTime":3810.461,"endTime":3813.551,"body":"it up and it made sense in my mind."},{"startTime":3813.551,"endTime":3814.601,"body":"Now I'm stuck on that idea."},{"startTime":3814.991,"endTime":3816.641,"body":"And the reason is because."},{"startTime":3817.286,"endTime":3820.616,"body":"No matter where you sit in the"},{"startTime":3817.286,"endTime":3820.616,"body":"organization, no matter if you're C level"},{"startTime":3820.616,"endTime":3824.306,"body":"executive, no matter if you're a single"},{"startTime":3820.616,"endTime":3824.306,"body":"developer on a single team, no matter if"},{"startTime":3824.306,"endTime":3828.646,"body":"you're on an enabling team that's scaled"},{"startTime":3824.306,"endTime":3828.646,"body":"across you have seven teams that work"},{"startTime":3828.646,"endTime":3830.266,"body":"for you and you're on an enabling team."},{"startTime":3830.266,"endTime":3834.406,"body":"And you're, you're like, you're a team"},{"startTime":3830.266,"endTime":3834.406,"body":"of leads and you have a bunch of teams"},{"startTime":3834.411,"endTime":3837.466,"body":"that work under you and you just kind"},{"startTime":3834.411,"endTime":3837.466,"body":"of pop in, pop out as they need stuff."},{"startTime":3837.676,"endTime":3839.146,"body":"Doesn't matter where you're"},{"startTime":3837.676,"endTime":3839.146,"body":"at in the organization."},{"startTime":3839.646,"endTime":3842.946,"body":"you are doing scrum or whatever, right?"},{"startTime":3842.946,"endTime":3844.206,"body":"Mm-hmm  scrum or one or the other."},{"startTime":3844.656,"endTime":3847.146,"body":"You're doing scrum Orban at some level."},{"startTime":3847.146,"endTime":3850.956,"body":"Mm-hmm,  so everywhere in your"},{"startTime":3847.146,"endTime":3850.956,"body":"organization, even at the C-suite, you're"},{"startTime":3850.956,"endTime":3853.056,"body":"doing probably a executive combine level."},{"startTime":3853.056,"endTime":3853.326,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":3853.331,"endTime":3855.701,"body":"Program leads level, you"},{"startTime":3853.331,"endTime":3855.701,"body":"might be doing scrum."},{"startTime":3855.701,"endTime":3857.291,"body":"You might be doing koban whatever."},{"startTime":3857.341,"endTime":3861.181,"body":"You need certain base level entry skills."},{"startTime":3861.331,"endTime":3862.681,"body":"You need to know what."},{"startTime":3863.341,"endTime":3867.121,"body":"the scrum master's job is because at"},{"startTime":3863.341,"endTime":3867.121,"body":"any time you could be called on, on that"},{"startTime":3867.121,"endTime":3872.491,"body":"team to do the scrum master's job, or"},{"startTime":3867.121,"endTime":3872.491,"body":"you might be doing kanban in support"},{"startTime":3872.491,"endTime":3875.651,"body":"of other teams doing scrum, but at your"},{"startTime":3872.491,"endTime":3875.651,"body":"level in the program, you're doing kanban."},{"startTime":3875.701,"endTime":3881.221,"body":"So you need to understand the correct"},{"startTime":3875.701,"endTime":3881.221,"body":"way to do kanban the, the proper way."},{"startTime":3881.221,"endTime":3881.701,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":3881.821,"endTime":3882.181,"body":"Correct."},{"startTime":3882.181,"endTime":3882.481,"body":"Correct."},{"startTime":3882.481,"endTime":3883.201,"body":"Has connotation."},{"startTime":3883.201,"endTime":3888.091,"body":"So whatever you, you kind of understand"},{"startTime":3883.201,"endTime":3888.091,"body":"at a, and I think the further up in"},{"startTime":3888.091,"endTime":3892.951,"body":"the organization, the more important"},{"startTime":3888.091,"endTime":3892.951,"body":"it is to understand the, the process"},{"startTime":3892.951,"endTime":3897.131,"body":"that your teams at at lower and lower"},{"startTime":3892.951,"endTime":3897.131,"body":"levels in the organization That you"},{"startTime":3897.131,"endTime":3898.511,"body":"understand the processes they're using."},{"startTime":3898.841,"endTime":3900.641,"body":"So you know what process they're using."},{"startTime":3900.641,"endTime":3905.351,"body":"So the appropriate most effective way"},{"startTime":3900.641,"endTime":3905.351,"body":"to go about communicating with them."},{"startTime":3905.411,"endTime":3906.881,"body":"That's a much better way that is."},{"startTime":3907.811,"endTime":3908.111,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3908.111,"endTime":3910.991,"body":"Not, not to, to not make stupid requests."},{"startTime":3911.051,"endTime":3916.061,"body":"If I put I'll put on my hat that I don't"},{"startTime":3911.051,"endTime":3916.061,"body":"like, okay the contrarian hat, most"},{"startTime":3916.061,"endTime":3919.701,"body":"organizations are doing that before"},{"startTime":3916.061,"endTime":3919.701,"body":"we were doing agile, we were doing"},{"startTime":3919.701,"endTime":3921.741,"body":"waterfall and we had project managers."},{"startTime":3922.251,"endTime":3929.201,"body":"And now this, our masters, we got 'em same"},{"startTime":3922.251,"endTime":3929.201,"body":"people forget about leadership, right?"},{"startTime":3929.201,"endTime":3930.941,"body":"That doesn't, these people"},{"startTime":3929.201,"endTime":3930.941,"body":"are doing any job, any sense?"},{"startTime":3931.301,"endTime":3932.531,"body":"That doesn't make any sense to me."},{"startTime":3932.531,"endTime":3934.961,"body":"So you don't have an"},{"startTime":3932.531,"endTime":3934.961,"body":"empowered scrum master."},{"startTime":3934.961,"endTime":3939.221,"body":"You don't have an empowered product"},{"startTime":3934.961,"endTime":3939.221,"body":"owner, unless you have leadership."},{"startTime":3939.221,"endTime":3941.861,"body":"That's going to empower"},{"startTime":3939.221,"endTime":3941.861,"body":"them and respect them."},{"startTime":3942.221,"endTime":3947.051,"body":"I think, to your point, like going back"},{"startTime":3942.221,"endTime":3947.051,"body":"to that, I I'm buying into your CSM."},{"startTime":3947.726,"endTime":3951.806,"body":"Kind of double down because yes, the"},{"startTime":3947.726,"endTime":3951.806,"body":"entry it's like, it's, it's the price"},{"startTime":3951.806,"endTime":3953.886,"body":"you gotta pay to enter the dance, right?"},{"startTime":3953.886,"endTime":3957.796,"body":"Like you need to know the, the, you need"},{"startTime":3953.886,"endTime":3957.796,"body":"to know how to dance before we let you"},{"startTime":3957.796,"endTime":3960.676,"body":"in mm-hmm  like we can't have a bunch"},{"startTime":3957.796,"endTime":3960.676,"body":"of clowns around the dance floor who"},{"startTime":3960.676,"endTime":3962.446,"body":"aren't gonna be involved in dancing."