{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":4.161,"body":"this podcast is to cover the, , second"},{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":4.161,"body":"part in the series about how the scrum"},{"startTime":4.161,"endTime":8.209,"body":"master serves the product owner, and,,"},{"startTime":4.161,"endTime":8.209,"body":"the method we're gonna use for this is"},{"startTime":8.209,"endTime":11.971,"body":"we're gonna walk through each, factual"},{"startTime":8.209,"endTime":11.971,"body":"bullet point from the scrum guide."},{"startTime":12.447,"endTime":14.704,"body":"There are four bullet points"},{"startTime":12.447,"endTime":14.704,"body":"in the scrum guide, and, , I'm"},{"startTime":14.709,"endTime":15.423,"body":"gonna ask two  questions."},{"startTime":15.447,"endTime":17.39,"body":"I'm gonna ask,  for an example,."},{"startTime":17.742,"endTime":22.342,"body":"And then I'm gonna ask who does this"},{"startTime":17.742,"endTime":22.342,"body":"bullet point or the pieces of the bullet"},{"startTime":22.342,"endTime":26.542,"body":"point in the case where the bullet point"},{"startTime":22.342,"endTime":26.542,"body":"divides into several other subsections?"},{"startTime":26.78,"endTime":29.524,"body":", who does it when there is no scrum"},{"startTime":26.78,"endTime":29.524,"body":"master   in the organization?"},{"startTime":29.696,"endTime":33.048,"body":"Because there are some people on"},{"startTime":29.696,"endTime":33.048,"body":"the internet who, angrily protest"},{"startTime":33.248,"endTime":35.991,"body":"that a scrum master is not, a"},{"startTime":33.248,"endTime":35.991,"body":"fulltime position is not needed."},{"startTime":36.305,"endTime":38.867,"body":"So, , if you're a scrum master"},{"startTime":36.305,"endTime":38.867,"body":"and you have to deal with, these"},{"startTime":38.867,"endTime":40.353,"body":"people, this is the podcast for you."},{"startTime":40.829,"endTime":43.848,"body":"And if you haven't seen our"},{"startTime":40.829,"endTime":43.848,"body":"first podcast, go check it out."},{"startTime":43.848,"endTime":45.905,"body":"Or our third podcast, check that out too."},{"startTime":45.972,"endTime":49.853,"body":"Let's start with, , so the Scrum master"},{"startTime":45.972,"endTime":49.853,"body":"serves the product owner in several"},{"startTime":49.853,"endTime":54.863,"body":"ways, including, including the first"},{"startTime":49.853,"endTime":54.863,"body":"item, , helping find techniques for"},{"startTime":54.863,"endTime":60.863,"body":"effective product, gold definition"},{"startTime":54.863,"endTime":60.863,"body":"and product backlog management."},{"startTime":61.339,"endTime":62.824,"body":"That's a, that's a mouthful."},{"startTime":62.882,"endTime":64.453,"body":"That is, There's quite a lot there."},{"startTime":64.501,"endTime":67.939,"body":", so helping find techniques"},{"startTime":64.501,"endTime":67.939,"body":"for effective product, goal"},{"startTime":68.015,"endTime":69.501,"body":"definition, I think the focus."},{"startTime":69.977,"endTime":73.72,"body":"More on this now with the latest"},{"startTime":69.977,"endTime":73.72,"body":"scrum guide that encourages setting"},{"startTime":74.196,"endTime":76.253,"body":"goals, especially for the sprint."},{"startTime":76.282,"endTime":76.367,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":76.624,"endTime":79.853,"body":". And so people are thinking more"},{"startTime":76.624,"endTime":79.853,"body":"around goal orientation, right?"},{"startTime":79.858,"endTime":80.967,"body":"What are we trying to do?"},{"startTime":81.444,"endTime":84.101,"body":"techniques for effective"},{"startTime":81.444,"endTime":84.101,"body":"product goal definition."},{"startTime":84.577,"endTime":88.805,"body":"That kind of assumes that the, the"},{"startTime":84.577,"endTime":88.805,"body":"product side of the house isn't"},{"startTime":89.282,"endTime":91.529,"body":"proficient at outlining goals."},{"startTime":91.558,"endTime":91.872,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":91.929,"endTime":95.529,"body":"I haven't found traditionally that to be"},{"startTime":91.929,"endTime":95.529,"body":"necessarily a challenge, but I guess it"},{"startTime":95.529,"endTime":97.872,"body":"varies from organizational organization."},{"startTime":98.348,"endTime":102.167,"body":"how does this scrum master serve"},{"startTime":98.348,"endTime":102.167,"body":"the product owner in effective"},{"startTime":102.172,"endTime":103.596,"body":"product goal definition?"},{"startTime":103.682,"endTime":105.767,"body":"And how does this scrum"},{"startTime":103.682,"endTime":105.767,"body":"master serve product owner in,"},{"startTime":106.244,"endTime":108.015,"body":"product backlog management?"},{"startTime":108.129,"endTime":108.301,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":108.358,"endTime":112.463,"body":"That, that latter part, , backlog"},{"startTime":108.358,"endTime":112.463,"body":"management is really about keeping"},{"startTime":112.463,"endTime":117.063,"body":"hygiene around the backlog and making sure"},{"startTime":112.463,"endTime":117.063,"body":"there's just enough, but not too much."},{"startTime":117.12,"endTime":117.405,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":117.405,"endTime":120.034,"body":"Because if you have a very deep"},{"startTime":117.405,"endTime":120.034,"body":"backlog, some product owners"},{"startTime":120.034,"endTime":121.648,"body":"will say, Look at my backlog."},{"startTime":121.648,"endTime":122.163,"body":"It's awesome."},{"startTime":122.163,"endTime":125.62,"body":"I have 200 items in there and it's"},{"startTime":122.163,"endTime":125.62,"body":"like, okay, well it's like filling"},{"startTime":125.62,"endTime":130.248,"body":"your fridge with 200,  fresh"},{"startTime":125.62,"endTime":130.248,"body":"vegetables and fruit, right?"},{"startTime":130.248,"endTime":133.277,"body":"It's all good for you,"},{"startTime":130.248,"endTime":133.277,"body":"except it becomes stale."},{"startTime":133.334,"endTime":134.105,"body":"You can't use it."},{"startTime":134.105,"endTime":134.648,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":134.696,"endTime":137.867,"body":"An effective scrum master would"},{"startTime":134.696,"endTime":137.867,"body":"kind of advise that, right?"},{"startTime":137.867,"endTime":138.582,"body":"Of the product owner."},{"startTime":138.839,"endTime":142.686,"body":"The first part is a little trickier"},{"startTime":138.839,"endTime":142.686,"body":"for me because product goal definition"},{"startTime":142.686,"endTime":144.858,"body":"should be driven from product."},{"startTime":145.286,"endTime":148.872,"body":"And the scrum master can simply"},{"startTime":145.286,"endTime":148.872,"body":"be the, I guess the, how can I put"},{"startTime":149.015,"endTime":152.377,"body":"somebody who just vets that and"},{"startTime":149.015,"endTime":152.377,"body":"says, does it make sense as a goal?"},{"startTime":152.377,"endTime":153.177,"body":"Is it too big?"},{"startTime":153.205,"endTime":154.091,"body":"Is it too small?"},{"startTime":154.463,"endTime":155.12,"body":"That kind of thing."},{"startTime":155.12,"endTime":155.32,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":155.796,"endTime":156.91,"body":"What are your thoughts on this?"},{"startTime":157.291,"endTime":160.177,"body":"When I think of the product goal,"},{"startTime":157.291,"endTime":160.177,"body":"I think of the product goal being"},{"startTime":160.177,"endTime":164.339,"body":"typically something that is done,"},{"startTime":160.177,"endTime":164.339,"body":"before we ever even start building."},{"startTime":164.339,"endTime":170.024,"body":"And something that potentially, , can"},{"startTime":164.339,"endTime":170.024,"body":"be changed or adapted to some extent,"},{"startTime":170.029,"endTime":173.196,"body":"but usually doesn't move all that much."},{"startTime":173.672,"endTime":177.329,"body":", at least as we're doing"},{"startTime":173.672,"endTime":177.329,"body":"larger development."},{"startTime":177.596,"endTime":184.034,"body":"so speaking to the broad, the product"},{"startTime":177.596,"endTime":184.034,"body":"goal ex exclusively I think it depends on"},{"startTime":184.51,"endTime":188.053,"body":"when they're coming in because a product"},{"startTime":184.51,"endTime":188.053,"body":"goal is something that we need to be"},{"startTime":188.053,"endTime":192.958,"body":"aware of in regards to defining, but I"},{"startTime":188.053,"endTime":192.958,"body":"don't see that that is something that."},{"startTime":193.434,"endTime":196.091,"body":"And then we need to work towards, but"},{"startTime":193.434,"endTime":196.091,"body":"I don't see that that's something that"},{"startTime":196.091,"endTime":201.939,"body":"needs to be constantly iterated on or,"},{"startTime":196.091,"endTime":201.939,"body":"or needs to be adapted on a regular"},{"startTime":201.944,"endTime":207.148,"body":"basis, unlike the sprint goal, which"},{"startTime":201.944,"endTime":207.148,"body":"changes sometimes regularly, every"},{"startTime":207.148,"endTime":209.158,"body":"sprint or very frequently mm-hmm."},{"startTime":209.634,"endTime":213.32,"body":". So what I think from a scrum master"},{"startTime":209.634,"endTime":213.32,"body":"perspective is if they happen to be there"},{"startTime":213.32,"endTime":218.882,"body":"in the beginning, right, they definitely"},{"startTime":213.32,"endTime":218.882,"body":"need to help whomever is involved with"},{"startTime":218.882,"endTime":222.424,"body":"creating that product goal, which is going"},{"startTime":218.882,"endTime":222.424,"body":"to be a, I'm assuming a large, a large"},{"startTime":222.424,"endTime":224.263,"body":"group of stakeholders, not just product."},{"startTime":224.453,"endTime":226.882,"body":"We're gonna have a lot of people"},{"startTime":224.453,"endTime":226.882,"body":"that are gonna be inputting"},{"startTime":226.882,"endTime":228.482,"body":"in this and as scrum masters."},{"startTime":228.577,"endTime":233.224,"body":"Role in that is to help that group of"},{"startTime":228.577,"endTime":233.224,"body":"stakeholders, probably many of which"},{"startTime":233.224,"endTime":237.786,"body":"aren't going to necessarily understand"},{"startTime":233.224,"endTime":237.786,"body":"what that product goal potentially should"},{"startTime":237.786,"endTime":241.548,"body":"look like when we're thinking about this"},{"startTime":237.786,"endTime":241.548,"body":"being a really a, a far longer term."},{"startTime":242.024,"endTime":244.31,"body":"Goal as opposed, opposed to a short term."},{"startTime":244.786,"endTime":248.672,"body":"So helping that group of stakeholders,"},{"startTime":244.786,"endTime":248.672,"body":"which obviously would include product,"},{"startTime":248.929,"endTime":250.244,"body":"product management, product owners."},{"startTime":250.72,"endTime":254.405,"body":"So I see them more of a, as"},{"startTime":250.72,"endTime":254.405,"body":"a facilitator in that regard."},{"startTime":254.882,"endTime":261.386,"body":"In regards to the product backlog"},{"startTime":254.882,"endTime":261.386,"body":"management I see them being able to"},{"startTime":261.386,"endTime":265.815,"body":"be that, so using the term rubber"},{"startTime":261.386,"endTime":265.815,"body":"ducking, so helping the product owner"},{"startTime":265.815,"endTime":269.958,"body":"or product manager, really talk through"},{"startTime":265.815,"endTime":269.958,"body":"that backlog or talk through the"},{"startTime":269.958,"endTime":274.601,"body":"prioritization , and maybe sometimes"},{"startTime":269.958,"endTime":274.601,"body":"just getting that other perspective."},{"startTime":274.972,"endTime":276.315,"body":"So here's what I'm thinking."},{"startTime":276.401,"endTime":279.515,"body":"Anything that you're aware of, and"},{"startTime":276.401,"endTime":279.515,"body":"a lot of times the scrum masters."},{"startTime":279.958,"endTime":284.844,"body":"Are privy to other teams and are, are"},{"startTime":279.958,"endTime":284.844,"body":"potentially reporting in, in other"},{"startTime":284.844,"endTime":289.044,"body":"manners, and so maybe able to really give"},{"startTime":284.844,"endTime":289.044,"body":"some additional input in regards to that"},{"startTime":289.044,"endTime":291.329,"body":"backlog management and prioritization."},{"startTime":291.71,"endTime":293.301,"body":"I thought of something"},{"startTime":291.71,"endTime":293.301,"body":"as you were talking."},{"startTime":293.767,"endTime":294.824,"body":"Part of goal definition."},{"startTime":295.301,"endTime":296.758,"body":"I think that depends on the context."},{"startTime":297.129,"endTime":298.215,"body":"I go back to that."},{"startTime":298.301,"endTime":301.986,"body":"If you're a scrum master on a team"},{"startTime":298.301,"endTime":301.986,"body":"or a bunch of teams at a company like"},{"startTime":301.986,"endTime":303.158,"body":"Boeing, we talking about that earlier."},{"startTime":303.158,"endTime":303.329,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":303.796,"endTime":308.644,"body":"To what extent can you make an impact"},{"startTime":303.796,"endTime":308.644,"body":"techniques for product goal definition?"},{"startTime":308.644,"endTime":312.444,"body":"I mean, product goals are"},{"startTime":308.644,"endTime":312.444,"body":"way above you at that point."},{"startTime":312.672,"endTime":312.815,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":312.815,"endTime":315.672,"body":"So you don't really even influence"},{"startTime":312.815,"endTime":315.672,"body":"that because there's so many"},{"startTime":315.672,"endTime":316.786,"body":"other things that impinge on it."},{"startTime":316.815,"endTime":321.377,"body":"Regulatory safety, regulations,"},{"startTime":316.815,"endTime":321.377,"body":"compliance security, all of those things."},{"startTime":321.691,"endTime":323.377,"body":"So you really don't have much of a poll."},{"startTime":323.605,"endTime":328.32,"body":"All you can do is look for clarity in"},{"startTime":323.605,"endTime":328.32,"body":"the goals, make sure they're clear."},{"startTime":328.548,"endTime":329.977,"body":"Make sure they're measurable, right."},{"startTime":329.982,"endTime":331.691,"body":"Same thing with the"},{"startTime":329.982,"endTime":331.691,"body":"product backlog management."},{"startTime":331.834,"endTime":334.348,"body":"You have to do the things"},{"startTime":331.834,"endTime":334.348,"body":"you have to do, but."},{"startTime":334.824,"endTime":338.615,"body":"As you were saying, is the backlog"},{"startTime":334.824,"endTime":338.615,"body":"in a good state, is it too deep?"},{"startTime":338.644,"endTime":341.948,"body":"Is it, is it emergent"},{"startTime":338.644,"endTime":341.948,"body":"enough or is it static?"},{"startTime":342.148,"endTime":347.329,"body":"And, and again, it should be emergent,"},{"startTime":342.148,"endTime":347.329,"body":"but in my example, it's not as emergent."},{"startTime":347.329,"endTime":349.067,"body":"Because they know the"},{"startTime":347.329,"endTime":349.067,"body":"things we have to do."},{"startTime":349.096,"endTime":349.753,"body":"Those are red."},{"startTime":349.81,"endTime":351.782,"body":"You can't just say, well,"},{"startTime":349.81,"endTime":351.782,"body":"we'll figure it out."},{"startTime":351.867,"endTime":352.01,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":352.01,"endTime":352.724,"body":"Doesn't work that way."},{"startTime":352.729,"endTime":353.696,"body":"Cause you're building an airplane."},{"startTime":354.124,"endTime":355.124,"body":"Lives are a stake."},{"startTime":355.182,"endTime":355.353,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":355.382,"endTime":357.991,"body":"So I think it's contextual,"},{"startTime":355.382,"endTime":357.991,"body":"in certain cases."},{"startTime":358.105,"endTime":361.486,"body":"If you're just building software"},{"startTime":358.105,"endTime":361.486,"body":"in a typical software product"},{"startTime":361.544,"endTime":363.277,"body":"organization, then yeah."},{"startTime":363.282,"endTime":365.677,"body":"Perhaps you can have a"},{"startTime":363.282,"endTime":365.677,"body":"bit more of a, an impact."},{"startTime":366.153,"endTime":366.639,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":366.644,"endTime":368.467,"body":"I like,  I'm trying to go along with you."},{"startTime":368.515,"endTime":369.915,"body":"So we're talking about the scrum master."},{"startTime":370.144,"endTime":370.572,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":371.02,"endTime":371.705,"body":"So I have to."},{"startTime":372.182,"endTime":376.734,"body":"Take a step back with my little product"},{"startTime":372.182,"endTime":376.734,"body":"owner hat on for a second, because as a"},{"startTime":376.734,"endTime":380.724,"body":"product owner for Boeing, for example,"},{"startTime":376.734,"endTime":380.724,"body":"for the aircraft manufacturer, for"},{"startTime":380.724,"endTime":386.982,"body":"example, I am the product owner for the"},{"startTime":380.724,"endTime":386.982,"body":"avionics systems, or I am the product"},{"startTime":386.982,"endTime":391.182,"body":"owner for the hydraulic systems of the"},{"startTime":386.982,"endTime":391.182,"body":"aircraft product owner for metallurgy."},{"startTime":391.182,"endTime":393.382,"body":"I don't, I don't know what the"},{"startTime":391.182,"endTime":393.382,"body":"different departments will be."},{"startTime":393.382,"endTime":394.344,"body":"It's got 50 of 'em."},{"startTime":394.344,"endTime":394.686,"body":"Yeah, Yeah."},{"startTime":394.696,"endTime":396.324,"body":"The airframe for example."},{"startTime":396.324,"endTime":396.41,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":396.753,"endTime":399.524,"body":"I am concentrated with my team."},{"startTime":399.91,"endTime":404.415,"body":"On doing very important, very critical"},{"startTime":399.91,"endTime":404.415,"body":"things for my components on the aircraft."},{"startTime":404.415,"endTime":408.234,"body":"And I'm not lobbying for"},{"startTime":404.415,"endTime":408.234,"body":"component based teams."},{"startTime":408.672,"endTime":412.315,"body":"However, we're talking about the"},{"startTime":408.672,"endTime":412.315,"body":"scrum master who reaches out in"},{"startTime":412.315,"endTime":417.991,"body":"the organization  with a, a one"},{"startTime":412.315,"endTime":417.991,"body":"organization vision in their head."},{"startTime":418.467,"endTime":426.191,"body":"This person has to be bringing techniques"},{"startTime":418.467,"endTime":426.191,"body":"to take the individual product people in"},{"startTime":426.196,"endTime":433.363,"body":"their individual areas and be pulling them"},{"startTime":426.196,"endTime":433.363,"body":"into some sort of forum or venue where"},{"startTime":433.363,"endTime":439.467,"body":"they are talking to each other, to not get"},{"startTime":433.363,"endTime":439.467,"body":"so far ahead of each other and be lining"},{"startTime":439.467,"endTime":442.877,"body":"up to the goal that everyone aligns to."},{"startTime":443.353,"endTime":447.058,"body":"That everyone is continuing"},{"startTime":443.353,"endTime":447.058,"body":"to contribute to that goal."},{"startTime":447.41,"endTime":448.177,"body":"that's where I'm going with that."},{"startTime":448.177,"endTime":452.691,"body":"So, yeah, that when you like,"},{"startTime":448.177,"endTime":452.691,"body":"it's, it's you, you serve product."},{"startTime":452.72,"endTime":453.948,"body":"That's what this category is about."},{"startTime":454.091,"endTime":458.796,"body":"You serve product the best when yes,"},{"startTime":454.091,"endTime":458.796,"body":"you are helping your individual team cuz"},{"startTime":458.796,"endTime":463.339,"body":"you probably got hired on one individual"},{"startTime":458.796,"endTime":463.339,"body":"team, but you are keeping the whole"},{"startTime":463.339,"endTime":468.739,"body":"system in mind and keeping everyone in"},{"startTime":463.339,"endTime":468.739,"body":"line on all like, this might require you"},{"startTime":468.939,"endTime":472.196,"body":"to reach out to other Scrum masters on"},{"startTime":468.939,"endTime":472.196,"body":"other teams that are serving other teams."},{"startTime":472.196,"endTime":476.486,"body":"And they might be way more myopic"},{"startTime":472.196,"endTime":476.486,"body":"about what they're doing than you are."},{"startTime":476.886,"endTime":477.229,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":477.229,"endTime":479.429,"body":"Because of different"},{"startTime":477.229,"endTime":479.429,"body":"experience levels and Sure."