{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":3.465,"body":"Here's a topic that you don't hear"},{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":3.465,"body":"too often, , , who should be in your"},{"startTime":3.465,"endTime":8.924,"body":"Scrum events as meaning team members,"},{"startTime":3.465,"endTime":8.924,"body":"stakeholders, I guess product owners."},{"startTime":9.424,"endTime":9.759,"body":"anybody?"},{"startTime":9.849,"endTime":10.329,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":10.809,"endTime":11.589,"body":"Who should be there."},{"startTime":11.639,"endTime":13.439,"body":"And also who shouldn't be there."},{"startTime":13.499,"endTime":13.589,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":13.829,"endTime":14.759,"body":"equally important."},{"startTime":15.12,"endTime":15.449,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":15.449,"endTime":19.979,"body":"Who should not be there, Who should"},{"startTime":15.449,"endTime":19.979,"body":"and should not be in your Scrum events?"},{"startTime":20.48,"endTime":22.939,"body":"So, let's start off with the"},{"startTime":20.48,"endTime":22.939,"body":"softball of the category."},{"startTime":23.369,"endTime":23.789,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":23.844,"endTime":25.224,"body":"Let's start off with the Daily Scrum."},{"startTime":25.224,"endTime":29.214,"body":"The Daily Scrum, who should and"},{"startTime":25.224,"endTime":29.214,"body":"should not be in your daily scrum."},{"startTime":29.664,"endTime":32.634,"body":"Hey, I also feel, while we're"},{"startTime":29.664,"endTime":32.634,"body":"talking about this, we probably"},{"startTime":32.634,"endTime":34.434,"body":"should reference the scrum guide."},{"startTime":34.934,"endTime":36.284,"body":"The Daily Scrum."},{"startTime":36.284,"endTime":37.154,"body":"Who should be there?"},{"startTime":37.214,"endTime":38.504,"body":"Who should not be there?"},{"startTime":38.654,"endTime":41.615,"body":"So  If we're gonna start with"},{"startTime":38.654,"endTime":41.615,"body":"the daily Scrum, I gotta mention"},{"startTime":41.615,"endTime":43.115,"body":"the scrum guide and what it says."},{"startTime":43.395,"endTime":47.05,"body":"Daily Scrum is a 15 minute event for"},{"startTime":43.395,"endTime":47.05,"body":"the developers of the Scrum team."},{"startTime":47.55,"endTime":50.58,"body":"If the product owner or scrum master"},{"startTime":47.55,"endTime":50.58,"body":"are actively working on items."},{"startTime":51.08,"endTime":54.56,"body":"In the Sprint backlog, they"},{"startTime":51.08,"endTime":54.56,"body":"participate as developers."},{"startTime":55.06,"endTime":55.389,"body":"Hmm."},{"startTime":55.889,"endTime":57.72,"body":"The developers of the scrum team."},{"startTime":58.109,"endTime":62.12,"body":"That includes the developers and"},{"startTime":58.109,"endTime":62.12,"body":"the testers, so I understand it."},{"startTime":62.12,"endTime":65.62,"body":"So those people should"},{"startTime":62.12,"endTime":65.62,"body":"be in the daily scrum."},{"startTime":66.12,"endTime":70.12,"body":"The scrum master specifically"},{"startTime":66.12,"endTime":70.12,"body":"is deemed optional."},{"startTime":70.366,"endTime":73.186,"body":"So the Daily Scrum is for"},{"startTime":70.366,"endTime":73.186,"body":"the team, by the team."},{"startTime":73.686,"endTime":78.276,"body":"People doing the work should be there"},{"startTime":73.686,"endTime":78.276,"body":"to synchronize with one another."},{"startTime":78.636,"endTime":83.566,"body":"So what we just read was the"},{"startTime":78.636,"endTime":83.566,"body":"Daily Scrum 15 minute event for"},{"startTime":83.566,"endTime":85.806,"body":"the developers of the Scrum team."},{"startTime":86.306,"endTime":86.666,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":86.846,"endTime":88.076,"body":"So that, that's who it's for."},{"startTime":88.081,"endTime":88.576,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":88.796,"endTime":92.276,"body":"So there's specifically, there's"},{"startTime":88.796,"endTime":92.276,"body":"no mention of like other people"},{"startTime":92.276,"endTime":93.536,"body":"or whatever in here, right?"},{"startTime":93.536,"endTime":94.706,"body":"No, no other stakeholders."},{"startTime":94.711,"endTime":94.856,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":94.856,"endTime":95.296,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":95.796,"endTime":97.776,"body":"So obviously who should be there?"},{"startTime":97.866,"endTime":99.186,"body":"The developers on the"},{"startTime":97.866,"endTime":99.186,"body":"team should be there."},{"startTime":99.256,"endTime":101.986,"body":"if the product owner, Scrum"},{"startTime":99.256,"endTime":101.986,"body":"Masters should be there."},{"startTime":101.986,"endTime":105.196,"body":"If they also have development"},{"startTime":101.986,"endTime":105.196,"body":"responsibilities, they should be there."},{"startTime":105.466,"endTime":109.206,"body":"Otherwise, this is not going out to"},{"startTime":105.466,"endTime":109.206,"body":"say that they shouldn't be there."},{"startTime":109.706,"endTime":112.066,"body":"It's just saying the"},{"startTime":109.706,"endTime":112.066,"body":"people who should be there."},{"startTime":112.566,"endTime":115.956,"body":"I don't know if  that specific tap"},{"startTime":112.566,"endTime":115.956,"body":"dance is intentional in here or,"},{"startTime":115.956,"endTime":117.156,"body":"Yeah, I think it is intentional."},{"startTime":117.156,"endTime":117.576,"body":"I think what."},{"startTime":118.076,"endTime":119.936,"body":"without paraphrasing them."},{"startTime":119.936,"endTime":124.286,"body":"I think what they're trying to get at"},{"startTime":119.936,"endTime":124.286,"body":"is that the product owner and the scrum"},{"startTime":124.286,"endTime":130.486,"body":"master can be present in a daily standup,"},{"startTime":124.286,"endTime":130.486,"body":"but they actively participate only if"},{"startTime":130.491,"endTime":134.026,"body":"they are working on items in the sprint."},{"startTime":134.026,"endTime":134.236,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":134.656,"endTime":138.336,"body":"So, I can see that, I can see why the"},{"startTime":134.656,"endTime":138.336,"body":"Scrum mastery is there, because they."},{"startTime":138.836,"endTime":141.446,"body":"Yeah, they can be tapped for"},{"startTime":138.836,"endTime":141.446,"body":"things that the team wasn't"},{"startTime":141.446,"endTime":142.676,"body":"able to solve for themselves."},{"startTime":143.066,"endTime":147.686,"body":"The Product Owner can also perhaps"},{"startTime":143.066,"endTime":147.686,"body":"provide clarifying guidelines on"},{"startTime":147.686,"endTime":149.156,"body":"things that people have questions on."},{"startTime":149.156,"endTime":149.516,"body":"Why not?"},{"startTime":149.566,"endTime":150.006,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":150.106,"endTime":153.586,"body":", but it specifically does not"},{"startTime":150.106,"endTime":153.586,"body":"mention any other stakeholders."},{"startTime":153.616,"endTime":153.706,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":153.946,"endTime":154.216,"body":", right?"},{"startTime":154.666,"endTime":158.936,"body":"so it's pretty clear as far as who should"},{"startTime":154.666,"endTime":158.936,"body":"be there and who should not be there."},{"startTime":159.386,"endTime":159.656,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":159.836,"endTime":163.816,"body":"Developers should be there, testers"},{"startTime":159.836,"endTime":163.816,"body":"optionally the scrum master in the"},{"startTime":163.816,"endTime":165.856,"body":"product order, but nobody else."},{"startTime":165.916,"endTime":166.126,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":166.516,"endTime":167.896,"body":"So that's pretty straightforward"},{"startTime":168.396,"endTime":168.846,"body":"okay."},{"startTime":169.346,"endTime":175.036,"body":"Now have you seen teams where the"},{"startTime":169.346,"endTime":175.036,"body":"project manager is there and you know"},{"startTime":175.096,"endTime":179.176,"body":"perhaps the resource manager is there"},{"startTime":175.096,"endTime":179.176,"body":"as well to see how they're working?"},{"startTime":179.176,"endTime":181.186,"body":"My resource manager is my scrum master."},{"startTime":181.686,"endTime":184.356,"body":"My resource manager is"},{"startTime":181.686,"endTime":184.356,"body":"my product owner, right?"},{"startTime":184.806,"endTime":187.386,"body":"My project manager is"},{"startTime":184.806,"endTime":187.386,"body":"also my scrum master."},{"startTime":187.486,"endTime":188.446,"body":"I've seen a lot of stuff."},{"startTime":188.596,"endTime":188.776,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":189.026,"endTime":192.441,"body":", I've also seen on teams where the."},{"startTime":192.936,"endTime":197.436,"body":"Development teams are made up of"},{"startTime":192.936,"endTime":197.436,"body":"contractors, not not permanent"},{"startTime":197.436,"endTime":202.536,"body":"employees in the organization that are"},{"startTime":197.436,"endTime":202.536,"body":"only there for a air quote project."},{"startTime":202.626,"endTime":202.686,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":203.106,"endTime":204.996,"body":"Meaning a definitive start and end time."},{"startTime":205.146,"endTime":207.216,"body":"They just don't know exactly"},{"startTime":205.146,"endTime":207.216,"body":"when that start and end time's"},{"startTime":207.216,"endTime":209.076,"body":"gonna be cuz they don't know"},{"startTime":207.216,"endTime":209.076,"body":"how long the project's gonna be."},{"startTime":209.076,"endTime":213.326,"body":"Right , I've seen the, whoever, the person"},{"startTime":209.076,"endTime":213.326,"body":"that pays the bills, whoever the person"},{"startTime":213.326,"endTime":215.506,"body":"that owns the budget, I've seen them."},{"startTime":216.006,"endTime":219.476,"body":"Kind of demand to be in the daily Scrum."},{"startTime":219.716,"endTime":219.926,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":219.986,"endTime":222.206,"body":"You know, Oh, I need to"},{"startTime":219.986,"endTime":222.206,"body":"know what's happening."},{"startTime":222.206,"endTime":225.836,"body":"But usually it's a, the people trying"},{"startTime":222.206,"endTime":225.836,"body":"to crowbar their way into the teams'"},{"startTime":225.836,"endTime":231.336,"body":"day to day are usually the project"},{"startTime":225.836,"endTime":231.336,"body":"manager type of people anyway."},{"startTime":231.336,"endTime":233.016,"body":"Only in the teams that I've been in."},{"startTime":233.516,"endTime":234.146,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":234.146,"endTime":237.566,"body":"I I've been on teams where the,"},{"startTime":234.146,"endTime":237.566,"body":"the project manager sorts would."},{"startTime":238.066,"endTime":238.846,"body":"I need to be there."},{"startTime":238.936,"endTime":239.116,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":239.116,"endTime":240.946,"body":"I need to be sure that"},{"startTime":239.116,"endTime":240.946,"body":"work's getting done."},{"startTime":241.336,"endTime":246.466,"body":"And when they're not invited, when, when"},{"startTime":241.336,"endTime":246.466,"body":"you push back, they say, Well, okay,"},{"startTime":246.826,"endTime":248.616,"body":"can you send me, minutes of the meeting?"},{"startTime":248.646,"endTime":248.766,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":248.771,"endTime":248.856,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":248.856,"endTime":250.626,"body":"It's like, no, no."},{"startTime":250.626,"endTime":251.466,"body":"That's a waste."},{"startTime":251.526,"endTime":253.946,"body":"Right , so who should be there now?"},{"startTime":253.946,"endTime":258.536,"body":"I have seen in, in scaled"},{"startTime":253.946,"endTime":258.536,"body":"situations where there's a"},{"startTime":258.536,"endTime":260.276,"body":"dependency on another team mm-hmm."},{"startTime":260.701,"endTime":266.246,"body":"and it is perfectly okay for somebody from"},{"startTime":260.701,"endTime":266.246,"body":"another other team to attend your daily."},{"startTime":266.746,"endTime":267.916,"body":"And vice versa."},{"startTime":268.066,"endTime":268.816,"body":"That is okay."},{"startTime":269.236,"endTime":270.496,"body":"They're not there the whole time."},{"startTime":270.496,"endTime":273.826,"body":"Meaning, meaning they're not"},{"startTime":270.496,"endTime":273.826,"body":"there every single daily standup."},{"startTime":273.826,"endTime":275.596,"body":"They're there as and when needed."},{"startTime":275.776,"endTime":275.926,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":275.956,"endTime":280.076,"body":"They're invited for specific"},{"startTime":275.956,"endTime":280.076,"body":"days when they're needed, right?"},{"startTime":280.081,"endTime":280.296,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":280.796,"endTime":286.126,"body":"For the expressed purpose of facilitating"},{"startTime":280.796,"endTime":286.126,"body":"communications, getting clarifications"},{"startTime":286.126,"endTime":289.976,"body":"on when those dependencies could be"},{"startTime":286.126,"endTime":289.976,"body":"met , and that goes both ways for"},{"startTime":289.976,"endTime":293.426,"body":"those that you are dependent upon"},{"startTime":289.976,"endTime":293.426,"body":"and those that depend upon you."},{"startTime":293.516,"endTime":293.786,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":294.196,"endTime":296.046,"body":"So their purpose specific Yes."},{"startTime":296.106,"endTime":297.456,"body":"They're there for a purpose."},{"startTime":297.546,"endTime":297.816,"body":"Correct."},{"startTime":298.116,"endTime":298.386,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":298.386,"endTime":303.206,"body":"And by like, also part of that is like"},{"startTime":298.386,"endTime":303.206,"body":"what's the self, self-managing teams?"},{"startTime":303.236,"endTime":304.646,"body":"Oh geez, I forgot the name of the book."},{"startTime":304.836,"endTime":307.621,"body":"The book was called Team"},{"startTime":304.836,"endTime":307.621,"body":"Topology Organizing Business and"},{"startTime":307.621,"endTime":309.991,"body":"Technology Teams for Fast Flow."