},{"startTime":3962.446,"endTime":3964.216,"body":"Cuz we just have a bunch"},{"startTime":3962.446,"endTime":3964.216,"body":"of dudes standing around."},{"startTime":3964.336,"endTime":3966.166,"body":"You need to know how to dance, to get in."},{"startTime":3966.226,"endTime":3967.706,"body":"That's your price of admission."},{"startTime":3967.946,"endTime":3969.986,"body":"We're having a hard enough"},{"startTime":3967.946,"endTime":3969.986,"body":"time getting leadership to take"},{"startTime":3969.986,"endTime":3971.696,"body":"Cal classes, nevermind CSM."},{"startTime":3971.746,"endTime":3976.101,"body":"I think the CSMs more important"},{"startTime":3971.746,"endTime":3976.101,"body":"potentially than a Cal class  to"},{"startTime":3976.101,"endTime":3983.131,"body":"understand and respect the role and"},{"startTime":3976.101,"endTime":3983.131,"body":"understand their role in empowering."},{"startTime":3983.631,"endTime":3989.031,"body":"and empowering those people to be able"},{"startTime":3983.631,"endTime":3989.031,"body":"to do their job in my experience, the"},{"startTime":3989.036,"endTime":3994.821,"body":"biggest impediment to a product owner or"},{"startTime":3989.036,"endTime":3994.821,"body":"a scrum master, being able to actually"},{"startTime":3994.826,"endTime":3997.851,"body":"do their job appropriately is leadership."},{"startTime":3998.351,"endTime":4002.322,"body":"So a lot of leadership that are in"},{"startTime":3998.351,"endTime":4002.322,"body":"those positions here, directors and"},{"startTime":4002.327,"endTime":4004.881,"body":"above, they don't want to take a class."},{"startTime":4004.881,"endTime":4006.381,"body":"That's a scrum master class."},{"startTime":4006.381,"endTime":4008.551,"body":"We have scrum masters for"},{"startTime":4006.381,"endTime":4008.551,"body":"that go it something they"},{"startTime":4008.551,"endTime":4009.631,"body":"don't that they dress it up."},{"startTime":4009.851,"endTime":4012.591,"body":"It pretty, they don't have"},{"startTime":4009.851,"endTime":4012.591,"body":"scrum masters for that first."},{"startTime":4012.621,"endTime":4015.261,"body":"They have, they have project"},{"startTime":4012.621,"endTime":4015.261,"body":"managers with a scrum master head on."},{"startTime":4015.351,"endTime":4016.491,"body":"I've never, I've never seen."},{"startTime":4016.491,"endTime":4016.701,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4016.706,"endTime":4019.101,"body":"I was gonna say, I've never seen"},{"startTime":4016.706,"endTime":4019.101,"body":"organization that has leadership"},{"startTime":4019.101,"endTime":4021.411,"body":"with that attitude that actually"},{"startTime":4019.101,"endTime":4021.411,"body":"does have scrum masters."},{"startTime":4021.531,"endTime":4021.861,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4022.141,"endTime":4023.331,"body":"They, they just have labels."},{"startTime":4023.541,"endTime":4024.151,"body":"That's what they have."},{"startTime":4024.151,"endTime":4027.516,"body":"So, so make some pretty little"},{"startTime":4024.151,"endTime":4027.516,"body":"like fancy dancing, special"},{"startTime":4027.521,"endTime":4029.976,"body":"leadership class that is basically."},{"startTime":4030.831,"endTime":4035.601,"body":"A CSM class, it's an introduction to agile"},{"startTime":4030.831,"endTime":4035.601,"body":"and scrum, and they get to understand"},{"startTime":4035.601,"endTime":4037.521,"body":"exactly what a scrum master does."},{"startTime":4037.521,"endTime":4042.561,"body":"Exactly what a product owner does and how"},{"startTime":4037.521,"endTime":4042.561,"body":"they must support them, that they must"},{"startTime":4042.566,"endTime":4045.261,"body":"empower and respect their developers."},{"startTime":4045.261,"endTime":4047.781,"body":"And that, that we're going to"},{"startTime":4045.261,"endTime":4047.781,"body":"be have self-organizing and"},{"startTime":4047.781,"endTime":4048.981,"body":"we're gonna trust our teams."},{"startTime":4048.981,"endTime":4050.751,"body":"They're gonna learn about"},{"startTime":4048.981,"endTime":4050.751,"body":"psychological safety."},{"startTime":4051.051,"endTime":4055.281,"body":"So I think I, yeah, listen,"},{"startTime":4051.051,"endTime":4055.281,"body":"we, we don't disagree."},{"startTime":4055.286,"endTime":4058.881,"body":"I'm just thinking that selling"},{"startTime":4055.286,"endTime":4058.881,"body":"that two day class to senior level"},{"startTime":4058.881,"endTime":4063.941,"body":"leadership is a taller climb than"},{"startTime":4058.881,"endTime":4063.941,"body":"selling them a six hour class that"},{"startTime":4064.151,"endTime":4068.981,"body":"walks 'em through basics of agility"},{"startTime":4064.151,"endTime":4068.981,"body":"now, which includes their role in it."},{"startTime":4069.041,"endTime":4069.251,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4069.371,"endTime":4070.841,"body":"It does include their role in it."},{"startTime":4070.901,"endTime":4071.171,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4071.171,"endTime":4075.791,"body":"Now that I do, I definitely do not"},{"startTime":4071.171,"endTime":4075.791,"body":"disagree with mm-hmm  I, I think the, the"},{"startTime":4075.791,"endTime":4081.211,"body":"curriculum needs to be broken up in a way"},{"startTime":4075.791,"endTime":4081.211,"body":"where you could break it up to, divide it"},{"startTime":4081.211,"endTime":4083.671,"body":"over the course of an entire week to get."},{"startTime":4084.406,"endTime":4088.616,"body":"People who are otherwise very busy"},{"startTime":4084.406,"endTime":4088.616,"body":"read between the lines, like people"},{"startTime":4088.616,"endTime":4091.766,"body":"who are completely slaves to their"},{"startTime":4088.616,"endTime":4091.766,"body":"calendar, who just can't break out."},{"startTime":4092.086,"endTime":4093.256,"body":", you need, it's a badge of honor for them."},{"startTime":4093.256,"endTime":4093.526,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4093.526,"endTime":4094.036,"body":"I know it is."},{"startTime":4094.431,"endTime":4097.531,"body":"you need to break it up where"},{"startTime":4094.431,"endTime":4097.531,"body":"people that are in those"},{"startTime":4097.531,"endTime":4099.921,"body":"positions can make time for it."},{"startTime":4100.131,"endTime":4100.431,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4101.241,"endTime":4102.681,"body":"And it needs to be broken up that way."