{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.198,"endTime":0.528,"body":"oh."},{"startTime":0.528,"endTime":1.398,"body":"It's arguing Agile."},{"startTime":1.398,"endTime":2.748,"body":"Oh, am I redlining everything?"},{"startTime":2.748,"endTime":3.168,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":3.168,"endTime":3.498,"body":"Whoa."},{"startTime":3.528,"endTime":4.908,"body":", we're back for part three."},{"startTime":5.076,"endTime":5.376,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":5.706,"endTime":6.126,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":6.126,"endTime":8.526,"body":"well it's part three because"},{"startTime":6.126,"endTime":8.526,"body":"we're talking about how the scrum"},{"startTime":8.526,"endTime":9.816,"body":"master serves the organization."},{"startTime":9.816,"endTime":14.206,"body":"So it's part of our series on  what"},{"startTime":9.816,"endTime":14.206,"body":"the scrum master does all day."},{"startTime":14.626,"endTime":15.166,"body":"Correct."},{"startTime":15.346,"endTime":18.436,"body":"just a refresher, we're going"},{"startTime":15.346,"endTime":18.436,"body":"through the scrum guide so we can"},{"startTime":18.436,"endTime":21.136,"body":"use facts to power this discussion."},{"startTime":21.396,"endTime":24.516,"body":"This episode specifically is"},{"startTime":21.396,"endTime":24.516,"body":"about the third, I guess the third"},{"startTime":24.516,"endTime":26.646,"body":"header in the scrum master section."},{"startTime":26.886,"endTime":26.946,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":26.946,"endTime":30.816,"body":"Called the Scrum Master shares"},{"startTime":26.946,"endTime":30.816,"body":"the organization in several ways"},{"startTime":31.086,"endTime":32.736,"body":"that that's what this one's about."},{"startTime":33.146,"endTime":35.786,"body":"on the rejected version"},{"startTime":33.146,"endTime":35.786,"body":"of this, , podcast."},{"startTime":35.816,"endTime":39.656,"body":". Had we recorded one and not liked"},{"startTime":35.816,"endTime":39.656,"body":"it and then rerecorded it now, , it"},{"startTime":39.661,"endTime":44.83,"body":"would've started with, Om, going"},{"startTime":39.661,"endTime":44.83,"body":"on a, a, a long tirade doc."},{"startTime":44.83,"endTime":47.05,"body":"I was gonna say giving"},{"startTime":44.83,"endTime":47.05,"body":"his doctoral dissertation."},{"startTime":47.05,"endTime":51.08,"body":"But tirade also is appropriate,"},{"startTime":47.05,"endTime":51.08,"body":", that most Scrum masters do not"},{"startTime":51.23,"endTime":55.0,"body":"understand that part of their"},{"startTime":51.23,"endTime":55.0,"body":"role is to coach the organization."},{"startTime":55.0,"endTime":58.36,"body":"They think that's like the agile"},{"startTime":55.0,"endTime":58.36,"body":"coach's job or somebody else's job,"},{"startTime":58.57,"endTime":64.11,"body":"or maybe their leads job when they're"},{"startTime":58.57,"endTime":64.11,"body":"in a larger program, But surprise."},{"startTime":64.61,"endTime":65.42,"body":", Here it is."},{"startTime":65.425,"endTime":68.6,"body":"It is in the Scrum Bible,"},{"startTime":65.425,"endTime":68.6,"body":"so it must be true."},{"startTime":69.08,"endTime":69.44,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":69.44,"endTime":73.29,"body":"I mean, look, for the most part,"},{"startTime":69.44,"endTime":73.29,"body":"and I don't wanna generalize, but"},{"startTime":73.29,"endTime":78.08,"body":"for the most part, Scrum masters"},{"startTime":73.29,"endTime":78.08,"body":"are focused on their teams."},{"startTime":78.41,"endTime":83.025,"body":"And to your point, they think"},{"startTime":78.41,"endTime":83.025,"body":"coaching the organization is"},{"startTime":83.025,"endTime":84.725,"body":"kind of above my pay grade."},{"startTime":84.755,"endTime":85.025,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":85.025,"endTime":85.805,"body":"Kind of, right?"},{"startTime":85.985,"endTime":89.615,"body":"You say, Well, can I really"},{"startTime":85.985,"endTime":89.615,"body":"coach senior leaders?"},{"startTime":89.975,"endTime":91.025,"body":"Will they listen to me?"},{"startTime":91.025,"endTime":93.275,"body":"I'm just a lowly scrum master."},{"startTime":93.275,"endTime":93.425,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":93.925,"endTime":97.615,"body":"The fact of the matter is they're,"},{"startTime":93.925,"endTime":97.615,"body":"they are supposed to be doing that."},{"startTime":97.705,"endTime":98.875,"body":"That's part of their role."},{"startTime":99.175,"endTime":102.385,"body":"So first and foremost, before we"},{"startTime":99.175,"endTime":102.385,"body":"kind of deep dive into this, a"},{"startTime":102.385,"endTime":105.115,"body":"scrum master is a coach, right?"},{"startTime":105.145,"endTime":108.025,"body":"I'm gonna repeat that for those"},{"startTime":105.145,"endTime":108.025,"body":"of you in the back of the room."},{"startTime":108.445,"endTime":110.305,"body":"A scrum master is a coach."},{"startTime":110.335,"endTime":112.915,"body":"You coach various aspects."},{"startTime":113.035,"endTime":114.12,"body":"You coach the product."},{"startTime":114.12,"endTime":116.635,"body":"owner, you coach your team,"},{"startTime":114.12,"endTime":116.635,"body":"and you coach the organization."},{"startTime":116.665,"endTime":117.375,"body":"What does that mean?"},{"startTime":117.875,"endTime":120.995,"body":"aren't the teams in the product are"},{"startTime":117.875,"endTime":120.995,"body":"not part of the organization, right?"},{"startTime":121.025,"endTime":123.575,"body":"They are, but the organization"},{"startTime":121.025,"endTime":123.575,"body":"is much more than that."},{"startTime":123.905,"endTime":125.435,"body":"It's all of your stakeholders."},{"startTime":125.765,"endTime":127.935,"body":"It's all of your enablers."},{"startTime":127.975,"endTime":131.265,"body":"disablers, everybody in"},{"startTime":127.975,"endTime":131.265,"body":"the organization basically."},{"startTime":131.315,"endTime":132.155,"body":"Disablers!."},{"startTime":132.17,"endTime":132.415,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":132.415,"endTime":135.555,"body":"I, I couldn't think of a"},{"startTime":132.415,"endTime":135.555,"body":"word that was anti enabler."},{"startTime":135.596,"endTime":140.806,"body":"So the Scrum master's role is to"},{"startTime":135.596,"endTime":140.806,"body":"make sure that people understand what"},{"startTime":140.806,"endTime":142.306,"body":"it means to work in an agile way."},{"startTime":142.406,"endTime":146.396,"body":"The Scrum guy does not say,"},{"startTime":142.406,"endTime":146.396,"body":"you only do those four bullets."},{"startTime":146.426,"endTime":148.286,"body":"It says including, Right."},{"startTime":148.291,"endTime":151.976,"body":"There are a whole bunch of other things"},{"startTime":148.291,"endTime":151.976,"body":"that the scrum guy doesn't dictate."},{"startTime":151.976,"endTime":153.576,"body":"It doesn't say you stop at."},{"startTime":153.596,"endTime":154.886,"body":"Just those four things."},{"startTime":155.306,"endTime":158.576,"body":"Now, one thing I wanna hone"},{"startTime":155.306,"endTime":158.576,"body":"in on is the word adoption."},{"startTime":158.696,"endTime":164.816,"body":"For sure the scrum master is very"},{"startTime":158.696,"endTime":164.816,"body":"capable of advising, coaching,"},{"startTime":165.146,"endTime":167.426,"body":"encouraging the organization on adoption."},{"startTime":167.926,"endTime":173.056,"body":"But I, I certainly believe that is, again,"},{"startTime":167.926,"endTime":173.056,"body":"not the limit, that is not the ceiling"},{"startTime":173.056,"endTime":174.646,"body":"where the scrum master can operate."},{"startTime":174.896,"endTime":180.066,"body":"Adoption is one thing that is classically,"},{"startTime":174.896,"endTime":180.066,"body":"as we say in the coaching circles, doing"},{"startTime":180.066,"endTime":183.276,"body":"scrum or doing agile, sorry, doing agile."},{"startTime":183.396,"endTime":183.696,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":184.16,"endTime":188.59,"body":"You need to be able to coach the"},{"startTime":184.16,"endTime":188.59,"body":"organization beyond just the adoption."},{"startTime":188.59,"endTime":188.83,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":188.83,"endTime":189.94,"body":"You can start with adoption."},{"startTime":189.94,"endTime":190.75,"body":"It's a great start."},{"startTime":190.87,"endTime":191.02,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":191.426,"endTime":196.051,"body":"And after that, over time, you"},{"startTime":191.426,"endTime":196.051,"body":"need to get them , to being agile."},{"startTime":196.111,"endTime":196.201,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":196.441,"endTime":201.931,"body":", it's ingrained in everything they do"},{"startTime":196.441,"endTime":201.931,"body":"as opposed to specifically certain"},{"startTime":202.431,"endTime":205.011,"body":"ceremonies, which are now called events."},{"startTime":205.271,"endTime":206.741,"body":"It's not just adoption."},{"startTime":206.771,"endTime":208.841,"body":"It is thinking about lean practices."},{"startTime":208.846,"endTime":210.801,"body":"It's thinking about funding."},{"startTime":211.301,"endTime":213.161,"body":"products rather than projects."},{"startTime":213.191,"endTime":213.281,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":213.281,"endTime":215.021,"body":"Those things aren't really adoption."},{"startTime":215.515,"endTime":219.685,"body":"When people say adoption as a scrum"},{"startTime":215.515,"endTime":219.685,"body":"master, they're thinking more about"},{"startTime":220.185,"endTime":224.315,"body":"the practices, the day to days, the"},{"startTime":220.185,"endTime":224.315,"body":"events, the scrum events, making"},{"startTime":224.32,"endTime":227.645,"body":"sure the organization attends"},{"startTime":224.32,"endTime":227.645,"body":"these events where they're needed."},{"startTime":227.845,"endTime":231.085,"body":"The sprint, review the, the"},{"startTime":227.845,"endTime":231.085,"body":"retrospectives for the teams, et cetera."},{"startTime":231.585,"endTime":236.135,"body":"Those are adoption, adopting"},{"startTime":231.585,"endTime":236.135,"body":"practices as opposed to evolving"},{"startTime":236.135,"endTime":238.505,"body":"how we behave day in, day out."},{"startTime":239.005,"endTime":241.285,"body":"To work in an agile"},{"startTime":239.005,"endTime":241.285,"body":"way, The frame of mind."},{"startTime":241.285,"endTime":241.495,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":241.585,"endTime":241.885,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":241.885,"endTime":243.355,"body":"So it's the being agile piece."},{"startTime":243.656,"endTime":246.425,"body":"Listen, there's not a lot"},{"startTime":243.656,"endTime":246.425,"body":"of money in frame of mind."},{"startTime":246.516,"endTime":246.846,"body":"Alright."},{"startTime":246.936,"endTime":249.256,"body":"Can, can we put dollars and cents to that?"},{"startTime":249.616,"endTime":252.612,"body":"I'm already getting my angles"},{"startTime":249.616,"endTime":252.612,"body":"of pushback ready for this."},{"startTime":252.617,"endTime":258.262,"body":"Cuz I I, again, we, we frame in the"},{"startTime":252.617,"endTime":258.262,"body":"first part of the series, we frame this"},{"startTime":258.322,"endTime":262.907,"body":"from the example of you are kind of"},{"startTime":258.322,"endTime":262.907,"body":"having to explain your job, you know."},{"startTime":262.997,"endTime":267.657,"body":"So when I was a scrumer on a program"},{"startTime":262.997,"endTime":267.657,"body":"one time as part of other duties,"},{"startTime":267.657,"endTime":269.807,"body":"like I was a skier plus other things."},{"startTime":269.807,"endTime":272.63,"body":"But when I was a scrum master on"},{"startTime":269.807,"endTime":272.63,"body":"a program one time it there was an"},{"startTime":272.63,"endTime":276.44,"body":"attitude of we don't really think"},{"startTime":272.63,"endTime":276.44,"body":"we need a scrum master, but we're"},{"startTime":276.44,"endTime":277.88,"body":"kind of being forced to have one."},{"startTime":278.24,"endTime":280.58,"body":"So we don't really think"},{"startTime":278.24,"endTime":280.58,"body":"you do anything all day."},{"startTime":280.61,"endTime":280.88,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":280.91,"endTime":282.06,"body":"Well, I mean, idea."},{"startTime":282.14,"endTime":282.38,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":282.41,"endTime":285.35,"body":"But, but, but that's, I would"},{"startTime":282.41,"endTime":285.35,"body":"expect that a lot of people."},{"startTime":285.85,"endTime":290.902,"body":"Who are in a Scrum master role, regardless"},{"startTime":285.85,"endTime":290.902,"body":"of that role's been retitled, delivery"},{"startTime":290.907,"endTime":292.042,"body":"lead, whatever I mean, it doesn't matter."},{"startTime":292.542,"endTime":295.45,"body":"They're gonna deal with this,"},{"startTime":292.542,"endTime":295.45,"body":"this attitude at some point"},{"startTime":295.51,"endTime":297.37,"body":"in their career at some point."},{"startTime":297.76,"endTime":298.21,"body":"No doubt."},{"startTime":298.71,"endTime":299.55,"body":"Yeah, no doubt."},{"startTime":299.55,"endTime":300.33,"body":"You're absolutely right."},{"startTime":300.33,"endTime":301.5,"body":"They are gonna deal with that."},{"startTime":302.0,"endTime":306.755,"body":"So I think organizations that say,"},{"startTime":302.0,"endTime":306.755,"body":"What does Scrum Master do all day?"},{"startTime":307.255,"endTime":310.135,"body":"It's not, it's not,"},{"startTime":307.255,"endTime":310.135,"body":"let's just go granular."},{"startTime":310.135,"endTime":313.855,"body":"It's not just the organization,"},{"startTime":310.135,"endTime":313.855,"body":"it's, it's at different levels."},{"startTime":313.885,"endTime":318.505,"body":"The people say that, and those people"},{"startTime":313.885,"endTime":318.505,"body":"invaribly don't really understand"},{"startTime":318.565,"endTime":319.555,"body":"what does Scrum Master does."},{"startTime":319.855,"endTime":324.945,"body":"So flipping that a little bit, what should"},{"startTime":319.855,"endTime":324.945,"body":"this scrum master be doing in order to"},{"startTime":325.125,"endTime":327.825,"body":"say, Okay, here's what we do all day."},{"startTime":327.915,"endTime":331.958,"body":"I mean, I'm working eight, 10"},{"startTime":327.915,"endTime":331.958,"body":"hours a day and yet you're thinking"},{"startTime":331.958,"endTime":333.188,"body":"I don't do anything all day."},{"startTime":333.188,"endTime":334.418,"body":"So, so where's that?"},{"startTime":334.423,"endTime":335.288,"body":"How does that play out?"},{"startTime":335.788,"endTime":338.518,"body":"The best way to convince somebody."},{"startTime":339.018,"endTime":342.828,"body":"You can tell 'em all day long the cars"},{"startTime":339.018,"endTime":342.828,"body":"come home and that doesn't really help."},{"startTime":342.858,"endTime":343.098,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":343.128,"endTime":345.918,"body":"The best way to convince somebody"},{"startTime":343.128,"endTime":345.918,"body":"is to say, Listen, why don't you"},{"startTime":345.918,"endTime":347.478,"body":"shadow me for a couple of days?"},{"startTime":347.778,"endTime":348.108,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":348.228,"endTime":348.288,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":348.318,"endTime":349.308,"body":"And see what happens."},{"startTime":349.668,"endTime":354.618,"body":"Because a lot of times Scrum Masters"},{"startTime":349.668,"endTime":354.618,"body":"work is emergent and it's not"},{"startTime":354.618,"endTime":357.168,"body":"something that you can say, Well"},{"startTime":354.618,"endTime":357.168,"body":"here's what I'm gonna do this week."},{"startTime":357.228,"endTime":357.468,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":357.828,"endTime":358.878,"body":"And forecast it out."},{"startTime":359.378,"endTime":362.908,"body":"So I think that's a good approach"},{"startTime":359.378,"endTime":362.908,"body":"with those people that say, What"},{"startTime":362.908,"endTime":364.048,"body":"does the Scrum master do all day"},{"startTime":364.498,"endTime":367.468,"body":"when it comes to serving the organization?"},{"startTime":367.968,"endTime":372.888,"body":"It becomes even more important to make"},{"startTime":367.968,"endTime":372.888,"body":"sure the people who are saying this,"},{"startTime":372.893,"endTime":377.318,"body":"that are outside of the immediate sphere"},{"startTime":372.893,"endTime":377.318,"body":"of influence of the scrum master really"},{"startTime":377.318,"endTime":380.918,"body":"understand that it's the scrum master"},{"startTime":377.318,"endTime":380.918,"body":"that is keeping the machine going."},{"startTime":381.418,"endTime":385.408,"body":"And it's gonna be harder for them to"},{"startTime":381.418,"endTime":385.408,"body":"understand if you just talk about it."},{"startTime":385.408,"endTime":389.398,"body":"So invite them in, invite them in"},{"startTime":385.408,"endTime":389.398,"body":"to various things that you do all"},{"startTime":389.398,"endTime":394.258,"body":"day and let them see for themselves"},{"startTime":389.398,"endTime":394.258,"body":"whether they accept or not."},{"startTime":394.333,"endTime":396.193,"body":"It's different question, but yeah."},{"startTime":396.293,"endTime":399.468,"body":"So the Scrum master"},{"startTime":396.293,"endTime":399.468,"body":"serves your organization."},{"startTime":399.498,"endTime":401.148,"body":"We're gonna walk through"},{"startTime":399.498,"endTime":401.148,"body":"the bullet points."},{"startTime":401.215,"endTime":403.878,"body":"My framework, I'm gonna use the"},{"startTime":401.215,"endTime":403.878,"body":"same framework I use in the first"},{"startTime":403.878,"endTime":405.498,"body":"episode only with less people."},{"startTime":405.528,"endTime":408.982,"body":"So we're gonna move faster about,"},{"startTime":405.528,"endTime":408.982,"body":"about gimme an example of this."},{"startTime":409.312,"endTime":413.422,"body":"And then the second question is,"},{"startTime":409.312,"endTime":413.422,"body":"who does this, when there is no"},{"startTime":413.422,"endTime":414.862,"body":"scrum master in the organization?"},{"startTime":414.862,"endTime":416.422,"body":"So that we're gonna try to"},{"startTime":414.862,"endTime":416.422,"body":"walk through it like that."},{"startTime":416.452,"endTime":416.632,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":416.772,"endTime":417.092,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":417.097,"endTime":420.442,"body":"So the, the first bullet point here"},{"startTime":417.097,"endTime":420.442,"body":"is leading training and coaching"},{"startTime":420.562,"endTime":422.872,"body":"the organization in Scrum adoption."},{"startTime":423.372,"endTime":424.177,"body":"Like I like."},{"startTime":424.612,"endTime":427.912,"body":"So this is a scrum guide, so of"},{"startTime":424.612,"endTime":427.912,"body":"course it says scrum adoption."},{"startTime":427.972,"endTime":431.812,"body":"I'm going to like, there, there's"},{"startTime":427.972,"endTime":431.812,"body":"a removing barriers between"},{"startTime":431.812,"endTime":432.742,"body":"stakeholders, scrum teams."},{"startTime":432.952,"endTime":435.742,"body":"There are other bullet points"},{"startTime":432.952,"endTime":435.742,"body":"talking about empirical approach."},{"startTime":435.892,"endTime":441.905,"body":"There's other bullet points that"},{"startTime":435.892,"endTime":441.905,"body":"wrap larger concepts like lean"},{"startTime":442.405,"endTime":445.712,"body":"and a lot of the concepts outta"},{"startTime":442.405,"endTime":445.712,"body":"kaban, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":445.712,"endTime":451.042,"body":"A lot of things that are not Scrum,"},{"startTime":445.712,"endTime":451.042,"body":"there's a lot of concepts here that I"},{"startTime":451.042,"endTime":456.322,"body":"could put under the banner of leading"},{"startTime":451.042,"endTime":456.322,"body":"training and coaching in scrum adoption."},{"startTime":456.322,"endTime":462.532,"body":"Like I, if you, if you understand how to"},{"startTime":456.322,"endTime":462.532,"body":"do kaban well, again, this is my personal"},{"startTime":462.532,"endTime":463.432,"body":"opinion, it's not based on anything."},{"startTime":463.612,"endTime":464.362,"body":"I think you're gonna be."},{"startTime":464.862,"endTime":468.612,"body":", you'll be a better, I'm"},{"startTime":464.862,"endTime":468.612,"body":"gonna say implementer that"},{"startTime":468.612,"endTime":469.482,"body":"I don't think that's a word."},{"startTime":469.542,"endTime":470.592,"body":"Implementer practitioner."},{"startTime":470.622,"endTime":473.292,"body":"You'll, you'll be a better, Well, it's"},{"startTime":470.622,"endTime":473.292,"body":"not just, it's not just practitioner like"},{"startTime":473.292,"endTime":477.372,"body":"it's practitioner, but, but you will be"},{"startTime":473.292,"endTime":477.372,"body":"better at implementing Scrum throughout"},{"startTime":477.372,"endTime":479.502,"body":"your organization at various levels."},{"startTime":479.632,"endTime":483.592,"body":"If you understand where, where the,"},{"startTime":479.632,"endTime":483.592,"body":"where Scrum, where the borders of"},{"startTime":483.592,"endTime":487.087,"body":"Scrum are and then where a flow begins."