{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":0.719,"body":"So stormy."},{"startTime":0.724,"endTime":4.479,"body":"I wanted to do a podcast for a while"},{"startTime":0.724,"endTime":4.479,"body":"about psychological safety, but"},{"startTime":4.479,"endTime":7.479,"body":"from a perspective that I've never"},{"startTime":4.479,"endTime":7.479,"body":"seen before, which is I'm going"},{"startTime":7.479,"endTime":9.419,"body":"to try to, to make a case against."},{"startTime":9.757,"endTime":10.957,"body":"Oh my gosh, this came up."},{"startTime":10.957,"endTime":15.727,"body":"So just saying, did it, it's kind of,  can"},{"startTime":10.957,"endTime":15.727,"body":"I, can I shoot you this cuz it's short."},{"startTime":15.732,"endTime":16.057,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":16.057,"endTime":16.507,"body":"Send it over."},{"startTime":16.577,"endTime":19.282,"body":"So this is interesting because"},{"startTime":16.577,"endTime":19.282,"body":"we talked about this today,"},{"startTime":19.332,"endTime":19.602,"body":"okay."},{"startTime":19.602,"endTime":20.172,"body":"Per perfect."},{"startTime":20.227,"endTime":22.657,"body":"I like to blow it up to a point"},{"startTime":20.227,"endTime":22.657,"body":"where I cut out the yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":22.657,"endTime":23.167,"body":"Or author."},{"startTime":23.167,"endTime":24.347,"body":"So, which is yeah."},{"startTime":24.407,"endTime":28.607,"body":"So it says, if I were to write a"},{"startTime":24.407,"endTime":28.607,"body":"book about slash for organizational"},{"startTime":28.607,"endTime":31.757,"body":"leadership, It would be a condemnation"},{"startTime":28.607,"endTime":31.757,"body":"of the leadership message today,"},{"startTime":31.757,"endTime":36.077,"body":"which is about self-help being more"},{"startTime":31.757,"endTime":36.077,"body":"purposeful, empathetic, motivating,"},{"startTime":36.107,"endTime":37.537,"body":"people-centric, et cetera, cetera."},{"startTime":37.737,"endTime":39.362,"body":"He says don't get me wrong."},{"startTime":39.692,"endTime":41.612,"body":"Air quotes, leaders,"},{"startTime":39.692,"endTime":41.612,"body":"leaders, quotes leaders."},{"startTime":41.617,"endTime":45.552,"body":"Mm-hmm . People go to"},{"startTime":41.617,"endTime":45.552,"body":"work to work their work."},{"startTime":45.612,"endTime":46.872,"body":"Why is, why is it working caps?"},{"startTime":46.932,"endTime":50.362,"body":"Mm-hmm  should be motivating, purposeful,"},{"startTime":46.932,"endTime":50.362,"body":"and done in connection with others here."},{"startTime":50.462,"endTime":51.272,"body":"Here's the thing leaders."},{"startTime":51.277,"endTime":51.842,"body":"It's not about you."},{"startTime":51.842,"endTime":55.982,"body":"It's about the work, how it's done,"},{"startTime":51.842,"endTime":55.982,"body":"why it's done and where it's done."},{"startTime":56.032,"endTime":57.022,"body":"I think I've read enough."},{"startTime":57.072,"endTime":59.442,"body":"you need to really stop"},{"startTime":57.072,"endTime":59.442,"body":"looking in the mirror so much."},{"startTime":60.022,"endTime":64.392,"body":"And instead of focus on the process,"},{"startTime":60.022,"endTime":64.392,"body":"protocols and rules behind preventing"},{"startTime":64.392,"endTime":68.702,"body":"work from being meaningful and"},{"startTime":64.392,"endTime":68.702,"body":"collaborative, I'm not even sure what"},{"startTime":68.922,"endTime":69.212,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":69.742,"endTime":71.542,"body":"This is why I love slash hate LinkedIn."},{"startTime":71.792,"endTime":75.782,"body":"Why are we concentrating so much on"},{"startTime":71.792,"endTime":75.782,"body":"this warm and fuzzy BS mm-hmm  and"},{"startTime":75.782,"endTime":79.232,"body":"just go to work, listen to your"},{"startTime":75.782,"endTime":79.232,"body":"leaders and just do what you're told."},{"startTime":79.712,"endTime":81.842,"body":"That's kind of what I distilled from that."},{"startTime":82.002,"endTime":83.952,"body":"I mean, that, that is a lot of people's."},{"startTime":84.437,"endTime":86.117,"body":"Point of view, that is a lot of people's."},{"startTime":86.497,"endTime":89.117,"body":"And does that, does that kind of fit"},{"startTime":86.497,"endTime":89.117,"body":"into what you were talking about?"},{"startTime":89.417,"endTime":92.117,"body":"It certainly fits in the"},{"startTime":89.417,"endTime":92.117,"body":"category of psychological"},{"startTime":92.117,"endTime":93.767,"body":"safety is a bunch of nonsense."},{"startTime":93.797,"endTime":95.477,"body":"Get back to work, like do what I say."},{"startTime":96.107,"endTime":97.697,"body":"I don't even know if it's"},{"startTime":96.107,"endTime":97.697,"body":"do what I say though."},{"startTime":97.727,"endTime":100.377,"body":"I don't know if that's a fair assessment."},{"startTime":101.067,"endTime":102.387,"body":"Of the category."},{"startTime":102.537,"endTime":102.747,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":102.847,"endTime":105.417,"body":"I wrote some points before"},{"startTime":102.847,"endTime":105.417,"body":"you got here expecting to"},{"startTime":105.417,"endTime":106.707,"body":"like, boom, get right into it."},{"startTime":107.097,"endTime":113.347,"body":"The first point that I had listed was you"},{"startTime":107.097,"endTime":113.347,"body":"have not earned the right to autonomy yet."},{"startTime":113.497,"endTime":113.617,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":113.677,"endTime":115.507,"body":"Like you're like, oh, empower my team."},{"startTime":115.687,"endTime":119.137,"body":"But I, as a leader, I'm like, well,"},{"startTime":115.687,"endTime":119.137,"body":"I you're new or you're a new team,"},{"startTime":119.142,"endTime":120.487,"body":"or I still have to check in on you."},{"startTime":120.607,"endTime":123.787,"body":"I think that's gonna be the flow of this"},{"startTime":120.607,"endTime":123.787,"body":"podcast is I'll give you a point and"},{"startTime":123.787,"endTime":126.007,"body":"then you tell me what arguing against it."},{"startTime":126.607,"endTime":126.727,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":127.027,"endTime":130.607,"body":"Cause because the arguing point here"},{"startTime":127.027,"endTime":130.607,"body":"is you have not earned that trust where"},{"startTime":130.607,"endTime":135.347,"body":"I trust you to be empowered, to figure"},{"startTime":130.607,"endTime":135.347,"body":"out , the way to get to the goal."},{"startTime":136.097,"endTime":141.107,"body":"I guess my question, my, my immediate"},{"startTime":136.097,"endTime":141.107,"body":"question to that would be what would"},{"startTime":141.107,"endTime":144.997,"body":"be your definition of earning trust?"},{"startTime":145.057,"endTime":146.497,"body":"What does that mean to you?"},{"startTime":146.502,"endTime":148.327,"body":"So you're speaking from"},{"startTime":146.502,"endTime":148.327,"body":"a leadership perspective."},{"startTime":148.537,"endTime":151.447,"body":"So the team has earned your"},{"startTime":148.537,"endTime":151.447,"body":"trust to be autonomous."},{"startTime":151.447,"endTime":151.507,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":151.567,"endTime":156.127,"body":"And to work to be self organizing"},{"startTime":151.567,"endTime":156.127,"body":"and figure things out on."},{"startTime":157.017,"endTime":161.127,"body":"So I'm until you've earned that trust,"},{"startTime":157.017,"endTime":161.127,"body":"then I'm gonna tell you what to do."},{"startTime":161.247,"endTime":164.807,"body":"Mm-hmm  or now it's not even just, I"},{"startTime":161.247,"endTime":164.807,"body":"could, I'm gonna tell you what to do."},{"startTime":164.807,"endTime":168.737,"body":"It could be like, I, the manager"},{"startTime":164.807,"endTime":168.737,"body":"I'm gonna come to all of your"},{"startTime":169.157,"endTime":170.777,"body":"events and whatnot, you know?"},{"startTime":170.782,"endTime":171.017,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":171.017,"endTime":171.317,"body":"I see."},{"startTime":171.947,"endTime":172.607,"body":"I've seen this a lot."},{"startTime":172.612,"endTime":173.477,"body":"It's micromanage."},{"startTime":173.507,"endTime":173.717,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":173.722,"endTime":176.117,"body":"I've seen this a lot in my"},{"startTime":173.722,"endTime":176.117,"body":"career with teams of contractors."},{"startTime":176.327,"endTime":178.407,"body":"Mm-hmm  I don't, , a hundred percent"},{"startTime":176.327,"endTime":178.407,"body":"trust the teams of contractors."},{"startTime":178.407,"endTime":179.997,"body":"So I'm gonna come to your refinements."},{"startTime":180.237,"endTime":181.587,"body":"I'm gonna come to your sprint planning."},{"startTime":182.557,"endTime":184.297,"body":"I'm gonna drop into your retrospectives."},{"startTime":184.797,"endTime":185.127,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":185.287,"endTime":188.887,"body":"So it sounds from a leadership"},{"startTime":185.287,"endTime":188.887,"body":"perspective, you are trying to"},{"startTime":189.387,"endTime":194.157,"body":"check some boxes to make sure"},{"startTime":189.387,"endTime":194.157,"body":"what that definition of trust is"},{"startTime":194.247,"endTime":196.707,"body":"like, are they actually working"},{"startTime":197.107,"endTime":198.367,"body":"I've hired you to do a job."},{"startTime":198.577,"endTime":200.377,"body":"I'm gonna come in and make"},{"startTime":198.577,"endTime":200.377,"body":"sure that you're doing"},{"startTime":200.377,"endTime":202.237,"body":"something that qualifies to me."},{"startTime":203.062,"endTime":206.122,"body":"Checking that box of whatever"},{"startTime":203.062,"endTime":206.122,"body":"work that I've hired you to do."},{"startTime":206.582,"endTime":207.452,"body":"Is that what you're saying?"},{"startTime":207.652,"endTime":208.642,"body":"I mean, it could be,"},{"startTime":208.942,"endTime":211.672,"body":"I'm not a hundred percent certain"},{"startTime":208.942,"endTime":211.672,"body":"cuz I, I think this one is like"},{"startTime":211.672,"endTime":215.862,"body":"sometimes people just are on different"},{"startTime":211.672,"endTime":215.862,"body":"wavelengths mm-hmm that, that"},{"startTime":215.862,"endTime":217.122,"body":"could be what's going on with this."},{"startTime":217.622,"endTime":220.112,"body":"It could be that it could be,"},{"startTime":217.622,"endTime":220.112,"body":"we're just not on wavelengths."},{"startTime":220.112,"endTime":222.122,"body":"See, we're not on the"},{"startTime":220.112,"endTime":222.122,"body":"correct wavelengths yet."},{"startTime":222.222,"endTime":223.602,"body":"One of the goals."},{"startTime":223.602,"endTime":229.932,"body":"I dunno if it's a goal, one of the key"},{"startTime":223.602,"endTime":229.932,"body":"points of psychological safety is you"},{"startTime":229.932,"endTime":236.612,"body":"should be able to be your true, real self"},{"startTime":229.932,"endTime":236.612,"body":"mm-hmm . And if you have somebody in the"},{"startTime":236.612,"endTime":241.807,"body":"equation who obviously is not being their"},{"startTime":236.612,"endTime":241.807,"body":"true, real self  they're not willing"},{"startTime":241.812,"endTime":245.227,"body":"to go out and say, These are the things"},{"startTime":241.812,"endTime":245.227,"body":"I need to be able to trust your team."},{"startTime":245.647,"endTime":246.967,"body":"Like that was the first thing you went to."},{"startTime":246.967,"endTime":249.997,"body":"You're like, okay, well, gimme, gimme a"},{"startTime":246.967,"endTime":249.997,"body":"checklist of things that you need to be"},{"startTime":249.997,"endTime":253.717,"body":"able to trust my team and then let us"},{"startTime":249.997,"endTime":253.717,"body":"prove that and then get outta my life."},{"startTime":253.717,"endTime":255.307,"body":"That's not actually what I was going for."},{"startTime":255.307,"endTime":259.607,"body":"I was asking your so what I was trying"},{"startTime":255.307,"endTime":259.607,"body":"to do is understand your perspective."