},{"startTime":4103.251,"endTime":4106.651,"body":"You know, now the way it's sold and that"},{"startTime":4103.251,"endTime":4106.651,"body":"kind of stuff, like that's that's yeah."},{"startTime":4107.041,"endTime":4107.821,"body":"It's beside the point."},{"startTime":4108.451,"endTime":4113.221,"body":"The point that we're on now is"},{"startTime":4108.451,"endTime":4113.221,"body":"building a better curriculum."},{"startTime":4113.971,"endTime":4115.231,"body":"Again, the reason I brought this up."},{"startTime":4115.731,"endTime":4120.631,"body":"I think that if you're gonna build a base"},{"startTime":4115.731,"endTime":4120.631,"body":"curriculum I, I definitely agree with you"},{"startTime":4120.631,"endTime":4122.341,"body":"agile fundamentals why are we doing this?"},{"startTime":4122.371,"endTime":4122.731,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":4122.731,"endTime":4123.871,"body":"What, what is agile?"},{"startTime":4123.871,"endTime":4125.101,"body":"Why, why are we doing it?"},{"startTime":4125.341,"endTime":4130.431,"body":"I mean, where is it contrasting compare"},{"startTime":4125.341,"endTime":4130.431,"body":"to waterfall or whatever whatever nonsense"},{"startTime":4130.821,"endTime":4135.271,"body":"uh, somebody, I wish I could remember the"},{"startTime":4130.821,"endTime":4135.271,"body":"quote, somebody who's talking about small"},{"startTime":4135.271,"endTime":4139.181,"body":"companies is like the, the most successful"},{"startTime":4135.271,"endTime":4139.181,"body":"small companies, like they, you think of"},{"startTime":4139.181,"endTime":4142.511,"body":"small companies, you think of like chaos"},{"startTime":4139.181,"endTime":4142.511,"body":"in their processes, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":4142.511,"endTime":4144.221,"body":"They just kind of are working"},{"startTime":4142.511,"endTime":4144.221,"body":"on whatever latest fires."},{"startTime":4144.221,"endTime":4146.501,"body":"But like, if you really think about"},{"startTime":4144.221,"endTime":4146.501,"body":"it, sit down and think about for"},{"startTime":4146.501,"endTime":4147.811,"body":"a second that's actually not true."},{"startTime":4147.991,"endTime":4148.771,"body":"Like small companies."},{"startTime":4148.801,"endTime":4154.526,"body":"the launch communications are, are, are"},{"startTime":4148.801,"endTime":4154.526,"body":"much, much cleaner and shorter, shorter."},{"startTime":4154.526,"endTime":4155.566,"body":"Fewer of fewer."},{"startTime":4155.566,"endTime":4155.726,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4155.726,"endTime":4156.126,"body":"Few fewer."},{"startTime":4156.126,"endTime":4156.406,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4156.411,"endTime":4162.111,"body":"so when they have some, something"},{"startTime":4156.411,"endTime":4162.111,"body":"that is not covered in an existing"},{"startTime":4162.116,"endTime":4167.391,"body":"process, it is much faster for them"},{"startTime":4162.116,"endTime":4167.391,"body":"to just stop what they're doing."},{"startTime":4167.991,"endTime":4169.701,"body":"Come up with a process."},{"startTime":4170.201,"endTime":4172.811,"body":"For the thing that they've"},{"startTime":4170.201,"endTime":4172.811,"body":"encountered that is new or not"},{"startTime":4172.811,"endTime":4175.081,"body":"covered and then get back to business."},{"startTime":4175.601,"endTime":4180.221,"body":"So the idea is you are by introducing"},{"startTime":4175.601,"endTime":4180.221,"body":"everyone to CSM slash cuz now we've"},{"startTime":4180.226,"endTime":4185.581,"body":"introduced like Theban training in by"},{"startTime":4180.226,"endTime":4185.581,"body":"introducing everyone to like, these are"},{"startTime":4185.586,"endTime":4189.351,"body":"the two processes that can basically"},{"startTime":4185.586,"endTime":4189.351,"body":"cover everything in your business and"},{"startTime":4189.351,"endTime":4192.431,"body":"giving them a day or two, to cover."},{"startTime":4192.461,"endTime":4194.651,"body":"Here are the basics for"},{"startTime":4192.461,"endTime":4194.651,"body":"each of these processes."},{"startTime":4194.921,"endTime":4198.131,"body":"Now you can apply them in your"},{"startTime":4194.921,"endTime":4198.131,"body":"organization at different levels."},{"startTime":4198.491,"endTime":4203.411,"body":"And from those two, from, from that,"},{"startTime":4198.491,"endTime":4203.411,"body":"from that one thing from that fundamental"},{"startTime":4203.651,"endTime":4205.511,"body":"class, now you get certifications."},{"startTime":4205.731,"endTime":4211.901,"body":"Now you can, arrange the basic process"},{"startTime":4205.731,"endTime":4211.901,"body":"for whatever your company's using."},{"startTime":4212.231,"endTime":4214.091,"body":"Now, from here, you become a specialist."},{"startTime":4214.466,"endTime":4216.686,"body":"Do you wanna become a specialist"},{"startTime":4214.466,"endTime":4216.686,"body":"in the product domain?"},{"startTime":4216.686,"endTime":4220.316,"body":"Do you wanna become a specialist"},{"startTime":4216.686,"endTime":4220.316,"body":"in the facilitation slash"},{"startTime":4220.346,"endTime":4221.876,"body":"coaching slash scrum master?"},{"startTime":4221.876,"endTime":4223.616,"body":"Like there's not a good"},{"startTime":4221.876,"endTime":4223.616,"body":"name for it, right."},{"startTime":4223.866,"endTime":4227.226,"body":"domain, do you wanna be a, a"},{"startTime":4223.866,"endTime":4227.226,"body":"specialist in the leadership domain?"},{"startTime":4227.266,"endTime":4228.136,"body":"those are the tracks."},{"startTime":4228.181,"endTime":4231.021,"body":"But I mean, is that, is"},{"startTime":4228.181,"endTime":4231.021,"body":"that a better curriculum?"},{"startTime":4231.441,"endTime":4236.241,"body":"You know, like if, if we can, if we"},{"startTime":4231.441,"endTime":4236.241,"body":"can, if agile Alliance, scrum Alliance,"},{"startTime":4236.241,"endTime":4239.151,"body":"whatever comes to us and it's like,"},{"startTime":4236.241,"endTime":4239.151,"body":"oh,  you can change our search."},{"startTime":4239.151,"endTime":4239.931,"body":"What do you think?"},{"startTime":4240.301,"endTime":4242.601,"body":"Om and Stormy, like what,"},{"startTime":4240.301,"endTime":4242.601,"body":"what do you think like give,"},{"startTime":4242.601,"endTime":4244.381,"body":"give me a, a better track."},{"startTime":4244.381,"endTime":4245.191,"body":"Give me a suggestion."},{"startTime":4245.191,"endTime":4248.671,"body":"Like what, what would your suggestion"},{"startTime":4245.191,"endTime":4248.671,"body":"be to, for a better curriculum?"