{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":4.06,"body":"We wanted to have a podcast about"},{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":4.06,"body":"product owners versus product managers."},{"startTime":4.13,"endTime":10.9,"body":"Because when I read job descriptions,"},{"startTime":4.13,"endTime":10.9,"body":"I see a lot of positions where"},{"startTime":10.9,"endTime":12.26,"body":"companies don't know what to call them."},{"startTime":12.704,"endTime":13.454,"body":"mm, right."},{"startTime":13.454,"endTime":15.044,"body":"Should I call it a project manager?"},{"startTime":15.525,"endTime":16.935,"body":"Should I call it a product manager?"},{"startTime":17.054,"endTime":18.495,"body":"Should I call it a product owner?"},{"startTime":18.644,"endTime":19.244,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":19.744,"endTime":23.554,"body":"And I guess we Om, we should start"},{"startTime":19.744,"endTime":23.554,"body":"this podcast by talking about the"},{"startTime":23.884,"endTime":28.894,"body":"Mike Miller definition of product"},{"startTime":23.884,"endTime":28.894,"body":"owner versus product manager."},{"startTime":29.345,"endTime":29.524,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":29.554,"endTime":31.024,"body":"I think that's a good starting point."},{"startTime":31.024,"endTime":35.724,"body":"So Mike Miller and several others, by"},{"startTime":31.024,"endTime":35.724,"body":"the way, subscribe to this viewpoint"},{"startTime":35.724,"endTime":42.724,"body":"that a product manager is responsible"},{"startTime":35.724,"endTime":42.724,"body":"for the profit and loss of that product."},{"startTime":43.504,"endTime":49.514,"body":"So they're more of a strategic,  role"},{"startTime":43.504,"endTime":49.514,"body":"that they play a strategic role and they"},{"startTime":49.519,"endTime":56.474,"body":"are also more outwardly focused, meaning"},{"startTime":49.519,"endTime":56.474,"body":"that they're dealing with the marketplace."},{"startTime":56.504,"endTime":60.384,"body":"Right who are the target customers"},{"startTime":56.504,"endTime":60.384,"body":"and you know, where are they."},{"startTime":60.635,"endTime":65.765,"body":"What are their needs, et cetera, as"},{"startTime":60.635,"endTime":65.765,"body":"opposed to a product owner who, according"},{"startTime":65.765,"endTime":71.894,"body":"to this viewpoint the product owner is"},{"startTime":65.765,"endTime":71.894,"body":"more of an inward focused role, right?"},{"startTime":72.044,"endTime":76.674,"body":"They work with the teams and they"},{"startTime":72.044,"endTime":76.674,"body":"do the they basically coordinate"},{"startTime":77.394,"endTime":82.164,"body":"getting it done to the point where the"},{"startTime":77.394,"endTime":82.164,"body":"product is, what it's supposed to be."},{"startTime":82.494,"endTime":87.264,"body":"So they're not concerned about how"},{"startTime":82.494,"endTime":87.264,"body":"to price it for instance, right."},{"startTime":87.354,"endTime":89.634,"body":"The viability, is it gonna make us money?"},{"startTime":90.084,"endTime":92.334,"body":"Is there a market they're"},{"startTime":90.084,"endTime":92.334,"body":"not concerned about that?"},{"startTime":92.404,"endTime":96.914,"body":"That's the product management type"},{"startTime":92.404,"endTime":96.914,"body":"of role which is more strategic."},{"startTime":96.914,"endTime":100.784,"body":"The other one's somewhat"},{"startTime":96.914,"endTime":100.784,"body":"strategic, largely tactical."},{"startTime":100.854,"endTime":101.094,"body":"I would."},{"startTime":101.564,"endTime":109.604,"body":"Agree with that with some caveats number"},{"startTime":101.564,"endTime":109.604,"body":"one to your point, Brian, I think there"},{"startTime":109.604,"endTime":115.704,"body":"is a whole lot of confusion when we look"},{"startTime":109.604,"endTime":115.704,"body":"for instance at job descriptions and I"},{"startTime":115.709,"endTime":117.804,"body":"almost sometimes think it's intentional."},{"startTime":117.804,"endTime":123.674,"body":"Like there's some intentional ambiguity"},{"startTime":117.804,"endTime":123.674,"body":"so that they can just kind of be able"},{"startTime":123.674,"endTime":128.024,"body":"to, it could be ignorance it could"},{"startTime":123.674,"endTime":128.024,"body":"be ambiguity could be intentional."},{"startTime":128.024,"endTime":131.869,"body":"I'm not sure and maybe a little bit"},{"startTime":128.024,"endTime":131.869,"body":"of all the above and of the above, but"},{"startTime":131.874,"endTime":133.969,"body":"I, I like intentional maliciousness."},{"startTime":133.969,"endTime":135.109,"body":"I like, I like that idea."},{"startTime":135.109,"endTime":135.589,"body":"I mean,"},{"startTime":135.649,"endTime":140.539,"body":"what I can tell you is that"},{"startTime":135.649,"endTime":140.539,"body":"as a product owner, I, when"},{"startTime":140.539,"endTime":143.343,"body":"I am interviewing one of the."},{"startTime":143.733,"endTime":148.593,"body":"Things that I do once I get to the point"},{"startTime":143.733,"endTime":148.593,"body":"of actually interviewing with the actual"},{"startTime":148.593,"endTime":153.453,"body":"hiring manager is to understand their"},{"startTime":148.593,"endTime":153.453,"body":"definition of product owner or product"},{"startTime":153.453,"endTime":157.35,"body":"manager, whatever it is I happen to"},{"startTime":153.453,"endTime":157.35,"body":"be interviewing for, what is it please"},{"startTime":157.35,"endTime":159.79,"body":"define to me, what does that mean to you?"},{"startTime":159.795,"endTime":163.48,"body":"What is a day in life of a product manager"},{"startTime":159.795,"endTime":163.48,"body":"in your organization or a product owner"},{"startTime":163.89,"endTime":165.66,"body":"And that's very telling."},{"startTime":165.665,"endTime":169.62,"body":"And oftentimes what, what I'll"},{"startTime":165.665,"endTime":169.62,"body":"hear is a lot that has to do"},{"startTime":169.625,"endTime":175.29,"body":"more as a project manager, which"},{"startTime":169.625,"endTime":175.29,"body":"I think is very, very common."},{"startTime":175.295,"endTime":178.35,"body":"And I don't necessarily know that"},{"startTime":175.295,"endTime":178.35,"body":"that's intentional or even malicious,"},{"startTime":178.35,"endTime":184.29,"body":"but just maybe some ignorance or"},{"startTime":178.35,"endTime":184.29,"body":"Yeah so anyway, and then, then I'll"},{"startTime":184.29,"endTime":186.96,"body":"know, Hey, this is not a company"},{"startTime":184.29,"endTime":186.96,"body":"that's, I'm gonna be a good fit for."},{"startTime":187.01,"endTime":190.34,"body":"But as far as internal versus"},{"startTime":187.01,"endTime":190.34,"body":"external, I think that that's a"},{"startTime":190.34,"endTime":194.63,"body":"good, a good way to describe the"},{"startTime":190.34,"endTime":194.63,"body":"differentiation between the two."},{"startTime":194.635,"endTime":201.61,"body":"However, I also think and I'll bring"},{"startTime":194.635,"endTime":201.61,"body":"this up here number one, that they should"},{"startTime":201.64,"endTime":206.02,"body":"be collaborating very, very closely."},{"startTime":206.26,"endTime":212.89,"body":"So a product owner should be involved"},{"startTime":206.26,"endTime":212.89,"body":"for instance, with the decisions and"},{"startTime":212.89,"endTime":218.45,"body":"the overarching kind of understanding of"},{"startTime":212.89,"endTime":218.45,"body":"that product when we're, for instance,"},{"startTime":218.51,"endTime":220.76,"body":"working with marketing and such."},{"startTime":220.76,"endTime":226.59,"body":"So there needs to be some understanding"},{"startTime":220.76,"endTime":226.59,"body":"or collaboration between those two roles."},{"startTime":226.59,"endTime":230.54,"body":"If you happen to have two"},{"startTime":226.59,"endTime":230.54,"body":"and and that goes both ways."},{"startTime":230.9,"endTime":234.62,"body":"So I think that the, there needs to be"},{"startTime":230.9,"endTime":234.62,"body":"an under a mutual understanding and input"},{"startTime":234.62,"endTime":238.76,"body":"from the product owner to the product"},{"startTime":234.62,"endTime":238.76,"body":"manager's perspective and probably the"},{"startTime":238.76,"endTime":242.24,"body":"product manager to the product owners"},{"startTime":238.76,"endTime":242.24,"body":"and the developments perspective."},{"startTime":242.24,"endTime":245.6,"body":"So there, there needs to be some"},{"startTime":242.24,"endTime":245.6,"body":"collaboration, some kind of cross"},{"startTime":245.6,"endTime":248.02,"body":"pollination there and no hierarchy."},{"startTime":248.26,"endTime":249.79,"body":"They should be equivalent."},{"startTime":250.48,"endTime":252.19,"body":"Oh, equivalent."},{"startTime":252.79,"endTime":253.08,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":253.33,"endTime":254.35,"body":"Equivalent."},{"startTime":254.405,"endTime":256.715,"body":"Yeah, you see different sides, right?"},{"startTime":256.715,"endTime":260.285,"body":"So different aspects and different"},{"startTime":256.715,"endTime":260.285,"body":"parts of the team, but equivalent."},{"startTime":260.285,"endTime":265.335,"body":"So product manager is dealing with"},{"startTime":260.285,"endTime":265.335,"body":"marketing leadership, vision mapping,"},{"startTime":265.745,"endTime":270.365,"body":"P and L you mentioned those things,"},{"startTime":265.745,"endTime":270.365,"body":"product owners dealing with end user"},{"startTime":270.365,"endTime":275.915,"body":"understanding the, from a being a me per"},{"startTime":270.365,"endTime":275.915,"body":"perhaps you understanding the ins and"},{"startTime":275.915,"endTime":282.07,"body":"outs and understanding truly the why and"},{"startTime":275.915,"endTime":282.07,"body":"the what from the end user perspective."},{"startTime":282.67,"endTime":284.26,"body":"And if we were to, for instance, kind of."},{"startTime":284.745,"endTime":289.245,"body":"Differentiate between a user"},{"startTime":284.745,"endTime":289.245,"body":"and a customer, which usually"},{"startTime":289.485,"endTime":290.505,"body":"who's paying for the product."},{"startTime":290.505,"endTime":291.825,"body":"And who's actually using the product."},{"startTime":292.065,"endTime":295.335,"body":"The product manager would be dealing"},{"startTime":292.065,"endTime":295.335,"body":"with the customer and the product owner"},{"startTime":295.335,"endTime":299.565,"body":"would be dealing with the user, at least"},{"startTime":295.335,"endTime":299.565,"body":"from my personal perspective and opinion."},{"startTime":300.465,"endTime":301.785,"body":"That's an interesting place."},{"startTime":301.785,"endTime":305.535,"body":"You just went to where he said they"},{"startTime":301.785,"endTime":305.535,"body":"should be equivalent because absolutely."},{"startTime":305.535,"endTime":308.835,"body":"That is not what we're"},{"startTime":305.535,"endTime":308.835,"body":"seeing often out there."},{"startTime":308.835,"endTime":313.065,"body":"When you look at the job descriptions,"},{"startTime":308.835,"endTime":313.065,"body":"which by the way, I, I don't know"},{"startTime":313.065,"endTime":314.505,"body":"if that's intentional or not."},{"startTime":314.565,"endTime":319.095,"body":"Some of the contents that you see in"},{"startTime":314.565,"endTime":319.095,"body":"job positions advertised are just a"},{"startTime":319.605,"endTime":321.075,"body":"they're all over the place, frankly."},{"startTime":321.285,"endTime":322.875,"body":"It, it almost looks."},{"startTime":323.375,"endTime":329.075,"body":"The job descriptions for scrum masters"},{"startTime":323.375,"endTime":329.075,"body":"and and coaches or any pick any two"},{"startTime":329.075,"endTime":331.955,"body":"roles except maybe developers, the"},{"startTime":329.075,"endTime":331.955,"body":"people just take a job description"},{"startTime":331.955,"endTime":333.125,"body":"and do a search and replace."},{"startTime":333.125,"endTime":333.755,"body":"It looks like."},{"startTime":334.175,"endTime":339.295,"body":"But,  if someone asks the question, what's"},{"startTime":334.175,"endTime":339.295,"body":"the difference between a product manager"},{"startTime":339.295,"endTime":347.515,"body":"and a product owner then particularly, I"},{"startTime":339.295,"endTime":347.515,"body":"might say about 25,000 a year about right."},{"startTime":347.565,"endTime":349.515,"body":"So that's just going to that point."},{"startTime":349.515,"endTime":351.135,"body":"You made about it being equivalent."},{"startTime":351.435,"endTime":356.135,"body":"The job positions advertised"},{"startTime":351.435,"endTime":356.135,"body":"do tend to advertise product"},{"startTime":356.135,"endTime":358.865,"body":"managers and kind of position them."},{"startTime":359.365,"endTime":360.895,"body":"The strategic leaders, right?"},{"startTime":361.075,"endTime":361.105,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":361.165,"endTime":364.765,"body":"And they would be charged with the"},{"startTime":361.165,"endTime":364.765,"body":"failure or success of the product"},{"startTime":364.885,"endTime":367.255,"body":"with the P and L product owner."},{"startTime":367.345,"endTime":368.695,"body":"They say works with the team."},{"startTime":369.025,"endTime":369.295,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":369.295,"endTime":373.375,"body":"That, I mean, this is literally from"},{"startTime":369.295,"endTime":373.375,"body":"job descriptions so therefore by"},{"startTime":373.38,"endTime":375.955,"body":"definition, not so much a strategic role."},{"startTime":376.005,"endTime":377.055,"body":"This is what I've seen."},{"startTime":377.145,"endTime":379.005,"body":"Mm-hmm  I'm not saying"},{"startTime":377.145,"endTime":379.005,"body":"this is how it should be."},{"startTime":379.035,"endTime":384.51,"body":"Mm-hmm  ideally there should be a single"},{"startTime":379.035,"endTime":384.51,"body":"flat hierarchy that says here's the"},{"startTime":384.51,"endTime":386.345,"body":"product owner, here's the product manager."},{"startTime":386.495,"endTime":391.415,"body":"And here's the customer, mm-hmm,  all"},{"startTime":386.495,"endTime":391.415,"body":"on the same level field, but that"},{"startTime":391.42,"endTime":393.035,"body":"might be utopian at this point."},{"startTime":393.106,"endTime":394.816,"body":"So we'll take baby steps for now."},{"startTime":395.116,"endTime":400.846,"body":"the strategic versus tactical"},{"startTime":395.116,"endTime":400.846,"body":"point in here is what I"},{"startTime":400.846,"endTime":402.196,"body":"wanna spend a little time on."},{"startTime":402.196,"endTime":402.466,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":403.086,"endTime":409.926,"body":"If I'm hiring a product owner and I want"},{"startTime":403.086,"endTime":409.926,"body":"them to be an expert at engaging my team,"},{"startTime":410.196,"endTime":417.066,"body":"building a backlog, talking to a customer"},{"startTime":410.196,"endTime":417.066,"body":"about their niche part of the product."},{"startTime":417.256,"endTime":420.411,"body":"look at Facebook, for example, you"},{"startTime":417.256,"endTime":420.411,"body":"have the timeline, you have groups and"},{"startTime":420.411,"endTime":421.996,"body":"you have advertisements or whatever."},{"startTime":421.996,"endTime":423.101,"body":"You have different features."},{"startTime":423.191,"endTime":423.281,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":423.341,"endTime":425.201,"body":"Each of those could have"},{"startTime":423.341,"endTime":425.201,"body":"a different product owner."},{"startTime":425.661,"endTime":425.961,"body":"For sure."},{"startTime":426.531,"endTime":429.141,"body":"Mm-hmm  like, but they're"},{"startTime":426.531,"endTime":429.141,"body":"creating a product."},{"startTime":429.171,"endTime":430.761,"body":"Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":431.741,"endTime":432.501,"body":"I completely agree with that."},{"startTime":432.956,"endTime":438.356,"body":"if you're looking at it from that"},{"startTime":432.956,"endTime":438.356,"body":"perspective, one is strategic, the PM"},{"startTime":438.716,"endTime":443.816,"body":"in that example is strategic to say,"},{"startTime":438.716,"endTime":443.816,"body":"if I have this feature for timeline and"},{"startTime":443.816,"endTime":447.206,"body":"they have this feature for marketplace"},{"startTime":443.816,"endTime":447.206,"body":"and I have this feature for groups, I"},{"startTime":447.206,"endTime":452.761,"body":"want to combine the three of them to"},{"startTime":447.206,"endTime":452.761,"body":"launch something that goes up across"},{"startTime":452.766,"endTime":456.481,"body":"all three of them at the same time,"},{"startTime":452.766,"endTime":456.481,"body":"or maybe I want to change the ads"},{"startTime":456.631,"endTime":459.961,"body":"they get served to all three of them,"},{"startTime":456.631,"endTime":459.961,"body":"cuz let's be honest, it's Facebook."},{"startTime":459.961,"endTime":461.671,"body":"So they really only care"},{"startTime":459.961,"endTime":461.671,"body":"about selling you ads."},{"startTime":461.671,"endTime":461.911,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":462.298,"endTime":469.528,"body":"I will, I, as the PM will gather all of my"},{"startTime":462.298,"endTime":469.528,"body":"POS for the different pieces of the system"},{"startTime":470.068,"endTime":475.423,"body":"and say, here's this strategic level"},{"startTime":470.068,"endTime":475.423,"body":"thing Hey, we want to give users less"},{"startTime":475.423,"endTime":477.643,"body":"things that are actually helpful to them."},{"startTime":477.703,"endTime":479.473,"body":"And we want sell more widgets."},{"startTime":479.503,"endTime":480.973,"body":"They seem doing that very, yeah."},{"startTime":480.973,"endTime":482.833,"body":"That, I mean that that's their strategy."},{"startTime":482.833,"endTime":484.063,"body":"That that's why they like, yeah."},{"startTime":484.243,"endTime":488.083,"body":"I mean, that's why they're losing"},{"startTime":484.243,"endTime":488.083,"body":"market, like at a blinding pace because"},{"startTime":488.233,"endTime":492.203,"body":"their, their PMs are coming at it from"},{"startTime":488.233,"endTime":492.203,"body":"that perspective, how can we sell more"},{"startTime":492.643,"endTime":497.153,"body":"advertising and here are the features"},{"startTime":492.643,"endTime":497.153,"body":"that each of you have to implement"},{"startTime":497.363,"endTime":505.133,"body":"in your small areas of the product in"},{"startTime":497.363,"endTime":505.133,"body":"order to cater to the strategic things"},{"startTime":505.283,"endTime":507.923,"body":"that we, the leadership are trying to."},{"startTime":508.043,"endTime":515.363,"body":"So, the reason I bring up that accusatory"},{"startTime":508.043,"endTime":515.363,"body":"example is because when we say the PM"},{"startTime":515.363,"endTime":522.548,"body":"and the PO should be equal levels my"},{"startTime":515.363,"endTime":522.548,"body":"experience is they certainly are not equal"},{"startTime":522.768,"endTime":528.428,"body":"so the people who serve the strategic"},{"startTime":522.768,"endTime":528.428,"body":"interest and the people who serve the"},{"startTime":528.433,"endTime":533.853,"body":"teams, it's like these people are coupled"},{"startTime":528.433,"endTime":533.853,"body":"with your leadership versus these people"},{"startTime":533.853,"endTime":536.073,"body":"are grassroots couple with your teams."