},{"startTime":487.159,"endTime":490.069,"body":"The reason I'm bringing this up is"},{"startTime":487.159,"endTime":490.069,"body":"because I think the most effective Scrum"},{"startTime":490.069,"endTime":492.349,"body":"masters understand Scrum very well."},{"startTime":492.709,"endTime":495.829,"body":"They understand comma very well"},{"startTime":492.709,"endTime":495.829,"body":"and they understand which parts"},{"startTime":495.829,"endTime":497.299,"body":"of the organization, which."},{"startTime":497.799,"endTime":500.529,"body":"Which method will be successful?"},{"startTime":500.529,"endTime":501.849,"body":"Which model will be successful?"},{"startTime":501.849,"endTime":501.909,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":502.239,"endTime":505.319,"body":"Now people in LinkedIn, Oh,"},{"startTime":502.239,"endTime":505.319,"body":"you're  going straight to models."},{"startTime":505.319,"endTime":510.669,"body":"Oh, you're not doing like, not, Yes,"},{"startTime":505.319,"endTime":510.669,"body":"but like if you work at Google or"},{"startTime":510.669,"endTime":513.939,"body":"Amazon, please feel free to comment"},{"startTime":510.669,"endTime":513.939,"body":"on this and talk to me about it."},{"startTime":513.939,"endTime":517.419,"body":"If you work anywhere else, if you are an"},{"startTime":513.939,"endTime":517.419,"body":"executive and you're listening to this,"},{"startTime":517.919,"endTime":521.069,"body":"please tell me about the process the"},{"startTime":517.919,"endTime":521.069,"body":"executives use to move stuff forward."},{"startTime":521.279,"endTime":527.009,"body":"Because I would bet that every"},{"startTime":521.279,"endTime":527.009,"body":"week you don't know what week one"},{"startTime":527.429,"endTime":528.989,"body":"versus week two versus week three."},{"startTime":529.109,"endTime":530.339,"body":"You don't know what"},{"startTime":529.109,"endTime":530.339,"body":"you're gonna deal with."},{"startTime":530.789,"endTime":534.019,"body":"Things are so chaotic that"},{"startTime":530.789,"endTime":534.019,"body":"you need, a framework that is"},{"startTime":534.019,"endTime":539.739,"body":"lightweight enough for you to deal"},{"startTime":534.019,"endTime":539.739,"body":"with your work in terms of to do."},{"startTime":540.239,"endTime":543.589,"body":"Doing done and priorities and,"},{"startTime":543.644,"endTime":546.844,"body":"X axis, Y axis and that's it."},{"startTime":546.934,"endTime":547.294,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":547.354,"endTime":548.134,"body":"Simple."},{"startTime":548.404,"endTime":548.584,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":548.614,"endTime":549.724,"body":"Real simple."},{"startTime":550.224,"endTime":552.504,"body":"Put it on a board, make it transparent."},{"startTime":552.591,"endTime":553.311,"body":"Knock it out."},{"startTime":553.811,"endTime":555.251,"body":"You got your flow, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":555.251,"endTime":559.241,"body":"If you really need metrics at that level,"},{"startTime":555.251,"endTime":559.241,"body":"most executives probably don't do that."},{"startTime":559.538,"endTime":561.17,"body":"But I think you're way more effective."},{"startTime":561.175,"endTime":564.87,"body":"So we why I'm bringing this up is leading"},{"startTime":561.175,"endTime":564.87,"body":"training and coaching the organization in"},{"startTime":564.87,"endTime":568.68,"body":"Scrum adoption, so I what you're talking"},{"startTime":564.87,"endTime":568.68,"body":"about is coaching up in the organization."},{"startTime":568.77,"endTime":576.2,"body":"I think this first bullet point says the"},{"startTime":568.77,"endTime":576.2,"body":"upstream stuff over here is part of your"},{"startTime":576.2,"endTime":578.98,"body":"role, but the upstream stuff might not."},{"startTime":579.48,"endTime":584.31,"body":"Scrum Scrum, but the downstream"},{"startTime":579.48,"endTime":584.31,"body":"stuff might be 100% scrum."},{"startTime":584.315,"endTime":588.63,"body":"So you need to be able to draw a dividing"},{"startTime":584.315,"endTime":588.63,"body":"line in the organization and say, Okay."},{"startTime":588.63,"endTime":592.67,"body":"Everything to the right,"},{"startTime":588.63,"endTime":592.67,"body":"everything downstream, I can"},{"startTime":592.73,"endTime":594.56,"body":"lead and train and coach."},{"startTime":594.63,"endTime":595.19,"body":"Great."},{"startTime":595.69,"endTime":598.42,"body":"I think this is, this is"},{"startTime":595.69,"endTime":598.42,"body":"like the softball part Yeah."},{"startTime":598.48,"endTime":600.28,"body":"Of this discussion we're about to have."},{"startTime":600.28,"endTime":600.34,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":600.34,"endTime":603.67,"body":"Cause I'm saying you need to be"},{"startTime":600.34,"endTime":603.67,"body":"able to lead and train and coach"},{"startTime":604.17,"endTime":607.77,"body":"wherever the line is drawn to the"},{"startTime":604.17,"endTime":607.77,"body":"right downstream in the organization."},{"startTime":608.22,"endTime":608.82,"body":"Yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":608.82,"endTime":612.15,"body":"I I think that first bullet"},{"startTime":608.82,"endTime":612.15,"body":"says scrum adoption because,"},{"startTime":612.42,"endTime":613.71,"body":"Well, it's the scrum guide."},{"startTime":614.07,"endTime":614.25,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":614.25,"endTime":614.49,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":614.85,"endTime":618.57,"body":"So the everything in there is gonna"},{"startTime":614.85,"endTime":618.57,"body":"be about Scrum, but to your point,"},{"startTime":619.07,"endTime":624.56,"body":"a savvy scrum master worth his"},{"startTime":619.07,"endTime":624.56,"body":"or her salt should know when the"},{"startTime":624.56,"endTime":628.72,"body":"appropriate methodology, scrum, or"},{"startTime":624.56,"endTime":628.72,"body":"whatever you wanna call it, is used."},{"startTime":629.25,"endTime":632.61,"body":"At a leadership level or outside"},{"startTime":629.25,"endTime":632.61,"body":"the organization, typically you"},{"startTime":632.61,"endTime":637.02,"body":"don't have implementation teams or"},{"startTime":632.61,"endTime":637.02,"body":"dev teams or anything like that."},{"startTime":637.44,"endTime":640.92,"body":"It, it may well be appropriate"},{"startTime":637.44,"endTime":640.92,"body":"to use something else."},{"startTime":641.31,"endTime":645.44,"body":"I know certainly at a, at a leadership"},{"startTime":641.31,"endTime":645.44,"body":"level, when you're coaching leadership,"},{"startTime":645.68,"endTime":647.09,"body":"you don't put them in a scrum team,"},{"startTime":647.28,"endTime":651.18,"body":"You create a leadership combine"},{"startTime":647.28,"endTime":651.18,"body":"board probably, and you know, and"},{"startTime":651.18,"endTime":655.46,"body":"you make sure that that's visible to"},{"startTime":651.18,"endTime":655.46,"body":"everybody, Revisit that frequently"},{"startTime":655.465,"endTime":657.75,"body":"and say, why are things not moving?"},{"startTime":657.755,"endTime":658.18,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":658.18,"endTime":658.34,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":658.34,"endTime":661.23,"body":"And, and kind of implicitly you"},{"startTime":658.34,"endTime":661.23,"body":"are also coaching them along"},{"startTime":661.23,"endTime":663.22,"body":"saying let's visit this every day."},{"startTime":663.72,"endTime":667.05,"body":"What is stopping us from moving"},{"startTime":663.72,"endTime":667.05,"body":"ticket and go, What's stopping"},{"startTime":667.05,"endTime":668.37,"body":"us from moving this to the right?"},{"startTime":668.38,"endTime":668.74,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":669.04,"endTime":673.312,"body":"So I think that that is something that"},{"startTime":669.04,"endTime":673.312,"body":"every scrum as should bear in mind, is."},{"startTime":673.812,"endTime":675.252,"body":"horses for courses, right?"},{"startTime":675.252,"endTime":678.852,"body":"You don't necessarily shove"},{"startTime":675.252,"endTime":678.852,"body":"scrum at everything everywhere."},{"startTime":678.852,"endTime":678.942,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":679.242,"endTime":680.502,"body":", that doesn't really help you."},{"startTime":680.682,"endTime":682.447,"body":"Well, I know, I, I took us off track."},{"startTime":682.447,"endTime":686.937,"body":"So leading, let's break , each"},{"startTime":682.447,"endTime":686.937,"body":"individual item down in the first"},{"startTime":686.937,"endTime":691.157,"body":"bullet point leading the organization"},{"startTime":686.937,"endTime":691.157,"body":"in its scrum adoption, right?"},{"startTime":691.157,"endTime":694.487,"body":"Leading the organization, training the"},{"startTime":691.157,"endTime":694.487,"body":"organization, coaching the organization"},{"startTime":694.547,"endTime":698.387,"body":"in, its, in its scrum adoption, like"},{"startTime":694.547,"endTime":698.387,"body":"training is very straightforward."},{"startTime":698.387,"endTime":700.157,"body":"I mean, you're the person"},{"startTime":698.387,"endTime":700.157,"body":"that's gonna train them."},{"startTime":700.157,"endTime":703.327,"body":"Like, if you're not okay being the"},{"startTime":700.157,"endTime":703.327,"body":"person that's gonna train them, maybe"},{"startTime":703.327,"endTime":704.737,"body":"this is not a great role, right?"},{"startTime":704.737,"endTime":706.057,"body":"Like, we'll find someone else."},{"startTime":706.507,"endTime":707.107,"body":"People are, Yeah."},{"startTime":707.107,"endTime":708.967,"body":"Or delegated if you"},{"startTime":707.107,"endTime":708.967,"body":"can't, if it's possible."},{"startTime":709.187,"endTime":712.459,"body":"So now we're onto coaching and leading."},{"startTime":712.959,"endTime":716.979,"body":"I feel like if people, if people have"},{"startTime":712.959,"endTime":716.979,"body":"come to this podcast, they are aware,"},{"startTime":716.979,"endTime":721.014,"body":"at least minimally aware, Of what is"},{"startTime":716.979,"endTime":721.014,"body":"involved in coaching, Being the coach,"},{"startTime":721.104,"endTime":724.734,"body":"asking questions, saying, what have you"},{"startTime":721.104,"endTime":724.734,"body":"tried, Trying to get them through things."},{"startTime":724.734,"endTime":724.824,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":724.824,"endTime":726.714,"body":"Trying to help them through"},{"startTime":724.824,"endTime":726.714,"body":"things rather than telling them,"},{"startTime":726.834,"endTime":728.034,"body":"ask them questions to get them."},{"startTime":728.534,"endTime":734.334,"body":"But I feel the, like the dark horse in"},{"startTime":728.534,"endTime":734.334,"body":"this sentence bullet point is leading"},{"startTime":734.674,"endTime":737.394,"body":"the organization in its scrum adoption."},{"startTime":737.874,"endTime":738.144,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":738.644,"endTime":738.824,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":738.824,"endTime":741.734,"body":"So I think there are various"},{"startTime":738.824,"endTime":741.734,"body":"facets to this one, right?"},{"startTime":741.734,"endTime":742.964,"body":"So leading, What does that mean?"},{"startTime":742.969,"endTime":745.064,"body":"Do you just simply go"},{"startTime":742.969,"endTime":745.064,"body":"lead all these teams?"},{"startTime":745.069,"endTime":749.299,"body":"It probably doesn't mean that in"},{"startTime":745.069,"endTime":749.299,"body":"practice, In practice leading means"},{"startTime":749.329,"endTime":753.339,"body":"you take your team and you show"},{"startTime":749.329,"endTime":753.339,"body":"everybody in the org organization"},{"startTime":753.839,"endTime":756.059,"body":"by example of how you're succeeding."},{"startTime":756.159,"endTime":760.379,"body":"So do what you're doing and"},{"startTime":756.159,"endTime":760.379,"body":"radiate that everywhere."},{"startTime":760.439,"endTime":760.619,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":760.829,"endTime":763.529,"body":"You know, just make sure that"},{"startTime":760.829,"endTime":763.529,"body":"everyone's aware here are things"},{"startTime":763.529,"endTime":764.639,"body":"that we're doing that are working."},{"startTime":764.909,"endTime":765.639,"body":"Oh, and by the."},{"startTime":766.139,"endTime":768.209,"body":"Here are things that we're"},{"startTime":766.139,"endTime":768.209,"body":"doing that are not working."},{"startTime":768.299,"endTime":768.449,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":768.599,"endTime":770.339,"body":"And we're learning from that."},{"startTime":770.399,"endTime":770.609,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":770.609,"endTime":771.419,"body":"That's important."},{"startTime":771.479,"endTime":773.989,"body":"As important lesson as"},{"startTime":771.479,"endTime":773.989,"body":"what's working to me."},{"startTime":773.989,"endTime":776.719,"body":"That is, that falls squarely in"},{"startTime":773.989,"endTime":776.719,"body":"line with leading because you're"},{"startTime":776.724,"endTime":779.199,"body":"setting, you're setting expectations."},{"startTime":779.199,"endTime":781.539,"body":"If you work this way, you"},{"startTime":779.199,"endTime":781.539,"body":"too can be successful."},{"startTime":781.539,"endTime":781.749,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":781.989,"endTime":786.069,"body":"And then reach out and lend a hand"},{"startTime":781.989,"endTime":786.069,"body":"and say, if you want to adopt these"},{"startTime":786.069,"endTime":788.559,"body":"practices, I can help you set that up."},{"startTime":788.889,"endTime":793.439,"body":"So if you are in, most scrum masters"},{"startTime":788.889,"endTime":793.439,"body":"are in some sort of dev environment,"},{"startTime":793.649,"endTime":797.459,"body":"but if you're in that and you see that"},{"startTime":793.649,"endTime":797.459,"body":"there's interest or you're generating"},{"startTime":797.464,"endTime":799.619,"body":"interest in other business domains mm-hmm."},{"startTime":799.919,"endTime":804.459,"body":"be ready to kind of reach out and"},{"startTime":799.919,"endTime":804.459,"body":"say, Can I help you in this way?"},{"startTime":804.459,"endTime":804.669,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":804.729,"endTime":807.349,"body":"They're not developing"},{"startTime":804.729,"endTime":807.349,"body":"software necessarily."},{"startTime":807.379,"endTime":811.479,"body":"It could be hr, finance, whoever"},{"startTime":807.379,"endTime":811.479,"body":"the scrum master needs to know."},{"startTime":811.559,"endTime":814.739,"body":"They don't necessarily need"},{"startTime":811.559,"endTime":814.739,"body":"to work in a Scrum way."},{"startTime":814.979,"endTime":817.874,"body":"They need to have a backlog of sorts."},{"startTime":817.874,"endTime":817.934,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":818.054,"endTime":819.584,"body":"They need to prioritize that."},{"startTime":819.584,"endTime":822.674,"body":"They need to rank, stack rank it,"},{"startTime":819.584,"endTime":822.674,"body":"they need to work through that."},{"startTime":822.734,"endTime":824.354,"body":"And maybe it looks like a combine board."},{"startTime":824.384,"endTime":825.051,"body":"That's okay."},{"startTime":825.051,"endTime":827.901,"body":"But you are leading them cuz they"},{"startTime":825.051,"endTime":827.901,"body":"don't know what that is even all about."},{"startTime":828.141,"endTime":831.561,"body":"They don't know the rigor that's"},{"startTime":828.141,"endTime":831.561,"body":"involved and, everybody here watching"},{"startTime":831.566,"endTime":837.934,"body":"this so far, all 10 of you know that"},{"startTime":831.566,"endTime":837.934,"body":"gun bond requires more rigor, not less."},{"startTime":837.934,"endTime":837.994,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":838.024,"endTime":838.594,"body":"More discipline."},{"startTime":838.594,"endTime":842.514,"body":"And that's another podcast that we'll"},{"startTime":838.594,"endTime":842.514,"body":"do at one point to show why that is."},{"startTime":842.604,"endTime":846.144,"body":"Maybe if we have a few quarters"},{"startTime":842.604,"endTime":846.144,"body":"maybe that we can find the sofa."},{"startTime":846.644,"endTime":849.974,"body":"the way I look at leading when it,"},{"startTime":846.644,"endTime":849.974,"body":"when it says like, leading is your job."},{"startTime":850.064,"endTime":853.552,"body":"Like leading is one of those things"},{"startTime":850.064,"endTime":853.552,"body":"in the organization where it, it"},{"startTime":853.552,"endTime":855.382,"body":"like excuses kind of fade away."},{"startTime":855.382,"endTime":857.025,"body":"Like silos kind of fade away."},{"startTime":857.025,"endTime":858.225,"body":"Turf wars kind of fade away."},{"startTime":858.725,"endTime":864.625,"body":"And, and your job is to, to do what"},{"startTime":858.725,"endTime":864.625,"body":"it takes to get whatever done, what,"},{"startTime":864.625,"endTime":866.485,"body":"whatever it is to get it done, you know?"},{"startTime":866.485,"endTime":870.569,"body":"But now there's a, I guess the star"},{"startTime":866.485,"endTime":870.569,"body":"next to this one is if you come in and"},{"startTime":870.574,"endTime":874.937,"body":"you're aligned under some director or"},{"startTime":870.574,"endTime":874.937,"body":"development or director of you know,"},{"startTime":875.187,"endTime":879.077,"body":"director of the dust bin or whatever,"},{"startTime":875.187,"endTime":879.077,"body":", some rando person in the hierarchy who's"},{"startTime":879.107,"endTime":881.327,"body":"buried eight steps deep or whatever."},{"startTime":881.327,"endTime":885.397,"body":"Like, you probably are not"},{"startTime":881.327,"endTime":885.397,"body":"delegated the proper authority"},{"startTime":885.457,"endTime":886.837,"body":"to, with the role as well."},{"startTime":886.842,"endTime":889.027,"body":"So you're, it's gonna"},{"startTime":886.842,"endTime":889.027,"body":"be a real uphill climb."},{"startTime":889.157,"endTime":891.167,"body":"There'll be people that, that"},{"startTime":889.157,"endTime":891.167,"body":"are like, Wow, you don't need"},{"startTime":891.167,"endTime":893.747,"body":"authority from your role to lead."},{"startTime":893.747,"endTime":895.757,"body":"I'm like, Well, yeah, that's true."},{"startTime":896.257,"endTime":900.083,"body":"But, but it will be harder without it."},{"startTime":900.083,"endTime":904.133,"body":"It'll be very difficult if you're"},{"startTime":900.083,"endTime":904.133,"body":"buried in some segmenting organiz."},{"startTime":904.133,"endTime":904.433,"body":"Far."},{"startTime":904.438,"endTime":907.793,"body":"I mean, like going to a sword"},{"startTime":904.438,"endTime":907.793,"body":"fight without a sword or a shield."},{"startTime":907.813,"endTime":908.213,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":908.213,"endTime":913.27,"body":"But yeah, no, some people will actually"},{"startTime":908.213,"endTime":913.27,"body":"work around the controls, in quotes that"},{"startTime":913.35,"endTime":914.89,"body":"are a lot of organizations put in place."},{"startTime":914.98,"endTime":915.07,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":915.495,"endTime":919.02,"body":", they work around that that they'll"},{"startTime":915.495,"endTime":919.02,"body":"form their own little alliances and"},{"startTime":919.32,"endTime":924.36,"body":"go around, as I say, the, the hard"},{"startTime":919.32,"endTime":924.36,"body":"approval processes and whatnot."},{"startTime":924.6,"endTime":924.84,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":924.9,"endTime":927.47,"body":"Those are people that are the go-getters."},{"startTime":927.47,"endTime":927.74,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":927.745,"endTime":929.96,"body":"Well, I'm gonna go get,"},{"startTime":927.745,"endTime":929.96,"body":"get this done Right."},{"startTime":929.96,"endTime":932.2,"body":"And I'm not gonna let this"},{"startTime":929.96,"endTime":932.2,"body":"other thing stand in my way."},{"startTime":932.702,"endTime":935.395,"body":"That will get you so far,"},{"startTime":932.702,"endTime":935.395,"body":"but it's better than nothing."},{"startTime":935.945,"endTime":937.045,"body":"It's, Oh, coaching."},{"startTime":937.135,"endTime":938.275,"body":"Oh, I wanna touch on that a little bit."},{"startTime":938.275,"endTime":938.335,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":938.365,"endTime":938.725,"body":"Coaching."},{"startTime":938.795,"endTime":938.915,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":938.915,"endTime":939.955,"body":"So coaching the organization."},{"startTime":940.165,"endTime":943.531,"body":"Sometimes when this discussion"},{"startTime":940.165,"endTime":943.531,"body":"happens with Scrum masters,"},{"startTime":943.531,"endTime":945.741,"body":"they go, but I'm a scrum master."},{"startTime":946.041,"endTime":946.791,"body":"I'm not a coach."},{"startTime":947.291,"endTime":948.371,"body":"We have an agile coach for that."},{"startTime":948.541,"endTime":948.941,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":949.151,"endTime":949.511,"body":". Right."},{"startTime":949.601,"endTime":954.091,"body":"And isn't the agile coach the one"},{"startTime":949.601,"endTime":954.091,"body":"responsible for coaching the organization?"