},{"startTime":309.991,"endTime":312.721,"body":"Matthew Skeleton, Manuel, Manuel Pius."},{"startTime":312.721,"endTime":313.231,"body":"Pius."},{"startTime":313.351,"endTime":313.531,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":313.661,"endTime":316.941,"body":"yeah, one of the types of teams"},{"startTime":313.661,"endTime":316.941,"body":"in that book enabling teams"},{"startTime":317.331,"endTime":318.441,"body":"would be an example of this."},{"startTime":318.446,"endTime":320.631,"body":"Say, Hey, we have somebody from"},{"startTime":318.446,"endTime":320.631,"body":"our enabling team here today."},{"startTime":320.681,"endTime":323.801,"body":"When we finish, we're talking about"},{"startTime":320.681,"endTime":323.801,"body":"an item that's kind of held up."},{"startTime":323.801,"endTime":325.661,"body":"They're here to unblock us or whatever."},{"startTime":325.666,"endTime":326.111,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":326.361,"endTime":330.801,"body":"Stream-aligned team, complicated subsystem"},{"startTime":326.361,"endTime":330.801,"body":"team, enabling team, platform team."},{"startTime":330.981,"endTime":331.641,"body":"Those are the four teams."},{"startTime":331.671,"endTime":332.751,"body":"So enabling team."},{"startTime":332.801,"endTime":337.031,"body":"Yeah, so the, the,, somebody's there"},{"startTime":332.801,"endTime":337.031,"body":"representing an enabling team  or"},{"startTime":337.031,"endTime":339.311,"body":"representing another stream aligned team."},{"startTime":339.311,"endTime":342.581,"body":"If we're talking about that team"},{"startTime":339.311,"endTime":342.581,"body":"topologies book to talk about how your,"},{"startTime":342.581,"endTime":345.701,"body":"what you are doing interacts with what"},{"startTime":342.581,"endTime":345.701,"body":"they're doing, because maybe you are,"},{"startTime":345.701,"endTime":348.311,"body":"maybe you're running in parallel and"},{"startTime":345.701,"endTime":348.311,"body":"you're not necessarily working on each"},{"startTime":348.311,"endTime":351.401,"body":"other's software, but maybe what you"},{"startTime":348.311,"endTime":351.401,"body":"are doing, you have to either land it"},{"startTime":351.401,"endTime":354.911,"body":"at the same time or what you're doing"},{"startTime":351.401,"endTime":354.911,"body":"is affecting the end product together."},{"startTime":355.151,"endTime":357.811,"body":"Yeah , so somebody from their"},{"startTime":355.151,"endTime":357.811,"body":"team is, is there to help you."},{"startTime":357.901,"endTime":358.591,"body":"That makes sense."},{"startTime":358.591,"endTime":359.071,"body":"But they're not."},{"startTime":359.101,"endTime":359.311,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":359.311,"endTime":359.761,"body":"You're right."},{"startTime":360.061,"endTime":363.221,"body":"Like you said, it's not like they're a"},{"startTime":360.061,"endTime":363.221,"body":"permanent resident of your daily scrum."},{"startTime":363.431,"endTime":363.701,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":363.821,"endTime":367.441,"body":"That then, now that you've provided"},{"startTime":363.821,"endTime":367.441,"body":"them, They're gonna be there forever."},{"startTime":367.501,"endTime":367.801,"body":"No."},{"startTime":367.861,"endTime":368.251,"body":"You know."},{"startTime":368.611,"endTime":368.821,"body":"No."},{"startTime":368.821,"endTime":372.521,"body":"They have to be invited"},{"startTime":368.821,"endTime":372.521,"body":"in for specific purposes."},{"startTime":372.551,"endTime":372.731,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":372.731,"endTime":372.791,"body":"Yeah"},{"startTime":373.291,"endTime":376.321,"body":"business analyst is an"},{"startTime":373.291,"endTime":376.321,"body":"interesting kind of anomaly here."},{"startTime":376.651,"endTime":382.471,"body":"So oftentimes they're considered as"},{"startTime":376.651,"endTime":382.471,"body":"part of the team and they are present"},{"startTime":382.971,"endTime":386.601,"body":"as long as they're not anchoring the"},{"startTime":382.971,"endTime":386.601,"body":"conversation in one way or the another."},{"startTime":387.101,"endTime":391.181,"body":"Occasionally you will have people in,"},{"startTime":387.101,"endTime":391.181,"body":"especially in a matrix organization,"},{"startTime":391.181,"endTime":397.791,"body":"you may have somebody from, if, if your,"},{"startTime":391.181,"endTime":397.791,"body":"if your company has dedicated parts for"},{"startTime":397.791,"endTime":402.131,"body":"things like DevOps, for instance, so on"},{"startTime":397.791,"endTime":402.131,"body":"performance testing or something like"},{"startTime":402.131,"endTime":406.031,"body":"that, you may have those people in,"},{"startTime":402.131,"endTime":406.031,"body":"but again, they will be invited into"},{"startTime":406.031,"endTime":408.581,"body":"your daily standup as and when needed."},{"startTime":408.641,"endTime":408.911,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":409.211,"endTime":409.451,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":409.741,"endTime":414.971,"body":"The case that I've seen more often here"},{"startTime":409.741,"endTime":414.971,"body":"is there is not a dedicated scrum master"},{"startTime":415.471,"endTime":419.281,"body":"and it is like the manager development"},{"startTime":415.471,"endTime":419.281,"body":"or development lead or somebody."},{"startTime":419.781,"endTime":425.231,"body":"wants to be in every daily scrum"},{"startTime":419.781,"endTime":425.231,"body":"for every team that they have,"},{"startTime":425.231,"endTime":427.061,"body":"people that they manage on."},{"startTime":427.361,"endTime":427.481,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":427.931,"endTime":428.911,"body":"because they need to."},{"startTime":429.411,"endTime":431.151,"body":"be watching or what?"},{"startTime":431.156,"endTime":433.071,"body":"You know, like I don't,"},{"startTime":431.156,"endTime":433.071,"body":"Some sense of control."},{"startTime":433.071,"endTime":433.461,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":433.461,"endTime":436.131,"body":"I don't know what that's what it"},{"startTime":433.461,"endTime":436.131,"body":"is, that they need to be sure that"},{"startTime":436.131,"endTime":438.381,"body":"their people are delivering value."},{"startTime":438.651,"endTime":439.071,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":439.071,"endTime":439.431,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":439.931,"endTime":442.721,"body":"That's just another way of saying"},{"startTime":439.931,"endTime":442.721,"body":"that they're controlling need,"},{"startTime":442.721,"endTime":444.521,"body":"be watching over their people."},{"startTime":444.526,"endTime":446.651,"body":"Oversight, providing oversight."},{"startTime":446.651,"endTime":447.611,"body":"That's what it is, Right?"},{"startTime":447.611,"endTime":452.451,"body":"Oversight , but you know, like"},{"startTime":447.611,"endTime":452.451,"body":"is there a way to gracefully."},{"startTime":452.896,"endTime":455.536,"body":"Help them understand that"},{"startTime":452.896,"endTime":455.536,"body":"that's not necessary."},{"startTime":456.036,"endTime":460.226,"body":"Yeah, I, I think there is, I"},{"startTime":456.036,"endTime":460.226,"body":"think when you, when you have your"},{"startTime":460.726,"endTime":465.156,"body":"calendar invitation for the daily"},{"startTime":460.726,"endTime":465.156,"body":"Scrum, I'm assuming most people"},{"startTime":465.246,"endTime":467.406,"body":"have some remote component Right."},{"startTime":467.436,"endTime":468.096,"body":"to their teams."},{"startTime":468.426,"endTime":472.356,"body":"So there would be a, a calendar"},{"startTime":468.426,"endTime":472.356,"body":"in, in that calendar agenda,"},{"startTime":472.416,"endTime":475.446,"body":"you make it expressly clear that"},{"startTime":472.416,"endTime":475.446,"body":"this meeting is for the team."},{"startTime":475.446,"endTime":475.956,"body":"By the team."},{"startTime":476.456,"endTime":480.776,"body":"Unless you're working on something on the"},{"startTime":476.456,"endTime":480.776,"body":"backlog, you do not need to be present."},{"startTime":481.276,"endTime":484.176,"body":"Unless expressly invited, Oh boy."},{"startTime":484.236,"endTime":488.766,"body":"And then I've done this , feel"},{"startTime":484.236,"endTime":488.766,"body":"free if somebody is persistently"},{"startTime":488.766,"endTime":491.156,"body":"showing up to Uninvite."},{"startTime":491.456,"endTime":494.816,"body":"The first thing here I would suggest"},{"startTime":491.456,"endTime":494.816,"body":"is to have a one on one with that"},{"startTime":494.816,"endTime":498.996,"body":"person and also, just so it's clear"},{"startTime":494.816,"endTime":498.996,"body":"to also have a one on one with"},{"startTime":498.996,"endTime":500.856,"body":"that person's boss if possible."},{"startTime":501.076,"endTime":505.426,"body":"Cuz again, if you have somebody"},{"startTime":501.076,"endTime":505.426,"body":"that's popping in chances are they"},{"startTime":505.426,"endTime":508.986,"body":"know what they're doing is not, not."},{"startTime":509.486,"endTime":510.866,"body":"Desired not."},{"startTime":511.196,"endTime":513.651,"body":"I was gonna say they know that"},{"startTime":511.196,"endTime":513.651,"body":"they're coming in uninvited."},{"startTime":513.781,"endTime":513.901,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":514.291,"endTime":516.781,"body":"I was trying to figure out a nice way"},{"startTime":514.291,"endTime":516.781,"body":"to say like, gate crashing your party."},{"startTime":516.781,"endTime":520.231,"body":"They know they're not invited to the"},{"startTime":516.781,"endTime":520.231,"body":"party and they're showing up anyway."},{"startTime":520.291,"endTime":520.501,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":520.751,"endTime":523.891,"body":"This one like the, the way out"},{"startTime":520.751,"endTime":523.891,"body":"of this, because you're gonna"},{"startTime":523.891,"endTime":526.351,"body":"deal with this in every single"},{"startTime":523.891,"endTime":526.351,"body":"category we're about to talk about."},{"startTime":526.501,"endTime":527.521,"body":"You're gonna deal with this issue."},{"startTime":527.581,"endTime":527.821,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":527.821,"endTime":530.851,"body":"You have somebody in management."},{"startTime":531.351,"endTime":536.561,"body":"Who, because they are vested with the"},{"startTime":531.351,"endTime":536.561,"body":"power of management, they feel they"},{"startTime":536.561,"endTime":540.131,"body":"can show up to every party uninvited"},{"startTime":536.561,"endTime":540.131,"body":"and will be welcomed with open arms."},{"startTime":540.221,"endTime":543.266,"body":"And no, nobody has the ability"},{"startTime":540.221,"endTime":543.266,"body":"to say no, they must force"},{"startTime":543.266,"endTime":544.856,"body":"their way into every situation."},{"startTime":544.861,"endTime":549.106,"body":"Let's, you could ask them what is your"},{"startTime":544.861,"endTime":549.106,"body":"objective in attending this meeting?"},{"startTime":549.106,"endTime":550.486,"body":"What do you hope to get out of this?"},{"startTime":550.986,"endTime":551.316,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":551.586,"endTime":556.226,"body":"Inevitably it, it boil down to, you"},{"startTime":551.586,"endTime":556.226,"body":"know well, I just wanna make sure that"},{"startTime":556.726,"endTime":560.176,"body":"the event is happening properly, that"},{"startTime":556.726,"endTime":560.176,"body":"people are working properly, et cetera,"},{"startTime":560.676,"endTime":562.626,"body":"and then it quickly degenerates too."},{"startTime":562.626,"endTime":565.676,"body":"Well, if I'm not there I'm"},{"startTime":562.626,"endTime":565.676,"body":"okay with that as long as you"},{"startTime":565.681,"endTime":567.506,"body":"send me minutes of the meeting."},{"startTime":568.006,"endTime":574.146,"body":"and then you, what you say very politely"},{"startTime":568.006,"endTime":574.146,"body":"is this is for the team, by the team."},{"startTime":574.206,"endTime":577.176,"body":"So if the team feels like they"},{"startTime":574.206,"endTime":577.176,"body":"need you, they'll reach out to you."},{"startTime":577.176,"endTime":577.296,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":577.711,"endTime":580.136,"body":", right?, and yeah, just uninvite them."},{"startTime":580.636,"endTime":581.766,"body":"Be brave , yeah."},{"startTime":581.771,"endTime":582.186,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":582.191,"endTime":584.516,"body":"You're right about being brave"},{"startTime":582.191,"endTime":584.516,"body":"because people ask, what is"},{"startTime":584.516,"endTime":585.716,"body":"a scrum master Do all day?"},{"startTime":585.721,"endTime":587.456,"body":"Like this is part of what"},{"startTime":585.721,"endTime":587.456,"body":"you're doing all day."},{"startTime":587.456,"endTime":590.996,"body":"Like you have to deal with"},{"startTime":587.456,"endTime":590.996,"body":"these organizational things."},{"startTime":591.496,"endTime":596.766,"body":"And some organizational things might be"},{"startTime":591.496,"endTime":596.766,"body":"one specific person being the roadblock."},{"startTime":597.036,"endTime":597.846,"body":"In the organization."},{"startTime":598.146,"endTime":602.096,"body":"I say uninvite them, et cetera,"},{"startTime":598.146,"endTime":602.096,"body":"that specifically applies."},{"startTime":602.156,"endTime":605.176,"body":"I if they're just there kind"},{"startTime":602.156,"endTime":605.176,"body":"of fly on the wall and they're"},{"startTime":605.176,"endTime":606.706,"body":"not really saying anything."},{"startTime":607.206,"endTime":607.896,"body":"No harm."},{"startTime":607.956,"endTime":608.286,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":608.676,"endTime":611.196,"body":"But oftentimes that's not the case."},{"startTime":611.196,"endTime":614.616,"body":"Oftentimes, they come in and they're"},{"startTime":611.196,"endTime":614.616,"body":"asking people questions, especially"},{"startTime":614.616,"endTime":617.506,"body":"if somebody says I didn't get as"},{"startTime":614.616,"endTime":617.506,"body":"far as I wanted to on this issue"},{"startTime":617.511,"endTime":619.036,"body":"yesterday that I was working on."