{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.0,"endTime":2.52,"body":"Product management is a funny discipline."},{"startTime":2.64,"endTime":4.14,"body":"We're gonna look at a post today"},{"startTime":4.257,"endTime":4.917,"body":"a week ago."},{"startTime":4.917,"endTime":11.146,"body":"Somebody illuminated us on product"},{"startTime":4.917,"endTime":11.146,"body":"management and how they've become"},{"startTime":11.456,"endTime":17.466,"body":"happy as a result of essentially waving"},{"startTime":11.456,"endTime":17.466,"body":"the white flag and saying, I succumb!"},{"startTime":17.521,"endTime":17.996,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":18.046,"endTime":18.286,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":18.286,"endTime":18.556,"body":"Let's see."},{"startTime":18.766,"endTime":20.776,"body":"How can you be happy"},{"startTime":18.766,"endTime":20.776,"body":"in product management?"},{"startTime":20.776,"endTime":21.496,"body":"Let's look at that today."},{"startTime":22.156,"endTime":26.926,"body":", Let's look at, one person's, , method so"},{"startTime":22.156,"endTime":26.926,"body":"there was this post on product management"},{"startTime":26.926,"endTime":28.906,"body":"that's been making its rounds on LinkedIn."},{"startTime":28.986,"endTime":32.986,"body":"here's what the post says, the"},{"startTime":28.986,"endTime":32.986,"body":"title reads As a product manager,"},{"startTime":33.106,"endTime":36.676,"body":"I stopped doing product management"},{"startTime":33.106,"endTime":36.676,"body":"and became happier as a result."},{"startTime":36.803,"endTime":40.313,"body":"So anybody who's working product"},{"startTime":36.803,"endTime":40.313,"body":"management would definitely be drawn"},{"startTime":40.313,"endTime":42.973,"body":"to this, like a, a bee to a flower."},{"startTime":43.073,"endTime":47.003,"body":"Like, Okay, this guy's saying"},{"startTime":43.073,"endTime":47.003,"body":"he became happy by stopping."},{"startTime":47.753,"endTime":48.443,"body":"What he was doing."},{"startTime":48.503,"endTime":49.465,"body":"All right here, product management."},{"startTime":49.515,"endTime":52.655,"body":"I became enamored with product management"},{"startTime":49.515,"endTime":52.655,"body":"after reading inspired by Marty Cagan"},{"startTime":52.725,"endTime":58.155,"body":"and drinking all the Kool-Aid like"},{"startTime":52.725,"endTime":58.155,"body":"continuous discovery habits, et cetera."},{"startTime":58.395,"endTime":60.465,"body":"That is an interesting"},{"startTime":58.395,"endTime":60.465,"body":"sentence because Right."},{"startTime":60.515,"endTime":66.075,"body":"He drops in Marty Cagan and his book, and"},{"startTime":60.515,"endTime":66.075,"body":"then he says, Kool-Aid, and so you look at"},{"startTime":66.075,"endTime":70.035,"body":"that and you go, So did you really become"},{"startTime":66.075,"endTime":70.035,"body":"enamored by that or did you just read"},{"startTime":70.035,"endTime":72.06,"body":"the book and say, nah, I don't like it."},{"startTime":72.57,"endTime":73.8,"body":"It obviously doesn't work."},{"startTime":73.95,"endTime":74.64,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":74.645,"endTime":75.69,"body":"Obviously it's cool."},{"startTime":75.69,"endTime":77.28,"body":"Product management"},{"startTime":75.69,"endTime":77.28,"body":"doesn't work here, right?"},{"startTime":77.28,"endTime":78.54,"body":"This is a continuation of a theme."},{"startTime":78.54,"endTime":80.185,"body":"Oh,  agile doesn't work here."},{"startTime":80.845,"endTime":81.085,"body":". Right?"},{"startTime":81.505,"endTime":83.245,"body":"That was our previous podcast."},{"startTime":83.305,"endTime":83.815,"body":"Everybody."},{"startTime":83.875,"endTime":86.695,"body":"Oh, oh, Product management"},{"startTime":83.875,"endTime":86.695,"body":"doesn't work here."},{"startTime":86.725,"endTime":87.175,"body":"What?"},{"startTime":87.415,"endTime":89.335,"body":"What a great idea for a podcast."},{"startTime":89.705,"endTime":90.515,"body":"It just doesn't work here."},{"startTime":90.665,"endTime":90.985,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":90.99,"endTime":91.79,"body":"Let's back to the article."},{"startTime":91.84,"endTime":95.44,"body":"I struggled for years trying to coach"},{"startTime":91.84,"endTime":95.44,"body":"my teams, my stakeholders, my leadership"},{"startTime":95.445,"endTime":99.7,"body":"on product management practices,"},{"startTime":95.445,"endTime":99.7,"body":"but mostly it fell into deaf ears."},{"startTime":99.7,"endTime":100.81,"body":"Shouldn't be onto deaf ears."},{"startTime":100.84,"endTime":100.96,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":100.96,"endTime":105.16,"body":"Onto the truth is people just"},{"startTime":100.96,"endTime":105.16,"body":"want to deliver features."},{"startTime":105.23,"endTime":109.59,"body":"Oh, I say so first of all,"},{"startTime":105.23,"endTime":109.59,"body":"okay,  as a product person,"},{"startTime":109.71,"endTime":111.0,"body":"they're saying that they try to."},{"startTime":111.99,"endTime":116.76,"body":"For quote unquote, many years,"},{"startTime":111.99,"endTime":116.76,"body":"and it fell onto deaf ears."},{"startTime":117.09,"endTime":120.66,"body":"To me that smacks of they"},{"startTime":117.09,"endTime":120.66,"body":"just did an art to coach."},{"startTime":120.66,"endTime":121.14,"body":"I'm sorry."},{"startTime":121.19,"endTime":124.58,"body":"You couldn't do that for many"},{"startTime":121.19,"endTime":124.58,"body":"years and not be effective."},{"startTime":125.51,"endTime":126.38,"body":"Change your tactics."},{"startTime":126.385,"endTime":127.22,"body":"Do something different."},{"startTime":127.49,"endTime":129.41,"body":"So that's the first thing"},{"startTime":127.49,"endTime":129.41,"body":"I wanna say about that."},{"startTime":129.41,"endTime":130.25,"body":"It's like Okay."},{"startTime":130.25,"endTime":131.12,"body":"Fell into deaf ears."},{"startTime":131.12,"endTime":131.66,"body":"So what do I do?"},{"startTime":131.96,"endTime":133.79,"body":"I'm just gonna give in I capitulate."},{"startTime":133.82,"endTime":134.45,"body":"Oh, sorry."},{"startTime":134.45,"endTime":135.08,"body":"I read that."},{"startTime":135.085,"endTime":138.245,"body":"And, I replaced all texts"},{"startTime":135.085,"endTime":138.245,"body":"of coach, , to communicate."},{"startTime":138.285,"endTime":141.075,"body":"And, , I read it as I'm,"},{"startTime":138.285,"endTime":141.075,"body":"I'm bad at communicating."},{"startTime":141.285,"endTime":144.885,"body":"And, , I just got outta college and"},{"startTime":141.285,"endTime":144.885,"body":"got this PM job at this FAANG company."},{"startTime":145.065,"endTime":145.155,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":145.395,"endTime":147.855,"body":". And I never really learned how"},{"startTime":145.395,"endTime":147.855,"body":"to communicate in all my life."},{"startTime":148.105,"endTime":151.94,"body":", and now that I'm in a job that"},{"startTime":148.105,"endTime":151.94,"body":"basically communication is the majority"},{"startTime":151.94,"endTime":155.7,"body":"of the job, I find that I'm bad at"},{"startTime":151.94,"endTime":155.7,"body":"communication but I'm good enough"},{"startTime":155.91,"endTime":159.615,"body":"in the role that the company wants"},{"startTime":155.91,"endTime":159.615,"body":"me at where  they don't wash me out."},{"startTime":159.825,"endTime":160.155,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":160.155,"endTime":164.655,"body":"I'm bad at communication and I'm not gonna"},{"startTime":160.155,"endTime":164.655,"body":"start improving now because like you said,"},{"startTime":164.715,"endTime":168.525,"body":"I'm working at a FAANG company and they're"},{"startTime":164.715,"endTime":168.525,"body":"keeping my pockets stuff full of cash."},{"startTime":168.945,"endTime":169.725,"body":"I just like it though."},{"startTime":169.725,"endTime":170.865,"body":"Oh, we haven't got to that yet."},{"startTime":170.87,"endTime":171.465,"body":"Hang on, hang on."},{"startTime":171.465,"endTime":172.185,"body":"Back to the article."},{"startTime":172.235,"endTime":176.915,"body":"So I stop doing product management"},{"startTime":172.235,"endTime":176.915,"body":"Executive A thinks we should build X."},{"startTime":177.155,"endTime":177.845,"body":"Yes, sir."},{"startTime":177.845,"endTime":178.505,"body":"Coming right up."},{"startTime":178.685,"endTime":180.935,"body":"Stakeholder B thinks we should do Y."},{"startTime":181.445,"endTime":182.105,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":182.105,"endTime":183.155,"body":"I'll put it in the backlog."},{"startTime":183.365,"endTime":187.865,"body":"I become a glorified high paid"},{"startTime":183.365,"endTime":187.865,"body":"order taker now, but I just don't"},{"startTime":187.865,"endTime":189.545,"body":"care anymore product discovery?"},{"startTime":189.755,"endTime":190.175,"body":"Ha!"},{"startTime":190.415,"endTime":193.055,"body":"Why do it if no one"},{"startTime":190.415,"endTime":193.055,"body":"understands the need for it?"},{"startTime":193.235,"endTime":196.205,"body":"I'll just deliver the feature"},{"startTime":193.235,"endTime":196.205,"body":"everyone thinks we should do."},{"startTime":196.285,"endTime":199.405,"body":"The next part is important to what"},{"startTime":196.285,"endTime":199.405,"body":"we're about to talk about the result."},{"startTime":199.81,"endTime":205.57,"body":"I'm much happier, less stressed, and I"},{"startTime":199.81,"endTime":205.57,"body":"can get my 200 K paycheck by coasting"},{"startTime":205.57,"endTime":207.34,"body":"and playing the corporate game."},{"startTime":207.61,"endTime":211.6,"body":"Great if you can do real product"},{"startTime":207.61,"endTime":211.6,"body":"management, but 97% of all companies"},{"startTime":211.6,"endTime":213.61,"body":"don't care about it nor understand it."},{"startTime":213.94,"endTime":217.75,"body":"Anyone else with a similar"},{"startTime":213.94,"endTime":217.75,"body":"epiphany or change like this?"},{"startTime":218.14,"endTime":218.83,"body":"Wow."},{"startTime":219.04,"endTime":219.4,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":219.4,"endTime":224.29,"body":"First of all, over to you, . I"},{"startTime":219.4,"endTime":224.29,"body":"want his job, . I really do."},{"startTime":224.69,"endTime":227.0,"body":"I'll take a huge pay raise right there."},{"startTime":227.0,"endTime":231.12,"body":"200 K and he's saying he"},{"startTime":227.0,"endTime":231.12,"body":"tried to influence teams."},{"startTime":231.14,"endTime":231.63,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":231.93,"endTime":232.92,"body":"And it didn't work."},{"startTime":232.92,"endTime":234.96,"body":"So he is giving, he is"},{"startTime":232.92,"endTime":234.96,"body":"giving up basically."},{"startTime":235.02,"endTime":235.35,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":235.41,"endTime":239.7,"body":"I think it's Google and Microsoft that"},{"startTime":235.41,"endTime":239.7,"body":"have pipelines from, Ivy League MBA"},{"startTime":239.73,"endTime":241.62,"body":"programs directly into their company."},{"startTime":241.8,"endTime":242.39,"body":"There are those."},{"startTime":242.39,"endTime":245.11,"body":"So there, there's a good chance"},{"startTime":242.39,"endTime":245.11,"body":"that this person, this is the"},{"startTime":245.11,"endTime":246.52,"body":"first job that they ever had."},{"startTime":246.52,"endTime":249.52,"body":"They, they basically were recruited"},{"startTime":246.52,"endTime":249.52,"body":"outta school through an MBA program"},{"startTime":249.55,"endTime":251.32,"body":"directly into product management."},{"startTime":251.53,"endTime":252.49,"body":"They read some books."},{"startTime":252.54,"endTime":255.6,"body":"They read some countercultural"},{"startTime":252.54,"endTime":255.6,"body":"stuff to what they learn in school."},{"startTime":255.9,"endTime":257.16,"body":"They were kind of excited by it."},{"startTime":257.16,"endTime":259.38,"body":"Had a good idea now that now"},{"startTime":257.16,"endTime":259.38,"body":"they're in the real world."},{"startTime":259.38,"endTime":260.91,"body":"Air quotes, real world air quotes."},{"startTime":260.97,"endTime":264.15,"body":"Cuz again, they work for"},{"startTime":260.97,"endTime":264.15,"body":"Microsoft or Google or whatever."},{"startTime":264.18,"endTime":265.53,"body":"So now they're in the real world."},{"startTime":265.56,"endTime":266.88,"body":"all that stuff's kind of hitting home."},{"startTime":266.88,"endTime":270.06,"body":"And listen, if I, if I could"},{"startTime":266.88,"endTime":270.06,"body":"get, if I could get outta college"},{"startTime":270.06,"endTime":273.63,"body":"and get a job making 200 k, I"},{"startTime":270.06,"endTime":273.63,"body":"might have this attitude as well."},{"startTime":274.09,"endTime":278.215,"body":"the younger me a few years ago,"},{"startTime":274.09,"endTime":278.215,"body":"A long time ago, actually, but"},{"startTime":278.215,"endTime":279.355,"body":"might have done the same thing."},{"startTime":279.355,"endTime":280.735,"body":"Said, This is cool."},{"startTime":280.735,"endTime":282.025,"body":"I can get paid all this money."},{"startTime":282.025,"endTime":282.985,"body":"I don't really care."},{"startTime":284.155,"endTime":287.635,"body":"But that wouldn't last too long because"},{"startTime":284.155,"endTime":287.635,"body":"you would get bored with yourself."},{"startTime":287.665,"endTime":290.545,"body":"you, if you're looking to make a"},{"startTime":287.665,"endTime":290.545,"body":"difference, a real difference, you'd"},{"startTime":290.545,"endTime":294.805,"body":"be like, Yeah, the money's good, but I"},{"startTime":290.545,"endTime":294.805,"body":"really don't have a purpose in my life."},{"startTime":295.075,"endTime":299.125,"body":"Where am I gonna do, I mean, am I just"},{"startTime":295.075,"endTime":299.125,"body":"going to make this check every month."},{"startTime":299.125,"endTime":303.515,"body":"So I would say, yeah, I'd enjoy"},{"startTime":299.125,"endTime":303.515,"body":"the the luxuries, , coming"},{"startTime":303.515,"endTime":306.835,"body":"straight out of, , an MBA class,"},{"startTime":303.515,"endTime":306.835,"body":"and yeah, enjoy that for a while."},{"startTime":306.835,"endTime":309.595,"body":"But for me, that would drive"},{"startTime":306.835,"endTime":309.595,"body":"pretty quickly because you're"},{"startTime":309.595,"endTime":310.705,"body":"not making a difference."},{"startTime":311.005,"endTime":311.695,"body":"You're really not."