{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.049,"endTime":3.43,"body":"Listen, Om, we really want to do"},{"startTime":0.049,"endTime":3.43,"body":"this agile thing, but , we tried it"},{"startTime":3.43,"endTime":4.719,"body":"before and Agile doesn't work here."},{"startTime":5.059,"endTime":5.96,"body":"Agile doesn't work."},{"startTime":5.96,"endTime":10.0,"body":"Here is one of the most common"},{"startTime":5.96,"endTime":10.0,"body":"things I hear from organizations"},{"startTime":10.0,"endTime":15.48,"body":"that are struggling with Agile in"},{"startTime":10.0,"endTime":15.48,"body":"some way, shape, or form, right?"},{"startTime":15.48,"endTime":20.81,"body":"So that's the first thing is, oh yeah,"},{"startTime":15.48,"endTime":20.81,"body":"welcome what are you, what are you saying?"},{"startTime":20.815,"endTime":21.89,"body":"We should be doing Agile."},{"startTime":21.92,"endTime":23.72,"body":"Oh, no, no, no, that doesn't work here."},{"startTime":23.725,"endTime":26.92,"body":"We tried that, We tried that Agile"},{"startTime":23.725,"endTime":26.92,"body":"thing here a couple of years ago."},{"startTime":26.92,"endTime":27.64,"body":"It doesn't work."},{"startTime":28.14,"endTime":34.23,"body":"When you dig deeper you find out that when"},{"startTime":28.14,"endTime":34.23,"body":"they say it doesn't work there and you,"},{"startTime":34.23,"endTime":40.599,"body":"and you ask the question well what have"},{"startTime":34.23,"endTime":40.599,"body":"you actually done before just asking to"},{"startTime":40.599,"endTime":46.819,"body":"find out and , it turns out that they,"},{"startTime":40.599,"endTime":46.819,"body":"they say they've adopted some theoretical"},{"startTime":47.319,"endTime":51.269,"body":"practices adoption of agile events."},{"startTime":51.769,"endTime":53.719,"body":"And they say it doesn't work for them."},{"startTime":53.899,"endTime":59.149,"body":"So for example, , the most common thing I"},{"startTime":53.899,"endTime":59.149,"body":"hear is our teams are on two week sprints."},{"startTime":59.649,"endTime":62.169,"body":"We've been on two-week sprints"},{"startTime":59.649,"endTime":62.169,"body":"for a while, not seeing any"},{"startTime":62.174,"endTime":63.719,"body":"value out of that, right?"},{"startTime":63.779,"endTime":66.509,"body":"We're not seeing these milestones"},{"startTime":63.779,"endTime":66.509,"body":"met on our Gantt charts."},{"startTime":66.509,"endTime":68.459,"body":"We thought we might and we're not."},{"startTime":68.959,"endTime":72.109,"body":"So it doesn't work here that that's"},{"startTime":68.959,"endTime":72.109,"body":"the most common thing we see."},{"startTime":72.169,"endTime":72.259,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":72.619,"endTime":78.773,"body":"The other thing we see is, , the teams"},{"startTime":72.619,"endTime":78.773,"body":"say that they are delivering every sprint"},{"startTime":79.273,"endTime":81.193,"body":"exactly what they, what they commit to."},{"startTime":81.263,"endTime":81.663,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":81.743,"endTime":84.873,"body":"and yet, The customers are not happy."},{"startTime":85.233,"endTime":87.993,"body":"The recipients of the"},{"startTime":85.233,"endTime":87.993,"body":"products are not happy."},{"startTime":88.163,"endTime":92.168,"body":"Those are the two things that I"},{"startTime":88.163,"endTime":92.168,"body":"see all the time when organizations"},{"startTime":92.168,"endTime":94.258,"body":"say Agile doesn't work for us,"},{"startTime":94.758,"endTime":99.948,"body":"so they must be really special because"},{"startTime":94.758,"endTime":99.948,"body":"it, it doesn't work for them, but"},{"startTime":99.978,"endTime":103.368,"body":"it works for a lot of people, by"},{"startTime":99.978,"endTime":103.368,"body":"the way, including some of their"},{"startTime":103.368,"endTime":105.488,"body":"competitors, it works for them just fine."},{"startTime":105.488,"endTime":109.478,"body":"They're in the same competitive arena"},{"startTime":105.488,"endTime":109.478,"body":"that you are in and yet it works for them."},{"startTime":109.808,"endTime":111.158,"body":"Why doesn't it work for you?"},{"startTime":111.488,"endTime":114.038,"body":"What's it mean when they say"},{"startTime":111.488,"endTime":114.038,"body":"it doesn't work for them?"},{"startTime":114.098,"endTime":115.208,"body":"Let's go there first"},{"startTime":115.247,"endTime":117.187,"body":"You started with two"},{"startTime":115.247,"endTime":117.187,"body":"scenarios, which is, I."},{"startTime":117.677,"endTime":121.247,"body":"I am on two week Experie Sprint"},{"startTime":117.677,"endTime":121.247,"body":"and I see no benefit from it"},{"startTime":121.667,"endTime":123.467,"body":"and my customers are not happy."},{"startTime":123.857,"endTime":124.097,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":124.147,"endTime":125.947,"body":"Two separate completely"},{"startTime":124.147,"endTime":125.947,"body":"separate statements."},{"startTime":125.987,"endTime":128.717,"body":"Telling me that you have"},{"startTime":125.987,"endTime":128.717,"body":"adopted agile practices and that"},{"startTime":128.717,"endTime":129.917,"body":"your customers are not happy."},{"startTime":130.417,"endTime":134.037,"body":"I would definitely wanna dig into that"},{"startTime":130.417,"endTime":134.037,"body":"first, because Agile in its purest form"},{"startTime":134.247,"endTime":137.617,"body":"should be talk directly to the customer."},{"startTime":138.117,"endTime":139.437,"body":"The team is doing the work."},{"startTime":139.937,"endTime":143.857,"body":"Figure out what the customer wants,"},{"startTime":139.937,"endTime":143.857,"body":"go off and do that for a couple days"},{"startTime":143.857,"endTime":148.407,"body":"and come back to the customer and"},{"startTime":143.857,"endTime":148.407,"body":"then adjust based on what the customer"},{"startTime":148.737,"endTime":150.297,"body":"says about the work that you've done."},{"startTime":150.427,"endTime":156.647,"body":"When you say we're the customers are"},{"startTime":150.427,"endTime":156.647,"body":"not happy, it makes me think that you're"},{"startTime":156.647,"endTime":162.617,"body":"doing Agile, but you've put a firewall"},{"startTime":156.647,"endTime":162.617,"body":"in between your teams and the customers."},{"startTime":162.827,"endTime":165.707,"body":"You're doing Agile, but the"},{"startTime":162.827,"endTime":165.707,"body":"customers don't get to weigh in."},{"startTime":165.707,"endTime":169.427,"body":"But once every, I don't"},{"startTime":165.707,"endTime":169.427,"body":"know, quarter, right?"},{"startTime":169.717,"endTime":170.587,"body":"Once a year."},{"startTime":170.592,"endTime":175.627,"body":"When you have conferences, I'm ready"},{"startTime":170.592,"endTime":175.627,"body":"to, to question to, to lightly question,"},{"startTime":175.687,"endTime":179.767,"body":"lightly question gently problem with,"},{"startTime":175.687,"endTime":179.767,"body":"with a white glove question your methods."},{"startTime":180.267,"endTime":185.457,"body":"so I just wanna go back to the first"},{"startTime":180.267,"endTime":185.457,"body":"thing you said, which is the customers are"},{"startTime":185.457,"endTime":190.317,"body":"not happy and, and are they seeing what"},{"startTime":185.457,"endTime":190.317,"body":"they need to see every so often, right."},{"startTime":190.557,"endTime":193.517,"body":"Or are they only engaged once in a while?"},{"startTime":193.517,"endTime":193.727,"body":"That's,"},{"startTime":193.732,"endTime":197.427,"body":"it's one of the anti patterns I"},{"startTime":193.732,"endTime":197.427,"body":"see as they say, Well the teams"},{"startTime":197.427,"endTime":201.417,"body":"are doing good, but our products"},{"startTime":197.427,"endTime":201.417,"body":"aren't really that polished and we"},{"startTime":201.417,"endTime":204.597,"body":"really don't wanna expose our dirty"},{"startTime":201.417,"endTime":204.597,"body":"laundry in front of the customers."},{"startTime":204.602,"endTime":204.637,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":205.017,"endTime":210.467,"body":"So we, they're not invited to our demos"},{"startTime":205.017,"endTime":210.467,"body":"because we don't wanna demo this stuff."},{"startTime":210.472,"endTime":211.907,"body":"It's just not polished yet."},{"startTime":211.967,"endTime":212.147,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":212.387,"endTime":216.707,"body":"You know, and so they keep doing this"},{"startTime":212.387,"endTime":216.707,"body":"stuff, sprinting, sprint out until"},{"startTime":216.707,"endTime":218.117,"body":"at some point when the customer."},{"startTime":218.617,"endTime":219.427,"body":", what do you have for me?"},{"startTime":219.927,"endTime":221.037,"body":", I've been waiting patiently."},{"startTime":221.037,"endTime":221.127,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":221.457,"endTime":224.967,"body":", they look at it and that's when they"},{"startTime":221.457,"endTime":224.967,"body":"say, jeez, this isn't what we want."},{"startTime":225.267,"endTime":225.447,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":225.692,"endTime":225.777,"body":", Right?"},{"startTime":225.777,"endTime":227.307,"body":"Because many sprints have gone by."},{"startTime":227.312,"endTime":228.987,"body":"Now it's too late to quickly pivot."},{"startTime":229.127,"endTime":234.407,"body":"organizations that do that typically"},{"startTime":229.127,"endTime":234.407,"body":"are the ones that are smarting from"},{"startTime":234.412,"endTime":238.137,"body":"this whole experience and they say,"},{"startTime":234.412,"endTime":238.137,"body":"Ah, I see we tried it, we tried agile."},{"startTime":238.137,"endTime":238.727,"body":"It doesn't work for us."},{"startTime":238.757,"endTime":240.257,"body":"You really, really tried."},{"startTime":240.527,"endTime":247.797,"body":"So I think that that line, you didn't"},{"startTime":240.527,"endTime":247.797,"body":"really try to be agile is pervasive."},{"startTime":247.797,"endTime":251.757,"body":"Among everybody that I've come across"},{"startTime":247.797,"endTime":251.757,"body":"that says Agile doesn't work here."},{"startTime":252.257,"endTime":252.977,"body":"They didn't."},{"startTime":253.397,"endTime":256.817,"body":"They say, Well, we tried it a year ago,"},{"startTime":253.397,"endTime":256.817,"body":"two years ago, it didn't work for us."},{"startTime":256.967,"endTime":259.007,"body":"And I dig into it and"},{"startTime":256.967,"endTime":259.007,"body":"say, What did you try?"},{"startTime":259.007,"endTime":262.387,"body":"And they say, Well our teams"},{"startTime":259.007,"endTime":262.387,"body":"are doing two week sprints."},{"startTime":262.597,"endTime":266.927,"body":"Well, who was really kind of"},{"startTime":262.597,"endTime":266.927,"body":"feeding into your backlog?"},{"startTime":266.982,"endTime":269.232,"body":"Who was looking after"},{"startTime":266.982,"endTime":269.232,"body":"the customer's interest?"},{"startTime":269.732,"endTime":271.622,"body":"I find there's huge gaps usually there."},{"startTime":272.012,"endTime":274.742,"body":"The customer's not even"},{"startTime":272.012,"endTime":274.742,"body":"involved in this big picture."},{"startTime":274.802,"endTime":275.852,"body":"In many cases."},{"startTime":276.152,"endTime":278.462,"body":"In many cases it's internal people."},{"startTime":278.922,"endTime":284.962,"body":", just, just basically trying to"},{"startTime":278.922,"endTime":284.962,"body":"make sure that their turf, if"},{"startTime":285.022,"endTime":286.492,"body":"you will, is protected, right?"},{"startTime":286.702,"endTime":289.742,"body":"And , you get this, it's not me."},{"startTime":289.832,"endTime":290.282,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":290.522,"endTime":291.182,"body":"It's not me."},{"startTime":291.212,"endTime":292.622,"body":"Cuz look, I've got a backlog."},{"startTime":292.772,"endTime":294.242,"body":"That's all I'm responsible for."},{"startTime":294.247,"endTime":294.662,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":294.667,"endTime":298.442,"body":"The dev teams go, Well, we're just"},{"startTime":294.667,"endTime":298.442,"body":"popping off the top of the stack, right?"},{"startTime":298.447,"endTime":302.012,"body":"For the backlog the poor customer"},{"startTime":298.447,"endTime":302.012,"body":"says we're not seeing anything."},{"startTime":302.042,"endTime":305.462,"body":"And then the organization or the"},{"startTime":302.042,"endTime":305.462,"body":"leadership says, We tried Agile."},{"startTime":305.612,"endTime":307.202,"body":"You really didn't try Agile."},{"startTime":307.262,"endTime":307.412,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":307.742,"endTime":311.642,"body":"And, and so don't say it doesn't"},{"startTime":307.742,"endTime":311.642,"body":"work for you cuz you didn't do it,"},{"startTime":311.762,"endTime":316.372,"body":"I don't see a way to talk about keeping"},{"startTime":311.762,"endTime":316.372,"body":"the customer out of the conversation or"},{"startTime":316.422,"endTime":320.442,"body":"not showing the customer our process while"},{"startTime":316.422,"endTime":320.442,"body":"the, the, the tables all dirty cuz we got"},{"startTime":320.442,"endTime":323.172,"body":"stuff all over the place and we haven't"},{"startTime":320.442,"endTime":323.172,"body":"arranged things properly or whatever."},{"startTime":323.672,"endTime":329.292,"body":"Other than either ego or fear"},{"startTime":323.672,"endTime":329.292,"body":"of  not projecting that we have"},{"startTime":329.292,"endTime":331.842,"body":"all of our business together and"},{"startTime":329.292,"endTime":331.842,"body":"everything in the right places."},{"startTime":331.842,"endTime":335.462,"body":"You know,  projecting that we are perfect"},{"startTime":331.842,"endTime":335.462,"body":"and we got everything going, You know?"},{"startTime":335.962,"endTime":338.752,"body":"So I don't know if those is the same"},{"startTime":335.962,"endTime":338.752,"body":"thing or they're actually are different."},{"startTime":338.757,"endTime":343.407,"body":"I'm really not sure at this point but"},{"startTime":338.757,"endTime":343.407,"body":"most of the places that I've been, that,"},{"startTime":343.407,"endTime":347.767,"body":"that, that say, Wow you can't, you can't"},{"startTime":343.407,"endTime":347.767,"body":"put these developers in front of the"},{"startTime":347.767,"endTime":351.937,"body":"customer because they might they might"},{"startTime":347.767,"endTime":351.937,"body":"not be able to give a polished performance"},{"startTime":351.942,"endTime":355.447,"body":"and then they might even not be able"},{"startTime":351.942,"endTime":355.447,"body":"to answer all their business questions."},{"startTime":355.447,"endTime":356.727,"body":"Well, where in the future."},{"startTime":356.732,"endTime":358.077,"body":"This is gonna be, or whatever."},{"startTime":358.077,"endTime":359.517,"body":"I'm like that."},{"startTime":359.637,"endTime":362.507,"body":"I mean, unless you're dealing with some"},{"startTime":359.637,"endTime":362.507,"body":"kind of aliens or robots or whatever."},{"startTime":362.507,"endTime":364.787,"body":"Like, it's just people"},{"startTime":362.507,"endTime":364.787,"body":"dealing with people."},{"startTime":365.287,"endTime":369.067,"body":"So the most, the best thing we could"},{"startTime":365.287,"endTime":369.067,"body":"do is answer their questions honestly."},{"startTime":369.067,"endTime":372.157,"body":"And if we don't know, or, or if we"},{"startTime":369.067,"endTime":372.157,"body":"haven't thought about something,"},{"startTime":372.517,"endTime":373.507,"body":"just say that we don't know."},{"startTime":373.507,"endTime":374.437,"body":"We haven't thought about it."},{"startTime":374.442,"endTime":374.677,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":374.727,"endTime":377.457,"body":"On one hand, , I want to"},{"startTime":374.727,"endTime":377.457,"body":"attribute it to people's egos."},{"startTime":377.457,"endTime":381.087,"body":"Like, especially when, Oh, they might"},{"startTime":377.457,"endTime":381.087,"body":"make me look bad in front of a customer."},{"startTime":381.087,"endTime":384.747,"body":"Or the customer might not think the"},{"startTime":381.087,"endTime":384.747,"body":"customer might communicate with somebody"},{"startTime":384.752,"endTime":386.457,"body":"else in the company or whatever."},{"startTime":386.697,"endTime":391.377,"body":"And I'm afraid that I usually saying"},{"startTime":386.697,"endTime":391.377,"body":"I meaning somebody in some sort of"},{"startTime":391.727,"endTime":396.437,"body":"supervisory role, referred to as someone"},{"startTime":391.727,"endTime":396.437,"body":"who maybe isn't projecting the vision"},{"startTime":396.437,"endTime":399.677,"body":"or maybe the whose people don't really"},{"startTime":396.437,"endTime":399.677,"body":"know what they're talking about or"},{"startTime":399.677,"endTime":401.777,"body":"whatever, and then somehow reflect on me."},{"startTime":402.167,"endTime":407.277,"body":"So again, there is some sort of"},{"startTime":402.167,"endTime":407.277,"body":"ego career move, ego consideration."},{"startTime":407.277,"endTime":411.367,"body":"Yeah that's behind this keep customers"},{"startTime":407.277,"endTime":411.367,"body":"away from x, y, Z team or whatever."},{"startTime":411.797,"endTime":415.313,"body":"The other side of this is I have"},{"startTime":411.797,"endTime":415.313,"body":"to think, ever since we did the"},{"startTime":415.318,"endTime":418.693,"body":"podcast on the John Cutter's leading"},{"startTime":415.318,"endTime":418.693,"body":"change, when Curtis was here, we did"},{"startTime":418.693,"endTime":423.413,"body":"a podcast on leading change the book"},{"startTime":418.693,"endTime":423.413,"body":"and one of the things he references"},{"startTime":423.413,"endTime":429.618,"body":"in leading change is the vision, that"},{"startTime":423.413,"endTime":429.618,"body":"is being pushed by the executives."},{"startTime":430.038,"endTime":433.668,"body":"It needs to be broadcasted out through"},{"startTime":430.038,"endTime":433.668,"body":"every layer of the organization."},{"startTime":433.668,"endTime":438.848,"body":"Every time the executives bring up"},{"startTime":433.668,"endTime":438.848,"body":"how the work ties back to the vision,"},{"startTime":439.178,"endTime":440.648,"body":"they need to be quoting the vision."},{"startTime":440.648,"endTime":441.878,"body":"They need to be referencing the vision."},{"startTime":441.878,"endTime":443.228,"body":"They need to be talking about the vision."},{"startTime":443.228,"endTime":447.038,"body":"They need to be basically repeating"},{"startTime":443.228,"endTime":447.038,"body":"the vision over and over and"},{"startTime":447.038,"endTime":450.728,"body":"over and over again, so that"},{"startTime":447.038,"endTime":450.728,"body":"everybody in a whole company is"},{"startTime":450.728,"endTime":453.068,"body":"on the same page with that vision."},{"startTime":453.068,"endTime":456.148,"body":"So I wanna blame leadership and say"},{"startTime":453.068,"endTime":456.148,"body":"part of it's just weak leadership"},{"startTime":456.148,"endTime":458.308,"body":"with egos and people who really"},{"startTime":456.148,"endTime":458.308,"body":"shouldn't be in that position."},{"startTime":458.388,"endTime":463.583,"body":"However, some of it is the strategy level"},{"startTime":458.388,"endTime":463.583,"body":"that should be coming from executives."},{"startTime":463.898,"endTime":468.378,"body":"Just is not present and people truly"},{"startTime":463.898,"endTime":468.378,"body":"are if, if different teams seem to"},{"startTime":468.378,"endTime":473.678,"body":"be running at their own speed, it"},{"startTime":468.378,"endTime":473.678,"body":"could be that, it could be, Hey, agile"},{"startTime":473.678,"endTime":478.608,"body":"doesn't work here because agile, which"},{"startTime":473.678,"endTime":478.608,"body":"normally should thrive in chaos, doesn't"},{"startTime":478.608,"endTime":480.778,"body":"work because we change directions."},{"startTime":480.778,"endTime":486.023,"body":"So frequently or, or so much"},{"startTime":480.778,"endTime":486.023,"body":"is, is, is in a state of change."},{"startTime":486.293,"endTime":486.993,"body":"Yeah yeah."},{"startTime":487.143,"endTime":489.183,"body":"That, it's the irony"},{"startTime":487.143,"endTime":489.183,"body":"of that though, right?"},{"startTime":489.423,"endTime":490.983,"body":"That's exactly why you need agile."},{"startTime":491.133,"endTime":494.373,"body":"Except we welcome changing requirements."},{"startTime":494.828,"endTime":497.978,"body":"The issue here is not changing"},{"startTime":494.828,"endTime":497.978,"body":"requirements that benefit the customer."},{"startTime":497.978,"endTime":501.428,"body":"The issue here is that the"},{"startTime":497.978,"endTime":501.428,"body":"management layer of the organization."},{"startTime":501.458,"endTime":501.578,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":502.078,"endTime":507.658,"body":"Constantly changing their mind and kind of"},{"startTime":502.078,"endTime":507.658,"body":"battling between each other and, wasting"},{"startTime":507.658,"endTime":509.098,"body":"a lot of time building the wrong things."},{"startTime":509.098,"endTime":511.443,"body":"Cuz they, cuz the, the"},{"startTime":509.098,"endTime":511.443,"body":"viewpoint of the customer is not"},{"startTime":511.443,"endTime":513.033,"body":"promoted as the first priority."},{"startTime":513.163,"endTime":514.123,"body":"I think that's right."},{"startTime":514.128,"endTime":518.713,"body":"And you know, I think sometimes,"},{"startTime":514.128,"endTime":518.713,"body":"quite often in fact leadership"},{"startTime":518.923,"endTime":521.763,"body":"are gunshy of failure."},{"startTime":521.943,"endTime":522.243,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":522.243,"endTime":526.463,"body":"The fear of fear of failure,"},{"startTime":522.243,"endTime":526.463,"body":"so, They do communicate with the"},{"startTime":526.463,"endTime":528.383,"body":"customer that we're gonna be agile."},{"startTime":528.383,"endTime":528.743,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":528.823,"endTime":530.453,"body":", we're gonna be responsive to your needs."},{"startTime":530.603,"endTime":530.903,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":530.903,"endTime":535.603,"body":"And we'll be emergent, Okay, we'll"},{"startTime":530.903,"endTime":535.603,"body":"do all of these things except they"},{"startTime":535.603,"endTime":537.523,"body":"are not really sure how to do this."},{"startTime":537.528,"endTime":539.833,"body":"Because again, they, we've"},{"startTime":537.528,"endTime":539.833,"body":"talked about this before."},{"startTime":540.103,"endTime":543.223,"body":"They didn't get into their"},{"startTime":540.103,"endTime":543.223,"body":"positions by becoming agile."},{"startTime":543.223,"endTime":543.463,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":543.463,"endTime":546.823,"body":"They got into their positions over the"},{"startTime":543.463,"endTime":546.823,"body":"years or by failing, following a plan."},{"startTime":547.093,"endTime":547.213,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":547.213,"endTime":548.113,"body":"And Exactly Right."},{"startTime":548.113,"endTime":549.433,"body":"Not failing and all of that."},{"startTime":549.433,"endTime":549.733,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":550.033,"endTime":551.353,"body":"Supposedly not failing."},{"startTime":551.653,"endTime":555.963,"body":"So when, when teams say,"},{"startTime":551.653,"endTime":555.963,"body":"Hey, look, we need to pivot."},{"startTime":556.023,"endTime":557.013,"body":"And they go, No, no, no."},{"startTime":557.013,"endTime":559.473,"body":"I've already communicated"},{"startTime":557.013,"endTime":559.473,"body":"X, y, Z to the customer."},{"startTime":559.473,"endTime":560.163,"body":"You can't pivot."},{"startTime":560.168,"endTime":560.503,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":560.703,"endTime":561.063,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":561.333,"endTime":567.973,"body":"So part of that is that inner inbuilt"},{"startTime":561.333,"endTime":567.973,"body":"organizational inertia that kind of gets"},{"startTime":567.973,"endTime":571.083,"body":"in the way of agile quote unquote working."},{"startTime":571.583,"endTime":574.783,"body":"The other part of it is, and this"},{"startTime":571.583,"endTime":574.783,"body":"is I think significant as well,"},{"startTime":574.813,"endTime":577.293,"body":"is the focus on the wrong things."},{"startTime":577.343,"endTime":582.333,"body":"Meaning that when they adopt"},{"startTime":577.343,"endTime":582.333,"body":"agile,  according to their own"},{"startTime":582.333,"endTime":583.833,"body":"definition, however they're doing it."},{"startTime":583.863,"endTime":584.283,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":584.283,"endTime":585.693,"body":"The teams are now on two experience."},{"startTime":585.693,"endTime":590.413,"body":"Whatever they're doing the metrics"},{"startTime":585.693,"endTime":590.413,"body":"that they use to assess whether"},{"startTime":590.413,"endTime":595.553,"body":"that shift is working for them"},{"startTime":590.413,"endTime":595.553,"body":"or not, it's often cast in this,"},{"startTime":595.553,"endTime":598.733,"body":"this shroud of self-belief, right?"},{"startTime":599.123,"endTime":602.983,"body":"Oh, if we just say the teams will"},{"startTime":599.123,"endTime":602.983,"body":"increase the velocity in our agility"},{"startTime":602.983,"endTime":604.783,"body":"is working, that kind of thing."},{"startTime":605.113,"endTime":607.483,"body":"So the focus is on that sort of thing."},{"startTime":607.488,"endTime":614.263,"body":"Mechanical metrics like increase"},{"startTime":607.488,"endTime":614.263,"body":"velocity, increase speed of delivery,"},{"startTime":614.263,"endTime":617.953,"body":"but are you delivering the right"},{"startTime":614.263,"endTime":617.953,"body":"thing as opposed to just delivering"},{"startTime":617.953,"endTime":623.013,"body":"things and, and not involving the"},{"startTime":617.953,"endTime":623.013,"body":"customer's voice right up front."},{"startTime":623.223,"endTime":626.193,"body":"So show them something at the end"},{"startTime":623.223,"endTime":626.193,"body":"and say, Is this what you want?"