},{"startTime":619.426,"endTime":622.686,"body":"I ran into a roadblock, and"},{"startTime":619.426,"endTime":622.686,"body":"they immediately jump in, What"},{"startTime":622.691,"endTime":623.496,"body":"have you done to solve that?"},{"startTime":623.496,"endTime":624.186,"body":"Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."},{"startTime":624.426,"endTime":627.816,"body":"If they're coming in and, and"},{"startTime":624.426,"endTime":627.816,"body":"interjecting in any way that"},{"startTime":627.816,"endTime":629.706,"body":"gives you full license Yeah."},{"startTime":629.976,"endTime":631.466,"body":"To eject them from the meeting."},{"startTime":631.856,"endTime":634.786,"body":"Yeah , I like, I wanna move"},{"startTime":631.856,"endTime":634.786,"body":"on cause we have so many other"},{"startTime":634.786,"endTime":636.346,"body":"sickies and I feel moving fast."},{"startTime":636.346,"endTime":638.416,"body":"I, I like, I also wanna"},{"startTime":636.346,"endTime":638.416,"body":"keep going this topic."},{"startTime":638.421,"endTime":642.211,"body":"I don't know if we should take this topic"},{"startTime":638.421,"endTime":642.211,"body":"offline under the banner of something"},{"startTime":642.211,"endTime":645.601,"body":"about like dealing with , organizational"},{"startTime":642.211,"endTime":645.601,"body":"roadblocks that might be people"},{"startTime":646.101,"endTime":647.391,"body":"something, something along those lines."},{"startTime":647.511,"endTime":650.871,"body":"Yeah, because there's a coaching"},{"startTime":647.511,"endTime":650.871,"body":"process to be employed here."},{"startTime":651.081,"endTime":652.761,"body":"You know, start, start"},{"startTime":651.081,"endTime":652.761,"body":"one on ones with them."},{"startTime":652.761,"endTime":655.161,"body":"Start one on ones with, with"},{"startTime":652.761,"endTime":655.161,"body":"your, with with their manager."},{"startTime":655.621,"endTime":658.681,"body":"One on ones with your manager,"},{"startTime":655.621,"endTime":658.681,"body":"whoever that might be, but basically"},{"startTime":658.681,"endTime":664.161,"body":"one on ones with whoever can break"},{"startTime":658.681,"endTime":664.161,"body":"down these problems that you're"},{"startTime":664.161,"endTime":665.451,"body":"experiencing in the organization."},{"startTime":665.871,"endTime":668.601,"body":"And I use problems loosely because"},{"startTime":665.871,"endTime":668.601,"body":"problems might be, it might be one"},{"startTime":668.601,"endTime":672.321,"body":"person, honestly, it might be just one"},{"startTime":668.601,"endTime":672.321,"body":"single manager development who just"},{"startTime":672.321,"endTime":673.941,"body":"needs to be everywhere all the time."},{"startTime":673.946,"endTime":675.081,"body":"That's how they feel that they're."},{"startTime":675.331,"endTime":677.371,"body":"If they're not everywhere"},{"startTime":675.331,"endTime":677.371,"body":"and in every conversation,"},{"startTime":677.371,"endTime":678.751,"body":"they're not doing a good job."},{"startTime":678.751,"endTime":679.981,"body":"That's just the way they feel."},{"startTime":680.341,"endTime":680.581,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":680.701,"endTime":682.741,"body":"But because they're everywhere,"},{"startTime":680.701,"endTime":682.741,"body":"they're not actually, they're not"},{"startTime":682.741,"endTime":683.731,"body":"actually doing, They're doing anywhere."},{"startTime":683.731,"endTime":683.971,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":683.971,"endTime":684.571,"body":"They're not doing anything."},{"startTime":684.571,"endTime":684.781,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":685.051,"endTime":687.156,"body":"It's, it's, yeah, you're"},{"startTime":685.051,"endTime":687.156,"body":"right , manager development."},{"startTime":687.161,"endTime":692.226,"body":"And also sometimes I feel architects"},{"startTime":687.161,"endTime":692.226,"body":"jump in and they'll come in to"},{"startTime":692.231,"endTime":695.826,"body":"the Daily Scrums specifically, and"},{"startTime":692.231,"endTime":695.826,"body":"they'll start directing people."},{"startTime":695.856,"endTime":697.636,"body":"Yeah , and that's just disruptive."},{"startTime":697.736,"endTime":698.786,"body":"It portrays the."},{"startTime":699.286,"endTime":701.896,"body":"You know, the atmosphere"},{"startTime":699.286,"endTime":701.896,"body":"of mistrust, right?"},{"startTime":702.076,"endTime":703.696,"body":"And people feel guilty."},{"startTime":704.096,"endTime":706.766,"body":"they're being told you shouldn't"},{"startTime":704.096,"endTime":706.766,"body":"be doing things that way or this"},{"startTime":706.766,"endTime":707.906,"body":"way, and that kind of thing."},{"startTime":707.911,"endTime":710.246,"body":"And calling them out in, in"},{"startTime":707.911,"endTime":710.246,"body":"front of their colleagues."},{"startTime":710.746,"endTime":714.416,"body":"Those sorts of things are not really"},{"startTime":710.746,"endTime":714.416,"body":"conducive to forming the team and"},{"startTime":714.416,"endTime":719.426,"body":"keeping them well well synchronized,"},{"startTime":714.416,"endTime":719.426,"body":"again, I would just say clear agenda."},{"startTime":719.846,"endTime":721.916,"body":"Just say if you're on this"},{"startTime":719.846,"endTime":721.916,"body":"meeting, it's because you're"},{"startTime":721.916,"endTime":723.886,"body":"working on, so, In the sprint."},{"startTime":723.946,"endTime":724.036,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":724.276,"endTime":727.216,"body":". And then if they gate crash"},{"startTime":724.276,"endTime":727.216,"body":"your, your meeting, ask them."},{"startTime":727.216,"endTime":729.466,"body":"Or are you working on in"},{"startTime":727.216,"endTime":729.466,"body":"the sprint or you're not?"},{"startTime":729.966,"endTime":733.176,"body":"Okay, well maybe you don't need to be"},{"startTime":729.966,"endTime":733.176,"body":"here and we'll give you some time back"},{"startTime":733.726,"endTime":737.751,"body":"I don't know if this is typical of"},{"startTime":733.726,"endTime":737.751,"body":"what people experience, but I find"},{"startTime":737.751,"endTime":741.741,"body":"that on the, on the, some of the"},{"startTime":737.751,"endTime":741.741,"body":"more high functioning team, I dunno"},{"startTime":741.741,"endTime":743.091,"body":"if that's the right way to say it."},{"startTime":743.571,"endTime":747.611,"body":"On, on some of the, the, the best"},{"startTime":743.571,"endTime":747.611,"body":"teams that I've been on out there the,"},{"startTime":748.111,"endTime":751.456,"body":"the actual conversation that happens"},{"startTime":748.111,"endTime":751.456,"body":"at the Daily Scrum again,  as long as"},{"startTime":751.456,"endTime":754.846,"body":"people aren't asking the product on our"},{"startTime":751.456,"endTime":754.846,"body":"questions, and as long as things aren't"},{"startTime":754.846,"endTime":758.736,"body":"being taken in and out of, of the, of"},{"startTime":754.846,"endTime":758.736,"body":"the sprint and stuff like that,  and the"},{"startTime":758.736,"endTime":763.326,"body":"developers kind of have a, a, a decent"},{"startTime":758.736,"endTime":763.326,"body":"grasp of the, the concepts of Scrum,"},{"startTime":763.326,"endTime":765.286,"body":"they can kind of move the event along."},{"startTime":765.286,"endTime":767.446,"body":"What I'm trying to say basically is"},{"startTime":765.286,"endTime":767.446,"body":"the scrum master and product owner"},{"startTime":767.566,"endTime":770.266,"body":"basically are silent most of the time,"},{"startTime":767.566,"endTime":770.266,"body":"and the team kind of moves through"},{"startTime":770.266,"endTime":776.096,"body":"it the best meetings , like they're"},{"startTime":770.266,"endTime":776.096,"body":"so low level in the weeds that most"},{"startTime":776.101,"endTime":779.616,"body":"managers or whoever would come to these"},{"startTime":776.101,"endTime":779.616,"body":"meetings would just be bored, lost."},{"startTime":779.616,"endTime":779.896,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":779.896,"endTime":780.986,"body":"It would just be bored."},{"startTime":781.256,"endTime":785.866,"body":"Either bored or just lost, or I mean, even"},{"startTime":781.256,"endTime":785.866,"body":"another developer from another team like."},{"startTime":786.366,"endTime":789.906,"body":"They don't know the ins and outs"},{"startTime":786.366,"endTime":789.906,"body":"of every single work item and"},{"startTime":789.906,"endTime":790.896,"body":"every single piece of the program."},{"startTime":790.896,"endTime":795.046,"body":"I, I could see where a maybe a manager"},{"startTime":790.896,"endTime":795.046,"body":"or a lead or some, something, basically"},{"startTime":795.116,"endTime":799.096,"body":"a, a developer who used to work on"},{"startTime":795.116,"endTime":799.096,"body":"that piece of the code, who doesn't"},{"startTime":799.101,"endTime":800.506,"body":"work on that piece of the code anymore."},{"startTime":800.746,"endTime":803.266,"body":"They might feel like they"},{"startTime":800.746,"endTime":803.266,"body":"want to interject and be"},{"startTime":803.271,"endTime":803.926,"body":"like, Why are you doing that?"},{"startTime":803.926,"endTime":804.376,"body":"What is this?"},{"startTime":804.376,"endTime":805.276,"body":"What did you try this?"},{"startTime":805.486,"endTime":806.896,"body":"Like, I can see that."},{"startTime":807.316,"endTime":808.626,"body":"But also if they're not on."},{"startTime":809.486,"endTime":811.236,"body":"The easiest way is just don't invite them."},{"startTime":811.236,"endTime":814.566,"body":"If they're not on the team, they"},{"startTime":811.236,"endTime":814.566,"body":"can during the reviews or maybe"},{"startTime":814.816,"endTime":818.056,"body":"Other things outside of this code"},{"startTime":814.816,"endTime":818.056,"body":"Reviews, maybe in the sprint review?"},{"startTime":818.056,"endTime":818.356,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":818.356,"endTime":819.886,"body":"They can have their say Sure."},{"startTime":819.886,"endTime":820.636,"body":"Get Yeah, right."},{"startTime":820.636,"endTime":824.326,"body":"Get what they need but also the point"},{"startTime":820.636,"endTime":824.326,"body":"of the meeting is for the developers, so"},{"startTime":824.326,"endTime":826.396,"body":"look at what they're doing and realign."},{"startTime":826.536,"endTime":830.676,"body":"Change work items, change the direction"},{"startTime":826.536,"endTime":830.676,"body":"of what they're doing and figure out"},{"startTime":830.676,"endTime":832.086,"body":"the best way to do the work, you know?"},{"startTime":832.136,"endTime":833.276,"body":"Hey, I did this in the code."},{"startTime":833.281,"endTime":834.206,"body":"I got this PR in."},{"startTime":834.206,"endTime":836.996,"body":"Oh, I looked at your, I did a"},{"startTime":834.206,"endTime":836.996,"body":"code review on your PR and I,"},{"startTime":837.206,"endTime":838.616,"body":"you're, you're using this method."},{"startTime":838.616,"endTime":842.156,"body":"Are you sure you want to do whatever and"},{"startTime":838.616,"endTime":842.156,"body":"not do use this way of doing whatever?"},{"startTime":842.156,"endTime":844.786,"body":"And it's like, Right, I could give"},{"startTime":842.156,"endTime":844.786,"body":"a shit about what you guys are"},{"startTime":844.791,"endTime":847.906,"body":"talking about, PRS and fucking"},{"startTime":844.791,"endTime":847.906,"body":"methods or functions or whatever."},{"startTime":847.911,"endTime":849.171,"body":"That's what they should"},{"startTime":847.911,"endTime":849.171,"body":"be talking about in me."},{"startTime":849.171,"endTime":850.641,"body":"They should be, they"},{"startTime":849.171,"endTime":850.641,"body":"should be synchronizing."},{"startTime":850.641,"endTime":853.581,"body":"Cuz somebody's gonna say, Oh, you're"},{"startTime":850.641,"endTime":853.581,"body":"doing that pr Well why don't you wait"},{"startTime":853.581,"endTime":855.591,"body":"a little bit cuz I have something"},{"startTime":853.581,"endTime":855.591,"body":"in there I don't wanna, Yeah."},{"startTime":855.591,"endTime":855.831,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":855.836,"endTime":855.921,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":855.921,"endTime":858.681,"body":"You know those, those are the"},{"startTime":855.921,"endTime":858.681,"body":"conversations that's gold right there."},{"startTime":858.981,"endTime":860.391,"body":"So yeah, I agree with you there."},{"startTime":860.421,"endTime":860.721,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":860.751,"endTime":864.291,"body":"I need you guys to clear that PR outta"},{"startTime":860.751,"endTime":864.291,"body":"that because I got one directly behind it."},{"startTime":864.291,"endTime":866.451,"body":"Oh, I didn't know you were"},{"startTime":864.291,"endTime":866.451,"body":"working on that now, or you."},{"startTime":866.951,"endTime":867.311,"body":", You're right."},{"startTime":867.341,"endTime":867.641,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":868.141,"endTime":870.776,"body":"Yeah , let's , let's, let's"},{"startTime":868.141,"endTime":870.776,"body":"move on to the next event."},{"startTime":870.866,"endTime":871.796,"body":"Where Elmo, Yeah."},{"startTime":871.796,"endTime":874.856,"body":"Let's move un uninvited"},{"startTime":871.796,"endTime":874.856,"body":"guests might show up."},{"startTime":874.856,"endTime":874.976,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":875.006,"endTime":878.286,"body":"Let's move on to the next one, which"},{"startTime":875.006,"endTime":878.286,"body":"should be our quickest category"},{"startTime":878.291,"endTime":883.656,"body":"of this whole series, which is the"},{"startTime":878.291,"endTime":883.656,"body":"retrospective, the sprint retrospective."},{"startTime":884.156,"endTime":887.036,"body":"It's gonna be just as quick"},{"startTime":884.156,"endTime":887.036,"body":"as one of the other categories"},{"startTime":887.036,"endTime":888.566,"body":"that's coming up too, I believe."