},{"startTime":954.541,"endTime":959.051,"body":"Well, the answer is yes and"},{"startTime":954.541,"endTime":959.051,"body":"no . So let me explain it."},{"startTime":959.051,"endTime":959.561,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":959.561,"endTime":961.571,"body":"Because they're an agile coach."},{"startTime":961.601,"endTime":962.561,"body":"It's in their title."},{"startTime":962.681,"endTime":964.661,"body":"They coach everybody everywhere."},{"startTime":964.721,"endTime":964.961,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":965.231,"endTime":967.541,"body":"The organization as well as the teams."},{"startTime":967.991,"endTime":969.221,"body":"So true."},{"startTime":969.251,"endTime":970.181,"body":"It's in their purview."},{"startTime":970.271,"endTime":976.911,"body":"However, a scrum master isn't just"},{"startTime":970.271,"endTime":976.911,"body":"master in Scrum for a team or two teams."},{"startTime":977.331,"endTime":980.151,"body":"And if they're over more"},{"startTime":977.331,"endTime":980.151,"body":"than two teams, then yeah."},{"startTime":980.211,"endTime":981.021,"body":"Just, Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":981.051,"endTime":981.801,"body":"Different problems."},{"startTime":982.151,"endTime":986.771,"body":"They need to understand the"},{"startTime":982.151,"endTime":986.771,"body":"distinction between pure coaching"},{"startTime":987.036,"endTime":992.626,"body":"and making sure that there's showing"},{"startTime":987.036,"endTime":992.626,"body":"the way, the right way to the rest"},{"startTime":992.626,"endTime":994.941,"body":"of the organization to change too."},{"startTime":994.971,"endTime":995.301,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":995.301,"endTime":996.531,"body":"So here's what I mean by that."},{"startTime":996.561,"endTime":1000.901,"body":"They're not a professional coach, even"},{"startTime":996.561,"endTime":1000.901,"body":"agile coaches, I would argue, are not"},{"startTime":1000.901,"endTime":1002.461,"body":"professional coaches for the most part."},{"startTime":1002.491,"endTime":1003.451,"body":"There are some exceptions."},{"startTime":1003.751,"endTime":1008.641,"body":"In this particular context, a"},{"startTime":1003.751,"endTime":1008.641,"body":"scrum master is really acting more"},{"startTime":1009.031,"endTime":1012.201,"body":"as a mentor rather than a coach."},{"startTime":1012.231,"endTime":1014.061,"body":"I'm gonna share my experience with you."},{"startTime":1014.391,"endTime":1015.861,"body":"This is, this is good practice."},{"startTime":1015.861,"endTime":1017.331,"body":"This is how you, we"},{"startTime":1015.861,"endTime":1017.331,"body":"should be doing things."},{"startTime":1017.331,"endTime":1017.391,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1017.891,"endTime":1021.701,"body":"But by engaging with the"},{"startTime":1017.891,"endTime":1021.701,"body":"conversation, by being willing"},{"startTime":1021.701,"endTime":1023.811,"body":"to help them with these things."},{"startTime":1023.811,"endTime":1027.291,"body":"Willing to train them,"},{"startTime":1023.811,"endTime":1027.291,"body":"willing to set processes up."},{"startTime":1027.321,"endTime":1027.681,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1027.78,"endTime":1029.28,"body":"Tools, things like that."},{"startTime":1029.559,"endTime":1032.619,"body":"O overall, nebulously,"},{"startTime":1029.559,"endTime":1032.619,"body":"I'd call that coaching."},{"startTime":1032.919,"endTime":1033.189,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1033.477,"endTime":1035.607,"body":"There's a better word for it necessarily."},{"startTime":1036.027,"endTime":1038.757,"body":"And agile coach may come in"},{"startTime":1036.027,"endTime":1038.757,"body":"and, and really kind of take"},{"startTime":1038.757,"endTime":1039.94,"body":"that to a different level."},{"startTime":1039.998,"endTime":1043.898,"body":"It talked to the organization about what"},{"startTime":1039.998,"endTime":1043.898,"body":"are some of the real business pain points?"},{"startTime":1043.898,"endTime":1045.188,"body":"What are the customers looking for?"},{"startTime":1045.188,"endTime":1046.928,"body":"Why are they not being successful?"},{"startTime":1047.225,"endTime":1049.895,"body":"That's at a different level"},{"startTime":1047.225,"endTime":1049.895,"body":"than perhaps a scrum master."},{"startTime":1049.895,"endTime":1050.135,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1050.375,"endTime":1053.225,"body":"But you know, oftentimes Scrum Masters"},{"startTime":1050.375,"endTime":1053.225,"body":"get confused with this term and"},{"startTime":1053.225,"endTime":1054.425,"body":"they say, Well, I'm not the coach."},{"startTime":1054.455,"endTime":1055.475,"body":"I'm the Scrum masters."},{"startTime":1055.475,"endTime":1057.185,"body":"Like, No, you are also a coach."},{"startTime":1057.685,"endTime":1059.605,"body":"Unfortunately, there isn't"},{"startTime":1057.685,"endTime":1059.605,"body":"a better term for it."},{"startTime":1059.875,"endTime":1060.295,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1060.295,"endTime":1064.2,"body":"Well, I have the quote going back to"},{"startTime":1060.295,"endTime":1064.2,"body":"wherever the podcast that Fred was"},{"startTime":1064.2,"endTime":1068.24,"body":"on in one of the early podcasts where"},{"startTime":1064.2,"endTime":1068.24,"body":"I'm like, every, every scrum master"},{"startTime":1068.24,"endTime":1072.42,"body":"is an agile coach, but not every agile"},{"startTime":1068.24,"endTime":1072.42,"body":"coach necessarily is a Scrum master."},{"startTime":1072.48,"endTime":1072.9,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":1073.26,"endTime":1073.83,"body":"A hundred percent."},{"startTime":1073.83,"endTime":1074.76,"body":"You hit a great point."},{"startTime":1074.76,"endTime":1075.39,"body":"That's not in here."},{"startTime":1075.42,"endTime":1078.48,"body":"Mentoring's, not in, doesn't, the word"},{"startTime":1075.42,"endTime":1078.48,"body":"doesn't appear in here at all, which is"},{"startTime":1078.63,"endTime":1083.52,"body":"that the activity of mentoring is much"},{"startTime":1078.63,"endTime":1083.52,"body":"different than the activity of coaching."},{"startTime":1083.805,"endTime":1086.475,"body":"And, and I would argue the"},{"startTime":1083.805,"endTime":1086.475,"body":"skillset is like, this is not"},{"startTime":1086.475,"endTime":1087.735,"body":"the, this is not the podcast."},{"startTime":1087.735,"endTime":1088.965,"body":"Maybe that's a different podcast."},{"startTime":1088.97,"endTime":1089.955,"body":"Coaching versus mentoring."},{"startTime":1089.955,"endTime":1090.765,"body":"Maybe that's different podcast."},{"startTime":1090.765,"endTime":1090.855,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1091.005,"endTime":1092.295,"body":"Like they're in different quadrants."},{"startTime":1092.475,"endTime":1092.655,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1092.655,"endTime":1096.615,"body":"You know, Cause one of them is, is trying"},{"startTime":1092.655,"endTime":1096.615,"body":"to get you to come to the realization"},{"startTime":1096.615,"endTime":1101.095,"body":"and the other one is, I, I want you"},{"startTime":1096.615,"endTime":1101.095,"body":"to do this and then see from it."},{"startTime":1101.095,"endTime":1102.475,"body":"So based on your own experience."},{"startTime":1102.475,"endTime":1102.685,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1102.985,"endTime":1103.465,"body":"Totally different."},{"startTime":1103.465,"endTime":1105.715,"body":"It's an asking, asking"},{"startTime":1103.465,"endTime":1105.715,"body":"versus telling thing."},{"startTime":1105.715,"endTime":1108.085,"body":"You know, it's a, They"},{"startTime":1105.715,"endTime":1108.085,"body":"are different in my mind."},{"startTime":1108.585,"endTime":1108.795,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1108.795,"endTime":1111.825,"body":"One's really make asking the right"},{"startTime":1108.795,"endTime":1111.825,"body":"questions to make sure that they."},{"startTime":1112.325,"endTime":1115.895,"body":"The person being coached arise"},{"startTime":1112.325,"endTime":1115.895,"body":"at a conclusion by themselves."},{"startTime":1115.925,"endTime":1116.165,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1116.665,"endTime":1118.285,"body":"And not knowing the answer."},{"startTime":1118.285,"endTime":1119.815,"body":"And not leading the answer."},{"startTime":1119.815,"endTime":1120.115,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1120.155,"endTime":1120.275,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1120.355,"endTime":1122.425,"body":"And the other one is saying,"},{"startTime":1120.355,"endTime":1122.425,"body":"Well, I know this problem."},{"startTime":1122.665,"endTime":1123.595,"body":"I've seen it before."},{"startTime":1123.625,"endTime":1124.395,"body":"This is the conclusion."},{"startTime":1124.395,"endTime":1124.675,"body":"Do this."},{"startTime":1124.825,"endTime":1124.915,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1124.915,"endTime":1125.245,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1125.245,"endTime":1125.875,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1125.88,"endTime":1126.195,"body":"Yeah, yeah,"},{"startTime":1126.381,"endTime":1129.741,"body":"who does this when there's no"},{"startTime":1126.381,"endTime":1129.741,"body":"scrum master or, or agile coaches."},{"startTime":1130.035,"endTime":1131.085,"body":"So that's a great point."},{"startTime":1131.585,"endTime":1135.395,"body":"In lieu of not having a Scrum master"},{"startTime":1131.585,"endTime":1135.395,"body":"Agile coach, what do you have?"},{"startTime":1135.895,"endTime":1140.925,"body":"You know, who are these people that"},{"startTime":1135.895,"endTime":1140.925,"body":"are in those slots or different slots?"},{"startTime":1140.925,"endTime":1142.995,"body":"Team leads, dead leads managers."},{"startTime":1142.995,"endTime":1145.005,"body":"So what do you do when"},{"startTime":1142.995,"endTime":1145.005,"body":"you don't have them?"},{"startTime":1145.485,"endTime":1151.385,"body":"You pray a lot, but these people that"},{"startTime":1145.485,"endTime":1151.385,"body":"aren't necessarily in agile centric"},{"startTime":1151.385,"endTime":1154.793,"body":"roles, I'll say cuz these people"},{"startTime":1151.385,"endTime":1154.793,"body":"necessarily aren't, some are mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1155.218,"endTime":1155.543,"body":", very few."},{"startTime":1155.693,"endTime":1158.325,"body":"They may have worked in an"},{"startTime":1155.693,"endTime":1158.325,"body":"agile centric role elsewhere."},{"startTime":1158.325,"endTime":1162.476,"body":"So when you have that, typically"},{"startTime":1158.325,"endTime":1162.476,"body":"what happens is you find."},{"startTime":1162.732,"endTime":1165.612,"body":"that there's someone, whether"},{"startTime":1162.732,"endTime":1165.612,"body":"it's a ba, it could be a ba,"},{"startTime":1165.612,"endTime":1166.632,"body":"it could even be a developer."},{"startTime":1166.632,"endTime":1167.172,"body":"It doesn't matter."},{"startTime":1167.672,"endTime":1172.362,"body":"Somebody says, Hey, I know this way that"},{"startTime":1167.672,"endTime":1172.362,"body":"we're working is not all that great."},{"startTime":1172.422,"endTime":1172.602,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1172.602,"endTime":1174.162,"body":"I've worked in a different way before."},{"startTime":1174.162,"endTime":1175.302,"body":"Why don't we try this?"},{"startTime":1175.307,"endTime":1175.452,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1175.952,"endTime":1177.422,"body":"That's the person we need to tap."},{"startTime":1177.482,"endTime":1180.733,"body":"Oh man, is this, why all the people"},{"startTime":1177.482,"endTime":1180.733,"body":"on the T internet or on LinkedIn or"},{"startTime":1180.733,"endTime":1184.323,"body":"whatever, or crying about all the terror"},{"startTime":1180.733,"endTime":1184.323,"body":"and horror stories about scrum adoption,"},{"startTime":1184.323,"endTime":1188.553,"body":"because they, whoever was in like, it"},{"startTime":1184.323,"endTime":1188.553,"body":"clearly says leading training and coaching"},{"startTime":1188.553,"endTime":1189.693,"body":"the organization in scrum adoption."},{"startTime":1189.693,"endTime":1193.6,"body":"So if you have some director of"},{"startTime":1189.693,"endTime":1193.6,"body":"development or lead developer or whatever,"},{"startTime":1193.6,"endTime":1198.16,"body":"who's teaching them how to adopt Scrum"},{"startTime":1193.6,"endTime":1198.16,"body":"because they're the scrum master, but"},{"startTime":1198.16,"endTime":1199.6,"body":"they're just teaching them all wrong."},{"startTime":1200.02,"endTime":1200.26,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1200.62,"endTime":1203.68,"body":"Or if it's a manager or"},{"startTime":1200.62,"endTime":1203.68,"body":"a project manager, or."},{"startTime":1203.983,"endTime":1208.423,"body":"And they're putting their like, Hey,"},{"startTime":1203.983,"endTime":1208.423,"body":"you guys can be self organizing and do"},{"startTime":1208.423,"endTime":1210.753,"body":"Scrum, except I need tell you what to do."},{"startTime":1210.753,"endTime":1212.173,"body":"I need to be able to tell you what to do."},{"startTime":1212.173,"endTime":1215.443,"body":"And yeah, you need to give dates for"},{"startTime":1212.173,"endTime":1215.443,"body":"things that you've never done before."},{"startTime":1215.448,"endTime":1218.593,"body":"And like, is that, is that why"},{"startTime":1215.448,"endTime":1218.593,"body":"everyone's had bad experiences?"},{"startTime":1218.593,"endTime":1221.877,"body":"Because this bullet point"},{"startTime":1218.593,"endTime":1221.877,"body":"is kind of being perverted."},{"startTime":1221.907,"endTime":1223.017,"body":"I was gonna say co-opted."},{"startTime":1223.017,"endTime":1224.937,"body":"No, Perverted is a"},{"startTime":1223.017,"endTime":1224.937,"body":"better, Yeah, perverted."},{"startTime":1225.205,"endTime":1227.035,"body":"I was trying not to use the"},{"startTime":1225.205,"endTime":1227.035,"body":"word perverted, but it, it"},{"startTime":1227.035,"endTime":1228.385,"body":"actually is a really great point."},{"startTime":1228.385,"endTime":1228.835,"body":"It belongs here."},{"startTime":1229.015,"endTime":1229.855,"body":"I think you're right."},{"startTime":1229.86,"endTime":1230.905,"body":"That's exactly the thing."},{"startTime":1230.905,"endTime":1234.766,"body":"These are the people that say, you"},{"startTime":1230.905,"endTime":1234.766,"body":"know well we we're doing Scrum."},{"startTime":1234.796,"endTime":1237.076,"body":"They'll say that they'll"},{"startTime":1234.796,"endTime":1237.076,"body":"use these terms, right?"},{"startTime":1237.081,"endTime":1238.486,"body":"But they're not really doing Scrum."},{"startTime":1238.491,"endTime":1238.726,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1238.811,"endTime":1242.284,"body":". They'll say, Well, okay, Mary"},{"startTime":1238.811,"endTime":1242.284,"body":"I'm gonna assign you this task"},{"startTime":1242.314,"endTime":1243.904,"body":"or this user story or whatever."},{"startTime":1243.948,"endTime":1246.108,"body":"Fred, you're gonna, you own this one."},{"startTime":1246.228,"endTime":1246.408,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1246.798,"endTime":1249.731,"body":"They're taking the work to the people."},{"startTime":1250.211,"endTime":1250.601,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1250.961,"endTime":1252.701,"body":"And that is absolutely not what you do."},{"startTime":1253.001,"endTime":1257.501,"body":"When you are really truly working Na"},{"startTime":1253.001,"endTime":1257.501,"body":"agile, you bring the people to the work."},{"startTime":1257.591,"endTime":1257.861,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1257.921,"endTime":1261.071,"body":"And that concept is"},{"startTime":1257.921,"endTime":1261.071,"body":"completely lost at that level."},{"startTime":1261.076,"endTime":1263.891,"body":"When you don't have a scrum master"},{"startTime":1261.076,"endTime":1263.891,"body":"or agile coach, these people"},{"startTime":1263.891,"endTime":1267.491,"body":"are used to being in that cnc,"},{"startTime":1263.891,"endTime":1267.491,"body":"the command control environment."},{"startTime":1267.496,"endTime":1267.561,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1267.921,"endTime":1273.157,"body":"So it tends to be often technical"},{"startTime":1267.921,"endTime":1273.157,"body":"people like tech leads, as you said,"},{"startTime":1273.157,"endTime":1278.167,"body":"technical people like tech leads or"},{"startTime":1273.157,"endTime":1278.167,"body":"architects or development managers."},{"startTime":1278.257,"endTime":1278.437,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1278.442,"endTime":1280.297,"body":"They'll say, Do this,"},{"startTime":1278.442,"endTime":1280.297,"body":"I need a project plan."},{"startTime":1280.297,"endTime":1282.337,"body":"You're doing this, you're doing"},{"startTime":1280.297,"endTime":1282.337,"body":"this, I need, you're gonna"},{"startTime":1282.337,"endTime":1283.747,"body":"get this done by this date."},{"startTime":1283.837,"endTime":1284.047,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1284.547,"endTime":1288.297,"body":"Now any semblance of just went out"},{"startTime":1284.547,"endTime":1288.297,"body":"the window, but that's what they do."},{"startTime":1288.357,"endTime":1288.687,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1288.692,"endTime":1288.767,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1288.967,"endTime":1292.207,"body":"I think we're, we've already crossed"},{"startTime":1288.967,"endTime":1292.207,"body":"into the second bullet point, which"},{"startTime":1292.207,"endTime":1297.187,"body":"is planning and advising Scrum"},{"startTime":1292.207,"endTime":1297.187,"body":"implementations within the organization."},{"startTime":1297.397,"endTime":1300.127,"body":"I would expect this is gonna be like"},{"startTime":1297.397,"endTime":1300.127,"body":"our quickest bullet point in here."},{"startTime":1300.127,"endTime":1303.277,"body":"I think so, but planning and"},{"startTime":1300.127,"endTime":1303.277,"body":"advising Scrum implementations"},{"startTime":1303.727,"endTime":1305.197,"body":"within the organization."},{"startTime":1305.197,"endTime":1308.967,"body":"This is probably the toughest part"},{"startTime":1305.197,"endTime":1308.967,"body":"that I see when I go to organizations"},{"startTime":1308.967,"endTime":1313.527,"body":"is they delegate this to somebody"},{"startTime":1308.967,"endTime":1313.527,"body":"who's in management, but then"},{"startTime":1313.527,"endTime":1314.727,"body":"they also have a scrum master."},{"startTime":1315.147,"endTime":1320.117,"body":"And I'm all, I'm in the position to"},{"startTime":1315.147,"endTime":1320.117,"body":"say, You have a scrum master in house."},{"startTime":1320.267,"endTime":1321.647,"body":"You're paying for a scrum master in house."},{"startTime":1321.827,"endTime":1327.637,"body":"Why don't you delegate to the person"},{"startTime":1321.827,"endTime":1327.637,"body":"who their whole role is, go out and"},{"startTime":1327.637,"endTime":1331.597,"body":"bring in expertise and to figure out"},{"startTime":1327.637,"endTime":1331.597,"body":"new challenges and talk to people"},{"startTime":1331.597,"endTime":1332.707,"body":"in their network to figure out"},{"startTime":1332.957,"endTime":1335.327,"body":"because assuming that"},{"startTime":1332.957,"endTime":1335.327,"body":"every implementation of."},{"startTime":1335.827,"endTime":1339.517,"body":"Has to be somehow customized"},{"startTime":1335.827,"endTime":1339.517,"body":"to fit in your organization."},{"startTime":1339.697,"endTime":1339.937,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1339.937,"endTime":1344.207,"body":"Even though the Scrum trainers are the,"},{"startTime":1339.937,"endTime":1344.207,"body":"the, the Scrum trainer, Well, the normal"},{"startTime":1344.207,"endTime":1348.127,"body":"scrum trainers, not, not the babies that"},{"startTime":1344.207,"endTime":1348.127,"body":"we deal with, but the, the, the, the real"},{"startTime":1348.127,"endTime":1350.707,"body":"Scrum trainers that are out there, they'll"},{"startTime":1348.127,"endTime":1350.707,"body":"probably be like, Well just implement"},{"startTime":1350.707,"endTime":1352.447,"body":"Scrum, ah, how it is out of the book."},{"startTime":1352.537,"endTime":1353.377,"body":"You don't have to deal with this."},{"startTime":1353.587,"endTime":1356.887,"body":"But a lot of people don't"},{"startTime":1353.587,"endTime":1356.887,"body":"implement it right out of the book."},{"startTime":1357.387,"endTime":1361.437,"body":"I'm wondering if it's because they"},{"startTime":1357.387,"endTime":1361.437,"body":"are not going to their in-house"},{"startTime":1361.437,"endTime":1366.287,"body":"expert for this bullet point where it"},{"startTime":1361.437,"endTime":1366.287,"body":"says, your job is to plan and advise"},{"startTime":1366.287,"endTime":1369.437,"body":"Scrum implementation throughout the"},{"startTime":1366.287,"endTime":1369.437,"body":"organization, within the organization that"},{"startTime":1369.437,"endTime":1371.597,"body":"says, I think it's both things, right?"},{"startTime":1371.597,"endTime":1372.887,"body":"So you're right about that one."