},{"startTime":626.693,"endTime":629.993,"body":"and they say no, and they come"},{"startTime":626.693,"endTime":629.993,"body":"back and the customer doesn't"},{"startTime":629.993,"endTime":631.013,"body":"really know what they want."},{"startTime":631.513,"endTime":634.273,"body":"We thought they said yes to"},{"startTime":631.513,"endTime":634.273,"body":"this, and now they're saying no."},{"startTime":634.513,"endTime":634.933,"body":"Guess what?"},{"startTime":634.933,"endTime":636.923,"body":"We're not gonna involve"},{"startTime":634.933,"endTime":636.923,"body":"them in future reviews."},{"startTime":636.983,"endTime":637.163,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":637.588,"endTime":638.723,"body":", those sorts of things."},{"startTime":638.933,"endTime":642.713,"body":"Right so I, I think it kind of"},{"startTime":638.933,"endTime":642.713,"body":"goes into various directions there"},{"startTime":642.718,"endTime":644.573,"body":"when they say it doesn't work here."},{"startTime":644.573,"endTime":647.933,"body":"But the bottom line is they"},{"startTime":644.573,"endTime":647.933,"body":"really didn't try to be agile"},{"startTime":648.353,"endTime":650.678,"body":"in the sense of being agile."},{"startTime":650.728,"endTime":654.448,"body":"Responding to change, which means"},{"startTime":650.728,"endTime":654.448,"body":"welcoming change, which means listening"},{"startTime":654.448,"endTime":658.358,"body":"to customers which means involving"},{"startTime":654.448,"endTime":658.358,"body":"customers throughout the process."},{"startTime":658.388,"endTime":660.038,"body":"All of that wasn't there."},{"startTime":660.368,"endTime":665.008,"body":"It was basically okay, we're"},{"startTime":660.368,"endTime":665.008,"body":"gonna adopt some practices and"},{"startTime":665.008,"endTime":666.298,"body":"therefore we must be agile."},{"startTime":666.448,"endTime":666.748,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":666.898,"endTime":667.258,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":667.408,"endTime":671.028,"body":"If you have a deep seated fear"},{"startTime":667.408,"endTime":671.028,"body":"of failure,  this is speaking"},{"startTime":671.028,"endTime":672.108,"body":"as a product manager, right?"},{"startTime":672.528,"endTime":676.938,"body":"If you have deep seated fear of"},{"startTime":672.528,"endTime":676.938,"body":"failure, like may, product management"},{"startTime":676.938,"endTime":678.498,"body":"is not the job for you, right?"},{"startTime":678.998,"endTime":684.538,"body":",  for the people here that may, may have"},{"startTime":678.998,"endTime":684.538,"body":"randomly found our podcast, if you are"},{"startTime":684.538,"endTime":689.488,"body":"afraid of being told that your ideas are"},{"startTime":684.538,"endTime":689.488,"body":"all terrible and that they won't work,"},{"startTime":689.908,"endTime":693.148,"body":"and that you have to prove that they're"},{"startTime":689.908,"endTime":693.148,"body":"going to work before you're allowed to do"},{"startTime":693.148,"endTime":697.605,"body":"anything on your own and that is like too,"},{"startTime":693.148,"endTime":697.605,"body":"too  that yeah, that is too much for your"},{"startTime":697.605,"endTime":701.115,"body":"fragile ego to deal like this is like,"},{"startTime":697.605,"endTime":701.115,"body":"you need to get outta product development"},{"startTime":701.115,"endTime":702.375,"body":"and find another job like this."},{"startTime":702.405,"endTime":703.545,"body":"It's not gonna work."},{"startTime":703.55,"endTime":704.595,"body":"It's just, yeah."},{"startTime":704.715,"endTime":708.545,"body":"it's a bad career field to be in because"},{"startTime":704.715,"endTime":708.545,"body":"they, a lot of times you will come up"},{"startTime":708.545,"endTime":713.635,"body":"with ideas that they, they are good ideas"},{"startTime":708.545,"endTime":713.635,"body":"and you'll never have the ability to"},{"startTime":713.635,"endTime":717.105,"body":"implement them because either the customer"},{"startTime":713.635,"endTime":717.105,"body":"market isn't there, or the numbers aren't"},{"startTime":717.105,"endTime":718.545,"body":"there, or the evidence isn't there."},{"startTime":718.755,"endTime":722.055,"body":"Or, or even like, this is, I feel this"},{"startTime":718.755,"endTime":722.055,"body":"is the one that isn't talked about"},{"startTime":722.055,"endTime":725.551,"body":"very often is the ability you have"},{"startTime":722.055,"endTime":725.551,"body":"to expend to go get those numbers."},{"startTime":725.781,"endTime":728.511,"body":"the company's just not willing"},{"startTime":725.781,"endTime":728.511,"body":"to even invest time in that."},{"startTime":728.661,"endTime":728.871,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":728.901,"endTime":730.711,"body":"Which stinks cuz then"},{"startTime":728.901,"endTime":730.711,"body":"you don't even get a."},{"startTime":730.711,"endTime":734.431,"body":"solid A solid Oh, this was"},{"startTime":730.711,"endTime":734.431,"body":"a good idea, but it, it, it"},{"startTime":734.431,"endTime":735.451,"body":"doesn't work for our business."},{"startTime":735.481,"endTime":736.501,"body":"You don't even get that."},{"startTime":736.981,"endTime":740.271,"body":"You get, we don't have the money to"},{"startTime":736.981,"endTime":740.271,"body":"invest in the time it takes to figure"},{"startTime":740.271,"endTime":741.171,"body":"out if this is a good, you know?"},{"startTime":741.671,"endTime":741.911,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":741.911,"endTime":747.171,"body":"So, if you're, afraid of failure,"},{"startTime":741.911,"endTime":747.171,"body":"you, you are not likely to experiment."},{"startTime":747.671,"endTime":748.031,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":748.121,"endTime":750.881,"body":"Because you want certainty,"},{"startTime":748.121,"endTime":750.881,"body":"that's what you want."},{"startTime":750.941,"endTime":753.881,"body":"And certainty only gets you one thing."},{"startTime":753.911,"endTime":755.201,"body":"It gets you a cul-de-sac."},{"startTime":755.231,"endTime":757.481,"body":"You're gonna go down a path and that's it."},{"startTime":757.811,"endTime":761.471,"body":"You hope your customer's there,"},{"startTime":757.811,"endTime":761.471,"body":"but even if they're there, it's a"},{"startTime":761.476,"endTime":763.641,"body":"cul-de-sac, you're not going any further."},{"startTime":763.641,"endTime":763.941,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":764.301,"endTime":770.321,"body":"So if you have that, that mentality"},{"startTime":764.301,"endTime":770.321,"body":"of avoiding experimentation, you're"},{"startTime":770.321,"endTime":774.551,"body":"stifling innovation, you're stifling"},{"startTime":770.321,"endTime":774.551,"body":"the possibility of inventing things."},{"startTime":774.581,"endTime":778.086,"body":"Finding a better solution for your"},{"startTime":774.581,"endTime":778.086,"body":"customer yeah, all of this is just,"},{"startTime":778.521,"endTime":782.541,"body":"Pointing to one thing, agility doesn't"},{"startTime":778.521,"endTime":782.541,"body":"work for you and it doesn't work"},{"startTime":782.541,"endTime":785.031,"body":"for you because you want certainty."},{"startTime":785.531,"endTime":789.741,"body":"Those two things are kind of"},{"startTime":785.531,"endTime":789.741,"body":"paradoxically opposed, Right?"},{"startTime":789.801,"endTime":791.691,"body":"you want certainty, guess what?"},{"startTime":792.191,"endTime":792.911,"body":"Don't do agile."},{"startTime":793.411,"endTime":795.661,"body":"Do you want certainty"},{"startTime":793.411,"endTime":795.661,"body":"or do you want control?"},{"startTime":795.721,"endTime":800.316,"body":"Because the difference is I think"},{"startTime":795.721,"endTime":800.316,"body":"like power companies or telecoms,"},{"startTime":800.316,"endTime":801.936,"body":"this is specifically in America."},{"startTime":801.936,"endTime":804.996,"body":"Cause I don't know about outside"},{"startTime":801.936,"endTime":804.996,"body":"America, but the, like the, the phone"},{"startTime":804.996,"endTime":809.556,"body":"companies or the cable companies or"},{"startTime":804.996,"endTime":809.556,"body":"the, the internet providers, the ISPs in"},{"startTime":809.556,"endTime":812.396,"body":"America the power utilities in America."},{"startTime":812.396,"endTime":814.676,"body":"Like, they're all basically"},{"startTime":812.396,"endTime":814.676,"body":"monopolies in their area."},{"startTime":814.676,"endTime":814.976,"body":"So Sure."},{"startTime":815.156,"endTime":817.826,"body":"You want certainty,  certainty"},{"startTime":815.156,"endTime":817.826,"body":"is basically if you live"},{"startTime":817.826,"endTime":818.606,"body":"in this geographical."},{"startTime":819.106,"endTime":824.046,"body":"And you want this particular service"},{"startTime":819.106,"endTime":824.046,"body":"the certainty is you have the choice."},{"startTime":824.166,"endTime":825.426,"body":"You either get the service or you don't."},{"startTime":825.486,"endTime":825.816,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":825.876,"endTime":827.406,"body":"One provider that, that's it."},{"startTime":827.406,"endTime":828.426,"body":"That's monopoly."},{"startTime":828.426,"endTime":828.726,"body":"That's, Yeah."},{"startTime":828.731,"endTime":833.251,"body":"So, when I think about control, like"},{"startTime":828.731,"endTime":833.251,"body":"the need for control, and I think about"},{"startTime":833.251,"endTime":836.251,"body":"like the need to reduce uncertainty."},{"startTime":836.251,"endTime":838.741,"body":"Now we're going to our, and we're,"},{"startTime":836.251,"endTime":838.741,"body":"we're borderline going into our"},{"startTime":838.741,"endTime":840.091,"body":"podcasts on plans right now."},{"startTime":840.091,"endTime":843.391,"body":"So I don't know how, I don't know how"},{"startTime":840.091,"endTime":843.391,"body":"deep we're gonna get on this subject."},{"startTime":843.396,"endTime":844.351,"body":"Well, we explore a little, but yeah."},{"startTime":844.351,"endTime":846.181,"body":"I don't know how deep we're gonna"},{"startTime":844.351,"endTime":846.181,"body":"get on the subject because you have a"},{"startTime":846.186,"endTime":849.751,"body":"whole nother podcast on this specific"},{"startTime":846.186,"endTime":849.751,"body":"thing, but the fix that grinds against"},{"startTime":849.751,"endTime":852.451,"body":"that need for control, that, that"},{"startTime":849.751,"endTime":852.451,"body":"wears down, that need for control."},{"startTime":852.451,"endTime":856.381,"body":"I don't know It is to basically"},{"startTime":852.451,"endTime":856.381,"body":"decentralize, it's to decouple things."},{"startTime":856.411,"endTime":856.501,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":856.741,"endTime":861.331,"body":". So, and then to, to basically scale your"},{"startTime":856.741,"endTime":861.331,"body":"organization by not scaling, rather than"},{"startTime":861.331,"endTime":863.401,"body":"scaling up and down, you scale sideways."},{"startTime":863.551,"endTime":863.761,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":863.811,"endTime":867.271,"body":"You get more product owners, you trust"},{"startTime":863.811,"endTime":867.271,"body":"them to do the job that, that , in"},{"startTime":867.271,"endTime":870.451,"body":"the area that they're assigned"},{"startTime":867.271,"endTime":870.451,"body":"in the product or the products"},{"startTime":870.451,"endTime":871.381,"body":"they're assigned to, whatever."},{"startTime":871.881,"endTime":877.361,"body":"but that inability to trust, which I label"},{"startTime":871.881,"endTime":877.361,"body":"as you know, the need for control Great."},{"startTime":877.361,"endTime":880.691,"body":"Is some organizations that's,"},{"startTime":877.361,"endTime":880.691,"body":"that is that inability to trust"},{"startTime":880.691,"endTime":881.861,"body":"is pitched as a good thing."},{"startTime":881.861,"endTime":886.391,"body":"I think of organizations that I've been"},{"startTime":881.861,"endTime":886.391,"body":"at that have a lot of, I think of the best"},{"startTime":886.541,"endTime":888.311,"body":"project managers I've ever worked with."},{"startTime":888.701,"endTime":890.531,"body":"That inability to trust."},{"startTime":890.561,"endTime":890.771,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":891.271,"endTime":892.561,"body":"But as a, as."},{"startTime":893.061,"endTime":894.111,"body":"Professional skill."},{"startTime":894.611,"endTime":897.971,"body":"The best project managers that I've"},{"startTime":894.611,"endTime":897.971,"body":"ever worked with, they don't let you,"},{"startTime":898.001,"endTime":899.831,"body":"they don't let you slide on anything."},{"startTime":900.101,"endTime":903.941,"body":"If you, if, if there's something that"},{"startTime":900.101,"endTime":903.941,"body":"needs to be done, they will say, Who"},{"startTime":903.941,"endTime":906.431,"body":"is going to handle this deliverable?"},{"startTime":906.931,"endTime":910.231,"body":"And then when somebody raises their"},{"startTime":906.931,"endTime":910.231,"body":"hand, finally, after staring everyone"},{"startTime":910.231,"endTime":913.891,"body":"down, cuz the best project managers,"},{"startTime":910.231,"endTime":913.891,"body":"believe it or not, are okay with silence."},{"startTime":913.891,"endTime":915.331,"body":"They will let something linger."},{"startTime":915.361,"endTime":915.601,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":915.601,"endTime":919.741,"body":"Like I, I've been, most, I would"},{"startTime":915.601,"endTime":919.741,"body":"say probably the majority of project"},{"startTime":919.741,"endTime":921.121,"body":"managers that I've been around"},{"startTime":921.221,"endTime":922.481,"body":"they have to fill the silence."},{"startTime":922.541,"endTime":922.781,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":922.841,"endTime":925.716,"body":"With, with something but the best"},{"startTime":922.841,"endTime":925.716,"body":"ones are comfortable with the silence"},{"startTime":925.716,"endTime":928.386,"body":"and then they'll wait for someone"},{"startTime":925.716,"endTime":928.386,"body":"to volunteer and then as soon as a"},{"startTime":928.386,"endTime":931.736,"body":"person volunteers, Oh, I, I guess"},{"startTime":928.386,"endTime":931.736,"body":"I can, I don't think that's a lot."},{"startTime":931.736,"endTime":932.156,"body":"I can deal."},{"startTime":932.656,"endTime":936.346,"body":"and then they won't ask, When"},{"startTime":932.656,"endTime":936.346,"body":"can you have it back to me?"},{"startTime":936.346,"endTime":940.576,"body":"By it, they will, they will pick a"},{"startTime":936.346,"endTime":940.576,"body":"date outta the air and lay it on them"},{"startTime":940.576,"endTime":944.416,"body":"and say, Well, since you said you can"},{"startTime":940.576,"endTime":944.416,"body":"do this can you have it back to me?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":944.466,"endTime":948.606,"body":"30 PM Do you"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":944.466,"endTime":948.606,"body":"think you can have it back"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":948.606,"endTime":949.656,"body":"to me by the end of today?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":949.746,"endTime":951.096,"body":"Well, that's a generous question."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":951.276,"endTime":955.896,"body":"Normally it's like, you need to have"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":951.276,"endTime":955.896,"body":"it back to me by this state and time."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":956.196,"endTime":956.616,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":956.796,"endTime":960.846,"body":"And is there anything you see"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":956.796,"endTime":960.846,"body":"standing in your way and you are"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":960.846,"endTime":964.536,"body":"now thinking about this, thinking,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":960.846,"endTime":964.536,"body":"Oh, do I know, let's say take stock."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":964.656,"endTime":966.366,"body":"What risks do I No, you don't."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":966.396,"endTime":967.026,"body":"Okay, good."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":967.176,"endTime":967.596,"body":"You're on."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":968.096,"endTime":969.626,"body":". That's what typically happens."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":969.866,"endTime":972.796,"body":"This is classic risk deference."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":972.826,"endTime":977.026,"body":"You there, these people that do this"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":972.826,"endTime":977.026,"body":"are deferring the risk of failure from"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":977.026,"endTime":978.946,"body":"themselves to somebody else on the team."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":979.006,"endTime":979.246,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":979.486,"endTime":981.916,"body":"Which is really just horrible."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":981.921,"endTime":982.726,"body":"Right, Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":982.726,"endTime":986.806,"body":"And it, and it contributes"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":982.726,"endTime":986.806,"body":"absolutely to this whole idea"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":986.806,"endTime":988.286,"body":"of actually doesn't work here."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":988.286,"endTime":989.786,"body":"Well no, it doesn't work there."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":989.846,"endTime":992.136,"body":"Well, once you let's say that"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":989.846,"endTime":992.136,"body":"you do that professionally."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":992.166,"endTime":996.656,"body":"Let's say that you do, like you, you're a"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":992.166,"endTime":996.656,"body":"professional risker risk, risk delegator."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":996.956,"endTime":1001.576,"body":"You delegate risks to other people,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":996.956,"endTime":1001.576,"body":"and then when the risks end up being"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1001.696,"endTime":1005.266,"body":"satisfied and then turn out where there"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1001.696,"endTime":1005.266,"body":"are no risk, then you are champion."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1005.446,"endTime":1008.926,"body":"But if the risks fall through and"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1005.446,"endTime":1008.926,"body":"become full blown catastrophes,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1009.136,"endTime":1013.036,"body":"then the person who failed is on the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1009.136,"endTime":1013.036,"body":"hook for like this . That's right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1013.366,"endTime":1014.831,"body":"You've just described project management."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1014.831,"endTime":1015.761,"body":"It's so slick."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1015.761,"endTime":1019.946,"body":"Like this is so slick if you're, But"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1015.761,"endTime":1019.946,"body":"I brought this up to say the, the, the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1019.946,"endTime":1026.241,"body":"culture where control is, the main goal"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1019.946,"endTime":1026.241,"body":"of the business that we, we feel that"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1026.246,"endTime":1029.181,"body":"we're in control of everything, right?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1029.361,"endTime":1029.451,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1029.501,"endTime":1035.531,"body":"There would be culturally an inability"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1029.501,"endTime":1035.531,"body":"to trust culturally because you've got"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1035.531,"endTime":1036.941,"body":"people like that in the organization."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1036.941,"endTime":1037.001,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1037.081,"endTime":1037.741,"body":"This is, Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1037.891,"endTime":1043.591,"body":"So yeah, this is classic old, old school,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1037.891,"endTime":1043.591,"body":"old style project management where a"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1043.591,"endTime":1049.611,"body":"project manager would look at something"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1043.591,"endTime":1049.611,"body":"as a piece of work, break it down and"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1049.616,"endTime":1051.501,"body":"say, This is what needs to happen."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1051.921,"endTime":1058.471,"body":"And assign it to an individual and say,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1051.921,"endTime":1058.471,"body":"Here's your work breakdown package."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1058.791,"endTime":1059.001,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1059.391,"endTime":1060.861,"body":", that's what, that's what it was called."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1060.861,"endTime":1065.521,"body":"That's a real term in project"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1060.861,"endTime":1065.521,"body":"management, wbs work breakdown structure."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1065.526,"endTime":1065.581,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1065.701,"endTime":1069.391,"body":"So you have a structure that, that"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1065.701,"endTime":1069.391,"body":"basically says, here are the individuals"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1069.391,"endTime":1074.911,"body":"that are assigned this lot of work"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1069.391,"endTime":1074.911,"body":"and, and the project manager, I don't"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1074.911,"endTime":1079.171,"body":"know why, what makes them qualified"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1074.911,"endTime":1079.171,"body":"for this, but they would decide"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1079.671,"endTime":1083.691,"body":"how much work, the type of work, et"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1079.671,"endTime":1083.691,"body":"cetera, each individual is doing."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1083.811,"endTime":1086.571,"body":"And again, I just go"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1083.811,"endTime":1086.571,"body":"back to that term risk."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1087.071,"endTime":1090.761,"body":"Deference, they're deferring the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1087.071,"endTime":1090.761,"body":"risk from themselves cuz they had a"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1090.761,"endTime":1094.801,"body":"project manager to the doers of work."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1095.191,"endTime":1099.271,"body":"So these doers can do perfectly well"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1095.191,"endTime":1099.271,"body":"with everything, but it comes down to the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1099.571,"endTime":1104.191,"body":"pros and the proficiency of the project"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1099.571,"endTime":1104.191,"body":"manager to say, this is the right work"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1104.191,"endTime":1108.091,"body":"to do, the right people to do the work,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1104.191,"endTime":1108.091,"body":"the right time to do the work, et cetera."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1108.151,"endTime":1108.481,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1108.751,"endTime":1112.621,"body":"And typically that's not been the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1108.751,"endTime":1112.621,"body":"case in my experience, because"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1112.621,"endTime":1116.311,"body":"these people are not ones that have"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1112.621,"endTime":1116.311,"body":"actually done the work themselves."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1116.311,"endTime":1118.381,"body":"They don't understand what"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1116.311,"endTime":1118.381,"body":"it takes to do the work."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1118.561,"endTime":1118.741,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1118.831,"endTime":1125.601,"body":"They are a manager of basically a project"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1118.831,"endTime":1125.601,"body":"plan and you know, the one question"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1125.601,"endTime":1127.611,"body":"they ask every day is, is it done yet?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1127.851,"endTime":1128.061,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1128.331,"endTime":1132.781,"body":"That's the organization that"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1128.331,"endTime":1132.781,"body":"supposedly adopts agility and"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1132.786,"endTime":1134.341,"body":"says Agile doesn't work here."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1134.371,"endTime":1134.461,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1134.461,"endTime":1136.981,"body":"Because that's the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1134.461,"endTime":1136.981,"body":"ingrained culture you have."