},{"startTime":536.203,"endTime":537.578,"body":"They live in different worlds."},{"startTime":537.578,"endTime":538.688,"body":"Mm-hmm  is kind of what I'm saying."},{"startTime":538.988,"endTime":546.268,"body":"So I, I don't, I don't see them as like"},{"startTime":538.988,"endTime":546.268,"body":"coming from an agile transformation"},{"startTime":546.388,"endTime":550.768,"body":"experience where, Hey, my development"},{"startTime":546.388,"endTime":550.768,"body":"team say we need to be more agile."},{"startTime":550.858,"endTime":553.568,"body":"And my leadership team says"},{"startTime":550.858,"endTime":553.568,"body":"I don't care about agile."},{"startTime":553.568,"endTime":554.618,"body":"I want everything on a Gantt."},{"startTime":554.918,"endTime":555.248,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":555.248,"endTime":559.418,"body":"Like, from that perspective,"},{"startTime":555.248,"endTime":559.418,"body":"I would say I understand where"},{"startTime":559.418,"endTime":562.028,"body":"you're saying they should be equal."},{"startTime":562.808,"endTime":568.068,"body":"Hierarchically should be equal but"},{"startTime":562.808,"endTime":568.068,"body":"I, I see the group that communicates"},{"startTime":568.068,"endTime":573.828,"body":"with leadership as a, in a superior"},{"startTime":568.068,"endTime":573.828,"body":"position to the ones that work"},{"startTime":573.828,"endTime":574.788,"body":"with the development teams."},{"startTime":575.208,"endTime":578.838,"body":"That sounds like somebody who's"},{"startTime":575.208,"endTime":578.838,"body":"really buying into hierarchy and"},{"startTime":578.838,"endTime":585.158,"body":"patriarchy and not very agile, I would"},{"startTime":578.838,"endTime":585.158,"body":"say, well, it's prevalent though."},{"startTime":585.158,"endTime":587.048,"body":"I mean the DNA, I'm not"},{"startTime":585.158,"endTime":587.048,"body":"saying it's not prevalent."},{"startTime":587.078,"endTime":589.903,"body":"So here here's another"},{"startTime":587.078,"endTime":589.903,"body":"example of that, right?"},{"startTime":589.903,"endTime":595.833,"body":"So Microsoft has Microsoft office mm-hmm"},{"startTime":589.903,"endTime":595.833,"body":"and there are other components that"},{"startTime":596.333,"endTime":599.093,"body":"office kind of has overarchingly, right?"},{"startTime":599.143,"endTime":602.873,"body":"So to take a non-technical"},{"startTime":599.143,"endTime":602.873,"body":"example, how about construction?"},{"startTime":603.083,"endTime":608.513,"body":"So in construction, you have an"},{"startTime":603.083,"endTime":608.513,"body":"architect who basically oversees"},{"startTime":609.203,"endTime":612.593,"body":"the construction from a design"},{"startTime":609.203,"endTime":612.593,"body":"standpoint, and then you have."},{"startTime":613.593,"endTime":618.523,"body":"the plumbers and you have the"},{"startTime":613.593,"endTime":618.523,"body":"electricians, and you have the roofers"},{"startTime":618.523,"endTime":620.613,"body":"or whoever people that put up walls."},{"startTime":620.613,"endTime":622.203,"body":"I don't know what you call 'em wallers."},{"startTime":622.263,"endTime":622.623,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":622.803,"endTime":625.463,"body":"Anyway, doesn't matter you"},{"startTime":622.803,"endTime":625.463,"body":"have those people wallers."},{"startTime":625.963,"endTime":628.943,"body":"So wall-e's, masons, I don't know."},{"startTime":629.043,"endTime":632.313,"body":"These are product owners"},{"startTime":629.043,"endTime":632.313,"body":"in construction, but."},{"startTime":632.813,"endTime":635.663,"body":"You know, their product manager"},{"startTime":632.813,"endTime":635.663,"body":"might be the architect, really?"},{"startTime":635.663,"endTime":638.333,"body":"So are they at the same level that"},{"startTime":635.663,"endTime":638.333,"body":"that's really where I'm going?"},{"startTime":638.543,"endTime":640.043,"body":"Just another example to think through."},{"startTime":640.543,"endTime":645.103,"body":"So from building perspective,"},{"startTime":640.543,"endTime":645.103,"body":"each of those products are"},{"startTime":645.673,"endTime":650.003,"body":"individual and necessary for the"},{"startTime":645.673,"endTime":650.003,"body":"overall success of the project."},{"startTime":650.003,"endTime":654.173,"body":"You can't have a home without"},{"startTime":650.003,"endTime":654.173,"body":"plumbing or electric or at"},{"startTime":654.178,"endTime":655.943,"body":"least not a modern day home."},{"startTime":655.948,"endTime":656.003,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":656.553,"endTime":657.393,"body":"Unless you're in China."},{"startTime":657.573,"endTime":657.923,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":658.373,"endTime":658.723,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":658.983,"endTime":663.423,"body":"You don't get in here, you wouldn't"},{"startTime":658.983,"endTime":663.423,"body":"get a co and maybe, maybe it's the"},{"startTime":663.423,"endTime":665.553,"body":"inspector, that's the product manager."},{"startTime":665.613,"endTime":666.693,"body":"I don't know, you know?"},{"startTime":667.003,"endTime":670.74,"body":"Who's you know, deciding,"},{"startTime":667.003,"endTime":670.74,"body":"Hey, failure versus success."},{"startTime":670.86,"endTime":673.14,"body":"This moves, this actually"},{"startTime":670.86,"endTime":673.14,"body":"goes to production."},{"startTime":673.14,"endTime":674.617,"body":"We are allowed to checkbox."},{"startTime":674.617,"endTime":674.857,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":674.857,"endTime":676.297,"body":"You meet this or you don't."},{"startTime":676.297,"endTime":677.287,"body":"I mean, I'm not sure."},{"startTime":677.287,"endTime":678.797,"body":"I'm not sure where the analogy goes."},{"startTime":678.817,"endTime":681.577,"body":"Inspector wouldn't be though, because"},{"startTime":678.817,"endTime":681.577,"body":"they don't have a vested interest."},{"startTime":681.667,"endTime":685.507,"body":"They're a third party looking at"},{"startTime":681.667,"endTime":685.507,"body":"from a regulatory perspective, right."},{"startTime":685.837,"endTime":688.747,"body":"To grant, grant you a"},{"startTime":685.837,"endTime":688.747,"body":"certificate of occupancy or not."},{"startTime":689.322,"endTime":693.192,"body":"So they they're simply looking for"},{"startTime":689.322,"endTime":693.192,"body":"conformance to specific regulations."},{"startTime":693.252,"endTime":697.262,"body":"So to follow along this analogy would be"},{"startTime":693.252,"endTime":697.262,"body":"whomever, the construction, the builder,"},{"startTime":697.322,"endTime":701.312,"body":"the builder, the construction, the builder"},{"startTime":697.322,"endTime":701.312,"body":"is because they would be hiring all of"},{"startTime":701.312,"endTime":705.332,"body":"these subcontractors, which would have"},{"startTime":701.312,"endTime":705.332,"body":"their own kind of product owners or their"},{"startTime":705.332,"endTime":706.922,"body":"own features that they're bringing in."},{"startTime":706.922,"endTime":708.692,"body":"That must be completed."},{"startTime":709.472,"endTime":709.802,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":709.892,"endTime":710.072,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":710.402,"endTime":711.872,"body":"Is, are, are, are we kind of meeting?"},{"startTime":711.872,"endTime":714.302,"body":"Yeah, I think that might be a"},{"startTime":711.872,"endTime":714.302,"body":"better analogy, the builder,"},{"startTime":714.482,"endTime":717.322,"body":"and then that way we can flatten"},{"startTime":714.482,"endTime":717.322,"body":"out hier hierarchically, right?"},{"startTime":717.327,"endTime":720.562,"body":"So you have the architects, the"},{"startTime":717.327,"endTime":720.562,"body":"plumbers, the electricians, but is"},{"startTime":720.562,"endTime":722.612,"body":"the, they're all at the same leader."},{"startTime":722.792,"endTime":726.482,"body":"But is leadership builder, the"},{"startTime":722.792,"endTime":726.482,"body":"leadership or the product manager?"},{"startTime":726.812,"endTime":727.772,"body":"I'm staying out this one."},{"startTime":728.252,"endTime":728.732,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":728.732,"endTime":730.832,"body":"Maybe we're going down and"},{"startTime":728.732,"endTime":730.832,"body":"rabbit whole should go down."},{"startTime":730.877,"endTime":731.467,"body":"What are we talking about?"},{"startTime":731.497,"endTime":733.607,"body":"Know, I hierarchy, we're"},{"startTime":731.497,"endTime":733.607,"body":"talking about hierarchy."},{"startTime":733.607,"endTime":736.727,"body":"We talking about building houses,"},{"startTime":733.607,"endTime":736.727,"body":"so, and, and where we should be"},{"startTime":736.732,"endTime":738.587,"body":"flattening out the freaking hierarchy."},{"startTime":738.812,"endTime":743.122,"body":"Seems to be just proliferating because"},{"startTime":738.812,"endTime":743.122,"body":"we can't get away from the manner in"},{"startTime":743.122,"endTime":748.437,"body":"which we have been so accustomed to"},{"startTime":743.122,"endTime":748.437,"body":"making sure that we have, you know"},{"startTime":748.537,"endTime":751.467,"body":"one of the podcasts I listened to one"},{"startTime":748.537,"endTime":751.467,"body":"of the things that he brought to my"},{"startTime":751.467,"endTime":755.737,"body":"attention actually, and it's about"},{"startTime":751.467,"endTime":755.737,"body":"product ownership and , he mentions when"},{"startTime":755.742,"endTime":760.717,"body":"you have a question about why things"},{"startTime":755.742,"endTime":760.717,"body":"are done you look at the incentives,"},{"startTime":760.867,"endTime":762.637,"body":"what are they being incentivized by?"},{"startTime":763.237,"endTime":764.617,"body":"Where are the incentives?"},{"startTime":764.887,"endTime":767.047,"body":"That's, what's driving the behavior."},{"startTime":767.287,"endTime":768.997,"body":"And so we're talking about hierarchy."},{"startTime":769.512,"endTime":770.892,"body":"Incentives driving the behavior."},{"startTime":770.892,"endTime":772.662,"body":"It could be $25,000."},{"startTime":772.692,"endTime":773.082,"body":"Oh boy."},{"startTime":773.712,"endTime":774.072,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":774.612,"endTime":775.032,"body":"Oh boy."},{"startTime":775.212,"endTime":777.23,"body":"Like we're we're we're gonna cut ahead."},{"startTime":777.53,"endTime":781.13,"body":"A couple podcasts to, to the DMing"},{"startTime":777.53,"endTime":781.13,"body":"podcast that we're never gonna get to."},{"startTime":781.25,"endTime":782.03,"body":"We're gonna get to it."},{"startTime":782.03,"endTime":782.982,"body":"We're totally, but"},{"startTime":783.032,"endTime":788.872,"body":"listen  agile, can't help you if"},{"startTime":783.032,"endTime":788.872,"body":"you are not running a good business."},{"startTime":788.902,"endTime":789.022,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":789.472,"endTime":790.972,"body":"Like there's nothing that we can do."},{"startTime":791.332,"endTime":797.632,"body":"That's gonna help you if you're like,"},{"startTime":791.332,"endTime":797.632,"body":"oh, I want to produce 10 more widgets"},{"startTime":797.692,"endTime":800.002,"body":"per day than I was producing before."},{"startTime":800.092,"endTime":800.842,"body":"Well, cool."},{"startTime":800.842,"endTime":806.002,"body":"Well now your defect rate is"},{"startTime":800.842,"endTime":806.002,"body":"gonna go from 5% up to 50%."},{"startTime":806.212,"endTime":810.532,"body":"But all your people who get measured"},{"startTime":806.212,"endTime":810.532,"body":"by number of widgets per day,"},{"startTime":810.532,"endTime":815.592,"body":"mm-hmm  super product gonna, they're"},{"startTime":810.532,"endTime":815.592,"body":"gonna get their bonuses but seven"},{"startTime":815.592,"endTime":819.702,"body":"of those 15 widgets you're punching"},{"startTime":815.592,"endTime":819.702,"body":"out per day are completely unusable."},{"startTime":819.707,"endTime":820.662,"body":"You gotta throw 'em in the trash,"},{"startTime":820.872,"endTime":825.642,"body":"."},{"startTime":820.872,"endTime":825.642,"body":"Why would you incentivize mm-hmm  the"},{"startTime":825.642,"endTime":831.252,"body":"into concern, the total quality or"},{"startTime":825.642,"endTime":831.252,"body":"the usability of the like, okay."},{"startTime":831.402,"endTime":834.852,"body":"Like,  that that's that's,"},{"startTime":831.402,"endTime":834.852,"body":"that's where we're ending up now."},{"startTime":834.852,"endTime":834.942,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":834.942,"endTime":836.292,"body":"In this, in this conversation."},{"startTime":836.292,"endTime":836.442,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":836.802,"endTime":840.432,"body":"so going a little backtrack and"},{"startTime":836.802,"endTime":840.432,"body":"go a little deeper in there."},{"startTime":840.932,"endTime":843.422,"body":"Why do we need 15 widgets instead of 10?"},{"startTime":843.482,"endTime":845.132,"body":"What problem are we"},{"startTime":843.482,"endTime":845.132,"body":"actually trying to solve?"},{"startTime":845.132,"endTime":845.462,"body":"And for whom?"},{"startTime":845.962,"endTime":849.548,"body":"This is, this is what we"},{"startTime":845.962,"endTime":849.548,"body":"like to call vanity metrics."},{"startTime":849.81,"endTime":850.53,"body":"It all goes back."},{"startTime":850.53,"endTime":850.77,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":850.77,"endTime":851.25,"body":"It all goes back."},{"startTime":851.6,"endTime":856.34,"body":"Vanity metrics like when, when"},{"startTime":851.6,"endTime":856.34,"body":"you are a middle manager and"},{"startTime":856.34,"endTime":858.59,"body":"you don't produce anything."},{"startTime":859.29,"endTime":863.22,"body":"The way that you know, that"},{"startTime":859.29,"endTime":863.22,"body":"you are having the effect is"},{"startTime":863.28,"endTime":865.11,"body":"that the vanity metrics go up."},{"startTime":865.35,"endTime":865.38,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":865.38,"endTime":865.44,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":865.56,"endTime":867.76,"body":"And then you can prove your job."},{"startTime":867.91,"endTime":872.39,"body":"I feel we should do a whole podcast"},{"startTime":867.91,"endTime":872.39,"body":"about decentralizing your organization."},{"startTime":872.78,"endTime":873.11,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":873.17,"endTime":873.74,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":873.98,"endTime":876.38,"body":"Basically distributing"},{"startTime":873.98,"endTime":876.38,"body":"your organization because."},{"startTime":876.765,"endTime":881.715,"body":"each team could keep track of their"},{"startTime":876.765,"endTime":881.715,"body":"own effectiveness and efficiency"},{"startTime":881.895,"endTime":884.175,"body":"within the sphere of what they produce."},{"startTime":884.715,"endTime":885.005,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":885.01,"endTime":891.18,"body":"Yes and, but when you do that there's a"},{"startTime":885.01,"endTime":891.18,"body":"whole middle layer of the organization"},{"startTime":891.51,"endTime":893.55,"body":"that basically doesn't have a job anymore."},{"startTime":893.65,"endTime":899.12,"body":"When you distribute the production"},{"startTime":893.65,"endTime":899.12,"body":"to each individual team what are"},{"startTime":899.12,"endTime":901.16,"body":"all these people that are left?"},{"startTime":901.22,"endTime":902.63,"body":"What, what do they have to do?"},{"startTime":902.93,"endTime":904.28,"body":"They don't produce anything."},{"startTime":904.73,"endTime":910.31,"body":"So we're gonna continue paying salaries"},{"startTime":904.73,"endTime":910.31,"body":"to people that we could potentially"},{"startTime":910.67,"endTime":912.74,"body":"find other opportunities for."},{"startTime":913.32,"endTime":920.875,"body":"And while, while actually,  building"},{"startTime":913.32,"endTime":920.875,"body":"our product out to have longevity"},{"startTime":921.265,"endTime":924.96,"body":"and to create the opportunity"},{"startTime":921.265,"endTime":924.96,"body":"for innovation and growth."},{"startTime":924.99,"endTime":928.92,"body":"But I hear some incentives there"},{"startTime":924.99,"endTime":928.92,"body":"that are really keeping people"},{"startTime":928.92,"endTime":932.34,"body":"in that middle management that"},{"startTime":928.92,"endTime":932.34,"body":"just have to keep them there."},{"startTime":932.76,"endTime":935.07,"body":"So yeah, this is a problem"},{"startTime":932.76,"endTime":935.07,"body":"that goes much higher."},{"startTime":935.71,"endTime":938.13,"body":"and has nothing whatsoever"},{"startTime":935.71,"endTime":938.13,"body":"to do with PO and  PM."},{"startTime":938.49,"endTime":940.26,"body":"Oh, well, no, I, no, I don't."},{"startTime":940.26,"endTime":940.92,"body":"I don't agree."},{"startTime":940.98,"endTime":941.82,"body":"So oh yeah, right."},{"startTime":941.82,"endTime":942.12,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":942.15,"endTime":947.49,"body":"Where, where I don't agree, brings us"},{"startTime":942.15,"endTime":947.49,"body":"back to our topic of a strategic versus"},{"startTime":947.49,"endTime":952.68,"body":"tactical because the people that are"},{"startTime":947.49,"endTime":952.68,"body":"the PMs, the people that are in that"},{"startTime":952.68,"endTime":956.76,"body":"strategic role, this is like, I don't,"},{"startTime":952.68,"endTime":956.76,"body":"I don't know if, is it too early on"},{"startTime":956.76,"endTime":961.11,"body":"the podcast to break out like all your"},{"startTime":956.76,"endTime":961.11,"body":"PO's could just relabel themselves"},{"startTime":961.11,"endTime":963.99,"body":"as PMs and just kick out all the PMs?"},{"startTime":963.99,"endTime":965.04,"body":"Is it too early for that?"},{"startTime":965.04,"endTime":968.7,"body":"No, I have great thought on that"},{"startTime":965.04,"endTime":968.7,"body":"because, because the people in that"},{"startTime":968.7,"endTime":973.85,"body":"strategic position they have found"},{"startTime":968.7,"endTime":973.85,"body":"themselves in the role that we were"},{"startTime":973.85,"endTime":977.99,"body":"just bashing on all the people in"},{"startTime":973.85,"endTime":977.99,"body":"like, oh, I think you're the only one."},{"startTime":977.99,"endTime":980.95,"body":"You have to be in the"},{"startTime":977.99,"endTime":980.95,"body":"contrarian position age."},{"startTime":980.95,"endTime":982.25,"body":"I think contrarian, you have,"},{"startTime":980.95,"endTime":982.25,"body":"you have to sign in the contr."},{"startTime":982.45,"endTime":984.22,"body":"Although I really have some"},{"startTime":982.45,"endTime":984.22,"body":"powerful things to say."},{"startTime":984.585,"endTime":988.995,"body":"Okay, well, the advocacy end of it,"},{"startTime":984.585,"endTime":988.995,"body":"I'll I guess I'll sign onto, I don't"},{"startTime":988.995,"endTime":992.355,"body":"know how I'm gonna do this, but"},{"startTime":988.995,"endTime":992.355,"body":"actually gimme a minute, gimme a minute."