},{"startTime":259.877,"endTime":263.087,"body":"So from a leader, it sounds like"},{"startTime":259.877,"endTime":263.087,"body":"there is some checklist, some mental"},{"startTime":263.087,"endTime":268.442,"body":"checklist that you need to be able to"},{"startTime":263.087,"endTime":268.442,"body":"fulfill, to say, Now I trust the team."},{"startTime":269.042,"endTime":272.792,"body":"So what I'm trying to do is go"},{"startTime":269.042,"endTime":272.792,"body":", okay, from a leader's perspective,"},{"startTime":273.002,"endTime":274.412,"body":"what does that mean to you now?"},{"startTime":274.412,"endTime":277.052,"body":"I'm not saying that that means you're"},{"startTime":274.412,"endTime":277.052,"body":"gonna give me your checklist and"},{"startTime":277.052,"endTime":279.632,"body":"I'm gonna make sure to meet those"},{"startTime":277.052,"endTime":279.632,"body":"checklists so that you can trust me."},{"startTime":279.637,"endTime":282.122,"body":"But what I'm trying to do is"},{"startTime":279.637,"endTime":282.122,"body":"understand where you're coming from."},{"startTime":282.172,"endTime":286.012,"body":"What is it that you're looking"},{"startTime":282.172,"endTime":286.012,"body":"for so that you feel comfortable"},{"startTime":286.192,"endTime":288.412,"body":"in saying team do your thing?"},{"startTime":289.172,"endTime":290.192,"body":"Here's what I believe."},{"startTime":290.462,"endTime":295.742,"body":"I am vehemently opposed to micromanagement"},{"startTime":290.462,"endTime":295.742,"body":"and I feel like we you know, we're"},{"startTime":295.742,"endTime":297.992,"body":"doing a good job in hiring good people."},{"startTime":298.742,"endTime":301.562,"body":"And as a leader, hiring"},{"startTime":298.742,"endTime":301.562,"body":"people smarter than."},{"startTime":302.062,"endTime":305.302,"body":"Which I'm comfortable in doing so"},{"startTime":302.062,"endTime":305.302,"body":"that I don't have such a huge ego"},{"startTime":305.302,"endTime":307.972,"body":"to say I wanna make sure that I'm"},{"startTime":305.302,"endTime":307.972,"body":"the smartest person in the room."},{"startTime":308.162,"endTime":311.342,"body":". So I'm gonna hire people that are smarter"},{"startTime":308.162,"endTime":311.342,"body":"than me that are gonna do a better"},{"startTime":311.347,"endTime":313.322,"body":"job at what they know how to do best."},{"startTime":313.502,"endTime":317.582,"body":"And I am going to allow them"},{"startTime":313.502,"endTime":317.582,"body":"to go free and do that thing."},{"startTime":317.812,"endTime":319.432,"body":"That becomes self-limiting."},{"startTime":319.822,"endTime":321.772,"body":"So, yes, there is a period of time."},{"startTime":321.772,"endTime":323.842,"body":"So we need to go through for"},{"startTime":321.772,"endTime":323.842,"body":"particularly as a team that"},{"startTime":323.842,"endTime":325.132,"body":"forming storming norming thing."},{"startTime":325.462,"endTime":330.872,"body":"But particularly as a team, when we"},{"startTime":325.462,"endTime":330.872,"body":"have people who are working together"},{"startTime":331.292,"endTime":335.402,"body":"and the expectation is that we succeed"},{"startTime":331.292,"endTime":335.402,"body":"together and we fail together, the"},{"startTime":335.402,"endTime":337.772,"body":"team will keep a team accountable."},{"startTime":337.772,"endTime":339.242,"body":"They keep themselves accountable."},{"startTime":339.322,"endTime":343.447,"body":"And I, as a leader am reliant on"},{"startTime":339.322,"endTime":343.447,"body":"that and becomes self-limiting."},{"startTime":343.447,"endTime":345.427,"body":"If I have somebody who's"},{"startTime":343.447,"endTime":345.427,"body":"not pulling their weight."},{"startTime":346.402,"endTime":349.462,"body":"Then that's something that"},{"startTime":346.402,"endTime":349.462,"body":"typically the team deals with."},{"startTime":349.522,"endTime":349.672,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":349.852,"endTime":352.912,"body":"And if it isn't something that can"},{"startTime":349.852,"endTime":352.912,"body":"be resolved within the team, then it"},{"startTime":352.912,"endTime":356.332,"body":"is something that's, that's elevated"},{"startTime":352.912,"endTime":356.332,"body":"up through management and then will"},{"startTime":356.337,"endTime":359.937,"body":"come to potentially to something"},{"startTime":356.337,"endTime":359.937,"body":"that, that a leader needs to handle."},{"startTime":359.942,"endTime":363.517,"body":"Mm-hmm  so  and, and kind of the"},{"startTime":359.942,"endTime":363.517,"body":"short way of saying that is if I'm"},{"startTime":363.517,"endTime":367.207,"body":"hiring somebody with the skills that"},{"startTime":363.517,"endTime":367.207,"body":"I need to do a good job, or do the,"},{"startTime":367.207,"endTime":370.057,"body":"do the job that I need them to do,"},{"startTime":367.207,"endTime":370.057,"body":"I'm gonna trust them to do that."},{"startTime":370.207,"endTime":373.147,"body":"And if it turns out that they can't"},{"startTime":370.207,"endTime":373.147,"body":"do that job, or they can't do it"},{"startTime":373.147,"endTime":377.827,"body":"well, mm-hmm  then they, like I"},{"startTime":373.147,"endTime":377.827,"body":"said, it becomes self-limiting"},{"startTime":377.887,"endTime":379.507,"body":"and they can't hold their weight."},{"startTime":379.807,"endTime":383.707,"body":"Then I will either work to find"},{"startTime":379.807,"endTime":383.707,"body":"them an opportunity that maybe is"},{"startTime":383.707,"endTime":385.657,"body":"more appropriate or get rid of them."},{"startTime":385.777,"endTime":388.597,"body":"I think like this is an interesting"},{"startTime":385.777,"endTime":388.597,"body":"category  the empowerment"},{"startTime":388.597,"endTime":393.837,"body":"category and the, the dealing"},{"startTime":388.597,"endTime":393.837,"body":"with things as a team category."},{"startTime":394.307,"endTime":398.807,"body":"I wonder why most people don't do this"},{"startTime":394.307,"endTime":398.807,"body":"when they claim to have empowered teams"},{"startTime":399.057,"endTime":403.017,"body":"I'll give you the example I'm thinking"},{"startTime":399.057,"endTime":403.017,"body":"of your company claims that have"},{"startTime":403.017,"endTime":407.607,"body":"empowered teams, but then you do, yearly"},{"startTime":403.017,"endTime":407.607,"body":"performance reviews that are one on one."},{"startTime":408.107,"endTime":410.807,"body":"and all of your metrics and all"},{"startTime":408.107,"endTime":410.807,"body":"of your judgments and whatever are"},{"startTime":410.807,"endTime":412.757,"body":"based on individual contributions."},{"startTime":413.207,"endTime":413.297,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":413.447,"endTime":416.687,"body":"Normally the performance reviews"},{"startTime":413.447,"endTime":416.687,"body":"are directly tied to whatever"},{"startTime":416.687,"endTime":419.997,"body":"pay and bonuses and raises or"},{"startTime":416.687,"endTime":419.997,"body":"whatever the end of the year."},{"startTime":420.002,"endTime":420.962,"body":", how can you do that?"},{"startTime":421.212,"endTime":423.683,"body":"And claim to have this at the same."},{"startTime":424.308,"endTime":426.678,"body":"It seems like you can't like you are"},{"startTime":424.308,"endTime":426.678,"body":"not gonna be able to play in both"},{"startTime":426.678,"endTime":430.868,"body":"worlds  or am I conflating this with"},{"startTime":426.678,"endTime":430.868,"body":"another bullet point or something else?"},{"startTime":431.858,"endTime":435.578,"body":"So not sure you could be, but my mind."},{"startTime":435.578,"endTime":435.938,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":435.938,"endTime":440.998,"body":"But my mind went kind of in a, so I"},{"startTime":435.938,"endTime":440.998,"body":"think that there could be individual"},{"startTime":440.998,"endTime":444.898,"body":"and, and really should be in"},{"startTime":440.998,"endTime":444.898,"body":"individual evaluations, but perhaps"},{"startTime":444.928,"endTime":447.268,"body":"in combination with a team evaluation."},{"startTime":447.688,"endTime":451.268,"body":"And even input from the team."},{"startTime":451.418,"endTime":451.628,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":451.748,"endTime":454.868,"body":"But the other thought I had about"},{"startTime":451.748,"endTime":454.868,"body":"this is wow, what an opportunity."},{"startTime":454.868,"endTime":457.718,"body":"So I think you bring up a"},{"startTime":454.868,"endTime":457.718,"body":"really great point, what an"},{"startTime":457.718,"endTime":459.368,"body":"opportunity to do an experiment."},{"startTime":459.498,"endTime":462.653,"body":"So as a team, we succeed"},{"startTime":459.498,"endTime":462.653,"body":"together and we fail together."},{"startTime":463.403,"endTime":467.543,"body":"So what if our incentive is based on that?"},{"startTime":467.783,"endTime":467.843,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":467.873,"endTime":468.143,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":468.143,"endTime":471.023,"body":"What if our, if we have an annual"},{"startTime":468.143,"endTime":471.023,"body":"incentive or some other incentive,"},{"startTime":471.023,"endTime":474.693,"body":"a quarterly or whatever what"},{"startTime":471.023,"endTime":474.693,"body":"if we're judging each other or"},{"startTime":474.693,"endTime":476.763,"body":"grading each other as a team?"},{"startTime":476.973,"endTime":481.233,"body":"So what I can tell you is, for instance,"},{"startTime":476.973,"endTime":481.233,"body":"I've been in retrospectives where I would"},{"startTime":481.238,"endTime":485.733,"body":"have someone say, do you know what, the"},{"startTime":481.238,"endTime":485.733,"body":"last six months I've been going through?"},{"startTime":486.153,"endTime":486.723,"body":"whatever."},{"startTime":486.723,"endTime":489.903,"body":"And I, I can honestly say I"},{"startTime":486.723,"endTime":489.903,"body":"have not been pulling my weight."},{"startTime":489.993,"endTime":490.173,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":490.793,"endTime":491.313,"body":"I haven't."},{"startTime":491.433,"endTime":496.263,"body":"And so if we have, let's say the"},{"startTime":491.433,"endTime":496.263,"body":"standard 3% raise every year, right."},{"startTime":496.773,"endTime":501.713,"body":"And let's just say that across the"},{"startTime":496.773,"endTime":501.713,"body":"board our team could decide what, just,"},{"startTime":501.718,"endTime":505.633,"body":"everybody gets a 3% raise mm-hmm . , and"},{"startTime":501.718,"endTime":505.633,"body":"I'm using this not a bonus structure,"},{"startTime":505.633,"endTime":508.963,"body":"I'm saying a raise, and this is from a"},{"startTime":505.633,"endTime":508.963,"body":"very corporate kind of thought process."},{"startTime":508.963,"endTime":509.154,"body":"Sure, sure, sure."},{"startTime":509.159,"endTime":511.423,"body":"This may not apply, but just"},{"startTime":509.159,"endTime":511.423,"body":"an example, the, the accounting"},{"startTime":511.423,"endTime":512.443,"body":"center corporate, like."},{"startTime":512.733,"endTime":516.453,"body":"3% raised so that you're"},{"startTime":512.733,"endTime":516.453,"body":"only 5% below inflation."},{"startTime":516.453,"endTime":517.503,"body":"I mean, whatever."},{"startTime":517.503,"endTime":517.653,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":517.773,"endTime":520.383,"body":"I hate it, but whatever"},{"startTime":517.773,"endTime":520.383,"body":"that's, it's, it's very common."},{"startTime":520.773,"endTime":524.273,"body":"So, but let's just say, so as a"},{"startTime":520.773,"endTime":524.273,"body":"manager of that department, you have"},{"startTime":524.273,"endTime":526.643,"body":"to decide, you give one person 4%."},{"startTime":526.648,"endTime":528.793,"body":"That means somebody else"},{"startTime":526.648,"endTime":528.793,"body":"gets 2% mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":529.253,"endTime":532.053,"body":"But what if you had input from your."},{"startTime":532.553,"endTime":535.613,"body":"What if your team was able to be"},{"startTime":532.553,"endTime":535.613,"body":"involved in that, and this is just all"},{"startTime":535.613,"endTime":537.173,"body":"hypothesis, maybe people are doing this."