{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.049,"endTime":1.609,"body":"Alright, Om, you're hired."},{"startTime":1.659,"endTime":4.924,"body":"you are my product manager"},{"startTime":1.659,"endTime":4.924,"body":"and, I, I bless you."},{"startTime":5.299,"endTime":6.889,"body":"You're in charge of my new product."},{"startTime":6.95,"endTime":7.94,"body":"Go figure it out."},{"startTime":8.089,"endTime":8.269,"body":"Woohoo."},{"startTime":8.929,"endTime":9.799,"body":"I am hired."},{"startTime":9.799,"endTime":10.7,"body":"I'm so happy."},{"startTime":10.77,"endTime":12.624,"body":", would you gimme some"},{"startTime":10.77,"endTime":12.624,"body":"money to, to do this with?"},{"startTime":12.714,"endTime":13.075,"body":"No, Sorry."},{"startTime":13.08,"endTime":13.525,"body":"There's no money."},{"startTime":13.525,"endTime":13.915,"body":"No money."},{"startTime":13.945,"endTime":14.244,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":14.249,"endTime":14.879,"body":"I feel good."},{"startTime":14.879,"endTime":17.7,"body":"I've just been promoted"},{"startTime":14.879,"endTime":17.7,"body":"as a product person."},{"startTime":17.729,"endTime":18.659,"body":"Yay."},{"startTime":18.989,"endTime":23.139,"body":"The first thing I do before I"},{"startTime":18.989,"endTime":23.139,"body":"come back, , celebrating is to"},{"startTime":23.139,"endTime":26.909,"body":"sit there and scratch my head and"},{"startTime":23.139,"endTime":26.909,"body":"say, How do I go about doing this?"},{"startTime":26.909,"endTime":26.969,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":26.969,"endTime":27.149,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":27.149,"endTime":27.749,"body":"What does that mean?"},{"startTime":27.749,"endTime":28.47,"body":"Yeah, Yeah."},{"startTime":28.859,"endTime":31.199,"body":"I feel good, but I'm also confused."},{"startTime":31.229,"endTime":32.099,"body":"I'm nervous."},{"startTime":32.099,"endTime":32.849,"body":"I don't know what to do."},{"startTime":32.939,"endTime":35.099,"body":"That's what this podcast is all about."},{"startTime":35.6,"endTime":40.18,"body":"So, a new product person, you, you've"},{"startTime":35.6,"endTime":40.18,"body":"been given authority, you've been"},{"startTime":40.18,"endTime":42.67,"body":"given the funds to do something with."},{"startTime":43.17,"endTime":45.42,"body":"I say the first thing I"},{"startTime":43.17,"endTime":45.42,"body":"would do is to go figure."},{"startTime":45.92,"endTime":47.15,"body":", why are we doing this?"},{"startTime":47.155,"endTime":51.034,"body":"Is whatever I'm being asked,"},{"startTime":47.155,"endTime":51.034,"body":"does that align with the"},{"startTime":51.039,"endTime":53.125,"body":"organizational strategy, the vision?"},{"startTime":53.125,"endTime":54.97,"body":"Is it taking us down that path?"},{"startTime":55.03,"endTime":58.33,"body":"It may or may not, You may not"},{"startTime":55.03,"endTime":58.33,"body":"even have a sway in this, right?"},{"startTime":58.45,"endTime":61.93,"body":"Because you've just been told to"},{"startTime":58.45,"endTime":61.93,"body":"do this, you haven't been told,"},{"startTime":61.935,"endTime":63.7,"body":"go figure out if this is viable."},{"startTime":63.73,"endTime":63.79,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":64.27,"endTime":67.11,"body":"So that's the next thing"},{"startTime":64.27,"endTime":67.11,"body":"is what's being asked."},{"startTime":67.11,"endTime":68.79,"body":"Feasible, right?"},{"startTime":68.82,"endTime":70.68,"body":"You have the money, but is it feasible?"},{"startTime":70.735,"endTime":75.024,"body":"Because maybe you are asked to build"},{"startTime":70.735,"endTime":75.024,"body":"something that is technologically"},{"startTime":75.024,"endTime":77.455,"body":"difficult it's been done for"},{"startTime":75.024,"endTime":77.455,"body":"the first time, et cetera."},{"startTime":77.955,"endTime":81.825,"body":"So kind of understand that and then"},{"startTime":77.955,"endTime":81.825,"body":"look around you and look to the left"},{"startTime":81.825,"endTime":85.745,"body":"and right and go, me and who's army,"},{"startTime":81.825,"endTime":85.745,"body":"How are we gonna build this stuff?"},{"startTime":85.775,"endTime":85.925,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":86.135,"endTime":91.665,"body":", so once you figured out the, what, the"},{"startTime":86.135,"endTime":91.665,"body":"vision of it, try and break that down"},{"startTime":91.665,"endTime":94.145,"body":"into, , What can I actually work on?"},{"startTime":94.505,"endTime":96.305,"body":"Not me personally, but a team."},{"startTime":96.455,"endTime":97.445,"body":"Oh, I need a team now."},{"startTime":97.445,"endTime":98.225,"body":"Right, Right."},{"startTime":98.225,"endTime":98.405,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":98.435,"endTime":101.855,"body":"So I was gonna say, let's, let's slow"},{"startTime":98.435,"endTime":101.855,"body":"down, let's slow down your pace here."},{"startTime":101.875,"endTime":102.635,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":102.64,"endTime":106.535,"body":"And go back to your first question,"},{"startTime":102.64,"endTime":106.535,"body":"which I think was the right direction,"},{"startTime":106.955,"endTime":112.365,"body":"which is to ask why, why why, why"},{"startTime":106.955,"endTime":112.365,"body":"are we building a new product?"},{"startTime":112.515,"endTime":115.755,"body":"Why am I the product owner slash manager?"},{"startTime":115.965,"endTime":119.045,"body":"We we'll just use product manager"},{"startTime":115.965,"endTime":119.045,"body":"what I'm trying to say is that"},{"startTime":119.195,"endTime":122.405,"body":"you've been empowered as the"},{"startTime":119.195,"endTime":122.405,"body":"product person, the individual in"},{"startTime":122.405,"endTime":124.755,"body":"charge of product for this product."},{"startTime":124.76,"endTime":124.905,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":124.905,"endTime":127.005,"body":"Am I also gonna assume that"},{"startTime":124.905,"endTime":127.005,"body":"we're not scaling, we don't"},{"startTime":127.005,"endTime":128.295,"body":"have multiple product people."},{"startTime":128.3,"endTime":128.535,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":128.565,"endTime":129.015,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":129.02,"endTime":129.135,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":129.225,"endTime":132.085,"body":"So, The businesses come to"},{"startTime":129.225,"endTime":132.085,"body":"you and say, Okay, hey, great."},{"startTime":132.125,"endTime":135.785,"body":", we want to do this product and um,"},{"startTime":132.125,"endTime":135.785,"body":"we think there's a market for it."},{"startTime":135.865,"endTime":136.975,"body":"go do it."},{"startTime":137.475,"endTime":137.745,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":137.785,"endTime":141.3,"body":", and I've seen this happen with people"},{"startTime":137.785,"endTime":141.3,"body":"that come from all around the business."},{"startTime":141.305,"endTime":143.43,"body":"I've seen this happen with"},{"startTime":141.305,"endTime":143.43,"body":"people that come from qa."},{"startTime":143.85,"endTime":146.76,"body":"Uh, believe it or not, I've seen this"},{"startTime":143.85,"endTime":146.76,"body":"happen when people come from support."},{"startTime":146.88,"endTime":149.18,"body":"I've seen it a lot of times with I"},{"startTime":146.88,"endTime":149.18,"body":"can't think of what they're called"},{"startTime":149.185,"endTime":152.555,"body":"um, project, like project managers."},{"startTime":152.555,"endTime":154.775,"body":"Kind of, kind of, I've"},{"startTime":152.555,"endTime":154.775,"body":"seen it with that too."},{"startTime":155.025,"endTime":158.255,"body":"basically people have somehow otherwise"},{"startTime":155.025,"endTime":158.255,"body":"represent the customer anyway."},{"startTime":158.465,"endTime":158.865,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":158.95,"endTime":161.585,"body":"getting tapped to saying, Well,"},{"startTime":158.95,"endTime":161.585,"body":"now you are the product manager."},{"startTime":161.885,"endTime":165.515,"body":"You know, Hey, we're gonna take this"},{"startTime":161.885,"endTime":165.515,"body":"subset of customers that you are"},{"startTime":165.515,"endTime":170.285,"body":"already familiar with or this business"},{"startTime":165.515,"endTime":170.285,"body":"domain that you already have expertise"},{"startTime":170.285,"endTime":174.625,"body":"in, and now you're gonna go learn"},{"startTime":170.285,"endTime":174.625,"body":"the skillset of product management."},{"startTime":174.685,"endTime":176.265,"body":"And here you go."},{"startTime":176.595,"endTime":178.815,"body":"That, that's, that's kind of like,"},{"startTime":176.595,"endTime":178.815,"body":"I, I kind of went all over the"},{"startTime":178.815,"endTime":183.105,"body":"place, but I, I've seen people from"},{"startTime":178.815,"endTime":183.105,"body":"many, many different domains, right?"},{"startTime":183.605,"endTime":187.155,"body":"But what they all had in common is"},{"startTime":183.605,"endTime":187.155,"body":"they knew the business domain Right."},{"startTime":187.155,"endTime":189.355,"body":"But they didn't know the role."},{"startTime":189.36,"endTime":189.835,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":189.835,"endTime":189.995,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":190.0,"endTime":191.515,"body":"They didn't know what am I supposed to do."},{"startTime":191.635,"endTime":192.035,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":192.145,"endTime":194.165,"body":"So yeah, I think that's"},{"startTime":192.145,"endTime":194.165,"body":"an important point."},{"startTime":194.665,"endTime":198.715,"body":"Just because you've just been put"},{"startTime":194.665,"endTime":198.715,"body":"in this role doesn't mean you have,"},{"startTime":199.005,"endTime":202.155,"body":"what it takes to succeed , in terms"},{"startTime":199.005,"endTime":202.155,"body":"of the training that's missing there."},{"startTime":202.155,"endTime":202.455,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":202.825,"endTime":203.665,"body":", so that's the other thing."},{"startTime":203.665,"endTime":204.655,"body":"I you're right."},{"startTime":204.745,"endTime":207.805,"body":"That's, that's one thing that's"},{"startTime":204.745,"endTime":207.805,"body":"key here before you go ahead and do"},{"startTime":207.805,"endTime":209.985,"body":"something is, do I know how to do this?"},{"startTime":210.265,"endTime":210.585,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":210.665,"endTime":212.265,"body":", And if you don't, what do you do?"},{"startTime":212.295,"endTime":214.415,"body":"You have some choices here, you."},{"startTime":214.915,"endTime":220.865,"body":"Get training, you could buy some"},{"startTime":214.915,"endTime":220.865,"body":"consulting expertise in, somebody comes"},{"startTime":220.865,"endTime":222.965,"body":"in and, and shows you how to do this."},{"startTime":222.965,"endTime":223.055,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":223.355,"endTime":225.125,"body":", or you could just muddle through."},{"startTime":225.155,"endTime":226.025,"body":"I've seen that too."},{"startTime":226.025,"endTime":226.295,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":226.295,"endTime":229.135,"body":"People just muddle through and say,"},{"startTime":226.295,"endTime":229.135,"body":"Well try and see because there's"},{"startTime":229.14,"endTime":230.845,"body":"no training money available."},{"startTime":231.345,"endTime":232.785,"body":"That's the worst of all the worlds."},{"startTime":232.785,"endTime":233.735,"body":"But , Oh boy."},{"startTime":233.765,"endTime":236.596,"body":"Uh, like you just stumble on a whole"},{"startTime":233.765,"endTime":236.596,"body":"different podcast that we're probably not"},{"startTime":236.601,"endTime":239.125,"body":"gonna go down the road of on this podcast"},{"startTime":239.175,"endTime":240.765,"body":"but, To focus back on what"},{"startTime":239.175,"endTime":240.765,"body":"we're talking about now."},{"startTime":240.765,"endTime":245.325,"body":"We're talking about you've been tapped as"},{"startTime":240.765,"endTime":245.325,"body":"the, if you've read the Working Backwards"},{"startTime":245.325,"endTime":248.955,"body":"Amazon book, like they, the concept"},{"startTime":245.325,"endTime":248.955,"body":"that when they launch products, when"},{"startTime":248.955,"endTime":251.535,"body":"they launch initiatives, well call 'em"},{"startTime":248.955,"endTime":251.535,"body":"initiatives cause they might not even be"},{"startTime":251.535,"endTime":253.185,"body":"products when they launch initiatives."},{"startTime":253.185,"endTime":257.925,"body":"They, they pick a leader and they say,"},{"startTime":253.185,"endTime":257.925,"body":"Okay, you are now, Om,, you are now the"},{"startTime":258.225,"endTime":261.675,"body":"person in charge of whatever doubling our."},{"startTime":262.175,"endTime":267.445,"body":"Revenue that comes from x, y, z area"},{"startTime":262.175,"endTime":267.445,"body":"of the website or whatever, right?"},{"startTime":267.445,"endTime":271.285,"body":"And like, you'll go off and you'll build"},{"startTime":267.445,"endTime":271.285,"body":"a team and you'll figure out you'll"},{"startTime":271.285,"endTime":274.705,"body":"do experiments and you'll basically"},{"startTime":271.285,"endTime":274.705,"body":"build products and features that lend"},{"startTime":274.705,"endTime":279.465,"body":"themselves to your product goal, which"},{"startTime":274.705,"endTime":279.465,"body":"is the, the directive that you were"},{"startTime":279.465,"endTime":283.645,"body":"given and basically weighs heavily"},{"startTime":279.465,"endTime":283.645,"body":"into creating your product goal."},{"startTime":283.645,"endTime":285.435,"body":"Where, where you started it on two things."},{"startTime":285.435,"endTime":287.965,"body":"You started with I need"},{"startTime":285.435,"endTime":287.965,"body":"to develop the why."},{"startTime":288.325,"endTime":288.625,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":288.875,"endTime":293.37,"body":"I want to be able to clearly"},{"startTime":288.875,"endTime":293.37,"body":"communicate why to my team members"},{"startTime":293.37,"endTime":295.65,"body":"and everybody, everybody in the"},{"startTime":293.37,"endTime":295.65,"body":"organization, everyone that follows me."},{"startTime":295.86,"endTime":301.28,"body":"If leadership has not articulated"},{"startTime":295.86,"endTime":301.28,"body":"the why clearly, like I will work"},{"startTime":301.28,"endTime":306.08,"body":"with them to continue articulating it"},{"startTime":301.28,"endTime":306.08,"body":"until I can repeat the vision, right?"},{"startTime":306.08,"endTime":308.18,"body":"And, and, and paint the"},{"startTime":306.08,"endTime":308.18,"body":"vision for everyone."},{"startTime":308.18,"endTime":312.46,"body":"Because I will try to, to, to"},{"startTime":308.18,"endTime":312.46,"body":"lay it out in every conversation."},{"startTime":312.46,"endTime":315.7,"body":"And everyone that I talk to about"},{"startTime":312.46,"endTime":315.7,"body":"the, like the elevator pitch of my."},{"startTime":316.2,"endTime":319.89,"body":"I will try to spread news of, of the why."},{"startTime":319.89,"endTime":322.46,"body":"You know, I guess"},{"startTime":319.89,"endTime":322.46,"body":"evangelizes the word, right?"},{"startTime":322.49,"endTime":322.94,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":323.0,"endTime":323.33,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":323.33,"endTime":326.07,"body":"Being a missionary, not a mercenary,"},{"startTime":323.33,"endTime":326.07,"body":"rather, that, that kind of thinking."},{"startTime":326.07,"endTime":326.2,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":326.445,"endTime":330.275,"body":".  And the other part is, , the"},{"startTime":326.445,"endTime":330.275,"body":"why should directly inform"},{"startTime":330.375,"endTime":333.125,"body":"your, inform your product goal."},{"startTime":333.305,"endTime":336.605,"body":"So you wanna start with the product goal"},{"startTime":333.305,"endTime":336.605,"body":"up here, which is basically the same as"},{"startTime":336.605,"endTime":339.895,"body":"the why you wanna start with the product"},{"startTime":336.605,"endTime":339.895,"body":"goal up here so that when you're building"},{"startTime":339.895,"endTime":344.125,"body":"the initial backlog and deciding what your"},{"startTime":339.895,"endTime":344.125,"body":"team is gonna try and not try or stay away"},{"startTime":344.125,"endTime":345.895,"body":"from or delve into or whatever mm-hmm."},{"startTime":346.135,"endTime":348.455,"body":"take ownership of or, or push off."},{"startTime":348.675,"endTime":352.685,"body":"You should be weighing everything"},{"startTime":348.675,"endTime":352.685,"body":"that you decide to work on"},{"startTime":352.805,"endTime":354.725,"body":"against the product goal."},{"startTime":355.225,"endTime":358.095,"body":"So the company has a goal, right?"},{"startTime":358.335,"endTime":359.955,"body":"The company has a vision and a goal."},{"startTime":360.195,"endTime":363.375,"body":"The company probably has many goals,"},{"startTime":360.195,"endTime":363.375,"body":"one of which they hand off to you."