},{"startTime":992.355,"endTime":994.875,"body":"And I'll figure out a way to sign"},{"startTime":992.355,"endTime":994.875,"body":"onto the contrarian position,"},{"startTime":995.125,"endTime":1000.975,"body":"the people that are in that strategic"},{"startTime":995.125,"endTime":1000.975,"body":"only spot who only face the leadership"},{"startTime":1001.815,"endTime":1007.42,"body":"and don't interact individually"},{"startTime":1001.815,"endTime":1007.42,"body":"with developers, do you think that"},{"startTime":1007.92,"endTime":1013.17,"body":"strategically in the organization,"},{"startTime":1007.92,"endTime":1013.17,"body":"the leadership trusts them?"},{"startTime":1013.995,"endTime":1017.265,"body":"More than they trust the people"},{"startTime":1013.995,"endTime":1017.265,"body":"in charge at the tactical level."},{"startTime":1017.525,"endTime":1019.205,"body":"That that's my challenge to the mic."},{"startTime":1019.295,"endTime":1020.105,"body":"We should talk about this."},{"startTime":1020.11,"endTime":1021.665,"body":"So Mike, when he is on the"},{"startTime":1020.11,"endTime":1021.665,"body":"podcast, we should bring him back."},{"startTime":1021.845,"endTime":1022.745,"body":"Mike, if you're listening."},{"startTime":1022.745,"endTime":1023.135,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1023.435,"endTime":1028.205,"body":"If you have people who work at the"},{"startTime":1023.435,"endTime":1028.205,"body":"strategic level, who their main audience"},{"startTime":1028.205,"endTime":1031.805,"body":"is a leadership, and you have people who"},{"startTime":1028.205,"endTime":1031.805,"body":"work at a tactical level and their main"},{"startTime":1031.805,"endTime":1037.095,"body":"audience are developers and team members"},{"startTime":1031.805,"endTime":1037.095,"body":"who has more clout in the organization."},{"startTime":1037.125,"endTime":1039.945,"body":"That's where I'm going with"},{"startTime":1037.125,"endTime":1039.945,"body":"this, the leadership hire."},{"startTime":1040.385,"endTime":1042.695,"body":"Those people that are the PMs, right?"},{"startTime":1042.695,"endTime":1044.255,"body":"The presumably they hired them."},{"startTime":1044.495,"endTime":1044.615,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1045.305,"endTime":1047.735,"body":"So obviously they're the"},{"startTime":1045.305,"endTime":1047.735,"body":"ones that gonna trust."},{"startTime":1047.735,"endTime":1048.005,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1048.005,"endTime":1049.535,"body":"So cuz you hired that person."},{"startTime":1049.535,"endTime":1050.615,"body":"Well, that's a big problem."},{"startTime":1051.335,"endTime":1051.845,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":1051.935,"endTime":1058.01,"body":"But if you hire somebody and then you cast"},{"startTime":1051.935,"endTime":1058.01,"body":"a shadow on them and, and say, I dunno"},{"startTime":1058.01,"endTime":1059.96,"body":"if I trust you, you've made a mistake."},{"startTime":1059.96,"endTime":1062.75,"body":"It seems like to the organization"},{"startTime":1059.96,"endTime":1062.75,"body":"and they're gonna look at you."},{"startTime":1063.46,"endTime":1067.69,"body":"But you hired this person and now"},{"startTime":1063.46,"endTime":1067.69,"body":"you're saying they're not working out."},{"startTime":1068.05,"endTime":1069.34,"body":"We don't trust you hiring capabil."},{"startTime":1069.345,"endTime":1069.52,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1069.52,"endTime":1074.446,"body":"But the reason I'm lingering on this one"},{"startTime":1069.52,"endTime":1074.446,"body":"so long is if we're saying these strategic"},{"startTime":1074.536,"endTime":1080.236,"body":"and the tactical people, the PM PO if"},{"startTime":1074.536,"endTime":1080.236,"body":"we're saying they are on equal footing,"},{"startTime":1080.356,"endTime":1086.236,"body":"mm-hmm , but half of the audience, the"},{"startTime":1080.356,"endTime":1086.236,"body":"PMs, only interact with leadership."},{"startTime":1086.476,"endTime":1090.646,"body":"And the other half of the audience only"},{"startTime":1086.476,"endTime":1090.646,"body":"interact with my customers and my internal"},{"startTime":1090.916,"endTime":1095.796,"body":"stakeholders, developers, team members,"},{"startTime":1090.916,"endTime":1095.796,"body":"whatever they are not on equal footing."},{"startTime":1095.826,"endTime":1098.856,"body":"One is elevated in the organization."},{"startTime":1098.971,"endTime":1102.931,"body":"And has more influence just by their"},{"startTime":1098.971,"endTime":1102.931,"body":"role, like their circle of influence."},{"startTime":1102.931,"endTime":1102.991,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1102.991,"endTime":1103.831,"body":"The circle of influence."},{"startTime":1103.831,"endTime":1104.071,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1104.251,"endTime":1104.431,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1104.431,"endTime":1107.121,"body":"That's not a good way to"},{"startTime":1104.431,"endTime":1107.121,"body":"split up your PMs and POS."},{"startTime":1107.121,"endTime":1107.321,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1107.561,"endTime":1110.881,"body":"I would say they have more influence"},{"startTime":1107.561,"endTime":1110.881,"body":"by nothing more than the fact that they"},{"startTime":1110.881,"endTime":1113.491,"body":"have a manager title in their name."},{"startTime":1113.691,"endTime":1117.711,"body":"number one, which I think is what"},{"startTime":1113.691,"endTime":1117.711,"body":"makes one of the things, this is"},{"startTime":1117.711,"endTime":1119.751,"body":"just hypothesized, I don't know."},{"startTime":1119.911,"endTime":1122.851,"body":"It's the prestige of being a"},{"startTime":1119.911,"endTime":1122.851,"body":"manager, a manager in the position."},{"startTime":1123.031,"endTime":1123.391,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1123.391,"endTime":1126.331,"body":"So the other thing I would"},{"startTime":1123.391,"endTime":1126.331,"body":"mention, so a little bit of history"},{"startTime":1126.331,"endTime":1127.771,"body":"here, I think would be helpful."},{"startTime":1128.491,"endTime":1133.401,"body":"So number one, scrum came about"},{"startTime":1128.491,"endTime":1133.401,"body":"before the agile manifesto, right?"},{"startTime":1133.406,"endTime":1133.501,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1133.506,"endTime":1134.451,"body":"So they, right."},{"startTime":1134.451,"endTime":1135.471,"body":"So scrum."},{"startTime":1136.146,"endTime":1139.686,"body":"N actually created the term product owner."},{"startTime":1139.746,"endTime":1140.136,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1140.196,"endTime":1143.256,"body":"And that, and that that role"},{"startTime":1140.196,"endTime":1143.256,"body":"has developed over the multiple"},{"startTime":1143.256,"endTime":1144.606,"body":"iterations of the scrum guide."},{"startTime":1144.611,"endTime":1145.026,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1145.031,"endTime":1151.356,"body":"Yeah so product owner was a role"},{"startTime":1145.031,"endTime":1151.356,"body":"that was coined by the scrum guide"},{"startTime":1152.296,"endTime":1155.896,"body":"and the developers of the scrum"},{"startTime":1152.296,"endTime":1155.896,"body":"guide, obviously they were involved"},{"startTime":1155.896,"endTime":1157.426,"body":"in creating the agile manifesto."},{"startTime":1157.426,"endTime":1157.726,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1157.766,"endTime":1163.356,"body":"Mm-hmm  product management actually was"},{"startTime":1157.766,"endTime":1163.356,"body":"coined by Hewlett packer, Packard in the,"},{"startTime":1163.356,"endTime":1169.806,"body":"about, in the early mid nineties however"},{"startTime":1163.356,"endTime":1169.806,"body":"product managers had been around prior"},{"startTime":1169.806,"endTime":1173.436,"body":"to that long before have been, maybe"},{"startTime":1169.806,"endTime":1173.436,"body":"been called something a little different,"},{"startTime":1173.436,"endTime":1175.191,"body":"but certainly been in that capacity."},{"startTime":1175.771,"endTime":1179.341,"body":"We could actually historically"},{"startTime":1175.771,"endTime":1179.341,"body":"go back and, and currently figure"},{"startTime":1179.346,"endTime":1181.561,"body":"out what those definitions are."},{"startTime":1181.621,"endTime":1181.711,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1181.771,"endTime":1182.161,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1182.161,"endTime":1184.621,"body":"And then actually the"},{"startTime":1182.161,"endTime":1184.621,"body":"historical to manifestation"},{"startTime":1184.621,"endTime":1185.891,"body":"of those and, and, and their."},{"startTime":1186.721,"endTime":1191.581,"body":"but I actually, because I attended"},{"startTime":1186.721,"endTime":1191.581,"body":"recently the agile 20, 22, and I actually"},{"startTime":1191.581,"endTime":1193.681,"body":"watched a keynote by Melissa Perry."},{"startTime":1193.791,"endTime":1195.741,"body":"And I don't necessarily agree"},{"startTime":1193.791,"endTime":1195.741,"body":"with this to be very honest."},{"startTime":1195.746,"endTime":1201.361,"body":"However, she had a point that I'll"},{"startTime":1195.746,"endTime":1201.361,"body":"bring up here and that is she'd actually"},{"startTime":1201.361,"endTime":1203.431,"body":"never worked as a product owner."},{"startTime":1203.431,"endTime":1205.411,"body":"She only worked as a product"},{"startTime":1203.431,"endTime":1205.411,"body":"manager and she's the one that"},{"startTime":1205.411,"endTime":1206.941,"body":"actually brought this history up."},{"startTime":1206.941,"endTime":1210.991,"body":"Right but then scrum came along and"},{"startTime":1206.941,"endTime":1210.991,"body":"then there was a product owner, which"},{"startTime":1210.991,"endTime":1212.641,"body":"was in her mind, a product manager."},{"startTime":1212.641,"endTime":1215.251,"body":"She just kept her product"},{"startTime":1212.641,"endTime":1215.251,"body":"manager, role title and whatever."},{"startTime":1215.731,"endTime":1219.211,"body":"But her definition when she"},{"startTime":1215.731,"endTime":1219.211,"body":"differentiates product manager"},{"startTime":1219.211,"endTime":1220.741,"body":"and product owner, is that."},{"startTime":1221.266,"endTime":1225.306,"body":"The product owner is the role"},{"startTime":1221.266,"endTime":1225.306,"body":"where the product manager is"},{"startTime":1225.306,"endTime":1230.106,"body":"the job they are or can be."},{"startTime":1230.396,"endTime":1230.686,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1230.706,"endTime":1231.686,"body":"One and the same."},{"startTime":1232.186,"endTime":1232.476,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1232.516,"endTime":1233.076,"body":"I can say that."},{"startTime":1234.056,"endTime":1236.826,"body":"So the job is to manage the product."},{"startTime":1236.886,"endTime":1241.206,"body":"The role is the product owner,"},{"startTime":1236.886,"endTime":1241.206,"body":"which is defined by the scrum guide."},{"startTime":1241.206,"endTime":1241.326,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1241.686,"endTime":1244.676,"body":"That's Melissa Perry's"},{"startTime":1241.686,"endTime":1244.676,"body":"interpretation of it."},{"startTime":1244.726,"endTime":1248.956,"body":"I wanna just go to this directly now"},{"startTime":1244.726,"endTime":1248.956,"body":"and say, forget about all these titles."},{"startTime":1248.956,"endTime":1253.436,"body":"Forget about product owner, product"},{"startTime":1248.956,"endTime":1253.436,"body":"manager, somebody who cares about"},{"startTime":1253.441,"endTime":1254.616,"body":"the product, give 'em a title."},{"startTime":1254.616,"endTime":1258.746,"body":"Mm-hmm,  a product evangelist and"},{"startTime":1254.616,"endTime":1258.746,"body":"that's it forget about whether"},{"startTime":1258.746,"endTime":1260.856,"body":"they're tactical strategic."},{"startTime":1260.861,"endTime":1261.536,"body":"Yes, they are."},{"startTime":1261.956,"endTime":1262.736,"body":"The tactical."},{"startTime":1262.736,"endTime":1263.216,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1263.216,"endTime":1264.116,"body":"Are they strategic?"},{"startTime":1264.116,"endTime":1266.216,"body":"Yes, because they care about the customer."},{"startTime":1266.246,"endTime":1268.736,"body":"Mm-hmm,  in shortcut all this BS."},{"startTime":1269.366,"endTime":1270.176,"body":"I agree with that."},{"startTime":1270.176,"endTime":1273.276,"body":"However, we don't have"},{"startTime":1270.176,"endTime":1273.276,"body":"that in job description."},{"startTime":1273.281,"endTime":1277.006,"body":"We have companies who are going I want a"},{"startTime":1273.281,"endTime":1277.006,"body":"product manager  literally, because that"},{"startTime":1277.006,"endTime":1280.786,"body":"sounds more official than product owner or"},{"startTime":1277.006,"endTime":1280.786,"body":"they don't know what a product owner is."},{"startTime":1281.176,"endTime":1285.016,"body":"And it sounds a lot like project"},{"startTime":1281.176,"endTime":1285.016,"body":"manager, which is kind of what I want."},{"startTime":1285.016,"endTime":1288.666,"body":"So let me, let me just, well, I"},{"startTime":1285.016,"endTime":1288.666,"body":"don't know what a product manager is."},{"startTime":1288.956,"endTime":1289.526,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1289.526,"endTime":1293.636,"body":"I know what a project manager is because"},{"startTime":1289.526,"endTime":1293.636,"body":"they've been around since Adam and Eve."},{"startTime":1293.816,"endTime":1298.316,"body":"So what we're gonna do is we're gonna take"},{"startTime":1293.816,"endTime":1298.316,"body":"a job description for project manager and"},{"startTime":1298.316,"endTime":1300.446,"body":"search and replace project with product."},{"startTime":1300.836,"endTime":1302.156,"body":"This is what I have found."},{"startTime":1302.346,"endTime":1302.636,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1302.636,"endTime":1302.756,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1302.761,"endTime":1307.736,"body":"And, ah, so that's my point is that"},{"startTime":1302.761,"endTime":1307.736,"body":"there's a lot of just misconception"},{"startTime":1308.056,"endTime":1315.256,"body":"miscommunication ignorance, intentional"},{"startTime":1308.056,"endTime":1315.256,"body":"or not, malicious ignorance, I think."},{"startTime":1315.261,"endTime":1316.066,"body":"What was that term?"},{"startTime":1316.066,"endTime":1319.216,"body":"You coined earlier, malicious"},{"startTime":1316.066,"endTime":1319.216,"body":"compliance, malicious compliance."},{"startTime":1319.221,"endTime":1319.786,"body":"There you go."},{"startTime":1319.786,"endTime":1320.176,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1320.566,"endTime":1322.276,"body":"So that's what I'm finding."},{"startTime":1322.306,"endTime":1326.446,"body":"And so that makes the job market"},{"startTime":1322.306,"endTime":1326.446,"body":"for someone who is truly trying to"},{"startTime":1326.446,"endTime":1331.246,"body":"get out there and be for instance,"},{"startTime":1326.446,"endTime":1331.246,"body":"the product evangelist, the"},{"startTime":1331.246,"endTime":1334.036,"body":"product advocate, the product nerd."},{"startTime":1334.951,"endTime":1339.071,"body":"Freaking product, you wanna call it, but"},{"startTime":1334.951,"endTime":1339.071,"body":"the person that's going to go in there"},{"startTime":1339.311,"endTime":1343.481,"body":"and find out the who the what and the"},{"startTime":1339.311,"endTime":1343.481,"body":"why, and make this a  successful product."},{"startTime":1343.841,"endTime":1349.691,"body":"That's what I wanna do and allow me to do"},{"startTime":1343.841,"endTime":1349.691,"body":"that and give me the levity and the trust,"},{"startTime":1349.901,"endTime":1356.941,"body":"the respect, and the absolute authority to"},{"startTime":1349.901,"endTime":1356.941,"body":"make decisions in regards to that product."},{"startTime":1357.151,"endTime":1358.081,"body":"That's what I need."},{"startTime":1358.711,"endTime":1360.811,"body":"And that's not what I'm getting."},{"startTime":1360.851,"endTime":1366.281,"body":"oftentimes when I see a product"},{"startTime":1360.851,"endTime":1366.281,"body":"manager title, which almost"},{"startTime":1366.281,"endTime":1368.751,"body":"screams, command and control."},{"startTime":1369.536,"endTime":1370.076,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1370.081,"endTime":1371.036,"body":"I agree with all of that."},{"startTime":1371.396,"endTime":1372.926,"body":"Maybe product minion."},{"startTime":1372.926,"endTime":1373.976,"body":"How's that for a title?"},{"startTime":1374.006,"endTime":1374.396,"body":"Fair enough."},{"startTime":1374.396,"endTime":1375.266,"body":"A product minion."},{"startTime":1376.046,"endTime":1377.546,"body":"Beep beep beep beep, sorry."},{"startTime":1378.146,"endTime":1378.836,"body":"I can't do opinion."},{"startTime":1378.836,"endTime":1381.276,"body":"If I'm gonna pick something outta"},{"startTime":1378.836,"endTime":1381.276,"body":"the air you definitely can draw a"},{"startTime":1381.306,"endTime":1386.286,"body":"dividing line through technical product"},{"startTime":1381.306,"endTime":1386.286,"body":"owners, a technical product owner."},{"startTime":1386.291,"endTime":1391.511,"body":"If you're saying like, I like the PM"},{"startTime":1386.291,"endTime":1391.511,"body":"market is saturated between people looking"},{"startTime":1391.511,"endTime":1398.471,"body":"for project managers, relabeled as product"},{"startTime":1391.511,"endTime":1398.471,"body":"managers versus actual product managers"},{"startTime":1398.881,"endTime":1404.311,"body":"I would say that the, the technical PO"},{"startTime":1398.881,"endTime":1404.311,"body":"role  I would argue it's less saturated"},{"startTime":1404.851,"endTime":1409.591,"body":"than the product manager market, cuz"},{"startTime":1404.851,"endTime":1409.591,"body":"usually people looking for technical"},{"startTime":1409.591,"endTime":1417.011,"body":"POS are people that are delivering"},{"startTime":1409.591,"endTime":1417.011,"body":"products to internal stakeholders."},{"startTime":1417.281,"endTime":1419.561,"body":"They're also technical"},{"startTime":1417.281,"endTime":1419.561,"body":"in nature themselves."},{"startTime":1419.741,"endTime":1420.521,"body":"Mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":1421.331,"endTime":1424.481,"body":"That is a job description or"},{"startTime":1421.331,"endTime":1424.481,"body":"a company that I skip over."},{"startTime":1424.481,"endTime":1427.631,"body":"As soon as I see technical"},{"startTime":1424.481,"endTime":1427.631,"body":"PO I'm like, okay, Nope done."},{"startTime":1427.631,"endTime":1427.871,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":1427.971,"endTime":1429.831,"body":"I also skip over them as well."},{"startTime":1429.931,"endTime":1432.511,"body":"But probably for different reasons."},{"startTime":1432.601,"endTime":1432.661,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1432.811,"endTime":1434.671,"body":"What are the reasons"},{"startTime":1432.811,"endTime":1434.671,"body":"that you skip over them?"