},{"startTime":537.173,"endTime":537.863,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":538.183,"endTime":538.473,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":538.583,"endTime":542.973,"body":"But what if your team was able to"},{"startTime":538.583,"endTime":542.973,"body":"be involved either at the level of"},{"startTime":542.973,"endTime":548.073,"body":"deciding what race and how it should"},{"startTime":542.973,"endTime":548.073,"body":"be dis dispersed within their team or"},{"startTime":548.078,"endTime":552.768,"body":"a combination of individual evaluations"},{"startTime":548.078,"endTime":552.768,"body":"along with a team evaluation,"},{"startTime":552.768,"endTime":554.358,"body":"have some kind of a metrics there."},{"startTime":555.123,"endTime":557.103,"body":"I don't know, just some"},{"startTime":555.123,"endTime":557.103,"body":"thoughts that, that, that just."},{"startTime":557.988,"endTime":559.578,"body":"Thrown out there people may be doing this."},{"startTime":559.578,"endTime":560.628,"body":"I, I really have no idea."},{"startTime":560.688,"endTime":565.358,"body":"Well, there, there are 360 feedback"},{"startTime":560.688,"endTime":565.358,"body":"type models out there where you get"},{"startTime":565.408,"endTime":569.123,"body":"feedback from your entire team or,"},{"startTime":565.408,"endTime":569.123,"body":"we've even floated that on the podcast."},{"startTime":569.123,"endTime":574.763,"body":"The idea of like a net promoter score at"},{"startTime":569.123,"endTime":574.763,"body":"not an individual level at a team level."},{"startTime":574.768,"endTime":578.518,"body":"I floated in a previous podcast,"},{"startTime":574.768,"endTime":578.518,"body":"don't ask me which podcast it was."},{"startTime":578.518,"endTime":579.388,"body":"Cuz I have no idea."},{"startTime":579.748,"endTime":583.808,"body":"I floated in a previous podcast, if"},{"startTime":579.748,"endTime":583.808,"body":"you have a program that has a bunch"},{"startTime":583.808,"endTime":587.078,"body":"of product owners slash managers,"},{"startTime":583.808,"endTime":587.078,"body":"doesn't really matter what you drop"},{"startTime":587.078,"endTime":588.488,"body":"title, a bunch of product people."},{"startTime":588.878,"endTime":593.198,"body":"The idea that the people"},{"startTime":588.878,"endTime":593.198,"body":"that those product managers"},{"startTime":593.228,"endTime":594.908,"body":"slash owners interact with."},{"startTime":595.408,"endTime":598.448,"body":"On a certain time basis, give"},{"startTime":595.408,"endTime":598.448,"body":"them a survey, how happy are"},{"startTime":598.448,"endTime":601.568,"body":"you that your product ideas"},{"startTime":598.448,"endTime":601.568,"body":"being taken into consideration?"},{"startTime":601.868,"endTime":605.198,"body":"How happy are you that your"},{"startTime":601.868,"endTime":605.198,"body":"product needs are being met?"},{"startTime":605.198,"endTime":605.708,"body":"That kind of stuff?"},{"startTime":605.708,"endTime":608.978,"body":"Just, just, this is a very simple"},{"startTime":605.708,"endTime":608.978,"body":"net promoter score thumbs up, thumbs"},{"startTime":608.978,"endTime":611.708,"body":"down, or it could be a one to five,"},{"startTime":608.978,"endTime":611.708,"body":"whatever it could be, anything."},{"startTime":612.208,"endTime":615.608,"body":"and as a product organization,"},{"startTime":612.208,"endTime":615.608,"body":"you start getting your you"},{"startTime":615.608,"endTime":618.248,"body":"start getting user feedback."},{"startTime":618.488,"endTime":623.078,"body":"Now your, your users is a"},{"startTime":618.488,"endTime":623.078,"body":"very broad category, right?"},{"startTime":623.078,"endTime":625.208,"body":"It, it could be a mix of"},{"startTime":623.078,"endTime":625.208,"body":"internal, external could be"},{"startTime":625.208,"endTime":626.978,"body":"external, only customers, users."},{"startTime":626.998,"endTime":627.618,"body":"It could be yeah."},{"startTime":627.898,"endTime":628.298,"body":"Customers, users."},{"startTime":628.298,"endTime":628.958,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":629.498,"endTime":633.638,"body":"It could be a breakdown of the"},{"startTime":629.498,"endTime":633.638,"body":"categories across like you survey"},{"startTime":633.638,"endTime":636.908,"body":"a bunch of people and you aggregate"},{"startTime":633.638,"endTime":636.908,"body":"it all together, but then you break"},{"startTime":636.908,"endTime":638.678,"body":"it down and there could be a lot."},{"startTime":639.428,"endTime":643.478,"body":"In that discussion, but I, I floated that"},{"startTime":639.428,"endTime":643.478,"body":"on the podcast before well, maybe we just"},{"startTime":643.478,"endTime":647.528,"body":"do a very simple survey of five questions,"},{"startTime":643.478,"endTime":647.528,"body":"one through five, and we come up with"},{"startTime":647.528,"endTime":652.528,"body":"a score but I feel like at a certain"},{"startTime":647.528,"endTime":652.528,"body":"point you have a, I don't even know"},{"startTime":652.528,"endTime":656.228,"body":"if I can say this with a straight face"},{"startTime":652.528,"endTime":656.228,"body":"at a certain point,  product managers,"},{"startTime":656.438,"endTime":658.298,"body":"even I like probably even scrum masters."},{"startTime":658.478,"endTime":660.758,"body":"Like you probably know"},{"startTime":658.478,"endTime":660.758,"body":"where your weaknesses are"},{"startTime":661.408,"endTime":665.728,"body":"No, like the reason I bring this topic"},{"startTime":661.408,"endTime":665.728,"body":"up is because like the, the next segue to"},{"startTime":665.728,"endTime":670.968,"body":"this topic is psychological safety is the"},{"startTime":665.728,"endTime":670.968,"body":"arguing point that psychological safety"},{"startTime":670.968,"endTime":673.788,"body":"is just a shield versus accountability."},{"startTime":674.448,"endTime":674.838,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":674.868,"endTime":679.098,"body":"Because the, the, the, the team"},{"startTime":674.868,"endTime":679.098,"body":"structure, I, I know I'm gonna"},{"startTime":679.148,"endTime":680.318,"body":"this is a heavy, heavy topic."},{"startTime":680.318,"endTime":682.238,"body":"Need to make some notes,"},{"startTime":680.318,"endTime":682.238,"body":"like the team structure."},{"startTime":682.238,"endTime":682.418,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":682.418,"endTime":682.628,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":682.628,"endTime":682.928,"body":"Take it."},{"startTime":683.198,"endTime":685.028,"body":"The team idea."},{"startTime":685.493,"endTime":688.133,"body":"Like what we were talking about oh,"},{"startTime":685.493,"endTime":688.133,"body":"well, if you're gonna have a net promoter"},{"startTime":688.133,"endTime":689.333,"body":"score, it should be a team level."},{"startTime":689.333,"endTime":690.623,"body":"It shouldn't be an individual level."},{"startTime":690.983,"endTime":694.403,"body":"Or if we're gonna do feedback, it"},{"startTime":690.983,"endTime":694.403,"body":"should be a team level feedback."},{"startTime":695.228,"endTime":696.788,"body":"Shouldn't be individual feedback."},{"startTime":696.818,"endTime":700.508,"body":"Mm-hmm  well, the arguing point, the"},{"startTime":696.818,"endTime":700.508,"body":"management argument point for that I feel"},{"startTime":700.538,"endTime":706.058,"body":"would be well that like, at that point,"},{"startTime":700.538,"endTime":706.058,"body":"like how do you know, on a team who's"},{"startTime":706.108,"endTime":709.798,"body":"carrying most of the way to the team and"},{"startTime":706.108,"endTime":709.798,"body":"who's dragging, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":709.798,"endTime":714.083,"body":"Like there was a, you're using the"},{"startTime":709.798,"endTime":714.083,"body":"team as a shield to accountability."},{"startTime":714.083,"endTime":717.113,"body":"So what you just said was like,"},{"startTime":714.083,"endTime":717.113,"body":"well, let the team figure."},{"startTime":717.578,"endTime":718.958,"body":"Who makes bonuses or whatever."},{"startTime":719.008,"endTime":723.688,"body":"the difficult part of that is it's"},{"startTime":719.008,"endTime":723.688,"body":"tough for any group of people to point"},{"startTime":723.688,"endTime":726.838,"body":"at any one person and be like you are"},{"startTime":723.688,"endTime":726.838,"body":"the low performer or you're the weakest"},{"startTime":726.838,"endTime":728.128,"body":"link you're voted off the island."},{"startTime":728.338,"endTime":732.018,"body":"I just confused all kinds of"},{"startTime":728.338,"endTime":732.018,"body":"things when I said that, but"},{"startTime":732.068,"endTime":732.878,"body":"People, a lot of people get."},{"startTime":732.908,"endTime":733.988,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":733.988,"endTime":736.688,"body":"Like that is tough for a team to do."},{"startTime":736.688,"endTime":742.608,"body":"So they might like dealing with that"},{"startTime":736.688,"endTime":742.608,"body":"tough conversation might be harder"},{"startTime":742.608,"endTime":746.508,"body":"than just giving everyone on the"},{"startTime":742.608,"endTime":746.508,"body":"team in equal bonus or whatever."},{"startTime":746.988,"endTime":747.408,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":747.928,"endTime":749.988,"body":"So I, I agree with that point."},{"startTime":750.288,"endTime":755.328,"body":"However, I think that it would be"},{"startTime":750.288,"endTime":755.328,"body":"a lot more difficult for your new."},{"startTime":755.828,"endTime":761.528,"body":"Who are still working because building"},{"startTime":755.828,"endTime":761.528,"body":"psychological safety and trust,"},{"startTime":761.528,"endTime":763.268,"body":"particularly within the team takes time."},{"startTime":763.478,"endTime":763.628,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":763.808,"endTime":764.168,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":764.408,"endTime":768.668,"body":"So if you are, I don't know, say you"},{"startTime":764.408,"endTime":768.668,"body":"have a review within the first six"},{"startTime":768.673,"endTime":771.998,"body":"months just because it happens at"},{"startTime":768.673,"endTime":771.998,"body":"the same time every year, you know?"},{"startTime":772.328,"endTime":774.488,"body":"So within the first six months,"},{"startTime":772.328,"endTime":774.488,"body":"you haven't had the time with"},{"startTime":774.488,"endTime":779.948,"body":"your team to really get to the"},{"startTime":774.488,"endTime":779.948,"body":"point where you can call somebody."},{"startTime":780.448,"endTime":781.558,"body":"in a safe way."},{"startTime":781.558,"endTime":783.808,"body":"So that that person doesn't feel attacked."},{"startTime":783.958,"endTime":784.528,"body":"Mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":784.533,"endTime":790.038,"body":"So they are taking it  as a point"},{"startTime":784.533,"endTime":790.038,"body":"of opportunity and appreciate that"},{"startTime":790.038,"endTime":792.618,"body":"saying, you know what, I appreciate"},{"startTime":790.038,"endTime":792.618,"body":"you bringing that up cuz that's"},{"startTime":792.618,"endTime":794.088,"body":"helping me to grow and develop."},{"startTime":794.118,"endTime":794.268,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":794.628,"endTime":799.458,"body":"So I would imagine that a team at,"},{"startTime":794.628,"endTime":799.458,"body":"particularly at the beginning would"},{"startTime":799.458,"endTime":803.028,"body":"probably take the safe route and say, all"},{"startTime":799.458,"endTime":803.028,"body":"right, everybody just gets the same raise."},{"startTime":803.028,"endTime":803.388,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":803.388,"endTime":806.688,"body":"Mm-hmm  but this would be the perfect,"},{"startTime":803.388,"endTime":806.688,"body":"I mean, this would be kind of, I"},{"startTime":806.688,"endTime":810.738,"body":"think the perfect opportunity or"},{"startTime":806.688,"endTime":810.738,"body":"thing to discuss in a retrospective."