},{"startTime":479.429,"endTime":480.986,"body":"Aligning the organization stuff like, It."},{"startTime":481.463,"endTime":485.882,"body":"But when I look at this bullet point, and"},{"startTime":481.463,"endTime":485.882,"body":"I listen to your examples, and I, and I"},{"startTime":485.882,"endTime":487.51,"body":"think of like, give me an example of this."},{"startTime":487.558,"endTime":491.034,"body":"And if you're gonna use air aircraft"},{"startTime":487.558,"endTime":491.034,"body":"manufacturing is a great example"},{"startTime":491.039,"endTime":492.605,"body":"of this because it's so difficult."},{"startTime":492.634,"endTime":497.277,"body":"It is it's so difficult for people to"},{"startTime":492.634,"endTime":497.277,"body":"immediately break into component teams"},{"startTime":497.277,"endTime":500.848,"body":"of like, well, I'm gonna, my development"},{"startTime":497.277,"endTime":500.848,"body":"teams over here, my QA teams over"},{"startTime":500.848,"endTime":503.953,"body":"here, my business requirements, teams"},{"startTime":500.848,"endTime":503.953,"body":"over here, and they're all separate"},{"startTime":503.953,"endTime":505.296,"body":"and they all gotta be completely done."},{"startTime":505.391,"endTime":506.477,"body":"That's not what we're saying."},{"startTime":506.524,"endTime":510.41,"body":"People can be assured that"},{"startTime":506.524,"endTime":510.41,"body":"everything that goes into to, to"},{"startTime":510.41,"endTime":514.21,"body":"producing the metal that goes on"},{"startTime":510.41,"endTime":514.21,"body":"this aircraft is the best it can be."},{"startTime":514.353,"endTime":518.353,"body":"And it lines up with what the engine"},{"startTime":514.353,"endTime":518.353,"body":"people need, what the fuselage people"},{"startTime":518.353,"endTime":519.839,"body":"need, what the frame people need."},{"startTime":519.867,"endTime":526.767,"body":"But if you have somebody who is continuing"},{"startTime":519.867,"endTime":526.767,"body":"to push you, To take a systems approach"},{"startTime":527.196,"endTime":528.767,"body":"to all the individual components."},{"startTime":529.148,"endTime":532.31,"body":"I feel that's what that's what"},{"startTime":529.148,"endTime":532.31,"body":"this, this individual bullet point"},{"startTime":532.31,"endTime":536.824,"body":"is talking about, helping find"},{"startTime":532.31,"endTime":536.824,"body":"techniques to more effectively do that."},{"startTime":537.091,"endTime":541.32,"body":"I think my product hat, I think a"},{"startTime":537.091,"endTime":541.32,"body":"product person is in this position."},{"startTime":541.52,"endTime":544.205,"body":"I think like, well, what is"},{"startTime":541.52,"endTime":544.205,"body":"your chief product person or"},{"startTime":544.205,"endTime":545.92,"body":"your group product person doing?"},{"startTime":546.063,"endTime":550.339,"body":"If not aligning your product people to be"},{"startTime":546.063,"endTime":550.339,"body":"like, Hey, let's all get on the same page."},{"startTime":550.653,"endTime":555.453,"body":"This is saying a scrum master is"},{"startTime":550.653,"endTime":555.453,"body":"sharing some of that responsibility,"},{"startTime":555.929,"endTime":556.615,"body":"I think both."},{"startTime":556.615,"endTime":556.872,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":556.872,"endTime":559.301,"body":"So yes, of course your product"},{"startTime":556.872,"endTime":559.301,"body":"organization is doing that."},{"startTime":559.301,"endTime":563.501,"body":"They're not developing in silos or even"},{"startTime":559.301,"endTime":563.501,"body":"conceptualizing the product in silos."},{"startTime":563.872,"endTime":565.872,"body":"But here to this bullet mm-hmm."},{"startTime":566.248,"endTime":570.548,"body":", a scrum master on any one of"},{"startTime":566.248,"endTime":570.548,"body":"these teams would be looking at"},{"startTime":570.634,"endTime":574.31,"body":"dependency management because your"},{"startTime":570.634,"endTime":574.31,"body":"team is producing one little widget."},{"startTime":574.639,"endTime":579.296,"body":"That's gonna fit into the bigger whole"},{"startTime":574.639,"endTime":579.296,"body":"and you can be finished, but nobody"},{"startTime":579.296,"endTime":582.924,"body":"can consume that or you're behind"},{"startTime":579.296,"endTime":582.924,"body":"because everyone's waiting on you."},{"startTime":583.01,"endTime":583.067,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":583.096,"endTime":588.496,"body":"So that synchronization needs to happen,"},{"startTime":583.096,"endTime":588.496,"body":"but how they help product here is making"},{"startTime":588.501,"endTime":592.01,"body":"sure that the right level of quality"},{"startTime":588.501,"endTime":592.01,"body":"testing is happening on everything."},{"startTime":592.382,"endTime":593.324,"body":"Start with your own team."},{"startTime":593.324,"endTime":597.134,"body":"But , integrating in with the next"},{"startTime":593.324,"endTime":597.134,"body":"team and then the next team at every"},{"startTime":597.134,"endTime":601.391,"body":"level there's testing going on and"},{"startTime":597.134,"endTime":601.391,"body":"it's the scrum master who makes sure"},{"startTime":601.391,"endTime":604.048,"body":"that that is included as work items."},{"startTime":604.144,"endTime":605.801,"body":"don't take on too much development."},{"startTime":605.886,"endTime":605.944,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":605.944,"endTime":609.829,"body":"Whatever that may look like in your"},{"startTime":605.944,"endTime":609.829,"body":"sprint, because you have to test, you"},{"startTime":609.829,"endTime":612.62,"body":"have to integrate with your downstream."},{"startTime":612.829,"endTime":615.286,"body":"And test and then provide"},{"startTime":612.829,"endTime":615.286,"body":"that to your upstream."},{"startTime":615.458,"endTime":615.544,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":615.548,"endTime":618.286,"body":"That happens throughout, whether"},{"startTime":615.548,"endTime":618.286,"body":"you're run by fuselage or"},{"startTime":618.286,"endTime":620.001,"body":"propulsion system or engine, Right."},{"startTime":620.477,"endTime":620.991,"body":"Throughout."},{"startTime":620.991,"endTime":621.591,"body":"Right, right, right."},{"startTime":621.596,"endTime":625.734,"body":"And then you have what they call"},{"startTime":621.596,"endTime":625.734,"body":"crosscutting technologies, Avionics."},{"startTime":625.934,"endTime":627.191,"body":"Well, where does that fall?"},{"startTime":627.191,"endTime":628.734,"body":"It falls across everything."},{"startTime":628.734,"endTime":632.548,"body":"So, What the scrum master would be doing"},{"startTime":628.734,"endTime":632.548,"body":"is looking at what their team is doing."},{"startTime":632.548,"endTime":634.377,"body":"Let's say, let's take a specific example."},{"startTime":634.405,"endTime":636.653,"body":"Let's say that their team is"},{"startTime":634.405,"endTime":636.653,"body":"working on the hydraulic system."},{"startTime":636.701,"endTime":640.244,"body":"And there is even that is broken down"},{"startTime":636.701,"endTime":640.244,"body":"into multiple, but it's simplified."},{"startTime":640.301,"endTime":640.415,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":640.648,"endTime":641.444,"body":", it's hydraulics."},{"startTime":641.644,"endTime":644.472,"body":"So what do they do , when their"},{"startTime":641.644,"endTime":644.472,"body":"team has something finished"},{"startTime":644.586,"endTime":646.415,"body":"as a finished product, Right."},{"startTime":646.444,"endTime":648.577,"body":"Do they deliver that savvy scrum?"},{"startTime":648.663,"endTime":653.11,"body":"They would say, this is one piece"},{"startTime":648.663,"endTime":653.11,"body":"of it, but for our piece to work,"},{"startTime":653.196,"endTime":655.424,"body":"it needs the corresponding software."},{"startTime":655.453,"endTime":655.767,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":655.772,"endTime":657.196,"body":"Which is the avionics piece."},{"startTime":657.453,"endTime":658.796,"body":"Let's integrate that in."},{"startTime":659.067,"endTime":661.582,"body":"But don't do it after you've"},{"startTime":659.067,"endTime":661.582,"body":"developed your hydraulics."},{"startTime":661.582,"endTime":663.496,"body":"Build it in from the beginning."},{"startTime":663.496,"endTime":664.924,"body":"So your backlog reflects that."},{"startTime":665.353,"endTime":669.153,"body":"So have it integrated in and when you"},{"startTime":665.353,"endTime":669.153,"body":"test it and everything's working good,"},{"startTime":669.324,"endTime":673.639,"body":"at that point you could say, We're"},{"startTime":669.324,"endTime":673.639,"body":"ready to integrate this upstream."},{"startTime":673.724,"endTime":673.924,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":674.21,"endTime":678.153,"body":"But at the same time, you're also"},{"startTime":674.21,"endTime":678.153,"body":"keeping your eye on what is coming next."},{"startTime":678.182,"endTime":678.467,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":678.467,"endTime":681.039,"body":"Because your downstream"},{"startTime":678.467,"endTime":681.039,"body":"is ready to deliver."},{"startTime":681.124,"endTime":685.124,"body":"So it's on a flow and, And the"},{"startTime":681.124,"endTime":685.124,"body":"scrum master is helping product."},{"startTime":685.21,"endTime":685.353,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":685.439,"endTime":688.096,"body":"By making sure they know what"},{"startTime":685.439,"endTime":688.096,"body":"needs to be in the backlog."},{"startTime":688.096,"endTime":691.896,"body":"Hey, we don't have this in the backlog"},{"startTime":688.096,"endTime":691.896,"body":"right now, or it's way lower, but"},{"startTime":691.896,"endTime":693.058,"body":"it's coming up in the next sprint."},{"startTime":693.058,"endTime":693.363,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":693.439,"endTime":693.724,"body":". Right."},{"startTime":693.953,"endTime":695.839,"body":"So bring that to in visibility."},{"startTime":696.077,"endTime":699.039,"body":"I think something that we're"},{"startTime":696.077,"endTime":699.039,"body":"assuming, but I just want to call"},{"startTime":699.039,"endTime":703.372,"body":"out and that is assuming that there"},{"startTime":699.039,"endTime":703.372,"body":"is even a product goal, right?"},{"startTime":703.372,"endTime":705.42,"body":"So and if there is, right?"},{"startTime":705.42,"endTime":707.248,"body":"And honestly like right?"},{"startTime":707.277,"endTime":710.039,"body":"So assuming that there is"},{"startTime":707.277,"endTime":710.039,"body":"a product goal, oh boy."},{"startTime":710.044,"endTime":714.505,"body":"And if there isn't,  so what then"},{"startTime":710.044,"endTime":714.505,"body":"are the techniques for creating"},{"startTime":714.51,"endTime":716.02,"body":"a an effective product goal?"},{"startTime":716.048,"endTime":717.877,"body":"Who do we need get involved"},{"startTime":716.048,"endTime":717.877,"body":"in that conversation."},{"startTime":717.924,"endTime":721.244,"body":"I feel like you, you hit a, you hit a"},{"startTime":717.924,"endTime":721.244,"body":"huge,, I don't know what to call it."},{"startTime":721.386,"endTime":723.186,"body":"A huge problem, a challenge."},{"startTime":723.234,"endTime":727.586,"body":"A Titanic size issue, which is what if"},{"startTime":723.234,"endTime":727.586,"body":"you're the product per or what if you're"},{"startTime":727.586,"endTime":731.748,"body":"the scrum master and you highlight that"},{"startTime":727.586,"endTime":731.748,"body":"the product people have no strategy"},{"startTime":731.748,"endTime":734.005,"body":"to hook into to create a product goal."},{"startTime":734.101,"endTime":737.644,"body":"Because leadership is not directing a"},{"startTime":734.101,"endTime":737.644,"body":"strategy down to your product people."},{"startTime":737.815,"endTime":741.777,"body":"And, and therefore your product"},{"startTime":737.815,"endTime":741.777,"body":"people have no goal to hook"},{"startTime":741.777,"endTime":743.577,"body":"into, to bring to the teams."},{"startTime":743.815,"endTime":747.644,"body":"This is both an example of giving"},{"startTime":743.815,"endTime":747.644,"body":"an example of a real world problem"},{"startTime":747.672,"endTime":751.044,"body":"and also an example of who does this"},{"startTime":747.672,"endTime":751.044,"body":"when there's no scrum master, right?"},{"startTime":751.072,"endTime":756.986,"body":"Who, who in your organization"},{"startTime":751.072,"endTime":756.986,"body":"highlights and challenges leadership?"},{"startTime":757.301,"endTime":759.044,"body":"Cuz that's where the"},{"startTime":757.301,"endTime":759.044,"body":"strategy should come from."},{"startTime":759.52,"endTime":762.034,"body":"Who challenges leadership in the"},{"startTime":759.52,"endTime":762.034,"body":"organization without a scrum master?"},{"startTime":762.063,"endTime":764.424,"body":"This, I want to ask this"},{"startTime":762.063,"endTime":764.424,"body":"question specifically before we."},{"startTime":764.901,"endTime":769.958,"body":"Who challenges leadership specifically"},{"startTime":764.901,"endTime":769.958,"body":"and says, You have no strategy."},{"startTime":770.434,"endTime":773.948,"body":"We need a strategy before the"},{"startTime":770.434,"endTime":773.948,"body":"development teams continue."},{"startTime":774.424,"endTime":775.939,"body":"Like creating random software."},{"startTime":775.939,"endTime":778.31,"body":"I don't, I don't even know why you're"},{"startTime":775.939,"endTime":778.31,"body":"creating software at that point."},{"startTime":778.31,"endTime":779.139,"body":"If you have no strategy,"},{"startTime":779.539,"endTime":780.939,"body":"I guess I have two questions."},{"startTime":781.282,"endTime":782.996,"body":"How would you deal with"},{"startTime":781.282,"endTime":782.996,"body":"that as a scrum master?"},{"startTime":783.196,"endTime":784.71,"body":"A scrum, not a product person."},{"startTime":784.71,"endTime":785.986,"body":"Sure, a scrum master."},{"startTime":786.129,"endTime":788.472,"body":"How would you deal with that as a"},{"startTime":786.129,"endTime":788.472,"body":"scrum master, and how would you deal"},{"startTime":788.472,"endTime":790.958,"body":"with that in an organization where"},{"startTime":788.472,"endTime":790.958,"body":"they don't have the scrum master?"},{"startTime":791.434,"endTime":795.548,"body":"As a scrum master, if you are aware"},{"startTime":791.434,"endTime":795.548,"body":"that there is no strategy right?"},{"startTime":796.024,"endTime":797.11,"body":"How would you deal with that?"},{"startTime":797.482,"endTime":801.072,"body":"You do have to pull out the, you"},{"startTime":797.482,"endTime":801.072,"body":"have to pull the chain in that"},{"startTime":801.072,"endTime":803.301,"body":"TPS or Toyota production system."},{"startTime":803.301,"endTime":803.558,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":803.586,"endTime":803.958,"body":"Model."},{"startTime":803.958,"endTime":804.272,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":804.329,"endTime":805.32,"body":"Not TPS reports."},{"startTime":805.32,"endTime":805.472,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":805.472,"endTime":806.329,"body":"Not TPS reports."},{"startTime":806.567,"endTime":810.382,"body":"Yeah, just, just pull the chain and"},{"startTime":806.567,"endTime":810.382,"body":"say, Listen, we're running, but we don't"},{"startTime":810.382,"endTime":811.61,"body":"know which direction we're going in."},{"startTime":811.61,"endTime":811.753,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":811.924,"endTime":813.353,"body":"Much less where are we going?"},{"startTime":813.358,"endTime":814.81,"body":"So how we know when we got there."},{"startTime":815.124,"endTime":815.41,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":815.41,"endTime":817.153,"body":"So let's, let's ask that question."},{"startTime":817.153,"endTime":819.324,"body":"And a scrum master has to do that."},{"startTime":819.524,"endTime":819.724,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":819.877,"endTime":821.505,"body":"So I'm gonna fast forward quickly here."},{"startTime":821.591,"endTime":821.763,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":821.791,"endTime":824.963,"body":"Well, well, well like welcome to"},{"startTime":821.791,"endTime":824.963,"body":"working in a leadership position."},{"startTime":825.153,"endTime":825.791,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":825.934,"endTime":827.62,"body":"You are part of the leadership team."},{"startTime":828.096,"endTime":831.61,"body":"If your organization wants to claim"},{"startTime":828.096,"endTime":831.61,"body":"you have a leadership team, not just"},{"startTime":831.61,"endTime":834.267,"body":"a bunch of executives who are all"},{"startTime":831.61,"endTime":834.267,"body":"running in different directions."},{"startTime":834.41,"endTime":837.467,"body":"If you really wanna claim you have a"},{"startTime":834.41,"endTime":837.467,"body":"leadership team, this scrum master,"},{"startTime":837.839,"endTime":841.782,"body":"welcome to being part of the leadership"},{"startTime":837.839,"endTime":841.782,"body":"apparatus of the organization."},{"startTime":841.81,"endTime":841.953,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":841.982,"endTime":845.839,"body":"You, anybody on that leadership"},{"startTime":841.982,"endTime":845.839,"body":"apparatus should be able to say,"},{"startTime":846.01,"endTime":848.582,"body":"Hey, this strategy is not working."},{"startTime":849.058,"endTime":850.972,"body":"Or the strategy's not as"},{"startTime":849.058,"endTime":850.972,"body":"clear as you think it is,"},{"startTime":850.972,"endTime":851.686,"body":"any of the above."},{"startTime":851.972,"endTime":852.915,"body":"Yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":853.153,"endTime":856.344,"body":"In, in an organization where there"},{"startTime":853.153,"endTime":856.344,"body":"is no scrum master and who does this?"},{"startTime":856.744,"endTime":858.029,"body":"You hope somebody would do it?"},{"startTime":858.382,"endTime":861.463,"body":"If you, if you're looking at a, a"},{"startTime":858.382,"endTime":861.463,"body":"deaf team, listen, it could be a"},{"startTime":861.463,"endTime":864.634,"body":"developer who's savvy enough who's"},{"startTime":861.463,"endTime":864.634,"body":"worked it's some experience, right?"},{"startTime":864.948,"endTime":866.891,"body":"Who says, We keep building this stuff."},{"startTime":866.891,"endTime":867.434,"body":"Well, we don't know."},{"startTime":867.91,"endTime":870.967,"body":"And they, they would raise"},{"startTime":867.91,"endTime":870.967,"body":"it to somebody, one hopes."},{"startTime":870.996,"endTime":871.082,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":871.31,"endTime":872.396,"body":", There's no scrum master though."},{"startTime":872.682,"endTime":873.682,"body":"So who does that?"},{"startTime":874.139,"endTime":875.739,"body":"Maybe the product person does it."},{"startTime":875.739,"endTime":875.967,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":876.253,"endTime":878.653,"body":". If there's no scrum master,"},{"startTime":876.253,"endTime":878.653,"body":"a developer could do it."},{"startTime":878.653,"endTime":880.453,"body":"Architect, even a tester."},{"startTime":880.653,"endTime":881.796,"body":"Anyone can do it."},{"startTime":881.801,"endTime":882.624,"body":"But who does it?"},{"startTime":883.082,"endTime":884.567,"body":"I haven't come across that before."},{"startTime":884.567,"endTime":885.596,"body":"Sales people do it."},{"startTime":885.672,"endTime":888.739,"body":"Sales salespeople will do it"},{"startTime":885.672,"endTime":888.739,"body":"with their own interest at heart."},{"startTime":888.853,"endTime":889.31,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":889.31,"endTime":890.882,"body":"That's the, that's the difference."},{"startTime":890.886,"endTime":891.939,"body":"This strategy is not good."},{"startTime":892.339,"endTime":896.253,"body":"Hey, look, I'm gonna get my commission"},{"startTime":892.339,"endTime":896.253,"body":"in six weeks when I sell this."},{"startTime":896.31,"endTime":901.272,"body":"I mean, that's, that's he helping find"},{"startTime":896.31,"endTime":901.272,"body":"techniques for effective product goal"},{"startTime":901.272,"endTime":903.701,"body":"definition and product backlog management."