{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":2.549,"body":"I'm gonna read a few things here"},{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":2.549,"body":"at the start of the podcast."},{"startTime":2.549,"endTime":3.329,"body":"Just kick us off."},{"startTime":3.599,"endTime":3.869,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":3.869,"endTime":8.189,"body":"So the person said they came from"},{"startTime":3.869,"endTime":8.189,"body":"a nontechnical sales background"},{"startTime":8.25,"endTime":10.469,"body":"into a product manager role."},{"startTime":10.589,"endTime":12.899,"body":"It was their first product"},{"startTime":10.589,"endTime":12.899,"body":"manager role with no experience."},{"startTime":12.939,"endTime":14.409,"body":"They've been in the job a few months."},{"startTime":14.559,"endTime":17.139,"body":"They're feeling real"},{"startTime":14.559,"endTime":17.139,"body":"hard imposter syndrome,"},{"startTime":17.417,"endTime":20.567,"body":"they say, for example, sometimes I have"},{"startTime":17.417,"endTime":20.567,"body":"trouble grasping what my developers"},{"startTime":20.567,"endTime":21.947,"body":"and engineers are talking about."},{"startTime":21.947,"endTime":26.267,"body":"What they're saying in meetings, what"},{"startTime":21.947,"endTime":26.267,"body":"particular technology or service or API or"},{"startTime":26.267,"endTime":28.367,"body":"technical topic that they're discussing."},{"startTime":28.367,"endTime":29.957,"body":"They have a hard time following it."},{"startTime":30.457,"endTime":33.037,"body":"They feel like they should be doing more."},{"startTime":33.037,"endTime":34.087,"body":"They feel like they're left out."},{"startTime":34.087,"endTime":35.407,"body":"They feel like they can't follow."},{"startTime":35.407,"endTime":37.147,"body":"you're not from a technical background."},{"startTime":37.152,"endTime":40.167,"body":"So you can't re you feel at least"},{"startTime":37.152,"endTime":40.167,"body":"that you can't hang with, the"},{"startTime":40.167,"endTime":41.607,"body":"technical folks on your team."},{"startTime":41.607,"endTime":43.317,"body":"When they're discussing things, et cetera."},{"startTime":43.857,"endTime":47.937,"body":", but then you, you've gotta pull it back"},{"startTime":43.857,"endTime":47.937,"body":"and say, why were you hired in this role?"},{"startTime":47.937,"endTime":53.277,"body":"Were you hired to become part of the team"},{"startTime":47.937,"endTime":53.277,"body":"as a technical representative, right?"},{"startTime":53.282,"endTime":57.087,"body":"Or are you brought in to"},{"startTime":53.282,"endTime":57.087,"body":"handle the job of a PM?"},{"startTime":57.207,"endTime":57.297,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":57.717,"endTime":61.857,"body":", fill in the blanks, scrum master, but"},{"startTime":57.717,"endTime":61.857,"body":"you, you don't really need to know the"},{"startTime":61.857,"endTime":65.907,"body":"technology because there are people"},{"startTime":61.857,"endTime":65.907,"body":"on your team that know the technology."},{"startTime":65.907,"endTime":69.117,"body":"You need to trust that they"},{"startTime":65.907,"endTime":69.117,"body":"know the technology over time."},{"startTime":69.117,"endTime":70.827,"body":"You'll learn by osmosis."},{"startTime":70.827,"endTime":74.817,"body":"Some of the concepts, you won't be an"},{"startTime":70.827,"endTime":74.817,"body":"expert like they are by any stretch."},{"startTime":75.327,"endTime":79.137,"body":"but during that time, and it does take"},{"startTime":75.327,"endTime":79.137,"body":"some time, you're gonna feel this way."},{"startTime":79.137,"endTime":82.417,"body":"You're gonna be, an imposter"},{"startTime":79.137,"endTime":82.417,"body":"in your mind at least."},{"startTime":82.422,"endTime":84.607,"body":"And feel like you don't know"},{"startTime":82.422,"endTime":84.607,"body":"what they're talking about."},{"startTime":84.607,"endTime":87.837,"body":"Therefore you're somehow"},{"startTime":84.607,"endTime":87.837,"body":"not they equal, right."},{"startTime":87.837,"endTime":89.007,"body":", that they're not adding value."},{"startTime":89.012,"endTime":89.907,"body":"Let's put it that way."},{"startTime":90.407,"endTime":93.507,"body":"But the contrarian view to that, , is."},{"startTime":94.077,"endTime":97.647,"body":"You really are because you're"},{"startTime":94.077,"endTime":97.647,"body":"coming in and asking those questions"},{"startTime":97.647,"endTime":101.997,"body":"that are not necessarily siloed"},{"startTime":97.647,"endTime":101.997,"body":"into a technical bucket, right."},{"startTime":102.052,"endTime":106.572,"body":"You're asking the business questions,"},{"startTime":102.052,"endTime":106.572,"body":"the whys, and , the what, right?"},{"startTime":106.572,"endTime":108.042,"body":"Those are the questions you're asking."},{"startTime":108.312,"endTime":112.092,"body":"The team is just so deep"},{"startTime":108.312,"endTime":112.092,"body":"into solving things."},{"startTime":112.092,"endTime":115.212,"body":"Cuz developers are they're"},{"startTime":112.092,"endTime":115.212,"body":"prone to solve things."},{"startTime":115.242,"endTime":116.052,"body":"Architects."},{"startTime":116.292,"endTime":121.902,"body":"when you ask the whys, it kind of puts"},{"startTime":116.292,"endTime":121.902,"body":"a pause on the conversation about the"},{"startTime":121.902,"endTime":127.287,"body":"technology and starts the conversation"},{"startTime":121.902,"endTime":127.287,"body":"around not just the immediate"},{"startTime":127.287,"endTime":129.817,"body":"solution, but surrounding the solution."},{"startTime":129.822,"endTime":131.517,"body":"So to take that example, right?"},{"startTime":131.517,"endTime":134.907,"body":"So the, the developers might say, well,"},{"startTime":131.517,"endTime":134.907,"body":"we can make this happen in this way,"},{"startTime":134.912,"endTime":138.327,"body":"using this, this, and this filling"},{"startTime":134.912,"endTime":138.327,"body":"all the technology they can use here."},{"startTime":138.877,"endTime":145.657,"body":", and you can come in and say, is that"},{"startTime":138.877,"endTime":145.657,"body":"going to be scalable for a thousand users?"},{"startTime":145.867,"endTime":146.857,"body":"How about 10,000?"},{"startTime":147.457,"endTime":150.247,"body":"That's a different way of"},{"startTime":147.457,"endTime":150.247,"body":"thinking than somebody who's just"},{"startTime":150.247,"endTime":151.447,"body":"saying, well, just make it work."},{"startTime":151.447,"endTime":152.377,"body":"Well, this'll work."},{"startTime":152.587,"endTime":153.757,"body":"Cause the technology is sound."},{"startTime":153.762,"endTime":154.417,"body":"We know how to do."},{"startTime":155.192,"endTime":157.532,"body":"We have access to the"},{"startTime":155.192,"endTime":157.532,"body":"technology and the knowledge."},{"startTime":158.132,"endTime":162.457,"body":"So things like resiliency , scalability,"},{"startTime":158.132,"endTime":162.457,"body":"all the -ilities that we know about."},{"startTime":162.847,"endTime":168.517,"body":"Those are things that a product owner"},{"startTime":162.847,"endTime":168.517,"body":"can ask and often they get disguised"},{"startTime":168.522,"endTime":173.767,"body":"as NFR, but Hey, they're not so NFR"},{"startTime":168.522,"endTime":173.767,"body":"as, as far as the customer's concerned"},{"startTime":173.817,"endTime":176.097,"body":"the most elegant of solutions,"},{"startTime":173.817,"endTime":176.097,"body":"if it doesn't scale."},{"startTime":176.157,"endTime":176.277,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":176.307,"endTime":177.147,"body":"What good is that?"},{"startTime":177.597,"endTime":180.957,"body":", so that's just an example of how you"},{"startTime":177.597,"endTime":180.957,"body":"can add value, even if you're not"},{"startTime":180.957,"endTime":185.357,"body":"technical, but that doesn't preclude,"},{"startTime":180.957,"endTime":185.357,"body":", this experience where you're feeling"},{"startTime":185.897,"endTime":190.547,"body":"somewhat inept, somewhat incompetent"},{"startTime":185.897,"endTime":190.547,"body":"throughout this technological discussion."},{"startTime":190.667,"endTime":194.602,"body":"Yeah, you, can realize the business"},{"startTime":190.667,"endTime":194.602,"body":"didn't bring me on to get involved"},{"startTime":194.602,"endTime":199.922,"body":"in the how, and I'm going to not get"},{"startTime":194.602,"endTime":199.922,"body":"involved in the, how, however, when"},{"startTime":200.492,"endTime":205.882,"body":"90% of the time you're talking to the"},{"startTime":200.492,"endTime":205.882,"body":"team, they're bringing up technical"},{"startTime":206.392,"endTime":212.242,"body":"discussions and issues or, or they're"},{"startTime":206.392,"endTime":212.242,"body":"taking your, this is what we should do and"},{"startTime":212.242,"endTime":213.832,"body":"immediately going straight to solutioning."},{"startTime":213.832,"endTime":215.122,"body":"You're talking about how to do it."},{"startTime":215.932,"endTime":219.412,"body":"If that is the majority of the"},{"startTime":215.932,"endTime":219.412,"body":"dialogue between you and the team,"},{"startTime":220.372,"endTime":224.212,"body":"there's gonna be conversations"},{"startTime":220.372,"endTime":224.212,"body":"where you feel that you can't hang"},{"startTime":224.362,"endTime":225.292,"body":"yeah, for sure."},{"startTime":225.402,"endTime":227.182,"body":"I, I think this is where a prudent."},{"startTime":227.682,"endTime":232.252,"body":"PO/PM you know, scrum master would"},{"startTime":227.682,"endTime":232.252,"body":"try and build out those skills from"},{"startTime":232.252,"endTime":236.032,"body":"the team, by asking them to explain"},{"startTime":232.252,"endTime":236.032,"body":"to you in plain non-technical"},{"startTime":236.032,"endTime":238.792,"body":"language, what they're doing, right."},{"startTime":239.322,"endTime":242.592,"body":"Cause the team might be saying, for"},{"startTime":239.322,"endTime":242.592,"body":"example, we're gonna implement this"},{"startTime":242.592,"endTime":244.392,"body":"messaging solution based on kafta."},{"startTime":244.452,"endTime":247.542,"body":"Just to take an example, you have"},{"startTime":244.452,"endTime":247.542,"body":"no idea what Kafka is, right?"},{"startTime":247.622,"endTime":252.332,"body":"You could say to the team, explain"},{"startTime":247.622,"endTime":252.332,"body":"to me what this thing is and why"},{"startTime":252.332,"endTime":254.372,"body":"we're using it in plain language."},{"startTime":254.762,"endTime":257.972,"body":"And they say they might"},{"startTime":254.762,"endTime":257.972,"body":"initially might struggle."},{"startTime":258.842,"endTime":259.982,"body":"That typically happens."},{"startTime":260.222,"endTime":262.652,"body":"They might say, well it's a"},{"startTime":260.222,"endTime":262.652,"body":"messaging framework that we're"},{"startTime":262.652,"endTime":264.602,"body":"using and blah, blah, blah."},{"startTime":264.652,"endTime":267.892,"body":"So at least now you learn a"},{"startTime":264.652,"endTime":267.892,"body":"phrase, it's a messaging framework."},{"startTime":267.897,"endTime":270.562,"body":"So your knowledge grows over time."},{"startTime":270.622,"endTime":275.432,"body":"Well, I'm anchoring back on imposter"},{"startTime":270.622,"endTime":275.432,"body":"syndrome because  in the case that"},{"startTime":275.432,"endTime":280.822,"body":"you just brought up, Hey we need to"},{"startTime":275.432,"endTime":280.822,"body":"expose this feed to other customers in"},{"startTime":280.822,"endTime":282.142,"body":"the business that they can consume it."},{"startTime":282.382,"endTime":284.832,"body":"Other teams can consume our output"},{"startTime":284.882,"endTime":285.182,"body":"okay."},{"startTime":285.182,"endTime":288.202,"body":"We're gonna go with a Kafka solution"},{"startTime":285.182,"endTime":288.202,"body":"and publish,  the feed through that."},{"startTime":288.262,"endTime":288.442,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":288.532,"endTime":288.742,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":288.852,"endTime":293.442,"body":"a more realistic scenario as the"},{"startTime":288.852,"endTime":293.442,"body":"PM comes in mid project, Kafka's"},{"startTime":293.442,"endTime":296.412,"body":"already been set up and has already"},{"startTime":293.442,"endTime":296.412,"body":"pushing out there, either enhancing"},{"startTime":296.412,"endTime":298.272,"body":"it or modifying it or doing whatever."},{"startTime":298.692,"endTime":300.402,"body":"and they have to ask what is Kafka?"},{"startTime":300.642,"endTime":304.417,"body":"And then the response back is,"},{"startTime":300.642,"endTime":304.417,"body":"oh, well, it's a platform where we"},{"startTime":304.417,"endTime":309.207,"body":"have consuming APIs and we publish"},{"startTime":304.417,"endTime":309.207,"body":"topics on APIs and consumers around"},{"startTime":309.207,"endTime":310.497,"body":"the business, pull those APIs in."},{"startTime":311.307,"endTime":316.337,"body":"I'm sort of digging deeper into"},{"startTime":311.307,"endTime":316.337,"body":"your response, but sort of also"},{"startTime":316.607,"endTime":318.437,"body":"accusatory in what I'm asking."},{"startTime":318.587,"endTime":318.977,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":319.067,"endTime":323.177,"body":"On purpose, because I could"},{"startTime":319.067,"endTime":323.177,"body":"see the development lead"},{"startTime":323.327,"endTime":328.957,"body":"answer to the non-technical PM"},{"startTime":323.327,"endTime":328.957,"body":"immediately be it's complicated."},{"startTime":329.197,"endTime":330.127,"body":"Just don't worry about it."},{"startTime":330.267,"endTime":330.557,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":330.562,"endTime":331.732,"body":"It's an API solution."},{"startTime":331.852,"endTime":332.632,"body":"Well, what's an API."},{"startTime":333.532,"endTime":334.282,"body":"Don't worry about it."},{"startTime":334.862,"endTime":338.197,"body":"And people might be like, oh, well, that's"},{"startTime":334.862,"endTime":338.197,"body":"like, you're being a little hand wave"},{"startTime":338.197,"endTime":342.127,"body":"or whatever, but I don't like, I don't"},{"startTime":338.197,"endTime":342.127,"body":"know, in my experience, if you have a"},{"startTime":342.132,"endTime":346.187,"body":"deep, especially a solution architect"},{"startTime":342.132,"endTime":346.187,"body":"or a business architect or whatever, or,"},{"startTime":346.207,"endTime":350.667,"body":"or, or a development lead , and then you"},{"startTime":346.207,"endTime":350.667,"body":"bring in this PM, especially if you're"},{"startTime":350.667,"endTime":356.257,"body":"a PM for the first time you're going"},{"startTime":350.667,"endTime":356.257,"body":"to encounter discussions, attitudes of"},{"startTime":356.767,"endTime":357.937,"body":"why do I have to explain this to you?"