},{"startTime":889.046,"endTime":889.316,"body":"So."},{"startTime":889.321,"endTime":893.086,"body":"Retrospectives, Again, the whole"},{"startTime":889.321,"endTime":893.086,"body":"purpose of that is to look at"},{"startTime":893.086,"endTime":894.346,"body":"the way the team is working."},{"startTime":894.846,"endTime":897.776,"body":", if you look at that and identify"},{"startTime":894.846,"endTime":897.776,"body":"opportunities for improvement."},{"startTime":897.776,"endTime":903.696,"body":"So if you look at that as the objective"},{"startTime":897.776,"endTime":903.696,"body":"of the meeting, then who can really, who"},{"startTime":903.701,"endTime":907.416,"body":"can really participate meaningfully in"},{"startTime":903.701,"endTime":907.416,"body":"there, except for the team doing the work."},{"startTime":907.446,"endTime":908.766,"body":"That's it , yeah."},{"startTime":908.826,"endTime":912.966,"body":"You know, so any other stakeholders"},{"startTime":908.826,"endTime":912.966,"body":"that come in and, and on our way in,"},{"startTime":912.966,"endTime":917.046,"body":"they should be very, very actively"},{"startTime":912.966,"endTime":917.046,"body":"discouraged to attend these things."},{"startTime":917.046,"endTime":917.586,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":917.601,"endTime":919.791,"body":"When I'm a scrum master, I."},{"startTime":920.291,"endTime":922.721,"body":"This one is not open to debate."},{"startTime":922.781,"endTime":925.601,"body":"It's like, I there a lot of"},{"startTime":922.781,"endTime":925.601,"body":"these even the daily scrum."},{"startTime":925.766,"endTime":927.516,"body":"Right that we just got"},{"startTime":925.766,"endTime":927.516,"body":"done talking about that."},{"startTime":927.516,"endTime":930.066,"body":"I promise I'm not gonna spend more than"},{"startTime":927.516,"endTime":930.066,"body":"10 seconds talking about again, but"},{"startTime":930.246,"endTime":933.846,"body":"even the daily Scrum like you said,"},{"startTime":930.246,"endTime":933.846,"body":"like you pointed out like, hey, you got"},{"startTime":933.846,"endTime":936.706,"body":"that manager, you got that development"},{"startTime":933.846,"endTime":936.706,"body":"lead, got whatever, that executive"},{"startTime":936.706,"endTime":941.746,"body":"or whatever it is like demanding to"},{"startTime":936.706,"endTime":941.746,"body":"be in, Hey, sign me on all, all the"},{"startTime":941.751,"endTime":942.946,"body":"guy that pays bills, for example."},{"startTime":942.976,"endTime":943.246,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":943.251,"endTime":945.276,"body":"Sign me on to all your sprint events."},{"startTime":945.276,"endTime":948.096,"body":"You know, usually when I hear that"},{"startTime":945.276,"endTime":948.096,"body":"it means I'm getting replaced."},{"startTime":948.096,"endTime":950.006,"body":"That's what I  sign me"},{"startTime":948.096,"endTime":950.006,"body":"on to all your events."},{"startTime":950.006,"endTime":955.416,"body":"I'm like, Uhoh, yeah , But the retro if"},{"startTime":950.006,"endTime":955.416,"body":"you're signing onto the daily Scrum and"},{"startTime":955.416,"endTime":959.021,"body":"you're gonna be cool and you're not gonna"},{"startTime":955.416,"endTime":959.021,"body":"say anything and  you've proven that you"},{"startTime":959.021,"endTime":962.141,"body":"understand the point of the meeting and"},{"startTime":959.021,"endTime":962.141,"body":"you're gonna play along with the rules."},{"startTime":962.471,"endTime":963.101,"body":"That's cool."},{"startTime":963.601,"endTime":966.931,"body":"And I'll let you stay"},{"startTime":963.601,"endTime":966.931,"body":"for a while at least."},{"startTime":966.931,"endTime":967.081,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":967.081,"endTime":968.741,"body":"I'll let you stay retro."},{"startTime":969.241,"endTime":970.801,"body":"No, there's no room there."},{"startTime":970.801,"endTime":972.151,"body":"I'm gonna, I'm gonna cancel"},{"startTime":970.801,"endTime":972.151,"body":"the series of meeting."},{"startTime":972.651,"endTime":973.851,"body":"I'm gonna reinvite the team."},{"startTime":973.911,"endTime":976.101,"body":"And you're not gonna be on the"},{"startTime":973.911,"endTime":976.101,"body":"new I'm gonna use a new link."},{"startTime":976.251,"endTime":977.421,"body":"It's gonna be invite only."},{"startTime":977.421,"endTime":978.441,"body":"You can't add people."},{"startTime":978.501,"endTime":980.511,"body":"I'm gonna be real"},{"startTime":978.501,"endTime":980.511,"body":"hardcore about the retro."},{"startTime":980.511,"endTime":981.151,"body":"I agree fully."},{"startTime":981.511,"endTime":985.201,"body":"I mean, the real fundamental reason"},{"startTime":981.511,"endTime":985.201,"body":"for that is not just because it's"},{"startTime":985.201,"endTime":988.821,"body":"for the team, by the team, et"},{"startTime":985.201,"endTime":988.821,"body":"cetera, but you really wanna promote"},{"startTime":988.881,"endTime":991.971,"body":"a safe environment for the team to"},{"startTime":988.881,"endTime":991.971,"body":"talk about anything and everything."},{"startTime":992.221,"endTime":996.481,"body":"And they will not speak up if"},{"startTime":992.221,"endTime":996.481,"body":"these external parties are present."},{"startTime":996.661,"endTime":996.991,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":996.991,"endTime":999.241,"body":"So you want those people not to be there."},{"startTime":999.541,"endTime":1000.531,"body":"And by not being."},{"startTime":1001.031,"endTime":1002.081,"body":"That's how they're helping."},{"startTime":1002.141,"endTime":1002.231,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1002.471,"endTime":1002.741,"body":", right?"},{"startTime":1002.951,"endTime":1005.351,"body":"So oftentimes they'll say, Well"},{"startTime":1002.951,"endTime":1005.351,"body":"I just wanna see how I can help"},{"startTime":1005.351,"endTime":1006.791,"body":"who, Here's how he can help."},{"startTime":1007.061,"endTime":1008.081,"body":"Don't show up, please."},{"startTime":1008.291,"endTime":1008.651,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1008.656,"endTime":1009.881,"body":"You're helping if you don't show up."},{"startTime":1010.381,"endTime":1014.021,"body":"Oh man, if I had a nickel for every"},{"startTime":1010.381,"endTime":1014.021,"body":"time someone told me that Ooh boy."},{"startTime":1014.521,"endTime":1016.081,"body":"I have at least three nickels , so like,"},{"startTime":1016.331,"endTime":1020.411,"body":"the question here is like, well,"},{"startTime":1016.331,"endTime":1020.411,"body":"how many Oh, you might need me, Mr."},{"startTime":1020.416,"endTime":1022.901,"body":"Development lead or whatever,"},{"startTime":1020.416,"endTime":1022.901,"body":"to help unblock you with some"},{"startTime":1022.901,"endTime":1023.651,"body":"of the actions outta that."},{"startTime":1023.651,"endTime":1024.761,"body":"Retro was like, Well, cool."},{"startTime":1024.761,"endTime":1028.241,"body":"Then the Scrum master can take the action"},{"startTime":1024.761,"endTime":1028.241,"body":"outta the retro and bring it to you."},{"startTime":1028.741,"endTime":1029.161,"body":"Mr."},{"startTime":1029.161,"endTime":1029.521,"body":"And Mrs."},{"startTime":1029.521,"endTime":1031.551,"body":"Stakeholder out of."},{"startTime":1032.051,"endTime":1032.591,"body":"The session."},{"startTime":1032.801,"endTime":1033.611,"body":"Absolutely right."},{"startTime":1033.611,"endTime":1037.371,"body":"But inside the session, even the"},{"startTime":1033.611,"endTime":1037.371,"body":"injection of one individual who's not"},{"startTime":1037.371,"endTime":1042.571,"body":"on the team, one manager, one executive"},{"startTime":1037.371,"endTime":1042.571,"body":"one, and Nullies the event team."},{"startTime":1042.661,"endTime":1042.841,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1042.841,"endTime":1043.351,"body":"In my view."},{"startTime":1043.351,"endTime":1043.621,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1043.626,"endTime":1043.771,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1043.771,"endTime":1048.881,"body":"Well it nullifies the whole, the whole"},{"startTime":1043.771,"endTime":1048.881,"body":"environment the whole air of psychological"},{"startTime":1048.881,"endTime":1050.321,"body":"safety that you're trying to establish."},{"startTime":1050.321,"endTime":1053.291,"body":"The whole atmosphere of psychological"},{"startTime":1050.321,"endTime":1053.291,"body":"safety you're trying to establish."},{"startTime":1053.791,"endTime":1057.931,"body":"Could potentially be nullified by"},{"startTime":1053.791,"endTime":1057.931,"body":"just bringing one person who is not"},{"startTime":1058.321,"endTime":1062.881,"body":"responsible for any of the work into"},{"startTime":1058.321,"endTime":1062.881,"body":"the team as they talk about, you know?"},{"startTime":1063.031,"endTime":1063.331,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1063.361,"endTime":1066.061,"body":"So I, I, I will say that there is."},{"startTime":1066.561,"endTime":1070.631,"body":"Potentially, potentially an exception"},{"startTime":1066.561,"endTime":1070.631,"body":"to that rule we just outlined,"},{"startTime":1070.661,"endTime":1076.561,"body":"which is occasionally a scrum master"},{"startTime":1070.661,"endTime":1076.561,"body":"might think about having somebody"},{"startTime":1076.591,"endTime":1078.421,"body":"completely from outside the team."},{"startTime":1078.426,"endTime":1078.511,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1078.871,"endTime":1081.881,"body":"coming in and facilitating"},{"startTime":1078.871,"endTime":1081.881,"body":"the retro script another,"},{"startTime":1081.886,"endTime":1082.781,"body":"another scrum master maybe."},{"startTime":1082.961,"endTime":1083.021,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1083.081,"endTime":1083.381,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1083.386,"endTime":1089.041,"body":"And that I've tried this before and"},{"startTime":1083.386,"endTime":1089.041,"body":"It's amazing because they will open"},{"startTime":1089.041,"endTime":1092.551,"body":"up and talk about things with someone"},{"startTime":1089.041,"endTime":1092.551,"body":"else completely, even though they're"},{"startTime":1092.556,"endTime":1097.051,"body":"a stranger, because that stranger has"},{"startTime":1092.556,"endTime":1097.051,"body":"no background on this, so they're just"},{"startTime":1097.056,"endTime":1098.731,"body":"gonna be asking questions directly."},{"startTime":1098.761,"endTime":1098.971,"body":"Yeah"},{"startTime":1099.271,"endTime":1102.481,"body":"so I think that might be the only"},{"startTime":1099.271,"endTime":1102.481,"body":"exception is you bring someone in for the"},{"startTime":1102.481,"endTime":1104.701,"body":"express purpose of facilitating the retro."},{"startTime":1104.941,"endTime":1108.901,"body":"And if you do that, make sure that you"},{"startTime":1104.941,"endTime":1108.901,"body":"as a scrum master are not in the room."},{"startTime":1109.401,"endTime":1113.451,"body":"because why bring someone in if the"},{"startTime":1109.401,"endTime":1113.451,"body":"team's not gonna be able to open up?"},{"startTime":1113.451,"endTime":1113.871,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1113.901,"endTime":1114.531,"body":"If you're there."},{"startTime":1114.531,"endTime":1118.341,"body":"So make sure that if someone's"},{"startTime":1114.531,"endTime":1118.341,"body":"standing in for you, you stand out."},{"startTime":1118.401,"endTime":1119.091,"body":"Don't come in."},{"startTime":1119.091,"endTime":1119.151,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1119.241,"endTime":1119.781,"body":"Interesting."},{"startTime":1119.811,"endTime":1120.051,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1120.051,"endTime":1120.331,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1120.514,"endTime":1123.064,"body":"I was thinking about mentioning"},{"startTime":1120.514,"endTime":1123.064,"body":"that one, but I also was thinking"},{"startTime":1123.069,"endTime":1124.264,"body":"about moving on from Yeah."},{"startTime":1124.264,"endTime":1125.284,"body":"Let, let's, let's do that."},{"startTime":1125.284,"endTime":1127.734,"body":"Yeah so retrospective, that's"},{"startTime":1125.284,"endTime":1127.734,"body":"fairly straightforward."},{"startTime":1127.794,"endTime":1131.634,"body":"Again, the most firm stance I'm gonna take"},{"startTime":1127.794,"endTime":1131.634,"body":"on any of these are in the retrospective."},{"startTime":1131.634,"endTime":1132.234,"body":"So there we go."},{"startTime":1132.234,"endTime":1134.144,"body":"I just took it the sprint review."},{"startTime":1134.644,"endTime":1137.764,"body":"Yeah, this is kind of the"},{"startTime":1134.644,"endTime":1137.764,"body":"opposite , so sprint review is where"},{"startTime":1138.264,"endTime":1140.384,"body":"transparency really plays out, right?"},{"startTime":1140.384,"endTime":1144.464,"body":"The team saying, Here's the fruits"},{"startTime":1140.384,"endTime":1144.464,"body":"of our labor, here's, here's what you"},{"startTime":1144.464,"endTime":1148.354,"body":"trusted us to work with over the last two"},{"startTime":1144.464,"endTime":1148.354,"body":"weeks, and here's what we came up with."},{"startTime":1148.854,"endTime":1152.784,"body":"And so with the sprint review,"},{"startTime":1148.854,"endTime":1152.784,"body":"Anybody pretty much is welcome."},{"startTime":1152.844,"endTime":1157.524,"body":"Now, having said that, you absolutely want"},{"startTime":1152.844,"endTime":1157.524,"body":"certain class of people in there, group"},{"startTime":1157.524,"endTime":1160.949,"body":"of people, you want your stakeholders in"},{"startTime":1157.524,"endTime":1160.949,"body":"there because you want their feedback."},{"startTime":1161.429,"endTime":1163.769,"body":"You also want something else"},{"startTime":1161.429,"endTime":1163.769,"body":"that's important, that's"},{"startTime":1163.769,"endTime":1165.389,"body":"often not done very, you know?"},{"startTime":1165.889,"endTime":1170.979,"body":"Clearly, which is explicit, implicit"},{"startTime":1165.889,"endTime":1170.979,"body":"approval of the product increment."},{"startTime":1171.099,"endTime":1173.709,"body":"So you're showing something,"},{"startTime":1171.099,"endTime":1173.709,"body":"you're getting feedback."