},{"startTime":810.738,"endTime":812.808,"body":"So when we're talking about process yeah."},{"startTime":812.868,"endTime":814.728,"body":"We're talking about improvement."},{"startTime":814.978,"endTime":819.118,"body":"The other thing I would say"},{"startTime":814.978,"endTime":819.118,"body":"is you will always have."},{"startTime":819.658,"endTime":824.668,"body":"A variation of skills and abilities"},{"startTime":819.658,"endTime":824.668,"body":"within a team teams, things are gonna be"},{"startTime":825.268,"endTime":828.838,"body":"some team members are gonna be stronger"},{"startTime":825.268,"endTime":828.838,"body":"than others and that's necessary."},{"startTime":828.838,"endTime":832.938,"body":"I think, within a team you're not"},{"startTime":828.838,"endTime":832.938,"body":"going to have every person on a"},{"startTime":832.938,"endTime":838.458,"body":"team that's going to be the rockstar"},{"startTime":832.938,"endTime":838.458,"body":"in everything that we have to do."},{"startTime":838.788,"endTime":838.848,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":838.848,"endTime":843.688,"body":"And depending over a period of time, what"},{"startTime":838.848,"endTime":843.688,"body":"we see is  we have people really shine"},{"startTime":843.688,"endTime":846.118,"body":"in some areas and better than others."},{"startTime":846.358,"endTime":849.868,"body":"And sometimes people find that"},{"startTime":846.358,"endTime":849.868,"body":"they realize that they shine in"},{"startTime":849.868,"endTime":851.098,"body":"places they didn't even know."},{"startTime":851.098,"endTime":853.598,"body":"So you have these kind"},{"startTime":851.098,"endTime":853.598,"body":"of norming happen, right?"},{"startTime":853.598,"endTime":853.658,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":853.688,"endTime":858.458,"body":"So as you go through the teams, so"},{"startTime":853.688,"endTime":858.458,"body":"I think that as your team matures,"},{"startTime":858.878,"endTime":862.948,"body":"that you would have, that feedback"},{"startTime":858.878,"endTime":862.948,"body":"loop within your team, that."},{"startTime":863.608,"endTime":866.678,"body":"Usually have a retrospective"},{"startTime":863.608,"endTime":866.678,"body":"mm-hmm  , that would be more and"},{"startTime":866.678,"endTime":873.038,"body":"more honest and more and more"},{"startTime":866.678,"endTime":873.038,"body":"readily received and appreciated"},{"startTime":873.258,"endTime":878.018,"body":"if we get to the point to, as of"},{"startTime":873.258,"endTime":878.018,"body":"incentives, now we start this, this"},{"startTime":878.018,"endTime":880.178,"body":"actually I think could cause a real rift."},{"startTime":880.748,"endTime":882.158,"body":"Actually when you think about it."},{"startTime":882.158,"endTime":885.098,"body":"So now thinking about this a little"},{"startTime":882.158,"endTime":885.098,"body":"more going like, wow, all of a"},{"startTime":885.098,"endTime":886.988,"body":"sudden we're talking about money."},{"startTime":887.488,"endTime":889.198,"body":"That's almost counterintuitive."},{"startTime":889.228,"endTime":892.138,"body":"Mm-hmm  right now we"},{"startTime":889.228,"endTime":892.138,"body":"throw incentive in here."},{"startTime":893.038,"endTime":896.598,"body":"Ah, does throwing the team into it."},{"startTime":896.603,"endTime":902.238,"body":"So from a self evaluation perspective,"},{"startTime":896.603,"endTime":902.238,"body":"I think that that would be a good thing."},{"startTime":902.238,"endTime":906.858,"body":"So the team to self-evaluate as a"},{"startTime":902.238,"endTime":906.858,"body":"team, but for the team to maybe."},{"startTime":907.358,"endTime":911.288,"body":"come to terms with who gets,"},{"startTime":907.358,"endTime":911.288,"body":"what, in regards to monetary."},{"startTime":911.288,"endTime":911.798,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":911.798,"endTime":915.998,"body":"There would be some I, that, that,"},{"startTime":911.798,"endTime":915.998,"body":"that would take some, I would say maybe"},{"startTime":915.998,"endTime":920.968,"body":"some experimentation mm-hmm  well,"},{"startTime":915.998,"endTime":920.968,"body":"this, this is the part about teams"},{"startTime":921.458,"endTime":925.078,"body":"where , in the modern implementation of."},{"startTime":925.578,"endTime":926.148,"body":"Air quotes."},{"startTime":926.208,"endTime":930.338,"body":"I'm doing air quotes for people that"},{"startTime":926.208,"endTime":930.338,"body":"are only listening to this agile where"},{"startTime":930.438,"endTime":933.498,"body":"assuming you have some kind of"},{"startTime":930.438,"endTime":933.498,"body":"mechanism for the team members"},{"startTime":933.503,"endTime":935.058,"body":"saying, Hey, we value this person."},{"startTime":935.058,"endTime":936.438,"body":"We don't want this person to leave."},{"startTime":936.658,"endTime":940.058,"body":"We absolutely can't survive without"},{"startTime":936.658,"endTime":940.058,"body":"this person that kind of thumbs"},{"startTime":940.058,"endTime":941.948,"body":"up, thumbs down type of voting."},{"startTime":942.718,"endTime":947.488,"body":"They have to have worked out some"},{"startTime":942.718,"endTime":947.488,"body":"sort of bonus structure based off of."},{"startTime":947.988,"endTime":951.198,"body":"Consensus style vote."},{"startTime":951.468,"endTime":955.038,"body":"Mm-hmm  but I don't know I don't"},{"startTime":951.468,"endTime":955.038,"body":"know, it's part that, but it's also"},{"startTime":955.038,"endTime":960.258,"body":"part like you, if your team is truly"},{"startTime":955.038,"endTime":960.258,"body":"cross-functional people in that specific"},{"startTime":960.258,"endTime":964.008,"body":"skill set, like for example, if you have"},{"startTime":960.258,"endTime":964.008,"body":"somebody on your team, every team has"},{"startTime":964.008,"endTime":969.243,"body":"one QA engineer, for example, mm-hmm"},{"startTime":964.008,"endTime":969.243,"body":"and all the QA engineers together."},{"startTime":969.743,"endTime":974.063,"body":"represent a community mm-hmm  inside"},{"startTime":969.743,"endTime":974.063,"body":"the company and maybe, maybe"},{"startTime":974.063,"endTime":976.163,"body":"the bonus structure is part."},{"startTime":976.283,"endTime":977.993,"body":"Maybe the bonus structure is three parts."},{"startTime":978.363,"endTime":978.813,"body":"Sorry."},{"startTime":978.873,"endTime":981.093,"body":"The I'll do the, the own German three."},{"startTime":981.183,"endTime":981.543,"body":"There you go."},{"startTime":982.043,"endTime":983.723,"body":"maybe the bonus structure is three parts."},{"startTime":983.728,"endTime":987.263,"body":"Maybe the three parts is number one"},{"startTime":983.728,"endTime":987.263,"body":"that person's whoever hired that"},{"startTime":987.263,"endTime":990.263,"body":"person, their direct people manager."},{"startTime":990.443,"endTime":991.643,"body":"I don't know, hiring manager."},{"startTime":991.643,"endTime":992.363,"body":"I don't know what to call it."},{"startTime":992.923,"endTime":996.103,"body":"Number two, their team,"},{"startTime":992.923,"endTime":996.103,"body":"number three, their community."},{"startTime":996.523,"endTime":999.103,"body":"mm-hmm  and or community lead, right?"},{"startTime":999.773,"endTime":1004.183,"body":"Maybe it's that maybe it's those three"},{"startTime":999.773,"endTime":1004.183,"body":"pieces put together and the HR person kind"},{"startTime":1004.183,"endTime":1008.323,"body":"of walks around and, and does the hard"},{"startTime":1004.183,"endTime":1008.323,"body":"work of consolidating the feedback and"},{"startTime":1009.053,"endTime":1012.323,"body":"giving the feedback that, because you, you"},{"startTime":1009.053,"endTime":1012.323,"body":"could be talking about a lot of people."},{"startTime":1012.413,"endTime":1014.653,"body":"I mean, you could be talking"},{"startTime":1012.413,"endTime":1014.653,"body":"about you, community manager,"},{"startTime":1015.503,"endTime":1017.293,"body":"all the other people in the C."},{"startTime":1018.218,"endTime":1021.068,"body":"when you're doing community practice"},{"startTime":1018.218,"endTime":1021.068,"body":"events, mm-hmm  you could be talking"},{"startTime":1021.068,"endTime":1024.398,"body":"about your direct supervisor,"},{"startTime":1021.068,"endTime":1024.398,"body":"who person who hired you into the"},{"startTime":1024.398,"endTime":1027.998,"body":"company, the person who's like, oh,"},{"startTime":1024.398,"endTime":1027.998,"body":"I, I hired you into the company."},{"startTime":1028.118,"endTime":1032.603,"body":"I expect you to grow as a person and I'm"},{"startTime":1028.118,"endTime":1032.603,"body":"kind of your mentor, but you know, I'm not"},{"startTime":1032.603,"endTime":1036.923,"body":"really there every single day, that kind"},{"startTime":1032.603,"endTime":1036.923,"body":"of person that I don't, I don't know, like"},{"startTime":1036.923,"endTime":1040.783,"body":"I, in terms of what, what they would be"},{"startTime":1036.923,"endTime":1040.783,"body":"day to day and then your team, obviously."},{"startTime":1040.783,"endTime":1042.793,"body":"So someone's gotta mesh all that feed."},{"startTime":1043.293,"endTime":1047.223,"body":"And then present it to you in"},{"startTime":1043.293,"endTime":1047.223,"body":"a way that is constructive."},{"startTime":1047.723,"endTime":1048.863,"body":"Sounds like a lot of work."},{"startTime":1049.493,"endTime":1050.153,"body":"Here's a thought."},{"startTime":1050.553,"endTime":1050.843,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1051.113,"endTime":1051.403,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1051.523,"endTime":1052.123,"body":"I, yeah."},{"startTime":1052.128,"endTime":1053.183,"body":"HR is a lot of work."},{"startTime":1053.183,"endTime":1053.543,"body":"Isn't it?"},{"startTime":1053.543,"endTime":1053.753,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1053.753,"endTime":1055.853,"body":"What I'm just saying"},{"startTime":1053.753,"endTime":1055.853,"body":"though, is it necessary?"},{"startTime":1056.303,"endTime":1060.283,"body":"So what if oh, what if we"},{"startTime":1056.303,"endTime":1060.283,"body":"just didn't have bonuses?"},{"startTime":1060.583,"endTime":1065.563,"body":"What if we just, I don't know,"},{"startTime":1060.583,"endTime":1065.563,"body":"paid people appropriately and"},{"startTime":1065.563,"endTime":1068.213,"body":"didn't have this competition."},{"startTime":1068.723,"endTime":1073.313,"body":"Between team members, which if we"},{"startTime":1068.723,"endTime":1073.313,"body":"started off with this talking about"},{"startTime":1073.313,"endTime":1078.693,"body":"psychological safety, if we're having,"},{"startTime":1073.313,"endTime":1078.693,"body":"if we have team members or even multiple"},{"startTime":1078.698,"endTime":1084.223,"body":"teams that are, are, are we've created"},{"startTime":1078.698,"endTime":1084.223,"body":"an environment, which is actually"},{"startTime":1084.223,"endTime":1090.243,"body":"going to impede that mm-hmm, , it's"},{"startTime":1084.223,"endTime":1090.243,"body":"going to be a detriment to trust."},{"startTime":1090.743,"endTime":1092.273,"body":"What is the incentive of this person?"},{"startTime":1092.273,"endTime":1093.683,"body":"Why are they saying that like, Hm."},{"startTime":1093.713,"endTime":1100.123,"body":"And potentially breed bad behavior"},{"startTime":1093.713,"endTime":1100.123,"body":"to incentivize themselves."},{"startTime":1100.623,"endTime":1105.603,"body":"So, I mean, maybe all context is key here."},{"startTime":1105.603,"endTime":1110.153,"body":"I get that But maybe bonus"},{"startTime":1105.603,"endTime":1110.153,"body":"should be looked at more at"},{"startTime":1110.153,"endTime":1112.073,"body":"a much higher organizational."},{"startTime":1112.073,"endTime":1117.313,"body":"Hey, we made some profit and let's"},{"startTime":1112.073,"endTime":1117.313,"body":"distribute this amongst our employees"},{"startTime":1117.733,"endTime":1120.723,"body":"and not have to quibble about it because."