{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.041,"endTime":2.641,"body":"if you're moving from a role either"},{"startTime":0.041,"endTime":2.641,"body":"internally or moving to a different"},{"startTime":2.645,"endTime":4.52,"body":"job,  and you're going from a"},{"startTime":2.645,"endTime":4.52,"body":"position where you're a product"},{"startTime":4.52,"endTime":6.32,"body":"owner to being a product manager."},{"startTime":6.445,"endTime":8.57,"body":"One of the first things I would"},{"startTime":6.445,"endTime":8.57,"body":"expect that you're going to deal"},{"startTime":8.57,"endTime":12.437,"body":"with is you're going from a place"},{"startTime":8.57,"endTime":12.437,"body":"where you were assigned things."},{"startTime":12.829,"endTime":16.41,"body":"To a place where you either have to"},{"startTime":12.829,"endTime":16.41,"body":"choose the best options  or you have"},{"startTime":16.41,"endTime":19.31,"body":"to make a case to get something new,"},{"startTime":16.41,"endTime":19.31,"body":"whereas you didn't do that when you"},{"startTime":19.31,"endTime":21.156,"body":"were a PO and I wanna start with it."},{"startTime":21.206,"endTime":22.231,"body":"I have two parts of this."},{"startTime":22.456,"endTime":24.806,"body":"I have teams, there's one part"},{"startTime":22.456,"endTime":24.806,"body":"of this, and the other part of"},{"startTime":24.806,"endTime":25.781,"body":"this is products and features."},{"startTime":26.198,"endTime":30.136,"body":"I wanna start with teams because I"},{"startTime":26.198,"endTime":30.136,"body":"feel the majority of people that step"},{"startTime":30.136,"endTime":34.853,"body":"into product owner positions it goes"},{"startTime":30.136,"endTime":34.853,"body":"something like this hey Stormy welcome"},{"startTime":34.857,"endTime":37.086,"body":"to our company and here's your team."},{"startTime":37.47,"endTime":39.19,"body":"They're the ones that are gonna"},{"startTime":37.47,"endTime":39.19,"body":"be delivering your product."},{"startTime":39.349,"endTime":39.949,"body":", make it happen."},{"startTime":40.132,"endTime":42.584,"body":"Or the other case is like"},{"startTime":40.132,"endTime":42.584,"body":"Stormy , thanks for being."},{"startTime":43.0,"endTime":44.4,"body":"Hardworking PO on our team."},{"startTime":44.425,"endTime":46.754,"body":"we're gonna give you this other team"},{"startTime":44.425,"endTime":46.754,"body":"now, and you'll have two teams you are"},{"startTime":46.754,"endTime":50.279,"body":"assigned things rather than they come to"},{"startTime":46.754,"endTime":50.279,"body":"you and say, What would be the best case?"},{"startTime":50.404,"endTime":53.902,"body":"And work with you to either scale"},{"startTime":50.404,"endTime":53.902,"body":"or divide the business or segment"},{"startTime":53.902,"endTime":54.802,"body":"things inside the business."},{"startTime":54.802,"endTime":55.202,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":55.383,"endTime":55.558,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":55.758,"endTime":58.633,"body":"I do do  and I will say"},{"startTime":55.758,"endTime":58.633,"body":"I, I know, I really do."},{"startTime":58.633,"endTime":61.758,"body":"And I, So what I would say is I"},{"startTime":58.633,"endTime":61.758,"body":"I would agree with you that, that"},{"startTime":61.758,"endTime":63.833,"body":"is the the most common scenario."},{"startTime":64.249,"endTime":69.224,"body":"I would also say in my experience"},{"startTime":64.249,"endTime":69.224,"body":"and  my product owner experience"},{"startTime":69.224,"endTime":71.749,"body":"is, is, is far more than my"},{"startTime":69.224,"endTime":71.749,"body":"product management experience."},{"startTime":71.795,"endTime":74.77,"body":"From a product owner per"},{"startTime":71.795,"endTime":74.77,"body":"experience, that is the most common."},{"startTime":74.895,"endTime":74.995,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":75.07,"endTime":75.32,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":75.362,"endTime":79.312,"body":"So you're a product owner, you started a"},{"startTime":75.362,"endTime":79.312,"body":"company and they say, Here's your team."},{"startTime":79.387,"endTime":79.562,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":79.937,"endTime":80.237,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":80.237,"endTime":82.212,"body":"Or here's your multiple teams."},{"startTime":82.387,"endTime":83.087,"body":"Uh, you're right, you're right."},{"startTime":83.162,"endTime":85.312,"body":"So those so no choices given."},{"startTime":85.662,"endTime":86.587,"body":"figure it out."},{"startTime":86.87,"endTime":90.37,"body":"You learn, learn what they know,"},{"startTime":86.87,"endTime":90.37,"body":"where they're at, how they work,"},{"startTime":90.374,"endTime":92.07,"body":"current state, and, and fix it."},{"startTime":92.07,"endTime":92.145,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":92.562,"endTime":95.787,"body":"What I can say is to agree with you."},{"startTime":96.203,"endTime":100.787,"body":"Seems to be the most, I mean, the"},{"startTime":96.203,"endTime":100.787,"body":"most common way in which, which those,"},{"startTime":100.837,"endTime":105.587,"body":"that allocation of duties is done"},{"startTime":100.837,"endTime":105.587,"body":"in regards to teams assigned to pos."},{"startTime":105.633,"endTime":111.524,"body":"However, the best case scenario and"},{"startTime":105.633,"endTime":111.524,"body":"what I have seen most positively,"},{"startTime":111.574,"endTime":117.166,"body":"and this does take some risk on"},{"startTime":111.574,"endTime":117.166,"body":"the part of leadership at your"},{"startTime":117.166,"endTime":120.608,"body":"organization but it is allowing your."},{"startTime":121.024,"endTime":124.199,"body":"Once we have developed a little"},{"startTime":121.024,"endTime":124.199,"body":"bit of a relationship and we have a"},{"startTime":124.199,"endTime":127.749,"body":"clear vision and strategy in place,"},{"startTime":124.199,"endTime":127.749,"body":"so we need to know those things."},{"startTime":127.753,"endTime":127.824,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":128.241,"endTime":132.949,"body":"and our product person also has"},{"startTime":128.241,"endTime":132.949,"body":"a very clear vision of where"},{"startTime":132.949,"endTime":134.174,"body":"we're going with this product."},{"startTime":134.178,"endTime":134.224,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":134.249,"endTime":134.599,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":134.599,"endTime":136.399,"body":"So those things have to be in place"},{"startTime":136.624,"endTime":137.899,"body":"once that happens."},{"startTime":137.899,"endTime":141.074,"body":"I happened to be in an organization"},{"startTime":137.899,"endTime":141.074,"body":"where we had six different product"},{"startTime":141.074,"endTime":146.191,"body":"owners and we essentially pitched"},{"startTime":141.074,"endTime":146.191,"body":"to the five development teams"},{"startTime":146.191,"endTime":147.616,"body":"that at that point were assigned."},{"startTime":148.033,"endTime":150.783,"body":"And we're basically just kind of"},{"startTime":148.033,"endTime":150.783,"body":"struggling along with what they, what"},{"startTime":150.783,"endTime":154.399,"body":"they could do as much as they could"},{"startTime":150.783,"endTime":154.399,"body":"do without a whole lot of guidance,"},{"startTime":154.403,"endTime":157.799,"body":"without that, you know without that"},{"startTime":154.403,"endTime":157.799,"body":"North star or really knowing exactly what"},{"startTime":157.799,"endTime":159.516,"body":"they were working for towards mm-hmm."},{"startTime":159.891,"endTime":164.399,"body":". So the product owners came in,"},{"startTime":159.891,"endTime":164.399,"body":"they pitched their you know,"},{"startTime":164.399,"endTime":167.274,"body":"explained their background, pitched"},{"startTime":164.399,"endTime":167.274,"body":"their, their product vision."},{"startTime":167.674,"endTime":172.524,"body":"And there were also some leadership"},{"startTime":167.674,"endTime":172.524,"body":"guidance given in regards to"},{"startTime":172.528,"endTime":176.524,"body":"how teams needed to be evened"},{"startTime":172.528,"endTime":176.524,"body":"out in regards to experience."},{"startTime":176.733,"endTime":179.508,"body":"We needed to make sure that we"},{"startTime":176.733,"endTime":179.508,"body":"had someone front end, back end"},{"startTime":179.512,"endTime":181.599,"body":"designs, qa, so on and so forth."},{"startTime":181.599,"endTime":185.249,"body":"After we gave our pitches as and this"},{"startTime":181.599,"endTime":185.249,"body":"was this was after we had gone through"},{"startTime":185.449,"endTime":190.074,"body":"a lot of pre-work, going, working with"},{"startTime":185.449,"endTime":190.074,"body":"the leadership work, going through"},{"startTime":190.078,"endTime":193.549,"body":"the roadmap and figuring out what"},{"startTime":190.078,"endTime":193.549,"body":"needed to be done, in what order,"},{"startTime":193.649,"endTime":196.624,"body":"what we were passionate about, what"},{"startTime":193.649,"endTime":196.624,"body":"we wanted to do, and what we felt"},{"startTime":196.628,"endTime":198.799,"body":"like we could bring the most value to."