},{"startTime":311.695,"endTime":315.83,"body":"I mean, he's saying he gave up right"},{"startTime":311.695,"endTime":315.83,"body":"after trying, and it's like, okay,"},{"startTime":315.83,"endTime":317.72,"body":"if you give up, what does that say?"},{"startTime":318.02,"endTime":321.77,"body":"You're saying, I give up If"},{"startTime":318.02,"endTime":321.77,"body":"executive A wants something Yes, sir."},{"startTime":321.77,"endTime":323.66,"body":"Coming right up, would"},{"startTime":321.77,"endTime":323.66,"body":"you like fries with that?"},{"startTime":323.74,"endTime":324.06,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":324.065,"endTime":327.05,"body":"That, that to me just"},{"startTime":324.065,"endTime":327.05,"body":"says you're in it for you."},{"startTime":327.56,"endTime":328.04,"body":"That's it."},{"startTime":328.67,"endTime":336.44,"body":"So that person, while the money is"},{"startTime":328.67,"endTime":336.44,"body":"fantastic, they make come a time when the"},{"startTime":336.44,"endTime":339.32,"body":"tide changes, somebody else takes over."},{"startTime":339.35,"endTime":339.44,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":339.71,"endTime":340.04,"body":", right?"},{"startTime":340.07,"endTime":341.81,"body":"Where they say, Well, what"},{"startTime":340.07,"endTime":341.81,"body":"value are you bringing?"},{"startTime":341.81,"endTime":342.23,"body":"You're out."},{"startTime":342.47,"endTime":345.92,"body":"And then that person is"},{"startTime":342.47,"endTime":345.92,"body":"literally like out, how are"},{"startTime":345.92,"endTime":348.35,"body":"they going to then land a job?"},{"startTime":349.305,"endTime":352.175,"body":"Where they can make a difference"},{"startTime":349.305,"endTime":352.175,"body":"because they've not learned."},{"startTime":352.265,"endTime":354.515,"body":"They've not learned by failing,"},{"startTime":352.265,"endTime":354.515,"body":"I guess is what I'm saying."},{"startTime":354.695,"endTime":357.845,"body":"They've not learned by trying,"},{"startTime":354.695,"endTime":357.845,"body":"they tried and then they gave up."},{"startTime":357.905,"endTime":361.865,"body":"Instead of they tried, they failed,"},{"startTime":357.905,"endTime":361.865,"body":"they got up, dusted themselves off,"},{"startTime":362.375,"endTime":365.285,"body":"learned something from that, tried"},{"startTime":362.375,"endTime":365.285,"body":"something else, or instant repeat."},{"startTime":365.315,"endTime":368.765,"body":"I mean that the school of hard knocks,"},{"startTime":365.315,"endTime":368.765,"body":"I guess is how people describe that."},{"startTime":368.855,"endTime":369.275,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":369.335,"endTime":374.335,"body":"I'm gonna guess that part of it is"},{"startTime":369.335,"endTime":374.335,"body":"I've been in large organizations where,"},{"startTime":374.755,"endTime":380.515,"body":"Enough failure just gets you kicked from"},{"startTime":374.755,"endTime":380.515,"body":"programmed program doesn't get you fired."},{"startTime":381.545,"endTime":384.545,"body":"And also in large programs, the other"},{"startTime":381.545,"endTime":384.545,"body":"thing I've seen in large programs"},{"startTime":385.205,"endTime":388.625,"body":"is, fail is mainly avoidable."},{"startTime":388.625,"endTime":394.445,"body":"If you can shift the blame to"},{"startTime":388.625,"endTime":394.445,"body":"the, the right people, or I"},{"startTime":394.445,"endTime":395.555,"body":"guess the wrong people, I guess."},{"startTime":395.555,"endTime":396.246,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":396.605,"endTime":397.985,"body":"Now you're onto something there."},{"startTime":397.985,"endTime":398.735,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":399.005,"endTime":399.215,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":399.215,"endTime":400.985,"body":"There are certain techniques."},{"startTime":401.075,"endTime":402.815,"body":"I guess I hate to even use that word."},{"startTime":402.845,"endTime":403.595,"body":"Oh, it's, you're right."},{"startTime":403.595,"endTime":405.005,"body":"But people use them, right?"},{"startTime":405.01,"endTime":408.425,"body":"Like they go into an organization,"},{"startTime":405.01,"endTime":408.425,"body":"they go, Okay, nothing"},{"startTime":408.425,"endTime":409.715,"body":"really, I don't understand."},{"startTime":409.715,"endTime":410.885,"body":"Everything seems to be working."},{"startTime":410.89,"endTime":412.415,"body":"I don't know about this domain."},{"startTime":412.775,"endTime":415.175,"body":"So what I'm gonna do is I'm"},{"startTime":412.775,"endTime":415.175,"body":"gonna break something and"},{"startTime":415.18,"endTime":416.585,"body":"I'm gonna fix it really fast."},{"startTime":416.59,"endTime":416.795,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":417.035,"endTime":419.765,"body":"Then I'm gonna go wave the flag"},{"startTime":417.035,"endTime":419.765,"body":"and go look at what I just did."},{"startTime":419.77,"endTime":420.155,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":420.485,"endTime":420.755,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":420.755,"endTime":421.895,"body":"And, and yeah."},{"startTime":421.895,"endTime":425.395,"body":"I mean, I've seen that in large company"},{"startTime":421.895,"endTime":425.395,"body":"where people do that and they're."},{"startTime":425.99,"endTime":430.84,"body":"Because people that are doing the"},{"startTime":425.99,"endTime":430.84,"body":"rewarding, they just see that, Oh,"},{"startTime":430.84,"endTime":434.91,"body":"this person came in, they happen"},{"startTime":430.84,"endTime":434.91,"body":"to see something that was counter"},{"startTime":434.94,"endTime":438.21,"body":"productive or whatever, and they"},{"startTime":434.94,"endTime":438.21,"body":"did something that fixed it."},{"startTime":438.3,"endTime":439.38,"body":"Aren't they wonderful?"},{"startTime":439.44,"endTime":439.5,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":439.59,"endTime":440.28,"body":"Let's promote 'em."},{"startTime":440.67,"endTime":442.98,"body":"I've seen that way too often in my career."},{"startTime":443.52,"endTime":449.03,"body":"this person, I think you're right the kind"},{"startTime":443.52,"endTime":449.03,"body":"of money that they say they're making, I"},{"startTime":449.035,"endTime":450.41,"body":"mean assuming they're not trolling, right."},{"startTime":450.44,"endTime":453.8,"body":"They are definitely in one of those"},{"startTime":450.44,"endTime":453.8,"body":"companies, of the FAANG companies maybe."},{"startTime":453.805,"endTime":453.89,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":453.92,"endTime":454.07,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":454.25,"endTime":459.37,"body":"And, the people that are evaluating"},{"startTime":454.25,"endTime":459.37,"body":"these people are being fed what"},{"startTime":459.37,"endTime":462.82,"body":"they are looking to be fed."},{"startTime":463.0,"endTime":464.29,"body":"Like, Yes sir."},{"startTime":464.29,"endTime":464.74,"body":"No sir."},{"startTime":464.74,"endTime":465.34,"body":"Yes ma'am."},{"startTime":465.34,"endTime":465.79,"body":"No ma'am."},{"startTime":465.79,"endTime":465.97,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":465.975,"endTime":466.87,"body":"We're gonna do this for you."},{"startTime":466.87,"endTime":467.95,"body":"We can do this for you too."},{"startTime":468.25,"endTime":469.66,"body":"You are really not."},{"startTime":470.575,"endTime":474.955,"body":"Doing your, your position, your, I"},{"startTime":470.575,"endTime":474.955,"body":"was, I almost said title, but titles"},{"startTime":474.955,"endTime":476.005,"body":"are meaningless at this stage."},{"startTime":476.185,"endTime":476.305,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":476.485,"endTime":477.365,"body":"Your position."},{"startTime":477.37,"endTime":478.99,"body":"any justice at all."},{"startTime":479.38,"endTime":479.74,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":480.04,"endTime":484.39,"body":"So flip side of that is somebody who"},{"startTime":480.04,"endTime":484.39,"body":"comes outta college, maybe somebody"},{"startTime":484.39,"endTime":488.5,"body":"their, their peer who comes outta the"},{"startTime":484.39,"endTime":488.5,"body":"same MBA class, who wants to really become"},{"startTime":488.5,"endTime":490.48,"body":"a product person and make a difference."},{"startTime":491.05,"endTime":495.58,"body":"You're doing them a huge disservice"},{"startTime":491.05,"endTime":495.58,"body":"by simply throwing in the towel."},{"startTime":496.06,"endTime":496.45,"body":"I tried."},{"startTime":496.45,"endTime":497.05,"body":"It doesn't work."},{"startTime":497.65,"endTime":498.14,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":498.14,"endTime":498.26,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":498.5,"endTime":500.6,"body":"the other people, they're"},{"startTime":498.5,"endTime":500.6,"body":"kind of throwing on the buses."},{"startTime":500.6,"endTime":504.14,"body":"Anybody who comes in as a Google,"},{"startTime":500.6,"endTime":504.14,"body":"Microsoft, they have pipelines"},{"startTime":504.14,"endTime":507.78,"body":"out of MBA programs into, product"},{"startTime":504.14,"endTime":507.78,"body":"management at their companies."},{"startTime":508.05,"endTime":511.13,"body":"But, the, the other thing that I"},{"startTime":508.05,"endTime":511.13,"body":"believe, I could be wrong on this, , but"},{"startTime":511.13,"endTime":512.805,"body":"I believe they have is, associate."},{"startTime":513.33,"endTime":516.21,"body":"Product manager programs where people"},{"startTime":513.33,"endTime":516.21,"body":"come in and try to learn the ropes."},{"startTime":516.3,"endTime":516.42,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":516.66,"endTime":519.66,"body":". And the terrible thing here is"},{"startTime":516.66,"endTime":519.66,"body":"that you get rolled under one of"},{"startTime":519.66,"endTime":522.66,"body":"these people who's kind of checked"},{"startTime":519.66,"endTime":522.66,"body":"out and now what are you learning?"},{"startTime":522.8,"endTime":526.25,"body":"The other thing to, to go back to what"},{"startTime":522.8,"endTime":526.25,"body":"I was kind of pointing out that kind"},{"startTime":526.255,"endTime":530.58,"body":"of scares me about this environment is"},{"startTime":526.255,"endTime":530.58,"body":"what happens when you build the wrong"},{"startTime":530.58,"endTime":534.33,"body":"thing and then you have to wheel it"},{"startTime":530.58,"endTime":534.33,"body":"back to build the right thing after"},{"startTime":534.33,"endTime":537.355,"body":"expending all the development time"},{"startTime":534.33,"endTime":537.355,"body":"and effort to build the wrong thing."},{"startTime":537.775,"endTime":540.23,"body":"You've blown all your dates outta"},{"startTime":537.775,"endTime":540.23,"body":"the water and all, you've used all"},{"startTime":540.23,"endTime":543.8,"body":"your good will with the leadership"},{"startTime":540.23,"endTime":543.8,"body":"or executives or other departments"},{"startTime":543.8,"endTime":544.97,"body":"or customers or whoever it is."},{"startTime":544.97,"endTime":545.03,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":545.2,"endTime":548.74,"body":"Or or people online and the kid, I'm,"},{"startTime":545.2,"endTime":548.74,"body":"I almost guarantee this person does"},{"startTime":548.74,"endTime":550.21,"body":"not build mobile apps in app stores."},{"startTime":550.84,"endTime":551.68,"body":"Almost guaranteed."},{"startTime":551.68,"endTime":552.04,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":552.09,"endTime":555.21,"body":"What happens when you burn through"},{"startTime":552.09,"endTime":555.21,"body":"all your goodwill or money or"},{"startTime":555.21,"endTime":556.44,"body":"political capital or whatever."},{"startTime":556.77,"endTime":557.67,"body":"what happens then?"},{"startTime":558.36,"endTime":561.57,"body":"if you had done some experimentations,"},{"startTime":558.36,"endTime":561.57,"body":"if you had started with data and you"},{"startTime":561.57,"endTime":563.91,"body":"had seek to fill in the holes first."},{"startTime":564.36,"endTime":566.82,"body":"So what happens when you actually do fail?"},{"startTime":566.88,"endTime":567.96,"body":"That's where I'm going with this."},{"startTime":568.51,"endTime":572.3,"body":"And the reason I bring this up just to"},{"startTime":568.51,"endTime":572.3,"body":"show all my cards, Is because I've been"},{"startTime":572.3,"endTime":577.08,"body":"in quite a few shops where, executives"},{"startTime":572.3,"endTime":577.08,"body":"come down and say, Just build feature X."},{"startTime":577.17,"endTime":577.71,"body":"Okay, cool."},{"startTime":577.71,"endTime":578.82,"body":"We built feature X."},{"startTime":579.18,"endTime":582.24,"body":"Now the metrics say that"},{"startTime":579.18,"endTime":582.24,"body":"no one is using feature X."},{"startTime":583.2,"endTime":586.62,"body":"Okay, well, we built how many"},{"startTime":583.2,"endTime":586.62,"body":"features that no one uses."},{"startTime":586.84,"endTime":587.62,"body":"How long can we do that?"},{"startTime":587.62,"endTime":589.87,"body":"Until the management"},{"startTime":587.62,"endTime":589.87,"body":"just cuts the whole team"},{"startTime":590.55,"endTime":594.36,"body":"maybe he works for Google and"},{"startTime":590.55,"endTime":594.36,"body":"that's never gonna happen."},{"startTime":594.6,"endTime":595.23,"body":"Doesn't matter."},{"startTime":595.5,"endTime":600.26,"body":"There's 50 teams on one program"},{"startTime":595.5,"endTime":600.26,"body":"and he's never judged by failures."},{"startTime":600.63,"endTime":603.48,"body":"Maybe he's got his engineering manager"},{"startTime":600.63,"endTime":603.48,"body":"or whatever that's judged by that kind"},{"startTime":603.48,"endTime":607.675,"body":"of stuff Or maybe their metrics are"},{"startTime":603.48,"endTime":607.675,"body":"totally jacked up on the back end, where"},{"startTime":607.855,"endTime":609.415,"body":"they're never measured by effectiveness."},{"startTime":609.415,"endTime":611.455,"body":"They're never measured"},{"startTime":609.415,"endTime":611.455,"body":"by daily active usage."},{"startTime":611.695,"endTime":614.735,"body":"They're never measured by total"},{"startTime":611.695,"endTime":614.735,"body":"number of uses in their application."},{"startTime":615.03,"endTime":616.83,"body":", successes, failure, stuff like that."},{"startTime":617.2,"endTime":619.51,"body":"Maybe in the environment they're"},{"startTime":617.2,"endTime":619.51,"body":"never measured like that."