},{"startTime":363.765,"endTime":370.395,"body":"You take that it becomes a product,"},{"startTime":363.765,"endTime":370.395,"body":"uh aka a product goal and everything"},{"startTime":370.395,"endTime":373.695,"body":"follows and it gets held up to"},{"startTime":370.395,"endTime":373.695,"body":"the light of that product goal."},{"startTime":373.695,"endTime":376.845,"body":"Yeah, that's, that's, that's the,"},{"startTime":373.695,"endTime":376.845,"body":"the two things that I came away."},{"startTime":376.845,"endTime":381.265,"body":"So, we're at a point now where like Scrum,"},{"startTime":376.845,"endTime":381.265,"body":"guide, kanban,, whatever, like people"},{"startTime":381.265,"endTime":384.025,"body":"normally would think, Oh, like none of"},{"startTime":381.265,"endTime":384.025,"body":"that stuff's even entered a picture yet."},{"startTime":384.055,"endTime":384.385,"body":"No."},{"startTime":384.385,"endTime":386.035,"body":"Like, we might even have a full team."},{"startTime":386.035,"endTime":388.725,"body":"They might, they might have I wanted"},{"startTime":386.035,"endTime":388.725,"body":"to start the discussion from the"},{"startTime":388.73,"endTime":391.485,"body":"perspective of like, Oh, we're gonna"},{"startTime":388.73,"endTime":391.485,"body":"hire a new team for you and you"},{"startTime":391.49,"endTime":394.335,"body":"gotta, the first thing you're doing is"},{"startTime":391.49,"endTime":394.335,"body":"interviewing candidates or whatever."},{"startTime":394.335,"endTime":395.835,"body":"Cause you're standing it"},{"startTime":394.335,"endTime":395.835,"body":"up from the ground up."},{"startTime":395.895,"endTime":396.045,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":396.045,"endTime":400.095,"body":"But, but you might inherit a team"},{"startTime":396.045,"endTime":400.095,"body":"who maybe just end of life another"},{"startTime":400.095,"endTime":403.345,"body":"product, or they might split a team"},{"startTime":400.095,"endTime":403.345,"body":"in half they've been slowly growing"},{"startTime":403.345,"endTime":404.215,"body":"a team over time or whatever."},{"startTime":404.245,"endTime":405.415,"body":"Like, it doesn't really matter."},{"startTime":405.585,"endTime":408.435,"body":"The first set of activities"},{"startTime":405.585,"endTime":408.435,"body":"that you're gonna engage."},{"startTime":408.935,"endTime":412.675,"body":"is all of this stuff"},{"startTime":408.935,"endTime":412.675,"body":"that, that, that I like."},{"startTime":412.675,"endTime":415.165,"body":"I think of some organizations"},{"startTime":412.675,"endTime":415.165,"body":"I've been in, they're like,"},{"startTime":415.225,"endTime":416.605,"body":"That's not development work."},{"startTime":416.965,"endTime":418.225,"body":"That's a waste of time."},{"startTime":418.725,"endTime":420.765,"body":"Oh, that's just a bunch of meetings"},{"startTime":418.725,"endTime":420.765,"body":"that, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":420.915,"endTime":421.305,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":421.455,"endTime":424.275,"body":"A lot of conversations like that"},{"startTime":421.455,"endTime":424.275,"body":"is like, well, it's not because"},{"startTime":424.275,"endTime":427.785,"body":"we're like, when we were building"},{"startTime":424.275,"endTime":427.785,"body":"the, when we're at the ground floor"},{"startTime":427.785,"endTime":429.615,"body":"of the product, nothing exists."},{"startTime":430.035,"endTime":431.895,"body":"No code, zero code is written."},{"startTime":432.395,"endTime":436.325,"body":"All this stuff's important"},{"startTime":432.395,"endTime":436.325,"body":"to hammer out first, I'd say."},{"startTime":436.325,"endTime":436.625,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":436.745,"endTime":437.705,"body":"I, I couldn't agree more."},{"startTime":437.705,"endTime":443.015,"body":"I'd say it's, it's critical because"},{"startTime":437.705,"endTime":443.015,"body":"this is where everybody is going to be."},{"startTime":443.515,"endTime":444.385,"body":"anchor to Right."},{"startTime":444.385,"endTime":446.395,"body":"This, this is why we're"},{"startTime":444.385,"endTime":446.395,"body":"building the product."},{"startTime":446.515,"endTime":446.575,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":446.605,"endTime":450.595,"body":"Before we get into even the what,"},{"startTime":446.605,"endTime":450.595,"body":"so understand why, to your point,"},{"startTime":450.595,"endTime":454.255,"body":"understand how it aligns with the bigger"},{"startTime":450.595,"endTime":454.255,"body":"picture, the organizational vision,"},{"startTime":454.645,"endTime":456.445,"body":"and then we can look at the product."},{"startTime":456.445,"endTime":458.375,"body":"So now you're focusing in mm-hmm."},{"startTime":458.455,"endTime":460.315,"body":"to your product, Right?"},{"startTime":460.315,"endTime":463.705,"body":"You've understood the, the periphery,"},{"startTime":460.315,"endTime":463.705,"body":"the scope, bounding, et cetera of"},{"startTime":463.705,"endTime":467.375,"body":"it, how it fits into the other,"},{"startTime":463.705,"endTime":467.375,"body":"products that the organization has,"},{"startTime":467.765,"endTime":469.175,"body":"or initiatives for that matter."},{"startTime":469.675,"endTime":474.625,"body":"So once we start thinking about the"},{"startTime":469.675,"endTime":474.625,"body":"product, what should come out of there"},{"startTime":474.985,"endTime":478.215,"body":"is how how are we going to do this?"},{"startTime":478.215,"endTime":481.875,"body":"And you probably aren't the person"},{"startTime":478.215,"endTime":481.875,"body":"to figure that out necessarily"},{"startTime":481.875,"endTime":483.255,"body":"on a technical level, I'm saying."},{"startTime":483.285,"endTime":483.585,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":484.035,"endTime":487.425,"body":", you're almost like the"},{"startTime":484.035,"endTime":487.425,"body":"conductor of the orchestra."},{"startTime":487.845,"endTime":488.055,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":488.055,"endTime":489.315,"body":"You may not play an instrument."},{"startTime":489.345,"endTime":489.435,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":489.81,"endTime":493.95,"body":". , so you need players in"},{"startTime":489.81,"endTime":493.95,"body":"your, in your orchestra."},{"startTime":493.95,"endTime":494.94,"body":"So you need."},{"startTime":495.44,"endTime":496.73,"body":"A team at this point."},{"startTime":496.88,"endTime":499.31,"body":"If you've been given a team,"},{"startTime":496.88,"endTime":499.31,"body":"are they the right team?"},{"startTime":499.31,"endTime":499.91,"body":"That's the first."},{"startTime":499.91,"endTime":501.17,"body":"Do you have the right players on there?"},{"startTime":501.41,"endTime":501.53,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":501.535,"endTime":504.15,"body":"That's that's where, the"},{"startTime":501.535,"endTime":504.15,"body":"focus should be at this stage."},{"startTime":504.155,"endTime":505.11,"body":"Do they understand?"},{"startTime":505.14,"endTime":510.0,"body":"So that's the, the challenge you have"},{"startTime":505.14,"endTime":510.0,"body":"is if you understand the why and then"},{"startTime":510.0,"endTime":513.62,"body":"what you're building as the product"},{"startTime":510.0,"endTime":513.62,"body":"backlog, do they understand that?"},{"startTime":513.62,"endTime":517.01,"body":"So you've gotta now convey"},{"startTime":513.62,"endTime":517.01,"body":"that vision to them, Right."},{"startTime":517.25,"endTime":519.14,"body":"And not lose anything in the process."},{"startTime":519.51,"endTime":522.71,"body":"Everyone must be united in, at least"},{"startTime":519.51,"endTime":522.71,"body":"the vision where we're trying to get to."},{"startTime":522.83,"endTime":522.92,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":523.42,"endTime":527.455,"body":"there's a bunch of roads we could go"},{"startTime":523.42,"endTime":527.455,"body":"down, but like you, you nothing exists on."},{"startTime":527.955,"endTime":528.255,"body":", Right?"},{"startTime":528.285,"endTime":529.335,"body":"Nothing exists yet."},{"startTime":529.455,"endTime":529.545,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":529.785,"endTime":530.775,"body":"Except conceptually."},{"startTime":530.775,"endTime":534.285,"body":"So the idea is like, there"},{"startTime":530.775,"endTime":534.285,"body":"are some things we need to do."},{"startTime":534.585,"endTime":535.755,"body":"I'm pulling outta the air."},{"startTime":535.815,"endTime":537.725,"body":"Hey I'm just gonna"},{"startTime":535.815,"endTime":537.725,"body":"assume we're using Scrum."},{"startTime":537.935,"endTime":539.075,"body":"We're a development team."},{"startTime":539.575,"endTime":540.895,"body":"I'm gonna assume we're using Scrum."},{"startTime":541.075,"endTime":542.335,"body":"I'm just gonna assume it, right?"},{"startTime":542.835,"endTime":545.795,"body":"People might be like, Oh,"},{"startTime":542.835,"endTime":545.795,"body":"let's, how can you assume that"},{"startTime":545.795,"endTime":546.695,"body":"blah, blah, blah, whatever."},{"startTime":546.815,"endTime":548.735,"body":"Like honestly, I don't need to use Scrum."},{"startTime":548.735,"endTime":551.315,"body":"I don't, I'm not really interested"},{"startTime":548.735,"endTime":551.315,"body":"in being part of that argument."},{"startTime":551.815,"endTime":555.925,"body":"I'm just short-cutting us to say like,"},{"startTime":551.815,"endTime":555.925,"body":"I'm going to assume just for the purposes"},{"startTime":555.93,"endTime":558.345,"body":"of our discussion we're using Scrum."},{"startTime":558.845,"endTime":562.745,"body":"I, I could go down the road, like if"},{"startTime":558.845,"endTime":562.745,"body":"I was actually doing this myself as a"},{"startTime":562.745,"endTime":566.585,"body":"product manager, I don't need a framework"},{"startTime":562.745,"endTime":566.585,"body":"at all because I, I would say, the"},{"startTime":566.59,"endTime":572.765,"body":"most important thing is I need to know"},{"startTime":566.59,"endTime":572.765,"body":"who the initial users were doing this"},{"startTime":572.915,"endTime":576.175,"body":"product we're creating this product for."},{"startTime":576.265,"endTime":577.345,"body":"I need to know who those users are."},{"startTime":577.345,"endTime":583.625,"body":"So I'm going to go out into the"},{"startTime":577.345,"endTime":583.625,"body":"organization and I'm going to try to cast"},{"startTime":583.625,"endTime":588.755,"body":"as wide a net as possible to say, Hey,"},{"startTime":583.625,"endTime":588.755,"body":"does anybody in the organization have"},{"startTime":588.935,"endTime":595.245,"body":"contacts, like deep contacts in whatever,"},{"startTime":588.935,"endTime":595.245,"body":"x, xyz field, whatever we're doing."},{"startTime":595.245,"endTime":595.455,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":595.505,"endTime":601.015,"body":"I wanna know people who know people in the"},{"startTime":595.505,"endTime":601.015,"body":"pool of users that we're like, I mean, I"},{"startTime":601.015,"endTime":604.735,"body":"would hope that if a company is deciding"},{"startTime":601.015,"endTime":604.735,"body":"that they wanna put money, a significant"},{"startTime":604.735,"endTime":608.045,"body":"amount of money to, to the point where"},{"startTime":604.735,"endTime":608.045,"body":"they're gonna hire a team of developers"},{"startTime":608.045,"endTime":611.165,"body":"and a product manager, et cetera, cetera,"},{"startTime":608.045,"endTime":611.165,"body":"ui, ux, designer, stuff like that."},{"startTime":611.165,"endTime":614.075,"body":"Like they already have a market in mind."},{"startTime":614.575,"endTime":614.725,"body":". Yeah."},{"startTime":614.905,"endTime":618.94,"body":"But, but, , even if they do, movers"},{"startTime":614.905,"endTime":618.94,"body":"and shakers around the organiz."},{"startTime":619.44,"endTime":620.33,"body":"Probably have contacts."},{"startTime":620.36,"endTime":624.5,"body":"Like I wanna leverage those contacts"},{"startTime":620.36,"endTime":624.5,"body":"to get my initial group of users that"},{"startTime":624.5,"endTime":626.47,"body":"I'm gonna be working with regardless."},{"startTime":626.47,"endTime":630.82,"body":"Even if they don't, then I have to"},{"startTime":626.47,"endTime":630.82,"body":"go out onto the internet or whatever,"},{"startTime":630.82,"endTime":632.65,"body":"to conferences, whatever I like."},{"startTime":632.65,"endTime":637.69,"body":"I have to go out and drum up business"},{"startTime":632.65,"endTime":637.69,"body":"like a salesperson doing cold calls."},{"startTime":637.97,"endTime":641.28,"body":"Hey Brian, , this, this, this"},{"startTime":637.97,"endTime":641.28,"body":"market, this segment of the market"},{"startTime":641.28,"endTime":643.05,"body":"doesn't exist, go create it."},{"startTime":643.55,"endTime":646.82,"body":"That's basically, that's"},{"startTime":643.55,"endTime":646.82,"body":"like the hard way to do this."},{"startTime":646.88,"endTime":647.3,"body":"It is."},{"startTime":647.3,"endTime":651.49,"body":"And that's, those are the, the"},{"startTime":647.3,"endTime":651.49,"body":"trendsetters people that are breaking into"},{"startTime":651.49,"endTime":653.38,"body":"the market with a new product, let's say."},{"startTime":653.385,"endTime":653.51,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":653.51,"endTime":653.87,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":654.15,"endTime":655.5,"body":"I think, yeah, I agree with that."},{"startTime":655.5,"endTime":659.21,"body":"I think it's also important to"},{"startTime":655.5,"endTime":659.21,"body":"understand not only users, certainly."},{"startTime":659.71,"endTime":663.01,"body":"How they would use it, What, what"},{"startTime":659.71,"endTime":663.01,"body":"start to formulate, what does"},{"startTime":663.01,"endTime":664.54,"body":"that product lifecycle look like?"},{"startTime":664.61,"endTime":666.83,"body":"Is, is it one years, two years, et cetera?"},{"startTime":666.89,"endTime":669.53,"body":"Because you've now gotta"},{"startTime":666.89,"endTime":669.53,"body":"start delivering stuff soon."},{"startTime":669.56,"endTime":670.37,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":670.375,"endTime":674.27,"body":"Maybe I'm fast forwarding a touch, but if"},{"startTime":670.375,"endTime":674.27,"body":"you don't understand the bigger picture"},{"startTime":674.37,"endTime":678.51,"body":"when, when does this product, it's in"},{"startTime":674.37,"endTime":678.51,"body":"its infancy, but when does it mature"},{"startTime":678.51,"endTime":680.01,"body":"and then what's the tail look like?"},{"startTime":680.01,"endTime":685.5,"body":"If you don't understand that, then I"},{"startTime":680.01,"endTime":685.5,"body":"think you could misappropriate the funds"},{"startTime":685.56,"endTime":687.48,"body":"in terms of the life cycle at least."},{"startTime":687.485,"endTime":687.83,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":688.08,"endTime":691.75,"body":"well, the other thing too is,  this"},{"startTime":688.08,"endTime":691.75,"body":"is the, the Jeffrey Moore crossing"},{"startTime":691.75,"endTime":694.16,"body":"the Chasm book like boiler plate."},{"startTime":694.19,"endTime":699.55,"body":"Like if you are, if you need to find"},{"startTime":694.19,"endTime":699.55,"body":"the users, if you're building a product"},{"startTime":699.85,"endTime":704.24,"body":"and nothing like it exists and you"},{"startTime":699.85,"endTime":704.24,"body":"truly have to create an audience."},{"startTime":704.5,"endTime":708.58,"body":"I'm not gonna say it's easy because"},{"startTime":704.5,"endTime":708.58,"body":"those people may or may not have money."},{"startTime":708.94,"endTime":709.27,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":709.32,"endTime":712.56,"body":"The most difficult situation that"},{"startTime":709.32,"endTime":712.56,"body":"I've been in for what we're talking"},{"startTime":712.565,"endTime":717.09,"body":"about now is when you get into the"},{"startTime":712.565,"endTime":717.09,"body":"situation where your company, if"},{"startTime":717.09,"endTime":721.52,"body":"we're gonna talk about Jeffrey Moore"},{"startTime":717.09,"endTime":721.52,"body":"crossing a chasm, your company is over"},{"startTime":721.52,"endTime":723.65,"body":"here dealing with the late adopters."},{"startTime":723.68,"endTime":724.01,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":724.51,"endTime":725.77,"body":"And then they wanna launch."},{"startTime":726.22,"endTime":730.21,"body":"So, And then, and then they, they,"},{"startTime":726.22,"endTime":730.21,"body":"but the people in your organization"},{"startTime":730.21,"endTime":735.46,"body":"who are kind of future facing, looking"},{"startTime":730.21,"endTime":735.46,"body":"forward, like they see what's happening"},{"startTime":735.52,"endTime":737.23,"body":"at the edge of the market mm-hmm."},{"startTime":737.33,"endTime":741.24,"body":", and they want to catapult themselves"},{"startTime":737.33,"endTime":741.24,"body":"to the edge of the market."},{"startTime":741.57,"endTime":745.71,"body":"So they will launch a product group who"},{"startTime":741.57,"endTime":745.71,"body":"is at the edge of the market, but the"},{"startTime":745.91,"endTime":748.17,"body":"majority of business is the late adopters."