},{"startTime":1173.714,"endTime":1174.059,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1174.309,"endTime":1177.189,"body":", and then you wanna know if"},{"startTime":1174.309,"endTime":1177.189,"body":"you hit the mark or not."},{"startTime":1177.219,"endTime":1178.249,"body":"Yeah , if you didn't."},{"startTime":1178.249,"endTime":1178.669,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1178.879,"endTime":1182.539,"body":"So get that feedback and maybe create"},{"startTime":1178.879,"endTime":1182.539,"body":"some work items in the backlog if"},{"startTime":1182.539,"endTime":1184.989,"body":"you did get that feedback explicitly."},{"startTime":1184.989,"endTime":1185.479,"body":"If possible."},{"startTime":1185.479,"endTime":1185.569,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1185.839,"endTime":1187.369,"body":"just say you accept this, right?"},{"startTime":1187.489,"endTime":1188.559,"body":"Yeah , and then you're."},{"startTime":1189.059,"endTime":1193.039,"body":"The team knows where they stand , but"},{"startTime":1189.059,"endTime":1193.039,"body":"yeah, Anyone's welcome to the"},{"startTime":1193.039,"endTime":1194.809,"body":"Sprint Review, in my opinion."},{"startTime":1194.809,"endTime":1194.869,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1194.869,"endTime":1198.909,"body":"This, this includes anybody in in"},{"startTime":1194.869,"endTime":1198.909,"body":"a matrix environment, a manager,"},{"startTime":1198.909,"endTime":1200.379,"body":"resource manager, whoever it is."},{"startTime":1200.384,"endTime":1201.219,"body":"You're all welcome."},{"startTime":1201.279,"endTime":1201.429,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1201.434,"endTime":1202.989,"body":"Just let the event play out."},{"startTime":1203.259,"endTime":1205.929,"body":"So let the team show what they did."},{"startTime":1205.959,"endTime":1206.199,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1206.289,"endTime":1206.589,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1206.739,"endTime":1210.119,"body":"My only interjection with this one"},{"startTime":1206.739,"endTime":1210.119,"body":"about everyone's welcome is that, so the"},{"startTime":1210.124,"endTime":1214.519,"body":"scrum guide specifically points out the"},{"startTime":1210.124,"endTime":1214.519,"body":"Scrum team presents the results of their"},{"startTime":1214.519,"endTime":1220.269,"body":"work to key stakeholders and progress"},{"startTime":1214.519,"endTime":1220.269,"body":"towards the product goal is discussed."},{"startTime":1220.329,"endTime":1220.479,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1220.719,"endTime":1224.809,"body":". So if, if it's key stakeholders, I mean,"},{"startTime":1220.719,"endTime":1224.809,"body":"they really leave it open ended, right?"},{"startTime":1224.809,"endTime":1229.229,"body":"But key stakeholders to me, . Like we were"},{"startTime":1224.809,"endTime":1229.229,"body":"talking about before when we were talking"},{"startTime":1229.289,"endTime":1232.709,"body":"through the daily Scrum, if you have your"},{"startTime":1229.289,"endTime":1232.709,"body":"development lead kind of chopping at the"},{"startTime":1232.709,"endTime":1235.979,"body":"bit to know what you're ah, I need to know"},{"startTime":1232.709,"endTime":1235.979,"body":"the ins and outs of what you're changing."},{"startTime":1236.429,"endTime":1239.309,"body":"If you have your architect kind"},{"startTime":1236.429,"endTime":1239.309,"body":"of bouncing in to say, Oh, are"},{"startTime":1239.309,"endTime":1240.574,"body":"you using are you using this?"},{"startTime":1240.579,"endTime":1241.234,"body":"Are you using that?"},{"startTime":1241.474,"endTime":1242.524,"body":"You know, are you using this table?"},{"startTime":1242.529,"endTime":1243.844,"body":"Are using queuing, are using whatever."},{"startTime":1244.024,"endTime":1244.294,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1244.704,"endTime":1248.544,"body":"again, to me in the product, if I'm"},{"startTime":1244.704,"endTime":1248.544,"body":"inviting people and I have the opportunity"},{"startTime":1248.544,"endTime":1252.814,"body":"to bring people, , I am trying to"},{"startTime":1248.544,"endTime":1252.814,"body":"bring customers as close as possible."},{"startTime":1252.814,"endTime":1256.884,"body":"So all those people with a stake,"},{"startTime":1252.814,"endTime":1256.884,"body":"stakeholders with a stake, right?"},{"startTime":1257.094,"endTime":1261.734,"body":"All those people who, who want to"},{"startTime":1257.094,"endTime":1261.734,"body":"influence what the team is doing, right?"},{"startTime":1261.764,"endTime":1264.254,"body":", people I typically think of as"},{"startTime":1261.764,"endTime":1264.254,"body":"middle managers in the organization."},{"startTime":1264.614,"endTime":1267.344,"body":"All those people who want"},{"startTime":1264.614,"endTime":1267.344,"body":"influence into what is happening."},{"startTime":1267.844,"endTime":1272.464,"body":"They can all come however, to me, the"},{"startTime":1267.844,"endTime":1272.464,"body":"murkiness of the language used here in"},{"startTime":1272.464,"endTime":1280.094,"body":"the scrum guide kind of waters down that"},{"startTime":1272.464,"endTime":1280.094,"body":"I need my customer's input feedback."},{"startTime":1280.099,"endTime":1284.144,"body":"I need my customer's feedback"},{"startTime":1280.099,"endTime":1284.144,"body":"first, and then everyone else"},{"startTime":1284.144,"endTime":1285.824,"body":"can dogpile it on top of it."},{"startTime":1285.824,"endTime":1288.194,"body":"Like,  the lines of, of, of communication."},{"startTime":1288.194,"endTime":1288.254,"body":"I."},{"startTime":1288.754,"endTime":1289.744,"body":"Them to be a little clear."},{"startTime":1289.744,"endTime":1293.314,"body":"I need, here's my, here's my first line"},{"startTime":1289.744,"endTime":1293.314,"body":"of communication straight to the customer,"},{"startTime":1293.374,"endTime":1295.204,"body":"and then my second, third, whatever."},{"startTime":1295.204,"endTime":1298.144,"body":"Now I'm ready to hear from the architect"},{"startTime":1295.204,"endTime":1298.144,"body":"and the internal manager and the"},{"startTime":1298.149,"endTime":1300.304,"body":"resource managers and whatever else."},{"startTime":1300.514,"endTime":1301.384,"body":"Executives what?"},{"startTime":1301.534,"endTime":1302.734,"body":"Cause they have their own sessions."},{"startTime":1302.739,"endTime":1303.304,"body":"They do."},{"startTime":1303.304,"endTime":1303.934,"body":"You know, they do."},{"startTime":1303.939,"endTime":1304.954,"body":"That is gonna go there."},{"startTime":1304.954,"endTime":1305.164,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1305.164,"endTime":1309.209,"body":"So if the architects and all these"},{"startTime":1305.164,"endTime":1309.209,"body":"people are giving feedback, does that"},{"startTime":1309.209,"endTime":1310.829,"body":"really belong in a sprint review?"},{"startTime":1311.249,"endTime":1313.469,"body":"Because you really are there to."},{"startTime":1313.969,"endTime":1315.679,"body":"Like I say, the fruits"},{"startTime":1313.969,"endTime":1315.679,"body":"of the labor, Right."},{"startTime":1315.949,"endTime":1318.889,"body":"Of the team and get feedback"},{"startTime":1315.949,"endTime":1318.889,"body":"from key stakeholders."},{"startTime":1319.159,"endTime":1321.949,"body":"Customers would be the"},{"startTime":1319.159,"endTime":1321.949,"body":"quintessential key stakeholders."},{"startTime":1321.979,"endTime":1322.039,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1322.044,"endTime":1322.209,"body":"Great."},{"startTime":1322.209,"endTime":1326.034,"body":"Yeah , perhaps the people that are"},{"startTime":1322.209,"endTime":1326.034,"body":"paying for the product project, Right."},{"startTime":1326.034,"endTime":1329.634,"body":"Could be sponsors , yeah, so they would"},{"startTime":1326.034,"endTime":1329.634,"body":"be your primary audience right there."},{"startTime":1329.724,"endTime":1333.414,"body":"And then maybe after that it"},{"startTime":1329.724,"endTime":1333.414,"body":"could be a separate meeting with."},{"startTime":1333.909,"endTime":1335.829,"body":"In, technically in"},{"startTime":1333.909,"endTime":1335.829,"body":"nature, I imagine, right?"},{"startTime":1335.859,"endTime":1336.039,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1336.044,"endTime":1340.889,"body":"With, with q and a type of things"},{"startTime":1336.044,"endTime":1340.889,"body":"with architects, I would say there's"},{"startTime":1340.889,"endTime":1342.509,"body":"some murkiness there, agreed."},{"startTime":1342.539,"endTime":1342.779,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1342.779,"endTime":1345.929,"body":"So for example, if your key stakeholders"},{"startTime":1342.779,"endTime":1345.929,"body":"are what they are, and then you may"},{"startTime":1345.929,"endTime":1350.869,"body":"have people from NIS right network"},{"startTime":1345.929,"endTime":1350.869,"body":"information security in there."},{"startTime":1350.869,"endTime":1352.339,"body":"You may have compliance people in there."},{"startTime":1352.339,"endTime":1355.279,"body":"They're not directly your key"},{"startTime":1352.339,"endTime":1355.279,"body":"stakeholders, but they're questioning."},{"startTime":1355.459,"endTime":1357.049,"body":"Yeah, because you are now saying this."},{"startTime":1357.549,"endTime":1361.029,"body":"Accepted by the key stakeholders,"},{"startTime":1357.549,"endTime":1361.029,"body":"therefore it's ready to go to production."},{"startTime":1361.059,"endTime":1361.149,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1361.419,"endTime":1365.289,"body":", if it's ready to go to production, they"},{"startTime":1361.419,"endTime":1365.289,"body":"are entitled to ask you those questions."},{"startTime":1365.289,"endTime":1366.759,"body":"Has it been vetted, et cetera."},{"startTime":1366.759,"endTime":1367.029,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1367.269,"endTime":1371.449,"body":"Do you have the right blessings from"},{"startTime":1367.269,"endTime":1371.449,"body":"these different, organizational entities?"},{"startTime":1371.454,"endTime":1371.959,"body":"That's fine."},{"startTime":1371.964,"endTime":1374.629,"body":"So, so in that case, they're"},{"startTime":1371.964,"endTime":1374.629,"body":"also stakeholders because"},{"startTime":1374.629,"endTime":1375.859,"body":"they're asking these questions."},{"startTime":1376.069,"endTime":1376.159,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1376.189,"endTime":1376.459,"body":"Fine."},{"startTime":1376.459,"endTime":1377.149,"body":"Entertain them."},{"startTime":1377.179,"endTime":1377.449,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1377.449,"endTime":1378.049,"body":"That's okay"},{"startTime":1378.519,"endTime":1381.639,"body":"it is murky , and it takes"},{"startTime":1378.519,"endTime":1381.639,"body":"some time to get it right."},{"startTime":1381.644,"endTime":1381.979,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1382.239,"endTime":1383.829,"body":"For any group of stakeholders."},{"startTime":1383.979,"endTime":1387.059,"body":"I wonder the, the process of"},{"startTime":1383.979,"endTime":1387.059,"body":"this, let, let's say for example,"},{"startTime":1387.059,"endTime":1389.099,"body":"cuz we, we don't talk about this"},{"startTime":1387.059,"endTime":1389.099,"body":"enough on the podcast either."},{"startTime":1389.279,"endTime":1391.859,"body":"Let's say for example, you're,"},{"startTime":1389.279,"endTime":1391.859,"body":"you're making software."},{"startTime":1392.034,"endTime":1396.144,"body":"to be the B2B software to be used by"},{"startTime":1392.034,"endTime":1396.144,"body":"customers that, that are not internal"},{"startTime":1396.149,"endTime":1398.004,"body":"only, like actually meant to use by Sure."},{"startTime":1398.244,"endTime":1401.934,"body":"So there are people paying"},{"startTime":1398.244,"endTime":1401.934,"body":"for features to be developed."},{"startTime":1401.939,"endTime":1402.144,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1402.144,"endTime":1406.244,"body":"So in your sprint review, you"},{"startTime":1402.144,"endTime":1406.244,"body":"probably have representatives of the"},{"startTime":1406.334,"endTime":1411.454,"body":"users, customers, meaning customers,"},{"startTime":1406.334,"endTime":1411.454,"body":"users, but also you probably have"},{"startTime":1411.454,"endTime":1415.654,"body":"a, a, maybe a rep, maybe one Usually"},{"startTime":1411.454,"endTime":1415.654,"body":"don't get more than one of this"},{"startTime":1415.654,"endTime":1417.984,"body":"type of, this class of stakeholder."},{"startTime":1418.574,"endTime":1420.404,"body":"of the people that are paying."},{"startTime":1420.904,"endTime":1421.204,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1421.204,"endTime":1424.354,"body":"So now you have, because B2B software,"},{"startTime":1421.204,"endTime":1424.354,"body":"usually you have two classes."},{"startTime":1424.354,"endTime":1427.264,"body":"You have a class that is paying for the"},{"startTime":1424.354,"endTime":1427.264,"body":"software, and class is using the software."},{"startTime":1427.264,"endTime":1427.504,"body":"So Right."},{"startTime":1427.804,"endTime":1429.934,"body":"Hopefully you have at least one of."},{"startTime":1430.434,"endTime":1433.914,"body":"Oh, maybe more, maybe more users"},{"startTime":1430.434,"endTime":1433.914,"body":"usually than the person paying."},{"startTime":1433.914,"endTime":1438.364,"body":"But the idea is you'll have the"},{"startTime":1433.914,"endTime":1438.364,"body":"customers on the part of the call, right?"},{"startTime":1438.364,"endTime":1440.404,"body":"And they'll have questions and"},{"startTime":1438.364,"endTime":1440.404,"body":"they'll have things they wanna"},{"startTime":1440.404,"endTime":1442.294,"body":"talk about, and it's okay if they"},{"startTime":1440.404,"endTime":1442.294,"body":"talk to each other, whatever."},{"startTime":1442.504,"endTime":1446.644,"body":"But then that, that whole grouping of"},{"startTime":1442.504,"endTime":1446.644,"body":"internal, like when you get done with"},{"startTime":1446.649,"endTime":1452.024,"body":"them procedurally is it cool to say like,"},{"startTime":1446.649,"endTime":1452.024,"body":"Okay, we're done with the first part of"},{"startTime":1452.024,"endTime":1455.144,"body":"the meeting, and then the customers drop"},{"startTime":1452.024,"endTime":1455.144,"body":"off and then you continue with the in."