},{"startTime":903.701,"endTime":909.915,"body":"Like if you are an organization that is"},{"startTime":903.701,"endTime":909.915,"body":"a, a hardcore sales led organization the"},{"startTime":909.915,"endTime":916.258,"body":"sales people bring your development team"},{"startTime":909.915,"endTime":916.258,"body":"things to do, you implement the projects,"},{"startTime":916.734,"endTime":919.953,"body":"bang out a piece of software, it's a"},{"startTime":916.734,"endTime":919.953,"body":"one time thing, Stands alone doesn't"},{"startTime":919.953,"endTime":921.248,"body":"integrate with anything else you do."},{"startTime":921.448,"endTime":922.477,"body":"It's just for that customer."},{"startTime":922.477,"endTime":923.248,"body":"You knock it out and you're."},{"startTime":923.724,"endTime":926.353,"body":"I mean, basically you don't"},{"startTime":923.724,"endTime":926.353,"body":"really have a strategy."},{"startTime":926.353,"endTime":930.772,"body":"It was whatever your sales team brings you"},{"startTime":926.353,"endTime":930.772,"body":"to bring money in, that's your strategy."},{"startTime":930.772,"endTime":933.544,"body":"You've built a liability, now"},{"startTime":930.772,"endTime":933.544,"body":"you gotta support that one off."},{"startTime":933.572,"endTime":933.915,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":934.115,"endTime":934.944,"body":"For foreseeable future."},{"startTime":935.001,"endTime":936.229,"body":"That's not the salesman's problem."},{"startTime":936.234,"endTime":937.115,"body":"Or sales ladies' problem."},{"startTime":937.315,"endTime":938.544,"body":"I mean, they made their commission."},{"startTime":938.572,"endTime":938.829,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":938.829,"endTime":942.886,"body":"I can't, I mean, I, I kind of can"},{"startTime":938.829,"endTime":942.886,"body":"blame them, but also like, I, I"},{"startTime":942.886,"endTime":947.458,"body":"can't, organizationally speaking as"},{"startTime":942.886,"endTime":947.458,"body":"a system, I can't really blame them."},{"startTime":947.629,"endTime":947.801,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":947.801,"endTime":949.315,"body":"Because that is what,"},{"startTime":947.801,"endTime":949.315,"body":"that's what they encourage."},{"startTime":949.315,"endTime":949.772,"body":"So Yes."},{"startTime":949.839,"endTime":951.144,"body":"That's, that's what they reward."},{"startTime":951.172,"endTime":951.458,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":951.486,"endTime":953.153,"body":"We talked about that at another podcast"},{"startTime":953.172,"endTime":954.601,"body":"it's the reward system Yeah."},{"startTime":954.605,"endTime":955.401,"body":"Of the organization."},{"startTime":955.544,"endTime":956.544,"body":"That's how they reward it."},{"startTime":956.782,"endTime":959.267,"body":"And I feel , there will be people"},{"startTime":956.782,"endTime":959.267,"body":"listening to this saying like,"},{"startTime":959.296,"endTime":960.524,"body":"Oh, that's my organization."},{"startTime":960.705,"endTime":963.82,"body":"Sales goes out and sells a"},{"startTime":960.705,"endTime":963.82,"body":"feature that my software can't do."},{"startTime":964.248,"endTime":967.934,"body":"And you know, my, the, the product"},{"startTime":964.248,"endTime":967.934,"body":"challenge to that is, well, are you"},{"startTime":967.939,"endTime":970.896,"body":"giving them a roadmap and telling"},{"startTime":967.939,"endTime":970.896,"body":"them, these are the upcoming things."},{"startTime":971.282,"endTime":972.653,"body":"These are the things you should sell."},{"startTime":973.129,"endTime":975.577,"body":"And are you bringing them into the"},{"startTime":973.129,"endTime":975.577,"body":"conversation of building a roadmap"},{"startTime":975.701,"endTime":979.205,"body":"together or are you cutting them"},{"startTime":975.701,"endTime":979.205,"body":"out of that cuz you're afraid"},{"startTime":979.405,"endTime":980.777,"body":"they're gonna disagree with you?"},{"startTime":981.253,"endTime":986.072,"body":"And if that's the case, now we have"},{"startTime":981.253,"endTime":986.072,"body":"an issue with product discovery."},{"startTime":986.301,"endTime":986.415,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":986.444,"endTime":989.301,"body":"Now we have an issue with what we're"},{"startTime":986.444,"endTime":989.301,"body":"talking about here, the bullet point"},{"startTime":989.305,"endTime":993.434,"body":"number one effective product goal"},{"startTime":989.305,"endTime":993.434,"body":"definition and product backlog management."},{"startTime":993.482,"endTime":996.967,"body":"If you're in a sales led organization"},{"startTime":993.482,"endTime":996.967,"body":"and sales is basically leading your"},{"startTime":996.967,"endTime":1001.129,"body":"development team along the way and you're"},{"startTime":996.967,"endTime":1001.129,"body":"not in charge of where your product"},{"startTime":1001.129,"endTime":1006.405,"body":"backlog is going, it's because you don't"},{"startTime":1001.129,"endTime":1006.405,"body":"have an effective way to tell them these"},{"startTime":1006.405,"endTime":1008.548,"body":"are things coming up for you to sell."},{"startTime":1009.024,"endTime":1012.624,"body":"What they're saying is, these are the"},{"startTime":1009.024,"endTime":1012.624,"body":"things that I am able to sell from"},{"startTime":1012.624,"endTime":1013.967,"body":"my conversation with the customers."},{"startTime":1014.082,"endTime":1018.272,"body":"Now you must build them so"},{"startTime":1014.082,"endTime":1018.272,"body":"you like, you need to reverse."},{"startTime":1018.586,"endTime":1021.848,"body":"What's happening  and you need to"},{"startTime":1018.586,"endTime":1021.848,"body":"reverse that by talking to them and"},{"startTime":1021.848,"endTime":1026.429,"body":"having more dialogue and having more"},{"startTime":1021.848,"endTime":1026.429,"body":"understanding of what, I guess, I guess"},{"startTime":1026.429,"endTime":1028.086,"body":"where I'm going with this is more empathy."},{"startTime":1028.144,"endTime":1030.648,"body":"That's where I'm gonna I'm gonna shortcut,"},{"startTime":1028.144,"endTime":1030.648,"body":"I'm gonna hotwire this conversation."},{"startTime":1031.124,"endTime":1033.839,"body":"You need to have more empathy for"},{"startTime":1031.124,"endTime":1033.839,"body":"where your customers are and where"},{"startTime":1033.839,"endTime":1035.267,"body":"sales team is trying to take them."},{"startTime":1035.744,"endTime":1036.744,"body":"Build all that together."},{"startTime":1037.22,"endTime":1038.848,"body":"Specifically though, with the, I agree."},{"startTime":1038.848,"endTime":1040.858,"body":"First of all, but you know,"},{"startTime":1038.848,"endTime":1040.858,"body":"with Scrum master, this scrum"},{"startTime":1040.863,"endTime":1041.963,"body":"master role is a tough Yeah."},{"startTime":1041.963,"endTime":1042.82,"body":"Scrum master, right?"},{"startTime":1042.82,"endTime":1047.191,"body":"So one thing they could do, one thing they"},{"startTime":1042.82,"endTime":1047.191,"body":"might potentially consider is to shorten"},{"startTime":1047.191,"endTime":1050.505,"body":"the value chain and talk to the sales"},{"startTime":1047.191,"endTime":1050.505,"body":"people and say, Bring the customer in."},{"startTime":1050.705,"endTime":1052.448,"body":"Yeah, let's talk to them collectively."},{"startTime":1052.591,"endTime":1055.105,"body":"Not you go talk and sell"},{"startTime":1052.591,"endTime":1055.105,"body":"whatever you want and tell us."},{"startTime":1055.11,"endTime":1058.163,"body":"Deliver, bring together, come together,"},{"startTime":1055.11,"endTime":1058.163,"body":"bring together and say, what can we build?"},{"startTime":1058.163,"endTime":1059.02,"body":"What are your needs?"},{"startTime":1059.02,"endTime":1059.734,"body":"Listen to them."},{"startTime":1060.163,"endTime":1060.42,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1060.42,"endTime":1061.963,"body":"And then build the appropriate solution."},{"startTime":1061.991,"endTime":1062.077,"body":"Oh boy."},{"startTime":1062.082,"endTime":1063.905,"body":"Rather than build something, hope it fits."},{"startTime":1063.953,"endTime":1067.458,"body":"The pertinent word and, and you"},{"startTime":1063.953,"endTime":1067.458,"body":"said this earlier, Brian, Literally"},{"startTime":1067.458,"endTime":1069.086,"body":"one word in that sentence."},{"startTime":1069.086,"endTime":1070.258,"body":"And that is techniques."},{"startTime":1070.31,"endTime":1073.539,"body":"Scrum Master's responsible not for"},{"startTime":1070.31,"endTime":1073.539,"body":"creating a pro product backlog."},{"startTime":1073.567,"endTime":1073.682,"body":"No."},{"startTime":1073.853,"endTime":1076.71,"body":"And not for managing a product backlog."},{"startTime":1076.739,"endTime":1082.22,"body":"But for understanding what those are"},{"startTime":1076.739,"endTime":1082.22,"body":"and for helping the product owner."},{"startTime":1082.696,"endTime":1085.972,"body":"To with techniques for"},{"startTime":1082.696,"endTime":1085.972,"body":"making those effective."},{"startTime":1086.048,"endTime":1086.105,"body":". Yeah."},{"startTime":1086.105,"endTime":1089.905,"body":"And what you've described, and both"},{"startTime":1086.105,"endTime":1089.905,"body":"of you have mentioned multiple ways"},{"startTime":1089.91,"endTime":1091.648,"body":"and techniques of actually doing that."},{"startTime":1091.848,"endTime":1091.905,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1091.934,"endTime":1096.682,"body":"So being closer to sales, bringing in,"},{"startTime":1091.934,"endTime":1096.682,"body":"bringing the customers in, making sure"},{"startTime":1096.682,"endTime":1098.482,"body":"sales are part of  the sprint review."},{"startTime":1098.767,"endTime":1098.882,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1099.082,"endTime":1102.31,"body":"So that, and given them the"},{"startTime":1099.082,"endTime":1102.31,"body":"opportunity, let them, Yeah."},{"startTime":1102.339,"endTime":1103.453,"body":"Sit out a few times mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1103.886,"endTime":1107.624,"body":", and then go, You know what, Hey, we had,"},{"startTime":1103.886,"endTime":1107.624,"body":"we actually demonstrated the, demonstrated"},{"startTime":1107.624,"endTime":1113.558,"body":"this, we had a customer using it in our in"},{"startTime":1107.624,"endTime":1113.558,"body":"our review last sprint or two sprints ago."},{"startTime":1113.844,"endTime":1118.367,"body":"It's an event that you've been invited"},{"startTime":1113.844,"endTime":1118.367,"body":"to So those are techniques that a scrum"},{"startTime":1118.367,"endTime":1123.558,"body":"master could potentially bring to the"},{"startTime":1118.367,"endTime":1123.558,"body":"product owner to advocate for themselves."},{"startTime":1123.558,"endTime":1127.272,"body":"The scrum paster doesn't need to"},{"startTime":1123.558,"endTime":1127.272,"body":"even be the one doing these things."},{"startTime":1127.301,"endTime":1127.415,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1127.453,"endTime":1130.796,"body":"They're helping the product owner"},{"startTime":1127.453,"endTime":1130.796,"body":"or the product person at this point."},{"startTime":1130.824,"endTime":1130.91,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1131.196,"endTime":1137.815,"body":". So being aware, advocating and helping"},{"startTime":1131.196,"endTime":1137.815,"body":"them to understand how they may make"},{"startTime":1138.044,"endTime":1140.415,"body":"tangible some of these actual techniques."},{"startTime":1140.415,"endTime":1141.958,"body":"And you guys mentioned several of them."},{"startTime":1142.015,"endTime":1142.244,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1142.444,"endTime":1145.415,"body":"But yeah, so it's that techniques"},{"startTime":1142.444,"endTime":1145.415,"body":"and the communication and kind"},{"startTime":1145.42,"endTime":1147.644,"body":"of the back and forth between"},{"startTime":1145.42,"endTime":1147.644,"body":"the product on the scrum master."},{"startTime":1147.672,"endTime":1147.729,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1147.729,"endTime":1149.501,"body":"Sometimes you can't just read about these."},{"startTime":1149.501,"endTime":1151.101,"body":"I have an anecdote to share about this."},{"startTime":1151.101,"endTime":1154.282,"body":"You know, some time ago when I was a"},{"startTime":1151.101,"endTime":1154.282,"body":"young Scrum Master, one of the things"},{"startTime":1154.286,"endTime":1157.901,"body":"that came out was in a sales led"},{"startTime":1154.286,"endTime":1157.901,"body":"organization, I might add a global one."},{"startTime":1158.377,"endTime":1159.748,"body":"They built great products."},{"startTime":1160.091,"endTime":1161.863,"body":"Unfortunately customers didn't like them."},{"startTime":1162.339,"endTime":1163.396,"body":"And there was a gap there."},{"startTime":1163.491,"endTime":1168.748,"body":"So we knew there was a customer or"},{"startTime":1163.491,"endTime":1168.748,"body":"user forum, whatever they call it, user"},{"startTime":1168.748,"endTime":1170.063,"body":"conference, that's what they called it."},{"startTime":1170.082,"endTime":1170.263,"body":"Right, Right."},{"startTime":1170.267,"endTime":1172.348,"body":"Every year there, there'd be"},{"startTime":1170.267,"endTime":1172.348,"body":"a user conference there in a"},{"startTime":1172.348,"endTime":1173.348,"body":"different part of the world."},{"startTime":1173.805,"endTime":1178.034,"body":"And so like, okay, this is great because"},{"startTime":1173.805,"endTime":1178.034,"body":"we have the users getting together and"},{"startTime":1178.034,"endTime":1182.663,"body":"what the company was doing is they would"},{"startTime":1178.034,"endTime":1182.663,"body":"be hosting it in a hotel somewhere."},{"startTime":1182.929,"endTime":1185.786,"body":"Users come in they get"},{"startTime":1182.929,"endTime":1185.786,"body":"treated, all of that stuff."},{"startTime":1185.786,"endTime":1185.986,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1186.158,"endTime":1186.872,"body":"Nice food."},{"startTime":1187.158,"endTime":1191.129,"body":"And there was maybe an hour of where,"},{"startTime":1187.158,"endTime":1191.129,"body":"okay, what are your pain points?"},{"startTime":1191.158,"endTime":1191.501,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1191.505,"endTime":1194.701,"body":"And who was in that discussion"},{"startTime":1191.505,"endTime":1194.701,"body":"was critical from our company."},{"startTime":1194.958,"endTime":1197.758,"body":"At the time it was project managers."},{"startTime":1198.234,"endTime":1202.577,"body":"It was customer service people that"},{"startTime":1198.234,"endTime":1202.577,"body":"dealt with customers day in, day out."},{"startTime":1202.834,"endTime":1205.405,"body":"But nobody on the leadership level Yeah."},{"startTime":1205.491,"endTime":1207.234,"body":"Was in that hour long meeting."},{"startTime":1207.463,"endTime":1207.52,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1207.52,"endTime":1209.348,"body":"Two days, one hour, nobody was there."},{"startTime":1209.748,"endTime":1213.139,"body":"And then the rest of the time"},{"startTime":1209.748,"endTime":1213.139,"body":"it was between entertaining."},{"startTime":1213.167,"endTime":1213.367,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1213.624,"endTime":1214.339,"body":"The rest of the time was."},{"startTime":1214.624,"endTime":1216.71,"body":"Well, it, it's a showcase, right?"},{"startTime":1216.71,"endTime":1219.624,"body":"So here's Product X, here's"},{"startTime":1216.71,"endTime":1219.624,"body":"what we're planning for you."},{"startTime":1219.624,"endTime":1219.796,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1219.824,"endTime":1221.11,"body":"This is coming out next quarter."},{"startTime":1221.11,"endTime":1222.424,"body":"This is coming out six months."},{"startTime":1222.901,"endTime":1225.186,"body":"So I'm like, okay, this"},{"startTime":1222.901,"endTime":1225.186,"body":"is a wasted opportunity."},{"startTime":1225.558,"endTime":1225.872,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1225.901,"endTime":1229.52,"body":"So what we did is we turned that on"},{"startTime":1225.901,"endTime":1229.52,"body":"its head and we said, instead of that"},{"startTime":1229.524,"endTime":1235.253,"body":"hour, we're gonna let customers talk to"},{"startTime":1229.524,"endTime":1235.253,"body":"one another and, and we will pull out,"},{"startTime":1235.31,"endTime":1236.739,"body":"We won't be in that conference room."},{"startTime":1236.824,"endTime":1236.91,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1236.939,"endTime":1238.91,"body":"We'll completely pull out as a company."},{"startTime":1239.339,"endTime":1240.624,"body":"So the company's not even there."},{"startTime":1240.91,"endTime":1241.253,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1241.729,"endTime":1245.215,"body":"And the customers are there, they talk"},{"startTime":1241.729,"endTime":1245.215,"body":"to each other, but they are given a goal."},{"startTime":1245.691,"endTime":1248.863,"body":"Their goal is at the end of that"},{"startTime":1245.691,"endTime":1248.863,"body":"three, four hour session that they"},{"startTime":1248.863,"endTime":1254.396,"body":"have, at the second half of the first"},{"startTime":1248.863,"endTime":1254.396,"body":"day, they come out with a top 10 of"},{"startTime":1254.872,"endTime":1258.215,"body":"issues that they're facing that they"},{"startTime":1254.872,"endTime":1258.215,"body":"want us as a company to address."},{"startTime":1258.22,"endTime":1258.586,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1258.948,"endTime":1259.729,"body":". And the next."},{"startTime":1260.205,"endTime":1261.348,"body":"They send that to us, right?"},{"startTime":1261.348,"endTime":1265.491,"body":"So the next day we of course work in the"},{"startTime":1261.348,"endTime":1265.491,"body":"evenings to discuss this as a company."},{"startTime":1265.748,"endTime":1269.12,"body":"Next day we come in and share"},{"startTime":1265.748,"endTime":1269.12,"body":"our plans to address those or"},{"startTime":1269.177,"endTime":1270.548,"body":"to not address those, right?"},{"startTime":1270.553,"endTime":1270.786,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1271.005,"endTime":1272.977,"body":". So who does that though?"},{"startTime":1273.453,"endTime":1275.453,"body":"Not the engineers, not"},{"startTime":1273.453,"endTime":1275.453,"body":"the project managers."},{"startTime":1275.482,"endTime":1278.767,"body":"Now we want leadership to come"},{"startTime":1275.482,"endTime":1278.767,"body":"in and say, Here are the 10"},{"startTime":1278.767,"endTime":1281.015,"body":"things you customers told us."},{"startTime":1281.063,"endTime":1284.291,"body":"And they're on a big screen"},{"startTime":1281.063,"endTime":1284.291,"body":"and with a laser pointer."},{"startTime":1284.291,"endTime":1288.777,"body":"We went through each one and said,"},{"startTime":1284.291,"endTime":1288.777,"body":"Explain to us why, Why is this number one?"},{"startTime":1288.863,"endTime":1289.063,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1289.291,"endTime":1293.205,"body":"We're not gonna take it at face value"},{"startTime":1289.291,"endTime":1293.205,"body":"just because somebody said, So why?"},{"startTime":1293.234,"endTime":1293.977,"body":"Why is this one?"},{"startTime":1294.005,"endTime":1294.634,"body":"Why is this two?"},{"startTime":1294.634,"endTime":1295.405,"body":"Why is this three?"},{"startTime":1295.882,"endTime":1299.567,"body":"And at the end of that, with that"},{"startTime":1295.882,"endTime":1299.567,"body":"understanding a commitment, a verbal"},{"startTime":1299.572,"endTime":1304.082,"body":"commitment was made, we will address"},{"startTime":1299.572,"endTime":1304.082,"body":"number one and two in the next quarter."},{"startTime":1304.558,"endTime":1305.415,"body":"We can't tell you when."},{"startTime":1305.415,"endTime":1306.244,"body":"We'll get to three."},{"startTime":1306.386,"endTime":1307.301,"body":"We'll talk about that."},{"startTime":1307.444,"endTime":1307.529,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1307.534,"endTime":1308.529,"body":"Well, let's stay in touch."},{"startTime":1308.901,"endTime":1309.244,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1309.615,"endTime":1311.129,"body":"So there was no over promising."},{"startTime":1311.158,"endTime":1313.158,"body":"We're not gonna fix everything, right."},{"startTime":1313.215,"endTime":1315.872,"body":"We're gonna fix the top two"},{"startTime":1313.215,"endTime":1315.872,"body":"pain points in the next quarter."