{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.049,"endTime":1.31,"body":"Are we doing building the wrong thing?"},{"startTime":1.31,"endTime":2.18,"body":"Is that what we're talking about?"},{"startTime":2.18,"endTime":6.164,"body":"Building or the positive version"},{"startTime":2.18,"endTime":6.164,"body":"building the right thing."},{"startTime":6.584,"endTime":8.444,"body":"Let's talk about building"},{"startTime":6.584,"endTime":8.444,"body":"the right things."},{"startTime":8.474,"endTime":11.054,"body":"I mean, this is better those"},{"startTime":8.474,"endTime":11.054,"body":"are two different things."},{"startTime":11.264,"endTime":13.244,"body":"Let's build some wrong things, right?"},{"startTime":13.744,"endTime":15.244,"body":"Well, are we building"},{"startTime":13.744,"endTime":15.244,"body":"the wrong things, right?"},{"startTime":15.684,"endTime":16.804,"body":"I I've done that."},{"startTime":17.304,"endTime":18.114,"body":"building the wrong things."},{"startTime":18.114,"endTime":18.324,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":18.324,"endTime":19.104,"body":"I've done that too."},{"startTime":19.109,"endTime":22.914,"body":"The market just moved on by the time"},{"startTime":19.109,"endTime":22.914,"body":"we figured out what we were building"},{"startTime":22.984,"endTime":25.204,"body":"like the, the, the segue for this,"},{"startTime":25.564,"endTime":25.924,"body":"Hey Ted."},{"startTime":25.984,"endTime":26.974,"body":"Welcome the edge podcast."},{"startTime":27.094,"endTime":27.484,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":27.574,"endTime":28.324,"body":"Arguing agile."},{"startTime":28.804,"endTime":29.284,"body":"could be anything."},{"startTime":29.284,"endTime":30.714,"body":"I forgot what the name of our podcast is."},{"startTime":30.714,"endTime":31.654,"body":"You have no idea what"},{"startTime":30.714,"endTime":31.654,"body":"the name of your own."},{"startTime":31.834,"endTime":31.994,"body":"I have."},{"startTime":31.994,"endTime":32.794,"body":"No idea is arguing agile."},{"startTime":32.934,"endTime":33.714,"body":"That's what it is."},{"startTime":33.934,"endTime":35.194,"body":"I've been doing too many episodes."},{"startTime":35.674,"endTime":39.184,"body":"I've been in organizations where"},{"startTime":35.674,"endTime":39.184,"body":"they say, listen, just build"},{"startTime":39.844,"endTime":41.014,"body":"what I'm asking you to build."},{"startTime":41.524,"endTime":46.424,"body":"And then, if you build it, customers"},{"startTime":41.524,"endTime":46.424,"body":"build it and they will come."},{"startTime":46.574,"endTime":47.654,"body":"And that always works."},{"startTime":47.654,"endTime":47.894,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":48.144,"endTime":50.214,"body":", knowing actually it almost never works."},{"startTime":50.294,"endTime":55.904,"body":"I've been in a lot of organizations"},{"startTime":50.294,"endTime":55.904,"body":"where your product led, meaning we"},{"startTime":55.909,"endTime":60.764,"body":"try something and we pivot based"},{"startTime":55.909,"endTime":60.764,"body":"on the results versus sales led,"},{"startTime":60.764,"endTime":62.514,"body":"meaning, , the customer tells me."},{"startTime":63.204,"endTime":68.034,"body":"If I produce X widget and Y"},{"startTime":63.204,"endTime":68.034,"body":"widget, they will sign a deal"},{"startTime":68.039,"endTime":72.284,"body":"for, , Z number of dollars,"},{"startTime":68.039,"endTime":72.284,"body":"that's like a promised prosperity."},{"startTime":72.284,"endTime":73.184,"body":"I will buy."},{"startTime":73.184,"endTime":73.304,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":73.484,"endTime":74.924,"body":"Just Scott build it."},{"startTime":74.954,"endTime":79.719,"body":"I mean, if we agree to build"},{"startTime":74.954,"endTime":79.719,"body":"X functionality, you will sign"},{"startTime":79.719,"endTime":81.369,"body":"on for Y number of dollars."},{"startTime":81.429,"endTime":82.869,"body":"Here's a contract Mr."},{"startTime":82.869,"endTime":83.349,"body":"Customer."},{"startTime":83.469,"endTime":85.289,"body":"There'll be people out there"},{"startTime":83.469,"endTime":85.289,"body":"are listening us saying like,"},{"startTime":85.739,"endTime":86.489,"body":"what are you talking about?"},{"startTime":86.489,"endTime":87.299,"body":"That's reality."},{"startTime":87.419,"endTime":87.709,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":88.209,"endTime":93.819,"body":"But, but, but that, that all that ignores"},{"startTime":88.209,"endTime":93.819,"body":"what we've built X functionality, you pay"},{"startTime":93.819,"endTime":98.484,"body":"us some money and still, no one's using"},{"startTime":93.819,"endTime":98.484,"body":"the functionality, but if you've built"},{"startTime":98.484,"endTime":101.814,"body":"your entire business on that model of."},{"startTime":102.314,"endTime":106.604,"body":". I want you to build X and as long"},{"startTime":102.314,"endTime":106.604,"body":"as you build X, no matter whether"},{"startTime":106.664,"endTime":109.514,"body":"somebody uses it or not, I'm"},{"startTime":106.664,"endTime":109.514,"body":"going to give you money for that."},{"startTime":109.754,"endTime":114.884,"body":"That's a different business model"},{"startTime":109.754,"endTime":114.884,"body":"than what we hope we're driving"},{"startTime":114.889,"endTime":120.604,"body":"toward, which is give us a small"},{"startTime":114.889,"endTime":120.604,"body":"improvement every so often."},{"startTime":120.724,"endTime":122.284,"body":"Maybe that's two weeks,"},{"startTime":120.724,"endTime":122.284,"body":"maybe it's a month."},{"startTime":122.284,"endTime":125.454,"body":"Maybe it's longer than that,"},{"startTime":122.284,"endTime":125.454,"body":"but it's a small change."},{"startTime":125.484,"endTime":126.354,"body":"Hopefully it's improvement."},{"startTime":126.354,"endTime":129.174,"body":"It's a small change and we give it"},{"startTime":126.354,"endTime":129.174,"body":"to you and we see how you like it."},{"startTime":129.264,"endTime":129.444,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":129.474,"endTime":131.934,"body":"And then we, as a business"},{"startTime":129.474,"endTime":131.934,"body":"say, oh, they seem to like that"},{"startTime":131.934,"endTime":132.924,"body":"thing, give 'em more of that."},{"startTime":132.924,"endTime":136.644,"body":"Or, or improve it a little bit,"},{"startTime":132.924,"endTime":136.644,"body":"give them a little something"},{"startTime":136.704,"endTime":141.674,"body":"different as opposed to like, like"},{"startTime":136.704,"endTime":141.674,"body":"you said, build me this big thing."},{"startTime":141.704,"endTime":145.814,"body":"And that's where I think the,"},{"startTime":141.704,"endTime":145.814,"body":"we built the wrong thing."},{"startTime":146.204,"endTime":148.964,"body":"Problem comes in because if you're"},{"startTime":146.204,"endTime":148.964,"body":"doing it incrementally, you've"},{"startTime":148.964,"endTime":150.284,"body":"never built the wrong thing."},{"startTime":150.374,"endTime":154.964,"body":"You've just built a tiny thing that people"},{"startTime":150.374,"endTime":154.964,"body":"didn't like mm-hmm  and that's fine."},{"startTime":155.464,"endTime":159.714,"body":"Yeah, I'd say, I'd probably reframe that"},{"startTime":155.464,"endTime":159.714,"body":"and say, instead of you built this tiny"},{"startTime":159.714,"endTime":164.814,"body":"thing that people didn't like, it's they"},{"startTime":159.714,"endTime":164.814,"body":"got an early look and they basically"},{"startTime":164.814,"endTime":167.874,"body":"nudged you in the right direction"},{"startTime":164.814,"endTime":167.874,"body":"of what they're really looking for."},{"startTime":168.024,"endTime":168.204,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":168.234,"endTime":172.584,"body":"So whenever you release something"},{"startTime":168.234,"endTime":172.584,"body":"to them, it isn't foreign to them."},{"startTime":172.674,"endTime":173.244,"body":"Like, okay."},{"startTime":173.304,"endTime":173.964,"body":"Oh, wow."},{"startTime":174.054,"endTime":174.564,"body":"That's great."},{"startTime":174.964,"endTime":176.304,"body":"I said, we don't use it that way."},{"startTime":176.304,"endTime":177.414,"body":"We don't want that."},{"startTime":177.754,"endTime":181.504,"body":"That that element of surprise can"},{"startTime":177.754,"endTime":181.504,"body":"be avoided by incorporating your"},{"startTime":181.509,"endTime":182.884,"body":"customers through your journey."},{"startTime":183.394,"endTime":188.919,"body":"And companies that are building"},{"startTime":183.394,"endTime":188.919,"body":"the right thing often you'll find"},{"startTime":189.249,"endTime":191.409,"body":"will have the customer with them."},{"startTime":191.529,"endTime":191.879,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":192.009,"endTime":192.359,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":192.409,"endTime":193.339,"body":"throughout the journey."},{"startTime":193.549,"endTime":197.744,"body":"So vet the ideas and not just at"},{"startTime":193.549,"endTime":197.744,"body":"the beginning and then some interim"},{"startTime":197.744,"endTime":203.504,"body":"points at frequent checkpoints within"},{"startTime":197.744,"endTime":203.504,"body":"the process is we said, last time,"},{"startTime":203.534,"endTime":204.884,"body":"this is what we kind of discussed."},{"startTime":205.034,"endTime":207.024,"body":"Is this, am I on the right right."},{"startTime":207.024,"endTime":210.444,"body":"Track here, if not be prepared"},{"startTime":207.024,"endTime":210.444,"body":"to pivot and pivot quickly."},{"startTime":211.219,"endTime":215.419,"body":"And that's what you mentioned"},{"startTime":211.219,"endTime":215.419,"body":"is having the customer there."},{"startTime":215.509,"endTime":221.809,"body":"Mm-hmm  at, at key points, it's"},{"startTime":215.509,"endTime":221.809,"body":"not just have the management or"},{"startTime":221.809,"endTime":226.339,"body":"just have a stakeholder, just have"},{"startTime":221.809,"endTime":226.339,"body":"somebody who's signing off on a thing."},{"startTime":227.029,"endTime":227.419,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":227.449,"endTime":232.549,"body":"To be in the room or to sign off on"},{"startTime":227.449,"endTime":232.549,"body":"the thing it's having the person who's"},{"startTime":232.549,"endTime":236.534,"body":"going to be using this thing have"},{"startTime":232.549,"endTime":236.534,"body":"representatives, of people who are gonna"},{"startTime":236.534,"endTime":242.264,"body":"use this thing there every step of the"},{"startTime":236.534,"endTime":242.264,"body":"way to say yes, this thing works for us."},{"startTime":243.164,"endTime":244.124,"body":"Yeah, indeed."},{"startTime":244.124,"endTime":244.664,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":244.669,"endTime":246.764,"body":"So proxy customers is a fallacy."},{"startTime":246.954,"endTime":250.159,"body":"You assume that somebody within"},{"startTime":246.954,"endTime":250.159,"body":"your organization knows what the"},{"startTime":250.159,"endTime":253.39,"body":"customer wants, because that's an"},{"startTime":250.159,"endTime":253.39,"body":"assumption they made mm-hmm  and they"},{"startTime":253.395,"endTime":254.929,"body":"said, well, I know what they want."},{"startTime":254.989,"endTime":255.799,"body":"They want this."},{"startTime":255.859,"endTime":257.839,"body":"Yeah, we always do this on the podcast."},{"startTime":257.839,"endTime":260.929,"body":"So there are very, very"},{"startTime":257.839,"endTime":260.929,"body":"few exceptions to that."},{"startTime":261.389,"endTime":264.479,"body":"there are some visionaries that"},{"startTime":261.389,"endTime":264.479,"body":"think through the problems."},{"startTime":264.869,"endTime":268.079,"body":"And say what the market's missing is X."},{"startTime":268.199,"endTime":271.229,"body":"And I go back to that when I"},{"startTime":268.199,"endTime":271.229,"body":"always go back to, which is"},{"startTime":271.829,"endTime":273.689,"body":"Steve jobs came up with the iPod."},{"startTime":273.749,"endTime":273.899,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":273.899,"endTime":275.219,"body":"He didn't ask people."},{"startTime":275.219,"endTime":280.299,"body":"He saw that people were lugging this"},{"startTime":275.219,"endTime":280.299,"body":"thing around it was a cassette player."},{"startTime":280.359,"endTime":280.569,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":280.629,"endTime":281.739,"body":"And he was quite big."},{"startTime":281.829,"endTime":284.709,"body":"And you strapped at this"},{"startTime":281.829,"endTime":284.709,"body":"side of your belt, right?"},{"startTime":284.709,"endTime":285.519,"body":"The Sony Walkman."},{"startTime":285.519,"endTime":288.699,"body":"But when the Walkman came out,"},{"startTime":285.519,"endTime":288.699,"body":"it was a big deal because, well,"},{"startTime":288.699,"endTime":292.089,"body":"you've taken this portable cassette"},{"startTime":288.699,"endTime":292.089,"body":"player, portable luggable really,"},{"startTime":292.419,"endTime":294.039,"body":"and strike the form factor."},{"startTime":294.339,"endTime":298.059,"body":"He basically answered the need"},{"startTime":294.339,"endTime":298.059,"body":"of, you can only take so many"},{"startTime":298.059,"endTime":300.289,"body":"cassettes with you with the iPod."},{"startTime":300.309,"endTime":304.059,"body":"You can have hours of music"},{"startTime":300.309,"endTime":304.059,"body":"and it's with you all the time."},{"startTime":304.119,"endTime":304.389,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":304.419,"endTime":304.869,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":304.989,"endTime":307.449,"body":"And you can book podcasts"},{"startTime":304.989,"endTime":307.449,"body":"on, you could do that."},{"startTime":307.509,"endTime":309.219,"body":"Maybe even this podcast."},{"startTime":309.219,"endTime":309.979,"body":"Oh, no."},{"startTime":310.359,"endTime":310.599,"body":"Like"},{"startTime":310.599,"endTime":312.549,"body":"we've used that example a couple times."},{"startTime":312.579,"endTime":312.639,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":312.639,"endTime":316.659,"body":"We have, and I have to think,  and I"},{"startTime":312.639,"endTime":316.659,"body":"have to wonder if like Steve jobs in"},{"startTime":316.659,"endTime":320.499,"body":"that example, if he's not too high"},{"startTime":316.659,"endTime":320.499,"body":"level for the feedback we're talking"},{"startTime":320.504,"endTime":324.769,"body":"about, like the feedback I'm talking"},{"startTime":320.504,"endTime":324.769,"body":"about is like, Hey, I want to have, , my"},{"startTime":324.769,"endTime":328.519,"body":"entire music library, maybe he was"},{"startTime":324.769,"endTime":328.519,"body":"the guy in the room being like Hey,"},{"startTime":328.519,"endTime":330.559,"body":"I got this giant wall of records."},{"startTime":331.129,"endTime":331.759,"body":"This is Steve jobs."},{"startTime":331.764,"endTime":333.079,"body":"So he probably had a giant wall records."},{"startTime":333.589,"endTime":334.969,"body":"I got this giant wall of records."},{"startTime":335.059,"endTime":336.859,"body":"I wanna have those in my pocket."},{"startTime":337.549,"endTime":342.679,"body":"And that was at  the level, the,"},{"startTime":337.549,"endTime":342.679,"body":"the, the strategic level he was at."},{"startTime":343.174,"endTime":346.534,"body":"and then somebody had to take that and"},{"startTime":343.174,"endTime":346.534,"body":"break that down into smaller well, what"},{"startTime":346.534,"endTime":348.334,"body":"does that, I mean, what does that mean?"},{"startTime":348.724,"endTime":351.094,"body":"Does that mean one song,"},{"startTime":348.724,"endTime":351.094,"body":"two songs, a dozen songs."},{"startTime":351.149,"endTime":354.979,"body":"Maybe we start with 10 songs and"},{"startTime":351.149,"endTime":354.979,"body":"then we'll figure out how to manage"},{"startTime":354.979,"endTime":357.589,"body":"a catalog of, of thousand yeah."},{"startTime":357.594,"endTime":358.849,"body":"Thousand albums, right?"},{"startTime":358.849,"endTime":363.839,"body":"A thousand, 1,010 songs, or a thousand 15"},{"startTime":358.849,"endTime":363.839,"body":"songs or whatever, and whatever an album"},{"startTime":363.839,"endTime":368.359,"body":"was in the seventies or whatever Steve"},{"startTime":363.839,"endTime":368.359,"body":"jobs, it was  how old do you think we are?"},{"startTime":369.114,"endTime":369.709,"body":"don't answer that."},{"startTime":369.889,"endTime":370.399,"body":"Please."},{"startTime":370.739,"endTime":374.769,"body":"Those breakthroughs are really rare when"},{"startTime":370.739,"endTime":374.769,"body":"you think about any product, really?"},{"startTime":375.009,"endTime":378.609,"body":"It isn't that somebody just said,"},{"startTime":375.009,"endTime":378.609,"body":"okay, let's produce something and,"},{"startTime":378.669,"endTime":380.769,"body":"and, oh, that's gonna be a huge hit."},{"startTime":380.919,"endTime":381.129,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":381.189,"endTime":384.189,"body":"When you really look at where that"},{"startTime":381.189,"endTime":384.189,"body":"came from, what you're gonna find"},{"startTime":384.189,"endTime":386.019,"body":"is they've done their homework."},{"startTime":386.019,"endTime":390.219,"body":"They've figured out a real pain"},{"startTime":386.019,"endTime":390.219,"body":"point that they're trying to address."},{"startTime":390.579,"endTime":395.749,"body":"Now, the only thing is it may not be"},{"startTime":390.579,"endTime":395.749,"body":"across the spectrum of the customer base."},{"startTime":395.749,"endTime":399.919,"body":"It may be a given subset of that, and"},{"startTime":395.749,"endTime":399.919,"body":"that's nothing wrong with that, right?"},{"startTime":400.009,"endTime":402.139,"body":"That actually is an agile way of working."},{"startTime":402.139,"endTime":405.859,"body":"Because if it works with that subset,"},{"startTime":402.139,"endTime":405.859,"body":"there's a chance it might work with us."},{"startTime":405.889,"endTime":409.999,"body":"It may not, but there's a chance"},{"startTime":405.889,"endTime":409.999,"body":"that at least you'll be successful"},{"startTime":410.299,"endTime":412.429,"body":"marketing and selling that, that subset."},{"startTime":412.549,"endTime":412.699,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":413.569,"endTime":415.639,"body":"So it's not random when"},{"startTime":413.569,"endTime":415.639,"body":"these things happen."},{"startTime":415.699,"endTime":417.799,"body":"People might think it is, but it's not."},{"startTime":418.129,"endTime":419.299,"body":"I don't even know where"},{"startTime":418.129,"endTime":419.299,"body":"I was going with that."},{"startTime":419.459,"endTime":420.719,"body":"I'm on board where you're going."},{"startTime":420.719,"endTime":424.769,"body":"What I think of like product owner"},{"startTime":420.719,"endTime":424.769,"body":"specific, like one specific team, not"},{"startTime":424.769,"endTime":427.459,"body":"scaling with the leadership level."},{"startTime":427.609,"endTime":428.749,"body":"here's my vision."},{"startTime":428.989,"endTime":432.109,"body":"In the Amazon book or where they introduce"},{"startTime":428.989,"endTime":432.109,"body":"work, working backwards, basically."},{"startTime":432.109,"endTime":433.219,"body":"I can't remember the name of the book."},{"startTime":433.499,"endTime":437.254,"body":"They talk about  the, the in Amazon,"},{"startTime":433.499,"endTime":437.254,"body":"they would come up with the like"},{"startTime":437.259,"endTime":438.474,"body":"this, this is the end-state, right?."