},{"startTime":199.174,"endTime":204.141,"body":"So then we, we came up with our pitch,"},{"startTime":199.174,"endTime":204.141,"body":"and then we allowed every one of those"},{"startTime":204.141,"endTime":209.808,"body":"developers in the room to pick, to go"},{"startTime":204.141,"endTime":209.808,"body":"around to the tables, ask us questions"},{"startTime":210.074,"endTime":213.967,"body":"clarify things, and then move on and"},{"startTime":210.074,"endTime":213.967,"body":"decide, you know, what interests me."},{"startTime":214.383,"endTime":217.383,"body":"and there was, there was one,"},{"startTime":214.383,"endTime":217.383,"body":"only one team that started as"},{"startTime":217.383,"endTime":219.158,"body":"that team and stayed as that team."},{"startTime":219.158,"endTime":220.333,"body":"They never, they didn't move anybody."},{"startTime":220.333,"endTime":222.008,"body":"They'd been working"},{"startTime":220.333,"endTime":222.008,"body":"together for several years."},{"startTime":222.008,"endTime":222.058,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":222.458,"endTime":226.008,"body":"Every other team had actually"},{"startTime":222.458,"endTime":226.008,"body":"been hired on fairly new, new,"},{"startTime":226.008,"endTime":227.758,"body":"within the year or so, prior."},{"startTime":227.908,"endTime":229.033,"body":"Most of them, less than that."},{"startTime":229.358,"endTime":233.508,"body":"And every other one of them actually"},{"startTime":229.358,"endTime":233.508,"body":"jumped ship to some degree or another."},{"startTime":233.883,"endTime":239.0,"body":"And then what we found was they"},{"startTime":233.883,"endTime":239.0,"body":"also realized that, hey, we don't"},{"startTime":239.0,"endTime":243.125,"body":"have balance here in regards to"},{"startTime":239.0,"endTime":243.125,"body":"experience, or we're not meeting the"},{"startTime":243.125,"endTime":246.175,"body":"full stack needs that we need so that"},{"startTime":243.125,"endTime":246.175,"body":"we can reduce the dependencies that"},{"startTime":246.175,"endTime":247.7,"body":"we would have on these other teams."},{"startTime":247.704,"endTime":247.917,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":248.25,"endTime":251.05,"body":"And if that were the case, then we"},{"startTime":248.25,"endTime":251.05,"body":"said, All right, we're going to give"},{"startTime":251.05,"endTime":253.3,"body":"you another half an hour, 45 minutes."},{"startTime":253.3,"endTime":256.408,"body":"Everybody walk around and see"},{"startTime":253.3,"endTime":256.408,"body":"how we can balance this out."},{"startTime":256.408,"endTime":256.775,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":257.192,"endTime":259.483,"body":", And they did with no there."},{"startTime":259.508,"endTime":263.408,"body":"So leadership reserve the right to say,"},{"startTime":259.508,"endTime":263.408,"body":"if you can't get this done at the end"},{"startTime":263.408,"endTime":264.958,"body":"we will, we will switch people out."},{"startTime":265.008,"endTime":265.108,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":265.525,"endTime":267.942,"body":"They didn't have to, We"},{"startTime":265.525,"endTime":267.942,"body":"had adults in the room."},{"startTime":268.267,"endTime":269.567,"body":"They knew what needed to be done."},{"startTime":269.904,"endTime":272.904,"body":"They were passionate about getting"},{"startTime":269.904,"endTime":272.904,"body":"this done correctly, and some"},{"startTime":272.904,"endTime":276.079,"body":"of them went and, and said, You"},{"startTime":272.904,"endTime":276.079,"body":"know what, I'm, I'm more senior."},{"startTime":276.079,"endTime":278.329,"body":"I'm seeing a whole bunch of"},{"startTime":276.079,"endTime":278.329,"body":"junior developers over there."},{"startTime":278.746,"endTime":279.546,"body":"Let me switch."},{"startTime":279.571,"endTime":279.671,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":279.696,"endTime":281.371,"body":"You know, they, there, they, they need me."},{"startTime":281.754,"endTime":284.104,"body":"and there was no intervention"},{"startTime":281.754,"endTime":284.104,"body":"that needed to be had."},{"startTime":284.154,"endTime":288.979,"body":"Now, I would say that's the exception"},{"startTime":284.154,"endTime":288.979,"body":"to the rule, but I cannot profess"},{"startTime":289.079,"endTime":294.129,"body":"more profoundly how positive that"},{"startTime":289.079,"endTime":294.129,"body":"was in so many ways that were even"},{"startTime":294.129,"endTime":298.521,"body":"intangible in the sense that it was"},{"startTime":294.129,"endTime":298.521,"body":"immediately empowering of our teams."},{"startTime":298.829,"endTime":299.338,"body":". Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":299.408,"endTime":300.771,"body":", they were immediately bought in."},{"startTime":300.771,"endTime":302.621,"body":"It was theirs, it became their baby."},{"startTime":302.971,"endTime":303.471,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":303.746,"endTime":307.496,"body":"And we were all already feeling"},{"startTime":303.746,"endTime":307.496,"body":"like part of the same team."},{"startTime":307.521,"endTime":307.571,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":307.571,"endTime":310.371,"body":"So what I'm, my point is when it"},{"startTime":307.571,"endTime":310.371,"body":"comes to teams, there is, there"},{"startTime":310.371,"endTime":311.746,"body":"are multiple ways of doing things."},{"startTime":311.75,"endTime":314.321,"body":"The simplest thing is just, just tie"},{"startTime":311.75,"endTime":314.321,"body":"our PO and say, Here's your team."},{"startTime":314.321,"endTime":314.671,"body":"Fix it."},{"startTime":314.721,"endTime":314.971,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":315.388,"endTime":318.338,"body":"But there's other ways that can"},{"startTime":315.388,"endTime":318.338,"body":"be approached and as a PO or even"},{"startTime":318.338,"endTime":320.838,"body":"a pm, you can advocate for that."},{"startTime":320.921,"endTime":321.921,"body":"Don't know how far you'll get."},{"startTime":321.921,"endTime":324.946,"body":"It really depends on, you know,"},{"startTime":321.921,"endTime":324.946,"body":"the culture of the organization."},{"startTime":325.288,"endTime":326.838,"body":"But, but there's other options there."},{"startTime":326.988,"endTime":330.471,"body":"I was gonna ask what triggered"},{"startTime":326.988,"endTime":330.471,"body":"the shakeup, the, the, the Team"},{"startTime":330.471,"endTime":332.471,"body":"Reformation event that you described?"},{"startTime":332.888,"endTime":335.854,"body":"So remember this was greenfield,"},{"startTime":332.888,"endTime":335.854,"body":"so they just basically hired a"},{"startTime":335.854,"endTime":339.754,"body":"team in and then they just hired,"},{"startTime":335.854,"endTime":339.754,"body":"the next group of six came in."},{"startTime":339.758,"endTime":342.404,"body":"They were the next team and the next group"},{"startTime":339.758,"endTime":342.404,"body":"of six that came in that were next team."},{"startTime":342.408,"endTime":346.246,"body":"So they were immediately imbalanced"},{"startTime":342.408,"endTime":346.246,"body":"and we didn't have all of the"},{"startTime":346.25,"endTime":348.529,"body":"product owners already , hired."},{"startTime":348.946,"endTime":352.546,"body":"So we didn't have that"},{"startTime":348.946,"endTime":352.546,"body":"alignment in regards to."},{"startTime":352.879,"endTime":355.096,"body":"business and overall vision and strategy."},{"startTime":355.454,"endTime":359.354,"body":"and then, and then that roadmap"},{"startTime":355.454,"endTime":359.354,"body":"that was broken out from that over,"},{"startTime":359.454,"endTime":360.729,"body":"you know, that long term roadmap."},{"startTime":360.979,"endTime":366.579,"body":"Once we were, once they had the product"},{"startTime":360.979,"endTime":366.579,"body":"owners hired and we had created a solid"},{"startTime":366.579,"endTime":370.204,"body":"vision that North Star, truly, that"},{"startTime":366.579,"endTime":370.204,"body":"one that everybody could look through."},{"startTime":370.204,"endTime":370.554,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":370.554,"endTime":373.554,"body":"Is our sprint and product goal"},{"startTime":370.554,"endTime":373.554,"body":"moving towards that mm-hmm."},{"startTime":373.854,"endTime":374.229,"body":", right?"},{"startTime":374.529,"endTime":379.838,"body":", once we had those in place, then"},{"startTime":374.529,"endTime":379.838,"body":"it made sense for us to rearrange"},{"startTime":379.963,"endTime":381.888,"body":"and, and, and it made more sense."},{"startTime":381.888,"endTime":385.946,"body":"Or we made a bet to say, How about"},{"startTime":381.888,"endTime":385.946,"body":"we, instead of doing this command"},{"startTime":385.946,"endTime":388.821,"body":"and control and saying, Let's you"},{"startTime":385.946,"endTime":388.821,"body":"go here, you go here, you go here."