},{"startTime":619.81,"endTime":624.34,"body":"So like when I say that, I'm like,"},{"startTime":619.81,"endTime":624.34,"body":"Well, if that's true, I doubt very much"},{"startTime":624.34,"endTime":625.78,"body":"he's working for Microsoft or Google."},{"startTime":626.02,"endTime":627.1,"body":"Cause I doubt very much."},{"startTime":627.1,"endTime":630.28,"body":"They're not saying, Oh, you"},{"startTime":627.1,"endTime":630.28,"body":"didn't get any new users."},{"startTime":630.285,"endTime":631.15,"body":"Okay, it's fine."},{"startTime":631.18,"endTime":631.72,"body":"It's cool."},{"startTime":632.0,"endTime":636.46,"body":"I think to go back to the question you"},{"startTime":632.0,"endTime":636.46,"body":"posed, like what happens if, Right?"},{"startTime":636.56,"endTime":640.1,"body":"Oftentimes it's escapism"},{"startTime":636.56,"endTime":640.1,"body":"and scape cooling, right?"},{"startTime":640.37,"endTime":643.01,"body":"So these people would"},{"startTime":640.37,"endTime":643.01,"body":"say, Okay, we tried this."},{"startTime":643.49,"endTime":645.41,"body":"Wasn't that your idea, Fred or Mary?"},{"startTime":645.5,"endTime":645.83,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":645.95,"endTime":646.19,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":646.22,"endTime":648.44,"body":"And yeah, it wasn't a good idea at all."},{"startTime":648.44,"endTime":648.53,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":648.59,"endTime":653.78,"body":"So the way it gets framed, whether it was"},{"startTime":648.59,"endTime":653.78,"body":"their idea or not, the way it gets framed"},{"startTime":653.78,"endTime":659.0,"body":"to leadership, We fail because somebody"},{"startTime":653.78,"endTime":659.0,"body":"suggested something, we tried it out."},{"startTime":659.27,"endTime":660.86,"body":"I gave them the chance to experiment."},{"startTime":661.01,"endTime":661.22,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":661.22,"endTime":663.56,"body":"This was a null hypothesis, basically."},{"startTime":663.56,"endTime":663.89,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":663.895,"endTime":666.675,"body":"But, experiment in that case"},{"startTime":663.895,"endTime":666.675,"body":"means building the whole solution,"},{"startTime":666.675,"endTime":670.465,"body":"taking whatever six weeks,"},{"startTime":666.675,"endTime":670.465,"body":"eight weeks, or whatever that's"},{"startTime":670.465,"endTime":675.075,"body":"experimenting in that situation"},{"startTime":670.465,"endTime":675.075,"body":"is the most expensive version Yes."},{"startTime":675.075,"endTime":675.855,"body":"Of experimenting."},{"startTime":675.899,"endTime":678.719,"body":"It's not even the fact that"},{"startTime":675.899,"endTime":678.719,"body":"you're failing in the marketplace."},{"startTime":678.809,"endTime":679.019,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":679.109,"endTime":681.959,"body":"It's the fact that you're"},{"startTime":679.109,"endTime":681.959,"body":"seen to be failing."},{"startTime":681.959,"endTime":686.249,"body":"So it's the rep damage, it's the"},{"startTime":681.959,"endTime":686.249,"body":"reputation damage that is way, way"},{"startTime":686.249,"endTime":691.249,"body":"more than just the, the loss of is it,"},{"startTime":686.249,"endTime":691.249,"body":"is it the fact that, you really have"},{"startTime":691.509,"endTime":698.259,"body":"to have a razor sharp finance people"},{"startTime":691.509,"endTime":698.259,"body":"to measure the impact, on your brand."},{"startTime":698.689,"endTime":700.454,"body":"And most people just don't, They don't."},{"startTime":700.769,"endTime":701.969,"body":"Have that or do that."},{"startTime":702.509,"endTime":704.309,"body":"It it is, it's exactly that."},{"startTime":704.579,"endTime":709.409,"body":"So people that are measuring things,"},{"startTime":704.579,"endTime":709.409,"body":"it's not just finance, right?"},{"startTime":709.619,"endTime":711.089,"body":"Are they measuring the right things?"},{"startTime":711.449,"endTime":714.959,"body":"You know, are they looking at the"},{"startTime":711.449,"endTime":714.959,"body":"standard things that people talk"},{"startTime":714.959,"endTime":717.509,"body":"about, like ROI and things like that?"},{"startTime":717.839,"endTime":722.759,"body":"where I is very difficult to quantify"},{"startTime":717.839,"endTime":722.759,"body":"because it's how do you quantify"},{"startTime":722.759,"endTime":726.689,"body":"the amount of money in the, at the"},{"startTime":722.759,"endTime":726.689,"body":"end of the day, Yeah, invested."},{"startTime":726.749,"endTime":727.439,"body":"That's one thing."},{"startTime":727.439,"endTime":730.049,"body":"The other thing is, is that your"},{"startTime":727.439,"endTime":730.049,"body":"money or are you borrowing it?"},{"startTime":730.349,"endTime":730.589,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":730.589,"endTime":733.389,"body":"If you're borrowing it then"},{"startTime":730.589,"endTime":733.389,"body":"it's a different measure"},{"startTime":733.389,"endTime":735.159,"body":"because it's not your money."},{"startTime":735.159,"endTime":737.979,"body":"So it's the return of capital"},{"startTime":735.159,"endTime":737.979,"body":"invested and the cost of that"},{"startTime":737.979,"endTime":739.299,"body":"capital to raise that capital."},{"startTime":739.509,"endTime":744.129,"body":"There's so many different financial"},{"startTime":739.509,"endTime":744.129,"body":"measures that that can be used."},{"startTime":744.459,"endTime":745.599,"body":"But yeah, absolutely."},{"startTime":746.049,"endTime":748.779,"body":"Somebody needs to have a"},{"startTime":746.049,"endTime":748.779,"body":"razor sharp focus on this."},{"startTime":749.184,"endTime":754.464,"body":"And figure out whether this avenue"},{"startTime":749.184,"endTime":754.464,"body":"is potentially viable or not."},{"startTime":754.824,"endTime":758.634,"body":"And, and you can't do that by"},{"startTime":754.824,"endTime":758.634,"body":"building a feature or building"},{"startTime":758.684,"endTime":760.844,"body":"building a product worse yet, right?"},{"startTime":760.934,"endTime":761.024,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":761.264,"endTime":765.134,"body":"putting it out there and say, Oh"},{"startTime":761.264,"endTime":765.134,"body":"dear, not many people used it, right?"},{"startTime":765.524,"endTime":769.844,"body":"Do this as a real experiment, which"},{"startTime":765.524,"endTime":769.844,"body":"is partner with your customers."},{"startTime":769.904,"endTime":774.134,"body":"Get a select group that express"},{"startTime":769.904,"endTime":774.134,"body":"interest in this after you've put out"},{"startTime":774.134,"endTime":777.284,"body":"the polls, et cetera, and get them in."},{"startTime":777.344,"endTime":778.274,"body":"Shorten the chain."},{"startTime":778.274,"endTime":780.554,"body":"Bring them in and say,"},{"startTime":778.274,"endTime":780.554,"body":"Here's what we're thinking."},{"startTime":780.554,"endTime":781.514,"body":"It's in the lab still."},{"startTime":781.514,"endTime":785.264,"body":"You can play with it if you really"},{"startTime":781.514,"endTime":785.264,"body":"want to use it in your actual product."},{"startTime":785.654,"endTime":788.264,"body":"Put it out there with"},{"startTime":785.654,"endTime":788.264,"body":"a quote unquote switch."},{"startTime":788.624,"endTime":789.494,"body":"We're talking about this earlier."},{"startTime":789.704,"endTime":794.159,"body":"The customer has complete control over"},{"startTime":789.704,"endTime":794.159,"body":"if and when they want to turn on the"},{"startTime":794.159,"endTime":796.469,"body":"switch to experiment with a new feature."},{"startTime":796.769,"endTime":798.359,"body":"If they like it, they"},{"startTime":796.769,"endTime":798.359,"body":"can keep the switch on."},{"startTime":798.359,"endTime":799.769,"body":"No one else sees it except them."},{"startTime":799.769,"endTime":803.063,"body":"if they don't like it, and if"},{"startTime":799.769,"endTime":803.063,"body":"really, I mean, things go awry,"},{"startTime":803.363,"endTime":805.203,"body":"then they can turn it off."},{"startTime":805.623,"endTime":806.313,"body":"Real fast."},{"startTime":806.343,"endTime":808.713,"body":"They don't have to wait for the"},{"startTime":806.343,"endTime":808.713,"body":"company to deploy to production,"},{"startTime":808.833,"endTime":812.073,"body":"a fix or a retraction of any kind."},{"startTime":812.073,"endTime":812.193,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":812.223,"endTime":812.553,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":813.153,"endTime":813.843,"body":"I don't know, man."},{"startTime":813.873,"endTime":816.363,"body":"this guy making 200 k seems disagree."},{"startTime":816.368,"endTime":819.033,"body":"He's a, he's just gonna build"},{"startTime":816.368,"endTime":819.033,"body":"it with his development team and"},{"startTime":819.033,"endTime":822.078,"body":"then he's gonna say yes, he's a"},{"startTime":819.033,"endTime":822.078,"body":"yes man at this point for 200 K."},{"startTime":822.498,"endTime":823.768,"body":"I mean Hey, sign me up."},{"startTime":823.768,"endTime":824.218,"body":"I guess."},{"startTime":824.248,"endTime":825.288,"body":"I don't, I don't"},{"startTime":825.343,"endTime":830.293,"body":"The other thing that I've seen that"},{"startTime":825.343,"endTime":830.293,"body":"I think is even more damaging, like"},{"startTime":830.293,"endTime":834.403,"body":"the, the damaging to the company"},{"startTime":830.293,"endTime":834.403,"body":"in building things with your budget"},{"startTime":834.403,"endTime":838.903,"body":"and spending people's time that you"},{"startTime":834.403,"endTime":838.903,"body":"haven't necessarily proved that that's"},{"startTime":838.903,"endTime":840.313,"body":"the correct thing to spend time on."},{"startTime":840.493,"endTime":841.783,"body":"That is damaging number one."},{"startTime":842.203,"endTime":845.413,"body":"But also number two, when you go"},{"startTime":842.203,"endTime":845.413,"body":"and build something that customers"},{"startTime":845.413,"endTime":850.803,"body":"don't like or customers can't use,"},{"startTime":845.413,"endTime":850.803,"body":"won't use not feasible to use."},{"startTime":851.063,"endTime":852.623,"body":"customer usability is not done."},{"startTime":852.623,"endTime":855.863,"body":"You know, maybe you didn't, maybe you"},{"startTime":852.623,"endTime":855.863,"body":"couldn't get ui ux time or whatever."},{"startTime":855.863,"endTime":856.073,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":856.283,"endTime":857.063,"body":"A million reasons."},{"startTime":857.063,"endTime":860.218,"body":"One of the things you said was, well,"},{"startTime":857.063,"endTime":860.218,"body":"whoever's idea it was originally, whoever"},{"startTime":860.218,"endTime":862.168,"body":"lobbied for it, they kind of get blamed."},{"startTime":862.438,"endTime":862.708,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":863.008,"endTime":866.398,"body":"But I've also been in situations"},{"startTime":863.008,"endTime":866.398,"body":"where the people who lobby for the"},{"startTime":866.398,"endTime":869.518,"body":"changes, like VPs, sales people, stuff"},{"startTime":866.398,"endTime":869.518,"body":"like that, like they're a little too"},{"startTime":869.518,"endTime":870.898,"body":"high on the food chain to get blamed."},{"startTime":871.318,"endTime":875.468,"body":"So then it rolls down to like, . This"},{"startTime":871.318,"endTime":875.468,"body":"is gonna be a  you're, gonna laugh"},{"startTime":875.488,"endTime":876.478,"body":"when I throw this one out there."},{"startTime":876.478,"endTime":879.148,"body":"I almost wanna cut to the wide angle"},{"startTime":876.478,"endTime":879.148,"body":"just to get your reaction on camera."},{"startTime":879.488,"endTime":884.108,"body":"it basically rolls down to whoever"},{"startTime":879.488,"endTime":884.108,"body":"it can roll down to based on like"},{"startTime":884.113,"endTime":885.938,"body":"the highest paid person in the room."},{"startTime":885.938,"endTime":889.778,"body":"I specifically remember working in"},{"startTime":885.938,"endTime":889.778,"body":"a work center where when something"},{"startTime":889.778,"endTime":893.138,"body":"like this happens and you're like,"},{"startTime":889.778,"endTime":893.138,"body":"Oh, the user, the usability of"},{"startTime":893.138,"endTime":894.668,"body":"this feature is not really great."},{"startTime":894.818,"endTime":897.818,"body":"Hey, who tested this from the QA team?"},{"startTime":898.088,"endTime":899.498,"body":"Which tester tested this?"},{"startTime":899.768,"endTime":901.478,"body":"How come this wasn't tested better?"},{"startTime":902.303,"endTime":902.513,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":902.513,"endTime":903.983,"body":"How come we didn't catch all this stuff?"},{"startTime":904.013,"endTime":905.483,"body":"How come we didn't catch all these bugs?"},{"startTime":905.483,"endTime":910.793,"body":"It, it's no longer a, it's no longer a"},{"startTime":905.483,"endTime":910.793,"body":"strategic design or market fit issue."},{"startTime":910.793,"endTime":913.468,"body":"It's now's just simply a catch this issue."},{"startTime":913.468,"endTime":913.798,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":914.188,"endTime":916.108,"body":"Can we should look to"},{"startTime":914.188,"endTime":916.108,"body":"blame now on the road."},{"startTime":916.138,"endTime":916.438,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":916.443,"endTime":917.608,"body":"Right now."},{"startTime":917.688,"endTime":919.938,"body":"This is the scape, scape scapegoat-ism."},{"startTime":920.158,"endTime":920.358,"body":"Is"},{"startTime":920.504,"endTime":921.554,"body":"that is so prevalent."},{"startTime":921.559,"endTime":927.794,"body":"That's why there are so many people out"},{"startTime":921.559,"endTime":927.794,"body":"there across the industry in, in pm not"},{"startTime":927.799,"endTime":933.014,"body":"just FAANG companies, but you know, lower"},{"startTime":927.799,"endTime":933.014,"body":"tier companies where this, this prevalent."},{"startTime":933.414,"endTime":934.914,"body":"This blame game that happens."},{"startTime":935.724,"endTime":938.934,"body":"What I do find is this, people like that."},{"startTime":940.599,"endTime":942.849,"body":"Never get blamed or seldom get blamed."},{"startTime":943.239,"endTime":948.399,"body":"What they tend to do though, is they"},{"startTime":943.239,"endTime":948.399,"body":"will say, Okay, I'm gonna fix this."},{"startTime":949.329,"endTime":952.239,"body":"Remember now, this is not a"},{"startTime":949.329,"endTime":952.239,"body":"situation that they, Oh, here we go."