},{"startTime":748.35,"endTime":752.88,"body":"So basically you have this very small"},{"startTime":748.35,"endTime":752.88,"body":"business unit that like, honestly,"},{"startTime":752.885,"endTime":755.54,"body":"like this could be a clip all its"},{"startTime":752.885,"endTime":755.54,"body":"own that appeals to some people."},{"startTime":755.54,"endTime":757.82,"body":"Like, there, there are probably"},{"startTime":755.54,"endTime":757.82,"body":"some people watching this that like,"},{"startTime":757.82,"endTime":759.98,"body":"they're like, This is my problem."},{"startTime":760.01,"endTime":760.7,"body":"Tell me about this."},{"startTime":760.86,"endTime":764.1,"body":"the company makes all their"},{"startTime":760.86,"endTime":764.1,"body":"recurring revenue and whatever off"},{"startTime":764.1,"endTime":767.76,"body":"of these late adopters, they want"},{"startTime":764.1,"endTime":767.76,"body":"everything in the software package."},{"startTime":767.765,"endTime":769.86,"body":"They want it all to be"},{"startTime":767.765,"endTime":769.86,"body":"working all the time."},{"startTime":770.11,"endTime":771.52,"body":"They're kind of a adverse at change."},{"startTime":771.52,"endTime":775.12,"body":"They don't like their UI changing, they"},{"startTime":771.52,"endTime":775.12,"body":"don't like new things popping in and out."},{"startTime":775.12,"endTime":775.27,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":775.27,"endTime":780.67,"body":"But the company also says, Okay, well I"},{"startTime":775.27,"endTime":780.67,"body":"want a group working on the product that's"},{"startTime":780.88,"endTime":786.37,"body":"way ahead, on the edge of the market"},{"startTime":780.88,"endTime":786.37,"body":"and the people that they're querying and"},{"startTime":786.37,"endTime":789.83,"body":"the people they're working with, and the"},{"startTime":786.37,"endTime":789.83,"body":"people that they're, running surveys with"},{"startTime":789.835,"endTime":792.77,"body":"and the people, they're, they're running"},{"startTime":789.835,"endTime":792.77,"body":"beta tests and stuff with their software."},{"startTime":793.27,"endTime":797.47,"body":"They're not this, this pool of people that"},{"startTime":793.27,"endTime":797.47,"body":"are normal users of their applications."},{"startTime":797.5,"endTime":797.77,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":797.89,"endTime":800.88,"body":"They're wildly different in the market."},{"startTime":801.3,"endTime":802.68,"body":"And it might be the same market."},{"startTime":802.68,"endTime":806.25,"body":"It might the market might be a big, big,"},{"startTime":802.68,"endTime":806.25,"body":"big like operating systems, for example,"},{"startTime":806.25,"endTime":809.57,"body":"like operating systems is a giant market."},{"startTime":810.07,"endTime":814.42,"body":"A giant market like a, a, a wealth"},{"startTime":810.07,"endTime":814.42,"body":"of people using Microsoft and, and,"},{"startTime":814.45,"endTime":819.68,"body":"and iOS desktop on, on laptops and"},{"startTime":814.45,"endTime":819.68,"body":"stuff like that, versus like, the"},{"startTime":819.68,"endTime":821.39,"body":"people over here are using Linux."},{"startTime":821.72,"endTime":822.11,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":822.17,"endTime":826.37,"body":"You know, versus the people"},{"startTime":822.17,"endTime":826.37,"body":"that are like truly power users."},{"startTime":826.56,"endTime":830.14,"body":"I think of like uh, the, all the people"},{"startTime":826.56,"endTime":830.14,"body":"working in the field of like, in, in"},{"startTime":830.21,"endTime":834.07,"body":"network security and um network uh,"},{"startTime":830.21,"endTime":834.07,"body":"penetration testing and stuff like that."},{"startTime":834.28,"endTime":835.18,"body":"Those people mm-hmm."},{"startTime":835.51,"endTime":839.76,"body":"The suite of stuff they need from their"},{"startTime":835.51,"endTime":839.76,"body":"operating system is just different."},{"startTime":840.21,"endTime":841.38,"body":"They're just different markets."},{"startTime":841.38,"endTime":844.72,"body":"You can say, Well, oh, it's"},{"startTime":841.38,"endTime":844.72,"body":"just os it's just os market."},{"startTime":844.8,"endTime":845.58,"body":"It's just os."},{"startTime":845.58,"endTime":848.49,"body":"But no, that's, I mean,"},{"startTime":845.58,"endTime":848.49,"body":"it's a giant, giant market."},{"startTime":848.85,"endTime":850.34,"body":"We just, we just came into this."},{"startTime":850.84,"endTime":855.7,"body":"This space where you have the money,"},{"startTime":850.84,"endTime":855.7,"body":"you figured out the the what, and now"},{"startTime":855.7,"endTime":857.59,"body":"you're starting to look at the how."},{"startTime":858.04,"endTime":858.28,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":858.34,"endTime":859.24,"body":"You need a team."},{"startTime":859.29,"endTime":860.83,"body":"It's, it's, it's a given."},{"startTime":860.83,"endTime":861.43,"body":"You need a team."},{"startTime":861.43,"endTime":863.47,"body":"If, if you've been given a"},{"startTime":861.43,"endTime":863.47,"body":"team, are they the right team?"},{"startTime":863.47,"endTime":864.64,"body":"Do they have the skills?"},{"startTime":864.645,"endTime":864.93,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":865.01,"endTime":869.42,"body":", do you yourself have the skills right"},{"startTime":865.01,"endTime":869.42,"body":"for your work as a product person?"},{"startTime":869.42,"endTime":873.47,"body":"Well, that that's I feel that's a whole"},{"startTime":869.42,"endTime":873.47,"body":"discussion that, , I, I don't know if it's"},{"startTime":873.47,"endTime":876.74,"body":"represented here, but like, I'm willing"},{"startTime":873.47,"endTime":876.74,"body":"to entertain it for like five, 10 minutes."},{"startTime":876.79,"endTime":878.62,"body":"Training is a topic that"},{"startTime":876.79,"endTime":878.62,"body":"we're talking about now."},{"startTime":878.65,"endTime":878.83,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":878.89,"endTime":879.01,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":879.01,"endTime":879.25,"body":"Training."},{"startTime":879.68,"endTime":880.72,"body":"Stormy podcast."},{"startTime":880.725,"endTime":881.74,"body":"Actually, now I think about it."},{"startTime":882.07,"endTime":885.6,"body":"If you were like a registered nurse,"},{"startTime":882.07,"endTime":885.6,"body":"for example, like Stormy, like for"},{"startTime":885.6,"endTime":887.9,"body":"her case, I, I invoked her name."},{"startTime":887.9,"endTime":889.58,"body":"So now I gotta tag her"},{"startTime":887.9,"endTime":889.58,"body":"in the, in the video."},{"startTime":889.85,"endTime":892.45,"body":", And you're a registered nurse"},{"startTime":889.85,"endTime":892.45,"body":", and the company says, Okay, I"},{"startTime":892.45,"endTime":893.95,"body":"need a subject matter expert."},{"startTime":893.95,"endTime":896.04,"body":"Let me go find one, pull them in."},{"startTime":896.07,"endTime":903.21,"body":"Now let me teach you, I'm willing to teach"},{"startTime":896.07,"endTime":903.21,"body":"someone who's already a domain expert,"},{"startTime":903.71,"endTime":906.08,"body":"the business domain of product management."},{"startTime":906.085,"endTime":909.38,"body":"Maybe I have, and I've hired"},{"startTime":906.085,"endTime":909.38,"body":"product managers in house."},{"startTime":909.88,"endTime":910.15,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":910.15,"endTime":913.96,"body":"And I'm willing to have my product"},{"startTime":910.15,"endTime":913.96,"body":"managers spend whatever, 25% of their"},{"startTime":913.965,"endTime":915.88,"body":"time, X percent of their time, right."},{"startTime":915.88,"endTime":919.87,"body":"To, to just shadow the other person and"},{"startTime":915.88,"endTime":919.87,"body":"train them and get them up to speed."},{"startTime":920.23,"endTime":922.0,"body":"Maybe I have training"},{"startTime":920.23,"endTime":922.0,"body":"budgets, maybe whatever."},{"startTime":922.5,"endTime":926.42,"body":"A lot of companies are not that well"},{"startTime":922.5,"endTime":926.42,"body":"organized as you know, you know?"},{"startTime":926.43,"endTime":927.18,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":927.27,"endTime":928.95,"body":"In, in reality, in the experience, Yes."},{"startTime":929.45,"endTime":934.35,"body":"That it would be even harder to say, okay,"},{"startTime":929.45,"endTime":934.35,"body":", I am trying to hire for this product"},{"startTime":934.35,"endTime":937.4,"body":"manager position, but I can't find."},{"startTime":937.9,"endTime":939.84,"body":"Maybe because of cuz a"},{"startTime":937.9,"endTime":939.84,"body":"million things, right?"},{"startTime":939.84,"endTime":943.98,"body":"Cuz of my, the type of business I'm in,"},{"startTime":939.84,"endTime":943.98,"body":"the type of experience I'm looking for,"},{"startTime":943.98,"endTime":946.61,"body":"the pay band could potentially be a thing."},{"startTime":946.79,"endTime":949.19,"body":"Like I, I'm willing to train people."},{"startTime":949.22,"endTime":954.11,"body":"I am not willing to purchase a, a product"},{"startTime":949.22,"endTime":954.11,"body":"manager who's already experienced,"},{"startTime":954.11,"endTime":955.16,"body":"they could be in that position."},{"startTime":955.66,"endTime":956.8,"body":"Uh, yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":956.8,"endTime":959.5,"body":"But there's also some other"},{"startTime":956.8,"endTime":959.5,"body":"alternatives here, right?"},{"startTime":959.5,"endTime":963.85,"body":"So maybe you bring in expertise,"},{"startTime":959.5,"endTime":963.85,"body":"teach you about specific aspects."},{"startTime":964.09,"endTime":965.5,"body":"For example, systems thinking."},{"startTime":965.5,"endTime":968.49,"body":"If you're not a sure, if you're not"},{"startTime":965.5,"endTime":968.49,"body":"aware of that take a course on it."},{"startTime":968.495,"endTime":969.42,"body":"Bring somebody in."},{"startTime":969.51,"endTime":972.26,"body":"Bring somebody in that can"},{"startTime":969.51,"endTime":972.26,"body":"talk the team about it."},{"startTime":972.58,"endTime":975.28,"body":", domain driven design is"},{"startTime":972.58,"endTime":975.28,"body":"another example, right?"},{"startTime":975.3,"endTime":975.66,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":975.74,"endTime":979.015,"body":", so people can come in with our"},{"startTime":975.74,"endTime":979.015,"body":"experts and come in and do a,"},{"startTime":979.175,"endTime":980.965,"body":"a, a seminar with your team."},{"startTime":981.325,"endTime":984.475,"body":"So, so that's, that's something"},{"startTime":981.325,"endTime":984.475,"body":"that you should be open to because"},{"startTime":984.975,"endTime":986.475,"body":"you don't know all these things."},{"startTime":986.975,"endTime":989.315,"body":"We're focusing on the"},{"startTime":986.975,"endTime":989.315,"body":"product manager themselves."},{"startTime":989.565,"endTime":992.95,"body":"In my current role and also"},{"startTime":989.565,"endTime":992.95,"body":"previous roles uh, we use Jira."},{"startTime":993.45,"endTime":995.25,"body":"Boy, it's been been a"},{"startTime":993.45,"endTime":995.25,"body":"while since I did that."},{"startTime":995.43,"endTime":1001.47,"body":"Um, we use j uh, and in just make"},{"startTime":995.43,"endTime":1001.47,"body":"a drinking game in J um, I added"},{"startTime":1001.53,"endTime":1003.99,"body":"a component called Capability."},{"startTime":1003.995,"endTime":1004.56,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1005.06,"endTime":1009.76,"body":". And any story that I take on as a"},{"startTime":1005.06,"endTime":1009.76,"body":"product manager that I'm taking on"},{"startTime":1009.765,"endTime":1015.55,"body":"that story for the express purpose"},{"startTime":1009.765,"endTime":1015.55,"body":"of adding the skill, adding learning"},{"startTime":1015.7,"endTime":1018.67,"body":"to my team, I labeled the component."},{"startTime":1019.06,"endTime":1020.38,"body":"As capability."},{"startTime":1020.78,"endTime":1025.074,"body":"So at the end of a sprint, I can"},{"startTime":1020.78,"endTime":1025.074,"body":"say like, X percent of the sprint"},{"startTime":1025.194,"endTime":1028.724,"body":"was spent learning these things."},{"startTime":1028.844,"endTime":1034.584,"body":"So if you have a training budget"},{"startTime":1028.844,"endTime":1034.584,"body":"the buckets that your HR people."},{"startTime":1035.084,"endTime":1038.094,"body":"B play the little game where"},{"startTime":1035.084,"endTime":1038.094,"body":"they pay for things or whatever."},{"startTime":1038.344,"endTime":1042.964,"body":", you definitely should have a training,"},{"startTime":1038.344,"endTime":1042.964,"body":"like I, I call it capability, but you"},{"startTime":1042.964,"endTime":1046.794,"body":"easily could call it training, you"},{"startTime":1042.964,"endTime":1046.794,"body":"could call it enablement, whatever."},{"startTime":1046.799,"endTime":1048.269,"body":"Yeah, enablement up UPS skilling."},{"startTime":1048.299,"endTime":1048.449,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1048.449,"endTime":1051.479,"body":"Maybe there's so many different syms"},{"startTime":1048.449,"endTime":1051.479,"body":"for this, whatever you wanna call it."},{"startTime":1051.479,"endTime":1057.499,"body":"Like, you could directly tie that"},{"startTime":1051.479,"endTime":1057.499,"body":"component in Jira to your training budget."},{"startTime":1057.499,"endTime":1060.799,"body":"So automatically when the sprint"},{"startTime":1057.499,"endTime":1060.799,"body":"ends, you send a report out and it"},{"startTime":1060.969,"endTime":1062.179,"body":"was like, here's all the work items."},{"startTime":1062.179,"endTime":1065.804,"body":"We did this sprint that are in"},{"startTime":1062.179,"endTime":1065.804,"body":"done, here's their components , and"},{"startTime":1065.864,"endTime":1068.114,"body":"whatever the components are, Mr."},{"startTime":1068.234,"endTime":1069.614,"body":"Finance person, Mrs."},{"startTime":1069.914,"endTime":1071.684,"body":"Finance person, whatever"},{"startTime":1069.914,"endTime":1071.684,"body":"that does the budget."},{"startTime":1071.864,"endTime":1071.984,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1072.064,"endTime":1076.149,"body":"Take the percentage of the sprint"},{"startTime":1072.064,"endTime":1076.149,"body":"that this was based on the velocity..."},{"startTime":1076.369,"endTime":1080.494,"body":"There, there are other formulas to do this"},{"startTime":1076.369,"endTime":1080.494,"body":"with, but, take this percentage and apply"},{"startTime":1080.494,"endTime":1085.584,"body":"it to the training budget so at the end"},{"startTime":1080.494,"endTime":1085.584,"body":"of the year, again, we can add up all of"},{"startTime":1085.584,"endTime":1091.754,"body":"the, all of the, , time per sprint that"},{"startTime":1085.584,"endTime":1091.754,"body":"was spent on training activities, Right."},{"startTime":1091.754,"endTime":1093.644,"body":"Capabilities, enablement,"},{"startTime":1091.754,"endTime":1093.644,"body":"whatever you wanna call it."},{"startTime":1093.764,"endTime":1097.154,"body":"You can add it all up and we can"},{"startTime":1093.764,"endTime":1097.154,"body":"get a real dollar figure right."},{"startTime":1097.184,"endTime":1097.874,"body":"To all that stuff."},{"startTime":1098.084,"endTime":1099.074,"body":"So I agree."},{"startTime":1099.074,"endTime":1101.714,"body":"And you know what, that's just"},{"startTime":1099.074,"endTime":1101.714,"body":"a measuring mechanism, Right?"},{"startTime":1101.714,"endTime":1101.834,"body":"Good."},{"startTime":1101.834,"endTime":1106.834,"body":"But at the, at the end of"},{"startTime":1101.834,"endTime":1106.834,"body":"the project  project, Oh."},{"startTime":1106.954,"endTime":1112.994,"body":"If you haven't spent a, a, a certain"},{"startTime":1106.954,"endTime":1112.994,"body":"amount of money, Upskilling people Right."},{"startTime":1113.494,"endTime":1116.164,"body":"Then how do you expect"},{"startTime":1113.494,"endTime":1116.164,"body":"success to come out of that?"},{"startTime":1116.664,"endTime":1118.974,"body":"Because people aren't"},{"startTime":1116.664,"endTime":1118.974,"body":"getting the skills they need."},{"startTime":1119.034,"endTime":1119.244,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1119.484,"endTime":1122.904,"body":"So I think that that should be"},{"startTime":1119.484,"endTime":1122.904,"body":"baked in from the beginning, right?"},{"startTime":1122.904,"endTime":1125.514,"body":"So when you get that money and"},{"startTime":1122.904,"endTime":1125.514,"body":"somebody says, Hey, congrats on"},{"startTime":1125.514,"endTime":1126.894,"body":"your promotion, here's the money."},{"startTime":1126.894,"endTime":1127.644,"body":"Go build something."},{"startTime":1127.674,"endTime":1127.764,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1128.034,"endTime":1131.354,"body":", when you're looking at that, the visioning"},{"startTime":1128.034,"endTime":1131.354,"body":"of all the things that we talked about"},{"startTime":1131.354,"endTime":1136.854,"body":"earlier in the podcast, try and figure"},{"startTime":1131.354,"endTime":1136.854,"body":"out how much upskilling you'll need to"},{"startTime":1136.859,"endTime":1143.054,"body":"do with the team you have and go forth"},{"startTime":1136.859,"endTime":1143.054,"body":"and allocate a portion of your funding"},{"startTime":1143.554,"endTime":1145.444,"body":"to that, because that is critical."