},{"startTime":389.238,"endTime":391.338,"body":"At this point, they'd had"},{"startTime":389.238,"endTime":391.338,"body":"enough time to learn each other."},{"startTime":391.754,"endTime":393.404,"body":"To learn each other's"},{"startTime":391.754,"endTime":393.404,"body":"personalities mm-hmm."},{"startTime":393.738,"endTime":396.904,"body":"to learn who was good at what,"},{"startTime":393.738,"endTime":396.904,"body":"who was interested in what."},{"startTime":397.279,"endTime":404.529,"body":"and, and they allowed them to to choose"},{"startTime":397.279,"endTime":404.529,"body":"and and truly self-organize their teams."},{"startTime":404.879,"endTime":405.029,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":405.279,"endTime":408.296,"body":"And and it worked so well."},{"startTime":408.463,"endTime":411.288,"body":"It sounds like there was some kind of"},{"startTime":408.463,"endTime":411.288,"body":"leadership initiative to, to move their"},{"startTime":411.288,"endTime":414.979,"body":"products from,  whatever, the way they"},{"startTime":411.288,"endTime":414.979,"body":"were before to some kind of future state."},{"startTime":415.129,"endTime":415.579,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":415.583,"endTime":418.404,"body":"So they were moving from this and,"},{"startTime":415.583,"endTime":418.404,"body":"and, and I will tell you, they were"},{"startTime":418.404,"endTime":420.704,"body":"very driven for a very specific reason."},{"startTime":420.721,"endTime":422.479,"body":"And it, and usually it"},{"startTime":420.721,"endTime":422.479,"body":"always comes down to money."},{"startTime":422.479,"endTime":423.879,"body":"And this time it absolutely did."},{"startTime":423.879,"endTime":423.929,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":424.204,"endTime":425.529,"body":"So they had internal servers."},{"startTime":425.813,"endTime":428.138,"body":"they had a big logo they signed."},{"startTime":428.138,"endTime":431.288,"body":"They did not realize the impact"},{"startTime":428.138,"endTime":431.288,"body":"that we were working, They"},{"startTime":431.288,"endTime":432.313,"body":"were working in insurance."},{"startTime":432.379,"endTime":435.804,"body":"So if you're not familiar,"},{"startTime":432.379,"endTime":435.804,"body":"insurance has an open enrollment."},{"startTime":435.954,"endTime":436.079,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":436.079,"endTime":439.938,"body":"And generally have the most"},{"startTime":436.079,"endTime":439.938,"body":"activity in your you know, in"},{"startTime":439.938,"endTime":442.313,"body":"that very short period of time."},{"startTime":442.313,"endTime":442.363,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":442.367,"endTime":445.938,"body":"Every, every year it crashed their"},{"startTime":442.367,"endTime":445.938,"body":"internal service for two weeks."},{"startTime":445.938,"endTime":445.963,"body":"Oh."},{"startTime":446.313,"endTime":449.725,"body":"Which was a devastating, a crisis."},{"startTime":450.058,"endTime":451.75,"body":"It literally crisis for this company."},{"startTime":451.775,"endTime":452.0,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":452.275,"endTime":452.9,"body":"So, yeah."},{"startTime":452.9,"endTime":453.525,"body":"So we went."},{"startTime":453.525,"endTime":457.188,"body":"So, so it was that crisis that led"},{"startTime":453.525,"endTime":457.188,"body":"to, all right, we need to invest"},{"startTime":457.188,"endTime":460.163,"body":"in making this and in making sure"},{"startTime":457.188,"endTime":460.163,"body":"this never, ever happens again."},{"startTime":460.167,"endTime":460.421,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":460.421,"endTime":460.779,"body":"There yeah."},{"startTime":460.779,"endTime":462.129,"body":"Never pass up a good crisis."},{"startTime":462.129,"endTime":464.225,"body":"never, never, never let a"},{"startTime":462.129,"endTime":464.225,"body":"good crisis go to waste."},{"startTime":464.267,"endTime":467.008,"body":"There's a famous quote about that I"},{"startTime":464.267,"endTime":467.008,"body":"like, oh, it was, it was Churchill."},{"startTime":467.233,"endTime":467.733,"body":"Churchill."},{"startTime":467.783,"endTime":468.158,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":468.508,"endTime":471.025,"body":"Boy, never let a good crisis go to waste."},{"startTime":471.208,"endTime":474.808,"body":"And they didn't, and that, that, that"},{"startTime":471.208,"endTime":474.808,"body":"really was the driving factor they lost."},{"startTime":474.808,"endTime":479.308,"body":"So, and, and a whole lot of lost revenue"},{"startTime":474.808,"endTime":479.308,"body":"and lost face, so, you know, hey."},{"startTime":479.425,"endTime":480.7,"body":"but it could have been prevented."},{"startTime":480.7,"endTime":483.704,"body":"I mean, these were things that could"},{"startTime":480.7,"endTime":483.704,"body":"have been mitigated ahead of time."},{"startTime":483.746,"endTime":486.571,"body":"And it was also a very old"},{"startTime":483.746,"endTime":486.571,"body":"application that had been built on"},{"startTime":486.575,"endTime":489.746,"body":"and built on and built on and built"},{"startTime":486.575,"endTime":489.746,"body":"on and needed to be cleaned up."},{"startTime":489.746,"endTime":490.096,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":490.513,"endTime":496.404,"body":"So it was my job to go in there and"},{"startTime":490.513,"endTime":496.404,"body":"understand those personas, the workflows"},{"startTime":496.629,"endTime":500.004,"body":"and the problems, each individual"},{"startTime":496.629,"endTime":500.004,"body":"work, you know, each individual persona"},{"startTime":500.004,"endTime":501.304,"body":"was having with their workflows."},{"startTime":501.308,"endTime":501.554,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":501.625,"endTime":503.129,"body":", and then prioritize those."},{"startTime":503.546,"endTime":508.092,"body":"And that led actually to our roadmap"},{"startTime":503.546,"endTime":508.092,"body":"and how we were going to implement this"},{"startTime":508.092,"endTime":513.117,"body":"incrementally across the year, but yes"},{"startTime":508.092,"endTime":513.117,"body":"I was fortunately assigned one team."},{"startTime":513.533,"endTime":516.633,"body":"Each of us product owners were"},{"startTime":513.533,"endTime":516.633,"body":"assigned one team, which is ideal."},{"startTime":516.708,"endTime":516.808,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":516.992,"endTime":518.817,"body":"There was no lack of"},{"startTime":516.992,"endTime":518.817,"body":"work with just one team"},{"startTime":518.858,"endTime":525.792,"body":"and  my VP of product, who I"},{"startTime":518.858,"endTime":525.792,"body":"adore but he was the, we did not"},{"startTime":525.792,"endTime":529.717,"body":"have product managers and he was"},{"startTime":525.792,"endTime":529.717,"body":"the one that acted in that role."},{"startTime":529.717,"endTime":530.117,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":530.258,"endTime":534.808,"body":". He was also the one that was the"},{"startTime":530.258,"endTime":534.808,"body":"buffer and the protector to, to"},{"startTime":534.808,"endTime":538.767,"body":"educate us where we needed to be"},{"startTime":534.808,"endTime":538.767,"body":"educated, but to protect us from."},{"startTime":539.183,"endTime":544.433,"body":"Those business needs that would"},{"startTime":539.183,"endTime":544.433,"body":"impact prioritization, potentially."},{"startTime":544.85,"endTime":548.3,"body":"He wanted us shielded"},{"startTime":544.85,"endTime":548.3,"body":"from any of those outside."},{"startTime":548.325,"endTime":548.375,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":548.625,"endTime":551.025,"body":"You know, very, very what's in it for me?"},{"startTime":551.025,"endTime":552.275,"body":"Type of requests."},{"startTime":552.275,"endTime":552.325,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":552.5,"endTime":556.292,"body":"So that we could look at it holistically"},{"startTime":552.5,"endTime":556.292,"body":"and, and prioritize in that way."},{"startTime":556.708,"endTime":559.083,"body":"And it worked really, really well."},{"startTime":559.108,"endTime":559.983,"body":"We were very successful."},{"startTime":560.4,"endTime":563.0,"body":"Let's stick with the being assigned"},{"startTime":560.4,"endTime":563.0,"body":"category of kind of the main, the"},{"startTime":563.004,"endTime":566.467,"body":"main difference of what I see between"},{"startTime":563.004,"endTime":566.467,"body":"POS and PMs  as a job basically."},{"startTime":566.875,"endTime":569.792,"body":"Well, POS and PMs, I feel when you're"},{"startTime":566.875,"endTime":569.792,"body":"new at your job, , you're gonna get"},{"startTime":569.792,"endTime":572.967,"body":"assigned either way, but I feel when"},{"startTime":569.792,"endTime":572.967,"body":"you're a PO you get assigned, like, this"},{"startTime":572.967,"endTime":574.242,"body":"is your product, here's your product."