},{"startTime":1372.954,"endTime":1377.944,"body":"You know, I think a lot of organizations,"},{"startTime":1372.954,"endTime":1377.944,"body":"will have their in-house management"},{"startTime":1377.944,"endTime":1382.294,"body":"people to lead this effort, even"},{"startTime":1377.944,"endTime":1382.294,"body":"though they have a scrum master there."},{"startTime":1382.384,"endTime":1382.654,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1382.804,"endTime":1385.204,"body":"And there's usually a"},{"startTime":1382.804,"endTime":1385.204,"body":"sense of hierarchy there."},{"startTime":1385.534,"endTime":1387.844,"body":"You know, the manager is"},{"startTime":1385.534,"endTime":1387.844,"body":"above the Scrum masters."},{"startTime":1387.844,"endTime":1390.934,"body":"They're gonna say, I've seen"},{"startTime":1387.844,"endTime":1390.934,"body":"a video or two on YouTube."},{"startTime":1390.934,"endTime":1392.254,"body":"I know how Scrum works."},{"startTime":1392.554,"endTime":1392.794,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1392.794,"endTime":1394.744,"body":"You're gonna do this,"},{"startTime":1392.794,"endTime":1394.744,"body":"by the way, not ours."},{"startTime":1394.744,"endTime":1395.044,"body":"Not ours."},{"startTime":1395.424,"endTime":1396.484,"body":"Where, where's your Gantt chart."},{"startTime":1396.514,"endTime":1396.664,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1396.664,"endTime":1399.394,"body":"Where you can't, These, the"},{"startTime":1396.664,"endTime":1399.394,"body":"people that, So this, this happens"},{"startTime":1399.424,"endTime":1402.124,"body":"way, way too often out there."},{"startTime":1402.184,"endTime":1402.274,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1402.754,"endTime":1406.864,"body":", the flip side of that is I've seen"},{"startTime":1402.754,"endTime":1406.864,"body":"very few Scrum masters that stand"},{"startTime":1406.864,"endTime":1409.284,"body":"up and say, That's not quite right."},{"startTime":1409.674,"endTime":1410.814,"body":"This is how we should try it."},{"startTime":1410.814,"endTime":1410.874,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1411.084,"endTime":1412.584,"body":"This is how we should do things."},{"startTime":1412.914,"endTime":1414.234,"body":"So I think it's both sides here."},{"startTime":1414.234,"endTime":1417.504,"body":"Planning and advising and the"},{"startTime":1414.234,"endTime":1417.504,"body":"Scrum implementation boils down to"},{"startTime":1417.984,"endTime":1420.084,"body":"looking at the situation at hand."},{"startTime":1420.114,"endTime":1423.404,"body":"Typically, it's the easiest"},{"startTime":1420.114,"endTime":1423.404,"body":"when it's familiar territory,"},{"startTime":1423.404,"endTime":1425.114,"body":"like a development work stream."},{"startTime":1425.114,"endTime":1425.384,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1425.384,"endTime":1427.814,"body":"It's because you, that's what you're"},{"startTime":1425.384,"endTime":1427.814,"body":"working on more often than not."},{"startTime":1427.894,"endTime":1432.004,"body":"so advising others, there may"},{"startTime":1427.894,"endTime":1432.004,"body":"not be another scrum master there"},{"startTime":1432.304,"endTime":1434.494,"body":"advising them how to implement Scrum."},{"startTime":1434.584,"endTime":1434.704,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1434.714,"endTime":1435.844,"body":"Is, is the next step."},{"startTime":1435.844,"endTime":1436.954,"body":"That's the easiest step."},{"startTime":1437.434,"endTime":1440.104,"body":"Then you look beyond that and"},{"startTime":1437.434,"endTime":1440.104,"body":"say, Well, Scrum maybe is not"},{"startTime":1440.104,"endTime":1441.514,"body":"even the right way to work here."},{"startTime":1441.889,"endTime":1442.789,"body":"Maybe it's some other way."},{"startTime":1442.789,"endTime":1443.629,"body":"Let's figure that out."},{"startTime":1443.809,"endTime":1444.079,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1444.259,"endTime":1448.819,"body":"You know, that, that requires a scrum"},{"startTime":1444.259,"endTime":1448.819,"body":"master to step outside their comfort"},{"startTime":1448.819,"endTime":1452.839,"body":"zone and say, I can talk to hr, I can"},{"startTime":1448.819,"endTime":1452.839,"body":"talk to finance, I can talk to legal."},{"startTime":1452.899,"endTime":1453.079,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1453.169,"endTime":1455.749,"body":"That, that is not all that common either."},{"startTime":1455.779,"endTime":1455.929,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1456.049,"endTime":1460.689,"body":"Scrum Masters are inwardly focused"},{"startTime":1456.049,"endTime":1460.689,"body":"to their team or teams typically."},{"startTime":1460.749,"endTime":1463.638,"body":"You know, the other thing that that"},{"startTime":1460.749,"endTime":1463.638,"body":"I've seen ScrumMasters run into a"},{"startTime":1463.638,"endTime":1468.175,"body":"problem with in this category is"},{"startTime":1463.638,"endTime":1468.175,"body":"since they are sort of representing"},{"startTime":1468.175,"endTime":1473.598,"body":"this, this category of leadership that"},{"startTime":1468.175,"endTime":1473.598,"body":"doesn't have like leadership, but not"},{"startTime":1473.598,"endTime":1477.408,"body":"in the way that is like supervisory"},{"startTime":1473.598,"endTime":1477.408,"body":"leadership, like organizational"},{"startTime":1477.408,"endTime":1479.388,"body":"leadership, like process leadership."},{"startTime":1479.388,"endTime":1479.778,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1479.988,"endTime":1480.108,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1480.174,"endTime":1484.264,"body":"Since they're in this, this, this, Role"},{"startTime":1480.174,"endTime":1484.264,"body":"that the organization doesn't really know"},{"startTime":1484.264,"endTime":1489.124,"body":"what to do with the organization will say"},{"startTime":1484.264,"endTime":1489.124,"body":"like some VP or something, whoever their"},{"startTime":1489.124,"endTime":1493.774,"body":"hiring manager is will say, Oh, I just"},{"startTime":1489.124,"endTime":1493.774,"body":"came out of a meeting with the executives"},{"startTime":1493.864,"endTime":1496.234,"body":"and they want to know everyone's KPIs."},{"startTime":1496.234,"endTime":1500.114,"body":"They want to know everything to put on"},{"startTime":1496.234,"endTime":1500.114,"body":"the annual performance review, where"},{"startTime":1500.284,"endTime":1505.024,"body":"we look at what you did once per year"},{"startTime":1500.284,"endTime":1505.024,"body":"and say, How can we be improving?"},{"startTime":1505.024,"endTime":1508.474,"body":"Cuz that's how their organization"},{"startTime":1505.024,"endTime":1508.474,"body":"thinks that they do things or whatever."},{"startTime":1508.594,"endTime":1510.024,"body":"Hey thinks that they improve or whatever."},{"startTime":1510.263,"endTime":1514.791,"body":"But regard like regardless of  beating"},{"startTime":1510.263,"endTime":1514.791,"body":"that door down again many, many times"},{"startTime":1514.791,"endTime":1518.79,"body":"that we've them for Scrum masters"},{"startTime":1514.791,"endTime":1518.79,"body":"will struggle with well, I don't know"},{"startTime":1518.795,"endTime":1520.8,"body":"what metrics to provide to leadership."},{"startTime":1521.07,"endTime":1524.22,"body":"So leadership like this is where the"},{"startTime":1521.07,"endTime":1524.22,"body":"question that you might hear from"},{"startTime":1524.22,"endTime":1528.24,"body":"Scrum Masters of like leadership is"},{"startTime":1524.22,"endTime":1528.24,"body":"asking for my velocity per team to"},{"startTime":1528.24,"endTime":1530.49,"body":"measure us on because the scrum master."},{"startTime":1530.99,"endTime":1536.69,"body":"Either doesn't know what better metrics"},{"startTime":1530.99,"endTime":1536.69,"body":"to pose to their leaders when they ask"},{"startTime":1536.69,"endTime":1539.75,"body":"for some way to measure your performance."},{"startTime":1539.93,"endTime":1542.51,"body":"And the organization literally"},{"startTime":1539.93,"endTime":1542.51,"body":"has no, they don't understand."},{"startTime":1542.66,"endTime":1542.93,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1543.17,"endTime":1547.796,"body":"Or they're not coaching the organization"},{"startTime":1543.17,"endTime":1547.796,"body":"to say this is the way you should"},{"startTime":1547.801,"endTime":1549.309,"body":"be measuring my effectiveness."},{"startTime":1549.559,"endTime":1549.979,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1550.129,"endTime":1553.632,"body":"we started talking about planning"},{"startTime":1550.129,"endTime":1553.632,"body":"and advising Scrum implementation"},{"startTime":1553.637,"endTime":1554.592,"body":"within the organization."},{"startTime":1554.772,"endTime":1557.052,"body":"We started that from a perspective"},{"startTime":1554.772,"endTime":1557.052,"body":"of who does it when there's no"},{"startTime":1557.052,"endTime":1559.842,"body":"scrum master, we talking about"},{"startTime":1557.052,"endTime":1559.842,"body":"leadership or dev leads or Right."},{"startTime":1560.082,"endTime":1562.28,"body":"Different different people"},{"startTime":1560.082,"endTime":1562.28,"body":"in the organization."},{"startTime":1562.58,"endTime":1567.784,"body":"And, and we talked about a whole bunch of"},{"startTime":1562.58,"endTime":1567.784,"body":"examples, but who, who, like when you're"},{"startTime":1567.784,"endTime":1569.572,"body":"planning and advising Scrum implement."},{"startTime":1569.822,"endTime":1573.311,"body":"There's going to be I think almost"},{"startTime":1569.822,"endTime":1573.311,"body":"every single organization I've been at,"},{"startTime":1573.311,"endTime":1576.041,"body":"there's gonna be someone in leadership"},{"startTime":1573.311,"endTime":1576.041,"body":"that says, Well, how do we know that"},{"startTime":1576.041,"endTime":1578.441,"body":"this Scrum implementation is successful?"},{"startTime":1578.771,"endTime":1582.477,"body":"They're gonna ask that question, and then"},{"startTime":1578.771,"endTime":1582.477,"body":"you have to bring some kind of probably"},{"startTime":1582.477,"endTime":1584.757,"body":"quantitative metric, like not qualitative."},{"startTime":1584.757,"endTime":1586.947,"body":"I give you qualitative metrics, all that."},{"startTime":1586.947,"endTime":1591.167,"body":"I'll give you surveys, I give you all"},{"startTime":1586.947,"endTime":1591.167,"body":"kinds of stuff, but quantitative metrics"},{"startTime":1591.24,"endTime":1592.71,"body":"are gonna come up in this category."},{"startTime":1592.72,"endTime":1596.447,"body":"For anyone who's listening to this that"},{"startTime":1592.72,"endTime":1596.447,"body":"made it this far both of you that made"},{"startTime":1596.447,"endTime":1600.28,"body":"it this far you're gonna say, Hey, gimme"},{"startTime":1596.447,"endTime":1600.28,"body":"something to actually take back to my"},{"startTime":1600.28,"endTime":1605.83,"body":"job and use, Well, what metrics can they"},{"startTime":1600.28,"endTime":1605.83,"body":"actually take back to their job and try"},{"startTime":1605.835,"endTime":1611.336,"body":"to use to say, Hey, our implementation of"},{"startTime":1605.835,"endTime":1611.336,"body":"Scrum is going well because I can prove."},{"startTime":1611.586,"endTime":1611.796,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1611.796,"endTime":1613.686,"body":"So first I wanna say"},{"startTime":1611.796,"endTime":1613.686,"body":"you're absolutely right."},{"startTime":1613.686,"endTime":1615.546,"body":"It has to be quantitative, right?"},{"startTime":1615.966,"endTime":1619.266,"body":"You can't just say, I feel it's"},{"startTime":1615.966,"endTime":1619.266,"body":"going well, that doesn't work, right?"},{"startTime":1619.566,"endTime":1621.426,"body":"It, you need to be able to show it."},{"startTime":1621.486,"endTime":1624.606,"body":"You need to be able to, It might"},{"startTime":1621.486,"endTime":1624.606,"body":"work for a while initially, maybe"},{"startTime":1624.606,"endTime":1627.996,"body":"for sprint or two sprints, You can"},{"startTime":1624.606,"endTime":1627.996,"body":"hide behind this thing called the"},{"startTime":1627.996,"endTime":1629.976,"body":"sprint zero, which isn't a real thing."},{"startTime":1630.216,"endTime":1631.416,"body":"But anyway, Yeah."},{"startTime":1631.626,"endTime":1632.316,"body":"Long term."},{"startTime":1632.346,"endTime":1632.616,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1632.646,"endTime":1633.936,"body":"Or, or over and over again."},{"startTime":1634.176,"endTime":1636.906,"body":"Really every sprint or you know,"},{"startTime":1634.176,"endTime":1636.906,"body":"every couple of sprints, you need to"},{"startTime":1636.906,"endTime":1641.006,"body":"be able to go back to the leadership"},{"startTime":1636.906,"endTime":1641.006,"body":"and say, Here's how we're performing."},{"startTime":1641.216,"endTime":1641.426,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1641.516,"endTime":1644.836,"body":"And there gut feels"},{"startTime":1641.516,"endTime":1644.836,"body":"aren't sufficient, right?"},{"startTime":1644.836,"endTime":1646.276,"body":"So it has to be quantitated, right?"},{"startTime":1646.606,"endTime":1650.406,"body":"This is where things get tricky"},{"startTime":1646.606,"endTime":1650.406,"body":"because more of than not Scrum"},{"startTime":1650.406,"endTime":1652.376,"body":"Masters, and it's a two way street."},{"startTime":1652.376,"endTime":1655.916,"body":"Scrum Masters just say, Well, all I have"},{"startTime":1652.376,"endTime":1655.916,"body":"is velocity, so I'm gonna offer that up."},{"startTime":1656.416,"endTime":1659.436,"body":"Leadership will say,"},{"startTime":1656.416,"endTime":1659.436,"body":"We know about velocity."},{"startTime":1659.936,"endTime":1660.926,"body":"What are you delivering?"},{"startTime":1660.986,"endTime":1663.506,"body":"You know, how, how, What's"},{"startTime":1660.986,"endTime":1663.506,"body":"the rate of delivery?"},{"startTime":1663.536,"endTime":1663.656,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1663.896,"endTime":1664.946,"body":"And they measure that."},{"startTime":1665.446,"endTime":1667.936,"body":". It's okay in principle to share that."},{"startTime":1667.996,"endTime":1668.686,"body":"That's fine."},{"startTime":1668.716,"endTime":1669.376,"body":"It's a measure."},{"startTime":1669.381,"endTime":1673.186,"body":"It's like, it's like saying, well,"},{"startTime":1669.381,"endTime":1673.186,"body":"right now, at this point in time,"},{"startTime":1673.186,"endTime":1675.536,"body":"I'm driving a vehicle down I4."},{"startTime":1675.796,"endTime":1676.726,"body":"That's not a good example."},{"startTime":1676.726,"endTime":1678.016,"body":"I four is chock a block right now."},{"startTime":1678.016,"endTime":1682.493,"body":"Friday . Anyway, I let's I"},{"startTime":1678.016,"endTime":1682.493,"body":"75 going way north from here."},{"startTime":1682.853,"endTime":1683.183,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1683.183,"endTime":1685.823,"body":"And I'm doing 65 miles an hour, let's say."},{"startTime":1685.913,"endTime":1687.833,"body":"Cause I'm a law abiding person."},{"startTime":1688.103,"endTime":1688.403,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":1688.403,"endTime":1692.868,"body":"So 65 and then an hour"},{"startTime":1688.403,"endTime":1692.868,"body":"later I'm still doing 65."},{"startTime":1693.368,"endTime":1694.298,"body":"Those are hard numbers."},{"startTime":1694.298,"endTime":1694.928,"body":"65."},{"startTime":1694.928,"endTime":1695.528,"body":"65."},{"startTime":1695.588,"endTime":1695.708,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":1695.888,"endTime":1696.818,"body":"That's okay."},{"startTime":1696.823,"endTime":1700.618,"body":"However, if somebody says to you,"},{"startTime":1696.823,"endTime":1700.618,"body":"Well, you're only doing 65, you're"},{"startTime":1700.618,"endTime":1703.638,"body":"doing 65 an hour ago, two hours ago."},{"startTime":1703.698,"endTime":1703.908,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1704.328,"endTime":1705.378,"body":"You gotta get to Georgia."},{"startTime":1705.588,"endTime":1706.518,"body":"Forget God's sake."},{"startTime":1706.518,"endTime":1706.818,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1707.148,"endTime":1708.678,"body":"Get up to 80, get up to 90."},{"startTime":1708.678,"endTime":1709.158,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1709.243,"endTime":1711.228,"body":". That is what happens in real life."},{"startTime":1711.258,"endTime":1713.598,"body":"So these things get weaponized."},{"startTime":1714.063,"endTime":1717.633,"body":"And this is where we need to think"},{"startTime":1714.063,"endTime":1717.633,"body":"about this and say, what, Why"},{"startTime":1717.633,"endTime":1719.493,"body":"are they even asking for this?"},{"startTime":1719.853,"endTime":1720.903,"body":"So let's step back a bit."},{"startTime":1721.403,"endTime":1725.233,"body":"A savvy scrum master would"},{"startTime":1721.403,"endTime":1725.233,"body":"say, What are you looking for?"},{"startTime":1725.323,"endTime":1725.503,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1725.503,"endTime":1728.503,"body":"And they say, Well, we're looking to"},{"startTime":1725.503,"endTime":1728.503,"body":"see how well your teams are performing."},{"startTime":1728.563,"endTime":1731.183,"body":"Let's say, Okay, that's fine."},{"startTime":1731.683,"endTime":1732.913,"body":"Let's put that aside for a bit."},{"startTime":1733.003,"endTime":1735.673,"body":"Sometimes they say, Well,"},{"startTime":1733.003,"endTime":1735.673,"body":"we're in a transformation."},{"startTime":1735.943,"endTime":1738.013,"body":"We need to know how the"},{"startTime":1735.943,"endTime":1738.013,"body":"transformation's going."},{"startTime":1738.513,"endTime":1740.523,"body":"Those two things are not the same."},{"startTime":1740.528,"endTime":1740.903,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1741.033,"endTime":1741.423,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1741.783,"endTime":1744.663,"body":"How well are your teams performing"},{"startTime":1741.783,"endTime":1744.663,"body":"and how your transformations"},{"startTime":1744.668,"endTime":1746.253,"body":"going are chalk and cheese."},{"startTime":1746.313,"endTime":1746.403,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1746.648,"endTime":1747.843,"body":", they're totally different."},{"startTime":1747.843,"endTime":1750.003,"body":"And if you don't get that,"},{"startTime":1747.843,"endTime":1750.003,"body":"we'll do a podcast on it."},{"startTime":1750.003,"endTime":1753.153,"body":"Let us know, but we will because"},{"startTime":1750.003,"endTime":1753.153,"body":"they, they're not the same."},{"startTime":1753.153,"endTime":1755.133,"body":"And oftentimes they get"},{"startTime":1753.153,"endTime":1755.133,"body":"completely confused."},{"startTime":1755.343,"endTime":1757.773,"body":"So going back to the metrics Yes."},{"startTime":1757.893,"endTime":1760.503,"body":"Numbers, but what numbers Right."},{"startTime":1761.003,"endTime":1764.513,"body":"Well, the team can manufacture"},{"startTime":1761.003,"endTime":1764.513,"body":"numbers all day long."},{"startTime":1765.013,"endTime":1767.108,"body":"if they figure out what is being measured."},{"startTime":1767.138,"endTime":1768.938,"body":"So if velocity is a number."},{"startTime":1769.328,"endTime":1773.528,"body":"Well, they'll just estimate everything"},{"startTime":1769.328,"endTime":1773.528,"body":"higher and boom, increase the velocity."},{"startTime":1773.918,"endTime":1775.868,"body":"Is that really going to"},{"startTime":1773.918,"endTime":1775.868,"body":"make a difference though?"},{"startTime":1775.868,"endTime":1776.168,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1776.482,"endTime":1781.672,"body":"So you need something that is not"},{"startTime":1776.482,"endTime":1781.672,"body":"measured by the team and delivered by"},{"startTime":1781.672,"endTime":1783.582,"body":"the team, then what does that mean?"},{"startTime":1784.082,"endTime":1786.902,"body":"You go back to leadership and"},{"startTime":1784.082,"endTime":1786.902,"body":"say, What are you looking for"},{"startTime":1786.902,"endTime":1788.972,"body":"from us in the next two weeks?"},{"startTime":1789.472,"endTime":1790.132,"body":"Do they know?"},{"startTime":1790.632,"endTime":1794.352,"body":"If they don't know, then you"},{"startTime":1790.632,"endTime":1794.352,"body":"don't have a yard stick for which"},{"startTime":1794.352,"endTime":1797.822,"body":"to measure against, and if you"},{"startTime":1794.352,"endTime":1797.822,"body":"don't have that, all bets are off."},{"startTime":1798.322,"endTime":1802.102,"body":"Typically it works better depending on"},{"startTime":1798.322,"endTime":1802.102,"body":"the organization where leadership could"},{"startTime":1802.102,"endTime":1808.197,"body":"be you might be reporting into the,"},{"startTime":1802.102,"endTime":1808.197,"body":"like a PMO or a technology organization"},{"startTime":1808.197,"endTime":1811.987,"body":"as opposed to being independent"},{"startTime":1808.197,"endTime":1811.987,"body":"and And working for the business."},{"startTime":1812.017,"endTime":1812.197,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1812.697,"endTime":1815.907,"body":"If it's a technology organization,"},{"startTime":1812.697,"endTime":1815.907,"body":"then whatever measure you give them,"},{"startTime":1815.907,"endTime":1818.297,"body":"they're gonna always say, raise the bar."},{"startTime":1818.687,"endTime":1819.257,"body":"Jump higher."},{"startTime":1819.262,"endTime":1819.857,"body":"Jump higher."