},{"startTime":1316.348,"endTime":1319.634,"body":"Users well, so much better because"},{"startTime":1316.348,"endTime":1319.634,"body":"they're gonna get their biggest"},{"startTime":1319.639,"endTime":1321.434,"body":"issues solved in three months."},{"startTime":1321.491,"endTime":1321.577,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1321.92,"endTime":1324.605,"body":"That is a huge change for"},{"startTime":1321.92,"endTime":1324.605,"body":"where we were a year ago."},{"startTime":1324.834,"endTime":1325.205,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1325.491,"endTime":1329.339,"body":"And as a scrum master, feel"},{"startTime":1325.491,"endTime":1329.339,"body":"pretty proud of having just"},{"startTime":1329.339,"endTime":1330.672,"body":"facilitated this whole thing."},{"startTime":1330.672,"endTime":1331.015,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1331.091,"endTime":1333.453,"body":", I wasn't involved, I wasn't"},{"startTime":1331.091,"endTime":1333.453,"body":"even committed, to be honest."},{"startTime":1333.453,"endTime":1333.872,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1334.348,"endTime":1337.234,"body":"The only thing that was the hardest"},{"startTime":1334.348,"endTime":1337.234,"body":"part for me out all this, is to"},{"startTime":1337.577,"endTime":1339.52,"body":"convince the company to pull out."},{"startTime":1339.605,"endTime":1342.72,"body":"They're like, But this is our,"},{"startTime":1339.605,"endTime":1342.72,"body":"No, it's not our user conference."},{"startTime":1342.72,"endTime":1343.491,"body":"Think of the words."},{"startTime":1343.496,"endTime":1344.434,"body":"User conference."},{"startTime":1344.434,"endTime":1345.634,"body":"Where to say our name in there."},{"startTime":1345.777,"endTime":1347.091,"body":"It doesn't pull out."},{"startTime":1347.091,"endTime":1350.434,"body":"Leave them be, That was the"},{"startTime":1347.091,"endTime":1350.434,"body":"hardest part with leadership."},{"startTime":1350.439,"endTime":1352.177,"body":"Like, you gonna leave them alone?"},{"startTime":1352.234,"endTime":1353.663,"body":"Oh, they'll come up with"},{"startTime":1352.234,"endTime":1353.663,"body":"all kinds of things."},{"startTime":1353.72,"endTime":1354.548,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1354.577,"endTime":1357.834,"body":"We want them to imagine they"},{"startTime":1354.577,"endTime":1357.834,"body":"did that with their teams."},{"startTime":1357.948,"endTime":1358.263,"body":"Whoa."},{"startTime":1358.377,"endTime":1359.405,"body":"With the, Oh wow."},{"startTime":1359.472,"endTime":1362.32,"body":"I mean, it's not the concept,"},{"startTime":1359.472,"endTime":1362.32,"body":"the little sidebar, but anyway."},{"startTime":1362.434,"endTime":1362.663,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1362.667,"endTime":1364.72,"body":"So Scrum to scan, do a lot."},{"startTime":1364.92,"endTime":1366.291,"body":"Just think outside the box."},{"startTime":1366.663,"endTime":1367.405,"body":"Who does."},{"startTime":1367.882,"endTime":1371.558,"body":"Finding techniques for"},{"startTime":1367.882,"endTime":1371.558,"body":"product goal definition."},{"startTime":1371.729,"endTime":1374.844,"body":"Who does finding techniques"},{"startTime":1371.729,"endTime":1374.844,"body":"for product backlog management?"},{"startTime":1374.844,"endTime":1376.444,"body":"Who does that when"},{"startTime":1374.844,"endTime":1376.444,"body":"there's no scrum master?"},{"startTime":1376.844,"endTime":1379.329,"body":"Aside from, obviously aside from"},{"startTime":1376.844,"endTime":1379.329,"body":"the product manager, like it's"},{"startTime":1379.329,"endTime":1382.272,"body":"all in the product managers to be"},{"startTime":1379.329,"endTime":1382.272,"body":"like, Hey, go figure out new ways"},{"startTime":1382.272,"endTime":1384.986,"body":"to do your job or new ways to be"},{"startTime":1382.272,"endTime":1384.986,"body":"affected throughout the organization."},{"startTime":1385.463,"endTime":1386.863,"body":"Who does it in real life?"},{"startTime":1386.92,"endTime":1388.091,"body":"Very few people separate."},{"startTime":1388.091,"endTime":1391.053,"body":"So I would separate that into two."},{"startTime":1391.529,"endTime":1397.11,"body":"I would say that product backlog"},{"startTime":1391.529,"endTime":1397.11,"body":"management, the most sensible if the"},{"startTime":1397.186,"endTime":1403.939,"body":"if the scrum master is not available is"},{"startTime":1397.186,"endTime":1403.939,"body":"obviously the, is product manager owner."},{"startTime":1404.415,"endTime":1407.682,"body":"And if they're not available, I"},{"startTime":1404.415,"endTime":1407.682,"body":"think given your, what you were"},{"startTime":1407.686,"endTime":1410.053,"body":"saying there is, is the dev team."},{"startTime":1410.396,"endTime":1415.577,"body":"I mean, they're the closest to and should"},{"startTime":1410.396,"endTime":1415.577,"body":"hopefully have had communication and,"},{"startTime":1415.577,"endTime":1419.005,"body":"and have some understanding of, of what's"},{"startTime":1415.577,"endTime":1419.005,"body":"coming up in the backlog if we're having"},{"startTime":1419.01,"endTime":1420.405,"body":"some refinements and things like that."},{"startTime":1420.41,"endTime":1423.458,"body":"Think of it from the perspective"},{"startTime":1420.41,"endTime":1423.458,"body":"of like we've just gone through an"},{"startTime":1423.458,"endTime":1427.186,"body":"agile transformation and we don't"},{"startTime":1423.458,"endTime":1427.186,"body":"have Scrum masters who participates"},{"startTime":1427.272,"endTime":1432.344,"body":"in helping make sure that we've"},{"startTime":1427.272,"endTime":1432.344,"body":"effectively communicated product goals."},{"startTime":1432.82,"endTime":1435.791,"body":"."},{"startTime":1432.82,"endTime":1435.791,"body":"So goals was something separate I"},{"startTime":1435.934,"endTime":1436.791,"body":"from a leadership, they are separate."},{"startTime":1436.791,"endTime":1437.305,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1437.31,"endTime":1437.439,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1437.444,"endTime":1441.896,"body":"So, so yes, I, I kind of took the"},{"startTime":1437.444,"endTime":1441.896,"body":"back backlog separate, and, and I"},{"startTime":1441.901,"endTime":1442.924,"body":"thought that was the easier one."},{"startTime":1442.929,"endTime":1448.182,"body":"But from a goal definition perspective"},{"startTime":1442.929,"endTime":1448.182,"body":"that to your point earlier, really"},{"startTime":1448.182,"endTime":1452.496,"body":"should filter down from leadership"},{"startTime":1448.182,"endTime":1452.496,"body":"and be based on the strategy."},{"startTime":1452.591,"endTime":1455.22,"body":"If we're going through an agile"},{"startTime":1452.591,"endTime":1455.22,"body":"transformation, the assumption is that"},{"startTime":1455.22,"endTime":1458.648,"body":"we have people invested in leadership"},{"startTime":1455.22,"endTime":1458.648,"body":"that want to make this happen."},{"startTime":1459.029,"endTime":1460.891,"body":"But my point is, yeah, you"},{"startTime":1459.029,"endTime":1460.891,"body":"can see, I wanna jump in."},{"startTime":1460.891,"endTime":1466.272,"body":"In an ideal world the there's a lot"},{"startTime":1460.891,"endTime":1466.272,"body":"of stakeholders, but that product"},{"startTime":1466.277,"endTime":1468.301,"body":"goal should be driven from the."},{"startTime":1468.701,"endTime":1471.015,"body":"Vision or goal of the organization."},{"startTime":1471.015,"endTime":1471.072,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1471.072,"endTime":1473.958,"body":"And a lot of stakeholders could be"},{"startTime":1471.072,"endTime":1473.958,"body":"involved in that, but it should be"},{"startTime":1473.958,"endTime":1476.958,"body":"driven ultimately from leadership as"},{"startTime":1473.958,"endTime":1476.958,"body":"the organization that's done agile"},{"startTime":1476.958,"endTime":1480.244,"body":"transformation and decided not to hire"},{"startTime":1476.958,"endTime":1480.244,"body":"the people that can make it happen."},{"startTime":1480.263,"endTime":1484.624,"body":"I agree with all y'all and blink"},{"startTime":1480.263,"endTime":1484.624,"body":"twice if you're in pain and you've"},{"startTime":1484.624,"endTime":1488.377,"body":"been traumatized by , not having a"},{"startTime":1484.624,"endTime":1488.377,"body":"strategy ah, like I agree with you."},{"startTime":1488.377,"endTime":1489.805,"body":"That's what should happen."},{"startTime":1490.282,"endTime":1493.691,"body":"And like I think everyone"},{"startTime":1490.282,"endTime":1493.691,"body":"probably has been in an"},{"startTime":1493.691,"endTime":1495.567,"body":"organization where things worked."},{"startTime":1496.044,"endTime":1500.272,"body":"Maybe not everyone, but like I, and I"},{"startTime":1496.044,"endTime":1500.272,"body":"know for a fact that Om has been in an"},{"startTime":1500.272,"endTime":1504.501,"body":"organization where things were working"},{"startTime":1500.272,"endTime":1504.501,"body":"and then they changed leadership to"},{"startTime":1504.501,"endTime":1506.072,"body":"somebody who really didn't get it."},{"startTime":1506.444,"endTime":1511.134,"body":"And now, You feel like you're back to"},{"startTime":1506.444,"endTime":1511.134,"body":"square one, where there's no vision"},{"startTime":1511.248,"endTime":1512.62,"body":"coming down from your leadership."},{"startTime":1512.848,"endTime":1516.496,"body":"So you're in, you're in the product"},{"startTime":1512.848,"endTime":1516.496,"body":"position of saying, my product goal"},{"startTime":1516.496,"endTime":1521.172,"body":"should be extrapolated down from"},{"startTime":1516.496,"endTime":1521.172,"body":"the organizational level and in some"},{"startTime":1521.172,"endTime":1522.315,"body":"way, shape, or form from the vision."},{"startTime":1522.791,"endTime":1527.144,"body":"And now now it's, it's"},{"startTime":1522.791,"endTime":1527.144,"body":"not for whatever reason."},{"startTime":1527.62,"endTime":1532.248,"body":"And all of this is super easy to say,"},{"startTime":1527.62,"endTime":1532.248,"body":"Well, well, I got my little silo."},{"startTime":1532.391,"endTime":1534.391,"body":"This is a product problem, right?"},{"startTime":1534.867,"endTime":1538.744,"body":"Somebody else's job, leadership,"},{"startTime":1534.867,"endTime":1538.744,"body":"job, product, owner's job."},{"startTime":1539.22,"endTime":1539.477,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1539.791,"endTime":1541.563,"body":"But we're not talking about"},{"startTime":1539.791,"endTime":1541.563,"body":"any of those people today."},{"startTime":1541.591,"endTime":1543.448,"body":"We're talking about"},{"startTime":1541.591,"endTime":1543.448,"body":"the scrum master today."},{"startTime":1543.924,"endTime":1547.239,"body":"So the scrum master"},{"startTime":1543.924,"endTime":1547.239,"body":"has to have techniques."},{"startTime":1547.696,"endTime":1551.153,"body":"To coach up in the organization,"},{"startTime":1547.696,"endTime":1551.153,"body":"which we might talk about this on"},{"startTime":1551.153,"endTime":1554.42,"body":"a separate podcast, which may or"},{"startTime":1551.153,"endTime":1554.42,"body":"may not come after this podcast."},{"startTime":1554.839,"endTime":1555.067,"body":"Sorry."},{"startTime":1555.067,"endTime":1556.124,"body":"I will maybe, I don't know."},{"startTime":1556.429,"endTime":1561.11,"body":"Where unless it doesn't, where  they are"},{"startTime":1556.429,"endTime":1561.11,"body":"empowered to climb in the organization"},{"startTime":1561.282,"endTime":1565.053,"body":"at whatever level they need to climb to,"},{"startTime":1561.282,"endTime":1565.053,"body":"all the way to the top, whatever, doesn't"},{"startTime":1565.053,"endTime":1571.186,"body":"matter to say we have an issue with, we"},{"startTime":1565.053,"endTime":1571.186,"body":"are not getting the vision that we need."},{"startTime":1571.472,"endTime":1573.929,"body":"I'm only speaking from my"},{"startTime":1571.472,"endTime":1573.929,"body":"experience a lot of times."},{"startTime":1574.405,"endTime":1579.863,"body":". The issue here that I've observed is"},{"startTime":1574.405,"endTime":1579.863,"body":"the, the person in the role of the"},{"startTime":1579.863,"endTime":1585.072,"body":"scrum master is I don't know if afraid"},{"startTime":1579.863,"endTime":1585.072,"body":"is a good way to say it, but they,"},{"startTime":1585.329,"endTime":1590.215,"body":"they, they are, they're not confident"},{"startTime":1585.329,"endTime":1590.215,"body":"that it is their job to climb all the"},{"startTime":1590.215,"endTime":1593.244,"body":"way up in the organization as far as I"},{"startTime":1590.215,"endTime":1593.244,"body":"can go to get their problem resolved."},{"startTime":1593.31,"endTime":1595.986,"body":"I should take this back to the"},{"startTime":1593.31,"endTime":1595.986,"body":"experience, I was a product person"},{"startTime":1595.986,"endTime":1602.101,"body":"in the organization, but I also was"},{"startTime":1595.986,"endTime":1602.101,"body":"charged with the Agile implementation."},{"startTime":1602.101,"endTime":1604.901,"body":"So it was like a pseudo agile coach."},{"startTime":1605.377,"endTime":1606.491,"body":"But I was a product."},{"startTime":1606.886,"endTime":1608.344,"body":"Manager in that organization."},{"startTime":1608.572,"endTime":1611.829,"body":"They did have a scr, they brought"},{"startTime":1608.572,"endTime":1611.829,"body":"on a scrum master after I started"},{"startTime":1612.239,"endTime":1614.867,"body":"to do that job full time, cuz"},{"startTime":1612.239,"endTime":1614.867,"body":"it was, it was a full-time job."},{"startTime":1615.344,"endTime":1618.744,"body":"And in that organization I can't even"},{"startTime":1615.344,"endTime":1618.744,"body":"remember why I was telling the story."},{"startTime":1618.982,"endTime":1624.71,"body":"Oh, oh, because in that organization"},{"startTime":1618.982,"endTime":1624.71,"body":"I felt empowered to coach all the"},{"startTime":1624.739,"endTime":1626.482,"body":"way up to the top, to the CEO level."},{"startTime":1626.91,"endTime":1627.196,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1627.339,"endTime":1630.396,"body":"But I could, I could clearly"},{"startTime":1627.339,"endTime":1630.396,"body":"see other scrum masters."},{"startTime":1630.872,"endTime":1633.358,"body":"Saying, Oh, well these these"},{"startTime":1630.872,"endTime":1633.358,"body":"people don't want to talk to me."},{"startTime":1633.358,"endTime":1635.234,"body":"Or they don't wanna"},{"startTime":1633.358,"endTime":1635.234,"body":"listen to what I'm saying."},{"startTime":1635.52,"endTime":1640.92,"body":"They, they where people feel disempowered,"},{"startTime":1635.52,"endTime":1640.92,"body":"where, where people don't feel like"},{"startTime":1640.92,"endTime":1645.491,"body":"what they would say or what they would"},{"startTime":1640.92,"endTime":1645.491,"body":"recommend is taken into consideration or"},{"startTime":1645.491,"endTime":1647.948,"body":"even heard take, heard taken seriously."},{"startTime":1647.948,"endTime":1651.024,"body":"There's a lot of different things and,"},{"startTime":1647.948,"endTime":1651.024,"body":"what I'm trying to wrap this bullet"},{"startTime":1651.024,"endTime":1656.82,"body":"point up about how finding techniques"},{"startTime":1651.024,"endTime":1656.82,"body":"for effective product goal definition."},{"startTime":1657.239,"endTime":1661.553,"body":"If you cannot extrapolate a strategy,"},{"startTime":1657.239,"endTime":1661.553,"body":"you need to climb in the organization"},{"startTime":1661.982,"endTime":1665.572,"body":"potentially to the very top to"},{"startTime":1661.982,"endTime":1665.572,"body":"say, Hey, we're having difficulty"},{"startTime":1665.858,"endTime":1667.201,"body":"figuring out what our strategy."},{"startTime":1667.677,"endTime":1669.277,"body":"That's, that's kind of"},{"startTime":1667.677,"endTime":1669.277,"body":"where I'm going with this."},{"startTime":1669.477,"endTime":1672.563,"body":"And this might not be useful to people"},{"startTime":1669.477,"endTime":1672.563,"body":"listening to the podcast cuz they"},{"startTime":1672.563,"endTime":1677.334,"body":"might say, Look, well I'm in, I'm at"},{"startTime":1672.563,"endTime":1677.334,"body":"this giant multinational corporation."},{"startTime":1677.339,"endTime":1679.563,"body":"I'm not gonna go ask the ceo."},{"startTime":1679.934,"endTime":1682.877,"body":"Well you don't have to go all the way to"},{"startTime":1679.934,"endTime":1682.877,"body":"the CEO in that kind of an organization."},{"startTime":1682.882,"endTime":1683.048,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1683.048,"endTime":1684.305,"body":"You can go as high as you can."},{"startTime":1684.677,"endTime":1686.105,"body":"So I would say yeah, definitely."},{"startTime":1686.163,"endTime":1689.505,"body":"One of the techniques since that's the"},{"startTime":1686.163,"endTime":1689.505,"body":"bullet point we're we're talking about is,"},{"startTime":1689.982,"endTime":1691.734,"body":"first of all, don't be afraid to coach up."},{"startTime":1691.753,"endTime":1692.01,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1692.01,"endTime":1693.924,"body":"Get, get out there and go up."},{"startTime":1694.182,"endTime":1698.191,"body":"But if you're saying, Oh, I can't get"},{"startTime":1694.182,"endTime":1698.191,"body":"to my vp because this calendar's full"},{"startTime":1698.191,"endTime":1702.848,"body":"for the next month, I go stake out"},{"startTime":1698.191,"endTime":1702.848,"body":"outside their office Gorilla tactics."},{"startTime":1702.848,"endTime":1707.491,"body":"I wanna say for people who are scared"},{"startTime":1702.848,"endTime":1707.491,"body":"of trying to coach to that level, this"},{"startTime":1707.491,"endTime":1709.548,"body":"is a product goal, this is strategy."},{"startTime":1709.548,"endTime":1713.32,"body":"This is a, this is something you"},{"startTime":1709.548,"endTime":1713.32,"body":"should expect to be coming down at,"},{"startTime":1713.52,"endTime":1715.32,"body":"at every level in the leadership."},{"startTime":1715.348,"endTime":1718.005,"body":"They should be repeating"},{"startTime":1715.348,"endTime":1718.005,"body":"the strategy every level."},{"startTime":1718.005,"endTime":1720.282,"body":"If we go back to the"},{"startTime":1718.005,"endTime":1720.282,"body":"John Kotter  book Sure."},{"startTime":1720.567,"endTime":1723.024,"body":"Everybody should be"},{"startTime":1720.567,"endTime":1723.024,"body":"repeating the strategy."},{"startTime":1723.501,"endTime":1725.044,"body":"So it shouldn't be a guess."},{"startTime":1725.101,"endTime":1728.472,"body":"It should be like, Oh my goodness,"},{"startTime":1725.101,"endTime":1728.472,"body":"I've heard this so many times."},{"startTime":1728.901,"endTime":1731.215,"body":"This is the last thing I"},{"startTime":1728.901,"endTime":1731.215,"body":"need to hear more about"},{"startTime":1731.31,"endTime":1736.558,"body":"the scrum master needs to be really"},{"startTime":1731.31,"endTime":1736.558,"body":"empowered and not intimidated, Right?"},{"startTime":1736.729,"endTime":1739.872,"body":"To be able to be comfortable"},{"startTime":1736.729,"endTime":1739.872,"body":"in that coaching up."},{"startTime":1740.348,"endTime":1745.491,"body":"So they need to be also given the"},{"startTime":1740.348,"endTime":1745.491,"body":"coaching and encouragement and even the"},{"startTime":1745.491,"endTime":1750.929,"body":"opportunity and potential kind of help"},{"startTime":1745.491,"endTime":1750.929,"body":"maybe from  a fellow or more seasoned"},{"startTime":1750.977,"endTime":1756.158,"body":"scrum master or an agile coach so to,"},{"startTime":1750.977,"endTime":1756.158,"body":"to get their feet wet in, in doing that."},{"startTime":1756.158,"endTime":1761.824,"body":"But I think all of this re is, is"},{"startTime":1756.158,"endTime":1761.824,"body":"really wonderful sounding  and in"},{"startTime":1761.824,"endTime":1766.624,"body":"an ideal world, but it speaks to the"},{"startTime":1761.824,"endTime":1766.624,"body":"culture of the organization, right?"},{"startTime":1766.967,"endTime":1775.253,"body":"So if we have a scrum master that is"},{"startTime":1766.967,"endTime":1775.253,"body":"empowered to speak up to leadership, then"},{"startTime":1775.253,"endTime":1778.224,"body":"we probably have empowered teams as well."},{"startTime":1778.224,"endTime":1779.139,"body":"We have a, a, a good."