},{"startTime":1145.444,"endTime":1147.814,"body":"That's the pillar on which you're"},{"startTime":1145.444,"endTime":1147.814,"body":"trying to build this product, right?"},{"startTime":1147.814,"endTime":1151.164,"body":"And if that's shaky, How can"},{"startTime":1147.814,"endTime":1151.164,"body":"you expect a, a solid product?"},{"startTime":1151.254,"endTime":1151.494,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1151.994,"endTime":1156.044,"body":"And I, and I would say like you can do"},{"startTime":1151.994,"endTime":1156.044,"body":"this in Sprint for your team members."},{"startTime":1156.074,"endTime":1156.134,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1156.164,"endTime":1159.284,"body":"if you're the product manager,"},{"startTime":1156.164,"endTime":1159.284,"body":"you, you have direct control over"},{"startTime":1159.284,"endTime":1164.294,"body":"this because you can choose to take"},{"startTime":1159.284,"endTime":1164.294,"body":"on things to train your team up."},{"startTime":1164.624,"endTime":1165.519,"body":"And,  in doing that."},{"startTime":1165.519,"endTime":1166.749,"body":"You're being a good leader."},{"startTime":1167.019,"endTime":1167.439,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1167.439,"endTime":1167.919,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1168.419,"endTime":1172.969,"body":"If I saw a backlog item to this"},{"startTime":1168.419,"endTime":1172.969,"body":"end, which was basically about"},{"startTime":1173.019,"endTime":1174.399,"body":"training or upskilling people, Right."},{"startTime":1174.699,"endTime":1175.959,"body":"I would think, Right."},{"startTime":1175.959,"endTime":1178.874,"body":"We're on the we're onto"},{"startTime":1175.959,"endTime":1178.874,"body":"something here because there's"},{"startTime":1178.874,"endTime":1180.344,"body":"recognition that there's a gap."},{"startTime":1180.554,"endTime":1180.884,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1180.974,"endTime":1183.554,"body":"And there willingness to"},{"startTime":1180.974,"endTime":1183.554,"body":"basically bridge the gap."},{"startTime":1183.554,"endTime":1184.214,"body":"This is awesome."},{"startTime":1184.314,"endTime":1184.524,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1184.524,"endTime":1187.454,"body":"Well also there's willing, like"},{"startTime":1184.524,"endTime":1187.454,"body":"now that cuz a lot of times"},{"startTime":1187.459,"endTime":1190.964,"body":"like the product manager falls"},{"startTime":1187.459,"endTime":1190.964,"body":"into like the, the, the boss."},{"startTime":1191.279,"endTime":1193.979,"body":"Because especially on teams where"},{"startTime":1191.279,"endTime":1193.979,"body":"the product manager has budget."},{"startTime":1194.219,"endTime":1194.399,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1194.459,"endTime":1197.659,"body":"Like actually has budget, it's like"},{"startTime":1194.459,"endTime":1197.659,"body":"Well the other word for that is sponsor."},{"startTime":1197.659,"endTime":1198.649,"body":"Cause you're paying for it."},{"startTime":1198.649,"endTime":1200.239,"body":"They think the teams right?"},{"startTime":1200.389,"endTime":1201.139,"body":"Cause I don't know."},{"startTime":1201.139,"endTime":1204.559,"body":"Well, I, I think, I think of the"},{"startTime":1201.139,"endTime":1204.559,"body":"places that I've been where, , the"},{"startTime":1204.619,"endTime":1207.079,"body":"entire workforce has been contract."},{"startTime":1207.579,"endTime":1213.629,"body":"So the, the product owner slash manager"},{"startTime":1207.579,"endTime":1213.629,"body":"is the permanent employee and they have"},{"startTime":1213.629,"endTime":1220.159,"body":"budget and then they bring on an entire"},{"startTime":1213.629,"endTime":1220.159,"body":"team of developers slash scrum, masters"},{"startTime":1220.159,"endTime":1225.279,"body":"slash whoever, BA documentation what,"},{"startTime":1220.159,"endTime":1225.279,"body":"whatever deal people, testers, right?"},{"startTime":1225.339,"endTime":1225.639,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1225.739,"endTime":1228.319,"body":", and all those people are on contract."},{"startTime":1228.649,"endTime":1234.469,"body":"So it, it basically is the product"},{"startTime":1228.649,"endTime":1234.469,"body":"person spending their dollars on buying"},{"startTime":1234.469,"endTime":1237.769,"body":"features by funding the development team."},{"startTime":1238.019,"endTime":1242.904,"body":"In those companies that have worked"},{"startTime":1238.019,"endTime":1242.904,"body":"like that, they've been hesitant."},{"startTime":1243.309,"endTime":1248.949,"body":"To spend any money on any story that"},{"startTime":1243.309,"endTime":1248.949,"body":"would say this story is just a capability"},{"startTime":1248.949,"endTime":1250.839,"body":"story enablement story, a training story."},{"startTime":1251.259,"endTime":1253.869,"body":"They, they don't, they're like, Oh, I"},{"startTime":1251.259,"endTime":1253.869,"body":"don't wanna spend any money on training,"},{"startTime":1254.369,"endTime":1256.049,"body":"especially training contractors."},{"startTime":1256.439,"endTime":1256.829,"body":"Oh, right."},{"startTime":1256.829,"endTime":1256.949,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1256.949,"endTime":1258.689,"body":"Because they're gonna"},{"startTime":1256.949,"endTime":1258.689,"body":"be gone is the thinking."},{"startTime":1258.689,"endTime":1258.929,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1258.929,"endTime":1260.369,"body":"They're gonna be gone after this project."},{"startTime":1260.429,"endTime":1262.259,"body":"Well, I mean, look, how"},{"startTime":1260.429,"endTime":1262.259,"body":"long are they gonna be gone?"},{"startTime":1262.759,"endTime":1264.199,"body":"Like, how many months"},{"startTime":1262.759,"endTime":1264.199,"body":"are they gonna be gone?"},{"startTime":1264.259,"endTime":1267.379,"body":"Like six months, a year,"},{"startTime":1264.259,"endTime":1267.379,"body":"18 months, three years."},{"startTime":1267.529,"endTime":1269.719,"body":"Like how long is too"},{"startTime":1267.529,"endTime":1269.719,"body":"long to not train people?"},{"startTime":1270.039,"endTime":1273.369,"body":"We stumble on an issue that"},{"startTime":1270.039,"endTime":1273.369,"body":"is super annoying to me."},{"startTime":1273.439,"endTime":1275.329,"body":"It doesn't matter who you're"},{"startTime":1273.439,"endTime":1275.329,"body":"working and how long they're"},{"startTime":1275.329,"endTime":1277.039,"body":"staying at your work center."},{"startTime":1277.289,"endTime":1279.209,"body":"If you're, you're in"},{"startTime":1277.289,"endTime":1279.209,"body":"leadership, that's your job."},{"startTime":1279.214,"endTime":1280.429,"body":"You're, you're, you're"},{"startTime":1279.214,"endTime":1280.429,"body":"the product manager."},{"startTime":1280.929,"endTime":1282.249,"body":"Should be called product leader, right?"},{"startTime":1282.399,"endTime":1287.089,"body":"If you're the product manager , hey"},{"startTime":1282.399,"endTime":1287.089,"body":"man, your job is to train and to make"},{"startTime":1287.089,"endTime":1292.189,"body":"better everyone that you work with, look,"},{"startTime":1287.089,"endTime":1292.189,"body":"make every situation that you're in."},{"startTime":1292.689,"endTime":1294.369,"body":"Let me think about how"},{"startTime":1292.689,"endTime":1294.369,"body":"to, how to phrase this."},{"startTime":1294.619,"endTime":1298.149,"body":"This is a statement, which I don't"},{"startTime":1294.619,"endTime":1298.149,"body":"know if it fits in the podcast."},{"startTime":1298.359,"endTime":1304.229,"body":"This is, this is a statement like a"},{"startTime":1298.359,"endTime":1304.229,"body":"personal worldview belief that I have."},{"startTime":1304.509,"endTime":1307.564,"body":"I try not to be binary in my"},{"startTime":1304.509,"endTime":1307.564,"body":"decisions cause I'm a product manager."},{"startTime":1307.564,"endTime":1309.724,"body":"I was like, it's forget,"},{"startTime":1307.564,"endTime":1309.724,"body":"everything's a shady gray, Right?"},{"startTime":1310.024,"endTime":1313.234,"body":"But I like on this one, I am"},{"startTime":1310.024,"endTime":1313.234,"body":"kind of b I am kind of binary."},{"startTime":1313.234,"endTime":1315.094,"body":"Hey, I am, I'm coming out as binary."},{"startTime":1315.304,"endTime":1317.994,"body":"Um, on this one, I am kind of binary."},{"startTime":1318.049,"endTime":1325.119,"body":"Because I kind of think that there"},{"startTime":1318.049,"endTime":1325.119,"body":"are people who say any situation"},{"startTime":1325.119,"endTime":1329.609,"body":"I'm in, I want to make it better"},{"startTime":1325.119,"endTime":1329.609,"body":"for the people who come after me."},{"startTime":1329.859,"endTime":1334.749,"body":"If I'm handed something that's garbage,"},{"startTime":1329.859,"endTime":1334.749,"body":"I need to improve it so that whoever"},{"startTime":1334.754,"endTime":1338.909,"body":"picks it up after me doesn't have to deal"},{"startTime":1334.754,"endTime":1338.909,"body":"with as much pain as I had to deal with."},{"startTime":1339.409,"endTime":1344.019,"body":"And then, and then there are people"},{"startTime":1339.409,"endTime":1344.019,"body":"who say, I had to deal with this"},{"startTime":1344.019,"endTime":1349.859,"body":"mess, so you should just  toughen up"},{"startTime":1344.019,"endTime":1349.859,"body":"and be able to deal with the mess."},{"startTime":1349.989,"endTime":1352.779,"body":"This is getting like way"},{"startTime":1349.989,"endTime":1352.779,"body":"meta in my worldview."},{"startTime":1353.094,"endTime":1354.624,"body":"There are two types of people."},{"startTime":1354.624,"endTime":1355.104,"body":"There are."},{"startTime":1355.134,"endTime":1360.484,"body":"I had it rough coming up, so I should"},{"startTime":1355.134,"endTime":1360.484,"body":"either turn a blind eye or make it"},{"startTime":1360.544,"endTime":1365.794,"body":"rough for the people that are coming"},{"startTime":1360.544,"endTime":1365.794,"body":"up so they learn what I learned or"},{"startTime":1366.094,"endTime":1369.514,"body":"like I had it rough coming up, so I"},{"startTime":1366.094,"endTime":1369.514,"body":"should make it better so that people"},{"startTime":1369.514,"endTime":1373.384,"body":"coming after me don't have to deal"},{"startTime":1369.514,"endTime":1373.384,"body":"with the nonsense I had to deal with."},{"startTime":1373.744,"endTime":1374.554,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1374.554,"endTime":1377.534,"body":"Essentially the difference between leave"},{"startTime":1374.554,"endTime":1377.534,"body":"the world a better place or let people"},{"startTime":1377.539,"endTime":1379.274,"body":"step in the do-do themselves, right."},{"startTime":1379.334,"endTime":1383.734,"body":"but you know, a lot of times, , you're"},{"startTime":1379.334,"endTime":1383.734,"body":"within the confines of your own budget."},{"startTime":1383.734,"endTime":1387.394,"body":"How you're measured isn't"},{"startTime":1383.734,"endTime":1387.394,"body":"necessarily on how you leave things."},{"startTime":1387.394,"endTime":1387.484,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1387.724,"endTime":1390.094,"body":", it's how you perform here and now."},{"startTime":1390.304,"endTime":1390.394,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1390.399,"endTime":1390.544,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1390.544,"endTime":1393.834,"body":"So that kind of, constricts people"},{"startTime":1390.544,"endTime":1393.834,"body":"a little bit on what they can do."},{"startTime":1393.864,"endTime":1394.464,"body":"That's interesting."},{"startTime":1394.464,"endTime":1398.024,"body":"But I would say even within the"},{"startTime":1394.464,"endTime":1398.024,"body":"realms of your own product, without"},{"startTime":1398.024,"endTime":1401.084,"body":"that training component, you might"},{"startTime":1398.024,"endTime":1401.084,"body":"get there, you might just get there"},{"startTime":1401.084,"endTime":1403.484,"body":"late, you might have subpar quality."},{"startTime":1403.754,"endTime":1404.174,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1404.414,"endTime":1406.694,"body":"So you'll you're still paying for it."},{"startTime":1406.724,"endTime":1406.784,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1406.874,"endTime":1409.634,"body":"You're paying for it in the longer"},{"startTime":1406.874,"endTime":1409.634,"body":"term, medium to longer term."},{"startTime":1409.634,"endTime":1409.724,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1409.784,"endTime":1411.884,"body":"Of duration of the product, let's say."},{"startTime":1412.384,"endTime":1416.329,"body":"So why not just invest up front and"},{"startTime":1412.384,"endTime":1416.329,"body":"get it right first time there's many"},{"startTime":1416.329,"endTime":1420.379,"body":"benefits to, to that, other than just"},{"startTime":1416.329,"endTime":1420.379,"body":"the, the, the, the financial ones."},{"startTime":1420.379,"endTime":1420.679,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1420.989,"endTime":1421.709,"body":"reputation."},{"startTime":1421.799,"endTime":1422.009,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1422.009,"endTime":1424.649,"body":"You don't wanna be seen as"},{"startTime":1422.009,"endTime":1424.649,"body":"failing, failing, failing, and"},{"startTime":1424.649,"endTime":1425.939,"body":"eventually modeling through."},{"startTime":1425.999,"endTime":1426.149,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1426.149,"endTime":1430.209,"body":"You want to be seen as, yeah, you"},{"startTime":1426.149,"endTime":1430.209,"body":"actually made a success out of"},{"startTime":1430.209,"endTime":1431.829,"body":"this product, so you have to train."},{"startTime":1432.069,"endTime":1434.499,"body":"And this idea of, Oh,"},{"startTime":1432.069,"endTime":1434.499,"body":"we're not gonna enable our."},{"startTime":1434.999,"endTime":1438.479,"body":"You know, at TPL or third"},{"startTime":1434.999,"endTime":1438.479,"body":"party labor contractors Yeah."},{"startTime":1438.629,"endTime":1442.159,"body":"That's asinine because you are hiring"},{"startTime":1438.629,"endTime":1442.159,"body":"them to do something with, they're"},{"startTime":1442.159,"endTime":1445.349,"body":"knowledge workers and they don't have"},{"startTime":1442.159,"endTime":1445.349,"body":"knowledge, so they're just workers."},{"startTime":1445.849,"endTime":1446.959,"body":"That makes no sense to me."},{"startTime":1447.039,"endTime":1450.239,"body":"so we started with talking"},{"startTime":1447.039,"endTime":1450.239,"body":"about, you need to know why."},{"startTime":1450.269,"endTime":1451.529,"body":"You need to know your purpose."},{"startTime":1451.589,"endTime":1454.829,"body":"You need to detail a purpose"},{"startTime":1451.589,"endTime":1454.829,"body":"and spread that evangelize"},{"startTime":1454.829,"endTime":1455.819,"body":"that through the organization."},{"startTime":1455.824,"endTime":1456.009,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1456.089,"endTime":1456.409,"body":", right."},{"startTime":1456.409,"endTime":1458.039,"body":"And, and, and through your customer base."},{"startTime":1458.039,"endTime":1461.669,"body":"Cuz now, now you're, you're finding"},{"startTime":1458.039,"endTime":1461.669,"body":"users and you're finding customers and"},{"startTime":1461.889,"endTime":1464.689,"body":"you're building your group of people"},{"startTime":1461.889,"endTime":1464.689,"body":"that you're, either testing your"},{"startTime":1464.689,"endTime":1468.559,"body":"assumptions on or, or doing surveys or"},{"startTime":1464.689,"endTime":1468.559,"body":"testing your ideas, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":1469.059,"endTime":1473.809,"body":"So you have a product goal, you"},{"startTime":1469.059,"endTime":1473.809,"body":"have an initial set of users."},{"startTime":1474.309,"endTime":1478.309,"body":"You've probably started talking"},{"startTime":1474.309,"endTime":1478.309,"body":"to those users to build your, to,"},{"startTime":1478.339,"endTime":1479.629,"body":"to basically seed your backlog."},{"startTime":1479.879,"endTime":1483.319,"body":"If we're gonna slice it to just"},{"startTime":1479.879,"endTime":1483.319,"body":"the role of product owner and"},{"startTime":1483.319,"endTime":1485.689,"body":"say, Hey, what should a product"},{"startTime":1483.319,"endTime":1485.689,"body":"owner be doing from the ground up?"},{"startTime":1485.689,"endTime":1487.609,"body":"Well, you're gonna need a product backlog."},{"startTime":1488.059,"endTime":1488.359,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1488.359,"endTime":1491.629,"body":"That your team pulls from, and your"},{"startTime":1488.359,"endTime":1491.629,"body":"product backlog is built off of a"},{"startTime":1491.629,"endTime":1493.339,"body":"bunch of stuff that you've tested."},{"startTime":1493.619,"endTime":1498.879,"body":"so in the beginning, your team is"},{"startTime":1493.619,"endTime":1498.879,"body":"not gonna be, Potentially, Right."