},{"startTime":1819.862,"endTime":1820.027,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1820.032,"endTime":1820.067,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1820.067,"endTime":1823.187,"body":"If it's the business organization, on"},{"startTime":1820.067,"endTime":1823.187,"body":"the other hand, if you train them and"},{"startTime":1823.187,"endTime":1826.952,"body":"coach them and say, You give us the"},{"startTime":1823.187,"endTime":1826.952,"body":"marching orders, what are you looking for?"},{"startTime":1826.982,"endTime":1827.132,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1827.252,"endTime":1829.802,"body":"What are the most important things"},{"startTime":1827.252,"endTime":1829.802,"body":"for you in the next two weeks?"},{"startTime":1830.302,"endTime":1830.662,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1831.022,"endTime":1835.972,"body":"And the team can look at that and"},{"startTime":1831.022,"endTime":1835.972,"body":"based on past history, understanding"},{"startTime":1835.977,"endTime":1839.722,"body":"of the new work, et cetera, they"},{"startTime":1835.977,"endTime":1839.722,"body":"say, Well we can do 80% of that."},{"startTime":1840.222,"endTime":1842.462,"body":"And  if we do 80% of"},{"startTime":1840.222,"endTime":1842.462,"body":"what you're asking for."},{"startTime":1842.642,"endTime":1844.022,"body":"Cuz we can only do 80%."},{"startTime":1844.522,"endTime":1846.322,"body":"That is really a hundred percent delivery."},{"startTime":1846.352,"endTime":1846.562,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1846.802,"endTime":1848.842,"body":", we are successful by any measure."},{"startTime":1848.902,"endTime":1849.112,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1849.612,"endTime":1855.012,"body":"So in reality that boils down to something"},{"startTime":1849.612,"endTime":1855.012,"body":"like business value, something like that."},{"startTime":1855.512,"endTime":1859.882,"body":"Once the team gets way mature"},{"startTime":1855.512,"endTime":1859.882,"body":"past that, it's not even the"},{"startTime":1860.032,"endTime":1862.462,"body":"business side of the house."},{"startTime":1862.642,"endTime":1864.202,"body":"It is really the consumers."},{"startTime":1864.212,"endTime":1865.462,"body":"The The customers."},{"startTime":1865.462,"endTime":1865.822,"body":"Customers."},{"startTime":1865.822,"endTime":1866.002,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1866.122,"endTime":1867.562,"body":"But that's the stretch, right?"},{"startTime":1867.567,"endTime":1868.642,"body":"That that's gonna happen later."},{"startTime":1868.672,"endTime":1869.842,"body":"Well I don't, I don't"},{"startTime":1868.672,"endTime":1869.842,"body":"think it is a stretch."},{"startTime":1869.852,"endTime":1874.272,"body":"what we're talking about still"},{"startTime":1869.852,"endTime":1874.272,"body":"ties in, it still bundled up"},{"startTime":1874.362,"endTime":1875.532,"body":"with the first bullet point."},{"startTime":1875.532,"endTime":1878.172,"body":"We talked about planning and"},{"startTime":1875.532,"endTime":1878.172,"body":"advising Scrum implementations."},{"startTime":1878.672,"endTime":1880.562,"body":"Like planning is straightforward."},{"startTime":1880.562,"endTime":1880.742,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1880.742,"endTime":1883.982,"body":"Your planning, if you, if you've been"},{"startTime":1880.742,"endTime":1883.982,"body":"doing this, if you went through your"},{"startTime":1883.982,"endTime":1888.802,"body":"classes and you stick to the book, you"},{"startTime":1883.982,"endTime":1888.802,"body":"can involve yourself in planning, right?"},{"startTime":1888.892,"endTime":1892.642,"body":"Every organization's a little bit"},{"startTime":1888.892,"endTime":1892.642,"body":"different, but the principles are there."},{"startTime":1892.732,"endTime":1894.622,"body":"You can apply it dealing with reality."},{"startTime":1894.652,"endTime":1894.862,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1894.867,"endTime":1898.462,"body":"Planning, advising, scrum"},{"startTime":1894.867,"endTime":1898.462,"body":"implementations within the organization."},{"startTime":1898.612,"endTime":1899.332,"body":"Advising."},{"startTime":1899.692,"endTime":1899.992,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1900.382,"endTime":1903.911,"body":"Now we're back to what, like what you were"},{"startTime":1900.382,"endTime":1903.911,"body":"saying, like Well, I need some metrics."},{"startTime":1903.941,"endTime":1904.121,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1904.121,"endTime":1910.768,"body":"Well, my advice if you need metrics is"},{"startTime":1904.121,"endTime":1910.768,"body":"let's drive through to the customers."},{"startTime":1911.268,"endTime":1915.078,"body":"Let's figure out if we're producing"},{"startTime":1911.268,"endTime":1915.078,"body":"valuable software every iteration,"},{"startTime":1915.438,"endTime":1919.368,"body":"and figure out a way to get that"},{"startTime":1915.438,"endTime":1919.368,"body":"information from the customers per sprint."},{"startTime":1919.868,"endTime":1921.62,"body":"So maybe it's after the sprint."},{"startTime":1921.937,"endTime":1925.537,"body":"They get prompted for some kind of"},{"startTime":1921.937,"endTime":1925.537,"body":"review of was this a valuable session?"},{"startTime":1925.747,"endTime":1927.337,"body":"Are you happy with the"},{"startTime":1925.747,"endTime":1927.337,"body":"direction of the product?"},{"startTime":1927.367,"endTime":1930.607,"body":"Maybe, maybe in addition to that, they"},{"startTime":1927.367,"endTime":1930.607,"body":"get stuff from their product people,"},{"startTime":1930.757,"endTime":1934.387,"body":"maybe their product people don't have"},{"startTime":1930.757,"endTime":1934.387,"body":"any kind of net promoter score stuff."},{"startTime":1934.417,"endTime":1937.987,"body":"Maybe their product people don't have"},{"startTime":1934.417,"endTime":1937.987,"body":"any kind of user feedback forms or"},{"startTime":1937.992,"endTime":1939.787,"body":"whatever, like use a scrum master."},{"startTime":1940.287,"endTime":1943.587,"body":"Like, it's easy to say, this is,"},{"startTime":1940.287,"endTime":1943.587,"body":"this is why it goes back to our"},{"startTime":1943.587,"endTime":1947.337,"body":"first bullet point of leading the"},{"startTime":1943.587,"endTime":1947.337,"body":"organization in Scrum adoption."},{"startTime":1947.487,"endTime":1947.697,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1947.697,"endTime":1951.507,"body":"When you're leading the organization, you"},{"startTime":1947.697,"endTime":1951.507,"body":"don't get to say, Well, I'm positioned"},{"startTime":1951.507,"endTime":1955.167,"body":"under the PMO and they're an old school"},{"startTime":1951.507,"endTime":1955.167,"body":"organization, so they're not, they don't"},{"startTime":1955.167,"endTime":1959.707,"body":"like it when I stretch outside to go"},{"startTime":1955.167,"endTime":1959.707,"body":"around them, to talk to these customers."},{"startTime":1960.207,"endTime":1964.977,"body":"If leading is part of your job, you don't"},{"startTime":1960.207,"endTime":1964.977,"body":"get to say, Well, I'm in this silo, so"},{"startTime":1964.977,"endTime":1966.417,"body":"I just gotta stay in this little silo."},{"startTime":1966.687,"endTime":1967.227,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":1967.227,"endTime":1969.297,"body":"However, here's what I'm"},{"startTime":1967.227,"endTime":1969.297,"body":"willing to wage on too."},{"startTime":1969.387,"endTime":1973.097,"body":"Like majority of this Scrum masters"},{"startTime":1969.387,"endTime":1973.097,"body":"out there today, I'm willing to"},{"startTime":1973.097,"endTime":1974.587,"body":"say, don't know what an NPS is."},{"startTime":1975.087,"endTime":1977.087,"body":"I, This is why I say it's a stretch."},{"startTime":1977.087,"endTime":1977.147,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1977.147,"endTime":1979.097,"body":"Because you've got, it's,"},{"startTime":1977.147,"endTime":1979.097,"body":"it's, it's a journey."},{"startTime":1979.097,"endTime":1982.427,"body":"You've gotta get to the point where"},{"startTime":1979.097,"endTime":1982.427,"body":"the business internally at least"},{"startTime":1982.697,"endTime":1984.437,"body":"understands how you're delivering."},{"startTime":1984.527,"endTime":1984.617,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1984.857,"endTime":1987.887,"body":"pretty, but over time, you need to get"},{"startTime":1984.857,"endTime":1987.887,"body":"to that point where you say, Well, even"},{"startTime":1987.887,"endTime":1989.627,"body":"the business really doesn't matter."},{"startTime":1989.867,"endTime":1989.927,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1989.927,"endTime":1992.137,"body":"What matters is your customers."},{"startTime":1992.167,"endTime":1992.347,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1992.592,"endTime":1994.087,"body":", get them in and say, What do you need?"},{"startTime":1994.117,"endTime":1994.357,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1994.507,"endTime":1994.867,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1995.367,"endTime":2000.127,"body":"And then if you go beyond that, it"},{"startTime":1995.367,"endTime":2000.127,"body":"doesn't even boil down to asking"},{"startTime":2000.127,"endTime":2001.267,"body":"the customer what they need."},{"startTime":2001.297,"endTime":2004.467,"body":"It boils down to just simply"},{"startTime":2001.297,"endTime":2004.467,"body":"shutting up and listening."},{"startTime":2004.737,"endTime":2004.797,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2004.797,"endTime":2005.697,"body":"What, what are they saying?"},{"startTime":2005.817,"endTime":2006.057,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2006.267,"endTime":2010.342,"body":"But again, if you are planning and"},{"startTime":2006.267,"endTime":2010.342,"body":"advising a Scrum implementation,"},{"startTime":2010.842,"endTime":2017.232,"body":"and you are not the one continually"},{"startTime":2010.842,"endTime":2017.232,"body":"driving the vision of we gotta get to"},{"startTime":2017.232,"endTime":2023.062,"body":"the customer, and you're, and you're"},{"startTime":2017.232,"endTime":2023.062,"body":"continuing to change the metrics, to"},{"startTime":2023.062,"endTime":2027.772,"body":"change the direction, to, to promote"},{"startTime":2023.062,"endTime":2027.772,"body":"the vision of let's get to what the"},{"startTime":2027.772,"endTime":2030.232,"body":"customer says in everything you do."},{"startTime":2030.732,"endTime":2031.272,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2031.332,"endTime":2034.032,"body":"You're not doing the best job"},{"startTime":2031.332,"endTime":2034.032,"body":"at, at this bullet point, like"},{"startTime":2034.032,"endTime":2035.532,"body":"you, it the product person."},{"startTime":2035.802,"endTime":2038.832,"body":"It's up to, it's up to the product"},{"startTime":2035.802,"endTime":2038.832,"body":"person to, to do discovery, to make"},{"startTime":2038.832,"endTime":2041.772,"body":"sure the business doesn't get involved"},{"startTime":2038.832,"endTime":2041.772,"body":"in stuff that's not profitable."},{"startTime":2041.922,"endTime":2043.842,"body":"To make sure the business doesn't"},{"startTime":2041.922,"endTime":2043.842,"body":"get involved in stuff that"},{"startTime":2043.842,"endTime":2045.142,"body":"the customer's not gonna use."},{"startTime":2045.292,"endTime":2047.452,"body":"They have a bunch of, a"},{"startTime":2045.292,"endTime":2047.452,"body":"bunch of things to knock off."},{"startTime":2047.452,"endTime":2047.662,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2047.667,"endTime":2048.142,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2048.142,"endTime":2051.742,"body":"Your job in the scrum master"},{"startTime":2048.142,"endTime":2051.742,"body":"position is the people."},{"startTime":2051.922,"endTime":2055.812,"body":"So if your job is the people let's"},{"startTime":2051.922,"endTime":2055.812,"body":"make sure that  you're getting"},{"startTime":2055.812,"endTime":2060.132,"body":"your arms around everybody in the"},{"startTime":2055.812,"endTime":2060.132,"body":"organization to bring them along Yeah."},{"startTime":2060.162,"endTime":2060.972,"body":"To where you're going."},{"startTime":2060.992,"endTime":2062.205,"body":"Like that, that's a whole job."},{"startTime":2062.205,"endTime":2063.495,"body":"Like advising a scrum."},{"startTime":2063.495,"endTime":2070.222,"body":"Implementation means kind of going outside"},{"startTime":2063.495,"endTime":2070.222,"body":"of, again, outside, if your borders are a"},{"startTime":2070.222,"endTime":2074.161,"body":"silo, like we talk about cross functional"},{"startTime":2070.222,"endTime":2074.161,"body":"teams versus component teams, right?"},{"startTime":2074.161,"endTime":2074.341,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2074.701,"endTime":2075.751,"body":"That's, that's fine."},{"startTime":2075.751,"endTime":2079.231,"body":"You come in, you're a scrum master and"},{"startTime":2075.751,"endTime":2079.231,"body":"you realize that may like, maybe it"},{"startTime":2079.231,"endTime":2080.611,"body":"didn't come out during the interview."},{"startTime":2080.851,"endTime":2083.611,"body":"When you start working, you"},{"startTime":2080.851,"endTime":2083.611,"body":"realize, They're component teams."},{"startTime":2084.061,"endTime":2086.971,"body":"They're working on their little thing,"},{"startTime":2084.061,"endTime":2086.971,"body":"the business analyst team passes it"},{"startTime":2086.971,"endTime":2090.421,"body":"to the development team, they pass it"},{"startTime":2086.971,"endTime":2090.421,"body":"to the QA team, they pass it to the,"},{"startTime":2090.871,"endTime":2094.321,"body":"I don't know, DevOps team or whatever"},{"startTime":2090.871,"endTime":2094.321,"body":"that sends it to production, and"},{"startTime":2094.321,"endTime":2096.361,"body":"then that sends it to a u a T team."},{"startTime":2096.511,"endTime":2096.751,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2096.751,"endTime":2099.001,"body":"And then customers get it,"},{"startTime":2096.751,"endTime":2099.001,"body":"and then nobody, none of those"},{"startTime":2099.006,"endTime":2100.741,"body":"teams talk to the customers."},{"startTime":2101.071,"endTime":2104.611,"body":"Only the project manager who's"},{"startTime":2101.071,"endTime":2104.611,"body":"in charge of all the phases talks"},{"startTime":2104.611,"endTime":2105.421,"body":"to the, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2105.421,"endTime":2106.441,"body":"Like you don't realize this."},{"startTime":2106.441,"endTime":2106.621,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2106.771,"endTime":2109.531,"body":"I don't know how you would get through an"},{"startTime":2106.771,"endTime":2109.531,"body":"interview not realizing this, but Right."},{"startTime":2109.531,"endTime":2113.099,"body":"The point is, if, if, if you come in"},{"startTime":2109.531,"endTime":2113.099,"body":"the organization as a scrum master and,"},{"startTime":2113.104,"endTime":2119.639,"body":"and your role is advising their Scrum"},{"startTime":2113.104,"endTime":2119.639,"body":"implementation, your, your new job now"},{"startTime":2119.879,"endTime":2122.729,"body":"coaching the organization, cuz that's"},{"startTime":2119.879,"endTime":2122.729,"body":"the bullet point we're talking about."},{"startTime":2122.759,"endTime":2122.909,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2123.209,"endTime":2126.269,"body":"Becomes trying to talk to"},{"startTime":2123.209,"endTime":2126.269,"body":"every single one of these team."},{"startTime":2126.269,"endTime":2129.479,"body":"Like you might only be on like"},{"startTime":2126.269,"endTime":2129.479,"body":"the DevOps team or the u a t team."},{"startTime":2129.479,"endTime":2129.809,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2130.309,"endTime":2133.669,"body":"Your job now becomes talking to every"},{"startTime":2130.309,"endTime":2133.669,"body":"single team, talking to the project"},{"startTime":2133.669,"endTime":2137.559,"body":"manager, talking to the customers, and"},{"startTime":2133.669,"endTime":2137.559,"body":"then talking to executives, and then"},{"startTime":2137.564,"endTime":2142.819,"body":"putting all of that input together,"},{"startTime":2137.564,"endTime":2142.819,"body":"But you're not hired or incentivized"},{"startTime":2142.999,"endTime":2146.042,"body":"or monitored or you know, Yeah."},{"startTime":2146.102,"endTime":2146.672,"body":"Tracked."},{"startTime":2146.762,"endTime":2147.122,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":2147.122,"endTime":2151.636,"body":"I don't know another business way to say"},{"startTime":2147.122,"endTime":2151.636,"body":"this, like none of the, going outside of"},{"startTime":2151.636,"endTime":2157.326,"body":"your little tiny silo, but, but according"},{"startTime":2151.636,"endTime":2157.326,"body":"to the scrum guide, that is your job."},{"startTime":2157.656,"endTime":2158.256,"body":"It, it is."},{"startTime":2158.256,"endTime":2159.756,"body":"But a lot of scrum, well, not a lot."},{"startTime":2159.756,"endTime":2162.216,"body":"Most Scrum masters aren't"},{"startTime":2159.756,"endTime":2162.216,"body":"even equipped to do that."},{"startTime":2162.486,"endTime":2163.636,"body":"They're not equipped, I understand."},{"startTime":2163.636,"endTime":2164.736,"body":"To do all of these things."},{"startTime":2164.736,"endTime":2170.701,"body":"All they know is the scripted idea of"},{"startTime":2164.736,"endTime":2170.701,"body":"here's what you do in a in a scrum cycle."},{"startTime":2170.701,"endTime":2171.451,"body":"So that's what I'll do."},{"startTime":2171.451,"endTime":2171.691,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2171.811,"endTime":2173.131,"body":"I'll take care of the event."},{"startTime":2173.136,"endTime":2173.471,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2173.971,"endTime":2176.581,"body":"And I'm there for my team"},{"startTime":2173.971,"endTime":2176.581,"body":"if they raise blockers."},{"startTime":2176.611,"endTime":2177.841,"body":"That's about the extent of it."},{"startTime":2177.841,"endTime":2178.111,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2178.111,"endTime":2178.271,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2178.441,"endTime":2182.131,"body":"So to your point, Yes, that, that's"},{"startTime":2178.441,"endTime":2182.131,"body":"what the scrum guy is saying."},{"startTime":2182.161,"endTime":2184.141,"body":"It requires a different"},{"startTime":2182.161,"endTime":2184.141,"body":"set of skills though."},{"startTime":2184.141,"endTime":2184.291,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2184.351,"endTime":2188.041,"body":"But it requires diplomacy, it"},{"startTime":2184.351,"endTime":2188.041,"body":"requires negotiation skills."},{"startTime":2188.046,"endTime":2188.221,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2188.226,"endTime":2188.401,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2188.401,"endTime":2190.905,"body":"Everything you said was covered"},{"startTime":2188.401,"endTime":2190.905,"body":"in a previous podcast of part"},{"startTime":2190.905,"endTime":2192.075,"body":"number one serving the Scrum team."},{"startTime":2192.075,"endTime":2192.255,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2192.285,"endTime":2193.065,"body":"Yes, you do."},{"startTime":2193.379,"endTime":2197.266,"body":"Serve the Scrum team and then like,"},{"startTime":2193.379,"endTime":2197.266,"body":"Oh, well, what do you do all day?"},{"startTime":2197.266,"endTime":2200.696,"body":"Well, I mean, are we talking about"},{"startTime":2197.266,"endTime":2200.696,"body":"making connections with all the other"},{"startTime":2200.701,"endTime":2203.356,"body":"teams in order to break down the silos?"},{"startTime":2203.356,"endTime":2203.446,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2203.476,"endTime":2206.457,"body":"And try to convince them and help"},{"startTime":2203.476,"endTime":2206.457,"body":"them understand that you know, maybe"},{"startTime":2206.462,"endTime":2210.597,"body":"we take a person off each team and"},{"startTime":2206.462,"endTime":2210.597,"body":"make this, make this trial team"},{"startTime":2210.597,"endTime":2214.077,"body":"that does all the phases at once"},{"startTime":2210.597,"endTime":2214.077,"body":"and talks directly to the customers."},{"startTime":2214.348,"endTime":2218.488,"body":"And maybe we were parallel with the"},{"startTime":2214.348,"endTime":2218.488,"body":"project manager for a while, just"},{"startTime":2218.488,"endTime":2219.688,"body":"to test out this new way of working."},{"startTime":2219.688,"endTime":2219.778,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2219.928,"endTime":2223.028,"body":"Just to see  anyone who anyone"},{"startTime":2219.928,"endTime":2223.028,"body":"who's listening to this, who,"},{"startTime":2223.058,"endTime":2226.028,"body":"who's a scrum manager, who says,"},{"startTime":2223.058,"endTime":2226.028,"body":"Well, I'm just overwhelmed with"},{"startTime":2226.028,"endTime":2227.468,"body":"the work that I do for the teams."},{"startTime":2227.776,"endTime":2230.066,"body":"I understand write all this down."},{"startTime":2230.276,"endTime":2233.216,"body":"Because when someone asks"},{"startTime":2230.276,"endTime":2233.216,"body":"with that acerbic attitude"},{"startTime":2233.216,"endTime":2234.566,"body":"of what do you do all day?"