},{"startTime":358.717,"endTime":359.137,"body":"Seriously?"},{"startTime":359.137,"endTime":362.437,"body":"You don't know the minimum"},{"startTime":359.137,"endTime":362.437,"body":"technology that we're dealing."},{"startTime":362.437,"endTime":363.787,"body":"Like, how do you not know this?"},{"startTime":363.967,"endTime":366.067,"body":"And you're gonna try to be in"},{"startTime":363.967,"endTime":366.067,"body":"the middle of my conversation."},{"startTime":366.277,"endTime":369.487,"body":"You're going to deal with that attitude"},{"startTime":366.277,"endTime":369.487,"body":"and people from outside, who, who may"},{"startTime":369.487,"endTime":372.837,"body":"be listening to this podcast maybe,"},{"startTime":369.487,"endTime":372.837,"body":"maybe not, might be like, what?"},{"startTime":372.907,"endTime":377.102,"body":"That sounds ridiculous, Brian, but"},{"startTime":372.907,"endTime":377.102,"body":"actually you're, you will deal with that."},{"startTime":377.122,"endTime":379.052,"body":"You will absolutely a"},{"startTime":377.122,"endTime":379.052,"body":"hundred percent you're right."},{"startTime":379.052,"endTime":380.072,"body":"You will deal with that."},{"startTime":380.862,"endTime":381.777,"body":"I think it, it is up."},{"startTime":382.692,"endTime":387.312,"body":"A smart individual is coming into"},{"startTime":382.692,"endTime":387.312,"body":"this who encounters this to say, look,"},{"startTime":387.312,"endTime":390.792,"body":"a customer could ask you that same"},{"startTime":387.312,"endTime":390.792,"body":"question that I asked you, right."},{"startTime":391.512,"endTime":395.832,"body":"Ultimately, are you able to explain"},{"startTime":391.512,"endTime":395.832,"body":"in plain non-technical language?"},{"startTime":396.192,"endTime":398.412,"body":"What the heck it is that"},{"startTime":396.192,"endTime":398.412,"body":"you're doing basically?"},{"startTime":398.632,"endTime":402.112,"body":"If somebody says, yeah, we got"},{"startTime":398.632,"endTime":402.112,"body":"this right enterprise bus or"},{"startTime":402.112,"endTime":404.242,"body":"what, so I know what a bus is."},{"startTime":404.272,"endTime":405.292,"body":"I know what enterprise is."},{"startTime":405.292,"endTime":406.852,"body":"Explain to me what you mean here."},{"startTime":406.852,"endTime":406.942,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":407.212,"endTime":412.182,"body":"And if they cannot relay that, then I'd"},{"startTime":407.212,"endTime":412.182,"body":"say that's a deficiency in your team."},{"startTime":412.192,"endTime":413.812,"body":"I like where you're going with that one."},{"startTime":413.862,"endTime":417.572,"body":"because it's challenging some"},{"startTime":413.862,"endTime":417.572,"body":"status quo here which is we do"},{"startTime":417.572,"endTime":418.712,"body":"that a lot here, by the way."},{"startTime":418.717,"endTime":423.082,"body":"Should, should your developers have"},{"startTime":418.717,"endTime":423.082,"body":"to have the business acumen to explain"},{"startTime":423.082,"endTime":427.072,"body":"to the business why they are doing"},{"startTime":423.082,"endTime":427.072,"body":"what they're doing and how it works"},{"startTime":427.132,"endTime":430.322,"body":"in clear non-technical language?"},{"startTime":430.392,"endTime":430.722,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":430.812,"endTime":433.542,"body":"A, I don't know a way to"},{"startTime":430.812,"endTime":433.542,"body":"cushion what I'm trying to say."},{"startTime":433.782,"endTime":437.922,"body":"They, I think I personally feel,"},{"startTime":433.782,"endTime":437.922,"body":"I want your opinion on this too."},{"startTime":438.072,"endTime":438.702,"body":"I personally."},{"startTime":439.497,"endTime":441.147,"body":"Yes, they should be able to do that."},{"startTime":441.447,"endTime":444.057,"body":"Here's why think about the"},{"startTime":441.447,"endTime":444.057,"body":"medical profession, right."},{"startTime":444.057,"endTime":446.727,"body":"And it's where storm is pain"},{"startTime":444.057,"endTime":446.727,"body":"counts bigger than mine."},{"startTime":447.147,"endTime":450.957,"body":"a physician can explain to the"},{"startTime":447.147,"endTime":450.957,"body":"patient in plain language, what"},{"startTime":450.957,"endTime":452.487,"body":"the heck it is that's going on."},{"startTime":452.757,"endTime":455.967,"body":"They do not have to get behind"},{"startTime":452.757,"endTime":455.967,"body":"the medical mumbo jumbo, which"},{"startTime":455.967,"endTime":457.587,"body":"is usually lost on most people."},{"startTime":458.007,"endTime":459.117,"body":"They don't have to get to that."},{"startTime":459.357,"endTime":463.737,"body":"and that's a skill that a physician"},{"startTime":459.357,"endTime":463.737,"body":"has to be able to say, we're going to"},{"startTime":463.737,"endTime":468.342,"body":"do this instead of we're gonna shave"},{"startTime":463.737,"endTime":468.342,"body":"the lateral aspect of your meniscus or"},{"startTime":468.342,"endTime":473.812,"body":"whatever the heck it is that all of those"},{"startTime":468.342,"endTime":473.812,"body":"words are lost on the average patient."},{"startTime":474.102,"endTime":475.412,"body":"I love meniscus."},{"startTime":475.412,"endTime":477.332,"body":"Meniscus is a good word."},{"startTime":477.492,"endTime":478.052,"body":"Meniscus"},{"startTime":478.402,"endTime":481.342,"body":"I mean, this is something I can speak"},{"startTime":478.402,"endTime":481.342,"body":"to because it's where I come from."},{"startTime":481.397,"endTime":486.687,"body":"And I'm going to speak to my personal"},{"startTime":481.397,"endTime":486.687,"body":"experience in the organizations"},{"startTime":486.687,"endTime":490.977,"body":"that I've worked at, every one"},{"startTime":486.687,"endTime":490.977,"body":"of which has been very unique."},{"startTime":491.292,"endTime":498.592,"body":"In , their problems, their organizational"},{"startTime":491.292,"endTime":498.592,"body":"structure, their culture, the way in which"},{"startTime":498.592,"endTime":501.612,"body":"their teams are structured and built."},{"startTime":501.612,"endTime":502.032,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":502.037,"endTime":507.462,"body":"So all unique and all that does need"},{"startTime":502.037,"endTime":507.462,"body":"to kind of come into consideration."},{"startTime":507.512,"endTime":512.202,"body":"First of all, as a product owner coming"},{"startTime":507.512,"endTime":512.202,"body":"in, assuming without technical knowledge"},{"startTime":512.722,"endTime":516.682,"body":"so assuming then that you have some"},{"startTime":512.722,"endTime":516.682,"body":"domain experience and in the example that"},{"startTime":516.682,"endTime":520.612,"body":"you gave this product owner was coming"},{"startTime":516.682,"endTime":520.612,"body":"in as a product owner with no technical"},{"startTime":520.612,"endTime":523.192,"body":"experience, but came in from sales,"},{"startTime":523.292,"endTime":526.412,"body":"."},{"startTime":523.292,"endTime":526.412,"body":"So, or a product manager, I think"},{"startTime":526.672,"endTime":531.232,"body":"but sales does give them some domain"},{"startTime":526.672,"endTime":531.232,"body":"knowledge, which could actually"},{"startTime":531.232,"endTime":533.182,"body":"be very useful in that role."},{"startTime":533.237,"endTime":539.237,"body":"It also could be detrimental  if they"},{"startTime":533.237,"endTime":539.237,"body":"don't kind of walk that line so pretty"},{"startTime":539.237,"endTime":543.387,"body":"carefully or understand their role"},{"startTime":539.237,"endTime":543.387,"body":"as a product manager and, and, and"},{"startTime":543.392,"endTime":544.907,"body":"make sure that they're kind of, yeah."},{"startTime":544.907,"endTime":548.237,"body":"So, so just saying, but they do are"},{"startTime":544.907,"endTime":548.237,"body":"bringing some domain knowledge here."},{"startTime":548.297,"endTime":548.657,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":549.087,"endTime":554.127,"body":"that said, I recall coming in as my"},{"startTime":549.087,"endTime":554.127,"body":"first product owner job and within the"},{"startTime":554.127,"endTime":557.427,"body":"first, probably three months, I was."},{"startTime":557.927,"endTime":558.857,"body":"Lost."},{"startTime":559.397,"endTime":560.777,"body":"Oh my gosh."},{"startTime":560.777,"endTime":566.177,"body":"With all of the acronyms and the things"},{"startTime":560.777,"endTime":566.177,"body":"that they're throwing up on the board and"},{"startTime":566.227,"endTime":572.587,"body":"Mongo database and angular and Kubernetes"},{"startTime":566.227,"endTime":572.587,"body":"and microservices and all these things"},{"startTime":572.587,"endTime":576.557,"body":"that I didn't I started to get a bit"},{"startTime":572.587,"endTime":576.557,"body":"of an understanding of what they did."},{"startTime":577.067,"endTime":584.417,"body":"but I would say that it was really"},{"startTime":577.067,"endTime":584.417,"body":"important for me to collaborate as a"},{"startTime":584.417,"endTime":590.457,"body":"part of my scrum team and when needed to"},{"startTime":584.417,"endTime":590.457,"body":"communicate with my scrum master in saying"},{"startTime":590.457,"endTime":595.377,"body":"like, if I, so number one, I didn't ever"},{"startTime":590.457,"endTime":595.377,"body":"have a problem speaking with my, my team."},{"startTime":595.437,"endTime":595.767,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":596.097,"endTime":598.437,"body":"They knew that I was"},{"startTime":596.097,"endTime":598.437,"body":"coming without number one."},{"startTime":598.467,"endTime":601.617,"body":"I was very, very transparent"},{"startTime":598.467,"endTime":601.617,"body":"about the fact that I'm not coming"},{"startTime":601.622,"endTime":602.907,"body":"from a technical background."},{"startTime":603.237,"endTime":605.007,"body":"I'm gonna be leaning on you for that."},{"startTime":605.217,"endTime":606.957,"body":"You are the experts in this."},{"startTime":606.987,"endTime":610.737,"body":"And I am trusting for you as my"},{"startTime":606.987,"endTime":610.737,"body":"team to be the experts in this."},{"startTime":610.737,"endTime":610.977,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":610.977,"endTime":614.397,"body":"Number one, number two,"},{"startTime":610.977,"endTime":614.397,"body":"as questions come up."},{"startTime":614.397,"endTime":618.727,"body":"Number one, I don't, I don't pepper"},{"startTime":614.397,"endTime":618.727,"body":"them constantly, but as questions"},{"startTime":618.727,"endTime":621.107,"body":"come up, I'll make notes to myself."},{"startTime":621.107,"endTime":625.217,"body":"I might have a conversation kind"},{"startTime":621.107,"endTime":625.217,"body":"of afterwards, or say, Hey, I need"},{"startTime":625.217,"endTime":626.807,"body":"to understand this a little better."},{"startTime":626.807,"endTime":631.067,"body":"Or I think I need to understand this a"},{"startTime":626.807,"endTime":631.067,"body":"little better, but to your point, I never"},{"startTime":631.072,"endTime":634.157,"body":"had an issue with anyone on my team."},{"startTime":634.517,"endTime":638.857,"body":"Pushing back who didn't immediately get"},{"startTime":634.517,"endTime":638.857,"body":"up and go to the whiteboard and say, all"},{"startTime":638.857,"endTime":640.957,"body":"right, here's what a microservice is."},{"startTime":640.957,"endTime":642.307,"body":"Here's what Kubernetes is."},{"startTime":642.312,"endTime":644.167,"body":"Here's where Mongo kind of fits into that."},{"startTime":644.167,"endTime":645.457,"body":"Let me show you the connections."},{"startTime":645.457,"endTime":647.557,"body":"This is why we do it this way."},{"startTime":647.917,"endTime":652.057,"body":", very simply put, and I will"},{"startTime":647.917,"endTime":652.057,"body":"tell you the benefit of that."},{"startTime":652.057,"endTime":655.357,"body":"So it allowed me to your point to"},{"startTime":652.057,"endTime":655.357,"body":"speak to for instance, a customer."},{"startTime":655.357,"endTime":659.887,"body":"But I think the bigger benefit of"},{"startTime":655.357,"endTime":659.887,"body":"that was when it came to planning."},{"startTime":660.387,"endTime":665.717,"body":"All a sudden, I had an overarching"},{"startTime":660.387,"endTime":665.717,"body":"general understanding I'm not coding."},{"startTime":665.747,"endTime":666.137,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":666.287,"endTime":669.887,"body":"But when we're starting to speak with the"},{"startTime":666.287,"endTime":669.887,"body":"dev team in planning, all of a sudden I'm"},{"startTime":669.887,"endTime":673.367,"body":"going like, wow, is this a bigger job?"},{"startTime":673.397,"endTime":675.017,"body":"You know, how big is this?"},{"startTime":675.017,"endTime":678.467,"body":"How many pieces of this does"},{"startTime":675.017,"endTime":678.467,"body":"that this actually incorporate?"},{"startTime":678.527,"endTime":682.277,"body":"And so then I start thinking about,"},{"startTime":678.527,"endTime":682.277,"body":"all right, let's think about this as"},{"startTime":682.282,"endTime":684.867,"body":"a team, how can we divide this up?"},{"startTime":684.867,"endTime":688.932,"body":"How should we is, is this story actually"},{"startTime":684.867,"endTime":688.932,"body":"a story or depending on how you how"},{"startTime":688.932,"endTime":692.952,"body":"you're set up, is it a,  a feature or"},{"startTime":688.932,"endTime":692.952,"body":"is it an epic  or should this story"},{"startTime":692.952,"endTime":697.752,"body":"be split out in some specific way,"},{"startTime":692.952,"endTime":697.752,"body":"but it helps me as a product owner to"},{"startTime":697.752,"endTime":699.942,"body":"help kind of guide that conversation."},{"startTime":699.942,"endTime":704.562,"body":"I don't need to have a full on"},{"startTime":699.942,"endTime":704.562,"body":"understanding, but what I do it really,"},{"startTime":704.562,"endTime":709.392,"body":"really helps me to facilitate that meeting"},{"startTime":704.562,"endTime":709.392,"body":"going, like, let's think about this."},{"startTime":709.692,"endTime":714.762,"body":"The other thing I found is that asking"},{"startTime":709.692,"endTime":714.762,"body":"those questions and particularly in"},{"startTime":714.762,"endTime":718.782,"body":"the context of a, of a team meeting"},{"startTime":714.762,"endTime":718.782,"body":"or a team event of some type."