},{"startTime":1435.061,"endTime":1439.946,"body":"I skip over them because, if I were to"},{"startTime":1435.061,"endTime":1439.946,"body":"read the job descriptions, typically"},{"startTime":1440.006,"endTime":1443.216,"body":"I will see in there somewhere that"},{"startTime":1440.006,"endTime":1443.216,"body":"they want some experience with"},{"startTime":1443.216,"endTime":1447.021,"body":"coding language, I'll see things like"},{"startTime":1443.216,"endTime":1447.021,"body":"SQL experience or Python program."},{"startTime":1447.026,"endTime":1449.211,"body":"So typically along with"},{"startTime":1447.026,"endTime":1449.211,"body":"it, I will actually."},{"startTime":1449.886,"endTime":1452.226,"body":"Coding I'm going like, okay."},{"startTime":1452.326,"endTime":1454.961,"body":"So they're asking for someone"},{"startTime":1452.326,"endTime":1454.961,"body":"to solve the, how sure."},{"startTime":1455.381,"endTime":1457.511,"body":"That doesn't allow me"},{"startTime":1455.381,"endTime":1457.511,"body":"to be a product owner."},{"startTime":1457.511,"endTime":1461.141,"body":"If I'm already being hired to go"},{"startTime":1457.511,"endTime":1461.141,"body":"ahead and figure out the how, or to"},{"startTime":1461.141,"endTime":1465.431,"body":"guide a team, to figure out the, how,"},{"startTime":1461.141,"endTime":1465.431,"body":"then I am not going to be permitted"},{"startTime":1465.431,"endTime":1470.831,"body":"to actually do my job as a PO I have"},{"startTime":1465.431,"endTime":1470.831,"body":"reasons why I would skip by those ones."},{"startTime":1470.891,"endTime":1471.401,"body":"Oh really?"},{"startTime":1471.461,"endTime":1471.941,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":1472.131,"endTime":1475.291,"body":"I, I would basically, yeah,"},{"startTime":1472.131,"endTime":1475.291,"body":"next what's the term that the"},{"startTime":1475.321,"endTime":1476.851,"body":"youngins use swipe swipe left."},{"startTime":1477.231,"endTime":1480.901,"body":"so, so the reason is this, that my"},{"startTime":1477.231,"endTime":1480.901,"body":"reason is I thought, think you're"},{"startTime":1480.901,"endTime":1483.841,"body":"gonna bringing a song and be like,"},{"startTime":1480.901,"endTime":1483.841,"body":"thank you next, like trying to be hip."},{"startTime":1484.651,"endTime":1485.811,"body":"I didn't know where to hip this."},{"startTime":1485.871,"endTime":1490.391,"body":"No the reason why I would turn those"},{"startTime":1485.871,"endTime":1490.391,"body":"opportunities down is because I"},{"startTime":1490.396,"endTime":1494.501,"body":"do not wanna work for some pointy"},{"startTime":1490.396,"endTime":1494.501,"body":"ahead, who thinks they want a"},{"startTime":1494.501,"endTime":1497.651,"body":"product person, but really they"},{"startTime":1494.501,"endTime":1497.651,"body":"want somebody who they can say."},{"startTime":1498.151,"endTime":1499.381,"body":"I, I know what I'm doing, right."},{"startTime":1499.381,"endTime":1500.791,"body":"You're just gonna follow along."},{"startTime":1500.791,"endTime":1501.541,"body":"You'll be my shadow."},{"startTime":1502.021,"endTime":1502.261,"body":"Ooh."},{"startTime":1502.261,"endTime":1504.271,"body":"What would they call someone like that?"},{"startTime":1504.442,"endTime":1508.522,"body":"I, I know backlog administrator  oh, wow."},{"startTime":1509.242,"endTime":1510.772,"body":"That's log admin, backlog."},{"startTime":1510.772,"endTime":1511.162,"body":"Admin."},{"startTime":1511.432,"endTime":1512.152,"body":"Love, love that."},{"startTime":1512.152,"endTime":1514.462,"body":"You're in charge of this"},{"startTime":1512.152,"endTime":1514.462,"body":"section of the backlog."},{"startTime":1514.612,"endTime":1518.262,"body":"Technical PO like I I'm kind of with"},{"startTime":1514.612,"endTime":1518.262,"body":"you on that was like Hey, your job."},{"startTime":1518.637,"endTime":1520.347,"body":"To talk to customers."},{"startTime":1521.007,"endTime":1525.417,"body":"I'm gonna tell you mm-hmm  like, I like"},{"startTime":1521.007,"endTime":1525.417,"body":"the pushback of that one is super easy."},{"startTime":1525.447,"endTime":1532.227,"body":"Anytime I see tactical PO as a job"},{"startTime":1525.447,"endTime":1532.227,"body":"title, I assume that they work for the"},{"startTime":1532.827,"endTime":1535.617,"body":"development focused wing in the company."},{"startTime":1535.677,"endTime":1539.527,"body":"Mm-hmm  in some way, shape or"},{"startTime":1535.677,"endTime":1539.527,"body":"form CIO, CTO, whatever they don't"},{"startTime":1539.527,"endTime":1541.567,"body":"work for a product organization."},{"startTime":1541.627,"endTime":1543.217,"body":"They work for the technical organization."},{"startTime":1543.247,"endTime":1543.487,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1543.577,"endTime":1547.311,"body":"Mm-hmm . And I went through a period"},{"startTime":1543.577,"endTime":1547.311,"body":"where I thought that this would be a good"},{"startTime":1547.315,"endTime":1552.56,"body":"section a product section for me to, to"},{"startTime":1547.315,"endTime":1552.56,"body":"enter like early in my product career,"},{"startTime":1553.19,"endTime":1556.95,"body":"because I, I was like, well, I, I have"},{"startTime":1553.19,"endTime":1556.95,"body":"a lot of experience in technical teams."},{"startTime":1556.955,"endTime":1560.036,"body":"Mm-hmm  and like, I, I know like"},{"startTime":1556.955,"endTime":1560.036,"body":"a bunch of different programming"},{"startTime":1560.041,"endTime":1561.566,"body":"languages and SQL and stuff like that."},{"startTime":1561.716,"endTime":1563.096,"body":"Bunch of technologies, basically."},{"startTime":1563.101,"endTime":1563.156,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"startTime":1564.021,"endTime":1569.441,"body":"."},{"startTime":1564.021,"endTime":1569.441,"body":"So maybe it would be easy for me to get"},{"startTime":1569.441,"endTime":1572.901,"body":"development organizations, like when we"},{"startTime":1569.441,"endTime":1572.901,"body":"did the podcast about the different types"},{"startTime":1572.906,"endTime":1577.191,"body":"of teams, mm-hmm,  where enabling teams"},{"startTime":1572.906,"endTime":1577.191,"body":"and platform teams and stuff like that."},{"startTime":1577.246,"endTime":1582.646,"body":"Well maybe I can get my foot in the door"},{"startTime":1577.246,"endTime":1582.646,"body":"by working for a enabling platform team"},{"startTime":1582.976,"endTime":1588.266,"body":"where basically your job as a team and"},{"startTime":1582.976,"endTime":1588.266,"body":"a product owner is just to enable what"},{"startTime":1588.266,"endTime":1590.191,"body":"SAFe calls systems, teams, other teams."},{"startTime":1590.196,"endTime":1590.701,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1591.391,"endTime":1596.126,"body":"Right where all you do is extend the"},{"startTime":1591.391,"endTime":1596.126,"body":"architectural runway of your company."},{"startTime":1596.41,"endTime":1596.5,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1596.505,"endTime":1598.03,"body":"And, and, and that's your roadmap."},{"startTime":1598.03,"endTime":1600.97,"body":"Your roadmap basically is like,"},{"startTime":1598.03,"endTime":1600.97,"body":"what are all the things technically"},{"startTime":1600.97,"endTime":1605.09,"body":"that we're gonna do to make the"},{"startTime":1600.97,"endTime":1605.09,"body":"lives of the other teams, easier."},{"startTime":1605.535,"endTime":1607.485,"body":"And I was like, that's,"},{"startTime":1605.535,"endTime":1607.485,"body":"that's kind of a cool job."},{"startTime":1607.485,"endTime":1611.265,"body":"If you think about it, it really is,"},{"startTime":1607.485,"endTime":1611.265,"body":"especially to your point about somebody"},{"startTime":1611.385,"endTime":1613.155,"body":"wanting to break into the field, right?"},{"startTime":1613.335,"endTime":1613.545,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1613.575,"endTime":1616.635,"body":"But I do have an example"},{"startTime":1613.575,"endTime":1616.635,"body":"or actually two, right?"},{"startTime":1616.635,"endTime":1620.835,"body":"Where a technical bent in"},{"startTime":1616.635,"endTime":1620.835,"body":"somebody who comes in as a"},{"startTime":1620.835,"endTime":1624.255,"body":"product person is advantageous."},{"startTime":1624.705,"endTime":1627.465,"body":"So one is, and I've seen this firsthand."},{"startTime":1627.625,"endTime":1633.155,"body":"I know when I worked at Boeing as a"},{"startTime":1627.625,"endTime":1633.155,"body":"contractor, they have products in, in"},{"startTime":1633.155,"endTime":1634.685,"body":"any definition they're products, right."},{"startTime":1634.685,"endTime":1638.495,"body":"But they, they're not sold to the"},{"startTime":1634.685,"endTime":1638.495,"body":"individual they they're sold to"},{"startTime":1639.125,"endTime":1642.185,"body":"integrators, meaning they they're sold"},{"startTime":1639.125,"endTime":1642.185,"body":"to companies that buy their products"},{"startTime":1642.185,"endTime":1644.075,"body":"and integrated into their product."},{"startTime":1644.585,"endTime":1647.795,"body":"So over and above building"},{"startTime":1644.585,"endTime":1647.795,"body":"aircraft, they do that."},{"startTime":1648.185,"endTime":1653.225,"body":"And so a product person for such"},{"startTime":1648.185,"endTime":1653.225,"body":"a product, if they're not at least"},{"startTime":1653.225,"endTime":1656.135,"body":"appreciative of the technology,"},{"startTime":1653.225,"endTime":1656.135,"body":"they don't have to be experts, but"},{"startTime":1656.14,"endTime":1659.225,"body":"they have to at least understand"},{"startTime":1656.14,"endTime":1659.225,"body":"high level what's going on."},{"startTime":1659.615,"endTime":1662.915,"body":"They would be at a disadvantage, I'd"},{"startTime":1659.615,"endTime":1662.915,"body":"say, I mean, I've seen that happen."},{"startTime":1663.125,"endTime":1667.895,"body":"I've also seen the flip side, which is"},{"startTime":1663.125,"endTime":1667.895,"body":"somebody brand new as a product owner"},{"startTime":1668.445,"endTime":1670.635,"body":"came in as a technical product owner."},{"startTime":1670.64,"endTime":1675.065,"body":"Learned a little bit about what"},{"startTime":1670.64,"endTime":1675.065,"body":"this is high level technology terms."},{"startTime":1675.305,"endTime":1675.365,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1675.425,"endTime":1678.515,"body":"And they were very effective"},{"startTime":1675.425,"endTime":1678.515,"body":"dealing with their counterparts"},{"startTime":1678.515,"endTime":1679.835,"body":"at the other organizations."},{"startTime":1680.045,"endTime":1681.035,"body":"They are the clients."},{"startTime":1681.255,"endTime":1685.0,"body":"In order to bridge that communication"},{"startTime":1681.255,"endTime":1685.0,"body":"that worked remarkably well, the other"},{"startTime":1685.0,"endTime":1689.2,"body":"industry, and I don't have any experience"},{"startTime":1685.0,"endTime":1689.2,"body":"in this is potentially I'm saying might be"},{"startTime":1689.205,"endTime":1694.91,"body":"the, the pharmaceutical industry where if"},{"startTime":1689.205,"endTime":1694.91,"body":"you're dealing with, as a pharmaceutical"},{"startTime":1695.0,"endTime":1696.62,"body":"company, if you're dealing with."},{"startTime":1697.535,"endTime":1702.055,"body":"Or if you're dealing with manufacturers,"},{"startTime":1697.535,"endTime":1702.055,"body":"they're your clients really?"},{"startTime":1702.175,"endTime":1704.935,"body":"Mm-hmm . And so if you can't"},{"startTime":1702.175,"endTime":1704.935,"body":"speak, at least some of that"},{"startTime":1704.935,"endTime":1707.065,"body":"language, it may be a disadvantage."},{"startTime":1707.635,"endTime":1712.165,"body":"See, but I, that that's"},{"startTime":1707.635,"endTime":1712.165,"body":"domain knowledge, so, right."},{"startTime":1712.165,"endTime":1713.305,"body":"So, okay."},{"startTime":1713.31,"endTime":1716.935,"body":"So that, so I think I, so what I'm"},{"startTime":1713.31,"endTime":1716.935,"body":"hearing is, so when you're dealing"},{"startTime":1716.935,"endTime":1722.065,"body":"with a customer there's benefit to"},{"startTime":1716.935,"endTime":1722.065,"body":"having domain knowledge, I, and, and"},{"startTime":1722.065,"endTime":1725.815,"body":"I believe that wholeheartedly, that's"},{"startTime":1722.065,"endTime":1725.815,"body":"why I am in product a hundred percent."},{"startTime":1725.815,"endTime":1729.685,"body":"I'm a passionate advocate for healthcare"},{"startTime":1725.815,"endTime":1729.685,"body":"information technology as a registered"},{"startTime":1729.685,"endTime":1733.655,"body":"nurse in just making it better for."},{"startTime":1734.155,"endTime":1739.165,"body":"providers, patients, family members,"},{"startTime":1734.155,"endTime":1739.165,"body":"users of healthcare technology, right."},{"startTime":1739.245,"endTime":1744.115,"body":"Mm-hmm  and I can bring my"},{"startTime":1739.245,"endTime":1744.115,"body":"domain experience and experience"},{"startTime":1744.115,"endTime":1746.125,"body":"with that type of transition."},{"startTime":1746.665,"endTime":1750.685,"body":"So then I think the differentiation"},{"startTime":1746.665,"endTime":1750.685,"body":"here is what you're saying is that you"},{"startTime":1750.685,"endTime":1755.685,"body":"don't necessarily need like this isn't"},{"startTime":1750.685,"endTime":1755.685,"body":"about being a technical product owner."},{"startTime":1755.685,"endTime":1758.085,"body":"In other words, I am a,"},{"startTime":1755.685,"endTime":1758.085,"body":"I used to be a developer."},{"startTime":1758.085,"endTime":1759.525,"body":"So now I can do this."},{"startTime":1759.555,"endTime":1764.865,"body":"It's about saying, you know what,"},{"startTime":1759.555,"endTime":1764.865,"body":"I'm familiar with whatever type of"},{"startTime":1764.87,"endTime":1769.125,"body":"technology we are developing in far as"},{"startTime":1764.87,"endTime":1769.125,"body":"this platform or whatever it is, maybe"},{"startTime":1769.125,"endTime":1773.905,"body":"concerned that we are, we are developing"},{"startTime":1769.125,"endTime":1773.905,"body":"for our internal customers, right?"},{"startTime":1774.105,"endTime":1776.325,"body":"So that's a little different,"},{"startTime":1774.105,"endTime":1776.325,"body":"that's still the same thing."},{"startTime":1776.33,"endTime":1777.945,"body":"That's still domain knowledge."},{"startTime":1778.44,"endTime":1782.85,"body":"And not necessarily a"},{"startTime":1778.44,"endTime":1782.85,"body":"specific coding language."},{"startTime":1783.0,"endTime":1783.3,"body":"Oh no, no."},{"startTime":1783.3,"endTime":1784.29,"body":"I'm not saying right."},{"startTime":1784.29,"endTime":1788.13,"body":"That's much, much lower level from what"},{"startTime":1784.29,"endTime":1788.13,"body":"I'm saying, not coding language, for sure."},{"startTime":1788.4,"endTime":1791.4,"body":"So if you're, you can say it's"},{"startTime":1788.4,"endTime":1791.4,"body":"domain knowledge, but it's"},{"startTime":1791.4,"endTime":1793.17,"body":"technical domain knowledge."},{"startTime":1793.175,"endTime":1797.04,"body":"Mm-hmm . So if your company"},{"startTime":1793.175,"endTime":1797.04,"body":"is dealing with customers that"},{"startTime":1797.12,"endTime":1798.86,"body":"have your counterparts, right."},{"startTime":1798.92,"endTime":1802.01,"body":"Speaking a certain language,"},{"startTime":1798.92,"endTime":1802.01,"body":"not programming language,"},{"startTime":1802.34,"endTime":1803.6,"body":"just some terminology."},{"startTime":1804.41,"endTime":1806.15,"body":"If you don't know that, yes, it will."},{"startTime":1806.42,"endTime":1810.44,"body":"It will be a hindrance to you probably"},{"startTime":1806.42,"endTime":1810.44,"body":"mm-hmm  and this is not going deep"},{"startTime":1810.44,"endTime":1813.2,"body":"into like coding or all of that stuff."},{"startTime":1813.2,"endTime":1813.53,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1813.74,"endTime":1816.02,"body":"You don't have to know"},{"startTime":1813.74,"endTime":1816.02,"body":"CPT codes for instance."},{"startTime":1816.02,"endTime":1816.42,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":1816.44,"endTime":1818.51,"body":"We just have to know what"},{"startTime":1816.44,"endTime":1818.51,"body":"they are, how they're used."},{"startTime":1818.51,"endTime":1819.41,"body":"They're used for billing."},{"startTime":1819.59,"endTime":1819.77,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1819.77,"endTime":1824.81,"body":"You know, they, they use for compensation"},{"startTime":1819.77,"endTime":1824.81,"body":"in terms of RVs or whatever it is, right."},{"startTime":1825.56,"endTime":1827.84,"body":"Alphabet soup, but you"},{"startTime":1825.56,"endTime":1827.84,"body":"need to know just that."},{"startTime":1827.84,"endTime":1828.59,"body":"That's all I know."},{"startTime":1828.86,"endTime":1830.6,"body":"I mean, but, but I'm not in the industry."},{"startTime":1830.78,"endTime":1836.558,"body":"Mm-hmm  so somebody coming in should I"},{"startTime":1830.78,"endTime":1836.558,"body":"think be given at least that level of"},{"startTime":1836.558,"endTime":1838.958,"body":"an overview, so they're aware that's it?"},{"startTime":1839.018,"endTime":1841.418,"body":"That's where it stops so"},{"startTime":1839.018,"endTime":1841.418,"body":"they can communicate better."},{"startTime":1841.748,"endTime":1841.958,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1842.275,"endTime":1844.245,"body":"So Brian, with your point"},{"startTime":1842.275,"endTime":1844.245,"body":"that you made earlier."},{"startTime":1844.465,"endTime":1844.825,"body":"Question."},{"startTime":1844.825,"endTime":1850.385,"body":"So do you think that when you spoke"},{"startTime":1844.825,"endTime":1850.385,"body":"to that technical product owner and I"},{"startTime":1850.385,"endTime":1854.915,"body":"think that if we can differentiate out"},{"startTime":1850.385,"endTime":1854.915,"body":"the technical product owner where we're"},{"startTime":1854.915,"endTime":1857.285,"body":"talking about domain knowledge, right?"},{"startTime":1857.29,"endTime":1860.855,"body":"So I'm gonna use that even though, so"},{"startTime":1857.29,"endTime":1860.855,"body":"not necessarily a coder, but someone that"},{"startTime":1860.86,"endTime":1864.035,"body":"understands whatever it is that we're"},{"startTime":1860.86,"endTime":1864.035,"body":"actually trying to build, or certainly"},{"startTime":1864.035,"endTime":1868.355,"body":"nomenclature of that so that we can speak"},{"startTime":1864.035,"endTime":1868.355,"body":"with and understand the customer, right?"},{"startTime":1868.475,"endTime":1872.805,"body":"Yeah but you were speaking to"},{"startTime":1868.475,"endTime":1872.805,"body":"the technical product owner"},{"startTime":1872.865,"endTime":1875.265,"body":"and you thought what a cool job"},{"startTime":1872.865,"endTime":1875.265,"body":"I have experienced with this."},{"startTime":1875.27,"endTime":1875.955,"body":"I can bring in."},{"startTime":1876.495,"endTime":1880.135,"body":"Have you found that to be in"},{"startTime":1876.495,"endTime":1880.135,"body":"your experience, potentially a"},{"startTime":1880.135,"endTime":1883.415,"body":"detriment and, and, and, and I'll"},{"startTime":1880.135,"endTime":1883.415,"body":"see this a little bit in saying."