},{"startTime":2234.836,"endTime":2235.406,"body":"Give 'em the list."},{"startTime":2235.406,"endTime":2239.156,"body":"You know, I'm going through an"},{"startTime":2235.406,"endTime":2239.156,"body":"organizational change slowly."},{"startTime":2239.656,"endTime":2242.746,"body":"You know, I basically,"},{"startTime":2239.656,"endTime":2242.746,"body":"I'm, I'm eroding a glacier."},{"startTime":2243.246,"endTime":2247.386,"body":"slowly over time, because"},{"startTime":2243.246,"endTime":2247.386,"body":"that's the only way Right."},{"startTime":2247.386,"endTime":2248.526,"body":"To erode a glacier."},{"startTime":2248.826,"endTime":2251.676,"body":"You know, we're moving at a glacial"},{"startTime":2248.826,"endTime":2251.676,"body":"pace, especially if you're in a"},{"startTime":2251.676,"endTime":2253.476,"body":"global, very large organization."},{"startTime":2253.656,"endTime":2254.106,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2254.296,"endTime":2257.161,"body":"I don't know if we touched on it"},{"startTime":2254.296,"endTime":2257.161,"body":"on any other podcast, but what"},{"startTime":2257.161,"endTime":2260.611,"body":"you're saying is really the kind of"},{"startTime":2257.161,"endTime":2260.611,"body":"underpinnings of agile transformation."},{"startTime":2260.671,"endTime":2265.591,"body":"It, they take time and you go, Well, we're"},{"startTime":2260.671,"endTime":2265.591,"body":"gonna fund that for six month or a year."},{"startTime":2265.921,"endTime":2266.221,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2266.251,"endTime":2267.601,"body":"Are we agile now at the end of the year?"},{"startTime":2267.661,"endTime":2271.741,"body":"It takes time because fundamentally it's"},{"startTime":2267.661,"endTime":2271.741,"body":"about changing behavior patterns, right?"},{"startTime":2272.041,"endTime":2272.971,"body":"What do you do all day?"},{"startTime":2272.971,"endTime":2275.191,"body":"I change behavior over"},{"startTime":2272.971,"endTime":2275.191,"body":"a large period of time."},{"startTime":2275.251,"endTime":2275.371,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2275.851,"endTime":2278.041,"body":"However long it takes to"},{"startTime":2275.851,"endTime":2278.041,"body":"change human behavior."},{"startTime":2278.041,"endTime":2278.611,"body":"Yeah, I know."},{"startTime":2278.951,"endTime":2282.039,"body":"Talk to a ui ux designer about"},{"startTime":2278.951,"endTime":2282.039,"body":"changing user behavior, if you"},{"startTime":2282.039,"endTime":2282.999,"body":"wanna know more about that one."},{"startTime":2283.058,"endTime":2285.128,"body":"Let's move to the third bullet"},{"startTime":2283.058,"endTime":2285.128,"body":"point for the purposes of moving"},{"startTime":2285.133,"endTime":2289.148,"body":"on quickly, helping employees and"},{"startTime":2285.133,"endTime":2289.148,"body":"stakeholders understand and enact an"},{"startTime":2289.148,"endTime":2291.998,"body":"empirical approach for complex work."},{"startTime":2292.238,"endTime":2294.078,"body":"Wow, that bullet point's a mouthful."},{"startTime":2294.078,"endTime":2295.218,"body":"So I'm, I'm gonna say it one more time."},{"startTime":2295.703,"endTime":2299.963,"body":"So the third bullet point in how a"},{"startTime":2295.703,"endTime":2299.963,"body":"scrumer serves the organization is helping"},{"startTime":2299.963,"endTime":2302.063,"body":"employees and stakeholders understand."},{"startTime":2302.333,"endTime":2306.383,"body":"Are there any, any other groupings in the,"},{"startTime":2302.333,"endTime":2306.383,"body":"like helping employees and stakeholders?"},{"startTime":2306.443,"endTime":2307.493,"body":"That's everyone, right?"},{"startTime":2307.498,"endTime":2308.273,"body":"Pretty much."},{"startTime":2308.278,"endTime":2308.546,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2308.546,"endTime":2314.814,"body":"Help helping everyone understand and enact"},{"startTime":2308.546,"endTime":2314.814,"body":"in empirical approach for complex work."},{"startTime":2314.864,"endTime":2318.317,"body":"Like I said, if we did a previous podcast"},{"startTime":2314.864,"endTime":2318.317,"body":"on this that we would never post , that"},{"startTime":2318.317,"endTime":2323.45,"body":"will not get posted I would've posited"},{"startTime":2318.317,"endTime":2323.45,"body":"somewhere along the lines of, This bullet"},{"startTime":2323.45,"endTime":2329.75,"body":"point basically encompasses all of all"},{"startTime":2323.45,"endTime":2329.75,"body":"of product discovery, a all, all of"},{"startTime":2329.75,"endTime":2331.49,"body":"what is encompassing product discovery."},{"startTime":2331.49,"endTime":2336.444,"body":"Because taking an empirical"},{"startTime":2331.49,"endTime":2336.444,"body":"approach involves two things that"},{"startTime":2336.444,"endTime":2340.674,"body":"people are not good at generally"},{"startTime":2336.444,"endTime":2340.674,"body":"for, again, just my observation."},{"startTime":2340.944,"endTime":2341.134,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2341.184,"endTime":2344.714,"body":"Just my observation, I, I feel"},{"startTime":2341.184,"endTime":2344.714,"body":"like I should restart this to,"},{"startTime":2344.714,"endTime":2347.994,"body":"to kind of soften the blow to,"},{"startTime":2344.714,"endTime":2347.994,"body":"people's fragile egos for this one."},{"startTime":2348.513,"endTime":2354.722,"body":"Just in my observations from my only,"},{"startTime":2348.513,"endTime":2354.722,"body":"only from my own experiences, what this"},{"startTime":2354.722,"endTime":2361.812,"body":"bullet point means is you are taking an"},{"startTime":2354.722,"endTime":2361.812,"body":"empirical approach to software development"},{"startTime":2361.817,"endTime":2367.982,"body":"work, which means sometimes when people"},{"startTime":2361.817,"endTime":2367.982,"body":"come up with ideas to solve complex"},{"startTime":2367.982,"endTime":2371.692,"body":"problems, Those ideas may not pan out."},{"startTime":2372.192,"endTime":2377.042,"body":"They may end up being bad ideas or"},{"startTime":2372.192,"endTime":2377.042,"body":"bad business cases in the, They might"},{"startTime":2377.042,"endTime":2380.282,"body":"lead back to you saying, This is a"},{"startTime":2377.042,"endTime":2380.282,"body":"bad business case in the first place."},{"startTime":2380.282,"endTime":2380.372,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2380.552,"endTime":2382.172,"body":"We shouldn't be doing this."},{"startTime":2382.392,"endTime":2386.482,"body":"We shouldn't be engaging in"},{"startTime":2382.392,"endTime":2386.482,"body":"using a piece of software a way"},{"startTime":2386.482,"endTime":2387.932,"body":"it's not intended to be used."},{"startTime":2387.932,"endTime":2391.472,"body":"Because maybe when the vendor makes"},{"startTime":2387.932,"endTime":2391.472,"body":"a change, they'll blow up our whole"},{"startTime":2391.477,"endTime":2396.034,"body":"business model or they'll blow up our"},{"startTime":2391.477,"endTime":2396.034,"body":"whole technological implementation."},{"startTime":2396.034,"endTime":2398.326,"body":"It's helping employees and stakeholders."},{"startTime":2398.326,"endTime":2400.756,"body":"Again, I think employees and"},{"startTime":2398.326,"endTime":2400.756,"body":"stakeholders, basically everybody"},{"startTime":2401.256,"endTime":2405.746,"body":"helping employees and stakeholders"},{"startTime":2401.256,"endTime":2405.746,"body":"understand empirical methods are"},{"startTime":2405.746,"endTime":2407.666,"body":"working, empirical methods are working."},{"startTime":2408.166,"endTime":2411.736,"body":". I think the groupings employee and"},{"startTime":2408.166,"endTime":2411.736,"body":"stakeholders is a large universe,"},{"startTime":2411.736,"endTime":2413.476,"body":"but it's not everybody, right?"},{"startTime":2413.476,"endTime":2417.186,"body":"So again, in a fairly mature"},{"startTime":2413.476,"endTime":2417.186,"body":"agile organization, it would"},{"startTime":2417.186,"endTime":2418.506,"body":"include customers as well."},{"startTime":2418.596,"endTime":2418.896,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2418.926,"endTime":2420.516,"body":"But let's stay with this."},{"startTime":2420.606,"endTime":2421.356,"body":"Some guy says."},{"startTime":2421.356,"endTime":2424.696,"body":"So, so employees and stakeholders,"},{"startTime":2421.356,"endTime":2424.696,"body":"understanding and enact empirical"},{"startTime":2424.696,"endTime":2425.866,"body":"approach with complex work."},{"startTime":2426.366,"endTime":2427.296,"body":"Couple of things there."},{"startTime":2427.386,"endTime":2431.096,"body":"If, if the work wasn't complex,"},{"startTime":2427.386,"endTime":2431.096,"body":"we would just stamp out"},{"startTime":2431.096,"endTime":2432.626,"body":"widgets all day long, right?"},{"startTime":2433.016,"endTime":2435.896,"body":"It is complex things"},{"startTime":2433.016,"endTime":2435.896,"body":"aren't known necessarily."},{"startTime":2435.966,"endTime":2440.644,"body":"So an empirical approach simply"},{"startTime":2435.966,"endTime":2440.644,"body":"boils down to try something, see"},{"startTime":2440.724,"endTime":2442.624,"body":"how it works, and respond to that."},{"startTime":2443.124,"endTime":2445.254,"body":"That's where it boils down"},{"startTime":2443.124,"endTime":2445.254,"body":"to at the end of the day."},{"startTime":2445.674,"endTime":2451.294,"body":"Now, helping employees enact an"},{"startTime":2445.674,"endTime":2451.294,"body":"empirical approach in real life."},{"startTime":2451.299,"endTime":2455.344,"body":"What that looks like for a scrum master"},{"startTime":2451.299,"endTime":2455.344,"body":"day in day out would be to listen."},{"startTime":2455.349,"endTime":2456.334,"body":"Listen to ideas."},{"startTime":2456.334,"endTime":2459.904,"body":"Don't block people out, because"},{"startTime":2456.334,"endTime":2459.904,"body":"initial reaction in your mind"},{"startTime":2459.904,"endTime":2461.224,"body":"might be, Well, that'll never work."},{"startTime":2461.724,"endTime":2462.864,"body":"You don't know."},{"startTime":2462.864,"endTime":2464.304,"body":"That's so hold that judgment."},{"startTime":2464.634,"endTime":2465.144,"body":"Right, Right."},{"startTime":2465.555,"endTime":2468.645,"body":"Listen to them, Ask other questions."},{"startTime":2469.005,"endTime":2471.555,"body":"Ask questions and get everybody's input."},{"startTime":2471.675,"endTime":2472.485,"body":"That's the first thing."},{"startTime":2472.545,"endTime":2472.995,"body":"Oh boy."},{"startTime":2472.995,"endTime":2475.155,"body":"I like, I know, I know you're in"},{"startTime":2472.995,"endTime":2475.155,"body":"the middle of a thought, so it's"},{"startTime":2475.155,"endTime":2476.55,"body":"not cool you off, but that's fine."},{"startTime":2476.55,"endTime":2480.266,"body":"I just thought about a team I was"},{"startTime":2476.55,"endTime":2480.266,"body":"on one time where the scrum master"},{"startTime":2480.266,"endTime":2482.384,"body":"of the Scrum, they didn't really"},{"startTime":2480.266,"endTime":2482.384,"body":"have a dedicated scrum master."},{"startTime":2482.384,"endTime":2484.994,"body":"I think it was a QA person that did"},{"startTime":2482.384,"endTime":2484.994,"body":"this role, But their, their job on"},{"startTime":2484.994,"endTime":2491.48,"body":"that team was to just, just parrot"},{"startTime":2484.994,"endTime":2491.48,"body":"the phrase what makes you think that's"},{"startTime":2491.485,"endTime":2494.098,"body":"the best solution to this problem?"},{"startTime":2494.398,"endTime":2497.488,"body":"And they would just say that regardless,"},{"startTime":2494.398,"endTime":2497.488,"body":"regardless if it's something that we"},{"startTime":2497.488,"endTime":2500.488,"body":"talked about for a million years or"},{"startTime":2497.488,"endTime":2500.488,"body":"something that some, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2500.668,"endTime":2503.998,"body":"Cause occasionally you'd have a VP come in"},{"startTime":2500.668,"endTime":2503.998,"body":"the room and be like, I need to drop down"},{"startTime":2504.238,"endTime":2506.368,"body":"to change the color or this, or whatever."},{"startTime":2506.868,"endTime":2510.558,"body":"What makes you think that's the best"},{"startTime":2506.868,"endTime":2510.558,"body":"way to solve the customer's problem?"},{"startTime":2510.948,"endTime":2511.038,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2511.043,"endTime":2515.538,"body":"Like if you ask, if you ask that question"},{"startTime":2511.043,"endTime":2515.538,"body":"without the problem ever being state."},{"startTime":2515.928,"endTime":2516.418,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2516.76,"endTime":2520.149,"body":"Like you're really opening up in . I"},{"startTime":2516.76,"endTime":2520.149,"body":"guess I should step back for a second."},{"startTime":2520.329,"endTime":2523.359,"body":"In some cultures you're really"},{"startTime":2520.329,"endTime":2523.359,"body":"opening yourself up for a fight."},{"startTime":2523.419,"endTime":2523.569,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2523.839,"endTime":2524.739,"body":", let's start there."},{"startTime":2524.959,"endTime":2527.344,"body":"In other cultures, I mean,"},{"startTime":2524.959,"endTime":2527.344,"body":"you're really opening yourself"},{"startTime":2527.344,"endTime":2528.814,"body":"up to explore all options."},{"startTime":2528.964,"endTime":2532.714,"body":"So you're not making a huge mistake in"},{"startTime":2528.964,"endTime":2532.714,"body":"wasting a bunch of money on implementation"},{"startTime":2533.014,"endTime":2536.884,"body":"when you haven't really thought about what"},{"startTime":2533.014,"endTime":2536.884,"body":"is the real problem we're trying to solve."},{"startTime":2536.899,"endTime":2540.118,"body":"Cuz depending on the type of company,"},{"startTime":2536.899,"endTime":2540.118,"body":"you mean people sell stuff, promise"},{"startTime":2540.123,"endTime":2541.978,"body":"stuff, whatever, all the time it happens."},{"startTime":2542.008,"endTime":2542.548,"body":"Yeah, that's fine."},{"startTime":2542.598,"endTime":2545.958,"body":"I'm not trying to change a world with"},{"startTime":2542.598,"endTime":2545.958,"body":"this, but I am trying to say this, this"},{"startTime":2546.018,"endTime":2550.568,"body":"helping people understand an empirical"},{"startTime":2546.018,"endTime":2550.568,"body":"approach, it does mean, if you can have"},{"startTime":2550.568,"endTime":2555.128,"body":"somebody, and again, the scrum guide taps"},{"startTime":2550.568,"endTime":2555.128,"body":"a scrum master to be that somebody, if you"},{"startTime":2555.133,"endTime":2559.403,"body":"can have somebody on your team that always"},{"startTime":2555.133,"endTime":2559.403,"body":"says, What makes you think show me your"},{"startTime":2559.408,"endTime":2562.963,"body":"evidence that leads you to this conclusion"},{"startTime":2563.373,"endTime":2563.583,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2563.583,"endTime":2568.763,"body":"And Scrum master doesn't have to"},{"startTime":2563.583,"endTime":2568.763,"body":"necessarily judge from a technical"},{"startTime":2568.763,"endTime":2570.173,"body":"perspective or anything like that."},{"startTime":2570.178,"endTime":2570.503,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2570.803,"endTime":2574.403,"body":"They just simply have to make sure"},{"startTime":2570.803,"endTime":2574.403,"body":"that nobody's bulldozing somebody else."},{"startTime":2574.403,"endTime":2574.703,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2575.003,"endTime":2579.383,"body":"Who comes up with an idea and somebody"},{"startTime":2575.003,"endTime":2579.383,"body":"just usually that's, that's true in a"},{"startTime":2579.388,"endTime":2583.231,"body":"rank based, title based organization"},{"startTime":2579.388,"endTime":2583.231,"body":"rather than a collaborative environment."},{"startTime":2583.291,"endTime":2583.381,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2583.621,"endTime":2585.041,"body":"with somebody, well, that'll never work."},{"startTime":2585.291,"endTime":2588.231,"body":"And then the other person who came up"},{"startTime":2585.291,"endTime":2588.231,"body":"with it is just immediately shut down."},{"startTime":2588.291,"endTime":2588.501,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2589.001,"endTime":2593.381,"body":"A scrum master would then say, Okay,"},{"startTime":2589.001,"endTime":2593.381,"body":"I hear you say it would never work."},{"startTime":2593.681,"endTime":2595.571,"body":"What makes you think it wouldn't work?"},{"startTime":2595.576,"endTime":2595.691,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2595.691,"endTime":2597.491,"body":"And what makes you think"},{"startTime":2595.691,"endTime":2597.491,"body":"this is a good idea?"},{"startTime":2597.701,"endTime":2599.621,"body":"Entertain those, those kinds of things."},{"startTime":2600.024,"endTime":2604.875,"body":"So I agree that a scrum master can"},{"startTime":2600.024,"endTime":2604.875,"body":"facilitate the dialogue, Right?"},{"startTime":2604.895,"endTime":2605.055,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2605.385,"endTime":2609.015,"body":"But there is a little bit more than"},{"startTime":2605.385,"endTime":2609.015,"body":"that here, and here's why I say that."},{"startTime":2609.515,"endTime":2613.855,"body":"No matter what option you pursue, The"},{"startTime":2609.515,"endTime":2613.855,"body":"scrum master is the one that sets the"},{"startTime":2613.855,"endTime":2616.015,"body":"expectation that there are no guarantees."},{"startTime":2616.195,"endTime":2619.215,"body":"We're gonna try this and"},{"startTime":2616.195,"endTime":2619.215,"body":"we'll see how it goes."},{"startTime":2619.335,"endTime":2619.755,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2620.025,"endTime":2623.475,"body":"And at some point, pretty soon here,"},{"startTime":2620.025,"endTime":2623.475,"body":"we'll know whether it's working or not."},{"startTime":2623.475,"endTime":2623.535,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2624.035,"endTime":2628.345,"body":"And then we'll reevaluate if it's"},{"startTime":2624.035,"endTime":2628.345,"body":"working or we think it might be working"},{"startTime":2628.345,"endTime":2629.965,"body":"or it's certainly not failing yet."},{"startTime":2630.465,"endTime":2631.065,"body":"Continue."},{"startTime":2631.365,"endTime":2634.725,"body":". Until such time as we think,"},{"startTime":2631.365,"endTime":2634.725,"body":"Wow, this is a, an non-starter."},{"startTime":2634.845,"endTime":2634.965,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2635.205,"endTime":2635.895,"body":", then we'll go back."},{"startTime":2635.955,"endTime":2639.935,"body":"But at no point what we say we failed."},{"startTime":2640.185,"endTime":2642.795,"body":". What we'll say is that approach"},{"startTime":2640.185,"endTime":2642.795,"body":"didn't work, but here's"},{"startTime":2642.795,"endTime":2643.785,"body":"what we learned from that."},{"startTime":2644.115,"endTime":2646.605,"body":"How do we pivot and"},{"startTime":2644.115,"endTime":2646.605,"body":"incorporate the learning?"},{"startTime":2646.935,"endTime":2651.195,"body":"That culture has to be instilled"},{"startTime":2646.935,"endTime":2651.195,"body":"and encouraged by the scrum master."},{"startTime":2651.195,"endTime":2652.455,"body":"Cause nobody else is gonna do it."},{"startTime":2652.575,"endTime":2652.785,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2653.035,"endTime":2655.225,"body":"how you serve the team is"},{"startTime":2653.035,"endTime":2655.225,"body":"in a whole nother podcast."},{"startTime":2655.23,"endTime":2655.285,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2655.585,"endTime":2657.295,"body":"We're talking about the organization now."},{"startTime":2657.295,"endTime":2661.795,"body":"So this is driving this"},{"startTime":2657.295,"endTime":2661.795,"body":"mentality organizationally."},{"startTime":2662.295,"endTime":2665.565,"body":"You know, get, getting the organization"},{"startTime":2662.295,"endTime":2665.565,"body":"to understand like, Hey, don't come to"},{"startTime":2665.565,"endTime":2669.795,"body":"me and say I need a drop down that turns"},{"startTime":2665.565,"endTime":2669.795,"body":"this box gray and I need it by November"},{"startTime":2669.795,"endTime":2674.14,"body":"1st, or whatever, January 1st, or whatever"},{"startTime":2669.795,"endTime":2674.14,"body":"like, why are you bringing me a solution?"},{"startTime":2674.195,"endTime":2676.525,"body":"There's nothing to try in that solution."},{"startTime":2676.525,"endTime":2680.745,"body":"There's no empiricism right in what"},{"startTime":2676.525,"endTime":2680.745,"body":"you just brought me, So , first of"},{"startTime":2680.745,"endTime":2684.715,"body":"all, it might not be the whatever"},{"startTime":2680.745,"endTime":2684.715,"body":"random unreasonable stakeholders that"},{"startTime":2684.715,"endTime":2686.005,"body":"I'm pinning in this conversation."},{"startTime":2686.275,"endTime":2690.895,"body":"It might be the product owner who's"},{"startTime":2686.275,"endTime":2690.895,"body":"just taking orders from people or on the"},{"startTime":2690.895,"endTime":2692.935,"body":"organization that you need to coach Sure."},{"startTime":2693.085,"endTime":2697.731,"body":"To say, Hey, listen we don't know if this"},{"startTime":2693.085,"endTime":2697.731,"body":"is the, the financially the best option"},{"startTime":2698.001,"endTime":2700.071,"body":"because there's been no experiments done."