},{"startTime":574.258,"endTime":574.692,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":575.042,"endTime":577.642,"body":", or, or if you're, like, if you are"},{"startTime":575.042,"endTime":577.642,"body":"lucky enough to work for a big company"},{"startTime":578.058,"endTime":582.875,"body":"like Twitter or Facebook, Hey guys,"},{"startTime":578.058,"endTime":582.875,"body":"you are the PM of this feature."},{"startTime":582.925,"endTime":584.525,"body":"Like you're the PM of, I don't know."},{"startTime":584.525,"endTime":585.7,"body":"What, what's a feature on Facebook?"},{"startTime":585.725,"endTime":588.742,"body":"like you're, you're drunk and"},{"startTime":585.725,"endTime":588.742,"body":"uncle posting racist things."},{"startTime":588.746,"endTime":588.858,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":588.925,"endTime":589.867,"body":"like, what, what's the"},{"startTime":588.925,"endTime":589.867,"body":"feature on Facebook?"},{"startTime":589.867,"endTime":591.117,"body":"I don't even know what"},{"startTime":589.867,"endTime":591.117,"body":"features are on Facebook."},{"startTime":591.121,"endTime":591.625,"body":"I know."},{"startTime":591.625,"endTime":592.017,"body":"I have no idea."},{"startTime":592.017,"endTime":592.642,"body":"It could be."},{"startTime":592.879,"endTime":594.954,"body":"Literally like the like"},{"startTime":592.879,"endTime":594.954,"body":"button could be a feature."},{"startTime":594.996,"endTime":595.296,"body":", yeah."},{"startTime":595.296,"endTime":595.471,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":595.471,"endTime":595.721,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":596.046,"endTime":597.021,"body":"Timeline, I guess."},{"startTime":597.179,"endTime":597.813,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":597.817,"endTime":598.246,"body":"Something like that."},{"startTime":598.496,"endTime":601.846,"body":"so I think like, hey, here's your"},{"startTime":598.496,"endTime":601.846,"body":"little feature, and then the, and"},{"startTime":601.85,"endTime":605.546,"body":"then the difference now between"},{"startTime":601.85,"endTime":605.546,"body":"a pm and a PO is we welcome all"},{"startTime":605.546,"endTime":607.213,"body":"feedback but is it's not appreciated."},{"startTime":607.629,"endTime":608.354,"body":"That's the way I feel."},{"startTime":608.579,"endTime":612.179,"body":"So like in a PO role, it's like, Hey,"},{"startTime":608.579,"endTime":612.179,"body":"I know you got great ideas about stuff"},{"startTime":612.183,"endTime":614.529,"body":"that's outside of your wheelhouse, but"},{"startTime":612.183,"endTime":614.529,"body":"so, and keep it to yourself like that."},{"startTime":614.571,"endTime":618.771,"body":"When there has been a job role called"},{"startTime":614.571,"endTime":618.771,"body":"product owner that I have observed"},{"startTime":619.071,"endTime":620.371,"body":"that has been the way it's treated."},{"startTime":620.371,"endTime":621.258,"body":"Stay in your lane."},{"startTime":621.642,"endTime":623.717,"body":"You know, You mean coming"},{"startTime":621.642,"endTime":623.717,"body":"from the PM to the po?"},{"startTime":623.717,"endTime":624.042,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":624.108,"endTime":624.443,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":624.859,"endTime":629.309,"body":"Because in, in the PM for like, in"},{"startTime":624.859,"endTime":629.309,"body":"my experience as a pm like your,"},{"startTime":629.726,"endTime":632.593,"body":"this is going to our next category a"},{"startTime":629.726,"endTime":632.593,"body":"little early, like like the next category"},{"startTime":632.593,"endTime":633.993,"body":"is being involved in business strategy."},{"startTime":634.043,"endTime":634.118,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":634.318,"endTime":634.468,"body":", right?"},{"startTime":634.793,"endTime":638.993,"body":"So it's, it's difficult to ignore"},{"startTime":634.793,"endTime":638.993,"body":"business strategy and ignore, I was"},{"startTime":638.993,"endTime":641.643,"body":"gonna say viewership like I don't know,"},{"startTime":638.993,"endTime":641.643,"body":"monthly active users, stuff like that."},{"startTime":641.647,"endTime":644.843,"body":"Like usage of my corner of the world."},{"startTime":644.868,"endTime":644.943,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":645.218,"endTime":645.843,"body":"is down."},{"startTime":646.259,"endTime":647.009,"body":"Well, that's not your problem."},{"startTime":647.013,"endTime":648.209,"body":"Just analytics in general."},{"startTime":648.209,"endTime":648.759,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":649.009,"endTime":649.759,"body":"Like general analytics."},{"startTime":649.759,"endTime":653.826,"body":"Like, there's very little you can do"},{"startTime":649.759,"endTime":653.826,"body":"unless you're like the PM of growth"},{"startTime":653.901,"endTime":656.451,"body":"or something like that, and you just"},{"startTime":653.901,"endTime":656.451,"body":"go, like, your whole job is going to"},{"startTime":656.451,"endTime":658.651,"body":"other PMs and be like, You need to do"},{"startTime":656.451,"endTime":658.651,"body":"this, you need to do this, whatever."},{"startTime":658.651,"endTime":661.201,"body":"I guess what I'm saying is your"},{"startTime":658.651,"endTime":661.201,"body":"ability to affect the whole."},{"startTime":661.618,"endTime":662.468,"body":"Like the entire product."},{"startTime":662.768,"endTime":665.668,"body":"Again, assuming your product is just one"},{"startTime":662.768,"endTime":665.668,"body":"little tiny product inside of a giant"},{"startTime":665.668,"endTime":669.243,"body":"suite of products, or your product is"},{"startTime":665.668,"endTime":669.243,"body":"one feature inside of a larger product."},{"startTime":669.309,"endTime":670.509,"body":"We use Facebook for example."},{"startTime":670.634,"endTime":671.409,"body":"I know they're called meta."},{"startTime":671.434,"endTime":671.909,"body":"I don't care."},{"startTime":672.059,"endTime":674.459,"body":"You probably recently have got fired"},{"startTime":672.059,"endTime":674.459,"body":"from Meta, so stop complaining."},{"startTime":674.643,"endTime":677.859,"body":"For example, if, you are the PM of"},{"startTime":674.643,"endTime":677.859,"body":"marketplace you probably have a whole"},{"startTime":677.859,"endTime":681.334,"body":"bunch of concerns that the PM of"},{"startTime":677.859,"endTime":681.334,"body":"Timelines doesn't really care about."},{"startTime":681.409,"endTime":682.788,"body":"Cause they're never gonna go to your area."},{"startTime":682.813,"endTime":683.063,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":683.113,"endTime":684.817,"body":"They don't see your roadmap,"},{"startTime":683.113,"endTime":684.817,"body":"they're so busy with their"},{"startTime":684.817,"endTime":685.692,"body":"own stuff and their own teams."},{"startTime":685.692,"endTime":687.833,"body":"They're never gonna look at your Probably"},{"startTime":685.692,"endTime":687.833,"body":"not a whole lot of dependencies there."},{"startTime":688.167,"endTime":688.417,"body":"Probably not."},{"startTime":688.433,"endTime":688.567,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":688.567,"endTime":688.568,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":688.9,"endTime":689.042,"body":"Probably not."},{"startTime":689.083,"endTime":692.681,"body":"Your product or your segment of"},{"startTime":689.083,"endTime":692.681,"body":"the product you have blinders on."},{"startTime":692.706,"endTime":695.765,"body":"You're very limited,  where you"},{"startTime":692.706,"endTime":695.765,"body":"don't really get to play in the"},{"startTime":695.769,"endTime":697.79,"body":"entire suite, the entire area."},{"startTime":698.206,"endTime":702.148,"body":"That would be the big difference between"},{"startTime":698.206,"endTime":702.148,"body":"product owners and product managers to me."},{"startTime":702.414,"endTime":702.989,"body":"I would agree."},{"startTime":702.989,"endTime":707.907,"body":"And, and so I have I just recently"},{"startTime":702.989,"endTime":707.907,"body":"started a new role as a product manager."},{"startTime":708.324,"endTime":715.574,"body":"and fortunately I work for a fantastic"},{"startTime":708.324,"endTime":715.574,"body":"vp of product who is very astute in"},{"startTime":715.574,"endTime":717.682,"body":"regards to marketing in particular."},{"startTime":717.724,"endTime":721.457,"body":"He's trained in pragmatic, the Pragmatic"},{"startTime":717.724,"endTime":721.457,"body":"Marketing Institute, which actually"},{"startTime":721.457,"endTime":723.257,"body":"there's some real, real benefits too."},{"startTime":723.257,"endTime":727.624,"body":"I think it's a little beyond"},{"startTime":723.257,"endTime":727.624,"body":"where I, as more than I wanna"},{"startTime":727.624,"endTime":729.174,"body":"delve into at least currently."},{"startTime":729.249,"endTime":729.299,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":729.715,"endTime":735.549,"body":"but be considering where we are"},{"startTime":729.715,"endTime":735.549,"body":"currently in our very infancy of moving"},{"startTime":735.549,"endTime":737.949,"body":"towards that product led organization."