},{"startTime":439.254,"endTime":444.284,"body":"And one of, one of the original end"},{"startTime":439.254,"endTime":444.284,"body":"states for them is  users hate that"},{"startTime":444.504,"endTime":447.894,"body":"the shipping time, they, they, they,"},{"startTime":444.504,"endTime":447.894,"body":"they don't like the shipping time."},{"startTime":447.894,"endTime":450.834,"body":"So if you're gonna give someone free"},{"startTime":447.894,"endTime":450.834,"body":"shipping and take all that outta"},{"startTime":450.834,"endTime":453.744,"body":"the equation and be like, Hey, it's"},{"startTime":450.834,"endTime":453.744,"body":"gonna be to you within two days"},{"startTime":453.894,"endTime":454.914,"body":"and you don't have to pay for it."},{"startTime":455.514,"endTime":459.324,"body":"Like that was a revolutionary"},{"startTime":455.514,"endTime":459.324,"body":"breakthrough for them and catapulted"},{"startTime":459.324,"endTime":461.154,"body":"their service to the next level."},{"startTime":461.334,"endTime":464.154,"body":"that's probably like the worst"},{"startTime":461.334,"endTime":464.154,"body":"example I'm gonna give, cuz it"},{"startTime":464.159,"endTime":465.744,"body":"is a difficult, it's a service."},{"startTime":465.744,"endTime":466.794,"body":"It's not really a product."},{"startTime":466.854,"endTime":467.154,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":467.394,"endTime":470.454,"body":"But it's sort of both, it's"},{"startTime":467.394,"endTime":470.454,"body":"sort of both, it's like you need"},{"startTime":470.454,"endTime":471.354,"body":"the service and the product."},{"startTime":471.354,"endTime":473.034,"body":"So delivery is a product, I guess, right?"},{"startTime":473.254,"endTime":473.454,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":473.544,"endTime":473.754,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":473.754,"endTime":475.944,"body":"But, but you need the service"},{"startTime":473.754,"endTime":475.944,"body":"and the product together."},{"startTime":475.974,"endTime":476.184,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":476.214,"endTime":476.634,"body":"To do that."},{"startTime":476.634,"endTime":477.204,"body":"The product."},{"startTime":478.179,"endTime":482.559,"body":"when somebody buys something, you have to"},{"startTime":478.179,"endTime":482.559,"body":"make sure that it's, it's in a warehouse"},{"startTime":482.559,"endTime":485.079,"body":"available within the service distance."},{"startTime":485.259,"endTime":490.204,"body":"And you have to make sure that the service"},{"startTime":485.259,"endTime":490.204,"body":"team has capability to deliver it has"},{"startTime":490.259,"endTime":491.969,"body":"capacity, I guess, would be the word."},{"startTime":492.279,"endTime":494.709,"body":"So there, there's more involved in that."},{"startTime":494.709,"endTime":498.189,"body":"So that's why I say it's like,"},{"startTime":494.709,"endTime":498.189,"body":"it's a, it's a complicated example."},{"startTime":498.849,"endTime":499.989,"body":"I dunno if it's a great example."},{"startTime":500.049,"endTime":501.969,"body":"Well, but it's a hundred small things."},{"startTime":501.969,"endTime":502.449,"body":"It is."},{"startTime":502.454,"endTime":502.539,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":502.539,"endTime":502.689,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":502.989,"endTime":508.179,"body":"You know, and which ties back"},{"startTime":502.989,"endTime":508.179,"body":"to the small incremental change."},{"startTime":508.184,"endTime":508.419,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":508.419,"endTime":512.999,"body":"It's if like you just said, you have to"},{"startTime":508.419,"endTime":512.999,"body":"figure out is this thing available, so"},{"startTime":512.999,"endTime":519.989,"body":"let's make sure that we absolutely nail"},{"startTime":512.999,"endTime":519.989,"body":"down and optimize figuring out if that"},{"startTime":519.989,"endTime":521.729,"body":"thing where that thing is available."},{"startTime":521.729,"endTime":522.719,"body":"Is it in this warehouse?"},{"startTime":522.719,"endTime":523.709,"body":"Is it over here?"},{"startTime":523.769,"endTime":523.949,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":523.979,"endTime":524.939,"body":"How do we get there?"},{"startTime":524.939,"endTime":529.204,"body":"And they have the robots that now go"},{"startTime":524.939,"endTime":529.204,"body":"in and grab the individual item, but."},{"startTime":530.164,"endTime":536.194,"body":"every single step of that along the"},{"startTime":530.164,"endTime":536.194,"body":"way is an opportunity for the product"},{"startTime":536.194,"endTime":540.004,"body":"owner, for the team to be able to tweak"},{"startTime":536.194,"endTime":540.004,"body":"that just a little bit and say, how"},{"startTime":540.004,"endTime":542.014,"body":"can we get that a little bit better?"},{"startTime":542.074,"endTime":543.364,"body":"Mm-hmm  how can we get that?"},{"startTime":544.024,"endTime":549.274,"body":"You know, to get us closer from"},{"startTime":544.024,"endTime":549.274,"body":"two weeks shipping to two day"},{"startTime":549.274,"endTime":551.854,"body":"shipping to same day shipping."},{"startTime":551.859,"endTime":552.004,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":552.004,"endTime":552.244,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":552.244,"endTime":552.394,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":552.454,"endTime":556.234,"body":"So, and there are opportunities,"},{"startTime":552.454,"endTime":556.234,"body":"every single step of the way."},{"startTime":556.239,"endTime":556.294,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":556.294,"endTime":562.444,"body":"It's not, it's not a big bang launch"},{"startTime":556.294,"endTime":562.444,"body":"of they, he didn't say probably my"},{"startTime":562.444,"endTime":566.884,"body":"guess is he didn't say in a year,"},{"startTime":562.444,"endTime":566.884,"body":"six months, we're gonna have two"},{"startTime":566.884,"endTime":568.384,"body":"day shipping and it's gonna be free."},{"startTime":568.774,"endTime":573.214,"body":"He probably said something along"},{"startTime":568.774,"endTime":573.214,"body":"the lines of this is a problem."},{"startTime":573.244,"endTime":574.144,"body":"Figure it out."},{"startTime":574.264,"endTime":574.474,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":574.474,"endTime":574.714,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":574.714,"endTime":576.004,"body":"Get us to that place."},{"startTime":576.009,"endTime":576.084,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":576.544,"endTime":576.754,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":577.704,"endTime":579.714,"body":"The working backwards model."},{"startTime":579.824,"endTime":585.064,"body":"I'll find the book that I, this came"},{"startTime":579.824,"endTime":585.064,"body":"out of came out and Amazon dealt with"},{"startTime":585.064,"endTime":587.734,"body":"discovering and implementing it this way."},{"startTime":588.454,"endTime":589.054,"body":"I'm finding it."},{"startTime":589.144,"endTime":589.684,"body":"I swear."},{"startTime":590.184,"endTime":590.664,"body":"No, no."},{"startTime":590.664,"endTime":594.444,"body":"The book is called working backwards,"},{"startTime":590.664,"endTime":594.444,"body":"working backwards by Colin Breer"},{"startTime":594.449,"endTime":599.444,"body":"and bill car that's that's the book"},{"startTime":594.449,"endTime":599.444,"body":"because Amazon's model is they will,"},{"startTime":599.444,"endTime":604.384,"body":"when they want something done, they'll"},{"startTime":599.444,"endTime":604.384,"body":"choose a single threaded leader to"},{"startTime":604.384,"endTime":607.504,"body":"go lead the initiative and they'll"},{"startTime":604.384,"endTime":607.504,"body":"give them the budget and they'll give"},{"startTime":607.504,"endTime":608.884,"body":"they'll delegate the task of them."},{"startTime":609.004,"endTime":612.094,"body":"And then it'll be up to that single"},{"startTime":609.004,"endTime":612.094,"body":"threaded leader to go implement it."},{"startTime":612.364,"endTime":616.144,"body":"So like in, in my, in my brain,"},{"startTime":612.364,"endTime":616.144,"body":"that's the product manager."},{"startTime":616.264,"endTime":617.374,"body":"Hey, I, I want to."},{"startTime":617.874,"endTime":620.444,"body":"Figure out their, their whole"},{"startTime":617.874,"endTime":620.444,"body":"thing was rolled into like"},{"startTime":620.444,"endTime":621.614,"body":"customer loyalty and stuff."},{"startTime":621.619,"endTime":625.064,"body":"Like they, they knew shipping was"},{"startTime":621.619,"endTime":625.064,"body":"kind of the key to customer loyalty."},{"startTime":625.274,"endTime":629.245,"body":"It was the, the Amazon prime that everyone"},{"startTime":625.274,"endTime":629.245,"body":"uses now for, for shipping mm-hmm  was"},{"startTime":629.25,"endTime":630.554,"body":"the original way they implemented it."},{"startTime":630.854,"endTime":635.684,"body":"They handed it off to, to one person"},{"startTime":630.854,"endTime":635.684,"body":"and had them build basically the"},{"startTime":635.684,"endTime":638.234,"body":"whole program around it program."},{"startTime":638.264,"endTime":639.444,"body":"Well, customer experience."},{"startTime":639.674,"endTime":640.754,"body":"I hate to use terminology."},{"startTime":640.874,"endTime":641.504,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":641.504,"endTime":642.014,"body":"Nonsense."},{"startTime":642.014,"endTime":645.644,"body":"But they built the whole program around,"},{"startTime":642.014,"endTime":645.644,"body":"but, but they handed that off to somebody"},{"startTime":645.644,"endTime":651.404,"body":"and then that's that somebody engaged"},{"startTime":645.644,"endTime":651.404,"body":"in experiments over time to figure out"},{"startTime":651.404,"endTime":654.579,"body":"how we're gonna do it, how it's gonna"},{"startTime":651.404,"endTime":654.579,"body":"make its money and stuff like that."},{"startTime":654.679,"endTime":657.979,"body":"And then there's a bunch of other stuff"},{"startTime":654.679,"endTime":657.979,"body":"in that book that I can go into, but this"},{"startTime":657.979,"endTime":662.689,"body":"is, I'm trying not to turn this in the"},{"startTime":657.979,"endTime":662.689,"body":"podcast of the working backwards model."},{"startTime":663.489,"endTime":666.219,"body":"Are there any other examples"},{"startTime":663.489,"endTime":666.219,"body":"that we can think of like that."},{"startTime":667.029,"endTime":667.779,"body":"In the industry?"},{"startTime":667.809,"endTime":670.509,"body":"I mean like under the category"},{"startTime":667.809,"endTime":670.509,"body":"of getting feedback, I mean I"},{"startTime":670.509,"endTime":673.089,"body":"can think of a bunch of negative"},{"startTime":670.509,"endTime":673.089,"body":"examples I could argue against it."},{"startTime":673.089,"endTime":676.289,"body":"Like the arguing, the arguing"},{"startTime":673.089,"endTime":676.289,"body":"against it is like you might be"},{"startTime":676.289,"endTime":680.369,"body":"working like, you might be like,"},{"startTime":676.289,"endTime":680.369,"body":"oh, Brian Amazon's are ridiculous."},{"startTime":680.459,"endTime":684.604,"body":"Like not everyone works in Amazon and"},{"startTime":680.459,"endTime":684.604,"body":"all these Silicon valley, Facebook,"},{"startTime":684.604,"endTime":685.824,"body":"meta, whatever, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":685.824,"endTime":685.984,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":686.114,"endTime":689.494,"body":"The FAANG companies, like that's not"},{"startTime":686.114,"endTime":689.494,"body":"what the majority of people work at."},{"startTime":689.734,"endTime":693.414,"body":"The majority of people have to"},{"startTime":689.734,"endTime":693.414,"body":"take this evidence based approach"},{"startTime":693.624,"endTime":696.864,"body":"to building the right thing or"},{"startTime":693.624,"endTime":696.864,"body":"build even building the thing."},{"startTime":696.864,"endTime":697.194,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":697.199,"endTime":701.354,"body":"Even if we're going into that"},{"startTime":697.199,"endTime":701.354,"body":"category and you have to  adopt"},{"startTime":701.354,"endTime":704.024,"body":"that to your current culture."},{"startTime":704.594,"endTime":708.314,"body":"So sometimes management will come"},{"startTime":704.594,"endTime":708.314,"body":"down and be like, listen, you just"},{"startTime":708.314,"endTime":711.374,"body":"gotta build X, Y, Z, just do it."},{"startTime":711.379,"endTime":713.874,"body":"Just build X, Y, Z some like."},{"startTime":714.564,"endTime":717.564,"body":"You can't fault the teams for"},{"startTime":714.564,"endTime":717.564,"body":"just following orders, I guess."},{"startTime":717.564,"endTime":717.804,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":717.804,"endTime":719.664,"body":"But you'll get what you"},{"startTime":717.804,"endTime":719.664,"body":"get at the end of it."},{"startTime":719.724,"endTime":723.144,"body":"I mean, contrast that with"},{"startTime":719.724,"endTime":723.144,"body":"teams, that challenge that and"},{"startTime":723.144,"endTime":725.034,"body":"say, why are we building this?"},{"startTime":725.034,"endTime":728.694,"body":"I mean, almost like a five year old,"},{"startTime":725.034,"endTime":728.694,"body":"do the five whys we have to, why are we"},{"startTime":728.694,"endTime":731.724,"body":"building this well, because, okay, why?"},{"startTime":731.904,"endTime":732.234,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":732.234,"endTime":734.184,"body":"And just keep doing that"},{"startTime":732.234,"endTime":734.184,"body":"so you can understand it."},{"startTime":734.304,"endTime":740.404,"body":"The, the difficulty is oftentimes we don't"},{"startTime":734.304,"endTime":740.404,"body":"see teams challenging those decisions"},{"startTime":740.404,"endTime":743.944,"body":"because they're at the team level and"},{"startTime":740.404,"endTime":743.944,"body":"these people are higher, you know?"},{"startTime":743.944,"endTime":748.344,"body":"So I think it's the onus is on those"},{"startTime":743.944,"endTime":748.344,"body":"of us that are working with the"},{"startTime":748.344,"endTime":753.734,"body":"teams, scrum masters, agile coaches"},{"startTime":748.344,"endTime":753.734,"body":"CPOs, whoever to kind of encourage"},{"startTime":753.734,"endTime":755.174,"body":"the team to ask the questions."},{"startTime":755.384,"endTime":755.654,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":755.804,"endTime":761.174,"body":"And if that is not well received"},{"startTime":755.804,"endTime":761.174,"body":"in the organization, then ask"},{"startTime":761.174,"endTime":762.494,"body":"the questions on their behalf."},{"startTime":762.554,"endTime":762.674,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":762.674,"endTime":767.174,"body":"But do it in front of the team so they"},{"startTime":762.674,"endTime":767.174,"body":"can see that you are leading by example."},{"startTime":767.384,"endTime":768.884,"body":"It's okay to ask questions."},{"startTime":768.914,"endTime":772.904,"body":"If you do that in isolation, you are"},{"startTime":768.914,"endTime":772.904,"body":"just another one of those people that are"},{"startTime":772.904,"endTime":774.664,"body":"saying, well, no, no, build it this way."},{"startTime":774.664,"endTime":774.904,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":774.904,"endTime":775.994,"body":"Mm-hmm  and you don't want that."},{"startTime":776.774,"endTime":784.144,"body":"I've never been in an organization where"},{"startTime":776.774,"endTime":784.144,"body":"that sort of top down build this specific"},{"startTime":784.144,"endTime":790.759,"body":"thing never happened, but the best results"},{"startTime":784.144,"endTime":790.759,"body":"I've seen have come from, I want to move"},{"startTime":790.764,"endTime":793.429,"body":"this metric, or I want to get this result."},{"startTime":793.609,"endTime":798.879,"body":"And they say to generally the product"},{"startTime":793.609,"endTime":798.879,"body":"owner, they say, get me this thing."},{"startTime":798.884,"endTime":802.389,"body":"Mm-hmm  I don't really care how"},{"startTime":798.884,"endTime":802.389,"body":"you go about doing that thing, but"},{"startTime":802.389,"endTime":804.399,"body":"I want to increase this number."},{"startTime":804.399,"endTime":807.999,"body":"I want to decrease that number,"},{"startTime":804.399,"endTime":807.999,"body":"or I want to get this result."},{"startTime":808.179,"endTime":809.019,"body":"Here's the result."},{"startTime":809.019,"endTime":811.029,"body":"I want go figure out how to do that."},{"startTime":811.359,"endTime":814.659,"body":"And the very best product"},{"startTime":811.359,"endTime":814.659,"body":"owners take that to the team."},{"startTime":815.634,"endTime":818.814,"body":"And they say I've been"},{"startTime":815.634,"endTime":818.814,"body":"tasked with doing X."},{"startTime":819.474,"endTime":823.764,"body":"I have an idea to this or that or"},{"startTime":819.474,"endTime":823.764,"body":"this I think we can do it this way."},{"startTime":823.974,"endTime":828.204,"body":"What do you guys think you're in the"},{"startTime":823.974,"endTime":828.204,"body":"middle of this system all day long?"},{"startTime":828.294,"endTime":830.514,"body":"What better ideas do you guys maybe have?"},{"startTime":831.194,"endTime":832.664,"body":"Hit the nail on the head right there."},{"startTime":833.114,"endTime":836.804,"body":"Like I'm very wise the,"},{"startTime":833.114,"endTime":836.804,"body":"the best product owners."},{"startTime":836.804,"endTime":838.694,"body":"But so you is what you're saying."},{"startTime":838.694,"endTime":841.064,"body":"The team doesn't always deal"},{"startTime":838.694,"endTime":841.064,"body":"with the best product owners."},{"startTime":841.064,"endTime":845.894,"body":"Sometimes the team is the one questioning"},{"startTime":841.064,"endTime":845.894,"body":"and the product owner is the one afraid"},{"startTime":845.894,"endTime":847.454,"body":"to question I've been on plenty teams."},{"startTime":847.454,"endTime":847.814,"body":"Oh, sure."},{"startTime":848.174,"endTime":851.864,"body":"That way where, where the, where"},{"startTime":848.174,"endTime":851.864,"body":"the team is saying like, well, the"},{"startTime":851.864,"endTime":856.464,"body":"management is saying, we need to , add"},{"startTime":851.864,"endTime":856.464,"body":"a checkbox or something like that."},{"startTime":856.469,"endTime":861.334,"body":"Mm-hmm  but, based on what we know about"},{"startTime":856.469,"endTime":861.334,"body":"the user, like the user is with us, every"},{"startTime":862.044,"endTime":866.444,"body":"sprint review, for example, The users"},{"startTime":862.044,"endTime":866.444,"body":"never said they wanted a new checkbox."},{"startTime":866.444,"endTime":871.424,"body":"Like what the user we think"},{"startTime":866.444,"endTime":871.424,"body":"is wanting to do is whatever I"},{"startTime":871.424,"endTime":872.654,"body":"mean, whatever they think it is."},{"startTime":873.044,"endTime":877.364,"body":"So basically you're challenging against"},{"startTime":873.044,"endTime":877.364,"body":"what I'm saying, management in these"},{"startTime":877.364,"endTime":878.684,"body":"examples that kind of shortcut us."},{"startTime":879.134,"endTime":881.504,"body":"It could be, it could be"},{"startTime":879.134,"endTime":881.504,"body":"sales, it could be support."},{"startTime":881.504,"endTime":883.394,"body":"It could be a lot of other"},{"startTime":881.504,"endTime":883.394,"body":"departments in the company."