},{"startTime":952.329,"endTime":953.739,"body":"Prevented to begin with."},{"startTime":953.799,"endTime":955.509,"body":"This is the, the hero, right?"},{"startTime":955.599,"endTime":955.749,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":955.869,"endTime":959.019,"body":"So they come in and they say, Well that's,"},{"startTime":955.869,"endTime":959.019,"body":"that's clearly not the right product."},{"startTime":959.169,"endTime":964.059,"body":"Why don't we try this ? And if"},{"startTime":959.169,"endTime":964.059,"body":"by any happenstance that that fix"},{"startTime":964.239,"endTime":968.679,"body":"the pivot lands, like even if it's"},{"startTime":964.239,"endTime":968.679,"body":"like sticking to the wall for a"},{"startTime":968.679,"endTime":971.394,"body":"little bit, , That's it, right?"},{"startTime":971.394,"endTime":971.454,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":971.484,"endTime":971.814,"body":"That's it."},{"startTime":971.844,"endTime":977.034,"body":"They get the credit and they move to"},{"startTime":971.844,"endTime":977.034,"body":"another company in an elevated position."},{"startTime":977.214,"endTime":977.304,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":977.304,"endTime":979.284,"body":"Yeah, I have seen that way too often."},{"startTime":979.334,"endTime":982.854,"body":"I call that rising to the"},{"startTime":979.334,"endTime":982.854,"body":"highest level of incompetence."},{"startTime":983.034,"endTime":983.274,"body":"Oh, yeah."},{"startTime":983.274,"endTime":987.364,"body":"But also this is Deming's Red Bead"},{"startTime":983.274,"endTime":987.364,"body":"experiment where he  like the, the"},{"startTime":987.364,"endTime":991.904,"body":"fact that you pulled the, like We'll,"},{"startTime":987.364,"endTime":991.904,"body":"we'll cover this in the Deming podcast."},{"startTime":992.084,"endTime":994.184,"body":"The mini podcasts."},{"startTime":994.184,"endTime":994.424,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":994.424,"endTime":996.094,"body":"The mini, Mini Deming podcasts."},{"startTime":996.094,"endTime":997.684,"body":"The two hour Deming podcast."},{"startTime":997.984,"endTime":1000.374,"body":"But also the red bead experiment."},{"startTime":1000.664,"endTime":1002.824,"body":"The people that pull less red beads."},{"startTime":1003.094,"endTime":1006.664,"body":"It's like the, statistically speaking,"},{"startTime":1003.094,"endTime":1006.664,"body":"like if you play the game long enough,"},{"startTime":1006.694,"endTime":1008.464,"body":"like the casino, the house always wins."},{"startTime":1008.524,"endTime":1008.614,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1008.809,"endTime":1012.259,"body":"In the first round, when you do the"},{"startTime":1008.809,"endTime":1012.259,"body":"experiment, like you laud the people"},{"startTime":1012.259,"endTime":1014.269,"body":"who, who pulled less red beads?"},{"startTime":1014.269,"endTime":1016.489,"body":"Like, Oh look, these people are so great."},{"startTime":1016.489,"endTime":1017.899,"body":"Why are you guys pulling"},{"startTime":1016.489,"endTime":1017.899,"body":"somebody red beads?"},{"startTime":1017.899,"endTime":1018.799,"body":"Look at these people."},{"startTime":1018.919,"endTime":1019.549,"body":"They did it."},{"startTime":1019.549,"endTime":1022.009,"body":"Therefore everybody"},{"startTime":1019.549,"endTime":1022.009,"body":"should be able to do it."},{"startTime":1022.009,"endTime":1022.339,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1022.419,"endTime":1022.539,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1022.544,"endTime":1022.669,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1022.699,"endTime":1023.959,"body":"What is your problem?"},{"startTime":1023.959,"endTime":1025.009,"body":"You guys are fired."},{"startTime":1025.009,"endTime":1026.269,"body":"You gotta get outta here."},{"startTime":1026.419,"endTime":1027.949,"body":"You're dismissed from the experiment."},{"startTime":1028.279,"endTime":1029.989,"body":"Go home, you win, you win."},{"startTime":1029.989,"endTime":1030.319,"body":"Nothing."},{"startTime":1030.319,"endTime":1033.379,"body":"This is the same thing, like"},{"startTime":1030.319,"endTime":1033.379,"body":"statistically speaking like if you"},{"startTime":1033.379,"endTime":1037.429,"body":"work in a company like this and you"},{"startTime":1033.379,"endTime":1037.429,"body":"keep going through with no kind of"},{"startTime":1037.429,"endTime":1040.129,"body":"control over what work comes in, right?"},{"startTime":1040.129,"endTime":1044.539,"body":"Cuz you're your person who basically,"},{"startTime":1040.129,"endTime":1044.539,"body":"who's in charge of controlling the work"},{"startTime":1044.539,"endTime":1048.799,"body":"coming in, basically is decided to check"},{"startTime":1044.539,"endTime":1048.799,"body":"out and, and say yes to everything."},{"startTime":1048.899,"endTime":1054.134,"body":"When I saw this post, the first thing"},{"startTime":1048.899,"endTime":1054.134,"body":"that I thought of, Was, Oh look,"},{"startTime":1054.764,"endTime":1056.684,"body":"here's someone who's really burnt out."},{"startTime":1057.344,"endTime":1058.964,"body":"That was the first thing I thought of."},{"startTime":1058.964,"endTime":1060.794,"body":"I was like, this person"},{"startTime":1058.964,"endTime":1060.794,"body":"is really burnt out."},{"startTime":1061.034,"endTime":1066.866,"body":"And, had they, I sat down with their"},{"startTime":1061.034,"endTime":1066.866,"body":"leadership with proper one-on-ones."},{"startTime":1067.746,"endTime":1069.546,"body":"maybe they could have expressed this."},{"startTime":1069.556,"endTime":1073.446,"body":"I'm going out on a limb now and  guarantee"},{"startTime":1069.556,"endTime":1073.446,"body":"that he sat down with his bosses, a boss."},{"startTime":1073.446,"endTime":1073.926,"body":"Like whatever."},{"startTime":1073.926,"endTime":1074.376,"body":"I don't even know."},{"startTime":1074.376,"endTime":1075.366,"body":"Like, where do you even work?"},{"startTime":1075.366,"endTime":1076.396,"body":"I don't even Who are you?"},{"startTime":1076.396,"endTime":1077.746,"body":"Who are you get outta my office."},{"startTime":1078.226,"endTime":1079.366,"body":"I'm going, Don't play golf."},{"startTime":1079.366,"endTime":1079.606,"body":"Seriously."},{"startTime":1079.606,"endTime":1079.726,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1079.731,"endTime":1080.016,"body":"Get outta my office."},{"startTime":1080.016,"endTime":1080.216,"body":"I."},{"startTime":1080.606,"endTime":1084.256,"body":"but his burnout would've been"},{"startTime":1080.606,"endTime":1084.256,"body":"detected in some way, shape, or"},{"startTime":1084.256,"endTime":1087.626,"body":"form and then would've gotten help."},{"startTime":1087.696,"endTime":1091.381,"body":"I would hope that again, assuming"},{"startTime":1087.696,"endTime":1091.381,"body":"that he's not just working for like"},{"startTime":1091.621,"endTime":1095.041,"body":"some chief product officer who's"},{"startTime":1091.621,"endTime":1095.041,"body":"actually just a sales guy that they"},{"startTime":1095.041,"endTime":1099.571,"body":"got from whatever, some other big"},{"startTime":1095.041,"endTime":1099.571,"body":"comp, Microsoft or whatever, you know?"},{"startTime":1099.761,"endTime":1100.921,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1100.921,"endTime":1103.681,"body":"He should have been offered some"},{"startTime":1100.921,"endTime":1103.681,"body":"therapy by somebody higher up."},{"startTime":1103.681,"endTime":1108.906,"body":"But in this case, just looking at this,"},{"startTime":1103.681,"endTime":1108.906,"body":"it doesn't sound like he went to any"},{"startTime":1108.906,"endTime":1112.206,"body":"great distance to remediate issue."},{"startTime":1112.236,"endTime":1114.226,"body":"I mean, honestly, that's"},{"startTime":1112.236,"endTime":1114.226,"body":"what I see in there."},{"startTime":1114.246,"endTime":1116.346,"body":"I tried, it didn't work, so whatever."},{"startTime":1116.346,"endTime":1118.446,"body":"I mean, he says, I'm gonna"},{"startTime":1116.346,"endTime":1118.446,"body":"sit here and just coast."},{"startTime":1118.536,"endTime":1123.036,"body":"He says he, he says he struggled"},{"startTime":1118.536,"endTime":1123.036,"body":"for years to coach his teams and"},{"startTime":1123.036,"endTime":1126.126,"body":"stakeholders in leadership on"},{"startTime":1123.036,"endTime":1126.126,"body":"product management practices, and"},{"startTime":1126.126,"endTime":1127.881,"body":"then it fell on deaf ears, right?"},{"startTime":1127.881,"endTime":1131.751,"body":"It says, and then he says, His truth is"},{"startTime":1127.881,"endTime":1131.751,"body":"people just want to deliver features."},{"startTime":1131.811,"endTime":1133.221,"body":"I see that differently though."},{"startTime":1133.281,"endTime":1136.731,"body":"I, I'll tell, I read between the"},{"startTime":1133.281,"endTime":1136.731,"body":"lines clearly, but I see that as"},{"startTime":1137.031,"endTime":1139.161,"body":"I tried it didn't work, right?"},{"startTime":1139.491,"endTime":1142.881,"body":"So now I'm just saying, Yeah, I'll just"},{"startTime":1139.491,"endTime":1142.881,"body":"coast along whatever, whatever they"},{"startTime":1142.881,"endTime":1144.591,"body":"say, I'm just gonna say yes to, right?"},{"startTime":1144.621,"endTime":1149.121,"body":"Here's what I see that, I see that as"},{"startTime":1144.621,"endTime":1149.121,"body":"his inability to effectively coach."},{"startTime":1149.961,"endTime":1150.891,"body":"That's what I see."},{"startTime":1150.891,"endTime":1154.491,"body":"I think he should have looked at what"},{"startTime":1150.891,"endTime":1154.491,"body":"is not working about this, right?"},{"startTime":1154.501,"endTime":1154.701,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1154.781,"endTime":1156.921,"body":", why would you do the"},{"startTime":1154.781,"endTime":1156.921,"body":"same thing over and over?"},{"startTime":1157.641,"endTime":1160.311,"body":"Maybe I'm assuming again, that"},{"startTime":1157.641,"endTime":1160.311,"body":"he only did the same thing over"},{"startTime":1160.311,"endTime":1161.571,"body":"and over, but he didn't work."},{"startTime":1161.901,"endTime":1164.031,"body":"So why wouldn't you get help with that?"},{"startTime":1164.121,"endTime":1169.731,"body":"Maybe whatever that looks like, get"},{"startTime":1164.121,"endTime":1169.731,"body":"some experts in or just yourself,"},{"startTime":1169.821,"endTime":1172.646,"body":"like equip yourself, like you're,"},{"startTime":1169.821,"endTime":1172.646,"body":"you're on you're on the right track"},{"startTime":1172.646,"endTime":1175.406,"body":"with this one, because again, like we"},{"startTime":1172.646,"endTime":1175.406,"body":"don't know where this person works."},{"startTime":1175.406,"endTime":1179.126,"body":"So assuming they do work for Google,"},{"startTime":1175.406,"endTime":1179.126,"body":"like Google has full-time Agile coaches"},{"startTime":1179.126,"endTime":1181.77,"body":"on the staff, , there are people"},{"startTime":1179.126,"endTime":1181.77,"body":"you could have reached out to Yep."},{"startTime":1181.845,"endTime":1185.685,"body":"We don't have to delve into it, but I'm"},{"startTime":1181.845,"endTime":1185.685,"body":"just saying like, wouldn't you try that"},{"startTime":1185.69,"endTime":1189.345,"body":"first if you were that person instead"},{"startTime":1185.69,"endTime":1189.345,"body":"of saying, Well, I'm just gonna sit"},{"startTime":1189.345,"endTime":1193.875,"body":"back and I mean, maybe again, I, like"},{"startTime":1189.345,"endTime":1193.875,"body":"in the larger organizations I've been"},{"startTime":1193.88,"endTime":1198.835,"body":"part of like reaching outside of your"},{"startTime":1193.88,"endTime":1198.835,"body":"direct organizational unit is taboo."},{"startTime":1198.925,"endTime":1199.645,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1199.675,"endTime":1200.455,"body":"Very taboo."},{"startTime":1200.565,"endTime":1200.725,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1200.725,"endTime":1201.085,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1201.09,"endTime":1204.655,"body":"Especially if all the Agile coaches are"},{"startTime":1201.09,"endTime":1204.655,"body":"in a dis different business practice"},{"startTime":1204.655,"endTime":1208.17,"body":"or organizational unit or, community"},{"startTime":1204.655,"endTime":1208.17,"body":"of practice, but the community practice"},{"startTime":1208.17,"endTime":1212.76,"body":"actually is another organization"},{"startTime":1208.17,"endTime":1212.76,"body":"under another director or another."},{"startTime":1212.76,"endTime":1212.91,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1212.91,"endTime":1215.43,"body":"Heaven forbid if it's a"},{"startTime":1212.91,"endTime":1215.43,"body":"freaking PMO or something."},{"startTime":1215.43,"endTime":1216.0,"body":"That's what I'm saying."},{"startTime":1216.0,"endTime":1216.6,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1216.6,"endTime":1219.54,"body":"If all, and there's cross"},{"startTime":1216.6,"endTime":1219.54,"body":"charges and all that crap."},{"startTime":1219.54,"endTime":1219.69,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1219.69,"endTime":1219.87,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1219.87,"endTime":1219.99,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1219.99,"endTime":1221.76,"body":"Cross charges among business units."},{"startTime":1221.76,"endTime":1225.15,"body":"Like if you have that kind of"},{"startTime":1221.76,"endTime":1225.15,"body":"organizational setup, then doing this,"},{"startTime":1225.155,"endTime":1228.795,"body":"not only could it cost you real money,"},{"startTime":1225.155,"endTime":1228.795,"body":"But also it's, it's gonna cause a big"},{"startTime":1228.795,"endTime":1230.325,"body":"hassle for your leadership or whatever."},{"startTime":1230.325,"endTime":1232.275,"body":"Like, Hey, how come you don't"},{"startTime":1230.325,"endTime":1232.275,"body":"have this talent in house?"},{"startTime":1232.365,"endTime":1232.995,"body":"Well paid enough."},{"startTime":1232.995,"endTime":1236.475,"body":"Why do you have, why do you have this,"},{"startTime":1232.995,"endTime":1236.475,"body":"this one person, going rogue, basically."},{"startTime":1236.48,"endTime":1236.565,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1236.965,"endTime":1238.185,"body":", that's the way it'll look on paper."