},{"startTime":719.442,"endTime":722.712,"body":"So planning, for instance, if I'm"},{"startTime":719.442,"endTime":722.712,"body":"asking a question, help me understand"},{"startTime":722.717,"endTime":726.772,"body":"this better, because that's, what's"},{"startTime":722.717,"endTime":726.772,"body":"gonna help me to collaborate with"},{"startTime":726.777,"endTime":730.342,"body":"the team on how how do we split this"},{"startTime":726.777,"endTime":730.342,"body":"out most appropriately so that we can"},{"startTime":730.342,"endTime":733.042,"body":"give a deliverable piece an increment."},{"startTime":733.852,"endTime":736.012,"body":"So then all of a sudden I have multiple."},{"startTime":736.597,"endTime":740.277,"body":"People on my team up there talking"},{"startTime":736.597,"endTime":740.277,"body":"about it, and collaborating, going"},{"startTime":740.277,"endTime":742.107,"body":"like, no, will have you thought of this?"},{"startTime":742.407,"endTime":743.817,"body":"Wait, about what about that?"},{"startTime":744.027,"endTime":745.827,"body":"Wait, what about we"},{"startTime":744.027,"endTime":745.827,"body":"have these regulations?"},{"startTime":745.827,"endTime":747.297,"body":"Are we actually capturing that?"},{"startTime":747.347,"endTime":752.267,"body":"all the sudden things discussions are"},{"startTime":747.347,"endTime":752.267,"body":"being had just simply by virtue of them"},{"startTime":752.267,"endTime":757.187,"body":"explaining simplicity to me and then going"},{"startTime":752.267,"endTime":757.187,"body":"like, Ooh, it's not quite that simple."},{"startTime":757.192,"endTime":757.247,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":757.877,"endTime":759.977,"body":"So there's some real benefits to that."},{"startTime":760.667,"endTime":764.787,"body":"And then I would say as well,"},{"startTime":760.667,"endTime":764.787,"body":"every organization I've worked"},{"startTime":764.787,"endTime":772.352,"body":"with has different tools, different"},{"startTime":764.787,"endTime":772.352,"body":"applications and utilized in very"},{"startTime":772.352,"endTime":775.982,"body":"different manners and segregated"},{"startTime":772.352,"endTime":775.982,"body":"across teams in very different manners."},{"startTime":776.522,"endTime":781.712,"body":"So every place that you start, you"},{"startTime":776.522,"endTime":781.712,"body":"are starting green again, and you"},{"startTime":781.712,"endTime":789.192,"body":"have to start not understanding much"},{"startTime":781.712,"endTime":789.192,"body":"being confident to ask questions."},{"startTime":789.777,"endTime":793.947,"body":"Building , the relationship with"},{"startTime":789.777,"endTime":793.947,"body":"your scrum team to be able to have"},{"startTime":793.952,"endTime":798.437,"body":"them comfortable in answering those"},{"startTime":793.952,"endTime":798.437,"body":"questions without feeling like they're"},{"startTime":798.437,"endTime":801.287,"body":"being trampled on or dictated to."},{"startTime":801.557,"endTime":801.857,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":801.857,"endTime":805.067,"body":"Truly, I'm looking at you as the"},{"startTime":801.857,"endTime":805.067,"body":"expert, particularly as someone"},{"startTime":805.067,"endTime":810.707,"body":"non-technical tell me how this works"},{"startTime":805.067,"endTime":810.707,"body":"Cliff's notes, version layman's terms,"},{"startTime":810.757,"endTime":814.677,"body":"and that helps me to understand the"},{"startTime":810.757,"endTime":814.677,"body":"overarching vision and potentially"},{"startTime":815.007,"endTime":816.927,"body":"also makes me start thinking, okay."},{"startTime":817.007,"endTime":822.397,"body":"Ooh, have I not thought of maybe"},{"startTime":817.007,"endTime":822.397,"body":"some , some dependencies here?"},{"startTime":822.707,"endTime":824.987,"body":"Do we need to get some"},{"startTime":822.707,"endTime":824.987,"body":"other teams involved here?"},{"startTime":824.987,"endTime":825.047,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":825.167,"endTime":826.847,"body":"Now, rather than later."},{"startTime":826.847,"endTime":826.907,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":827.207,"endTime":832.067,"body":"So there's some real fantastic things"},{"startTime":827.207,"endTime":832.067,"body":"that come from those conversations."},{"startTime":832.067,"endTime":836.267,"body":"And I think that they must be had maybe"},{"startTime":832.067,"endTime":836.267,"body":"planning is the best place to do that."},{"startTime":836.267,"endTime":837.347,"body":"It could be something else."},{"startTime":837.347,"endTime":838.217,"body":"I'm not sure."},{"startTime":838.627,"endTime":844.037,"body":"And then what I would say is"},{"startTime":838.627,"endTime":844.037,"body":"that the first couple of weeks"},{"startTime":844.097,"endTime":845.177,"body":"you're gonna be clueless."},{"startTime":845.177,"endTime":848.387,"body":"The next couple of weeks, you're"},{"startTime":845.177,"endTime":848.387,"body":"gonna be a little less clueless, three"},{"startTime":848.387,"endTime":852.347,"body":"months in, you're gonna be feeling"},{"startTime":848.387,"endTime":852.347,"body":"a lot more confident, six months in."},{"startTime":852.352,"endTime":855.497,"body":"You're gonna be like, you know what,"},{"startTime":852.352,"endTime":855.497,"body":"I'm following everything in this review."},{"startTime":855.797,"endTime":859.102,"body":"I can see when they're pulling up"},{"startTime":855.797,"endTime":859.102,"body":"this API and I see the call and it's"},{"startTime":859.102,"endTime":860.842,"body":"successful, you know what I'm like?"},{"startTime":860.842,"endTime":862.372,"body":"All right,  I understand that, right."},{"startTime":862.372,"endTime":865.912,"body":"I don't understand how they did it, but"},{"startTime":862.372,"endTime":865.912,"body":"I can see they showed me that they went"},{"startTime":865.917,"endTime":867.542,"body":"out, , they were successful in the call."},{"startTime":867.572,"endTime":872.667,"body":"my point is, is there's a learning"},{"startTime":867.572,"endTime":872.667,"body":"curve, every single job that you"},{"startTime":872.667,"endTime":879.347,"body":"work at dependent on the tools, the"},{"startTime":872.667,"endTime":879.347,"body":"makeup, the culture, and the way in"},{"startTime":879.347,"endTime":883.692,"body":"which the teams are divided and in"},{"startTime":879.347,"endTime":883.692,"body":"regards to their responsibilities."},{"startTime":884.382,"endTime":887.172,"body":"So those are the, those are some"},{"startTime":884.382,"endTime":887.172,"body":"of the things that I would think"},{"startTime":887.172,"endTime":888.972,"body":"of initially in my experience."},{"startTime":889.1,"endTime":894.175,"body":"I guess the what's sticking in my mind"},{"startTime":889.1,"endTime":894.175,"body":"now is I've been a part of organizations"},{"startTime":895.045,"endTime":899.555,"body":"don't have product people and try to"},{"startTime":895.045,"endTime":899.555,"body":"bring them in for the first time so"},{"startTime":899.555,"endTime":905.155,"body":"they have a very strong development"},{"startTime":899.555,"endTime":905.155,"body":"centric organization that is shoulding."},{"startTime":905.205,"endTime":909.325,"body":"Usually the like the development"},{"startTime":905.205,"endTime":909.325,"body":"lead or the CTO or the director of"},{"startTime":909.325,"endTime":912.235,"body":"development, somebody like that, like"},{"startTime":909.325,"endTime":912.235,"body":"shoulders, the product responsibility."},{"startTime":912.385,"endTime":914.035,"body":"They're, they're the one"},{"startTime":912.385,"endTime":914.035,"body":"kind of jockeying, like"},{"startTime":914.065,"endTime":915.505,"body":"what do we do in what order?"},{"startTime":915.565,"endTime":917.245,"body":"The prioritization of the job."},{"startTime":917.515,"endTime":920.935,"body":"And they're looking to offload that"},{"startTime":917.515,"endTime":920.935,"body":"to a professional product person."},{"startTime":920.935,"endTime":924.175,"body":"Like they, they're very happy when a"},{"startTime":920.935,"endTime":924.175,"body":"professional product person comes on board"},{"startTime":924.175,"endTime":928.375,"body":"because basically my, my one, my, one of"},{"startTime":924.175,"endTime":928.375,"body":"my first one on ones had companies in that"},{"startTime":928.375,"endTime":933.135,"body":"position is with people in those roles"},{"startTime":928.375,"endTime":933.135,"body":"to say, would, would it make you happy?"},{"startTime":933.435,"endTime":935.235,"body":"If you never had to answer the question?"},{"startTime":935.265,"endTime":936.255,"body":"When will this be done?"},{"startTime":936.945,"endTime":938.565,"body":"How come you're working"},{"startTime":936.945,"endTime":938.565,"body":"on this and not this?"},{"startTime":939.255,"endTime":941.115,"body":"And you never had to answer"},{"startTime":939.255,"endTime":941.115,"body":"that question ever again."},{"startTime":941.445,"endTime":941.715,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":941.985,"endTime":945.825,"body":"Cause basically that like here I am,"},{"startTime":941.985,"endTime":945.825,"body":"like, I'm here to take you out of that"},{"startTime":945.925,"endTime":949.405,"body":"conversation, that position of being"},{"startTime":945.925,"endTime":949.405,"body":"in that I'm not, I'm not here to take"},{"startTime":949.405,"endTime":950.275,"body":"you outta the conversation, right?"},{"startTime":950.275,"endTime":953.055,"body":"We're gonna have the conversation"},{"startTime":950.275,"endTime":953.055,"body":"together, but I'm here to take you"},{"startTime":953.055,"endTime":956.655,"body":"out of the position of being the one"},{"startTime":953.055,"endTime":956.655,"body":"that the business pins down to be"},{"startTime":956.655,"endTime":957.975,"body":"like, why are you working on this?"},{"startTime":958.245,"endTime":959.835,"body":"Mm-hmm  why aren't you working on this?"},{"startTime":960.045,"endTime":961.095,"body":"When's this gonna be done?"},{"startTime":961.305,"endTime":964.065,"body":"How much longer until"},{"startTime":961.305,"endTime":964.065,"body":"whatever, what can you stop to?"},{"startTime":964.065,"endTime":965.805,"body":"You know what those conversations."},{"startTime":965.835,"endTime":968.715,"body":"Yeah, yeah, no, that those are,"},{"startTime":965.835,"endTime":968.715,"body":"those are very good points."},{"startTime":968.875,"endTime":973.075,"body":"I start off something similar"},{"startTime":968.875,"endTime":973.075,"body":"by just asking them what keeps"},{"startTime":973.075,"endTime":974.485,"body":"you up at night, you know?"},{"startTime":974.485,"endTime":977.745,"body":"And they go, well, We don't know"},{"startTime":974.485,"endTime":977.745,"body":"what we're releasing when et cetera."},{"startTime":978.105,"endTime":978.555,"body":"And yeah."},{"startTime":978.555,"endTime":982.245,"body":"So then you come in and say, well,"},{"startTime":978.555,"endTime":982.245,"body":"what if we take that off of your plate?"},{"startTime":982.275,"endTime":984.885,"body":"Cuz your plate's already full,"},{"startTime":982.275,"endTime":984.885,"body":"you have a role that you're"},{"startTime":984.885,"endTime":986.775,"body":"working on right now to fulfill."},{"startTime":987.165,"endTime":988.095,"body":"So yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":988.255,"endTime":991.195,"body":"they're very thankful when you go"},{"startTime":988.255,"endTime":991.195,"body":"in and take that off of their plate,"},{"startTime":991.195,"endTime":994.765,"body":"but also at the same time, if you're"},{"startTime":991.195,"endTime":994.765,"body":"not careful, it becomes one of those."},{"startTime":994.765,"endTime":999.925,"body":"Well, so off my plate on someone else's"},{"startTime":994.765,"endTime":999.925,"body":"but that someone else is now coming in"},{"startTime":1000.045,"endTime":1001.725,"body":"just to go back to the imposter thing."},{"startTime":1001.935,"endTime":1004.995,"body":"Mm-hmm  you are not brought in"},{"startTime":1001.935,"endTime":1004.995,"body":"as a technical expert anyway."},{"startTime":1005.295,"endTime":1008.715,"body":"So going in, you should sit"},{"startTime":1005.295,"endTime":1008.715,"body":"that expectation, like in your"},{"startTime":1008.715,"endTime":1012.495,"body":"interview, just say, look, I'm not"},{"startTime":1008.715,"endTime":1012.495,"body":"the expert on the technical side,"},{"startTime":1012.705,"endTime":1014.265,"body":"I'm the expert on the product side."},{"startTime":1014.875,"endTime":1015.735,"body":"You have experts."},{"startTime":1015.915,"endTime":1017.805,"body":"I will be partnering with those people."},{"startTime":1017.835,"endTime":1018.215,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1018.27,"endTime":1023.8,"body":"I guess now is the time to put the"},{"startTime":1018.27,"endTime":1023.8,"body":"asterisks in this conversation to say,"},{"startTime":1024.01,"endTime":1028.12,"body":"we're not talking about specifically a"},{"startTime":1024.01,"endTime":1028.12,"body":"technical product manager, that that type"},{"startTime":1028.12,"endTime":1032.41,"body":"of role would they, they do bring you in I"},{"startTime":1028.12,"endTime":1032.41,"body":"remember going through some job interviews"},{"startTime":1032.41,"endTime":1035.56,"body":"for technical product manager slash owner."},{"startTime":1035.56,"endTime":1040.21,"body":"I don't remember which one it was where"},{"startTime":1035.56,"endTime":1040.21,"body":"the, the, all of the products were"},{"startTime":1040.81,"endTime":1045.07,"body":"APIs being consumed by developers, not"},{"startTime":1040.81,"endTime":1045.07,"body":"internal developers, external developers."},{"startTime":1045.07,"endTime":1046.12,"body":"So you actually had."},{"startTime":1046.795,"endTime":1050.515,"body":"But all those customers were"},{"startTime":1046.795,"endTime":1050.515,"body":"developers at other organizations."},{"startTime":1050.755,"endTime":1055.165,"body":"So any questions that they might ask you"},{"startTime":1050.755,"endTime":1055.165,"body":"were going to be technical in nature?"},{"startTime":1055.285,"endTime":1060.265,"body":"So you, as the product manager needed"},{"startTime":1055.285,"endTime":1060.265,"body":"also to be technical in nature, to talk"},{"startTime":1060.27,"endTime":1062.365,"body":"to your customers who all were technical."},{"startTime":1062.395,"endTime":1066.385,"body":"So it like, that's a very specific yeah."