},{"startTime":4249.171,"endTime":4253.311,"body":"A better curriculum than what they"},{"startTime":4249.171,"endTime":4253.311,"body":"have would be to not compartmentalize"},{"startTime":4253.311,"endTime":4254.721,"body":"from the get, go to your point."},{"startTime":4254.721,"endTime":4256.651,"body":"Mm-hmm  just have the basics covered."},{"startTime":4256.656,"endTime":4259.831,"body":"So everybody at least"},{"startTime":4256.656,"endTime":4259.831,"body":"understands the same language."},{"startTime":4260.191,"endTime":4260.551,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4260.551,"endTime":4263.401,"body":"And they're not lost when"},{"startTime":4260.551,"endTime":4263.401,"body":"somebody says something."},{"startTime":4263.406,"endTime":4267.736,"body":"So when a developer hears, for"},{"startTime":4263.406,"endTime":4267.736,"body":"example, value chain, they don't"},{"startTime":4267.736,"endTime":4269.716,"body":"go the X one is those right."},{"startTime":4269.896,"endTime":4271.096,"body":"Or roll their eyes."},{"startTime":4271.096,"endTime":4271.696,"body":"Cause they yeah."},{"startTime":4271.696,"endTime":4272.446,"body":"Or roll their eyes."},{"startTime":4272.776,"endTime":4273.286,"body":"Here we go."},{"startTime":4273.316,"endTime":4273.616,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4273.826,"endTime":4274.426,"body":"So, yeah."},{"startTime":4274.486,"endTime":4278.506,"body":"So for all of those purposes, we,"},{"startTime":4274.486,"endTime":4278.506,"body":"we need a level of understanding."},{"startTime":4278.506,"endTime":4280.996,"body":"It's sort of like learning your ABCs."},{"startTime":4281.516,"endTime":4284.416,"body":"You know, mm-hmm  and otherwise"},{"startTime":4281.516,"endTime":4284.416,"body":"you're not speaking the same language."},{"startTime":4284.626,"endTime":4284.746,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4284.746,"endTime":4287.836,"body":"So do that and then synthesize"},{"startTime":4284.746,"endTime":4287.836,"body":"on top of it, to your point."},{"startTime":4288.106,"endTime":4293.366,"body":"Some things that go to more specificity"},{"startTime":4288.106,"endTime":4293.366,"body":"toward development, for example scrum,"},{"startTime":4293.366,"endTime":4299.346,"body":"masters, coaching, product ownership,"},{"startTime":4293.366,"endTime":4299.346,"body":"but I almost wanna say abolish those"},{"startTime":4299.346,"endTime":4303.786,"body":"advanced level ones for the time"},{"startTime":4299.346,"endTime":4303.786,"body":"being, let people grow at that point"},{"startTime":4304.146,"endTime":4307.146,"body":"and then have them do the other."},{"startTime":4307.266,"endTime":4311.466,"body":"So if you came up through, let's say"},{"startTime":4307.266,"endTime":4311.466,"body":"scrum master track, I'll call it that"},{"startTime":4311.926,"endTime":4314.476,"body":"have them take some classes later."},{"startTime":4314.506,"endTime":4318.356,"body":"Once they've matured a little on"},{"startTime":4314.506,"endTime":4318.356,"body":"the product ownership class and have"},{"startTime":4318.356,"endTime":4322.046,"body":"them play the role because it's one"},{"startTime":4318.356,"endTime":4322.046,"body":"thing to sit in a class and take a"},{"startTime":4322.046,"endTime":4323.956,"body":"CSPO and it's another to play the."},{"startTime":4324.671,"endTime":4325.691,"body":"Of a product owner."},{"startTime":4326.081,"endTime":4327.881,"body":"I'm not suggesting you"},{"startTime":4326.081,"endTime":4327.881,"body":"throw 'em out to the wolves."},{"startTime":4328.031,"endTime":4331.271,"body":"Maybe a product owner can take"},{"startTime":4328.031,"endTime":4331.271,"body":"them under their wing for a"},{"startTime":4331.271,"endTime":4332.471,"body":"project for a little while."},{"startTime":4332.501,"endTime":4336.391,"body":"Mm-hmm . and, and you know, that, that's"},{"startTime":4332.501,"endTime":4336.391,"body":"what I think might be worth doing."},{"startTime":4336.571,"endTime":4337.111,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":4337.231,"endTime":4338.431,"body":"Just an idea here."},{"startTime":4338.436,"endTime":4343.531,"body":"So we do a lot of in a lot of industries,"},{"startTime":4338.436,"endTime":4343.531,"body":"they have cross training mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":4343.801,"endTime":4348.661,"body":"So we will actually have, for instance,"},{"startTime":4343.801,"endTime":4348.661,"body":", even in development where we'll have"},{"startTime":4348.661,"endTime":4352.421,"body":"developers who are working on something"},{"startTime":4348.661,"endTime":4352.421,"body":"very specific maybe they're getting"},{"startTime":4352.421,"endTime":4353.441,"body":"bored, maybe they're getting tired."},{"startTime":4353.446,"endTime":4355.781,"body":"Maybe we need some cross pollination."},{"startTime":4356.121,"endTime":4361.251,"body":"but maybe that's part of the"},{"startTime":4356.121,"endTime":4361.251,"body":"requirements for elevating is the"},{"startTime":4361.311,"endTime":4366.811,"body":"elevating kind of that career path is"},{"startTime":4361.311,"endTime":4366.811,"body":"being able to share that knowledge."},{"startTime":4367.096,"endTime":4373.566,"body":"And pass that on to someone as"},{"startTime":4367.096,"endTime":4373.566,"body":"a CSPO to a CSM or vice versa."},{"startTime":4373.986,"endTime":4375.936,"body":"So I dunno, just throwing"},{"startTime":4373.986,"endTime":4375.936,"body":"some things out there."},{"startTime":4376.056,"endTime":4376.206,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4376.206,"endTime":4377.556,"body":"That cross pollination."},{"startTime":4377.556,"endTime":4380.166,"body":"And I mean, they're all"},{"startTime":4377.556,"endTime":4380.166,"body":"part of the same team."},{"startTime":4380.256,"endTime":4380.376,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4380.436,"endTime":4385.126,"body":"And I think actually developers would"},{"startTime":4380.436,"endTime":4385.126,"body":"be great to put in the mix here too."},{"startTime":4385.156,"endTime":4389.296,"body":"Not necessarily I don't need, I don't"},{"startTime":4385.156,"endTime":4389.296,"body":"need to, as a PO to know development,"},{"startTime":4389.776,"endTime":4396.766,"body":"but it wouldn't be a bad idea for me to"},{"startTime":4389.776,"endTime":4396.766,"body":"sit with and understand, understand the"},{"startTime":4396.766,"endTime":4398.476,"body":"process and how they're going through."