},{"startTime":1779.615,"endTime":1782.815,"body":"Culture, but I think that that's"},{"startTime":1779.615,"endTime":1782.815,"body":"not necessarily the case in"},{"startTime":1782.815,"endTime":1784.472,"body":"a lot of, in a lot of places."},{"startTime":1784.948,"endTime":1788.796,"body":"And Scrum masters are squashed"},{"startTime":1784.948,"endTime":1788.796,"body":"along with a lot of other people,"},{"startTime":1789.272,"endTime":1789.758,"body":"all right."},{"startTime":1789.758,"endTime":1792.101,"body":"So second bullet out of four."},{"startTime":1792.339,"endTime":1792.567,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1792.567,"endTime":1793.139,"body":"Second bullet."},{"startTime":1793.167,"endTime":1796.767,"body":"Helping the Scrum team"},{"startTime":1793.167,"endTime":1796.767,"body":"understand the need for clear and"},{"startTime":1796.767,"endTime":1799.367,"body":"concise product backlog items."},{"startTime":1799.682,"endTime":1804.772,"body":"I feel this this item encapsulates a good"},{"startTime":1799.682,"endTime":1804.772,"body":"deal of the BA skillset, like the, the"},{"startTime":1804.777,"endTime":1808.896,"body":"idea of, and, and, and this is one that"},{"startTime":1804.777,"endTime":1808.896,"body":"I deal with a fair bit of time as well"},{"startTime":1809.105,"endTime":1812.467,"body":"Sometimes I'll split items for"},{"startTime":1809.105,"endTime":1812.467,"body":"developers and say, Hey we need to"},{"startTime":1812.467,"endTime":1816.553,"body":"do feature A, but like, this tiny"},{"startTime":1812.467,"endTime":1816.553,"body":"subset of feature A is not important."},{"startTime":1816.558,"endTime":1818.353,"body":"We'll do that as a separate"},{"startTime":1816.558,"endTime":1818.353,"body":"item and they'll say, Well,"},{"startTime":1818.496,"endTime":1819.839,"body":"it's really easy to do together."},{"startTime":1819.896,"endTime":1821.124,"body":"Why don't we just keep it all together?"},{"startTime":1821.553,"endTime":1824.591,"body":"And like, because vertical"},{"startTime":1821.553,"endTime":1824.591,"body":"slicing, because we need to Right."},{"startTime":1824.596,"endTime":1826.02,"body":"Take, take a little bit of everything."},{"startTime":1826.363,"endTime":1829.877,"body":"I'm like, Well since we're in that"},{"startTime":1826.363,"endTime":1829.877,"body":"piece of the code, let's, So sometimes"},{"startTime":1829.882,"endTime":1833.553,"body":"it's negotiating with the business,"},{"startTime":1829.882,"endTime":1833.553,"body":"but in my experience, a lot of"},{"startTime":1833.553,"endTime":1837.324,"body":"times, especially with your, if you"},{"startTime":1833.553,"endTime":1837.324,"body":"are with teams don't have a lot of"},{"startTime":1837.324,"endTime":1842.31,"body":"experience with writing stories and"},{"startTime":1837.324,"endTime":1842.31,"body":"breaking down,  requests from users."},{"startTime":1842.653,"endTime":1844.872,"body":"This could be going back"},{"startTime":1842.653,"endTime":1844.872,"body":"and forth with the team too."},{"startTime":1845.215,"endTime":1846.329,"body":"Clear and concise."},{"startTime":1846.472,"endTime":1851.591,"body":"Clear and concise also means, To me in"},{"startTime":1846.472,"endTime":1851.591,"body":"the product position you don't start"},{"startTime":1851.591,"endTime":1856.344,"body":"working on things that have blockers"},{"startTime":1851.591,"endTime":1856.344,"body":"that are not ready for you to work on,"},{"startTime":1856.391,"endTime":1860.524,"body":"and also you don't work on things that"},{"startTime":1856.391,"endTime":1860.524,"body":"have not been vetted through some kind"},{"startTime":1860.524,"endTime":1865.267,"body":"of discovery process, which is a sort of"},{"startTime":1860.524,"endTime":1865.267,"body":"a, it is like a pseudo involved in this."},{"startTime":1865.267,"endTime":1868.334,"body":"So I like, I could, I could, we can"},{"startTime":1865.267,"endTime":1868.334,"body":"take that one offline for a second."},{"startTime":1868.334,"endTime":1871.402,"body":"Just say let them figure it"},{"startTime":1868.334,"endTime":1871.402,"body":"out during a sprint maybe."},{"startTime":1871.402,"endTime":1872.487,"body":"But Yeah, I agree with that."},{"startTime":1872.487,"endTime":1874.287,"body":"I think, I think you hit that one night."},{"startTime":1874.764,"endTime":1879.021,"body":"I think the other thing that a scrum"},{"startTime":1874.764,"endTime":1879.021,"body":"team, so scrum team needs to understand"},{"startTime":1879.021,"endTime":1880.621,"body":"clear and concise back on online."},{"startTime":1880.821,"endTime":1884.706,"body":"Where the scrum master comes in is if"},{"startTime":1880.821,"endTime":1884.706,"body":"you don't have a BA specifically Yeah."},{"startTime":1884.735,"endTime":1888.078,"body":"Is to encourage the team to not"},{"startTime":1884.735,"endTime":1888.078,"body":"start work on something that's vague"},{"startTime":1888.392,"endTime":1890.078,"body":"or something that has a dependency."},{"startTime":1890.106,"endTime":1890.306,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1890.364,"endTime":1893.897,"body":"Flip side of that, encourage"},{"startTime":1890.364,"endTime":1893.897,"body":"the product owner to say you"},{"startTime":1893.897,"endTime":1897.944,"body":"prioritize this high, however, We"},{"startTime":1893.897,"endTime":1897.944,"body":"cannot work on it because Yeah."},{"startTime":1897.944,"endTime":1899.087,"body":"There's missing information."},{"startTime":1899.287,"endTime":1899.344,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1899.544,"endTime":1902.43,"body":"There's a dependency on external"},{"startTime":1899.544,"endTime":1902.43,"body":"teams or internal, whatever it is."},{"startTime":1902.43,"endTime":1902.687,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1903.002,"endTime":1904.63,"body":"Make that visible ahead of time."},{"startTime":1904.635,"endTime":1905.059,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1905.064,"endTime":1905.183,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1905.287,"endTime":1908.23,"body":"And there are techniques, I know"},{"startTime":1905.287,"endTime":1908.23,"body":"we're talking about techniques"},{"startTime":1908.23,"endTime":1910.544,"body":"in this bullet, but there are"},{"startTime":1908.23,"endTime":1910.544,"body":"techniques they can deploy here."},{"startTime":1910.573,"endTime":1915.116,"body":"You know, like making sure you use things"},{"startTime":1910.573,"endTime":1915.116,"body":"like definition of ready and so forth."},{"startTime":1915.116,"endTime":1915.516,"body":"Sure, sure."},{"startTime":1915.516,"endTime":1917.573,"body":"Make sure that things are known enough."},{"startTime":1917.573,"endTime":1920.202,"body":"Well, I like, I like sometimes"},{"startTime":1917.573,"endTime":1920.202,"body":"I like the shortcut definition"},{"startTime":1920.202,"endTime":1922.83,"body":"already, cuz definition already"},{"startTime":1920.202,"endTime":1922.83,"body":"could be contentious for some people."},{"startTime":1922.83,"endTime":1925.287,"body":"Cause they're like, Oh, you"},{"startTime":1922.83,"endTime":1925.287,"body":"just scope creeping or whatever."},{"startTime":1925.592,"endTime":1928.373,"body":"That's probably why it hasn't made his"},{"startTime":1925.592,"endTime":1928.373,"body":"way of the scrum guide definition of ready"},{"startTime":1928.397,"endTime":1932.097,"body":"but,  I like to think about this one"},{"startTime":1928.397,"endTime":1932.097,"body":"is like, if you can't get unanimous"},{"startTime":1932.325,"endTime":1936.068,"body":"approval from your team to say this"},{"startTime":1932.325,"endTime":1936.068,"body":"item is ready for us to work on."},{"startTime":1936.164,"endTime":1944.125,"body":"I've seen some teams who go as far"},{"startTime":1936.164,"endTime":1944.125,"body":"to put a status in their ALM tool of."},{"startTime":1944.602,"endTime":1945.287,"body":"Refined."},{"startTime":1945.687,"endTime":1949.259,"body":"This is something to indicate that"},{"startTime":1945.687,"endTime":1949.259,"body":"the team has agreed that this item is"},{"startTime":1949.259,"endTime":1953.84,"body":"refined and ready to be pulled into"},{"startTime":1949.259,"endTime":1953.84,"body":"any sprint, that it basically indicates"},{"startTime":1953.844,"endTime":1955.497,"body":"that discovery work is at an end."},{"startTime":1955.502,"endTime":1959.583,"body":"That team knows how they are going"},{"startTime":1955.502,"endTime":1959.583,"body":"to implement this and they are ready."},{"startTime":1959.668,"endTime":1962.383,"body":"Or maybe they don't know, but"},{"startTime":1959.668,"endTime":1962.383,"body":"they, the team is ready to talk"},{"startTime":1962.383,"endTime":1964.268,"body":"about implementing this basically."},{"startTime":1964.306,"endTime":1964.611,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1964.611,"endTime":1964.868,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1964.868,"endTime":1968.268,"body":"A state or a tag or maybe"},{"startTime":1964.868,"endTime":1968.268,"body":"a confidence vote, right?"},{"startTime":1968.273,"endTime":1968.44,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1968.44,"endTime":1968.516,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1968.521,"endTime":1970.154,"body":"Anything for and above confidence vote."},{"startTime":1970.154,"endTime":1970.383,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1970.383,"endTime":1970.611,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1970.616,"endTime":1971.04,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1971.211,"endTime":1975.183,"body":"In my experience of what, one of the"},{"startTime":1971.211,"endTime":1975.183,"body":"ways that teams have, have done this,"},{"startTime":1975.183,"endTime":1978.192,"body":"and, and this was the suggestion"},{"startTime":1975.183,"endTime":1978.192,"body":"of that scrum master, was we used"},{"startTime":1978.192,"endTime":1979.849,"body":"story points on this particular team."},{"startTime":1980.192,"endTime":1986.354,"body":"And once, once it was ready, And not"},{"startTime":1980.192,"endTime":1986.354,"body":"until it was ready would we point a story."},{"startTime":1986.497,"endTime":1986.64,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1986.64,"endTime":1988.725,"body":"So if it had points,"},{"startTime":1986.64,"endTime":1988.725,"body":"that means it was ready."},{"startTime":1989.202,"endTime":1990.259,"body":"So that's what we used."},{"startTime":1990.259,"endTime":1990.516,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1990.516,"endTime":1990.517,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1990.522,"endTime":1990.554,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1990.573,"endTime":1991.202,"body":"I could see that."},{"startTime":1991.344,"endTime":1992.03,"body":"Oh, that's what we used."},{"startTime":1992.506,"endTime":1996.221,"body":"I could see that, but it would"},{"startTime":1992.506,"endTime":1996.221,"body":"be, it would be also good only"},{"startTime":1996.221,"endTime":1998.783,"body":"because I'm in the middle of"},{"startTime":1996.221,"endTime":1998.783,"body":"doing this right now where I work."},{"startTime":1999.021,"endTime":2006.43,"body":"It would be also good to reflect that"},{"startTime":1999.021,"endTime":2006.43,"body":"somehow in the status of the item."},{"startTime":2006.906,"endTime":2010.654,"body":"I'm trying not to get into a waterfall"},{"startTime":2006.906,"endTime":2010.654,"body":"here, but, it would be good to align"},{"startTime":2010.654,"endTime":2015.902,"body":"at a feature level to say, we can't"},{"startTime":2010.654,"endTime":2015.902,"body":"begin implementing this functionality"},{"startTime":2016.016,"endTime":2019.016,"body":"that we know is gonna take a while"},{"startTime":2016.016,"endTime":2019.016,"body":"to implement or whatever, until"},{"startTime":2019.021,"endTime":2020.702,"body":"certain questions are answered."},{"startTime":2021.178,"endTime":2024.606,"body":"I would like, I, the product person, I"},{"startTime":2021.178,"endTime":2024.606,"body":"know we're talking about Scrum master,"},{"startTime":2025.006,"endTime":2030.73,"body":"I, the product person would like to"},{"startTime":2025.006,"endTime":2030.73,"body":"have some kind of indicator to see"},{"startTime":2030.735,"endTime":2034.502,"body":"on a co board at a high level, at a"},{"startTime":2030.735,"endTime":2034.502,"body":"leadership level or at a product level."},{"startTime":2034.506,"endTime":2038.497,"body":"I'll say at a product level, we're"},{"startTime":2034.506,"endTime":2038.497,"body":"producing a mobile app functionality."},{"startTime":2038.497,"endTime":2040.668,"body":"A we know every customer wants."},{"startTime":2040.668,"endTime":2041.783,"body":"Every customer needs."},{"startTime":2041.897,"endTime":2045.187,"body":"We've got these surveys, this"},{"startTime":2041.897,"endTime":2045.187,"body":"testing, whatever we did that proves"},{"startTime":2045.187,"endTime":2046.768,"body":"we wanna do this functionality."},{"startTime":2046.773,"endTime":2046.978,"body":"B."},{"startTime":2047.454,"endTime":2048.997,"body":"We've put some surveys out there."},{"startTime":2048.997,"endTime":2050.94,"body":"We've got some details that"},{"startTime":2048.997,"endTime":2050.94,"body":"we don't have enough yet."},{"startTime":2050.94,"endTime":2053.14,"body":"We've got maybe like 20%"},{"startTime":2050.94,"endTime":2053.14,"body":"of people responding to it."},{"startTime":2053.14,"endTime":2056.444,"body":"That's not enough for us to spend"},{"startTime":2053.14,"endTime":2056.444,"body":"money on this functionality."},{"startTime":2056.444,"endTime":2060.835,"body":"C some executives said they really want"},{"startTime":2056.444,"endTime":2060.835,"body":"we're bringing it into our discovery"},{"startTime":2060.835,"endTime":2062.892,"body":"process to see if it's actually worth it."},{"startTime":2062.892,"endTime":2064.235,"body":"If people are using it."},{"startTime":2064.492,"endTime":2066.521,"body":"If we're validating, we're validating."},{"startTime":2066.997,"endTime":2068.168,"body":"We actually need to do that."},{"startTime":2068.397,"endTime":2072.654,"body":"So I would like to see on a I"},{"startTime":2068.397,"endTime":2072.654,"body":"think of a kanban board right on,"},{"startTime":2072.683,"endTime":2074.997,"body":"on some type of board somewhere."},{"startTime":2075.473,"endTime":2079.121,"body":"At a high level, this thing's"},{"startTime":2075.473,"endTime":2079.121,"body":"been vetted and we approved."},{"startTime":2079.597,"endTime":2083.997,"body":"This thing's been vetted and we still need"},{"startTime":2079.597,"endTime":2083.997,"body":"some more experiments, some more evidence."},{"startTime":2084.225,"endTime":2089.611,"body":"Evidence and this thing, we vetted it and"},{"startTime":2084.225,"endTime":2089.611,"body":"it like it failed our vetting process."},{"startTime":2089.611,"endTime":2091.84,"body":"We don't see any reason"},{"startTime":2089.611,"endTime":2091.84,"body":"we should implement that."},{"startTime":2091.84,"endTime":2094.468,"body":"There's no dollars there,"},{"startTime":2091.84,"endTime":2094.468,"body":"there's no customer engagement."},{"startTime":2094.468,"endTime":2097.583,"body":"It's a good idea, but"},{"startTime":2094.468,"endTime":2097.583,"body":"there's no tangible benefit."},{"startTime":2097.725,"endTime":2104.63,"body":"I wanna see that before I invest dollars"},{"startTime":2097.725,"endTime":2104.63,"body":"from the development team that so like I,"},{"startTime":2104.63,"endTime":2110.344,"body":"I know I, I went way off the . I went way"},{"startTime":2104.63,"endTime":2110.344,"body":"off the rails to  to say the, the need for"},{"startTime":2110.344,"endTime":2113.497,"body":"a clear and concise product backlog item."},{"startTime":2113.64,"endTime":2117.811,"body":"The next bullet point is helping"},{"startTime":2113.64,"endTime":2117.811,"body":"establish empirical product"},{"startTime":2117.868,"endTime":2120.325,"body":"planning for a complex environment."},{"startTime":2120.802,"endTime":2125.316,"body":"Everything I just described if you,"},{"startTime":2120.802,"endTime":2125.316,"body":"the scrum master can take everything"},{"startTime":2125.373,"endTime":2130.278,"body":"that I, the product manager am doing,"},{"startTime":2125.373,"endTime":2130.278,"body":"are doing, am doing, am doing whatever."},{"startTime":2130.564,"endTime":2134.24,"body":", if you can take everything that I'm"},{"startTime":2130.564,"endTime":2134.24,"body":"doing there, I made it a contraction"},{"startTime":2134.24,"endTime":2136.087,"body":"so I can skate outta that one."},{"startTime":2136.287,"endTime":2140.859,"body":"If you can take everything I'm doing and"},{"startTime":2136.287,"endTime":2140.859,"body":"put it on a board that shows A to B to C"},{"startTime":2141.125,"endTime":2144.897,"body":"A, I need to try something B,"},{"startTime":2141.125,"endTime":2144.897,"body":"I'm trying to do something C,"},{"startTime":2144.925,"endTime":2146.125,"body":"it worked or it didn't work."},{"startTime":2146.602,"endTime":2150.402,"body":"If you, scrum manager can figure"},{"startTime":2146.602,"endTime":2150.402,"body":"out a way to visualize my work and"},{"startTime":2150.402,"endTime":2152.087,"body":"make it transparent to leadership."},{"startTime":2152.564,"endTime":2156.192,"body":"My myself, quite honestly, in the"},{"startTime":2152.564,"endTime":2156.192,"body":"other product managers and the team."},{"startTime":2156.668,"endTime":2161.087,"body":"you've helped me considerably"},{"startTime":2156.668,"endTime":2161.087,"body":"because I know most product people"},{"startTime":2161.344,"endTime":2164.059,"body":"in, again, only my experience, I'm"},{"startTime":2161.344,"endTime":2164.059,"body":"only speaking from my experience."},{"startTime":2164.535,"endTime":2168.706,"body":"They do this work I'm talking about,"},{"startTime":2164.535,"endTime":2168.706,"body":"yeah, hey, I need to do some AB testing."},{"startTime":2168.706,"endTime":2170.164,"body":"Hey, I need to survey some users."},{"startTime":2170.168,"endTime":2173.244,"body":"Hey, I need to figure out if people"},{"startTime":2170.168,"endTime":2173.244,"body":"if, if there's an appetite for this"},{"startTime":2173.244,"endTime":2177.178,"body":"functionality, but they don't necessarily"},{"startTime":2173.244,"endTime":2177.178,"body":"show it to everyone and they don't"},{"startTime":2177.178,"endTime":2179.206,"body":"necessarily bring it up at reviews."},{"startTime":2179.206,"endTime":2181.264,"body":"Every backlog, refinement or whatever."},{"startTime":2181.268,"endTime":2183.149,"body":"They, they're not necessarily"},{"startTime":2181.268,"endTime":2183.149,"body":"showing that work."},{"startTime":2183.387,"endTime":2186.559,"body":"in fact, I would say they're probably"},{"startTime":2183.387,"endTime":2186.559,"body":"trying to hide that, hide the work that"},{"startTime":2186.559,"endTime":2189.606,"body":"fails through this process from the team."},{"startTime":2189.606,"endTime":2191.854,"body":"So the team's not"},{"startTime":2189.606,"endTime":2191.854,"body":"distracted on this stuff."},{"startTime":2192.14,"endTime":2194.53,"body":"They get back to the"},{"startTime":2192.14,"endTime":2194.53,"body":"development stuff, which I like."},{"startTime":2194.587,"endTime":2196.016,"body":"I'm not saying that's a"},{"startTime":2194.587,"endTime":2196.016,"body":"good thing or a bad thing."},{"startTime":2196.016,"endTime":2197.359,"body":"I'm not, I'm not making"},{"startTime":2196.016,"endTime":2197.359,"body":"a statement about that."},{"startTime":2197.359,"endTime":2201.616,"body":"I'm just saying if I had a scrum master"},{"startTime":2197.359,"endTime":2201.616,"body":"who could show this stuff to, to show"},{"startTime":2201.621,"endTime":2203.644,"body":"the team, Hey, here's the product vision."},{"startTime":2204.121,"endTime":2205.606,"body":", here's a direction we want to go."},{"startTime":2205.864,"endTime":2210.368,"body":"Here's what your product manager is"},{"startTime":2205.864,"endTime":2210.368,"body":"trying to do, and here's what make,"},{"startTime":2210.368,"endTime":2212.111,"body":"here's what makes it through the funnel."},{"startTime":2212.587,"endTime":2213.787,"body":"Now here's what you need to do."},{"startTime":2214.054,"endTime":2217.902,"body":"I, I feel, I feel that would be like"},{"startTime":2214.054,"endTime":2217.902,"body":"that, that would make everyone feel"},{"startTime":2217.902,"endTime":2220.244,"body":"a lot better about where they're at."