},{"startTime":1121.383,"endTime":1122.403,"body":"our teams."},{"startTime":1122.463,"endTime":1122.673,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1122.673,"endTime":1127.563,"body":"Our teams fail and succeed together,"},{"startTime":1122.673,"endTime":1127.563,"body":"but the cross functionality of those"},{"startTime":1127.563,"endTime":1132.453,"body":"teams and the bigger picture of those"},{"startTime":1127.563,"endTime":1132.453,"body":"teams working together are what makes"},{"startTime":1132.483,"endTime":1135.543,"body":"our entire organization fail or succeed."},{"startTime":1135.573,"endTime":1135.633,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1135.843,"endTime":1139.113,"body":"So if our organization"},{"startTime":1135.843,"endTime":1139.113,"body":"is succeeding, it is."},{"startTime":1139.613,"endTime":1143.243,"body":"To some extent, a piece and"},{"startTime":1139.613,"endTime":1143.243,"body":"piece parcel of every one of"},{"startTime":1143.243,"endTime":1144.803,"body":"those teams working together."},{"startTime":1144.808,"endTime":1149.333,"body":"Mm-hmm  and some of those teams"},{"startTime":1144.808,"endTime":1149.333,"body":"will have back pedaled for reasons"},{"startTime":1149.883,"endTime":1151.593,"body":"under no control of their own."},{"startTime":1152.163,"endTime":1156.603,"body":", and still we're able to somehow"},{"startTime":1152.163,"endTime":1156.603,"body":"kind of pull through, right?"},{"startTime":1156.603,"endTime":1156.663,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1156.693,"endTime":1159.423,"body":"So all everybody's gonna have different"},{"startTime":1156.693,"endTime":1159.423,"body":"challenges, but if at the end of"},{"startTime":1159.423,"endTime":1161.553,"body":"the year, we've all come together."},{"startTime":1162.213,"endTime":1162.573,"body":"right."},{"startTime":1162.573,"endTime":1166.983,"body":"And we have all moved"},{"startTime":1162.573,"endTime":1166.983,"body":"forward and been profitable."},{"startTime":1166.983,"endTime":1171.873,"body":"Mm-hmm  so I, I just wonder almost if,"},{"startTime":1166.983,"endTime":1171.873,"body":"if this whole incentivizing or bonus"},{"startTime":1171.878,"endTime":1178.328,"body":"structure is almost counterintuitive to"},{"startTime":1171.878,"endTime":1178.328,"body":"the the ability for teams for the sake"},{"startTime":1178.328,"endTime":1184.148,"body":"of agile to create the motivation, the"},{"startTime":1178.328,"endTime":1184.148,"body":"support and the trust that is needed"},{"startTime":1184.208,"endTime":1186.218,"body":"according to, to agile principles."},{"startTime":1186.308,"endTime":1186.428,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1186.428,"endTime":1189.188,"body":"I, I see where you're going and"},{"startTime":1186.428,"endTime":1189.188,"body":"it goes against my arguing point,"},{"startTime":1189.188,"endTime":1190.178,"body":"but I think it's a good point."},{"startTime":1190.178,"endTime":1193.198,"body":"So I'm gonna highlight it , this"},{"startTime":1190.178,"endTime":1193.198,"body":"specific bullet point we're talking"},{"startTime":1193.198,"endTime":1196.918,"body":"about is, oh, you're just using this"},{"startTime":1193.198,"endTime":1196.918,"body":"as a shield against accountability."},{"startTime":1197.188,"endTime":1199.673,"body":"But  if you're one team, one"},{"startTime":1197.188,"endTime":1199.673,"body":"product, one team, right?"},{"startTime":1199.943,"endTime":1200.273,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1200.303,"endTime":1201.623,"body":"We're making some assumptions right here."},{"startTime":1201.953,"endTime":1203.633,"body":"Let's say small, let's say small company."},{"startTime":1203.633,"endTime":1205.013,"body":"Maybe you only have one"},{"startTime":1203.633,"endTime":1205.013,"body":"product on one team."},{"startTime":1205.013,"endTime":1205.613,"body":"Yeah, it could be."},{"startTime":1205.613,"endTime":1209.843,"body":"Well your, if you are product owner"},{"startTime":1205.613,"endTime":1209.843,"body":"slash manager, if you're product owner."},{"startTime":1210.343,"endTime":1214.583,"body":"and your team together, they"},{"startTime":1210.343,"endTime":1214.583,"body":"have full visibility of the"},{"startTime":1214.583,"endTime":1216.563,"body":"P and L for their product."},{"startTime":1216.653,"endTime":1218.213,"body":"Mm-hmm  they know how much it costs."},{"startTime":1218.393,"endTime":1221.423,"body":"They know how much the salaries,"},{"startTime":1218.393,"endTime":1221.423,"body":"the entire team, basically"},{"startTime":1221.423,"endTime":1222.773,"body":"the, the run rate of your team."},{"startTime":1223.028,"endTime":1230.008,"body":"If you are not hiding from your team, how"},{"startTime":1223.028,"endTime":1230.008,"body":"much it costs to fund the team versus how"},{"startTime":1230.013,"endTime":1235.258,"body":"much revenue comes in from the product,"},{"startTime":1230.013,"endTime":1235.258,"body":"the team is creating and maintaining."},{"startTime":1235.978,"endTime":1238.678,"body":"If you are not hiding financial"},{"startTime":1235.978,"endTime":1238.678,"body":"information from your team,"},{"startTime":1239.188,"endTime":1241.918,"body":"then your team, when they make"},{"startTime":1239.188,"endTime":1241.918,"body":"decisions, what to implement."},{"startTime":1242.518,"endTime":1246.958,"body":"They can take financial information"},{"startTime":1242.518,"endTime":1246.958,"body":"into consideration and make"},{"startTime":1246.958,"endTime":1248.338,"body":"the, be the best decision."},{"startTime":1248.518,"endTime":1252.108,"body":"So where, where I was going with that"},{"startTime":1248.518,"endTime":1252.108,"body":"is this, this category we started with"},{"startTime":1252.108,"endTime":1255.858,"body":"was shield like, oh, I'm gonna use this"},{"startTime":1252.108,"endTime":1255.858,"body":"as a shield against accountability."},{"startTime":1256.008,"endTime":1258.798,"body":"Well, you can't really use it as"},{"startTime":1256.008,"endTime":1258.798,"body":"a shield against accountability."},{"startTime":1258.798,"endTime":1263.538,"body":"If you're saying  it costs a hundred"},{"startTime":1258.798,"endTime":1263.538,"body":"thousand dollars a month to fund to,"},{"startTime":1263.628,"endTime":1265.248,"body":"to, to basically keep everyone employ."},{"startTime":1265.748,"endTime":1267.608,"body":"And keep the servers running and whatever."},{"startTime":1267.908,"endTime":1272.438,"body":"So whatever you guys do, if it,"},{"startTime":1267.908,"endTime":1272.438,"body":"you, that was a, that was a Jersey."},{"startTime":1272.438,"endTime":1275.588,"body":"You guys use guys, whatever"},{"startTime":1272.438,"endTime":1275.588,"body":"use guys, whatever use guys"},{"startTime":1275.588,"endTime":1277.598,"body":"do that was that inclusive."},{"startTime":1277.598,"endTime":1279.308,"body":"You use guys, whatever you use guys do."},{"startTime":1279.658,"endTime":1282.148,"body":"it's gotta be above this amount per month."},{"startTime":1282.298,"endTime":1282.538,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":1282.598,"endTime":1287.098,"body":"So you you've kind of delegated"},{"startTime":1282.598,"endTime":1287.098,"body":"that to the team to say, Hey,"},{"startTime":1287.158,"endTime":1289.768,"body":"bring me more revenue than this."},{"startTime":1290.233,"endTime":1290.653,"body":"Per month."},{"startTime":1290.653,"endTime":1294.973,"body":"And assuming that the whole team is"},{"startTime":1290.653,"endTime":1294.973,"body":"included and involved in talking to"},{"startTime":1294.973,"endTime":1299.133,"body":"customers in drumming up business,"},{"startTime":1294.973,"endTime":1299.133,"body":"in reaching out and in trying"},{"startTime":1299.133,"endTime":1304.013,"body":"to , make, make the number of what it"},{"startTime":1299.133,"endTime":1304.013,"body":"costs to fund to, to run the product"},{"startTime":1304.223,"endTime":1308.093,"body":"versus what the product brings in"},{"startTime":1304.223,"endTime":1308.093,"body":"to, to, to drive that number apart."},{"startTime":1308.193,"endTime":1308.413,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":1308.858,"endTime":1310.148,"body":"Not in a negative way."},{"startTime":1310.388,"endTime":1312.638,"body":"mm-hmm  to drive that number to apart."},{"startTime":1312.968,"endTime":1316.988,"body":"If the whole team is involved in that,"},{"startTime":1312.968,"endTime":1316.988,"body":"like your business development, just"},{"startTime":1317.288,"endTime":1320.888,"body":"you you've you've went from business"},{"startTime":1317.288,"endTime":1320.888,"body":"development, being all, one person's"},{"startTime":1320.893,"endTime":1324.968,"body":"responsibility to business development,"},{"startTime":1320.893,"endTime":1324.968,"body":"being everyone's responsibility."},{"startTime":1325.118,"endTime":1328.488,"body":"I don't see why you would try to"},{"startTime":1325.118,"endTime":1328.488,"body":"hide that unless you were like  I"},{"startTime":1328.488,"endTime":1330.968,"body":"don't see a lot of good reasons."},{"startTime":1331.688,"endTime":1332.978,"body":"To hide all those numbers"},{"startTime":1333.498,"endTime":1336.328,"body":"so, I mean, what you"},{"startTime":1333.498,"endTime":1336.328,"body":"described was transparency."},{"startTime":1336.798,"endTime":1337.188,"body":"Hello?"},{"startTime":1337.218,"endTime":1337.368,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1337.368,"endTime":1338.008,"body":"One of the pillars."},{"startTime":1338.118,"endTime":1338.238,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1338.298,"endTime":1343.878,"body":"So we should in, in my mind or,"},{"startTime":1338.298,"endTime":1343.878,"body":"and in, from an agile or from a"},{"startTime":1343.878,"endTime":1345.858,"body":"scrum pillar mm-hmm  we should."},{"startTime":1346.713,"endTime":1348.873,"body":"Providing complete and utter transparency."},{"startTime":1348.873,"endTime":1354.783,"body":"Now, what I imagine that will do is all"},{"startTime":1348.873,"endTime":1354.783,"body":"of a sudden it takes this kind of with"},{"startTime":1354.783,"endTime":1359.253,"body":"them, it deflates the, with them mentality"},{"startTime":1354.783,"endTime":1359.253,"body":"that what's in, it, what's in it for me."},{"startTime":1359.283,"endTime":1359.613,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1359.618,"endTime":1361.383,"body":"So all of a sudden you're going like, Hey."},{"startTime":1361.898,"endTime":1366.128,"body":"Yeah, I wanna get what's in it for me,"},{"startTime":1361.898,"endTime":1366.128,"body":"it's important that I, that, that I get"},{"startTime":1366.128,"endTime":1368.198,"body":"my bonus or that I get paid and all those."},{"startTime":1368.558,"endTime":1368.618,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1368.618,"endTime":1371.708,"body":"But all of a sudden, and, and"},{"startTime":1368.618,"endTime":1371.708,"body":"particularly if in, if you were in"},{"startTime":1371.708,"endTime":1376.798,"body":"a team in which you have developed"},{"startTime":1371.708,"endTime":1376.798,"body":"relationships trust, and you are"},{"startTime":1376.798,"endTime":1383.068,"body":"motivated, you are all in line with the,"},{"startTime":1376.798,"endTime":1383.068,"body":"you know the vision and the strategy,"},{"startTime":1383.068,"endTime":1385.678,"body":"and you are embracing it as a team."},{"startTime":1385.683,"endTime":1387.243,"body":"Mm-hmm,  it becomes your baby."},{"startTime":1387.508,"endTime":1388.318,"body":"even more."},{"startTime":1388.318,"endTime":1391.078,"body":"So you become more accountable as a team."},{"startTime":1391.078,"endTime":1396.458,"body":"If you are aware that, Hey, you know"},{"startTime":1391.078,"endTime":1396.458,"body":"what, we have to keep the lights on so"},{"startTime":1396.458,"endTime":1401.598,"body":"transparency actually then fosters trust."},{"startTime":1402.018,"endTime":1410.418,"body":"And it also, it, it fosters additional"},{"startTime":1402.018,"endTime":1410.418,"body":"innovation keeping in mind the"},{"startTime":1410.418,"endTime":1413.688,"body":"minimal that we need to accomplish."