{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":8.229,"body":"I had a remark about  PMs contributing"},{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":8.229,"body":"and involving themselves with the team"},{"startTime":8.319,"endTime":10.21,"body":"to determine the definition of done."},{"startTime":11.558,"endTime":17.078,"body":"Definition of done because from a"},{"startTime":11.558,"endTime":17.078,"body":"technical background, I have, I don't"},{"startTime":17.083,"endTime":19.178,"body":"wanna say strong feelings cause I"},{"startTime":17.083,"endTime":19.178,"body":"don't really have strong feelings."},{"startTime":19.358,"endTime":22.778,"body":"For teams who don't have a definition"},{"startTime":19.358,"endTime":22.778,"body":"of done and they get together and"},{"startTime":22.778,"endTime":26.378,"body":"they form an initial definition"},{"startTime":22.778,"endTime":26.378,"body":"of done that share between teams."},{"startTime":27.608,"endTime":30.308,"body":"I have things that I think should"},{"startTime":27.608,"endTime":30.308,"body":"be in that definition of done"},{"startTime":30.318,"endTime":34.038,"body":"mm-hmm  but you should be part of"},{"startTime":30.318,"endTime":34.038,"body":"that discussion mm-hmm  sure, sure."},{"startTime":34.038,"endTime":38.353,"body":"Mm-hmm  but again, I'm bringing that"},{"startTime":34.038,"endTime":38.353,"body":"from a, from all my experiences."},{"startTime":38.383,"endTime":38.533,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":39.013,"endTime":44.413,"body":"Technical non-technical team member,"},{"startTime":39.013,"endTime":44.413,"body":"scrum master product owner, I'm bringing"},{"startTime":44.563,"endTime":48.717,"body":"my contribution to the definition of"},{"startTime":44.563,"endTime":48.717,"body":"done mm-hmm well, definition of done."},{"startTime":48.877,"endTime":52.757,"body":"I shouldn't have to write in each"},{"startTime":48.877,"endTime":52.757,"body":"story, go to test, go to prod have"},{"startTime":52.762,"endTime":56.152,"body":"the unit tests in each one, like"},{"startTime":52.762,"endTime":56.152,"body":"all that stuff should be a given."},{"startTime":56.262,"endTime":57.912,"body":"I'm not writing any of that"},{"startTime":56.262,"endTime":57.912,"body":"in acceptance criteria."},{"startTime":57.912,"endTime":58.122,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":58.632,"endTime":61.392,"body":"So when we have a discussion"},{"startTime":58.632,"endTime":61.392,"body":"about definition of done,"},{"startTime":61.872,"endTime":63.162,"body":"I'm bringing all that stuff."},{"startTime":63.212,"endTime":65.102,"body":"I mean, since we like to"},{"startTime":63.212,"endTime":65.102,"body":"argue about definition of."},{"startTime":66.482,"endTime":67.052,"body":"On the internet.."},{"startTime":67.442,"endTime":68.102,"body":"Yes, we, yes."},{"startTime":68.292,"endTime":71.262,"body":"there's a real, yeah, that's another"},{"startTime":68.292,"endTime":71.262,"body":"huge, there's a whole podcast that"},{"startTime":71.262,"endTime":74.712,"body":"should, that could, and probably should"},{"startTime":71.262,"endTime":74.712,"body":"be done on definition of done, because"},{"startTime":74.712,"endTime":79.212,"body":"that's another thing that is, there's"},{"startTime":74.712,"endTime":79.212,"body":"so much confusion surrounding that."},{"startTime":79.782,"endTime":83.172,"body":"And I don't necessarily there and"},{"startTime":79.782,"endTime":83.172,"body":"there isn't any one right answer."},{"startTime":83.322,"endTime":87.192,"body":"So there's a lot of different"},{"startTime":83.322,"endTime":87.192,"body":"perspectives and a lot of variables"},{"startTime":87.192,"endTime":88.872,"body":"and a lot of right answer there."},{"startTime":88.872,"endTime":90.942,"body":"Well, there is a, okay,"},{"startTime":88.872,"endTime":90.942,"body":"there's a scrum answer."},{"startTime":92.112,"endTime":97.542,"body":"I think that the box of the definition of"},{"startTime":92.112,"endTime":97.542,"body":"done is fairly straightforward, but what"},{"startTime":97.542,"endTime":101.112,"body":"you put in that box, we can negotiate."},{"startTime":101.742,"endTime":102.792,"body":"This is where I was going."},{"startTime":103.272,"endTime":106.117,"body":"But again, I didn't know how deep I"},{"startTime":103.272,"endTime":106.117,"body":"wanted to get into this discussion, , the"},{"startTime":106.122,"endTime":111.457,"body":"definition of done is a box of what we"},{"startTime":106.122,"endTime":111.457,"body":"all agree across all the teams, what we"},{"startTime":111.457,"endTime":120.422,"body":"all agree is done, but I could easily see"},{"startTime":111.457,"endTime":120.422,"body":"in programs I've been with previously,"},{"startTime":121.142,"endTime":128.342,"body":"the argument that I've observed slash"},{"startTime":121.142,"endTime":128.342,"body":"bid on this topic is you can't add so"},{"startTime":128.342,"endTime":134.912,"body":"much stuff to this so much overhead"},{"startTime":128.342,"endTime":134.912,"body":"that it significantly slows down the"},{"startTime":134.912,"endTime":137.712,"body":"ability to quickly produce work items."},{"startTime":137.892,"endTime":138.102,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":138.102,"endTime":139.147,"body":"It's a trade off right?"},{"startTime":139.152,"endTime":143.407,"body":"So you're gonna impede  flow by"},{"startTime":139.152,"endTime":143.407,"body":"putting in vertically all these things,"},{"startTime":143.797,"endTime":145.867,"body":"but the teams can figure that out."},{"startTime":145.867,"endTime":150.577,"body":"And yeah, the product side of the house"},{"startTime":145.867,"endTime":150.577,"body":"is part the team in this case to figure"},{"startTime":150.577,"endTime":152.677,"body":"out what definition of done really means."},{"startTime":152.677,"endTime":155.012,"body":"Are you done when  at the end of"},{"startTime":152.677,"endTime":155.012,"body":"the sprint, something is shippable"},{"startTime":155.612,"endTime":158.222,"body":"or is it releasable mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":158.432,"endTime":159.452,"body":"There's a distinction there."},{"startTime":159.482,"endTime":163.232,"body":"Mm-hmm  so I always coach"},{"startTime":159.482,"endTime":163.232,"body":"my teams to develop on a"},{"startTime":163.232,"endTime":166.022,"body":"cadence and release on demand."},{"startTime":166.052,"endTime":170.222,"body":"The release part is outside of their"},{"startTime":166.052,"endTime":170.222,"body":"control as such the business can"},{"startTime":170.227,"endTime":173.492,"body":"say, we want to release here and"},{"startTime":170.227,"endTime":173.492,"body":"they should be able to just do it"},{"startTime":173.492,"endTime":175.262,"body":"without going back to the dev teams."},{"startTime":175.312,"endTime":176.182,"body":"Now we're getting this stuff."},{"startTime":176.182,"endTime":180.072,"body":"That's not in the scrum guide and"},{"startTime":176.182,"endTime":180.072,"body":"that I welcome angry tweets on"},{"startTime":180.072,"endTime":186.732,"body":"the internet about like, who is"},{"startTime":180.072,"endTime":186.732,"body":"accountable for  the definition of done."},{"startTime":187.242,"endTime":188.172,"body":"Is it the whole team?"},{"startTime":188.332,"endTime":192.892,"body":"And I ask that because I have been in"},{"startTime":188.332,"endTime":192.892,"body":"the product position to have to defend"},{"startTime":192.897,"endTime":195.562,"body":"the definition of done to the CEO."},{"startTime":195.892,"endTime":200.062,"body":"When he says, how are you calling"},{"startTime":195.892,"endTime":200.062,"body":"this done when it's not in"},{"startTime":200.062,"endTime":201.772,"body":"production and usable by customers?"},{"startTime":202.732,"endTime":203.422,"body":"Well, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":203.532,"endTime":204.172,"body":"I'll repeat this."},{"startTime":204.172,"endTime":209.587,"body":"Like for, like I said, I can't repeat it"},{"startTime":204.172,"endTime":209.587,"body":"exactly verbatim, but it's pretty close."},{"startTime":210.307,"endTime":213.787,"body":"And that is, if there is a definition"},{"startTime":210.307,"endTime":213.787,"body":"of done that has been established"},{"startTime":213.787,"endTime":218.347,"body":"by the organization, that must be"},{"startTime":213.787,"endTime":218.347,"body":"followed minimally by the scrum team."},{"startTime":218.467,"endTime":218.677,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":218.677,"endTime":219.247,"body":"Minimally."},{"startTime":219.247,"endTime":220.897,"body":"Now that's the operative word here."},{"startTime":220.897,"endTime":224.802,"body":"That doesn't mean that you as an"},{"startTime":220.897,"endTime":224.802,"body":"individual scrum team, couldn't"},{"startTime":224.802,"endTime":228.372,"body":"even add some additional things"},{"startTime":224.802,"endTime":228.372,"body":"that were pertinent just to you, but"},{"startTime":228.372,"endTime":232.902,"body":"minimally you, if there is no or no"},{"startTime":228.372,"endTime":232.902,"body":"organizational definition of done"},{"startTime":232.902,"endTime":236.682,"body":"defined, then it is up to the scrum team."},{"startTime":237.102,"endTime":240.042,"body":"It also does mention that there"},{"startTime":237.102,"endTime":240.042,"body":"should be alignment of definition"},{"startTime":240.042,"endTime":242.202,"body":"of done be among multiple teams."},{"startTime":242.207,"endTime":242.292,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":242.622,"endTime":246.192,"body":"But from a scrum perspective, that's,"},{"startTime":242.622,"endTime":246.192,"body":"that's the definition of done, right?"},{"startTime":246.252,"endTime":248.682,"body":"Is there one already"},{"startTime":246.252,"endTime":248.682,"body":"developed by the organization?"},{"startTime":248.832,"endTime":250.752,"body":"If so, are we following that minimally?"},{"startTime":250.992,"endTime":251.382,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":251.752,"endTime":256.282,"body":"if not, we create one as a scrum"},{"startTime":251.752,"endTime":256.282,"body":"team and it must be shared across"},{"startTime":256.642,"endTime":259.732,"body":"minimally across our scrum teams."},{"startTime":260.242,"endTime":265.732,"body":", As a product owner, someone who doesn't"},{"startTime":260.242,"endTime":265.732,"body":"have technical experience definition of"},{"startTime":265.732,"endTime":271.982,"body":"done the first thing that comes to mind"},{"startTime":265.732,"endTime":271.982,"body":"is that definition of done may have some"},{"startTime":271.982,"endTime":279.402,"body":"kind of essential, I don't know, feedback"},{"startTime":271.982,"endTime":279.402,"body":"loop requirement or something that I have"},{"startTime":279.402,"endTime":287.232,"body":"been able to make sure to collect, put"},{"startTime":279.402,"endTime":287.232,"body":"in front of a customer and get approval."},{"startTime":287.592,"endTime":291.932,"body":"And so not sure if that's part of the"},{"startTime":287.592,"endTime":291.932,"body":"definition of done or if that's just"},{"startTime":291.937,"endTime":295.502,"body":"part of my job or if that needs to be"},{"startTime":291.937,"endTime":295.502,"body":"called out in the definition of done."},{"startTime":295.502,"endTime":300.272,"body":"But as you said, if it's not kind"},{"startTime":295.502,"endTime":300.272,"body":"of written down then the ex, so the"},{"startTime":300.272,"endTime":305.042,"body":"whole point from my perspective of the"},{"startTime":300.272,"endTime":305.042,"body":"definition of done is to very clearly"},{"startTime":305.282,"endTime":308.192,"body":"set the expectations across the board."},{"startTime":308.282,"endTime":308.372,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":308.402,"endTime":314.432,"body":"Of the minimal that we need to complete to"},{"startTime":308.402,"endTime":314.432,"body":"say that we have an increment completed."},{"startTime":314.542,"endTime":315.532,"body":"I think you just nailed it."},{"startTime":315.532,"endTime":316.822,"body":"These are the expectations."},{"startTime":317.032,"endTime":321.682,"body":"Like if we have a welding business,"},{"startTime":317.032,"endTime":321.682,"body":"mm-hmm,   I gotta wear my dark goggles."},{"startTime":321.682,"endTime":323.542,"body":"I gotta wear my ear protection."},{"startTime":323.782,"endTime":325.702,"body":"I gotta wear my gloves while I'm welding."},{"startTime":325.707,"endTime":327.592,"body":"Mm-hmm  like, I don't need you"},{"startTime":325.707,"endTime":327.592,"body":"to write all that in the story."