},{"startTime":2220.721,"endTime":2224.378,"body":"What you're describing sounds"},{"startTime":2220.721,"endTime":2224.378,"body":"pretty close, if not exactly the"},{"startTime":2224.378,"endTime":2226.235,"body":"same as a lean business case."},{"startTime":2226.502,"endTime":2227.616,"body":"You know where these things are."},{"startTime":2227.93,"endTime":2229.244,"body":"What's the market need, right?"},{"startTime":2229.244,"endTime":2231.187,"body":"What, what are potentially our markets?"},{"startTime":2231.387,"endTime":2234.244,"body":"What kind of gain benefit"},{"startTime":2231.387,"endTime":2234.244,"body":"will we get from this?"},{"startTime":2234.244,"endTime":2237.94,"body":"Is it greater adoption, bigger"},{"startTime":2234.244,"endTime":2237.94,"body":"market share higher revenues,"},{"startTime":2237.94,"endTime":2238.711,"body":"whatever it is, right?"},{"startTime":2238.74,"endTime":2243.111,"body":"All of that work should be done, but"},{"startTime":2238.74,"endTime":2243.111,"body":"if it's not being done, a scrum master"},{"startTime":2243.111,"endTime":2245.54,"body":"can help by providing that framework."},{"startTime":2246.016,"endTime":2249.244,"body":"They may not be able to fill out the"},{"startTime":2246.016,"endTime":2249.244,"body":"details, but they can provide the"},{"startTime":2249.244,"endTime":2250.844,"body":"framework to those that matter and."},{"startTime":2251.321,"endTime":2252.578,"body":"These are the things we need."},{"startTime":2252.806,"endTime":2254.321,"body":"So that's where they can really help."},{"startTime":2254.321,"endTime":2254.378,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2254.435,"endTime":2257.549,"body":"And if you're a product person, somebody"},{"startTime":2254.435,"endTime":2257.549,"body":"came to you and said, Here's a structured"},{"startTime":2257.549,"endTime":2259.521,"body":"way to do this, an easy way to do this."},{"startTime":2259.521,"endTime":2259.778,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2260.254,"endTime":2260.711,"body":"Great."},{"startTime":2260.883,"endTime":2264.225,"body":"It can be simple as well, it can be"},{"startTime":2260.883,"endTime":2264.225,"body":"just a spreadsheet that they've shared,"},{"startTime":2264.454,"endTime":2268.311,"body":"which has those relevant details on,"},{"startTime":2264.454,"endTime":2268.311,"body":"You can download these things too"},{"startTime":2268.311,"endTime":2270.225,"body":"from various,  from various websites."},{"startTime":2270.597,"endTime":2272.63,"body":"But yeah, that, that's the sort"},{"startTime":2270.597,"endTime":2272.63,"body":"of thing that I think where"},{"startTime":2272.63,"endTime":2273.859,"body":"a scrum master can add value."},{"startTime":2274.335,"endTime":2274.764,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":2274.764,"endTime":2279.392,"body":"I think that, so where they aren't"},{"startTime":2274.764,"endTime":2279.392,"body":"necessarily the the most appropriate"},{"startTime":2279.392,"endTime":2281.249,"body":"person in my mind to do this."},{"startTime":2281.249,"endTime":2281.506,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2281.511,"endTime":2285.278,"body":"So doing market analysis but being"},{"startTime":2281.511,"endTime":2285.278,"body":"aware and having some experience."},{"startTime":2285.754,"endTime":2290.392,"body":"How to do this and how to potentially"},{"startTime":2285.754,"endTime":2290.392,"body":"display this to your point so that"},{"startTime":2290.392,"endTime":2292.744,"body":"it makes sense across the board."},{"startTime":2292.749,"endTime":2296.202,"body":"So from product to leadership and and"},{"startTime":2292.749,"endTime":2296.202,"body":"development team, so on and so forth,"},{"startTime":2296.259,"endTime":2298.659,"body":"and creates ultimately that transparency."},{"startTime":2298.659,"endTime":2298.887,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2298.887,"endTime":2302.668,"body":"So Crum, so they're the translator"},{"startTime":2298.887,"endTime":2302.668,"body":"or the Scrum whisperer, right?"},{"startTime":2302.673,"endTime":2303.868,"body":"The translator of Scrum."},{"startTime":2303.868,"endTime":2308.492,"body":"So finding tools and opportunities and"},{"startTime":2303.868,"endTime":2308.492,"body":"ways and experimenting in different"},{"startTime":2308.492,"endTime":2314.278,"body":"ways to find opportunities to create"},{"startTime":2308.492,"endTime":2314.278,"body":"that transparency, I think is, is,"},{"startTime":2314.754,"endTime":2318.878,"body":"is per, is perfectly aligned with"},{"startTime":2314.754,"endTime":2318.878,"body":"what   a scrum a master should be doing."},{"startTime":2319.354,"endTime":2324.659,"body":"In regards to just the, the clear"},{"startTime":2319.354,"endTime":2324.659,"body":"and concise language, those, those"},{"startTime":2324.659,"endTime":2326.202,"body":"three words, clear and concise."},{"startTime":2326.23,"endTime":2327.23,"body":"Yeah, I wanna go back to that too."},{"startTime":2327.316,"endTime":2327.83,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2327.83,"endTime":2328.487,"body":"That, so."},{"startTime":2328.964,"endTime":2334.24,"body":"That can, it's very, it's very"},{"startTime":2328.964,"endTime":2334.24,"body":"ambiguous and can be used in my"},{"startTime":2334.24,"endTime":2339.116,"body":"experience, . So remember, I am coming"},{"startTime":2334.24,"endTime":2339.116,"body":"from not a development background,"},{"startTime":2339.487,"endTime":2343.059,"body":"so when it comes to writing stories,"},{"startTime":2339.487,"endTime":2343.059,"body":"I am absolutely writing them"},{"startTime":2343.059,"endTime":2344.864,"body":"from a user problem perspective."},{"startTime":2344.921,"endTime":2345.006,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2345.006,"endTime":2345.178,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2345.183,"endTime":2346.349,"body":"Here's my problem."},{"startTime":2346.825,"endTime":2351.825,"body":"I'm not going to, or I'm trying really"},{"startTime":2346.825,"endTime":2351.825,"body":"hard not to put in any resolution."},{"startTime":2351.825,"endTime":2355.254,"body":"Obviously, I don't have the ability"},{"startTime":2351.825,"endTime":2355.254,"body":"to write in particular code or say"},{"startTime":2355.254,"endTime":2357.168,"body":"which database to go to or whatever."},{"startTime":2357.511,"endTime":2361.34,"body":"But even so far as to say, I'd like"},{"startTime":2357.511,"endTime":2361.34,"body":"to have a modal, or I'd like to,"},{"startTime":2361.34,"endTime":2364.654,"body":"I, I, I need to be aware of those"},{"startTime":2361.34,"endTime":2364.654,"body":"things and say, Nope, I'm not gonna"},{"startTime":2364.654,"endTime":2370.73,"body":"ask for particular things as whatever"},{"startTime":2364.654,"endTime":2370.73,"body":"user I need to solve this problem,"},{"startTime":2370.73,"endTime":2370.816,"body":"mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2371.13,"endTime":2377.321,"body":", but clear and concise can"},{"startTime":2371.13,"endTime":2377.321,"body":"sometimes be translated to really"},{"startTime":2377.321,"endTime":2380.978,"body":"detailed, explicit instructional."},{"startTime":2381.264,"endTime":2385.606,"body":"Stories or whatever it is that you happen"},{"startTime":2381.264,"endTime":2385.606,"body":"to be using that wouldn't be concise then."},{"startTime":2386.083,"endTime":2386.197,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2386.483,"endTime":2387.511,"body":", that wouldn't be concise."},{"startTime":2387.511,"endTime":2387.711,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2387.711,"endTime":2389.911,"body":"If it's explicit, detailed,"},{"startTime":2387.711,"endTime":2389.911,"body":"that's the opposite."},{"startTime":2389.911,"endTime":2391.94,"body":"I mean that no concise, is that right?"},{"startTime":2391.94,"endTime":2393.568,"body":"Concise is succinct."},{"startTime":2394.044,"endTime":2395.616,"body":"Short, right To the point."},{"startTime":2395.616,"endTime":2396.987,"body":"As a user, I need this."},{"startTime":2396.987,"endTime":2399.159,"body":"Not, and, and you could go little."},{"startTime":2399.159,"endTime":2401.53,"body":"Well, I mean, I, I think you could,"},{"startTime":2399.159,"endTime":2401.53,"body":"What I'm thinking is almost bullying"},{"startTime":2401.53,"endTime":2403.016,"body":"point bullet pointing that out."},{"startTime":2403.016,"endTime":2404.73,"body":"So each of one of these are clear."},{"startTime":2404.73,"endTime":2406.644,"body":"Each one of these are clear and concise."},{"startTime":2406.644,"endTime":2407.473,"body":"I think you're saying the same thing."},{"startTime":2407.473,"endTime":2407.625,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2407.625,"endTime":2408.044,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2408.244,"endTime":2413.387,"body":"So I mean, I've seen this really be,"},{"startTime":2408.244,"endTime":2413.387,"body":"become almost this anti pattern where"},{"startTime":2413.416,"endTime":2419.892,"body":"people, developers who are usually"},{"startTime":2413.416,"endTime":2419.892,"body":"incentivized to be fed information and"},{"startTime":2419.892,"endTime":2424.178,"body":"to not, and, and not in an organization"},{"startTime":2419.892,"endTime":2424.178,"body":"that is really embracing and, and,"},{"startTime":2424.178,"endTime":2426.521,"body":"and empowering teams to be innovative."},{"startTime":2426.778,"endTime":2431.102,"body":"No, I I'm, so, I'm with you on this one"},{"startTime":2426.778,"endTime":2431.102,"body":"because I, I went through this recently."},{"startTime":2431.34,"endTime":2434.711,"body":"Because my team was doing"},{"startTime":2431.34,"endTime":2434.711,"body":"a bunch of UI changes."},{"startTime":2435.187,"endTime":2439.816,"body":"and , I worked on mobile apps for a"},{"startTime":2435.187,"endTime":2439.816,"body":"good part of my career, so I have a real"},{"startTime":2439.816,"endTime":2445.306,"body":"strong opinion on user interface because,"},{"startTime":2439.816,"endTime":2445.306,"body":"again, working on mobile apps, you get"},{"startTime":2445.306,"endTime":2446.944,"body":"beat up by users in the App Stores."},{"startTime":2446.964,"endTime":2448.106,"body":"Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2448.106,"endTime":2452.144,"body":"If your UI sucks,  I mean, you'll find"},{"startTime":2448.106,"endTime":2452.144,"body":"out real quick And, and sometimes, like"},{"startTime":2452.373,"endTime":2457.259,"body":"sometimes I, I say sometimes to not get in"},{"startTime":2452.373,"endTime":2457.259,"body":"fights on the internet with random people."},{"startTime":2457.468,"endTime":2461.878,"body":"But reality is sometimes sometimes"},{"startTime":2457.468,"endTime":2461.878,"body":"it says, sometimes again, sometimes"},{"startTime":2461.878,"endTime":2465.421,"body":"a developer will tell you like, Oh,"},{"startTime":2461.878,"endTime":2465.421,"body":"we just need a dropdown for this, or"},{"startTime":2465.421,"endTime":2469.44,"body":"whatever, and I'm like, Mm, if you're"},{"startTime":2465.421,"endTime":2469.44,"body":"adding a dropdown or like a radio"},{"startTime":2469.44,"endTime":2471.868,"body":"button or something like that, I was"},{"startTime":2469.44,"endTime":2471.868,"body":"like, If you're adding that, it's gonna"},{"startTime":2471.873,"endTime":2473.697,"body":"look different on Android and iOS."},{"startTime":2473.925,"endTime":2476.811,"body":"Have you really thought"},{"startTime":2473.925,"endTime":2476.811,"body":"about the user's flow?"},{"startTime":2477.287,"endTime":2479.487,"body":", they have to press a dropdown button."},{"startTime":2479.687,"endTime":2479.773,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2479.773,"endTime":2483.744,"body":"And that sends them to basically another"},{"startTime":2479.773,"endTime":2483.744,"body":"screen to choose either of the things"},{"startTime":2483.887,"endTime":2485.716,"body":"like, have you really thought about this?"},{"startTime":2485.773,"endTime":2485.83,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2485.887,"endTime":2486.202,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2486.43,"endTime":2489.421,"body":"And then,  obviously like"},{"startTime":2486.43,"endTime":2489.421,"body":"depending on the organization, you"},{"startTime":2489.421,"endTime":2491.221,"body":"might lose those fights, right?"},{"startTime":2491.306,"endTime":2494.278,"body":"And then get beat up in the app"},{"startTime":2491.306,"endTime":2494.278,"body":"store for every fight that you lost."},{"startTime":2494.521,"endTime":2497.206,"body":"You knew it wasn't something good"},{"startTime":2494.521,"endTime":2497.206,"body":"to compromise on in the first place."},{"startTime":2497.206,"endTime":2498.721,"body":"So like clear and concise."},{"startTime":2498.902,"endTime":2502.921,"body":"Why bring this up is for me, there's"},{"startTime":2498.902,"endTime":2502.921,"body":"a part of me as a product person,"},{"startTime":2503.397,"endTime":2506.454,"body":"Again, we're talking about scrum mass,"},{"startTime":2503.397,"endTime":2506.454,"body":"is I'm weighing as a product person."},{"startTime":2506.454,"endTime":2506.654,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2507.13,"endTime":2510.921,"body":"There's a part of me as a product"},{"startTime":2507.13,"endTime":2510.921,"body":"person coming from my background"},{"startTime":2511.121,"endTime":2517.378,"body":"working on development teams where I"},{"startTime":2511.121,"endTime":2517.378,"body":"can take a UI and I can mock it up how"},{"startTime":2517.378,"endTime":2520.092,"body":"I think the UI should flow to the user."},{"startTime":2520.178,"endTime":2520.264,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2520.497,"endTime":2522.292,"body":"and I can give that to"},{"startTime":2520.497,"endTime":2522.292,"body":"the development team."},{"startTime":2522.768,"endTime":2523.197,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2523.625,"endTime":2524.483,"body":"The minute I do."},{"startTime":2524.959,"endTime":2526.673,"body":"And I do that for every UI screen."},{"startTime":2526.902,"endTime":2529.902,"body":"Like, am I now leading"},{"startTime":2526.902,"endTime":2529.902,"body":"the development team?"},{"startTime":2529.902,"endTime":2535.587,"body":"Am I taking away from the development"},{"startTime":2529.902,"endTime":2535.587,"body":"team's discussion of the best way?"},{"startTime":2535.592,"endTime":2536.035,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2536.111,"endTime":2536.416,"body":". Yeah."},{"startTime":2536.892,"endTime":2540.664,"body":"I will tell you my personal preference"},{"startTime":2536.892,"endTime":2540.664,"body":"is to give them nothing, just to write"},{"startTime":2540.664,"endTime":2544.083,"body":"the story to say the user should do"},{"startTime":2540.664,"endTime":2544.083,"body":"X , which should lead the user to"},{"startTime":2544.083,"endTime":2550.025,"body":"doing Y, which should lead the user"},{"startTime":2544.083,"endTime":2550.025,"body":"to doing Z or or Z if we're in the uk."},{"startTime":2550.083,"endTime":2550.34,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2550.397,"endTime":2552.083,"body":"You're saying what not how you're Right."},{"startTime":2552.149,"endTime":2552.34,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2552.344,"endTime":2552.368,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2552.368,"endTime":2552.883,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":2552.911,"endTime":2554.054,"body":"I, I agree with that."},{"startTime":2554.054,"endTime":2555.968,"body":"I think there's also value in."},{"startTime":2556.444,"endTime":2560.387,"body":"giving that to the team and then"},{"startTime":2556.444,"endTime":2560.387,"body":"giving them enough rope to come back"},{"startTime":2560.387,"endTime":2564.559,"body":"with and say, Well, here's a quick"},{"startTime":2560.387,"endTime":2564.559,"body":"Figma mockup or DX mockup, right?"},{"startTime":2564.559,"endTime":2564.616,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2564.844,"endTime":2568.759,"body":"How does this, how does this look ? And"},{"startTime":2564.844,"endTime":2568.759,"body":"that's where, if I was wearing your"},{"startTime":2568.759,"endTime":2572.378,"body":"hat as a product person, I would say,"},{"startTime":2568.759,"endTime":2572.378,"body":"Okay, but let's, let's get some real"},{"startTime":2572.378,"endTime":2573.644,"body":"feedback from the customer, right?"},{"startTime":2573.644,"endTime":2573.835,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2573.949,"endTime":2574.025,"body":", right?"},{"startTime":2574.03,"endTime":2574.064,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2574.149,"endTime":2575.549,"body":"And then give them that."},{"startTime":2575.549,"endTime":2579.892,"body":"And so yeah, between these two, So come up"},{"startTime":2575.549,"endTime":2579.892,"body":"with approaches, not a singular approach."},{"startTime":2579.892,"endTime":2580.606,"body":"Maybe one or two."},{"startTime":2580.664,"endTime":2582.664,"body":"And these are quick to"},{"startTime":2580.664,"endTime":2582.664,"body":"mock up, I have to say."},{"startTime":2582.949,"endTime":2583.292,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2583.292,"endTime":2585.264,"body":"I mean, it takes minutes"},{"startTime":2583.292,"endTime":2585.264,"body":"to come up with this stuff"},{"startTime":2585.359,"endTime":2590.092,"body":"in that working environment, you"},{"startTime":2585.359,"endTime":2590.092,"body":"have to be okay with purposefully."},{"startTime":2590.568,"endTime":2592.968,"body":"As a product person staying out of it."},{"startTime":2593.025,"endTime":2593.14,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2593.616,"endTime":2598.187,"body":"and, and letting the development team"},{"startTime":2593.616,"endTime":2598.187,"body":"talk to the users and get feedback"},{"startTime":2598.187,"endTime":2600.044,"body":"that you expect is gonna come."},{"startTime":2600.283,"endTime":2607.087,"body":"I feel the, the more project managementy"},{"startTime":2600.283,"endTime":2607.087,"body":"people in the room will say, Why are"},{"startTime":2607.087,"endTime":2609.402,"body":"you gonna let the development team"},{"startTime":2607.087,"endTime":2609.402,"body":"intentionally fail in front of the"},{"startTime":2609.402,"endTime":2612.487,"body":"customers when you know that they"},{"startTime":2609.402,"endTime":2612.487,"body":"don't want radio buttons or whatever,"},{"startTime":2612.492,"endTime":2615.249,"body":"or they don't wanna drop down in their"},{"startTime":2612.492,"endTime":2615.249,"body":"workflow that interrupts their workflow"},{"startTime":2615.249,"endTime":2616.478,"body":"and then goes back and whatever."},{"startTime":2616.649,"endTime":2620.021,"body":"They just want radio buttons to"},{"startTime":2616.649,"endTime":2620.021,"body":"quickly click through or whatever."},{"startTime":2620.078,"endTime":2622.906,"body":"Like you, the product"},{"startTime":2620.078,"endTime":2622.906,"body":"person, highly suspect."},{"startTime":2623.364,"endTime":2628.383,"body":"I mean, I mean the, the aside from"},{"startTime":2623.364,"endTime":2628.383,"body":"you should be doing some AB testing"},{"startTime":2628.383,"endTime":2631.954,"body":"and running some metrics like that to"},{"startTime":2628.383,"endTime":2631.954,"body":"get real metrics along the way before"},{"startTime":2631.954,"endTime":2633.297,"body":"you implement your permanent solution."},{"startTime":2633.611,"endTime":2637.64,"body":"You might be in an organization"},{"startTime":2633.611,"endTime":2637.64,"body":"where, again, sales vp, somebody"},{"startTime":2637.644,"endTime":2639.925,"body":"else is driving you to be like,"},{"startTime":2637.644,"endTime":2639.925,"body":"You gotta get it done by this date."},{"startTime":2640.097,"endTime":2641.84,"body":"You only have two weeks"},{"startTime":2640.097,"endTime":2641.84,"body":"to try and implement."},{"startTime":2641.84,"endTime":2644.583,"body":"So whatever you can try and"},{"startTime":2641.84,"endTime":2644.583,"body":"implement in this two weeks."},{"startTime":2644.587,"endTime":2644.821,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2644.897,"endTime":2645.525,"body":"is what you can do."},{"startTime":2645.725,"endTime":2647.497,"body":"So you don't have much"},{"startTime":2645.725,"endTime":2647.497,"body":"time for AB testing."},{"startTime":2647.973,"endTime":2651.202,"body":"Like, again, these are, I'm not"},{"startTime":2647.973,"endTime":2651.202,"body":"saying these are good excuses"},{"startTime":2651.516,"endTime":2652.802,"body":"for shortcutting, the process."