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1137.481,"endTime":1137.871,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1137.901,"endTime":1138.201,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1138.201,"endTime":1138.561,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1138.561,"endTime":1142.811,"body":"With, with a culture like that, I am"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1138.561,"endTime":1142.811,"body":"not even sure where you would start"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1143.081,"endTime":1146.496,"body":"yeah it's made even worse if all your"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1143.081,"endTime":1146.496,"body":"employee, like of all your individual"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1146.496,"endTime":1149.646,"body":"developers, like team members, what we"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1146.496,"endTime":1149.646,"body":"think of as team members, we're all,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1149.646,"endTime":1153.036,"body":"are all contractors and the project"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1149.646,"endTime":1153.036,"body":"managers are permanent employees."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1153.196,"endTime":1153.976,"body":"The levels."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1153.976,"endTime":1157.456,"body":"It makes it so"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1153.976,"endTime":1157.456,"body":"insurmountable at that point."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1157.606,"endTime":1158.366,"body":"Right yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1158.366,"endTime":1161.976,"body":"I I, I don't even know where I would"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1158.366,"endTime":1161.976,"body":"start for, for people listening and I'm"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1161.976,"endTime":1165.666,"body":"trying not to leave people listening"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1161.976,"endTime":1165.666,"body":"to this podcast and complete despair."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1165.806,"endTime":1169.196,"body":"So we've, so far, we just talked"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1165.806,"endTime":1169.196,"body":"about why Agile doesn't work here."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1169.256,"endTime":1169.496,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1169.931,"endTime":1173.941,"body":". And we can kind of go to some of the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1169.931,"endTime":1173.941,"body":"reasons which you've already started"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1173.941,"endTime":1175.901,"body":"doing so what do you do about that?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1175.906,"endTime":1176.251,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1176.336,"endTime":1176.561,"body":", right?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1176.561,"endTime":1180.311,"body":"That, that's the next thing, I guess, for"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1176.561,"endTime":1180.311,"body":"those people listening, wondering, where"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1180.311,"endTime":1181.841,"body":"are these two guys going with this stuff?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1182.081,"endTime":1183.581,"body":"What do you do about that?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1183.941,"endTime":1184.211,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1184.211,"endTime":1188.161,"body":"First things first is"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1184.211,"endTime":1188.161,"body":"recognize that it's not agile."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1188.161,"endTime":1191.961,"body":"That's not working, you're not"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1188.161,"endTime":1191.961,"body":"really doing anything agile."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1191.991,"endTime":1193.851,"body":"You're simply putting labels on it, right?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1193.851,"endTime":1198.611,"body":"Look at your Scrum Masters, your newly"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1193.851,"endTime":1198.611,"body":"branded, newly minted Scrum masters."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1198.611,"endTime":1201.881,"body":"Are your project managers that"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1198.611,"endTime":1201.881,"body":"have just been given a new title"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1202.381,"endTime":1207.681,"body":"your product owners, do they have"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1202.381,"endTime":1207.681,"body":"a clue about product ownership or"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1207.681,"endTime":1210.441,"body":"are they just people that were there"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1207.681,"endTime":1210.441,"body":"in the organization that were just"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1210.441,"endTime":1214.911,"body":"told, Hey, guess what, Mary, Fred,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1210.441,"endTime":1214.911,"body":"Joe, you're now a product owner."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1214.916,"endTime":1215.321,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1215.451,"endTime":1219.471,"body":"You're not gonna succeed by doing"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1215.451,"endTime":1219.471,"body":"that, so look at those kinds of"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1219.471,"endTime":1223.941,"body":"things and say, really, We're not"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1219.471,"endTime":1223.941,"body":"agile, we're not doing anything agile"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1224.301,"endTime":1227.121,"body":"so that we cannot expect success"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1227.155,"endTime":1231.26,"body":"if you're in that situation where Agile"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1227.155,"endTime":1231.26,"body":"doesn't work there in your organization,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1231.26,"endTime":1232.58,"body":"how do you go forward from there?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1232.85,"endTime":1237.28,"body":"You know, after you've got enough"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1232.85,"endTime":1237.28,"body":"gumption built in to say to your"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1237.285,"endTime":1241.35,"body":"leadership, whatever it is we're doing,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1237.285,"endTime":1241.35,"body":"it's not working, it isn't agile."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1241.85,"endTime":1247.15,"body":"So let's do a couple of small"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1241.85,"endTime":1247.15,"body":"things that are agile, right?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1247.65,"endTime":1249.9,"body":"Let's get the customer"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1247.65,"endTime":1249.9,"body":"involved and listen to them."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1249.9,"endTime":1255.02,"body":"Really listen, let's get the teams"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1249.9,"endTime":1255.02,"body":"to say what they can deliver towards"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1255.02,"endTime":1259.27,"body":"what the customer's saying in a given"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1255.02,"endTime":1259.27,"body":"period of time, and get early feedback"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1259.27,"endTime":1263.23,"body":"early and constant feedback if you do"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1259.27,"endTime":1263.23,"body":"those things, You're well on your way."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1263.66,"endTime":1266.09,"body":"Because you're gonna find"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1263.66,"endTime":1266.09,"body":"in the longer term, medium,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1266.095,"endTime":1267.62,"body":"actually medium to longer term."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1267.625,"endTime":1268.01,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1268.4,"endTime":1273.35,"body":", you are successful compared to what"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1268.4,"endTime":1273.35,"body":"you're doing today and claiming that it's"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1273.35,"endTime":1275.36,"body":"agile and you're not being successful."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1275.46,"endTime":1279.98,"body":"The battle though, you're gonna have,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1275.46,"endTime":1279.98,"body":"I have to say, is not with your teams."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1280.31,"endTime":1283.34,"body":"It is probably also not"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1280.31,"endTime":1283.34,"body":"with your customers."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1283.64,"endTime":1287.87,"body":"The battle you're gonna have, the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1283.64,"endTime":1287.87,"body":"challenges you face will be with your"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1288.2,"endTime":1293.13,"body":"senior -to- executive leadership,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1288.2,"endTime":1293.13,"body":"because those people have the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1293.13,"endTime":1299.57,"body":"fixed mindset of how work is done"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1293.13,"endTime":1299.57,"body":"in the, the command and control."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1299.66,"endTime":1299.84,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1299.9,"endTime":1301.13,"body":"CNC environment."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1301.63,"endTime":1303.59,"body":"You need to break those shackles."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1303.61,"endTime":1305.98,"body":"And that is easier said than done."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1306.32,"endTime":1310.69,"body":"This is where you need somebody to come"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1306.32,"endTime":1310.69,"body":"in and say, I've been telling the same"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1310.69,"endTime":1315.64,"body":"things to our leaders, but when somebody"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1310.69,"endTime":1315.64,"body":"from outside comes in and says exactly the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1315.64,"endTime":1321.25,"body":"same thing, it may have a shot at being"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1315.64,"endTime":1321.25,"body":"successful because now it's from another"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1321.255,"endTime":1324.19,"body":"source from outside the organization."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1324.19,"endTime":1324.49,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1324.495,"endTime":1327.14,"body":"Yeah a supposedly perceived expert."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1327.25,"endTime":1330.413,"body":"Let's talk about that one, because"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1327.25,"endTime":1330.413,"body":"that's a, where people either start"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1330.413,"endTime":1335.333,"body":"their agile journey or they their agile"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1330.413,"endTime":1335.333,"body":"journey gets reinvigorated or gain"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1335.333,"endTime":1338.353,"body":"steam or gains Momentum is sponsorship."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1338.833,"endTime":1343.533,"body":"Usually what I hear is, Well, we have"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1338.833,"endTime":1343.533,"body":"this person and the executive team,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1343.533,"endTime":1349.143,"body":"or we just the company just hired this"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1343.533,"endTime":1349.143,"body":"CIO or c, xo, whatever whatever it is."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1349.173,"endTime":1349.323,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1349.593,"endTime":1352.623,"body":"And they came from a company that"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1349.593,"endTime":1352.623,"body":"used Agile, and now they're here"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1352.623,"endTime":1353.853,"body":"and they think it's important."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1353.853,"endTime":1356.563,"body":"So they're they made a case, they,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1353.853,"endTime":1356.563,"body":"they're bringing in product owners,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1356.563,"endTime":1359.173,"body":"they're bringing the Scrum masters,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1356.563,"endTime":1359.173,"body":"maybe they're bringing in agile coaches"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1359.228,"endTime":1362.828,"body":"so there is a sponsor on"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1359.228,"endTime":1362.828,"body":"at the C level, right?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1363.098,"endTime":1366.638,"body":"Who's sponsoring the whole"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1363.098,"endTime":1366.638,"body":"Agile initiative at the company."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1367.138,"endTime":1370.708,"body":"The other thing I've heard is we"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1367.138,"endTime":1370.708,"body":"had these great processes and the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1370.708,"endTime":1371.998,"body":"company really believed in it."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1371.998,"endTime":1376.758,"body":"And then when this person from the C"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1371.998,"endTime":1376.758,"body":"level left, everything went downhill."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1376.848,"endTime":1377.088,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1377.188,"endTime":1381.658,"body":"But the ones that have been most"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1377.188,"endTime":1381.658,"body":"successful obviously have been both."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1381.928,"endTime":1382.048,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1382.128,"endTime":1387.038,"body":"Bottom down, sponsored while"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1382.128,"endTime":1387.038,"body":"at the same time a strong"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1387.043,"endTime":1388.658,"body":"initiative from the bottom up."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1388.838,"endTime":1391.038,"body":"So meet them in the middle type of deal."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1391.428,"endTime":1394.553,"body":"And  the only people in there that are"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1391.428,"endTime":1394.553,"body":"squeezed, are the middle managers who are"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1394.663,"endTime":1397.853,"body":"Hey no, that's a real dilemma"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1394.663,"endTime":1397.853,"body":"with the middle managers because"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1397.853,"endTime":1401.763,"body":"again, just like senior leaders,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1397.853,"endTime":1401.763,"body":"middle managers got to where they"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1401.768,"endTime":1403.823,"body":"are from the old ways of working."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1403.973,"endTime":1404.063,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1404.483,"endTime":1406.343,"body":"But we can help, we can help with that."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1406.553,"endTime":1408.893,"body":"We can help redefine their roles."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1409.193,"endTime":1414.023,"body":"We can help them by defining the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1409.193,"endTime":1414.023,"body":"roles that are different now for,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1414.083,"endTime":1415.703,"body":"for middle managers than before."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1416.013,"endTime":1417.663,"body":"so they're no longer commanding control."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1417.663,"endTime":1418.723,"body":"They're no, they're no longer."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1419.223,"endTime":1424.083,"body":"You know, asking the team or demanding"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1419.223,"endTime":1424.083,"body":"of the team why something isn't done"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1424.513,"endTime":1429.513,"body":"based on some arbitrary timeline to"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1424.513,"endTime":1429.513,"body":"pivoting toward enabling the teams,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1429.518,"endTime":1433.173,"body":"making sure they have the right"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1429.518,"endTime":1433.173,"body":"skill sets, right to do their jobs."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1433.413,"endTime":1437.063,"body":"So manage the, the team in terms of."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1437.563,"endTime":1438.583,"body":"Requirements, right?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1438.583,"endTime":1444.523,"body":"For skills, for example making sure"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1438.583,"endTime":1444.523,"body":"that they have what they need in terms"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1444.523,"endTime":1449.673,"body":"of resources, systems, et cetera, et"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1444.523,"endTime":1449.673,"body":"cetera they're enablers in that sense."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1449.673,"endTime":1452.643,"body":"They no longer quote unquote managers."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1452.648,"endTime":1454.833,"body":"They, you're not managing"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1452.648,"endTime":1454.833,"body":"anything at that stage."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1455.193,"endTime":1459.393,"body":"The team is managing themselves,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1455.193,"endTime":1459.393,"body":"but you are an enabler."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1459.423,"endTime":1462.193,"body":"You're really making sure that"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1459.423,"endTime":1462.193,"body":"they the team has everything"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1462.193,"endTime":1464.593,"body":"they need in order to succeed."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1464.683,"endTime":1465.913,"body":"Yeah, huge shift."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1465.918,"endTime":1469.118,"body":"Easier to say in a few"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1465.918,"endTime":1469.118,"body":"seconds but mind shift"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1469.568,"endTime":1472.748,"body":"out of a lot of transformations and,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1469.568,"endTime":1472.748,"body":"and even the cases I just outlined"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1472.748,"endTime":1476.973,"body":"where I kind of left them out of"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1472.748,"endTime":1476.973,"body":"it this is, this is probably pretty"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1476.978,"endTime":1478.803,"body":"easy to take into consideration."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1478.808,"endTime":1484.283,"body":"The, the middle manager, if you actually,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1478.808,"endTime":1484.283,"body":"if you train the middle manager, As if you"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1484.283,"endTime":1486.053,"body":"were training, like get 'em all together."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1486.473,"endTime":1486.773,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1486.803,"endTime":1491.003,"body":"I I I I'm also making some assumptions"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1486.803,"endTime":1491.003,"body":"that your company's not massive at"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1491.003,"endTime":1494.263,"body":"this point, cuz of your company's"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1491.003,"endTime":1494.263,"body":"tens of thousands of employees."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1494.263,"endTime":1496.298,"body":"Like, okay, maybe , maybe"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1494.263,"endTime":1496.298,"body":"that's not gonna work."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1496.568,"endTime":1499.038,"body":"But also what do you transforming"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1496.568,"endTime":1499.038,"body":"in an agile transformation?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1499.043,"endTime":1502.068,"body":"10 thou, let, let's say you have"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1499.043,"endTime":1502.068,"body":"a thousand people in your company."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1502.308,"endTime":1502.458,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1502.588,"endTime":1503.598,"body":", I'm gonna go big on this one."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1503.928,"endTime":1505.788,"body":"What, what if, what if you have a"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1503.928,"endTime":1505.788,"body":"thousand people in your company?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1505.818,"endTime":1507.558,"body":"How many middle managers"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1505.818,"endTime":1507.558,"body":"do you have in a company?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1507.558,"endTime":1512.678,"body":"You have 1,200, Let's say 200 at the most."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1512.678,"endTime":1512.858,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1512.888,"endTime":1513.068,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1513.073,"endTime":1517.108,"body":"Well out of that 200 how many are"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1513.073,"endTime":1517.108,"body":"in the segment of the organization"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1517.288,"endTime":1519.798,"body":"that's going agile right now?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1520.038,"endTime":1520.308,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1520.338,"endTime":1520.578,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1520.578,"endTime":1521.508,"body":"Maybe 10%."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1521.598,"endTime":1522.918,"body":"So 2020 middle managers."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1523.008,"endTime":1523.158,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1523.188,"endTime":1523.428,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1523.428,"endTime":1526.068,"body":"Well maybe we can take those 20"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1523.428,"endTime":1526.068,"body":"middle managers, break 'em into"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1526.068,"endTime":1528.518,"body":"two segments, have two teams at 10."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1528.698,"endTime":1534.688,"body":"Maybe we can make them enabler teams"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1528.698,"endTime":1534.688,"body":"that unblock and accelerate other teams"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1534.748,"endTime":1536.038,"body":"and now they have a new job purpose."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1536.038,"endTime":1539.778,"body":"But if we don't train them, On what"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1536.038,"endTime":1539.778,"body":"their new role is now that we've"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1539.988,"endTime":1542.118,"body":"quote, taken all their employees away."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1542.118,"endTime":1542.178,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1542.238,"endTime":1544.378,"body":"Taken all their resources away."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1544.383,"endTime":1544.748,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1544.753,"endTime":1544.888,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1544.948,"endTime":1548.228,"body":"If we don't train them on what their"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1544.948,"endTime":1548.228,"body":"new job is of course all they're gonna"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1548.228,"endTime":1549.878,"body":"do full time is fight the process."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1549.878,"endTime":1550.268,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1550.418,"endTime":1552.098,"body":"You know, of course that's what"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1550.418,"endTime":1552.098,"body":"they're gonna do, because they're not,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1552.098,"endTime":1553.688,"body":"they're being left out of the vision."