},{"startTime":4398.476,"endTime":4402.546,"body":"And then the, the same for them, for me"},{"startTime":4398.476,"endTime":4402.546,"body":"to really kind of understand that process"},{"startTime":4403.276,"endTime":4406.696,"body":"that creates again, empathy trust, right?"},{"startTime":4406.696,"endTime":4410.836,"body":"So those things, they, they do help"},{"startTime":4406.696,"endTime":4410.836,"body":"to build great team dynamics as well."},{"startTime":4410.841,"endTime":4415.156,"body":"Well, I agree play like almost a day in"},{"startTime":4410.841,"endTime":4415.156,"body":"the life off, but obviously do it over"},{"startTime":4415.161,"endTime":4417.016,"body":"a longer period of time here and there."},{"startTime":4417.166,"endTime":4420.076,"body":"You don't have to do that for a"},{"startTime":4417.166,"endTime":4420.076,"body":"week sitting next to them, but"},{"startTime":4420.616,"endTime":4422.566,"body":"for as a PO for you, it might."},{"startTime":4423.441,"endTime":4426.781,"body":"It might be useful to know"},{"startTime":4423.441,"endTime":4426.781,"body":"what they mean when they say"},{"startTime":4426.831,"endTime":4429.131,"body":"merge my, go to the main lines."},{"startTime":4429.131,"endTime":4431.721,"body":"Mm-hmm  say, well, the next one of"},{"startTime":4429.131,"endTime":4431.721,"body":"those, that sounds like a train station."},{"startTime":4431.811,"endTime":4433.011,"body":"Mm-hmm  whatever."},{"startTime":4433.071,"endTime":4433.371,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4433.371,"endTime":4436.761,"body":"So I think it's useful to at least"},{"startTime":4433.371,"endTime":4436.761,"body":"normalize the language mm-hmm  and"},{"startTime":4436.761,"endTime":4439.551,"body":"then see some of the challenges"},{"startTime":4436.761,"endTime":4439.551,"body":"that they face mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":4440.241,"endTime":4440.991,"body":"And vice versa."},{"startTime":4440.991,"endTime":4441.471,"body":"I'm sure."},{"startTime":4441.741,"endTime":4442.071,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":4442.171,"endTime":4446.901,"body":"what about the product managers out there"},{"startTime":4442.171,"endTime":4446.901,"body":"that are like pseudo product managers?"},{"startTime":4447.401,"endTime":4450.091,"body":"Like they're actually product"},{"startTime":4447.401,"endTime":4450.091,"body":"mark marketing managers."},{"startTime":4450.151,"endTime":4450.361,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":4450.791,"endTime":4451.201,"body":"So yeah."},{"startTime":4451.201,"endTime":4453.601,"body":"First you need to define product manager."},{"startTime":4453.631,"endTime":4453.811,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4453.811,"endTime":4458.461,"body":"You can't really well, like product"},{"startTime":4453.811,"endTime":4458.461,"body":"manager is like, I can't think of like."},{"startTime":4458.961,"endTime":4462.741,"body":"I even think that scrum master"},{"startTime":4458.961,"endTime":4462.741,"body":"is kind of more settled than"},{"startTime":4462.741,"endTime":4464.151,"body":"product manager at this point."},{"startTime":4464.181,"endTime":4467.541,"body":"I think product manager is more"},{"startTime":4464.181,"endTime":4467.541,"body":"in the wild west kind of evolving"},{"startTime":4467.541,"endTime":4469.461,"body":"than, than the even scrum master is."},{"startTime":4469.761,"endTime":4474.981,"body":"because when I see product, even going"},{"startTime":4469.761,"endTime":4474.981,"body":"back to the last podcast, when you were"},{"startTime":4474.981,"endTime":4478.521,"body":"here stormy, like the, the there's a"},{"startTime":4474.981,"endTime":4478.521,"body":"lot of product managers out there that"},{"startTime":4478.571,"endTime":4480.731,"body":"they don't even have a development team."},{"startTime":4481.151,"endTime":4481.361,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":4481.366,"endTime":4483.671,"body":"They, they just hand things off"},{"startTime":4481.366,"endTime":4483.671,"body":"to the engineering manager and the"},{"startTime":4483.671,"endTime":4484.991,"body":"engineering manager takes care of it."},{"startTime":4484.996,"endTime":4490.261,"body":"And then, not only could they not hang"},{"startTime":4484.996,"endTime":4490.261,"body":"in a technical discussion and they"},{"startTime":4490.301,"endTime":4494.251,"body":"would, they would not be useful in"},{"startTime":4490.301,"endTime":4494.251,"body":"discussion of the technical roadmap"},{"startTime":4494.251,"endTime":4497.101,"body":"versus whatever roadmap versus"},{"startTime":4494.251,"endTime":4497.101,"body":"features or whatever like that."},{"startTime":4497.341,"endTime":4499.621,"body":"They're just not even,"},{"startTime":4497.341,"endTime":4499.621,"body":"they're not even interested."},{"startTime":4500.041,"endTime":4504.001,"body":"In being in that conversation and"},{"startTime":4500.041,"endTime":4504.001,"body":"their bosses completely support them"},{"startTime":4504.241,"endTime":4505.771,"body":"of like, why would you get nugget?"},{"startTime":4505.921,"endTime":4508.321,"body":"You're a product you're not Al in any way."},{"startTime":4508.326,"endTime":4510.661,"body":"Why would you be in that conversation?"},{"startTime":4510.961,"endTime":4513.151,"body":"Like, I, that makes me super scared."},{"startTime":4513.181,"endTime":4517.621,"body":"Mm-hmm  because I'm like that the,"},{"startTime":4513.181,"endTime":4517.621,"body":"the, the quality of the product and"},{"startTime":4517.621,"endTime":4523.201,"body":"the technical foundation on which the"},{"startTime":4517.621,"endTime":4523.201,"body":"product is built is just as important of"},{"startTime":4523.291,"endTime":4528.966,"body":"are we making the customer happy to me,"},{"startTime":4523.291,"endTime":4528.966,"body":"but then like, I I I understand, like"},{"startTime":4529.026,"endTime":4532.086,"body":"somebody might be screaming at me and the"},{"startTime":4529.026,"endTime":4532.086,"body":"comments, like writing angry tweets of"},{"startTime":4532.091,"endTime":4534.246,"body":"like, no, Brian, you're totally wrong."},{"startTime":4534.246,"endTime":4538.006,"body":"You don't need to know any of that to"},{"startTime":4534.246,"endTime":4538.006,"body":"be an effective product manager leaving,"},{"startTime":4538.006,"endTime":4541.701,"body":"dropping, marketing out, and then making"},{"startTime":4538.006,"endTime":4541.701,"body":"20,000 more dollars or whatever, like a"},{"startTime":4541.701,"endTime":4547.301,"body":"that I think literally we could have an"},{"startTime":4541.701,"endTime":4547.301,"body":"entire freaking podcast on this topic."