},{"startTime":327.652,"endTime":328.852,"body":"I know I need to do all that."},{"startTime":328.942,"endTime":329.092,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":329.122,"endTime":330.742,"body":"That's a given for every welding."},{"startTime":331.732,"endTime":334.792,"body":"that I start mm-hmm  I'm"},{"startTime":331.732,"endTime":334.792,"body":"gonna do all that."},{"startTime":334.852,"endTime":336.832,"body":"There's probably maintenance"},{"startTime":334.852,"endTime":336.832,"body":"on the welding machine."},{"startTime":336.837,"endTime":338.302,"body":"That's that's, that's not even."},{"startTime":338.332,"endTime":341.182,"body":"Yeah, but that, that stuff's"},{"startTime":338.332,"endTime":341.182,"body":"not even negotiable, right."},{"startTime":341.272,"endTime":344.862,"body":"On like, well, well for this project,  I"},{"startTime":341.272,"endTime":344.862,"body":"don't need you to put on your safety"},{"startTime":344.862,"endTime":346.002,"body":"gear and all that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":347.032,"endTime":349.972,"body":"Again, like back in the day, I used"},{"startTime":347.032,"endTime":349.972,"body":"to work with a, a heavy equipment"},{"startTime":350.002,"endTime":351.112,"body":"when I was in the air force."},{"startTime":351.232,"endTime":353.182,"body":"And I think you had to wear gloves."},{"startTime":353.302,"endTime":354.622,"body":"You had to wear steel toed  boots."},{"startTime":354.742,"endTime":356.972,"body":"You had to wear ear protection,"},{"startTime":354.742,"endTime":356.972,"body":"double ear protection."},{"startTime":356.977,"endTime":358.592,"body":"Actually you had to wear"},{"startTime":356.977,"endTime":358.592,"body":"double ear protection."},{"startTime":358.772,"endTime":362.072,"body":"You could never pull up to an aircraft"},{"startTime":358.772,"endTime":362.072,"body":"without, at a minimum of a two man"},{"startTime":362.077,"endTime":366.212,"body":"crew mm-hmm  like, there were these"},{"startTime":362.077,"endTime":366.212,"body":"definition of done mm-hmm  requirements."},{"startTime":366.692,"endTime":372.182,"body":"And, and I should point out,"},{"startTime":366.692,"endTime":372.182,"body":"you could break those reque."},{"startTime":372.182,"endTime":375.092,"body":"You could choose to be like,"},{"startTime":372.182,"endTime":375.092,"body":"oh, I don't need air protection."},{"startTime":375.422,"endTime":378.962,"body":"The, the plane's off the aircraft's"},{"startTime":375.422,"endTime":378.962,"body":"off, it's off on the, on the ramp."},{"startTime":379.292,"endTime":381.067,"body":"And the engines are not running."},{"startTime":381.367,"endTime":382.267,"body":"I don't need air protection."},{"startTime":382.317,"endTime":386.757,"body":"You could do that certainly, but"},{"startTime":382.317,"endTime":386.757,"body":"you are breaking the definition"},{"startTime":386.757,"endTime":387.867,"body":"of done on that project."},{"startTime":388.107,"endTime":388.287,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":388.317,"endTime":390.357,"body":"You know, that you're breaking"},{"startTime":388.317,"endTime":390.357,"body":"the definition of done."},{"startTime":390.437,"endTime":393.352,"body":"Mm-hmm  , for whatever reason, maybe"},{"startTime":390.437,"endTime":393.352,"body":"you didn't wanna, maybe you were already"},{"startTime":393.352,"endTime":395.182,"body":"from one plane to another in transit."},{"startTime":395.182,"endTime":397.522,"body":"You didn't wanna go back to the"},{"startTime":395.182,"endTime":397.522,"body":"office and get earplugs or whatever."},{"startTime":397.732,"endTime":399.052,"body":"Mm-hmm  okay, cool."},{"startTime":399.052,"endTime":402.442,"body":"You're making the, but you"},{"startTime":399.052,"endTime":402.442,"body":"know that you are breaking the"},{"startTime":402.442,"endTime":404.482,"body":"agreed on definition of done."},{"startTime":404.752,"endTime":404.902,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":404.907,"endTime":406.192,"body":"There's no ambiguity there."},{"startTime":406.252,"endTime":407.152,"body":"There's no ambiguity."},{"startTime":407.157,"endTime":408.012,"body":"You're breaking definition."},{"startTime":408.012,"endTime":409.282,"body":"Know you're doing it when you do it."},{"startTime":409.332,"endTime":412.582,"body":"So my, my question here is"},{"startTime":409.332,"endTime":412.582,"body":"are you doing that because you"},{"startTime":412.582,"endTime":414.412,"body":"feel pressure in the organiz."},{"startTime":414.832,"endTime":420.292,"body":"To compete, produce, meet"},{"startTime":414.832,"endTime":420.292,"body":"deadlines, meet deadlines."},{"startTime":420.292,"endTime":420.293,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":420.412,"endTime":420.772,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":421.192,"endTime":426.112,"body":"Are you doing that because of"},{"startTime":421.192,"endTime":426.112,"body":"pressures or are you doing that for"},{"startTime":426.117,"endTime":428.002,"body":"some like, why, why are you breaking?"},{"startTime":428.122,"endTime":431.752,"body":"So, so definit and because I've been"},{"startTime":428.122,"endTime":431.752,"body":"in organizations with the definition of"},{"startTime":431.757,"endTime":436.552,"body":"done, I've been in organization where"},{"startTime":431.757,"endTime":436.552,"body":"they write stories for like deploy it to"},{"startTime":436.557,"endTime":439.252,"body":"test mm-hmm,  deploy it to production."},{"startTime":439.282,"endTime":441.112,"body":"And those are stories."},{"startTime":441.142,"endTime":441.322,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":441.622,"endTime":442.612,"body":"I'm like, that's not a story."},{"startTime":442.617,"endTime":447.632,"body":"I, as a product owner would come in,"},{"startTime":442.617,"endTime":447.632,"body":"I've been in the position I come into"},{"startTime":447.637,"endTime":451.372,"body":"the organization and I'm like deploy to"},{"startTime":447.637,"endTime":451.372,"body":"test is not like, that's not a story."},{"startTime":452.612,"endTime":456.002,"body":"Now, if you're gonna talk about"},{"startTime":452.612,"endTime":456.002,"body":"a story with subtasks, do the"},{"startTime":456.002,"endTime":460.082,"body":"change, test a change, deploy"},{"startTime":456.002,"endTime":460.082,"body":"it to test, deploy it to prod."},{"startTime":460.412,"endTime":463.952,"body":"I can get down with those subtasks"},{"startTime":460.412,"endTime":463.952,"body":"mm-hmm  but the business value"},{"startTime":464.132,"endTime":466.082,"body":"mm-hmm  encompasses all of that."},{"startTime":466.082,"endTime":471.842,"body":"And until it's in production, no,"},{"startTime":466.082,"endTime":471.842,"body":"you as a team cannot claim the"},{"startTime":471.902,"endTime":474.162,"body":"value, the business value, right."},{"startTime":474.612,"endTime":478.002,"body":"Until you are done, mm-hmm"},{"startTime":474.612,"endTime":478.002,"body":"with all these activities."},{"startTime":478.152,"endTime":481.937,"body":"And I may not specify every single one of"},{"startTime":478.152,"endTime":481.937,"body":"those activities as acceptance criteria,"},{"startTime":482.267,"endTime":484.157,"body":"cuz I think of the acceptance criteria."},{"startTime":484.157,"endTime":485.627,"body":"This goes back to our acceptance criteria."},{"startTime":485.627,"endTime":485.957,"body":"Absolute."},{"startTime":486.407,"endTime":491.117,"body":"I think of the acceptance"},{"startTime":486.407,"endTime":491.117,"body":"criteria as a checklist for me,"},{"startTime":492.767,"endTime":496.517,"body":"the user of the software, I was"},{"startTime":492.767,"endTime":496.517,"body":"gonna say customer stakeholder."},{"startTime":496.697,"endTime":497.597,"body":"I could use a lot of terms."},{"startTime":498.227,"endTime":499.277,"body":"Me the user of the."},{"startTime":500.057,"endTime":505.517,"body":"To, to, to just check off each one as"},{"startTime":500.057,"endTime":505.517,"body":"I go down the user story in a demo to"},{"startTime":505.517,"endTime":513.287,"body":"say, oh, number a, or number B number,"},{"startTime":505.517,"endTime":513.287,"body":"number a mm-hmm  item, a item B item C."},{"startTime":513.617,"endTime":514.037,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":514.037,"endTime":514.607,"body":"It's done."},{"startTime":514.787,"endTime":515.177,"body":"Mm-hmm  yeah."},{"startTime":515.177,"endTime":518.507,"body":"I mean, indeed, that's one of the"},{"startTime":515.177,"endTime":518.507,"body":"formats of the acceptance criteria."},{"startTime":518.537,"endTime":521.387,"body":"Verify that and then B, C, D, right?"},{"startTime":521.387,"endTime":521.477,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":521.477,"endTime":522.947,"body":"So you could just check those off."},{"startTime":523.427,"endTime":523.847,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":523.847,"endTime":524.447,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":524.867,"endTime":529.147,"body":"But  again, the point of this topic and"},{"startTime":524.867,"endTime":529.147,"body":"the reason I bring this up and segue us"},{"startTime":529.152,"endTime":534.267,"body":"into this whole other podcast is , the"},{"startTime":529.152,"endTime":534.267,"body":"establishment of your definition of done."},{"startTime":535.677,"endTime":540.987,"body":"For me, it's a much deeper"},{"startTime":535.677,"endTime":540.987,"body":"conversation as a PM with a technical"},{"startTime":540.987,"endTime":545.337,"body":"background, then it might be for a"},{"startTime":540.987,"endTime":545.337,"body":"PM with a non-technical background."},{"startTime":546.147,"endTime":550.257,"body":"I, and I realize the arguing point against"},{"startTime":546.147,"endTime":550.257,"body":"that immediately is like, yeah, it is."},{"startTime":550.257,"endTime":552.477,"body":"Unless your team is all supporting."},{"startTime":552.717,"endTime":555.117,"body":"If your team is supporting"},{"startTime":552.717,"endTime":555.117,"body":"all the different things,"},{"startTime":555.477,"endTime":556.587,"body":"then maybe that's not true."},{"startTime":557.697,"endTime":558.207,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":558.267,"endTime":558.507,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":558.507,"endTime":561.237,"body":"I mean, that, that's pretty much it"},{"startTime":558.507,"endTime":561.237,"body":"you've summarized it right there."},{"startTime":561.597,"endTime":561.807,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":561.867,"endTime":565.887,"body":"Again, assuming your team is not, is not"},{"startTime":561.867,"endTime":565.887,"body":"staffed by completely by junior developers"},{"startTime":565.887,"endTime":567.357,"body":"or offshore developers who just don't."},{"startTime":568.257,"endTime":570.477,"body":"They don't want to add more work,"},{"startTime":568.257,"endTime":570.477,"body":"so they're not gonna contribute."},{"startTime":570.507,"endTime":573.447,"body":"Mm-hmm just doing,"},{"startTime":570.507,"endTime":573.447,"body":"doing what's prescribed."},{"startTime":573.447,"endTime":577.437,"body":"So if you're, if your model is one of a"},{"startTime":573.447,"endTime":577.437,"body":"prescription model, you won't get that."},{"startTime":577.437,"endTime":577.617,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":577.827,"endTime":580.557,"body":"They're just gonna say, this is"},{"startTime":577.827,"endTime":580.557,"body":"what I, you tell me to do this."},{"startTime":580.557,"endTime":581.097,"body":"I'll do that."},{"startTime":581.107,"endTime":581.547,"body":"And that's it."},{"startTime":581.547,"endTime":581.967,"body":"Mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":581.972,"endTime":583.197,"body":"Do the bare minimum, right."},{"startTime":583.202,"endTime":586.617,"body":"Mm-hmm  but there, there are people"},{"startTime":583.202,"endTime":586.617,"body":"out there with that, for sure."},{"startTime":586.797,"endTime":587.397,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":587.607,"endTime":589.647,"body":"So you said something about incentives."},{"startTime":589.647,"endTime":591.687,"body":"So what would, why, why"},{"startTime":589.647,"endTime":591.687,"body":"would somebody do that?"},{"startTime":591.717,"endTime":595.827,"body":"I think the military example you"},{"startTime":591.717,"endTime":595.827,"body":"gave was a as a good one because it"},{"startTime":595.832,"endTime":604.647,"body":"aligns with our teams and our teams"},{"startTime":595.832,"endTime":604.647,"body":"are inclusive of if we're using scrum"},{"startTime":604.647,"endTime":610.347,"body":"of our scrum teams and as a team, we"},{"startTime":604.647,"endTime":610.347,"body":"succeed together and we fail together."