},{"startTime":737.974,"endTime":741.299,"body":"I'm really jumping more into that"},{"startTime":737.974,"endTime":741.299,"body":"product owner role because I need"},{"startTime":741.299,"endTime":745.399,"body":"to, the teams who need me right now"},{"startTime":741.299,"endTime":745.399,"body":"internally, that said, I'm leaning"},{"startTime":745.399,"endTime":750.774,"body":"a lot on my VP of of product who I"},{"startTime":745.399,"endTime":750.774,"body":"fortunately am able to learn a lot from."},{"startTime":751.19,"endTime":751.24,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":751.507,"endTime":751.674,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":751.678,"endTime":753.69,"body":"So, so I'm very fortunate in that respect."},{"startTime":753.732,"endTime":756.907,"body":"And this is what a, gave me agita"},{"startTime":753.732,"endTime":756.907,"body":"coming in and going, I haven't really"},{"startTime":756.907,"endTime":758.382,"body":"been trained as a product manager."},{"startTime":758.382,"endTime":763.157,"body":"And there is this huge gap between,"},{"startTime":758.382,"endTime":763.157,"body":"you know, working with the teams"},{"startTime":763.232,"endTime":767.399,"body":"and being, and, and being completely"},{"startTime":763.232,"endTime":767.399,"body":"separated from the business."},{"startTime":767.44,"endTime":770.64,"body":"And very little, you know, other"},{"startTime":767.44,"endTime":770.64,"body":"than if you have business coming"},{"startTime":770.645,"endTime":774.257,"body":"down and saying, you know, metrics,"},{"startTime":770.645,"endTime":774.257,"body":"metrics you know, capacity and"},{"startTime":774.257,"endTime":775.457,"body":"velocity and blah, blah, blah."},{"startTime":775.874,"endTime":781.049,"body":"But there's such a, a different set of"},{"startTime":775.874,"endTime":781.049,"body":"knowledge that needs to be, had learned,"},{"startTime":781.053,"endTime":786.724,"body":"experienced from the product management"},{"startTime":781.053,"endTime":786.724,"body":"perspective and how that ties into product"},{"startTime":786.724,"endTime":789.357,"body":"overarching and impacts development."},{"startTime":789.449,"endTime":794.124,"body":"So understanding the the, the,"},{"startTime":789.449,"endTime":794.124,"body":"the market understanding the"},{"startTime":794.124,"endTime":795.424,"body":"product market fit mm-hmm."},{"startTime":795.607,"endTime":799.474,"body":"Understanding or potentially,"},{"startTime":795.607,"endTime":799.474,"body":"completing win loss analysis."},{"startTime":799.474,"endTime":801.499,"body":"So, you know, kind of why"},{"startTime":799.474,"endTime":801.499,"body":"are you winning these?"},{"startTime":801.503,"endTime":804.799,"body":"Why are you losing these you"},{"startTime":801.503,"endTime":804.799,"body":"know, what can we learn from this?"},{"startTime":804.949,"endTime":806.624,"body":"so things that I haven't done before."},{"startTime":807.04,"endTime":809.315,"body":"I'm on my way, well, on"},{"startTime":807.04,"endTime":809.315,"body":"my way to learning them."},{"startTime":809.732,"endTime":815.232,"body":", but I think that it's that separation"},{"startTime":809.732,"endTime":815.232,"body":"between far more business, marketing,"},{"startTime":815.236,"endTime":821.982,"body":"sales, analytics and making sure"},{"startTime":815.236,"endTime":821.982,"body":"that we have a viable product that,"},{"startTime":822.024,"endTime":824.17,"body":"will be viable in another five years."},{"startTime":824.428,"endTime":826.753,"body":"And then working with"},{"startTime":824.428,"endTime":826.753,"body":"leadership, senior leadership."},{"startTime":826.753,"endTime":829.57,"body":"Executive leadership, and"},{"startTime":826.753,"endTime":829.57,"body":"saying, , what is that vision?"},{"startTime":829.62,"endTime":829.67,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":829.778,"endTime":831.886,"body":"Where are we actually going to be?"},{"startTime":831.886,"endTime":834.686,"body":"Where do you want to be"},{"startTime":831.886,"endTime":834.686,"body":"and what's that strategy?"},{"startTime":834.728,"endTime":838.828,"body":"if people could only listen to a 60 second"},{"startTime":834.728,"endTime":838.828,"body":"little snippet of the podcast, that would"},{"startTime":838.828,"endTime":839.953,"body":"be the snippet I want them to listen to."},{"startTime":839.953,"endTime":842.803,"body":"It's like, hey, if you're going"},{"startTime":839.953,"endTime":842.803,"body":"from a PO role, or like, a lot of"},{"startTime":842.803,"endTime":843.978,"body":"times people are in the PO role."},{"startTime":843.978,"endTime":845.603,"body":"It's because they've,"},{"startTime":843.978,"endTime":845.603,"body":"they've just gotten their."},{"startTime":846.02,"endTime":846.245,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":846.595,"endTime":847.495,"body":"They'd just gotten their start."},{"startTime":847.495,"endTime":850.095,"body":"I got my start as a product owner."},{"startTime":850.27,"endTime":851.07,"body":"That was the title."},{"startTime":851.195,"endTime":852.545,"body":"Actually, my job title"},{"startTime":851.195,"endTime":852.545,"body":"wasn't even product owner."},{"startTime":852.695,"endTime":855.945,"body":"I inherited a product owner job title"},{"startTime":852.695,"endTime":855.945,"body":"in addition to my other job titles."},{"startTime":856.12,"endTime":858.92,"body":"Cuz hey, we wear lots of hats when we"},{"startTime":856.12,"endTime":858.92,"body":"don't want to pay, you know, people."},{"startTime":858.924,"endTime":858.995,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":859.095,"endTime":863.307,"body":"Um, but uh that was my, I was product"},{"startTime":859.095,"endTime":863.307,"body":"owner and to me the difference"},{"startTime":863.307,"endTime":865.407,"body":"between product owner and product"},{"startTime":863.307,"endTime":865.407,"body":"manager is everything you just said."},{"startTime":865.532,"endTime":868.474,"body":"It's all the, all the stuff that"},{"startTime":865.532,"endTime":868.474,"body":"has to do with business strategy."},{"startTime":868.59,"endTime":868.665,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":868.94,"endTime":872.565,"body":". And I didn't realize it until"},{"startTime":868.94,"endTime":872.565,"body":"years later from the experience."},{"startTime":872.74,"endTime":877.874,"body":"I was like, why did the people I worked"},{"startTime":872.74,"endTime":877.874,"body":"for intentionally keep me out of talking"},{"startTime":877.874,"endTime":881.774,"body":"about pricing, talking about go to"},{"startTime":877.874,"endTime":881.774,"body":"market, talking about finding a user"},{"startTime":881.774,"endTime":885.349,"body":"base, talking about, and, and I realize"},{"startTime":881.774,"endTime":885.349,"body":"it was because they were, they were."},{"startTime":885.765,"endTime":888.34,"body":"Tiny, egotistical people"},{"startTime":885.765,"endTime":888.34,"body":"with their own problems."},{"startTime":888.382,"endTime":888.657,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":888.732,"endTime":890.657,"body":"That's like, that's not helpful to"},{"startTime":888.732,"endTime":890.657,"body":"anyone cuz everyone's like, well"},{"startTime":891.074,"endTime":892.099,"body":"that doesn't help me in my job."},{"startTime":892.099,"endTime":893.674,"body":"That I just had a bunch"},{"startTime":892.099,"endTime":893.674,"body":"of people that couldn't."},{"startTime":893.782,"endTime":895.849,"body":"They, they just wanted control"},{"startTime":893.782,"endTime":895.849,"body":"and they couldn't let go."},{"startTime":895.924,"endTime":898.499,"body":"There's no way I can edit this into"},{"startTime":895.924,"endTime":898.499,"body":"a sixty second clip that like the,"},{"startTime":898.499,"endTime":900.749,"body":"the people I'm working for, just"},{"startTime":898.499,"endTime":900.749,"body":"that they needed to have control."},{"startTime":900.749,"endTime":902.124,"body":"They wanted to be in"},{"startTime":900.749,"endTime":902.124,"body":"the business strategy."},{"startTime":902.149,"endTime":903.499,"body":"They didn't wanna feel"},{"startTime":902.149,"endTime":903.499,"body":"like they were left out."},{"startTime":903.649,"endTime":906.115,"body":"They didn't wanna show, you know actually"},{"startTime":903.649,"endTime":906.115,"body":"Let me wheel it back for a second."},{"startTime":906.315,"endTime":909.34,"body":"Go to a super large organization where"},{"startTime":906.315,"endTime":909.34,"body":"everyone's trying to move up the ladder."},{"startTime":909.457,"endTime":911.682,"body":"Like a big four where everyone's"},{"startTime":909.457,"endTime":911.682,"body":"trying to make that senior manager"},{"startTime":911.682,"endTime":913.982,"body":"to director, jump, trying to make"},{"startTime":911.682,"endTime":913.982,"body":"partner in seven years or whatever."},{"startTime":914.107,"endTime":916.29,"body":"Anything that, that doesn't"},{"startTime":914.107,"endTime":916.29,"body":"look like their idea."