},{"startTime":2652.849,"endTime":2657.944,"body":"The bullet point here is, helping"},{"startTime":2652.849,"endTime":2657.944,"body":"establish empirical product planning."},{"startTime":2658.421,"endTime":2659.592,"body":"In a complex environment."},{"startTime":2659.935,"endTime":2660.192,"body":"Okay?"},{"startTime":2660.364,"endTime":2661.706,"body":"This is a scrum master by the way."},{"startTime":2661.878,"endTime":2666.421,"body":"So the scrum master is saying, I know the"},{"startTime":2661.878,"endTime":2666.421,"body":"VP said they wanna buy XYZ date, whatever,"},{"startTime":2666.506,"endTime":2672.068,"body":"Z date, Z date but the best way to figure"},{"startTime":2666.506,"endTime":2672.068,"body":"out what these users really want is to"},{"startTime":2672.068,"endTime":2679.821,"body":"do this AB test where we develop A and"},{"startTime":2672.068,"endTime":2679.821,"body":"we develop B, and we push 50% users to"},{"startTime":2679.821,"endTime":2682.021,"body":"a, 50% users to B and get some metrics."},{"startTime":2682.497,"endTime":2685.811,"body":"In order to do that, we"},{"startTime":2682.497,"endTime":2685.811,"body":"have to implement A and B."},{"startTime":2686.287,"endTime":2688.03,"body":"We need to go through this process."},{"startTime":2688.506,"endTime":2694.325,"body":"So the scrum master has to talk to, in"},{"startTime":2688.506,"endTime":2694.325,"body":"that example, the executives who demanded"},{"startTime":2694.325,"endTime":2698.954,"body":"the feature, the users who are using"},{"startTime":2694.325,"endTime":2698.954,"body":"the feature, both pool A and pool B,"},{"startTime":2699.354,"endTime":2701.354,"body":"they needed to coach the product person."},{"startTime":2701.411,"endTime":2704.487,"body":"Hey, I know you're under"},{"startTime":2701.411,"endTime":2704.487,"body":"a lot of pressure, but."},{"startTime":2704.964,"endTime":2707.106,"body":"The right thing to do in this scenario."},{"startTime":2707.478,"endTime":2710.554,"body":"Some AB testing, they need to"},{"startTime":2707.478,"endTime":2710.554,"body":"talk to developers to make sure"},{"startTime":2710.554,"endTime":2713.554,"body":"that the back end is instrumented"},{"startTime":2710.554,"endTime":2713.554,"body":"to do AB testing, so Right."},{"startTime":2713.559,"endTime":2716.887,"body":"So, so the there is some block and"},{"startTime":2713.559,"endTime":2716.887,"body":"tackling here on the scrum master part"},{"startTime":2717.144,"endTime":2721.192,"body":"that quite honestly like I don't know"},{"startTime":2717.144,"endTime":2721.192,"body":"if it has anything to do with Scrum"},{"startTime":2721.192,"endTime":2727.287,"body":"Mastery in the first place, but it's like"},{"startTime":2721.192,"endTime":2727.287,"body":"everything I just said is like, could be"},{"startTime":2727.287,"endTime":2730.392,"body":"very critical to a new feature, you know?"},{"startTime":2730.868,"endTime":2731.297,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2731.302,"endTime":2734.925,"body":"And, and since we're talking about the"},{"startTime":2731.302,"endTime":2734.925,"body":"role of a scrum master here, right?"},{"startTime":2735.402,"endTime":2738.849,"body":"They should be doing those things"},{"startTime":2735.402,"endTime":2738.849,"body":"and facilitating that, but the"},{"startTime":2738.849,"endTime":2741.506,"body":"flip side of that question is who"},{"startTime":2738.849,"endTime":2741.506,"body":"does it when they're not there?"},{"startTime":2741.983,"endTime":2742.925,"body":"Oh, right."},{"startTime":2743.125,"endTime":2747.468,"body":"I'm gonna roll it into empirical product"},{"startTime":2743.125,"endTime":2747.468,"body":"planning for a complex environment."},{"startTime":2747.564,"endTime":2752.344,"body":"To say  if you've not previously thought"},{"startTime":2747.564,"endTime":2752.344,"body":"about how you are going to measure"},{"startTime":2752.344,"endTime":2757.564,"body":"success across your users across your"},{"startTime":2752.344,"endTime":2757.564,"body":"environment, you roll this out to you"},{"startTime":2757.564,"endTime":2760.297,"body":"really need to consider that as step one.."},{"startTime":2760.554,"endTime":2761.754,"body":"Before anything else."},{"startTime":2761.868,"endTime":2764.897,"body":"And this is the weirdest part"},{"startTime":2761.868,"endTime":2764.897,"body":"about this is it's the scrum master"},{"startTime":2765.068,"endTime":2766.811,"body":"bringing this to the conversation."},{"startTime":2767.068,"endTime":2772.306,"body":"Cause this is not something I would expect"},{"startTime":2767.068,"endTime":2772.306,"body":"I, as the product person would expect  to"},{"startTime":2772.306,"endTime":2773.849,"body":"come from the scrum master, you know?"},{"startTime":2773.849,"endTime":2773.992,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2774.249,"endTime":2777.725,"body":"Hey, how have you, how have you really"},{"startTime":2774.249,"endTime":2777.725,"body":"thought about if this truly solves a"},{"startTime":2777.725,"endTime":2781.925,"body":"customer experience on Android, if this"},{"startTime":2777.725,"endTime":2781.925,"body":"truly solves a customer experience on iOS"},{"startTime":2782.402,"endTime":2787.897,"body":"so I'd say that that a lot of the examples"},{"startTime":2782.402,"endTime":2787.897,"body":"that you've given in are of potential"},{"startTime":2787.897,"endTime":2791.925,"body":"opportunities for a Scrum master to step"},{"startTime":2787.897,"endTime":2791.925,"body":"in and, and, and help and be helpful"},{"startTime":2792.402,"endTime":2798.011,"body":"are really going to require a lot of"},{"startTime":2792.402,"endTime":2798.011,"body":"experience from, from a scrum master."},{"startTime":2798.04,"endTime":2803.978,"body":"And it almost sounds to me to some extent"},{"startTime":2798.04,"endTime":2803.978,"body":"a lot of times this may be, this may"},{"startTime":2803.983,"endTime":2809.354,"body":"be a scrumer that's more experienced,"},{"startTime":2803.983,"endTime":2809.354,"body":"or ha has, has more longevity in"},{"startTime":2809.354,"endTime":2811.811,"body":"product than the product owner, right?"},{"startTime":2811.811,"endTime":2816.183,"body":"And so they're really  being"},{"startTime":2811.811,"endTime":2816.183,"body":"that crutch for a, a newer"},{"startTime":2816.187,"endTime":2818.468,"body":"product owner or product manager."},{"startTime":2818.944,"endTime":2820.487,"body":"who does this when"},{"startTime":2818.944,"endTime":2820.487,"body":"there's no scrum master?"},{"startTime":2820.687,"endTime":2822.602,"body":"So the empirical product planning."},{"startTime":2823.078,"endTime":2824.344,"body":"That's so huge."},{"startTime":2824.583,"endTime":2828.325,"body":", I'm asking this question per category"},{"startTime":2824.583,"endTime":2828.325,"body":"because there is a ton of people on"},{"startTime":2828.325,"endTime":2832.525,"body":"the internet being super combative"},{"startTime":2828.325,"endTime":2832.525,"body":"looking to, to, to pick, to nitpick"},{"startTime":2832.525,"endTime":2836.011,"body":"and get views via low hanging"},{"startTime":2832.525,"endTime":2836.011,"body":"fruit about this kind of stuff."},{"startTime":2836.011,"endTime":2839.116,"body":"Like, they're like well I don't"},{"startTime":2836.011,"endTime":2839.116,"body":"see a need for a scrum master."},{"startTime":2839.121,"endTime":2841.802,"body":"No development team ever needs"},{"startTime":2839.121,"endTime":2841.802,"body":"a scrum master is totally a"},{"startTime":2841.802,"endTime":2843.411,"body":"part-time role totes-ma-goats!"},{"startTime":2843.668,"endTime":2845.268,"body":"There's a lot of people saying this Sure."},{"startTime":2845.325,"endTime":2846.525,"body":"And repeating this on the internet."},{"startTime":2846.578,"endTime":2850.711,"body":"I mean, I guess you have to really"},{"startTime":2846.578,"endTime":2850.711,"body":"lean on the product people to do this."},{"startTime":2851.187,"endTime":2853.616,"body":"If there's no scrum master"},{"startTime":2851.187,"endTime":2853.616,"body":"organization, your, your product,"},{"startTime":2853.616,"endTime":2855.502,"body":"people really need to sign on to."},{"startTime":2855.902,"endTime":2863.149,"body":"I'm going to defend my, my decisions and"},{"startTime":2855.902,"endTime":2863.149,"body":"my entire team's decisions to try things"},{"startTime":2863.206,"endTime":2865.825,"body":"and adjust depending on the outcome."},{"startTime":2865.997,"endTime":2869.854,"body":"I was gonna say fail, but that's so"},{"startTime":2865.997,"endTime":2869.854,"body":"cliche to say fail quickly or whatever."},{"startTime":2869.854,"endTime":2875.387,"body":"But I'm really gonna defend my team's"},{"startTime":2869.854,"endTime":2875.387,"body":"ability to try things quickly and adjust."},{"startTime":2875.625,"endTime":2879.944,"body":"I do this with my teams where I"},{"startTime":2875.625,"endTime":2879.944,"body":"mark in the system of we are doing"},{"startTime":2879.944,"endTime":2884.059,"body":"this task specifically so we can"},{"startTime":2879.944,"endTime":2884.059,"body":"learn how this new technology works."},{"startTime":2884.087,"endTime":2885.944,"body":"I have a category for"},{"startTime":2884.087,"endTime":2885.944,"body":"that, for work items."},{"startTime":2886.287,"endTime":2890.973,"body":"So I can track at the end of the sprint"},{"startTime":2886.287,"endTime":2890.973,"body":"X percentage of our effort went into"},{"startTime":2891.402,"endTime":2893.43,"body":"learning new things and trying new things."},{"startTime":2893.744,"endTime":2896.087,"body":"It's not gonna give you a"},{"startTime":2893.744,"endTime":2896.087,"body":"deliverable to the business."},{"startTime":2896.116,"endTime":2899.973,"body":"It's just, it's basically like you can"},{"startTime":2896.116,"endTime":2899.973,"body":"shuffle that into your training bucket if"},{"startTime":2899.973,"endTime":2901.573,"body":"you again, if you have a training bucket."},{"startTime":2902.049,"endTime":2902.278,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2902.278,"endTime":2905.268,"body":"I mean this is something that"},{"startTime":2902.278,"endTime":2905.268,"body":"certain frameworks promote."},{"startTime":2905.268,"endTime":2905.497,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2905.497,"endTime":2908.668,"body":"So innovation, basically"},{"startTime":2905.497,"endTime":2908.668,"body":"architectural runway, stuff like that."},{"startTime":2908.754,"endTime":2909.24,"body":"Yeah, Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":2909.621,"endTime":2912.03,"body":"Who does this when the"},{"startTime":2909.621,"endTime":2912.03,"body":"Scrum master's not there?"},{"startTime":2912.506,"endTime":2915.249,"body":"You mentioned the product"},{"startTime":2912.506,"endTime":2915.249,"body":"side, but I've also seen."},{"startTime":2915.725,"endTime":2918.725,"body":"Especially on, on, on"},{"startTime":2915.725,"endTime":2918.725,"body":"software development teams."},{"startTime":2918.773,"endTime":2922.602,"body":"the architects driving this,"},{"startTime":2918.773,"endTime":2922.602,"body":"they would say, Well, we we're"},{"startTime":2922.602,"endTime":2924.002,"body":"clear on where we need to go."},{"startTime":2924.03,"endTime":2925.659,"body":"This is, we don't have,"},{"startTime":2924.03,"endTime":2925.659,"body":"there's a gap here."},{"startTime":2925.659,"endTime":2926.544,"body":"There's no scrum masters."},{"startTime":2926.549,"endTime":2928.002,"body":"So team, you're working on this now."},{"startTime":2928.478,"endTime":2928.621,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2928.625,"endTime":2930.164,"body":"So the architect drives that."},{"startTime":2930.164,"endTime":2930.821,"body":"Sometimes."},{"startTime":2931.135,"endTime":2933.449,"body":"One hopes it's a temporary"},{"startTime":2931.135,"endTime":2933.449,"body":"measure, but Yes."},{"startTime":2933.925,"endTime":2937.43,"body":"Seen that, I mean, I, I have"},{"startTime":2933.925,"endTime":2937.43,"body":"seen in my career, I've seen"},{"startTime":2937.906,"endTime":2939.192,"body":"team leads, development leads."},{"startTime":2939.192,"endTime":2939.992,"body":"What do you wanna call 'em?"},{"startTime":2939.992,"endTime":2942.021,"body":"Yeah, just, just short using architect."},{"startTime":2942.497,"endTime":2942.697,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2942.697,"endTime":2944.211,"body":"Architect could be just shorter."},{"startTime":2944.211,"endTime":2944.583,"body":"Manager."},{"startTime":2944.735,"endTime":2945.373,"body":"Manager."},{"startTime":2945.554,"endTime":2947.64,"body":"Development's a little bit too high"},{"startTime":2945.554,"endTime":2947.64,"body":"level for what I'm talking about,"},{"startTime":2947.64,"endTime":2952.811,"body":"but I, I've seen team leads or"},{"startTime":2947.64,"endTime":2952.811,"body":"senior individuals on each team."},{"startTime":2953.287,"endTime":2953.516,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2953.544,"endTime":2954.002,"body":"Do this."},{"startTime":2954.002,"endTime":2955.859,"body":"Senior devs perhaps is senior dev."},{"startTime":2955.859,"endTime":2956.03,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2956.03,"endTime":2958.03,"body":"One, one or two on each,"},{"startTime":2956.03,"endTime":2958.03,"body":"depending on the size of the team."},{"startTime":2958.373,"endTime":2959.954,"body":"I've seen them be tapped."},{"startTime":2960.249,"endTime":2963.792,"body":"To do this, but  by the time you"},{"startTime":2960.249,"endTime":2963.792,"body":"get up to a manager or director"},{"startTime":2963.792,"endTime":2967.611,"body":"or whatever development, I don't"},{"startTime":2963.792,"endTime":2967.611,"body":"think they really do this full time."},{"startTime":2967.84,"endTime":2970.364,"body":"They don't in the matrix environment,"},{"startTime":2967.84,"endTime":2970.364,"body":"they're not even close to the team."},{"startTime":2970.364,"endTime":2970.706,"body":"Anyway."},{"startTime":2971.087,"endTime":2976.987,"body":"So when  you are both speaking to"},{"startTime":2971.087,"endTime":2976.987,"body":"empirical product planning, I just"},{"startTime":2976.987,"endTime":2980.244,"body":"wanna make sure we're all aligned on"},{"startTime":2976.987,"endTime":2980.244,"body":"what we are understanding that to mean."},{"startTime":2980.721,"endTime":2983.864,"body":"So when you say empirical product"},{"startTime":2980.721,"endTime":2983.864,"body":"planning, what does that mean to you?"},{"startTime":2984.321,"endTime":2987.778,"body":"Yeah, so for me that means that"},{"startTime":2984.321,"endTime":2987.778,"body":"planning just enough product and then"},{"startTime":2987.778,"endTime":2989.521,"body":"vetting what you've planned, right?"},{"startTime":2989.521,"endTime":2992.778,"body":"So making sure that you're, you"},{"startTime":2989.521,"endTime":2992.778,"body":"are basically coming up with"},{"startTime":2992.778,"endTime":2997.397,"body":"evidence that what you're deploying"},{"startTime":2992.778,"endTime":2997.397,"body":"or developing according to that"},{"startTime":2997.397,"endTime":2999.483,"body":"plan is actually working for you."},{"startTime":2999.487,"endTime":2999.683,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2999.759,"endTime":3000.483,"body":". If not, you pivot."},{"startTime":3000.654,"endTime":3001.511,"body":"That's what it means to me."},{"startTime":3001.987,"endTime":3002.664,"body":"Yeah, same."},{"startTime":3002.892,"endTime":3003.75,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":3003.755,"endTime":3005.206,"body":"So I was thinking evidence based."},{"startTime":3005.206,"endTime":3005.73,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":3006.006,"endTime":3009.121,"body":"So, and I was thinking a little"},{"startTime":3006.006,"endTime":3009.121,"body":"more, maybe a little more broadly,"},{"startTime":3009.13,"endTime":3013.797,"body":"so when I'm thinking about product"},{"startTime":3009.13,"endTime":3013.797,"body":"planning for a complex environment,"},{"startTime":3013.797,"endTime":3020.083,"body":"I'm thinking about things like roadmap"},{"startTime":3013.797,"endTime":3020.083,"body":"and and even persona to some extent."},{"startTime":3020.083,"endTime":3022.711,"body":"We could get some empiric, some"},{"startTime":3020.083,"endTime":3022.711,"body":"empirical information out of there."},{"startTime":3022.711,"endTime":3024.597,"body":"And then thinking about,"},{"startTime":3022.711,"endTime":3024.597,"body":"okay, who's involved?"},{"startTime":3024.825,"endTime":3027.083,"body":"I, I, I'll specifically"},{"startTime":3024.825,"endTime":3027.083,"body":"think about roadmap."},{"startTime":3027.087,"endTime":3028.916,"body":"So when I was thinking about"},{"startTime":3027.087,"endTime":3028.916,"body":"that from a product planning"},{"startTime":3028.921,"endTime":3033.268,"body":"perspective,  scrum master could"},{"startTime":3028.921,"endTime":3033.268,"body":"be very helpful in facilitating Oh"},{"startTime":3033.268,"endTime":3037.321,"body":"my gosh, especially facilitating"},{"startTime":3033.268,"endTime":3037.321,"body":"that type of a meeting or planning."},{"startTime":3037.797,"endTime":3041.159,"body":"But if they're not there, that's kind"},{"startTime":3037.797,"endTime":3041.159,"body":"of a large group of stakeholders."},{"startTime":3041.159,"endTime":3044.559,"body":"So we would have product and, and,"},{"startTime":3041.159,"endTime":3044.559,"body":"and enterprise architecture and"},{"startTime":3044.559,"endTime":3048.483,"body":"potentially user experience and"},{"startTime":3044.559,"endTime":3048.483,"body":"developers and sales and marketing."},{"startTime":3048.483,"endTime":3051.311,"body":"I mean, who, there could be a"},{"startTime":3048.483,"endTime":3051.311,"body":"lot of people involved in that."},{"startTime":3051.311,"endTime":3051.397,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":3051.873,"endTime":3055.735,"body":"And so if Scrum Master isn't there"},{"startTime":3051.873,"endTime":3055.735,"body":"there could be a lot of people"},{"startTime":3055.735,"endTime":3059.811,"body":"potentially helping to establish"},{"startTime":3055.735,"endTime":3059.811,"body":"that empirical product plan."},{"startTime":3060.287,"endTime":3063.968,"body":"And it could be we can really narrow"},{"startTime":3060.287,"endTime":3063.968,"body":"that down from a roadmap to something"},{"startTime":3064.083,"endTime":3066.121,"body":"far smaller and more measurable."},{"startTime":3066.321,"endTime":3066.806,"body":"Not sure."},{"startTime":3066.806,"endTime":3069.025,"body":"But that's kind of the way"},{"startTime":3066.806,"endTime":3069.025,"body":"I was thinking about it."},{"startTime":3069.502,"endTime":3072.073,"body":"I don't think they're too far apart"},{"startTime":3069.502,"endTime":3072.073,"body":"really from what we're saying."},{"startTime":3072.073,"endTime":3075.864,"body":"You know, I think my, my vision was"},{"startTime":3072.073,"endTime":3075.864,"body":"something a little bit, little bit"},{"startTime":3075.864,"endTime":3078.235,"body":"narrow than a full-fledged product plan."},{"startTime":3078.349,"endTime":3081.421,"body":"On a time horizon, it would"},{"startTime":3078.349,"endTime":3081.421,"body":"be, Closer rather than mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3081.649,"endTime":3082.078,"body":"distant."},{"startTime":3082.078,"endTime":3082.364,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3082.592,"endTime":3087.811,"body":"So more like coming up with features for"},{"startTime":3082.592,"endTime":3087.811,"body":"the next PI or next few, few sprints."},{"startTime":3088.049,"endTime":3091.449,"body":"So we're getting into like"},{"startTime":3088.049,"endTime":3091.449,"body":"huge contextual mapping."},{"startTime":3091.497,"endTime":3095.259,"body":"We, we actually talked about during road"},{"startTime":3091.497,"endTime":3095.259,"body":"mapping for this podcast, . But  road"},{"startTime":3095.259,"endTime":3097.487,"body":"mapping is a whole separate podcast."},{"startTime":3097.492,"endTime":3100.435,"body":"the last category is facilitating"},{"startTime":3097.492,"endTime":3100.435,"body":"stakeholder collaboration"},{"startTime":3100.435,"endTime":3102.406,"body":"as requested or needed"},{"startTime":3102.587,"endTime":3105.011,"body":"I brought this up in the previous podcast."},{"startTime":3105.011,"endTime":3107.135,"body":"where basically, your scrum master."