},{"startTime":610.587,"endTime":616.167,"body":"So if we have defined our expectations"},{"startTime":610.587,"endTime":616.167,"body":"and the definition of done to include"},{"startTime":616.377,"endTime":620.187,"body":"these things, and we have someone"},{"startTime":616.377,"endTime":620.187,"body":"who's decided not to wear their"},{"startTime":620.187,"endTime":625.587,"body":"earplugs, their failure becomes not an"},{"startTime":620.187,"endTime":625.587,"body":"individual failure, but a team failure."},{"startTime":626.097,"endTime":628.107,"body":"So then now, okay."},{"startTime":628.452,"endTime":630.852,"body":"What dig into that rationale."},{"startTime":630.852,"endTime":634.152,"body":"We just, some have somebody"},{"startTime":630.852,"endTime":634.152,"body":"who's like sh screw it, you know?"},{"startTime":634.252,"endTime":636.382,"body":"Or do we have a shortage in supplies?"},{"startTime":636.442,"endTime":640.532,"body":"You know, do we have a scrum master that"},{"startTime":636.442,"endTime":640.532,"body":"needs to kind of, alleviate that, that"},{"startTime":640.537,"endTime":644.192,"body":"impediment and make sure that we have the"},{"startTime":640.537,"endTime":644.192,"body":"tools and the supplies and the that we"},{"startTime":644.192,"endTime":646.782,"body":"need is I can give you more examples too."},{"startTime":646.782,"endTime":651.152,"body":"And then I can give you more another"},{"startTime":646.782,"endTime":651.152,"body":"example that I remember before I left"},{"startTime":651.622,"endTime":656.802,"body":"a base one time, one of my last nights"},{"startTime":651.622,"endTime":656.802,"body":"on the flight line, as like the senior"},{"startTime":656.802,"endTime":660.702,"body":"person, like, I didn't really need junior"},{"startTime":656.802,"endTime":660.702,"body":"people to work with, cuz I basically"},{"startTime":660.702,"endTime":662.802,"body":"could do everything by myself oh yeah."},{"startTime":662.802,"endTime":664.302,"body":"In 20 some in 20 something."},{"startTime":664.662,"endTime":664.812,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":664.872,"endTime":665.382,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":665.382,"endTime":666.192,"body":"You knew it all."},{"startTime":666.192,"endTime":666.252,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":666.482,"endTime":667.122,"body":"I knew how to do everything."},{"startTime":667.122,"endTime":667.512,"body":"Of course."},{"startTime":667.512,"endTime":667.632,"body":"Gotcha."},{"startTime":667.842,"endTime":668.122,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":668.122,"endTime":668.922,"body":"I've never had an accident."},{"startTime":668.922,"endTime":669.072,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":669.162,"endTime":669.442,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":669.822,"endTime":674.387,"body":"Invincible mm-hmm  , so basically"},{"startTime":669.822,"endTime":674.387,"body":"like you're a, the minimum you need to"},{"startTime":674.417,"endTime":678.227,"body":"service an aircraft is a two man crew"},{"startTime":674.417,"endTime":678.227,"body":"because you always need a spotter."},{"startTime":678.227,"endTime":681.947,"body":"You need someone to, to, to put"},{"startTime":678.227,"endTime":681.947,"body":"a chalk under the vehicle's tire."},{"startTime":681.947,"endTime":683.957,"body":"Maybe you don't have a collision with"},{"startTime":681.947,"endTime":683.957,"body":"the aircraft and stuff like that."},{"startTime":684.007,"endTime":687.082,"body":"A two-man crew is an absolute and,"},{"startTime":684.007,"endTime":687.082,"body":"and , what I mean absolute minimum,"},{"startTime":687.082,"endTime":688.792,"body":"it, that is the absolute minimum."},{"startTime":689.722,"endTime":693.037,"body":"And you could service"},{"startTime":689.722,"endTime":693.037,"body":"an aircraft by yourself."},{"startTime":694.027,"endTime":701.902,"body":"However, if you had an accident and"},{"startTime":694.027,"endTime":701.902,"body":"you were by yourself, You everyone"},{"startTime":701.902,"endTime":704.512,"body":"would immediately, there would be"},{"startTime":701.902,"endTime":704.512,"body":"no escaping that you are breaking"},{"startTime":704.512,"endTime":706.192,"body":"a definition of done, basically."},{"startTime":706.822,"endTime":712.462,"body":"And you being a senior person,"},{"startTime":706.822,"endTime":712.462,"body":"you should know better."},{"startTime":712.522,"endTime":718.162,"body":"Mm-hmm  so there is no getting out of"},{"startTime":712.522,"endTime":718.162,"body":"that discussion of, Hey, I took shortcut"},{"startTime":718.222,"endTime":722.332,"body":"like there, there there's there's no other"},{"startTime":718.222,"endTime":722.332,"body":"excuse you could apply in that situation."},{"startTime":722.452,"endTime":725.272,"body":"Other than I took a"},{"startTime":722.452,"endTime":725.272,"body":"shortcut and made a mistake."},{"startTime":725.272,"endTime":725.782,"body":"Mm-hmm  yeah."},{"startTime":726.892,"endTime":728.032,"body":"There's no way to get out of it."},{"startTime":728.152,"endTime":730.942,"body":"Even with two people, you can make a"},{"startTime":728.152,"endTime":730.942,"body":"mistake and then, then you'll have a"},{"startTime":730.947,"endTime":733.132,"body":"discussion of like, well, what happened?"},{"startTime":733.132,"endTime":734.392,"body":"Why did this mistake happen?"},{"startTime":734.812,"endTime":737.502,"body":"There was not communication"},{"startTime":734.812,"endTime":737.502,"body":"between the two people, whatever"},{"startTime":737.502,"endTime":738.912,"body":"misread hand signs, whatever."},{"startTime":739.872,"endTime":743.502,"body":"There's some wiggle room"},{"startTime":739.872,"endTime":743.502,"body":"in that because you're not"},{"startTime":743.502,"endTime":744.912,"body":"breaking the definition of done."},{"startTime":745.272,"endTime":745.452,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":745.502,"endTime":746.762,"body":"There's an agreement."},{"startTime":747.752,"endTime":752.232,"body":"and you are following the agreement"},{"startTime":747.752,"endTime":752.232,"body":"mm-hmm  versus there's an agreement"},{"startTime":752.452,"endTime":754.272,"body":"and you're going against the agreement."},{"startTime":754.712,"endTime":761.372,"body":"And another point you are a part"},{"startTime":754.712,"endTime":761.372,"body":"of inputting and putting your input"},{"startTime":761.377,"endTime":765.652,"body":"to, and agreeing to that agreement,"},{"startTime":761.377,"endTime":765.652,"body":"even in an established organization"},{"startTime":765.652,"endTime":769.312,"body":"definition of done again, that's"},{"startTime":765.652,"endTime":769.312,"body":"minimal, that's the minimal."},{"startTime":769.522,"endTime":773.692,"body":"So if you have additional information"},{"startTime":769.522,"endTime":773.692,"body":"or if you have additional, so you're"},{"startTime":773.692,"endTime":776.842,"body":"going through retrospective and"},{"startTime":773.692,"endTime":776.842,"body":"you're going like what, why are"},{"startTime":776.842,"endTime":778.492,"body":"we writing this in every story?"},{"startTime":778.522,"endTime":780.532,"body":"Why isn't this as part of"},{"startTime":778.522,"endTime":780.532,"body":"our definition of done?"},{"startTime":780.532,"endTime":784.162,"body":"So we should be revisiting this"},{"startTime":780.532,"endTime":784.162,"body":"very, fairly frequently and our"},{"startTime":784.162,"endTime":789.472,"body":"team should made a part of this"},{"startTime":784.162,"endTime":789.472,"body":"that makes them accountable."},{"startTime":789.472,"endTime":792.152,"body":"It makes them have ownership over it."},{"startTime":793.202,"endTime":796.842,"body":"So so I would, I would say that that"},{"startTime":793.202,"endTime":796.842,"body":"might be a little bit different than"},{"startTime":796.842,"endTime":800.052,"body":"the military in the sense that you're"},{"startTime":796.842,"endTime":800.052,"body":"probably not so much a part of that,"},{"startTime":800.057,"endTime":802.212,"body":"that creating that definition of done."},{"startTime":802.692,"endTime":803.502,"body":"They have ownership."},{"startTime":803.502,"endTime":803.832,"body":"They can."},{"startTime":803.832,"endTime":807.672,"body":"So what doesn't work, they have the"},{"startTime":803.832,"endTime":807.672,"body":"opportunity to speak up and change."},{"startTime":807.772,"endTime":811.132,"body":"that gets harder in some"},{"startTime":807.772,"endTime":811.132,"body":"hierarchical institutions."},{"startTime":811.132,"endTime":814.697,"body":"I mean, maybe even the military I don't"},{"startTime":811.132,"endTime":814.697,"body":"know how much influence you would have"},{"startTime":815.267,"endTime":819.737,"body":"trying to change the, the procedures"},{"startTime":815.267,"endTime":819.737,"body":"and the processes that are there."},{"startTime":819.827,"endTime":822.617,"body":"Well, you, well here, here's"},{"startTime":819.827,"endTime":822.617,"body":"the thing about definition?"},{"startTime":822.622,"endTime":823.997,"body":"Well, this is a great example."},{"startTime":824.777,"endTime":828.077,"body":"It's a bad example cause it's not"},{"startTime":824.777,"endTime":828.077,"body":"software development, but I also"},{"startTime":828.077,"endTime":831.107,"body":"think there's an advantage because"},{"startTime":828.077,"endTime":831.107,"body":"it's not software development."},{"startTime":831.497,"endTime":833.777,"body":", development team could be applied"},{"startTime":831.497,"endTime":833.777,"body":"to anything, I guess that that's,"},{"startTime":833.777,"endTime":835.907,"body":"that's, that's the other thing"},{"startTime":833.777,"endTime":835.907,"body":"that you're kind of leaving out."},{"startTime":835.907,"endTime":836.507,"body":"It's like sure."},{"startTime":836.507,"endTime":841.577,"body":"Development team, like you're servicing"},{"startTime":836.507,"endTime":841.577,"body":"an aircraft, you're a development team."},{"startTime":841.582,"endTime":843.947,"body":"You're not writing software, but"},{"startTime":841.582,"endTime":843.947,"body":"you're, you're contributing to a goal."},{"startTime":844.127,"endTime":847.337,"body":"Mm-hmm the definition of done"},{"startTime":844.127,"endTime":847.337,"body":"in that example is the bare"},{"startTime":847.337,"endTime":851.027,"body":"minimum of prerequisites for"},{"startTime":847.337,"endTime":851.027,"body":"you to call the job done."},{"startTime":851.477,"endTime":855.977,"body":"Your team could decide to add more to that"},{"startTime":851.477,"endTime":855.977,"body":"mm-hmm  and it could stay inside of your"},{"startTime":855.977,"endTime":860.177,"body":"team cuz the, like the other teams might"},{"startTime":855.977,"endTime":860.177,"body":"not adopt the best practices of your team."},{"startTime":860.737,"endTime":865.367,"body":"Mm-hmm  sure, but eventually over"},{"startTime":860.737,"endTime":865.367,"body":"time as your, and this, this certainly"},{"startTime":865.367,"endTime":870.227,"body":"happened eventually over time as the"},{"startTime":865.367,"endTime":870.227,"body":"teams that service Aircrafts they come"},{"startTime":870.232,"endTime":873.577,"body":"in and you find out , well, when we"},{"startTime":870.232,"endTime":873.577,"body":"have these three people together as a"},{"startTime":873.577,"endTime":879.037,"body":"crew for the night, they get their AF"},{"startTime":873.577,"endTime":879.037,"body":"aircraft done in , 75% of the time of"},{"startTime":879.042,"endTime":881.677,"body":"any other team, what are they doing?"},{"startTime":881.677,"endTime":881.947,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":882.217,"endTime":884.557,"body":"Are they taking shortcuts or"},{"startTime":882.217,"endTime":884.557,"body":"are they just more efficient?"},{"startTime":884.617,"endTime":885.247,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":885.247,"endTime":885.848,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":885.848,"endTime":885.849,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":885.854,"endTime":887.347,"body":"And as, as a supervisor."},{"startTime":887.662,"endTime":891.172,"body":"You should be asking that you should"},{"startTime":887.662,"endTime":891.172,"body":"say, are they taking shortcuts?"