},{"startTime":1066.895,"endTime":1067.405,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1067.405,"endTime":1067.855,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1067.905,"endTime":1072.735,"body":"but, even in that situation,"},{"startTime":1067.905,"endTime":1072.735,"body":"I feel like I've heard this a,"},{"startTime":1072.895,"endTime":1076.455,"body":"a bunch of times on podcasts I"},{"startTime":1072.895,"endTime":1076.455,"body":"listen to and, and, and articles."},{"startTime":1076.46,"endTime":1080.905,"body":"I read especially the Silicon valley"},{"startTime":1076.46,"endTime":1080.905,"body":"PMs or PMs that are like very early in"},{"startTime":1080.91,"endTime":1083.965,"body":"their career, they'll say, well, in that"},{"startTime":1080.91,"endTime":1083.965,"body":"situation, you've gotta partner with"},{"startTime":1083.97,"endTime":1088.185,"body":"your technical lead or your architect"},{"startTime":1083.97,"endTime":1088.185,"body":"or your solution architect to kind"},{"startTime":1088.185,"endTime":1090.585,"body":"of help you along and explain things."},{"startTime":1090.585,"endTime":1096.395,"body":"Or if you, as PM are dealing with a"},{"startTime":1090.585,"endTime":1096.395,"body":"topic that requires you to dig super"},{"startTime":1096.395,"endTime":1101.705,"body":"deep into a technical solution to"},{"startTime":1096.395,"endTime":1101.705,"body":"talk about, like, for example, if"},{"startTime":1101.705,"endTime":1103.655,"body":"you're maybe migrating to a different."},{"startTime":1104.155,"endTime":1106.975,"body":"Or if you are upgrading a major version"},{"startTime":1106.975,"endTime":1110.335,"body":"the accomplishment outta the other"},{"startTime":1106.975,"endTime":1110.335,"body":"side is we do all this work and if"},{"startTime":1110.335,"endTime":1114.085,"body":"we do it all correctly, then we are"},{"startTime":1110.335,"endTime":1114.085,"body":"better positioned for the future."},{"startTime":1114.085,"endTime":1117.925,"body":"We have lower business risk,"},{"startTime":1114.085,"endTime":1117.925,"body":"but the users see no difference."},{"startTime":1117.975,"endTime":1121.995,"body":"I was once part of a project where"},{"startTime":1117.975,"endTime":1121.995,"body":"the, the backend was all file based."},{"startTime":1122.445,"endTime":1126.095,"body":"And we added a database to the middle"},{"startTime":1122.445,"endTime":1126.095,"body":"of the system and replaced the, the"},{"startTime":1126.095,"endTime":1127.925,"body":"files in all the different folders."},{"startTime":1127.985,"endTime":1129.185,"body":"And that was the heart of the system."},{"startTime":1129.305,"endTime":1131.405,"body":"So we went from that"},{"startTime":1129.305,"endTime":1131.405,"body":"to a central database."},{"startTime":1132.005,"endTime":1135.605,"body":"So it was like, basically we were like"},{"startTime":1132.005,"endTime":1135.605,"body":"pulling the rug out or pulling the"},{"startTime":1135.61,"endTime":1138.815,"body":"foundation out from under the house"},{"startTime":1135.61,"endTime":1138.815,"body":"and replacing with the new foundation."},{"startTime":1138.995,"endTime":1143.405,"body":"And the measure of success was the"},{"startTime":1138.995,"endTime":1143.405,"body":"customers didn't see any interruptions."},{"startTime":1143.495,"endTime":1143.615,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1143.645,"endTime":1144.365,"body":"What their normal."},{"startTime":1144.515,"endTime":1144.935,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1144.935,"endTime":1151.015,"body":"So like that as a PM in that"},{"startTime":1144.935,"endTime":1151.015,"body":"situation, it's not super glamorous."},{"startTime":1151.885,"endTime":1156.965,"body":"The takeaways from that are all in the"},{"startTime":1151.885,"endTime":1156.965,"body":"reduction of business risk, which is not"},{"startTime":1156.965,"endTime":1162.13,"body":"a super sexy feature to sell to customers,"},{"startTime":1156.965,"endTime":1162.13,"body":"but important, but for the business where"},{"startTime":1162.13,"endTime":1164.905,"body":"they wanted to be in the super important."},{"startTime":1165.055,"endTime":1165.565,"body":"Super important."},{"startTime":1165.565,"endTime":1167.455,"body":"So internally, no, there's no problem."},{"startTime":1167.46,"endTime":1167.965,"body":"No pushback"},{"startTime":1168.175,"endTime":1170.665,"body":"from a customer's perspective, it"},{"startTime":1168.175,"endTime":1170.665,"body":"was like, well, why are you not"},{"startTime":1170.665,"endTime":1172.075,"body":"delivering features in quarter two?"},{"startTime":1172.135,"endTime":1174.325,"body":"Like I don't, I don't see anything"},{"startTime":1172.135,"endTime":1174.325,"body":"I care about in quarter two"},{"startTime":1174.815,"endTime":1181.175,"body":"I bring this broad category up to say"},{"startTime":1174.815,"endTime":1181.175,"body":"the advice that I've read on blogs"},{"startTime":1181.175,"endTime":1184.895,"body":"and podcasts and stuff is just partner"},{"startTime":1181.175,"endTime":1184.895,"body":"with your tech lead, and they'll kind"},{"startTime":1184.895,"endTime":1186.125,"body":"of help you through these things."},{"startTime":1186.635,"endTime":1186.935,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1187.485,"endTime":1190.945,"body":"the issue with that advice,"},{"startTime":1187.485,"endTime":1190.945,"body":"just partner with your tech"},{"startTime":1190.95,"endTime":1193.275,"body":"lead is that's a rabbit hole."},{"startTime":1193.325,"endTime":1194.135,"body":"I feel it's like,"},{"startTime":1195.125,"endTime":1197.495,"body":"where does that end just"},{"startTime":1195.125,"endTime":1197.495,"body":"partner with your tech lead?"},{"startTime":1197.855,"endTime":1203.165,"body":"Cause cuz I, I have seen companies where"},{"startTime":1197.855,"endTime":1203.165,"body":"the product people basically they, they"},{"startTime":1203.165,"endTime":1207.755,"body":"get in the mode only talking to the tech"},{"startTime":1203.165,"endTime":1207.755,"body":"lead and they never talk to the team."},{"startTime":1208.175,"endTime":1210.485,"body":"And then they basically like"},{"startTime":1208.175,"endTime":1210.485,"body":"now, now you're waterfall,"},{"startTime":1210.605,"endTime":1214.505,"body":"I'm just gonna hand off the tech, Hey, I"},{"startTime":1210.605,"endTime":1214.505,"body":"need Tina do this upgrade, figure it out."},{"startTime":1214.51,"endTime":1216.545,"body":"Mm-hmm  innovation's been stifled."},{"startTime":1216.545,"endTime":1220.625,"body":"You now have like circumvented"},{"startTime":1216.545,"endTime":1220.625,"body":"the whole purpose of having a"},{"startTime":1220.625,"endTime":1222.785,"body":"self organizing team, right?"},{"startTime":1223.115,"endTime":1223.775,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1224.505,"endTime":1229.515,"body":"I just wanna add to that point that there"},{"startTime":1224.505,"endTime":1229.515,"body":"are some industries where you kind of"},{"startTime":1230.415,"endTime":1233.245,"body":"cannot escape knowing some technology."},{"startTime":1233.415,"endTime":1234.355,"body":"I'll give you an example."},{"startTime":1234.685,"endTime":1240.455,"body":", when I was on my gig at Boeing,"},{"startTime":1234.685,"endTime":1240.455,"body":"the customers were other"},{"startTime":1241.385,"endTime":1242.935,"body":"technical customers right."},{"startTime":1242.935,"endTime":1244.435,"body":"People that buy components."},{"startTime":1244.555,"endTime":1244.615,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1244.685,"endTime":1247.56,"body":", so they can kind of Lego brick,"},{"startTime":1244.685,"endTime":1247.56,"body":"their own pieces together."},{"startTime":1248.06,"endTime":1251.33,"body":"As a product person, anybody really."},{"startTime":1251.38,"endTime":1256.18,"body":"You needed to know something now, did you"},{"startTime":1251.38,"endTime":1256.18,"body":"need to know the mill specs and all that?"},{"startTime":1256.18,"endTime":1260.925,"body":"No, but you needed to know what the thing"},{"startTime":1256.18,"endTime":1260.925,"body":"does, how it works, how it's useful,"},{"startTime":1260.925,"endTime":1262.965,"body":"where it fits into the bigger ecosystem."},{"startTime":1263.265,"endTime":1267.525,"body":"If you couldn't talk to that, you have"},{"startTime":1263.265,"endTime":1267.525,"body":"no choice, but to bring somebody else in"},{"startTime":1267.705,"endTime":1270.255,"body":"a luxury you don't always have, right?"},{"startTime":1270.255,"endTime":1276.045,"body":"Because you're brought into these meetings"},{"startTime":1270.255,"endTime":1276.045,"body":"where your tech people aren't there and"},{"startTime":1276.585,"endTime":1280.035,"body":"conversation comes up and a question"},{"startTime":1276.585,"endTime":1280.035,"body":"comes up and it's directed at you."},{"startTime":1280.085,"endTime":1284.045,"body":"And if you're not able to answer"},{"startTime":1280.085,"endTime":1284.045,"body":"that, I mean, your answer cannot be,"},{"startTime":1284.045,"endTime":1285.755,"body":"let me get somebody else in here."},{"startTime":1285.855,"endTime":1292.035,"body":"So in those situations, you need to"},{"startTime":1285.855,"endTime":1292.035,"body":"learn at least the basics of the product."},{"startTime":1292.245,"endTime":1295.845,"body":"And that happens over time,"},{"startTime":1292.245,"endTime":1295.845,"body":"but it doesn't happen."},{"startTime":1295.845,"endTime":1296.655,"body":"By  osmosis."},{"startTime":1296.685,"endTime":1299.565,"body":"I wanna tell you that"},{"startTime":1296.685,"endTime":1299.565,"body":"because I've seen that fail."},{"startTime":1299.925,"endTime":1302.115,"body":"There's a lot of turf"},{"startTime":1299.925,"endTime":1302.115,"body":"protection, et cetera, going"},{"startTime":1302.115,"endTime":1303.645,"body":"on, people don't wanna share."},{"startTime":1303.855,"endTime":1308.805,"body":"So the poor product person or PM,"},{"startTime":1303.855,"endTime":1308.805,"body":"or scrum master whomever, they can"},{"startTime":1308.805,"endTime":1312.515,"body":"ask  in all earnest, , they're not"},{"startTime":1308.805,"endTime":1312.515,"body":"gonna get the, the cooperation."},{"startTime":1312.785,"endTime":1315.755,"body":"So what they have to do is"},{"startTime":1312.785,"endTime":1315.755,"body":"take it on themselves to learn."},{"startTime":1316.055,"endTime":1318.995,"body":"That's where they have to go the extra"},{"startTime":1316.055,"endTime":1318.995,"body":"mile and say, I'm gonna learn about"},{"startTime":1318.995,"endTime":1322.085,"body":"this product, cuz then I can stand"},{"startTime":1318.995,"endTime":1322.085,"body":"on my own two feet and talk about it."},{"startTime":1322.715,"endTime":1323.885,"body":"There are very few industries."},{"startTime":1323.885,"endTime":1327.215,"body":"The other one I can think about"},{"startTime":1323.885,"endTime":1327.215,"body":"is perhaps pharmaceuticals, maybe"},{"startTime":1327.215,"endTime":1331.985,"body":"you need to talk about some things"},{"startTime":1327.215,"endTime":1331.985,"body":"around the product that you are, you."},{"startTime":1332.485,"endTime":1333.685,"body":"Manufacturing or whatever."},{"startTime":1334.465,"endTime":1338.935,"body":"So I would say if you're on a"},{"startTime":1334.465,"endTime":1338.935,"body":"team where you have people who are"},{"startTime":1339.775,"endTime":1345.835,"body":"protecting, and what I heard was a"},{"startTime":1339.775,"endTime":1345.835,"body":"complete lack of transparency that,"},{"startTime":1345.955,"endTime":1351.945,"body":"that literally engaging in lack of"},{"startTime":1345.955,"endTime":1351.945,"body":"transparency, then that's a problem"},{"startTime":1351.945,"endTime":1355.185,"body":"that actually needs to be resolved."},{"startTime":1355.275,"endTime":1355.395,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1355.4,"endTime":1355.665,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1355.665,"endTime":1360.555,"body":"So  that ends up becoming and, and"},{"startTime":1355.665,"endTime":1360.555,"body":"festering becoming a much larger problem,"},{"startTime":1360.555,"endTime":1362.475,"body":"particularly over a period of time."},{"startTime":1363.015,"endTime":1363.105,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1363.135,"endTime":1363.705,"body":"absolutely."},{"startTime":1363.945,"endTime":1368.565,"body":"In regards to just getting really"},{"startTime":1363.945,"endTime":1368.565,"body":"quick back to the psychological safety"},{"startTime":1368.565,"endTime":1374.285,"body":"in the original example you gave,"},{"startTime":1368.565,"endTime":1374.285,"body":"I would argue that the salesperson"},{"startTime":1374.29,"endTime":1378.755,"body":"coming in and this, this plays into"},{"startTime":1374.29,"endTime":1378.755,"body":"what you're saying does not, and"},{"startTime":1378.76,"endTime":1380.915,"body":"should not be expected to be technical."},{"startTime":1381.485,"endTime":1383.285,"body":"They aren't initially."},{"startTime":1383.885,"endTime":1384.175,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1384.675,"endTime":1388.015,"body":"remember when I said earlier that"},{"startTime":1384.675,"endTime":1388.015,"body":"every organization that you work"},{"startTime":1388.015,"endTime":1394.505,"body":"for is gonna have a unique set of"},{"startTime":1388.015,"endTime":1394.505,"body":"applications of procedures of ways in"},{"startTime":1394.505,"endTime":1399.065,"body":"which they're organized their teams of"},{"startTime":1394.505,"endTime":1399.065,"body":"responsibilities, so on and so forth,"},{"startTime":1399.545,"endTime":1403.685,"body":"which means no matter where you go, you're"},{"startTime":1399.545,"endTime":1403.685,"body":"going to start with a learning curve."},{"startTime":1403.775,"endTime":1409.175,"body":"And yes, it is up to you on the"},{"startTime":1403.775,"endTime":1409.175,"body":"scrum team to learn about the"},{"startTime":1409.175,"endTime":1412.955,"body":"product that you are responsible for."},{"startTime":1412.985,"endTime":1417.725,"body":"Yeah, I do believe that"},{"startTime":1412.985,"endTime":1417.725,"body":"that should be very open."},{"startTime":1418.185,"endTime":1423.525,"body":", and we should have a very"},{"startTime":1418.185,"endTime":1423.525,"body":"collaborative and, a team effort"},{"startTime":1424.155,"endTime":1428.325,"body":"amongst the entire scrum team, scrum"},{"startTime":1424.155,"endTime":1428.325,"body":"master product owner and the devs."},{"startTime":1428.565,"endTime":1431.865,"body":"And if that isn't what's happening,"},{"startTime":1428.565,"endTime":1431.865,"body":"we have people who are hiding and"},{"startTime":1432.145,"endTime":1437.125,"body":"protecting things that tells me, Ooh,"},{"startTime":1432.145,"endTime":1437.125,"body":"we've got some issues here, far larger"},{"startTime":1437.365,"endTime":1438.985,"body":"that need to be addressed upwards."