},{"startTime":2700.111,"endTime":2706.111,"body":"If I'm shoving us back into the discovery"},{"startTime":2700.111,"endTime":2706.111,"body":"space before the development team"},{"startTime":2706.171,"endTime":2710.001,"body":"actually starts working on implementing"},{"startTime":2706.171,"endTime":2710.001,"body":"a solution, I'm saying the Scrum master"},{"startTime":2710.001,"endTime":2715.411,"body":"has an opportunity now to talk to all"},{"startTime":2710.001,"endTime":2715.411,"body":"of the product managers, organizations,"},{"startTime":2715.471,"endTime":2718.111,"body":"talk to all of them and say, Hey, before"},{"startTime":2715.471,"endTime":2718.111,"body":"you bring something, your development"},{"startTime":2718.111,"endTime":2722.341,"body":"teams, you should do a little bit of"},{"startTime":2718.111,"endTime":2722.341,"body":"vetting to figure out if you know,"},{"startTime":2722.341,"endTime":2723.961,"body":"if customers are going to use it."},{"startTime":2724.171,"endTime":2729.186,"body":"If customers if it's technically feasible"},{"startTime":2724.171,"endTime":2729.186,"body":"to drive around the organization, build"},{"startTime":2729.186,"endTime":2732.546,"body":"some alignment, build some consensus if"},{"startTime":2729.186,"endTime":2732.546,"body":"you if you prefer that term or whatever."},{"startTime":2733.046,"endTime":2737.006,"body":"But there, there should be  a little"},{"startTime":2733.046,"endTime":2737.006,"body":"bit of work done beforehand so that"},{"startTime":2737.006,"endTime":2742.444,"body":"we're not testing ideas through"},{"startTime":2737.006,"endTime":2742.444,"body":"building features and development."},{"startTime":2742.761,"endTime":2743.991,"body":"Yeah, completely agree."},{"startTime":2744.261,"endTime":2748.071,"body":"You know, I think the flip side, not,"},{"startTime":2744.261,"endTime":2748.071,"body":"not even the flip side, really, the, just"},{"startTime":2748.071,"endTime":2754.201,"body":"another angle on that is the scrum master"},{"startTime":2748.071,"endTime":2754.201,"body":"should encourage not only this kind of,"},{"startTime":2754.681,"endTime":2757.111,"body":"it's almost risk taking behavior, right?"},{"startTime":2757.501,"endTime":2761.281,"body":"In light of not knowing within limits,"},{"startTime":2757.501,"endTime":2761.281,"body":"but in light of not knowing the"},{"startTime":2761.281,"endTime":2763.471,"body":"future, you, you're trying an approach."},{"startTime":2763.971,"endTime":2766.821,"body":"Look at it from your team's perspective,"},{"startTime":2763.971,"endTime":2766.821,"body":"Listen to all your developers."},{"startTime":2766.821,"endTime":2768.711,"body":"They may be able to say"},{"startTime":2766.821,"endTime":2768.711,"body":"and to your example."},{"startTime":2768.801,"endTime":2768.921,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2768.951,"endTime":2771.651,"body":"When someone says, Oh, and you drop"},{"startTime":2768.951,"endTime":2771.651,"body":"down and make this thing gray, and the"},{"startTime":2771.651,"endTime":2775.091,"body":"developer might say, Well, dropdown"},{"startTime":2771.651,"endTime":2775.091,"body":"is probably not the best option."},{"startTime":2775.211,"endTime":2775.601,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2776.087,"endTime":2778.517,"body":"Encourage questioning from your team."},{"startTime":2778.787,"endTime":2781.487,"body":"Encourage them to ask, Why"},{"startTime":2778.787,"endTime":2781.487,"body":"do you need to make it gray?"},{"startTime":2781.637,"endTime":2781.787,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2782.117,"endTime":2782.477,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2782.477,"endTime":2783.947,"body":"As opposed to a dropdowns."},{"startTime":2783.947,"endTime":2786.077,"body":"The answer, I mean, to your"},{"startTime":2783.947,"endTime":2786.077,"body":"point, that's a solution."},{"startTime":2786.227,"endTime":2787.967,"body":"Someone's bringing you,"},{"startTime":2786.227,"endTime":2787.967,"body":"where's the problem?"},{"startTime":2788.237,"endTime":2790.037,"body":"I need to make it great because mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2790.1,"endTime":2794.09,"body":"And then some other developer"},{"startTime":2790.1,"endTime":2794.09,"body":"might say, Well, gray Gray doesn't"},{"startTime":2794.09,"endTime":2796.49,"body":"really work with the ADA standards."},{"startTime":2796.49,"endTime":2796.91,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":2796.915,"endTime":2797.3,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2797.305,"endTime":2797.31,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2797.51,"endTime":2798.2,"body":"Fantastic."},{"startTime":2798.23,"endTime":2798.65,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2798.71,"endTime":2800.57,"body":"So have a discussion around that."},{"startTime":2800.57,"endTime":2802.67,"body":"Maybe it's not gray, maybe"},{"startTime":2800.57,"endTime":2802.67,"body":"it's some other shade."},{"startTime":2802.73,"endTime":2802.79,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2802.79,"endTime":2802.99,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2803.002,"endTime":2806.562,"body":"Overall it just boils down to making"},{"startTime":2803.002,"endTime":2806.562,"body":"sure that you are enabling people to"},{"startTime":2806.567,"endTime":2809.592,"body":"talk without risk of being shut down."},{"startTime":2809.622,"endTime":2809.942,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2809.942,"endTime":2810.102,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2810.107,"endTime":2810.132,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2810.132,"endTime":2811.182,"body":"By anybody else?"},{"startTime":2811.272,"endTime":2816.372,"body":"Entertain all alternatives, Select"},{"startTime":2811.272,"endTime":2816.372,"body":"the best one based on not gut."},{"startTime":2816.372,"endTime":2817.902,"body":"Feel your opinion."},{"startTime":2818.232,"endTime":2819.912,"body":"Opinion of somebody in the room."},{"startTime":2819.917,"endTime":2820.238,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2820.488,"endTime":2823.248,"body":".  outside of the organization or"},{"startTime":2820.488,"endTime":2823.248,"body":"outside the scrum team, rather from"},{"startTime":2823.248,"endTime":2824.448,"body":"someone else in the organization."},{"startTime":2824.478,"endTime":2824.628,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2825.128,"endTime":2828.188,"body":"And see how it goes, but"},{"startTime":2825.128,"endTime":2828.188,"body":"then be prepared to pivot."},{"startTime":2828.338,"endTime":2828.578,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2828.818,"endTime":2832.808,"body":"set that up ahead of time so people are"},{"startTime":2828.818,"endTime":2832.808,"body":"not perceiving that as your team failed."},{"startTime":2833.018,"endTime":2833.258,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2833.258,"endTime":2834.878,"body":"That that's not how it should go."},{"startTime":2834.908,"endTime":2838.418,"body":"You know, the other thing I, I would do"},{"startTime":2834.908,"endTime":2838.418,"body":"as a scrum master, cuz assuming you have"},{"startTime":2838.468,"endTime":2843.115,"body":"some kind of skill in whatever your ALM"},{"startTime":2838.468,"endTime":2843.115,"body":"tool is I would figure out a way for"},{"startTime":2843.115,"endTime":2849.385,"body":"the product team, like the coordinated"},{"startTime":2843.115,"endTime":2849.385,"body":"across all the product managers or product"},{"startTime":2849.385,"endTime":2850.375,"body":"owners, whatever you wanna call it."},{"startTime":2850.692,"endTime":2855.952,"body":"I figure out a way for their discovery"},{"startTime":2850.692,"endTime":2855.952,"body":"experiments to be documented and then"},{"startTime":2855.952,"endTime":2861.162,"body":"visualize somehow so that you can, when"},{"startTime":2855.952,"endTime":2861.162,"body":"you go in front of the leadership, you can"},{"startTime":2861.192,"endTime":2865.562,"body":"visualize there is, there's this amount"},{"startTime":2861.192,"endTime":2865.562,"body":"of work that has to happen to, to knock"},{"startTime":2865.562,"endTime":2869.742,"body":"down business risk before the development"},{"startTime":2865.562,"endTime":2869.742,"body":"team starts working on it and make that"},{"startTime":2869.742,"endTime":2872.202,"body":"become a normal part of discussions."},{"startTime":2872.472,"endTime":2876.616,"body":"When, when, when normally when software"},{"startTime":2872.472,"endTime":2876.616,"body":"development work is presented at a"},{"startTime":2876.616,"endTime":2879.481,"body":"leadership is presented like you know,"},{"startTime":2876.616,"endTime":2879.481,"body":"delivery map, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2879.481,"endTime":2880.621,"body":"A release map basically."},{"startTime":2880.621,"endTime":2880.831,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2881.101,"endTime":2884.274,"body":"We are in the X quarter we release"},{"startTime":2881.101,"endTime":2884.274,"body":"this release and now we're releasing"},{"startTime":2884.304,"endTime":2885.504,"body":"this with some release notes."},{"startTime":2885.825,"endTime":2890.574,"body":"Before you give them a release map,"},{"startTime":2885.825,"endTime":2890.574,"body":"show them the run up to to that"},{"startTime":2890.574,"endTime":2894.624,"body":"release map of these are things we"},{"startTime":2890.574,"endTime":2894.624,"body":"tried and it led to this release."},{"startTime":2894.654,"endTime":2894.984,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2895.344,"endTime":2895.554,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2895.594,"endTime":2898.114,"body":"a couple of things here that I"},{"startTime":2895.594,"endTime":2898.114,"body":"wanna say encourage something"},{"startTime":2898.114,"endTime":2902.909,"body":"like a a lab backlog where you"},{"startTime":2898.114,"endTime":2902.909,"body":"can try these experiments mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2903.409,"endTime":2908.209,"body":"when you go to leadership and say, Here's"},{"startTime":2903.409,"endTime":2908.209,"body":"where this is what we're gonna do and"},{"startTime":2908.209,"endTime":2910.039,"body":"here's why we tried all these things."},{"startTime":2910.539,"endTime":2911.649,"body":", there's two levels to it."},{"startTime":2911.654,"endTime":2915.999,"body":"First of all, at the experiment level,"},{"startTime":2911.654,"endTime":2915.999,"body":"it's absolutely a numbers thing."},{"startTime":2916.089,"endTime":2919.299,"body":"You know, you failed or you've"},{"startTime":2916.089,"endTime":2919.299,"body":"succeeded because of hard"},{"startTime":2919.299,"endTime":2920.709,"body":"numbers that underpin that."},{"startTime":2921.209,"endTime":2924.059,"body":"But when you go to leadership,"},{"startTime":2921.209,"endTime":2924.059,"body":"it isn't necessarily around that."},{"startTime":2924.064,"endTime":2927.659,"body":"It, it is around here are all"},{"startTime":2924.064,"endTime":2927.659,"body":"the alternatives we've tried."},{"startTime":2928.049,"endTime":2928.139,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2928.384,"endTime":2928.529,"body":", right?"},{"startTime":2928.529,"endTime":2933.299,"body":"And, and what we're now about to embark"},{"startTime":2928.529,"endTime":2933.299,"body":"upon is the best of the alternatives."},{"startTime":2933.719,"endTime":2936.709,"body":"Some of these fail, some of"},{"startTime":2933.719,"endTime":2936.709,"body":"these kind of sort of fail,"},{"startTime":2936.709,"endTime":2938.269,"body":"kind of, sort of didn't, right?"},{"startTime":2938.269,"endTime":2941.179,"body":"But these ones we think will give"},{"startTime":2938.269,"endTime":2941.179,"body":"us the best bang for the buck."},{"startTime":2941.679,"endTime":2947.759,"body":"So at that level, it isn't underpinned"},{"startTime":2941.679,"endTime":2947.759,"body":"by hard numbers necessarily, but they"},{"startTime":2947.764,"endTime":2951.209,"body":"take comfort in the fact that you've"},{"startTime":2947.764,"endTime":2951.209,"body":"tried various alternatives and you've"},{"startTime":2951.209,"endTime":2953.189,"body":"now chosen something that's grounded."},{"startTime":2953.689,"endTime":2957.469,"body":"Ruling out those possibilities"},{"startTime":2953.689,"endTime":2957.469,"body":"that that may not succeed."},{"startTime":2957.589,"endTime":2957.739,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2957.889,"endTime":2961.159,"body":"You know, so they're not looking for"},{"startTime":2957.889,"endTime":2961.159,"body":"while this alternative failed because"},{"startTime":2961.164,"endTime":2963.229,"body":"necessarily, So it's two different scales."},{"startTime":2963.229,"endTime":2965.839,"body":"One is hard numbers at"},{"startTime":2963.229,"endTime":2965.839,"body":"the experiment level."},{"startTime":2966.109,"endTime":2970.239,"body":"The other one is, is really just"},{"startTime":2966.109,"endTime":2970.239,"body":"more of a, okay, I'm satisfied."},{"startTime":2970.239,"endTime":2973.629,"body":"You've done the due diligence, you've"},{"startTime":2970.239,"endTime":2973.629,"body":"done, you've done the exploration, and"},{"startTime":2973.629,"endTime":2977.559,"body":"you're saying this is the right thing to"},{"startTime":2973.629,"endTime":2977.559,"body":"do based on what I've seen you've done."},{"startTime":2977.649,"endTime":2977.739,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2977.979,"endTime":2978.939,"body":", I'm gonna back that."},{"startTime":2978.939,"endTime":2979.119,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2979.419,"endTime":2979.749,"body":". Right?"},{"startTime":2980.049,"endTime":2981.159,"body":"So, bear that in mind."},{"startTime":2981.219,"endTime":2983.769,"body":"It's not always numbers,"},{"startTime":2981.219,"endTime":2983.769,"body":"it's not always gut feel."},{"startTime":2983.799,"endTime":2986.019,"body":"It's, you've gotta"},{"startTime":2983.799,"endTime":2986.019,"body":"position at where it is."},{"startTime":2986.019,"endTime":2989.276,"body":"But something like a a lab"},{"startTime":2986.019,"endTime":2989.276,"body":"backlog is a great idea across"},{"startTime":2989.276,"endTime":2991.076,"body":"all of the product line, Right?"},{"startTime":2991.076,"endTime":2996.086,"body":"Just make sure that people can buy into"},{"startTime":2991.076,"endTime":2996.086,"body":"it and say, If you do this, you may think"},{"startTime":2996.086,"endTime":2999.926,"body":"it's successful, but what does it mean"},{"startTime":2996.086,"endTime":2999.926,"body":"for this person over here, or for me"},{"startTime":3000.226,"endTime":3000.736,"body":"Who does this?"},{"startTime":3000.736,"endTime":3002.896,"body":"If you have no Scrum Masters,"},{"startTime":3000.736,"endTime":3002.896,"body":"your organization, It does."},{"startTime":3003.256,"endTime":3006.866,"body":"I know  as I'm asking it, I'm"},{"startTime":3003.256,"endTime":3006.866,"body":"like, Ooh, there's a good chance."},{"startTime":3006.866,"endTime":3009.536,"body":"This kind of stuff just doesn't"},{"startTime":3006.866,"endTime":3009.536,"body":"get talked about or done."},{"startTime":3009.536,"endTime":3013.616,"body":"If there's no scrum masters that your,"},{"startTime":3009.536,"endTime":3013.616,"body":"maybe your product people have a good."},{"startTime":3014.116,"endTime":3017.266,"body":"Have a really good empirical"},{"startTime":3014.116,"endTime":3017.266,"body":"process between them."},{"startTime":3017.266,"endTime":3021.322,"body":"And then they like Google, Go Google"},{"startTime":3017.266,"endTime":3021.322,"body":"they're very famous for there, there's a,"},{"startTime":3021.592,"endTime":3025.955,"body":"there's a famous YouTube thing with a or"},{"startTime":3021.592,"endTime":3025.955,"body":"it might be either a go-to or a TED talk."},{"startTime":3025.955,"endTime":3026.915,"body":"I can't remember what it is."},{"startTime":3027.245,"endTime":3031.358,"body":"I might find it actually if I'm not"},{"startTime":3027.245,"endTime":3031.358,"body":"super lazy and link it like last time,"},{"startTime":3031.478,"endTime":3033.308,"body":"last time I was like, I'll link this."},{"startTime":3033.398,"endTime":3034.208,"body":"And I'm like, Oh."},{"startTime":3034.208,"endTime":3036.848,"body":"Even when I was editing, I was"},{"startTime":3034.208,"endTime":3036.848,"body":"like, Oh God, do I have to?"},{"startTime":3037.168,"endTime":3039.937,"body":"I might find it and link it"},{"startTime":3037.168,"endTime":3039.937,"body":"where he's talking about Google"},{"startTime":3039.937,"endTime":3043.351,"body":"their their labs where they do"},{"startTime":3039.937,"endTime":3043.351,"body":"like discovery kind of stuff."},{"startTime":3043.356,"endTime":3043.521,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3043.621,"endTime":3044.521,"body":"like startup kind of stuff."},{"startTime":3044.921,"endTime":3048.609,"body":"They don't really like, they do"},{"startTime":3044.921,"endTime":3048.609,"body":"agile, but they're, they're, they"},{"startTime":3048.609,"endTime":3053.409,"body":"more do kaban where the entire team"},{"startTime":3048.609,"endTime":3053.409,"body":"is dedicated to one specific story."},{"startTime":3053.409,"endTime":3053.529,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3053.84,"endTime":3057.32,"body":".  and they work on it for two or three"},{"startTime":3053.84,"endTime":3057.32,"body":"days, and at the end of those two or"},{"startTime":3057.32,"endTime":3062.15,"body":"three days, they do a presentation of"},{"startTime":3057.32,"endTime":3062.15,"body":"what they learned or what they did to"},{"startTime":3062.18,"endTime":3063.74,"body":"the person that they're doing it for."},{"startTime":3063.8,"endTime":3063.95,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":3064.07,"endTime":3068.89,"body":"So, so basically they're doing like"},{"startTime":3064.07,"endTime":3068.89,"body":"the, the, like the extreme Dojo"},{"startTime":3068.895,"endTime":3071.89,"body":"version of Scrum con quirks, right?"},{"startTime":3071.89,"endTime":3072.34,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3072.52,"endTime":3075.82,"body":"Where they're all working, the whole"},{"startTime":3072.52,"endTime":3075.82,"body":"team is working on one single, So"},{"startTime":3076.0,"endTime":3078.31,"body":"the, the extremely focused version."},{"startTime":3078.34,"endTime":3081.58,"body":"And then of course, the Scrum"},{"startTime":3078.34,"endTime":3081.58,"body":"people will, will be like, Oh, they"},{"startTime":3081.58,"endTime":3083.02,"body":"don't, they're not doing Scrum."},{"startTime":3083.02,"endTime":3085.17,"body":"See, they don't have"},{"startTime":3083.02,"endTime":3085.17,"body":"a scrum master . Yeah."},{"startTime":3085.17,"endTime":3087.27,"body":"But they're, they're only"},{"startTime":3085.17,"endTime":3087.27,"body":"working on one single problem."},{"startTime":3087.27,"endTime":3088.53,"body":"They're completely dedicated, one problem."},{"startTime":3088.53,"endTime":3095.11,"body":"So I would argue they're doing the most"},{"startTime":3088.53,"endTime":3095.11,"body":"pure form of Scrum And also also Google"},{"startTime":3095.11,"endTime":3098.882,"body":"has Agile coaches on staff, so the point"},{"startTime":3095.11,"endTime":3098.882,"body":"of me bringing that up was, If you are"},{"startTime":3098.912,"endTime":3103.182,"body":"helping employees understand empirical"},{"startTime":3098.912,"endTime":3103.182,"body":"processes, you have organizations"},{"startTime":3103.182,"endTime":3105.492,"body":"like this that are purely empirical."},{"startTime":3105.492,"endTime":3108.709,"body":"They're only working on this problem"},{"startTime":3105.492,"endTime":3108.709,"body":"to see if they can figure out a way to"},{"startTime":3108.709,"endTime":3112.549,"body":"solve it, and then letting the customer"},{"startTime":3108.709,"endTime":3112.549,"body":"be the judge at the end of the three days"},{"startTime":3112.549,"endTime":3115.609,"body":"or whatever the hyperfocused period is."},{"startTime":3116.109,"endTime":3118.149,"body":"It's the shortest path, I think, right?"},{"startTime":3118.149,"endTime":3121.452,"body":"I mean, some of these organizations"},{"startTime":3118.149,"endTime":3121.452,"body":"also have, processes in place"},{"startTime":3121.452,"endTime":3124.602,"body":"where, let's say on a Friday the"},{"startTime":3121.452,"endTime":3124.602,"body":"team doesn't work on anything real."},{"startTime":3124.602,"endTime":3125.922,"body":"They just simply innovate."},{"startTime":3126.312,"endTime":3126.672,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":3126.912,"endTime":3127.242,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3127.242,"endTime":3134.57,"body":"And after a while, you, you get to, you"},{"startTime":3127.242,"endTime":3134.57,"body":"get to put your innovation up for a prize."},{"startTime":3134.575,"endTime":3134.8,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3134.93,"endTime":3136.76,"body":"And it's something substantial usually."},{"startTime":3137.03,"endTime":3141.89,"body":"So it all boils down to the tolerance,"},{"startTime":3137.03,"endTime":3141.89,"body":"the risk, tolerance of the organization."},{"startTime":3142.39,"endTime":3145.12,"body":"And in the past,  some time ago."},{"startTime":3145.12,"endTime":3148.09,"body":"Now, we used to say the"},{"startTime":3145.12,"endTime":3148.09,"body":"larger the organization, the"},{"startTime":3148.09,"endTime":3149.44,"body":"lower there is tolerance."