},{"startTime":891.172,"endTime":891.232,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":891.452,"endTime":893.492,"body":"And the, that question,"},{"startTime":891.452,"endTime":893.492,"body":"are they taking shortcuts?"},{"startTime":893.612,"endTime":895.382,"body":"You should be able to look"},{"startTime":893.612,"endTime":895.382,"body":"at their safety record."},{"startTime":896.102,"endTime":896.552,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":896.612,"endTime":900.872,"body":"And, and like, in the air force, we"},{"startTime":896.612,"endTime":900.872,"body":"didn't really have like a net promoter"},{"startTime":900.872,"endTime":903.932,"body":"score, but like in software development,"},{"startTime":900.872,"endTime":903.932,"body":"you hopefully with your stakeholders and"},{"startTime":903.932,"endTime":907.532,"body":"your stakeholder teams, or if you service"},{"startTime":903.932,"endTime":907.532,"body":"internal teams, you'll have a net promoter"},{"startTime":907.532,"endTime":909.342,"body":"score with the people that you work with."},{"startTime":909.432,"endTime":909.642,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":909.762,"endTime":915.592,"body":"To say, Hey like this, this specific"},{"startTime":909.762,"endTime":915.592,"body":"development team, their velocity's"},{"startTime":915.592,"endTime":919.157,"body":"super high, their, contribute their"},{"startTime":915.592,"endTime":919.157,"body":"contributions to the program are"},{"startTime":919.162,"endTime":923.057,"body":"really their, everything we ask 'em"},{"startTime":919.162,"endTime":923.057,"body":"to do they get done, but are people"},{"startTime":923.057,"endTime":924.677,"body":"satisfied with their solutions?"},{"startTime":924.682,"endTime":926.567,"body":"Mm-hmm  you should have"},{"startTime":924.682,"endTime":926.567,"body":"some kind of spec for that."},{"startTime":926.567,"endTime":930.497,"body":"Mm-hmm  the equivalent, the, the,"},{"startTime":926.567,"endTime":930.497,"body":"the aircraft loading, unloading"},{"startTime":930.547,"endTime":933.637,"body":"example equivalent of that is let"},{"startTime":930.547,"endTime":933.637,"body":"me look at their safety record."},{"startTime":933.847,"endTime":935.407,"body":"Let me look at their on time departures."},{"startTime":935.412,"endTime":940.237,"body":"Cuz if you cuz in this example of"},{"startTime":935.412,"endTime":940.237,"body":"what I'm talking about, the goal"},{"startTime":940.477,"endTime":944.427,"body":"is to de departing aircraft and"},{"startTime":940.477,"endTime":944.427,"body":"arriving aircraft are handled."},{"startTime":945.597,"endTime":949.307,"body":"Arriving aircraft, the air crews at"},{"startTime":945.597,"endTime":949.307,"body":"the end of their end of their air"},{"startTime":949.307,"endTime":951.557,"body":"day, end of their hours, whatever,"},{"startTime":949.307,"endTime":951.557,"body":"they're kind of like truckers."},{"startTime":951.557,"endTime":953.687,"body":"They have certain hours that"},{"startTime":951.557,"endTime":953.687,"body":"they're allowed to be on the plane."},{"startTime":954.167,"endTime":957.137,"body":"And when they arrive on station, they're"},{"startTime":954.167,"endTime":957.137,"body":"just looking to get off the aircraft,"},{"startTime":957.147,"endTime":962.847,"body":"they're just whining and , I mean, like"},{"startTime":957.147,"endTime":962.847,"body":"they've been flying, so like you can't"},{"startTime":962.847,"endTime":966.897,"body":"say that they're just whiny about it"},{"startTime":962.847,"endTime":966.897,"body":"they're just what was it a snively?"},{"startTime":966.917,"endTime":968.357,"body":"Is that the that's snively?"},{"startTime":968.537,"endTime":968.917,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":969.007,"endTime":970.797,"body":"Let's a little snively about it."},{"startTime":971.137,"endTime":973.887,"body":"Um, but I mean, you have to have"},{"startTime":971.137,"endTime":973.887,"body":"some empathy for your users."},{"startTime":973.907,"endTime":976.667,"body":"Like they've been, they've been"},{"startTime":973.907,"endTime":976.667,"body":"in the aircraft potentially up to"},{"startTime":976.877,"endTime":980.707,"body":"12 hours flying maybe if they flew"},{"startTime":976.877,"endTime":980.707,"body":"from Atlanta or whatever, to Japan,"},{"startTime":980.947,"endTime":984.407,"body":"they've been flying 12, 13, 14"},{"startTime":980.947,"endTime":984.407,"body":"hours, have some empathy for them."},{"startTime":984.627,"endTime":986.422,"body":"So you look at the safety"},{"startTime":984.627,"endTime":986.422,"body":"record of the ground crew."},{"startTime":986.422,"endTime":987.742,"body":"How many accidents did they have?"},{"startTime":987.952,"endTime":988.252,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":988.252,"endTime":990.052,"body":"How many incident reports?"},{"startTime":990.052,"endTime":990.382,"body":"Incidents."},{"startTime":990.382,"endTime":990.502,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":990.532,"endTime":990.922,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":991.172,"endTime":994.262,"body":"injuries, accidents,"},{"startTime":991.172,"endTime":994.262,"body":"collisions, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":994.502,"endTime":998.312,"body":"But also you're looking at how many"},{"startTime":994.502,"endTime":998.312,"body":"times did they delay, were they blamed"},{"startTime":998.312,"endTime":1003.082,"body":"for the delay of the aircraft or, or"},{"startTime":998.312,"endTime":1003.082,"body":"did the crew complain that the crew"},{"startTime":1003.082,"endTime":1006.202,"body":"was taking too long or whatever,"},{"startTime":1003.082,"endTime":1006.202,"body":"if it was an arrival cause arrivals"},{"startTime":1006.202,"endTime":1007.432,"body":"and departures handled differently."},{"startTime":1007.802,"endTime":1009.422,"body":"but you kinda look at all those together."},{"startTime":1009.752,"endTime":1014.732,"body":"And again, if you have good stats,"},{"startTime":1009.752,"endTime":1014.732,"body":"if you've instrumented well, right."},{"startTime":1014.732,"endTime":1017.432,"body":"The product people deal"},{"startTime":1014.732,"endTime":1017.432,"body":"with that all the time."},{"startTime":1017.432,"endTime":1019.742,"body":"Software's not instrumented,"},{"startTime":1017.432,"endTime":1019.742,"body":"but if you've instrumented."},{"startTime":1021.137,"endTime":1024.807,"body":"and, or you are doing good surveys with"},{"startTime":1021.137,"endTime":1024.807,"body":"thumbs up, thumbs down, net promoter"},{"startTime":1024.807,"endTime":1026.127,"body":"score big for your basic stuff."},{"startTime":1026.577,"endTime":1033.477,"body":"You can start taking in that data of"},{"startTime":1026.577,"endTime":1033.477,"body":"which teams are servicing the business."},{"startTime":1033.577,"endTime":1036.097,"body":"The best I don't know about"},{"startTime":1033.577,"endTime":1036.097,"body":"mm-hmm  no, that's, it's the"},{"startTime":1036.097,"endTime":1037.687,"body":"greater service we try to get to."},{"startTime":1037.687,"endTime":1037.927,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1037.927,"endTime":1038.527,"body":"So yes."},{"startTime":1038.557,"endTime":1042.247,"body":"Which team has, what level"},{"startTime":1038.557,"endTime":1042.247,"body":"or grade of service, right."},{"startTime":1042.307,"endTime":1043.897,"body":"That that's the term they use."},{"startTime":1044.497,"endTime":1044.737,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1045.127,"endTime":1050.227,"body":"This scrum guide is super light on how the"},{"startTime":1045.127,"endTime":1050.227,"body":"definition does crafted because I could"},{"startTime":1050.227,"endTime":1054.577,"body":"easily see like what we're talking about"},{"startTime":1050.227,"endTime":1054.577,"body":"now of like let me go to the best teams."},{"startTime":1055.417,"endTime":1057.607,"body":"Let's pivot back hardcore"},{"startTime":1055.417,"endTime":1057.607,"body":"to software development."},{"startTime":1058.147,"endTime":1059.797,"body":"Let me pull the best teams."},{"startTime":1059.957,"endTime":1063.167,"body":"The people that hit their velocity"},{"startTime":1059.957,"endTime":1063.167,"body":"have a high net promoter score, the"},{"startTime":1063.172,"endTime":1065.717,"body":"backlogs in order, all, all, all"},{"startTime":1063.172,"endTime":1065.717,"body":"the things that we would talk about."},{"startTime":1065.777,"endTime":1068.147,"body":"Just, just like real black"},{"startTime":1065.777,"endTime":1068.147,"body":"and white type of stuff."},{"startTime":1068.197,"endTime":1069.907,"body":"You could argue team to team, right."},{"startTime":1069.907,"endTime":1071.137,"body":"But we're not gonna do that for a second."},{"startTime":1072.637,"endTime":1076.497,"body":"Who would be the person to"},{"startTime":1072.637,"endTime":1076.497,"body":"say , well, these are the top"},{"startTime":1076.497,"endTime":1077.897,"body":"tier teams in the organiz."},{"startTime":1078.852,"endTime":1080.982,"body":". So what are they doing"},{"startTime":1078.852,"endTime":1080.982,"body":"in their definition?"},{"startTime":1080.982,"endTime":1083.862,"body":"Do they have a more"},{"startTime":1080.982,"endTime":1083.862,"body":"expansive definition of done?"},{"startTime":1084.252,"endTime":1087.487,"body":"Maybe they've, they're doing the minimum"},{"startTime":1084.252,"endTime":1087.487,"body":"definition done that we've set across"},{"startTime":1087.492,"endTime":1090.697,"body":"all the teams in the program, but they"},{"startTime":1087.492,"endTime":1090.697,"body":"were also doing all these other things."},{"startTime":1090.887,"endTime":1095.682,"body":"Their definition of done includes good"},{"startTime":1090.887,"endTime":1095.682,"body":"unit tests and automation and monitoring"},{"startTime":1095.682,"endTime":1099.672,"body":"and learning and production for the things"},{"startTime":1095.682,"endTime":1099.672,"body":"that they push out, like how, and the"},{"startTime":1099.672,"endTime":1101.022,"body":"other teams aren't doing that, right?"},{"startTime":1101.022,"endTime":1102.552,"body":"The other teams are doing manual testing."},{"startTime":1102.732,"endTime":1107.127,"body":"The other teams are pushing to this"},{"startTime":1102.732,"endTime":1107.127,"body":"environment or their WIP is, more items"},{"startTime":1107.132,"endTime":1110.987,"body":"or their code coverage is less or yeah,"},{"startTime":1107.132,"endTime":1110.987,"body":"the code coverages or they're like their"},{"startTime":1110.987,"endTime":1115.637,"body":"cycle time and their lead time, like"},{"startTime":1110.987,"endTime":1115.637,"body":"are, is longer for the other teams."},{"startTime":1115.642,"endTime":1115.697,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1115.697,"endTime":1120.077,"body":"As opposed to these, like, what"},{"startTime":1115.697,"endTime":1120.077,"body":"are these teams doing and why are"},{"startTime":1120.077,"endTime":1121.397,"body":"they so far ahead of the other?"},{"startTime":1121.507,"endTime":1126.757,"body":"If your definition of done is across"},{"startTime":1121.507,"endTime":1126.757,"body":"several teams, who is the person"},{"startTime":1126.762,"endTime":1132.217,"body":"that prompts them to append or"},{"startTime":1126.762,"endTime":1132.217,"body":"update their definition of done?"},{"startTime":1132.277,"endTime":1133.747,"body":"Is it just one person on one team?"},{"startTime":1133.747,"endTime":1135.787,"body":"And then they kind of try"},{"startTime":1133.747,"endTime":1135.787,"body":"to get the community going."},{"startTime":1135.787,"endTime":1137.287,"body":"Cause that seems like an uphill battle."},{"startTime":1137.737,"endTime":1138.877,"body":"It is an uphill battle."},{"startTime":1139.792,"endTime":1140.542,"body":"it should be somewhere."},{"startTime":1140.542,"endTime":1144.022,"body":"I mean, higher than that, I mean,"},{"startTime":1140.542,"endTime":1144.022,"body":"I, as a co I did, I disagree really."},{"startTime":1144.022,"endTime":1147.262,"body":"So unless you are, unless you"},{"startTime":1144.022,"endTime":1147.262,"body":"have a, unless you have a, an"},{"startTime":1147.262,"endTime":1151.762,"body":"organizational definition of done"},{"startTime":1147.262,"endTime":1151.762,"body":"established it, this is my opinion."},{"startTime":1152.182,"endTime":1152.482,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1153.022,"endTime":1158.452,"body":"I believe that the scrum team"},{"startTime":1153.022,"endTime":1158.452,"body":"should work together to define"},{"startTime":1158.452,"endTime":1159.532,"body":"their definition of done."