},{"startTime":1438.985,"endTime":1442.935,"body":"And those aren't gonna be things that I'm"},{"startTime":1438.985,"endTime":1442.935,"body":"gonna necessarily fix from the ground up."},{"startTime":1443.295,"endTime":1446.955,"body":"I can attempt, and I may be able"},{"startTime":1443.295,"endTime":1446.955,"body":"to make some segue in my little"},{"startTime":1446.955,"endTime":1450.915,"body":"team, but that tells me that there's"},{"startTime":1446.955,"endTime":1450.915,"body":"a far larger  issue going on."},{"startTime":1451.275,"endTime":1456.525,"body":"So you don't need to be technical in"},{"startTime":1451.275,"endTime":1456.525,"body":"the beginning, and you do not need"},{"startTime":1456.525,"endTime":1463.725,"body":"to be a developer years into it, but"},{"startTime":1456.525,"endTime":1463.725,"body":"given time you should be exposed."},{"startTime":1464.115,"endTime":1467.685,"body":"And some of it does come by"},{"startTime":1464.115,"endTime":1467.685,"body":"osmosis, but a lot of it's gonna"},{"startTime":1467.685,"endTime":1469.545,"body":"come through just curiosity."},{"startTime":1469.6,"endTime":1475.09,"body":"And the need and, and the the necessity"},{"startTime":1469.6,"endTime":1475.09,"body":"to, to your point, understand the"},{"startTime":1475.09,"endTime":1480.33,"body":"application, the product, whatever it is"},{"startTime":1475.09,"endTime":1480.33,"body":"you're responsible for and collaborating"},{"startTime":1480.33,"endTime":1488.19,"body":"with users, marketing leadership,"},{"startTime":1480.33,"endTime":1488.19,"body":"absolutely your, your developers."},{"startTime":1488.22,"endTime":1494.4,"body":"and then when it comes to potentially some"},{"startTime":1488.22,"endTime":1494.4,"body":"issues with culture, I I'd be talking to"},{"startTime":1494.4,"endTime":1500.52,"body":"my scrum master, my agile coach and going"},{"startTime":1494.4,"endTime":1500.52,"body":"like, Ooh, we've got some issues here."},{"startTime":1500.58,"endTime":1504.4,"body":"Like can you help me out with this"},{"startTime":1500.58,"endTime":1504.4,"body":"because I'm running into a wall here."},{"startTime":1505.0,"endTime":1509.26,"body":"And then I'll just tell you in my"},{"startTime":1505.0,"endTime":1509.26,"body":"experience the best experiences that I"},{"startTime":1509.26,"endTime":1516.56,"body":"have had working for companies was, were"},{"startTime":1509.26,"endTime":1516.56,"body":"ones in which the scrum team was involved."},{"startTime":1516.965,"endTime":1521.045,"body":"In my interview, now it wasn't the"},{"startTime":1516.965,"endTime":1521.045,"body":"initial interview, but the scrum"},{"startTime":1521.045,"endTime":1522.335,"body":"team was involved in my interview."},{"startTime":1522.335,"endTime":1525.815,"body":"And what that did was"},{"startTime":1522.335,"endTime":1525.815,"body":"give me the opportunity to"},{"startTime":1525.815,"endTime":1528.545,"body":"immediately set expectations."},{"startTime":1528.935,"endTime":1531.605,"body":"They knew what I was coming in with."},{"startTime":1531.605,"endTime":1533.945,"body":"They were permitted to ask questions."},{"startTime":1534.185,"endTime":1535.895,"body":"They were permitted to explore."},{"startTime":1535.895,"endTime":1540.005,"body":"They were permitted to get kind of my"},{"startTime":1535.895,"endTime":1540.005,"body":"work ethic and see how I would typically"},{"startTime":1540.365,"endTime":1542.945,"body":"maybe handle a particular situation."},{"startTime":1543.635,"endTime":1549.215,"body":"And they had a voice in, if I was"},{"startTime":1543.635,"endTime":1549.215,"body":"a product owner that they wanted on"},{"startTime":1549.215,"endTime":1552.155,"body":"their team and that's what I wanted."},{"startTime":1552.575,"endTime":1555.995,"body":"So I was accepted in with the"},{"startTime":1552.575,"endTime":1555.995,"body":"understanding that I didn't have"},{"startTime":1555.995,"endTime":1559.985,"body":"that technical knowledge, that that"},{"startTime":1555.995,"endTime":1559.985,"body":"was going to be a responsibility"},{"startTime":1559.985,"endTime":1563.015,"body":"of theirs to help, to impart on me."},{"startTime":1563.585,"endTime":1565.235,"body":"And that's something that"},{"startTime":1563.585,"endTime":1565.235,"body":"I made clear on that."},{"startTime":1565.235,"endTime":1571.625,"body":"And I think that that was a fantastic"},{"startTime":1565.235,"endTime":1571.625,"body":"way again, to start immediately"},{"startTime":1571.625,"endTime":1577.965,"body":"to create trust in involvement,"},{"startTime":1571.625,"endTime":1577.965,"body":"relationship and ownership."},{"startTime":1578.235,"endTime":1578.505,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1578.515,"endTime":1579.715,"body":"That's I agree."},{"startTime":1579.955,"endTime":1581.425,"body":"First of all, that's awesome."},{"startTime":1581.695,"endTime":1585.295,"body":"You know, I think when you first"},{"startTime":1581.695,"endTime":1585.295,"body":"are introduced as that non-technical"},{"startTime":1585.295,"endTime":1588.595,"body":"person in that environment, the"},{"startTime":1585.295,"endTime":1588.595,"body":"first thing you should do is"},{"startTime":1588.6,"endTime":1590.125,"body":"go in there and tell your team."},{"startTime":1590.8,"endTime":1592.48,"body":"They are the experts, right?"},{"startTime":1592.48,"endTime":1594.01,"body":"Mm-hmm  and you're"},{"startTime":1592.48,"endTime":1594.01,"body":"gonna partner with them."},{"startTime":1594.01,"endTime":1599.96,"body":"Mm-hmm  so then it's clear and the other"},{"startTime":1594.01,"endTime":1599.96,"body":"thing I would say expectation, one B"},{"startTime":1600.23,"endTime":1606.11,"body":"would be to say over time, they will"},{"startTime":1600.23,"endTime":1606.11,"body":"bring you up to speed with this stuff."},{"startTime":1606.27,"endTime":1610.795,"body":"To your point, it's up to the individual"},{"startTime":1606.27,"endTime":1610.795,"body":"to go seek out that or those opportunities"},{"startTime":1610.795,"endTime":1612.565,"body":"cuz they don't present themselves."},{"startTime":1612.635,"endTime":1616.985,"body":"And if, if I'm going to add anything,"},{"startTime":1612.635,"endTime":1616.985,"body":"especially add anything in a passive"},{"startTime":1616.985,"endTime":1621.275,"body":"aggressive manner, passive aggressive,"},{"startTime":1616.985,"endTime":1621.275,"body":"he's not gonna the theme, the podcast"},{"startTime":1621.33,"endTime":1625.35,"body":"technical or not technical, not"},{"startTime":1621.33,"endTime":1625.35,"body":"having a technical background."},{"startTime":1625.59,"endTime":1629.49,"body":"Doesn't absolve you of"},{"startTime":1625.59,"endTime":1629.49,"body":"having a responsibility of"},{"startTime":1629.49,"endTime":1630.51,"body":"learning your own product."},{"startTime":1630.51,"endTime":1632.52,"body":"Mm absolutely learning and using"},{"startTime":1630.51,"endTime":1632.52,"body":"and testing your own product."},{"startTime":1632.67,"endTime":1635.43,"body":"I think immediately of all the"},{"startTime":1632.67,"endTime":1635.43,"body":"products that I've been at PM"},{"startTime":1635.435,"endTime":1638.1,"body":"for, like I had to learn them all."},{"startTime":1638.155,"endTime":1642.325,"body":"Usually it's the testers on the team"},{"startTime":1638.155,"endTime":1642.325,"body":"that I'll go first because I, again,"},{"startTime":1642.325,"endTime":1645.995,"body":"my background's in testing, so they"},{"startTime":1642.325,"endTime":1645.995,"body":"I'll go through them first to say,"},{"startTime":1645.995,"endTime":1647.525,"body":"Hey, how do you test the product?"},{"startTime":1647.585,"endTime":1651.395,"body":"And I found, that's an easy segue into"},{"startTime":1647.585,"endTime":1651.395,"body":"figuring out how to use the product,"},{"startTime":1651.755,"endTime":1656.02,"body":"finding their test scripts and figuring"},{"startTime":1651.755,"endTime":1656.02,"body":"out how to walk through them, or if they,"},{"startTime":1656.05,"endTime":1660.39,"body":"or if they're mainly an automation shop,"},{"startTime":1656.05,"endTime":1660.39,"body":"maybe I'll go find whatever variables are"},{"startTime":1660.395,"endTime":1663.27,"body":"stored to figure out what I should put in"},{"startTime":1660.395,"endTime":1663.27,"body":"and what fields or whatever you that's,"},{"startTime":1663.27,"endTime":1665.01,"body":"cuz you're technical to begin with."},{"startTime":1665.07,"endTime":1665.91,"body":"You can do that."},{"startTime":1665.97,"endTime":1666.27,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1666.37,"endTime":1669.21,"body":"even the example I used before"},{"startTime":1666.37,"endTime":1669.21,"body":"where you you're, you are like,"},{"startTime":1669.51,"endTime":1673.75,"body":"you are in like the FinTech space"},{"startTime":1669.51,"endTime":1673.75,"body":"and all your products are APIs."},{"startTime":1674.14,"endTime":1679.38,"body":"I mean, you, your product person, I mean,"},{"startTime":1674.14,"endTime":1679.38,"body":"would they benefit from just sitting"},{"startTime":1679.385,"endTime":1680.82,"body":"down and learning how to use postman?"},{"startTime":1681.12,"endTime":1684.72,"body":"How like out, like, think about like"},{"startTime":1681.12,"endTime":1684.72,"body":"how long would it take them to sit down?"},{"startTime":1685.17,"endTime":1687.03,"body":"Not everybody's wired that way."},{"startTime":1687.09,"endTime":1692.1,"body":"They, I, now I was not an expert,"},{"startTime":1687.09,"endTime":1692.1,"body":"but this was something that"},{"startTime":1692.1,"endTime":1693.93,"body":"my dev team helped me yeah."},{"startTime":1694.17,"endTime":1700.24,"body":"To learn so that I understood"},{"startTime":1694.17,"endTime":1700.24,"body":"when we were developing APIs so"},{"startTime":1700.51,"endTime":1702.25,"body":"so postman was explained to me,"},{"startTime":1702.3,"endTime":1705.71,"body":"I guess the reason I brought all"},{"startTime":1702.3,"endTime":1705.71,"body":"that up is to say what concerns me"},{"startTime":1705.71,"endTime":1709.205,"body":"about being nontechnical and saying,"},{"startTime":1705.71,"endTime":1709.205,"body":"okay, it's okay to be non-tech"},{"startTime":1709.805,"endTime":1711.305,"body":"you don't need to dig deeper."},{"startTime":1711.425,"endTime":1714.215,"body":"You don't need to do that, just"},{"startTime":1711.425,"endTime":1714.215,"body":"pass it off to the tech lead."},{"startTime":1714.315,"endTime":1717.925,"body":"that worries me because I've been in a"},{"startTime":1714.315,"endTime":1717.925,"body":"lot of environments with,  developers"},{"startTime":1717.93,"endTime":1721.465,"body":"who basically are code monkeys or"},{"startTime":1717.93,"endTime":1721.465,"body":"offshore teams that, that is where"},{"startTime":1721.465,"endTime":1724.345,"body":"I've seen this the most quite honestly"},{"startTime":1721.465,"endTime":1724.345,"body":"is you hand off the offshore team."},{"startTime":1724.345,"endTime":1726.835,"body":"You're basically not allowed"},{"startTime":1724.345,"endTime":1726.835,"body":"to talk to the offshore team."},{"startTime":1726.835,"endTime":1729.425,"body":"You go through a develop and"},{"startTime":1726.835,"endTime":1729.425,"body":"lead, and then they most."},{"startTime":1730.14,"endTime":1733.26,"body":"Message to the offshore team,"},{"startTime":1730.14,"endTime":1733.26,"body":"or relay to the offshore team."},{"startTime":1733.26,"endTime":1733.47,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1733.5,"endTime":1738.0,"body":"That's why most horrible experience I've"},{"startTime":1733.5,"endTime":1738.0,"body":"ever, ever experienced as a PO so bad."},{"startTime":1738.73,"endTime":1739.33,"body":"I so bad."},{"startTime":1739.37,"endTime":1739.73,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":1739.96,"endTime":1740.79,"body":"Yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":1740.79,"endTime":1741.39,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1741.445,"endTime":1746.715,"body":"If you're a PM without a team, I'm very"},{"startTime":1741.445,"endTime":1746.715,"body":"concerned of like technical or not."},{"startTime":1746.715,"endTime":1747.435,"body":"I'm very concerned."},{"startTime":1747.915,"endTime":1748.275,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1748.635,"endTime":1749.595,"body":"So no team."},{"startTime":1749.715,"endTime":1750.005,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1750.135,"endTime":1750.765,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1750.795,"endTime":1753.705,"body":"Well, I mean like the way your"},{"startTime":1750.795,"endTime":1753.705,"body":"company will describe it is, well,"},{"startTime":1753.705,"endTime":1757.185,"body":"you do have a team it's just,"},{"startTime":1753.705,"endTime":1757.185,"body":"they're they're this technical"},{"startTime":1757.185,"endTime":1759.075,"body":"person is gate keeping your team."},{"startTime":1759.305,"endTime":1763.085,"body":"That's a stage gate in the"},{"startTime":1759.305,"endTime":1763.085,"body":"traditional project management world."},{"startTime":1763.085,"endTime":1764.855,"body":"So now you're introducing waste"},{"startTime":1764.865,"endTime":1767.735,"body":"let's pivot to the  PM without"},{"startTime":1764.865,"endTime":1767.735,"body":"a technical background, some"},{"startTime":1767.74,"endTime":1769.385,"body":"pros let's pivot to some pros"},{"startTime":1769.565,"endTime":1773.315,"body":"the immediate pro that"},{"startTime":1769.565,"endTime":1773.315,"body":"I think of is you're."},{"startTime":1773.435,"endTime":1779.375,"body":"When you have a separate product"},{"startTime":1773.435,"endTime":1779.375,"body":"organization inside of your company, I"},{"startTime":1779.375,"endTime":1783.485,"body":"would expect the product organization"},{"startTime":1779.375,"endTime":1783.485,"body":"to be building and owning and"},{"startTime":1783.485,"endTime":1785.135,"body":"maintaining and updating the roadmap."},{"startTime":1785.945,"endTime":1786.305,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1786.575,"endTime":1791.095,"body":"When I say roadmap, there's people out"},{"startTime":1786.575,"endTime":1791.095,"body":"there, like  no roadmaps, like I'm not"},{"startTime":1791.095,"endTime":1792.325,"body":"trying to get into that conversation."},{"startTime":1792.385,"endTime":1793.405,"body":"That's a whole different podcast."},{"startTime":1793.405,"endTime":1793.465,"body":"No."},{"startTime":1793.975,"endTime":1794.185,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1794.185,"endTime":1795.415,"body":"It is a different podcast."