},{"startTime":1884.265,"endTime":1890.365,"body":"I find that dependent on the application"},{"startTime":1884.265,"endTime":1890.365,"body":"I'm working on, there's always, you never"},{"startTime":1890.365,"endTime":1893.995,"body":"walk into a product typically that you"},{"startTime":1890.365,"endTime":1893.995,"body":"don't have to learn something about right."},{"startTime":1894.0,"endTime":1896.155,"body":"Mm-hmm  so you always have"},{"startTime":1894.0,"endTime":1896.155,"body":"to learn something about it."},{"startTime":1896.155,"endTime":1896.515,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1896.855,"endTime":1900.924,"body":"So always I'm needing to learn current"},{"startTime":1896.855,"endTime":1900.924,"body":"state and there's always some new"},{"startTime":1900.924,"endTime":1903.144,"body":"nomenclature and new, new technology."},{"startTime":1903.144,"endTime":1906.112,"body":"There's tons of things that every"},{"startTime":1903.144,"endTime":1906.112,"body":"other, every company you work for is"},{"startTime":1906.112,"endTime":1913.682,"body":"working a little differently but I"},{"startTime":1906.112,"endTime":1913.682,"body":"find it advantageous to me that I don't"},{"startTime":1913.712,"endTime":1917.462,"body":"ever have to kind of draw the line and"},{"startTime":1913.712,"endTime":1917.462,"body":"figure out, Ooh, am I delving into the,"},{"startTime":1917.462,"endTime":1919.762,"body":"how am I questioning my developers?"},{"startTime":1920.552,"endTime":1921.032,"body":"I can't."},{"startTime":1921.032,"endTime":1922.382,"body":"And won't do that because I don't know."},{"startTime":1923.162,"endTime":1930.542,"body":"So I am 100% relying on and automatically"},{"startTime":1923.162,"endTime":1930.542,"body":"trusting in the fact that my team as"},{"startTime":1930.542,"endTime":1935.672,"body":"a team will work together and make"},{"startTime":1930.542,"endTime":1935.672,"body":"sure that the product that we're"},{"startTime":1935.672,"endTime":1939.397,"body":"developing from the, how, how they're"},{"startTime":1935.672,"endTime":1939.397,"body":"figuring it out, how, how to do it."},{"startTime":1940.217,"endTime":1945.347,"body":"I obviously have the opportunity to, to,"},{"startTime":1940.217,"endTime":1945.347,"body":"to see that and see it come to life and"},{"startTime":1945.347,"endTime":1947.537,"body":"make sure that it's meeting my needs."},{"startTime":1948.077,"endTime":1951.287,"body":"But when it comes to lifting it up under"},{"startTime":1948.077,"endTime":1951.287,"body":"the covers and seeing what the code looks"},{"startTime":1951.287,"endTime":1953.617,"body":"like and all that, I'm not a part of that."},{"startTime":1953.617,"endTime":1956.437,"body":"And I don't, and, and I don't"},{"startTime":1953.617,"endTime":1956.437,"body":"even need to think about where"},{"startTime":1956.467,"endTime":1958.987,"body":"to draw that line because it's"},{"startTime":1956.467,"endTime":1958.987,"body":"not something I know how to do."},{"startTime":1959.787,"endTime":1963.837,"body":"If we take an example, it might help kind"},{"startTime":1959.787,"endTime":1963.837,"body":"of elucidate what we're trying to say."},{"startTime":1964.047,"endTime":1969.797,"body":"So let's say you're working in a"},{"startTime":1964.047,"endTime":1969.797,"body":"technology company software development,"},{"startTime":1969.797,"endTime":1975.197,"body":"perhaps, and you're coming in from"},{"startTime":1969.797,"endTime":1975.197,"body":"a background that is completely"},{"startTime":1975.202,"endTime":1980.097,"body":"non-technical mm-hmm , let's just say"},{"startTime":1975.202,"endTime":1980.097,"body":"that and the industry is pick an industry."},{"startTime":1980.097,"endTime":1981.147,"body":"It doesn't matter what it is."},{"startTime":1981.387,"endTime":1983.757,"body":"Mm-hmm , let's say you don't have"},{"startTime":1981.387,"endTime":1983.757,"body":"that domain knowledge either."},{"startTime":1983.777,"endTime":1984.197,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"startTime":1984.302,"endTime":1985.712,"body":"so we'll take that out of the equation."},{"startTime":1986.342,"endTime":1988.072,"body":"So now there's two levels of."},{"startTime":1988.212,"endTime":1993.372,"body":"Of kind of knowledge that, that I'm saying"},{"startTime":1988.212,"endTime":1993.372,"body":"that we're we're distinguishing here."},{"startTime":1993.372,"endTime":1993.702,"body":"Really."},{"startTime":1993.822,"endTime":1997.872,"body":"One is the level where you can"},{"startTime":1993.822,"endTime":1997.872,"body":"have an intelligent conversation"},{"startTime":1997.872,"endTime":2004.022,"body":"with your customers or anybody else"},{"startTime":1997.872,"endTime":2004.022,"body":"about and the other is the danger"},{"startTime":2004.027,"endTime":2008.897,"body":"of influencing I'll say negatively"},{"startTime":2004.027,"endTime":2008.897,"body":"or positively your dev team."},{"startTime":2009.077,"endTime":2009.317,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2009.322,"endTime":2012.917,"body":"Mm-hmm  and I think to me, at least"},{"startTime":2009.322,"endTime":2012.917,"body":"those two are completely separate."},{"startTime":2013.097,"endTime":2018.047,"body":"So an example might be you come in and"},{"startTime":2013.097,"endTime":2018.047,"body":"into an organization and, and you learn"},{"startTime":2018.047,"endTime":2021.907,"body":"a little bit about the technology,"},{"startTime":2018.047,"endTime":2021.907,"body":"but not technical stuff at all."},{"startTime":2021.937,"endTime":2025.637,"body":"You know, that your dev teams"},{"startTime":2021.937,"endTime":2025.637,"body":"are using Python that your"},{"startTime":2026.077,"endTime":2027.347,"body":"solution is hosted on the cloud."},{"startTime":2027.457,"endTime":2029.957,"body":"Mm-hmm , that's, that's the"},{"startTime":2027.457,"endTime":2029.957,"body":"stuff I'm talking about."},{"startTime":2029.987,"endTime":2032.237,"body":"Mm-hmm  so when you meet with"},{"startTime":2029.987,"endTime":2032.237,"body":"somebody, you say, wow, we"},{"startTime":2032.237,"endTime":2033.677,"body":"pro you know, we're Acme, Inc."},{"startTime":2033.977,"endTime":2037.457,"body":"We provide this and this and this,"},{"startTime":2033.977,"endTime":2037.457,"body":"our solutions hosted on the cloud."},{"startTime":2037.457,"endTime":2039.647,"body":"And some of the technologies"},{"startTime":2037.457,"endTime":2039.647,"body":"we use include Python."},{"startTime":2040.577,"endTime":2042.677,"body":"You're not gonna influence"},{"startTime":2040.577,"endTime":2042.677,"body":"any developer with that."},{"startTime":2042.677,"endTime":2042.797,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2042.887,"endTime":2043.957,"body":"I that's just like basics."},{"startTime":2044.047,"endTime":2048.702,"body":"Right, right to them anyway, mm-hmm"},{"startTime":2044.047,"endTime":2048.702,"body":"so that is one end of the spectrum."},{"startTime":2048.702,"endTime":2049.752,"body":"The other end of the spectrum."},{"startTime":2050.307,"endTime":2054.567,"body":"Where you go in and say, ah, I see"},{"startTime":2050.307,"endTime":2054.567,"body":"your, you still using angular 2.0,"},{"startTime":2054.627,"endTime":2057.837,"body":"you haven't upgraded right here"},{"startTime":2054.627,"endTime":2057.837,"body":"are all the benefits, like you're"},{"startTime":2057.837,"endTime":2059.577,"body":"way in the weeds, leave it alone."},{"startTime":2059.607,"endTime":2062.007,"body":"Mm-hmm  so that is the"},{"startTime":2059.607,"endTime":2062.007,"body":"other end of the spectrum."},{"startTime":2062.007,"endTime":2062.307,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2062.547,"endTime":2066.472,"body":"And so coming from a non-technical"},{"startTime":2062.547,"endTime":2066.472,"body":"background you cannot do the latter,"},{"startTime":2066.532,"endTime":2070.252,"body":"which is fine, but coming from a"},{"startTime":2066.532,"endTime":2070.252,"body":"technical background, it's a challenge."},{"startTime":2070.252,"endTime":2072.682,"body":"This is where I was gonna go with"},{"startTime":2070.252,"endTime":2072.682,"body":"the answer to the earlier question."},{"startTime":2073.192,"endTime":2078.412,"body":"If you come from a technical background,"},{"startTime":2073.192,"endTime":2078.412,"body":"it's a challenge to not go deep diving"},{"startTime":2078.412,"endTime":2082.972,"body":"in mm-hmm  because that's a natural"},{"startTime":2078.412,"endTime":2082.972,"body":"bent that everybody's technical has."},{"startTime":2083.332,"endTime":2083.902,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2084.182,"endTime":2086.892,"body":"I feel like you just put one up"},{"startTime":2084.182,"endTime":2086.892,"body":"next to the net for me to spike"},{"startTime":2086.892,"endTime":2089.472,"body":"down, because like, exactly this"},{"startTime":2086.892,"endTime":2089.472,"body":"one's easy to argue against."},{"startTime":2089.472,"endTime":2094.302,"body":"Cuz if you are in the service of"},{"startTime":2089.472,"endTime":2094.302,"body":"providing APIs for developers, your"},{"startTime":2094.302,"endTime":2098.802,"body":"product manager who interacts with"},{"startTime":2094.302,"endTime":2098.802,"body":"the community should be able to talk"},{"startTime":2098.802,"endTime":2102.612,"body":"specifically to the API endpoints and"},{"startTime":2098.802,"endTime":2102.612,"body":"what the vision is for the API endpoints."},{"startTime":2102.672,"endTime":2106.662,"body":"And you're getting in a technical"},{"startTime":2102.672,"endTime":2106.662,"body":"discussion with your customers"},{"startTime":2106.662,"endTime":2110.092,"body":"who mainly are developers or what"},{"startTime":2106.662,"endTime":2110.092,"body":"we were talking about before."},{"startTime":2110.092,"endTime":2114.352,"body":"If you're a technical product owner"},{"startTime":2110.092,"endTime":2114.352,"body":"and your job is to create tools for"},{"startTime":2114.352,"endTime":2117.822,"body":"other developers on other teams inside"},{"startTime":2114.352,"endTime":2117.822,"body":"of your organization, those are your"},{"startTime":2117.822,"endTime":2122.142,"body":"customers, which I kind of feel is like"},{"startTime":2117.822,"endTime":2122.142,"body":"also, like that's like the softball"},{"startTime":2122.142,"endTime":2125.682,"body":"of product management is like, your,"},{"startTime":2122.142,"endTime":2125.682,"body":"your customers are internal customers."},{"startTime":2125.712,"endTime":2129.762,"body":"Mm-hmm  so like, you literally could"},{"startTime":2125.712,"endTime":2129.762,"body":"like walk over to their remote aside."},{"startTime":2129.882,"endTime":2130.062,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2130.067,"endTime":2132.132,"body":"You literally could walk over"},{"startTime":2130.067,"endTime":2132.132,"body":"to their desk and be like, Hey,"},{"startTime":2132.132,"endTime":2133.032,"body":"what do you think about this?"},{"startTime":2133.032,"endTime":2136.872,"body":"Like mm-hmm, , that's, that's like"},{"startTime":2133.032,"endTime":2136.872,"body":"your, your customers are captive"},{"startTime":2136.872,"endTime":2137.832,"body":"inside of your organization."},{"startTime":2137.832,"endTime":2139.812,"body":"Like that's, that's easy street."},{"startTime":2140.112,"endTime":2141.342,"body":"For product management."},{"startTime":2141.342,"endTime":2145.452,"body":"It's I don't need to develop a"},{"startTime":2141.342,"endTime":2145.452,"body":"bunch of tools and instrumentation"},{"startTime":2145.452,"endTime":2146.322,"body":"or whatever to figure out."},{"startTime":2146.322,"endTime":2150.012,"body":"Cause I can walk over to a person's"},{"startTime":2146.322,"endTime":2150.012,"body":"desk and look over their shoulder"},{"startTime":2150.012,"endTime":2152.442,"body":"as they use my feature easy street."},{"startTime":2152.542,"endTime":2153.365,"body":"what I'm talking about."},{"startTime":2153.41,"endTime":2158.91,"body":"Breaks down when you get to that level"},{"startTime":2153.41,"endTime":2158.91,"body":"of , my customers are internal or even"},{"startTime":2158.91,"endTime":2161.82,"body":"if you're not even if your customers"},{"startTime":2158.91,"endTime":2161.82,"body":"are not internal, but if your product"},{"startTime":2161.88,"endTime":2167.017,"body":"is overly technical like like I think"},{"startTime":2161.88,"endTime":2167.017,"body":"of, I think of like, for example there's"},{"startTime":2167.017,"endTime":2168.722,"body":"like services like Datadog and stuff."},{"startTime":2168.722,"endTime":2173.942,"body":"For example, it's like you install their"},{"startTime":2168.722,"endTime":2173.942,"body":"product in your cloud on a server, and"},{"startTime":2173.942,"endTime":2179.392,"body":"then you point it to their, their product"},{"startTime":2173.942,"endTime":2179.392,"body":"and they tell you like your uptime of"},{"startTime":2179.392,"endTime":2184.132,"body":"all your services and your computers"},{"startTime":2179.392,"endTime":2184.132,"body":"and your milliseconds of response time,"},{"startTime":2184.252,"endTime":2190.162,"body":"they basically monitor your services,"},{"startTime":2184.252,"endTime":2190.162,"body":"uptime mm-hmm  or your software's uptime"},{"startTime":2190.502,"endTime":2195.452,"body":"by doing some real general stuff, but"},{"startTime":2190.502,"endTime":2195.452,"body":"like that's all real low level details."},{"startTime":2195.452,"endTime":2201.872,"body":"It's unlikely a customer is going to"},{"startTime":2195.452,"endTime":2201.872,"body":"bring that low level of detail, but"},{"startTime":2201.872,"endTime":2205.172,"body":"when you're providing that to other"},{"startTime":2201.872,"endTime":2205.172,"body":"development teams, and that is your"},{"startTime":2205.172,"endTime":2210.692,"body":"product, if your product is overly"},{"startTime":2205.172,"endTime":2210.692,"body":"technical, overly, I guess overly that's."},{"startTime":2210.842,"endTime":2211.132,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2211.132,"endTime":2212.162,"body":"That's the key, key word."},{"startTime":2212.162,"endTime":2212.222,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2212.352,"endTime":2215.072,"body":"But, but in that situation, even,"},{"startTime":2212.352,"endTime":2215.072,"body":"right, why wouldn't you just bring"},{"startTime":2215.072,"endTime":2219.332,"body":"one of your tech leads or develop or"},{"startTime":2215.072,"endTime":2219.332,"body":"in to facilitate that conversation?"},{"startTime":2219.452,"endTime":2224.522,"body":"At the risk of delving into a topic"},{"startTime":2219.452,"endTime":2224.522,"body":"that is part of a whole nother podcast."},{"startTime":2224.822,"endTime":2230.792,"body":"Why don't you do that is because at"},{"startTime":2224.822,"endTime":2230.792,"body":"that point, what stops you from becoming"},{"startTime":2230.882,"endTime":2235.502,"body":"a, just a product marketing person,"},{"startTime":2230.882,"endTime":2235.502,"body":"rather than a product manager and no"},{"startTime":2235.502,"endTime":2239.732,"body":"longer being a product manager where"},{"startTime":2235.502,"endTime":2239.732,"body":"basically you are uninvolved from"},{"startTime":2239.732,"endTime":2246.302,"body":"the technical details, uninvolved,"},{"startTime":2239.732,"endTime":2246.302,"body":"uninformed, unable to hang in the"},{"startTime":2246.302,"endTime":2251.237,"body":"conversation about the technical details"},{"startTime":2246.302,"endTime":2251.237,"body":"of a technical product and now you're"},{"startTime":2251.237,"endTime":2253.007,"body":"becoming more of a marketing person."},{"startTime":2253.487,"endTime":2255.377,"body":"You, yeah, you're a product admin really?"},{"startTime":2255.437,"endTime":2256.907,"body":"That's, that's where it boils down."},{"startTime":2257.147,"endTime":2257.437,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2257.442,"endTime":2263.797,"body":"So like that, that I I'm very concerned"},{"startTime":2257.442,"endTime":2263.797,"body":"about having no hand on the wheel anymore,"},{"startTime":2264.097,"endTime":2267.647,"body":"because you say, well, my, I have to"},{"startTime":2264.097,"endTime":2267.647,"body":"get my development lead to talk to you"},{"startTime":2267.647,"endTime":2272.357,"body":"about quite literally anything involving"},{"startTime":2267.647,"endTime":2272.357,"body":"the product, because it's so technical."},{"startTime":2272.857,"endTime":2276.787,"body":"I can't, I can't tell you at all, but"},{"startTime":2272.857,"endTime":2276.787,"body":"that may well be a valid use case right."},{"startTime":2276.787,"endTime":2280.327,"body":"In those kinds of market segments,"},{"startTime":2276.787,"endTime":2280.327,"body":"or that may be valid because"},{"startTime":2280.537,"endTime":2282.127,"body":"this stuff is highly technical."},{"startTime":2282.127,"endTime":2285.427,"body":"I don't know, like that's, that's"},{"startTime":2282.127,"endTime":2285.427,"body":"this just hire technical people."},{"startTime":2285.577,"endTime":2287.167,"body":"So if in your marketing organization,"},{"startTime":2287.477,"endTime":2291.117,"body":"I would have to say if you're a"},{"startTime":2287.477,"endTime":2291.117,"body":"product manager in that situation"},{"startTime":2291.117,"endTime":2293.127,"body":"that you need to be aware, right?"},{"startTime":2293.127,"endTime":2298.017,"body":"You need to be aware of the"},{"startTime":2293.127,"endTime":2298.017,"body":"overarching product and the how those"},{"startTime":2298.022,"endTime":2301.642,"body":"connections, what you're selling,"},{"startTime":2298.022,"endTime":2301.642,"body":"what benefit it's what, what benefits"},{"startTime":2301.642,"endTime":2303.957,"body":"it is providing all of those things."},{"startTime":2303.962,"endTime":2310.087,"body":"But when you're getting super technical,"},{"startTime":2303.962,"endTime":2310.087,"body":"that it should be, the developer speaking,"},{"startTime":2310.087,"endTime":2313.417,"body":"for instance, with a developer, like"},{"startTime":2310.087,"endTime":2313.417,"body":"where we're getting into that technic,"},{"startTime":2313.417,"endTime":2318.157,"body":"if we're getting into the, the weeds"},{"startTime":2313.417,"endTime":2318.157,"body":"that the, how we're getting into"},{"startTime":2318.157,"endTime":2324.657,"body":"the, how that is not something that"},{"startTime":2318.157,"endTime":2324.657,"body":"I expect to be able to explain well,"},{"startTime":2324.747,"endTime":2328.917,"body":"I certainly should be able to, as a"},{"startTime":2324.747,"endTime":2328.917,"body":"product owner, product manager, be able"},{"startTime":2328.922,"endTime":2334.317,"body":"to explain, you know Generally, but if"},{"startTime":2328.922,"endTime":2334.317,"body":"we're getting into the weeds there, I,"},{"startTime":2334.322,"endTime":2339.387,"body":"for sure want my dev team there and their"},{"startTime":2334.322,"endTime":2339.387,"body":"dev team, if that's who we're speaking"},{"startTime":2339.387,"endTime":2344.487,"body":"with, if that's who our customer is,"},{"startTime":2339.387,"endTime":2344.487,"body":"to be able to dive into the details."},{"startTime":2345.237,"endTime":2347.667,"body":"And I think that's my other"},{"startTime":2345.237,"endTime":2347.667,"body":"point is context is key here."