},{"startTime":1159.532,"endTime":1163.772,"body":"That should include the scrum"},{"startTime":1159.532,"endTime":1163.772,"body":"master, certainly facilitating , and"},{"startTime":1163.772,"endTime":1168.002,"body":"understanding what that definition"},{"startTime":1163.772,"endTime":1168.002,"body":"of done is the product owner putting"},{"startTime":1168.062,"endTime":1171.187,"body":"in the, and, injecting that empathy."},{"startTime":1171.607,"endTime":1177.617,"body":", and the organizational marketing sales,"},{"startTime":1171.607,"endTime":1177.617,"body":"those type of things, but certainly"},{"startTime":1177.617,"endTime":1180.887,"body":"centering around the user experience."},{"startTime":1180.887,"endTime":1187.417,"body":"along with the development"},{"startTime":1180.887,"endTime":1187.417,"body":"understanding of their individual"},{"startTime":1188.897,"endTime":1192.377,"body":"they're very individualized process."},{"startTime":1192.382,"endTime":1198.777,"body":"So for instance, in the manner in which"},{"startTime":1192.382,"endTime":1198.777,"body":"they push software into production."},{"startTime":1198.777,"endTime":1200.877,"body":"So so those are all gonna be different."},{"startTime":1200.877,"endTime":1204.297,"body":"So each definition of done is very unique."},{"startTime":1204.387,"endTime":1204.447,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1204.877,"endTime":1206.037,"body":"I think that."},{"startTime":1206.937,"endTime":1210.417,"body":"Establishing a minimum definition of"},{"startTime":1206.937,"endTime":1210.417,"body":"done should be done by the scrum team."},{"startTime":1210.417,"endTime":1214.917,"body":"If there isn't one organizationally,"},{"startTime":1210.417,"endTime":1214.917,"body":"additionally, if there are multiple"},{"startTime":1214.917,"endTime":1221.907,"body":"scrum teams, I believe that those"},{"startTime":1214.917,"endTime":1221.907,"body":"scrum teams and dependent, we"},{"startTime":1221.907,"endTime":1226.537,"body":"generally don't have scrum teams that"},{"startTime":1221.907,"endTime":1226.537,"body":"are boiler plate of one, another."},{"startTime":1226.537,"endTime":1231.157,"body":"Each of them are doing different"},{"startTime":1226.537,"endTime":1231.157,"body":"things for different reasons, with"},{"startTime":1231.157,"endTime":1236.437,"body":"different goals and different metrics,"},{"startTime":1231.157,"endTime":1236.437,"body":"which means it makes sense for them"},{"startTime":1236.437,"endTime":1241.897,"body":"as a team to potentially augment the"},{"startTime":1236.437,"endTime":1241.897,"body":"minimum definition of done that has"},{"startTime":1241.897,"endTime":1243.667,"body":"been established for the scrum team."},{"startTime":1243.667,"endTime":1246.667,"body":"So that's my opinion on that one."},{"startTime":1246.877,"endTime":1250.777,"body":"The other thing I just wanted"},{"startTime":1246.877,"endTime":1250.777,"body":"to mention is there's so many"},{"startTime":1250.897,"endTime":1253.417,"body":"freaking variables, right?"},{"startTime":1253.417,"endTime":1256.327,"body":"So when you were talking about your"},{"startTime":1253.417,"endTime":1256.327,"body":"example with the military and the"},{"startTime":1256.327,"endTime":1260.167,"body":"planes and you know, saying, well,"},{"startTime":1256.327,"endTime":1260.167,"body":"we have this really high performing"},{"startTime":1260.447,"endTime":1265.547,"body":"team that, all right, we are getting"},{"startTime":1260.447,"endTime":1265.547,"body":"great metrics out of across the board."},{"startTime":1266.532,"endTime":1270.192,"body":"But that immediately made, made"},{"startTime":1266.532,"endTime":1270.192,"body":"me go back to think about context,"},{"startTime":1270.462,"endTime":1272.022,"body":"the Hawthorne effect, like yeah."},{"startTime":1272.072,"endTime":1273.187,"body":"Are you familiar with that one?"},{"startTime":1273.187,"endTime":1274.117,"body":"I don't know for our readers."},{"startTime":1274.117,"endTime":1277.777,"body":"So the Hawthorne effect was a study"},{"startTime":1274.117,"endTime":1277.777,"body":"that they did and they basically"},{"startTime":1277.777,"endTime":1279.617,"body":"said, Hey what could we do?"},{"startTime":1280.267,"endTime":1281.407,"body":"And I'm paraphrasing here."},{"startTime":1281.407,"endTime":1283.147,"body":"I don't remember exactly, but it was done."},{"startTime":1283.267,"endTime":1283.597,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":1283.597,"endTime":1285.277,"body":"It like 1920s."},{"startTime":1285.277,"endTime":1285.697,"body":"It was a long time ago."},{"startTime":1285.697,"endTime":1285.777,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1285.777,"endTime":1286.507,"body":"It's like the 1920s."},{"startTime":1286.687,"endTime":1286.837,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1286.867,"endTime":1292.117,"body":"So they did an experiment and they're"},{"startTime":1286.867,"endTime":1292.117,"body":"trying to get manufacturing of, I"},{"startTime":1292.117,"endTime":1293.617,"body":"don't even remember what it was up."},{"startTime":1293.827,"endTime":1298.217,"body":"So they hypothesized that maybe"},{"startTime":1293.827,"endTime":1298.217,"body":"lighting lighting may have caused"},{"startTime":1298.217,"endTime":1303.867,"body":"an improvement in improving the"},{"startTime":1298.217,"endTime":1303.867,"body":"manufacturing,  the manufacturing process"},{"startTime":1303.867,"endTime":1308.607,"body":"and their, their throughput essentially"},{"startTime":1303.867,"endTime":1308.607,"body":", and what they found was yeah."},{"startTime":1308.607,"endTime":1311.157,"body":"What they found was so they"},{"startTime":1308.607,"endTime":1311.157,"body":"did it, they did experiment."},{"startTime":1311.157,"endTime":1314.247,"body":"And so they did lighting changes"},{"startTime":1311.157,"endTime":1314.247,"body":"and so they increased the light."},{"startTime":1314.607,"endTime":1314.817,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1314.817,"endTime":1317.097,"body":"And when they increased the"},{"startTime":1314.817,"endTime":1317.097,"body":"light production went up."},{"startTime":1317.767,"endTime":1318.057,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1318.672,"endTime":1319.032,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1319.212,"endTime":1322.422,"body":"So then they were like, all right,"},{"startTime":1319.212,"endTime":1322.422,"body":"well, let's, let's, let's do"},{"startTime":1322.427,"endTime":1323.922,"body":"a little more experimentation."},{"startTime":1323.922,"endTime":1325.602,"body":"And so they decreased the light."},{"startTime":1326.022,"endTime":1327.552,"body":"And so what happened?"},{"startTime":1327.552,"endTime":1328.692,"body":"The production went up."},{"startTime":1328.782,"endTime":1332.742,"body":"And so they actually did, they did,"},{"startTime":1328.782,"endTime":1332.742,"body":"there's a picture I saw of actually these,"},{"startTime":1332.802,"endTime":1337.392,"body":"these workers that are standing in long"},{"startTime":1332.802,"endTime":1337.392,"body":"lines, some of them had like buckets"},{"startTime":1337.422,"endTime":1339.942,"body":"over their heads so that they could"},{"startTime":1337.422,"endTime":1339.942,"body":"actually have some of them had light and"},{"startTime":1339.942,"endTime":1343.962,"body":"some of them didn't and you know, what"},{"startTime":1339.942,"endTime":1343.962,"body":"happened, production went up and what"},{"startTime":1343.962,"endTime":1349.872,"body":"they realized was the Hawthorne effect"},{"startTime":1343.962,"endTime":1349.872,"body":"was an increase in production because"},{"startTime":1349.877,"endTime":1351.822,"body":"they knew they were being observed."},{"startTime":1352.242,"endTime":1352.662,"body":"Oh no."},{"startTime":1352.992,"endTime":1353.832,"body":"So yes."},{"startTime":1353.922,"endTime":1358.362,"body":"As long as they knew they were being"},{"startTime":1353.922,"endTime":1358.362,"body":"observed, their production was going up."},{"startTime":1358.362,"endTime":1363.912,"body":"So my point is that sometimes it's"},{"startTime":1358.362,"endTime":1363.912,"body":"not just so easily understood."},{"startTime":1363.962,"endTime":1365.582,"body":"There's a lot of variables."},{"startTime":1366.012,"endTime":1371.502,"body":"a lot of players, a lot of"},{"startTime":1366.012,"endTime":1371.502,"body":"metrics and takes a lot of, yeah."},{"startTime":1371.532,"endTime":1374.952,"body":"So anyway, watch them"},{"startTime":1371.532,"endTime":1374.952,"body":"every step of the way."},{"startTime":1374.957,"endTime":1377.562,"body":"That's a, that's a very, that's"},{"startTime":1374.957,"endTime":1377.562,"body":"a very passive, aggressive way"},{"startTime":1377.562,"endTime":1379.092,"body":"of picking productivity go up."},{"startTime":1379.782,"endTime":1380.562,"body":"Just point that out."},{"startTime":1380.692,"endTime":1383.422,"body":"So when you're being measured on,"},{"startTime":1380.692,"endTime":1383.422,"body":"basically the widgets that you"},{"startTime":1383.427,"endTime":1387.472,"body":"put through, as long as you're"},{"startTime":1383.427,"endTime":1387.472,"body":"being watched and , measured."},{"startTime":1388.027,"endTime":1391.957,"body":"Actively being watched, you're going"},{"startTime":1388.027,"endTime":1391.957,"body":"to do better and better and better."},{"startTime":1391.987,"endTime":1392.107,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1392.417,"endTime":1397.427,"body":"so my point is, Hey, I, I, I don't know"},{"startTime":1392.417,"endTime":1397.427,"body":"from that team's perspective, I think it"},{"startTime":1397.427,"endTime":1402.257,"body":"would, I would love to have been on that"},{"startTime":1397.427,"endTime":1402.257,"body":"aircraft carrier to be like, Hmm, what's"},{"startTime":1402.262,"endTime":1404.207,"body":"causing this  and it would be, yeah."},{"startTime":1404.207,"endTime":1407.267,"body":"So, and, and I would be delving"},{"startTime":1404.207,"endTime":1407.267,"body":"potentially into some more."},{"startTime":1407.807,"endTime":1408.047,"body":"Hmm."},{"startTime":1408.137,"endTime":1410.627,"body":"What else is going, what's"},{"startTime":1408.137,"endTime":1410.627,"body":"different about this team?"},{"startTime":1410.627,"endTime":1414.067,"body":"What's uh, well, I'm like, I'm just"},{"startTime":1410.627,"endTime":1414.067,"body":"wondering, like, because again, there's"},{"startTime":1414.067,"endTime":1418.867,"body":"not a lot of like, again, the scrum"},{"startTime":1414.067,"endTime":1418.867,"body":"guy's just like, do a definition of done."},{"startTime":1418.927,"endTime":1424.827,"body":"If there is one, just do one  and"},{"startTime":1418.927,"endTime":1424.827,"body":"follow it minimally  minimally follow."},{"startTime":1425.007,"endTime":1425.187,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1425.247,"endTime":1426.657,"body":"The bare, the bare minimum effort."},{"startTime":1426.717,"endTime":1431.037,"body":"But like, like the point of me bringing"},{"startTime":1426.717,"endTime":1431.037,"body":"this up is like, if there is a definition"},{"startTime":1431.037,"endTime":1435.677,"body":"of done and there are teams that are kind"},{"startTime":1431.037,"endTime":1435.677,"body":"of playing with it and figuring out if we"},{"startTime":1435.682,"endTime":1438.977,"body":"do some other adjustments, we get better"},{"startTime":1435.682,"endTime":1438.977,"body":"quality or better results or whatever."},{"startTime":1438.977,"endTime":1442.097,"body":"Like what, what is your assuming?"},{"startTime":1442.097,"endTime":1443.777,"body":"You have more than one team mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":1443.777,"endTime":1446.597,"body":"Cause that's, if it's"},{"startTime":1443.777,"endTime":1446.597,"body":"just one team it's right."},{"startTime":1446.597,"endTime":1447.767,"body":"There's no reason to talk about it."},{"startTime":1447.772,"endTime":1448.487,"body":"It's super easy."},{"startTime":1449.507,"endTime":1453.257,"body":"Again, assuming you have more than one"},{"startTime":1449.507,"endTime":1453.257,"body":"team or more than one product owner who"},{"startTime":1453.257,"endTime":1456.132,"body":"has their own team each product owner"},{"startTime":1453.257,"endTime":1456.132,"body":"has like two teams or whatever, and"},{"startTime":1456.132,"endTime":1457.842,"body":"you have a, a whole program of team."},{"startTime":1457.842,"endTime":1459.522,"body":"You have eight teams or whatever."},{"startTime":1459.612,"endTime":1462.582,"body":"Mm-hmm, your definition of done"},{"startTime":1459.612,"endTime":1462.582,"body":"is share between all the teams."