},{"startTime":1455.644,"endTime":1460.774,"body":"People,  I mean, I would hope that"},{"startTime":1455.644,"endTime":1460.774,"body":"you don't have that many requirements"},{"startTime":1460.779,"endTime":1463.704,"body":"where you have to  where with the"},{"startTime":1460.779,"endTime":1463.704,"body":"same features you have to serve"},{"startTime":1463.704,"endTime":1465.414,"body":"two different personas, right?"},{"startTime":1465.414,"endTime":1467.034,"body":"The internal persona and the external."},{"startTime":1467.244,"endTime":1471.164,"body":"I would hope that you separate your"},{"startTime":1467.244,"endTime":1471.164,"body":"stories, but would you do some kind of."},{"startTime":1471.664,"endTime":1473.464,"body":"External sprint review,"},{"startTime":1471.664,"endTime":1473.464,"body":"internal sprint review."},{"startTime":1473.464,"endTime":1476.734,"body":"So you can separate the audiences,"},{"startTime":1473.464,"endTime":1476.734,"body":"or we just add 'em all together"},{"startTime":1476.734,"endTime":1478.234,"body":"and let everything come out in one."},{"startTime":1478.414,"endTime":1480.184,"body":"I prefer the latter , and here's why."},{"startTime":1480.184,"endTime":1482.354,"body":"So let's say in that"},{"startTime":1480.184,"endTime":1482.354,"body":"scenario where you have."},{"startTime":1482.654,"endTime":1486.224,"body":"The two classes of stakeholders you"},{"startTime":1482.654,"endTime":1486.224,"body":"mentioned, the users and people paying for"},{"startTime":1486.224,"endTime":1488.584,"body":"it, the external ones, let's say, right?"},{"startTime":1488.644,"endTime":1488.734,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1488.974,"endTime":1493.324,"body":". So if you're in that same event, you"},{"startTime":1488.974,"endTime":1493.324,"body":"can certainly show what you've done,"},{"startTime":1493.324,"endTime":1497.844,"body":"et cetera, get feedback, and then"},{"startTime":1493.324,"endTime":1497.844,"body":"the internal ones where architects"},{"startTime":1497.849,"endTime":1501.714,"body":"or others maybe asking about some"},{"startTime":1497.849,"endTime":1501.714,"body":"technical debt refactoring et."},{"startTime":1502.214,"endTime":1505.874,"body":", I'm fine with those other"},{"startTime":1502.214,"endTime":1505.874,"body":"people also hearing this."},{"startTime":1505.994,"endTime":1506.054,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1506.114,"endTime":1511.574,"body":"Because what it does is, at least"},{"startTime":1506.114,"endTime":1511.574,"body":"from my perspective, is it raises"},{"startTime":1511.579,"endTime":1514.184,"body":"their confidence that we're"},{"startTime":1511.579,"endTime":1514.184,"body":"improving the quality of the product."},{"startTime":1514.334,"endTime":1514.364,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":1514.604,"endTime":1514.964,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1515.234,"endTime":1517.364,"body":"So I don't have any issues"},{"startTime":1515.234,"endTime":1517.364,"body":"with them listening."},{"startTime":1517.369,"endTime":1520.424,"body":"And plus the other thing it does"},{"startTime":1517.369,"endTime":1520.424,"body":"is it sets their expectation on"},{"startTime":1520.694,"endTime":1522.374,"body":"what can, how much can we deliver?"},{"startTime":1522.374,"endTime":1522.614,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1522.614,"endTime":1525.524,"body":"Because we're also spending"},{"startTime":1522.614,"endTime":1525.524,"body":"time on improving things."},{"startTime":1525.524,"endTime":1525.734,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1525.764,"endTime":1526.004,"body":"Not."},{"startTime":1526.504,"endTime":1527.584,"body":"Delivering things."},{"startTime":1528.004,"endTime":1528.994,"body":"So I'm okay with that."},{"startTime":1528.994,"endTime":1533.644,"body":"So one meeting would be my preference,"},{"startTime":1528.994,"endTime":1533.644,"body":"but again, the scrum doesn't dictate that."},{"startTime":1533.644,"endTime":1536.734,"body":"So if it works better for you,"},{"startTime":1533.644,"endTime":1536.734,"body":"it's separate ones, then fine."},{"startTime":1536.974,"endTime":1539.474,"body":"Well, I think that's more a"},{"startTime":1536.974,"endTime":1539.474,"body":"cultural thing more than anything."},{"startTime":1539.724,"endTime":1542.094,"body":"going back to the last podcast we"},{"startTime":1539.724,"endTime":1542.094,"body":"talked about, like I, I certainly"},{"startTime":1542.094,"endTime":1543.504,"body":"could see some, some risk a."},{"startTime":1544.004,"endTime":1547.824,"body":"Managers in the organization say, I don't"},{"startTime":1544.004,"endTime":1547.824,"body":"want to talk about any shortcomings in"},{"startTime":1547.824,"endTime":1549.174,"body":"the software in front of the customers."},{"startTime":1549.174,"endTime":1551.084,"body":"I don't know but like come on."},{"startTime":1551.084,"endTime":1553.874,"body":"Are they like, they use it every day,"},{"startTime":1551.084,"endTime":1553.874,"body":"like a they would know you would."},{"startTime":1553.934,"endTime":1554.374,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1554.379,"endTime":1555.334,"body":"Yeah , Okay."},{"startTime":1555.394,"endTime":1556.234,"body":"Well, the sprint review."},{"startTime":1556.234,"endTime":1559.624,"body":"So the sprint review is kind of the,"},{"startTime":1556.234,"endTime":1559.624,"body":"that's the one where I, I, I really"},{"startTime":1559.624,"endTime":1561.424,"body":"don't have very many stances at all."},{"startTime":1561.424,"endTime":1566.314,"body":"A a little bit of organization, the"},{"startTime":1561.424,"endTime":1566.314,"body":"only kind of somewhat of a firm stance"},{"startTime":1566.314,"endTime":1569.514,"body":"I have for the sprint review is I need"},{"startTime":1566.314,"endTime":1569.514,"body":"the customer channel of communication."},{"startTime":1570.014,"endTime":1570.824,"body":"I need to hear that."},{"startTime":1571.004,"endTime":1572.924,"body":"So anybody else is there is fine."},{"startTime":1572.954,"endTime":1573.524,"body":"No problem."},{"startTime":1573.524,"endTime":1575.714,"body":"They can be there, but they need"},{"startTime":1573.524,"endTime":1575.714,"body":"to un It's kinda like the daily,"},{"startTime":1575.894,"endTime":1577.544,"body":"the daily scrum, like right."},{"startTime":1577.634,"endTime":1581.384,"body":"You can, you can show up, but"},{"startTime":1577.634,"endTime":1581.384,"body":"remember like, I need the free flow"},{"startTime":1581.389,"endTime":1583.244,"body":"of information between developers."},{"startTime":1583.544,"endTime":1587.414,"body":"That needs to happen between the"},{"startTime":1583.544,"endTime":1587.414,"body":"customers and, and myself product."},{"startTime":1587.654,"endTime":1591.814,"body":"Right , if anybody's jumping in in the"},{"startTime":1587.654,"endTime":1591.814,"body":"middle of that, or distracting, that's"},{"startTime":1591.814,"endTime":1594.064,"body":"gonna be a problem and we're gonna"},{"startTime":1591.814,"endTime":1594.064,"body":"have a one on one to deal with it."},{"startTime":1594.064,"endTime":1594.574,"body":"For sure."},{"startTime":1594.694,"endTime":1595.084,"body":"I agree."},{"startTime":1595.084,"endTime":1596.224,"body":"Absolutely fully."},{"startTime":1596.284,"endTime":1596.704,"body":"It's not, you're."},{"startTime":1597.204,"endTime":1599.544,"body":"You know, it's, it's not gonna be"},{"startTime":1597.204,"endTime":1599.544,"body":"a one on one with a scrum master."},{"startTime":1599.544,"endTime":1603.054,"body":"It's gonna be a one on one with product"},{"startTime":1599.544,"endTime":1603.054,"body":"to say, Hey, you're, you're disrupting me."},{"startTime":1603.054,"endTime":1606.084,"body":"You're making it difficult for me"},{"startTime":1603.054,"endTime":1606.084,"body":"to get what I need in product, which"},{"startTime":1606.084,"endTime":1607.374,"body":"is That's a whole different podcast."},{"startTime":1607.464,"endTime":1608.454,"body":"Absolutely agree"},{"startTime":1608.954,"endTime":1609.704,"body":"sprint planning."},{"startTime":1609.794,"endTime":1611.414,"body":"Sprint planning."},{"startTime":1611.624,"endTime":1615.114,"body":"Goodness , this is quite a long"},{"startTime":1611.624,"endTime":1615.114,"body":"event , let's see, in terms of time,"},{"startTime":1615.204,"endTime":1616.474,"body":"let's see what the scrum guide says."},{"startTime":1616.494,"endTime":1617.724,"body":"Yeah, let's see what the scrum guy says."},{"startTime":1617.979,"endTime":1620.019,"body":"Product owner ensures that"},{"startTime":1617.979,"endTime":1620.019,"body":"attendees are prepared."},{"startTime":1620.519,"endTime":1624.499,"body":"The Scrum team may also invite"},{"startTime":1620.519,"endTime":1624.499,"body":"other people to attend Sprint"},{"startTime":1624.499,"endTime":1626.029,"body":"planning to provide advice."},{"startTime":1626.529,"endTime":1630.689,"body":"So this, this is where I think about"},{"startTime":1626.529,"endTime":1630.689,"body":"people like, you know say performance"},{"startTime":1630.689,"endTime":1635.639,"body":"testers or other external skill sets that"},{"startTime":1630.689,"endTime":1635.639,"body":"you don't have on the team necessarily."},{"startTime":1635.729,"endTime":1635.819,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1635.819,"endTime":1637.589,"body":"That you need for that sprint."},{"startTime":1637.769,"endTime":1637.859,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1638.159,"endTime":1641.849,"body":". So there wouldn't necessarily"},{"startTime":1638.159,"endTime":1641.849,"body":"be standing participants for"},{"startTime":1641.854,"endTime":1643.109,"body":"every sprint planning event."},{"startTime":1643.599,"endTime":1644.289,"body":"I would think."},{"startTime":1644.294,"endTime":1644.559,"body":"Right, Right."},{"startTime":1644.559,"endTime":1646.269,"body":"You would just bring"},{"startTime":1644.559,"endTime":1646.269,"body":"them in as you need them."},{"startTime":1646.769,"endTime":1649.939,"body":"UX is another example , ui ux people,"},{"startTime":1646.769,"endTime":1649.939,"body":"if you need 'em, bring them in."},{"startTime":1649.999,"endTime":1653.119,"body":"Yeah , so yeah, I, I think this"},{"startTime":1649.999,"endTime":1653.119,"body":"one is also fairly straightforward."},{"startTime":1653.119,"endTime":1653.779,"body":"Sprint planning."},{"startTime":1653.779,"endTime":1659.284,"body":"Anybody, again, anybody who's going to be"},{"startTime":1653.779,"endTime":1659.284,"body":"working on items during the sprint have to"},{"startTime":1659.284,"endTime":1664.794,"body":"be there, which is your dev team , testers"},{"startTime":1659.284,"endTime":1664.794,"body":"and facilitation wise, the scrum master"},{"startTime":1664.794,"endTime":1669.854,"body":"typically is, your, your business analyst"},{"startTime":1664.794,"endTime":1669.854,"body":"is there if you have those, but yeah,"},{"startTime":1669.854,"endTime":1673.834,"body":"external folks can be there , testers"},{"startTime":1669.854,"endTime":1673.834,"body":"performance testers and the likes."},{"startTime":1673.894,"endTime":1674.824,"body":"Architects, maybe."},{"startTime":1674.824,"endTime":1674.914,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1675.314,"endTime":1678.759,"body":", if you need architectural guidance"},{"startTime":1675.314,"endTime":1678.759,"body":"security or compliance people, if"},{"startTime":1678.764,"endTime":1679.959,"body":"you need their guidance, Right."},{"startTime":1679.959,"endTime":1680.019,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1680.019,"endTime":1685.439,"body":"They can be invited , but again, they're"},{"startTime":1680.019,"endTime":1685.439,"body":"not standing participants for every event."},{"startTime":1685.939,"endTime":1689.029,"body":"I have typically done the"},{"startTime":1685.939,"endTime":1689.029,"body":"sprint planning in two parts."},{"startTime":1689.029,"endTime":1691.609,"body":"I, The first part is what we're"},{"startTime":1689.029,"endTime":1691.609,"body":"gonna try to bring into the sprint."},{"startTime":1691.609,"endTime":1695.799,"body":"Well def, well, actually the first part is"},{"startTime":1691.609,"endTime":1695.799,"body":"defining the goal, negotiating the goal."},{"startTime":1695.859,"endTime":1696.489,"body":"That's a better way."},{"startTime":1696.489,"endTime":1696.699,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1696.939,"endTime":1700.119,"body":"Negotiating the goal and then figuring out"},{"startTime":1696.939,"endTime":1700.119,"body":"what we're gonna bring into the sprint."},{"startTime":1700.119,"endTime":1703.499,"body":"The second part is how we're"},{"startTime":1700.119,"endTime":1703.499,"body":"gonna take what's in the sprint,"},{"startTime":1703.499,"endTime":1705.289,"body":"How we're going to develop it."},{"startTime":1705.469,"endTime":1709.329,"body":"Yeah, like the plan, the low level"},{"startTime":1705.469,"endTime":1709.329,"body":"plan, so,  when I think about saying"},{"startTime":1709.329,"endTime":1710.709,"body":"like, well, this is a pretty open event."},{"startTime":1710.709,"endTime":1712.209,"body":"Like it's it's kind of open to everybody."},{"startTime":1712.389,"endTime":1715.869,"body":"Like if you break it in half the second"},{"startTime":1712.389,"endTime":1715.869,"body":"part where it's just the developers"},{"startTime":1716.369,"endTime":1718.229,"body":"figuring out how they're gonna plan work."},{"startTime":1718.349,"endTime":1718.619,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1718.669,"endTime":1722.059,"body":"They can reach out to, to people"},{"startTime":1718.669,"endTime":1722.059,"body":"in the organization bring in to"},{"startTime":1722.064,"endTime":1723.819,"body":"talk about whatever they need."},{"startTime":1724.149,"endTime":1727.689,"body":"Basically, the development team members,"},{"startTime":1724.149,"endTime":1727.689,"body":"while they're breaking the work down to"},{"startTime":1727.689,"endTime":1731.969,"body":"figure out how they're gonna implement"},{"startTime":1727.689,"endTime":1731.969,"body":"everything, to basically have access to."