},{"startTime":2347.697,"endTime":2354.757,"body":"So having not so certainly having dealt"},{"startTime":2347.697,"endTime":2354.757,"body":"with, for instance products, which were."},{"startTime":2355.257,"endTime":2361.137,"body":"very analytical where I'm literally"},{"startTime":2355.257,"endTime":2361.137,"body":"the product owner for so many"},{"startTime":2361.137,"endTime":2368.592,"body":"inputs and data crunching from every"},{"startTime":2361.137,"endTime":2368.592,"body":"EMR and lab system and hospital."},{"startTime":2368.592,"endTime":2372.192,"body":"And so so I could speak to those things."},{"startTime":2372.252,"endTime":2377.892,"body":"Mm-hmm  could I get into the the minutia"},{"startTime":2372.252,"endTime":2377.892,"body":"of the actual enterprise architecture"},{"startTime":2377.892,"endTime":2379.692,"body":"and what's happening at what point?"},{"startTime":2379.692,"endTime":2380.652,"body":"Absolutely not."},{"startTime":2381.012,"endTime":2381.282,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2381.282,"endTime":2382.302,"body":"That's a conversation."},{"startTime":2382.302,"endTime":2385.362,"body":"If there were questions that needed to"},{"startTime":2382.302,"endTime":2385.362,"body":"be asked in regards to those things."},{"startTime":2385.752,"endTime":2386.112,"body":"No."},{"startTime":2386.172,"endTime":2387.972,"body":"That's time for me to bring in."},{"startTime":2388.032,"endTime":2388.322,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2388.327,"endTime":2389.382,"body":"You know, my team."},{"startTime":2389.412,"endTime":2391.692,"body":"Yeah so I think context is key."},{"startTime":2392.372,"endTime":2393.572,"body":"Everything we're talking about."},{"startTime":2393.602,"endTime":2396.392,"body":"Falls under the banner"},{"startTime":2393.602,"endTime":2396.392,"body":"of working with users."},{"startTime":2396.422,"endTime":2401.392,"body":"That's, that's where I'm going with with"},{"startTime":2396.422,"endTime":2401.392,"body":"what I'm about to say, because if your"},{"startTime":2401.482,"endTime":2407.002,"body":"users of your software are developers"},{"startTime":2401.482,"endTime":2407.002,"body":"and you, the product manager can't work"},{"startTime":2407.002,"endTime":2408.892,"body":"with them, cuz you're too in the weeds."},{"startTime":2408.902,"endTime":2411.572,"body":"Are you a product manager at that point?"},{"startTime":2412.062,"endTime":2416.502,"body":"You could say, well, well maybe that's"},{"startTime":2412.062,"endTime":2416.502,"body":"just a very small slice of my software."},{"startTime":2416.742,"endTime":2418.392,"body":"What if that's all of your software?"},{"startTime":2418.422,"endTime":2423.852,"body":"Mm-hmm  what if you were only the,"},{"startTime":2418.422,"endTime":2423.852,"body":"the PM for the API part of LinkedIn,"},{"startTime":2423.852,"endTime":2425.142,"body":"for example, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2425.142,"endTime":2428.292,"body":"Like API of LinkedIn, terrible."},{"startTime":2428.382,"endTime":2431.232,"body":"One of the worst APIs I've"},{"startTime":2428.382,"endTime":2431.232,"body":"ever worked with LinkedIn."},{"startTime":2431.232,"endTime":2432.312,"body":"Hopefully you're listening."},{"startTime":2432.317,"endTime":2432.462,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2432.622,"endTime":2432.782,"body":"LinkedIn."},{"startTime":2433.502,"endTime":2438.222,"body":"So, the integration between YouTube"},{"startTime":2433.502,"endTime":2438.222,"body":"and LinkedIn, Microsoft and Google, for"},{"startTime":2438.227,"endTime":2440.992,"body":"example, they don't allow certain things."},{"startTime":2441.112,"endTime":2442.432,"body":"Mm-hmm  on purpose."},{"startTime":2442.522,"endTime":2442.732,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2442.732,"endTime":2447.292,"body":"They don't necessarily put it in a"},{"startTime":2442.732,"endTime":2447.292,"body":"documentation, but  if I'm in the audience"},{"startTime":2447.532,"endTime":2454.392,"body":"consuming their API and I find out that"},{"startTime":2447.532,"endTime":2454.392,"body":"for example, if I post through the UI, the"},{"startTime":2454.612,"endTime":2461.802,"body":"UI team has gone through because they're"},{"startTime":2454.612,"endTime":2461.802,"body":"magnanimous and allowed my YouTube."},{"startTime":2462.302,"endTime":2465.572,"body":"This is an example, a"},{"startTime":2462.302,"endTime":2465.572,"body":"very specific example."},{"startTime":2466.352,"endTime":2469.112,"body":"It could be anything"},{"startTime":2466.352,"endTime":2469.112,"body":"could be maybe, maybe not."},{"startTime":2469.802,"endTime":2475.202,"body":"For example, if I use the UI for"},{"startTime":2469.802,"endTime":2475.202,"body":"LinkedIn and I add a YouTube video,"},{"startTime":2475.322,"endTime":2479.552,"body":"it automatically pulls the thumbnail"},{"startTime":2475.322,"endTime":2479.552,"body":"through automatically, automatically."},{"startTime":2480.527,"endTime":2485.267,"body":". But if I go through their API"},{"startTime":2480.527,"endTime":2485.267,"body":"and I add the same link, it"},{"startTime":2485.267,"endTime":2487.037,"body":"shows me a black thumbnail."},{"startTime":2487.077,"endTime":2489.677,"body":"Mm-hmm  because it doesn't"},{"startTime":2487.077,"endTime":2489.677,"body":"automatically through the API."},{"startTime":2489.857,"endTime":2493.997,"body":"It doesn't automatically pull the"},{"startTime":2489.857,"endTime":2493.997,"body":"thumbnail through and that's desired."},{"startTime":2494.207,"endTime":2499.697,"body":"Mm-hmm  because a team doesn't care about"},{"startTime":2494.207,"endTime":2499.697,"body":"integrating with Google mm-hmm  okay."},{"startTime":2499.847,"endTime":2504.587,"body":"So the team that maintains the front"},{"startTime":2499.847,"endTime":2504.587,"body":"end experience versus the team that"},{"startTime":2504.587,"endTime":2507.947,"body":"purely concentrates on the backend"},{"startTime":2504.587,"endTime":2507.947,"body":"experience, they're different teams."},{"startTime":2507.977,"endTime":2513.977,"body":"Mm-hmm,  probably different POS slash PMs"},{"startTime":2507.977,"endTime":2513.977,"body":"in this instance, different experiences."},{"startTime":2514.007,"endTime":2517.657,"body":"Mm-hmm  they care about different"},{"startTime":2514.007,"endTime":2517.657,"body":"things, different gardens and"},{"startTime":2517.657,"endTime":2519.157,"body":"different walled gardens, right?"},{"startTime":2519.307,"endTime":2519.637,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2519.667,"endTime":2519.877,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2519.877,"endTime":2521.947,"body":"You think they would talk to"},{"startTime":2519.877,"endTime":2521.947,"body":"each other cuz they're doing"},{"startTime":2521.947,"endTime":2522.847,"body":"the same functionalities."},{"startTime":2522.877,"endTime":2526.237,"body":"Oh, that weakens, the team it's"},{"startTime":2522.877,"endTime":2526.237,"body":"a novel communication concept."},{"startTime":2526.327,"endTime":2526.807,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2526.812,"endTime":2526.817,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2526.927,"endTime":2530.227,"body":"But again, they're working"},{"startTime":2526.927,"endTime":2530.227,"body":"with the same user mm-hmm"},{"startTime":2530.902,"endTime":2537.012,"body":"But are they like is the user who's"},{"startTime":2530.902,"endTime":2537.012,"body":"setting up a hundred YouTube videos"},{"startTime":2537.012,"endTime":2541.942,"body":"a week and needs that stuff linked"},{"startTime":2537.012,"endTime":2541.942,"body":"added to LinkedIn to, to support the"},{"startTime":2541.942,"endTime":2547.232,"body":"channel versus the, power YouTube"},{"startTime":2541.942,"endTime":2547.232,"body":"user who's manually adding those."},{"startTime":2547.232,"endTime":2549.722,"body":"Like, are they the same user?"},{"startTime":2550.082,"endTime":2552.032,"body":"Wouldn't they, but there"},{"startTime":2550.082,"endTime":2552.032,"body":"might be some overlap."},{"startTime":2552.542,"endTime":2553.352,"body":"There might be different."},{"startTime":2553.352,"endTime":2553.892,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":2553.952,"endTime":2556.442,"body":"I think some different, there's"},{"startTime":2553.952,"endTime":2556.442,"body":"definitely a different persona"},{"startTime":2556.447,"endTime":2559.282,"body":"that could potentially be parsed"},{"startTime":2556.447,"endTime":2559.282,"body":"out there, but they're different."},{"startTime":2559.282,"endTime":2559.402,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2559.412,"endTime":2560.682,"body":"But the question is."},{"startTime":2561.182,"endTime":2566.612,"body":"Would the results that they're looking"},{"startTime":2561.182,"endTime":2566.612,"body":"for, be beneficial if they lined up."},{"startTime":2566.822,"endTime":2568.112,"body":"So the answer is no."},{"startTime":2568.112,"endTime":2568.562,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2568.562,"endTime":2572.072,"body":"Well, they probably should have"},{"startTime":2568.562,"endTime":2572.072,"body":"lined up before they implemented"},{"startTime":2572.077,"endTime":2573.602,"body":"any kind of, no, that's my point."},{"startTime":2573.632,"endTime":2578.642,"body":"Like I think the desirable outcome,"},{"startTime":2573.632,"endTime":2578.642,"body":"regardless of those two personas that you"},{"startTime":2578.912,"endTime":2585.032,"body":"described would be the same so in, in that"},{"startTime":2578.912,"endTime":2585.032,"body":"example, I know I already know that like"},{"startTime":2585.032,"endTime":2588.932,"body":"the, the front end team and the API team"},{"startTime":2585.032,"endTime":2588.932,"body":"or whatever, they they're different teams."},{"startTime":2588.992,"endTime":2589.712,"body":"They're different teams."},{"startTime":2589.717,"endTime":2591.212,"body":"They probably have different PMs."},{"startTime":2591.632,"endTime":2593.132,"body":"They probably get paid a ton of money."},{"startTime":2593.137,"endTime":2597.562,"body":"They probably out of Seattle or Renton"},{"startTime":2593.137,"endTime":2597.562,"body":"obviously they did not talk to each other."},{"startTime":2597.632,"endTime":2598.432,"body":"Mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":2598.437,"endTime":2601.852,"body":"When they implemented the"},{"startTime":2598.437,"endTime":2601.852,"body":"functionality, you would think that"},{"startTime":2601.852,"endTime":2603.742,"body":"the people implementing the back end."},{"startTime":2604.372,"endTime":2608.992,"body":"should have talked to users implementing"},{"startTime":2604.372,"endTime":2608.992,"body":"the back end while at the same time,"},{"startTime":2609.352,"endTime":2614.752,"body":"interfacing with the front end team as"},{"startTime":2609.352,"endTime":2614.752,"body":"a user representing their own users."},{"startTime":2615.322,"endTime":2617.812,"body":"So it's, it's just like different circles."},{"startTime":2618.052,"endTime":2618.952,"body":"Oh, it's just gonna go there."},{"startTime":2619.372,"endTime":2620.092,"body":"Different diagram."},{"startTime":2620.097,"endTime":2621.172,"body":"Almost like a ven diagram."},{"startTime":2621.172,"endTime":2621.592,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2621.622,"endTime":2622.192,"body":"Different diagram."},{"startTime":2622.702,"endTime":2622.972,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2623.182,"endTime":2626.392,"body":"Could they not, I mean, if you have"},{"startTime":2623.182,"endTime":2626.392,"body":"a product owner for your back end and"},{"startTime":2626.392,"endTime":2629.872,"body":"your front end, I mean, if you have"},{"startTime":2626.392,"endTime":2629.872,"body":"personas or users that you are using,"},{"startTime":2629.922,"endTime":2633.792,"body":"could we not just have the product"},{"startTime":2629.922,"endTime":2633.792,"body":"owners without the backend product"},{"startTime":2633.792,"endTime":2640.002,"body":"owners in kind of interacting with"},{"startTime":2633.792,"endTime":2640.002,"body":"their own users maybe, or be a part of."},{"startTime":2640.557,"endTime":2645.087,"body":"You know, be included in those user"},{"startTime":2640.557,"endTime":2645.087,"body":"discussions, which is something I advocate"},{"startTime":2645.147,"endTime":2650.257,"body":"very, very strongly for is getting my"},{"startTime":2645.147,"endTime":2650.257,"body":"teams, enterprise architect my development"},{"startTime":2650.262,"endTime":2655.237,"body":"teams, anybody H C D UX design, anybody"},{"startTime":2650.262,"endTime":2655.237,"body":"I, anybody I want them involved."},{"startTime":2655.237,"endTime":2655.567,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2655.567,"endTime":2656.547,"body":"Yeah yeah."},{"startTime":2656.607,"endTime":2661.017,"body":"So I think this speaks just a little"},{"startTime":2656.607,"endTime":2661.017,"body":"bit to the, what, perhaps I wrote"},{"startTime":2661.017,"endTime":2663.537,"body":"this down because you mentioned it"},{"startTime":2661.017,"endTime":2663.537,"body":"before, and I think we might be able"},{"startTime":2663.537,"endTime":2669.047,"body":"to pull this outta here and that is PM"},{"startTime":2663.537,"endTime":2669.047,"body":"versus PO so internal versus external"},{"startTime":2669.047,"endTime":2672.677,"body":"mm-hmm,  closer to leader versus"},{"startTime":2669.047,"endTime":2672.677,"body":"farther away from leadership, right?"},{"startTime":2672.677,"endTime":2674.03,"body":"Mm-hmm  conflict of interest."},{"startTime":2674.321,"endTime":2674.681,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2674.711,"endTime":2679.571,"body":"So when we're talking about the"},{"startTime":2674.711,"endTime":2679.571,"body":"representation, if we use the definition"},{"startTime":2679.571,"endTime":2684.131,"body":"of what we used initially in this, in"},{"startTime":2679.571,"endTime":2684.131,"body":"this podcast of the PO versus a PM,"},{"startTime":2684.631,"endTime":2690.846,"body":"and you mentioned trusts the trust of"},{"startTime":2684.631,"endTime":2690.846,"body":"leadership to a PM versus a PO, and"},{"startTime":2690.846,"endTime":2694.386,"body":"how closely they might be aligned to"},{"startTime":2690.846,"endTime":2694.386,"body":"them, that, that so on and so forth."},{"startTime":2694.416,"endTime":2698.226,"body":"Mm-hmm  we now have, and I"},{"startTime":2694.416,"endTime":2698.226,"body":"talked about incentives, right?"},{"startTime":2698.226,"endTime":2699.336,"body":"So we now have a PM."},{"startTime":2699.336,"endTime":2704.376,"body":"That's incentivized to make sure that"},{"startTime":2699.336,"endTime":2704.376,"body":"leadership marketing sales is happy."},{"startTime":2704.496,"endTime":2708.846,"body":"Mm-hmm . And I think that's what gives"},{"startTime":2704.496,"endTime":2708.846,"body":"a lot of times POS and PMs a really"},{"startTime":2708.846,"endTime":2712.476,"body":"bad name or a bad taste when it comes"},{"startTime":2708.846,"endTime":2712.476,"body":"to, when you see, hear developers and"},{"startTime":2712.476,"endTime":2716.166,"body":"scrum masters who are bad mouthing"},{"startTime":2712.476,"endTime":2716.166,"body":"POS and PMs, but yeah, there could"},{"startTime":2716.171,"endTime":2722.106,"body":"potentially be set up this real conflict"},{"startTime":2716.171,"endTime":2722.106,"body":"of interest, and we need that protection."},{"startTime":2722.164,"endTime":2726.214,"body":"And whether that's the PO or the scrum"},{"startTime":2722.164,"endTime":2726.214,"body":"master, the agile coach, or a combination"},{"startTime":2726.214,"endTime":2731.314,"body":"of all of those people to make sure that"},{"startTime":2726.214,"endTime":2731.314,"body":"our development team is being protected"},{"startTime":2731.314,"endTime":2735.11,"body":"and things aren't being shoved down their"},{"startTime":2731.314,"endTime":2735.11,"body":"throat from you know, leadership, because"},{"startTime":2735.115,"endTime":2740.12,"body":"if you have that hierarchy in place,"},{"startTime":2735.115,"endTime":2740.12,"body":"intentional or not just the virtue of"},{"startTime":2740.36,"endTime":2747.1,"body":"a name manager, insinuates, a level of"},{"startTime":2740.36,"endTime":2747.1,"body":"authority, which influences potentially"},{"startTime":2747.1,"endTime":2749.17,"body":"how things are perceived and received."},{"startTime":2749.175,"endTime":2753.46,"body":"Mm-hmm  by the development"},{"startTime":2749.175,"endTime":2753.46,"body":"team and creates potentially"},{"startTime":2753.46,"endTime":2754.93,"body":"this conflict of interest."},{"startTime":2754.96,"endTime":2755.14,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2755.32,"endTime":2758.37,"body":"I like, I see where you're going"},{"startTime":2755.32,"endTime":2758.37,"body":"with that one that was way down in"},{"startTime":2758.375,"endTime":2760.26,"body":"the agenda that I had to talk about."},{"startTime":2760.32,"endTime":2760.68,"body":"Oh, sorry."},{"startTime":2760.72,"endTime":2763.41,"body":"But I, but I kind of want, I didn't"},{"startTime":2760.72,"endTime":2763.41,"body":"know how we were gonna get there."},{"startTime":2763.415,"endTime":2765.85,"body":"So this is like, thank you for"},{"startTime":2763.415,"endTime":2765.85,"body":"getting us there you're welcome."},{"startTime":2766.35,"endTime":2767.48,"body":"When you're talking about."},{"startTime":2767.98,"endTime":2769.51,"body":"Across the organization."},{"startTime":2770.01,"endTime":2770.97,"body":"There are different levels."},{"startTime":2771.11,"endTime":2773.91,"body":"I, I like to say this when I'm on"},{"startTime":2771.11,"endTime":2773.91,"body":"contract and like, I don't get to do"},{"startTime":2773.91,"endTime":2776.64,"body":"this very often cuz now that I'm like"},{"startTime":2773.91,"endTime":2776.64,"body":"a permanent employee, I get to say"},{"startTime":2776.64,"endTime":2782.405,"body":"like that, there are different types of"},{"startTime":2776.64,"endTime":2782.405,"body":"prioritization and they're all relevant."},{"startTime":2783.035,"endTime":2786.345,"body":"One of which is the person"},{"startTime":2783.035,"endTime":2786.345,"body":"who screams the loudest."},{"startTime":2786.375,"endTime":2786.735,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2786.795,"endTime":2789.785,"body":"Another one is the highest paid"},{"startTime":2786.795,"endTime":2789.785,"body":"person in the room like that mm-hmm"},{"startTime":2790.035,"endTime":2791.625,"body":"different levels of prioritization."},{"startTime":2791.655,"endTime":2795.76,"body":"Like, I mean not, not good"},{"startTime":2791.655,"endTime":2795.76,"body":"prioritization, but Hey, those"},{"startTime":2795.76,"endTime":2797.23,"body":"are methods of prioritization."},{"startTime":2797.23,"endTime":2802.15,"body":"Mm-hmm  the, the, the people who scream"},{"startTime":2797.23,"endTime":2802.15,"body":"the loudest, they get this, this,"},{"startTime":2802.24,"endTime":2803.65,"body":"the squeaky wheel squeaky grease."},{"startTime":2803.65,"endTime":2804.342,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2804.43,"endTime":2806.23,"body":"That is a method of prioritization."},{"startTime":2806.23,"endTime":2808.09,"body":"whether it's efficient, effective."