},{"startTime":1463.152,"endTime":1469.577,"body":"How do you amend that later to say,"},{"startTime":1463.152,"endTime":1469.577,"body":"Hey, when we run our tests through some"},{"startTime":1469.577,"endTime":1475.837,"body":"kind of front end integration automation"},{"startTime":1469.577,"endTime":1475.837,"body":"that this other team has done with 10%"},{"startTime":1475.897,"endTime":1481.207,"body":"of what they own, they have much higher"},{"startTime":1475.897,"endTime":1481.207,"body":"customer satisfaction or whatever."},{"startTime":1481.267,"endTime":1485.917,"body":"We should do that for all the teams and"},{"startTime":1481.267,"endTime":1485.917,"body":"append it to our definition done rather"},{"startTime":1485.917,"endTime":1490.412,"body":"than having all four product managers"},{"startTime":1485.917,"endTime":1490.412,"body":"or product owners in the program, write"},{"startTime":1490.412,"endTime":1492.122,"body":"it into their stories or whatever."},{"startTime":1492.122,"endTime":1496.442,"body":"Like we just want to do it program wide,"},{"startTime":1492.122,"endTime":1496.442,"body":"is it development, leadership decision?"},{"startTime":1496.442,"endTime":1498.242,"body":"Is it product leadership decision?"},{"startTime":1498.482,"endTime":1501.152,"body":"Is it all the teams just kind of"},{"startTime":1498.482,"endTime":1501.152,"body":"talking to each other and deciding"},{"startTime":1501.152,"endTime":1502.892,"body":"it can be as simple as that."},{"startTime":1502.892,"endTime":1503.192,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1503.192,"endTime":1504.662,"body":"But that doesn't happen that often."},{"startTime":1504.662,"endTime":1508.892,"body":"So it's usually we're"},{"startTime":1504.662,"endTime":1508.892,"body":"talking about multiple teams."},{"startTime":1508.952,"endTime":1509.222,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1509.492,"endTime":1512.312,"body":"And typically, although not always, right."},{"startTime":1512.312,"endTime":1513.872,"body":"There's some sort of scaling involved."},{"startTime":1514.292,"endTime":1519.002,"body":"So depending on the scaling framework"},{"startTime":1514.292,"endTime":1519.002,"body":"of choice in this scenario, it would"},{"startTime":1519.002,"endTime":1521.642,"body":"be the person who is at that level."},{"startTime":1521.642,"endTime":1524.007,"body":"For example, in safe, it might be an RTE."},{"startTime":1524.407,"endTime":1529.937,"body":"In scrum at scale, it might be the"},{"startTime":1524.407,"endTime":1529.937,"body":"chief product owner looking at this"},{"startTime":1530.057,"endTime":1532.127,"body":"in, and then I, I feel like the."},{"startTime":1532.847,"endTime":1536.537,"body":"Circles of the ven diagram are"},{"startTime":1532.847,"endTime":1536.537,"body":"actually closer together in real"},{"startTime":1536.537,"endTime":1538.637,"body":"life than depicted on that diagram."},{"startTime":1538.637,"endTime":1543.887,"body":"So it could be a chief product owner"},{"startTime":1538.637,"endTime":1543.887,"body":"in conjunction with their equivalent"},{"startTime":1543.887,"endTime":1547.607,"body":"on the process side to talk about this"},{"startTime":1543.887,"endTime":1547.607,"body":"and say, how do we align the teams,"},{"startTime":1547.612,"endTime":1551.692,"body":"get them together for a bit and talk"},{"startTime":1547.612,"endTime":1551.692,"body":"about commonalities and differences and"},{"startTime":1551.692,"endTime":1556.672,"body":"come up with one version that can be"},{"startTime":1551.692,"endTime":1556.672,"body":"perhaps ratified across the two teams."},{"startTime":1556.677,"endTime":1559.077,"body":"Let me ask the same"},{"startTime":1556.677,"endTime":1559.077,"body":"question in a different way."},{"startTime":1559.197,"endTime":1561.537,"body":"Hoping they get a different"},{"startTime":1559.197,"endTime":1561.537,"body":"answer and hopefully I'll get the"},{"startTime":1561.537,"endTime":1563.097,"body":"same answer in a different way."},{"startTime":1563.487,"endTime":1564.837,"body":"I don't even know what I'm asking anymore."},{"startTime":1565.047,"endTime":1567.407,"body":"Hopefully they get the same"},{"startTime":1565.047,"endTime":1567.407,"body":"passive aggressive answer."},{"startTime":1568.227,"endTime":1568.917,"body":"oh man,"},{"startTime":1568.917,"endTime":1574.252,"body":"what if you are the first product"},{"startTime":1568.917,"endTime":1574.252,"body":"owner slash manager at an organization"},{"startTime":1574.432,"endTime":1578.022,"body":"and you have, let's say you have two"},{"startTime":1574.432,"endTime":1578.022,"body":"development teams and your company's"},{"startTime":1578.022,"endTime":1581.922,"body":"grown to a point where they bring in"},{"startTime":1578.022,"endTime":1581.922,"body":"a product manager for the first time"},{"startTime":1582.612,"endTime":1584.382,"body":"and a scrum master for the first time."},{"startTime":1584.622,"endTime":1589.682,"body":"So now you have like the full blown"},{"startTime":1584.622,"endTime":1589.682,"body":"all the prescribed positions, right?"},{"startTime":1590.702,"endTime":1593.702,"body":"the whole prescription   who introduces."},{"startTime":1593.762,"endTime":1595.592,"body":"We need to have a definition"},{"startTime":1593.762,"endTime":1595.592,"body":"done for the first time."},{"startTime":1595.592,"endTime":1597.632,"body":"And then how do you do"},{"startTime":1595.592,"endTime":1597.632,"body":"that with your teams?"},{"startTime":1599.082,"endTime":1601.572,"body":", I think largely it falls"},{"startTime":1599.082,"endTime":1601.572,"body":"on the process side."},{"startTime":1601.632,"endTime":1606.102,"body":"I mean, typically it would be the scrum"},{"startTime":1601.632,"endTime":1606.102,"body":"master or somebody like that to say,"},{"startTime":1606.102,"endTime":1607.692,"body":"Hey guys, how do we know we're done?"},{"startTime":1607.932,"endTime":1608.172,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1608.232,"endTime":1608.592,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1608.802,"endTime":1611.442,"body":"And it starts there,"},{"startTime":1608.802,"endTime":1611.442,"body":"but you set two teams."},{"startTime":1611.502,"endTime":1614.922,"body":"So if you have two teams and you"},{"startTime":1611.502,"endTime":1614.922,"body":"have two different scrum masters,"},{"startTime":1614.922,"endTime":1616.122,"body":"then they have to collaborate."},{"startTime":1616.122,"endTime":1616.332,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1616.482,"endTime":1619.932,"body":"To make sure that they have a"},{"startTime":1616.482,"endTime":1619.932,"body":"common definition of done that"},{"startTime":1619.932,"endTime":1621.432,"body":"goes across those two teams."},{"startTime":1621.482,"endTime":1621.772,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1621.777,"endTime":1622.992,"body":"And you scale up from there."},{"startTime":1622.992,"endTime":1623.052,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1623.512,"endTime":1627.192,"body":"It, it is not an easy thing to do"},{"startTime":1623.512,"endTime":1627.192,"body":"because often the teams would say,"},{"startTime":1627.197,"endTime":1628.662,"body":"well, this doesn't apply to us."},{"startTime":1628.662,"endTime":1628.872,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1628.872,"endTime":1632.082,"body":"Because that team has specific"},{"startTime":1628.872,"endTime":1632.082,"body":"nuanced things they do."},{"startTime":1632.202,"endTime":1632.322,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1632.352,"endTime":1635.442,"body":"So these, those things don't"},{"startTime":1632.352,"endTime":1635.442,"body":"apply to us and vice versa."},{"startTime":1635.472,"endTime":1635.682,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1635.772,"endTime":1635.932,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1635.932,"endTime":1639.372,"body":"So you kind of have to go across the board"},{"startTime":1635.932,"endTime":1639.372,"body":"and say, let's just raise it up a bit."},{"startTime":1639.402,"endTime":1639.612,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1639.612,"endTime":1643.242,"body":"If you're doing mobile apps and one like,"},{"startTime":1639.612,"endTime":1643.242,"body":"like one team web app and mobile app, one"},{"startTime":1643.242,"endTime":1647.022,"body":"team's mobile developers, one team's web,"},{"startTime":1643.242,"endTime":1647.022,"body":"like one team goes to the app stores for"},{"startTime":1647.022,"endTime":1649.602,"body":"approval and the other team doesn't like,"},{"startTime":1647.022,"endTime":1649.602,"body":"well, I don't need that in my definition."},{"startTime":1649.842,"endTime":1650.262,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1650.262,"endTime":1652.752,"body":"Like, I mean, maybe you don't"},{"startTime":1650.262,"endTime":1652.752,"body":"need your definition done, but"},{"startTime":1652.752,"endTime":1656.142,"body":"I kind of think if you have two"},{"startTime":1652.752,"endTime":1656.142,"body":"teams Ishe has a scrum master."},{"startTime":1656.562,"endTime":1659.632,"body":"I kind of think if you're gonna"},{"startTime":1656.562,"endTime":1659.632,"body":"charge a scrum masters, but being"},{"startTime":1659.632,"endTime":1663.832,"body":"the process owners, here we go"},{"startTime":1659.632,"endTime":1663.832,"body":"back to a theme on the podcast."},{"startTime":1664.192,"endTime":1668.872,"body":", They should see the need to be like,"},{"startTime":1664.192,"endTime":1668.872,"body":"Hey, our definition of done is out date."},{"startTime":1669.112,"endTime":1671.302,"body":"Our definition of done doesn't"},{"startTime":1669.112,"endTime":1671.302,"body":"include these things that"},{"startTime":1671.302,"endTime":1672.442,"body":"people have been asking about."},{"startTime":1672.532,"endTime":1675.352,"body":"They should see the things"},{"startTime":1672.532,"endTime":1675.352,"body":"going on and know they've gotta"},{"startTime":1675.352,"endTime":1679.012,"body":"facilitate a collaborative"},{"startTime":1675.352,"endTime":1679.012,"body":"session between the two teams yep."},{"startTime":1679.222,"endTime":1683.512,"body":"To amend the definition done, or create"},{"startTime":1679.222,"endTime":1683.512,"body":"the definition, done, whatever delete"},{"startTime":1683.517,"endTime":1684.892,"body":"things, what, whatever they need to do."},{"startTime":1685.382,"endTime":1688.142,"body":", but if they don't see that"},{"startTime":1685.382,"endTime":1688.142,"body":"themselves, there's nothing wrong"},{"startTime":1688.142,"endTime":1690.152,"body":"with somebody product anybody."},{"startTime":1690.242,"endTime":1691.682,"body":"Oh, I was gonna say prompting them."},{"startTime":1691.682,"endTime":1694.202,"body":"I was gonna say, if they don't have, like,"},{"startTime":1691.682,"endTime":1694.202,"body":"if the organization doesn't have SCR,"},{"startTime":1694.202,"endTime":1697.382,"body":"like if, oh, there's that someone was"},{"startTime":1694.202,"endTime":1697.382,"body":"just playing the role, playing the role."},{"startTime":1700.012,"endTime":1702.142,"body":"wear hat, wear a hat."},{"startTime":1702.762,"endTime":1704.552,"body":"So I've got couple, a"},{"startTime":1702.762,"endTime":1704.552,"body":"couple of thoughts here."},{"startTime":1704.552,"endTime":1710.872,"body":"So number one, you mentioned something"},{"startTime":1704.552,"endTime":1710.872,"body":"about Hey what happens when you have"},{"startTime":1710.872,"endTime":1715.382,"body":"multiple teams and , so aligning"},{"startTime":1710.872,"endTime":1715.382,"body":"across on a definition of done"},{"startTime":1715.382,"endTime":1716.732,"body":"and then who makes that decision?"},{"startTime":1716.732,"endTime":1720.842,"body":"Is it leadership, whatever it sounded"},{"startTime":1716.732,"endTime":1720.842,"body":"to me that almost at that point, it"},{"startTime":1720.842,"endTime":1724.852,"body":"could be pivoted to  a definition of"},{"startTime":1720.842,"endTime":1724.852,"body":"done that's minimally defined by the"},{"startTime":1724.852,"endTime":1727.732,"body":"organization potentially at that point."},{"startTime":1727.762,"endTime":1730.792,"body":"Now you need to follow that."},{"startTime":1730.792,"endTime":1733.942,"body":"So there's a there's that,"},{"startTime":1730.792,"endTime":1733.942,"body":"that could actually be adopted."},{"startTime":1734.002,"endTime":1734.512,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1734.517,"endTime":1738.322,"body":"So there's that my next thought"},{"startTime":1734.517,"endTime":1738.322,"body":"was we haven't talked about that."