},{"startTime":1732.469,"endTime":1735.049,"body":"Whoever they need to have"},{"startTime":1732.469,"endTime":1735.049,"body":"access to in the organization."},{"startTime":1735.549,"endTime":1738.249,"body":"Right Back when everyone was still"},{"startTime":1735.549,"endTime":1738.249,"body":"working out of an office, usually,"},{"startTime":1738.249,"endTime":1742.029,"body":"whether, like for me, this was like"},{"startTime":1738.249,"endTime":1742.029,"body":"a Monday, we would do this on Monday"},{"startTime":1742.029,"endTime":1743.709,"body":"afternoon would be the sprint planning."},{"startTime":1743.709,"endTime":1747.789,"body":"Be lunchtime, they'd carry your lunch,"},{"startTime":1743.709,"endTime":1747.789,"body":"we'd kick everything off, and then"},{"startTime":1747.789,"endTime":1749.439,"body":"you'd be there until everyone went home."},{"startTime":1749.439,"endTime":1751.239,"body":"You'd be in the room"},{"startTime":1749.439,"endTime":1751.239,"body":"until everyone went home."},{"startTime":1751.449,"endTime":1751.629,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1751.869,"endTime":1752.999,"body":"and knock it all out on a Monday."},{"startTime":1753.499,"endTime":1756.639,"body":"And that, which is, that was the"},{"startTime":1753.499,"endTime":1756.639,"body":"only team that ever did Mondays for"},{"startTime":1756.644,"endTime":1758.079,"body":"me, , like the rest of my career."},{"startTime":1758.079,"endTime":1758.649,"body":"No, no."},{"startTime":1758.649,"endTime":1761.139,"body":"Every, every other team has"},{"startTime":1758.649,"endTime":1761.139,"body":"avoided Mondays like the plague."},{"startTime":1761.139,"endTime":1761.289,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1761.559,"endTime":1764.619,"body":"But they, but they, they did it on"},{"startTime":1761.559,"endTime":1764.619,"body":"Monday, worked for them, and they"},{"startTime":1764.619,"endTime":1768.429,"body":"basically would take over a conference"},{"startTime":1764.619,"endTime":1768.429,"body":"room with the whole team and then they"},{"startTime":1768.429,"endTime":1770.259,"body":"would, everyone would know that it."},{"startTime":1770.689,"endTime":1771.769,"body":"Dev team's doing planning."},{"startTime":1771.979,"endTime":1773.329,"body":"It's Monday morning, Dev"},{"startTime":1771.979,"endTime":1773.329,"body":"team's doing planning."},{"startTime":1773.329,"endTime":1776.269,"body":"Everybody knew, or Monday afternoon,"},{"startTime":1773.329,"endTime":1776.269,"body":"I'm sorry, every dev team's"},{"startTime":1776.269,"endTime":1779.529,"body":"doing planning and they would"},{"startTime":1776.269,"endTime":1779.529,"body":"go pull people back in the room."},{"startTime":1779.529,"endTime":1783.149,"body":"And, and for the second part, for"},{"startTime":1779.529,"endTime":1783.149,"body":"the, how the product owner would"},{"startTime":1783.149,"endTime":1786.259,"body":"leave, they'd still be in the building"},{"startTime":1783.149,"endTime":1786.259,"body":"so they could still get them and"},{"startTime":1786.259,"endTime":1788.269,"body":"bring them back or call 'em on the"},{"startTime":1786.259,"endTime":1788.269,"body":"phone and tell 'em to come back."},{"startTime":1788.634,"endTime":1790.404,"body":"But they wouldn't be in the room."},{"startTime":1790.404,"endTime":1791.604,"body":"This is a, Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1791.604,"endTime":1794.004,"body":"This is, that was a pretty typical"},{"startTime":1791.604,"endTime":1794.004,"body":"thing with, with that team though."},{"startTime":1794.364,"endTime":1794.544,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1794.544,"endTime":1796.254,"body":"That's when the team's"},{"startTime":1794.544,"endTime":1796.254,"body":"figuring out the how."},{"startTime":1796.314,"endTime":1796.584,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1796.584,"endTime":1797.634,"body":"So, yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":1797.639,"endTime":1801.289,"body":"But, but the first part I remember"},{"startTime":1797.639,"endTime":1801.289,"body":"like we did some work for the"},{"startTime":1801.559,"endTime":1803.509,"body":"financial accounting people."},{"startTime":1803.564,"endTime":1805.934,"body":"Sometimes we brought in customers,"},{"startTime":1803.564,"endTime":1805.934,"body":"sometimes we brought in sales"},{"startTime":1805.934,"endTime":1808.274,"body":"people, depending on what things"},{"startTime":1805.934,"endTime":1808.274,"body":"they were selling and whatnot."},{"startTime":1808.754,"endTime":1811.829,"body":"Sometimes there was other executives"},{"startTime":1808.754,"endTime":1811.829,"body":"or sometimes we'd bring in people"},{"startTime":1811.829,"endTime":1814.349,"body":"from marketing if we were trying"},{"startTime":1811.829,"endTime":1814.349,"body":"to do a feature that they were"},{"startTime":1814.349,"endTime":1815.459,"body":"launching on a certain date."},{"startTime":1815.559,"endTime":1819.619,"body":"I guess where I'm going with this"},{"startTime":1815.559,"endTime":1819.619,"body":"is there was a lot of coordination"},{"startTime":1819.649,"endTime":1823.269,"body":"throughout the business to say, Hey,"},{"startTime":1819.649,"endTime":1823.269,"body":"these features are at the top of the back."},{"startTime":1823.769,"endTime":1828.189,"body":"We think these are the ones we're"},{"startTime":1823.769,"endTime":1828.189,"body":"gonna talk about in the next sprint."},{"startTime":1828.219,"endTime":1828.489,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1828.909,"endTime":1834.579,"body":". So can you be ready if we call you to"},{"startTime":1828.909,"endTime":1834.579,"body":"come into the room at this block of time?"},{"startTime":1834.759,"endTime":1834.939,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1835.149,"endTime":1835.389,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1835.394,"endTime":1838.389,"body":"And if not in this block of time, then"},{"startTime":1835.394,"endTime":1838.389,"body":"let's, let's put on something, on a"},{"startTime":1838.394,"endTime":1841.779,"body":"schedule that's in the block of time"},{"startTime":1838.394,"endTime":1841.779,"body":"specifically to get you in the room."},{"startTime":1842.229,"endTime":1842.769,"body":"Talk about So,"},{"startTime":1842.769,"endTime":1845.914,"body":"in places that I've been that did not"},{"startTime":1842.769,"endTime":1845.914,"body":"have a dedicated scrum master on the team."},{"startTime":1846.334,"endTime":1852.404,"body":"A lot of that fly by wire coordination,"},{"startTime":1846.334,"endTime":1852.404,"body":"figure it out on the way, like the product"},{"startTime":1852.584,"endTime":1854.984,"body":"did a lot of that and product becomes a."},{"startTime":1855.404,"endTime":1859.484,"body":"Like very overwhelming when you're"},{"startTime":1855.404,"endTime":1859.484,"body":"trying to do all this discovery stuff."},{"startTime":1859.814,"endTime":1862.484,"body":"Figure out the future,"},{"startTime":1859.814,"endTime":1862.484,"body":"the meet with customers."},{"startTime":1862.674,"endTime":1863.664,"body":"Drum up business."},{"startTime":1863.724,"endTime":1863.874,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1863.904,"endTime":1867.354,"body":"Kind of working with sales at"},{"startTime":1863.904,"endTime":1867.354,"body":"the same time, and also doing the"},{"startTime":1867.354,"endTime":1871.884,"body":"team activities and also trying to"},{"startTime":1867.354,"endTime":1871.884,"body":"schedule everyone at the same time."},{"startTime":1871.884,"endTime":1874.974,"body":"And it's, it's, yeah, it's too"},{"startTime":1871.884,"endTime":1874.974,"body":"big a lift most times, right?"},{"startTime":1875.084,"endTime":1875.404,"body":"Because."},{"startTime":1875.769,"endTime":1878.949,"body":"Product side of the house for"},{"startTime":1875.769,"endTime":1878.949,"body":"most organizations isn't all that"},{"startTime":1878.949,"endTime":1881.249,"body":"well matured, let's just say."},{"startTime":1881.249,"endTime":1884.159,"body":"Right , but yeah, I, I think that's"},{"startTime":1881.249,"endTime":1884.159,"body":"fairly straightforward as well."},{"startTime":1884.159,"endTime":1886.109,"body":"Then when it comes to"},{"startTime":1884.159,"endTime":1886.109,"body":"sprint planning, right?"},{"startTime":1886.159,"endTime":1886.469,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1886.469,"endTime":1888.599,"body":"Get, get whoever you need"},{"startTime":1886.469,"endTime":1888.599,"body":"to make things happen."},{"startTime":1888.599,"endTime":1889.259,"body":"That's the key."},{"startTime":1889.319,"endTime":1890.309,"body":"Who, who do you need?"},{"startTime":1890.309,"endTime":1892.859,"body":"And it's not the same people"},{"startTime":1890.309,"endTime":1892.859,"body":"every sprint planning necessarily."},{"startTime":1892.859,"endTime":1893.039,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1893.539,"endTime":1896.094,"body":"I, I mean, other than obviously"},{"startTime":1893.539,"endTime":1896.094,"body":"the product owner and the dev team."},{"startTime":1896.094,"endTime":1896.244,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1896.244,"endTime":1896.724,"body":"It does change."},{"startTime":1896.724,"endTime":1896.904,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1896.904,"endTime":1897.444,"body":"Well, it does."},{"startTime":1897.474,"endTime":1900.054,"body":"Well, exactly what I just said is"},{"startTime":1897.474,"endTime":1900.054,"body":"some sprints, you're trying to launch"},{"startTime":1900.054,"endTime":1901.194,"body":"stuff for marketing some sprints."},{"startTime":1901.194,"endTime":1903.294,"body":"You're trying to, to help sales"},{"startTime":1901.194,"endTime":1903.294,"body":"with the commitment they made"},{"startTime":1903.294,"endTime":1903.744,"body":"some, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1903.924,"endTime":1905.184,"body":"It's different, different people."},{"startTime":1905.304,"endTime":1907.014,"body":"Yeah , different things"},{"startTime":1905.304,"endTime":1907.014,"body":"and different sprints."},{"startTime":1907.019,"endTime":1911.334,"body":"Yeah for those teams where I have been"},{"startTime":1907.019,"endTime":1911.334,"body":"the only product person and there has"},{"startTime":1911.334,"endTime":1917.274,"body":"not been a scrum master to extend and"},{"startTime":1911.334,"endTime":1917.274,"body":"help me with all this alignment, basical."},{"startTime":1917.774,"endTime":1922.604,"body":"I try to shift as much of it as"},{"startTime":1917.774,"endTime":1922.604,"body":"possible into backlog refinement."},{"startTime":1922.874,"endTime":1927.074,"body":"So all those questions are worked out"},{"startTime":1922.874,"endTime":1927.074,"body":"before we ever get to sprint planning."},{"startTime":1927.084,"endTime":1927.244,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1927.344,"endTime":1927.614,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1927.619,"endTime":1930.254,"body":"And, and that, what I find is"},{"startTime":1927.619,"endTime":1930.254,"body":"that makes backlog refinement."},{"startTime":1930.254,"endTime":1933.374,"body":"Like I don't, Let's, let's see what the"},{"startTime":1930.254,"endTime":1933.374,"body":"thing has to say about backlog refinement."},{"startTime":1933.874,"endTime":1934.354,"body":"I don't know why."},{"startTime":1934.354,"endTime":1936.754,"body":"I'm always, I'm always shocked"},{"startTime":1934.354,"endTime":1936.754,"body":"that doesn't say anything"},{"startTime":1936.754,"endTime":1937.684,"body":"about backlog refinement."},{"startTime":1938.184,"endTime":1940.944,"body":"I think the word refinement"},{"startTime":1938.184,"endTime":1940.944,"body":"may only occur like once"},{"startTime":1940.944,"endTime":1943.884,"body":"Product backlog refinement is the"},{"startTime":1940.944,"endTime":1943.884,"body":"act of breaking down and further"},{"startTime":1943.884,"endTime":1947.184,"body":"defining product backlog items"},{"startTime":1943.884,"endTime":1947.184,"body":"in smaller, more precise items."},{"startTime":1947.214,"endTime":1950.214,"body":"This is an ongoing activity and"},{"startTime":1947.214,"endTime":1950.214,"body":"adds details such as description,"},{"startTime":1950.214,"endTime":1953.744,"body":"order and size Attributes opt"},{"startTime":1950.214,"endTime":1953.744,"body":"often vary with the domain of work."},{"startTime":1953.744,"endTime":1956.984,"body":"Developers who will be doing the"},{"startTime":1953.744,"endTime":1956.984,"body":"work are responsible for the sizing."},{"startTime":1956.984,"endTime":1960.074,"body":"The product owner may influence"},{"startTime":1956.984,"endTime":1960.074,"body":"the developers by helping them"},{"startTime":1960.074,"endTime":1961.904,"body":"understand and select trade off."},{"startTime":1961.904,"endTime":1964.904,"body":"So yeah, the product owner working"},{"startTime":1961.904,"endTime":1964.904,"body":"with the developers and the scrum"},{"startTime":1964.904,"endTime":1968.384,"body":"team, product backlog refinement,"},{"startTime":1964.904,"endTime":1968.384,"body":"even though it doesn't specifically."},{"startTime":1968.634,"endTime":1972.384,"body":"The scrum guy kind of skirts this, but"},{"startTime":1968.634,"endTime":1972.384,"body":"again, the more stuff that you push"},{"startTime":1972.384,"endTime":1976.754,"body":"off into the backlog refinement, the"},{"startTime":1972.384,"endTime":1976.754,"body":"quicker your sprint plane's gonna go."},{"startTime":1976.844,"endTime":1976.964,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1976.964,"endTime":1979.784,"body":"my opinions on this have kind"},{"startTime":1976.964,"endTime":1979.784,"body":"of been softened over time."},{"startTime":1980.234,"endTime":1983.654,"body":", because I've done backlog"},{"startTime":1980.234,"endTime":1983.654,"body":"refinements on a schedule same day"},{"startTime":1983.654,"endTime":1985.094,"body":"and time, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1985.094,"endTime":1986.634,"body":"Same length of time box or whatever."},{"startTime":1987.134,"endTime":1991.054,"body":"I, I do them at the same place at"},{"startTime":1987.134,"endTime":1991.054,"body":"the same time, and that's one method."