},{"startTime":3149.62,"endTime":3153.22,"body":"It's direct correlation linearly"},{"startTime":3149.62,"endTime":3153.22,"body":"with the hierarchy, right?"},{"startTime":3153.25,"endTime":3153.37,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3153.87,"endTime":3155.37,"body":", but now that's not true anymore."},{"startTime":3155.37,"endTime":3155.73,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3155.815,"endTime":3159.99,"body":". So to your point, Google huge"},{"startTime":3155.815,"endTime":3159.99,"body":"organization in terms of people"},{"startTime":3159.99,"endTime":3162.87,"body":"at least, but they do all these"},{"startTime":3159.99,"endTime":3162.87,"body":"things that we just talked about."},{"startTime":3162.87,"endTime":3162.93,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3162.96,"endTime":3166.08,"body":"So I, I think that analogy"},{"startTime":3162.96,"endTime":3166.08,"body":"is broken down sometime ago."},{"startTime":3166.08,"endTime":3169.59,"body":"And it I've also seen the other side,"},{"startTime":3166.08,"endTime":3169.59,"body":"which is really sad, is some small"},{"startTime":3169.595,"endTime":3172.56,"body":"startups that they're great when"},{"startTime":3169.595,"endTime":3172.56,"body":"they're startups and then after a"},{"startTime":3172.56,"endTime":3176.4,"body":"little while suddenly they, they grow"},{"startTime":3172.56,"endTime":3176.4,"body":"to that critical point when they start"},{"startTime":3176.4,"endTime":3180.846,"body":"acquiring layers and hierarchy and all,"},{"startTime":3176.4,"endTime":3180.846,"body":"the whole thing breaks down because"},{"startTime":3180.846,"endTime":3182.706,"body":"they hire these people in these spots."},{"startTime":3183.006,"endTime":3185.046,"body":"But I think a scrum master,"},{"startTime":3183.006,"endTime":3185.046,"body":"this would bring us back."},{"startTime":3185.546,"endTime":3186.394,"body":"Back to the mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3186.474,"endTime":3190.004,"body":". The point here of, of encouraging"},{"startTime":3186.474,"endTime":3190.004,"body":"experimentation and empirical"},{"startTime":3190.004,"endTime":3192.013,"body":"approach, it's in the framing."},{"startTime":3192.133,"endTime":3192.583,"body":"It isn't."},{"startTime":3192.643,"endTime":3195.913,"body":"It isn't that we're just gonna try"},{"startTime":3192.643,"endTime":3195.913,"body":"something, it's, we're gonna try"},{"startTime":3195.918,"endTime":3198.253,"body":"something because we want to achieve this."},{"startTime":3198.373,"endTime":3199.753,"body":"This is our hypothesis."},{"startTime":3199.993,"endTime":3202.273,"body":"So either we're gonna prove"},{"startTime":3199.993,"endTime":3202.273,"body":"it, we're gonna disprove it."},{"startTime":3202.453,"endTime":3202.663,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":3202.668,"endTime":3205.693,"body":"If we disprove it, it's"},{"startTime":3202.668,"endTime":3205.693,"body":"not a slight on anyone."},{"startTime":3205.693,"endTime":3209.383,"body":"It's not a failure, it's"},{"startTime":3205.693,"endTime":3209.383,"body":"a learning opportunity."},{"startTime":3209.383,"endTime":3213.103,"body":"We've learned that that hypothesis was"},{"startTime":3209.383,"endTime":3213.103,"body":"invalid, but here's what we've learned."},{"startTime":3213.103,"endTime":3216.103,"body":"So, based upon what we've learned,"},{"startTime":3213.103,"endTime":3216.103,"body":"let's form a new hypothesis."},{"startTime":3216.103,"endTime":3216.373,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":3216.873,"endTime":3220.413,"body":"And I, And the other side, I wanna"},{"startTime":3216.873,"endTime":3220.413,"body":"say the last thing on this topic is"},{"startTime":3220.913,"endTime":3223.493,"body":"leadership need to encourage this."},{"startTime":3223.493,"endTime":3224.993,"body":"This is not the point of the podcast."},{"startTime":3224.993,"endTime":3227.693,"body":"It's more from the scrum master"},{"startTime":3224.993,"endTime":3227.693,"body":"point of view, but scrum asses"},{"startTime":3227.693,"endTime":3229.283,"body":"should be really learning."},{"startTime":3229.783,"endTime":3234.543,"body":"from not learning, from teaching, I guess"},{"startTime":3229.783,"endTime":3234.543,"body":"the, the organization to say, Please,"},{"startTime":3234.633,"endTime":3237.008,"body":"please encourage us let us innovate."},{"startTime":3237.068,"endTime":3237.158,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3237.488,"endTime":3237.758,"body":". Right."},{"startTime":3237.818,"endTime":3239.888,"body":"Don't just hold us the task on everything."},{"startTime":3239.888,"endTime":3241.418,"body":"Otherwise there's no room to innovate."},{"startTime":3241.478,"endTime":3241.538,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3241.568,"endTime":3242.348,"body":"We're stifling."},{"startTime":3242.378,"endTime":3244.298,"body":"Well, that's, that's the"},{"startTime":3242.378,"endTime":3244.298,"body":"first bull point here."},{"startTime":3244.298,"endTime":3244.988,"body":"Leading train."},{"startTime":3244.993,"endTime":3246.338,"body":"The organization is scrum adoption."},{"startTime":3246.338,"endTime":3250.11,"body":"I mean, I feel the issue with the lead"},{"startTime":3246.338,"endTime":3250.11,"body":"role is you should get asked from the"},{"startTime":3250.14,"endTime":3252.439,"body":"people above you and the people below you."},{"startTime":3252.444,"endTime":3253.999,"body":"I dunno, I don't have a better analogy."},{"startTime":3254.269,"endTime":3259.274,"body":"Like you're, you're subordinates"},{"startTime":3254.269,"endTime":3259.274,"body":"and your superiors you should"},{"startTime":3259.279,"endTime":3260.744,"body":"get asked from either direction."},{"startTime":3260.744,"endTime":3261.944,"body":"Like, Hey, I need this."},{"startTime":3262.241,"endTime":3263.771,"body":"I need you to do more of this."},{"startTime":3263.981,"endTime":3264.161,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":3264.161,"endTime":3264.341,"body":"You know?"},{"startTime":3264.841,"endTime":3270.171,"body":"And , if you were in an executive"},{"startTime":3264.841,"endTime":3270.171,"body":"role, And New York employees that"},{"startTime":3270.171,"endTime":3276.421,"body":"are under you are not asking, Hey,"},{"startTime":3270.171,"endTime":3276.421,"body":"we need you to do more of whatever."},{"startTime":3276.761,"endTime":3277.873,"body":"That's a failure on you."},{"startTime":3277.873,"endTime":3278.713,"body":"I'm gonna say, Yeah."},{"startTime":3278.713,"endTime":3280.633,"body":"I'm gonna say there,"},{"startTime":3278.713,"endTime":3280.633,"body":"there's a failure going on."},{"startTime":3280.633,"endTime":3284.351,"body":"And you need to kind of wake up and be"},{"startTime":3280.633,"endTime":3284.351,"body":"like, How come no one's coming to me?"},{"startTime":3284.351,"endTime":3284.871,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3284.956,"endTime":3289.242,"body":"and asking why I'm not doing"},{"startTime":3284.956,"endTime":3289.242,"body":"more of X, Y, Z is, is it maybe"},{"startTime":3289.242,"endTime":3292.062,"body":"because they're afraid of talking"},{"startTime":3289.242,"endTime":3292.062,"body":"to you and then that's a problem?"},{"startTime":3292.332,"endTime":3292.692,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":3292.697,"endTime":3296.712,"body":"So maybe you need a scrum master to say,"},{"startTime":3292.697,"endTime":3296.712,"body":"Hey, this is people's perception of you."},{"startTime":3296.862,"endTime":3298.722,"body":"Here's a little self-awareness, right?"},{"startTime":3298.842,"endTime":3302.652,"body":"Sprinkled into your life to maybe"},{"startTime":3298.842,"endTime":3302.652,"body":"help you move forward as a person."},{"startTime":3302.904,"endTime":3306.904,"body":"Again, this is why like when we, when"},{"startTime":3302.904,"endTime":3306.904,"body":"we, again, if we had recorded this"},{"startTime":3306.904,"endTime":3311.404,"body":"before and I threw it all out, what I"},{"startTime":3306.904,"endTime":3311.404,"body":"would've said on the recording was if"},{"startTime":3311.404,"endTime":3316.539,"body":"the scrum master was an HR position"},{"startTime":3311.404,"endTime":3316.539,"body":"and all the Scrum masters people will"},{"startTime":3316.539,"endTime":3320.169,"body":"immediately push back on that and"},{"startTime":3316.539,"endTime":3320.169,"body":"be like, Well, Scrum HR doesn't know"},{"startTime":3320.169,"endTime":3321.669,"body":"anything about software development."},{"startTime":3321.969,"endTime":3322.839,"body":"They can't know anything."},{"startTime":3322.839,"endTime":3327.639,"body":"They can't dare be part of if the"},{"startTime":3322.839,"endTime":3327.639,"body":"scrum master was aligned under hr."},{"startTime":3327.689,"endTime":3334.64,"body":"The HR scrum master to make sure all my"},{"startTime":3327.689,"endTime":3334.64,"body":"technical teams are working with each"},{"startTime":3334.64,"endTime":3338.6,"body":"other and have established some kind of"},{"startTime":3334.64,"endTime":3338.6,"body":"psychological safety in the organization."},{"startTime":3338.6,"endTime":3339.59,"body":"Cuz that's important."},{"startTime":3339.92,"endTime":3341.48,"body":"And they are all evol."},{"startTime":3341.51,"endTime":3347.035,"body":"They're, they are the HR delegated"},{"startTime":3341.51,"endTime":3347.035,"body":"individual ensured empowered with"},{"startTime":3347.11,"endTime":3354.227,"body":"making sure that every single person on"},{"startTime":3347.11,"endTime":3354.227,"body":"every single scrum team is learning and"},{"startTime":3354.232,"endTime":3356.087,"body":"evolving and being a better employee."},{"startTime":3356.097,"endTime":3356.707,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3356.787,"endTime":3357.81,"body":". And that's the scrum master."},{"startTime":3358.06,"endTime":3361.77,"body":"And, and it was never in the scrum guide"},{"startTime":3358.06,"endTime":3361.77,"body":"and it had nothing to do with development."},{"startTime":3361.841,"endTime":3363.611,"body":"Like we wouldn't be"},{"startTime":3361.841,"endTime":3363.611,"body":"having this conversation."},{"startTime":3363.701,"endTime":3363.971,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":3363.971,"endTime":3366.911,"body":"There wouldn't be a million people"},{"startTime":3363.971,"endTime":3366.911,"body":"on LinkedIn picking up, picking"},{"startTime":3367.121,"endTime":3370.061,"body":"at all this low hanging fruit"},{"startTime":3367.121,"endTime":3370.061,"body":"of like, well, I don't know."},{"startTime":3370.066,"endTime":3373.151,"body":"I think some part-time dude"},{"startTime":3370.066,"endTime":3373.151,"body":"on the street can do it you"},{"startTime":3373.151,"endTime":3375.581,"body":"know, for 50 cents or whatever."},{"startTime":3375.791,"endTime":3378.581,"body":"Like, there none of these conversations"},{"startTime":3375.791,"endTime":3378.581,"body":"would be happening cuz everyone"},{"startTime":3378.586,"endTime":3380.831,"body":"would say, Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":3380.831,"endTime":3381.131,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3381.131,"endTime":3381.281,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3381.281,"endTime":3384.131,"body":"I guess these are all, these"},{"startTime":3381.281,"endTime":3384.131,"body":"soft skills are HR skills."},{"startTime":3384.251,"endTime":3384.431,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3384.436,"endTime":3387.911,"body":"I would like to have somebody looking"},{"startTime":3384.436,"endTime":3387.911,"body":"out for me and my team rather than"},{"startTime":3387.911,"endTime":3389.321,"body":"looking out for the executives."},{"startTime":3389.651,"endTime":3390.041,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":3390.131,"endTime":3392.931,"body":"I, I would like that actually, it"},{"startTime":3390.131,"endTime":3392.931,"body":"would be very beneficial for me."},{"startTime":3392.991,"endTime":3398.041,"body":"You know, obviously people would have"},{"startTime":3392.991,"endTime":3398.041,"body":"a hard time cause it, the, the mis"},{"startTime":3398.131,"endTime":3401.821,"body":"distrust of HR is very deeply ingrained."},{"startTime":3402.309,"endTime":3406.449,"body":"But that part I felt was the,"},{"startTime":3402.309,"endTime":3406.449,"body":"the, the most concentrated like"},{"startTime":3406.971,"endTime":3409.761,"body":"For people who don't understand"},{"startTime":3406.971,"endTime":3409.761,"body":"what a scrum ER does all day."},{"startTime":3409.821,"endTime":3410.001,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3410.421,"endTime":3414.897,"body":"That that explanation is very"},{"startTime":3410.421,"endTime":3414.897,"body":"concentrated on, they, they do a lot"},{"startTime":3414.902,"endTime":3420.407,"body":"of stuff that HR does for the executive"},{"startTime":3414.902,"endTime":3420.407,"body":"team and HR does not do for your team."},{"startTime":3420.954,"endTime":3422.634,"body":"They do a lot of that stuff They do."},{"startTime":3422.634,"endTime":3425.904,"body":"So like enjoy it while you"},{"startTime":3422.634,"endTime":3425.904,"body":"have the advantage right."},{"startTime":3425.904,"endTime":3428.011,"body":"Of it and take advantage"},{"startTime":3425.904,"endTime":3428.011,"body":"of it take advantage of it."},{"startTime":3428.066,"endTime":3430.226,"body":"The last thing here, which I"},{"startTime":3428.066,"endTime":3430.226,"body":"don't wanna spend a bunch of time"},{"startTime":3430.226,"endTime":3434.216,"body":"on, is removing barriers between"},{"startTime":3430.226,"endTime":3434.216,"body":"stakeholders and Scrum teams."},{"startTime":3434.486,"endTime":3437.288,"body":"I don't wanna spend a bunch of time"},{"startTime":3434.486,"endTime":3437.288,"body":"on this one because I feel everyone"},{"startTime":3437.288,"endTime":3438.698,"body":"can kind of align on this quickly."},{"startTime":3438.698,"endTime":3440.198,"body":"Is there removing barriers?"},{"startTime":3440.203,"endTime":3444.908,"body":"Like you see silos, you see people"},{"startTime":3440.203,"endTime":3444.908,"body":"not talking to customers, you see"},{"startTime":3444.967,"endTime":3448.297,"body":"people operating in waterfall phases"},{"startTime":3444.967,"endTime":3448.297,"body":"that are just named something else."},{"startTime":3448.717,"endTime":3450.077,"body":"You gotta be knocking those down."},{"startTime":3450.327,"endTime":3450.597,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3450.597,"endTime":3453.277,"body":"And then you've gotta take"},{"startTime":3450.597,"endTime":3453.277,"body":"you've gotta take the opportunity"},{"startTime":3453.282,"endTime":3454.207,"body":"that's in front of you."},{"startTime":3454.212,"endTime":3454.537,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":3454.542,"endTime":3455.857,"body":"And, and not shy away from it."},{"startTime":3456.067,"endTime":3460.088,"body":"So my example there is, The pandemic"},{"startTime":3456.067,"endTime":3460.088,"body":"brought us new challenges and lot"},{"startTime":3460.088,"endTime":3463.898,"body":"of times I hear asses complain"},{"startTime":3460.088,"endTime":3463.898,"body":"going, ah, my team's offshore."},{"startTime":3463.898,"endTime":3465.578,"body":"It's really difficult to find time."},{"startTime":3465.886,"endTime":3466.816,"body":"All of that is true."},{"startTime":3466.846,"endTime":3469.786,"body":"You know, time zones are what"},{"startTime":3466.846,"endTime":3469.786,"body":"they are, so do the best you can."},{"startTime":3469.791,"endTime":3472.966,"body":"But then they say, Well our retros,"},{"startTime":3469.791,"endTime":3472.966,"body":"we used to be able to celebrate"},{"startTime":3472.966,"endTime":3476.116,"body":"together and we can't do that cuz"},{"startTime":3472.966,"endTime":3476.116,"body":"our teams are offshore thinking,"},{"startTime":3476.116,"endTime":3479.336,"body":"Well maybe send everybody's"},{"startTime":3476.116,"endTime":3479.336,"body":"little gift card, do something."},{"startTime":3479.336,"endTime":3479.426,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3479.786,"endTime":3481.316,"body":", well we're gonna have"},{"startTime":3479.786,"endTime":3481.316,"body":"budget for that, right?"},{"startTime":3481.321,"endTime":3486.226,"body":"So stand up for that and say, in"},{"startTime":3481.321,"endTime":3486.226,"body":"order to improve morale with our scrum"},{"startTime":3486.226,"endTime":3488.086,"body":"team, we need a little bit of budget."},{"startTime":3488.091,"endTime":3489.406,"body":"This is not that much money."},{"startTime":3489.466,"endTime":3489.826,"body":"Really."},{"startTime":3489.826,"endTime":3491.626,"body":"$25 gift cards for everybody."},{"startTime":3491.806,"endTime":3492.556,"body":"Once in a while."},{"startTime":3492.556,"endTime":3494.026,"body":"It doesn't have have to be every sprint."},{"startTime":3494.031,"endTime":3494.246,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":3494.733,"endTime":3498.723,"body":"You know, there are organizations that"},{"startTime":3494.733,"endTime":3498.723,"body":"will deliver food at the same time across"},{"startTime":3498.723,"endTime":3500.163,"body":"the globe, so take advantage of that."},{"startTime":3500.163,"endTime":3503.049,"body":"That's a little bit more money,"},{"startTime":3500.163,"endTime":3503.049,"body":"but so do that every release"},{"startTime":3503.054,"endTime":3503.979,"body":"or something, I don't know."},{"startTime":3504.094,"endTime":3506.854,"body":"You know, if you're into those kinds of"},{"startTime":3504.094,"endTime":3506.854,"body":"type, come on base, come, come on, man."},{"startTime":3506.854,"endTime":3509.644,"body":"You can't, you can't climb in the"},{"startTime":3506.854,"endTime":3509.644,"body":"organization, go to the CFO and be"},{"startTime":3509.644,"endTime":3511.594,"body":"like, Hey man, can I get point, point?"},{"startTime":3511.894,"endTime":3515.914,"body":"1% of the revenue this"},{"startTime":3511.894,"endTime":3515.914,"body":"team brings in to wait."},{"startTime":3515.914,"endTime":3517.114,"body":"One's a huge amount."},{"startTime":3517.114,"endTime":3518.014,"body":"He ain't gonna spare that."},{"startTime":3518.314,"endTime":3519.804,"body":"Like, what can I get then?"},{"startTime":3519.894,"endTime":3522.504,"body":"Half of a half of a half of a percent."},{"startTime":3522.654,"endTime":3526.554,"body":"I need a thousand dollars"},{"startTime":3522.654,"endTime":3526.554,"body":"0.005 of a percent."},{"startTime":3526.554,"endTime":3531.554,"body":"Again, I'm starting from the used car a"},{"startTime":3526.554,"endTime":3531.554,"body":"lot sales mentality of  I'm gonna step"},{"startTime":3531.554,"endTime":3535.028,"body":"in and say hey, I want that car for"},{"startTime":3531.554,"endTime":3535.028,"body":"$10,000 and the used car salesman is"},{"startTime":3535.028,"endTime":3536.888,"body":"gonna be like, That's a ridiculous amount."},{"startTime":3537.068,"endTime":3539.288,"body":"I can't give you that car for $10,000."},{"startTime":3539.293,"endTime":3541.958,"body":"That's when you say, That's"},{"startTime":3539.293,"endTime":3541.958,"body":"else, That's a $30,000 car."},{"startTime":3541.958,"endTime":3546.128,"body":"And then you'll say, Hmm, $30,000 car,"},{"startTime":3541.958,"endTime":3546.128,"body":"It smells like 20,000 or whatever."},{"startTime":3546.128,"endTime":3547.118,"body":"And you'll negotiate from there."},{"startTime":3547.238,"endTime":3549.548,"body":"The point is, you are doing something."},{"startTime":3549.968,"endTime":3550.448,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":3550.658,"endTime":3551.738,"body":"You're trying something."},{"startTime":3551.828,"endTime":3553.368,"body":"You're highlighting the"},{"startTime":3551.828,"endTime":3553.368,"body":"fact that might walk away."},{"startTime":3553.373,"endTime":3555.338,"body":"Scrum master needs to negotiate now."},{"startTime":3555.788,"endTime":3555.938,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":3555.938,"endTime":3556.358,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3556.363,"endTime":3556.968,"body":"That is something that is."},{"startTime":3557.283,"endTime":3559.373,"body":"Definitely under removing barriers."},{"startTime":3559.373,"endTime":3562.763,"body":"That's, it's a barrier that you don't have"},{"startTime":3559.373,"endTime":3562.763,"body":"this little bit of a budget that you need."},{"startTime":3562.793,"endTime":3565.613,"body":"So, if the scrum master is not gonna"},{"startTime":3562.793,"endTime":3565.613,"body":"do this, or if the organization"},{"startTime":3565.613,"endTime":3569.123,"body":"won't hire a scrum master, who"},{"startTime":3565.613,"endTime":3569.123,"body":"else's role is removing barriers"},{"startTime":3569.123,"endTime":3570.773,"body":"between stakeholders and Scrum teams?"},{"startTime":3571.087,"endTime":3574.647,"body":"There is nobody that I can think"},{"startTime":3571.087,"endTime":3574.647,"body":"of in this, in this instance."},{"startTime":3574.797,"endTime":3575.547,"body":"There is nobody."},{"startTime":3576.047,"endTime":3577.427,"body":"They're just gonna say,"},{"startTime":3576.047,"endTime":3577.427,"body":"Don't they get paid?"},{"startTime":3577.927,"endTime":3579.097,"body":"Just throw my work at 'em."},{"startTime":3579.597,"endTime":3580.107,"body":"That's what they'll do."},{"startTime":3580.107,"endTime":3581.907,"body":"Well, thank you for coming this podcast,"}]}