},{"startTime":1738.322,"endTime":1739.042,"body":"We haven't talked about it."},{"startTime":1739.042,"endTime":1742.612,"body":"Like again, the program"},{"startTime":1739.042,"endTime":1742.612,"body":"where I was with a CEO who."},{"startTime":1743.272,"endTime":1746.782,"body":"If it's not in production and users"},{"startTime":1743.272,"endTime":1746.782,"body":"can't use it, you can't call it"},{"startTime":1746.782,"endTime":1751.682,"body":"done so dictates or I I've been in"},{"startTime":1746.782,"endTime":1751.682,"body":"programs with a, a development lead."},{"startTime":1751.802,"endTime":1754.332,"body":"Who's like, if you can't deploy it"},{"startTime":1751.802,"endTime":1754.332,"body":"to the environments, if it's not"},{"startTime":1754.337,"endTime":1756.767,"body":"checked in, you can deploy it to"},{"startTime":1754.337,"endTime":1756.767,"body":"whatever environment with a click."},{"startTime":1757.197,"endTime":1761.597,"body":"The, the definition of done for one"},{"startTime":1757.197,"endTime":1761.597,"body":"program was it needs to be releasable"},{"startTime":1762.357,"endTime":1764.457,"body":"with that that program was very advanced."},{"startTime":1764.607,"endTime":1767.037,"body":"It needs to be releasable,"},{"startTime":1764.607,"endTime":1767.037,"body":"one kind of feature flags."},{"startTime":1767.157,"endTime":1769.217,"body":"And it doesn't matter which"},{"startTime":1767.157,"endTime":1769.217,"body":"environments you're released to."},{"startTime":1769.217,"endTime":1772.787,"body":"So stage test production,"},{"startTime":1769.217,"endTime":1772.787,"body":"that doesn't matter."},{"startTime":1772.817,"endTime":1777.087,"body":"That's not in definition done, but in"},{"startTime":1772.817,"endTime":1777.087,"body":"that environment they were super advanced"},{"startTime":1777.087,"endTime":1782.077,"body":"where they had their older releases behind"},{"startTime":1777.087,"endTime":1782.077,"body":"feature flags and they handed off each"},{"startTime":1782.077,"endTime":1784.987,"body":"stage of the release to whoever owned"},{"startTime":1782.077,"endTime":1784.987,"body":"the environment is being released to."},{"startTime":1785.197,"endTime":1788.917,"body":"So the production users would choose"},{"startTime":1785.197,"endTime":1788.917,"body":"to take the, the thing into their"},{"startTime":1788.917,"endTime":1793.027,"body":"environment, but the development team"},{"startTime":1788.917,"endTime":1793.027,"body":"would call it done, cuz as far as they're"},{"startTime":1793.027,"endTime":1798.247,"body":"concerned, it's done and it, and all of"},{"startTime":1793.027,"endTime":1798.247,"body":"their , automated tests have succeeded."},{"startTime":1798.397,"endTime":1801.637,"body":"Their reports came back with zero"},{"startTime":1798.397,"endTime":1801.637,"body":"problems or no problems with the release."},{"startTime":1801.727,"endTime":1805.507,"body":"So the release and all the items"},{"startTime":1801.727,"endTime":1805.507,"body":"were in it that were in, it are done."},{"startTime":1805.507,"endTime":1807.637,"body":"Mm-hmm  but it wasn't in production yet."},{"startTime":1807.937,"endTime":1812.707,"body":"Mm-hmm  because they handed off that"},{"startTime":1807.937,"endTime":1812.707,"body":"responsibility to somebody else to choose"},{"startTime":1812.707,"endTime":1814.237,"body":"when, to take it into their environment."},{"startTime":1814.237,"endTime":1817.327,"body":"Mm-hmm  so basically you had you, I"},{"startTime":1814.237,"endTime":1817.327,"body":"mean, and you could stack up multiple."},{"startTime":1818.092,"endTime":1822.652,"body":"At that company, you could stack up two,"},{"startTime":1818.092,"endTime":1822.652,"body":"three releases to be like oh, oh, you, you"},{"startTime":1822.652,"endTime":1824.292,"body":"have you have three different releases."},{"startTime":1824.442,"endTime":1826.872,"body":"Each one has different features"},{"startTime":1824.442,"endTime":1826.872,"body":"that stack on each other."},{"startTime":1826.992,"endTime":1830.352,"body":"Well, I'm gonna reject the first two"},{"startTime":1826.992,"endTime":1830.352,"body":"releases, take third release, which"},{"startTime":1830.352,"endTime":1835.782,"body":"includes everything from the previous"},{"startTime":1830.352,"endTime":1835.782,"body":"two and not the big UAT  type of thing."},{"startTime":1835.782,"endTime":1835.932,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1836.082,"endTime":1838.122,"body":"And, and, and, and only do one big test."},{"startTime":1838.122,"endTime":1841.722,"body":"Like, so their definition of"},{"startTime":1838.122,"endTime":1841.722,"body":"done was different than other"},{"startTime":1842.082,"endTime":1843.072,"body":"places that I've been at."},{"startTime":1844.902,"endTime":1851.027,"body":"Again, a director of development had"},{"startTime":1844.902,"endTime":1851.027,"body":"influence into that when I was talking"},{"startTime":1851.027,"endTime":1855.287,"body":"about there and another was the,"},{"startTime":1851.027,"endTime":1855.287,"body":"the CEO directly had influence into"},{"startTime":1855.287,"endTime":1858.587,"body":"like, unless it's in production and"},{"startTime":1855.287,"endTime":1858.587,"body":"people can use it, don't call it done."},{"startTime":1858.757,"endTime":1861.927,"body":"So I've been in a bunch of different"},{"startTime":1858.757,"endTime":1861.927,"body":"environments with, with different,"},{"startTime":1862.917,"endTime":1867.627,"body":"different stakeholders who made the"},{"startTime":1862.917,"endTime":1867.627,"body":"call to affect the definition of done."},{"startTime":1867.657,"endTime":1869.217,"body":"Mm-hmm , that's why I'm bringing up."},{"startTime":1869.217,"endTime":1872.667,"body":"That's why I'm kind of hammering on like,"},{"startTime":1869.217,"endTime":1872.667,"body":"well, who, who was involved and how do we"},{"startTime":1872.667,"endTime":1875.962,"body":"know it's time to change and this like,"},{"startTime":1872.667,"endTime":1875.962,"body":"cuz people that listen to this, that,"},{"startTime":1876.082,"endTime":1881.352,"body":"that listen for more than 12 minutes"},{"startTime":1876.082,"endTime":1881.352,"body":"like eventually they'll realize like"},{"startTime":1881.412,"endTime":1882.972,"body":"they will have different experiences."},{"startTime":1883.032,"endTime":1883.392,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1883.397,"endTime":1884.202,"body":"I'm never letting it go."},{"startTime":1885.462,"endTime":1889.222,"body":"Well, just to kind of just try to wrap"},{"startTime":1885.462,"endTime":1889.222,"body":"this up from my perspective, I just wanna"},{"startTime":1889.222,"endTime":1895.702,"body":"say so I, I, I think I gave you the,"},{"startTime":1889.222,"endTime":1895.702,"body":"so my thoughts in regards to being able"},{"startTime":1895.707,"endTime":1900.132,"body":"to take a definition of done, that's"},{"startTime":1895.707,"endTime":1900.132,"body":"been created by your your teams and"},{"startTime":1900.132,"endTime":1905.112,"body":"potentially actually creating that as an"},{"startTime":1900.132,"endTime":1905.112,"body":"organizational standard minimally, right."},{"startTime":1905.117,"endTime":1905.982,"body":"That's an option."},{"startTime":1906.642,"endTime":1912.852,"body":"the other thought I had was to create"},{"startTime":1906.642,"endTime":1912.852,"body":"if you have multiple teams that"},{"startTime":1912.852,"endTime":1917.382,"body":"definition of done, but, and, and I"},{"startTime":1912.852,"endTime":1917.382,"body":"was trying to express this before,"},{"startTime":1917.382,"endTime":1918.822,"body":"but I don't know if I got it across."},{"startTime":1919.312,"endTime":1922.782,"body":"I don't believe that you know,"},{"startTime":1919.312,"endTime":1922.782,"body":"that they need, they do need"},{"startTime":1922.782,"endTime":1924.102,"body":"to follow that minimally."},{"startTime":1924.312,"endTime":1927.672,"body":"But to your example, given earlier where"},{"startTime":1924.312,"endTime":1927.672,"body":"you have a mobile app that doesn't apply"},{"startTime":1927.672,"endTime":1932.892,"body":"to someone else that their definition"},{"startTime":1927.672,"endTime":1932.892,"body":"of done can be different, can include."},{"startTime":1933.532,"endTime":1938.102,"body":"Additional items or things in addition"},{"startTime":1933.532,"endTime":1938.102,"body":"to the things that are minimal."},{"startTime":1938.102,"endTime":1944.542,"body":"So in my mind, you would collaborate"},{"startTime":1938.102,"endTime":1944.542,"body":"across your teams, find the, the cross"},{"startTime":1944.547,"endTime":1946.462,"body":"section of things that apply to all."},{"startTime":1946.732,"endTime":1951.592,"body":"And then, and then in regards to changing,"},{"startTime":1946.732,"endTime":1951.592,"body":"updating and iterating on definition of"},{"startTime":1951.592,"endTime":1955.342,"body":"done, I do believe that the scrum master"},{"startTime":1951.592,"endTime":1955.342,"body":"has a role in, I, I believe that the"},{"startTime":1955.342,"endTime":1957.082,"body":"entire scrum team has a role in that."},{"startTime":1957.262,"endTime":1957.352,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1957.412,"endTime":1965.802,"body":"But I also believe that this, perhaps"},{"startTime":1957.412,"endTime":1965.802,"body":"there needs to be some regular revisit"},{"startTime":1965.802,"endTime":1969.982,"body":"there, there, there really should"},{"startTime":1965.802,"endTime":1969.982,"body":"be some regular revisiting of the"},{"startTime":1969.982,"endTime":1973.912,"body":"definition of ready and definition of"},{"startTime":1969.982,"endTime":1973.912,"body":"done in my, in my personal opinion."},{"startTime":1973.912,"endTime":1978.502,"body":"Number one, but number two, I kind"},{"startTime":1973.912,"endTime":1978.502,"body":"of think this could be self-limiting"},{"startTime":1978.502,"endTime":1983.077,"body":"to use the term you used earlier"},{"startTime":1978.502,"endTime":1983.077,"body":"in our, in our retrospectives."},{"startTime":1983.147,"endTime":1989.772,"body":"So to be deliberate about our definition"},{"startTime":1983.147,"endTime":1989.772,"body":"of done, are we meeting the definition"},{"startTime":1989.772,"endTime":1991.782,"body":"of done which items aren't we meeting?"},{"startTime":1991.812,"endTime":1994.932,"body":"Are there things that we are"},{"startTime":1991.812,"endTime":1994.932,"body":"tasked that we are repetitively"},{"startTime":1994.932,"endTime":1997.602,"body":"putting in that we could actually"},{"startTime":1994.932,"endTime":1997.602,"body":"include in the definition of done?"},{"startTime":1997.607,"endTime":2002.222,"body":"So I think that that might be something"},{"startTime":1997.607,"endTime":2002.222,"body":"as a scrum master that we could be"},{"startTime":2002.252,"endTime":2006.692,"body":"more deliberate about and certainly"},{"startTime":2002.252,"endTime":2006.692,"body":"create a bit of a cadence just to"},{"startTime":2006.692,"endTime":2010.202,"body":"make sure that it's something that we"},{"startTime":2006.692,"endTime":2010.202,"body":"are thinking about fairly regularly."},{"startTime":2010.752,"endTime":2011.592,"body":"I agree with that."},{"startTime":2011.592,"endTime":2013.232,"body":"And I also think another way to."},{"startTime":2014.132,"endTime":2015.542,"body":"Get input into that."},{"startTime":2016.372,"endTime":2019.912,"body":"DOD is what feedback are you"},{"startTime":2016.372,"endTime":2019.912,"body":"getting at your sprint reviews?"},{"startTime":2020.032,"endTime":2024.952,"body":"Mm-hmm  are, are they feeding back to"},{"startTime":2020.032,"endTime":2024.952,"body":"you that something's not quite right?"},{"startTime":2024.957,"endTime":2028.742,"body":"Mm-hmm  maybe it didn't meet your"},{"startTime":2024.957,"endTime":2028.742,"body":"definition of done and, and the individual"},{"startTime":2028.742,"endTime":2032.712,"body":"teams in that example, Brian had"},{"startTime":2028.742,"endTime":2032.712,"body":"mobile app, web app, whatever, right."},{"startTime":2032.982,"endTime":2039.492,"body":"Those individual teams can have"},{"startTime":2032.982,"endTime":2039.492,"body":"definition of done for their own output."},{"startTime":2039.762,"endTime":2040.122,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2040.302,"endTime":2041.022,"body":"That's fine."