},{"startTime":883.724,"endTime":887.424,"body":"The scrum model, like the, the,"},{"startTime":883.724,"endTime":887.424,"body":"the scripture or whatever will say"},{"startTime":887.424,"endTime":892.974,"body":"oh, we'll go to your product owner"},{"startTime":887.424,"endTime":892.974,"body":"slash manager, and they'll do some"},{"startTime":893.014,"endTime":894.784,"body":"experimentation based, whatever."},{"startTime":895.284,"endTime":898.744,"body":"Like the reality is sometimes they"},{"startTime":895.284,"endTime":898.744,"body":"don't want to get in front of that."},{"startTime":898.744,"endTime":899.254,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":899.254,"endTime":902.584,"body":"You know, kind of, kind of this"},{"startTime":899.254,"endTime":902.584,"body":"other category that we were not gonna"},{"startTime":902.589,"endTime":905.464,"body":"talk about is like, sometimes they,"},{"startTime":902.589,"endTime":905.464,"body":"they don't want to be perceived as"},{"startTime":905.464,"endTime":907.324,"body":"a person starting fights management."},{"startTime":907.324,"endTime":908.674,"body":"Management's a great example of this one."},{"startTime":908.974,"endTime":914.309,"body":"Just add a new option in the dropdown, add"},{"startTime":908.974,"endTime":914.309,"body":"a new checkbox, add a new, whatever add"},{"startTime":914.309,"endTime":916.469,"body":"a new option to select in the mobile app."},{"startTime":916.859,"endTime":918.749,"body":"It's like, oh, is that"},{"startTime":916.859,"endTime":918.749,"body":"what the customer wants?"},{"startTime":918.749,"endTime":921.629,"body":"Because I don't think that's"},{"startTime":918.749,"endTime":921.629,"body":"what they really need."},{"startTime":922.049,"endTime":925.229,"body":"I think what they really need is"},{"startTime":922.049,"endTime":925.229,"body":"this new flow in their workflow."},{"startTime":925.499,"endTime":926.639,"body":"That's what you're talking about."},{"startTime":927.089,"endTime":931.889,"body":"Why don't you let me the product"},{"startTime":927.089,"endTime":931.889,"body":"person experiment with that?"},{"startTime":931.889,"endTime":933.329,"body":"Let's do a little A/B testing."},{"startTime":933.389,"endTime":933.569,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":933.569,"endTime":935.519,"body":"You know, let, let's add a new option."},{"startTime":935.524,"endTime":937.969,"body":"And  we think about social media,"},{"startTime":935.524,"endTime":937.969,"body":"for example, let's add a new option."},{"startTime":937.974,"endTime":942.229,"body":"And then every time someone clicks on"},{"startTime":937.974,"endTime":942.229,"body":"that, it gets recorded on a database."},{"startTime":942.499,"endTime":946.219,"body":"They get a popup message that says,"},{"startTime":942.499,"endTime":946.219,"body":"Hey, Hey, Hey, this is a new function."},{"startTime":946.369,"endTime":947.449,"body":"It's not available yet."},{"startTime":947.509,"endTime":948.319,"body":"We're working on it."},{"startTime":948.559,"endTime":951.349,"body":"Even though we have no"},{"startTime":948.559,"endTime":951.349,"body":"intention of working."},{"startTime":951.904,"endTime":952.984,"body":"But that's what it says in the app."},{"startTime":952.984,"endTime":953.374,"body":"Of course."},{"startTime":953.794,"endTime":957.304,"body":"And then we'll just record, like how"},{"startTime":953.794,"endTime":957.304,"body":"many times do people click the ability"},{"startTime":957.304,"endTime":959.324,"body":"to see more information about whatever."},{"startTime":959.684,"endTime":964.874,"body":"And you're willing to put yourself"},{"startTime":959.684,"endTime":964.874,"body":"out on a limb to be like, okay,"},{"startTime":964.964,"endTime":967.064,"body":"no users clicked my new box."},{"startTime":967.094,"endTime":969.704,"body":"I guess we'll abandon that"},{"startTime":967.094,"endTime":969.704,"body":"and not go down that road."},{"startTime":969.974,"endTime":970.304,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":970.304,"endTime":970.394,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":970.394,"endTime":974.114,"body":"But the feedback thing is"},{"startTime":970.394,"endTime":974.114,"body":"like, are you being perceived"},{"startTime":974.174,"endTime":977.854,"body":"as going against management?"},{"startTime":978.124,"endTime":981.214,"body":"When you're asking to be like, Hey,"},{"startTime":978.124,"endTime":981.214,"body":"let me just put this option out"},{"startTime":981.214,"endTime":983.374,"body":"there just to see what yours do."},{"startTime":983.794,"endTime":984.244,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":984.574,"endTime":990.964,"body":"Cause cuz I've been in some organizations"},{"startTime":984.574,"endTime":990.964,"body":"where that is not like it's not like E"},{"startTime":990.964,"endTime":992.824,"body":"listen, your feedback is not desired."},{"startTime":993.154,"endTime":994.324,"body":"That's where I'm going with this."},{"startTime":994.824,"endTime":1000.854,"body":"Well, there are too many, I think product"},{"startTime":994.824,"endTime":1000.854,"body":"owners, people who, when it, that the."},{"startTime":1001.354,"endTime":1002.674,"body":"Dictum comes down."},{"startTime":1002.704,"endTime":1004.324,"body":"Hey, put in a new check box."},{"startTime":1004.354,"endTime":1004.414,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1004.414,"endTime":1007.294,"body":"Or put in a new line"},{"startTime":1004.414,"endTime":1007.294,"body":"item or whatever it is."},{"startTime":1007.714,"endTime":1012.804,"body":"They don't say why, what is if they"},{"startTime":1007.714,"endTime":1012.804,"body":"don't understand the why behind."},{"startTime":1012.804,"endTime":1012.894,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1013.104,"endTime":1016.394,"body":"You know, if the reason is, well, we"},{"startTime":1013.104,"endTime":1016.394,"body":"need more signups on this thing or we,"},{"startTime":1016.814,"endTime":1021.704,"body":"we need less things going over here,"},{"startTime":1016.814,"endTime":1021.704,"body":"whatever it is, they probably have a"},{"startTime":1021.704,"endTime":1028.004,"body":"better idea of how to get to that end"},{"startTime":1021.704,"endTime":1028.004,"body":"outcome than the person who told them"},{"startTime":1028.004,"endTime":1029.564,"body":"to do the thing in the first place."},{"startTime":1030.104,"endTime":1035.444,"body":"But if they don't have the feeling like"},{"startTime":1030.104,"endTime":1035.444,"body":"they can have that conversation and"},{"startTime":1035.449,"endTime":1038.414,"body":"say, why do you want to do that thing?"},{"startTime":1038.534,"endTime":1038.654,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1038.654,"endTime":1040.394,"body":"Then they're probably just gonna do it."},{"startTime":1040.894,"endTime":1041.134,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1041.134,"endTime":1041.974,"body":"I agree with that."},{"startTime":1042.324,"endTime":1044.944,"body":"I think in that, in those"},{"startTime":1042.324,"endTime":1044.944,"body":"kinds of scenarios, you have"},{"startTime":1044.944,"endTime":1047.284,"body":"the, the product people."},{"startTime":1047.644,"endTime":1052.894,"body":"Not only saying sometimes, not even"},{"startTime":1047.644,"endTime":1052.894,"body":"saying what they want and why, but simply"},{"startTime":1052.894,"endTime":1055.264,"body":"saying how, say I want a check box."},{"startTime":1056.044,"endTime":1057.184,"body":"just say what you want."},{"startTime":1057.184,"endTime":1057.274,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1057.304,"endTime":1061.444,"body":"Just say I want the, the ability"},{"startTime":1057.304,"endTime":1061.444,"body":"to select one or multiple options."},{"startTime":1061.504,"endTime":1061.624,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1061.654,"endTime":1065.344,"body":"And let the developers figure out"},{"startTime":1061.654,"endTime":1065.344,"body":"what is the best control to use"},{"startTime":1065.344,"endTime":1067.054,"body":"there mm-hmm  is it the checkbox?"},{"startTime":1067.114,"endTime":1069.154,"body":"Is it a series of radio buttons?"},{"startTime":1069.304,"endTime":1072.064,"body":"You know, whatever it is,"},{"startTime":1069.304,"endTime":1072.064,"body":"don't dictate to them."},{"startTime":1072.069,"endTime":1072.274,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1072.279,"endTime":1076.444,"body":"So take the work to them, but"},{"startTime":1072.279,"endTime":1076.444,"body":"also take them to the work."},{"startTime":1076.444,"endTime":1079.834,"body":"Rather don't take the work to them"},{"startTime":1076.444,"endTime":1079.834,"body":"by saying, do this, do this, do this."},{"startTime":1079.839,"endTime":1082.954,"body":"Just say we need this because that's it."},{"startTime":1083.044,"endTime":1086.874,"body":"Well, depending on how you ask that"},{"startTime":1083.044,"endTime":1086.874,"body":"question or depending on how the"},{"startTime":1087.374,"endTime":1093.304,"body":"dictate comes down, I could easily"},{"startTime":1087.374,"endTime":1093.304,"body":"see, Hey, I wanna measure XYZ."},{"startTime":1093.364,"endTime":1094.774,"body":"I wanna do this all the time."},{"startTime":1094.774,"endTime":1096.364,"body":"I'll say I want to instrument this."},{"startTime":1096.994,"endTime":1101.524,"body":"I leave it up to the team to come back"},{"startTime":1096.994,"endTime":1101.524,"body":"to me to say, Hey, we implemented this"},{"startTime":1101.614,"endTime":1103.324,"body":"and these are the stats we have for you."},{"startTime":1104.194,"endTime":1109.654,"body":"And this is the funny thing about me"},{"startTime":1104.194,"endTime":1109.654,"body":"is since I was a QA engineer in a past"},{"startTime":1109.654,"endTime":1113.579,"body":"life, I can be like, you guys, haven't"},{"startTime":1109.654,"endTime":1113.579,"body":"broken this down to you can't tell me"},{"startTime":1113.629,"endTime":1117.679,"body":"which individual, whatever is failing,"},{"startTime":1113.629,"endTime":1117.679,"body":"or which IP addresses sending back me."},{"startTime":1117.709,"endTime":1119.989,"body":"Like, you need to break"},{"startTime":1117.709,"endTime":1119.989,"body":"that down to this level."},{"startTime":1119.989,"endTime":1126.909,"body":"Cause I now am gonna ask and the way that"},{"startTime":1119.989,"endTime":1126.909,"body":"you've broken it out and done your first"},{"startTime":1126.909,"endTime":1129.909,"body":"past implementation, it's not deep enough."},{"startTime":1130.029,"endTime":1130.119,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1130.119,"endTime":1131.919,"body":"It's not deep enough"},{"startTime":1130.119,"endTime":1131.919,"body":"to get me what I want."},{"startTime":1132.279,"endTime":1132.759,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1132.849,"endTime":1133.149,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1133.199,"endTime":1136.489,"body":"We have I think about like, I think"},{"startTime":1133.199,"endTime":1136.489,"body":"about people being like, well, Brian,"},{"startTime":1136.489,"endTime":1139.579,"body":"well, you're being pedantic like,"},{"startTime":1136.489,"endTime":1139.579,"body":"oh, you're a product manager, but"},{"startTime":1139.579,"endTime":1140.749,"body":"you shouldn't really care about that."},{"startTime":1141.439,"endTime":1141.829,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":1141.829,"endTime":1143.959,"body":"Like, should I really not care about that?"},{"startTime":1143.964,"endTime":1145.069,"body":"Or should I partner with my."},{"startTime":1145.609,"endTime":1150.079,"body":"My, my technical peer on the other"},{"startTime":1145.609,"endTime":1150.079,"body":"side to be like I don't know,  if I"},{"startTime":1150.079,"endTime":1157.549,"body":"say I, my servers that serve my service"},{"startTime":1150.079,"endTime":1157.549,"body":"available through APIs in the busy"},{"startTime":1157.549,"endTime":1162.169,"body":"part of the day, I want to know is that"},{"startTime":1157.549,"endTime":1162.169,"body":"is that traffic equally distributed"},{"startTime":1162.289,"endTime":1168.449,"body":"between my farm that manages my APIs or"},{"startTime":1162.289,"endTime":1168.449,"body":"is  or is like one server shouldering"},{"startTime":1168.509,"endTime":1170.399,"body":"the burden of all of everything."},{"startTime":1170.399,"endTime":1174.609,"body":"And then when it gets overloaded, then"},{"startTime":1170.399,"endTime":1174.609,"body":"my time for my customers goes from"},{"startTime":1174.609,"endTime":1178.369,"body":"like 0.3 milliseconds up to like 50"},{"startTime":1174.609,"endTime":1178.369,"body":"milliseconds or something like that."},{"startTime":1178.374,"endTime":1179.779,"body":"I think he's gonna say the same thing."},{"startTime":1179.784,"endTime":1180.829,"body":"I'm gonna say, so go ahead."},{"startTime":1180.829,"endTime":1181.199,"body":"No, no, no."},{"startTime":1181.199,"endTime":1181.819,"body":"Please jump on it."},{"startTime":1181.879,"endTime":1186.019,"body":"No, I was gonna say what then make th"},{"startTime":1181.879,"endTime":1186.019,"body":"those things part of the requirements."},{"startTime":1186.229,"endTime":1186.649,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1186.829,"endTime":1191.349,"body":"So put in the response times that you need"},{"startTime":1186.829,"endTime":1191.349,"body":"put in the load balance and requirements"},{"startTime":1191.354,"endTime":1194.529,"body":"that you have, make it part of the"},{"startTime":1191.354,"endTime":1194.529,"body":"requirements and let the team figure"},{"startTime":1194.529,"endTime":1198.609,"body":"out how, for example, in that scenario,"},{"startTime":1194.529,"endTime":1198.609,"body":"well, what load balances they use?"},{"startTime":1198.609,"endTime":1199.749,"body":"Do they use F five?"},{"startTime":1199.749,"endTime":1201.279,"body":"How many, who cares?"},{"startTime":1201.284,"endTime":1201.969,"body":"That doesn't matter."},{"startTime":1201.999,"endTime":1202.269,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1202.269,"endTime":1202.839,"body":"I mean, exactly."},{"startTime":1202.929,"endTime":1207.699,"body":"It doesn't matter to me, but, but,"},{"startTime":1202.929,"endTime":1207.699,"body":"but the, when I write up those"},{"startTime":1207.699,"endTime":1211.839,"body":"type of requirements and I hand"},{"startTime":1207.699,"endTime":1211.839,"body":"it off to the team, the first time"},{"startTime":1211.839,"endTime":1214.389,"body":"they're implement, I'm talking the"},{"startTime":1211.839,"endTime":1214.389,"body":"first time they're implementing it."},{"startTime":1214.989,"endTime":1217.569,"body":"I don't know what the"},{"startTime":1214.989,"endTime":1217.569,"body":"responses are gonna be like."},{"startTime":1217.869,"endTime":1221.369,"body":"So I gotta look at what the response"},{"startTime":1217.869,"endTime":1221.369,"body":"is gonna be like before I write more."},{"startTime":1221.869,"endTime":1225.534,"body":"Stories on the matter, so like"},{"startTime":1221.869,"endTime":1225.534,"body":"we're talking about building"},{"startTime":1225.534,"endTime":1227.874,"body":"the building the wrong thing."},{"startTime":1227.934,"endTime":1228.054,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1228.054,"endTime":1228.414,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1228.774,"endTime":1233.004,"body":"The idea between like what, what"},{"startTime":1228.774,"endTime":1233.004,"body":"building the right thing means for me"},{"startTime":1233.004,"endTime":1238.784,"body":"is we gotta put something out there,"},{"startTime":1233.004,"endTime":1238.784,"body":"measure it, take the feedback and adjust."},{"startTime":1238.994,"endTime":1241.214,"body":"this is a tough one for me, which"},{"startTime":1238.994,"endTime":1241.214,"body":"I, I wanted to bring this one up"},{"startTime":1241.214,"endTime":1242.774,"body":"on a podcast for, for a while."},{"startTime":1243.014,"endTime":1243.374,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1243.944,"endTime":1246.194,"body":"I wanted to bring this one up,"},{"startTime":1243.944,"endTime":1246.194,"body":"up, up on the podcast for a"},{"startTime":1246.194,"endTime":1248.584,"body":"while, which is refactoring."},{"startTime":1248.914,"endTime":1251.104,"body":"This is, is a good one on LinkedIn, too."},{"startTime":1251.109,"endTime":1256.084,"body":"Like refactoring refactoring, meaning"},{"startTime":1251.109,"endTime":1256.084,"body":"you're going back through code."},{"startTime":1256.084,"endTime":1259.834,"body":"That's already in production that"},{"startTime":1256.084,"endTime":1259.834,"body":"works and you're just making it better."},{"startTime":1260.014,"endTime":1260.284,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1260.584,"endTime":1263.344,"body":"The, the ideal outcome is it"},{"startTime":1260.584,"endTime":1263.344,"body":"usually doesn't see anything."},{"startTime":1263.344,"endTime":1263.734,"body":"You're just."},{"startTime":1264.604,"endTime":1266.734,"body":"Easier to maintain, right."},{"startTime":1266.764,"endTime":1270.154,"body":"Easier to upgrade, easier to read"},{"startTime":1266.764,"endTime":1270.154,"body":"for other people on your team."},{"startTime":1270.604,"endTime":1271.714,"body":"A product people."},{"startTime":1271.774,"endTime":1279.374,"body":"I see this topic as especially difficult"},{"startTime":1271.774,"endTime":1279.374,"body":"to, to work with what is the ROI, right."},{"startTime":1280.304,"endTime":1280.364,"body":"ROI."},{"startTime":1280.424,"endTime":1281.804,"body":"Like the business people here."},{"startTime":1281.954,"endTime":1286.724,"body":"Like, I, I I'm like, I'm purely"},{"startTime":1281.954,"endTime":1286.724,"body":"asking this as a rhetorical, right?"},{"startTime":1286.729,"endTime":1291.974,"body":"Cause like I, the QA engineer understand"},{"startTime":1286.729,"endTime":1291.974,"body":"the need to be like, Hey, quite honestly,"},{"startTime":1291.974,"endTime":1295.514,"body":"six months after I write code as a QA"},{"startTime":1291.974,"endTime":1295.514,"body":"engineer, I have no idea what it does."},{"startTime":1295.604,"endTime":1295.694,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1295.699,"endTime":1299.564,"body":"Six months after I have no idea at all,"},{"startTime":1295.699,"endTime":1299.564,"body":"but the next people should be able to"},{"startTime":1299.564,"endTime":1304.224,"body":"read it and maintain it, change it and"},{"startTime":1299.564,"endTime":1304.224,"body":"maintain their changes or whatever."},{"startTime":1304.474,"endTime":1309.249,"body":"What is the advice to product people"},{"startTime":1304.474,"endTime":1309.249,"body":"in that example of, of, of, we need to."},{"startTime":1309.749,"endTime":1312.929,"body":"anytime we're in that part of"},{"startTime":1309.749,"endTime":1312.929,"body":"the code, we need to delegate to"},{"startTime":1312.929,"endTime":1315.299,"body":"our people to maintain upgrade."},{"startTime":1315.369,"endTime":1316.689,"body":"Move along that part of the code."},{"startTime":1316.899,"endTime":1319.389,"body":"I think it's the"},{"startTime":1316.899,"endTime":1319.389,"body":"intangibility of these things."},{"startTime":1319.394,"endTime":1320.109,"body":"Did I say that word?"},{"startTime":1320.109,"endTime":1320.319,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1320.529,"endTime":1320.769,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1320.799,"endTime":1326.529,"body":"Anyway, so the product people aren't"},{"startTime":1320.799,"endTime":1326.529,"body":"really understanding that most"},{"startTime":1326.534,"endTime":1330.009,"body":"product people, unless they're from"},{"startTime":1326.534,"endTime":1330.009,"body":"a QA environment or a background"},{"startTime":1330.009,"endTime":1331.389,"body":"or some technical background,"},{"startTime":1331.739,"endTime":1334.679,"body":"why aren't you working"},{"startTime":1331.739,"endTime":1334.679,"body":"on things that matter?"