},{"startTime":916.34,"endTime":916.415,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":916.615,"endTime":919.89,"body":", that they can like their win, they can't"},{"startTime":916.615,"endTime":919.89,"body":"chalk it into their column as their win."},{"startTime":919.89,"endTime":920.115,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":920.324,"endTime":924.149,"body":", they're going to , push you out of, so,"},{"startTime":920.324,"endTime":924.149,"body":"so throw you under the bus, ignore you."},{"startTime":924.149,"endTime":925.349,"body":"Make sure you're excluded."},{"startTime":925.349,"endTime":925.649,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":925.924,"endTime":926.199,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":926.199,"endTime":927.224,"body":"It's all about me."},{"startTime":927.224,"endTime":927.874,"body":"What I did."},{"startTime":927.874,"endTime":931.074,"body":"Make sure my name's on it so that,"},{"startTime":927.874,"endTime":931.074,"body":"like, that's, I couldn't move up."},{"startTime":931.074,"endTime":933.899,"body":"I couldn't, And again, I didn't at"},{"startTime":931.074,"endTime":933.899,"body":"the time, I was just, I'm, I'm really"},{"startTime":933.899,"endTime":935.649,"body":"busy because I'm, I'm a product owner."},{"startTime":935.649,"endTime":937.099,"body":"I've got the team delivering stuff."},{"startTime":937.099,"endTime":938.374,"body":"I've got my own deliverables."},{"startTime":938.524,"endTime":940.974,"body":"I've got my pieces of the roadmap"},{"startTime":938.524,"endTime":940.974,"body":"I'm trying to grab onto and help"},{"startTime":940.974,"endTime":943.249,"body":"my team, I've got customers, I'm"},{"startTime":940.974,"endTime":943.249,"body":"going in front of 'em a regular"},{"startTime":943.249,"endTime":944.499,"body":"basis, and I'm trying to keep happy."},{"startTime":944.649,"endTime":945.324,"body":"I've got stakeholders."},{"startTime":945.324,"endTime":946.149,"body":"I'm trying to align and keep happy."},{"startTime":946.299,"endTime":949.099,"body":"I'm doing op, like, if you read"},{"startTime":946.299,"endTime":949.099,"body":"the Melissa Perry Build Trap"},{"startTime":949.099,"endTime":950.724,"body":"book, I'm doing operations."},{"startTime":950.832,"endTime":953.053,"body":"I'm operating like, like"},{"startTime":950.832,"endTime":953.053,"body":"there is no tomorrow."},{"startTime":953.178,"endTime":953.253,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":953.603,"endTime":954.903,"body":". I'm trying to make everybody happy."},{"startTime":954.903,"endTime":957.178,"body":"I'm trying to keep, I got, I'm spinning"},{"startTime":954.903,"endTime":957.178,"body":"all these plates, I'm juggling all"},{"startTime":957.178,"endTime":959.528,"body":"these bowls in the air, all, all the"},{"startTime":957.178,"endTime":959.528,"body":"euphemisms for everything I'm doing."},{"startTime":959.945,"endTime":960.87,"body":"But you know what, I'm not doing."},{"startTime":961.286,"endTime":962.286,"body":"Not doing strategy."},{"startTime":962.428,"endTime":962.553,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":962.953,"endTime":967.211,"body":". So when the executives say, Hey, we've"},{"startTime":962.953,"endTime":967.211,"body":"decided we don't need this team, we're"},{"startTime":967.211,"endTime":968.211,"body":"gonna cut that whole team over there."},{"startTime":968.336,"endTime":968.636,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":968.703,"endTime":969.761,"body":". And now, now you're blindsided."},{"startTime":969.761,"endTime":970.611,"body":"Your whole team's blindsided."},{"startTime":970.911,"endTime":972.461,"body":"Well, you shouldn't have been"},{"startTime":970.911,"endTime":972.461,"body":"blindsided cuz you should have"},{"startTime":972.461,"endTime":974.461,"body":"been looking at those metrics the"},{"startTime":972.461,"endTime":974.461,"body":"whole time as a product manager."},{"startTime":974.786,"endTime":977.77,"body":"You, and, and, and the executives"},{"startTime":974.786,"endTime":977.77,"body":"at that company should have been"},{"startTime":977.936,"endTime":980.52,"body":"straight enough with you to say, Hey"},{"startTime":977.936,"endTime":980.52,"body":"what this product line is bringing in."},{"startTime":980.695,"endTime":980.795,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":981.211,"endTime":983.586,"body":", like, we see it being cannibalized"},{"startTime":981.211,"endTime":983.586,"body":"over the next two, three years by"},{"startTime":983.586,"endTime":985.736,"body":"the other, by the other products"},{"startTime":983.586,"endTime":985.736,"body":"that we're promoting and the other"},{"startTime":985.736,"endTime":986.761,"body":"things that we want to promote."},{"startTime":986.911,"endTime":990.953,"body":"So I don't see this, this product or this"},{"startTime":986.911,"endTime":990.953,"body":"team sticking around for two years, so"},{"startTime":990.953,"endTime":992.453,"body":"let's talk about an end of life strategy."},{"startTime":992.495,"endTime":992.695,"body":"No."},{"startTime":992.695,"endTime":995.511,"body":"Instead of that, instead of"},{"startTime":992.695,"endTime":995.511,"body":"doing that, it's all a secret."},{"startTime":995.511,"endTime":996.086,"body":"I remember."},{"startTime":996.461,"endTime":999.47,"body":"After after going through a"},{"startTime":996.461,"endTime":999.47,"body":"corporate merger one time I had a"},{"startTime":999.47,"endTime":1001.595,"body":"budget, and then after the corporate"},{"startTime":999.47,"endTime":1001.595,"body":"merger, HR was like, Well, you're"},{"startTime":1001.595,"endTime":1002.445,"body":"not gonna have a budget anymore."},{"startTime":1002.586,"endTime":1004.461,"body":"It's gonna be managed by your"},{"startTime":1002.586,"endTime":1004.461,"body":"manager because they're, they're"},{"startTime":1004.461,"endTime":1005.386,"body":"the right people to do that."},{"startTime":1005.803,"endTime":1006.803,"body":"And I'm like, What does that mean?"},{"startTime":1007.22,"endTime":1007.845,"body":"What does that mean?"},{"startTime":1008.22,"endTime":1009.495,"body":"That means you want the"},{"startTime":1008.22,"endTime":1009.495,"body":"department to go away."},{"startTime":1009.545,"endTime":1010.295,"body":"That's what that means."},{"startTime":1010.299,"endTime":1010.378,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1010.445,"endTime":1011.195,"body":", that's what that meant."},{"startTime":1011.52,"endTime":1011.745,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1011.895,"endTime":1014.736,"body":"But like, again, it's hr, so like,"},{"startTime":1011.895,"endTime":1014.736,"body":"they're like, they're not, they're just"},{"startTime":1014.736,"endTime":1015.961,"body":"carrying out the orders of the executive."},{"startTime":1016.103,"endTime":1017.336,"body":"They're just doing what they're told."},{"startTime":1017.545,"endTime":1018.095,"body":"Here we go."},{"startTime":1018.195,"endTime":1020.22,"body":"Going back to the basics, if it"},{"startTime":1018.195,"endTime":1020.22,"body":"seems like people are not being"},{"startTime":1020.22,"endTime":1022.253,"body":"transparent with you, there is a reason."},{"startTime":1022.486,"endTime":1024.453,"body":"And like you should flee that structure."},{"startTime":1024.578,"endTime":1026.228,"body":"You, you should take the"},{"startTime":1024.578,"endTime":1026.228,"body":"experience you already have."},{"startTime":1026.528,"endTime":1028.778,"body":"And say, Hey, I know how"},{"startTime":1026.528,"endTime":1028.778,"body":"to, I know how to operate."},{"startTime":1028.803,"endTime":1029.728,"body":"We're gonna go back to the build trap."},{"startTime":1030.003,"endTime":1031.228,"body":"I know how to operate, right?"},{"startTime":1031.228,"endTime":1032.528,"body":"I can do this tactical stuff."},{"startTime":1032.945,"endTime":1034.145,"body":"I can do this operation stuff."},{"startTime":1034.445,"endTime":1037.045,"body":"And I'd like to be in the"},{"startTime":1034.445,"endTime":1037.045,"body":"strategy realm a little bit more."},{"startTime":1037.22,"endTime":1039.395,"body":"I'd like to drive around the"},{"startTime":1037.22,"endTime":1039.395,"body":"organization, talk to sales, talk"},{"startTime":1039.395,"endTime":1041.395,"body":"to different departments, maybe talk"},{"startTime":1039.395,"endTime":1041.395,"body":"to different customers that don't"},{"startTime":1041.395,"endTime":1043.82,"body":"necessarily use, or maybe they use a"},{"startTime":1041.395,"endTime":1043.82,"body":"competitive product or whatever when"},{"startTime":1043.82,"endTime":1044.97,"body":"you're doing competitor analysis."},{"startTime":1044.995,"endTime":1045.07,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1045.295,"endTime":1048.395,"body":", talk to a couple people, maybe go to go"},{"startTime":1045.295,"endTime":1048.395,"body":"to some networking events, fly out, go"},{"startTime":1048.395,"endTime":1049.445,"body":"visit some customers, stuff like that."},{"startTime":1049.861,"endTime":1053.278,"body":"And I'd like to be involved"},{"startTime":1049.861,"endTime":1053.278,"body":"in understanding the strategy"},{"startTime":1053.278,"endTime":1056.795,"body":"level and , I feel like this"},{"startTime":1053.278,"endTime":1056.795,"body":"is the, this is the big for me."