},{"startTime":1238.215,"endTime":1238.335,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1238.385,"endTime":1242.825,"body":"Rather than saying, Well, all, all"},{"startTime":1238.385,"endTime":1242.825,"body":"y'all that are, that's my, that's my"},{"startTime":1242.825,"endTime":1246.945,"body":"southern version of saying everyone,"},{"startTime":1242.825,"endTime":1246.945,"body":"all y'all that are drinking the Marty"},{"startTime":1247.135,"endTime":1252.135,"body":"Cagan Kool-Aid, rather than saying it"},{"startTime":1247.135,"endTime":1252.135,"body":"that way, I would argue like in your"},{"startTime":1252.135,"endTime":1256.035,"body":"culture there's the, they don't really"},{"startTime":1252.135,"endTime":1256.035,"body":"have a taste for experimentation."},{"startTime":1256.305,"endTime":1256.605,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1256.755,"endTime":1260.355,"body":"Well let's talk about why"},{"startTime":1256.755,"endTime":1260.355,"body":"your culture does not have"},{"startTime":1260.355,"endTime":1261.675,"body":"the taste for experimentation."},{"startTime":1261.68,"endTime":1262.145,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1262.15,"endTime":1263.445,"body":"Okay, Let's talk about that."},{"startTime":1263.505,"endTime":1265.755,"body":"Let's break that down and try"},{"startTime":1263.505,"endTime":1265.755,"body":"to really understand that."},{"startTime":1266.265,"endTime":1267.825,"body":"I don't see that that has happened here."},{"startTime":1267.885,"endTime":1270.495,"body":"I don't see that, like my"},{"startTime":1267.885,"endTime":1270.495,"body":"culture doesn't have a taste for"},{"startTime":1270.495,"endTime":1272.655,"body":"experimentation because Okay."},{"startTime":1272.665,"endTime":1276.535,"body":"We talked about in the, in the last"},{"startTime":1272.665,"endTime":1276.535,"body":"podcast contracting, hardcore contracting"},{"startTime":1276.649,"endTime":1278.749,"body":", time materials fixed cost me."},{"startTime":1278.899,"endTime":1284.269,"body":"So if you are in the fixed"},{"startTime":1278.899,"endTime":1284.269,"body":"cost contracting world, I"},{"startTime":1284.269,"endTime":1285.619,"body":"completely understand this."},{"startTime":1285.919,"endTime":1288.319,"body":"I'm trying to figure out a way to"},{"startTime":1285.919,"endTime":1288.319,"body":"take the opposite viewpoint, but"},{"startTime":1288.319,"endTime":1292.519,"body":"I need to get past where I'm at"},{"startTime":1288.319,"endTime":1292.519,"body":"mentally to get to where you are at."},{"startTime":1292.549,"endTime":1292.669,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1292.699,"endTime":1294.469,"body":"So I can figure out what"},{"startTime":1292.699,"endTime":1294.469,"body":"the opposing viewpoint is."},{"startTime":1294.469,"endTime":1294.709,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1294.769,"endTime":1302.164,"body":"I need to go past have you as a product,"},{"startTime":1294.769,"endTime":1302.164,"body":"asked enough questions about your business"},{"startTime":1302.164,"endTime":1308.894,"body":"space to figure out why the company is"},{"startTime":1302.164,"endTime":1308.894,"body":"not about experimentation and why your"},{"startTime":1308.894,"endTime":1315.224,"body":"coaching is not taking, why you're, dare"},{"startTime":1308.894,"endTime":1315.224,"body":"I say, leadership is not taking, right?"},{"startTime":1315.284,"endTime":1315.434,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1315.434,"endTime":1318.314,"body":"But we, we can even say"},{"startTime":1315.434,"endTime":1318.314,"body":"management like it is got an MBA."},{"startTime":1318.414,"endTime":1322.644,"body":"Why your Ivy League management that you"},{"startTime":1318.414,"endTime":1322.644,"body":"spent a whole bunch of money on, why"},{"startTime":1322.644,"endTime":1323.974,"body":"that's not taking in this environment."},{"startTime":1324.264,"endTime":1325.614,"body":"Let's try to figure out why."},{"startTime":1325.734,"endTime":1329.754,"body":"So gimme some answers to as you why this"},{"startTime":1325.734,"endTime":1329.754,"body":"stuff is not taking in your environment."},{"startTime":1330.144,"endTime":1333.354,"body":"Before we say you guys are"},{"startTime":1330.144,"endTime":1333.354,"body":"just drinking the Kool-Aid."},{"startTime":1333.359,"endTime":1335.094,"body":"This Marty Kagan stuff doesn't work."},{"startTime":1335.194,"endTime":1338.234,"body":"Let's talk about your culture"},{"startTime":1335.194,"endTime":1338.234,"body":"because there, there's a famous"},{"startTime":1338.234,"endTime":1341.444,"body":"quote about culture eats some Yeah."},{"startTime":1341.504,"endTime":1343.394,"body":"Culture eats strategy for breakfast sake."},{"startTime":1343.399,"endTime":1344.674,"body":"Peter Drucker that said that."},{"startTime":1344.674,"endTime":1345.074,"body":"Peter Drucker."},{"startTime":1345.079,"endTime":1345.374,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1345.379,"endTime":1345.514,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1345.824,"endTime":1347.834,"body":"That's this, that's this in action."},{"startTime":1347.839,"endTime":1350.714,"body":"Like, hey, you got the best, you"},{"startTime":1347.839,"endTime":1350.714,"body":"got the best strategy in the world."},{"startTime":1350.714,"endTime":1353.984,"body":"You got your strategy is to couple"},{"startTime":1350.714,"endTime":1353.984,"body":"customers, figure things out,"},{"startTime":1354.034,"endTime":1357.454,"body":"change your tactics, but here, your"},{"startTime":1354.034,"endTime":1357.454,"body":"culture is sabotaging all of that."},{"startTime":1357.544,"endTime":1357.724,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1357.729,"endTime":1360.484,"body":"Your culture is not letting"},{"startTime":1357.729,"endTime":1360.484,"body":"you operate any of that stuff."},{"startTime":1360.844,"endTime":1362.434,"body":"So, hey, make a decision."},{"startTime":1363.274,"endTime":1364.054,"body":"Make a decision."},{"startTime":1364.264,"endTime":1367.684,"body":"Forget all your best practices and"},{"startTime":1364.264,"endTime":1367.684,"body":"just do what we tell you, right?"},{"startTime":1368.104,"endTime":1373.684,"body":"And collect your 200 K or go somewhere"},{"startTime":1368.104,"endTime":1373.684,"body":"else so you can actually be successful"},{"startTime":1373.814,"endTime":1375.884,"body":"and enjoy your life, you know?"},{"startTime":1375.994,"endTime":1376.544,"body":"Yep, Yep."},{"startTime":1376.554,"endTime":1377.994,"body":"Or, or stay here and"},{"startTime":1376.554,"endTime":1377.994,"body":"don't enjoy your life."},{"startTime":1378.734,"endTime":1381.644,"body":"Well, I guess it depends on"},{"startTime":1378.734,"endTime":1381.644,"body":"their definition of enjoyment."},{"startTime":1381.644,"endTime":1383.414,"body":"It might be just banking the 200 K."},{"startTime":1383.894,"endTime":1385.094,"body":"So yeah, I agree with that."},{"startTime":1385.094,"endTime":1387.254,"body":"I, I think I can have a lot"},{"startTime":1385.094,"endTime":1387.254,"body":"of enjoyment with 200 K."},{"startTime":1387.344,"endTime":1388.064,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1388.064,"endTime":1390.374,"body":"200 k definitely buy a lot of enjoyment."},{"startTime":1390.374,"endTime":1394.244,"body":"So whoever said money by happiness"},{"startTime":1390.374,"endTime":1394.244,"body":"didn't have enough money Clearly."},{"startTime":1394.319,"endTime":1396.889,"body":"Just to extend that a little"},{"startTime":1394.319,"endTime":1396.889,"body":"bit definitely culture eat"},{"startTime":1396.894,"endTime":1397.819,"body":"strategy for breakfast."},{"startTime":1397.824,"endTime":1402.949,"body":"But what, what underpins"},{"startTime":1397.824,"endTime":1402.949,"body":"culture is the structure of"},{"startTime":1402.949,"endTime":1404.569,"body":"the organization quite clearly."},{"startTime":1404.869,"endTime":1404.929,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1404.979,"endTime":1409.659,"body":"So where this person is at,"},{"startTime":1404.979,"endTime":1409.659,"body":"where, wherever that may be, maybe"},{"startTime":1409.659,"endTime":1411.429,"body":"the structure is not conducive."},{"startTime":1412.179,"endTime":1413.439,"body":"Experimentation."},{"startTime":1413.949,"endTime":1417.579,"body":"Taking any risks, even if they're"},{"startTime":1413.949,"endTime":1417.579,"body":"calculated, all of those things."},{"startTime":1417.579,"endTime":1422.289,"body":"Maybe they're just simply really focused"},{"startTime":1417.579,"endTime":1422.289,"body":"on, here's the money, here's what we want."},{"startTime":1422.349,"endTime":1422.889,"body":"Go get it."},{"startTime":1422.889,"endTime":1423.159,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1423.159,"endTime":1425.739,"body":"And then this person tries"},{"startTime":1423.159,"endTime":1425.739,"body":"to get it, It ain't work."},{"startTime":1426.039,"endTime":1427.629,"body":"Okay, let me give him"},{"startTime":1426.039,"endTime":1427.629,"body":"the benefit of the doubt."},{"startTime":1427.659,"endTime":1430.689,"body":"Maybe it's not the fact that it"},{"startTime":1427.659,"endTime":1430.689,"body":"didn't work, because certain things,"},{"startTime":1430.959,"endTime":1434.089,"body":"especially the things that he's"},{"startTime":1430.959,"endTime":1434.089,"body":"calling out continuous discovery,"},{"startTime":1434.419,"endTime":1437.059,"body":"those kinds of things aren't like,"},{"startTime":1434.419,"endTime":1437.059,"body":"you do something and a few sprints"},{"startTime":1437.059,"endTime":1438.529,"body":"later, there's a result magically."},{"startTime":1438.589,"endTime":1438.679,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1438.919,"endTime":1439.759,"body":", it takes time."},{"startTime":1439.759,"endTime":1441.679,"body":"Cuz you're shaping the culture Yeah."},{"startTime":1441.739,"endTime":1443.059,"body":"Of, of the organization."},{"startTime":1443.059,"endTime":1443.269,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1443.689,"endTime":1445.219,"body":"But the structure is rigid."},{"startTime":1445.279,"endTime":1446.839,"body":"You're not gonna be able to do that."},{"startTime":1447.199,"endTime":1450.479,"body":"But I like, I don't even understand I"},{"startTime":1447.199,"endTime":1450.479,"body":"don't even understand that statement."},{"startTime":1450.529,"endTime":1451.909,"body":"I understand what you're saying"},{"startTime":1452.609,"endTime":1456.414,"body":"but if somewhere, if someone were to"},{"startTime":1452.609,"endTime":1456.414,"body":"walk up to me in the street or walk up"},{"startTime":1456.474,"endTime":1460.039,"body":"or come up to me in a networking event,"},{"startTime":1456.474,"endTime":1460.039,"body":"or propose in a network event if someone"},{"startTime":1460.039,"endTime":1465.109,"body":"were to say that continuous discovery,"},{"startTime":1460.039,"endTime":1465.109,"body":"it doesn't really work in our environment"},{"startTime":1465.109,"endTime":1468.744,"body":"I would hear all that and it would"},{"startTime":1465.109,"endTime":1468.744,"body":"just zip like straight through my ears."},{"startTime":1468.804,"endTime":1470.844,"body":"cuz I'm like, well look what doesn't work."},{"startTime":1470.844,"endTime":1473.394,"body":"Like you are in continuous discovery."},{"startTime":1474.204,"endTime":1477.264,"body":"You may be engaging your development"},{"startTime":1474.204,"endTime":1477.264,"body":"team to help you with some of the"},{"startTime":1477.269,"endTime":1480.484,"body":"discovery tasks and habits, right?"},{"startTime":1480.484,"endTime":1482.614,"body":"You might be employing your"},{"startTime":1480.484,"endTime":1482.614,"body":"whole team to do discovery."},{"startTime":1483.124,"endTime":1487.774,"body":"But also it might just be you and the"},{"startTime":1483.124,"endTime":1487.774,"body":"other product managers or associate"},{"startTime":1487.774,"endTime":1491.844,"body":"product managers or whatever you have,"},{"startTime":1487.774,"endTime":1491.844,"body":"If you have the benefit of having people"},{"startTime":1491.844,"endTime":1493.314,"body":"in product management, that'd be nice."},{"startTime":1493.404,"endTime":1493.734,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1493.739,"endTime":1497.364,"body":"To have a second person or"},{"startTime":1493.739,"endTime":1497.364,"body":"whatever, or to be extended via BA"},{"startTime":1497.364,"endTime":1498.444,"body":"or something like would be nice."},{"startTime":1498.784,"endTime":1501.844,"body":"Or have a ui ux person to help"},{"startTime":1498.784,"endTime":1501.844,"body":"you, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1501.844,"endTime":1505.324,"body":"Talk to and interview customers"},{"startTime":1501.844,"endTime":1505.324,"body":"and do little tests and stuff like"},{"startTime":1505.424,"endTime":1508.694,"body":"none of that requires that you"},{"startTime":1505.424,"endTime":1508.694,"body":"actually engage the development team."},{"startTime":1508.724,"endTime":1512.099,"body":"I could think of a lot of stuff to"},{"startTime":1508.724,"endTime":1512.099,"body":"do as a product manager and never"},{"startTime":1512.099,"endTime":1517.229,"body":"even engage a development team to"},{"startTime":1512.099,"endTime":1517.229,"body":"stay ahead of the development team."},{"startTime":1517.829,"endTime":1522.539,"body":"If I'm reacting poorly to this post,"},{"startTime":1517.829,"endTime":1522.539,"body":"that's part of why is in a large part"},{"startTime":1522.589,"endTime":1527.399,"body":"of my day to day job as a product"},{"startTime":1522.589,"endTime":1527.399,"body":"manager, I'm doing experimentation."},{"startTime":1528.194,"endTime":1535.934,"body":"I'm doing tests and I'm doing research"},{"startTime":1528.194,"endTime":1535.934,"body":"all three that potentially don't"},{"startTime":1535.939,"endTime":1538.064,"body":"even involve the development team."},{"startTime":1538.784,"endTime":1544.394,"body":"And I'm doing that in order to stay well"},{"startTime":1538.784,"endTime":1544.394,"body":"ahead of where the team is at well before"},{"startTime":1544.394,"endTime":1549.914,"body":"the team gets there, I have been there"},{"startTime":1544.394,"endTime":1549.914,"body":"and I know basically what it looks like."},{"startTime":1550.194,"endTime":1553.539,"body":"If we're climbing a mountain, and the"},{"startTime":1550.194,"endTime":1553.539,"body":"team is like, Hey, why are we, why"},{"startTime":1553.539,"endTime":1555.129,"body":"are we, why are we taking this path?"