},{"startTime":1334.799,"endTime":1335.369,"body":"Mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":1335.969,"endTime":1339.389,"body":"But what they don't realize is these"},{"startTime":1335.969,"endTime":1339.389,"body":"things matter, cuz you are actually"},{"startTime":1339.389,"endTime":1345.359,"body":"accumulating that tech net and"},{"startTime":1339.389,"endTime":1345.359,"body":"the savvy product owner would say,"},{"startTime":1345.859,"endTime":1347.479,"body":"let's have a dialogue about this."},{"startTime":1347.484,"endTime":1348.739,"body":"Do you need time?"},{"startTime":1349.039,"endTime":1351.469,"body":"Do you need bandwidth in the sprint?"},{"startTime":1351.559,"endTime":1351.649,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1351.649,"endTime":1353.629,"body":"To make things more robust, right."},{"startTime":1353.749,"endTime":1357.679,"body":"Improve the -ilities,  I call it"},{"startTime":1353.749,"endTime":1357.679,"body":"scalability and all of those things."},{"startTime":1357.679,"endTime":1357.919,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1357.919,"endTime":1363.019,"body":"If a product owner thinks that way"},{"startTime":1357.919,"endTime":1363.019,"body":"and doesn't load the sprint with"},{"startTime":1363.469,"endTime":1367.009,"body":"just what they think is needed, but"},{"startTime":1363.469,"endTime":1367.009,"body":"lets the team do some refactoring."},{"startTime":1367.399,"endTime":1367.489,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1367.494,"endTime":1372.139,"body":"This is where I like the idea"},{"startTime":1367.494,"endTime":1372.139,"body":"of the, the innovation sprint"},{"startTime":1372.319,"endTime":1373.929,"body":"mm-hmm  does it have to be a sprint?"},{"startTime":1373.959,"endTime":1374.409,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":1374.409,"endTime":1378.099,"body":"We can talk about that, but part"},{"startTime":1374.409,"endTime":1378.099,"body":"of every sprint, I mean, yeah."},{"startTime":1378.099,"endTime":1379.779,"body":"So for me that is the thing."},{"startTime":1379.869,"endTime":1384.609,"body":"Leave some space in every sprint"},{"startTime":1379.869,"endTime":1384.609,"body":"to go back and fix things up."},{"startTime":1384.699,"endTime":1386.199,"body":"Well, Polish things, right?"},{"startTime":1386.199,"endTime":1390.974,"body":"The business to my"},{"startTime":1386.199,"endTime":1390.974,"body":"experience tends to not like."},{"startTime":1391.559,"endTime":1394.499,"body":"The thing that isn't shiny and"},{"startTime":1391.559,"endTime":1394.499,"body":"new, they want, they always"},{"startTime":1394.499,"endTime":1396.719,"body":"want the sexy, shiny new thing."},{"startTime":1397.319,"endTime":1404.219,"body":"It's incumbent on either the tech person"},{"startTime":1397.319,"endTime":1404.219,"body":"or whoever it is who sees the value in"},{"startTime":1404.219,"endTime":1409.139,"body":"it to be able to express maybe through"},{"startTime":1404.219,"endTime":1409.139,"body":"the scrum master, maybe themselves,"},{"startTime":1409.409,"endTime":1412.889,"body":"but to be able to express what that"},{"startTime":1409.409,"endTime":1412.889,"body":"value's gonna be to be able to say,"},{"startTime":1412.889,"endTime":1419.669,"body":"Hey, that thing that we built last"},{"startTime":1412.889,"endTime":1419.669,"body":"sprint that took us five days to do."},{"startTime":1419.849,"endTime":1423.569,"body":"If we refactor that it's gonna"},{"startTime":1419.849,"endTime":1423.569,"body":"take us a day and a half next time."},{"startTime":1423.599,"endTime":1423.779,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1424.079,"endTime":1427.859,"body":"You know, or in the future, if we don't"},{"startTime":1424.079,"endTime":1427.859,"body":"refactor it, it's gonna take us a month."},{"startTime":1428.639,"endTime":1432.239,"body":"To explain what the value is"},{"startTime":1428.639,"endTime":1432.239,"body":"that they're gonna get, because"},{"startTime":1432.239,"endTime":1438.839,"body":"just saying it's cleaner code and"},{"startTime":1432.239,"endTime":1438.839,"body":"it's prettier and more elegant."},{"startTime":1439.794,"endTime":1441.854,"body":"Is not helpful to a product owner."},{"startTime":1441.854,"endTime":1443.474,"body":"Cause they're gonna"},{"startTime":1441.854,"endTime":1443.474,"body":"just say, is it faster?"},{"startTime":1443.504,"endTime":1444.254,"body":"Not really."},{"startTime":1444.524,"endTime":1447.604,"body":"Is it oh, it's just more"},{"startTime":1444.524,"endTime":1447.604,"body":"elegant and I like it better."},{"startTime":1447.634,"endTime":1448.954,"body":"No, it's not helpful."},{"startTime":1449.004,"endTime":1454.054,"body":"We did a whole podcast on, the"},{"startTime":1449.004,"endTime":1454.054,"body":"benefits of a non non-technical"},{"startTime":1454.054,"endTime":1457.594,"body":"background, product owner slash manager."},{"startTime":1457.624,"endTime":1457.924,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1458.344,"endTime":1464.319,"body":"I, I feel the, the technical focused"},{"startTime":1458.344,"endTime":1464.319,"body":"product owner slash manager, I hate to"},{"startTime":1464.319,"endTime":1466.239,"body":"say given, can I just say product manager?"},{"startTime":1466.269,"endTime":1466.359,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1466.359,"endTime":1469.309,"body":"Product manager the product"},{"startTime":1466.359,"endTime":1469.309,"body":"manager, who has a deep"},{"startTime":1469.309,"endTime":1472.639,"body":"understanding of technical matters."},{"startTime":1472.669,"endTime":1475.399,"body":"I don't, I feel I'm not,"},{"startTime":1472.669,"endTime":1475.399,"body":"I'm not helping here."},{"startTime":1475.699,"endTime":1478.359,"body":"I feel they can more easily lobby."},{"startTime":1479.139,"endTime":1480.189,"body":"For what we're talking about here."},{"startTime":1480.539,"endTime":1483.089,"body":"I'm kind of talking about this, but"},{"startTime":1480.539,"endTime":1483.089,"body":"I'm also convincing about, as I'm"},{"startTime":1483.089,"endTime":1485.579,"body":"talking about it, I'm convincing myself"},{"startTime":1483.089,"endTime":1485.579,"body":"with the other of the other side."},{"startTime":1486.119,"endTime":1489.209,"body":"If you have a product manager who doesn't"},{"startTime":1486.119,"endTime":1489.209,"body":"know anything about the tech, like they"},{"startTime":1489.209,"endTime":1493.339,"body":"just can't, they zone out  when you start"},{"startTime":1489.209,"endTime":1493.339,"body":"talking about like, oh, we gotta refactor"},{"startTime":1493.344,"endTime":1496.899,"body":"this method and this function doesn't"},{"startTime":1493.344,"endTime":1496.899,"body":"work for whatever, or we gotta make this"},{"startTime":1496.899,"endTime":1500.314,"body":"more object oriented, or we gotta sub"},{"startTime":1496.899,"endTime":1500.314,"body":"out whatever technology for whatever."},{"startTime":1500.764,"endTime":1502.324,"body":"And they're like, I don't understand."},{"startTime":1502.324,"endTime":1505.624,"body":"I don't, I don't really want to"},{"startTime":1502.324,"endTime":1505.624,"body":"be involved in this conversation."},{"startTime":1505.784,"endTime":1509.379,"body":"I feel the reasons for making"},{"startTime":1505.784,"endTime":1509.379,"body":"things more maintainable."},{"startTime":1509.879,"endTime":1513.449,"body":"because the idea of more maintainable"},{"startTime":1509.879,"endTime":1513.449,"body":"is in the future, they will be much"},{"startTime":1513.479,"endTime":1518.429,"body":"faster to change and add things soon"},{"startTime":1513.479,"endTime":1518.429,"body":"or refactor when I need to change them."},{"startTime":1518.819,"endTime":1523.229,"body":"So I I'll be more open to saying"},{"startTime":1518.819,"endTime":1523.229,"body":"like, yes, the end result."},{"startTime":1523.949,"endTime":1528.179,"body":"When we take on this story, a refactor"},{"startTime":1523.949,"endTime":1528.179,"body":"story, basically the end result will be"},{"startTime":1528.279,"endTime":1534.579,"body":"the user sees no difference, but I know"},{"startTime":1528.279,"endTime":1534.579,"body":"that in the future, I can sell this up to"},{"startTime":1534.579,"endTime":1540.849,"body":"the business because I understand in the"},{"startTime":1534.579,"endTime":1540.849,"body":"future, when I ask for a change, it'll"},{"startTime":1540.849,"endTime":1546.589,"body":"take a half a day, as opposed to now we"},{"startTime":1540.849,"endTime":1546.589,"body":"gotta inherit 3, 4, 6 days, whatever."},{"startTime":1546.649,"endTime":1549.209,"body":"I mean, the days of changing things yep."},{"startTime":1549.269,"endTime":1550.589,"body":"That's one of the, -ilities, right?"},{"startTime":1551.219,"endTime":1554.189,"body":"Maintainability is one of the"},{"startTime":1551.219,"endTime":1554.189,"body":"-ilities, so  I agree with that."},{"startTime":1554.859,"endTime":1558.894,"body":"I think part of it is also incumbent"},{"startTime":1554.859,"endTime":1558.894,"body":"upon, the team or the, the, the"},{"startTime":1558.949,"endTime":1562.939,"body":"scrum master, et cetera, to position"},{"startTime":1558.949,"endTime":1562.939,"body":"it in a way that makes sense."},{"startTime":1563.209,"endTime":1565.009,"body":"So, so we have to make it better."},{"startTime":1565.069,"endTime":1566.959,"body":"Well, why didn't you build"},{"startTime":1565.069,"endTime":1566.959,"body":"it right the first time."},{"startTime":1567.259,"endTime":1567.469,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1567.499,"endTime":1567.949,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1568.189,"endTime":1571.159,"body":"So just say in the future,"},{"startTime":1568.189,"endTime":1571.159,"body":"I have literally heard that."},{"startTime":1571.159,"endTime":1571.399,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1571.459,"endTime":1571.729,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1571.729,"endTime":1578.659,"body":"So in the future, we are going to save X"},{"startTime":1571.729,"endTime":1578.659,"body":"number of hours, days, whatever it is, and"},{"startTime":1578.659,"endTime":1582.829,"body":"project, but you know, we're not looking"},{"startTime":1578.659,"endTime":1582.829,"body":"for accuracy, but project and say, so that"},{"startTime":1583.209,"endTime":1585.199,"body":"translates to a savings off X dollars."},{"startTime":1585.349,"endTime":1586.969,"body":"Now you now you're"},{"startTime":1585.349,"endTime":1586.969,"body":"speaking their language."},{"startTime":1586.969,"endTime":1587.989,"body":"They understand that"},{"startTime":1588.169,"endTime":1593.149,"body":"we talked a little bit offline"},{"startTime":1588.169,"endTime":1593.149,"body":"around product owners or people"},{"startTime":1593.149,"endTime":1595.879,"body":"who are okay being wrong."},{"startTime":1596.389,"endTime":1599.539,"body":"Mm-hmm  and not knowing or not"},{"startTime":1596.389,"endTime":1599.539,"body":"understanding it, having that."},{"startTime":1599.569,"endTime":1604.659,"body":"Oh, a couple of them are having, but"},{"startTime":1599.569,"endTime":1604.659,"body":"having, having that kind of sense"},{"startTime":1604.659,"endTime":1612.579,"body":"that I don't know everything is to me"},{"startTime":1604.659,"endTime":1612.579,"body":"a, such a huge win in specifically a"},{"startTime":1612.579,"endTime":1616.749,"body":"product owner, because I've just seen"},{"startTime":1612.579,"endTime":1616.749,"body":"so many of them, the best product owners"},{"startTime":1616.749,"endTime":1619.029,"body":"I've ever had have been able to say."},{"startTime":1619.734,"endTime":1624.354,"body":"You know, like those old timey pirate"},{"startTime":1619.734,"endTime":1624.354,"body":"maps, where you say, I am here."},{"startTime":1624.564,"endTime":1625.914,"body":"I want to be here."},{"startTime":1625.944,"endTime":1627.444,"body":"Here there be dragons."},{"startTime":1627.444,"endTime":1627.504,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1627.564,"endTime":1629.004,"body":"Like, I don't know, what's in the middle."},{"startTime":1629.004,"endTime":1630.234,"body":"I don't know how you're"},{"startTime":1629.004,"endTime":1630.234,"body":"gonna get me there."},{"startTime":1630.234,"endTime":1634.554,"body":"I don't care what technologies you"},{"startTime":1630.234,"endTime":1634.554,"body":"use to get me to here, but I know"},{"startTime":1634.604,"endTime":1635.894,"body":"where I want to be at the end."},{"startTime":1636.164,"endTime":1643.114,"body":"Now I have seen very technical POS that,"},{"startTime":1636.164,"endTime":1643.114,"body":"and they are very able, like you said, to"},{"startTime":1643.114,"endTime":1647.344,"body":"be able to advocate for certain things and"},{"startTime":1643.114,"endTime":1647.344,"body":"be able to understand why you need to do"},{"startTime":1647.344,"endTime":1651.094,"body":"certain things, the challenge that I've"},{"startTime":1647.344,"endTime":1651.094,"body":"had with some of them, and this might be"},{"startTime":1651.244,"endTime":1658.484,"body":"just a very singular thing, but is that"},{"startTime":1651.244,"endTime":1658.484,"body":"they can get very tied to a solution."},{"startTime":1658.624,"endTime":1659.544,"body":"I was gonna say in the weed."},{"startTime":1659.734,"endTime":1660.024,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1660.024,"endTime":1660.224,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1660.224,"endTime":1660.464,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1660.584,"endTime":1662.084,"body":"I, I, I, I expected."},{"startTime":1662.084,"endTime":1662.744,"body":"That's where we're going."},{"startTime":1662.794,"endTime":1664.804,"body":"Where my brain was going was not there."},{"startTime":1664.804,"endTime":1668.224,"body":"I anchored that because I am that"},{"startTime":1664.804,"endTime":1668.224,"body":"that's, that's the difficulty for me."},{"startTime":1669.034,"endTime":1676.144,"body":"The more difficult, perspective for me to"},{"startTime":1669.034,"endTime":1676.144,"body":"envision is the PO who just doesn't know"},{"startTime":1676.144,"endTime":1678.574,"body":"mm-hmm  like, I, I, for real doesn't know."},{"startTime":1678.574,"endTime":1678.694,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1678.699,"endTime":1679.369,"body":"For real yeah."},{"startTime":1679.374,"endTime":1679.449,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1679.454,"endTime":1684.099,"body":"If you're talking about building an"},{"startTime":1679.454,"endTime":1684.099,"body":"AP, like I I've built APIs and tested"},{"startTime":1684.099,"endTime":1688.209,"body":"APIs, so I can tell you all about"},{"startTime":1684.099,"endTime":1688.209,"body":"what I want out of an API solution."},{"startTime":1688.509,"endTime":1695.259,"body":"But I can't even envision a world"},{"startTime":1688.509,"endTime":1695.259,"body":"from someone asking for an API when"},{"startTime":1695.259,"endTime":1699.729,"body":"they don't know anything about how,"},{"startTime":1695.259,"endTime":1699.729,"body":"how an API works, what it means when"},{"startTime":1699.729,"endTime":1703.154,"body":"you solution an API, when you don't"},{"startTime":1699.729,"endTime":1703.154,"body":"like, I, I couldn't even put myself"},{"startTime":1703.159,"endTime":1705.794,"body":"in those shoes cuz I'm so far removed."},{"startTime":1706.294,"endTime":1706.894,"body":"from that."},{"startTime":1706.924,"endTime":1711.844,"body":"So I have to think again, if the scrum,"},{"startTime":1706.924,"endTime":1711.844,"body":"like we, this goes back I don't know"},{"startTime":1711.844,"endTime":1716.194,"body":"where we're gonna draw the line on"},{"startTime":1711.844,"endTime":1716.194,"body":"where I, when I say this, but if the"},{"startTime":1716.194,"endTime":1720.934,"body":"scrum master is somehow in between"},{"startTime":1716.194,"endTime":1720.934,"body":"the world of this PO who knows the"},{"startTime":1720.934,"endTime":1725.704,"body":"business domain and knows nothing about"},{"startTime":1720.934,"endTime":1725.704,"body":"technology, and the team who's completely"},{"startTime":1725.754,"endTime":1727.794,"body":"uninformed about the business theory."},{"startTime":1727.854,"endTime":1732.354,"body":"In reality, as the team learns and works,"},{"startTime":1727.854,"endTime":1732.354,"body":"they will learn about the business."},{"startTime":1732.359,"endTime":1734.964,"body":"So like a new team, for example, sure."},{"startTime":1734.964,"endTime":1735.384,"body":"A new team."},{"startTime":1736.014,"endTime":1740.214,"body":"So somewhere between the product person"},{"startTime":1736.014,"endTime":1740.214,"body":"who knows nothing about development,"},{"startTime":1740.214,"endTime":1743.514,"body":"but knows all about the domain and"},{"startTime":1740.214,"endTime":1743.514,"body":"the development team who knows all"},{"startTime":1743.514,"endTime":1745.944,"body":"about technology implementation,"},{"startTime":1743.514,"endTime":1745.944,"body":"but nothing about the domain."},{"startTime":1746.454,"endTime":1750.684,"body":"Somewhere in between them is the"},{"startTime":1746.454,"endTime":1750.684,"body":"scrum master facilitation skills."},{"startTime":1750.684,"endTime":1753.294,"body":"Notice, I didn't say the"},{"startTime":1750.684,"endTime":1753.294,"body":"scrum masters, right?"},{"startTime":1753.294,"endTime":1755.454,"body":"Technical knowledge or domain"},{"startTime":1753.294,"endTime":1755.454,"body":"knowledge or nothing like right."},{"startTime":1755.484,"endTime":1760.574,"body":"The scrum master's facilitation skills to"},{"startTime":1755.484,"endTime":1760.574,"body":"figure out how to get everyone talking in"},{"startTime":1760.574,"endTime":1763.004,"body":"a manner that kind of moves it forward."},{"startTime":1763.704,"endTime":1766.404,"body":"I'm trying to unpack and take a side here."},{"startTime":1766.644,"endTime":1767.874,"body":"I was trying, I was trying what's."},{"startTime":1768.519,"endTime":1772.929,"body":"What you had talked about earlier,"},{"startTime":1768.519,"endTime":1772.929,"body":"Om,  the five whys or seven whys or"},{"startTime":1772.939,"endTime":1777.349,"body":", however many whys you want to use is"},{"startTime":1772.939,"endTime":1777.349,"body":"kind of what I think part of what we're"},{"startTime":1777.349,"endTime":1782.469,"body":"talking about, because you had said,"},{"startTime":1777.349,"endTime":1782.469,"body":"well, if I need an API for a thing,"},{"startTime":1782.829,"endTime":1787.659,"body":"well, my first question, if you say"},{"startTime":1782.829,"endTime":1787.659,"body":"that is like, why do you need an API?"},{"startTime":1787.659,"endTime":1787.839,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1788.339,"endTime":1792.659,"body":"Nobody, no end user needs an API."},{"startTime":1792.709,"endTime":1797.599,"body":"They need information or they need"},{"startTime":1792.709,"endTime":1797.599,"body":"to be able to contact that server,"},{"startTime":1797.604,"endTime":1800.749,"body":"or they need to do what they don't"},{"startTime":1797.604,"endTime":1800.749,"body":"ever need to contact that server."},{"startTime":1800.749,"endTime":1802.729,"body":"They need a product or"},{"startTime":1800.749,"endTime":1802.729,"body":"they need something."},{"startTime":1802.939,"endTime":1809.444,"body":"So the idea that you need an API"},{"startTime":1802.939,"endTime":1809.444,"body":"you've jumped eight steps yeah."},{"startTime":1809.504,"endTime":1813.584,"body":"Past the actual need"},{"startTime":1809.504,"endTime":1813.584,"body":"that the customer has."