},{"startTime":1795.415,"endTime":1800.055,"body":"When I say maintain the roadmap, what"},{"startTime":1795.415,"endTime":1800.055,"body":"I mean is like the, the, the I almost"},{"startTime":1800.055,"endTime":1804.015,"body":"don't even want to name it, like the"},{"startTime":1800.055,"endTime":1804.015,"body":"epic level and above like the higher"},{"startTime":1804.02,"endTime":1806.565,"body":"than a story level higher than the"},{"startTime":1804.02,"endTime":1806.565,"body":"team level is what I'm saying higher."},{"startTime":1806.595,"endTime":1808.305,"body":"Higher is not even a"},{"startTime":1806.595,"endTime":1808.305,"body":"great way to phrase it."},{"startTime":1808.785,"endTime":1813.825,"body":"Like not refine enough to be consumed"},{"startTime":1808.785,"endTime":1813.825,"body":"by any one team in its entirety,"},{"startTime":1814.325,"endTime":1816.485,"body":"a product plan, a portfolio plan."},{"startTime":1816.49,"endTime":1818.045,"body":"I mean, all of those things."},{"startTime":1818.045,"endTime":1818.375,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1818.375,"endTime":1822.545,"body":"So, I mean, depends on what organization"},{"startTime":1818.375,"endTime":1822.545,"body":"it is, how it's defined, but, well, I"},{"startTime":1822.605,"endTime":1825.935,"body":"like, again, like now we're in another"},{"startTime":1822.605,"endTime":1825.935,"body":"podcast, another, another podcast."},{"startTime":1825.935,"endTime":1828.665,"body":"Cause planning like a"},{"startTime":1825.935,"endTime":1828.665,"body":"planning is another podcast."},{"startTime":1828.665,"endTime":1829.655,"body":"It's not quite a plan."},{"startTime":1829.655,"endTime":1832.455,"body":"It's, objectives at the business level."},{"startTime":1832.455,"endTime":1836.535,"body":"Mm-hmm  that have not been broken"},{"startTime":1832.455,"endTime":1836.535,"body":"down into achievable segments yet."},{"startTime":1836.665,"endTime":1841.465,"body":"The reason I bring that up is because"},{"startTime":1836.665,"endTime":1841.465,"body":"I consider it a pro for someone"},{"startTime":1841.765,"endTime":1846.235,"body":"who does not come from a technical"},{"startTime":1841.765,"endTime":1846.235,"body":"background, I, this is my hypothesis."},{"startTime":1846.235,"endTime":1847.585,"body":"I have no evidence to back this up."},{"startTime":1847.615,"endTime":1854.245,"body":"I think that they are in a better"},{"startTime":1847.615,"endTime":1854.245,"body":"position to stay in the goal, objective"},{"startTime":1854.245,"endTime":1858.625,"body":"oriented mindset and not dig into"},{"startTime":1854.245,"endTime":1858.625,"body":"solutioning to say, oh, you want, oh,"},{"startTime":1858.805,"endTime":1865.26,"body":"oh, you, you want more engagement for"},{"startTime":1858.805,"endTime":1865.26,"body":"raising engagement of our website by some"},{"startTime":1865.26,"endTime":1867.51,"body":"percentage, it's a significant percentage."},{"startTime":1867.51,"endTime":1869.7,"body":"Cuz the business probably won't"},{"startTime":1867.51,"endTime":1869.7,"body":"give you a real percentage."},{"startTime":1869.94,"endTime":1870.72,"body":"So you'll say, oh."},{"startTime":1871.215,"endTime":1875.655,"body":"Well, that means I need to go add"},{"startTime":1871.215,"endTime":1875.655,"body":"this function to my website and go"},{"startTime":1875.685,"endTime":1877.425,"body":"put this move this around or whatever."},{"startTime":1877.425,"endTime":1878.145,"body":"Yeah, you'll go."},{"startTime":1878.195,"endTime":1881.495,"body":"I think of the businesses I've been in"},{"startTime":1878.195,"endTime":1881.495,"body":"that have not had product people and"},{"startTime":1881.495,"endTime":1885.305,"body":"they've just had developers and the"},{"startTime":1881.495,"endTime":1885.305,"body":"developer will hear a request like this"},{"startTime":1885.485,"endTime":1888.485,"body":"and immediately go into solutioning"},{"startTime":1885.485,"endTime":1888.485,"body":"and hand that solution to a team."},{"startTime":1888.515,"endTime":1888.815,"body":"For sure."},{"startTime":1888.815,"endTime":1892.175,"body":"I need you guys to redesign the website"},{"startTime":1888.815,"endTime":1892.175,"body":"to change this and move this here and"},{"startTime":1892.175,"endTime":1895.995,"body":"do whatever, because I think if this is"},{"startTime":1892.175,"endTime":1895.995,"body":"here will have a higher engagement rate."},{"startTime":1896.145,"endTime":1896.385,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1896.745,"endTime":1898.285,"body":"So immediately to solutioning."},{"startTime":1898.995,"endTime":1899.205,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1899.305,"endTime":1900.345,"body":"You, you spot on there."},{"startTime":1900.345,"endTime":1904.815,"body":"I mean, an architect or a tech lead"},{"startTime":1900.345,"endTime":1904.815,"body":"would definitely be thinking about that."},{"startTime":1904.815,"endTime":1904.905,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1905.085,"endTime":1909.825,"body":"Whereas somebody at a higher level"},{"startTime":1905.085,"endTime":1909.825,"body":"would simply focus on the problem"},{"startTime":1909.885,"endTime":1911.595,"body":"at hand, which is the what, right."},{"startTime":1911.905,"endTime":1912.985,"body":"Mm-hmm  what are we trying to do?"},{"startTime":1912.985,"endTime":1915.445,"body":"Mm-hmm  and then they take"},{"startTime":1912.985,"endTime":1915.445,"body":"the, what they take it to the"},{"startTime":1915.445,"endTime":1917.005,"body":"team and say, here's the what?"},{"startTime":1917.095,"endTime":1919.615,"body":"And by the way, here's"},{"startTime":1917.095,"endTime":1919.615,"body":"the why mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":1919.615,"endTime":1923.245,"body":"Without that, the team's kind of"},{"startTime":1919.615,"endTime":1923.245,"body":"left wondering, so you need both, you"},{"startTime":1923.245,"endTime":1926.965,"body":"need the what and the why, and they"},{"startTime":1923.245,"endTime":1926.965,"body":"completely stay out of the how, because"},{"startTime":1926.97,"endTime":1928.495,"body":"that is the purview of the team."},{"startTime":1928.495,"endTime":1929.425,"body":"Let them figure it out."},{"startTime":1929.695,"endTime":1932.245,"body":"You have some smart people"},{"startTime":1929.695,"endTime":1932.245,"body":"there so they can figure it out."},{"startTime":1933.055,"endTime":1935.845,"body":"But that's hard if you are, and"},{"startTime":1933.055,"endTime":1935.845,"body":"this is the flip side of it."},{"startTime":1935.85,"endTime":1938.845,"body":"So if you're a non-technical person"},{"startTime":1935.85,"endTime":1938.845,"body":"it's to your point, it's a lot easier."},{"startTime":1939.355,"endTime":1940.345,"body":"To do it that way."},{"startTime":1940.465,"endTime":1940.555,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1940.585,"endTime":1943.845,"body":"But if you're a technical person and,"},{"startTime":1940.585,"endTime":1943.845,"body":"and let's say you're in charge of"},{"startTime":1943.905,"endTime":1947.145,"body":"not just the, the architect level,"},{"startTime":1943.905,"endTime":1947.145,"body":"you're in charge of the product level."},{"startTime":1947.415,"endTime":1950.385,"body":"So you're still on the product"},{"startTime":1947.415,"endTime":1950.385,"body":"side, but you have a technical bent."},{"startTime":1950.715,"endTime":1950.775,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1950.865,"endTime":1953.655,"body":"It is so difficult to not"},{"startTime":1950.865,"endTime":1953.655,"body":"go into solution mode."},{"startTime":1954.045,"endTime":1956.985,"body":"You're immediately saying, Hey we should"},{"startTime":1954.045,"endTime":1956.985,"body":"do it this way, this way, this way."},{"startTime":1956.985,"endTime":1957.225,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1957.615,"endTime":1962.325,"body":"By doing that by every single"},{"startTime":1957.615,"endTime":1962.325,"body":"edict that you put forward"},{"startTime":1962.325,"endTime":1963.825,"body":"saying, we should do it this way."},{"startTime":1963.895,"endTime":1968.535,"body":"Mm-hmm  you are blocking out an infinitely"},{"startTime":1963.895,"endTime":1968.535,"body":"large number of other possibilities"},{"startTime":1968.535,"endTime":1969.795,"body":"that the team may come up with."},{"startTime":1969.885,"endTime":1970.605,"body":"Mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":1971.175,"endTime":1974.055,"body":"You're never gonna even have the"},{"startTime":1971.175,"endTime":1974.055,"body":"discussion of what could we do."},{"startTime":1974.06,"endTime":1974.505,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1974.775,"endTime":1978.375,"body":"You are bring, it's kind of the same back"},{"startTime":1974.775,"endTime":1978.375,"body":"to like, just partner with your tech lead."},{"startTime":1978.38,"endTime":1980.865,"body":"Well, I mean, when you partner with"},{"startTime":1978.38,"endTime":1980.865,"body":"your tech lead and you give them"},{"startTime":1981.225,"endTime":1985.215,"body":"the business problem, Hey we need to"},{"startTime":1981.225,"endTime":1985.215,"body":"get more engagement on our website."},{"startTime":1985.815,"endTime":1988.845,"body":"The danger there is that they're"},{"startTime":1985.815,"endTime":1988.845,"body":"gonna turn around to the team members."},{"startTime":1988.875,"endTime":1993.105,"body":"Again, it's even more dangerous of the"},{"startTime":1988.875,"endTime":1993.105,"body":"team members in an offshore team and"},{"startTime":1993.105,"endTime":1997.275,"body":"they won't come to the team members and"},{"startTime":1993.105,"endTime":1997.275,"body":"say, Hey, we have a new business problem."},{"startTime":1997.605,"endTime":2000.485,"body":"It's to get more engagement on the"},{"startTime":1997.605,"endTime":2000.485,"body":"website, what do you guys think?"},{"startTime":2001.415,"endTime":2002.255,"body":"What could we do?"},{"startTime":2002.465,"endTime":2005.015,"body":"Let's let's pull up a whiteboard"},{"startTime":2002.465,"endTime":2005.015,"body":"and put just throw some"},{"startTime":2005.015,"endTime":2006.215,"body":"brainstorming solutions up there."},{"startTime":2006.855,"endTime":2009.865,"body":"the more likely thing that"},{"startTime":2006.855,"endTime":2009.865,"body":"I have seen only, only in my"},{"startTime":2009.865,"endTime":2012.5,"body":"experience is the go between."},{"startTime":2013.28,"endTime":2017.63,"body":"Will design a solution themselves"},{"startTime":2013.28,"endTime":2017.63,"body":"and then hand the tasks to"},{"startTime":2017.63,"endTime":2018.95,"body":"do that to the team members."},{"startTime":2018.95,"endTime":2019.46,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2019.46,"endTime":2020.72,"body":"I've seen the same thing too."},{"startTime":2020.78,"endTime":2023.48,"body":"Mm-hmm  they prescribe to the team"},{"startTime":2020.78,"endTime":2023.48,"body":"members, whether they're offshore or not."},{"startTime":2023.69,"endTime":2023.9,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2023.9,"endTime":2025.13,"body":"This is what we're doing now."},{"startTime":2025.25,"endTime":2029.3,"body":"And the team members, then aren't"},{"startTime":2025.25,"endTime":2029.3,"body":"even afforded the opportunity to"},{"startTime":2029.3,"endTime":2033.11,"body":"question why mm-hmm , which means we're"},{"startTime":2029.3,"endTime":2033.11,"body":"building that person's solution period."},{"startTime":2033.115,"endTime":2033.44,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":2033.9,"endTime":2035.24,"body":"That's so frustrating to me."},{"startTime":2035.36,"endTime":2035.57,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2035.575,"endTime":2035.72,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2035.72,"endTime":2039.315,"body":"So I'll tell you, so one of the"},{"startTime":2035.72,"endTime":2039.315,"body":"things that I thought of is that so"},{"startTime":2039.315,"endTime":2043.815,"body":"this both of you mentioned something"},{"startTime":2039.315,"endTime":2043.815,"body":"and that is kind of the, the what"},{"startTime":2043.815,"endTime":2048.375,"body":"and the why, and you mentioned"},{"startTime":2043.815,"endTime":2048.375,"body":"specifically, we need more, what was it?"},{"startTime":2048.375,"endTime":2052.565,"body":"So more engagement engagement on the"},{"startTime":2048.375,"endTime":2052.565,"body":"website mm-hmm  so is that really a,"},{"startTime":2052.57,"endTime":2055.595,"body":"what so is that, or a business problem?"},{"startTime":2056.435,"endTime":2063.095,"body":"So I would actually go,"},{"startTime":2056.435,"endTime":2063.095,"body":"is we need more, right."},{"startTime":2063.395,"endTime":2066.575,"body":"So what I would wanna"},{"startTime":2063.395,"endTime":2066.575,"body":"get to is the problem."},{"startTime":2066.575,"endTime":2072.755,"body":"Why don't we have the engagement that"},{"startTime":2066.575,"endTime":2072.755,"body":"we need, I would wanna understand"},{"startTime":2072.755,"endTime":2077.405,"body":"that what, and that why and dig"},{"startTime":2072.755,"endTime":2077.405,"body":"deeper and, and dig deeper and"},{"startTime":2077.405,"endTime":2080.195,"body":"deeper sometimes uncomfortably, so"},{"startTime":2080.775,"endTime":2083.32,"body":"the lack of in customer"},{"startTime":2080.775,"endTime":2083.32,"body":"engagement, isn't the problem."},{"startTime":2083.845,"endTime":2087.535,"body":"Why do we have lack of"},{"startTime":2083.845,"endTime":2087.535,"body":"customer engagement?"},{"startTime":2087.565,"endTime":2088.885,"body":"That's the problem."},{"startTime":2089.165,"endTime":2091.845,"body":"Then we, then we can start"},{"startTime":2089.165,"endTime":2091.845,"body":"working on a solution."},{"startTime":2091.85,"endTime":2096.575,"body":"If we understand the why, then we can"},{"startTime":2091.85,"endTime":2096.575,"body":"start getting into the actual problem."},{"startTime":2096.815,"endTime":2101.675,"body":"So that's where I start really, as a"},{"startTime":2096.815,"endTime":2101.675,"body":"product owner product start picking apart"},{"startTime":2101.675,"endTime":2106.935,"body":"because a lot of times business comes to"},{"startTime":2101.675,"endTime":2106.935,"body":"us and say, we need this and I'm going."},{"startTime":2106.965,"endTime":2110.715,"body":"So I, and I do, I I'll try to pick"},{"startTime":2106.965,"endTime":2110.715,"body":"that apart, which can be uncomfortable."