},{"startTime":1555.609,"endTime":1559.509,"body":"At least I have seen the path"},{"startTime":1555.609,"endTime":1559.509,"body":"before, even if only a couple steps"},{"startTime":1559.509,"endTime":1561.339,"body":"in front of the team and I can"},{"startTime":1559.509,"endTime":1561.339,"body":"say, Well, we're taking this path"},{"startTime":1561.339,"endTime":1563.139,"body":"because, And I can give them a why."},{"startTime":1563.379,"endTime":1564.549,"body":"That's, Yeah, I agree."},{"startTime":1564.549,"endTime":1569.389,"body":"First of all, what's But that"},{"startTime":1564.549,"endTime":1569.389,"body":"is what enables that, right?"},{"startTime":1569.709,"endTime":1571.569,"body":"I is having enough rope to work with."},{"startTime":1571.749,"endTime":1575.559,"body":"If your organization says, No, you can't"},{"startTime":1571.749,"endTime":1575.559,"body":"do that, that's just wasting money."},{"startTime":1575.559,"endTime":1576.909,"body":"I need the results now."},{"startTime":1577.149,"endTime":1579.249,"body":"And so you're always"},{"startTime":1577.149,"endTime":1579.249,"body":"clamoring for something."},{"startTime":1579.549,"endTime":1582.609,"body":"You're gonna get tired pretty quickly"},{"startTime":1579.549,"endTime":1582.609,"body":"running on a hamster wheel and"},{"startTime":1582.609,"endTime":1583.929,"body":"you're gonna do what this guy did."},{"startTime":1583.934,"endTime":1587.109,"body":"It's just gonna say, Alright,"},{"startTime":1583.934,"endTime":1587.109,"body":"not making a difference here."},{"startTime":1587.169,"endTime":1587.379,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1587.439,"endTime":1590.814,"body":"I'm just gonna say yes to everybody,"},{"startTime":1587.439,"endTime":1590.814,"body":"and therefore do a disservice"},{"startTime":1590.814,"endTime":1592.884,"body":"to the field of PM in general."},{"startTime":1592.884,"endTime":1593.094,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1593.094,"endTime":1593.784,"body":"Product measurement."},{"startTime":1593.814,"endTime":1594.024,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1594.184,"endTime":1596.424,"body":"But, but, but he's not"},{"startTime":1594.184,"endTime":1596.424,"body":"doing it maliciously."},{"startTime":1596.424,"endTime":1597.114,"body":"I'm not saying that."},{"startTime":1597.144,"endTime":1597.804,"body":"I'm just saying."},{"startTime":1597.804,"endTime":1597.864,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1597.924,"endTime":1600.624,"body":"But he, what he's doing"},{"startTime":1597.924,"endTime":1600.624,"body":"for, It's good for him."},{"startTime":1600.629,"endTime":1601.974,"body":"What's he doing with the rest of his time?"},{"startTime":1601.974,"endTime":1604.574,"body":"Like take, taking naps and"},{"startTime":1601.974,"endTime":1604.574,"body":"keeping himself de-stressed?."},{"startTime":1604.589,"endTime":1605.034,"body":"Like, what?"},{"startTime":1605.214,"endTime":1606.264,"body":"Nothing wrong with that."},{"startTime":1606.864,"endTime":1610.944,"body":". I'm a big fan of naps, but,"},{"startTime":1606.864,"endTime":1610.944,"body":"Hey, listen, at 200 k, Yeah."},{"startTime":1611.094,"endTime":1612.084,"body":"I take a few naps."},{"startTime":1612.234,"endTime":1612.714,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":1612.774,"endTime":1613.194,"body":"Seriously."},{"startTime":1613.194,"endTime":1613.524,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":1613.554,"endTime":1616.945,"body":"I, I doubt that this person"},{"startTime":1613.554,"endTime":1616.945,"body":"is doing things like, like you"},{"startTime":1616.95,"endTime":1620.069,"body":"said experimentation, trials,"},{"startTime":1616.95,"endTime":1620.069,"body":"all of those sorts of things."},{"startTime":1620.069,"endTime":1621.719,"body":"It doesn't sound like that to me."},{"startTime":1622.079,"endTime":1624.389,"body":"I, and, and I'm not"},{"startTime":1622.079,"endTime":1624.389,"body":"blaming him at this stage."},{"startTime":1624.449,"endTime":1628.079,"body":"I'm saying maybe it's the environment"},{"startTime":1624.449,"endTime":1628.079,"body":"he's in, maybe it's the corporate culture"},{"startTime":1628.109,"endTime":1629.799,"body":"that restricts him from doing that?"},{"startTime":1630.139,"endTime":1634.029,"body":"luckily that's why I'm here"},{"startTime":1630.139,"endTime":1634.029,"body":"because I, I I'm on the blaming of"},{"startTime":1634.029,"endTime":1635.379,"body":"this person's side of the table."},{"startTime":1635.379,"endTime":1635.579,"body":"Yeah, it's cool."},{"startTime":1635.584,"endTime":1639.309,"body":"Like, like I'm on the blaming side"},{"startTime":1635.584,"endTime":1639.309,"body":"of the table, like Om's on the you're"},{"startTime":1639.314,"endTime":1643.539,"body":"a terrible at coaching side of the"},{"startTime":1639.314,"endTime":1643.539,"body":"table and I'm on the, you're terrible"},{"startTime":1643.599,"endTime":1645.069,"body":"at being a PM side of the table."},{"startTime":1645.189,"endTime":1648.909,"body":"Like this is not the podcast , this"},{"startTime":1645.189,"endTime":1648.909,"body":"is not the arguing Agile pod."},{"startTime":1648.939,"endTime":1653.979,"body":"This is the, the, the the Be"},{"startTime":1648.939,"endTime":1653.979,"body":"berating Agile podcast Today."},{"startTime":1654.059,"endTime":1658.889,"body":"I love how in this, in this"},{"startTime":1654.059,"endTime":1658.889,"body":"topic, when we read it, your"},{"startTime":1658.889,"endTime":1660.779,"body":"immediate first reaction was, oh."},{"startTime":1661.199,"endTime":1665.339,"body":"Maybe your coaching skills aren't"},{"startTime":1661.199,"endTime":1665.339,"body":"that great and then maybe there are"},{"startTime":1665.339,"endTime":1668.849,"body":"other people in the organization"},{"startTime":1665.339,"endTime":1668.849,"body":"that can help you kind of train"},{"startTime":1668.849,"endTime":1669.839,"body":"up in those coaching skills."},{"startTime":1669.839,"endTime":1672.719,"body":"Have you reach out to them like, I"},{"startTime":1669.839,"endTime":1672.719,"body":"don't see anything in here about that."},{"startTime":1673.049,"endTime":1674.189,"body":"or external people."},{"startTime":1674.249,"endTime":1674.489,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1674.549,"endTime":1675.449,"body":"Go get some help."},{"startTime":1675.509,"endTime":1676.499,"body":"Nothing wrong with that"},{"startTime":1676.769,"endTime":1679.829,"body":"people shouldn't feel bad about that,"},{"startTime":1676.769,"endTime":1679.829,"body":"cuz we can't be all great at everything."},{"startTime":1679.879,"endTime":1684.539,"body":"This is why, this is why I feel for"},{"startTime":1679.879,"endTime":1684.539,"body":"my career, I have such an advantage"},{"startTime":1684.539,"endTime":1688.799,"body":"now being in product, but having a"},{"startTime":1684.539,"endTime":1688.799,"body":"period in my career where I spent time"},{"startTime":1688.799,"endTime":1690.899,"body":"as a scrum master slash agile coach."},{"startTime":1691.259,"endTime":1691.439,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1691.469,"endTime":1695.899,"body":"Because I am aware of what should"},{"startTime":1691.469,"endTime":1695.899,"body":"be happening in the organization"},{"startTime":1695.899,"endTime":1697.939,"body":"for my teams, between teams."},{"startTime":1698.089,"endTime":1700.519,"body":"And when I'm in organizations"},{"startTime":1698.089,"endTime":1700.519,"body":"that basically don't have scrum"},{"startTime":1700.524,"endTime":1705.259,"body":"masters or whatever, and I'm sort"},{"startTime":1700.524,"endTime":1705.259,"body":"of aware of who's doing that job."},{"startTime":1707.239,"endTime":1710.389,"body":", but I also know that these"},{"startTime":1707.239,"endTime":1710.389,"body":"people are doing it as a side"},{"startTime":1710.389,"endTime":1712.719,"body":"job, as a tangent kind of job."},{"startTime":1712.719,"endTime":1712.809,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1712.809,"endTime":1714.069,"body":"They're doing it in their part-time."},{"startTime":1714.129,"endTime":1717.129,"body":"And I know that anybody who does"},{"startTime":1714.129,"endTime":1717.129,"body":"this stuff part-time is,  I'm not"},{"startTime":1717.129,"endTime":1720.309,"body":"gonna say they're not going to"},{"startTime":1717.129,"endTime":1720.309,"body":"succeed, I will just say they will"},{"startTime":1720.309,"endTime":1724.809,"body":"never be as effective as someone who"},{"startTime":1720.309,"endTime":1724.809,"body":"is professionally doing this job."},{"startTime":1724.899,"endTime":1725.099,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1725.099,"endTime":1726.369,"body":"It's like having a part-time developer."},{"startTime":1726.549,"endTime":1731.319,"body":"I'm a part-time developer and a part-time,"},{"startTime":1726.549,"endTime":1731.319,"body":"I don't know, janitor, whatever."},{"startTime":1731.569,"endTime":1732.059,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1732.059,"endTime":1732.179,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1732.184,"endTime":1734.739,"body":"It's part-time is one of"},{"startTime":1732.184,"endTime":1734.739,"body":"those things where people say,"},{"startTime":1734.744,"endTime":1736.119,"body":"Well, I'm gonna split my time."},{"startTime":1736.124,"endTime":1736.329,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1736.479,"endTime":1737.559,"body":"This is a age old thing."},{"startTime":1737.559,"endTime":1739.629,"body":"We've talked about it in the past as well."},{"startTime":1739.989,"endTime":1745.329,"body":"30% developing on this team and 30%"},{"startTime":1739.989,"endTime":1745.329,"body":"on that team and all that context,"},{"startTime":1745.329,"endTime":1746.859,"body":"switching costs and everything else."},{"startTime":1746.919,"endTime":1750.989,"body":"Right, Right, it, beyond all"},{"startTime":1746.919,"endTime":1750.989,"body":"of that is that inner vesting"},{"startTime":1750.989,"endTime":1752.579,"body":"which team are you vested with?"},{"startTime":1752.669,"endTime":1752.879,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1753.019,"endTime":1753.499,"body":"Really."},{"startTime":1753.499,"endTime":1753.899,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1753.904,"endTime":1757.499,"body":"You know, Oh, I'm learning great skills"},{"startTime":1753.904,"endTime":1757.499,"body":"over there, new techniques, new tools,"},{"startTime":1757.769,"endTime":1761.249,"body":"but this is the team that really matters"},{"startTime":1757.769,"endTime":1761.249,"body":"from an organizational standpoint."},{"startTime":1761.254,"endTime":1762.509,"body":"So I don't care."},{"startTime":1763.289,"endTime":1768.179,"body":"Right, Because I personally can benefit"},{"startTime":1763.289,"endTime":1768.179,"body":"by learning about, I don't know, diamonds"},{"startTime":1768.179,"endTime":1770.189,"body":"on rails, whatever the next new thing is."},{"startTime":1770.429,"endTime":1770.939,"body":"Ruby Pass."},{"startTime":1770.939,"endTime":1771.359,"body":"Ruby."},{"startTime":1771.364,"endTime":1772.019,"body":"Pass Ruby."},{"startTime":1772.199,"endTime":1776.489,"body":"So, yeah, so I, I, that whole"},{"startTime":1772.199,"endTime":1776.489,"body":"thing about time slicing people"},{"startTime":1776.489,"endTime":1782.039,"body":"across strategic initiatives that"},{"startTime":1776.489,"endTime":1782.039,"body":"really matter is a, fallacy, Right?"},{"startTime":1782.069,"endTime":1785.249,"body":"We've been saying that, but"},{"startTime":1782.069,"endTime":1785.249,"body":"it's still prevalent out there."},{"startTime":1786.699,"endTime":1787.929,"body":"Let's hit a comment or two."},{"startTime":1787.989,"endTime":1788.439,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1788.439,"endTime":1789.039,"body":"Let's take a look"},{"startTime":1789.089,"endTime":1792.729,"body":"okay, so the top comment here,"},{"startTime":1789.089,"endTime":1792.729,"body":"top comment here says I always"},{"startTime":1792.729,"endTime":1793.659,"body":"think about it like this."},{"startTime":1793.659,"endTime":1794.949,"body":"There are three versions of the job."},{"startTime":1795.279,"endTime":1796.619,"body":"Number one, outcome driven"},{"startTime":1796.799,"endTime":1802.049,"body":"PMs are responsible for finding the best"},{"startTime":1796.799,"endTime":1802.049,"body":"possible solutions to deliver on outcomes."},{"startTime":1802.259,"endTime":1802.779,"body":"This is a."},{"startTime":1803.174,"endTime":1807.824,"body":"I think the most pure version of the job,"},{"startTime":1803.174,"endTime":1807.824,"body":"because when no one is telling you what"},{"startTime":1807.824,"endTime":1812.594,"body":"to build, you really need to do things"},{"startTime":1807.824,"endTime":1812.594,"body":"like discovery, use data, design thinking,"},{"startTime":1812.654,"endTime":1814.934,"body":"et cetera to find the best ideas."},{"startTime":1815.384,"endTime":1819.014,"body":"Number two, you're held to"},{"startTime":1815.384,"endTime":1819.014,"body":"outcomes, but other people"},{"startTime":1819.019,"endTime":1821.084,"body":"completely dictate what you build."},{"startTime":1821.174,"endTime":1824.864,"body":"Okay, so the staff, it's the second"},{"startTime":1821.174,"endTime":1824.864,"body":"version, The stats don't match what, Okay."},{"startTime":1825.164,"endTime":1830.384,"body":"And then number three, your version,"},{"startTime":1825.164,"endTime":1830.384,"body":"I think in, in parenthesis, where"},{"startTime":1830.384,"endTime":1831.644,"body":"people just tell you what to do."},{"startTime":1831.764,"endTime":1836.054,"body":"So order taker pm that so is his"},{"startTime":1831.764,"endTime":1836.054,"body":"summary of what he thinks that"},{"startTime":1836.054,"endTime":1837.164,"body":"three different types of PMs."},{"startTime":1837.494,"endTime":1841.349,"body":"And then, he gives his, feedback on what"},{"startTime":1837.494,"endTime":1841.349,"body":"he thinks is, number one, the outcome"},{"startTime":1841.349,"endTime":1846.349,"body":"driven PM who does things based on what"},{"startTime":1841.349,"endTime":1846.349,"body":"they believe  their findings about the"},{"startTime":1846.349,"endTime":1850.259,"body":"outcomes and their direction based on"},{"startTime":1846.349,"endTime":1850.259,"body":"outcomes he thinks is most rewarding."},{"startTime":1850.409,"endTime":1854.819,"body":"Number two, he describes as hell on"},{"startTime":1850.409,"endTime":1854.819,"body":"earth  being, being held to outcomes."},{"startTime":1854.819,"endTime":1859.799,"body":"But then judged against basically the"},{"startTime":1854.819,"endTime":1859.799,"body":"feelings of the whims and desires."