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1553.928,"endTime":1558.458,"body":"They're not being given new tools to"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1553.928,"endTime":1558.458,"body":"succeed that I, I'm expecting that"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1558.458,"endTime":1562.128,"body":"these people are still left in those"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1558.458,"endTime":1562.128,"body":"positions because they're they, they've"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1562.128,"endTime":1563.658,"body":"proven themselves to the company."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1563.658,"endTime":1566.053,"body":"They they have, maybe they have"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1563.658,"endTime":1566.053,"body":"leadership skills, stuff like that."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1566.053,"endTime":1566.143,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1566.393,"endTime":1569.543,"body":", they're successful as employees"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1566.393,"endTime":1569.543,"body":"probably is good part of"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1569.543,"endTime":1570.443,"body":"probably why they're there."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1570.533,"endTime":1575.983,"body":"Yeah so like you're in a typical"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1570.533,"endTime":1575.983,"body":"agile transformation that I think of"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1576.033,"endTime":1578.733,"body":"I've been trying not to use the word"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1576.033,"endTime":1578.733,"body":"agile transformation in this podcast."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1578.738,"endTime":1578.963,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1579.463,"endTime":1582.923,"body":"A typical transformation these people"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1579.463,"endTime":1582.923,"body":"are left out because the transformation"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1582.928,"endTime":1586.563,"body":"has, has no place for these people,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1582.928,"endTime":1586.563,"body":"all the scaling models I can think of,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1586.983,"endTime":1588.963,"body":"ha ha have no place for these people."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1589.463,"endTime":1590.273,"body":"Yeah, I think you're right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1590.373,"endTime":1595.033,"body":", I, I think from the perspective of those"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1590.373,"endTime":1595.033,"body":"those middle managers, they feel like a"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1595.033,"endTime":1598.843,"body":"loss of control, a loss of worth, right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1598.843,"endTime":1599.313,"body":"That you Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1599.623,"endTime":1600.253,"body":"Self worth."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1600.253,"endTime":1603.132,"body":"I mean, you had it right, the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1600.253,"endTime":1603.132,"body":"unwillingness to decentralize."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1603.132,"endTime":1603.972,"body":"I think you had it right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1603.972,"endTime":1607.652,"body":"Like the part of the unwillingness"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1603.972,"endTime":1607.652,"body":"to decentralize comes from you"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1607.652,"endTime":1610.762,"body":"have this, the glue between the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1607.652,"endTime":1610.762,"body":"top of your organization Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1610.767,"endTime":1611.972,"body":"And the bottom of your organization."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1612.272,"endTime":1615.182,"body":"It's not really top and bottom, but"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1612.272,"endTime":1615.182,"body":"you the, I guess the glue between"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1615.212,"endTime":1618.002,"body":"upstream and your organization and"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1615.212,"endTime":1618.002,"body":"downstreaming your organization."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1618.032,"endTime":1619.292,"body":"It doesn't, I'm not really making it."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1619.292,"endTime":1620.432,"body":"I know I turned it sideways."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1620.432,"endTime":1622.412,"body":"I'm not really banking a, but"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1620.432,"endTime":1622.412,"body":"the grew between head and tails."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1622.412,"endTime":1622.592,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1622.592,"endTime":1625.112,"body":"The, I know the between, Yeah,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1622.592,"endTime":1625.112,"body":"the glue between the pieces."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1625.142,"endTime":1630.332,"body":"Yeah  and again, all your models do this"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1625.142,"endTime":1630.332,"body":"e even when you go to csm even when you"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1630.332,"endTime":1632.042,"body":"go to your introductory csm, they do this."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1632.292,"endTime":1634.412,"body":"Oh, you don't need all"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1632.292,"endTime":1634.412,"body":"this middle managers."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1634.412,"endTime":1635.817,"body":"It's all waste lean thinking."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1636.117,"endTime":1636.927,"body":"It's all waste."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1637.167,"endTime":1639.387,"body":"I mean, well, I mean,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1637.167,"endTime":1639.387,"body":"let's stop for a second."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1639.597,"endTime":1640.767,"body":"Like, is it waste?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1640.767,"endTime":1645.647,"body":"Because from my perspective, when you"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1640.767,"endTime":1645.647,"body":"start talking about scaling and put all"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1645.647,"endTime":1649.457,"body":"these controls in and this overhead in"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1645.647,"endTime":1649.457,"body":"place, like actually if we think about"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1649.457,"endTime":1653.657,"body":"it for a second, if the middle management"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1649.457,"endTime":1653.657,"body":"enabling teams were doing their job,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1654.157,"endTime":1656.407,"body":"you wouldn't need all that waste, right?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1656.797,"endTime":1660.097,"body":"Because we can just take the people"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1656.797,"endTime":1660.097,"body":"we already have in the organization"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1660.397,"endTime":1663.757,"body":"and just kind of teach 'em, hey, when"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1660.397,"endTime":1663.757,"body":"stuff fall falls through the cracks,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1663.757,"endTime":1665.797,"body":"when communication just kind of falls"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1663.757,"endTime":1665.797,"body":"through, fall through the cracks."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1665.797,"endTime":1669.367,"body":"Well you're talking to everyone"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1665.797,"endTime":1669.367,"body":"because you get a view across teams"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1669.367,"endTime":1670.807,"body":"cuz you're the enabling team now."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1671.017,"endTime":1671.167,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1671.167,"endTime":1675.037,"body":"But also since you're probably still"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1671.167,"endTime":1675.037,"body":"the traditional hiring managers and you"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1675.037,"endTime":1679.447,"body":"probably still are doing reviews and"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1675.037,"endTime":1679.447,"body":"stuff like that, you also get to have a"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1679.452,"endTime":1681.307,"body":"deeper interaction with the individuals."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1681.457,"endTime":1683.227,"body":"So you, you're seeing both sides."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1683.227,"endTime":1684.787,"body":"So actually you kind of are."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1685.287,"endTime":1689.937,"body":"Perfectly placed to not let things"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1685.287,"endTime":1689.937,"body":"fall through the cracks if the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1689.937,"endTime":1692.727,"body":"organization treats those folks that way."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1693.027,"endTime":1696.877,"body":"You know, because oftentimes what"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1693.027,"endTime":1696.877,"body":"happens is they're being told, Well,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1697.087,"endTime":1700.777,"body":"so and so that used to work for you"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1697.087,"endTime":1700.777,"body":"and so and so else, and so and so else."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1701.077,"endTime":1703.027,"body":"They're now not doing that."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1703.057,"endTime":1707.797,"body":"So the middle managers immediately"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1703.057,"endTime":1707.797,"body":"feels saying, loss of control"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1708.037,"endTime":1713.167,"body":"by thinking I don't have as many"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1708.037,"endTime":1713.167,"body":"direct reports as I did before."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1713.172,"endTime":1713.257,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1713.467,"endTime":1718.027,"body":"And that, that goes to another, I"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1713.467,"endTime":1718.027,"body":"know we're gonna talk about this, this"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1718.027,"endTime":1723.387,"body":"incentives thing, but that goes to a"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1718.027,"endTime":1723.387,"body":"different factor right in, in their"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1723.887,"endTime":1726.367,"body":"quote, their performance at their job."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1726.667,"endTime":1730.477,"body":"It shouldn't be defined by the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1726.667,"endTime":1730.477,"body":"number of direct reports they have."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1730.777,"endTime":1735.657,"body":"It should be defined really purely at"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1730.777,"endTime":1735.657,"body":"the same level as everybody else on"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1735.657,"endTime":1740.517,"body":"the team, or even at the same level"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1735.657,"endTime":1740.517,"body":"as, as they are middle managers."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1740.522,"endTime":1742.007,"body":"And then, , Wait for it."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1742.037,"endTime":1745.787,"body":"Those, those of you that are"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1742.037,"endTime":1745.787,"body":"listening, even the leadership people"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1745.967,"endTime":1748.037,"body":"should be defined at the same scale."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1748.037,"endTime":1751.127,"body":"Meaning how are we"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1748.037,"endTime":1751.127,"body":"delivering to our customers?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1751.127,"endTime":1751.667,"body":"That's it."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1751.717,"endTime":1752.197,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1752.277,"endTime":1752.877,"body":", nothing else."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1752.877,"endTime":1753.357,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1753.462,"endTime":1757.722,"body":","},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1753.462,"endTime":1757.722,"body":"so when those managers that say,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1757.722,"endTime":1762.202,"body":"to me now only have 25 or 30"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1757.722,"endTime":1762.202,"body":"people, geez, what am I gonna do?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1762.242,"endTime":1762.512,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1762.512,"endTime":1764.372,"body":"I'm actually being demoted here."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1764.372,"endTime":1766.652,"body":"I'm not, I'm not as valuable."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1766.832,"endTime":1772.162,"body":"I don't feel like I'm making forward"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1766.832,"endTime":1772.162,"body":"progress in the organization because"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1772.402,"endTime":1774.182,"body":"should I have more as I go up?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1774.682,"endTime":1780.262,"body":"That's, that thinking needs to be turned"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1774.682,"endTime":1780.262,"body":"on its head and say, I need to let go."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1780.442,"endTime":1782.722,"body":"You used the word"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1780.442,"endTime":1782.722,"body":"decentralization earlier."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1783.172,"endTime":1787.072,"body":"Need to let go, let trust people to get"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1783.172,"endTime":1787.072,"body":"the job done and get out of their way."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1787.077,"endTime":1787.162,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1787.162,"endTime":1791.242,"body":"But make sure that if there's anything you"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1787.162,"endTime":1791.242,"body":"can do to help 'em, you're there for that."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1791.247,"endTime":1791.622,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1791.672,"endTime":1791.942,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1791.942,"endTime":1794.272,"body":"I mean  This is not really meant"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1791.942,"endTime":1794.272,"body":"as a statement on anything."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1794.392,"endTime":1800.682,"body":"Who wants to work for leadership"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1794.392,"endTime":1800.682,"body":"where the, where they have"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1800.682,"endTime":1803.272,"body":"the inability to trust, Right?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1803.432,"endTime":1805.562,"body":"I mean, we're talking about"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1803.432,"endTime":1805.562,"body":"micromanagers at this point."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1805.592,"endTime":1806.522,"body":"Like Absolutely."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1806.572,"endTime":1811.067,"body":"If they're not micromanagers,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1806.572,"endTime":1811.067,"body":"they're, they have , this overbearing"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1811.127,"endTime":1814.907,"body":"meth methods of control in place"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1811.127,"endTime":1814.907,"body":"in the organization where they"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1814.907,"endTime":1816.747,"body":"can't they can't let anything go or"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1816.797,"endTime":1820.367,"body":"Where you're going is you're,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1816.797,"endTime":1820.367,"body":"you're going down the road of using"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1820.367,"endTime":1822.227,"body":"incentives as a positive thing."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1822.317,"endTime":1822.467,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1822.707,"endTime":1828.577,"body":"to propel us through to agility, to,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1822.707,"endTime":1828.577,"body":"to, to, to further develop our agility."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1829.077,"endTime":1829.347,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1829.767,"endTime":1834.817,"body":"Usually what I see is the company"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1829.767,"endTime":1834.817,"body":"will talk the talk, They might even"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1834.817,"endTime":1836.617,"body":"walk some of the steps in the walk."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1836.667,"endTime":1838.647,"body":"They might adjust developments."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1839.147,"endTime":1841.727,"body":"incentives to be more team focused."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1841.757,"endTime":1841.937,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1842.027,"endTime":1847.287,"body":"But then the rest of the business you"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1842.027,"endTime":1847.287,"body":"know, sales, marketing, the executives,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1847.287,"endTime":1852.227,"body":"hr, it's like they don't even know that"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1847.287,"endTime":1852.227,"body":"those different pieces of the organization"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1852.227,"endTime":1854.837,"body":"exist with regard to their incentives."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1854.887,"endTime":1858.907,"body":"The biggest, easiest one to spot"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1854.887,"endTime":1858.907,"body":"here for me is sales, because they"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1858.907,"endTime":1863.227,"body":"get judged on their ability to sell"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1858.907,"endTime":1863.227,"body":"things, but sell things that is in"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1863.227,"endTime":1866.317,"body":"our software versus sell things that"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1863.227,"endTime":1866.317,"body":"are not in our software doesn't really"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1866.317,"endTime":1868.297,"body":"matter as long as they close a deal."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1868.597,"endTime":1868.867,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1869.147,"endTime":1870.647,"body":"And rightfully so."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1870.707,"endTime":1873.987,"body":"I will like, I don't know why I'm"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1870.707,"endTime":1873.987,"body":"defending sales for a second the, the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1873.987,"endTime":1878.107,"body":"business will say like sales is the,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1873.987,"endTime":1878.107,"body":"they're the lifeblood of the organization."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1878.107,"endTime":1879.837,"body":"They're the, they're the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1878.107,"endTime":1879.837,"body":"I'd say that's wrong."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1880.257,"endTime":1880.797,"body":"I'll tell you why."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1880.797,"endTime":1885.077,"body":"That's, that's what, that's what you"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1880.797,"endTime":1885.077,"body":"have a very, very healthy book of sales."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1885.577,"endTime":1885.877,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1886.087,"endTime":1890.737,"body":"But if you're not delivering and"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1886.087,"endTime":1890.737,"body":"your pipeline is blocked, then yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1890.737,"endTime":1893.737,"body":"Your salespeople are booking"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1890.737,"endTime":1893.737,"body":"orders all day long and they're"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1893.737,"endTime":1894.877,"body":"collecting their commissions."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1894.877,"endTime":1896.977,"body":"How is that really"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1894.877,"endTime":1896.977,"body":"helping the organization?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1897.287,"endTime":1897.647,"body":"I've."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1898.147,"endTime":1902.317,"body":"Been lucky enough to be part of one"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1898.147,"endTime":1902.317,"body":"organization where I saw this change over"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1902.407,"endTime":1907.627,"body":"a few years where sales would not get"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1902.407,"endTime":1907.627,"body":"their commission on signing the contract."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1908.017,"endTime":1913.247,"body":"They would get a tiered set of"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1908.017,"endTime":1913.247,"body":"like events for their commission."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1913.252,"endTime":1916.547,"body":"So yes, they'll get a little bit when"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1913.252,"endTime":1916.547,"body":"they sign the order, that's fine."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1916.997,"endTime":1921.117,"body":"And then when the software is delivered"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1916.997,"endTime":1921.117,"body":"in what they call drop software"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1921.117,"endTime":1923.887,"body":"drops over time until go live."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1923.887,"endTime":1926.587,"body":"But that wouldn't be the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1923.887,"endTime":1926.587,"body":"final commission either."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1926.917,"endTime":1929.587,"body":"It would be go live plus, right?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1929.587,"endTime":1934.412,"body":"So the white glove period, whatever call"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1929.587,"endTime":1934.412,"body":"it all of that, hypercare, all of that"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1934.412,"endTime":1938.942,"body":"is done and dusted and that's when they"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1934.412,"endTime":1938.942,"body":"get their last chunk of their commission."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1939.442,"endTime":1943.912,"body":"The whole point, why I'm saying this is"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1939.442,"endTime":1943.912,"body":"because it makes the sales organization"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1944.122,"endTime":1945.742,"body":"well list two points I wanna make here."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1945.742,"endTime":1949.792,"body":"One is it makes the sales"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1945.742,"endTime":1949.792,"body":"organization vested in the process."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1950.272,"endTime":1954.112,"body":"And the second thing is they will not"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1950.272,"endTime":1954.112,"body":"go out and promise the earth because."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1954.612,"endTime":1957.492,"body":"They know they won't get the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1954.612,"endTime":1957.492,"body":"commission if it doesn't get delivered."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1957.612,"endTime":1957.702,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1957.822,"endTime":1962.212,"body":"So what it did in, in my experience,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1957.822,"endTime":1962.212,"body":"is it brought them closer to"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1962.212,"endTime":1964.942,"body":"the delivery side of the house."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1964.942,"endTime":1965.212,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1965.217,"endTime":1968.512,"body":"So they started saying, Well, come"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1965.217,"endTime":1968.512,"body":"out on sales calls with us and"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1968.662,"endTime":1972.262,"body":"make sure that when the customer"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1968.662,"endTime":1972.262,"body":"says we want your software to"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1972.262,"endTime":1974.902,"body":"do X, Y, Z, that it can do that."