},{"startTime":2111.165,"endTime":2118.085,"body":", but a lot of times that does unearth"},{"startTime":2111.165,"endTime":2118.085,"body":"some, some more granular issues that"},{"startTime":2118.085,"endTime":2123.755,"body":"fundamentally we are trying to solve,"},{"startTime":2118.085,"endTime":2123.755,"body":"which are gonna lead to ultimately"},{"startTime":2123.755,"endTime":2126.335,"body":"the increase in customer engagement."},{"startTime":2126.335,"endTime":2126.625,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2126.755,"endTime":2127.325,"body":"That's excellent."},{"startTime":2127.325,"endTime":2127.625,"body":"Point."},{"startTime":2127.725,"endTime":2129.23,"body":"I believe you can only do that."},{"startTime":2129.23,"endTime":2133.34,"body":"If you come in from the stance of"},{"startTime":2129.23,"endTime":2133.34,"body":"you non-technical person, cuz the"},{"startTime":2133.34,"endTime":2136.67,"body":"technical person will go down the"},{"startTime":2133.34,"endTime":2136.67,"body":"other path in the decision tree, right?"},{"startTime":2136.97,"endTime":2137.96,"body":"Say we need this."},{"startTime":2137.965,"endTime":2138.17,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2138.17,"endTime":2141.8,"body":"This is how mm-hmm . Whereas to"},{"startTime":2138.17,"endTime":2141.8,"body":"your point, you would come in in"},{"startTime":2141.8,"endTime":2143.12,"body":"and say, why don't we have that now?"},{"startTime":2143.33,"endTime":2144.08,"body":"Mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":2144.35,"endTime":2146.78,"body":"Let's look at the causal"},{"startTime":2144.35,"endTime":2146.78,"body":"factors there mm-hmm  and see"},{"startTime":2146.78,"endTime":2148.28,"body":"if we can remedy some of those."},{"startTime":2148.35,"endTime":2148.64,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2148.92,"endTime":2152.34,"body":"in the spirit of arguing agile or"},{"startTime":2148.92,"endTime":2152.34,"body":"in the passive aggressive spirit."},{"startTime":2152.82,"endTime":2155.04,"body":"I don't want make one, it could"},{"startTime":2152.82,"endTime":2155.04,"body":"be anything at this point."},{"startTime":2155.31,"endTime":2156.6,"body":"There's  three different cases."},{"startTime":2157.59,"endTime":2158.88,"body":"This is, this is the German three."},{"startTime":2158.96,"endTime":2159.25,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2159.25,"endTime":2162.97,"body":"But yeah, there's three different"},{"startTime":2159.25,"endTime":2162.97,"body":"cases is the PM who comes from"},{"startTime":2162.97,"endTime":2165.91,"body":"a technical background, the PM"},{"startTime":2162.97,"endTime":2165.91,"body":"who comes from a non-technical"},{"startTime":2165.91,"endTime":2167.32,"body":"background and then the brand new PM."},{"startTime":2167.32,"endTime":2169.42,"body":"Mm-hmm,  straight outta"},{"startTime":2167.32,"endTime":2169.42,"body":"school, brand new PM."},{"startTime":2169.84,"endTime":2173.23,"body":"I feel the case you're talking about now"},{"startTime":2169.84,"endTime":2173.23,"body":"of the, the person who's like, oh, I'm"},{"startTime":2173.235,"endTime":2176.23,"body":"gonna go straight to solution or, oh, I"},{"startTime":2173.235,"endTime":2176.23,"body":"know how to solve the problem and jump"},{"startTime":2176.23,"endTime":2180.22,"body":"to, it could be the PM with the technical"},{"startTime":2176.23,"endTime":2180.22,"body":"background, but it also could be the PM."},{"startTime":2180.27,"endTime":2183.18,"body":"Who's straight outta school, or has"},{"startTime":2180.27,"endTime":2183.18,"body":"very little experience being like, well,"},{"startTime":2183.18,"endTime":2184.53,"body":"they told me that this is that's right."},{"startTime":2184.77,"endTime":2185.52,"body":"It must be true."},{"startTime":2185.52,"endTime":2185.79,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2185.795,"endTime":2185.94,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2186.09,"endTime":2186.93,"body":"They don't question it."},{"startTime":2186.93,"endTime":2192.0,"body":"So the non-technical PM with industry"},{"startTime":2186.93,"endTime":2192.0,"body":"experience in with domain experience"},{"startTime":2192.09,"endTime":2197.55,"body":"in this case, I would hope it, like if"},{"startTime":2192.09,"endTime":2197.55,"body":"I had to put money on that's, I guess"},{"startTime":2197.55,"endTime":2198.72,"body":"that's where I'm going with this example."},{"startTime":2198.96,"endTime":2202.95,"body":"If I had to put money on the person that"},{"startTime":2198.96,"endTime":2202.95,"body":"was willing to question the status quo."},{"startTime":2202.98,"endTime":2208.11,"body":"In this example, I would put my money"},{"startTime":2202.98,"endTime":2208.11,"body":"on the PM who doesn't have a technical"},{"startTime":2208.11,"endTime":2213.975,"body":"background, but came from industry"},{"startTime":2208.11,"endTime":2213.975,"body":"domain expertise to say oh, you, you"},{"startTime":2213.975,"endTime":2218.085,"body":"think the answer to this problem is"},{"startTime":2213.975,"endTime":2218.085,"body":"to increase engagement on website"},{"startTime":2218.09,"endTime":2220.635,"body":"by 20%, 50%, 80%, whatever it is,"},{"startTime":2221.135,"endTime":2227.045,"body":"show me what leads you to believe that"},{"startTime":2221.135,"endTime":2227.045,"body":"that is the solution mm-hmm  okay."},{"startTime":2227.095,"endTime":2232.015,"body":"because that like the bravery to"},{"startTime":2227.095,"endTime":2232.015,"body":"ask that question again, we're"},{"startTime":2232.015,"endTime":2234.445,"body":"going to the principles now we're"},{"startTime":2232.015,"endTime":2234.445,"body":"going back to the principles, right?"},{"startTime":2234.445,"endTime":2234.446,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2234.535,"endTime":2238.059,"body":"The bravery to ask that question I almost"},{"startTime":2234.535,"endTime":2238.059,"body":"don't even want to get into this cuz"},{"startTime":2238.109,"endTime":2240.149,"body":"Ooh, look, I can't go 82 minutes again."},{"startTime":2240.349,"endTime":2242.269,"body":"the bravery to ask that question."},{"startTime":2242.479,"endTime":2245.659,"body":"I almost wanna say like, that's"},{"startTime":2242.479,"endTime":2245.659,"body":"not necessarily related to any BA"},{"startTime":2245.809,"endTime":2250.759,"body":"PM background, domain background,"},{"startTime":2245.809,"endTime":2250.759,"body":"technical non-technical it's we've"},{"startTime":2250.759,"endTime":2254.854,"body":"come to another level now  the most"},{"startTime":2250.759,"endTime":2254.854,"body":"effective PMs that I have worked with"},{"startTime":2255.724,"endTime":2260.854,"body":"are willing to Wade in and question,"},{"startTime":2255.724,"endTime":2260.854,"body":"whoever is asking for things at every"},{"startTime":2260.854,"endTime":2265.324,"body":"level to say like, please show your work."},{"startTime":2266.204,"endTime":2272.114,"body":"But not every not every customer who's"},{"startTime":2266.204,"endTime":2272.114,"body":"given you a lot of money, not every VP."},{"startTime":2272.114,"endTime":2275.714,"body":"Who's got a big, shiny title, not"},{"startTime":2272.114,"endTime":2275.714,"body":"every highest paid person in the room."},{"startTime":2276.314,"endTime":2280.574,"body":"They may not take kindly to being"},{"startTime":2276.314,"endTime":2280.574,"body":"questioned, I guess that's my,"},{"startTime":2280.994,"endTime":2282.344,"body":"It's my opening to this topic."},{"startTime":2282.344,"endTime":2283.874,"body":"Yeah, no, this is a great topic."},{"startTime":2284.184,"endTime":2286.744,"body":"I think it takes a certain"},{"startTime":2284.184,"endTime":2286.744,"body":"amount of how should I put this?"},{"startTime":2287.564,"endTime":2291.874,"body":"Chutzpah, to question that, right."},{"startTime":2291.914,"endTime":2296.534,"body":"I think if you have that technical"},{"startTime":2291.914,"endTime":2296.534,"body":"background, you automatically don't"},{"startTime":2296.534,"endTime":2299.474,"body":"question that because leadership's"},{"startTime":2296.534,"endTime":2299.474,"body":"telling you, this is what they need."},{"startTime":2299.474,"endTime":2302.654,"body":"So you're gonna just go ahead"},{"startTime":2299.474,"endTime":2302.654,"body":"and say, that's a given, right?"},{"startTime":2302.924,"endTime":2304.034,"body":"They're saying they need this."},{"startTime":2304.034,"endTime":2305.054,"body":"Let's go make it happen."},{"startTime":2305.474,"endTime":2308.864,"body":"As opposed to somebody who"},{"startTime":2305.474,"endTime":2308.864,"body":"comes in and says, do you, why?"},{"startTime":2308.954,"endTime":2309.224,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2309.364,"endTime":2309.654,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2310.124,"endTime":2314.594,"body":"Well, I mean that like not, not cool to"},{"startTime":2310.124,"endTime":2314.594,"body":"interrupt, but like the, no, that's fine."},{"startTime":2314.594,"endTime":2319.844,"body":"The arguing point to that is like, if"},{"startTime":2314.594,"endTime":2319.844,"body":"you can deal with the low hanging fruit"},{"startTime":2319.874,"endTime":2323.294,"body":"and knock off the quick stuff and get"},{"startTime":2319.874,"endTime":2323.294,"body":"some quick wins, especially in your"},{"startTime":2323.294,"endTime":2326.744,"body":"first 90 days as a PM, your first 90"},{"startTime":2323.294,"endTime":2326.744,"body":"days, you're looking to knock off the"},{"startTime":2326.744,"endTime":2330.914,"body":"low hanging fruit as fast as possible"},{"startTime":2326.744,"endTime":2330.914,"body":"to prove that you can do, especially"},{"startTime":2330.934,"endTime":2333.954,"body":"the, the more dangerous the environment."},{"startTime":2334.254,"endTime":2335.634,"body":"the more you're looking to do this."},{"startTime":2335.634,"endTime":2338.814,"body":"Like, let me knock out some quick"},{"startTime":2335.634,"endTime":2338.814,"body":"wins and prove that I'm the go-to guy."},{"startTime":2338.814,"endTime":2340.664,"body":"And that is reality to new PMs."},{"startTime":2340.664,"endTime":2343.214,"body":"And almost everybody will tell"},{"startTime":2340.664,"endTime":2343.214,"body":"you in a new PM, like go after"},{"startTime":2343.214,"endTime":2346.094,"body":"this stuff, that's low hanging"},{"startTime":2343.214,"endTime":2346.094,"body":"that you could deal with quickly."},{"startTime":2346.904,"endTime":2347.024,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2347.024,"endTime":2348.584,"body":"In order to establish your credibility."},{"startTime":2348.584,"endTime":2349.274,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2349.279,"endTime":2349.604,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2349.664,"endTime":2350.294,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":2350.294,"endTime":2351.434,"body":"And that's just human nature."},{"startTime":2351.439,"endTime":2352.694,"body":"It's gonna happen no matter what."},{"startTime":2353.534,"endTime":2357.894,"body":"But that's still short lived, cuz"},{"startTime":2353.534,"endTime":2357.894,"body":"say you are in now, 90 days are over."},{"startTime":2357.894,"endTime":2358.764,"body":"You're at 180."},{"startTime":2358.974,"endTime":2363.534,"body":"What happens if you continue the"},{"startTime":2358.974,"endTime":2363.534,"body":"same behavior, you're just gonna"},{"startTime":2363.539,"endTime":2365.304,"body":"fall in with the rank and file."},{"startTime":2365.354,"endTime":2368.384,"body":"You're not really"},{"startTime":2365.354,"endTime":2368.384,"body":"challenging the status quo."},{"startTime":2368.474,"endTime":2370.814,"body":"And that might be okay in"},{"startTime":2368.474,"endTime":2370.814,"body":"certain organizations where"},{"startTime":2370.814,"endTime":2371.714,"body":"they don't want you to."},{"startTime":2371.924,"endTime":2372.214,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2372.219,"endTime":2375.759,"body":"they hire you because they want"},{"startTime":2372.219,"endTime":2375.759,"body":"you to just stay in your lane."},{"startTime":2375.969,"endTime":2376.149,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2376.149,"endTime":2376.299,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2376.359,"endTime":2382.269,"body":"And that's, that's where you say, well, 90"},{"startTime":2376.359,"endTime":2382.269,"body":"days are come and gone and under 80 yeah."},{"startTime":2382.269,"endTime":2384.079,"body":"Time to dust off their resume."},{"startTime":2384.349,"endTime":2384.589,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2384.769,"endTime":2388.159,"body":"And I would say that there's a lot"},{"startTime":2384.769,"endTime":2388.159,"body":"of organizations that actually start"},{"startTime":2388.159,"endTime":2389.989,"body":"and never give you that 90 days."},{"startTime":2390.029,"endTime":2393.149,"body":"Maybe, I mean, low hanging fruit"},{"startTime":2390.029,"endTime":2393.149,"body":"may be a great way to prove"},{"startTime":2393.149,"endTime":2396.539,"body":"your worth, but might not in all"},{"startTime":2393.149,"endTime":2396.539,"body":"situations be the best approach."},{"startTime":2396.959,"endTime":2401.669,"body":"But even I think more importantly, my"},{"startTime":2396.959,"endTime":2401.669,"body":"point is that might not be an opportunity"},{"startTime":2401.669,"endTime":2408.689,"body":"that's given to you as a product owner"},{"startTime":2401.669,"endTime":2408.689,"body":"who is really not an owner of anything."},{"startTime":2408.719,"endTime":2409.109,"body":"Oh, no doubt."},{"startTime":2409.139,"endTime":2409.499,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2409.499,"endTime":2414.599,"body":"So your example earlier was Hey, you're"},{"startTime":2409.499,"endTime":2414.599,"body":"the product owner of, and, and I've"},{"startTime":2414.604,"endTime":2421.734,"body":"been in this situation of a completely"},{"startTime":2414.604,"endTime":2421.734,"body":"offshore team, which I've worked very well"},{"startTime":2421.734,"endTime":2426.714,"body":"with offshore teams in this particular"},{"startTime":2421.734,"endTime":2426.714,"body":"instance, it worked horribly because I"},{"startTime":2426.714,"endTime":2433.884,"body":"was only permitted to have contact with"},{"startTime":2426.714,"endTime":2433.884,"body":"that one lead dev who divvied out and"},{"startTime":2433.884,"endTime":2437.454,"body":"was the leader and was making his mark."},{"startTime":2437.484,"endTime":2444.164,"body":"And so this gets back to as well as"},{"startTime":2437.484,"endTime":2444.164,"body":"thinking about, okay, what incentives are"},{"startTime":2444.164,"endTime":2447.734,"body":"driving these people for these actions?"