},{"startTime":3107.221,"endTime":3110.554,"body":"Again, assuming they're a people"},{"startTime":3107.221,"endTime":3110.554,"body":"person, we're gonna go out on limb"},{"startTime":3110.697,"endTime":3112.783,"body":"and say they like talking to people."},{"startTime":3113.259,"endTime":3119.192,"body":"They have a extraordinary ability to"},{"startTime":3113.259,"endTime":3119.192,"body":"extend the product owner for the team."},{"startTime":3119.511,"endTime":3123.93,"body":"Product manager, whatever you wanna"},{"startTime":3119.511,"endTime":3123.93,"body":"call it, to coordinate and collaborate"},{"startTime":3123.93,"endTime":3127.197,"body":"with stakeholders, to coordinate"},{"startTime":3123.93,"endTime":3127.197,"body":"activities with stakeholders, talk to"},{"startTime":3127.197,"endTime":3130.387,"body":"stakeholders, reach out to them and"},{"startTime":3127.197,"endTime":3130.387,"body":"find out how they're doing, go back and"},{"startTime":3130.387,"endTime":3131.559,"body":"forth with them, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":3131.93,"endTime":3134.835,"body":"But also when I think about"},{"startTime":3131.93,"endTime":3134.835,"body":"dealing with stakeholders, I"},{"startTime":3134.835,"endTime":3136.378,"body":"think about dealing with users."},{"startTime":3136.787,"endTime":3140.635,"body":"And when I think about dealing with"},{"startTime":3136.787,"endTime":3140.635,"body":"users, I think about this bullet point,"},{"startTime":3140.864,"endTime":3142.692,"body":"facilitating stakeholder collaboration."},{"startTime":3142.892,"endTime":3145.854,"body":"I think about this bullet"},{"startTime":3142.892,"endTime":3145.854,"body":"point as encompassing a lot"},{"startTime":3145.854,"endTime":3146.968,"body":"of product discovery, Activit."},{"startTime":3147.444,"endTime":3147.816,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3147.873,"endTime":3151.53,"body":"So talking to people, getting"},{"startTime":3147.873,"endTime":3151.53,"body":"their input, figuring out the best"},{"startTime":3151.53,"endTime":3156.149,"body":"way to, to collaborate with them"},{"startTime":3151.53,"endTime":3156.149,"body":"to get their like clean input."},{"startTime":3156.178,"endTime":3158.292,"body":"Like true, their true input on things."},{"startTime":3158.297,"endTime":3158.349,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3158.349,"endTime":3158.959,"body":"Filter out noise."},{"startTime":3158.959,"endTime":3159.302,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3159.302,"endTime":3160.578,"body":"Filter out noise, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":3160.578,"endTime":3163.959,"body":"You mean filter out to VP demands"},{"startTime":3160.578,"endTime":3163.959,"body":"them stuff from the actual"},{"startTime":3163.959,"endTime":3165.044,"body":"voice of the customer, Right."},{"startTime":3165.244,"endTime":3166.987,"body":"And to let the voice of"},{"startTime":3165.244,"endTime":3166.987,"body":"the customer ring true."},{"startTime":3167.121,"endTime":3170.93,"body":"Product people probably are already"},{"startTime":3167.121,"endTime":3170.93,"body":"looking for ways to do that as part"},{"startTime":3170.93,"endTime":3174.968,"body":"of the normal job, but this is a"},{"startTime":3170.93,"endTime":3174.968,"body":"scrum master helping with that."},{"startTime":3174.968,"endTime":3175.311,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":3175.787,"endTime":3179.483,"body":"So like I already said, under the"},{"startTime":3175.787,"endTime":3179.483,"body":"techniques, under the first bullet"},{"startTime":3179.483,"endTime":3183.883,"body":"point that that techniques to,  make"},{"startTime":3179.483,"endTime":3183.883,"body":"a more effective product goal, , and"},{"startTime":3183.883,"endTime":3187.168,"body":"have product backlog items to"},{"startTime":3183.883,"endTime":3187.168,"body":"vet out, product backlog items."},{"startTime":3187.464,"endTime":3190.93,"body":"You're already helping with that,"},{"startTime":3187.464,"endTime":3190.93,"body":"but now you're also helping."},{"startTime":3191.406,"endTime":3193.549,"body":"Facilitate conversations"},{"startTime":3191.406,"endTime":3193.549,"body":"with stakeholders."},{"startTime":3194.025,"endTime":3200.416,"body":"So like this is the magic of the"},{"startTime":3194.025,"endTime":3200.416,"body":"product owner's job on the team, right."},{"startTime":3200.416,"endTime":3201.13,"body":"That you're helping with."},{"startTime":3201.359,"endTime":3203.044,"body":"So what is the point of this bullet point?"},{"startTime":3203.044,"endTime":3205.159,"body":"What is the point of facilitating"},{"startTime":3203.044,"endTime":3205.159,"body":"stakeholder collaboration"},{"startTime":3205.159,"endTime":3206.787,"body":"as requested or as needed?"},{"startTime":3207.016,"endTime":3213.073,"body":"Like, is it you being a second person"},{"startTime":3207.016,"endTime":3213.073,"body":"on a team apart from the product"},{"startTime":3213.073,"endTime":3219.987,"body":"person who can basically do the entire"},{"startTime":3213.073,"endTime":3219.987,"body":"job of stakeholder facilitation?"},{"startTime":3220.025,"endTime":3220.54,"body":"what is it?"},{"startTime":3220.54,"endTime":3224.225,"body":"This is being a side kick, I think to"},{"startTime":3220.54,"endTime":3224.225,"body":"the, to the the product person, right?"},{"startTime":3224.283,"endTime":3226.187,"body":"In facilitating specifically mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3226.283,"endTime":3230.197,"body":". But what they're not doing is influencing"},{"startTime":3226.283,"endTime":3230.197,"body":"the discussions they're facilitating."},{"startTime":3230.254,"endTime":3234.387,"body":"So how this could look in real"},{"startTime":3230.254,"endTime":3234.387,"body":"life as simple as making sure that"},{"startTime":3234.387,"endTime":3239.187,"body":"the right stakeholders are present"},{"startTime":3234.387,"endTime":3239.187,"body":"in the sprint review and further,"},{"startTime":3239.273,"endTime":3240.473,"body":"they're providing the input."},{"startTime":3240.53,"endTime":3242.073,"body":"They're not just checking a box."},{"startTime":3242.216,"endTime":3244.016,"body":"Especially nowadays, we're remote."},{"startTime":3244.073,"endTime":3245.092,"body":"You can't see the body language."},{"startTime":3245.106,"endTime":3248.473,"body":"So oftentimes what I see is"},{"startTime":3245.106,"endTime":3248.473,"body":"stakeholders are invited some come up."},{"startTime":3248.502,"endTime":3248.587,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3248.816,"endTime":3251.702,"body":", most don't bother, and"},{"startTime":3248.816,"endTime":3251.702,"body":"there's no enforcement there."},{"startTime":3251.844,"endTime":3254.873,"body":"A scrum master would say, Look,"},{"startTime":3251.844,"endTime":3254.873,"body":"if you don't show up, we can't"},{"startTime":3254.873,"endTime":3255.873,"body":"get the feedback from you."},{"startTime":3255.959,"endTime":3256.559,"body":"Right, Right."},{"startTime":3256.873,"endTime":3259.387,"body":"And if you do show up, we"},{"startTime":3256.873,"endTime":3259.387,"body":"expect feedback from you."},{"startTime":3259.387,"endTime":3259.473,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3259.949,"endTime":3262.749,"body":", good, bad or ugly, they're"},{"startTime":3259.949,"endTime":3262.749,"body":"enforcing those things."},{"startTime":3262.806,"endTime":3265.149,"body":"I use the word enforce, but"},{"startTime":3262.806,"endTime":3265.149,"body":"you know what I mean, They,"},{"startTime":3265.149,"endTime":3266.492,"body":"they're making sure it happens."},{"startTime":3266.692,"endTime":3266.806,"body":"Oh boy."},{"startTime":3266.835,"endTime":3268.378,"body":"That's the facilitation piece."},{"startTime":3268.435,"endTime":3272.954,"body":"I told somebody recently I was like, Hey,"},{"startTime":3268.435,"endTime":3272.954,"body":"if you can't come to a backlog, refinement"},{"startTime":3273.268,"endTime":3276.935,"body":"about the it that you were requesting,"},{"startTime":3273.268,"endTime":3276.935,"body":"T I was like, it's cool, it's cool if"},{"startTime":3276.935,"endTime":3278.878,"body":"you can't show up on, on the, my back."},{"startTime":3278.878,"endTime":3280.221,"body":"Over appointments"},{"startTime":3278.878,"endTime":3280.221,"body":"happened on certain days."},{"startTime":3280.478,"endTime":3282.592,"body":"I was like, It's cool if you can't show"},{"startTime":3280.478,"endTime":3282.592,"body":"up on a Wednesday, cuz you're really"},{"startTime":3282.597,"endTime":3283.935,"body":"busy cuz you're an important person."},{"startTime":3284.173,"endTime":3288.449,"body":"That means since my sprints, start"},{"startTime":3284.173,"endTime":3288.449,"body":"on Thursday, that means the next"},{"startTime":3288.449,"endTime":3292.906,"body":"sprint that we can take your item"},{"startTime":3288.449,"endTime":3292.906,"body":"into is gonna be two weeks from now."},{"startTime":3292.906,"endTime":3292.964,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3292.964,"endTime":3293.506,"body":"Thursday."},{"startTime":3293.678,"endTime":3295.621,"body":"Assuming you can show up next Wednesday."},{"startTime":3295.621,"endTime":3296.106,"body":"Next Wednesday."},{"startTime":3296.106,"endTime":3296.364,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3296.368,"endTime":3296.678,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":3296.678,"endTime":3297.649,"body":"And they're like, Oh no."},{"startTime":3297.649,"endTime":3301.935,"body":"Oh, whoa, I'll be there in a hurry cuz"},{"startTime":3297.649,"endTime":3301.935,"body":"I want my thing to not go out in two."},{"startTime":3302.049,"endTime":3302.306,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3302.449,"endTime":3303.268,"body":"So like that's it."},{"startTime":3303.506,"endTime":3304.878,"body":"I had that conversation."},{"startTime":3305.159,"endTime":3306.53,"body":"Because I'm the product person."},{"startTime":3306.53,"endTime":3310.016,"body":"I, I'm very happy to jump in front"},{"startTime":3306.53,"endTime":3310.016,"body":"of my team and totally throw,"},{"startTime":3310.016,"endTime":3311.644,"body":"throw myself on the grenade Sure."},{"startTime":3311.644,"endTime":3313.53,"body":"To, to, to make people angry or whatever."},{"startTime":3313.702,"endTime":3316.13,"body":"Also, I enjoy making people"},{"startTime":3313.702,"endTime":3316.13,"body":"angry on the internet."},{"startTime":3316.483,"endTime":3317.083,"body":"Someone has to do it."},{"startTime":3317.087,"endTime":3317.683,"body":"It's a tough job."},{"startTime":3317.711,"endTime":3320.34,"body":"Somebody has to do it when"},{"startTime":3317.711,"endTime":3320.34,"body":"Stormy's  not doing it also."},{"startTime":3320.392,"endTime":3320.506,"body":"Yikes."},{"startTime":3320.983,"endTime":3322.011,"body":"Yikes."},{"startTime":3322.183,"endTime":3327.716,"body":"Also this is saying like the scrum"},{"startTime":3322.183,"endTime":3327.716,"body":"master totally could be my hatchet man."},{"startTime":3327.721,"endTime":3330.116,"body":"If I need someone to be yes, for sure."},{"startTime":3330.164,"endTime":3334.078,"body":"I'm gonna say, So this speaks"},{"startTime":3330.164,"endTime":3334.078,"body":"again to that just really close"},{"startTime":3334.078,"endTime":3336.078,"body":"collaboration that, that connection."},{"startTime":3336.078,"endTime":3340.592,"body":"So the best teams that I've worked on,"},{"startTime":3336.078,"endTime":3340.592,"body":"I have had such a fantastic relationship"},{"startTime":3340.597,"endTime":3344.478,"body":"with my scrum master, and we do have"},{"startTime":3340.597,"endTime":3344.478,"body":"the opportunity to play that good"},{"startTime":3344.483,"endTime":3346.106,"body":"cop, bad cop, which needs to happen."},{"startTime":3346.111,"endTime":3350.964,"body":"Sometimes I need somebody to be the"},{"startTime":3346.111,"endTime":3350.964,"body":"bad guy, and if it's a, customer that"},{"startTime":3350.964,"endTime":3354.449,"body":"I, that I'm working with and I really"},{"startTime":3350.964,"endTime":3354.449,"body":"need to keep a relationship with, and"},{"startTime":3354.454,"endTime":3356.944,"body":"they're not coming to to the reviews."},{"startTime":3357.03,"endTime":3357.173,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3357.354,"endTime":3361.706,"body":"It might be that I need that the scrum"},{"startTime":3357.354,"endTime":3361.706,"body":"master isn't somebody that's new to them,"},{"startTime":3361.706,"endTime":3367.316,"body":"that somebody that I am intentionally"},{"startTime":3361.706,"endTime":3367.316,"body":"making sure that is, is at least known."},{"startTime":3367.544,"endTime":3367.916,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3367.944,"endTime":3370.43,"body":"And it's for that"},{"startTime":3367.944,"endTime":3370.43,"body":"purpose, Uhhuh, you know."},{"startTime":3370.478,"endTime":3375.359,"body":"And the other thing is particularly"},{"startTime":3370.478,"endTime":3375.359,"body":"from a scrum master perspective, I think"},{"startTime":3375.816,"endTime":3383.206,"body":"most often the interactions that I am"},{"startTime":3375.816,"endTime":3383.206,"body":"experienced with my scrum master having"},{"startTime":3383.211,"endTime":3388.054,"body":"actually are those facilitating those"},{"startTime":3383.211,"endTime":3388.054,"body":"stakeholder collaboration internally."},{"startTime":3388.111,"endTime":3393.959,"body":"Between departments, between teams,"},{"startTime":3388.111,"endTime":3393.959,"body":"between leadership, between sales,"},{"startTime":3393.959,"endTime":3397.53,"body":"between marketing, between product"},{"startTime":3393.959,"endTime":3397.53,"body":"owners, like whatever it might be."},{"startTime":3397.959,"endTime":3404.121,"body":"So certainly being aware of ways in"},{"startTime":3397.959,"endTime":3404.121,"body":"which the need of the connections"},{"startTime":3404.121,"endTime":3407.178,"body":"that need to be made and ways in"},{"startTime":3404.121,"endTime":3407.178,"body":"which to facilitate those things."},{"startTime":3407.654,"endTime":3410.159,"body":"And who does it and if they're not, Yeah."},{"startTime":3410.159,"endTime":3411.616,"body":"Who does it when there's no scrum master?"},{"startTime":3411.621,"endTime":3414.93,"body":"Every, everybody, because, so when"},{"startTime":3411.621,"endTime":3414.93,"body":"we're talking about stakeholders, so"},{"startTime":3414.93,"endTime":3418.749,"body":"no, everybody should, that anybody"},{"startTime":3414.93,"endTime":3418.749,"body":"should, Well everybody in the sense"},{"startTime":3418.749,"endTime":3423.892,"body":"the what is, who is a stakeholder,"},{"startTime":3418.749,"endTime":3423.892,"body":"Like who, who is being impacted here?"},{"startTime":3423.892,"endTime":3427.016,"body":"And that depends very much"},{"startTime":3423.892,"endTime":3427.016,"body":"on who the stakeholder is."},{"startTime":3427.016,"endTime":3427.206,"body":"No."},{"startTime":3427.406,"endTime":3429.064,"body":"Who, who does, who facilitate."},{"startTime":3429.064,"endTime":3431.521,"body":"I mean, it's gonna be the product"},{"startTime":3429.064,"endTime":3431.521,"body":"owner, because in this case,"},{"startTime":3431.521,"endTime":3433.721,"body":"stakeholder is a very, very broad term."},{"startTime":3433.978,"endTime":3437.492,"body":"If we don't have a, if we don't have"},{"startTime":3433.978,"endTime":3437.492,"body":"a, a scrum master, then the product"},{"startTime":3437.492,"endTime":3441.492,"body":"owner is going to be the one best"},{"startTime":3437.492,"endTime":3441.492,"body":"verse I think I, I hope facilitate."},{"startTime":3441.497,"endTime":3443.635,"body":"I'm, I'm gonna point"},{"startTime":3441.497,"endTime":3443.635,"body":"out though, I hope so."},{"startTime":3443.635,"endTime":3449.14,"body":"But also I would say sales project"},{"startTime":3443.635,"endTime":3449.14,"body":"managers, bas, bas executives I"},{"startTime":3449.14,"endTime":3450.825,"body":"like this becomes real chaotic."},{"startTime":3450.854,"endTime":3450.94,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3451.168,"endTime":3455.111,"body":"when there's not a, a dedicated product"},{"startTime":3451.168,"endTime":3455.111,"body":"owner to the team and the product like"},{"startTime":3455.254,"endTime":3459.111,"body":"this becomes real chaotic to say we"},{"startTime":3455.254,"endTime":3459.111,"body":"need someone to talk to a customer."},{"startTime":3459.587,"endTime":3461.473,"body":"A actually, the, the worst case scenario."},{"startTime":3461.949,"endTime":3466.521,"body":"Someone goes and does it on the"},{"startTime":3461.949,"endTime":3466.521,"body":"product owner's behalf and then"},{"startTime":3466.521,"endTime":3470.235,"body":"comes to the product owner after"},{"startTime":3466.521,"endTime":3470.235,"body":"the fact to say, Hey, I promise X,"},{"startTime":3470.235,"endTime":3472.235,"body":"Y, z sales does, does this a lot."},{"startTime":3472.24,"endTime":3472.321,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":3472.349,"endTime":3473.149,"body":"Notorious for that."},{"startTime":3473.154,"endTime":3473.292,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3473.768,"endTime":3474.483,"body":"Yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":3474.483,"endTime":3475.74,"body":"Nothing good can come out of that."},{"startTime":3476.054,"endTime":3477.34,"body":"There's no scrum master there."},{"startTime":3477.654,"endTime":3478.597,"body":"That's just break it that way."},{"startTime":3478.74,"endTime":3482.197,"body":"Well, but scrum masters aren't gonna be"},{"startTime":3478.74,"endTime":3482.197,"body":"working with, I mean that's something that"},{"startTime":3482.197,"endTime":3487.568,"body":"unfortunately is usually in my experience,"},{"startTime":3482.197,"endTime":3487.568,"body":"handled after the fact a scrum master"},{"startTime":3487.568,"endTime":3489.654,"body":"isn't working with, directly with sales."},{"startTime":3489.654,"endTime":3490.683,"body":"At least preemptively."},{"startTime":3490.806,"endTime":3494.244,"body":"The only reason we bring this up is"},{"startTime":3490.806,"endTime":3494.244,"body":"because, to take us back to the top of"},{"startTime":3494.244,"endTime":3499.187,"body":"the hour, people asking the question"},{"startTime":3494.244,"endTime":3499.187,"body":"of what, what do you do all day?"},{"startTime":3499.216,"endTime":3503.711,"body":"Basically, what, what's happening"},{"startTime":3499.216,"endTime":3503.711,"body":"here is your scrum master is allowing"},{"startTime":3503.711,"endTime":3507.083,"body":"for your product owner to be in more"},{"startTime":3503.711,"endTime":3507.083,"body":"than one place at the same time."},{"startTime":3507.559,"endTime":3510.349,"body":"That's, is your organization"},{"startTime":3507.559,"endTime":3510.349,"body":"willing to pay for that?"},{"startTime":3510.492,"endTime":3513.892,"body":"And, and, and again, like we're"},{"startTime":3510.492,"endTime":3513.892,"body":"talking about product stuff in this"},{"startTime":3513.897,"endTime":3515.178,"body":"part of the video series, Right."},{"startTime":3515.654,"endTime":3519.54,"body":"We're, we're ignoring the fact that"},{"startTime":3515.654,"endTime":3519.54,"body":"there are other, more, like more"},{"startTime":3519.54,"endTime":3521.94,"body":"HR centric things happening mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3522.225,"endTime":3524.225,"body":"that the scrum master is"},{"startTime":3522.225,"endTime":3524.225,"body":"also participating in."},{"startTime":3524.397,"endTime":3527.054,"body":"So now we're talking about the"},{"startTime":3524.397,"endTime":3527.054,"body":"scrum master serving product."},{"startTime":3527.53,"endTime":3527.787,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":3527.844,"endTime":3529.444,"body":"Ex serving and extending."},{"startTime":3529.921,"endTime":3533.054,"body":"And empathizing with the product people."},{"startTime":3533.292,"endTime":3536.121,"body":"Aside from all that facilitating"},{"startTime":3533.292,"endTime":3536.121,"body":"stakeholder collaboration."},{"startTime":3536.302,"endTime":3540.159,"body":"why would you give that to the person"},{"startTime":3536.302,"endTime":3540.159,"body":"who has all of the soft skills of dealing"},{"startTime":3540.159,"endTime":3541.673,"body":"with people and really enjoys that?"},{"startTime":3541.673,"endTime":3542.616,"body":"I can't imagine."},{"startTime":3542.616,"endTime":3543.244,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":3543.359,"endTime":3544.073,"body":"Who would do that?"},{"startTime":3544.302,"endTime":3544.644,"body":"Yeah."}]}