},{"startTime":1859.799,"endTime":1859.859,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1860.029,"endTime":1860.149,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1860.159,"endTime":1863.279,"body":"Which I will, I will say like number"},{"startTime":1860.159,"endTime":1863.279,"body":"two, he, I think he's, he's right, he's"},{"startTime":1863.279,"endTime":1867.419,"body":"pretty dead on number two of, I've been"},{"startTime":1863.279,"endTime":1867.419,"body":"a lot of organizations that are like,"},{"startTime":1867.419,"endTime":1872.279,"body":"like they tried to be outcome driven with"},{"startTime":1867.419,"endTime":1872.279,"body":"data driven, outcome driven, whatever."},{"startTime":1873.029,"endTime":1877.824,"body":"But when it comes to the yearly review,"},{"startTime":1873.029,"endTime":1877.824,"body":"it's a lot of like, Mm, we heard this and,"},{"startTime":1877.874,"endTime":1879.944,"body":"this manager thinks this and whatever."},{"startTime":1879.944,"endTime":1881.264,"body":"And like, not a lot of stats."},{"startTime":1881.294,"endTime":1881.354,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1881.594,"endTime":1884.184,"body":"In them yearly reviews which"},{"startTime":1881.594,"endTime":1884.184,"body":"is a whole different podcast."},{"startTime":1884.184,"endTime":1886.009,"body":"But number three exactly"},{"startTime":1884.184,"endTime":1886.009,"body":"what you're saying."},{"startTime":1886.189,"endTime":1890.119,"body":"Not a bad way to make a paycheck if"},{"startTime":1886.189,"endTime":1890.119,"body":"you can just accept that it's an awful"},{"startTime":1890.119,"endTime":1892.399,"body":"way to build software, but who cares?"},{"startTime":1892.469,"endTime":1894.569,"body":"I wanna say a couple of"},{"startTime":1892.469,"endTime":1894.569,"body":"things about that, right?"},{"startTime":1895.049,"endTime":1897.569,"body":"I think the guy nailed"},{"startTime":1895.049,"endTime":1897.569,"body":"the three different types."},{"startTime":1897.689,"endTime":1903.299,"body":"However, I do feel like where he talks"},{"startTime":1897.689,"endTime":1903.299,"body":"about experimentation, it isn't about"},{"startTime":1903.299,"endTime":1905.984,"body":"the person wanting to experiment."},{"startTime":1906.194,"endTime":1906.254,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1906.404,"endTime":1906.734,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1906.734,"endTime":1910.654,"body":"It's about the organizational DNA"},{"startTime":1906.734,"endTime":1910.654,"body":"allowing for that, encouraging"},{"startTime":1910.659,"endTime":1912.074,"body":"for failures to happen."},{"startTime":1912.314,"endTime":1915.104,"body":"Cause when you experiment, not"},{"startTime":1912.314,"endTime":1915.104,"body":"every experiment is a success."},{"startTime":1915.434,"endTime":1916.124,"body":"So what?"},{"startTime":1916.124,"endTime":1919.094,"body":"You try something and you"},{"startTime":1916.124,"endTime":1919.094,"body":"demonstrate what you learn from it."},{"startTime":1919.184,"endTime":1919.334,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1919.544,"endTime":1924.044,"body":"That, I don't know if this person has,"},{"startTime":1919.544,"endTime":1924.044,"body":"in whatever company they work for, I"},{"startTime":1924.044,"endTime":1929.384,"body":"doubt it because they are now effectively"},{"startTime":1924.044,"endTime":1929.384,"body":"to their own account, an order taker."},{"startTime":1929.444,"endTime":1932.974,"body":"We're at this point in the podcast where"},{"startTime":1929.444,"endTime":1932.974,"body":"I'm starting to wonder if they're just"},{"startTime":1932.979,"endTime":1938.764,"body":"not good at, data driven evidence based"},{"startTime":1932.979,"endTime":1938.764,"body":"type of, I suspect they're not, if they've"},{"startTime":1938.764,"endTime":1940.714,"body":"just been sourced in from an MBA class."},{"startTime":1941.044,"endTime":1941.344,"body":"Seriously."},{"startTime":1941.584,"endTime":1944.399,"body":"But, but I mean, I work with"},{"startTime":1941.584,"endTime":1944.399,"body":"a lot of salespeople who are"},{"startTime":1944.399,"endTime":1946.469,"body":"very passionate and very good."},{"startTime":1946.559,"endTime":1946.649,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1946.889,"endTime":1948.059,"body":"about making their cases."},{"startTime":1948.064,"endTime":1953.149,"body":"Hey, we need to add PDF support for, for"},{"startTime":1948.064,"endTime":1953.149,"body":"this mobile app where this mobile app"},{"startTime":1953.149,"endTime":1958.069,"body":"can spit out an export in the CSV and"},{"startTime":1953.149,"endTime":1958.069,"body":"Excel and, share this file or whatever."},{"startTime":1958.219,"endTime":1960.109,"body":"But also we need to add pdf."},{"startTime":1960.409,"endTime":1960.739,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1960.739,"endTime":1965.429,"body":"Well  like CSVs and Excel you can import"},{"startTime":1960.739,"endTime":1965.429,"body":"in your system and immediately use them."},{"startTime":1965.479,"endTime":1968.749,"body":"PDFs can't really export and,"},{"startTime":1965.479,"endTime":1968.749,"body":"and import into another system."},{"startTime":1968.749,"endTime":1970.909,"body":"Like what, why would we do PDFs?"},{"startTime":1971.089,"endTime":1974.334,"body":"Well, the customer workflow is this"},{"startTime":1971.089,"endTime":1974.334,"body":"and that with PDFs and this and"},{"startTime":1974.544,"endTime":1975.534,"body":"this and that and this and that."},{"startTime":1975.654,"endTime":1976.974,"body":"Basically they're trying to make a sale."},{"startTime":1977.184,"endTime":1979.944,"body":"They're trying to leverage a feature"},{"startTime":1977.184,"endTime":1979.944,"body":"that we don't have to try to get you"},{"startTime":1979.944,"endTime":1981.744,"body":"to build it in order to make that sale."},{"startTime":1982.254,"endTime":1986.214,"body":"And the salesperson is very good at"},{"startTime":1982.254,"endTime":1986.214,"body":"understanding the customer workflow."},{"startTime":1987.024,"endTime":1988.584,"body":"In order to make the sale."},{"startTime":1988.674,"endTime":1988.914,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1989.364,"endTime":1989.604,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1989.604,"endTime":1993.234,"body":"The product version of that is, Okay,"},{"startTime":1989.604,"endTime":1993.234,"body":"I, I'll pick up on that, that this,"},{"startTime":1993.264,"endTime":1997.614,"body":"that the salesperson is operating"},{"startTime":1993.264,"endTime":1997.614,"body":"in this sphere and start looking"},{"startTime":1997.614,"endTime":2001.214,"body":"at other adjacent customers in that"},{"startTime":1997.614,"endTime":2001.214,"body":"market space or maybe other customers"},{"startTime":2001.214,"endTime":2002.804,"body":"that you could make additional sales."},{"startTime":2002.809,"endTime":2003.944,"body":"Should we have this functionality?"},{"startTime":2004.094,"endTime":2004.244,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2004.334,"endTime":2007.844,"body":"And start exploring like, Hey, here's"},{"startTime":2004.334,"endTime":2007.844,"body":"the, here's the user interface."},{"startTime":2008.504,"endTime":2009.854,"body":"How much do you think this would be worth?"},{"startTime":2009.854,"endTime":2010.184,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2010.184,"endTime":2013.844,"body":"Maybe send some surveys out, maybe,"},{"startTime":2010.184,"endTime":2013.844,"body":"maybe send some mockups up with"},{"startTime":2013.849,"endTime":2016.394,"body":"the, with the feature there and"},{"startTime":2013.849,"endTime":2016.394,"body":"see if customers change their mind."},{"startTime":2016.724,"endTime":2019.484,"body":"I don't know, like how hard is"},{"startTime":2016.724,"endTime":2019.484,"body":"it to mock up a screen and send"},{"startTime":2019.489,"endTime":2020.594,"body":"it to half a dozen customers?"},{"startTime":2021.479,"endTime":2025.679,"body":"I mean, you could leverage your"},{"startTime":2021.479,"endTime":2025.679,"body":"salesperson and their contacts"},{"startTime":2025.919,"endTime":2027.179,"body":"to, to do that like that."},{"startTime":2027.179,"endTime":2027.239,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2027.269,"endTime":2029.339,"body":"Again, none, none of what I just said."},{"startTime":2029.879,"endTime":2032.879,"body":"What I just said was pretty, It"},{"startTime":2029.879,"endTime":2032.879,"body":"was pretty farfetched, right?"},{"startTime":2032.879,"endTime":2034.949,"body":"It was pretty, pretty Meta"},{"startTime":2032.879,"endTime":2034.949,"body":"up, pretty up in the air."},{"startTime":2035.399,"endTime":2040.529,"body":"However, it requires zero time"},{"startTime":2035.399,"endTime":2040.529,"body":"from the development team."},{"startTime":2041.159,"endTime":2043.459,"body":"Everything I just said requires"},{"startTime":2041.159,"endTime":2043.459,"body":"zero time from the development team."},{"startTime":2043.459,"endTime":2046.959,"body":"So what I'm saying is like the more"},{"startTime":2043.459,"endTime":2046.959,"body":"I'm reading, the more we talk about"},{"startTime":2046.959,"endTime":2050.169,"body":"this post, the more I'm suspecting"},{"startTime":2046.959,"endTime":2050.169,"body":"like he's just not good at crafting"},{"startTime":2050.539,"endTime":2054.439,"body":"software development style argument."},{"startTime":2054.729,"endTime":2054.969,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2054.969,"endTime":2060.699,"body":"So he may be somebody who comes from"},{"startTime":2054.969,"endTime":2060.699,"body":"a non-software environment, right?"},{"startTime":2061.119,"endTime":2063.489,"body":"as a product person into"},{"startTime":2061.119,"endTime":2063.489,"body":"a software environment."},{"startTime":2063.494,"endTime":2067.479,"body":"Because he said he is been trying for"},{"startTime":2063.494,"endTime":2067.479,"body":"years and it hasn't worked, right?"},{"startTime":2067.759,"endTime":2074.239,"body":"I think without really giving it, quote"},{"startTime":2067.759,"endTime":2074.239,"body":"unquote his best shot, he seems to"},{"startTime":2074.239,"endTime":2077.599,"body":"be somebody who says, Hey, who cares?"},{"startTime":2077.639,"endTime":2079.619,"body":"I'm getting paid handsomely for this."},{"startTime":2079.679,"endTime":2082.269,"body":"I'm just gonna say, Yes sir."},{"startTime":2082.649,"endTime":2083.639,"body":"Yes ma'am."},{"startTime":2083.669,"endTime":2083.939,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2083.939,"endTime":2085.229,"body":"Just be the yes man."},{"startTime":2085.559,"endTime":2089.159,"body":"And that's a terrible shame because"},{"startTime":2085.559,"endTime":2089.159,"body":"you're really not helping the"},{"startTime":2089.159,"endTime":2090.389,"body":"company you're working with mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2090.779,"endTime":2094.859,"body":"in the role that they've appointed"},{"startTime":2090.779,"endTime":2094.859,"body":"you for, which is product management."},{"startTime":2094.859,"endTime":2094.949,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2095.279,"endTime":2099.899,"body":"So what happens then, if they replace"},{"startTime":2095.279,"endTime":2099.899,"body":"this person, which is somebody"},{"startTime":2099.904,"endTime":2104.939,"body":"that is way less paid than 200 K,"},{"startTime":2099.904,"endTime":2104.939,"body":"who simply says whatever order it"},{"startTime":2104.939,"endTime":2106.409,"body":"is, I'll just entering the system."},{"startTime":2106.509,"endTime":2111.759,"body":"I would argue if slash when this product"},{"startTime":2106.509,"endTime":2111.759,"body":"and or company, cuz it could be either,"},{"startTime":2111.759,"endTime":2114.934,"body":"it could be the, the, the specific"},{"startTime":2111.759,"endTime":2114.934,"body":"product or feature he or she maintains"},{"startTime":2115.384,"endTime":2118.834,"body":"or it could be the company itself,"},{"startTime":2115.384,"endTime":2118.834,"body":"assuming that like, let's just say that"},{"startTime":2119.134,"endTime":2122.704,"body":"we've been wrong the entire time and"},{"startTime":2119.134,"endTime":2122.704,"body":"they don't work for a FAANG company."},{"startTime":2122.764,"endTime":2125.554,"body":"They work for an SMB FinTech"},{"startTime":2122.764,"endTime":2125.554,"body":"or something like that."},{"startTime":2125.554,"endTime":2125.854,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2125.974,"endTime":2126.334,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2126.394,"endTime":2129.199,"body":"And they just, they're just overpaid"},{"startTime":2126.394,"endTime":2129.199,"body":"basically for their position."},{"startTime":2129.849,"endTime":2130.839,"body":"you're absolutely right."},{"startTime":2130.839,"endTime":2133.499,"body":"What happens when the company"},{"startTime":2130.839,"endTime":2133.499,"body":"or product runs into some"},{"startTime":2133.499,"endTime":2136.939,"body":"rocky times like gonna get cut."},{"startTime":2136.939,"endTime":2138.079,"body":"This person's gonna get cut."},{"startTime":2138.979,"endTime":2142.909,"body":"If he is smart, he would jump before he"},{"startTime":2138.979,"endTime":2142.909,"body":"gets cut, but Yeah, I know what you mean."},{"startTime":2143.059,"endTime":2147.509,"body":"Or if he is really, really smart, he"},{"startTime":2143.059,"endTime":2147.509,"body":"would step aside and say timber right?"},{"startTime":2148.079,"endTime":2152.239,"body":"Like, okay, impending doom, and"},{"startTime":2148.079,"endTime":2152.239,"body":"then suggest something that helps,"},{"startTime":2153.219,"endTime":2156.824,"body":"at least alleviate some of the"},{"startTime":2153.219,"endTime":2156.824,"body":"pain and take all of the credit."},{"startTime":2156.934,"endTime":2161.074,"body":"I could see this person getting cut and"},{"startTime":2156.934,"endTime":2161.074,"body":"the responsibility handed over to like"},{"startTime":2161.074,"endTime":2162.544,"body":"a lead developer or something like that."},{"startTime":2162.574,"endTime":2163.324,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2163.324,"endTime":2163.594,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2163.804,"endTime":2163.984,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2163.984,"endTime":2164.974,"body":"Somebody, Okay."},{"startTime":2164.974,"endTime":2168.694,"body":"Say Junior on the pay scale, at"},{"startTime":2164.974,"endTime":2168.694,"body":"least product management doesn't"},{"startTime":2168.694,"endTime":2169.834,"body":"work here, is what I'm saying."