},{"startTime":1498.879,"endTime":1501.399,"body":"Potentially not going to"},{"startTime":1498.879,"endTime":1501.399,"body":"be building functionality."},{"startTime":1501.459,"endTime":1504.519,"body":"I mean, maybe your team, maybe your"},{"startTime":1501.459,"endTime":1504.519,"body":"team would be like building some"},{"startTime":1504.519,"endTime":1507.639,"body":"infrastructure out and stuff like"},{"startTime":1504.519,"endTime":1507.639,"body":"that to support what you're doing, but"},{"startTime":1507.639,"endTime":1509.769,"body":"like they're not building features."},{"startTime":1510.009,"endTime":1510.939,"body":"No, you're right."},{"startTime":1510.939,"endTime":1513.549,"body":"So they're, they're building"},{"startTime":1510.939,"endTime":1513.549,"body":"the architecture runway perhaps."},{"startTime":1513.549,"endTime":1513.669,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1513.669,"endTime":1514.269,"body":"Maybe, maybe."},{"startTime":1514.299,"endTime":1517.319,"body":"Um, but they could also be"},{"startTime":1514.299,"endTime":1517.319,"body":"doing some sketches just"},{"startTime":1517.324,"endTime":1518.999,"body":"early prototypes, wire frames."},{"startTime":1519.029,"endTime":1519.239,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1519.269,"endTime":1522.779,"body":"Pick your words, bring those customers"},{"startTime":1519.269,"endTime":1522.779,"body":"in and get that feedback early."},{"startTime":1523.169,"endTime":1526.619,"body":"And so don't poke at it, look at it"},{"startTime":1523.169,"endTime":1526.619,"body":"and say, Does this look about right?"},{"startTime":1526.619,"endTime":1530.564,"body":"And then next time they they come to"},{"startTime":1526.619,"endTime":1530.564,"body":"your, your group, you can say, Well,"},{"startTime":1530.564,"endTime":1534.434,"body":"look, now you can poke at it a little"},{"startTime":1530.564,"endTime":1534.434,"body":"bit, but don't push it too hard."},{"startTime":1534.464,"endTime":1534.794,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1534.794,"endTime":1537.884,"body":"But we get feedback"},{"startTime":1534.794,"endTime":1537.884,"body":"and so keep doing that."},{"startTime":1537.884,"endTime":1542.644,"body":"You're not delivering anything into quote"},{"startTime":1537.884,"endTime":1542.644,"body":"unquote, the wild production just yet."},{"startTime":1542.734,"endTime":1543.064,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1543.364,"endTime":1545.614,"body":"But you are definitely getting there."},{"startTime":1545.704,"endTime":1546.004,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1546.334,"endTime":1547.804,"body":"The reason I bring up the concept."},{"startTime":1548.054,"endTime":1549.844,"body":", experimenting, Hmm."},{"startTime":1550.174,"endTime":1555.764,"body":"With users is because let's"},{"startTime":1550.174,"endTime":1555.764,"body":"assume the quickest, like a"},{"startTime":1555.914,"endTime":1557.894,"body":"rolling start to this race, right?"},{"startTime":1558.394,"endTime":1562.874,"body":"Let's assume that you've broken off"},{"startTime":1558.394,"endTime":1562.874,"body":"half of a team an already working"},{"startTime":1562.874,"endTime":1567.304,"body":"together, established team, and you've"},{"startTime":1562.874,"endTime":1567.304,"body":"broken them off into a, into a team."},{"startTime":1567.544,"endTime":1572.679,"body":"So they have a new product owner, a"},{"startTime":1567.544,"endTime":1572.679,"body":"new, already established developers"},{"startTime":1572.679,"endTime":1574.689,"body":"who, they know your architecture."},{"startTime":1574.749,"endTime":1577.449,"body":"They already have a definition of done,"},{"startTime":1574.749,"endTime":1577.449,"body":"They already have working agreements."},{"startTime":1577.454,"endTime":1581.909,"body":"They already they, they've already"},{"startTime":1577.454,"endTime":1581.909,"body":"worked through the how to work together"},{"startTime":1582.059,"endTime":1586.559,"body":"for all of the, the tuckman's model"},{"startTime":1582.059,"endTime":1586.559,"body":"stuff, like all that low hanging fruit"},{"startTime":1586.564,"endTime":1590.659,"body":"that most podcasts probably like, just"},{"startTime":1586.564,"endTime":1590.659,"body":"to hammer on, like the whole, they've"},{"startTime":1590.659,"endTime":1593.849,"body":"glanced over all it, They, they, they"},{"startTime":1590.659,"endTime":1593.849,"body":"just glossed over all that stuff."},{"startTime":1594.349,"endTime":1595.849,"body":"They've been doing it for years."},{"startTime":1596.269,"endTime":1596.449,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":1597.039,"endTime":1603.959,"body":", but you've given them a new subset of"},{"startTime":1597.039,"endTime":1603.959,"body":"users and now the team has to basically"},{"startTime":1603.959,"endTime":1605.399,"body":"they don't have anything to develop yet."},{"startTime":1605.459,"endTime":1607.679,"body":"They have to figure out"},{"startTime":1605.459,"endTime":1607.679,"body":"what to develop, so Right."},{"startTime":1607.769,"endTime":1612.039,"body":"Everybody on the team potentially"},{"startTime":1607.769,"endTime":1612.039,"body":"could be engaged in what you just"},{"startTime":1612.044,"endTime":1613.549,"body":"brought up, what you just brought up."},{"startTime":1613.719,"endTime":1616.849,"body":"I might cut all, everything I just"},{"startTime":1613.719,"endTime":1616.849,"body":"said, I might cut out what you just"},{"startTime":1616.849,"endTime":1620.569,"body":"brought up about wire framing and"},{"startTime":1616.849,"endTime":1620.569,"body":"experimentation with wire framing and"},{"startTime":1620.779,"endTime":1622.009,"body":"putting stuff around the customers."},{"startTime":1622.259,"endTime":1626.609,"body":"Assuming that you have a team that's"},{"startTime":1622.259,"endTime":1626.609,"body":"broken off from an already successful"},{"startTime":1626.609,"endTime":1629.739,"body":"team, already established team,"},{"startTime":1626.609,"endTime":1629.739,"body":"they might go from like a building"},{"startTime":1629.739,"endTime":1632.499,"body":"stuff and like being on deadlines"},{"startTime":1629.739,"endTime":1632.499,"body":"of like, Oh, gotta get this feature."},{"startTime":1632.499,"endTime":1633.369,"body":"I've gotta get this feature out."},{"startTime":1633.549,"endTime":1637.309,"body":"They might go from that to, I'm not"},{"startTime":1633.549,"endTime":1637.309,"body":"writing a single line of code anymore."},{"startTime":1637.809,"endTime":1639.669,"body":"Because we don't know"},{"startTime":1637.809,"endTime":1639.669,"body":"what we need to write yet."},{"startTime":1639.759,"endTime":1639.879,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1639.909,"endTime":1644.429,"body":"So all of our time is building"},{"startTime":1639.909,"endTime":1644.429,"body":"wire frames, getting customers"},{"startTime":1644.429,"endTime":1648.519,"body":"on the phone, running surveys,"},{"startTime":1644.429,"endTime":1648.519,"body":"doing demos, stuff like that."},{"startTime":1648.519,"endTime":1652.589,"body":"You know, e every, every day and"},{"startTime":1648.519,"endTime":1652.589,"body":"a half, potentially whatever,"},{"startTime":1652.589,"endTime":1653.789,"body":"every two days, whatever it is."},{"startTime":1653.879,"endTime":1656.779,"body":"Yep, getting a customer on the"},{"startTime":1653.879,"endTime":1656.779,"body":"phone, showing them the wire frame,"},{"startTime":1656.779,"endTime":1658.759,"body":"or we're sending the customer"},{"startTime":1656.779,"endTime":1658.759,"body":"wire frame, whatever you're doing."},{"startTime":1659.259,"endTime":1662.319,"body":"And now they're in the, they're in"},{"startTime":1659.259,"endTime":1662.319,"body":"a completely different line of work."},{"startTime":1662.469,"endTime":1665.919,"body":"Quite honestly, and this is, this is"},{"startTime":1662.469,"endTime":1665.919,"body":"uncomfortable for a lot of the developers."},{"startTime":1665.919,"endTime":1667.719,"body":"Developers, because they"},{"startTime":1665.919,"endTime":1667.719,"body":"want to get hands on code."},{"startTime":1667.724,"endTime":1668.829,"body":"Let me alone, let me code."},{"startTime":1669.129,"endTime":1671.469,"body":"So I would say in my mind at least."},{"startTime":1671.474,"endTime":1671.619,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1671.709,"endTime":1673.119,"body":", here's the next thing."},{"startTime":1673.119,"endTime":1673.449,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1673.449,"endTime":1677.889,"body":"So instead of every day and a half, two"},{"startTime":1673.449,"endTime":1677.889,"body":"days, bring your customers in your sprint."},{"startTime":1678.389,"endTime":1678.809,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1678.809,"endTime":1679.919,"body":"Bring them into your sprint."},{"startTime":1680.069,"endTime":1683.489,"body":"They're sitting with the developers"},{"startTime":1680.069,"endTime":1683.489,"body":"and they're ideating together."},{"startTime":1683.669,"endTime":1683.819,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1683.939,"endTime":1686.669,"body":"Your architect, they, I"},{"startTime":1683.939,"endTime":1686.669,"body":"mean, real time feedback."},{"startTime":1686.729,"endTime":1686.849,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1687.179,"endTime":1690.329,"body":"And do that for Sprint or two"},{"startTime":1687.179,"endTime":1690.329,"body":"if, as long as the customer's"},{"startTime":1690.409,"endTime":1691.589,"body":"willing to give you time."},{"startTime":1691.949,"endTime":1694.919,"body":"Now, if they can't, that's"},{"startTime":1691.949,"endTime":1694.919,"body":"different, but get as much time"},{"startTime":1694.919,"endTime":1696.569,"body":"as you can from that customer."},{"startTime":1696.689,"endTime":1697.089,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1697.169,"endTime":1698.639,"body":"in these ideation sessions."},{"startTime":1699.119,"endTime":1702.959,"body":"And the developers, like I said, they,"},{"startTime":1699.119,"endTime":1702.959,"body":"they're eager to get hands on keyboard."},{"startTime":1703.459,"endTime":1705.109,"body":"But this is critical, right?"},{"startTime":1705.114,"endTime":1708.279,"body":"Because this sets the"},{"startTime":1705.114,"endTime":1708.279,"body":"vision becoming reality."},{"startTime":1708.779,"endTime":1709.2,"body":"You know?"},{"startTime":1709.205,"endTime":1710.849,"body":"It sets you off in that path."},{"startTime":1711.119,"endTime":1713.639,"body":"Otherwise you're gonna build"},{"startTime":1711.119,"endTime":1713.639,"body":"something, come back, correct it."},{"startTime":1713.669,"endTime":1714.959,"body":"Okay, now you have technical debt."},{"startTime":1714.989,"endTime":1715.679,"body":"Right, Right,"},{"startTime":1715.929,"endTime":1719.199,"body":"you might have technical debt"},{"startTime":1715.929,"endTime":1719.199,"body":"regardless, but I mean, at least,"},{"startTime":1719.379,"endTime":1720.999,"body":"at least you know what it is."},{"startTime":1721.004,"endTime":1725.059,"body":"You know, at least like, this is, this is"},{"startTime":1721.004,"endTime":1725.059,"body":"why, like a big revelation for me was the"},{"startTime":1725.059,"endTime":1729.414,"body":"concept of breaking my stuff into alpha"},{"startTime":1725.059,"endTime":1729.414,"body":"beta production like like it, because"},{"startTime":1729.419,"endTime":1732.134,"body":"it's assumed at each of those stages."},{"startTime":1732.384,"endTime":1734.789,"body":"It's less of a, it's"},{"startTime":1732.384,"endTime":1734.789,"body":"less of a phase thing."},{"startTime":1734.789,"endTime":1738.119,"body":"Because when I say it in like, Oh,"},{"startTime":1734.789,"endTime":1738.119,"body":"it's a alpha phase, beta phase product."},{"startTime":1738.239,"endTime":1739.439,"body":"Like, it sounds like waterfall, right?"},{"startTime":1739.459,"endTime":1739.739,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1739.829,"endTime":1740.039,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1740.039,"endTime":1746.139,"body":"Like, it's, it's less,  waterfall and"},{"startTime":1740.039,"endTime":1746.139,"body":"more of when I communicate the state"},{"startTime":1746.139,"endTime":1752.499,"body":"of the product, it's way more clear"},{"startTime":1746.139,"endTime":1752.499,"body":"for me just to use those boiler plate."},{"startTime":1752.899,"endTime":1758.529,"body":", terms to say like, Hey, this product"},{"startTime":1752.899,"endTime":1758.529,"body":"is an alpha, which means for example"},{"startTime":1758.579,"endTime":1762.509,"body":"I've got it on some test servers that"},{"startTime":1758.579,"endTime":1762.509,"body":"maybe some customers have access to."},{"startTime":1762.539,"endTime":1764.669,"body":"Maybe any internal customer has access to."},{"startTime":1764.849,"endTime":1765.389,"body":"You can bring it up."},{"startTime":1765.389,"endTime":1769.909,"body":"Like we can demo it to a customer, but we"},{"startTime":1765.389,"endTime":1769.909,"body":"have to be driving it, it doesn't scale."},{"startTime":1769.909,"endTime":1772.339,"body":"You can't have people all"},{"startTime":1769.909,"endTime":1772.339,"body":"over the internet hitting it."},{"startTime":1772.369,"endTime":1776.749,"body":"Like it only uses, maybe it only"},{"startTime":1772.369,"endTime":1776.749,"body":"uses a subset of data that is"},{"startTime":1776.809,"endTime":1780.789,"body":"curated or whatever maybe it doesn't"},{"startTime":1776.809,"endTime":1780.789,"body":"cover every, but that's alpha."},{"startTime":1780.929,"endTime":1785.239,"body":"beta, maybe like, maybe beta is"},{"startTime":1780.929,"endTime":1785.239,"body":"like, maybe only customers, , a"},{"startTime":1785.244,"endTime":1786.699,"body":"few customers have access to it."},{"startTime":1786.699,"endTime":1789.569,"body":"Maybe, , if we have a, like a"},{"startTime":1786.699,"endTime":1789.569,"body":"steering committee or whatever,"},{"startTime":1789.569,"endTime":1792.719,"body":"like some of those customers have"},{"startTime":1789.569,"endTime":1792.719,"body":"access to it, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":1792.749,"endTime":1795.419,"body":", maybe it doesn't scale or"},{"startTime":1792.749,"endTime":1795.419,"body":"maybe it scales to a point."},{"startTime":1795.479,"endTime":1795.629,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1795.929,"endTime":1797.609,"body":"You're getting to a"},{"startTime":1795.929,"endTime":1797.609,"body":"pilot stage now, right?"},{"startTime":1797.609,"endTime":1798.269,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1798.269,"endTime":1798.27,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1798.275,"endTime":1803.339,"body":"So, so the, there are certain, like"},{"startTime":1798.275,"endTime":1803.339,"body":"basically what standards does the software"},{"startTime":1803.344,"endTime":1809.269,"body":"meet, and in order to encapsulate all"},{"startTime":1803.344,"endTime":1809.269,"body":"those standards in one term mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1809.459,"endTime":1812.829,"body":"I'm using those terms, I'm using"},{"startTime":1809.459,"endTime":1812.829,"body":"those terms as a product manager , to"},{"startTime":1812.834,"endTime":1817.359,"body":"express what standards the software"},{"startTime":1812.834,"endTime":1817.359,"body":"meets at the stage that we're at."},{"startTime":1817.389,"endTime":1818.039,"body":"In, in."},{"startTime":1818.044,"endTime":1823.879,"body":"Because, because we might explore"},{"startTime":1818.044,"endTime":1823.879,"body":"some features in Alpha that we might"},{"startTime":1823.879,"endTime":1825.949,"body":"abandon when we decide to go to beta."},{"startTime":1826.099,"endTime":1826.309,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":1826.689,"endTime":1830.739,"body":"I was at a company one time where as"},{"startTime":1826.689,"endTime":1830.739,"body":"on contract, I was at this company"},{"startTime":1830.979,"endTime":1835.049,"body":"and I would say that they were a"},{"startTime":1830.979,"endTime":1835.049,"body":"product led company but I would also"},{"startTime":1835.054,"endTime":1840.299,"body":"say they were like borderline being"},{"startTime":1835.054,"endTime":1840.299,"body":"a sales led company because sales"},{"startTime":1840.299,"endTime":1842.489,"body":"was very influential at that company."},{"startTime":1842.989,"endTime":1844.169,"body":"And they, they were very good."},{"startTime":1844.169,"endTime":1847.079,"body":"I mean, they were very in tune"},{"startTime":1844.169,"endTime":1847.079,"body":"with what the customers needed"},{"startTime":1847.079,"endTime":1848.459,"body":"and, and the customers' desires."},{"startTime":1848.459,"endTime":1853.169,"body":"And that I, I tried to partner as"},{"startTime":1848.459,"endTime":1853.169,"body":"closely to the sales people as possible."},{"startTime":1853.199,"endTime":1855.689,"body":"Cause they were all domain experts."},{"startTime":1855.869,"endTime":1857.909,"body":"They were all experts"},{"startTime":1855.869,"endTime":1857.909,"body":"in the actual software."},{"startTime":1857.914,"endTime":1858.929,"body":"So they knew what the software."