},{"startTime":2447.734,"endTime":2451.779,"body":"And I was seeing that left and right,"},{"startTime":2447.734,"endTime":2451.779,"body":"and the incentives were very self-serving"},{"startTime":2451.869,"endTime":2456.729,"body":"and , damned be you Hey, you're if"},{"startTime":2451.869,"endTime":2456.729,"body":"you're not serving my purposes that sure."},{"startTime":2457.209,"endTime":2460.239,"body":"But there's a couple of things I"},{"startTime":2457.209,"endTime":2460.239,"body":"wanna just say in regards to the"},{"startTime":2460.239,"endTime":2467.009,"body":"three stances and that was PPO new"},{"startTime":2460.239,"endTime":2467.009,"body":"to technology completely, but has"},{"startTime":2467.009,"endTime":2474.319,"body":"some domain expertise versus, so a"},{"startTime":2467.009,"endTime":2474.319,"body":"technical background coming into P NPO"},{"startTime":2474.324,"endTime":2478.909,"body":"mm-hmm  versus new to the industry."},{"startTime":2479.059,"endTime":2483.259,"body":"Graduate has some certifications,"},{"startTime":2479.059,"endTime":2483.259,"body":"no experience in either."},{"startTime":2483.759,"endTime":2491.709,"body":"I would say that so much depends on"},{"startTime":2483.759,"endTime":2491.709,"body":"the organization you're working with."},{"startTime":2492.609,"endTime":2498.899,"body":"You mentioned mentorship and,  one on"},{"startTime":2492.609,"endTime":2498.899,"body":"ones and guidance psychological safety"},{"startTime":2498.904,"endTime":2504.929,"body":"has come up multiple times trust culture"},{"startTime":2498.904,"endTime":2504.929,"body":"but what I would say is that every one"},{"startTime":2504.929,"endTime":2512.559,"body":"of those three types of PMs and POS can"},{"startTime":2504.929,"endTime":2512.559,"body":"be absolutely and wonderfully effective."},{"startTime":2512.739,"endTime":2512.829,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2513.219,"endTime":2513.339,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2513.369,"endTime":2514.059,"body":"Like, right."},{"startTime":2514.064,"endTime":2518.774,"body":"So, the product owner with a technical"},{"startTime":2514.064,"endTime":2518.774,"body":"background doesn't necessarily"},{"startTime":2518.774,"endTime":2521.234,"body":"always delve into the how, right."},{"startTime":2521.264,"endTime":2525.344,"body":"So it may be something initially,"},{"startTime":2521.264,"endTime":2525.344,"body":"particularly as they're learning that PMPM"},{"startTime":2525.349,"endTime":2528.854,"body":"role, that might be difficult, but if they"},{"startTime":2525.349,"endTime":2528.854,"body":"understand their role and they understand"},{"startTime":2528.854,"endTime":2532.669,"body":"that's not what they are supposed to"},{"startTime":2528.854,"endTime":2532.669,"body":"be doing that may be a practice in"},{"startTime":2532.674,"endTime":2537.644,"body":"understanding your role, understanding"},{"startTime":2532.674,"endTime":2537.644,"body":"overstepping, you're probably gonna make"},{"startTime":2537.644,"endTime":2544.064,"body":"mistakes because it's in your nature,"},{"startTime":2537.644,"endTime":2544.064,"body":"learning from them pivoting and becoming a"},{"startTime":2544.069,"endTime":2546.524,"body":"better and better product owner as you go."},{"startTime":2546.674,"endTime":2547.124,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2547.394,"endTime":2550.309,"body":"Additionally that new to tech."},{"startTime":2550.829,"endTime":2556.619,"body":"Domain experience, they can actually"},{"startTime":2550.829,"endTime":2556.619,"body":"come in with some real bias in regards"},{"startTime":2556.619,"endTime":2562.799,"body":"to the needs of even though they can"},{"startTime":2556.619,"endTime":2562.799,"body":"be very enlightening, they can also be"},{"startTime":2562.799,"endTime":2567.879,"body":"very biased and potentially be guiding"},{"startTime":2562.799,"endTime":2567.879,"body":"based on their personal experience"},{"startTime":2568.059,"endTime":2570.129,"body":"in the wrong direction for a product."},{"startTime":2570.219,"endTime":2570.309,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2570.369,"endTime":2570.669,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2570.669,"endTime":2572.829,"body":"So there's some, I mean,"},{"startTime":2570.669,"endTime":2572.829,"body":"it really just depends."},{"startTime":2572.859,"endTime":2578.699,"body":"And then that new to the industry"},{"startTime":2572.859,"endTime":2578.699,"body":"completely can be somebody that happens"},{"startTime":2578.704,"endTime":2583.709,"body":"to be mentored by someone that is"},{"startTime":2578.704,"endTime":2583.709,"body":"absolutely fantastic, that understands"},{"startTime":2583.709,"endTime":2587.739,"body":"they're new to it, and that are"},{"startTime":2583.709,"endTime":2587.739,"body":"guiding them absolutely fantastically."},{"startTime":2587.739,"endTime":2593.619,"body":"And here's someone that is on"},{"startTime":2587.739,"endTime":2593.619,"body":"the path, none of those are"},{"startTime":2593.624,"endTime":2595.569,"body":"going to be perfect all the time."},{"startTime":2595.569,"endTime":2598.629,"body":"But as long as they're in a culture"},{"startTime":2595.569,"endTime":2598.629,"body":"that has the opportunity and the"},{"startTime":2598.629,"endTime":2603.349,"body":"safety to fail, learn, and learn from"},{"startTime":2598.629,"endTime":2603.349,"body":"those mistakes and iterate from those."},{"startTime":2604.099,"endTime":2604.309,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2604.549,"endTime":2608.119,"body":"They're all gonna get better as long as"},{"startTime":2604.549,"endTime":2608.119,"body":"that's what they're, they're wanting to"},{"startTime":2608.119,"endTime":2609.469,"body":"do, and they have the culture to do it."},{"startTime":2609.474,"endTime":2612.739,"body":"And it's not just this control"},{"startTime":2609.474,"endTime":2612.739,"body":"and command kind of situation."},{"startTime":2612.849,"endTime":2617.814,"body":"Do you think that any of those"},{"startTime":2612.849,"endTime":2617.814,"body":"stereotypes would be more prone?"},{"startTime":2618.429,"endTime":2624.689,"body":"To being affected by the loud,"},{"startTime":2618.429,"endTime":2624.689,"body":"loudest screaming, stakeholder,"},{"startTime":2624.689,"endTime":2626.309,"body":"highest paid person in the room."},{"startTime":2626.309,"endTime":2626.729,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2626.729,"endTime":2627.869,"body":"Like potentially."},{"startTime":2627.929,"endTime":2628.079,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2628.079,"endTime":2630.429,"body":"Cuz like we talked about the,"},{"startTime":2628.079,"endTime":2630.429,"body":"we talked about the, like the"},{"startTime":2630.434,"endTime":2633.629,"body":"bravery in a culture of saying"},{"startTime":2630.434,"endTime":2633.629,"body":"like, Hey, show me your evidence."},{"startTime":2633.789,"endTime":2635.699,"body":"again is assumption this"},{"startTime":2633.789,"endTime":2635.699,"body":"is not based on anything."},{"startTime":2636.209,"endTime":2639.949,"body":"I think that the the person straight outta"},{"startTime":2636.209,"endTime":2639.949,"body":"school that was hired into this PM role"},{"startTime":2639.949,"endTime":2644.899,"body":"or whatever, like I think they're probably"},{"startTime":2639.949,"endTime":2644.899,"body":"the least likely out of these three pools"},{"startTime":2645.139,"endTime":2647.359,"body":"to say oh, show me your evidence, Mr."},{"startTime":2647.839,"endTime":2650.299,"body":"Importance, stakeholder or perhaps, or Mr."},{"startTime":2650.299,"endTime":2653.839,"body":"Director or development  or director of"},{"startTime":2650.299,"endTime":2653.839,"body":"product, for example, like they could be"},{"startTime":2653.844,"endTime":2656.029,"body":"questioning their own boss, a VP product."},{"startTime":2656.034,"endTime":2656.539,"body":"For example,"},{"startTime":2656.809,"endTime":2657.979,"body":"to answer the question."},{"startTime":2657.979,"endTime":2665.389,"body":"I would say that , I have known"},{"startTime":2657.979,"endTime":2665.389,"body":"people new out of school who are"},{"startTime":2665.389,"endTime":2667.489,"body":"so freaking full of themselves."},{"startTime":2667.489,"endTime":2669.224,"body":"They are 20 something year old."},{"startTime":2669.224,"endTime":2671.324,"body":"They know everything there"},{"startTime":2669.224,"endTime":2671.324,"body":"is to know in the world."},{"startTime":2671.324,"endTime":2674.114,"body":"They did their interview and know"},{"startTime":2671.324,"endTime":2674.114,"body":"more than everything that everybody"},{"startTime":2674.114,"endTime":2678.764,"body":"interviewed with them for I mean, so I"},{"startTime":2674.114,"endTime":2678.764,"body":"think it depends a lot on the personality."},{"startTime":2678.764,"endTime":2684.889,"body":"So extroversion versus intro introversion"},{"startTime":2678.764,"endTime":2684.889,"body":"versus certainly culture plays into this."},{"startTime":2685.309,"endTime":2689.719,"body":"I just, I don't think that there's"},{"startTime":2685.309,"endTime":2689.719,"body":"a stereotype that you can peg down"},{"startTime":2690.649,"endTime":2692.629,"body":"that there's too many variables."},{"startTime":2693.129,"endTime":2700.289,"body":"I constantly question to the point of my"},{"startTime":2693.129,"endTime":2700.289,"body":"own detriment have always been this way,"},{"startTime":2700.829,"endTime":2702.569,"body":"like Sunday school, they saw me coming."},{"startTime":2702.569,"endTime":2705.809,"body":"They're like, oh God, stormy here."},{"startTime":2706.334,"endTime":2709.754,"body":"So, I mean, never been"},{"startTime":2706.334,"endTime":2709.754,"body":"afraid to ask a question."},{"startTime":2710.204,"endTime":2713.804,"body":"And never been afraid to kind of"},{"startTime":2710.204,"endTime":2713.804,"body":"speak truth to power, which has"},{"startTime":2713.804,"endTime":2716.894,"body":"been, has served me well, but"},{"startTime":2713.804,"endTime":2716.894,"body":"has also been very detrimental."},{"startTime":2716.899,"endTime":2719.939,"body":"We have this discussion all the time"},{"startTime":2716.899,"endTime":2719.939,"body":"about we have it about Agile Coaches."},{"startTime":2719.959,"endTime":2721.999,"body":"We very rarely have it about product."},{"startTime":2722.004,"endTime":2728.099,"body":"People of there's a personality that like"},{"startTime":2722.004,"endTime":2728.099,"body":"there, you have a natural talent to being."},{"startTime":2728.954,"endTime":2731.474,"body":"an agile coach, scrum master agile coach."},{"startTime":2731.894,"endTime":2733.384,"body":"The same for this discussion."},{"startTime":2733.764,"endTime":2738.039,"body":"If you mainly think about yourself"},{"startTime":2733.764,"endTime":2738.039,"body":"in conversations and self-interest"},{"startTime":2738.369,"endTime":2741.799,"body":"is a top of mind, you're probably"},{"startTime":2738.369,"endTime":2741.799,"body":"not gonna make a great agile coach."},{"startTime":2741.919,"endTime":2745.139,"body":"Mm-hmm  if you really actually"},{"startTime":2741.919,"endTime":2745.139,"body":"care about people and it, like, it"},{"startTime":2745.139,"endTime":2748.619,"body":"bothers you to have bad relationships"},{"startTime":2745.139,"endTime":2748.619,"body":"with people, like you're prob"},{"startTime":2748.624,"endTime":2749.699,"body":"you're probably on the right track."},{"startTime":2749.769,"endTime":2755.459,"body":"Hence my recent decision to really"},{"startTime":2749.769,"endTime":2755.459,"body":"pivot in, in concentrate on scrum"},{"startTime":2755.459,"endTime":2761.019,"body":"mastery and agile coaching and, trying"},{"startTime":2755.459,"endTime":2761.019,"body":"to figure out where I fit in that"},{"startTime":2761.019,"endTime":2764.579,"body":"realm, because I from a personality"},{"startTime":2761.019,"endTime":2764.579,"body":"perspective, I feel like that's just a"},{"startTime":2764.579,"endTime":2767.639,"body":"better fit for me, perhaps, you know?"},{"startTime":2767.699,"endTime":2768.299,"body":"So we'll see."},{"startTime":2768.299,"endTime":2769.589,"body":"I mean, we'll see how, where that goes."},{"startTime":2769.589,"endTime":2774.119,"body":"I don't know, but oh, scrum master"},{"startTime":2769.589,"endTime":2774.119,"body":"is a better, better fit you think?"},{"startTime":2774.439,"endTime":2778.009,"body":"perhaps the other thing is actually,"},{"startTime":2774.439,"endTime":2778.009,"body":"I mean, the other thing that I've"},{"startTime":2778.014,"endTime":2782.119,"body":"actually done a lot of soul  searching"},{"startTime":2778.014,"endTime":2782.119,"body":"over is user experience, user research"},{"startTime":2782.119,"endTime":2786.349,"body":"specifically which I very much enjoy"},{"startTime":2787.199,"endTime":2791.769,"body":"it's worth trying out one or both of"},{"startTime":2787.199,"endTime":2791.769,"body":"those to see what really resonates"},{"startTime":2791.819,"endTime":2794.699,"body":"and I would say, it's not that I"},{"startTime":2791.819,"endTime":2794.699,"body":"don't enjoy being a product owner."},{"startTime":2794.699,"endTime":2795.449,"body":"I do."},{"startTime":2795.779,"endTime":2797.009,"body":"I love it."},{"startTime":2797.009,"endTime":2800.909,"body":"I think it has to do with just the"},{"startTime":2797.009,"endTime":2800.909,"body":"turmoil particularly right now."},{"startTime":2800.939,"endTime":2805.649,"body":"Like it's, it seems to have come to a"},{"startTime":2800.939,"endTime":2805.649,"body":"head, at least for me since I've started."},{"startTime":2805.859,"endTime":2810.369,"body":"And I think we touched on this , there's"},{"startTime":2805.859,"endTime":2810.369,"body":"just such a disconnect and, and no"},{"startTime":2810.699,"endTime":2815.949,"body":"consensus as far as what a product manager"},{"startTime":2810.699,"endTime":2815.949,"body":"versus a product owner, are they together?"},{"startTime":2815.949,"endTime":2816.969,"body":"Are they separate?"},{"startTime":2816.969,"endTime":2818.469,"body":"Is there hierarchy?"},{"startTime":2818.889,"endTime":2824.979,"body":"And it's just, there's so much confusion"},{"startTime":2818.889,"endTime":2824.979,"body":"and so much politics with it that it's,"},{"startTime":2825.849,"endTime":2828.069,"body":"that, that is what's disconcerting to me."},{"startTime":2828.069,"endTime":2833.589,"body":"And it's not, it's impacting the"},{"startTime":2828.069,"endTime":2833.589,"body":"ability for me to do my job properly"},{"startTime":2834.189,"endTime":2839.079,"body":"and well, and I think that that's been"},{"startTime":2834.189,"endTime":2839.079,"body":"my motivation to say, how can I pivot"},{"startTime":2839.079,"endTime":2841.959,"body":"and make myself valuable and happy?"}]}