},{"startTime":2808.48,"endTime":2809.14,"body":"Good."},{"startTime":2809.2,"endTime":2811.36,"body":"Not good aside."},{"startTime":2811.72,"endTime":2812.77,"body":"We agree."},{"startTime":2812.83,"endTime":2820.78,"body":"That is a method so there needs to be a"},{"startTime":2812.83,"endTime":2820.78,"body":"forum, where they are having a constant"},{"startTime":2820.785,"endTime":2826.59,"body":"continuing conversation about these are"},{"startTime":2820.785,"endTime":2826.59,"body":"the top priorities in the organization."},{"startTime":2826.64,"endTime":2832.04,"body":"These are the, the top business problems"},{"startTime":2826.64,"endTime":2832.04,"body":"we're trying to solve that filters down"},{"startTime":2832.04,"endTime":2833.96,"body":"through the organization, to the teams."},{"startTime":2833.96,"endTime":2837.08,"body":"Mm-hmm  to the individual product"},{"startTime":2833.96,"endTime":2837.08,"body":"owners on the individual teams."},{"startTime":2837.44,"endTime":2839.99,"body":"Or we talked about before, if"},{"startTime":2837.44,"endTime":2839.99,"body":"you're Facebook, you're like"},{"startTime":2840.04,"endTime":2841.75,"body":"this is a team for the timeline."},{"startTime":2842.02,"endTime":2843.55,"body":"This is a team for marketplace."},{"startTime":2843.55,"endTime":2846.07,"body":"This is a team for I"},{"startTime":2843.55,"endTime":2846.07,"body":"don't embezzling money."},{"startTime":2846.07,"endTime":2849.04,"body":"What, whatever you do at Facebook, I don't"},{"startTime":2846.07,"endTime":2849.04,"body":"know what you do on Facebook whatever,"},{"startTime":2849.04,"endTime":2852.19,"body":"they are like the POS that are in charge"},{"startTime":2849.04,"endTime":2852.19,"body":"of each of those little functional areas."},{"startTime":2852.445,"endTime":2858.955,"body":"They grab from the higher level strategy,"},{"startTime":2852.445,"endTime":2858.955,"body":"what they can, that their teams can do."},{"startTime":2858.985,"endTime":2865.11,"body":"Mm-hmm  so that, that that is kind of"},{"startTime":2858.985,"endTime":2865.11,"body":"how you scale product mm-hmm, setting"},{"startTime":2865.11,"endTime":2870.77,"body":"that up to be effective in your"},{"startTime":2865.11,"endTime":2870.77,"body":"organization at a lot of places that I"},{"startTime":2870.77,"endTime":2874.77,"body":"have been like that is not done well."},{"startTime":2874.83,"endTime":2875.22,"body":"Yes,"},{"startTime":2875.76,"endTime":2879.83,"body":"I cut it straight to this because"},{"startTime":2875.76,"endTime":2879.83,"body":"I feel in order to set this up"},{"startTime":2879.83,"endTime":2884.66,"body":"effectively, you need effective agile"},{"startTime":2879.83,"endTime":2884.66,"body":"leadership in your organization."},{"startTime":2884.99,"endTime":2885.38,"body":"Hallelujah."},{"startTime":2885.38,"endTime":2886.22,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2886.22,"endTime":2886.97,"body":"Can I please?"},{"startTime":2886.97,"endTime":2887.42,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2887.92,"endTime":2889.72,"body":"It all starts at the top."},{"startTime":2889.725,"endTime":2893.92,"body":"If you don't have buyin, if you don't have"},{"startTime":2889.725,"endTime":2893.92,"body":"a vision, if you don't have people from"},{"startTime":2893.92,"endTime":2896.83,"body":"in and, and I heard you say filter down."},{"startTime":2897.25,"endTime":2898.42,"body":"I would argue that."},{"startTime":2899.14,"endTime":2900.7,"body":"I don't want it filtered down."},{"startTime":2900.94,"endTime":2902.26,"body":"Like I want, okay."},{"startTime":2902.26,"endTime":2908.89,"body":"We do need to work together to create that"},{"startTime":2902.26,"endTime":2908.89,"body":"number one to, so to, to use kind of the"},{"startTime":2908.92,"endTime":2914.26,"body":"the jargon that everybody's using, but"},{"startTime":2908.92,"endTime":2914.26,"body":"that north star, we, as an organization,"},{"startTime":2914.5,"endTime":2920.89,"body":"need to be, need to understand what our"},{"startTime":2914.5,"endTime":2920.89,"body":"vision is, what the hell are we building?"},{"startTime":2921.49,"endTime":2923.08,"body":"What are we trying to accomplish?"},{"startTime":2923.14,"endTime":2923.29,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2923.47,"endTime":2927.76,"body":"We should be able to ask anyone"},{"startTime":2923.47,"endTime":2927.76,"body":"at any level in our organization,"},{"startTime":2928.09,"endTime":2929.98,"body":"what are we here to do?"},{"startTime":2929.98,"endTime":2934.57,"body":"And they should all be able to answer"},{"startTime":2929.98,"endTime":2934.57,"body":"in basically the same exact manner."},{"startTime":2934.57,"endTime":2934.84,"body":"Oh  boy."},{"startTime":2934.9,"endTime":2941.06,"body":"And if we don't have that, then what"},{"startTime":2934.9,"endTime":2941.06,"body":"we have is confusion and a whole lot"},{"startTime":2941.06,"endTime":2942.92,"body":"of with them, what's in it for me."},{"startTime":2943.1,"endTime":2946.88,"body":"What are my incentives , I'm gonna just"},{"startTime":2943.1,"endTime":2946.88,"body":"get the biggest paycheck I can get."},{"startTime":2947.13,"endTime":2950.15,"body":"You just challenged 90% of the"},{"startTime":2947.13,"endTime":2950.15,"body":"organizations I was gonna say,"},{"startTime":2950.43,"endTime":2953.12,"body":"I know I did, even if you get"},{"startTime":2950.43,"endTime":2953.12,"body":"just the senior leadership."},{"startTime":2953.66,"endTime":2958.52,"body":"And just, just talk to each of 'em and go"},{"startTime":2953.66,"endTime":2958.52,"body":"write down what you think our vision is."},{"startTime":2958.52,"endTime":2959.66,"body":"why are we in business?"},{"startTime":2959.66,"endTime":2960.245,"body":"just talk about that."},{"startTime":2960.305,"endTime":2961.935,"body":"Forget about, to get my quarterly bonus."},{"startTime":2961.935,"endTime":2962.085,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2962.355,"endTime":2965.835,"body":"So you don't get confused between what's"},{"startTime":2962.355,"endTime":2965.835,"body":"the vision, what's the mission, right?"},{"startTime":2965.835,"endTime":2966.585,"body":"Forget about all that."},{"startTime":2966.585,"endTime":2967.515,"body":"Just right now."},{"startTime":2967.515,"endTime":2969.255,"body":"What are we in the business to do?"},{"startTime":2969.495,"endTime":2971.205,"body":"And then you gather their inputs, right."},{"startTime":2971.205,"endTime":2974.595,"body":"And you look at 'em and I bet"},{"startTime":2971.205,"endTime":2974.595,"body":"you, they don't all align."},{"startTime":2975.375,"endTime":2975.735,"body":"They don't."},{"startTime":2976.185,"endTime":2978.585,"body":"And if we don't because"},{"startTime":2976.185,"endTime":2978.585,"body":"of interests, right?"},{"startTime":2978.585,"endTime":2978.885,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2978.885,"endTime":2982.825,"body":"Because that whole thing about"},{"startTime":2978.885,"endTime":2982.825,"body":"building fiefdoms  and kingdoms."},{"startTime":2982.825,"endTime":2983.005,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2983.005,"endTime":2985.135,"body":"That's that's exactly"},{"startTime":2983.005,"endTime":2985.135,"body":"what I see out there."},{"startTime":2985.135,"endTime":2985.315,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2985.645,"endTime":2986.485,"body":"At the higher level."},{"startTime":2986.485,"endTime":2988.555,"body":"So, well, the utopian world."},{"startTime":2988.585,"endTime":2988.915,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2988.915,"endTime":2992.825,"body":"You've got an agile leader who"},{"startTime":2988.915,"endTime":2992.825,"body":"then interests other agile leaders."},{"startTime":2993.515,"endTime":2995.825,"body":"Not that they, they work for him."},{"startTime":2995.885,"endTime":2997.145,"body":"They, they all work together."},{"startTime":2997.205,"endTime":2997.625,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2997.655,"endTime":2999.795,"body":"In order to achieve a."},{"startTime":3000.565,"endTime":3001.165,"body":"Objective."},{"startTime":3001.405,"endTime":3001.495,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3001.495,"endTime":3002.845,"body":"Can I just take a word out of there?"},{"startTime":3002.905,"endTime":3003.295,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3003.355,"endTime":3005.155,"body":"Just leader, right."},{"startTime":3005.155,"endTime":3007.135,"body":"No, but it doesn't even"},{"startTime":3005.155,"endTime":3007.135,"body":"have to be Angard leader."},{"startTime":3007.135,"endTime":3010.435,"body":"Just the leader should"},{"startTime":3007.135,"endTime":3010.435,"body":"of any organization."},{"startTime":3010.675,"endTime":3017.455,"body":"Should be able to convey and convince"},{"startTime":3010.675,"endTime":3017.455,"body":"and have everyone in their organization."},{"startTime":3017.515,"endTime":3020.125,"body":"Organization have the conviction"},{"startTime":3017.515,"endTime":3020.125,"body":"and the understanding of"},{"startTime":3020.125,"endTime":3022.195,"body":"what they are there to do."},{"startTime":3022.585,"endTime":3022.765,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3022.915,"endTime":3025.615,"body":"I wanna do a podcast specifically on."},{"startTime":3026.155,"endTime":3031.075,"body":"Being the, this is Trisha's podcast,"},{"startTime":3026.155,"endTime":3031.075,"body":"by the way specifically on being the"},{"startTime":3031.075,"endTime":3036.805,"body":"first product manager to a startup,"},{"startTime":3031.075,"endTime":3036.805,"body":"when they decide that like the founder"},{"startTime":3036.955,"endTime":3040.675,"body":"doesn't wanna do it, or the, like the"},{"startTime":3036.955,"endTime":3040.675,"body":"founder is doing so many things, they"},{"startTime":3040.675,"endTime":3044.485,"body":"need to delegate some things to save"},{"startTime":3040.675,"endTime":3044.485,"body":"some of their time or to not work"},{"startTime":3044.515,"endTime":3046.075,"body":"80 hour weeks or whatever anymore."},{"startTime":3046.555,"endTime":3049.645,"body":"And they bring in a product manager"},{"startTime":3046.555,"endTime":3049.645,"body":"because I I've done this twice now in"},{"startTime":3049.645,"endTime":3054.305,"body":"my career where I've been the first"},{"startTime":3049.645,"endTime":3054.305,"body":"product manager to a startup and"},{"startTime":3054.305,"endTime":3056.195,"body":"separated the role from the founders."},{"startTime":3056.695,"endTime":3062.445,"body":"And what I found is you have to basically,"},{"startTime":3056.695,"endTime":3062.445,"body":"you, you have to pull out of that person."},{"startTime":3062.835,"endTime":3064.515,"body":"what is the vision?"},{"startTime":3064.515,"endTime":3066.615,"body":"What is, what is the future look like?"},{"startTime":3066.625,"endTime":3067.365,"body":"Mm-hmm , you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":3067.365,"endTime":3070.905,"body":"And sometimes you can pull it out"},{"startTime":3067.365,"endTime":3070.905,"body":"word for word verbatim and you can"},{"startTime":3070.905,"endTime":3073.065,"body":"get a real good idea in your head."},{"startTime":3073.215,"endTime":3076.425,"body":"Sometimes you have to kind of"},{"startTime":3073.215,"endTime":3076.425,"body":"make it up and bring them along."},{"startTime":3076.535,"endTime":3080.005,"body":"Especially for companies that are,"},{"startTime":3076.535,"endTime":3080.005,"body":"there are more than one founder mm-hmm"},{"startTime":3080.585,"endTime":3083.495,"body":"they usually conflict on what they"},{"startTime":3080.585,"endTime":3083.495,"body":"think the future's gonna look like."},{"startTime":3083.495,"endTime":3087.075,"body":"You have to meld the two together"},{"startTime":3083.495,"endTime":3087.075,"body":"until  all the founders agree."},{"startTime":3087.08,"endTime":3092.375,"body":"And then, then they're willing to delegate"},{"startTime":3087.08,"endTime":3092.375,"body":"to you cuz  until you are gonna carry"},{"startTime":3092.38,"endTime":3095.555,"body":"what they want forward to the future,"},{"startTime":3092.38,"endTime":3095.555,"body":"they're not gonna agree with you cuz"},{"startTime":3095.555,"endTime":3097.115,"body":"they're like, well we could be doing more."},{"startTime":3097.115,"endTime":3101.895,"body":"We could do other things or whatever"},{"startTime":3097.115,"endTime":3101.895,"body":"so  I think kind of what you said you,"},{"startTime":3102.255,"endTime":3105.145,"body":"they want a leader mm-hmm ,  they want,"},{"startTime":3102.255,"endTime":3105.145,"body":"they want a leader in that position."},{"startTime":3105.645,"endTime":3106.905,"body":"where is that taught?"},{"startTime":3107.085,"endTime":3112.215,"body":"In all your project manager classes and"},{"startTime":3107.085,"endTime":3112.215,"body":"all your portfolio, whatever budgeting"},{"startTime":3112.22,"endTime":3116.175,"body":"classes and all your little, get"},{"startTime":3112.22,"endTime":3116.175,"body":"every nickel and dime and capitalize"},{"startTime":3116.18,"endTime":3119.93,"body":"it over the next three years classes"},{"startTime":3116.18,"endTime":3119.93,"body":"and whatever, like real short on"},{"startTime":3119.93,"endTime":3121.55,"body":"leadership, all those programs, I think."},{"startTime":3121.55,"endTime":3122.39,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":3122.54,"endTime":3126.17,"body":"That's that's not like, but, but,"},{"startTime":3122.54,"endTime":3126.17,"body":"but that's the thing that propels"},{"startTime":3126.17,"endTime":3129.58,"body":"organizations forward is  we have"},{"startTime":3126.17,"endTime":3129.58,"body":"the organization we're at now."},{"startTime":3130.0,"endTime":3133.47,"body":"We want to be three years,"},{"startTime":3130.0,"endTime":3133.47,"body":"five years, whatever."},{"startTime":3133.47,"endTime":3138.13,"body":"In the future, the leader in X,"},{"startTime":3133.47,"endTime":3138.13,"body":"Y, Z, we wanna have these specific"},{"startTime":3138.13,"endTime":3141.82,"body":"companies or these specific"},{"startTime":3138.13,"endTime":3141.82,"body":"industries or these specific types"},{"startTime":3141.82,"endTime":3144.7,"body":"of businesses knowing that we are."},{"startTime":3145.225,"endTime":3148.105,"body":"The top person they think of"},{"startTime":3145.225,"endTime":3148.105,"body":"when they think of whatever."},{"startTime":3148.105,"endTime":3151.365,"body":"And that that's the type of"},{"startTime":3148.105,"endTime":3151.365,"body":"vision carrying forward, that"},{"startTime":3151.365,"endTime":3155.115,"body":"your product manager, if I'm"},{"startTime":3151.365,"endTime":3155.115,"body":"gonna throw a title on top of it."},{"startTime":3155.395,"endTime":3159.285,"body":"And a lot of times when I've been in"},{"startTime":3155.395,"endTime":3159.285,"body":"that position, when we start to do"},{"startTime":3159.285,"endTime":3164.059,"body":"the split, the way I describe to those"},{"startTime":3159.285,"endTime":3164.059,"body":"companies to, to the people in those"},{"startTime":3164.059,"endTime":3168.319,"body":"companies that are used to dealing with"},{"startTime":3164.059,"endTime":3168.319,"body":"the founder, mm-hmm,  people in support,"},{"startTime":3168.409,"endTime":3173.354,"body":"people in sales, people, in operations,"},{"startTime":3168.409,"endTime":3173.354,"body":"I try to explain to them, Hey, your"},{"startTime":3173.354,"endTime":3179.774,"body":"founder is separating this visionary"},{"startTime":3173.354,"endTime":3179.774,"body":"future thinking role from themselves."},{"startTime":3180.344,"endTime":3185.924,"body":"Like I continue to talk to them every"},{"startTime":3180.344,"endTime":3185.924,"body":"day, every week, whatever the cadence is"},{"startTime":3186.194,"endTime":3190.634,"body":"about where we are at now and how we get"},{"startTime":3186.194,"endTime":3190.634,"body":"to where they want to go in the future."},{"startTime":3191.261,"endTime":3194.291,"body":"And that, that might be a little bit of"},{"startTime":3191.261,"endTime":3194.291,"body":"the product owner versus product manager."},{"startTime":3194.391,"endTime":3197.961,"body":"If you were a startup, if you"},{"startTime":3194.391,"endTime":3197.961,"body":"truly are a startup and you bring"},{"startTime":3197.961,"endTime":3203.031,"body":"in a product owner for the first"},{"startTime":3197.961,"endTime":3203.031,"body":"time, like somebody specifically"},{"startTime":3203.031,"endTime":3206.241,"body":"to say, Hey, I have this vision of"},{"startTime":3203.031,"endTime":3206.241,"body":"where we want to go in the future."},{"startTime":3207.201,"endTime":3211.521,"body":"I'm a CEO, who's also a"},{"startTime":3207.201,"endTime":3211.521,"body":"founder of my company."},{"startTime":3212.211,"endTime":3216.831,"body":"I wanna bring somebody in who I"},{"startTime":3212.211,"endTime":3216.831,"body":"delegate the day to day activity"},{"startTime":3216.831,"endTime":3218.031,"body":"of working with a development."},{"startTime":3218.031,"endTime":3221.301,"body":"I have one development team, let's say"},{"startTime":3218.031,"endTime":3221.301,"body":"one or two, maybe two development teams."},{"startTime":3221.801,"endTime":3223.181,"body":"I can't sit with them every day."},{"startTime":3223.211,"endTime":3224.471,"body":"It's taking too much of my time."},{"startTime":3224.971,"endTime":3226.831,"body":"I need to delegate that"},{"startTime":3224.971,"endTime":3226.831,"body":"role off to somebody else."},{"startTime":3227.221,"endTime":3231.481,"body":"So basically I, the CEO slash"},{"startTime":3227.221,"endTime":3231.481,"body":"founder of the company, I'm still"},{"startTime":3231.481,"endTime":3236.341,"body":"the product manager, but I need"},{"startTime":3231.481,"endTime":3236.341,"body":"a product owner to sit with my."},{"startTime":3236.841,"endTime":3242.331,"body":"Every day to carry out my vision of"},{"startTime":3236.841,"endTime":3242.331,"body":"the product with that team, maintain"},{"startTime":3242.331,"endTime":3244.411,"body":"a backlog, keep the backlog on track."},{"startTime":3244.751,"endTime":3249.901,"body":"You know what I mean, change, pivot as the"},{"startTime":3244.751,"endTime":3249.901,"body":"vision and company and direction stuff,"},{"startTime":3249.901,"endTime":3254.691,"body":"changes and pivots  in that example, does"},{"startTime":3249.901,"endTime":3254.691,"body":"that change anything we're talking about?"},{"startTime":3255.191,"endTime":3255.651,"body":"Do you think?"},{"startTime":3256.641,"endTime":3257.83,"body":"I think so."},{"startTime":3257.83,"endTime":3262.3,"body":"Are you saying, so I think the thing"},{"startTime":3257.83,"endTime":3262.3,"body":"that's missing here is if we do not"},{"startTime":3262.3,"endTime":3268.72,"body":"have the leader, the CEO and founder"},{"startTime":3262.3,"endTime":3268.72,"body":"here also evangelizing and buying"},{"startTime":3268.72,"endTime":3273.175,"body":"into this vision,  then it's lost."},{"startTime":3273.175,"endTime":3274.165,"body":"I mean, no, no, I, yeah."},{"startTime":3274.195,"endTime":3274.975,"body":"Do you know what I'm saying?"