},{"startTime":1414.568,"endTime":1416.458,"body":"I've been at one company, they"},{"startTime":1414.568,"endTime":1416.458,"body":"called it, keep the lights on."},{"startTime":1416.458,"endTime":1417.838,"body":"So yeah, this is, yeah."},{"startTime":1417.838,"endTime":1421.948,"body":"These are the things that we have to do"},{"startTime":1417.838,"endTime":1421.948,"body":"no matter what to keep the lights on."},{"startTime":1422.038,"endTime":1422.128,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1422.368,"endTime":1422.728,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1422.848,"endTime":1427.048,"body":"So these things need to be accounted"},{"startTime":1422.848,"endTime":1427.048,"body":"for it's the over and above that we"},{"startTime":1427.048,"endTime":1430.888,"body":"need to work towards mm-hmm  so if we"},{"startTime":1427.048,"endTime":1430.888,"body":"have a team that has an understanding,"},{"startTime":1430.888,"endTime":1433.768,"body":"even if it's minimally, so, I"},{"startTime":1430.888,"endTime":1433.768,"body":"mean, they don't have to get into"},{"startTime":1433.768,"endTime":1435.928,"body":"minutiae and the details of all that."},{"startTime":1436.383,"endTime":1439.173,"body":"But all of a sudden we have"},{"startTime":1436.383,"endTime":1439.173,"body":"somebody if, and, and they are"},{"startTime":1439.203,"endTime":1440.643,"body":"they're onboard with our vision."},{"startTime":1440.973,"endTime":1445.773,"body":"They, they have an understanding and, and,"},{"startTime":1440.973,"endTime":1445.773,"body":"and they're dedicated to this as a team."},{"startTime":1446.563,"endTime":1451.183,"body":"now to your point, they're going"},{"startTime":1446.563,"endTime":1451.183,"body":"like, well, we need to surpass that."},{"startTime":1451.243,"endTime":1451.393,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1451.603,"endTime":1454.783,"body":"You know, the minimum we need"},{"startTime":1451.603,"endTime":1454.783,"body":"to surpass the baseline because"},{"startTime":1454.783,"endTime":1457.273,"body":"we have an understanding of what"},{"startTime":1454.783,"endTime":1457.273,"body":"that is, keep the lights on."},{"startTime":1457.303,"endTime":1457.393,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1457.423,"endTime":1459.253,"body":"And we need to go above and beyond that."},{"startTime":1459.253,"endTime":1460.003,"body":"How do we do that?"},{"startTime":1460.003,"endTime":1464.638,"body":"It also helps when we're talking about"},{"startTime":1460.003,"endTime":1464.638,"body":"prioritization, sprint prioritization,"},{"startTime":1464.638,"endTime":1466.098,"body":"mm-hmm . If they have an understanding of."},{"startTime":1466.983,"endTime":1470.253,"body":"That really does help with the"},{"startTime":1466.983,"endTime":1470.253,"body":"prioritization of a sprint and how we"},{"startTime":1470.253,"endTime":1472.673,"body":"might pull things in and get things done."},{"startTime":1472.703,"endTime":1473.063,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1473.068,"endTime":1473.213,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1473.573,"endTime":1479.483,"body":"Like going back to the previous category"},{"startTime":1473.573,"endTime":1479.483,"body":"of unearned autonomy, like you haven't"},{"startTime":1479.488,"endTime":1483.553,"body":"earned the ability to stand alone"},{"startTime":1479.488,"endTime":1483.553,"body":", prioritization is a great topic of that."},{"startTime":1483.613,"endTime":1488.143,"body":"Like once you do your prioritization"},{"startTime":1483.613,"endTime":1488.143,"body":"and you say, Hey, we could do this,"},{"startTime":1488.263,"endTime":1492.163,"body":"we could do this, but I think this"},{"startTime":1488.263,"endTime":1492.163,"body":"is the majority to, to, to bring"},{"startTime":1492.163,"endTime":1493.853,"body":"those people into that conversation.."},{"startTime":1494.668,"endTime":1496.678,"body":"To say, Hey, this is what we decided."},{"startTime":1496.678,"endTime":1497.908,"body":"What do you think about that?"},{"startTime":1498.098,"endTime":1500.138,"body":"I do this a lot in backlog refinements."},{"startTime":1500.138,"endTime":1504.248,"body":"I invite a lot of people to backlog"},{"startTime":1500.138,"endTime":1504.248,"body":"refinements and be people that are not"},{"startTime":1504.248,"endTime":1508.958,"body":"necessarily on the team mm-hmm  to backlog"},{"startTime":1504.248,"endTime":1508.958,"body":"refinements because backlog refinement"},{"startTime":1508.978,"endTime":1511.003,"body":"for me is where prioritization happens."},{"startTime":1511.053,"endTime":1515.143,"body":"And also backlog refinement for me is"},{"startTime":1511.053,"endTime":1515.143,"body":"where the team has a chance to dig in"},{"startTime":1515.143,"endTime":1519.643,"body":"or not to a lower level to be like, Hey,"},{"startTime":1515.143,"endTime":1519.643,"body":"do we really understand X, Y, Z, right."},{"startTime":1520.153,"endTime":1522.953,"body":"X, Y, Z, for those"},{"startTime":1520.153,"endTime":1522.953,"body":"listeners over the pond."},{"startTime":1523.043,"endTime":1526.793,"body":"Hey, uh it's but usually at"},{"startTime":1523.043,"endTime":1526.793,"body":"back lower prime, we'll get."},{"startTime":1527.498,"endTime":1531.698,"body":"Way deeper than a lot of people"},{"startTime":1527.498,"endTime":1531.698,"body":"want to get in to the discussion."},{"startTime":1532.328,"endTime":1533.498,"body":"And that like, that's fine."},{"startTime":1533.498,"endTime":1537.728,"body":"That that's part of why I bring people"},{"startTime":1533.498,"endTime":1537.728,"body":"to backlog, like to say, Hey, we're"},{"startTime":1537.728,"endTime":1538.808,"body":"working on all these other things."},{"startTime":1538.928,"endTime":1542.148,"body":"Plus plus usually if you're a"},{"startTime":1538.928,"endTime":1542.148,"body":"product person that a different"},{"startTime":1542.148,"endTime":1544.698,"body":"initiatives in the organization"},{"startTime":1542.148,"endTime":1544.698,"body":"are sponsored by different people."},{"startTime":1544.908,"endTime":1548.028,"body":"So if you can bring in the sponsors"},{"startTime":1544.908,"endTime":1548.028,"body":"for different things, you can"},{"startTime":1548.028,"endTime":1550.128,"body":"let them discuss it between."},{"startTime":1550.713,"endTime":1553.443,"body":"Each other, and like, at, at that"},{"startTime":1550.713,"endTime":1553.443,"body":"point you're just facilitator."},{"startTime":1553.448,"endTime":1554.403,"body":"You're just a moderator."},{"startTime":1554.673,"endTime":1554.893,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1555.033,"endTime":1557.693,"body":"You know, or, or, and they are"},{"startTime":1555.033,"endTime":1557.693,"body":"refer, prioritizing themselves."},{"startTime":1558.293,"endTime":1559.373,"body":"a referee sometimes."},{"startTime":1559.863,"endTime":1560.693,"body":"Well, it depends."},{"startTime":1560.733,"endTime":1563.463,"body":"I mean, if you have something that like,"},{"startTime":1560.733,"endTime":1563.463,"body":"I've been in a lot of organizations"},{"startTime":1563.468,"endTime":1568.333,"body":"where you have CEO level discussions of"},{"startTime":1563.468,"endTime":1568.333,"body":"like, we gotta have this by this date"},{"startTime":1568.338,"endTime":1571.933,"body":"mm-hmm  and like that that's it that's"},{"startTime":1568.338,"endTime":1571.933,"body":"it mm-hmm  the decision has been made."},{"startTime":1572.113,"endTime":1573.853,"body":"Mm-hmm , there's not really lot to this."},{"startTime":1573.913,"endTime":1576.463,"body":"There's not really a lot"},{"startTime":1573.913,"endTime":1576.463,"body":"to discuss after that."},{"startTime":1576.493,"endTime":1578.648,"body":"Mm-hmm  so bring those people."},{"startTime":1579.323,"endTime":1582.268,"body":"To your decision process and then yeah."},{"startTime":1582.268,"endTime":1584.638,"body":"You know, Hey, you're done well."},{"startTime":1584.728,"endTime":1588.508,"body":"No, what, what I would say is what"},{"startTime":1584.728,"endTime":1588.508,"body":"might be enlightening for that CEO"},{"startTime":1588.988,"endTime":1591.283,"body":"is to go like, yeah, CEO wants this."},{"startTime":1591.918,"endTime":1595.608,"body":"Bring them into the refinement session"},{"startTime":1591.918,"endTime":1595.608,"body":"or even the planning, if, if you're"},{"startTime":1595.668,"endTime":1599.958,"body":"at that point and all of a sudden"},{"startTime":1595.668,"endTime":1599.958,"body":"you realize, yeah, you want this,"},{"startTime":1599.958,"endTime":1603.978,"body":"but we can't get this until we get"},{"startTime":1599.958,"endTime":1603.978,"body":"this, this, and this done what you're"},{"startTime":1603.978,"endTime":1608.448,"body":"asking, requires us to prioritize these"},{"startTime":1603.978,"endTime":1608.448,"body":"other things before it can happen."},{"startTime":1608.498,"endTime":1613.158,"body":"so it does help people to align"},{"startTime":1608.498,"endTime":1613.158,"body":"and empathize with other P you"},{"startTime":1613.158,"endTime":1614.598,"body":"know, parts of the organization."},{"startTime":1615.318,"endTime":1619.018,"body":"The other arguing point against"},{"startTime":1615.318,"endTime":1619.018,"body":"psychological safety will be"},{"startTime":1619.228,"endTime":1621.598,"body":"well, you're driving consensus."},{"startTime":1621.893,"endTime":1625.063,"body":"By a committee or the arguing"},{"startTime":1621.893,"endTime":1625.063,"body":"point against us will be you"},{"startTime":1625.063,"endTime":1626.353,"body":"know, oh, we can move faster."},{"startTime":1626.358,"endTime":1629.983,"body":"If, if we just go to our leader and"},{"startTime":1626.358,"endTime":1629.983,"body":"ask him, should we do X or Y or Z"},{"startTime":1629.983,"endTime":1632.293,"body":"or whatever, and he'll just pick"},{"startTime":1629.983,"endTime":1632.293,"body":"something and that'll be the end of it."},{"startTime":1632.423,"endTime":1636.403,"body":"we can make decisions much faster"},{"startTime":1632.423,"endTime":1636.403,"body":"that, that, that would that like,"},{"startTime":1636.403,"endTime":1639.293,"body":"that's, that's where I was going when,"},{"startTime":1636.403,"endTime":1639.293,"body":"when I was listening to that point."},{"startTime":1639.713,"endTime":1640.163,"body":"Gotcha."},{"startTime":1640.663,"endTime":1643.543,"body":"Just to back up just a little bit."},{"startTime":1643.573,"endTime":1649.383,"body":"So psychological safety I would like"},{"startTime":1643.573,"endTime":1649.383,"body":"to hear your perception or definition"},{"startTime":1649.383,"endTime":1654.003,"body":"of that, because what I'm hearing"},{"startTime":1649.383,"endTime":1654.003,"body":"now might be aligning might not"},{"startTime":1654.008,"endTime":1655.413,"body":"align a hundred percent with mine."},{"startTime":1655.463,"endTime":1659.873,"body":"So when you think of psychological safety,"},{"startTime":1655.463,"endTime":1659.873,"body":"it sounded like from your description"},{"startTime":1659.873,"endTime":1663.263,"body":"right there, it was basically the"},{"startTime":1659.873,"endTime":1663.263,"body":"ability to make decisions on your own"},{"startTime":1663.263,"endTime":1666.083,"body":"versus asking leadership for permission."},{"startTime":1666.583,"endTime":1667.003,"body":"Was it."},{"startTime":1667.423,"endTime":1670.123,"body":"So I would like to hear your"},{"startTime":1667.423,"endTime":1670.123,"body":"definition of what that means to you."},{"startTime":1670.183,"endTime":1671.953,"body":"What does psychological"},{"startTime":1670.183,"endTime":1671.953,"body":"safety mean to you?"},{"startTime":1672.043,"endTime":1672.733,"body":"Not really."},{"startTime":1672.923,"endTime":1677.243,"body":"I, I don't like I like I'm"},{"startTime":1672.923,"endTime":1677.243,"body":"terrible at demonstrating the other"},{"startTime":1677.243,"endTime":1678.713,"body":"side of the argument sometimes."},{"startTime":1678.713,"endTime":1680.783,"body":"Like, this is, this would"},{"startTime":1678.713,"endTime":1680.783,"body":"be one of the right, right."},{"startTime":1680.813,"endTime":1681.563,"body":"No, and that's terrible."