},{"startTime":1813.734,"endTime":1817.664,"body":"So that would be where I'd"},{"startTime":1813.734,"endTime":1817.664,"body":"start is why do you need an API?"},{"startTime":1817.664,"endTime":1817.904,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1817.904,"endTime":1817.994,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1818.044,"endTime":1818.364,"body":"Because."},{"startTime":1818.939,"endTime":1822.239,"body":"I'm gonna say 99 plus percent of the time."},{"startTime":1822.239,"endTime":1822.869,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":1823.049,"endTime":1823.199,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1823.829,"endTime":1826.589,"body":"But maybe the team"},{"startTime":1823.829,"endTime":1826.589,"body":"goes, oh, you know what?"},{"startTime":1826.799,"endTime":1828.239,"body":"We actually don't need that."},{"startTime":1828.629,"endTime":1828.869,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1828.899,"endTime":1831.809,"body":"We need, we, we have a"},{"startTime":1828.899,"endTime":1831.809,"body":"better way of doing that."},{"startTime":1831.989,"endTime":1834.554,"body":"Mm-hmm  so that's where I'd start."},{"startTime":1834.934,"endTime":1835.154,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":1835.654,"endTime":1837.024,"body":"And that danger is real."},{"startTime":1837.024,"endTime":1840.804,"body":"When you have a PO who is technical"},{"startTime":1837.024,"endTime":1840.804,"body":"or has a technical background, right?"},{"startTime":1840.804,"endTime":1840.864,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1841.194,"endTime":1844.224,"body":"They, they almost bring the why mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1845.064,"endTime":1847.584,"body":"And the what with also the,"},{"startTime":1845.064,"endTime":1847.584,"body":"how a little bit, right."},{"startTime":1847.584,"endTime":1851.594,"body":"I need an API that does this, but"},{"startTime":1847.584,"endTime":1851.594,"body":"they've already decided they need an API."},{"startTime":1852.354,"endTime":1853.164,"body":"They may be right."},{"startTime":1853.164,"endTime":1857.844,"body":"But leave the, the opportunity"},{"startTime":1853.164,"endTime":1857.844,"body":"for the team to ideate yeah."},{"startTime":1857.904,"endTime":1859.344,"body":"On the issue."},{"startTime":1859.404,"endTime":1859.704,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1859.704,"endTime":1862.104,"body":"And figure out what is"},{"startTime":1859.704,"endTime":1862.104,"body":"the best way to do this."},{"startTime":1862.109,"endTime":1865.944,"body":"And the challenge in having that"},{"startTime":1862.109,"endTime":1865.944,"body":"facilitation, that, that back and"},{"startTime":1865.944,"endTime":1870.164,"body":"forth is I know in my heart of"},{"startTime":1865.944,"endTime":1870.164,"body":"hearts, You're probably right."},{"startTime":1870.434,"endTime":1872.294,"body":"like, you're, you probably do need an API."},{"startTime":1872.294,"endTime":1873.194,"body":"You're gonna be right."},{"startTime":1873.194,"endTime":1877.894,"body":"More often than not, but the idea to get"},{"startTime":1873.194,"endTime":1877.894,"body":"the team in the middle of that, maybe"},{"startTime":1877.894,"endTime":1880.114,"body":"it's not exactly what you envisioned."},{"startTime":1880.114,"endTime":1881.464,"body":"Maybe it's slightly different."},{"startTime":1881.469,"endTime":1886.054,"body":"Maybe it's a different a different"},{"startTime":1881.469,"endTime":1886.054,"body":"build of it in some way that you didn't"},{"startTime":1886.054,"endTime":1889.454,"body":"think of mm-hmm  and the fact that"},{"startTime":1886.054,"endTime":1889.454,"body":"you built it out a certain way in your"},{"startTime":1889.454,"endTime":1892.584,"body":"head might not be the best plan for it."},{"startTime":1892.584,"endTime":1892.674,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1892.674,"endTime":1897.414,"body":"And put, just putting the, the"},{"startTime":1892.674,"endTime":1897.414,"body":"process in front of them probably"},{"startTime":1897.414,"endTime":1898.914,"body":"is gonna get you better results."},{"startTime":1898.919,"endTime":1903.069,"body":"Mm-hmm  years and years ago, there was"},{"startTime":1898.919,"endTime":1903.069,"body":"a a guy by the name of Roger Vannoy."},{"startTime":1903.099,"endTime":1905.229,"body":"He wrote a book, small book."},{"startTime":1905.259,"endTime":1907.869,"body":"He was called a whack on the side"},{"startTime":1905.259,"endTime":1907.869,"body":"of the head and it was all about."},{"startTime":1908.324,"endTime":1912.434,"body":"You know, instilling creativity"},{"startTime":1908.324,"endTime":1912.434,"body":"and figuring out together,"},{"startTime":1912.764,"endTime":1914.954,"body":"holistically the solution."},{"startTime":1915.034,"endTime":1918.154,"body":"When you were speaking, my mind"},{"startTime":1915.034,"endTime":1918.154,"body":"went to this anecdote I heard about,"},{"startTime":1918.154,"endTime":1920.764,"body":"I don't even know if it's real or"},{"startTime":1918.154,"endTime":1920.764,"body":"not, but it kind of makes sense."},{"startTime":1920.814,"endTime":1925.269,"body":"When Einstein was working on stuff"},{"startTime":1920.814,"endTime":1925.269,"body":"like Theory of Relativity, whatever"},{"startTime":1925.319,"endTime":1929.439,"body":"he is working on, he would be locked"},{"startTime":1925.319,"endTime":1929.439,"body":"up in his room for hours and hours"},{"startTime":1929.439,"endTime":1931.559,"body":"and hours doing equations and stuff."},{"startTime":1931.979,"endTime":1936.599,"body":"So he had a cleaner who would come by and,"},{"startTime":1931.979,"endTime":1936.599,"body":"and clean stuff and look after the place."},{"startTime":1937.079,"endTime":1941.839,"body":"And he basically said, I'm getting"},{"startTime":1937.079,"endTime":1941.839,"body":"too much, too much interrupt here."},{"startTime":1941.979,"endTime":1943.679,"body":"So you let her go away for a few days."},{"startTime":1943.919,"endTime":1948.509,"body":"When she came back, she found two"},{"startTime":1943.919,"endTime":1948.509,"body":"holes in the door that he had made."},{"startTime":1949.009,"endTime":1952.639,"body":"I son had two cats, a little one,"},{"startTime":1949.009,"endTime":1952.639,"body":"and a big one, and he made two doors."},{"startTime":1952.849,"endTime":1953.359,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1953.629,"endTime":1954.229,"body":"And so she."},{"startTime":1954.729,"endTime":1955.809,"body":"Innocently pointed out."},{"startTime":1955.809,"endTime":1958.149,"body":"Well, just the big hole"},{"startTime":1955.809,"endTime":1958.149,"body":"would've been fine."},{"startTime":1958.629,"endTime":1960.819,"body":"And the guy's working on relativity."},{"startTime":1961.089,"endTime":1962.609,"body":"So I, I just thought of that anyway."},{"startTime":1962.609,"endTime":1967.159,"body":"Mm-hmm  so sometimes it's best to"},{"startTime":1962.609,"endTime":1967.159,"body":"let people just like ask them ask"},{"startTime":1967.159,"endTime":1968.539,"body":"them, why do we need two holes?"},{"startTime":1968.569,"endTime":1968.809,"body":"Why?"},{"startTime":1968.809,"endTime":1970.129,"body":"Well, I just need my cat out."},{"startTime":1970.189,"endTime":1971.599,"body":"How do you suggest I, I got two."},{"startTime":1971.604,"endTime":1973.249,"body":"Maybe just leave the door jar, right?"},{"startTime":1973.399,"endTime":1976.459,"body":"I mean, exactly door, but"},{"startTime":1973.399,"endTime":1976.459,"body":"that's, that's exactly it."},{"startTime":1976.459,"endTime":1980.059,"body":"You know, if you give it to"},{"startTime":1976.459,"endTime":1980.059,"body":"a product person, they might"},{"startTime":1980.059,"endTime":1981.619,"body":"immediately say, well, guess what?"},{"startTime":1981.619,"endTime":1982.309,"body":"We need two holes."},{"startTime":1982.309,"endTime":1983.209,"body":"We have two cats."},{"startTime":1983.869,"endTime":1984.169,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1984.174,"endTime":1986.439,"body":"They might, when in reality, anyway,"},{"startTime":1986.749,"endTime":1989.119,"body":"We're picking on product people,"},{"startTime":1986.749,"endTime":1989.119,"body":"but  the majority of the time it's"},{"startTime":1989.119,"endTime":1992.149,"body":"gonna be your leadership being"},{"startTime":1989.119,"endTime":1992.149,"body":"like, oh, we need two holes in the"},{"startTime":1992.149,"endTime":1995.029,"body":"doors and the product person's gonna"},{"startTime":1992.149,"endTime":1995.029,"body":"turn around and be like, yes, sir."},{"startTime":1995.029,"endTime":1995.839,"body":"We do."},{"startTime":1995.869,"endTime":1996.379,"body":"Yes, sir."},{"startTime":1996.379,"endTime":1996.709,"body":"We do."},{"startTime":1996.759,"endTime":1998.079,"body":"Well, that's why exactly you're right."},{"startTime":1998.139,"endTime":2002.369,"body":"That's why I said the best product owners"},{"startTime":1998.139,"endTime":2002.369,"body":"I've dealt with have done X, Y, and Z."},{"startTime":2002.909,"endTime":2006.469,"body":"You know, I've been lucky enough"},{"startTime":2002.909,"endTime":2006.469,"body":"to work with some great POS."},{"startTime":2006.969,"endTime":2008.049,"body":"They're not all that way."},{"startTime":2008.049,"endTime":2010.869,"body":"So some of them are exactly"},{"startTime":2008.049,"endTime":2010.869,"body":"what you said, where they just"},{"startTime":2011.049,"endTime":2012.669,"body":"you pivot and you say yes, sir."},{"startTime":2012.879,"endTime":2015.949,"body":"And you know listen, here's"},{"startTime":2012.879,"endTime":2015.949,"body":"what it is sometimes that, that"},{"startTime":2015.949,"endTime":2017.299,"body":"feedback is not appreciated."},{"startTime":2017.329,"endTime":2018.109,"body":"Mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":2018.109,"endTime":2018.769,"body":"It's not at all."},{"startTime":2018.769,"endTime":2020.359,"body":"Like, do you really need two holes?"},{"startTime":2020.359,"endTime":2022.639,"body":"Like, Ooh, I don't think"},{"startTime":2020.359,"endTime":2022.639,"body":"you fit the culture."},{"startTime":2022.639,"endTime":2022.819,"body":"Do you?"},{"startTime":2023.179,"endTime":2023.739,"body":"Why you why are you...?"},{"startTime":2023.809,"endTime":2025.039,"body":"Why should yeah."},{"startTime":2025.039,"endTime":2025.239,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2025.244,"endTime":2025.579,"body":"Goodness."},{"startTime":2025.579,"endTime":2026.359,"body":"Did you not hear that?"},{"startTime":2026.359,"endTime":2026.989,"body":"We had two cats."},{"startTime":2027.019,"endTime":2027.289,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2027.289,"endTime":2027.829,"body":"You didn't."},{"startTime":2027.889,"endTime":2029.689,"body":"I think you you're not,"},{"startTime":2027.889,"endTime":2029.689,"body":"you're being antagonistic."},{"startTime":2029.689,"endTime":2029.809,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2029.949,"endTime":2031.399,"body":"You're not a, you're not company, man."},{"startTime":2031.429,"endTime":2032.899,"body":"Two cats, two cats home."},{"startTime":2033.549,"endTime":2036.159,"body":"This is, this is the whole"},{"startTime":2033.549,"endTime":2036.159,"body":"start with why thing, right?"},{"startTime":2036.159,"endTime":2041.609,"body":"Like if you, if you are starting from a"},{"startTime":2036.159,"endTime":2041.609,"body":"position where you get to say whatever"},{"startTime":2041.609,"endTime":2043.109,"body":"change management system you use, right?"},{"startTime":2043.709,"endTime":2046.619,"body":"Our initiatives start"},{"startTime":2043.709,"endTime":2046.619,"body":"with a reason, right?"},{"startTime":2046.624,"endTime":2050.879,"body":"If the reason is I need like cast"},{"startTime":2046.624,"endTime":2050.879,"body":"need to go through a door, right."},{"startTime":2051.404,"endTime":2055.234,"body":"Animals need to pass through a door"},{"startTime":2051.404,"endTime":2055.234,"body":"and you're starting with why you"},{"startTime":2055.724,"endTime":2058.774,"body":"probably can try different things,"},{"startTime":2055.724,"endTime":2058.774,"body":"try different things, try different"},{"startTime":2058.774,"endTime":2059.914,"body":"doors, try different, whatever."},{"startTime":2060.094,"endTime":2060.304,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2060.309,"endTime":2066.494,"body":"And, your product people are probably not"},{"startTime":2060.309,"endTime":2066.494,"body":"incentivized from, well, like where we"},{"startTime":2066.494,"endTime":2070.604,"body":"go on all, all the negative incentives,"},{"startTime":2066.494,"endTime":2070.604,"body":"we go on the podcast of like that."},{"startTime":2070.609,"endTime":2070.754,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2071.264,"endTime":2071.384,"body":"You know?"},{"startTime":2071.384,"endTime":2075.934,"body":"Oh, you let down X, Y, Z executive,"},{"startTime":2071.384,"endTime":2075.934,"body":"cuz they told you to implement two"},{"startTime":2075.934,"endTime":2079.234,"body":"holes in the door, but you actually"},{"startTime":2075.934,"endTime":2079.234,"body":"just implemented one large hole."},{"startTime":2079.264,"endTime":2085.324,"body":"So XY Z executive is not happy with"},{"startTime":2079.264,"endTime":2085.324,"body":"you anymore, even though the stats of"},{"startTime":2085.324,"endTime":2089.094,"body":"the business and the stats of what the"},{"startTime":2085.324,"endTime":2089.094,"body":"customers want were completely fulfilled."},{"startTime":2089.334,"endTime":2091.254,"body":"So there's like some"},{"startTime":2089.334,"endTime":2091.254,"body":"political factor in it."},{"startTime":2091.254,"endTime":2094.074,"body":"If you're in a culture of being allowed."},{"startTime":2094.794,"endTime":2096.654,"body":"To build the right thing,"},{"startTime":2094.794,"endTime":2096.654,"body":"wrong thing, whatever."},{"startTime":2096.734,"endTime":2102.534,"body":"Even if you're building the wrong thing"},{"startTime":2096.734,"endTime":2102.534,"body":"and your metrics lead you to say, Hey, X"},{"startTime":2102.534,"endTime":2106.074,"body":"number of times you build the wrong thing,"},{"startTime":2102.534,"endTime":2106.074,"body":"it leads into building the right thing."},{"startTime":2106.944,"endTime":2112.544,"body":"So can we aggregate those stats"},{"startTime":2106.944,"endTime":2112.544,"body":"over all the teams to say our ratio"},{"startTime":2112.544,"endTime":2115.994,"body":"of building the right thing to the"},{"startTime":2112.544,"endTime":2115.994,"body":"wrong thing is like 1.3 or whatever,"},{"startTime":2116.384,"endTime":2117.794,"body":"whatever I'm, I'm making up numbers."},{"startTime":2117.794,"endTime":2117.944,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2117.944,"endTime":2118.334,"body":"Sure, sure."},{"startTime":2118.424,"endTime":2121.354,"body":"Like are, do we care about that?"},{"startTime":2122.134,"endTime":2123.634,"body":"Are we looking at it like that?"},{"startTime":2123.784,"endTime":2128.014,"body":"Or are we making some kind of"},{"startTime":2123.784,"endTime":2128.014,"body":"fallacy that's like, well, own"},{"startTime":2128.014,"endTime":2132.874,"body":"bills, the wrong thing, three times"},{"startTime":2128.014,"endTime":2132.874,"body":"out of whatever, and we're breaking"},{"startTime":2132.874,"endTime":2134.884,"body":"it down to the individual factor."},{"startTime":2134.944,"endTime":2135.154,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2135.394,"endTime":2135.814,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2135.874,"endTime":2137.914,"body":"Like what are we being measured on?"},{"startTime":2138.464,"endTime":2143.014,"body":"I'd be remiss to talk about this whole"},{"startTime":2138.464,"endTime":2143.014,"body":"category if I did not also bring up"},{"startTime":2143.064,"endTime":2151.574,"body":"sometimes a culture is not balanced"},{"startTime":2143.064,"endTime":2151.574,"body":"to allow you to fail mm-hmm  adjust"},{"startTime":2152.324,"endTime":2156.739,"body":"and show, show your show, your"},{"startTime":2152.324,"endTime":2156.739,"body":"work, show your homework, right."},{"startTime":2156.739,"endTime":2160.519,"body":"To be like, oh, oh, well, here's"},{"startTime":2156.739,"endTime":2160.519,"body":"the evidence I have to show our"},{"startTime":2160.549,"endTime":2163.439,"body":"directions towards the right thing"},{"startTime":2160.549,"endTime":2163.439,"body":"because I've been in organizations"},{"startTime":2163.439,"endTime":2165.649,"body":"where every time you build the right."},{"startTime":2166.149,"endTime":2168.759,"body":"it doesn't count on the wall."},{"startTime":2168.819,"endTime":2171.069,"body":"They don't make a check mark, but"},{"startTime":2168.819,"endTime":2171.069,"body":"every time you build the wrong"},{"startTime":2171.069,"endTime":2172.419,"body":"thing, they make a check mark."},{"startTime":2172.509,"endTime":2177.399,"body":"And then after whatever five check"},{"startTime":2172.509,"endTime":2177.399,"body":"marks or whatever, they recycle"},{"startTime":2177.399,"endTime":2181.899,"body":"leadership in the program, leadership"},{"startTime":2177.399,"endTime":2181.899,"body":"product, scrum, master, whatever,"},{"startTime":2182.019,"endTime":2185.949,"body":"they recycle the leadership in the"},{"startTime":2182.019,"endTime":2185.949,"body":"product and then they get new people"},{"startTime":2185.949,"endTime":2188.409,"body":"in and then they start and repeat."},{"startTime":2188.469,"endTime":2188.679,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2188.679,"endTime":2189.009,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2189.069,"endTime":2194.639,"body":"And then, it is just by happen sense or"},{"startTime":2189.069,"endTime":2194.639,"body":"coincidence that some people will come"},{"startTime":2194.639,"endTime":2197.819,"body":"in and happen to build the right thing."},{"startTime":2198.179,"endTime":2200.489,"body":"Again, going back to what we"},{"startTime":2198.179,"endTime":2200.489,"body":"just said is like, how do you"},{"startTime":2200.489,"endTime":2201.869,"body":"measure what the right thing is?"},{"startTime":2202.369,"endTime":2205.159,"body":"So it's just by having, since they'll"},{"startTime":2202.369,"endTime":2205.159,"body":"bring people in and they'll build"},{"startTime":2205.279,"endTime":2208.309,"body":"the right thing for enough time."},{"startTime":2208.314,"endTime":2212.329,"body":"So some people will be with the program"},{"startTime":2208.314,"endTime":2212.329,"body":"for three months, get washed out."},{"startTime":2212.479,"endTime":2214.939,"body":"Some people will be able to program"},{"startTime":2212.479,"endTime":2214.939,"body":"for six months, get washed out."},{"startTime":2214.969,"endTime":2216.859,"body":"Some people be there"},{"startTime":2214.969,"endTime":2216.859,"body":"for a year, 18 months."},{"startTime":2217.279,"endTime":2221.239,"body":"Before they get washed out and it"},{"startTime":2217.279,"endTime":2221.239,"body":"doesn't seem at a leadership level."},{"startTime":2221.739,"endTime":2224.229,"body":"Not that I'm talking, not that"},{"startTime":2221.739,"endTime":2224.229,"body":"anybody at a leadership level's"},{"startTime":2224.229,"endTime":2227.899,"body":"listening to the podcast, but like at"},{"startTime":2224.229,"endTime":2227.899,"body":"a leadership level, it'll seem that"},{"startTime":2227.899,"endTime":2232.969,"body":"it's like, oh, we just can't get the"},{"startTime":2227.899,"endTime":2232.969,"body":"right leadership on this program."},{"startTime":2233.569,"endTime":2235.309,"body":"And we just keep recycling people."},{"startTime":2235.519,"endTime":2239.749,"body":"But if we wash out enough people"},{"startTime":2235.519,"endTime":2239.749,"body":"we'll find the person that has"},{"startTime":2239.749,"endTime":2242.839,"body":"the right fit and been in a"},{"startTime":2239.749,"endTime":2242.839,"body":"bunch of organizations like that."