},{"startTime":4547.391,"endTime":4548.321,"body":"It would be a rant."},{"startTime":4548.381,"endTime":4548.861,"body":"It'd be right."},{"startTime":4548.861,"endTime":4551.531,"body":"It would be so that I"},{"startTime":4548.861,"endTime":4551.531,"body":"have so many thoughts."},{"startTime":4551.531,"endTime":4555.491,"body":"Like I have like, literally I have so"},{"startTime":4551.531,"endTime":4555.491,"body":"many opinions and thoughts on this."},{"startTime":4556.211,"endTime":4560.451,"body":"And particularly coming out of"},{"startTime":4556.211,"endTime":4560.451,"body":"the, the conference last week."},{"startTime":4561.261,"endTime":4561.481,"body":"Woo."},{"startTime":4562.311,"endTime":4567.831,"body":"And the transition that I am"},{"startTime":4562.311,"endTime":4567.831,"body":"witnessing happen and the confusion"},{"startTime":4567.831,"endTime":4571.216,"body":"in nomenclature between product owner"},{"startTime":4567.831,"endTime":4571.216,"body":"and product manager and what I seem"},{"startTime":4571.216,"endTime":4577.546,"body":"to be witnessing happening, where"},{"startTime":4571.216,"endTime":4577.546,"body":"product manager is becoming the term."},{"startTime":4577.606,"endTime":4577.756,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4577.876,"endTime":4578.026,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4578.026,"endTime":4579.976,"body":"Which is overtaking product owner."},{"startTime":4579.976,"endTime":4583.756,"body":"And I have some really, I have some"},{"startTime":4579.976,"endTime":4583.756,"body":"opinions on or hypothesis on why that's"},{"startTime":4583.756,"endTime":4588.376,"body":"happening, but yeah, I've got some, I'm"},{"startTime":4583.756,"endTime":4588.376,"body":"not even gonna get into it, but I got"},{"startTime":4588.376,"endTime":4590.236,"body":"a lot to say about what you just said."},{"startTime":4590.236,"endTime":4592.186,"body":"I feel the future rent task coming on."},{"startTime":4592.276,"endTime":4592.486,"body":"Good."},{"startTime":4593.266,"endTime":4594.596,"body":"we do rans on those."},{"startTime":4594.596,"endTime":4597.726,"body":"I like I need to collect my thoughts"},{"startTime":4594.596,"endTime":4597.726,"body":"on that one because I feel to be"},{"startTime":4597.726,"endTime":4603.376,"body":"able to portray that category in"},{"startTime":4597.726,"endTime":4603.376,"body":"well, on the podcast, I need to be"},{"startTime":4603.376,"endTime":4607.426,"body":"able to support both sides before I"},{"startTime":4603.376,"endTime":4607.426,"body":"bring it up, which I can't right now."},{"startTime":4607.926,"endTime":4609.126,"body":"But we haven't even talked about JIRA."},{"startTime":4609.186,"endTime":4610.326,"body":"Let's talk about JIRA."},{"startTime":4610.446,"endTime":4612.336,"body":"That's a whole podcast too."},{"startTime":4612.386,"endTime":4613.546,"body":"No, that's JIRA."},{"startTime":4613.546,"endTime":4614.416,"body":"And then I can talk about JIRA."},{"startTime":4614.626,"endTime":4617.776,"body":"Like the, the, listen, I like,"},{"startTime":4614.626,"endTime":4617.776,"body":"if you want a badmouth JIRA,"},{"startTime":4617.866,"endTime":4619.156,"body":"you are on the right podcast."},{"startTime":4619.156,"endTime":4622.576,"body":"Cause I love to bad mouth JIRA."},{"startTime":4623.076,"endTime":4624.426,"body":"However right."},{"startTime":4625.206,"endTime":4630.346,"body":"However, I will say JIRA is like"},{"startTime":4625.206,"endTime":4630.346,"body":"you, you could implement the most"},{"startTime":4630.866,"endTime":4637.846,"body":"simplistic version of JIRA mm-hmm  JIRA"},{"startTime":4630.866,"endTime":4637.846,"body":"con board mm-hmm  and, JIRA backlog"},{"startTime":4637.846,"endTime":4641.626,"body":"and have like, oh, don't add anything"},{"startTime":4637.846,"endTime":4641.626,"body":"new to your workflow or whatever."},{"startTime":4641.631,"endTime":4645.166,"body":"And have it be super basic"},{"startTime":4641.631,"endTime":4645.166,"body":"and get your needs met."},{"startTime":4645.211,"endTime":4648.721,"body":"If you're gonna overcomplicate"},{"startTime":4645.211,"endTime":4648.721,"body":"JIRA and have a bunch of stuff"},{"startTime":4648.721,"endTime":4651.421,"body":"and add the time now, now, now."},{"startTime":4651.921,"endTime":4656.541,"body":"I, I realize I'm making the case for"},{"startTime":4651.921,"endTime":4656.541,"body":"JIRA, which scares me quite frankly."},{"startTime":4656.781,"endTime":4660.181,"body":"However, JIRA does have some"},{"startTime":4656.781,"endTime":4660.181,"body":"built in fields that are bad."},{"startTime":4660.361,"endTime":4661.411,"body":"Mm-hmm  okay."},{"startTime":4661.411,"endTime":4665.851,"body":"Some, some time in hours,"},{"startTime":4661.411,"endTime":4665.851,"body":"estimation fields and stuff"},{"startTime":4665.851,"endTime":4667.831,"body":"that are just like bone head."},{"startTime":4667.836,"endTime":4669.151,"body":"Why did you add those?"},{"startTime":4669.451,"endTime":4671.191,"body":"Well, they don't have to be included."},{"startTime":4671.791,"endTime":4672.961,"body":"You can turn them off."},{"startTime":4673.051,"endTime":4673.351,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":4673.381,"endTime":4674.521,"body":"But by default they are on."},{"startTime":4674.641,"endTime":4674.821,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":4675.421,"endTime":4680.101,"body":"Why would you start with"},{"startTime":4675.421,"endTime":4680.101,"body":"everything as a project in JIRA?"},{"startTime":4680.701,"endTime":4681.091,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4681.181,"endTime":4682.381,"body":"Well, that's where I'd start."},{"startTime":4682.386,"endTime":4685.261,"body":"Forget about individual fields,"},{"startTime":4682.386,"endTime":4685.261,"body":"but talking about fields, right?"},{"startTime":4685.261,"endTime":4690.691,"body":"So you could, you could estimate in JIRA"},{"startTime":4685.261,"endTime":4690.691,"body":"now in fractional story points, story"},{"startTime":4690.696,"endTime":4692.431,"body":"points are confusing enough out there."},{"startTime":4692.851,"endTime":4697.351,"body":"Forget about fractional, who cares,"},{"startTime":4692.851,"endTime":4697.351,"body":"who dies on that hill when it's two"},{"startTime":4697.351,"endTime":4699.631,"body":"points or 2.5 points and not three?"