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1974.932,"endTime":1978.652,"body":"Or if it can't do that, let's be up front"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1974.932,"endTime":1978.652,"body":"and say we have to make custom changes."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1978.772,"endTime":1978.922,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1978.982,"endTime":1979.882,"body":"What does that look like?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1979.882,"endTime":1982.992,"body":"Well, you have, you have to"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1979.882,"endTime":1982.992,"body":"pay for some of these, Right?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1982.992,"endTime":1983.922,"body":"Or all of these."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1983.922,"endTime":1983.982,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1984.192,"endTime":1987.432,"body":"Depending on what the organization's"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1984.192,"endTime":1987.432,"body":"willing to where, where they're"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1987.432,"endTime":1988.422,"body":"willing to meet the customer."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1988.922,"endTime":1993.092,"body":"That was great because the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1988.922,"endTime":1993.092,"body":"customer knows going into it before"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1993.152,"endTime":1994.622,"body":"they sign the contract mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1994.862,"endTime":1995.792,"body":"what they're gonna get."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1996.122,"endTime":1996.452,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1996.482,"endTime":1998.192,"body":"And the salesperson knows that."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":1998.692,"endTime":2000.882,"body":"The delivery organization knows that."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2000.942,"endTime":2004.712,"body":"So I think that was a very good"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2000.942,"endTime":2004.712,"body":"compromise situation right there."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2004.712,"endTime":2005.032,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2005.112,"endTime":2009.062,"body":", it worked really well the downside"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2005.112,"endTime":2009.062,"body":"of it was back in the day."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2009.562,"endTime":2011.922,"body":"You know, sales jobs were prolific."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2011.922,"endTime":2015.942,"body":"I mean, the lots and lots they would"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2011.922,"endTime":2015.942,"body":"say, I'm not gonna be here long enough"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2015.942,"endTime":2017.622,"body":"to see the rest of my commission."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2017.622,"endTime":2017.802,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2017.892,"endTime":2019.572,"body":"Why don't I get everything now?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2019.902,"endTime":2022.332,"body":"And we're like, That's exactly why"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2019.902,"endTime":2022.332,"body":"not, because you're gonna promise"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2022.337,"endTime":2023.982,"body":"the earth sure that we can't deliver."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2023.982,"endTime":2025.452,"body":"You'll collect your money and go."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2025.457,"endTime":2025.872,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2026.292,"endTime":2027.072,"body":"So, yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2027.072,"endTime":2030.892,"body":"So those are the two points I wanna make"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2027.072,"endTime":2030.892,"body":"about this, this, this particular topic."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2030.892,"endTime":2036.052,"body":"Well, this, that's exactly the same reason"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2030.892,"endTime":2036.052,"body":"why in, in the working backwards Amazon"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2036.057,"endTime":2039.952,"body":"book, like the executive incentives,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2036.057,"endTime":2039.952,"body":"like none of them are short term."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2040.402,"endTime":2042.442,"body":"None of the executive"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2040.402,"endTime":2042.442,"body":"incentives are short term."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2042.442,"endTime":2046.247,"body":"They're all in company stock, which"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2042.442,"endTime":2046.247,"body":"is realize over a longer term, I mean,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2046.247,"endTime":2048.467,"body":"I guess you can get companies stock"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2046.247,"endTime":2048.467,"body":"and sell it immediately or whatever,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2048.467,"endTime":2050.167,"body":"but I mean why would you do that?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2050.172,"endTime":2050.677,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2051.057,"endTime":2053.137,"body":"You never vested that"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2051.057,"endTime":2053.137,"body":"at that point either."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2053.137,"endTime":2057.877,"body":"I mean, like any stock, any stock"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2053.137,"endTime":2057.877,"body":"you wouldn't do that with because"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2057.877,"endTime":2061.537,"body":"it's stock you know that time and"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2057.877,"endTime":2061.537,"body":"market is better than everything else."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2061.617,"endTime":2065.387,"body":"The reason I bring that up is I feel"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2061.617,"endTime":2065.387,"body":"about the same thing I feel about the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2065.597,"endTime":2070.067,"body":"Amazon giving their executive stock"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2065.597,"endTime":2070.067,"body":"the idea that it's long term you need"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2070.067,"endTime":2071.207,"body":"to commit to the company long term."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2071.207,"endTime":2074.417,"body":"You, you're not just looking in, like"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2071.207,"endTime":2074.417,"body":"this typical sales guy comes in and he is"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2074.467,"endTime":2076.147,"body":", six months I'm looking for another job."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2076.177,"endTime":2076.267,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2076.267,"endTime":2079.807,"body":"Because like, why would I try to sell"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2076.267,"endTime":2079.807,"body":"anything when yourself is I gotta sell"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2079.807,"endTime":2083.557,"body":"it, but then I gotta kind of shepherd it"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2079.807,"endTime":2083.557,"body":"through the adoption process and I gotta"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2083.557,"endTime":2087.487,"body":"make sure that there's engagement and I"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2083.557,"endTime":2087.487,"body":"gotta work with maybe a sales engineer"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2087.487,"endTime":2091.747,"body":"or product people or whatever to make"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2087.487,"endTime":2091.747,"body":"sure the software is easy to use, easy"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2091.747,"endTime":2093.577,"body":"to start using, you know what I mean?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2093.727,"endTime":2094.597,"body":"To adopt at the customer."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2094.597,"endTime":2096.397,"body":"They're kind of invested"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2094.597,"endTime":2096.397,"body":"in all that kind of stuff."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2096.402,"endTime":2096.577,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2096.757,"endTime":2096.907,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2096.957,"endTime":2098.217,"body":"The pushback on this one."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2098.367,"endTime":2103.967,"body":"It's, it's, It's very superficial"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2098.367,"endTime":2103.967,"body":"in my opinion, but it is pushback is"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2104.237,"endTime":2107.357,"body":"I can just jump to another company"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2104.237,"endTime":2107.357,"body":"where they they gimme my incentive"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2107.387,"endTime":2110.087,"body":"like as soon as the paper's signed,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2107.387,"endTime":2110.087,"body":"as soon as the ink is, while the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2110.087,"endTime":2112.427,"body":"ink is still wet, I'm getting paid."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2112.927,"endTime":2114.067,"body":"True, Very true."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2114.072,"endTime":2117.957,"body":"But you won't be there long because"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2114.072,"endTime":2117.957,"body":"this is gonna be self-fulfilling."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2117.962,"endTime":2118.197,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2118.197,"endTime":2119.217,"body":"So you won't be there long."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2119.367,"endTime":2119.517,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2119.517,"endTime":2120.267,"body":"You'll move on."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2120.267,"endTime":2121.347,"body":"Nobody will be there long."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2121.347,"endTime":2121.557,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2121.617,"endTime":2125.067,"body":"But you know, I think as we're talking"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2121.617,"endTime":2125.067,"body":"about this, this incentives issue here,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2125.567,"endTime":2131.897,"body":"imagine for a second if the way the sales"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2125.567,"endTime":2131.897,"body":"organizations incented, the salespeople"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2131.897,"endTime":2137.217,"body":"are incented, was mirrored in the way"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2131.897,"endTime":2137.217,"body":"your delivery people are incented as well."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2137.222,"endTime":2137.397,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2137.697,"endTime":2137.757,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2137.757,"endTime":2138.027,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2138.177,"endTime":2141.507,"body":"So if you do that, what"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2138.177,"endTime":2141.507,"body":"happens in the long run?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2141.557,"endTime":2145.072,"body":"I would be remiss in not mentioning"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2141.557,"endTime":2145.072,"body":"this, what would happen in the long run."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2145.572,"endTime":2148.962,"body":", the customer is happy because"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2145.572,"endTime":2148.962,"body":"the sales people didn't promise"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2148.962,"endTime":2150.402,"body":"what could not be delivered."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2150.792,"endTime":2153.732,"body":"They stayed throughout the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2150.792,"endTime":2153.732,"body":"process with the customer."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2154.232,"endTime":2157.172,"body":"The delivery organization is"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2154.232,"endTime":2157.172,"body":"happy because of what I just said."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2157.172,"endTime":2157.262,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2157.667,"endTime":2160.052,"body":", they didn't have to deliver"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2157.667,"endTime":2160.052,"body":"what could not be delivered."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2160.057,"endTime":2160.652,"body":"Right, Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2160.652,"endTime":2165.662,"body":"So it was real, They could do it"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2160.652,"endTime":2165.662,"body":"piecemeal, make sure that they're"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2165.662,"endTime":2168.917,"body":"organized they're actually involved"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2165.662,"endTime":2168.917,"body":"with the customer throughout."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2168.917,"endTime":2170.177,"body":"So they're learning about the needs."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2170.177,"endTime":2170.807,"body":"And inspecting."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2170.812,"endTime":2171.347,"body":"And adapting."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2171.587,"endTime":2171.707,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2171.707,"endTime":2173.237,"body":"That's the agile angle here."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2173.737,"endTime":2178.357,"body":"Long term, what will happen is you"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2173.737,"endTime":2178.357,"body":"will have loyalty from that customer."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2178.387,"endTime":2179.977,"body":"You'll have repeat business."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2180.037,"endTime":2180.337,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2180.397,"endTime":2181.867,"body":"And you would have great references."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2181.872,"endTime":2182.067,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2182.567,"endTime":2186.827,"body":", that sounds all great and utopian and"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2182.567,"endTime":2186.827,"body":"everything, but to your point, sales"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2186.827,"endTime":2188.657,"body":"people do not wanna wait that long."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2188.837,"endTime":2191.327,"body":"Typically, they want, they"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2188.837,"endTime":2191.327,"body":"want their commission now."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2191.327,"endTime":2194.932,"body":"They want I get it, but like, do you,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2191.327,"endTime":2194.932,"body":"do you wanna be part of something that's"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2195.032,"endTime":2196.112,"body":"do you wanna be part of something big?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2196.112,"endTime":2196.982,"body":"Do you wanna build something big?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2196.992,"endTime":2200.082,"body":"If you have a happy customers, And"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2196.992,"endTime":2200.082,"body":"you're getting great references."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2200.582,"endTime":2202.592,"body":"Aren't you now in the realm of"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2200.582,"endTime":2202.592,"body":"the marketing department, but"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2202.592,"endTime":2205.712,"body":"like, Hey, do you are, do you"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2202.592,"endTime":2205.712,"body":"really enjoy using our software?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2205.712,"endTime":2208.652,"body":"Tell, tell me about how it helps"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2205.712,"endTime":2208.652,"body":"you and then to sit down with"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2208.652,"endTime":2210.242,"body":"them and get some testimonials."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2210.302,"endTime":2216.132,"body":"I think if you are lucky enough"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2210.302,"endTime":2216.132,"body":"to really be solving real problems"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2216.132,"endTime":2219.032,"body":"for a customer like now Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2219.037,"endTime":2221.107,"body":"I think your marketing department"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2219.037,"endTime":2221.107,"body":"should be doing back flips"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2221.107,"endTime":2222.337,"body":"and should be promoting that."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2222.342,"endTime":2222.857,"body":"Well, yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2222.877,"endTime":2224.017,"body":"You know, like the sound of music."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2224.022,"endTime":2227.197,"body":"They should be singing it from ev"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2224.022,"endTime":2227.197,"body":"from every corner of every hill."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2227.287,"endTime":2229.487,"body":"Yeah that, that people"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2227.287,"endTime":2229.487,"body":"are doing a good job."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2229.527,"endTime":2232.017,"body":"But you know, how often have"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2229.527,"endTime":2232.017,"body":"you, have you seen that though?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2232.047,"endTime":2234.847,"body":"You know, how often have you"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2232.047,"endTime":2234.847,"body":"seen the hills are alive  it's"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2234.847,"endTime":2238.657,"body":"rare because of that short term"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2234.847,"endTime":2238.657,"body":"versus long term thinking, Right?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2238.657,"endTime":2238.807,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2238.837,"endTime":2242.827,"body":"Where short term always,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2238.837,"endTime":2242.827,"body":"nearly always trumps."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2243.327,"endTime":2246.167,"body":"Long I'm glad you went there cuz I"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2243.327,"endTime":2246.167,"body":"wasn't gonna go there cuz I was like,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2246.167,"endTime":2249.197,"body":"Oh, the marketing people have even"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2246.167,"endTime":2249.197,"body":"shorter tenure than the sales people."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2249.197,"endTime":2249.707,"body":"They do."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2250.027,"endTime":2250.717,"body":"They do."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2250.787,"endTime":2251.147,"body":"They do."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2251.147,"endTime":2255.337,"body":"I a lot of it, A lot of the times"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2251.147,"endTime":2255.337,"body":"it might I'm positing again, it"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2255.337,"endTime":2259.327,"body":"might be due to frustration because"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2255.337,"endTime":2259.327,"body":"they kind of caught between the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2259.327,"endTime":2263.887,"body":"customer and the sales organization"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2259.327,"endTime":2263.887,"body":"or the actual organization itself."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2263.887,"endTime":2264.577,"body":"Right, Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2264.582,"endTime":2266.407,"body":"Where they're saying, Hey, jump."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2266.407,"endTime":2267.307,"body":"Right, right now."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2267.367,"endTime":2267.547,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2267.727,"endTime":2270.427,"body":"We have these these quotas to meet."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2270.487,"endTime":2270.697,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2271.197,"endTime":2273.507,"body":"The incentives for the development teams?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2273.807,"endTime":2278.517,"body":"Usually the way that that lags"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2273.807,"endTime":2278.517,"body":"is you are all of your, We talked"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2278.517,"endTime":2279.537,"body":"about this on another podcast."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2279.747,"endTime":2284.887,"body":"Usually the way I've seen that, that"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2279.747,"endTime":2284.887,"body":"lags is all of your developers have"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2284.887,"endTime":2289.677,"body":"their one time yearly reviews, but"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2284.887,"endTime":2289.677,"body":"then they go back to their, sitting"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2289.682,"endTime":2292.887,"body":"on their Scrum team where they're just"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2289.682,"endTime":2292.887,"body":"a member and they contribute to the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2292.887,"endTime":2296.317,"body":"sprint goals and they work on things"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2292.887,"endTime":2296.317,"body":"together, and they maybe they're"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2296.317,"endTime":2298.107,"body":"doing xp, maybe they're actually Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2298.607,"endTime":2301.037,"body":"It'd be different if they were judge"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2298.607,"endTime":2301.037,"body":"measured as a team, but then they"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2301.037,"endTime":2305.417,"body":"also got some sort of individual,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2301.037,"endTime":2305.417,"body":"I don't know , one-on-one type of"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2305.477,"endTime":2308.647,"body":"counseling, kind of professional"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2305.477,"endTime":2308.647,"body":"development focused type of stuff."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2309.147,"endTime":2309.957,"body":"But it's, it's not that."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2309.957,"endTime":2314.247,"body":"It's, it's, it's, they are a team,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2309.957,"endTime":2314.247,"body":"but then the team is never counseled."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2314.277,"endTime":2314.637,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2314.817,"endTime":2317.907,"body":"I think the reward system"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2314.817,"endTime":2317.907,"body":"is, is very individualistic."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2317.907,"endTime":2322.687,"body":"Right, to your point and, and some people"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2317.907,"endTime":2322.687,"body":"have different clauses, I guess, right?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2322.697,"endTime":2323.867,"body":"For the reward mechanism."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2323.867,"endTime":2328.797,"body":"So so somebody might be told, Okay,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2323.867,"endTime":2328.797,"body":"this is your base salary, right?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2328.857,"endTime":2333.367,"body":"And then you have this 20% flex"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2328.857,"endTime":2333.367,"body":"pay, which means if you really"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2333.367,"endTime":2336.397,"body":"meet all your objectives, that we"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2333.367,"endTime":2336.397,"body":"will decide if you meet 'em or not."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2336.697,"endTime":2339.217,"body":"Then you could get up"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2336.697,"endTime":2339.217,"body":"to 20% of your salary."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2339.247,"endTime":2341.437,"body":"For example, I'm just"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2339.247,"endTime":2341.437,"body":"using 20 as an example."