},{"startTime":1057.211,"endTime":1060.386,"body":"If you are a product owner and you're"},{"startTime":1057.211,"endTime":1060.386,"body":"assigned a team and you're assigned a"},{"startTime":1060.386,"endTime":1062.861,"body":"feature or you're assigned a product,"},{"startTime":1060.386,"endTime":1062.861,"body":"you know what I mean, or a sub product"},{"startTime":1062.861,"endTime":1068.178,"body":"or of a larger product or whatever your"},{"startTime":1062.861,"endTime":1068.178,"body":"interaction with the strategy the strategy"},{"startTime":1068.178,"endTime":1070.27,"body":"setting, tier of the organization mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1070.686,"endTime":1074.428,"body":"They're probably gonna keep you out of"},{"startTime":1070.686,"endTime":1074.428,"body":"it and it's going to stunt your career."},{"startTime":1074.628,"endTime":1074.728,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1074.953,"endTime":1076.128,"body":"by them keeping you out of it."},{"startTime":1076.132,"endTime":1079.653,"body":"Even if you just go to the meetings"},{"startTime":1076.132,"endTime":1079.653,"body":"and listen to how things get discussed"},{"startTime":1079.657,"endTime":1082.47,"body":"and kind of what they look at to"},{"startTime":1079.657,"endTime":1082.47,"body":"make decisions that will help you."},{"startTime":1082.52,"endTime":1084.57,"body":"If they completely keep you out"},{"startTime":1082.52,"endTime":1084.57,"body":"of that, you'll have no idea what"},{"startTime":1084.57,"endTime":1087.47,"body":"data is used, no idea what, what,"},{"startTime":1084.57,"endTime":1087.47,"body":"what, what exercises you use, or"},{"startTime":1087.47,"endTime":1088.72,"body":"who they talk to or how they do it."},{"startTime":1088.845,"endTime":1089.57,"body":"You'll have no idea."},{"startTime":1089.57,"endTime":1091.67,"body":"So when you, when you go to bridge"},{"startTime":1089.57,"endTime":1091.67,"body":"this gap of what we're talking"},{"startTime":1091.67,"endTime":1094.49,"body":"about, when you go to bridge the"},{"startTime":1091.67,"endTime":1094.49,"body":"Gap of, Hey, I'm in a PO role and"},{"startTime":1094.49,"endTime":1096.49,"body":"now someone is hiring me to be a pm."},{"startTime":1096.907,"endTime":1098.782,"body":"And day one, they're"},{"startTime":1096.907,"endTime":1098.782,"body":"gonna be like, Okay, cool."},{"startTime":1098.782,"endTime":1101.707,"body":"let me introduce you to the strategy"},{"startTime":1098.782,"endTime":1101.707,"body":"layer and let me tell you how you're gonna"},{"startTime":1101.707,"endTime":1104.207,"body":"plug into the strategy layer and you're"},{"startTime":1101.707,"endTime":1104.207,"body":"gonna sit there and you're gonna go what?"},{"startTime":1104.257,"endTime":1104.607,"body":"Huh?"},{"startTime":1104.832,"endTime":1108.649,"body":"I don't what, what is like, I literally"},{"startTime":1104.832,"endTime":1108.649,"body":"had to Google in loss analysis."},{"startTime":1108.849,"endTime":1110.374,"body":"That's like, see I'm not even kidding."},{"startTime":1110.457,"endTime":1115.432,"body":"There is not a clear delineation between"},{"startTime":1110.457,"endTime":1115.432,"body":"product management and product owner."},{"startTime":1115.507,"endTime":1115.582,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1115.782,"endTime":1119.957,"body":". There is an overlap there and"},{"startTime":1115.782,"endTime":1119.957,"body":"should absolutely be a coordination."},{"startTime":1120.182,"endTime":1124.882,"body":"And even so far as having developer, or"},{"startTime":1120.182,"endTime":1124.882,"body":"maybe it's a lead developer, enterprise"},{"startTime":1124.882,"endTime":1129.17,"body":"AR architect or design or whomever,"},{"startTime":1124.882,"endTime":1129.17,"body":"also be a part of that strategy."},{"startTime":1129.22,"endTime":1129.32,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1129.737,"endTime":1132.687,"body":"So that we get an"},{"startTime":1129.737,"endTime":1132.687,"body":"overarching understanding."},{"startTime":1133.103,"endTime":1134.853,"body":"Number one, the feasibility, right?"},{"startTime":1134.853,"endTime":1137.003,"body":"If we're putting on our armed"},{"startTime":1134.853,"endTime":1137.003,"body":"but roadmap, we need to know,"},{"startTime":1137.153,"endTime":1139.028,"body":"can we freaking do it right?"},{"startTime":1139.445,"endTime":1140.37,"body":"The usability."},{"startTime":1140.374,"endTime":1145.112,"body":"So from a design perspective, I mean,"},{"startTime":1140.374,"endTime":1145.112,"body":"are our users gonna be able to use this?"},{"startTime":1145.528,"endTime":1145.928,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1146.312,"endTime":1152.103,"body":"and then from a product perspective,"},{"startTime":1146.312,"endTime":1152.103,"body":"really understanding the, , can we do it?"},{"startTime":1152.253,"endTime":1154.178,"body":"And if not, how could"},{"startTime":1152.253,"endTime":1154.178,"body":"we potentially do it?"},{"startTime":1154.403,"endTime":1156.703,"body":"But all of those things impact strategy."},{"startTime":1156.737,"endTime":1160.087,"body":"Just putting it  a freaking roadmap"},{"startTime":1156.737,"endTime":1160.087,"body":"doesn't mean it can be done."},{"startTime":1160.312,"endTime":1163.887,"body":"We need to include all of"},{"startTime":1160.312,"endTime":1163.887,"body":"these other components to even"},{"startTime":1163.891,"endTime":1165.612,"body":"figure out if it's possible."},{"startTime":1165.652,"endTime":1165.802,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1165.977,"endTime":1168.352,"body":"Well this is what I was saying super early"},{"startTime":1165.977,"endTime":1168.352,"body":"in the podcast when I was trying not to"},{"startTime":1168.352,"endTime":1169.902,"body":"stick my foot in my mouth for some reason."},{"startTime":1169.902,"endTime":1173.002,"body":"I don't know why but The, the product"},{"startTime":1169.902,"endTime":1173.002,"body":"owner will say, We'll hand it off"},{"startTime":1173.006,"endTime":1175.102,"body":"to your development manager and"},{"startTime":1173.006,"endTime":1175.102,"body":"they'll figure out whether they can"},{"startTime":1175.102,"endTime":1176.052,"body":"do it or hand it off to whatever."},{"startTime":1176.056,"endTime":1176.931,"body":"That's not the PM strategy."},{"startTime":1176.931,"endTime":1179.793,"body":"The PM strategy is Hey, we wanna do"},{"startTime":1176.931,"endTime":1179.793,"body":"something and we don't need to guess."},{"startTime":1180.21,"endTime":1182.51,"body":"We want to know that if we"},{"startTime":1180.21,"endTime":1182.51,"body":"do it, it's gonna be a hit."},{"startTime":1182.51,"endTime":1183.818,"body":"Start ticking all the Marty Cagan boxes."},{"startTime":1183.835,"endTime":1184.535,"body":"Is it usable?"},{"startTime":1184.635,"endTime":1186.285,"body":"Well, would the customers actually use it?"},{"startTime":1186.435,"endTime":1188.435,"body":"Okay, well, maybe you can do"},{"startTime":1186.435,"endTime":1188.435,"body":"some wire frames or maybe you can"},{"startTime":1188.439,"endTime":1190.102,"body":"do some real low hanging stuff."},{"startTime":1190.102,"endTime":1191.002,"body":"That doesn't take a long time."},{"startTime":1191.006,"endTime":1193.993,"body":"I mean, if you, like, if you learn a Figma"},{"startTime":1191.006,"endTime":1193.993,"body":"or another wire framing tool, once you're"},{"startTime":1193.993,"endTime":1195.452,"body":"over the hump of learning it mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1195.522,"endTime":1197.143,"body":"it's pretty easy to work with to now."},{"startTime":1197.243,"endTime":1199.343,"body":"Now that's a tool in, in"},{"startTime":1197.243,"endTime":1199.343,"body":"your toolbox to deploy."},{"startTime":1199.343,"endTime":1199.418,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1199.618,"endTime":1200.943,"body":", Hey,  will the customers use it?"},{"startTime":1201.077,"endTime":1203.431,"body":"is it priced within, their ability to pay?"},{"startTime":1203.431,"endTime":1204.177,"body":"Is it priced correctly?"},{"startTime":1204.302,"endTime":1205.702,"body":"You can do some experimentation with that."},{"startTime":1205.702,"endTime":1206.877,"body":"You can do some AB testing with that."},{"startTime":1206.877,"endTime":1207.852,"body":"You can do some surveys with that."},{"startTime":1207.952,"endTime":1212.204,"body":"You can sign up people to use a"},{"startTime":1207.952,"endTime":1212.204,"body":"feature before the feature's available."},{"startTime":1212.354,"endTime":1214.804,"body":"You can add fake door in, in"},{"startTime":1212.354,"endTime":1214.804,"body":"your application to Facebook."},{"startTime":1214.804,"endTime":1216.704,"body":"You should do that back in the day"},{"startTime":1214.804,"endTime":1216.704,"body":"before they fired a bunch of people."},{"startTime":1216.954,"endTime":1217.229,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1217.229,"endTime":1218.154,"body":"I'm gonna keep harping on that."},{"startTime":1218.154,"endTime":1218.704,"body":"No, I won't quit."