},{"startTime":4699.691,"endTime":4702.521,"body":"Well, you can turn off the story"},{"startTime":4699.691,"endTime":4702.521,"body":"point field and not estimate two."},{"startTime":4702.521,"endTime":4703.321,"body":"And well you want that."},{"startTime":4703.321,"endTime":4704.521,"body":"You just don't want fractional."},{"startTime":4704.581,"endTime":4707.401,"body":"Well, well that again, they,"},{"startTime":4704.581,"endTime":4707.401,"body":"they give you an open field"},{"startTime":4707.401,"endTime":4709.111,"body":"to do whatever you want with."},{"startTime":4709.611,"endTime":4714.841,"body":"if you wanted to implement JIRA in"},{"startTime":4709.611,"endTime":4714.841,"body":"a hardcore mode I would turn off the"},{"startTime":4714.841,"endTime":4718.686,"body":"story point field and just count the,"},{"startTime":4714.841,"endTime":4718.686,"body":"because their software inherently"},{"startTime":4718.686,"endTime":4720.306,"body":"lets you count the number of stories."},{"startTime":4720.756,"endTime":4720.996,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":4720.996,"endTime":4726.426,"body":"It lets you do your estimates by story"},{"startTime":4720.996,"endTime":4726.426,"body":"points, hours, number of stories."},{"startTime":4726.426,"endTime":4730.356,"body":"So I would just turn off that our estimate"},{"startTime":4726.426,"endTime":4730.356,"body":"field and I'd turn off the story point"},{"startTime":4730.356,"endTime":4734.466,"body":"field and I'd just do it in a number"},{"startTime":4730.356,"endTime":4734.466,"body":"of stories and I, and I I'd set it to"},{"startTime":4734.466,"endTime":4735.816,"body":"hard code and then I'd hide everything."},{"startTime":4735.816,"endTime":4739.806,"body":"I'd create business value, I'd hide"},{"startTime":4735.816,"endTime":4739.806,"body":"everything else and it would be JIRA"},{"startTime":4739.806,"endTime":4743.556,"body":"on hardcore mode and each team would"},{"startTime":4739.806,"endTime":4743.556,"body":"have their own dashboard again."},{"startTime":4743.736,"endTime":4748.236,"body":"Like again, it's it's,"},{"startTime":4743.736,"endTime":4748.236,"body":"there's a simple mode of JIRA."},{"startTime":4748.296,"endTime":4753.366,"body":"Mm-hmm  like, again, the issue is"},{"startTime":4748.296,"endTime":4753.366,"body":"Atlassian is one of those companies."},{"startTime":4754.026,"endTime":4757.816,"body":"That like I, I, I just went on,"},{"startTime":4754.026,"endTime":4757.816,"body":"I, I had in the last podcast, I"},{"startTime":4757.821,"endTime":4758.806,"body":"didn't put it in the recording."},{"startTime":4758.806,"endTime":4759.736,"body":"I didn't keep it in the recording."},{"startTime":4759.736,"endTime":4763.931,"body":"But one of the last times we were here,"},{"startTime":4759.736,"endTime":4763.931,"body":"I showed one of the one of the features"},{"startTime":4763.931,"endTime":4767.501,"body":"that I had voted on that I, I, I thought"},{"startTime":4763.931,"endTime":4767.501,"body":"that would be very, very valuable."},{"startTime":4767.591,"endTime":4771.571,"body":"And one of their product managers got"},{"startTime":4767.591,"endTime":4771.571,"body":"on and was like, oh, we decided that"},{"startTime":4771.571,"endTime":4773.161,"body":"we were, we're gonna descope this."},{"startTime":4773.161,"endTime":4775.441,"body":"And we weren't gonna do it anymore"},{"startTime":4773.161,"endTime":4775.441,"body":"because there's no, there's"},{"startTime":4775.441,"endTime":4777.001,"body":"no, basically there's no money."},{"startTime":4777.006,"endTime":4777.961,"body":"He didn't phrase it this way."},{"startTime":4777.966,"endTime":4781.021,"body":"But he basically said, there's"},{"startTime":4777.966,"endTime":4781.021,"body":"no money in this feature for us."},{"startTime":4781.051,"endTime":4784.471,"body":"Mm-hmm . And it basically was, was"},{"startTime":4781.051,"endTime":4784.471,"body":"allowing you to create multiple"},{"startTime":4784.471,"endTime":4789.841,"body":"dashboards that were aggregate between"},{"startTime":4784.471,"endTime":4789.841,"body":"multiple teams up to a higher dashboard."},{"startTime":4789.841,"endTime":4792.391,"body":"So basically showing multiple"},{"startTime":4789.841,"endTime":4792.391,"body":"teams on one dashboard."},{"startTime":4793.201,"endTime":4795.091,"body":"Oh, and it would've been"},{"startTime":4793.201,"endTime":4795.091,"body":"a very helpful feature."},{"startTime":4795.096,"endTime":4798.626,"body":"Mm-hmm  but again, there's no"},{"startTime":4795.096,"endTime":4798.626,"body":"money in that for, for Atlassian."},{"startTime":4798.806,"endTime":4805.706,"body":"So he, so he was the hatchet man for that"},{"startTime":4798.806,"endTime":4805.706,"body":"feature, but I went and I looked into this"},{"startTime":4805.796,"endTime":4810.106,"body":"particular, I'm not gonna name him cuz it"},{"startTime":4805.796,"endTime":4810.106,"body":"would just be poor poor, poor behavior."},{"startTime":4810.106,"endTime":4811.036,"body":"Yeah, my poor form."},{"startTime":4811.366,"endTime":4816.006,"body":"Um, but uh, he, he had been like"},{"startTime":4811.366,"endTime":4816.006,"body":"an intern like 18 months ago and"},{"startTime":4816.006,"endTime":4817.356,"body":"it was obviously his first job."},{"startTime":4817.356,"endTime":4818.616,"body":"He's just doing what he's told to do."},{"startTime":4818.621,"endTime":4818.886,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":4818.891,"endTime":4820.356,"body":"Mm-hmm  it isn't like"},{"startTime":4818.891,"endTime":4820.356,"body":"poor following a script."},{"startTime":4820.356,"endTime":4820.636,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4820.806,"endTime":4824.226,"body":"But the funny thing is I, I started like"},{"startTime":4820.806,"endTime":4824.226,"body":"the funny thing with, with paying for"},{"startTime":4824.231,"endTime":4827.916,"body":"LinkedIn is it automatically like pops"},{"startTime":4824.231,"endTime":4827.916,"body":"up his coworkers and all that started"},{"startTime":4827.916,"endTime":4830.646,"body":"going through their backgrounds and all"},{"startTime":4827.916,"endTime":4830.646,"body":"again, I was like, oh, that's so weird."},{"startTime":4830.646,"endTime":4835.986,"body":"Like all their product managers are all"},{"startTime":4830.646,"endTime":4835.986,"body":"this like straight outta school intern"},{"startTime":4835.986,"endTime":4838.746,"body":"first job kind of like do what I say."