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2341.442,"endTime":2341.777,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2342.277,"endTime":2347.822,"body":"And so then when you look at that, who"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2342.277,"endTime":2347.822,"body":"is getting those versus who is not?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2348.147,"endTime":2352.307,"body":"I'm willing to say your, your dev"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2348.147,"endTime":2352.307,"body":"team members, your developers,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2352.307,"endTime":2354.347,"body":"testers, et cetera, probably aren't."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2354.527,"endTime":2359.597,"body":"Yeah your architects or your, if you're"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2354.527,"endTime":2359.597,"body":"at a progressive organization, maybe"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2359.597,"endTime":2363.647,"body":"your tech leads, but usually it's, it's"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2359.597,"endTime":2363.647,"body":"the managers that are getting those."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2363.737,"endTime":2363.887,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2363.947,"endTime":2367.217,"body":"So if the development team"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2363.947,"endTime":2367.217,"body":"delivers time and time again,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2367.717,"endTime":2369.607,"body":"then the managers get rewarded."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2370.107,"endTime":2372.387,"body":"There's definitely some"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2370.107,"endTime":2372.387,"body":"sort of imbalance here."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2372.477,"endTime":2372.567,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2372.607,"endTime":2373.377,"body":"That's, that's a problem, right?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2373.407,"endTime":2374.247,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2374.277,"endTime":2374.487,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2374.487,"endTime":2375.087,"body":"That's a problem."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2375.137,"endTime":2376.667,"body":"I'm also specifically thinking about it."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2377.027,"endTime":2381.037,"body":"Something that doesn't really fit in"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2377.027,"endTime":2381.037,"body":"this, in this topic but I wanted to, I"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2381.042,"endTime":2387.377,"body":"wanted to bring up anyway, which is if you"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2381.042,"endTime":2387.377,"body":"don't have a, a resource manager, Right,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2387.377,"endTime":2389.057,"body":"Like a typical piece people manager."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2389.207,"endTime":2389.417,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2389.597,"endTime":2392.897,"body":"If you don't have a people manager"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2389.597,"endTime":2392.897,"body":"making the determination of what"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2392.897,"endTime":2396.997,"body":"bonuses and what raises to give"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2392.897,"endTime":2396.997,"body":"people at the end of every year."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2397.497,"endTime":2399.907,"body":"Like if, if we're truly"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2397.497,"endTime":2399.907,"body":"doing incentives, team based."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2400.407,"endTime":2400.767,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2400.917,"endTime":2403.707,"body":"And, and you somehow can figure"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2400.917,"endTime":2403.707,"body":"out a way to delegate this to"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2403.707,"endTime":2405.807,"body":"be up to the team to deal with."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2406.257,"endTime":2409.672,"body":"And this assumes also that you don't"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2406.257,"endTime":2409.672,"body":"have , hiring managers that Matrix"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2409.672,"endTime":2413.272,"body":"environment that kinda loans people"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2409.672,"endTime":2413.272,"body":"out to, that that teams truly are like,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2413.302,"endTime":2418.752,"body":"instead of the matrix environment that"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2413.302,"endTime":2418.752,"body":"where like resources or loan, I'm gonna"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2418.842,"endTime":2420.702,"body":"loan you my stapler for a couple weeks."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2420.792,"endTime":2420.942,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2420.942,"endTime":2421.692,"body":"Research it alone."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2421.722,"endTime":2421.902,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2421.932,"endTime":2423.432,"body":"Copy paper stapler."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2423.432,"endTime":2423.552,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2423.602,"endTime":2427.162,"body":"The people belong to teams and"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2423.602,"endTime":2427.162,"body":"they, the groups the groupings,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2427.162,"endTime":2428.002,"body":"they're members of teams."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2428.062,"endTime":2432.232,"body":"They're not really like members of other,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2428.062,"endTime":2432.232,"body":"there's not other organizations going on."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2432.502,"endTime":2434.062,"body":"There might be other communities going on."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2434.062,"endTime":2438.882,"body":"The people voluntarily join, but people"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2434.062,"endTime":2438.882,"body":"are employed at the company to be part of"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2438.882,"endTime":2441.042,"body":"that team That is their specific purpose."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2441.132,"endTime":2445.167,"body":"Whereas a truly decentralized type of"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2441.132,"endTime":2445.167,"body":"organization, large companies do this."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2445.167,"endTime":2448.907,"body":"Large companies have databases"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2445.167,"endTime":2448.907,"body":"like they buy, pay, salary and"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2448.907,"endTime":2449.987,"body":"pay information, stuff like that."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2449.987,"endTime":2453.017,"body":"And they have a a low point, a midpoint,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2449.987,"endTime":2453.017,"body":"high point for salary, stuff like that."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2453.517,"endTime":2457.287,"body":"I'm trying to envision in my head like"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2453.517,"endTime":2457.287,"body":"something that an HR person could do"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2457.287,"endTime":2462.647,"body":"on a team somehow would be you know,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2457.287,"endTime":2462.647,"body":"hey we've got this person on the team"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2462.647,"endTime":2468.387,"body":"and they're low, mid, high point in"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2462.647,"endTime":2468.387,"body":"the salary bands cuz assuming that the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2468.387,"endTime":2472.837,"body":"salary bands, maybe they're not hidden,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2468.387,"endTime":2472.837,"body":"but also maybe the company's not going"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2472.837,"endTime":2475.567,"body":"outta their way to say like, this"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2472.837,"endTime":2475.567,"body":"position makes exactly this much money."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2475.837,"endTime":2481.987,"body":"Like even if you just had the metric"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2475.837,"endTime":2481.987,"body":"of low, mid high to the salary"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2481.987,"endTime":2485.877,"body":"band, say, Hey, these people are"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2481.987,"endTime":2485.877,"body":"in the software engineering salary."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2486.377,"endTime":2490.577,"body":"And along the software engineering, salary"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2486.377,"endTime":2490.577,"body":"band, employee A, employee B, employee C,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2490.577,"endTime":2496.867,"body":"employee D, like A and B are both in the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2490.577,"endTime":2496.867,"body":"mid B is in the low and c is in the high"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2496.867,"endTime":2496.927,"body":"."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2496.867,"endTime":2496.927,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2497.257,"endTime":2501.397,"body":"And then when you come to some sort"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2497.257,"endTime":2501.397,"body":"of like 360 review where people rate"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2501.402,"endTime":2504.672,"body":"each other's performance I don't know"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2501.402,"endTime":2504.672,"body":"how you would distribute salary salary"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2504.722,"endTime":2506.147,"body":"uh bonuses, you know what I mean?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2506.147,"endTime":2506.657,"body":"That kind of stuff."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2506.662,"endTime":2509.657,"body":"I don't know how you'd distribute that"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2506.662,"endTime":2509.657,"body":"to the team to let them do it themselves,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2509.897,"endTime":2514.547,"body":"but also because companies like we kind"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2509.897,"endTime":2514.547,"body":"of talk about the need for control and"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2514.547,"endTime":2520.097,"body":"stuff like that, like this, I feel when"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2514.547,"endTime":2520.097,"body":"we cross this chasm, the very last thing"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2520.097,"endTime":2523.397,"body":"that'll be hanging on by a rope, like"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2520.097,"endTime":2523.397,"body":"down, hanging in the chasm somewhere will"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2523.397,"endTime":2525.737,"body":"be the exact amount of money people make."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2525.767,"endTime":2526.007,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2526.037,"endTime":2530.297,"body":"For working in a job role because"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2526.037,"endTime":2530.297,"body":"companies are, companies will fight"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2530.302,"endTime":2532.657,"body":"tooth and nail to, to, to not Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2532.657,"endTime":2533.017,"body":"To protect."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2533.017,"endTime":2534.377,"body":"Talk about the, to protect that."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2534.857,"endTime":2536.737,"body":"So if, is there a way you could."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2537.237,"endTime":2539.007,"body":"I don't know, some kind of"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2537.237,"endTime":2539.007,"body":"mechanism you could say, Oh,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2539.007,"endTime":2540.447,"body":"this person's in the low band."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2540.447,"endTime":2543.087,"body":"Well maybe we should bring them at"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2540.447,"endTime":2543.087,"body":"least up to the mid band or whatever."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2543.087,"endTime":2544.567,"body":"Like, I, I don't know."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2544.567,"endTime":2545.707,"body":"I think it can be done."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2545.927,"endTime":2548.227,"body":"I, I don't think this is"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2545.927,"endTime":2548.227,"body":"rocket science, honestly."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2548.227,"endTime":2554.077,"body":"I, I think a lot of it is just inertia"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2548.227,"endTime":2554.077,"body":"and old school thinking even among HR"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2554.077,"endTime":2556.357,"body":"people, that that is slightly changing."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2556.597,"endTime":2559.237,"body":"I've seen some rays of hope there,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2559.537,"endTime":2564.677,"body":"but for the majority of organizations"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2559.537,"endTime":2564.677,"body":"out there, it's to your point, yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2564.887,"endTime":2567.227,"body":"Protect what someone is making, right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2567.247,"endTime":2571.277,"body":"And, and leave it up to"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2567.247,"endTime":2571.277,"body":"the individual to rise up."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2571.577,"endTime":2575.767,"body":"And, and that's why there's so"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2571.577,"endTime":2575.767,"body":"much what's the word for this?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2575.797,"endTime":2579.772,"body":", lack, I guess innovation, people"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2575.797,"endTime":2579.772,"body":"wanting to better themselves"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2579.772,"endTime":2582.922,"body":"because they don't, they don't"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2579.772,"endTime":2582.922,"body":"know if this is gonna be worth it."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2583.202,"endTime":2587.492,"body":"Would I just not ride out my year or"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2583.202,"endTime":2587.492,"body":"two years and then just change jobs"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2587.492,"endTime":2590.822,"body":"cuz I can instantly go somewhere"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2587.492,"endTime":2590.822,"body":"else and get a $30,000 raise?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2591.322,"endTime":2596.592,"body":"What's ironic about this, in my view,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2591.322,"endTime":2596.592,"body":"is the same HR organization that is"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2596.592,"endTime":2601.182,"body":"not willing to invest in their own,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2596.592,"endTime":2601.182,"body":"people are willing to give others that"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2601.182,"endTime":2603.672,"body":"they're bringing in a $30,000 raise."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2603.672,"endTime":2603.762,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2604.262,"endTime":2605.762,"body":"That's insane."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2605.912,"endTime":2605.972,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2606.002,"endTime":2609.332,"body":"Because you've got someone new coming"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2606.002,"endTime":2609.332,"body":"in as opposed to someone who has domain"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2609.332,"endTime":2611.042,"body":"knowledge who's vested in your company."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2611.432,"endTime":2616.022,"body":"So I, I think it can be done though"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2611.432,"endTime":2616.022,"body":"to your point, but to do this, the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2616.022,"endTime":2620.642,"body":"essential thing that has to happen is"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2616.022,"endTime":2620.642,"body":"to let go of that control of saying, we"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2620.647,"endTime":2622.832,"body":"decide how much you make or you make."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2623.012,"endTime":2623.072,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2623.102,"endTime":2628.462,"body":"It's leave it up to the teams, the 360"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2623.102,"endTime":2628.462,"body":"that you mentioned, let the teams look at"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2628.612,"endTime":2630.712,"body":"each other and say, Look, how do we do?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2631.132,"endTime":2631.252,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2631.262,"endTime":2631.682,"body":"And."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2632.182,"endTime":2636.372,"body":"What will come out of that is that"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2632.182,"endTime":2636.372,"body":"those people that either are more"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2636.372,"endTime":2641.402,"body":"senior just because of their depth of"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2636.372,"endTime":2641.402,"body":"experience or those people that went"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2641.402,"endTime":2646.592,"body":"the extra mile, right, Those people"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2641.402,"endTime":2646.592,"body":"will be voted higher by their peers."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2646.952,"endTime":2652.412,"body":"And HR can easily come up with some sort"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2646.952,"endTime":2652.412,"body":"of a scale that says based on how they're"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2652.412,"endTime":2657.502,"body":"voted, is how we will peg their salary"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2652.412,"endTime":2657.502,"body":"increase per per year or whatever it is."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2657.832,"endTime":2658.132,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2658.632,"endTime":2663.272,"body":"Ideally though, what I would love"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2658.632,"endTime":2663.272,"body":"to see is bring that customer in"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2663.632,"endTime":2668.372,"body":"to that 360 and then make that"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2663.632,"endTime":2668.372,"body":"decision on a project by project"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2668.377,"endTime":2671.152,"body":"basis rather than on a yearly basis."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2671.152,"endTime":2673.012,"body":"Cuz sometimes you have bad times."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2673.017,"endTime":2676.652,"body":"Yeah and it's unfair to penalize"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2673.017,"endTime":2676.652,"body":"people that are good intentioned,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2676.772,"endTime":2680.962,"body":"very hardworking people, and"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2676.772,"endTime":2680.962,"body":"through no fault of their own things"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2680.962,"endTime":2682.492,"body":"didn't work out for a project."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2682.852,"endTime":2686.782,"body":"So that would be interesting to, to see"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2682.852,"endTime":2686.782,"body":"in real life you know, an organization"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2686.782,"endTime":2688.522,"body":"going through that kind of exercise."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2688.527,"endTime":2688.742,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2689.242,"endTime":2692.872,"body":"I could see you know, every sprint"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2689.242,"endTime":2692.872,"body":"I could see measuring that you know,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2693.322,"endTime":2697.202,"body":"basically every sprint review measuring"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2693.322,"endTime":2697.202,"body":"that or maybe it doesn't have to be tied"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2697.207,"endTime":2701.132,"body":"with the sprint review event, but no,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2697.207,"endTime":2701.132,"body":"every, basically at the end of every"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2701.162,"endTime":2703.002,"body":"iteration, taking that measurement."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2703.152,"endTime":2703.212,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2703.212,"endTime":2706.572,"body":"So at the end of the year, assuming"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2703.212,"endTime":2706.572,"body":"you're doing two sprints or whatever"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2706.732,"endTime":2711.167,"body":"you've got 24, 26 measuring points,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2706.732,"endTime":2711.167,"body":"you have somewhere around 20"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2711.257,"endTime":2716.177,"body":"some measuring points per person,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2711.257,"endTime":2716.177,"body":"so you have a fair bit of data."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2716.522,"endTime":2720.282,"body":"Per person that you're"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2716.522,"endTime":2720.282,"body":"HR  can come away with."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2720.342,"endTime":2720.522,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2720.852,"endTime":2725.462,"body":"And make their determination, your team"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2720.852,"endTime":2725.462,"body":"even if everyone contributes their piece."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2725.692,"endTime":2729.832,"body":"And it's just kept separately for"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2725.692,"endTime":2729.832,"body":"one person to make the determination."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2729.862,"endTime":2733.402,"body":"I, I feel at least then the one"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2729.862,"endTime":2733.402,"body":"person that's making the determination"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2733.402,"endTime":2736.912,"body":"is making the determination based"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2733.402,"endTime":2736.912,"body":"off of some data as opposed to how"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2736.912,"endTime":2743.562,"body":"I've seen it done, which is whoever"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2736.912,"endTime":2743.562,"body":"quote owns all the quote resources."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2743.592,"endTime":2743.802,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2744.282,"endTime":2746.967,"body":"Just decides who they like the best"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2744.282,"endTime":2746.967,"body":"and who they who they want to quit"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2746.972,"endTime":2748.197,"body":"and who they don't care if they quit."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2748.647,"endTime":2749.457,"body":"Absolutely agree."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2749.697,"endTime":2753.807,"body":"You know, I think the four, this"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2749.697,"endTime":2753.807,"body":"sort of mechanism to work, one thing"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2753.807,"endTime":2758.667,"body":"that is paramount is to keep team"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2753.807,"endTime":2758.667,"body":"churn to a minimum because it isn't"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2758.667,"endTime":2760.347,"body":"just the person who leaves, right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2760.352,"endTime":2763.887,"body":"It, it is the fact that they left and"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2760.352,"endTime":2763.887,"body":"now the team is back into forming,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2764.187,"endTime":2765.567,"body":"so it's gonna impact everybody."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2765.777,"endTime":2768.387,"body":"So again, that can be factored in by that."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2768.687,"endTime":2770.127,"body":"Person who is looking at this?