},{"startTime":2242.839,"endTime":2243.139,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2243.139,"endTime":2244.429,"body":"Majority of 'em are like that."},{"startTime":2244.434,"endTime":2246.309,"body":"I would say are hazardous guess, right?"},{"startTime":2246.389,"endTime":2251.649,"body":"So this is that blame culture  it,"},{"startTime":2246.389,"endTime":2251.649,"body":"on the flip side, the few that"},{"startTime":2251.919,"endTime":2253.149,"body":"quote unquote, get it right."},{"startTime":2253.449,"endTime":2257.589,"body":"These people you'll find there's a,"},{"startTime":2253.449,"endTime":2257.589,"body":"there's like a common thread there, the"},{"startTime":2257.589,"endTime":2262.449,"body":"product people aren't coming in saying,"},{"startTime":2257.589,"endTime":2262.449,"body":"we should build this or not listening to"},{"startTime":2262.449,"endTime":2264.009,"body":"leadership saying we should build this."},{"startTime":2264.279,"endTime":2267.729,"body":"What they're doing is they're putting"},{"startTime":2264.279,"endTime":2267.729,"body":"the customer in the center and they're"},{"startTime":2267.729,"endTime":2269.904,"body":"saying, well,  what are your pain points?"},{"startTime":2270.024,"endTime":2272.634,"body":"And then, and then not going away"},{"startTime":2270.024,"endTime":2272.634,"body":"and building something they're going"},{"startTime":2272.634,"endTime":2276.114,"body":"away and creating a wire frame and"},{"startTime":2272.634,"endTime":2276.114,"body":"bringing back to the customer and go,"},{"startTime":2276.504,"endTime":2278.614,"body":"are we going on the right track here."},{"startTime":2278.704,"endTime":2279.064,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":2279.064,"endTime":2281.464,"body":"And then inspect and"},{"startTime":2279.064,"endTime":2281.464,"body":"adapt to use that phrase."},{"startTime":2281.469,"endTime":2286.174,"body":"But those people that keep the"},{"startTime":2281.469,"endTime":2286.174,"body":"customer in the center have a much"},{"startTime":2286.174,"endTime":2287.704,"body":"higher likelihood of success right."},{"startTime":2287.704,"endTime":2289.834,"body":"Than those that just simply"},{"startTime":2287.704,"endTime":2289.834,"body":"say, we know what they want."},{"startTime":2290.284,"endTime":2294.784,"body":"Well, that's, I mean, the idea"},{"startTime":2290.284,"endTime":2294.784,"body":"of they had so many failures"},{"startTime":2294.789,"endTime":2296.434,"body":"and they get these tick marks."},{"startTime":2296.934,"endTime":2298.944,"body":"How cheap were those failures?"},{"startTime":2299.094,"endTime":2303.999,"body":"Yeah, because that's, I think the big"},{"startTime":2299.094,"endTime":2303.999,"body":"point to your point, maybe you bring them"},{"startTime":2303.999,"endTime":2307.969,"body":"a a paper wire frame and you say, well,"},{"startTime":2303.999,"endTime":2307.969,"body":"if you click to this button, what would"},{"startTime":2307.969,"endTime":2309.589,"body":"you expect to find on the next page?"},{"startTime":2310.384,"endTime":2315.364,"body":"Well, if they say the opposite of what"},{"startTime":2310.384,"endTime":2315.364,"body":"you expected, that's a failure, but"},{"startTime":2315.369,"endTime":2318.094,"body":"it was super cheap and super fast."},{"startTime":2318.244,"endTime":2318.304,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2318.334,"endTime":2321.154,"body":"So that to me is that's a huge win."},{"startTime":2321.244,"endTime":2321.364,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2321.369,"endTime":2325.774,"body":"It's a failure in the sense that you"},{"startTime":2321.369,"endTime":2325.774,"body":"didn't get the results you expected."},{"startTime":2325.779,"endTime":2326.014,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2326.254,"endTime":2328.984,"body":"But it's a win because you"},{"startTime":2326.254,"endTime":2328.984,"body":"didn't spend a lot of money."},{"startTime":2329.044,"endTime":2329.104,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2329.134,"endTime":2332.344,"body":"You got information and you can move"},{"startTime":2329.134,"endTime":2332.344,"body":"forward with the information you got."},{"startTime":2332.374,"endTime":2335.854,"body":"It's a learning opportunity outside"},{"startTime":2332.374,"endTime":2335.854,"body":"rather than a failure at that point."},{"startTime":2335.974,"endTime":2336.244,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2336.424,"endTime":2339.334,"body":"Cause cuz you know, the further"},{"startTime":2336.424,"endTime":2339.334,"body":"up the chain, you look at that"},{"startTime":2339.334,"endTime":2340.744,"body":"and go, here's what we did."},{"startTime":2340.744,"endTime":2343.534,"body":"And it was a failure that's"},{"startTime":2340.744,"endTime":2343.534,"body":"frowned upon the F word."},{"startTime":2343.534,"endTime":2344.134,"body":"So sure."},{"startTime":2344.134,"endTime":2344.824,"body":"It's a learning opportu."},{"startTime":2344.829,"endTime":2345.574,"body":"Here's what we learned."},{"startTime":2345.784,"endTime":2347.014,"body":"And here's what we're doing differently."},{"startTime":2347.074,"endTime":2348.704,"body":"Mm-hmm  and then RINs and repeat that."},{"startTime":2349.004,"endTime":2349.244,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2349.244,"endTime":2352.154,"body":"I, I would guess most programs like"},{"startTime":2349.244,"endTime":2352.154,"body":"that, that they're not measured"},{"startTime":2352.454,"endTime":2353.774,"body":"like that they're not measured."},{"startTime":2353.774,"endTime":2356.684,"body":"Like they don't measure that kind"},{"startTime":2353.774,"endTime":2356.684,"body":"of incremental kind of stuff."},{"startTime":2356.784,"endTime":2360.094,"body":"Oh, first of all, they don't, they"},{"startTime":2356.784,"endTime":2360.094,"body":"don't instrument their program like"},{"startTime":2360.094,"endTime":2364.024,"body":"that, because if it let's say you"},{"startTime":2360.094,"endTime":2364.024,"body":"have a, let's say you have a large,"},{"startTime":2364.024,"endTime":2368.854,"body":"let's like the largest program that"},{"startTime":2364.024,"endTime":2368.854,"body":"I was part of was like a seven,"},{"startTime":2368.859,"endTime":2369.964,"body":"eight team, something like that."},{"startTime":2369.964,"endTime":2370.234,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2370.239,"endTime":2374.649,"body":"Which is a massive some people listen,"},{"startTime":2370.239,"endTime":2374.649,"body":"so be like, oh, I have 300 people."},{"startTime":2375.309,"endTime":2377.319,"body":"like, no, you don't that's right."},{"startTime":2377.319,"endTime":2379.119,"body":"You don't, you think you do every time."},{"startTime":2379.119,"endTime":2381.939,"body":"I'm like, no, you don't like"},{"startTime":2379.119,"endTime":2381.939,"body":"you, that is broken down."},{"startTime":2382.289,"endTime":2383.879,"body":"You don't, you trust me, you don't."},{"startTime":2384.359,"endTime":2390.439,"body":"Like the seven, eight teams was the large"},{"startTime":2384.359,"endTime":2390.439,"body":"program I had and their, their, their"},{"startTime":2390.439,"endTime":2394.299,"body":"instrumentation was never at that level."},{"startTime":2394.969,"endTime":2398.179,"body":"I always struggle to get their"},{"startTime":2394.969,"endTime":2398.179,"body":"instrumentation of like, Hey talk to the"},{"startTime":2398.184,"endTime":2404.029,"body":"customer find out what they want, find"},{"startTime":2398.184,"endTime":2404.029,"body":"out what you can do in two, three days"},{"startTime":2404.719,"endTime":2409.874,"body":"to prove or disprove your hypothesis and."},{"startTime":2410.374,"endTime":2411.004,"body":"get 'em on the phone."},{"startTime":2411.354,"endTime":2416.084,"body":"The difficult part for me was I was in"},{"startTime":2411.354,"endTime":2416.084,"body":"this like pseudo, I was trying to help"},{"startTime":2416.184,"endTime":2421.099,"body":"segment their teams at the rate level and,"},{"startTime":2416.184,"endTime":2421.099,"body":"make sure they had cross-functional team."},{"startTime":2421.104,"endTime":2424.129,"body":"I was doing a lot of agile coaching"},{"startTime":2421.104,"endTime":2424.129,"body":"stuff, but also at the same time, I was"},{"startTime":2424.129,"endTime":2428.909,"body":"trying to shoulder the burden of good"},{"startTime":2424.129,"endTime":2428.909,"body":"product practices at the same time."},{"startTime":2428.909,"endTime":2431.579,"body":"And it was super distracting cause"},{"startTime":2428.909,"endTime":2431.579,"body":"I'm like, because I'm like, oh,"},{"startTime":2431.639,"endTime":2434.464,"body":"like forget all the stuff that"},{"startTime":2431.639,"endTime":2434.464,"body":"like, Hey, you're a scrum master."},{"startTime":2434.464,"endTime":2437.189,"body":"Like forget all the good practices"},{"startTime":2434.464,"endTime":2437.189,"body":"and stuff about like being a scrum"},{"startTime":2437.189,"endTime":2438.359,"body":"master, like forget all that."},{"startTime":2438.689,"endTime":2441.329,"body":"Forget everything you learned in,"},{"startTime":2438.689,"endTime":2441.329,"body":"in your two day class or whatever."},{"startTime":2441.329,"endTime":2443.069,"body":"Like forget everything"},{"startTime":2441.329,"endTime":2443.069,"body":"you know about frameworks."},{"startTime":2443.099,"endTime":2444.959,"body":"Forget all that stop two and a half days."},{"startTime":2445.499,"endTime":2445.739,"body":"Sorry."},{"startTime":2445.739,"endTime":2446.999,"body":"It was very intense."},{"startTime":2447.049,"endTime":2450.259,"body":"Listen, we're not getting yelled"},{"startTime":2447.049,"endTime":2450.259,"body":"at, by CSTs on internet anymore."},{"startTime":2450.259,"endTime":2451.759,"body":"We, we decided not to do that anymore."},{"startTime":2451.819,"endTime":2451.879,"body":"No."},{"startTime":2452.089,"endTime":2452.834,"body":"And  yeah."},{"startTime":2452.884,"endTime":2459.804,"body":"Forget all that and like just focus on,"},{"startTime":2452.884,"endTime":2459.804,"body":"can you do something two or three days."},{"startTime":2460.164,"endTime":2462.924,"body":"And at the end of that, two or three"},{"startTime":2460.164,"endTime":2462.924,"body":"days, get the customer on the phone,"},{"startTime":2463.244,"endTime":2466.754,"body":"and after that two or three days, can"},{"startTime":2463.244,"endTime":2466.754,"body":"you show them something and get them"},{"startTime":2466.754,"endTime":2468.044,"body":"to tell you if they like it or not?"},{"startTime":2468.134,"endTime":2470.234,"body":"And if they don't like"},{"startTime":2468.134,"endTime":2470.234,"body":"it, like what else to do?"},{"startTime":2470.504,"endTime":2473.864,"body":"I was like, if you can break your"},{"startTime":2470.504,"endTime":2473.864,"body":"program down to that level for"},{"startTime":2473.864,"endTime":2476.954,"body":"every single team, like every"},{"startTime":2473.864,"endTime":2476.954,"body":"single team getting that feedback."},{"startTime":2476.954,"endTime":2477.284,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2478.004,"endTime":2479.204,"body":"I was like, you'll be way ahead."},{"startTime":2479.204,"endTime":2482.174,"body":"Mm-hmm,  proud of people, scrum"},{"startTime":2479.204,"endTime":2482.174,"body":"master team people, whatever,"},{"startTime":2482.414,"endTime":2485.264,"body":"you'd be way ahead of everything."},{"startTime":2485.714,"endTime":2485.984,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2485.989,"endTime":2486.824,"body":"You know, a hundred percent."},{"startTime":2486.944,"endTime":2487.124,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2487.204,"endTime":2491.554,"body":"If you can think about that feedback"},{"startTime":2487.204,"endTime":2491.554,"body":"cycle of two or three days before I"},{"startTime":2491.644,"endTime":2495.724,"body":"have a touch point with a customer"},{"startTime":2491.644,"endTime":2495.724,"body":"per team per, per product person."},{"startTime":2496.064,"endTime":2497.414,"body":"And if you can build your program that."},{"startTime":2498.244,"endTime":2500.374,"body":"You'll be instrumenting"},{"startTime":2498.244,"endTime":2500.374,"body":"your software correctly."},{"startTime":2500.644,"endTime":2503.074,"body":"You know, if you can do that"},{"startTime":2500.644,"endTime":2503.074,"body":"without having to talk to anyone,"},{"startTime":2503.074,"endTime":2506.554,"body":"you can see it through behavior"},{"startTime":2503.074,"endTime":2506.554,"body":"you're even doing even better."},{"startTime":2506.554,"endTime":2506.644,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2506.944,"endTime":2507.904,"body":"There's a measure."},{"startTime":2508.154,"endTime":2509.774,"body":"And it's not scientific by any means."},{"startTime":2509.774,"endTime":2510.044,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2510.044,"endTime":2514.664,"body":"It's it's fit for purpose fit for"},{"startTime":2510.044,"endTime":2514.664,"body":"need either of those, you'd certainly"},{"startTime":2514.664,"endTime":2516.644,"body":"be meeting those measures, right?"},{"startTime":2516.674,"endTime":2516.734,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2516.794,"endTime":2519.884,"body":"So some people will be very"},{"startTime":2516.794,"endTime":2519.884,"body":"pedantic what do you mean correctly?"},{"startTime":2519.884,"endTime":2521.054,"body":"It's only be four sprints."},{"startTime":2521.084,"endTime":2521.684,"body":"Well, okay."},{"startTime":2521.924,"endTime":2523.874,"body":"But you are meeting their need."},{"startTime":2523.874,"endTime":2525.014,"body":"It's fit for purpose."},{"startTime":2525.019,"endTime":2526.904,"body":"How do you know that the"},{"startTime":2525.019,"endTime":2526.904,"body":"customer's telling you that?"},{"startTime":2527.264,"endTime":2529.904,"body":"So those teams that say, well,"},{"startTime":2527.264,"endTime":2529.904,"body":"we we'll get the customer in."},{"startTime":2529.934,"endTime":2534.294,"body":"Maybe at the end of a sprint at the"},{"startTime":2529.934,"endTime":2534.294,"body":"sprint review, don't be ready to that."},{"startTime":2534.294,"endTime":2536.394,"body":"You don't have to wait"},{"startTime":2534.294,"endTime":2536.394,"body":"till the end of the sprint."},{"startTime":2536.724,"endTime":2539.184,"body":"As soon as you have something"},{"startTime":2536.724,"endTime":2539.184,"body":"that's reasonable that can stand up."},{"startTime":2539.184,"endTime":2539.484,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2539.664,"endTime":2542.124,"body":"Get 'em on the phone to your"},{"startTime":2539.664,"endTime":2542.124,"body":"point or just show it to 'em."},{"startTime":2542.124,"endTime":2542.544,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":2542.544,"endTime":2542.664,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2542.669,"endTime":2542.964,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2543.204,"endTime":2544.344,"body":"Get 'em in the room if you can."},{"startTime":2544.404,"endTime":2545.724,"body":"And that's ideal."},{"startTime":2545.754,"endTime":2551.124,"body":"I mean, Realistically, at least"},{"startTime":2545.754,"endTime":2551.124,"body":"in my experience getting them in"},{"startTime":2551.634,"endTime":2553.404,"body":"every sprint every couple of weeks."},{"startTime":2554.394,"endTime":2555.474,"body":"That's okay."},{"startTime":2555.534,"endTime":2558.744,"body":"Like, because most places"},{"startTime":2555.534,"endTime":2558.744,"body":"aren't bringing the users in,"},{"startTime":2558.804,"endTime":2560.394,"body":"even that often you're right."},{"startTime":2560.429,"endTime":2565.389,"body":"I would love to be in a situation and"},{"startTime":2560.429,"endTime":2565.389,"body":"I have where you're constantly touching"},{"startTime":2565.389,"endTime":2570.099,"body":"the, the customer every couple days,"},{"startTime":2565.389,"endTime":2570.099,"body":"every few days, but if it's every"},{"startTime":2570.104,"endTime":2572.709,"body":"two weeks and that's all you can do."},{"startTime":2573.099,"endTime":2573.939,"body":"Great."},{"startTime":2573.969,"endTime":2574.089,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2574.329,"endTime":2574.899,"body":"Do that."},{"startTime":2574.899,"endTime":2575.859,"body":"Start there."},{"startTime":2575.889,"endTime":2575.979,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2576.039,"endTime":2578.889,"body":"Just do it and get that feedback."},{"startTime":2578.949,"endTime":2583.359,"body":"Because worst case scenario, you built"},{"startTime":2578.949,"endTime":2583.359,"body":"something that they're not gonna use"},{"startTime":2583.359,"endTime":2587.029,"body":"or that maybe, is off base a little"},{"startTime":2583.359,"endTime":2587.029,"body":"bit and you spent two weeks on it."},{"startTime":2587.059,"endTime":2587.209,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2587.369,"endTime":2587.529,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2587.529,"endTime":2587.729,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2587.839,"endTime":2592.439,"body":"The for sure the, the worst case,"},{"startTime":2587.839,"endTime":2592.439,"body":"if you take longer is now you've"},{"startTime":2592.444,"endTime":2596.549,"body":"spent four weeks or now you've spent"},{"startTime":2592.444,"endTime":2596.549,"body":"six or eight or 12 weeks working"},{"startTime":2596.549,"endTime":2597.869,"body":"on a thing they're not gonna use."},{"startTime":2598.139,"endTime":2598.469,"body":"So."},{"startTime":2598.859,"endTime":2599.099,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2599.104,"endTime":2600.089,"body":"It's what's practical."},{"startTime":2600.089,"endTime":2600.329,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2600.329,"endTime":2600.539,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2600.544,"endTime":2602.999,"body":"A lot of teams don't even have"},{"startTime":2600.544,"endTime":2602.999,"body":"access to their customers."},{"startTime":2602.999,"endTime":2603.809,"body":"They don't know who they are."},{"startTime":2603.899,"endTime":2603.959,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2603.959,"endTime":2606.029,"body":"They're just being told, this"},{"startTime":2603.959,"endTime":2606.029,"body":"is what the customer needs."},{"startTime":2606.029,"endTime":2606.119,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2606.329,"endTime":2607.199,"body":"Believe it, right."},{"startTime":2607.199,"endTime":2607.469,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2607.559,"endTime":2607.829,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":2607.919,"endTime":2608.279,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2608.489,"endTime":2609.269,"body":"Sad, but true."},{"startTime":2609.799,"endTime":2613.744,"body":"this wasn't even part of our discussion"},{"startTime":2609.799,"endTime":2613.744,"body":"to have, but like, I hear like a lot"},{"startTime":2613.749,"endTime":2617.524,"body":"of times when I go to community events"},{"startTime":2613.749,"endTime":2617.524,"body":"and stuff like that, people will ask"},{"startTime":2617.644,"endTime":2620.554,"body":"people will ask, but also people will"},{"startTime":2617.644,"endTime":2620.554,"body":"assume that you're on two week sprints"},{"startTime":2620.794,"endTime":2623.754,"body":"and then they'll kinda like they"},{"startTime":2620.794,"endTime":2623.754,"body":"don't really look down, but they, they"},{"startTime":2623.754,"endTime":2626.704,"body":"kind of they're kind of shocked at"},{"startTime":2623.754,"endTime":2626.704,"body":"people that are on one week sprints."