},{"startTime":3274.975,"endTime":3281.035,"body":"I mean, yes, you can assist this CEO"},{"startTime":3274.975,"endTime":3281.035,"body":"and founder to hone that mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":3281.335,"endTime":3288.445,"body":"But that has to be owned and professed and"},{"startTime":3281.335,"endTime":3288.445,"body":"just ingrained in, this is literally the"},{"startTime":3288.445,"endTime":3290.065,"body":"foundation of the culture of your company."},{"startTime":3290.095,"endTime":3292.755,"body":"Mm-hmm  and that has to"},{"startTime":3290.095,"endTime":3292.755,"body":"come from leadership."},{"startTime":3292.845,"endTime":3293.115,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3294.105,"endTime":3299.12,"body":"But in this example, I'm trying to go with"},{"startTime":3294.105,"endTime":3299.12,"body":"the beginning of the podcast, the Mike"},{"startTime":3299.12,"endTime":3302.315,"body":"Miller definition where like the, like"},{"startTime":3299.12,"endTime":3302.315,"body":"the CEO obviously would talk to everybody."},{"startTime":3302.315,"endTime":3305.375,"body":"He talked to all the customers, they"},{"startTime":3302.315,"endTime":3305.375,"body":"talk to all the business prospect."},{"startTime":3305.375,"endTime":3308.705,"body":"They talk to people who maybe would"},{"startTime":3305.375,"endTime":3308.705,"body":"never sign up for the software."},{"startTime":3308.705,"endTime":3311.285,"body":"People that do sign up for the"},{"startTime":3308.705,"endTime":3311.285,"body":"software, they're all over the place."},{"startTime":3311.445,"endTime":3315.665,"body":"Mm-hmm  some of those conversations,"},{"startTime":3311.445,"endTime":3315.665,"body":"they bring the PO with mm-hmm  some,"},{"startTime":3315.665,"endTime":3319.865,"body":"they wouldn't cuz again, when"},{"startTime":3315.665,"endTime":3319.865,"body":"you're a founder of the company,"},{"startTime":3320.405,"endTime":3321.545,"body":"Again, you're all over the place."},{"startTime":3321.735,"endTime":3324.46,"body":"You'd probably be in both camps."},{"startTime":3324.62,"endTime":3330.035,"body":"you you'd probably be laying down"},{"startTime":3324.62,"endTime":3330.035,"body":"the vision for the future and"},{"startTime":3330.425,"endTime":3333.455,"body":"you'd be a little bit and like,"},{"startTime":3330.425,"endTime":3333.455,"body":"well, we need these key features."},{"startTime":3333.46,"endTime":3335.175,"body":"Mm-hmm  to sell certain"},{"startTime":3333.46,"endTime":3335.175,"body":"customers or whatever."},{"startTime":3335.265,"endTime":3336.545,"body":"you'd kind of be living in both worlds."},{"startTime":3336.695,"endTime":3340.715,"body":"So from, from the it's difficult"},{"startTime":3336.695,"endTime":3340.715,"body":"from the Mike Miller perspective"},{"startTime":3340.715,"endTime":3343.265,"body":"of, the PM is external focus."},{"startTime":3343.265,"endTime":3345.125,"body":"Whereas the PO is internal focused."},{"startTime":3345.515,"endTime":3346.745,"body":"It's a little difficult because."},{"startTime":3347.165,"endTime":3351.005,"body":"If you consider the founder"},{"startTime":3347.165,"endTime":3351.005,"body":"of the company, a PM in mm-hmm"},{"startTime":3351.485,"endTime":3353.135,"body":"embodying the spirit of a PM."},{"startTime":3353.435,"endTime":3353.645,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":3353.735,"endTime":3359.315,"body":"They are doing both every PM from"},{"startTime":3353.735,"endTime":3359.315,"body":"that perspective is both a PM and a"},{"startTime":3359.315,"endTime":3365.005,"body":"PO mm-hmm . I would argue that the PO"},{"startTime":3359.315,"endTime":3365.005,"body":"you, as the person who was hired on"},{"startTime":3365.005,"endTime":3368.905,"body":"to take some of this responsibility"},{"startTime":3365.005,"endTime":3368.905,"body":"off of the CEO, founder slash PM yeah."},{"startTime":3369.355,"endTime":3370.255,"body":"Are also a PM."},{"startTime":3370.885,"endTime":3377.575,"body":"So you are not going to be able to"},{"startTime":3370.885,"endTime":3377.575,"body":"function solely as, as we have defined as"},{"startTime":3377.575,"endTime":3384.085,"body":"a product owner that you would also need"},{"startTime":3377.575,"endTime":3384.085,"body":"to be involved in those externally facing."},{"startTime":3384.355,"endTime":3388.345,"body":"So you would also be"},{"startTime":3384.355,"endTime":3388.345,"body":"walking that line yeah."},{"startTime":3388.35,"endTime":3389.425,"body":"Between both roles."},{"startTime":3389.425,"endTime":3392.97,"body":"So then do we just call it"},{"startTime":3389.425,"endTime":3392.97,"body":"product management, right?"},{"startTime":3392.97,"endTime":3393.78,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":3393.785,"endTime":3393.84,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3394.44,"endTime":3398.39,"body":"I would agree that the good PMs are"},{"startTime":3394.44,"endTime":3398.39,"body":"doing both  now we get into what"},{"startTime":3398.39,"endTime":3399.98,"body":"what's, what constitutes a good PM."},{"startTime":3399.98,"endTime":3402.54,"body":"Well, you can't like like"},{"startTime":3399.98,"endTime":3402.54,"body":"now we talk about incentives."},{"startTime":3402.57,"endTime":3405.115,"body":"Well, no, I mean, we're out of pocket"},{"startTime":3402.57,"endTime":3405.115,"body":"for what, what we started talking"},{"startTime":3405.115,"endTime":3407.455,"body":"about in this specific example."},{"startTime":3407.455,"endTime":3410.815,"body":"Like we're, we're talking about"},{"startTime":3407.455,"endTime":3410.815,"body":"my experience in this example,"},{"startTime":3411.585,"endTime":3415.775,"body":"in this example, it's the CEO"},{"startTime":3411.585,"endTime":3415.775,"body":"and founder mm-hmm , but it could"},{"startTime":3415.775,"endTime":3418.175,"body":"be anybody in the organization."},{"startTime":3418.295,"endTime":3422.145,"body":"It could be a salesperson actually"},{"startTime":3418.295,"endTime":3422.145,"body":"a lot of, a lot of POS slash PMs,"},{"startTime":3422.15,"endTime":3425.615,"body":"probably they couple with sales people"},{"startTime":3422.15,"endTime":3425.615,"body":"probably more than they coupled with"},{"startTime":3425.615,"endTime":3427.415,"body":"the C level executives and marketing."},{"startTime":3427.415,"endTime":3427.565,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3427.565,"endTime":3429.065,"body":"In, in my experience in marketing."},{"startTime":3429.065,"endTime":3429.425,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3429.43,"endTime":3429.465,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3429.675,"endTime":3431.325,"body":"The topic of being the first."},{"startTime":3431.825,"endTime":3438.215,"body":"PM hire at a company like the, the"},{"startTime":3431.825,"endTime":3438.215,"body":"reason that those C level people or"},{"startTime":3438.215,"endTime":3440.135,"body":"the, the it's not even C level people."},{"startTime":3440.14,"endTime":3444.195,"body":"Mm-hmm,  the reason that those founders,"},{"startTime":3440.14,"endTime":3444.195,"body":"are working that long is because they"},{"startTime":3444.195,"endTime":3446.505,"body":"are trying to separate that role."},{"startTime":3446.51,"endTime":3448.215,"body":"Mm-hmm , they're, they're"},{"startTime":3446.51,"endTime":3448.215,"body":"doing multiple roles."},{"startTime":3448.215,"endTime":3449.325,"body":"That's why they're working that long."},{"startTime":3449.415,"endTime":3452.805,"body":"Mm-hmm , they're doing multiple"},{"startTime":3449.415,"endTime":3452.805,"body":"roles and they brought you on so"},{"startTime":3452.805,"endTime":3454.545,"body":"they can separate those roles."},{"startTime":3454.545,"endTime":3459.045,"body":"So the idea is you need to get"},{"startTime":3454.545,"endTime":3459.045,"body":"in and wedge yourself between we,"},{"startTime":3459.05,"endTime":3462.77,"body":"we started talking about this topic"},{"startTime":3459.05,"endTime":3462.77,"body":"because we started talking about"},{"startTime":3462.77,"endTime":3467.59,"body":"working with customers, stakeholders,"},{"startTime":3462.77,"endTime":3467.59,"body":"use, whatever you wanna say, because"},{"startTime":3467.595,"endTime":3470.98,"body":"usually the founder is the person who"},{"startTime":3467.595,"endTime":3470.98,"body":"started working with those people."},{"startTime":3470.98,"endTime":3474.19,"body":"This, the founder is the person"},{"startTime":3470.98,"endTime":3474.19,"body":"who started attacking the business"},{"startTime":3474.195,"endTime":3475.51,"body":"problem, the customer problem."},{"startTime":3475.99,"endTime":3476.35,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":3476.59,"endTime":3477.34,"body":"And now you are."},{"startTime":3477.84,"endTime":3482.67,"body":"Kind of wedging yourself in between"},{"startTime":3477.84,"endTime":3482.67,"body":"the two to say, Hey, you worry"},{"startTime":3482.67,"endTime":3487.14,"body":"about like, if it's a CEO, for"},{"startTime":3482.67,"endTime":3487.14,"body":"example, you worry about the, the,"},{"startTime":3487.16,"endTime":3488.6,"body":"the general health of the business."},{"startTime":3488.6,"endTime":3491.55,"body":"And mm-hmm, , you know what I mean,"},{"startTime":3488.6,"endTime":3491.55,"body":"other things and I'll worry about taking"},{"startTime":3491.55,"endTime":3493.98,"body":"care of the customers and you have"},{"startTime":3491.55,"endTime":3493.98,"body":"to kind of wedge yourself in there."},{"startTime":3494.22,"endTime":3498.78,"body":"Mm-hmm  there, there are specific"},{"startTime":3494.22,"endTime":3498.78,"body":"challenges as being the first P coming"},{"startTime":3498.78,"endTime":3502.11,"body":"into an organization, especially a"},{"startTime":3498.78,"endTime":3502.11,"body":"startup but I just wanna go back to"},{"startTime":3502.11,"endTime":3503.94,"body":"an, using an analogy for that, right?"},{"startTime":3503.94,"endTime":3506.97,"body":"Let's say you open a restaurant,"},{"startTime":3503.94,"endTime":3506.97,"body":"it's your restaurant."},{"startTime":3507.12,"endTime":3507.63,"body":"You open it."},{"startTime":3508.23,"endTime":3510.33,"body":"You're the chef, you open it."},{"startTime":3510.33,"endTime":3513.18,"body":"You're you're also the restaurant"},{"startTime":3510.33,"endTime":3513.18,"body":"manager or whatever else, 15"},{"startTime":3513.18,"endTime":3514.95,"body":"other titles, you're doing it all."},{"startTime":3515.4,"endTime":3519.66,"body":"And you work with your customers mm-hmm"},{"startTime":3515.4,"endTime":3519.66,"body":"and you just don't have time to sleep."},{"startTime":3519.9,"endTime":3523.08,"body":"So you're gonna hire"},{"startTime":3519.9,"endTime":3523.08,"body":"a, a line cook, right."},{"startTime":3523.08,"endTime":3525.27,"body":"So somebody comes in and does their stuff."},{"startTime":3525.52,"endTime":3526.69,"body":"so you've got some help there."},{"startTime":3527.19,"endTime":3531.45,"body":"Eases a burden on you a little"},{"startTime":3527.19,"endTime":3531.45,"body":"bit, but now you need a sous chef"},{"startTime":3531.93,"endTime":3533.22,"body":"and then you need a pastry chef."},{"startTime":3533.25,"endTime":3535.02,"body":"You just can't do everything yourself."},{"startTime":3535.47,"endTime":3540.0,"body":"But these people coming in have a"},{"startTime":3535.47,"endTime":3540.0,"body":"challenge, these roles, right they have"},{"startTime":3540.0,"endTime":3543.81,"body":"a challenge because they normally have"},{"startTime":3540.0,"endTime":3543.81,"body":"to please you cuz you, you entrusted"},{"startTime":3543.81,"endTime":3545.61,"body":"this person, you can't you hired them."},{"startTime":3545.61,"endTime":3545.88,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3545.88,"endTime":3547.02,"body":"So they have to do right by you."},{"startTime":3547.35,"endTime":3550.83,"body":"But also they have to do"},{"startTime":3547.35,"endTime":3550.83,"body":"right by the customers."},{"startTime":3550.83,"endTime":3550.89,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3551.19,"endTime":3555.81,"body":"So same thing happens with, as a new"},{"startTime":3551.19,"endTime":3555.81,"body":"PO into an organization coming in."},{"startTime":3556.2,"endTime":3560.69,"body":"You're not only trying to I"},{"startTime":3556.2,"endTime":3560.69,"body":"guess not betray the trust Mr."},{"startTime":3560.69,"endTime":3562.52,"body":"Wood on you by the, by the CEO."},{"startTime":3562.52,"endTime":3562.58,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3562.85,"endTime":3567.02,"body":"But you're also trying to win over those"},{"startTime":3562.85,"endTime":3567.02,"body":"other people that are already there."},{"startTime":3567.1,"endTime":3567.39,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3567.995,"endTime":3569.345,"body":"There's a myriad of people there."},{"startTime":3569.345,"endTime":3572.105,"body":"You're trying to win them"},{"startTime":3569.345,"endTime":3572.105,"body":"over, say, this is a real role."},{"startTime":3572.105,"endTime":3573.125,"body":"I'm doing a real job."},{"startTime":3573.305,"endTime":3576.575,"body":"No, I'm not here to kick anybody out"},{"startTime":3573.305,"endTime":3576.575,"body":"and no one's gonna lose their job."},{"startTime":3577.155,"endTime":3578.265,"body":"And I'll work with you."},{"startTime":3578.325,"endTime":3579.525,"body":"And you'll work with me."},{"startTime":3579.885,"endTime":3585.74,"body":"That challenge is unique as a first"},{"startTime":3579.885,"endTime":3585.74,"body":"PO in an organization   it might be"},{"startTime":3585.74,"endTime":3589.28,"body":"there to a much more diluted level"},{"startTime":3585.74,"endTime":3589.28,"body":"when you go in and replace a bad PO,"},{"startTime":3589.28,"endTime":3592.66,"body":"because then people look at you and"},{"startTime":3589.28,"endTime":3592.66,"body":"go, we've had one of those, right."},{"startTime":3592.66,"endTime":3593.29,"body":"It didn't work out."},{"startTime":3593.29,"endTime":3593.35,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3593.64,"endTime":3595.81,"body":"Yeah same thing happens with"},{"startTime":3593.64,"endTime":3595.81,"body":"agile coaches by the way."},{"startTime":3595.81,"endTime":3596.08,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3596.08,"endTime":3596.62,"body":"Same thing."},{"startTime":3596.62,"endTime":3596.8,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3596.805,"endTime":3600.43,"body":"You're not the first agile coach in, but"},{"startTime":3596.805,"endTime":3600.43,"body":"oh boy, you're the end agile coach in."},{"startTime":3600.7,"endTime":3602.14,"body":"There's a graveyard of them, right?"},{"startTime":3602.17,"endTime":3602.41,"body":"Oh boy."},{"startTime":3602.68,"endTime":3603.43,"body":"You're stepping over."},{"startTime":3603.43,"endTime":3604.15,"body":"'em to get there."},{"startTime":3604.27,"endTime":3607.9,"body":"And when you go get there, people"},{"startTime":3604.27,"endTime":3607.9,"body":"go, oh, here's another agile coach."},{"startTime":3608.335,"endTime":3611.785,"body":"So it's unique that position I would,"},{"startTime":3608.335,"endTime":3611.785,"body":"you've gotta pick your battles."},{"startTime":3611.845,"endTime":3615.635,"body":"Even worse, like agile oh man, you just"},{"startTime":3611.845,"endTime":3615.635,"body":"hit on another podcast that we haven't"},{"startTime":3615.64,"endTime":3616.715,"body":"even really thought about like that."},{"startTime":3616.715,"endTime":3617.495,"body":"We put it on this."},{"startTime":3617.5,"endTime":3617.735,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3618.125,"endTime":3620.495,"body":"The graveyard of agile"},{"startTime":3618.125,"endTime":3620.495,"body":"coaches, like interesting."},{"startTime":3620.525,"endTime":3620.705,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":3620.765,"endTime":3623.105,"body":"If you're burning through agile"},{"startTime":3620.765,"endTime":3623.105,"body":"coaches is, Hey, let's talk about"},{"startTime":3623.105,"endTime":3624.335,"body":"your organization for a second."},{"startTime":3624.465,"endTime":3630.065,"body":"We also talked on this topic, we talked"},{"startTime":3624.465,"endTime":3630.065,"body":"about your agile leadership and that,"},{"startTime":3630.395,"endTime":3634.845,"body":"that could be an oxymoron that has"},{"startTime":3630.395,"endTime":3634.845,"body":"implications right there, that your"},{"startTime":3634.845,"endTime":3636.405,"body":"leadership even cares about this."},{"startTime":3636.495,"endTime":3640.405,"body":"Well, so Stormy made a statement just a"},{"startTime":3636.495,"endTime":3640.405,"body":"little while ago not agile leadership,"},{"startTime":3640.405,"endTime":3641.935,"body":"but just leadership you said, right?"},{"startTime":3642.105,"endTime":3645.295,"body":"I mean one and the same, but it"},{"startTime":3642.105,"endTime":3645.295,"body":"doesn't even have to be Agile's."},{"startTime":3645.295,"endTime":3648.565,"body":"There's lots of leadership"},{"startTime":3645.295,"endTime":3648.565,"body":"that is non agile."},{"startTime":3648.685,"endTime":3649.225,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":3649.465,"endTime":3650.515,"body":"And that's the problem."},{"startTime":3650.635,"endTime":3650.965,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":3651.145,"endTime":3653.875,"body":"We talk about companies that we"},{"startTime":3651.145,"endTime":3653.875,"body":"only know the names of nowaday."},{"startTime":3654.505,"endTime":3656.275,"body":"Sears Roebuck gone."},{"startTime":3656.695,"endTime":3658.645,"body":"Hundred plus year company gone."},{"startTime":3658.945,"endTime":3661.34,"body":"You wouldn't believe"},{"startTime":3658.945,"endTime":3661.34,"body":"that 20 years ago, right?"},{"startTime":3662.09,"endTime":3662.81,"body":"Kmart Kmart."},{"startTime":3662.87,"endTime":3664.01,"body":"I mean, there's a bunch of them."},{"startTime":3664.1,"endTime":3667.89,"body":"Yeah so when people say,"},{"startTime":3664.1,"endTime":3667.89,"body":"ah it's brick and mortar."},{"startTime":3667.95,"endTime":3668.52,"body":"No."},{"startTime":3668.61,"endTime":3668.82,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3668.82,"endTime":3672.03,"body":"That is not, you just didn't"},{"startTime":3668.82,"endTime":3672.03,"body":"care about your customer, they"},{"startTime":3672.03,"endTime":3673.83,"body":"weren't front and center for you."},{"startTime":3674.31,"endTime":3674.55,"body":"Oh boy."},{"startTime":3674.55,"endTime":3679.53,"body":"So anyway, so it's not, I, I personally"},{"startTime":3674.55,"endTime":3679.53,"body":"believe this, that there is a distinction"},{"startTime":3679.535,"endTime":3682.02,"body":"between a leader and an agile leader."},{"startTime":3682.39,"endTime":3686.24,"body":"Hey if you like this podcast like"},{"startTime":3682.39,"endTime":3686.24,"body":"is described and if you didn't like"},{"startTime":3686.24,"endTime":3689.21,"body":"this podcast send home nasty tweets."},{"startTime":3689.24,"endTime":3689.45,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3689.45,"endTime":3691.55,"body":"Just include the $20 bill with that."},{"startTime":3691.64,"endTime":3692.78,"body":"That'll be appreciated."},{"startTime":3692.82,"endTime":3696.42,"body":"Let us know you thought of this"},{"startTime":3692.82,"endTime":3696.42,"body":"podcast by the way that included some"},{"startTime":3696.42,"endTime":3698.82,"body":"insights, but let us know down below"}]}