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2770.187,"endTime":2771.617,"body":"Oh boy, we, we Oh, wow."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2771.617,"endTime":2774.337,"body":"What a huge hole in the topic"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2771.617,"endTime":2774.337,"body":"that we were talking about."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2774.337,"endTime":2777.397,"body":"Like we completely forgot to"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2774.337,"endTime":2777.397,"body":"talk about when management"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2777.397,"endTime":2778.657,"body":"keeps shuffling your teams."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2778.657,"endTime":2779.917,"body":"Like that's a whole different podcast."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2779.917,"endTime":2780.547,"body":"But yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2780.607,"endTime":2784.082,"body":"When like, Agile doesn't work here,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2780.607,"endTime":2784.082,"body":"but also we don't have teams that"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2784.082,"endTime":2785.852,"body":"are committed to working on products."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2785.882,"endTime":2786.982,"body":"Oh, I know."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2786.987,"endTime":2787.862,"body":"We don't even have products."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2787.952,"endTime":2793.522,"body":"But if you're not willing to designate"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2787.952,"endTime":2793.522,"body":"teams, meaning a group of individuals,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2794.022,"endTime":2796.692,"body":"there's a concept that I'm hearing now"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2794.022,"endTime":2796.692,"body":"about fluid teams where people just"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2797.172,"endTime":2799.747,"body":"flip over the place all the time.,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2797.172,"endTime":2799.747,"body":"if you're not dedicated to having"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2800.247,"endTime":2806.417,"body":"dedicated individuals who comprise a"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2800.247,"endTime":2806.417,"body":"dedicated team working on a dedicated"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2806.567,"endTime":2812.247,"body":"product or set of products, you're"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2806.567,"endTime":2812.247,"body":"gonna have a big, big difficulty"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2812.277,"endTime":2813.957,"body":"implementing Agile for the first."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2813.957,"endTime":2816.237,"body":"You know, like I could"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2813.957,"endTime":2816.237,"body":"even be convinced that."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2816.627,"endTime":2820.167,"body":"Once you're doing that, Well,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2816.627,"endTime":2820.167,"body":"the, what I just said, dedicated"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2820.167,"endTime":2822.177,"body":"people on teams that don't change."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2822.677,"endTime":2826.032,"body":"Knocking out products that are"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2822.677,"endTime":2826.032,"body":"dedicated to those teams and no once"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2826.032,"endTime":2830.022,"body":"you do that, then maybe you can start"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2826.032,"endTime":2830.022,"body":"shifting people around and making"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2830.027,"endTime":2831.462,"body":"your teams a bit more fluid over time."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2831.672,"endTime":2836.292,"body":"Once you've proven that you know how to"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2831.672,"endTime":2836.292,"body":"do the, the first right set of things."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2836.352,"endTime":2836.562,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2836.562,"endTime":2837.942,"body":"Cuz you would've matured by then."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2837.942,"endTime":2838.332,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2838.832,"endTime":2843.242,"body":"Sadly though, what I see all the time is"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2838.832,"endTime":2843.242,"body":"people that are shared across different"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2843.242,"endTime":2846.092,"body":"teams, different projects unrelated often."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2846.092,"endTime":2846.422,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2846.722,"endTime":2852.092,"body":"And then they're measured like, okay,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2846.722,"endTime":2852.092,"body":"how did you do against your,  personal"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2852.092,"endTime":2856.042,"body":"development plan or whatever, whatever"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2852.092,"endTime":2856.042,"body":"the heck it is you cannot do that."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2856.222,"endTime":2858.802,"body":"Everybody has the row on that boat to."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2859.302,"endTime":2862.632,"body":"So if you're gonna put somebody"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2859.302,"endTime":2862.632,"body":"in some of the role for part of"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2862.632,"endTime":2866.962,"body":"their time and then say you, you're"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2862.632,"endTime":2866.962,"body":"10 hours here and 30 hours here."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2867.082,"endTime":2871.072,"body":"But in reality it's a lot less than that"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2867.082,"endTime":2871.072,"body":"because of context switching and all that."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2871.132,"endTime":2871.402,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2871.462,"endTime":2873.952,"body":"It just works kind of culture"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2871.462,"endTime":2873.952,"body":"to what we're trying to do here."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2873.957,"endTime":2877.012,"body":"Five hours on project A,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2873.957,"endTime":2877.012,"body":"five hours on project B."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2877.072,"endTime":2877.162,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2877.162,"endTime":2878.512,"body":"10 hours on project C."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2878.572,"endTime":2878.902,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2879.352,"endTime":2883.162,"body":", you add up all that and you're"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2879.352,"endTime":2883.162,"body":"working over 130% and more."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2883.162,"endTime":2883.942,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2883.942,"endTime":2883.943,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2883.943,"endTime":2883.944,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2883.972,"endTime":2886.732,"body":"But those are you those, But I,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2883.972,"endTime":2886.732,"body":"I can tell you in like in large"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2886.732,"endTime":2890.212,"body":"organizations, those are your rockstar."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2890.242,"endTime":2891.202,"body":"Oh yeah, for sure."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2891.207,"endTime":2895.187,"body":"They have potential management, promotion,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2891.207,"endTime":2895.187,"body":"potential written all over them."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2895.187,"endTime":2897.547,"body":"They're willing to be your rockstar."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2897.547,"endTime":2901.482,"body":"Those, those are organizations"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2897.547,"endTime":2901.482,"body":"that that reward having an over"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2901.487,"endTime":2903.162,"body":"busy calendar as a good thing."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2903.162,"endTime":2904.872,"body":"60 plus hours per week."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2905.142,"endTime":2905.922,"body":"Rock stars."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2905.952,"endTime":2906.252,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2906.752,"endTime":2910.077,"body":"We've gone so far from Agile doesn't"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2906.752,"endTime":2910.077,"body":"work here the last thing we have is"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2910.167,"endTime":2913.487,"body":"concept of I'll, I'll, well, I'll let"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2910.167,"endTime":2913.487,"body":"you, I'll let you deal with this one"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2913.487,"endTime":2914.777,"body":"on because Oh, no, it's a great one."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2914.927,"endTime":2919.127,"body":"It's, it's the concept of being"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2914.927,"endTime":2919.127,"body":"hoodwinked into adopting agile."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2919.247,"endTime":2920.237,"body":"Oh, yes."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2920.242,"endTime":2923.627,"body":"Agile doesn't work here because we were,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2920.242,"endTime":2923.627,"body":"we were tricked in the first place."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2923.687,"endTime":2924.407,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2924.412,"endTime":2924.857,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2924.862,"endTime":2930.117,"body":"So again, this is something that I've seen"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2924.862,"endTime":2930.117,"body":"way too often going into organizations"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2930.117,"endTime":2931.227,"body":"and saying, Agile doesn't work here."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2931.227,"endTime":2932.157,"body":"So what did you try?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2932.157,"endTime":2933.657,"body":"Well, we were told if we do these."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2934.157,"endTime":2934.817,"body":"We'd be agile."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2935.297,"endTime":2939.227,"body":"And I look at that and go, Yeah,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2935.297,"endTime":2939.227,"body":"you were sold a bill goods there."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2939.527,"endTime":2941.897,"body":"So hoodwinked is a good, is a good phrase."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2942.107,"endTime":2947.577,"body":"You had somebody who was maybe you know,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2942.107,"endTime":2947.577,"body":"SPCT, SPC, whatever, It doesn't matter."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2947.577,"endTime":2948.777,"body":"It doesn't have to be that religion."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2949.017,"endTime":2949.857,"body":"Could be any religion."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2949.862,"endTime":2952.287,"body":"Someone who makes money, right?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2952.467,"endTime":2955.287,"body":"Who has a vested interest in the avenue."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2955.287,"endTime":2960.237,"body":"They're pointing you down and they come"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2955.287,"endTime":2960.237,"body":"in and say, If you do this, thou shall"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2960.242,"endTime":2962.787,"body":"be agile, and here's the real kicker."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2963.177,"endTime":2964.827,"body":"How long did they hang around?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2965.217,"endTime":2966.957,"body":"They don't stay with you"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2965.217,"endTime":2966.957,"body":"shoulder to shoulder."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2966.957,"endTime":2968.427,"body":"They simply say, Do this."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2968.432,"endTime":2969.657,"body":"Trust me on this."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2969.837,"endTime":2970.767,"body":"I'm gonna train."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2971.082,"endTime":2974.902,"body":"Everybody in your organization, in"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2971.082,"endTime":2974.902,"body":"the delivery side of things in this"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2974.902,"endTime":2979.552,"body":"particular way of working and once"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2974.902,"endTime":2979.552,"body":"I've done that, you're gonna be agile."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2980.032,"endTime":2981.772,"body":"You know, when they do"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2980.032,"endTime":2981.772,"body":"that, they leave mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2982.012,"endTime":2985.402,"body":"because they've made their money,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2982.012,"endTime":2985.402,"body":"they make their money based on"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2985.732,"endTime":2987.202,"body":"certifying people, et cetera."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2987.502,"endTime":2990.082,"body":"So this is what I mean"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2987.502,"endTime":2990.082,"body":"by being hoodwinked."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2990.582,"endTime":2994.532,"body":"The other way I'd say people"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2990.582,"endTime":2994.532,"body":"get hoodwinked into it is the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2994.532,"endTime":2995.672,"body":"product side of the house."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2995.702,"endTime":2999.752,"body":"People come in and say, Oh,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":2995.702,"endTime":2999.752,"body":"you need this, you need this."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3000.082,"endTime":3002.392,"body":"And oftentimes they have the lingo."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3002.692,"endTime":3007.042,"body":"So the organization say, Oh, ah,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3002.692,"endTime":3007.042,"body":"he's credit, or she is credit, Right?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3007.372,"endTime":3010.852,"body":"They talk about domain based design."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3010.882,"endTime":3012.262,"body":"Wow, what is that?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3012.602,"endTime":3013.142,"body":"So they get."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3013.642,"endTime":3016.642,"body":"People in the room and they talk"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3013.642,"endTime":3016.642,"body":"about the domain based design."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3016.642,"endTime":3019.612,"body":"At the end of the day, it"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3016.642,"endTime":3019.612,"body":"isn't anything different."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3019.612,"endTime":3023.032,"body":"It's just cast the same"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3019.612,"endTime":3023.032,"body":"thing in different language."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3023.362,"endTime":3026.032,"body":"And they say, if you're"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3023.362,"endTime":3026.032,"body":"doing this, you're agile."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3026.062,"endTime":3026.842,"body":"And then they're gone."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3027.232,"endTime":3032.412,"body":"My whole point of both of these examples"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3027.232,"endTime":3032.412,"body":"is these people that come in aren't"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3032.412,"endTime":3038.012,"body":"staying with the organization long"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3032.412,"endTime":3038.012,"body":"enough for them to actually start the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3038.012,"endTime":3042.607,"body":"turnaround process let alone actually"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3038.012,"endTime":3042.607,"body":"mature down that path, they're long gone."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3042.697,"endTime":3042.877,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3042.907,"endTime":3044.137,"body":"So that's what I mean."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3044.137,"endTime":3045.637,"body":"You've been sold a bill of goods."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3045.637,"endTime":3050.047,"body":"You've been hoodwinked into"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3045.637,"endTime":3050.047,"body":"agility, and just because they"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3050.047,"endTime":3053.497,"body":"came in, no matter how credible"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3050.047,"endTime":3053.497,"body":"they're, you think you're agile now."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3053.587,"endTime":3053.917,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3053.917,"endTime":3055.327,"body":"Because you paid a lot of money."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3055.537,"endTime":3058.237,"body":"And this is where it's a double"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3055.537,"endTime":3058.237,"body":"edged sword for leadership too."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3058.242,"endTime":3062.967,"body":"Because if a leader brought in somebody"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3058.242,"endTime":3062.967,"body":"and paid them a ton of money to come"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3062.967,"endTime":3064.597,"body":"in and say, This is what we need to do."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3065.097,"endTime":3065.497,"body":". Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3065.582,"endTime":3067.137,"body":", and then they're gone."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3067.447,"endTime":3070.837,"body":"That leader doesn't wanna be the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3067.447,"endTime":3070.837,"body":"first one to say, Hey, look, I failed."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3070.897,"endTime":3072.367,"body":"I shouldn't have brought that person in."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3072.367,"endTime":3072.847,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3072.877,"endTime":3075.062,"body":"It's a sunk  cost fallacy"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3072.877,"endTime":3075.062,"body":"is actually what it is."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3075.062,"endTime":3078.292,"body":"But to me, it's a fixed mindset"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3075.062,"endTime":3078.292,"body":"kicking pretty hard to say."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3078.592,"endTime":3081.482,"body":"Well, I can't, I can't"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3078.592,"endTime":3081.482,"body":"admit failure on this one."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3081.482,"endTime":3085.232,"body":"I can't admit that I spent all this"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3081.482,"endTime":3085.232,"body":"money to send my product people to"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3085.232,"endTime":3086.732,"body":"product school or whatever I don't know."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3087.152,"endTime":3089.662,"body":"Product school, I don't know if there's"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3087.152,"endTime":3089.662,"body":"a thing no, I know what you mean though."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3089.662,"endTime":3094.482,"body":"You know, I sent half of my developers"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3089.662,"endTime":3094.482,"body":"at csm, two days csm, and then told them"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3094.487,"endTime":3098.862,"body":"they can't talk to anybody leadership,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3094.487,"endTime":3098.862,"body":"and told 'em I wasn't gonna change any"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3098.862,"endTime":3100.962,"body":"of the centralization of my organization."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3101.462,"endTime":3103.292,"body":"So they can't, basically"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3101.462,"endTime":3103.292,"body":"can't do their job."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3103.562,"endTime":3106.882,"body":"And you know, now suddenly I,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3103.562,"endTime":3106.882,"body":"I gotta say, Hey, we're agile."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3106.932,"endTime":3108.812,"body":"I gotta try to sell that we are agile."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3108.872,"endTime":3111.632,"body":"You know, even though,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3108.872,"endTime":3111.632,"body":"all we've clearly done."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3112.132,"endTime":3116.462,"body":"Is a change from labels you know,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3112.132,"endTime":3116.462,"body":"change our project management office"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3116.462,"endTime":3119.222,"body":"to program management office, but we're"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3116.462,"endTime":3119.222,"body":"doing everything exactly the same."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3119.402,"endTime":3123.692,"body":"But, but you know, they"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3119.402,"endTime":3123.692,"body":"brought in some big, big names."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3123.692,"endTime":3128.592,"body":"They brought in the likes of McKinzie"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3123.692,"endTime":3128.592,"body":"or Bain that came in and said, Here's"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3128.592,"endTime":3130.362,"body":"a model, here's a sevens model."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3130.572,"endTime":3135.582,"body":"And they, and they got ordained into this"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3130.572,"endTime":3135.582,"body":"model, and then the consultants have gone."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3135.612,"endTime":3135.852,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3136.122,"endTime":3136.572,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3136.992,"endTime":3138.872,"body":"So now it's okay."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3138.962,"endTime":3140.072,"body":"It's time to implement."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3140.312,"endTime":3142.382,"body":"Oh, there's nobody there"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3140.312,"endTime":3142.382,"body":"to help you with that."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3142.882,"endTime":3143.272,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3143.452,"endTime":3146.607,"body":"But but we must be agile because"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3143.452,"endTime":3146.607,"body":"we paid that organization, the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3146.607,"endTime":3148.047,"body":"consultants, a lot of money."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3148.137,"endTime":3148.227,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3148.727,"endTime":3151.697,"body":"And we cannot be seen as"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3148.727,"endTime":3151.697,"body":"having failed as leaders."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3152.207,"endTime":3156.837,"body":"The reason I don't have great suggestions"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3152.207,"endTime":3156.837,"body":"here is because my experience in this"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3156.837,"endTime":3159.457,"body":"category was exactly what you just said."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3159.507,"endTime":3164.157,"body":"Some s SPC came in at a company I was at"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3159.507,"endTime":3164.157,"body":"and the company was trying to figure out"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3164.157,"endTime":3166.147,"body":"agile which was a bottom up approach."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3166.147,"endTime":3169.237,"body":"It wasn't really sponsored by anyone"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3166.147,"endTime":3169.237,"body":"you know, C level or whatever."