},{"startTime":2626.974,"endTime":2630.774,"body":"And I kind like as a product person, I"},{"startTime":2626.974,"endTime":2630.774,"body":"kind of think of like I would like to"},{"startTime":2631.444,"endTime":2635.884,"body":"go to one week we experience because if"},{"startTime":2631.444,"endTime":2635.884,"body":"you think about one week sprint, like"},{"startTime":2636.664,"endTime":2639.904,"body":"if you're using the, they eliminated"},{"startTime":2636.664,"endTime":2639.904,"body":"this from a scrum guide, so it's not"},{"startTime":2639.909,"endTime":2641.134,"body":"in there anymore, but if you're using."},{"startTime":2641.794,"endTime":2646.929,"body":"You know, two hours, whatever per week"},{"startTime":2641.794,"endTime":2646.929,"body":"for planning or whatever, where if you"},{"startTime":2646.929,"endTime":2649.899,"body":"have a, if you have a two week sprint,"},{"startTime":2646.929,"endTime":2649.899,"body":"you're in a room for like half a day to do"},{"startTime":2649.899,"endTime":2651.039,"body":"your sprint planning and stuff like that."},{"startTime":2651.369,"endTime":2654.879,"body":"If you think about it, you're like,"},{"startTime":2651.369,"endTime":2654.879,"body":"oh, if, if I'm doing one week sprints,"},{"startTime":2655.299,"endTime":2660.819,"body":"basically Monday morning when everyone"},{"startTime":2655.299,"endTime":2660.819,"body":"gets in the office air quotes, right?"},{"startTime":2660.829,"endTime":2663.679,"body":"We're gonna spend the first half"},{"startTime":2660.829,"endTime":2663.679,"body":"a day Monday talking about the"},{"startTime":2663.679,"endTime":2668.119,"body":"plan for the whole week to be"},{"startTime":2663.679,"endTime":2668.119,"body":"like, Hey, we want implement this."},{"startTime":2668.449,"endTime":2670.489,"body":"Like here are the things I want to"},{"startTime":2668.449,"endTime":2670.489,"body":"get down with the product owner."},{"startTime":2670.549,"endTime":2674.569,"body":"Here are the things that I'm trying"},{"startTime":2670.549,"endTime":2674.569,"body":"to target getting done this week."},{"startTime":2674.749,"endTime":2677.329,"body":"And then the team saying, okay,"},{"startTime":2674.749,"endTime":2677.329,"body":"well, in order to do that, we gotta"},{"startTime":2677.329,"endTime":2680.449,"body":"do XYZ, whatever, whatever we talk"},{"startTime":2677.329,"endTime":2680.449,"body":"about scope, we talk about what can"},{"startTime":2680.449,"endTime":2681.659,"body":"be done, what can't be done, the."},{"startTime":2682.354,"endTime":2683.224,"body":"Break it down."},{"startTime":2683.254,"endTime":2687.074,"body":"We come up with a plan for the week"},{"startTime":2683.254,"endTime":2687.074,"body":"and it seems to a lot of people"},{"startTime":2687.074,"endTime":2691.904,"body":"that push back on me for a week say,"},{"startTime":2687.074,"endTime":2691.904,"body":"oh, that's, that's a that's grind."},{"startTime":2692.054,"endTime":2694.634,"body":"It's a re it's a grindy week to week."},{"startTime":2695.044,"endTime":2695.374,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2695.874,"endTime":2696.174,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2696.204,"endTime":2696.864,"body":"That's what they're saying."},{"startTime":2696.864,"endTime":2699.054,"body":"Even scrum mass is supposed back"},{"startTime":2696.864,"endTime":2699.054,"body":"and they go, what do you mean?"},{"startTime":2699.114,"endTime":2701.634,"body":"I have to do a retro for every yes you do."},{"startTime":2701.874,"endTime":2704.214,"body":"But it's lightweight compared"},{"startTime":2701.874,"endTime":2704.214,"body":"to the two week one, right?"},{"startTime":2704.514,"endTime":2706.254,"body":"I've I've experienced one week sprint."},{"startTime":2706.254,"endTime":2709.164,"body":"I tell you if you have access,"},{"startTime":2706.254,"endTime":2709.164,"body":"this is the fundamental premise."},{"startTime":2709.164,"endTime":2713.124,"body":"If you have access to the customer to"},{"startTime":2709.164,"endTime":2713.124,"body":"get the feedback, you can't beat one"},{"startTime":2713.124,"endTime":2716.634,"body":"week sprint because you're delivering"},{"startTime":2713.124,"endTime":2716.634,"body":"small sliver as of functionality."},{"startTime":2716.934,"endTime":2719.694,"body":"And you're getting feedback as to"},{"startTime":2716.934,"endTime":2719.694,"body":"whether you're on the right track or not."},{"startTime":2719.694,"endTime":2721.434,"body":"Yeah, that is fantastic."},{"startTime":2722.124,"endTime":2725.094,"body":"But oftentimes for practical"},{"startTime":2722.124,"endTime":2725.094,"body":"reasons, that's not possible."},{"startTime":2725.094,"endTime":2726.324,"body":"The customer's not available."},{"startTime":2726.324,"endTime":2727.464,"body":"They don't have the time."},{"startTime":2727.464,"endTime":2727.734,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2727.914,"endTime":2729.414,"body":"You know, especially the right people."},{"startTime":2729.414,"endTime":2733.614,"body":"That can say, yes, I accept this or"},{"startTime":2729.414,"endTime":2733.614,"body":"no, you don't have access to them."},{"startTime":2733.614,"endTime":2737.754,"body":"So yeah, it can be two weeks, but two"},{"startTime":2733.614,"endTime":2737.754,"body":"consistently make sure they're in."},{"startTime":2738.474,"endTime":2741.504,"body":"Don't have a sprint and go through"},{"startTime":2738.474,"endTime":2741.504,"body":"the mechanical motions of doing a"},{"startTime":2741.504,"endTime":2743.184,"body":"demo and then walk away from it."},{"startTime":2743.184,"endTime":2743.364,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2743.544,"endTime":2746.784,"body":"You gotta get that feedback and you"},{"startTime":2743.544,"endTime":2746.784,"body":"gotta get that explicit acceptance."},{"startTime":2746.784,"endTime":2750.504,"body":"my challenge to people who say that"},{"startTime":2746.784,"endTime":2750.504,"body":"one, week's like, I've talked to a"},{"startTime":2750.504,"endTime":2754.184,"body":"bunch of people that say one week is"},{"startTime":2750.504,"endTime":2754.184,"body":"not, it's not a sustainable cadence."},{"startTime":2754.764,"endTime":2755.094,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2755.099,"endTime":2757.034,"body":"Like the, the, the sustainability, yeah."},{"startTime":2757.094,"endTime":2758.744,"body":"Of the, of, of scrum, right?"},{"startTime":2758.954,"endTime":2759.074,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2759.134,"endTime":2760.544,"body":"Well, one week's not sustainable cadence."},{"startTime":2760.544,"endTime":2765.944,"body":"I'm like, well, if your customer that"},{"startTime":2760.544,"endTime":2765.944,"body":"you're working on the feature in your in"},{"startTime":2765.944,"endTime":2770.984,"body":"your one week, if they tell you they can't"},{"startTime":2765.944,"endTime":2770.984,"body":"be available Friday morning for the demo"},{"startTime":2771.644,"endTime":2773.234,"body":"why wouldn't you, the product person?"},{"startTime":2773.234,"endTime":2775.094,"body":"Why wouldn't you say like, okay, cool."},{"startTime":2775.094,"endTime":2777.704,"body":"Well, if you can't be available"},{"startTime":2775.094,"endTime":2777.704,"body":"for the demo Friday morning, then"},{"startTime":2777.754,"endTime":2779.344,"body":"we're gonna push your feature out."},{"startTime":2779.404,"endTime":2779.674,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":2780.174,"endTime":2781.884,"body":"Oh, two weeks, three weeks."},{"startTime":2781.944,"endTime":2784.884,"body":"Mm-hmm . When, when you tell me"},{"startTime":2781.944,"endTime":2784.884,"body":"the Friday, you can be available"},{"startTime":2785.214,"endTime":2789.174,"body":"and then we'll push even starting"},{"startTime":2785.214,"endTime":2789.174,"body":"working on your feature out and"},{"startTime":2789.174,"endTime":2792.704,"body":"like, like the business people I've"},{"startTime":2789.174,"endTime":2792.704,"body":"been partnered with in the past."},{"startTime":2793.204,"endTime":2798.364,"body":"That usually gets, that gets butts in"},{"startTime":2793.204,"endTime":2798.364,"body":"seats of like, oh no, no, no, no, no."},{"startTime":2798.714,"endTime":2800.464,"body":"I'll, I'll push my meetings on Friday."},{"startTime":2800.584,"endTime":2803.284,"body":"I'll be available for, or Thursday"},{"startTime":2800.584,"endTime":2803.284,"body":"night, whatever, Friday morning,"},{"startTime":2803.284,"endTime":2807.544,"body":"whatever I'll be available, just"},{"startTime":2803.284,"endTime":2807.544,"body":"please start working on my thing"},{"startTime":2807.964,"endTime":2809.764,"body":"like  that sells tickets right there."},{"startTime":2810.314,"endTime":2814.959,"body":"But I also think like even in the two week"},{"startTime":2810.314,"endTime":2814.959,"body":"sprint, even in, in a two week sprint,"},{"startTime":2815.049,"endTime":2818.759,"body":"what, what I am used to first of all,"},{"startTime":2815.049,"endTime":2818.759,"body":"the, the problem with two week experience"},{"startTime":2818.759,"endTime":2820.559,"body":"is, is like the default out of the box."},{"startTime":2820.559,"endTime":2821.339,"body":"Mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":2821.339,"endTime":2821.729,"body":"Time period."},{"startTime":2821.909,"endTime":2825.059,"body":"So most of the teams I've ever worked on"},{"startTime":2821.909,"endTime":2825.059,"body":"two week experience, you have like, well,"},{"startTime":2825.059,"endTime":2829.799,"body":"developer a and B, they're gonna work"},{"startTime":2825.059,"endTime":2829.799,"body":"on feature one and developer C and D."},{"startTime":2829.949,"endTime":2834.929,"body":"They're gonna work on feature two and"},{"startTime":2829.949,"endTime":2834.929,"body":"a developer, a D or whatever, like"},{"startTime":2834.929,"endTime":2836.369,"body":"this terrible name for developer."},{"startTime":2837.029,"endTime":2838.919,"body":"the, the other developer who's left out."},{"startTime":2838.989,"endTime":2841.119,"body":"They're gonna kind of like, they're"},{"startTime":2838.989,"endTime":2841.119,"body":"gonna research some stuff and"},{"startTime":2841.119,"endTime":2843.399,"body":"they're not really working on a"},{"startTime":2841.119,"endTime":2843.399,"body":"feature, but they're maybe they're"},{"startTime":2843.399,"endTime":2844.839,"body":"refactoring or doing some other stuff."},{"startTime":2844.839,"endTime":2848.559,"body":"Like they're not really working"},{"startTime":2844.839,"endTime":2848.559,"body":"on stuff that's in, in the sprint."},{"startTime":2848.869,"endTime":2849.979,"body":"it's not like we're focused."},{"startTime":2849.979,"endTime":2855.409,"body":"The whole team is peer programming on"},{"startTime":2849.979,"endTime":2855.409,"body":"or mob programming on one customer's"},{"startTime":2855.409,"endTime":2857.059,"body":"thing at a time until it's done."},{"startTime":2857.574,"endTime":2860.404,"body":"They're working on"},{"startTime":2857.574,"endTime":2860.404,"body":"multiple streams of work."},{"startTime":2861.364,"endTime":2861.664,"body":"Indeed."},{"startTime":2862.594,"endTime":2865.144,"body":"That's every team I've ever"},{"startTime":2862.594,"endTime":2865.144,"body":"been with is like that."},{"startTime":2865.354,"endTime":2868.654,"body":"And it introduces waterfall within"},{"startTime":2865.354,"endTime":2868.654,"body":"the sprint because you're right."},{"startTime":2868.804,"endTime":2872.764,"body":"The developer who is working on something"},{"startTime":2868.804,"endTime":2872.764,"body":"or planning to work on something is"},{"startTime":2872.764,"endTime":2875.464,"body":"gonna say, I've created my task, but"},{"startTime":2872.764,"endTime":2875.464,"body":"I can't work on it until this other"},{"startTime":2875.469,"endTime":2876.994,"body":"developer finishes with their task."},{"startTime":2877.294,"endTime":2878.104,"body":"So I'm blocked."},{"startTime":2878.404,"endTime":2878.644,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2878.644,"endTime":2880.504,"body":"It's like, how about you"},{"startTime":2878.644,"endTime":2880.504,"body":"lend a hand, or roll up your"},{"startTime":2880.504,"endTime":2881.914,"body":"sleeves, work with that person."},{"startTime":2881.914,"endTime":2881.974,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2881.974,"endTime":2882.124,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2882.184,"endTime":2883.714,"body":"Or go work on something else."},{"startTime":2883.774,"endTime":2885.034,"body":"You're still getting stuff done."},{"startTime":2885.114,"endTime":2890.214,"body":"So this idea, I think originates"},{"startTime":2885.114,"endTime":2890.214,"body":"from the assignment culture, right?"},{"startTime":2890.664,"endTime":2895.944,"body":"The sprint starts and somebody usually"},{"startTime":2890.664,"endTime":2895.944,"body":"the tech lead, or somebody's gonna say,"},{"startTime":2896.124,"endTime":2899.424,"body":"Hey, developer-A, this is assigned to you."},{"startTime":2900.234,"endTime":2901.164,"body":"That's the problem."},{"startTime":2901.164,"endTime":2901.764,"body":"Stop that."},{"startTime":2901.769,"endTime":2901.824,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2901.914,"endTime":2903.054,"body":"Don't assign stuff."},{"startTime":2903.059,"endTime":2905.574,"body":"Let 'em just say, as a"},{"startTime":2903.059,"endTime":2905.574,"body":"team, here's a sprint goal."},{"startTime":2905.574,"endTime":2906.624,"body":"We have to meet, what do we have to."},{"startTime":2907.124,"endTime":2910.334,"body":"well, it may even say get to the"},{"startTime":2907.124,"endTime":2910.334,"body":"point where they say, well, we"},{"startTime":2910.339,"endTime":2911.804,"body":"don't have to task things out."},{"startTime":2911.809,"endTime":2912.824,"body":"Mm-hmm  we just won't get on with it."},{"startTime":2912.824,"endTime":2913.724,"body":"We know what we have to do."},{"startTime":2913.724,"endTime":2914.394,"body":"We have clarity."},{"startTime":2914.419,"endTime":2915.104,"body":"Let's just go."},{"startTime":2915.164,"endTime":2915.404,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2915.434,"endTime":2917.654,"body":"So don't check the box"},{"startTime":2915.434,"endTime":2917.654,"body":"or did they task out?"},{"startTime":2917.654,"endTime":2919.789,"body":"They have to task out"},{"startTime":2917.654,"endTime":2919.789,"body":"don't do any of that stuff."},{"startTime":2920.119,"endTime":2922.669,"body":"If, of course, if they don't task"},{"startTime":2920.119,"endTime":2922.669,"body":"out, you can't see their burn down."},{"startTime":2922.729,"endTime":2922.819,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2922.819,"endTime":2925.579,"body":"But that's the wrong metric"},{"startTime":2922.819,"endTime":2925.579,"body":"to measure 'em by anyway."},{"startTime":2925.639,"endTime":2928.339,"body":"And you know, we have another"},{"startTime":2925.639,"endTime":2928.339,"body":"podcast coming, I think,"},{"startTime":2928.339,"endTime":2930.109,"body":"for like metrics and stuff."},{"startTime":2930.379,"endTime":2930.559,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2930.589,"endTime":2931.039,"body":"So yeah."},{"startTime":2931.039,"endTime":2932.689,"body":"I've seen the same thing myself."},{"startTime":2932.719,"endTime":2933.529,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":2933.534,"endTime":2934.459,"body":"For that reason."},{"startTime":2934.879,"endTime":2935.989,"body":"Share your perspective."},{"startTime":2935.989,"endTime":2938.059,"body":"Like, what do you think,"},{"startTime":2935.989,"endTime":2938.059,"body":"have you seen that too?"},{"startTime":2938.059,"endTime":2938.209,"body":"Or?"},{"startTime":2938.209,"endTime":2938.539,"body":"No,"},{"startTime":2938.989,"endTime":2939.649,"body":"a hundred percent."},{"startTime":2939.654,"endTime":2944.119,"body":"And in a two week sprint, generally you,"},{"startTime":2939.654,"endTime":2944.119,"body":"like you said, it's a mini waterfall"},{"startTime":2944.119,"endTime":2947.599,"body":"sometimes where you'd have a developer"},{"startTime":2944.119,"endTime":2947.599,"body":"who says, oh, I'm gonna work on my"},{"startTime":2947.599,"endTime":2950.439,"body":"thing for a week, maybe six days."},{"startTime":2950.619,"endTime":2956.169,"body":"And then that gives the QA three or"},{"startTime":2950.619,"endTime":2956.169,"body":"four days and then the BA can look"},{"startTime":2956.169,"endTime":2957.489,"body":"at it and then the PO can look at it."},{"startTime":2957.989,"endTime":2959.309,"body":"So you're not all working on it at once."},{"startTime":2959.399,"endTime":2959.789,"body":"No, no, no."},{"startTime":2959.789,"endTime":2962.579,"body":"I gotta do my thing first and"},{"startTime":2959.789,"endTime":2962.579,"body":"then they do their thing next and"},{"startTime":2962.579,"endTime":2964.019,"body":"then I, they do their thing next."},{"startTime":2964.019,"endTime":2964.079,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2964.319,"endTime":2968.009,"body":"As opposed to, if you only have a week"},{"startTime":2964.319,"endTime":2968.009,"body":"and the, the pushback that I always"},{"startTime":2968.009,"endTime":2972.459,"body":"hear against shortening a sprint have"},{"startTime":2968.009,"endTime":2972.459,"body":"a one week sprint is there's no way"},{"startTime":2972.459,"endTime":2973.929,"body":"we could get anything done in a week."},{"startTime":2973.929,"endTime":2973.93,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2973.93,"endTime":2973.931,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2974.199,"endTime":2977.409,"body":"There's no universe where anything can"},{"startTime":2974.199,"endTime":2977.409,"body":"be small enough to be done in a week."},{"startTime":2977.909,"endTime":2980.509,"body":"Well, let's say we had"},{"startTime":2977.909,"endTime":2980.509,"body":"to, what does that mean?"},{"startTime":2980.509,"endTime":2985.189,"body":"Well, means QA would have to start working"},{"startTime":2980.509,"endTime":2985.189,"body":"with the developer right at the beginning."},{"startTime":2985.519,"endTime":2987.349,"body":"Well, yeah, that's what we want."},{"startTime":2987.469,"endTime":2987.769,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":2987.769,"endTime":2988.399,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":2988.789,"endTime":2990.799,"body":"We we'd have to be working"},{"startTime":2988.789,"endTime":2990.799,"body":"on at the same time."},{"startTime":2991.699,"endTime":2992.299,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2992.299,"endTime":2994.279,"body":"Like you're making my point for me here."},{"startTime":2994.309,"endTime":2994.459,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2994.519,"endTime":2996.909,"body":"But I think you hit the nail on the head."},{"startTime":2997.674,"endTime":2999.714,"body":"Since two weeks is the norm."},{"startTime":3000.284,"endTime":3002.114,"body":"And look, I, I'm not gonna lie."},{"startTime":3002.174,"endTime":3004.694,"body":"It's not a terrible cadence."},{"startTime":3004.694,"endTime":3006.254,"body":"I mean, two weeks is pretty good."},{"startTime":3006.254,"endTime":3007.544,"body":"Listen, it's better than six weeks."},{"startTime":3007.544,"endTime":3008.354,"body":"Yeah, sure."},{"startTime":3008.564,"endTime":3009.614,"body":"Two weeks is pretty good."},{"startTime":3009.634,"endTime":3011.204,"body":"Six, six weeks is not a sprint by the way."},{"startTime":3011.204,"endTime":3011.984,"body":"That's a marathon."},{"startTime":3012.074,"endTime":3012.344,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3012.914,"endTime":3017.774,"body":"But you know, it's not a terrible thing,"},{"startTime":3012.914,"endTime":3017.774,"body":"but since so many people do it, so"},{"startTime":3017.774,"endTime":3018.884,"body":"many people are comfortable with it."