},{"startTime":2169.834,"endTime":2170.584,"body":"Right, Right, right."},{"startTime":2170.734,"endTime":2171.604,"body":"Oh, that's, yeah."},{"startTime":2171.664,"endTime":2173.344,"body":"Product management doesn't work here."},{"startTime":2173.854,"endTime":2174.574,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2174.574,"endTime":2180.124,"body":"Product management doesn't work"},{"startTime":2174.574,"endTime":2180.124,"body":"or product management, doers of"},{"startTime":2180.124,"endTime":2182.644,"body":"product management don't work here."},{"startTime":2182.704,"endTime":2186.214,"body":"I can see 'em blaming it all on"},{"startTime":2182.704,"endTime":2186.214,"body":"uh, Scrum or Agile or whatever."},{"startTime":2186.814,"endTime":2187.024,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2187.024,"endTime":2190.174,"body":"I probably don't understand what that"},{"startTime":2187.024,"endTime":2190.174,"body":"is, but Yes, yes, they can do that."},{"startTime":2190.534,"endTime":2195.754,"body":"They can say, How can I possibly"},{"startTime":2190.534,"endTime":2195.754,"body":"deliver something when I have a two"},{"startTime":2195.754,"endTime":2197.254,"body":"week period to show something in?"},{"startTime":2197.314,"endTime":2197.674,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2197.914,"endTime":2200.074,"body":"Or you gimme three of"},{"startTime":2197.914,"endTime":2200.074,"body":"those, but still, Yeah."},{"startTime":2200.434,"endTime":2202.504,"body":"You know, I really need much, much longer."},{"startTime":2203.029,"endTime":2203.359,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2203.569,"endTime":2204.649,"body":"So it doesn't work here."},{"startTime":2204.709,"endTime":2205.549,"body":"Yeah, it doesn't work for us."},{"startTime":2205.579,"endTime":2205.819,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2205.909,"endTime":2209.209,"body":"But there's many reasons why I could,"},{"startTime":2205.909,"endTime":2209.209,"body":"I could easily see this one leading"},{"startTime":2209.209,"endTime":2213.649,"body":"into product management slash Agile"},{"startTime":2209.209,"endTime":2213.649,"body":"doesn't work here slash Scrum."},{"startTime":2213.709,"endTime":2213.979,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2213.984,"endTime":2216.479,"body":"And I could easily see this"},{"startTime":2213.984,"endTime":2216.479,"body":"one leading into we gotta do"},{"startTime":2216.484,"endTime":2217.709,"body":"all the requirements up front."},{"startTime":2218.039,"endTime":2221.939,"body":"We gotta do all the development up"},{"startTime":2218.039,"endTime":2221.939,"body":"front, take six months, code our"},{"startTime":2221.939,"endTime":2224.159,"body":"thing, do a big bang deployment."},{"startTime":2224.309,"endTime":2227.099,"body":"We need to bring in, bring in"},{"startTime":2224.309,"endTime":2227.099,"body":"a technical product manager."},{"startTime":2227.149,"endTime":2228.889,"body":"I could easily see this leading to that."},{"startTime":2228.919,"endTime":2229.099,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2229.429,"endTime":2232.029,"body":"especially if this person"},{"startTime":2229.429,"endTime":2232.029,"body":"he didn't say anything."},{"startTime":2232.029,"endTime":2235.479,"body":"He or she doesn't say anything about"},{"startTime":2232.029,"endTime":2235.479,"body":"the number of teams that work for"},{"startTime":2235.479,"endTime":2236.949,"body":"them or if they even have teams."},{"startTime":2236.949,"endTime":2239.259,"body":"Actually, actually now, now"},{"startTime":2236.949,"endTime":2239.259,"body":"that I'm now thinking about it."},{"startTime":2239.339,"endTime":2239.899,"body":"Yeah, good point."},{"startTime":2240.039,"endTime":2241.419,"body":"I don't even know if they have teams."},{"startTime":2242.019,"endTime":2245.239,"body":"Something that I've seen with"},{"startTime":2242.019,"endTime":2245.239,"body":"the Silicon Valley PMs is they"},{"startTime":2245.269,"endTime":2249.199,"body":"like, they're like, Oh, I'll just"},{"startTime":2245.269,"endTime":2249.199,"body":"partner with my engineering lead."},{"startTime":2249.439,"endTime":2252.229,"body":"And then basically the PM"},{"startTime":2249.439,"endTime":2252.229,"body":"and the engineering lead"},{"startTime":2252.259,"endTime":2253.549,"body":"talk and decide what to do."},{"startTime":2253.554,"endTime":2257.509,"body":"And then the engineering lead just goes"},{"startTime":2253.554,"endTime":2257.509,"body":"back to a, a, a gaggle of developers."},{"startTime":2257.514,"endTime":2259.459,"body":"It says, Okay, you're gonna build"},{"startTime":2257.514,"endTime":2259.459,"body":"this and you're gonna build this,"},{"startTime":2259.459,"endTime":2260.389,"body":"and you're gonna build this and that."},{"startTime":2260.389,"endTime":2262.099,"body":"That's their, that's their method Yeah."},{"startTime":2262.099,"endTime":2262.549,"body":"Of development."},{"startTime":2262.549,"endTime":2267.289,"body":"So if they're that style of company,"},{"startTime":2262.549,"endTime":2267.289,"body":"it doesn't strike me that any of"},{"startTime":2267.289,"endTime":2268.849,"body":"this is outta the ordinary, actually."},{"startTime":2268.879,"endTime":2272.439,"body":"Not like a, if they're everything"},{"startTime":2268.879,"endTime":2272.439,"body":"is completely in focus."},{"startTime":2272.439,"endTime":2273.759,"body":"If they're that style of company."},{"startTime":2274.899,"endTime":2277.749,"body":"Also, if they're that style of"},{"startTime":2274.899,"endTime":2277.749,"body":"a company and you're a PM and"},{"startTime":2277.749,"endTime":2280.919,"body":"you're getting paid 200 k oh boy,"},{"startTime":2277.749,"endTime":2280.919,"body":"you should really be worried."},{"startTime":2281.699,"endTime":2282.149,"body":"Agreed."},{"startTime":2282.149,"endTime":2282.689,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":2282.689,"endTime":2285.815,"body":"So now we're saying it's really"},{"startTime":2282.689,"endTime":2285.815,"body":"the org not so much this person and"},{"startTime":2285.815,"endTime":2287.765,"body":"his co or her competency, right?"},{"startTime":2288.305,"endTime":2288.695,"body":"Could be."},{"startTime":2288.725,"endTime":2293.955,"body":"But I, I have a sneaking feeling that if"},{"startTime":2288.725,"endTime":2293.955,"body":"that were the case, they would be some."},{"startTime":2294.53,"endTime":2298.64,"body":"Really close up scrutiny"},{"startTime":2294.53,"endTime":2298.64,"body":"on what is being delivered."},{"startTime":2298.64,"endTime":2298.73,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2298.97,"endTime":2302.6,"body":", like people aren't gonna just simply"},{"startTime":2298.97,"endTime":2302.6,"body":"let you work for many, many months."},{"startTime":2302.96,"endTime":2303.38,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2303.71,"endTime":2307.49,"body":"And all you're doing is saying yes"},{"startTime":2303.71,"endTime":2307.49,"body":"because that can only get you so far."},{"startTime":2308.06,"endTime":2311.51,"body":"Cuz you can't say yes to everything, so"},{"startTime":2308.06,"endTime":2311.51,"body":"you can't possibly deliver on everything."},{"startTime":2311.87,"endTime":2315.44,"body":"So when you do fail, questions"},{"startTime":2311.87,"endTime":2315.44,"body":"should be asked, I would imagine."},{"startTime":2315.49,"endTime":2319.57,"body":"By people higher up and say, Well,"},{"startTime":2315.49,"endTime":2319.57,"body":"but you said or and you said, and you"},{"startTime":2319.57,"endTime":2324.4,"body":"said, and you only delivered one of"},{"startTime":2319.57,"endTime":2324.4,"body":"those, so it would soon come out in the"},{"startTime":2324.4,"endTime":2326.8,"body":"wash that you are just taking orders."},{"startTime":2327.23,"endTime":2329.66,"body":"Unless they're very adept at"},{"startTime":2327.23,"endTime":2329.66,"body":"blaming others all the time."},{"startTime":2329.69,"endTime":2330.83,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":2330.83,"endTime":2332.03,"body":"That's where, that's where I was going."},{"startTime":2332.03,"endTime":2332.51,"body":"I was, Yeah."},{"startTime":2332.515,"endTime":2332.55,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2333.56,"endTime":2335.72,"body":"think about the culture"},{"startTime":2333.56,"endTime":2335.72,"body":"where they don't have a team."},{"startTime":2336.11,"endTime":2336.8,"body":"They don't have a team."},{"startTime":2336.8,"endTime":2338.81,"body":"They don't go to daily scrums,"},{"startTime":2336.8,"endTime":2338.81,"body":"they don't have refinements."},{"startTime":2339.05,"endTime":2341.51,"body":"They just pass everything to their"},{"startTime":2339.05,"endTime":2341.51,"body":"engineering manager, and then the"},{"startTime":2341.88,"endTime":2342.95,"body":"engineering manager engages the team."},{"startTime":2343.13,"endTime":2347.51,"body":"So now they just say, Well,"},{"startTime":2343.13,"endTime":2347.51,"body":"the dev team failed us."},{"startTime":2347.57,"endTime":2347.84,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2348.42,"endTime":2353.27,"body":"Om told me that the dev team could deliver"},{"startTime":2348.42,"endTime":2353.27,"body":"and . So now they go to Om and it's"},{"startTime":2353.27,"endTime":2358.905,"body":"like, Hey, Om, listen  your new yearly"},{"startTime":2353.27,"endTime":2358.905,"body":"goals are you have to deliver 90% of the"},{"startTime":2358.905,"endTime":2360.615,"body":"features you say you're gonna commit to."},{"startTime":2360.62,"endTime":2362.265,"body":"You gotta deliver 'em in the sprint."},{"startTime":2362.265,"endTime":2364.785,"body":"So now we're gonna be judging"},{"startTime":2362.265,"endTime":2364.785,"body":"you based off of if you"},{"startTime":2364.785,"endTime":2366.585,"body":"committed the team committed."},{"startTime":2366.795,"endTime":2367.845,"body":"Did they deliver?"},{"startTime":2367.935,"endTime":2368.025,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2368.025,"endTime":2372.175,"body":"So we're like, that's your new"},{"startTime":2368.025,"endTime":2372.175,"body":"OKR is my, my objective is you"},{"startTime":2372.175,"endTime":2373.345,"body":"deliver what I say, you're gonna."},{"startTime":2373.87,"endTime":2376.78,"body":"And the key results is you"},{"startTime":2373.87,"endTime":2376.78,"body":"delivered what I'm gonna say You do."},{"startTime":2376.93,"endTime":2378.13,"body":"We're doing OKRs now."},{"startTime":2378.34,"endTime":2379.75,"body":"You like, you like my"},{"startTime":2378.34,"endTime":2379.75,"body":"you know, like my, Yeah."},{"startTime":2379.98,"endTime":2380.92,"body":"I, I love, I love that."},{"startTime":2380.92,"endTime":2381.16,"body":"Great."},{"startTime":2381.19,"endTime":2381.82,"body":"I love that."},{"startTime":2381.82,"endTime":2382.24,"body":"That's awesome."},{"startTime":2382.33,"endTime":2384.215,"body":"That that'll be a 15"},{"startTime":2382.33,"endTime":2384.215,"body":"second short right there."},{"startTime":2384.265,"endTime":2385.075,"body":"Hey, hey."},{"startTime":2385.08,"endTime":2385.345,"body":"We're go."},{"startTime":2386.065,"endTime":2387.11,"body":"Hey, got a great idea."},{"startTime":2387.11,"endTime":2389.095,"body":"Om, we're gonna do OKRs"},{"startTime":2387.11,"endTime":2389.095,"body":"for our development."},{"startTime":2389.215,"endTime":2390.805,"body":"My o in the, Okay."},{"startTime":2390.805,"endTime":2393.415,"body":"The objective is you deliver"},{"startTime":2390.805,"endTime":2393.415,"body":"everything I say, and the key"},{"startTime":2393.415,"endTime":2394.855,"body":"result is, did you deliver it?"},{"startTime":2394.855,"endTime":2395.455,"body":"Yes or no?"},{"startTime":2395.815,"endTime":2396.685,"body":"How do you like that?"},{"startTime":2398.395,"endTime":2399.535,"body":"Uh, yeah."},{"startTime":2399.745,"endTime":2401.535,"body":"Can we just do KPIs instead?"},{"startTime":2403.965,"endTime":2404.745,"body":"? What does that mean?"},{"startTime":2404.835,"endTime":2405.405,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":2405.555,"endTime":2409.485,"body":"I'm deflecting because obviously"},{"startTime":2405.555,"endTime":2409.485,"body":"they're not OKRs then nothing's"},{"startTime":2409.49,"endTime":2410.805,"body":"objective about it, right?"},{"startTime":2410.81,"endTime":2414.505,"body":"We haven't defined what key results"},{"startTime":2410.81,"endTime":2414.505,"body":"mean or what constitutes a result."},{"startTime":2414.505,"endTime":2419.545,"body":"But coming back to, the main topic"},{"startTime":2414.505,"endTime":2419.545,"body":"here, people like this are very"},{"startTime":2419.575,"endTime":2425.375,"body":"adept at tap dancing, corporate tap"},{"startTime":2419.575,"endTime":2425.375,"body":"dancing, or, Walking on ice, basically."},{"startTime":2425.375,"endTime":2425.615,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2425.645,"endTime":2428.165,"body":"You're just tiptoeing on sheets of ice."},{"startTime":2428.225,"endTime":2431.835,"body":"You make sure you stay airborne"},{"startTime":2428.225,"endTime":2431.835,"body":"or, or land born float."},{"startTime":2432.955,"endTime":2435.515,"body":"You make sure you don't"},{"startTime":2432.955,"endTime":2435.515,"body":"like crash through the ice."},{"startTime":2435.545,"endTime":2435.665,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2435.885,"endTime":2437.745,"body":", because that is not a pleasant experience."},{"startTime":2437.775,"endTime":2437.835,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2438.195,"endTime":2441.975,"body":"some people are very good at that"},{"startTime":2438.195,"endTime":2441.975,"body":"and they, they take it to an art form"},{"startTime":2442.345,"endTime":2443.965,"body":"and indeed make a living out of this."},{"startTime":2443.965,"endTime":2447.475,"body":"And it sounds like this"},{"startTime":2443.965,"endTime":2447.475,"body":"person is doing that."},{"startTime":2448.195,"endTime":2453.745,"body":"Whoever you are, feel free to let us"},{"startTime":2448.195,"endTime":2453.745,"body":"know on our podcast if you'd like to"},{"startTime":2453.745,"endTime":2457.045,"body":"come on and talk about some of the"},{"startTime":2453.745,"endTime":2457.045,"body":"stuff that you've posted out there."},{"startTime":2457.095,"endTime":2460.18,"body":"I would love to engage in a dialogue"},{"startTime":2457.095,"endTime":2460.18,"body":"with you, I would love that."},{"startTime":2460.39,"endTime":2461.47,"body":"I would love it."},{"startTime":2462.16,"endTime":2464.41,"body":"Especially if you're buying"},{"startTime":2462.16,"endTime":2464.41,"body":"the drinks, which you would be."}]}