},{"startTime":1991.474,"endTime":1994.234,"body":"Other backlog, refinements"},{"startTime":1991.474,"endTime":1994.234,"body":"have been completely ad hoc."},{"startTime":1994.734,"endTime":1998.214,"body":"As soon as we see a need for something,"},{"startTime":1994.734,"endTime":1998.214,"body":"I'm just gonna look at people's s find"},{"startTime":1998.214,"endTime":2001.244,"body":"the next spot, and boom, I'm gonna take"},{"startTime":1998.214,"endTime":2001.244,"body":"it and we're gonna do some refinement."},{"startTime":2001.274,"endTime":2005.294,"body":"If the developers feel they need to do"},{"startTime":2001.274,"endTime":2005.294,"body":"a bit of solutioning to kind of feel"},{"startTime":2005.299,"endTime":2007.184,"body":"their way through it, hey, whatever."},{"startTime":2007.214,"endTime":2008.354,"body":"Like we'll get there, right?"},{"startTime":2008.504,"endTime":2008.714,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2008.714,"endTime":2010.544,"body":"You know, and all that work."},{"startTime":2010.794,"endTime":2011.934,"body":"If you were really a stick."},{"startTime":2012.434,"endTime":2016.304,"body":"For financial accounting of times"},{"startTime":2012.434,"endTime":2016.304,"body":"and capitalization, stuff like that."},{"startTime":2016.804,"endTime":2019.894,"body":"There is a way you could take the"},{"startTime":2016.804,"endTime":2019.894,"body":"time spent in backlog refinement and"},{"startTime":2019.894,"endTime":2022.804,"body":"the time spent in sprint planning"},{"startTime":2019.894,"endTime":2022.804,"body":"and roll it all together and say,"},{"startTime":2022.954,"endTime":2024.334,"body":"this is the same planning time."},{"startTime":2024.339,"endTime":2025.024,"body":"It's the same bucket."},{"startTime":2025.029,"endTime":2025.494,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2025.504,"endTime":2026.554,"body":"It's planning time, right?"},{"startTime":2026.554,"endTime":2026.614,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2026.974,"endTime":2032.304,"body":"But for, for easily 90% of the"},{"startTime":2026.974,"endTime":2032.304,"body":"shops that I've been at, they don't"},{"startTime":2032.304,"endTime":2034.984,"body":"do that level of granular Yeah."},{"startTime":2035.044,"endTime":2035.314,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2035.344,"endTime":2035.854,"body":"They, yeah."},{"startTime":2035.884,"endTime":2038.104,"body":"They don't analysis on"},{"startTime":2035.884,"endTime":2038.104,"body":"people sign, They just don."},{"startTime":2038.604,"endTime":2042.054,"body":"Yeah, so, so I, for backlog,"},{"startTime":2038.604,"endTime":2042.054,"body":"refinement, whoever your audience"},{"startTime":2042.054,"endTime":2043.504,"body":"is for the sprint planning."},{"startTime":2044.004,"endTime":2046.614,"body":"Could also be the same audience"},{"startTime":2044.004,"endTime":2046.614,"body":"for backlog refinement."},{"startTime":2046.614,"endTime":2047.064,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2047.064,"endTime":2047.364,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2047.364,"endTime":2052.484,"body":"I mean, it's whoever's primarily,"},{"startTime":2047.364,"endTime":2052.484,"body":"the biggest group there is the"},{"startTime":2052.484,"endTime":2053.744,"body":"group of people doing the work."},{"startTime":2054.014,"endTime":2054.194,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2054.254,"endTime":2057.829,"body":"Plus the product owner to explain"},{"startTime":2054.254,"endTime":2057.829,"body":"the details of what the work is."},{"startTime":2057.829,"endTime":2057.919,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2058.399,"endTime":2061.459,"body":", and then you add in those external"},{"startTime":2058.399,"endTime":2061.459,"body":"influences that as needed."},{"startTime":2061.459,"endTime":2062.739,"body":"Right , so I agree."},{"startTime":2062.739,"endTime":2062.979,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2063.159,"endTime":2064.119,"body":"It could be the same audience."},{"startTime":2064.539,"endTime":2069.849,"body":"The the sprint planning process in SAFe"},{"startTime":2064.539,"endTime":2069.849,"body":"is a little bit different when it comes"},{"startTime":2069.849,"endTime":2073.529,"body":"to big room planning where you have"},{"startTime":2069.849,"endTime":2073.529,"body":"multiple teams doing things and then they"},{"startTime":2073.529,"endTime":2077.399,"body":"synchronize and they go back again into"},{"startTime":2073.529,"endTime":2077.399,"body":"their own breakouts and things like that."},{"startTime":2077.429,"endTime":2077.579,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2078.029,"endTime":2081.809,"body":"But ultimately the attendees"},{"startTime":2078.029,"endTime":2081.809,"body":"are largely the same."},{"startTime":2081.869,"endTime":2082.049,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2082.299,"endTime":2085.904,"body":"have you ever done backlog"},{"startTime":2082.299,"endTime":2085.904,"body":"refinements where only part of the"},{"startTime":2085.904,"endTime":2089.114,"body":"developer's like only a developer"},{"startTime":2085.904,"endTime":2089.114,"body":"or two or three or whatever?"},{"startTime":2089.114,"endTime":2089.714,"body":"Like, Yeah."},{"startTime":2090.164,"endTime":2093.814,"body":"I don't know if it's, I don't know if it's"},{"startTime":2090.164,"endTime":2093.814,"body":"like, You just throw the invite out to"},{"startTime":2093.814,"endTime":2098.164,"body":"everyone and mark everyone as optional or"},{"startTime":2093.814,"endTime":2098.164,"body":"just pick one or two people per week on"},{"startTime":2098.164,"endTime":2100.084,"body":"rotation or just, just a senior people?"},{"startTime":2100.084,"endTime":2104.114,"body":"I, I, I don't, I've never come up"},{"startTime":2100.084,"endTime":2104.114,"body":"with a good Hey, this is a system"},{"startTime":2104.114,"endTime":2107.294,"body":"we're using where everyone doesn't"},{"startTime":2104.114,"endTime":2107.294,"body":"feel, I like the way I feel."},{"startTime":2107.294,"endTime":2110.954,"body":"Tobacco requirement says you can throw"},{"startTime":2107.294,"endTime":2110.954,"body":"everyone on as optional, but people feel"},{"startTime":2110.954,"endTime":2114.194,"body":"like if they don't show up to the back"},{"startTime":2110.954,"endTime":2114.194,"body":"law refinement, they're gonna be left out."},{"startTime":2114.694,"endTime":2117.514,"body":"Having either having a say in the work"},{"startTime":2114.694,"endTime":2117.514,"body":"or understanding what's happening by"},{"startTime":2117.514,"endTime":2120.994,"body":"the time sprint planning rolls up,"},{"startTime":2117.514,"endTime":2120.994,"body":"because at sprint planning time, we're"},{"startTime":2120.994,"endTime":2125.754,"body":"looking at items that potentially"},{"startTime":2120.994,"endTime":2125.754,"body":"half the team has already looked at,"},{"startTime":2125.844,"endTime":2129.084,"body":"already potentially speced out the"},{"startTime":2125.844,"endTime":2129.084,"body":"acceptance criteria already understand."},{"startTime":2129.084,"endTime":2133.314,"body":"So yeah, it'll put your developers"},{"startTime":2129.084,"endTime":2133.314,"body":"in a spot where, let, let's say,"},{"startTime":2133.314,"endTime":2134.604,"body":"let's say you have a five person."},{"startTime":2135.104,"endTime":2137.624,"body":"And three people participate in"},{"startTime":2135.104,"endTime":2137.624,"body":"all your backlog refinements."},{"startTime":2137.804,"endTime":2140.864,"body":"But then those other two people show"},{"startTime":2137.804,"endTime":2140.864,"body":"up to your sprint planning and now"},{"startTime":2140.864,"endTime":2142.244,"body":"they're like, Wait, what is this item?"},{"startTime":2142.424,"endTime":2142.634,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2142.664,"endTime":2143.354,"body":"What, what is it?"},{"startTime":2143.354,"endTime":2144.584,"body":"So they're seeing it for the first time."},{"startTime":2144.734,"endTime":2149.474,"body":"So like on one hand I see a"},{"startTime":2144.734,"endTime":2149.474,"body":"reason to say, Hey, backlog"},{"startTime":2149.479,"endTime":2150.754,"body":"refinements you don't wanna show up."},{"startTime":2151.069,"endTime":2151.489,"body":"That's fine."},{"startTime":2151.489,"endTime":2152.029,"body":"No problem."},{"startTime":2152.329,"endTime":2156.709,"body":"Like we'll have another shot to"},{"startTime":2152.329,"endTime":2156.709,"body":"show up at Sprint Planning review."},{"startTime":2156.769,"endTime":2157.879,"body":"Re-review."},{"startTime":2158.059,"endTime":2160.569,"body":"I'm trying not to say Rereview re-review."},{"startTime":2161.069,"endTime":2161.779,"body":"re review."},{"startTime":2161.819,"endTime":2163.649,"body":"Yeah, Review again."},{"startTime":2164.149,"endTime":2165.709,"body":"what, what we did for planning cuz."},{"startTime":2165.919,"endTime":2168.799,"body":"Cause we'll likely we have the"},{"startTime":2165.919,"endTime":2168.799,"body":"business description written out."},{"startTime":2169.039,"endTime":2172.169,"body":"The exception Criter criteria"},{"startTime":2169.039,"endTime":2172.169,"body":"may be written out , maybe the"},{"startTime":2172.169,"endTime":2175.079,"body":"developers have kind of specked"},{"startTime":2172.169,"endTime":2175.079,"body":"out some subtasks based off of how."},{"startTime":2175.534,"endTime":2178.474,"body":"The high level might think they wanna"},{"startTime":2175.534,"endTime":2178.474,"body":"do, Maybe they sketched some stuff,"},{"startTime":2178.524,"endTime":2179.994,"body":"a whiteboard diagram or whatever."},{"startTime":2179.994,"endTime":2183.074,"body":"I mean, took a picture of it and"},{"startTime":2179.994,"endTime":2183.074,"body":"then the two developers who weren't"},{"startTime":2183.074,"endTime":2186.104,"body":"in any of those sessions will come"},{"startTime":2183.074,"endTime":2186.104,"body":"in and say, Well, I don't, this is"},{"startTime":2186.104,"endTime":2187.364,"body":"not the best way to do this, maybe."},{"startTime":2187.364,"endTime":2188.124,"body":"We'll Yeah."},{"startTime":2188.129,"endTime":2190.374,"body":"I don't know if, I don't"},{"startTime":2188.129,"endTime":2190.374,"body":"know if that's even worth."},{"startTime":2190.804,"endTime":2192.004,"body":"Bringing up is a concern."},{"startTime":2192.064,"endTime":2193.624,"body":"I think that's all normal."},{"startTime":2193.624,"endTime":2197.164,"body":"Part of the normal, like I think"},{"startTime":2193.624,"endTime":2197.164,"body":"it's, it's horses of courses."},{"startTime":2197.164,"endTime":2198.394,"body":"Teams have to figure that out."},{"startTime":2198.664,"endTime":2201.574,"body":"Some teams rotate who goes"},{"startTime":2198.664,"endTime":2201.574,"body":"to background refinement?"},{"startTime":2201.574,"endTime":2203.894,"body":"Two or three people"},{"startTime":2201.574,"endTime":2203.894,"body":"that go and they rotate."},{"startTime":2203.954,"endTime":2204.104,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2204.194,"endTime":2206.344,"body":"Some teams say, Well,"},{"startTime":2204.194,"endTime":2206.344,"body":"the tech lead, that's it."},{"startTime":2206.674,"endTime":2207.844,"body":"We don't need anybody else."},{"startTime":2207.844,"endTime":2208.204,"body":"I've seen that."},{"startTime":2208.234,"endTime":2210.484,"body":"You know, and, and to your point, yeah."},{"startTime":2210.484,"endTime":2213.004,"body":"The team is at a disadvantage"},{"startTime":2210.484,"endTime":2213.004,"body":"when it comes to sprint planning."},{"startTime":2213.064,"endTime":2215.764,"body":"They end up essentially"},{"startTime":2213.064,"endTime":2215.764,"body":"repeating things, right?"},{"startTime":2215.764,"endTime":2219.374,"body":"So they're basically not as efficient"},{"startTime":2215.764,"endTime":2219.374,"body":"cuz you, you're repeating things for"},{"startTime":2219.374,"endTime":2222.194,"body":"the people that weren't there, so you"},{"startTime":2219.374,"endTime":2222.194,"body":"may as well get everybody in, right?"},{"startTime":2222.264,"endTime":2226.254,"body":"Yeah , so yeah, I think good practice"},{"startTime":2222.264,"endTime":2226.254,"body":"is to get everybody in and get through"},{"startTime":2226.254,"endTime":2229.884,"body":"it as expeditiously as possible,"},{"startTime":2226.254,"endTime":2229.884,"body":"rather than repeat the thing."},{"startTime":2230.384,"endTime":2230.594,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2231.094,"endTime":2232.624,"body":"Well that's that's backlog refinement."},{"startTime":2232.624,"endTime":2235.584,"body":"I mean, we just went into more detail"},{"startTime":2232.624,"endTime":2235.584,"body":"than the scrum guy does and backlog."},{"startTime":2235.584,"endTime":2235.974,"body":"Refinement."},{"startTime":2235.979,"endTime":2236.754,"body":"We did, Yeah."},{"startTime":2236.754,"endTime":2237.744,"body":"It was still pretty high level."},{"startTime":2237.744,"endTime":2240.444,"body":"It's like, whatever you're do in sprint"},{"startTime":2237.744,"endTime":2240.444,"body":"planning, you're basically gonna do a"},{"startTime":2240.444,"endTime":2241.974,"body":"very similar thing in backlog, refinement"},{"startTime":2242.274,"endTime":2244.934,"body":"so we reviewed each of the Scrum"},{"startTime":2242.274,"endTime":2244.934,"body":"events , we kind of talked about"},{"startTime":2244.939,"endTime":2248.374,"body":"stakeholders in each of them, who, who"},{"startTime":2244.939,"endTime":2248.374,"body":"should be there, Some of them we talked"},{"startTime":2248.374,"endTime":2250.124,"body":"about who shouldn't be there, and."},{"startTime":2250.624,"endTime":2250.894,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2250.944,"endTime":2253.104,"body":"Any closing thoughts, final thoughts?"},{"startTime":2253.294,"endTime":2256.854,"body":"Let us know if you come across specific"},{"startTime":2253.294,"endTime":2256.854,"body":"challenges or share your experiences"},{"startTime":2256.854,"endTime":2258.369,"body":"with us in the comments below."},{"startTime":2258.435,"endTime":2261.045,"body":"And don't forget to like and subscribe."},{"startTime":2261.345,"endTime":2263.175,"body":"Share your stakeholders"},{"startTime":2261.345,"endTime":2263.175,"body":"in the comments below."}]}