},{"startTime":3018.884,"endTime":3022.964,"body":"You get into this habit of,"},{"startTime":3018.884,"endTime":3022.964,"body":"of, I have four or five, six"},{"startTime":3022.964,"endTime":3024.074,"body":"days to get my work done."},{"startTime":3024.074,"endTime":3026.264,"body":"Then they have this time to get"},{"startTime":3024.074,"endTime":3026.264,"body":"their work done and then they have"},{"startTime":3026.264,"endTime":3027.554,"body":"their time to get that work done."},{"startTime":3027.554,"endTime":3032.054,"body":"So if I have a thing that can"},{"startTime":3027.554,"endTime":3032.054,"body":"take two weeks, that's fine."},{"startTime":3032.234,"endTime":3033.974,"body":"I won't break it down"},{"startTime":3032.234,"endTime":3033.974,"body":"any smaller than that."},{"startTime":3033.974,"endTime":3035.534,"body":"And that's, that's a fine thing to do."},{"startTime":3035.564,"endTime":3035.804,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3036.054,"endTime":3037.759,"body":"We like, we don't talk about that enough."},{"startTime":3037.759,"endTime":3040.429,"body":"Probably cuz we don't dig deep enough"},{"startTime":3037.759,"endTime":3040.429,"body":"in the work, usually on the pile."},{"startTime":3040.434,"endTime":3045.679,"body":"Like we, yeah, like the, the idea"},{"startTime":3040.434,"endTime":3045.679,"body":"of like, well I'm gonna go off and"},{"startTime":3045.684,"endTime":3049.249,"body":"put my headphones on and work on"},{"startTime":3045.684,"endTime":3049.249,"body":"something for four days without"},{"startTime":3049.759,"endTime":3052.339,"body":"anyone looking over my shoulder."},{"startTime":3052.744,"endTime":3056.434,"body":"And then I'm gonna come out and hold"},{"startTime":3052.744,"endTime":3056.434,"body":"it up, like the lion king and show"},{"startTime":3056.434,"endTime":3058.294,"body":"everyone after X amount of days."},{"startTime":3058.474,"endTime":3063.184,"body":"And then after that I move into the next"},{"startTime":3058.474,"endTime":3063.184,"body":"phase of the QA person gets to look at it."},{"startTime":3063.184,"endTime":3065.974,"body":"When they come out, they get to hold"},{"startTime":3063.184,"endTime":3065.974,"body":"it up, like the lion king and certify"},{"startTime":3065.974,"endTime":3069.564,"body":"it like nah, that's like, we're not,"},{"startTime":3065.974,"endTime":3069.564,"body":"we're not collaborating at that point."},{"startTime":3069.644,"endTime":3071.714,"body":"We're mini waterfall at that point."},{"startTime":3072.164,"endTime":3072.704,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":3072.704,"endTime":3076.604,"body":"We're not a team of five people,"},{"startTime":3072.704,"endTime":3076.604,"body":"whatever it is, seven people, we're"},{"startTime":3076.604,"endTime":3078.014,"body":"seven teams of one person each."},{"startTime":3078.044,"endTime":3078.344,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3078.614,"endTime":3079.214,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":3079.214,"endTime":3079.574,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3079.844,"endTime":3084.584,"body":"And you're gaining the efficiencies"},{"startTime":3079.844,"endTime":3084.584,"body":"of having that waterfall only be two"},{"startTime":3084.584,"endTime":3091.394,"body":"weeks, which is better than having"},{"startTime":3084.584,"endTime":3091.394,"body":"it be six months, but it's not ideal."},{"startTime":3091.454,"endTime":3094.194,"body":"I mean, it it's slither crawl, walk, run."},{"startTime":3094.224,"endTime":3094.374,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3094.374,"endTime":3098.964,"body":"So get the waterfall down in two weeks"},{"startTime":3094.374,"endTime":3098.964,"body":"and then work with the team to say,"},{"startTime":3098.994,"endTime":3102.564,"body":"okay guys, now, now we can get better."},{"startTime":3102.564,"endTime":3106.014,"body":"Now we can actually do this stuff"},{"startTime":3102.564,"endTime":3106.014,"body":"all at the same time and we can"},{"startTime":3106.014,"endTime":3107.844,"body":"swarm on things, et cetera, etcetera."},{"startTime":3108.624,"endTime":3108.864,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3108.894,"endTime":3110.454,"body":"So you, you can use certain, sorry."},{"startTime":3110.454,"endTime":3111.234,"body":"I mean, no, no, no."},{"startTime":3111.234,"endTime":3113.244,"body":"It's just say you can use"},{"startTime":3111.234,"endTime":3113.244,"body":"certain smells for that."},{"startTime":3113.244,"endTime":3113.454,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":3113.454,"endTime":3116.214,"body":"It's if you're often seeing things"},{"startTime":3113.454,"endTime":3116.214,"body":"that are dev complete, but not"},{"startTime":3116.484,"endTime":3119.694,"body":"QA complete at the end of the"},{"startTime":3116.484,"endTime":3119.694,"body":"sprint, what is going on there?"},{"startTime":3119.814,"endTime":3123.084,"body":"Mm-hmm you know, so those kinds of"},{"startTime":3119.814,"endTime":3123.084,"body":"things you can introspect on and"},{"startTime":3123.204,"endTime":3124.794,"body":"you try and change things up a bit."},{"startTime":3125.294,"endTime":3126.784,"body":"I don't think that was the original point."},{"startTime":3126.784,"endTime":3127.204,"body":"Anyway."},{"startTime":3127.204,"endTime":3129.454,"body":"So we've gone down like"},{"startTime":3127.204,"endTime":3129.454,"body":"three rabbit holes."},{"startTime":3129.664,"endTime":3130.624,"body":"We went a bit of field."},{"startTime":3130.974,"endTime":3133.734,"body":"I think it fits very well"},{"startTime":3130.974,"endTime":3133.734,"body":"into the same category."},{"startTime":3133.764,"endTime":3137.774,"body":"Cause again, if you're, if you"},{"startTime":3133.764,"endTime":3137.774,"body":"don't get to inspect what you're"},{"startTime":3137.774,"endTime":3142.844,"body":"doing until all your little phase"},{"startTime":3137.774,"endTime":3142.844,"body":"gates,  phase, gates are complete."},{"startTime":3142.894,"endTime":3145.624,"body":"You are faking yourself into"},{"startTime":3142.894,"endTime":3145.624,"body":"thinking you're making progress."},{"startTime":3145.624,"endTime":3145.954,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":3146.614,"endTime":3146.994,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":3147.004,"endTime":3149.284,"body":"This is, we've talked about"},{"startTime":3147.004,"endTime":3149.284,"body":"this before on the podcast."},{"startTime":3149.284,"endTime":3152.284,"body":"This phenomenon is what I"},{"startTime":3149.284,"endTime":3152.284,"body":"call the illusion of progress."},{"startTime":3152.284,"endTime":3153.544,"body":"You're not making progress."},{"startTime":3153.544,"endTime":3153.994,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3153.999,"endTime":3154.034,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3154.039,"endTime":3154.894,"body":"You think you are."},{"startTime":3154.924,"endTime":3159.554,"body":"And unfortunately the blind leadership"},{"startTime":3154.924,"endTime":3159.554,"body":"will say, great, you're doing great."},{"startTime":3159.784,"endTime":3160.024,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3160.024,"endTime":3162.604,"body":"Because you're feeding them"},{"startTime":3160.024,"endTime":3162.604,"body":"what they're measuring you on."},{"startTime":3162.754,"endTime":3162.874,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3162.874,"endTime":3164.494,"body":"But you're really not moving the needle."},{"startTime":3164.584,"endTime":3164.914,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3165.034,"endTime":3165.994,"body":"Absolutely not."},{"startTime":3165.994,"endTime":3169.264,"body":"Well, that's, that's, that's"},{"startTime":3165.994,"endTime":3169.264,"body":"this, this last category that we"},{"startTime":3169.264,"endTime":3174.454,"body":"started with was instrumentation"},{"startTime":3169.264,"endTime":3174.454,"body":"mm-hmm  so what to measure, right."},{"startTime":3174.514,"endTime":3178.674,"body":"So if you're measuring like, oh"},{"startTime":3174.514,"endTime":3178.674,"body":"my, my dev drop  I think of like"},{"startTime":3178.674,"endTime":3179.814,"body":"cycle time, lead them, right?"},{"startTime":3179.814,"endTime":3179.874,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3179.904,"endTime":3183.234,"body":"If you're, if you're gaming cycle"},{"startTime":3179.904,"endTime":3183.234,"body":"time, lead time, even further to."},{"startTime":3183.849,"endTime":3188.169,"body":"Oh, from the time that my developer"},{"startTime":3183.849,"endTime":3188.169,"body":"started on it to the time they"},{"startTime":3188.169,"endTime":3192.639,"body":"dropped it to QA and my developers"},{"startTime":3188.169,"endTime":3192.639,"body":"are only measured on that time."},{"startTime":3192.849,"endTime":3198.399,"body":"But then my QA are only measured on"},{"startTime":3192.849,"endTime":3198.399,"body":"how long they take the test on over the"},{"startTime":3198.549,"endTime":3200.799,"body":"number of defects that they detect inside."},{"startTime":3200.804,"endTime":3203.799,"body":"Versus like, you're"},{"startTime":3200.804,"endTime":3203.799,"body":"playing a lot of games."},{"startTime":3204.369,"endTime":3206.559,"body":"You playing a lot of games at that point."},{"startTime":3207.249,"endTime":3208.539,"body":"Well, so yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":3208.539,"endTime":3212.499,"body":"So is a given player on your"},{"startTime":3208.539,"endTime":3212.499,"body":"football team only judged by"},{"startTime":3212.499,"endTime":3215.829,"body":"the number of yards in the game?"},{"startTime":3215.834,"endTime":3218.829,"body":"I don't mean individually cuz"},{"startTime":3215.834,"endTime":3218.829,"body":"everybody's measuring that cause you"},{"startTime":3218.834,"endTime":3223.599,"body":"can, everybody measures stats out, out"},{"startTime":3218.834,"endTime":3223.599,"body":"the ying yang, but your team as a whole"},{"startTime":3223.599,"endTime":3226.149,"body":"doesn't win or lose based on that one."},{"startTime":3226.149,"endTime":3227.169,"body":"Person's yardage."},{"startTime":3227.199,"endTime":3227.439,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3227.444,"endTime":3227.519,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3227.559,"endTime":3230.889,"body":"And your star player may not get"},{"startTime":3227.559,"endTime":3230.889,"body":"any yard even better, even better."},{"startTime":3230.889,"endTime":3232.519,"body":"How, how many times they're passed."},{"startTime":3232.899,"endTime":3233.379,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3233.379,"endTime":3236.769,"body":"That's like how many times your, your"},{"startTime":3233.379,"endTime":3236.769,"body":"player is festival like, well, your"},{"startTime":3236.769,"endTime":3240.459,"body":"defensive lineman are the most terrible"},{"startTime":3236.769,"endTime":3240.459,"body":"people on your tour at that point."},{"startTime":3240.459,"endTime":3240.849,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":3241.179,"endTime":3241.749,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":3241.754,"endTime":3242.229,"body":"They don't get that."},{"startTime":3242.234,"endTime":3244.089,"body":"That's not part of the process"},{"startTime":3242.234,"endTime":3244.089,"body":"for them to get the ball."},{"startTime":3244.149,"endTime":3246.459,"body":"So like, why are you measuring"},{"startTime":3244.149,"endTime":3246.459,"body":"that this is terrible."},{"startTime":3246.489,"endTime":3247.629,"body":"That's terrible metric."},{"startTime":3247.869,"endTime":3248.379,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":3248.409,"endTime":3253.254,"body":"but again,  what you incentivize"},{"startTime":3248.409,"endTime":3253.254,"body":"has a huge impact, what you get"},{"startTime":3253.254,"endTime":3254.514,"body":"or you become what you measure."},{"startTime":3254.904,"endTime":3255.054,"body":"Correct."},{"startTime":3255.114,"endTime":3259.074,"body":"You know, that's because of that"},{"startTime":3255.114,"endTime":3259.074,"body":"thing, you incentivize that behavior."},{"startTime":3259.074,"endTime":3259.314,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3259.374,"endTime":3259.704,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3259.964,"endTime":3264.224,"body":"If you say you're gonna get a thousand"},{"startTime":3259.964,"endTime":3264.224,"body":"dollars bonus in six months, if you"},{"startTime":3264.224,"endTime":3269.594,"body":"increase your velocity by 25%, Ooh,"},{"startTime":3264.224,"endTime":3269.594,"body":"that team will absolutely do that."},{"startTime":3269.624,"endTime":3272.774,"body":"Ooh, because a one becomes a two, a"},{"startTime":3269.624,"endTime":3272.774,"body":"two becomes a three, a three becomes"},{"startTime":3272.774,"endTime":3274.364,"body":"a five and a five becomes an eight."},{"startTime":3274.604,"endTime":3275.474,"body":"And guess what?"},{"startTime":3275.534,"endTime":3277.064,"body":"I've now increased my velocity."},{"startTime":3277.069,"endTime":3280.904,"body":"You don't have anything better,"},{"startTime":3277.069,"endTime":3280.904,"body":"but that velocity has increased."},{"startTime":3281.174,"endTime":3284.534,"body":"Does it make your checks payable"},{"startTime":3281.174,"endTime":3284.534,"body":"to arguing agile it right?"},{"startTime":3284.624,"endTime":3285.824,"body":"I've seen that behavior."},{"startTime":3285.824,"endTime":3286.724,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":3286.724,"endTime":3287.144,"body":"You describe it."},{"startTime":3287.144,"endTime":3290.744,"body":"Well, you spin that around a little"},{"startTime":3287.144,"endTime":3290.744,"body":"bit and you say, all right, well,"},{"startTime":3290.804,"endTime":3294.794,"body":"how about we're gonna measure"},{"startTime":3290.804,"endTime":3294.794,"body":"number of stories, outputted."},{"startTime":3294.914,"endTime":3297.074,"body":"That's still not great"},{"startTime":3294.914,"endTime":3297.074,"body":"because it's not value."},{"startTime":3297.254,"endTime":3297.494,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3297.584,"endTime":3302.774,"body":"But, I would argue it's way better,"},{"startTime":3297.584,"endTime":3302.774,"body":"because if you say I got more stories out"},{"startTime":3302.774,"endTime":3304.874,"body":"the door, those are by definition smaller."},{"startTime":3305.024,"endTime":3305.294,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3305.384,"endTime":3307.874,"body":"So generally those are gonna be better."},{"startTime":3307.974,"endTime":3310.369,"body":"It's not great, but it's better."},{"startTime":3310.459,"endTime":3310.639,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3310.669,"endTime":3312.409,"body":"So the thing that you're measuring."},{"startTime":3312.909,"endTime":3317.099,"body":"matters  if all you're measuring"},{"startTime":3312.909,"endTime":3317.099,"body":"is velocity or, or yeah."},{"startTime":3317.159,"endTime":3321.149,"body":"You know, number of stores or whatever,"},{"startTime":3317.159,"endTime":3321.149,"body":"it's gonna have an impact on that team."},{"startTime":3321.149,"endTime":3323.159,"body":"And it could be slightly good."},{"startTime":3323.369,"endTime":3326.879,"body":"Could be very terribly bad, but"},{"startTime":3323.369,"endTime":3326.879,"body":"it's gonna have an impact on them."},{"startTime":3326.934,"endTime":3327.754,"body":"Yeah, you're right."},{"startTime":3327.754,"endTime":3332.074,"body":"Absolutely measuring the wrong"},{"startTime":3327.754,"endTime":3332.074,"body":"thing, precipitates that behavior."},{"startTime":3332.134,"endTime":3332.344,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":3332.344,"endTime":3336.244,"body":"So the team's gonna not only"},{"startTime":3332.344,"endTime":3336.244,"body":"estimate everything at the next"},{"startTime":3336.244,"endTime":3339.724,"body":"level up five becomes an, a cetera,"},{"startTime":3336.244,"endTime":3339.724,"body":"as you said, they may even take"},{"startTime":3339.724,"endTime":3341.284,"body":"something and go that too big."},{"startTime":3341.289,"endTime":3342.424,"body":"Let's break it up now."},{"startTime":3342.424,"endTime":3347.614,"body":"It's, it's a five and a five they'll"},{"startTime":3342.424,"endTime":3347.614,"body":"find ways because that's, they figure out"},{"startTime":3347.614,"endTime":3351.214,"body":"very quickly, that's how they reward it"},{"startTime":3347.614,"endTime":3351.214,"body":"or measure it at least forget rewarding."},{"startTime":3351.244,"endTime":3352.204,"body":"That's how they're measured."},{"startTime":3352.264,"endTime":3352.894,"body":"Mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":3352.894,"endTime":3354.514,"body":"So I agree with that."},{"startTime":3354.514,"endTime":3357.274,"body":"I, I think people that are doing this."},{"startTime":3357.679,"endTime":3359.239,"body":"Don't know how to measure."},{"startTime":3359.629,"endTime":3362.659,"body":"And this has been a, a constant"},{"startTime":3359.629,"endTime":3362.659,"body":"theme on the podcast, too."},{"startTime":3362.689,"endTime":3367.429,"body":"Those people in quote, unquote"},{"startTime":3362.689,"endTime":3367.429,"body":"management, I, I, I'll not use the word"},{"startTime":3367.429,"endTime":3369.139,"body":"leadership cause leaders don't do that."},{"startTime":3369.199,"endTime":3374.154,"body":"Mm-hmm  management, those people grew"},{"startTime":3369.199,"endTime":3374.154,"body":"up a certain way, not in an agile way."},{"startTime":3374.564,"endTime":3378.074,"body":"They grew up in, in that"},{"startTime":3374.564,"endTime":3378.074,"body":"crack the way waterfall way."},{"startTime":3378.164,"endTime":3379.664,"body":"So that's all they know."},{"startTime":3380.174,"endTime":3380.984,"body":"That's what they know."},{"startTime":3381.044,"endTime":3383.864,"body":"So you can't really sit back and go,"},{"startTime":3381.044,"endTime":3383.864,"body":"ah, those people, they don't know."},{"startTime":3384.134,"endTime":3384.794,"body":"Well, they don't."},{"startTime":3384.794,"endTime":3385.094,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3385.094,"endTime":3390.014,"body":"And so it it's on us to educate"},{"startTime":3385.094,"endTime":3390.014,"body":"them in the best way possible."},{"startTime":3390.524,"endTime":3391.694,"body":"As long as they're open to that."},{"startTime":3391.944,"endTime":3393.754,"body":"I think we've solved the"},{"startTime":3391.944,"endTime":3393.754,"body":"world's problems now."},{"startTime":3393.754,"endTime":3394.734,"body":"You've solved all the problems."},{"startTime":3394.794,"endTime":3395.604,"body":"Everything's solved."},{"startTime":3396.114,"endTime":3396.474,"body":"Cool."},{"startTime":3397.374,"endTime":3401.319,"body":"So this was a podcast that went kind"},{"startTime":3397.374,"endTime":3401.319,"body":"of different places, but let us know"},{"startTime":3401.319,"endTime":3403.609,"body":"what you think and comment below."},{"startTime":3403.669,"endTime":3408.259,"body":"And don't forget to smash that like"},{"startTime":3403.669,"endTime":3408.259,"body":"button and we wanna say special."},{"startTime":3408.264,"endTime":3411.889,"body":"Thank you to Ted for coming up"},{"startTime":3408.264,"endTime":3411.889,"body":"on the podcast as a guest today."},{"startTime":3412.249,"endTime":3412.789,"body":"Thank you guys."},{"startTime":3413.059,"endTime":3413.959,"body":"He'll show up again."},{"startTime":3413.959,"endTime":3415.539,"body":"Hopefully we'll scare him off."},{"startTime":3415.789,"endTime":3416.569,"body":"I appreciate it."},{"startTime":3416.629,"endTime":3416.899,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3417.289,"endTime":3417.669,"body":"Thanks Ted!."}]}