},{"startTime":1682.083,"endTime":1687.173,"body":"The, the, the argument against in"},{"startTime":1682.083,"endTime":1687.173,"body":"this perspective would be, if I'm"},{"startTime":1687.173,"endTime":1692.933,"body":"empowering my teams with the ability,"},{"startTime":1687.173,"endTime":1692.933,"body":"my teams, teams being, they each"},{"startTime":1692.933,"endTime":1694.973,"body":"have a product representative, right."},{"startTime":1695.903,"endTime":1700.193,"body":"Who's carrying out if I'm the CEO,"},{"startTime":1695.903,"endTime":1700.193,"body":"or even like a director of an entire"},{"startTime":1700.193,"endTime":1703.853,"body":"business unit and I have five teams"},{"startTime":1700.193,"endTime":1703.853,"body":"under me, five, seven teams, whatever."},{"startTime":1704.753,"endTime":1705.863,"body":"I need to go to those teams."},{"startTime":1705.863,"endTime":1708.713,"body":"I need like, I'll go to my"},{"startTime":1705.863,"endTime":1708.713,"body":"product management meeting."},{"startTime":1709.073,"endTime":1713.303,"body":"With my five product managers"},{"startTime":1709.073,"endTime":1713.303,"body":"and maybe their technical reps"},{"startTime":1713.303,"endTime":1714.293,"body":"for all their team or whatever."},{"startTime":1714.383,"endTime":1718.213,"body":"And I'll say, Hey we, we need"},{"startTime":1714.383,"endTime":1718.213,"body":"to do this new functionality."},{"startTime":1718.343,"endTime":1721.578,"body":"We need to be pressing in this"},{"startTime":1718.343,"endTime":1721.578,"body":"direction or whatever make it happen."},{"startTime":1721.578,"endTime":1722.718,"body":"And then they'll ask me questions."},{"startTime":1722.718,"endTime":1723.528,"body":"They'll do experiments."},{"startTime":1723.533,"endTime":1727.388,"body":"They'll they'll they'll pick"},{"startTime":1723.533,"endTime":1727.388,"body":"apart my dissertation  from"},{"startTime":1727.388,"endTime":1728.438,"body":"the, from the product meeting."},{"startTime":1728.738,"endTime":1733.658,"body":"So, so the, so for, for me in a meeting"},{"startTime":1728.738,"endTime":1733.658,"body":"like that, the definition of psychological"},{"startTime":1733.658,"endTime":1736.318,"body":"safety is they are number one."},{"startTime":1736.318,"endTime":1739.948,"body":"They're willing to ask"},{"startTime":1736.318,"endTime":1739.948,"body":"questions in that environment."},{"startTime":1740.608,"endTime":1743.198,"body":"And number two, I guess,"},{"startTime":1740.608,"endTime":1743.198,"body":"is different tiers."},{"startTime":1743.198,"endTime":1745.808,"body":"Number one, they're even willing,"},{"startTime":1743.198,"endTime":1745.808,"body":"like I've been in organizations"},{"startTime":1745.808,"endTime":1747.288,"body":"where all the teams are contractors."},{"startTime":1747.833,"endTime":1749.503,"body":"Like, Hey, you guys need to do this."},{"startTime":1749.503,"endTime":1750.643,"body":"And then nobody says anything."},{"startTime":1751.063,"endTime":1755.533,"body":"And then offline, they quietly figure out"},{"startTime":1751.063,"endTime":1755.533,"body":"and fail and do whatever on their own."},{"startTime":1756.073,"endTime":1759.283,"body":"The, the better organizations in"},{"startTime":1756.073,"endTime":1759.283,"body":"that meeting, the, the product,"},{"startTime":1759.283,"endTime":1763.583,"body":"people with their teams will ask"},{"startTime":1759.283,"endTime":1763.583,"body":"questions and try to figure out what"},{"startTime":1763.583,"endTime":1765.873,"body":"they can do to prove or disprove my."},{"startTime":1766.373,"endTime":1768.953,"body":"Dictate my, my requests, my demand."},{"startTime":1769.103,"endTime":1769.943,"body":"It could be anything."},{"startTime":1770.103,"endTime":1774.723,"body":"And then they will question what makes"},{"startTime":1770.103,"endTime":1774.723,"body":"you think that they'll ask for the why"},{"startTime":1774.963,"endTime":1779.073,"body":"from me the leader, and then they'll"},{"startTime":1774.963,"endTime":1779.073,"body":"go figure out what they can do to"},{"startTime":1779.078,"endTime":1781.323,"body":"prove or disprove pieces of the why."},{"startTime":1781.413,"endTime":1783.883,"body":"And then turn around and implement"},{"startTime":1781.413,"endTime":1783.883,"body":"that with their own teams."},{"startTime":1783.913,"endTime":1786.673,"body":"They'll they will run with my vision."},{"startTime":1786.823,"endTime":1789.403,"body":"I think that this is"},{"startTime":1786.823,"endTime":1789.403,"body":"important to the market."},{"startTime":1789.873,"endTime":1793.653,"body":"They will take that and pick it"},{"startTime":1789.873,"endTime":1793.653,"body":"apart and distribute it between"},{"startTime":1793.653,"endTime":1795.093,"body":"the teams and they'll run with it."},{"startTime":1795.093,"endTime":1795.933,"body":"Mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":1795.963,"endTime":1799.683,"body":"They'll take my vision, break it"},{"startTime":1795.963,"endTime":1799.683,"body":"up into goals between teams and"},{"startTime":1799.688,"endTime":1803.013,"body":"try to prove it, disprove it, and"},{"startTime":1799.688,"endTime":1803.013,"body":"depending on what they find, they'll"},{"startTime":1803.018,"endTime":1804.053,"body":"run with it and implement it."},{"startTime":1804.768,"endTime":1804.948,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1805.128,"endTime":1810.348,"body":", psychological safety is tiers in my"},{"startTime":1805.128,"endTime":1810.348,"body":"opinion not to cut the end of the"},{"startTime":1810.348,"endTime":1814.678,"body":"podcast, but tier one is, do you even"},{"startTime":1810.348,"endTime":1814.678,"body":"feel safe to question what I'm asking you?"},{"startTime":1815.178,"endTime":1818.778,"body":"I, I guess we were talking about product"},{"startTime":1815.178,"endTime":1818.778,"body":"psychological safety at this point."},{"startTime":1818.928,"endTime":1821.148,"body":"There's a whole nother side"},{"startTime":1818.928,"endTime":1821.148,"body":"of psychological safety."},{"startTime":1821.178,"endTime":1823.818,"body":"This team related that"},{"startTime":1821.178,"endTime":1823.818,"body":"we're not even getting into."},{"startTime":1823.818,"endTime":1827.748,"body":"I feel that there could be a whole nother"},{"startTime":1823.818,"endTime":1827.748,"body":"podcast could cut right here and separate."},{"startTime":1827.998,"endTime":1831.298,"body":"So we're talking about"},{"startTime":1827.998,"endTime":1831.298,"body":"psychological safety from my"},{"startTime":1831.298,"endTime":1834.028,"body":"experience starts at leadership."},{"startTime":1834.418,"endTime":1838.558,"body":"So leadership's ability"},{"startTime":1834.418,"endTime":1838.558,"body":"to not micromanage."},{"startTime":1838.678,"endTime":1838.738,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1839.008,"endTime":1842.048,"body":"To be able to say I have a vision."},{"startTime":1842.903,"endTime":1848.348,"body":"and more importantly, and, and rather than"},{"startTime":1842.903,"endTime":1848.348,"body":"coming into a, a meeting or making a, a"},{"startTime":1848.348,"endTime":1853.888,"body":"demand, use the word demand mm-hmm . But"},{"startTime":1848.348,"endTime":1853.888,"body":"instead of that, describing the problem"},{"startTime":1853.888,"endTime":1856.018,"body":"that we're trying to solve, right."},{"startTime":1856.198,"endTime":1857.878,"body":"So I'm not gonna make a demand of you."},{"startTime":1857.968,"endTime":1859.348,"body":"I'm gonna describe, okay."},{"startTime":1859.348,"endTime":1861.088,"body":"Here's the problem we're trying to."},{"startTime":1861.588,"endTime":1865.188,"body":"You know, here's the, what mm-hmm"},{"startTime":1861.588,"endTime":1865.188,"body":"or, and the, and, and, or the why,"},{"startTime":1865.188,"endTime":1868.788,"body":"and maybe, maybe the, what we don't"},{"startTime":1865.188,"endTime":1868.788,"body":"the, what they know and the why is"},{"startTime":1868.788,"endTime":1872.748,"body":"something that the PO or product"},{"startTime":1868.788,"endTime":1872.748,"body":"person needs to needs to determine."},{"startTime":1872.778,"endTime":1873.018,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1873.228,"endTime":1873.318,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1873.323,"endTime":1877.848,"body":"So, so I would say that but psychological"},{"startTime":1873.323,"endTime":1877.848,"body":"safety from my perspective, is"},{"startTime":1878.368,"endTime":1883.698,"body":"it, it is that, that leadership"},{"startTime":1878.368,"endTime":1883.698,"body":"that allows teams and individuals"},{"startTime":1883.968,"endTime":1888.078,"body":"to be comfortable enough to your"},{"startTime":1883.968,"endTime":1888.078,"body":"point, to even ask a question yeah."},{"startTime":1888.348,"endTime":1890.238,"body":"To maybe disagree."},{"startTime":1890.478,"endTime":1890.538,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1890.538,"endTime":1894.738,"body":"Or have a discussion or be brave"},{"startTime":1890.538,"endTime":1894.738,"body":"enough to come up and say, Hey,"},{"startTime":1894.743,"endTime":1896.058,"body":"have we thought about it this way?"},{"startTime":1896.058,"endTime":1900.998,"body":"So the point of you know, there's"},{"startTime":1896.058,"endTime":1900.998,"body":"been obviously studies Aristotle"},{"startTime":1901.003,"endTime":1902.398,"body":"being the, probably the, the."},{"startTime":1903.023,"endTime":1907.583,"body":"Famous Google's project Aristotle, but"},{"startTime":1903.023,"endTime":1907.583,"body":"where psychological safety was determined"},{"startTime":1907.583,"endTime":1913.373,"body":"to be the number one determination"},{"startTime":1907.583,"endTime":1913.373,"body":"for an effective team and what that"},{"startTime":1913.473,"endTime":1915.423,"body":"and, and you can go in and Google it."},{"startTime":1915.503,"endTime":1919.173,"body":"I forget the name of it, where they"},{"startTime":1915.503,"endTime":1919.173,"body":"have all of their basically white"},{"startTime":1919.173,"endTime":1920.823,"body":"paper and documentation that they have."},{"startTime":1920.823,"endTime":1921.573,"body":"I forget the name of it."},{"startTime":1921.673,"endTime":1922.753,"body":"Yeah, you can Google about it."},{"startTime":1922.758,"endTime":1923.253,"body":"Yeah, Google it."},{"startTime":1923.513,"endTime":1926.253,"body":"but they they determined"},{"startTime":1923.513,"endTime":1926.253,"body":"that psychological safety"},{"startTime":1926.258,"endTime":1933.783,"body":"was the number one factor in,"},{"startTime":1926.258,"endTime":1933.783,"body":"successful and effective teams."},{"startTime":1934.053,"endTime":1938.373,"body":"Now, their initial hypothesis was"},{"startTime":1934.053,"endTime":1938.373,"body":"the most effective team was to match"},{"startTime":1938.463,"endTime":1945.853,"body":"up the appropriate personalities"},{"startTime":1938.463,"endTime":1945.853,"body":"with the appropriate level of"},{"startTime":1945.933,"endTime":1950.303,"body":"maybe  education or knowledge base."},{"startTime":1950.303,"endTime":1950.363,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1950.393,"endTime":1951.143,"body":"Or all that."},{"startTime":1951.383,"endTime":1955.013,"body":"They ended up finding that none of that"},{"startTime":1951.383,"endTime":1955.013,"body":"was true, that psychological safety"},{"startTime":1955.523,"endTime":1960.093,"body":"crossing across multiple you know,"},{"startTime":1955.523,"endTime":1960.093,"body":"levels of experience and all that."},{"startTime":1960.483,"endTime":1962.253,"body":"But the psychological safety is what."},{"startTime":1963.243,"endTime":1968.163,"body":"Allow and fostered innovation because"},{"startTime":1963.243,"endTime":1968.163,"body":"you come in sometimes with actually"},{"startTime":1968.163,"endTime":1972.363,"body":"very little experience, but the right"},{"startTime":1968.163,"endTime":1972.363,"body":"question, because you're not biased"},{"startTime":1972.368,"endTime":1975.213,"body":"because of this long term experience."},{"startTime":1975.213,"endTime":1980.013,"body":"So, but if you're in a psychologically"},{"startTime":1975.213,"endTime":1980.013,"body":"safe team, you can go, that doesn't"},{"startTime":1980.013,"endTime":1983.233,"body":"make sense to me, or what have you"},{"startTime":1980.013,"endTime":1983.233,"body":"ever thought of it from this way?"