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3169.717,"endTime":3175.687,"body":"And the entire executive team was"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3169.717,"endTime":3175.687,"body":"gone for what I swore was a whole"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3175.687,"endTime":3177.547,"body":"week, but I, maybe it was two days."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3177.797,"endTime":3181.397,"body":"And I'm pretty sure they all came back"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3177.797,"endTime":3181.397,"body":"with their safe, agile certifications."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3181.397,"endTime":3183.227,"body":"They all came back with their"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3181.397,"endTime":3183.227,"body":"little placards and they're"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3183.232,"endTime":3184.487,"body":"like, Look, we got placards."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3184.697,"endTime":3185.627,"body":"This is what we're gonna do now."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3185.627,"endTime":3188.237,"body":"We're gonna have trains and we're all"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3185.627,"endTime":3188.237,"body":"gonna jump on the train, choo-choo!"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3188.537,"endTime":3192.057,"body":"And we're gonna plan 12 weeks or whatever."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3192.287,"endTime":3193.157,"body":"No, it was 10 weeks."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3193.467,"endTime":3196.437,"body":". But the one one week was like"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3193.467,"endTime":3196.437,"body":"a, Yeah, the innovation sprint."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3196.437,"endTime":3197.187,"body":"Innovation sprint."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3197.187,"endTime":3197.367,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3197.367,"endTime":3197.577,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3197.607,"endTime":3199.317,"body":"But, but the innovation"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3197.607,"endTime":3199.317,"body":"sprint was not the beginning."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3199.317,"endTime":3203.302,"body":"It was at the end  but yeah, he's, Oh,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3199.317,"endTime":3203.302,"body":"our sprints are two weeks in length."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3203.302,"endTime":3207.262,"body":"We're gonna plan out five sprints and then"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3203.302,"endTime":3207.262,"body":"having an innovation sprint after the,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3207.562,"endTime":3209.542,"body":"after the fifth for total of 12 weeks."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3210.032,"endTime":3214.682,"body":"And as a middle manager in the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3210.032,"endTime":3214.682,"body":"organization, where my team members"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3214.682,"endTime":3216.792,"body":"were all part of different scrum teams."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3217.117,"endTime":3222.457,"body":"I remember f fighting a lot about"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3217.117,"endTime":3222.457,"body":"like, this is ridiculous cuz we don't"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3222.457,"endTime":3223.957,"body":"spend enough time in planning as it is."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3223.957,"endTime":3227.647,"body":"So you, whatever you plan the first"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3223.957,"endTime":3227.647,"body":"sprint, like the second, third"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3227.652,"endTime":3231.557,"body":"sprint is just gonna be doing all the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3227.652,"endTime":3231.557,"body":"rollover from the first sprint, right?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3231.557,"endTime":3236.457,"body":"And like, I have metrics to back it"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3231.557,"endTime":3236.457,"body":"up but any pushback against this?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3236.457,"endTime":3241.677,"body":"Cuz again, the entire executive team went"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3236.457,"endTime":3241.677,"body":"to the safe tra so people that normally"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3241.677,"endTime":3245.247,"body":"don't interact with software development"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3241.677,"endTime":3245.247,"body":"went to the safe training, the chief"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3245.247,"endTime":3250.497,"body":"marketing officer, the chief revenue"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3245.247,"endTime":3250.497,"body":"officer, the executive chief operations,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3250.797,"endTime":3253.957,"body":"they all went and they were told this"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3250.797,"endTime":3253.957,"body":"is how your product portfolio works and"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3253.957,"endTime":3255.997,"body":"this is how your development trains work."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3256.002,"endTime":3257.857,"body":"And this is this is the way it's done."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3258.357,"endTime":3262.287,"body":"So you, you plan your stuff and at the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3258.357,"endTime":3262.287,"body":"end of the train you get your release."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3262.662,"endTime":3267.892,"body":"So in the first sprint, we sat down"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3262.662,"endTime":3267.892,"body":"in our big room planning to plan"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3267.892,"endTime":3269.482,"body":"the, before the first sprint started."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3269.982,"endTime":3272.952,"body":"And it was an absolute"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3269.982,"endTime":3272.952,"body":"train wreck, pun intended."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3273.082,"endTime":3276.062,"body":"And nothing in the first"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3273.082,"endTime":3276.062,"body":"sprint was delivered."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3276.272,"endTime":3278.882,"body":"Because the leadership said"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3276.272,"endTime":3278.882,"body":"like, Here are the things you're"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3278.882,"endTime":3279.872,"body":"gonna do in the first sprint."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3280.372,"endTime":3282.922,"body":"Like they just dictated, Yeah,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3280.372,"endTime":3282.922,"body":"here the things you need to do."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3283.012,"endTime":3285.682,"body":"And then the first sprint was"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3283.012,"endTime":3285.682,"body":"like, build an entire mobile app."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3285.682,"endTime":3289.342,"body":"It was just ridiculous things that"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3285.682,"endTime":3289.342,"body":"you would never it was obvious to me"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3289.342,"endTime":3293.582,"body":"at the time that it wasn't something"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3289.342,"endTime":3293.582,"body":"that could be done but even if it could"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3293.582,"endTime":3297.422,"body":"have been done in a sprint worth of"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3293.582,"endTime":3297.422,"body":"work, it was putting a whole lot of"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3297.572,"endTime":3300.752,"body":"development on one single developer."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3300.852,"endTime":3302.082,"body":"Build an Android mobile app."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3302.487,"endTime":3306.077,"body":"Okay, well one, the company has"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3302.487,"endTime":3306.077,"body":"one Android mobile developer."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3306.287,"endTime":3309.317,"body":"So one Android mobile developer"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3306.287,"endTime":3309.317,"body":"is gonna go off in a corner"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3309.587,"endTime":3311.717,"body":"by himself for a whole sprint."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3312.217,"endTime":3314.287,"body":"And at the end of the sprint,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3312.217,"endTime":3314.287,"body":"he's gonna come out and he's gonna"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3314.287,"endTime":3315.607,"body":"hold the tablets above his head."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3315.607,"endTime":3317.227,"body":"And here's what I produced."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3317.227,"endTime":3318.577,"body":"That, that's you Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3318.787,"endTime":3319.357,"body":"Ridiculous."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3319.357,"endTime":3319.627,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3319.627,"endTime":3320.047,"body":"It is."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3320.077,"endTime":3324.427,"body":"But the idea was the executives"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3320.077,"endTime":3324.427,"body":"were so unwilling to hear"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3324.577,"endTime":3327.567,"body":"any detractors to their plan."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3328.057,"endTime":3331.357,"body":"we went back, we got this"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3328.057,"endTime":3331.357,"body":"placard, we paid all this money,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3331.807,"endTime":3333.187,"body":"We know it's going to work."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3333.307,"endTime":3334.117,"body":"Go do this."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3334.337,"endTime":3338.407,"body":"By the way, Did not train"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3334.337,"endTime":3338.407,"body":"anybody else in the company."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3338.767,"endTime":3342.717,"body":"Only the executives got trained"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3338.767,"endTime":3342.717,"body":"and came back and said, We're"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3342.717,"endTime":3348.057,"body":"gonna run a PI planning now and you"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3342.717,"endTime":3348.057,"body":"guys are going to deliver in PIs."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3348.557,"endTime":3352.977,"body":"So think about this that was my first"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3348.557,"endTime":3352.977,"body":"introduction to safe was somebody, some"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3353.007,"endTime":3356.867,"body":"SPC or somebody came in and not only sold"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3353.007,"endTime":3356.867,"body":"them on the training, you need to pay me"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3356.867,"endTime":3358.457,"body":"x thousands of dollars for this training."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3358.817,"endTime":3362.497,"body":"But also they pitched these executives"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3358.817,"endTime":3362.497,"body":"so well, they went back and tried"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3362.497,"endTime":3366.527,"body":"to change the whole company to whole"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3362.497,"endTime":3366.527,"body":"company mean just the development"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3366.527,"endTime":3369.527,"body":"department because no other department"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3366.527,"endTime":3369.527,"body":"of the company was changed by this."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3369.627,"endTime":3372.677,"body":", no other department was affected"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3369.627,"endTime":3372.677,"body":"by this only development."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3373.177,"endTime":3376.967,"body":"again, if you're talking about getting"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3373.177,"endTime":3376.967,"body":"hoodwinked, , this is probably a great"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3376.967,"endTime":3382.297,"body":"example about like they felt since Hey, we"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3376.967,"endTime":3382.297,"body":"pay good money to some consultant mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3382.537,"endTime":3386.457,"body":"and they said you guys should"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3382.537,"endTime":3386.457,"body":"be able to plan this PI and be"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3386.457,"endTime":3388.107,"body":"able to plan the next 12 weeks."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3388.167,"endTime":3389.822,"body":"And we told you what you need to do!"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3390.322,"endTime":3390.742,"body":", right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3390.747,"endTime":3391.792,"body":"It was a disaster."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3391.882,"endTime":3393.442,"body":"It was a da, a bunch of people left."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3393.472,"endTime":3393.802,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3393.807,"endTime":3395.302,"body":"It was a complete disaster."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3395.802,"endTime":3396.072,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3396.072,"endTime":3400.302,"body":"But you know, the people that brought"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3396.072,"endTime":3400.302,"body":"in the, the person who basically"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3400.512,"endTime":3405.282,"body":"launched this whole concept of"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3400.512,"endTime":3405.282,"body":"using safe, et cetera, and trained"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3405.282,"endTime":3408.542,"body":"everybody, they're not the ones"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3405.282,"endTime":3408.542,"body":"that would admit that they failed."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3408.572,"endTime":3408.842,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3408.842,"endTime":3410.162,"body":"That that's the problem."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3410.612,"endTime":3411.962,"body":"That they're not gonna admit that."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3411.962,"endTime":3415.442,"body":"Because if they admit that, that's"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3411.962,"endTime":3415.442,"body":"like, that's career suicide for them."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3415.442,"endTime":3415.682,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3415.832,"endTime":3416.072,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3416.077,"endTime":3416.912,"body":"So they won't do it."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3417.272,"endTime":3419.012,"body":"They'll just say, Well,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3417.272,"endTime":3419.012,"body":"we're gonna keep going."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3419.512,"endTime":3419.872,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3420.292,"endTime":3422.602,"body":"So we've done this,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3420.292,"endTime":3422.602,"body":"we're gonna keep going."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3422.607,"endTime":3422.932,"body":"Oh no."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3422.932,"endTime":3425.962,"body":"We don't have all the prerequisites"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3422.932,"endTime":3425.962,"body":"of how to make SAFe work."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3425.962,"endTime":3428.182,"body":"We don't have dedicated"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3425.962,"endTime":3428.182,"body":"people in all these roles."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3428.392,"endTime":3429.202,"body":"What's an RTE?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3429.202,"endTime":3430.132,"body":"We don't have one of those."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3430.162,"endTime":3430.252,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3430.402,"endTime":3433.252,"body":"Just find somebody with a pulse"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3430.402,"endTime":3433.252,"body":"and go, You're an RTE now."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3433.752,"endTime":3434.112,"body":". Right?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3434.172,"endTime":3439.532,"body":"And this poor person who gets nominated"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3434.172,"endTime":3439.532,"body":"to be an RTE has no idea what it means."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3439.592,"endTime":3439.652,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3439.712,"endTime":3441.182,"body":"Save a few Google searches."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3441.542,"endTime":3442.292,"body":"So guess what?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3442.352,"endTime":3443.522,"body":"It doesn't work."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3443.612,"endTime":3445.892,"body":"This is going back to our podcast topic."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3446.292,"endTime":3447.572,"body":"Agile doesn't work here."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3447.572,"endTime":3448.382,"body":"Well, guess what?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3448.382,"endTime":3453.032,"body":"It, it can't work there because you"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3448.382,"endTime":3453.032,"body":"really didn't invest in it properly."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3453.092,"endTime":3453.272,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3453.302,"endTime":3456.782,"body":"You are in that last example we've"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3453.302,"endTime":3456.782,"body":"been talking about last few minutes."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3457.202,"endTime":3462.712,"body":"You are hoodwinked into it by those"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3457.202,"endTime":3462.712,"body":"that have vested interests basically,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3462.712,"endTime":3468.057,"body":"you need to make sure that you bring"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3462.712,"endTime":3468.057,"body":"in people that do not have that, people"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3468.227,"endTime":3473.717,"body":"that are really looking at your problems"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3468.227,"endTime":3473.717,"body":"specifically, and they're agnostic of"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3473.777,"endTime":3478.807,"body":"a given framework, et cetera, a given"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3473.777,"endTime":3478.807,"body":"approach, and the hardest message for"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3478.807,"endTime":3483.157,"body":"you to swallow would be when they say,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3478.807,"endTime":3483.157,"body":"You're not ready yet for Agile anything."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3483.487,"endTime":3485.017,"body":"Forget SAFe, or whatever it is."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3485.022,"endTime":3485.617,"body":"You're not ready."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3485.947,"endTime":3486.367,"body":"You need to."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3486.867,"endTime":3488.847,"body":"Invest in these areas first."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3488.907,"endTime":3492.507,"body":". , I long for the day when I deliver"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3488.907,"endTime":3492.507,"body":"that message on my way out the"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3492.507,"endTime":3494.967,"body":"door because Yeah, I was gonna say"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3492.507,"endTime":3494.967,"body":"that it's the right thing to do."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3495.027,"endTime":3497.637,"body":"That would certainly be your way"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3495.027,"endTime":3497.637,"body":"out the door, both from the client"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3497.637,"endTime":3498.657,"body":"and from the consulting firm."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3498.657,"endTime":3501.267,"body":"Cause I can't think of a single"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3498.657,"endTime":3501.267,"body":"consulting firm that would ever"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3501.272,"endTime":3504.007,"body":"say Hey, Agile's not Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3504.007,"endTime":3507.937,"body":"For you in the current way"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3504.007,"endTime":3507.937,"body":"the organization is shaped"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3507.937,"endTime":3509.027,"body":"and operating, right?"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3509.257,"endTime":3511.327,"body":"Like this is, we're not"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3509.257,"endTime":3511.327,"body":"gonna take this contract."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3511.357,"endTime":3513.787,"body":"Like this is not it's not gonna"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3511.357,"endTime":3513.787,"body":"be successful in the long run."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3513.787,"endTime":3516.457,"body":"Well, if you're a company and you're"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3513.787,"endTime":3516.457,"body":"looking to hire somebody to do your"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3516.457,"endTime":3521.732,"body":"software development for you or whatever,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3516.457,"endTime":3521.732,"body":"or to try to teach you how to , do"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3522.122,"endTime":3525.351,"body":"agile , if you're trying to do that,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3522.122,"endTime":3525.351,"body":"I'd make sure that their incentives,"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3525.351,"endTime":3529.791,"body":"their pay, their milestones, whatever"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3525.351,"endTime":3529.791,"body":"it is, are tied to your success."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3529.791,"endTime":3529.881,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3529.881,"endTime":3530.631,"body":"Your success."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3530.636,"endTime":3530.781,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3530.831,"endTime":3536.311,"body":"Specifically your success with your"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3530.831,"endTime":3536.311,"body":"customers and your success in terms"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3536.316,"endTime":3540.091,"body":"of the efficiency and productivity"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3536.316,"endTime":3540.091,"body":"of your development effort."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3540.161,"endTime":3547.216,"body":"After they have exerted their influence"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3540.161,"endTime":3547.216,"body":"and their efforts onto your company"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3547.586,"endTime":3547.826,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3548.086,"endTime":3551.782,"body":"I'd say don't be vested"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3548.086,"endTime":3551.782,"body":"in the next snazzy thing."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3551.812,"endTime":3552.142,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3552.142,"endTime":3556.422,"body":"Just, just look for people that"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3552.142,"endTime":3556.422,"body":"will really advise you with your"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3556.422,"endTime":3558.572,"body":"interests at heart as opposed to their."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3559.072,"endTime":3560.482,"body":"Own interests at heart."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3560.795,"endTime":3562.505,"body":"Well, I think we've cracked the code."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3562.809,"endTime":3566.359,"body":"If we've helped you or not"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3562.809,"endTime":3566.359,"body":"helped you please let us know."},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3566.859,"endTime":3570.914,"body":"Let us know either way and let us know"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3566.859,"endTime":3570.914,"body":"what else you'd like to hear about and"},{"speaker":"It's Friday at 4","startTime":3570.914,"endTime":3573.188,"body":"subscribe and like that button down there."}]}