},{"startTime":4839.256,"endTime":4843.086,"body":"Or else, and I'm like, mm I'm starting"},{"startTime":4839.256,"endTime":4843.086,"body":"to get a good starting to get a good"},{"startTime":4843.086,"endTime":4846.456,"body":"scope of your organization and what"},{"startTime":4843.086,"endTime":4846.456,"body":"they're really about but I can't"},{"startTime":4846.486,"endTime":4847.836,"body":"like, I can't really blame Atlassian."},{"startTime":4847.841,"endTime":4851.466,"body":"Like they're, they're not really like,"},{"startTime":4847.841,"endTime":4851.466,"body":"I, I, I told somebody very recently,"},{"startTime":4851.466,"endTime":4853.816,"body":"I was like they're not like that."},{"startTime":4854.086,"endTime":4858.646,"body":"The principal centered and driven"},{"startTime":4854.086,"endTime":4858.646,"body":"type of agilist type of people."},{"startTime":4858.646,"endTime":4861.906,"body":"Like they, they may have been that"},{"startTime":4858.646,"endTime":4861.906,"body":"type of company at one point I'm sure"},{"startTime":4861.906,"endTime":4863.406,"body":"all those people are gone by now."},{"startTime":4863.406,"endTime":4866.706,"body":"It's, it's the people that are like,"},{"startTime":4863.406,"endTime":4866.706,"body":"if we sell the implementation, we"},{"startTime":4866.706,"endTime":4870.186,"body":"gotta get more butts in seats on"},{"startTime":4866.706,"endTime":4870.186,"body":"a license so we can charge more."},{"startTime":4870.216,"endTime":4872.856,"body":"And then we gotta force in to"},{"startTime":4870.216,"endTime":4872.856,"body":"buy more plugins because we get"},{"startTime":4872.856,"endTime":4874.806,"body":"50% of every plugin that we sell."},{"startTime":4874.896,"endTime":4876.486,"body":"And like that's their business model now."},{"startTime":4876.546,"endTime":4881.456,"body":"Mm-hmm  so every much like the Instagram"},{"startTime":4876.546,"endTime":4881.456,"body":"example I used before like, because their"},{"startTime":4881.461,"endTime":4884.996,"body":"incentive model pushes a certain behavior."},{"startTime":4885.631,"endTime":4888.991,"body":"The case for evil has taken"},{"startTime":4885.631,"endTime":4888.991,"body":"over rather than the case"},{"startTime":4888.991,"endTime":4890.401,"body":"for good propagating forward."},{"startTime":4890.401,"endTime":4893.311,"body":"Like that it's, that is, that is"},{"startTime":4890.401,"endTime":4893.311,"body":"the way that that has happened."},{"startTime":4893.311,"endTime":4895.081,"body":"So I like to rip on JIRA."},{"startTime":4895.581,"endTime":4898.851,"body":"My, my real feeling is if"},{"startTime":4895.581,"endTime":4898.851,"body":"you keep it simple, there are"},{"startTime":4898.856,"endTime":4899.631,"body":"certain things you could do."},{"startTime":4899.636,"endTime":4901.401,"body":"There are certain plugins"},{"startTime":4899.636,"endTime":4901.401,"body":"that actually are worth it."},{"startTime":4902.081,"endTime":4905.991,"body":"I, on one hand, can't bring myself"},{"startTime":4902.081,"endTime":4905.991,"body":"to pay any money to, to Atlassian"},{"startTime":4906.081,"endTime":4906.891,"body":"in any way, shape or form."},{"startTime":4906.891,"endTime":4910.131,"body":"So I work around plugins, but if"},{"startTime":4906.891,"endTime":4910.131,"body":"you keep it simple,  you can do it."},{"startTime":4910.191,"endTime":4910.941,"body":"Can do the job."},{"startTime":4911.031,"endTime":4912.771,"body":"If you keep it simple,"},{"startTime":4911.031,"endTime":4912.771,"body":"you can just his Trello."},{"startTime":4913.491,"endTime":4917.661,"body":"No, I hate Trello more than I hate"},{"startTime":4913.491,"endTime":4917.661,"body":"Jira . People might be surprised by that."},{"startTime":4917.661,"endTime":4917.951,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4918.451,"endTime":4918.741,"body":"Cool."},{"startTime":4919.161,"endTime":4919.581,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4919.821,"endTime":4923.691,"body":"Well, let us know what you think about"},{"startTime":4919.821,"endTime":4923.691,"body":"this and any other topics you wanna talk"},{"startTime":4923.691,"endTime":4928.061,"body":"about or you want us to talk about that's"},{"startTime":4923.691,"endTime":4928.061,"body":"a bad summary, but that's where we're at."},{"startTime":4928.091,"endTime":4929.741,"body":"I don't think, I don't think"},{"startTime":4928.091,"endTime":4929.741,"body":"there's a better summary."},{"startTime":4929.741,"endTime":4930.371,"body":"Quite honestly."},{"startTime":4930.371,"endTime":4932.766,"body":"I like give, send us your certification."},{"startTime":4932.766,"endTime":4933.246,"body":"Hate mail."},{"startTime":4934.056,"endTime":4934.956,"body":"Yeah, you could do that."},{"startTime":4934.961,"endTime":4935.556,"body":"Let us know."},{"startTime":4935.616,"endTime":4939.066,"body":"Oh, in subscribe and like,"},{"startTime":4935.616,"endTime":4939.066,"body":"oh, that's that good one."},{"startTime":4939.156,"endTime":4942.786,"body":"Some subs, some ideas on, Hey,"},{"startTime":4939.156,"endTime":4942.786,"body":"what your thoughts are and how"},{"startTime":4943.106,"endTime":4944.616,"body":"they might solve this problem."},{"startTime":4944.616,"endTime":4946.986,"body":"Keep trainers accountable or create."},{"startTime":4946.986,"endTime":4948.016,"body":"So what's the."},{"startTime":4948.751,"endTime":4953.581,"body":"What's the central location to"},{"startTime":4948.751,"endTime":4953.581,"body":"make sure that to bring as far as"},{"startTime":4953.581,"endTime":4957.691,"body":"reviews are concerned to, so that we"},{"startTime":4953.581,"endTime":4957.691,"body":"have an opportunity to go and look"},{"startTime":4957.691,"endTime":4961.801,"body":"and have an, to, to review these"},{"startTime":4957.691,"endTime":4961.801,"body":"trainers in an appropriate manner."},{"startTime":4961.861,"endTime":4961.981,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4961.981,"endTime":4966.421,"body":"That, that's funny that the the,"},{"startTime":4961.981,"endTime":4966.421,"body":"the PO certifications they don't"},{"startTime":4966.421,"endTime":4970.021,"body":"have something as simple as a"},{"startTime":4966.421,"endTime":4970.021,"body":"net promoter score for their POS."},{"startTime":4970.081,"endTime":4973.471,"body":"That's funny that the, they don't"},{"startTime":4970.081,"endTime":4973.471,"body":"the POS POS the irony don't use."},{"startTime":4973.471,"endTime":4973.651,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4973.651,"endTime":4974.671,"body":"The irony of not."},{"startTime":4975.081,"endTime":4975.301,"body":"Yep."}]}