},{"startTime":1859.429,"endTime":1859.819,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1860.129,"endTime":1862.739,"body":", and they had a, they had a strong"},{"startTime":1860.129,"endTime":1862.739,"body":"vision, which I had to try to"},{"startTime":1862.819,"endTime":1866.789,"body":"roll into my product vision as the"},{"startTime":1862.819,"endTime":1866.789,"body":"product manager of the company."},{"startTime":1867.039,"endTime":1871.894,"body":"You can have staged exposure to customers"},{"startTime":1867.039,"endTime":1871.894,"body":"that when you were talking about the,"},{"startTime":1871.894,"endTime":1875.834,"body":"the alpha and the beta or whatever it"},{"startTime":1871.894,"endTime":1875.834,"body":"was it, that the, that is the biggest"},{"startTime":1875.839,"endTime":1877.664,"body":"thing it does, is it sets expectation."},{"startTime":1877.664,"endTime":1879.614,"body":"This product has rough edges, Right?"},{"startTime":1879.914,"endTime":1882.754,"body":"It's not intended for"},{"startTime":1879.914,"endTime":1882.754,"body":"production use necessarily."},{"startTime":1882.754,"endTime":1884.884,"body":"Not the first one, not the alpha, perhaps."},{"startTime":1884.914,"endTime":1885.004,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1885.244,"endTime":1886.264,"body":". Just, just get some feedback."},{"startTime":1886.654,"endTime":1888.065,"body":"Oh, I, I, I know what it was."},{"startTime":1888.065,"endTime":1888.304,"body":"I'm sorry."},{"startTime":1888.304,"endTime":1888.874,"body":"I know what it was."},{"startTime":1889.114,"endTime":1892.914,"body":"So the, at that company"},{"startTime":1889.114,"endTime":1892.914,"body":"sales had a strong vision."},{"startTime":1893.034,"endTime":1893.394,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1893.394,"endTime":1896.109,"body":"But their vision was also informed."},{"startTime":1896.609,"endTime":1901.109,"body":"By what the competitors' products"},{"startTime":1896.609,"endTime":1901.109,"body":"were doing, because as as salespeople,"},{"startTime":1901.289,"endTime":1902.489,"body":"they felt a lot of pressure."},{"startTime":1902.489,"endTime":1905.189,"body":"You know, they would go into a customer,"},{"startTime":1902.489,"endTime":1905.189,"body":"they would go into a sale and say,"},{"startTime":1905.189,"endTime":1910.874,"body":"Hey, , your, your product can't do X,"},{"startTime":1905.189,"endTime":1910.874,"body":"Y, Z and your competitors can do, some"},{"startTime":1910.874,"endTime":1914.094,"body":"can do X, some can do Y some can do Z."},{"startTime":1914.094,"endTime":1916.404,"body":"Like how come your product"},{"startTime":1914.094,"endTime":1916.404,"body":"can't do all that stuff?"},{"startTime":1916.409,"endTime":1916.744,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1916.749,"endTime":1916.764,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1916.764,"endTime":1919.434,"body":"And, and then sales obviously"},{"startTime":1916.764,"endTime":1919.434,"body":"would come back and be like, Oh,"},{"startTime":1919.434,"endTime":1920.934,"body":"our product has to do X, Y, Z."},{"startTime":1921.414,"endTime":1921.744,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1921.744,"endTime":1927.264,"body":"So I, as a product manager has had to say"},{"startTime":1921.744,"endTime":1927.264,"body":"like, Well, I mean, what the way to take"},{"startTime":1927.264,"endTime":1935.534,"body":"that stuff in is to do some experiments"},{"startTime":1927.264,"endTime":1935.534,"body":"with X and Y and  Z separately."},{"startTime":1936.034,"endTime":1939.574,"body":"See how difficult they're gonna"},{"startTime":1936.034,"endTime":1939.574,"body":"be to implement, take them"},{"startTime":1939.574,"endTime":1942.634,"body":"back to my development team,"},{"startTime":1939.574,"endTime":1942.634,"body":"do some refinements, right?"},{"startTime":1943.134,"endTime":1946.224,"body":"Get a customer that really wants"},{"startTime":1943.134,"endTime":1946.224,"body":"that functionality on the line."},{"startTime":1946.374,"endTime":1947.784,"body":"Talk about what they really need."},{"startTime":1947.964,"endTime":1948.474,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1948.744,"endTime":1950.754,"body":"Because when, look, when"},{"startTime":1948.744,"endTime":1950.754,"body":"you're talking about feature."},{"startTime":1951.254,"endTime":1952.344,"body":"Feature parity."},{"startTime":1952.364,"endTime":1954.284,"body":"That's, that's the word"},{"startTime":1952.364,"endTime":1954.284,"body":"that'll get thrown around here."},{"startTime":1954.374,"endTime":1954.554,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1954.554,"endTime":1955.524,"body":"You're talking about feature parity."},{"startTime":1955.544,"endTime":1959.654,"body":"Like, and especially when you're talking"},{"startTime":1955.544,"endTime":1959.654,"body":"about it with competitors of mine, like"},{"startTime":1959.654,"endTime":1965.654,"body":"you have no idea if that's like the"},{"startTime":1959.654,"endTime":1965.654,"body":"worst feature they have ever implemented"},{"startTime":1965.654,"endTime":1966.794,"body":"in the history of their company."},{"startTime":1967.004,"endTime":1971.954,"body":"If it just drags their database down and"},{"startTime":1967.004,"endTime":1971.954,"body":"it's completely unprofitable and only one"},{"startTime":1971.954,"endTime":1974.054,"body":"or two people to use it, you have no idea."},{"startTime":1974.324,"endTime":1977.174,"body":"Like, all you're seeing is like,"},{"startTime":1974.324,"endTime":1977.174,"body":"well, our, our product doesn't"},{"startTime":1977.174,"endTime":1978.584,"body":"do it and their product does it."},{"startTime":1978.794,"endTime":1982.874,"body":"So it like, that's where I"},{"startTime":1978.794,"endTime":1982.874,"body":"like the alpha beta production."},{"startTime":1983.174,"endTime":1986.114,"body":", like again, I try to stay"},{"startTime":1983.174,"endTime":1986.114,"body":"away from the idea of phases."},{"startTime":1986.114,"endTime":1990.984,"body":"Cuz again, it sounds like waterfall,"},{"startTime":1986.114,"endTime":1990.984,"body":"but if I'm gonna treat it like product"},{"startTime":1990.984,"endTime":1995.214,"body":"discovery and let's look at it in"},{"startTime":1990.984,"endTime":1995.214,"body":"that light of product discovery,"},{"startTime":1995.484,"endTime":1998.314,"body":"alpha beta production, maybe I don't"},{"startTime":1995.484,"endTime":1998.314,"body":"wanna develop the whole solution."},{"startTime":1998.314,"endTime":2002.004,"body":"Maybe I just wanna develop like"},{"startTime":1998.314,"endTime":2002.004,"body":"a, some screen designs or some"},{"startTime":2002.334,"endTime":2003.954,"body":"mockups or something like that."},{"startTime":2004.044,"endTime":2004.224,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":2004.404,"endTime":2009.179,"body":"That look like what the feature could"},{"startTime":2004.404,"endTime":2009.179,"body":"be to see, or maybe add it like, , other"},{"startTime":2009.184,"endTime":2012.329,"body":"applications do this, They add it"},{"startTime":2009.184,"endTime":2012.329,"body":"to menus to see who clicks on it."},{"startTime":2012.749,"endTime":2013.169,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2013.169,"endTime":2014.669,"body":"That the fake door feature, Right."},{"startTime":2014.669,"endTime":2015.059,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2015.299,"endTime":2016.439,"body":", to see who clicks on it."},{"startTime":2016.939,"endTime":2020.559,"body":"Facebook used to do that back in the"},{"startTime":2016.939,"endTime":2020.559,"body":"day, like all, all over the place."},{"startTime":2020.799,"endTime":2021.099,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2021.349,"endTime":2023.929,"body":", to, to inform them whether they"},{"startTime":2021.349,"endTime":2023.929,"body":"should be putting money into it."},{"startTime":2023.929,"endTime":2030.134,"body":"Because like, my thinking is we have no"},{"startTime":2023.929,"endTime":2030.134,"body":"idea if a customer has that and they're"},{"startTime":2030.134,"endTime":2035.174,"body":"just touting it in their release notes"},{"startTime":2030.134,"endTime":2035.174,"body":"as like, Oh, here's our hot new thing."},{"startTime":2035.594,"endTime":2038.804,"body":"But it like behind the scenes,"},{"startTime":2035.594,"endTime":2038.804,"body":"it is just not a good feature."},{"startTime":2039.014,"endTime":2039.164,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2039.164,"endTime":2043.634,"body":"Like we, because we're not"},{"startTime":2039.164,"endTime":2043.634,"body":"users, we, the competitor, we're"},{"startTime":2043.639,"endTime":2044.924,"body":"not users of their product."},{"startTime":2045.424,"endTime":2048.694,"body":"We would not know if the"},{"startTime":2045.424,"endTime":2048.694,"body":"feature is really good or not."},{"startTime":2048.784,"endTime":2048.934,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2048.934,"endTime":2051.334,"body":"Use Jason Parity, as"},{"startTime":2048.934,"endTime":2051.334,"body":"you said earlier, right?"},{"startTime":2051.334,"endTime":2051.454,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2051.454,"endTime":2056.324,"body":"And we can, we can really run"},{"startTime":2051.454,"endTime":2056.324,"body":"ourselves into a rut, like a"},{"startTime":2056.329,"endTime":2057.934,"body":"profit wise, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2057.934,"endTime":2059.344,"body":"Like expense wise."},{"startTime":2059.564,"endTime":2062.324,"body":"I wanna pull us back to the, I'm"},{"startTime":2059.564,"endTime":2062.324,"body":"pulling this back to the topic"},{"startTime":2062.474,"endTime":2065.474,"body":"under the banner of your, you"},{"startTime":2062.474,"endTime":2065.474,"body":"have a new team and a new product."},{"startTime":2065.474,"endTime":2069.004,"body":"Like if you're chasing parity"},{"startTime":2065.474,"endTime":2069.004,"body":"with competitors, Oh boy."},{"startTime":2069.004,"endTime":2072.664,"body":"Like you run into failure really quick if"},{"startTime":2069.004,"endTime":2072.664,"body":"you don't have, if you don't have like,"},{"startTime":2072.834,"endTime":2076.544,"body":", really aggressive, , Let me try this idea."},{"startTime":2076.549,"endTime":2077.294,"body":"Feedback loop."},{"startTime":2077.324,"endTime":2077.564,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2077.564,"endTime":2078.134,"body":"Feedback loop."},{"startTime":2078.224,"endTime":2078.824,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2079.324,"endTime":2082.324,"body":"Chasing parity is a dangerous"},{"startTime":2079.324,"endTime":2082.324,"body":"slope because when you've reached"},{"startTime":2082.324,"endTime":2083.974,"body":"parity, what happens, right?"},{"startTime":2084.154,"endTime":2087.094,"body":"So then you say, Well, we got, we"},{"startTime":2084.154,"endTime":2087.094,"body":"gotta get ahead of the competition."},{"startTime":2087.099,"endTime":2088.714,"body":"Now let's build in some features."},{"startTime":2088.924,"endTime":2091.834,"body":"You think these are useful,"},{"startTime":2088.924,"endTime":2091.834,"body":"but you really have no idea."},{"startTime":2091.894,"endTime":2094.984,"body":"Well also like it when you reach"},{"startTime":2091.894,"endTime":2094.984,"body":"parity, a hundred percent pardy"},{"startTime":2095.034,"endTime":2096.624,"body":"are you at the end of your vision?"},{"startTime":2096.954,"endTime":2099.714,"body":"Because you were just doing"},{"startTime":2096.954,"endTime":2099.714,"body":"what the competitors are doing."},{"startTime":2099.834,"endTime":2099.924,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2099.974,"endTime":2103.124,"body":"so do you now literally"},{"startTime":2099.974,"endTime":2103.124,"body":"have no other good ideas?"},{"startTime":2103.154,"endTime":2106.814,"body":"Well you, you end up creating"},{"startTime":2103.154,"endTime":2106.814,"body":"bad features now to get ahead."},{"startTime":2106.819,"endTime":2106.984,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2106.994,"endTime":2107.414,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2107.414,"endTime":2110.474,"body":"And hope in the hope that that"},{"startTime":2107.414,"endTime":2110.474,"body":"will give you a competitive edge."},{"startTime":2110.504,"endTime":2110.594,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2111.094,"endTime":2112.894,"body":"So that is a bad idea all around."},{"startTime":2112.899,"endTime":2116.434,"body":"I I do think they'll, just to go"},{"startTime":2112.899,"endTime":2116.434,"body":"back to this, I this, I, I don't"},{"startTime":2116.434,"endTime":2119.804,"body":"wanna use the word phase either,"},{"startTime":2116.434,"endTime":2119.804,"body":"but,  staggered, I don't know."},{"startTime":2119.834,"endTime":2120.374,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":2120.374,"endTime":2123.164,"body":"Different ways of launching the,"},{"startTime":2120.374,"endTime":2123.164,"body":"the product to get feedback."},{"startTime":2123.664,"endTime":2126.634,"body":"You could do that in a number"},{"startTime":2123.664,"endTime":2126.634,"body":"of different ways in practice."},{"startTime":2126.784,"endTime":2127.174,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2127.294,"endTime":2131.354,"body":"And they probably are as many, again"},{"startTime":2127.294,"endTime":2131.354,"body":"as as we are about to talk about."},{"startTime":2131.354,"endTime":2134.034,"body":"So you could do things"},{"startTime":2131.354,"endTime":2134.034,"body":"like, , dark launches, you"},{"startTime":2134.034,"endTime":2135.564,"body":"could do blue/green deployments."},{"startTime":2135.864,"endTime":2136.044,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2136.104,"endTime":2136.434,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2136.464,"endTime":2138.534,"body":", using b testing would be a testing."},{"startTime":2138.539,"endTime":2138.744,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2138.744,"endTime":2142.924,"body":"And then perhaps using feature management"},{"startTime":2138.744,"endTime":2142.924,"body":"with feature toggles just turn on"},{"startTime":2142.924,"endTime":2147.944,"body":"functionality at will for certain"},{"startTime":2142.924,"endTime":2147.944,"body":"users in certain cases, get feedback."},{"startTime":2148.014,"endTime":2151.584,"body":"And if it all goes to part, turn"},{"startTime":2148.014,"endTime":2151.584,"body":"it off real quick without having."},{"startTime":2152.084,"endTime":2156.914,"body":"redeploy software right there, there are"},{"startTime":2152.084,"endTime":2156.914,"body":"probably just as many again out there."},{"startTime":2157.034,"endTime":2157.214,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":2157.214,"endTime":2159.044,"body":"Well that, that, I mean that"},{"startTime":2157.214,"endTime":2159.044,"body":"like that's a great point."},{"startTime":2159.044,"endTime":2164.234,"body":"Like a fe feature toggles for your like I"},{"startTime":2159.044,"endTime":2164.234,"body":"Ira throughout the term beta users, Right."},{"startTime":2164.474,"endTime":2168.404,"body":"Uhhuh  feature toggle to turn on"},{"startTime":2164.474,"endTime":2168.404,"body":"the feature for your beta users."},{"startTime":2168.794,"endTime":2172.664,"body":"So you have a subset of users that"},{"startTime":2168.794,"endTime":2172.664,"body":"have access to this new feature."},{"startTime":2172.664,"endTime":2173.504,"body":"Let them shake it down."},{"startTime":2173.654,"endTime":2176.954,"body":"Or like, I've been in other organizations"},{"startTime":2173.654,"endTime":2176.954,"body":"that have a completely different"},{"startTime":2176.954,"endTime":2179.764,"body":"environment that has the same data."},{"startTime":2179.764,"endTime":2183.754,"body":"They pipe the data over from production"},{"startTime":2179.764,"endTime":2183.754,"body":"to their test environment or whatever."},{"startTime":2183.754,"endTime":2185.254,"body":"Some kind of stage environment,"},{"startTime":2183.754,"endTime":2185.254,"body":"middle environment."},{"startTime":2185.254,"endTime":2185.464,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2185.704,"endTime":2189.844,"body":"But then they have like wildly"},{"startTime":2185.704,"endTime":2189.844,"body":"new Google, you should do this."},{"startTime":2190.264,"endTime":2192.004,"body":"Hey, we're all old on the podcast."},{"startTime":2192.004,"endTime":2196.144,"body":"Like back when goo back when"},{"startTime":2192.004,"endTime":2196.144,"body":"Gmail used to be like Google Labs,"},{"startTime":2196.144,"endTime":2199.024,"body":"like ear way early, like when you"},{"startTime":2196.144,"endTime":2199.024,"body":"had to get invited or whatever."},{"startTime":2199.024,"endTime":2200.434,"body":"It was Google Mail back then too."},{"startTime":2200.794,"endTime":2201.214,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2201.219,"endTime":2203.764,"body":"They had, they had"},{"startTime":2201.219,"endTime":2203.764,"body":"features that were labs."},{"startTime":2204.064,"endTime":2207.564,"body":"Functionality that you could like"},{"startTime":2204.064,"endTime":2207.564,"body":"I remember  you can go into their"},{"startTime":2207.564,"endTime":2212.124,"body":"labs and you can add functions from"},{"startTime":2207.564,"endTime":2212.124,"body":"their labs to your normal products."