},{"startTime":1983.713,"endTime":1987.063,"body":"And that starts with the leadership who."},{"startTime":1987.498,"endTime":1994.248,"body":"Allows that to happen with the knowledge"},{"startTime":1987.498,"endTime":1994.248,"body":"that in a new team they're going to,"},{"startTime":1994.488,"endTime":1999.228,"body":"that it's going to slow them down"},{"startTime":1994.488,"endTime":1999.228,"body":"initially that it's actually going to"},{"startTime":1999.258,"endTime":2005.948,"body":"impede their progress, but as they become"},{"startTime":1999.258,"endTime":2005.948,"body":"more and more stable as a team, and"},{"startTime":2005.948,"endTime":2012.488,"body":"that psychological safety is fostered"},{"startTime":2005.948,"endTime":2012.488,"body":"and more and more trust is developed."},{"startTime":2012.938,"endTime":2018.668,"body":"Then people really start to learn their"},{"startTime":2012.938,"endTime":2018.668,"body":"strengths and their weaknesses, both"},{"startTime":2018.998,"endTime":2024.608,"body":"inwardly and within the team mm-hmm"},{"startTime":2018.998,"endTime":2024.608,"body":"and then they start pulling and, and"},{"startTime":2024.608,"endTime":2029.888,"body":"pushing to augment the team in the"},{"startTime":2024.608,"endTime":2029.888,"body":"most appropriate and effective manners."},{"startTime":2030.138,"endTime":2033.348,"body":"we were talking about decision"},{"startTime":2030.138,"endTime":2033.348,"body":"making via consensus now."},{"startTime":2033.348,"endTime":2036.948,"body":"Like, oh, well I don't, I don't"},{"startTime":2033.348,"endTime":2036.948,"body":"want to have decision making via"},{"startTime":2036.948,"endTime":2039.318,"body":"consensus because somehow that's bad."},{"startTime":2039.378,"endTime":2040.488,"body":"I mean, is it bad?"},{"startTime":2040.818,"endTime":2045.438,"body":"Like I, I feel that the, the decision"},{"startTime":2040.818,"endTime":2045.438,"body":"making via consensus is it bad?"},{"startTime":2045.468,"endTime":2046.908,"body":"Like, or, or."},{"startTime":2047.718,"endTime":2051.133,"body":"Is that, not the question, like, it"},{"startTime":2047.718,"endTime":2051.133,"body":"doesn't matter how many people you have"},{"startTime":2051.133,"endTime":2053.563,"body":"in the room with coming to your consensus."},{"startTime":2053.873,"endTime":2057.803,"body":"Even if people are like looking at"},{"startTime":2053.873,"endTime":2057.803,"body":"the evidence and voting bases based"},{"startTime":2057.803,"endTime":2061.878,"body":"off of the evidence, shouldn't taking"},{"startTime":2057.803,"endTime":2061.878,"body":"it an account, the evidence be more"},{"startTime":2061.878,"endTime":2065.678,"body":"important than worrying about , oh,"},{"startTime":2061.878,"endTime":2065.678,"body":"well, it's more important to have"},{"startTime":2065.678,"endTime":2070.268,"body":"one dedicated decision maker, so you"},{"startTime":2065.678,"endTime":2070.268,"body":"can, so we can make quick decisions."},{"startTime":2070.668,"endTime":2074.958,"body":"That's the point here is, is I'm"},{"startTime":2070.668,"endTime":2074.958,"body":"worried about us making quick"},{"startTime":2074.958,"endTime":2079.368,"body":"decisions versus getting stuck and"},{"startTime":2074.958,"endTime":2079.368,"body":"bogged down and  the whole analysis"},{"startTime":2079.368,"endTime":2083.398,"body":"paralysis paradigm and getting stuck."},{"startTime":2083.448,"endTime":2085.243,"body":"That's the underlying concern here."},{"startTime":2085.753,"endTime":2089.454,"body":"I think if we have, so number one,"},{"startTime":2085.753,"endTime":2089.454,"body":"the, the product, I mean, if we."},{"startTime":2090.133,"endTime":2092.113,"body":"If we have an agile organization."},{"startTime":2092.113,"endTime":2095.863,"body":"So the product person is going to be"},{"startTime":2092.113,"endTime":2095.863,"body":"the one that make, that is ultimately"},{"startTime":2095.863,"endTime":2097.273,"body":"responsible for this decision."},{"startTime":2097.363,"endTime":2100.613,"body":"Mm-hmm , if they are practicing"},{"startTime":2097.363,"endTime":2100.613,"body":"transparency and adaptation"},{"startTime":2100.618,"endTime":2105.043,"body":"and inspection, then this"},{"startTime":2100.618,"endTime":2105.043,"body":"should be an iterative process."},{"startTime":2105.103,"endTime":2105.163,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2105.223,"endTime":2111.853,"body":"And not something that is made just in"},{"startTime":2105.223,"endTime":2111.853,"body":"one meeting in during during a sprint or"},{"startTime":2111.943,"endTime":2113.863,"body":"every month or something to that effect."},{"startTime":2114.663,"endTime":2114.883,"body":"So."},{"startTime":2115.323,"endTime":2119.193,"body":"This should be an ongoing"},{"startTime":2115.323,"endTime":2119.193,"body":"iterative process where"},{"startTime":2119.923,"endTime":2121.923,"body":"everyone on the team would be."},{"startTime":2122.773,"endTime":2128.873,"body":"getting and providing information,"},{"startTime":2122.773,"endTime":2128.873,"body":"along with, of course our, our, our"},{"startTime":2128.903,"endTime":2132.443,"body":"review, which we're getting that"},{"startTime":2128.903,"endTime":2132.443,"body":"feedback loop at the end of the"},{"startTime":2132.443,"endTime":2134.033,"body":"sprint, if we're, if we're doing scrum."},{"startTime":2134.033,"endTime":2134.093,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2134.213,"endTime":2134.663,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2134.693,"endTime":2134.843,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2135.243,"endTime":2139.203,"body":"so I don't think that it would"},{"startTime":2135.243,"endTime":2139.203,"body":"be, there would be consensus by"},{"startTime":2139.293,"endTime":2143.463,"body":"a majority, but not necessarily"},{"startTime":2139.293,"endTime":2143.463,"body":"what it, during like one meeting,"},{"startTime":2143.523,"endTime":2145.353,"body":"it would be over a period of time."},{"startTime":2145.413,"endTime":2145.563,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2145.953,"endTime":2146.313,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2146.313,"endTime":2148.653,"body":"Where we have you know,"},{"startTime":2146.313,"endTime":2148.653,"body":"a consistent feedback."},{"startTime":2149.178,"endTime":2149.388,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2149.598,"endTime":2157.038,"body":"So I think that, that you end up"},{"startTime":2149.598,"endTime":2157.038,"body":"with a person being able to make a"},{"startTime":2157.043,"endTime":2160.638,"body":"decisive decision based on consensus."},{"startTime":2160.818,"endTime":2163.548,"body":"Mm-hmm  consensus over a"},{"startTime":2160.818,"endTime":2163.548,"body":"period of time by maturity."},{"startTime":2163.553,"endTime":2163.598,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2163.998,"endTime":2164.388,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2164.388,"endTime":2168.648,"body":"Like I feel also like we've landed"},{"startTime":2164.388,"endTime":2168.648,"body":"on like the, the arguing point"},{"startTime":2169.158,"endTime":2172.338,"body":"against this one, which I'm, I'm not"},{"startTime":2169.158,"endTime":2172.338,"body":"doing a great job fighting for it."},{"startTime":2172.578,"endTime":2175.848,"body":"The arguing point against this"},{"startTime":2172.578,"endTime":2175.848,"body":"one is like the, the product"},{"startTime":2175.853,"endTime":2177.288,"body":"owner slash manager on the."},{"startTime":2177.978,"endTime":2182.268,"body":"Is the person that makes this decision,"},{"startTime":2177.978,"endTime":2182.268,"body":"this, this prioritization decision"},{"startTime":2182.418,"endTime":2186.018,"body":"mm-hmm . So if you're having difficulty"},{"startTime":2182.418,"endTime":2186.018,"body":"delegating, these big decisions to"},{"startTime":2186.023,"endTime":2189.708,"body":"your product, people on a team like you"},{"startTime":2186.023,"endTime":2189.708,"body":"kind of need to step back and kind of"},{"startTime":2189.713,"endTime":2191.428,"body":"figure out what you're really doing."},{"startTime":2191.958,"endTime":2195.078,"body":"I mean, you could be in some kind of"},{"startTime":2191.958,"endTime":2195.078,"body":"scaled organization where you have like a."},{"startTime":2195.798,"endTime":2199.998,"body":"Product person who does like your"},{"startTime":2195.798,"endTime":2199.998,"body":"product person could be like, well,"},{"startTime":2199.998,"endTime":2201.888,"body":"we, we did this and we did this."},{"startTime":2201.918,"endTime":2205.248,"body":"And, and the evidence leads us to believe"},{"startTime":2201.918,"endTime":2205.248,"body":"this is the next thing we should do."},{"startTime":2205.428,"endTime":2207.577,"body":"And you're chief product"},{"startTime":2205.428,"endTime":2207.577,"body":"person  could say like, all of"},{"startTime":2207.577,"endTime":2208.957,"body":"your evidence based decisions."},{"startTime":2209.377,"endTime":2210.757,"body":"I respect and understand."},{"startTime":2211.027,"endTime":2214.807,"body":"But I want you to do this next"},{"startTime":2211.027,"endTime":2214.807,"body":"mm-hmm  like, you can get that from"},{"startTime":2214.807,"endTime":2218.317,"body":"a CEO as well in a small like, oh,"},{"startTime":2214.807,"endTime":2218.317,"body":"and I could happen crash and burn."},{"startTime":2218.377,"endTime":2218.557,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2218.707,"endTime":2222.187,"body":"So as a good product"},{"startTime":2218.707,"endTime":2222.187,"body":"person, it would be my job."},{"startTime":2222.787,"endTime":2227.577,"body":"Uh ultimately it, it does come if"},{"startTime":2222.787,"endTime":2227.577,"body":"you have a hierarchy like that."},{"startTime":2227.667,"endTime":2227.787,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2228.087,"endTime":2231.547,"body":"Then you can be overpowered"},{"startTime":2228.087,"endTime":2231.547,"body":"as far as decision making."},{"startTime":2231.547,"endTime":2237.587,"body":"But if I am a good product person,"},{"startTime":2231.547,"endTime":2237.587,"body":"I should be able to present."},{"startTime":2238.087,"endTime":2241.567,"body":"Effectively lobby is what I was"},{"startTime":2238.087,"endTime":2241.567,"body":"gonna that's my term for it."},{"startTime":2241.567,"endTime":2241.807,"body":"Lobby."},{"startTime":2241.807,"endTime":2242.017,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2242.017,"endTime":2242.587,"body":"Lobby."},{"startTime":2242.627,"endTime":2243.547,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2243.597,"endTime":2247.977,"body":"With valid data to be"},{"startTime":2243.597,"endTime":2247.977,"body":"able to prove my point."},{"startTime":2247.977,"endTime":2248.217,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2249.117,"endTime":2254.377,"body":"And to be open-minded to hear"},{"startTime":2249.117,"endTime":2254.377,"body":", from the other, the other side."},{"startTime":2254.377,"endTime":2257.857,"body":"So just, so there, there, if you"},{"startTime":2254.377,"endTime":2257.857,"body":"have someone who's a portfolio"},{"startTime":2257.857,"endTime":2261.217,"body":"manager, they have a lot of"},{"startTime":2257.857,"endTime":2261.217,"body":"information that I am not privy to."},{"startTime":2261.277,"endTime":2265.747,"body":"Mm-hmm  so once we are collaborating"},{"startTime":2261.277,"endTime":2265.747,"body":"together, there may be some really good"},{"startTime":2265.747,"endTime":2268.117,"body":"reasons why we need to reprioritize."},{"startTime":2268.197,"endTime":2272.667,"body":"So, as long as we have transparency"},{"startTime":2268.197,"endTime":2272.667,"body":"and communication, then there's"},{"startTime":2272.667,"endTime":2275.157,"body":"real opportunity to align."},{"startTime":2275.397,"endTime":2275.817,"body":"I'm sold."},{"startTime":2275.997,"endTime":2276.957,"body":"Hey, sign me on."},{"startTime":2277.317,"endTime":2277.707,"body":"Okay."}]}