},{"startTime":2041.502,"endTime":2047.412,"body":"But collectively, as a program group of"},{"startTime":2041.502,"endTime":2047.412,"body":"teams, there needs to be a distinction"},{"startTime":2047.412,"endTime":2052.852,"body":"between what is releasable versus"},{"startTime":2047.412,"endTime":2052.852,"body":"what is shippable mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":2053.062,"endTime":2057.682,"body":"And based on that, they can say"},{"startTime":2053.062,"endTime":2057.682,"body":"we're done, but we're not done done"},{"startTime":2057.832,"endTime":2059.722,"body":"mm-hmm  as a group, not as a team."},{"startTime":2060.892,"endTime":2062.092,"body":"So I think that's true."},{"startTime":2062.092,"endTime":2066.172,"body":"And I think too dependent on I've been in"},{"startTime":2062.092,"endTime":2066.172,"body":"situations where dependent on the team,"},{"startTime":2066.502,"endTime":2073.102,"body":"that the process actually for deployment"},{"startTime":2066.502,"endTime":2073.102,"body":"differs between teams, which means that"},{"startTime":2073.282,"endTime":2078.862,"body":"innately, that definition of done would"},{"startTime":2073.282,"endTime":2078.862,"body":"actually, so the pipeline so  not common,"},{"startTime":2078.862,"endTime":2083.952,"body":"but but I have seen that happen and"},{"startTime":2078.862,"endTime":2083.952,"body":"I, and it was for , some valid reasons"},{"startTime":2083.952,"endTime":2088.112,"body":"and they were going through some, some,"},{"startTime":2083.952,"endTime":2088.112,"body":"definitely some learning curve, but in"},{"startTime":2088.112,"endTime":2092.042,"body":"that case there wouldn't be a hundred"},{"startTime":2088.112,"endTime":2092.042,"body":"percent definition of done that would've"},{"startTime":2092.042,"endTime":2094.802,"body":"met that criteria across the board."},{"startTime":2095.142,"endTime":2096.342,"body":"so anyway, those are my thoughts."},{"startTime":2096.342,"endTime":2101.812,"body":"I mean, it just in regards to figuring"},{"startTime":2096.342,"endTime":2101.812,"body":"out collectively, a definition of"},{"startTime":2101.812,"endTime":2105.172,"body":"done with your teams potentially"},{"startTime":2101.812,"endTime":2105.172,"body":"adopting that organizationally"},{"startTime":2105.702,"endTime":2111.852,"body":"continuously , inspecting and adapting"},{"startTime":2105.702,"endTime":2111.852,"body":"and doing that on a regular basis"},{"startTime":2112.432,"endTime":2114.472,"body":"paying attention to our feedback loop."},{"startTime":2114.562,"endTime":2114.772,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":2115.102,"endTime":2119.332,"body":"Paying attention to in our retros, Hey,"},{"startTime":2115.102,"endTime":2119.332,"body":"are we meeting our definition of done?"},{"startTime":2119.902,"endTime":2127.522,"body":"We, if we aren't, where, why are there"},{"startTime":2119.902,"endTime":2127.522,"body":"other things that are in our tasks that"},{"startTime":2127.822,"endTime":2131.032,"body":"we could be including in the definition"},{"startTime":2127.822,"endTime":2131.032,"body":"of done so that we don't have to repeat"},{"startTime":2131.037,"endTime":2132.802,"body":"them in the task over and over again?"},{"startTime":2133.442,"endTime":2135.212,"body":"so those are some of the"},{"startTime":2133.442,"endTime":2135.212,"body":"questions I might ask."},{"startTime":2135.372,"endTime":2137.292,"body":"Is there an opening for a business risk?"},{"startTime":2137.292,"endTime":2141.842,"body":"And like, like, think about like ear"},{"startTime":2137.292,"endTime":2141.842,"body":"production or always having a two-man"},{"startTime":2141.842,"endTime":2146.912,"body":"career, whatever my, in my examples"},{"startTime":2141.842,"endTime":2146.912,"body":"before, like, can the product inject to"},{"startTime":2146.912,"endTime":2152.462,"body":"be like, Hey, we're willing to accept risk"},{"startTime":2146.912,"endTime":2152.462,"body":"to say that like, all your teams have to."},{"startTime":2153.332,"endTime":2157.442,"body":"Automated tests for all the"},{"startTime":2153.332,"endTime":2157.442,"body":"software, except this one team"},{"startTime":2157.892,"endTime":2161.882,"body":"who's kind of out there, like, is"},{"startTime":2157.892,"endTime":2161.882,"body":"that a, is that even negotiable?"},{"startTime":2161.882,"endTime":2166.412,"body":"Like not, not like that at that point,"},{"startTime":2161.882,"endTime":2166.412,"body":"you are not doing definition of done."},{"startTime":2166.412,"endTime":2169.772,"body":"Like how can you have a team that"},{"startTime":2166.412,"endTime":2169.772,"body":"doesn't comply to the definition of done?"},{"startTime":2169.772,"endTime":2170.102,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2170.222,"endTime":2172.952,"body":"You know, unless you, no,"},{"startTime":2170.222,"endTime":2172.952,"body":"I think everybody to, yeah."},{"startTime":2172.952,"endTime":2175.592,"body":"So everybody complies to the"},{"startTime":2172.952,"endTime":2175.592,"body":"minimal definition of done."},{"startTime":2175.592,"endTime":2180.632,"body":"What I'm saying is there might be"},{"startTime":2175.592,"endTime":2180.632,"body":"additions to the definition of done,"},{"startTime":2180.632,"endTime":2182.792,"body":"which would apply to specific teams."},{"startTime":2182.852,"endTime":2185.672,"body":"So like the mobile example"},{"startTime":2182.852,"endTime":2185.672,"body":"mm-hmm  yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2185.672,"endTime":2186.302,"body":"That makes sense."},{"startTime":2186.902,"endTime":2191.102,"body":"And then one more thing that I just"},{"startTime":2186.902,"endTime":2191.102,"body":"wanted to mention last one, swear."},{"startTime":2192.632,"endTime":2196.742,"body":"This is the reason I believe that"},{"startTime":2192.632,"endTime":2196.742,"body":"it hasn't been further defined or"},{"startTime":2196.832,"endTime":2201.572,"body":"explicitly defined in the scrum"},{"startTime":2196.832,"endTime":2201.572,"body":"guide because it's complicated"},{"startTime":2201.632,"endTime":2203.762,"body":"and there isn't a silver bullet."},{"startTime":2203.822,"endTime":2206.822,"body":"There isn't a checkbox, a"},{"startTime":2203.822,"endTime":2206.822,"body":"checklist, and there isn't a"},{"startTime":2206.822,"endTime":2209.522,"body":"simple solution to this period."},{"startTime":2209.832,"endTime":2216.522,"body":"This is something that needs"},{"startTime":2209.832,"endTime":2216.522,"body":"to,  explored and inspected and"},{"startTime":2217.322,"endTime":2220.172,"body":"tested just experimented adapted."},{"startTime":2221.272,"endTime":2226.562,"body":"I think a lot of it is contextual as"},{"startTime":2221.272,"endTime":2226.562,"body":"well because to come to have this idea"},{"startTime":2226.562,"endTime":2230.822,"body":"that there is a singular definition"},{"startTime":2226.562,"endTime":2230.822,"body":"of done that we can aspire to."},{"startTime":2230.822,"endTime":2234.367,"body":"I think that's a fallacy"},{"startTime":2230.822,"endTime":2234.367,"body":"mm-hmm  it is based on context."},{"startTime":2234.397,"endTime":2235.767,"body":"Mm-hmm  is it yeah."},{"startTime":2235.797,"endTime":2236.847,"body":"It's based on context."},{"startTime":2236.847,"endTime":2237.267,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2237.407,"endTime":2237.697,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2237.697,"endTime":2241.677,"body":"Like, can I, can I not just like, could I"},{"startTime":2237.697,"endTime":2241.677,"body":"just rattle off a boiler plate definition"},{"startTime":2241.677,"endTime":2245.617,"body":"of done and everyone kind of be like, oh"},{"startTime":2241.677,"endTime":2245.617,"body":"yeah, we kind of should be doing that at"},{"startTime":2245.617,"endTime":2250.047,"body":"one company maybe, but you know, but yeah,"},{"startTime":2245.617,"endTime":2250.047,"body":"but like at, at one company, but if one"},{"startTime":2250.047,"endTime":2256.067,"body":"company's definition of done encompasses"},{"startTime":2250.047,"endTime":2256.067,"body":"unit testing, I mean, unit testing's"},{"startTime":2256.067,"endTime":2262.797,"body":"pretty basic to me, if you're not unit"},{"startTime":2256.067,"endTime":2262.797,"body":"testing, we might not even be going full T"},{"startTime":2262.797,"endTime":2265.587,"body":"D D you know, exactly code type of stuff."},{"startTime":2265.587,"endTime":2270.457,"body":"Like, because we know the company's not"},{"startTime":2265.587,"endTime":2270.457,"body":"there yet, but if you were to start a"},{"startTime":2270.457,"endTime":2273.787,"body":"company from scratch and say, like, I"},{"startTime":2270.457,"endTime":2273.787,"body":"would just wanna make sure that whenever"},{"startTime":2273.787,"endTime":2276.217,"body":"we code something, it doesn't break."},{"startTime":2276.217,"endTime":2277.177,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":2277.177,"endTime":2279.037,"body":"The test first, like you, you should."},{"startTime":2279.682,"endTime":2283.492,"body":"Writing your code in a way where"},{"startTime":2279.682,"endTime":2283.492,"body":"it's a, a test first culture."},{"startTime":2283.712,"endTime":2287.402,"body":"If that is not implemented in your,"},{"startTime":2283.712,"endTime":2287.402,"body":"in your definition done from day one,"},{"startTime":2287.732,"endTime":2289.142,"body":"you're gonna have quality problems done."},{"startTime":2289.192,"endTime":2292.252,"body":", is there not a boiler plate"},{"startTime":2289.192,"endTime":2292.252,"body":"we could deploy on day one?"},{"startTime":2292.942,"endTime":2294.772,"body":"But I think you just"},{"startTime":2292.942,"endTime":2294.772,"body":"answered your own question."},{"startTime":2294.777,"endTime":2297.802,"body":"So yes, you can definitely"},{"startTime":2294.777,"endTime":2297.802,"body":"do that in that case."},{"startTime":2297.802,"endTime":2298.462,"body":"That's what I'm saying."},{"startTime":2298.462,"endTime":2299.962,"body":"That's why there's not a universal one."},{"startTime":2299.962,"endTime":2304.342,"body":"If you're not doing T D D, then you don't"},{"startTime":2299.962,"endTime":2304.342,"body":"have this idea of, we should have all the"},{"startTime":2304.342,"endTime":2306.322,"body":"tests written first, they should all pass."},{"startTime":2306.502,"endTime":2307.252,"body":"Cuz then they'll go."},{"startTime":2307.252,"endTime":2308.602,"body":"We're not doing that."},{"startTime":2308.602,"endTime":2309.592,"body":"Yes mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":2310.132,"endTime":2310.822,"body":"Ideally."},{"startTime":2310.822,"endTime":2311.122,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2311.572,"endTime":2315.622,"body":"I would love for that culture to be more"},{"startTime":2311.572,"endTime":2315.622,"body":"prevalent, but I know it's not there."},{"startTime":2315.832,"endTime":2319.547,"body":"I have one final thought so from my"},{"startTime":2315.832,"endTime":2319.547,"body":"understanding and I could be wrong,"},{"startTime":2319.547,"endTime":2326.057,"body":"but my understanding was the rationale"},{"startTime":2319.547,"endTime":2326.057,"body":"for simplifying and changing some of"},{"startTime":2326.062,"endTime":2332.717,"body":"the terminology and the 2020 scrum"},{"startTime":2326.062,"endTime":2332.717,"body":"guide was to open it up to a lot more"},{"startTime":2332.717,"endTime":2336.167,"body":"industries than just software development."},{"startTime":2336.172,"endTime":2336.687,"body":"Yeah, I get that."},{"startTime":2336.747,"endTime":2342.917,"body":"And what that means now is definition of"},{"startTime":2336.747,"endTime":2342.917,"body":"done really does mean really different"},{"startTime":2342.922,"endTime":2345.587,"body":"things to just software development."},{"startTime":2346.867,"endTime":2349.717,"body":"That's where I was gonna going"},{"startTime":2346.867,"endTime":2349.717,"body":"when I say this contextual."},{"startTime":2349.747,"endTime":2349.987,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2349.987,"endTime":2351.697,"body":"It depends on the product"},{"startTime":2349.987,"endTime":2351.697,"body":"you're building, right?"},{"startTime":2351.697,"endTime":2352.027,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2352.307,"endTime":2355.667,"body":"And that's why it can't be"},{"startTime":2352.307,"endTime":2355.667,"body":"defined in the scrum guide."},{"startTime":2356.402,"endTime":2357.272,"body":"It's ephemeral."},{"startTime":2357.752,"endTime":2359.912,"body":"What's your definition"},{"startTime":2357.752,"endTime":2359.912,"body":"of done for this podcast?"},{"startTime":2359.912,"endTime":2360.092,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2360.172,"endTime":2360.862,"body":"It's that we are done."}]}