},{"startTime":2212.154,"endTime":2212.364,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2212.544,"endTime":2216.474,"body":"You had to go into the labs portion of"},{"startTime":2212.544,"endTime":2216.474,"body":"the product and add it to the individual."},{"startTime":2216.474,"endTime":2219.759,"body":"Because I remember Google used"},{"startTime":2216.474,"endTime":2219.759,"body":"to have like, like used to"},{"startTime":2219.764,"endTime":2221.289,"body":"have back when they were good."},{"startTime":2221.349,"endTime":2223.479,"body":"They don't have this functionality"},{"startTime":2221.349,"endTime":2223.479,"body":"anymore cuz it was too good, it"},{"startTime":2223.479,"endTime":2228.339,"body":"was too hot for tv . They, they"},{"startTime":2223.479,"endTime":2228.339,"body":"had a mark as red button in Gmail."},{"startTime":2228.519,"endTime":2231.959,"body":"You can add the mark as red so you can"},{"startTime":2228.519,"endTime":2231.959,"body":"go click, click, click and click a bunch"},{"startTime":2231.959,"endTime":2237.749,"body":"of messages and hit the, or click all"},{"startTime":2231.959,"endTime":2237.749,"body":"messages and hit the mark as read button."},{"startTime":2238.249,"endTime":2240.149,"body":"It was just a big button"},{"startTime":2238.249,"endTime":2240.149,"body":"that says Mark as read."},{"startTime":2240.739,"endTime":2242.689,"body":"And like they don't have"},{"startTime":2240.739,"endTime":2242.689,"body":"that button anymore."},{"startTime":2242.749,"endTime":2243.829,"body":"Like, doesn't exist anymore."},{"startTime":2244.189,"endTime":2244.369,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2244.374,"endTime":2247.879,"body":"I think, I think you can go to the"},{"startTime":2244.374,"endTime":2247.879,"body":"vertical elipsis and hit mark as read now."},{"startTime":2248.209,"endTime":2248.479,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2248.779,"endTime":2250.399,"body":"But there is, there is"},{"startTime":2248.779,"endTime":2250.399,"body":"that capability now."},{"startTime":2250.619,"endTime":2253.699,"body":"You can't add it as a"},{"startTime":2250.619,"endTime":2253.699,"body":"quick function button."},{"startTime":2253.949,"endTime":2258.254,"body":"In terms of having features"},{"startTime":2253.949,"endTime":2258.254,"body":"available to your customers Yeah."},{"startTime":2258.564,"endTime":2262.194,"body":"On a need basis or on a will basis,"},{"startTime":2258.564,"endTime":2262.194,"body":"I guess probably the best thing"},{"startTime":2262.194,"endTime":2263.604,"body":"to do is the example you cited."},{"startTime":2263.694,"endTime":2266.394,"body":"You know, let the users"},{"startTime":2263.694,"endTime":2266.394,"body":"pull those in, right?"},{"startTime":2266.514,"endTime":2270.034,"body":"So give them the switch and"},{"startTime":2266.514,"endTime":2270.034,"body":"say, Right, try this out."},{"startTime":2270.124,"endTime":2270.214,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2270.219,"endTime":2273.394,"body":"If it doesn't work, you can easily"},{"startTime":2270.219,"endTime":2273.394,"body":"switch it off and give us feedback."},{"startTime":2273.394,"endTime":2276.324,"body":"Or you could get that"},{"startTime":2273.394,"endTime":2276.324,"body":"feedback integrate that in."},{"startTime":2276.329,"endTime":2276.744,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2276.829,"endTime":2280.644,"body":". So whether it works or not, you get"},{"startTime":2276.829,"endTime":2280.644,"body":"feedback and if they turn it off right"},{"startTime":2280.644,"endTime":2282.354,"body":"away, well that's a signal right there."},{"startTime":2282.714,"endTime":2282.954,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2283.014,"endTime":2286.714,"body":"So there's all these things that"},{"startTime":2283.014,"endTime":2286.714,"body":"you can use to your advantage."},{"startTime":2286.744,"endTime":2286.834,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2287.114,"endTime":2287.194,"body":". Right."},{"startTime":2287.434,"endTime":2291.364,"body":"I do think that, Bluegreen deployments"},{"startTime":2287.434,"endTime":2291.364,"body":"have an excellent,  potential here, right?"},{"startTime":2291.364,"endTime":2296.849,"body":"Because as far as the user's concerned,"},{"startTime":2291.364,"endTime":2296.849,"body":"Everything is just in production, and then"},{"startTime":2296.849,"endTime":2301.339,"body":"they turn something on, and if it doesn't"},{"startTime":2296.849,"endTime":2301.339,"body":"work, they turn it off and you're getting"},{"startTime":2301.339,"endTime":2305.719,"body":"the feedback how it doesn't get any more"},{"startTime":2301.339,"endTime":2305.719,"body":"real time than that with real customers."},{"startTime":2305.869,"endTime":2308.389,"body":"Now of course, you want to"},{"startTime":2305.869,"endTime":2308.389,"body":"narrow down the scope of that."},{"startTime":2308.394,"endTime":2311.959,"body":"You don't want that open globally to"},{"startTime":2308.394,"endTime":2311.959,"body":"everybody if it's a global product."},{"startTime":2312.379,"endTime":2314.559,"body":"But,  these techniques are available."},{"startTime":2314.769,"endTime":2318.959,"body":"Maybe your teams then perhaps need  some"},{"startTime":2314.769,"endTime":2318.959,"body":"training on how to use these things if"},{"startTime":2318.959,"endTime":2320.549,"body":"they, if they're not aware of it mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2320.859,"endTime":2322.299,"body":"or if they haven't used them before."},{"startTime":2322.549,"endTime":2326.809,"body":"What if I come to you as the"},{"startTime":2322.549,"endTime":2326.809,"body":"newly minted product manager"},{"startTime":2327.309,"endTime":2328.829,"body":"and, you don't have a team yet?"},{"startTime":2329.329,"endTime":2330.919,"body":"Well where would you go from there?"},{"startTime":2330.919,"endTime":2334.159,"body":"Like, Hey, oh, you're the"},{"startTime":2330.919,"endTime":2334.159,"body":"product manager for Product X."},{"startTime":2334.489,"endTime":2336.529,"body":"Like, go figure it out."},{"startTime":2336.779,"endTime":2340.224,"body":"And I I, I'm, I'm the head of the business"},{"startTime":2336.779,"endTime":2340.224,"body":"unit, I could assemble a team for you."},{"startTime":2340.374,"endTime":2343.584,"body":"I can go around the business and be"},{"startTime":2340.374,"endTime":2343.584,"body":"like, Gimme developer X, gimme developer."},{"startTime":2343.644,"endTime":2345.384,"body":"But I'm not going about it that way."},{"startTime":2345.389,"endTime":2348.504,"body":"I'm saying, Hey, you"},{"startTime":2345.389,"endTime":2348.504,"body":"can speak with my name."},{"startTime":2348.509,"endTime":2350.034,"body":"You're empowered to get a team."},{"startTime":2350.034,"endTime":2353.734,"body":"Whatever you need, or if you don't want"},{"startTime":2350.034,"endTime":2353.734,"body":"to touch anybody and you don't think we"},{"startTime":2353.734,"endTime":2356.044,"body":"have the talent to do it, go hire people."},{"startTime":2356.044,"endTime":2357.214,"body":"Like you have a budget now."},{"startTime":2357.494,"endTime":2359.299,"body":"I guess I'll, I'll give"},{"startTime":2357.494,"endTime":2359.299,"body":"my guidelines to you home."},{"startTime":2359.299,"endTime":2359.929,"body":"Here we go."},{"startTime":2360.329,"endTime":2362.159,"body":", thanks for being the new product manager."},{"startTime":2362.239,"endTime":2364.069,"body":", I'm gonna give you a bunch"},{"startTime":2362.239,"endTime":2364.069,"body":"of money with your new title."},{"startTime":2364.569,"endTime":2365.319,"body":"look nice."},{"startTime":2365.319,"endTime":2365.529,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2365.529,"endTime":2368.229,"body":"Think about that when we're talking"},{"startTime":2365.529,"endTime":2368.229,"body":"about, We haven't talked about that."},{"startTime":2368.319,"endTime":2369.249,"body":"No, that's, And we won't."},{"startTime":2369.249,"endTime":2369.639,"body":"We won't."},{"startTime":2369.639,"endTime":2370.839,"body":"Cause it's not in this smart guest."},{"startTime":2370.869,"endTime":2371.079,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2371.399,"endTime":2375.329,"body":"Look, listen I think, I think that"},{"startTime":2371.399,"endTime":2375.329,"body":"we have the developers in-house"},{"startTime":2375.329,"endTime":2376.949,"body":"to, to deal with your initiative."},{"startTime":2377.099,"endTime":2381.074,"body":"So, I mean, Think about the people"},{"startTime":2377.099,"endTime":2381.074,"body":"in your house first, but  if you need"},{"startTime":2381.074,"endTime":2382.424,"body":"to hire outside, that's fine too."},{"startTime":2382.424,"endTime":2384.914,"body":"But come back with your"},{"startTime":2382.424,"endTime":2384.914,"body":"plan to meet tomorrow."},{"startTime":2385.124,"endTime":2388.844,"body":"You know, take the rest of the"},{"startTime":2385.124,"endTime":2388.844,"body":"day and tomorrow take 24 hours."},{"startTime":2388.844,"endTime":2389.924,"body":"Come back to me with your plan."},{"startTime":2390.074,"endTime":2391.454,"body":"Talk to whoever you need to do."},{"startTime":2391.664,"endTime":2392.804,"body":"You know, invoke my name."},{"startTime":2392.864,"endTime":2394.004,"body":"This is the top priority."},{"startTime":2394.194,"endTime":2396.234,"body":"I want your plan by tomorrow, 24 hours."},{"startTime":2396.234,"endTime":2396.804,"body":"I want your plan."},{"startTime":2396.984,"endTime":2398.334,"body":"What, where you go from here?"},{"startTime":2398.424,"endTime":2398.694,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2398.694,"endTime":2399.504,"body":"It's pretty aggressive."},{"startTime":2399.504,"endTime":2400.374,"body":"to go back with a plan."},{"startTime":2400.764,"endTime":2401.844,"body":"I'm, I'm an aggressive guy."},{"startTime":2401.844,"endTime":2402.354,"body":"Yeah, you are."},{"startTime":2402.354,"endTime":2403.164,"body":"You're an aggressive guy."},{"startTime":2403.169,"endTime":2405.744,"body":"So one of the first things I would do"},{"startTime":2403.169,"endTime":2405.744,"body":"is just sit there and I'm aggressive,"},{"startTime":2405.749,"endTime":2409.634,"body":"try and fi try and figure out, once"},{"startTime":2405.749,"endTime":2409.634,"body":"I've figured out the what, which"},{"startTime":2409.634,"endTime":2411.404,"body":"might take me 24 hours by the way."},{"startTime":2411.484,"endTime":2415.864,"body":"then I would partner with somebody"},{"startTime":2411.484,"endTime":2415.864,"body":"at a higher level, not just a"},{"startTime":2415.864,"endTime":2417.094,"body":"developer or anything like that."},{"startTime":2417.094,"endTime":2420.574,"body":"Maybe a, an enterprise architect, uhhuh,"},{"startTime":2417.094,"endTime":2420.574,"body":"somebody like that to sit down and"},{"startTime":2420.574,"endTime":2422.344,"body":"say, This is what we're trying to do."},{"startTime":2422.524,"endTime":2422.704,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2422.734,"endTime":2423.504,"body":"You tell."},{"startTime":2424.004,"endTime":2427.364,"body":"What technologies we need that"},{"startTime":2424.004,"endTime":2427.364,"body":"will drive the discussion on the"},{"startTime":2427.364,"endTime":2429.344,"body":"capabilities and, and who do we need?"},{"startTime":2429.764,"endTime":2431.534,"body":"Do we then have those in house or not?"},{"startTime":2432.014,"endTime":2433.664,"body":"We have some in house, some not."},{"startTime":2433.669,"endTime":2435.014,"body":"Okay, well what do we need?"},{"startTime":2435.044,"endTime":2435.344,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2435.344,"endTime":2437.594,"body":"Do we just need somebody in"},{"startTime":2435.344,"endTime":2437.594,"body":"for a short period of time?"},{"startTime":2437.834,"endTime":2439.694,"body":"Do we need to go hire somebody, et cetera."},{"startTime":2439.944,"endTime":2443.934,"body":", so I would take that approach"},{"startTime":2439.944,"endTime":2443.934,"body":"and the 24 hour plan that I would"},{"startTime":2443.934,"endTime":2445.194,"body":"have would be super high level."},{"startTime":2445.194,"endTime":2449.904,"body":"It would be I met with Mary over here"},{"startTime":2445.194,"endTime":2449.904,"body":"as our enterprise architect, and we sat"},{"startTime":2449.904,"endTime":2452.124,"body":"down and we sketched out, these things."},{"startTime":2452.344,"endTime":2453.959,"body":"And this is the direction we're going in."},{"startTime":2454.049,"endTime":2454.769,"body":"That's my plan."},{"startTime":2454.769,"endTime":2454.829,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2455.019,"endTime":2455.299,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2455.304,"endTime":2457.769,"body":"And I need some more time to"},{"startTime":2455.304,"endTime":2457.769,"body":"detail that out, some more."},{"startTime":2458.069,"endTime":2459.599,"body":"So I would kind of do it that way."},{"startTime":2459.659,"endTime":2459.809,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2460.309,"endTime":2464.539,"body":"You're assuming here that by giving"},{"startTime":2460.309,"endTime":2464.539,"body":"me money, I am not the expert here."},{"startTime":2464.599,"endTime":2464.899,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2464.929,"endTime":2467.059,"body":"I'm not, I mean, technical"},{"startTime":2464.929,"endTime":2467.059,"body":"expert, so I'm gonna have to"},{"startTime":2467.059,"endTime":2468.349,"body":"partner with somebody, right?"},{"startTime":2468.849,"endTime":2469.029,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2469.029,"endTime":2470.709,"body":"Well that, I mean, that's"},{"startTime":2469.029,"endTime":2470.709,"body":"the core of my question."},{"startTime":2470.714,"endTime":2473.469,"body":"Like I, I, leadership, I."},{"startTime":2473.969,"endTime":2475.829,"body":", I am already assuming that"},{"startTime":2473.969,"endTime":2475.829,"body":"you're not the expert."},{"startTime":2475.859,"endTime":2476.069,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2476.069,"endTime":2479.239,"body":"You have to reach out to people and,"},{"startTime":2476.069,"endTime":2479.239,"body":"but, I'm gonna send a blast out or a"},{"startTime":2479.239,"endTime":2482.749,"body":"message or whatever to my leadership"},{"startTime":2479.239,"endTime":2482.749,"body":"team, department heads, whatever it is"},{"startTime":2482.754,"endTime":2487.189,"body":"I'm gonna send up, I'm gonna send out"},{"startTime":2482.754,"endTime":2487.189,"body":"a blast letting them know like, Hey,"},{"startTime":2487.689,"endTime":2491.009,"body":"I have asked Om to assemble this team."},{"startTime":2491.219,"endTime":2492.599,"body":"He's gonna be coming to you guys."},{"startTime":2492.719,"endTime":2494.069,"body":"Clear your schedule."},{"startTime":2494.159,"endTime":2495.689,"body":"There's nothing more important than this."},{"startTime":2495.899,"endTime":2496.259,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2496.314,"endTime":2500.354,"body":"I'm also assuming I gave you some lead"},{"startTime":2496.314,"endTime":2500.354,"body":"time to figure out, like so you can come"},{"startTime":2500.354,"endTime":2502.484,"body":"into my office, we can figure out the why."},{"startTime":2502.664,"endTime":2505.244,"body":"We can figure out what the"},{"startTime":2502.664,"endTime":2505.244,"body":"product vision's gonna be."},{"startTime":2505.244,"endTime":2505.304,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2505.354,"endTime":2509.334,"body":"If it's not just me, sit down with maybe"},{"startTime":2505.354,"endTime":2509.334,"body":"the members of the enabling team, again,"},{"startTime":2509.334,"endTime":2511.404,"body":"assuming we're using Team Topologies."},{"startTime":2511.409,"endTime":2513.624,"body":"We did, we did a whole"},{"startTime":2511.409,"endTime":2513.624,"body":"podcast on Team Topologies."},{"startTime":2513.624,"endTime":2514.434,"body":"You should go watch it."},{"startTime":2514.434,"endTime":2515.484,"body":"I'll mark it as a card."},{"startTime":2515.664,"endTime":2519.889,"body":"I think it'll show up over o's"},{"startTime":2515.664,"endTime":2519.889,"body":"head and yeah, somewhere there."},{"startTime":2520.359,"endTime":2524.619,"body":"The members of the enabling team"},{"startTime":2520.359,"endTime":2524.619,"body":"will help you ba basically my, my"},{"startTime":2525.119,"endTime":2526.709,"body":"leadership in the organization."},{"startTime":2526.739,"endTime":2529.109,"body":"Like they could be technical"},{"startTime":2526.739,"endTime":2529.109,"body":"leadership, meaning for sure"},{"startTime":2529.109,"endTime":2530.339,"body":"members of the enabling team, right?"},{"startTime":2530.369,"endTime":2530.609,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2531.039,"endTime":2534.279,"body":"Technical leadership and"},{"startTime":2531.039,"endTime":2534.279,"body":"leadership of the organization."},{"startTime":2534.399,"endTime":2538.599,"body":"We will work with you everything you need,"},{"startTime":2534.399,"endTime":2538.599,"body":"because I, the leader in the organization"},{"startTime":2538.899,"endTime":2542.979,"body":"am sending out this blast that says,"},{"startTime":2538.899,"endTime":2542.979,"body":"Hey, only's not the product manager."},{"startTime":2543.159,"endTime":2544.359,"body":"Everybody work with him."},{"startTime":2544.629,"endTime":2546.309,"body":"You know, he has some things."},{"startTime":2546.519,"endTime":2548.259,"body":"I'm making it a priority"},{"startTime":2546.519,"endTime":2548.259,"body":"for him to launch."},{"startTime":2548.759,"endTime":2553.649,"body":"I want all blockers out of his way again,"},{"startTime":2548.759,"endTime":2553.649,"body":"like I the leader in the organization"},{"startTime":2553.889,"endTime":2557.099,"body":"and now being the scrum master of"},{"startTime":2553.889,"endTime":2557.099,"body":"like, all blockers are outta your way."},{"startTime":2557.189,"endTime":2557.369,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2557.429,"endTime":2561.269,"body":"I don't know why it's such, I don't know"},{"startTime":2557.429,"endTime":2561.269,"body":"why it's so like amazing of a concept."},{"startTime":2561.769,"endTime":2563.629,"body":"Well, that's empowerment for you, right?"},{"startTime":2563.629,"endTime":2566.329,"body":"There are servant leaders"},{"startTime":2563.629,"endTime":2566.329,"body":"that can move blockers."},{"startTime":2566.329,"endTime":2568.369,"body":"That's so, Oh, my mind is blown."},{"startTime":2568.719,"endTime":2569.769,"body":"so I don't know if I'll leave that area."},{"startTime":2569.859,"endTime":2570.549,"body":"No, don't leave that."},{"startTime":2570.549,"endTime":2570.939,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2571.439,"endTime":2575.869,"body":"But yeah, so I mean, look, once I've"},{"startTime":2571.439,"endTime":2575.869,"body":"got that kind of a, a green light, okay."},{"startTime":2576.369,"endTime":2579.039,"body":"The first thing again that maybe"},{"startTime":2576.369,"endTime":2579.039,"body":"this is the first, first thing"},{"startTime":2579.039,"endTime":2582.039,"body":"or the next first thing, but I"},{"startTime":2579.039,"endTime":2582.039,"body":"would form a coalition, right?"},{"startTime":2582.049,"endTime":2582.289,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2582.294,"endTime":2586.359,"body":"So I would go out and start getting to"},{"startTime":2582.294,"endTime":2586.359,"body":"these people saying, You've got the email."},{"startTime":2586.539,"endTime":2588.639,"body":"Let's get together and start ideating."},{"startTime":2588.699,"endTime":2589.659,"body":"What's our next step?"},{"startTime":2589.729,"endTime":2590.049,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2590.049,"endTime":2590.449,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2590.919,"endTime":2595.689,"body":"So now what I'm saying is, instead of"},{"startTime":2590.919,"endTime":2595.689,"body":"sitting down in my office, in my cubicle,"},{"startTime":2596.139,"endTime":2602.379,"body":"sketching out stuff, ideating by myself,"},{"startTime":2596.139,"endTime":2602.379,"body":"I, I want a force multiplier here and"},{"startTime":2602.379,"endTime":2604.239,"body":"get some other brain power in there."},{"startTime":2604.329,"endTime":2605.799,"body":"People that actually might"},{"startTime":2604.329,"endTime":2605.799,"body":"know what they're doing."},{"startTime":2606.009,"endTime":2606.289,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2606.294,"endTime":2608.559,"body":"Sit down and orchestrate"},{"startTime":2606.294,"endTime":2608.559,"body":"that conversation."},{"startTime":2608.559,"endTime":2608.889,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2608.889,"endTime":2610.989,"body":"And see what comes out of that."},{"startTime":2611.244,"endTime":2613.074,"body":"I don't know why I would"},{"startTime":2611.244,"endTime":2613.074,"body":"do it any other way."},{"startTime":2613.114,"endTime":2615.714,"body":"I wouldn't, Well, I, I mean, I"},{"startTime":2613.114,"endTime":2615.714,"body":"can think of a million reasons."},{"startTime":2615.714,"endTime":2622.864,"body":"I can think of the I think immediately of"},{"startTime":2615.714,"endTime":2622.864,"body":"the product owner slash manager without a"},{"startTime":2622.864,"endTime":2628.034,"body":"scrum master who's like,  I'm don't wanna"},{"startTime":2622.864,"endTime":2628.034,"body":"say they were afraid to go out into the"},{"startTime":2628.034,"endTime":2634.394,"body":"organization, to go into like different"},{"startTime":2628.034,"endTime":2634.394,"body":"departments or reach out to different,"},{"startTime":2634.394,"endTime":2638.114,"body":"different places in the organization"},{"startTime":2634.394,"endTime":2638.114,"body":"that they have not worked within."},{"startTime":2638.324,"endTime":2642.484,"body":"We're talking about mainly development"},{"startTime":2638.324,"endTime":2642.484,"body":"concepts, but like, maybe the people you"},{"startTime":2642.484,"endTime":2644.164,"body":"need don't work on development teams."},{"startTime":2644.464,"endTime":2647.794,"body":"Maybe the, the subject matter experts"},{"startTime":2644.464,"endTime":2647.794,"body":"like going back earlier in this podcast"},{"startTime":2647.799,"endTime":2650.734,"body":"where we talk about like, Oh, I'm"},{"startTime":2647.799,"endTime":2650.734,"body":"working on software for registered"},{"startTime":2650.739,"endTime":2652.354,"body":"nurses or doctors, for example."},{"startTime":2652.354,"endTime":2655.534,"body":"Like, I gotta find a doctor you"},{"startTime":2652.354,"endTime":2655.534,"body":"do in the organization and they"},{"startTime":2655.539,"endTime":2656.584,"body":"need to be part of my team."},{"startTime":2656.584,"endTime":2657.544,"body":"Now you do."},{"startTime":2657.574,"endTime":2661.234,"body":"whatever your day job is as"},{"startTime":2657.574,"endTime":2661.234,"body":"a doctor, I also need you."},{"startTime":2661.734,"endTime":2665.244,"body":"To serve my team, I need you to"},{"startTime":2661.734,"endTime":2665.244,"body":"basically be the subject matter"},{"startTime":2665.244,"endTime":2667.464,"body":"expert that my team has access to."},{"startTime":2667.764,"endTime":2672.584,"body":"Where we're your pseudo part of my team,"},{"startTime":2667.764,"endTime":2672.584,"body":"but also pseudo a a user stakeholder."},{"startTime":2672.764,"endTime":2673.184,"body":"You know that?"},{"startTime":2673.184,"endTime":2673.454,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2673.459,"endTime":2675.914,"body":"That's the, that's the"},{"startTime":2673.459,"endTime":2675.914,"body":"conversation that happens in"},{"startTime":2675.919,"endTime":2677.414,"body":"that coalition that I mentioned."},{"startTime":2677.419,"endTime":2679.684,"body":"We haven't even got to"},{"startTime":2677.419,"endTime":2679.684,"body":"Scrum Masters yet, right?"},{"startTime":2679.684,"endTime":2679.954,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2679.954,"endTime":2682.354,"body":"We're talking about what is"},{"startTime":2679.954,"endTime":2682.354,"body":"it that we're doing and, and"},{"startTime":2682.354,"endTime":2683.944,"body":"what's the next, who do we need?"},{"startTime":2684.244,"endTime":2685.834,"body":"Well, we need to your point, right?"},{"startTime":2685.839,"endTime":2688.234,"body":"We need somebody who can give us feedback."},{"startTime":2688.234,"endTime":2692.684,"body":"So if you're building software for"},{"startTime":2688.234,"endTime":2692.684,"body":"medical use, we need that expertise,"},{"startTime":2692.714,"endTime":2695.919,"body":"so whether it's a doctor, whether"},{"startTime":2692.714,"endTime":2695.919,"body":"it's a nurse, however we need, Yeah."},{"startTime":2696.419,"endTime":2702.299,"body":"And so the point of it is that this need"},{"startTime":2696.419,"endTime":2702.299,"body":"isn't something that I'm saying we need."},{"startTime":2702.329,"endTime":2705.059,"body":"It's something that we"},{"startTime":2702.329,"endTime":2705.059,"body":"are coming up with, Right."},{"startTime":2705.059,"endTime":2706.589,"body":"That coalition is coming up with."},{"startTime":2706.589,"endTime":2706.679,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2707.069,"endTime":2710.819,"body":"And then the next step after that"},{"startTime":2707.069,"endTime":2710.819,"body":"would be to go get those people right."},{"startTime":2710.849,"endTime":2711.419,"body":"That you need."},{"startTime":2711.709,"endTime":2718.159,"body":"I feel like we can box this entire"},{"startTime":2711.709,"endTime":2718.159,"body":"podcast and, and do it completely again"},{"startTime":2718.589,"endTime":2722.454,"body":"from the perspective of, of maybe you"},{"startTime":2718.589,"endTime":2722.454,"body":"are a scrum master and the organization"},{"startTime":2722.454,"endTime":2724.314,"body":"comes to you and says, Hey, we."},{"startTime":2724.814,"endTime":2726.194,"body":"Spin off this new initiative."},{"startTime":2726.694,"endTime":2727.974,"body":"Ooh, wow."},{"startTime":2727.974,"endTime":2729.804,"body":"That's, that's gonna be"},{"startTime":2727.974,"endTime":2729.804,"body":"an interesting podcast."},{"startTime":2729.904,"endTime":2735.134,"body":"What I was going is, I, in the leadership"},{"startTime":2729.904,"endTime":2735.134,"body":"have delegated to my teams, Okay,"},{"startTime":2735.134,"endTime":2738.404,"body":"you're gonna use Scrum and you're"},{"startTime":2735.134,"endTime":2738.404,"body":"gonna somehow scale Scrum or whatever."},{"startTime":2738.404,"endTime":2741.794,"body":"Like, okay, I don't, I don't really"},{"startTime":2738.404,"endTime":2741.794,"body":"care as long as my stuff's getting done."},{"startTime":2742.034,"endTime":2742.304,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2742.364,"endTime":2742.664,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2742.904,"endTime":2743.744,"body":"I'm not an expert."},{"startTime":2743.744,"endTime":2745.364,"body":"I don't know how to develop products."},{"startTime":2745.724,"endTime":2749.194,"body":"I, I barely have expertise in the domain."},{"startTime":2749.224,"endTime":2751.834,"body":"Then like, I don't know even"},{"startTime":2749.224,"endTime":2751.834,"body":"know why I'm a leadership of this"},{"startTime":2751.834,"endTime":2753.454,"body":"organization , honestly, I have no idea."},{"startTime":2753.724,"endTime":2758.044,"body":"But, but the point is like, I'm"},{"startTime":2753.724,"endTime":2758.044,"body":"not an expert in the subject matter"},{"startTime":2758.544,"endTime":2762.624,"body":"and I'm not an expert in Agile or"},{"startTime":2758.544,"endTime":2762.624,"body":"scaling or software development."},{"startTime":2762.664,"endTime":2765.164,"body":"Cuz organizations have"},{"startTime":2762.664,"endTime":2765.164,"body":"delivery leads, right?."},{"startTime":2765.504,"endTime":2769.069,"body":"So I'm gonna pull my, one of my delivery"},{"startTime":2765.504,"endTime":2769.069,"body":"leads and say, Hey, I think we need a"},{"startTime":2769.069,"endTime":2774.699,"body":"new team because this product, this,"},{"startTime":2769.069,"endTime":2774.699,"body":"this product investment seems completely"},{"startTime":2774.699,"endTime":2776.019,"body":"different than the rest of my pro."},{"startTime":2776.049,"endTime":2781.829,"body":"So you as a delivery lead, can you go"},{"startTime":2776.049,"endTime":2781.829,"body":"out into the organization and figure out"},{"startTime":2781.834,"endTime":2786.749,"body":"who should be my product manager, and"},{"startTime":2781.834,"endTime":2786.749,"body":"then figure out how I build my team and"},{"startTime":2786.749,"endTime":2789.299,"body":"then  go deal with Jira to make it happen."},{"startTime":2790.139,"endTime":2793.499,"body":"Go deal with Jira to make it happen"},{"startTime":2790.139,"endTime":2793.499,"body":"and go deal with, talking through"},{"startTime":2793.499,"endTime":2796.499,"body":"whether they should be Kaban or"},{"startTime":2793.499,"endTime":2796.499,"body":"Sprint or  a Scrum or whatever."},{"startTime":2796.619,"endTime":2796.709,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2796.709,"endTime":2799.169,"body":"And whatever these other terms"},{"startTime":2796.709,"endTime":2799.169,"body":"I don't like I as leadership"},{"startTime":2799.219,"endTime":2800.659,"body":"I'm barely involved in this."},{"startTime":2800.659,"endTime":2802.579,"body":"I really don't want to be in the details."},{"startTime":2802.639,"endTime":2805.309,"body":"You know, that reframing helps"},{"startTime":2802.639,"endTime":2805.309,"body":"because leadership shouldn't even"},{"startTime":2805.309,"endTime":2806.839,"body":"say we decided we're doing Scrum."},{"startTime":2806.839,"endTime":2807.739,"body":"That's up to the team."},{"startTime":2807.799,"endTime":2808.789,"body":"They should just say, Yeah, right."},{"startTime":2808.819,"endTime":2810.469,"body":"Okay, here's what we want done."},{"startTime":2810.499,"endTime":2812.269,"body":"You go figure out how to do this stuff."},{"startTime":2812.459,"endTime":2815.819,"body":"The start of this podcast was I'm"},{"startTime":2812.459,"endTime":2815.819,"body":"going to my product manager and saying,"},{"startTime":2815.819,"endTime":2818.069,"body":"Hey, you are now the product manager."},{"startTime":2818.159,"endTime":2819.989,"body":"Go like, you're empowered."},{"startTime":2820.489,"endTime":2821.599,"body":"I trust you."},{"startTime":2821.809,"endTime":2822.529,"body":"Whatever."},{"startTime":2822.589,"endTime":2824.509,"body":"Go and like figuring out your way."},{"startTime":2824.689,"endTime":2828.739,"body":"Now I'm kind of pivoting into, I'm"},{"startTime":2824.689,"endTime":2828.739,"body":"going to the scrum master and saying,"},{"startTime":2828.744,"endTime":2832.629,"body":"Hey, I wanna do all this product stuff"},{"startTime":2828.744,"endTime":2832.629,"body":"and all this team stuff together."},{"startTime":2832.629,"endTime":2833.559,"body":"I know I wanna do."},{"startTime":2833.869,"endTime":2835.279,"body":", Now you as a Scrum Master go."},{"startTime":2835.549,"endTime":2840.499,"body":"I think this is the perfect cutoff time"},{"startTime":2835.549,"endTime":2840.499,"body":"to say that is a different podcast."},{"startTime":2840.499,"endTime":2840.919,"body":"It's, Yeah."},{"startTime":2840.979,"endTime":2841.219,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2841.269,"endTime":2846.129,"body":"In the start of this podcast, the"},{"startTime":2841.269,"endTime":2846.129,"body":"leader delegated to the product owner."},{"startTime":2846.209,"endTime":2846.539,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2846.749,"endTime":2851.549,"body":"Go do this initiative, build the"},{"startTime":2846.749,"endTime":2851.549,"body":"team, work through all this, build"},{"startTime":2851.549,"endTime":2854.639,"body":"a vision, come up with it, do"},{"startTime":2851.549,"endTime":2854.639,"body":"the research, build a user group."},{"startTime":2855.139,"endTime":2856.009,"body":"Build a product."},{"startTime":2856.309,"endTime":2858.529,"body":"We, we barely talked about"},{"startTime":2856.309,"endTime":2858.529,"body":"building a product, right?"},{"startTime":2858.529,"endTime":2859.099,"body":"In this podcast."},{"startTime":2859.349,"endTime":2862.169,"body":"and now I'm pivoting and saying"},{"startTime":2859.349,"endTime":2862.169,"body":"like, well, now we're starting"},{"startTime":2862.169,"endTime":2868.529,"body":"with the scrum master to say, peel"},{"startTime":2862.169,"endTime":2868.529,"body":"this product off of the existing."},{"startTime":2869.029,"endTime":2873.719,"body":"Development team and effort, So basically"},{"startTime":2869.029,"endTime":2873.719,"body":"we're now in the advanced portion of"},{"startTime":2873.719,"endTime":2877.819,"body":"this podcast, which is not gonna be"},{"startTime":2873.719,"endTime":2877.819,"body":"part of this podcast where leadership"},{"startTime":2877.819,"endTime":2883.719,"body":"is delegating the responsibility"},{"startTime":2877.819,"endTime":2883.719,"body":"of successfully peeling off the"},{"startTime":2883.719,"endTime":2885.159,"body":"product from the rest of the product."},{"startTime":2885.249,"endTime":2885.309,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2885.809,"endTime":2889.799,"body":"To the scrum master, aka delivery"},{"startTime":2885.809,"endTime":2889.799,"body":"lead, aka, whatever you wanna call it."},{"startTime":2889.799,"endTime":2890.429,"body":"Right, Right."},{"startTime":2890.819,"endTime":2894.869,"body":"And now that becomes, how do you do it"},{"startTime":2890.819,"endTime":2894.869,"body":"when you've been delegated this task"},{"startTime":2894.929,"endTime":2898.199,"body":"and you are not the product person"},{"startTime":2894.929,"endTime":2898.199,"body":"and you're not the development team"},{"startTime":2898.204,"endTime":2899.429,"body":"members and you're not, whatever."},{"startTime":2899.669,"endTime":2902.009,"body":"I don't, I feel you could"},{"startTime":2899.669,"endTime":2902.009,"body":"still be successful."},{"startTime":2902.014,"endTime":2904.829,"body":"You, you can different dynamics"},{"startTime":2902.014,"endTime":2904.829,"body":"though, but as you said, that"},{"startTime":2904.829,"endTime":2905.939,"body":"could be a different podcast."},{"startTime":2905.939,"endTime":2906.899,"body":"Different podcast, right?"},{"startTime":2906.959,"endTime":2907.169,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2907.669,"endTime":2910.879,"body":"All right everybody, thanks for"},{"startTime":2907.669,"endTime":2910.879,"body":"staying with us this far and let"},{"startTime":2910.879,"endTime":2913.099,"body":"us know what you think down below."},{"startTime":2913.489,"endTime":2914.689,"body":"Smash that like button."}]}