},{"startTime":1219.121,"endTime":1222.458,"body":"And feasibility like, hey we could"},{"startTime":1219.121,"endTime":1222.458,"body":"redesign the entire app from the bottom"},{"startTime":1222.458,"endTime":1225.008,"body":"up in whatever, you know what I mean,"},{"startTime":1222.458,"endTime":1225.008,"body":"Different APIs, but like that would"},{"startTime":1225.008,"endTime":1226.933,"body":"take us six months and we're just"},{"startTime":1225.008,"endTime":1226.933,"body":"not willing to, you know what mean?"},{"startTime":1227.108,"endTime":1228.108,"body":"So what can we do instead of that?"},{"startTime":1228.108,"endTime":1230.233,"body":"Like, yes, we all know that's the"},{"startTime":1228.108,"endTime":1230.233,"body":"right thing to do and that would"},{"startTime":1230.233,"endTime":1233.133,"body":"be yield a much better result than"},{"startTime":1230.233,"endTime":1233.133,"body":"we have now and keep our whatever"},{"startTime":1233.133,"endTime":1235.858,"body":"servers from crashing, whatever, an"},{"startTime":1233.133,"endTime":1235.858,"body":"open enrollment happens or whatever."},{"startTime":1236.275,"endTime":1236.475,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1236.825,"endTime":1239.946,"body":"We know we could do that, but, we're not"},{"startTime":1236.825,"endTime":1239.946,"body":"willing to basically not introduce any"},{"startTime":1239.95,"endTime":1242.771,"body":"new features for six months while the"},{"startTime":1239.95,"endTime":1242.771,"body":"whole team takes the whole application"},{"startTime":1242.771,"endTime":1243.946,"body":"offline and rebuilds the whole back end."},{"startTime":1243.975,"endTime":1244.85,"body":"That's not gonna work for the business."},{"startTime":1245.0,"endTime":1247.65,"body":"the product manager would run"},{"startTime":1245.0,"endTime":1247.65,"body":"around and, and then, and then at"},{"startTime":1247.65,"endTime":1250.65,"body":"the same time run around inside to"},{"startTime":1247.65,"endTime":1250.65,"body":"all the internal stakeholders to."},{"startTime":1251.067,"endTime":1252.592,"body":"What are support's biggest problems?"},{"startTime":1252.742,"endTime":1254.942,"body":"What, you know, people calling"},{"startTime":1252.742,"endTime":1254.942,"body":"up or emailing in or whatever,"},{"startTime":1255.092,"endTime":1256.267,"body":"what are sales biggest problems?"},{"startTime":1256.267,"endTime":1257.092,"body":"What's the biggest blockers?"},{"startTime":1257.092,"endTime":1259.667,"body":"Keeping them from selling the application,"},{"startTime":1257.092,"endTime":1259.667,"body":"keeping them from going to the next level?"},{"startTime":1259.692,"endTime":1260.717,"body":"They probably have strong feelings."},{"startTime":1260.875,"endTime":1263.917,"body":"Different departments, you know, like"},{"startTime":1260.875,"endTime":1263.917,"body":"you just said, like if, if architecture"},{"startTime":1263.917,"endTime":1267.033,"body":"or some kind of like senior engineering"},{"startTime":1263.917,"endTime":1267.033,"body":"leadership is a separate like team or"},{"startTime":1267.033,"endTime":1268.908,"body":"department or something like that, Like,"},{"startTime":1267.033,"endTime":1268.908,"body":"they probably have strong feelings."},{"startTime":1268.908,"endTime":1273.284,"body":"So the person who builds a strategy"},{"startTime":1268.908,"endTime":1273.284,"body":"out of aligning everyone they"},{"startTime":1273.284,"endTime":1275.184,"body":"could be the same skill set."},{"startTime":1275.6,"endTime":1277.325,"body":"But in my career, they"},{"startTime":1275.6,"endTime":1277.325,"body":"are not the same skillset."},{"startTime":1277.392,"endTime":1279.267,"body":"I started saying this but I"},{"startTime":1277.392,"endTime":1279.267,"body":"stopped saying it cuz nobody"},{"startTime":1279.267,"endTime":1279.917,"body":"knows what I'm talking about."},{"startTime":1279.917,"endTime":1283.075,"body":"Where I, I say communicates,"},{"startTime":1279.917,"endTime":1283.075,"body":"communicates like a doctor."},{"startTime":1283.1,"endTime":1285.375,"body":"The product manager communicates"},{"startTime":1283.1,"endTime":1285.375,"body":"like a doctor, meaning when you go"},{"startTime":1285.375,"endTime":1287.55,"body":"in for like an exam or whatever,"},{"startTime":1285.375,"endTime":1287.55,"body":"the doctor always like narrates what"},{"startTime":1287.55,"endTime":1288.675,"body":"they're doing before they do it."},{"startTime":1288.875,"endTime":1291.517,"body":"They're telling you what the Yeah,"},{"startTime":1288.875,"endTime":1291.517,"body":"I'm gonna, I'm gonna touch you here."},{"startTime":1291.875,"endTime":1294.6,"body":"They overcommunicate they over communicate"},{"startTime":1291.875,"endTime":1294.6,"body":"what they're about to do, right?"},{"startTime":1294.642,"endTime":1299.254,"body":"The product manager I feel if you"},{"startTime":1294.642,"endTime":1299.254,"body":"start with that skill, this whole"},{"startTime":1299.554,"endTime":1302.704,"body":"business strategy layer, everything"},{"startTime":1299.554,"endTime":1302.704,"body":"we're talking about is much easier."},{"startTime":1303.121,"endTime":1305.817,"body":"whereas the base PO skills that I"},{"startTime":1303.121,"endTime":1305.817,"body":"think of, like when you were talking"},{"startTime":1305.817,"endTime":1308.217,"body":"about before, like the division between"},{"startTime":1305.817,"endTime":1308.217,"body":"the two, there is a lot of overlap."},{"startTime":1308.567,"endTime":1312.467,"body":"A lot of overlap for me is in that"},{"startTime":1308.567,"endTime":1312.467,"body":"operations category of things that you do."},{"startTime":1312.742,"endTime":1316.384,"body":"The overlap is not in the strategy"},{"startTime":1312.742,"endTime":1316.384,"body":"swim lane of things that you do."},{"startTime":1316.8,"endTime":1321.125,"body":"And I would argue a lot of people who,"},{"startTime":1316.8,"endTime":1321.125,"body":"like, even if it's their first time in"},{"startTime":1321.129,"endTime":1325.109,"body":"the role of PO, the strategy skills,"},{"startTime":1321.129,"endTime":1325.109,"body":"there's very little opportunity for"},{"startTime":1325.109,"endTime":1326.484,"body":"them to practice those skills Yeah."},{"startTime":1326.534,"endTime":1327.634,"body":"And to get better at those skills."},{"startTime":1328.05,"endTime":1330.6,"body":"I'm living it for, for different reasons."},{"startTime":1330.725,"endTime":1336.659,"body":"So I would say too in regards"},{"startTime":1330.725,"endTime":1336.659,"body":"to product ownership and product"},{"startTime":1336.663,"endTime":1341.434,"body":"management, there's this assumption,"},{"startTime":1336.663,"endTime":1341.434,"body":"I think  that it's a career path."},{"startTime":1341.85,"endTime":1344.45,"body":"And what I'm realizing is no, it's not."},{"startTime":1344.52,"endTime":1345.52,"body":"These are."},{"startTime":1345.814,"endTime":1353.481,"body":"Two very distinct separate careers"},{"startTime":1345.814,"endTime":1353.481,"body":"with very separate and distinct"},{"startTime":1353.897,"endTime":1356.397,"body":"skill sets, is that Yeah, I"},{"startTime":1353.897,"endTime":1356.397,"body":"would, I would say skill sets."},{"startTime":1356.397,"endTime":1357.672,"body":"So there is some overlap"},{"startTime":1357.714,"endTime":1363.622,"body":"And actually the personality types"},{"startTime":1357.714,"endTime":1363.622,"body":"and the things in, in, in work that"},{"startTime":1363.622,"endTime":1369.702,"body":"you are good at or that bring you joy"},{"startTime":1363.622,"endTime":1369.702,"body":"may be completely , different from a"},{"startTime":1369.702,"endTime":1371.652,"body":"product owner to a product manager."},{"startTime":1371.656,"endTime":1373.652,"body":"They're very, very different."},{"startTime":1373.652,"endTime":1378.693,"body":"And typically in my most recent"},{"startTime":1373.652,"endTime":1378.693,"body":"experience is drawing a very different"},{"startTime":1378.693,"endTime":1381.435,"body":"type of personality to the role."},{"startTime":1381.585,"endTime":1385.452,"body":"And I, and I'm not saying that you"},{"startTime":1381.585,"endTime":1385.452,"body":"can,  advance from product owner to"},{"startTime":1385.452,"endTime":1388.427,"body":"a product manager, where sometimes"},{"startTime":1385.452,"endTime":1388.427,"body":"that might be a natural progression."},{"startTime":1388.427,"endTime":1388.502,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1388.914,"endTime":1390.677,"body":". But I don't think that should be assumed."},{"startTime":1391.093,"endTime":1394.985,"body":"And again, this is contextual"},{"startTime":1391.093,"endTime":1394.985,"body":"has to do with, how many products"},{"startTime":1394.985,"endTime":1397.085,"body":"are you supporting, how many"},{"startTime":1394.985,"endTime":1397.085,"body":"product owners are you supporting?"},{"startTime":1397.085,"endTime":1398.335,"body":"How do they work?"},{"startTime":1398.468,"endTime":1399.993,"body":"There's a lot of variables here."},{"startTime":1400.293,"endTime":1404.327,"body":"But I think I assumed for a very long"},{"startTime":1400.293,"endTime":1404.327,"body":"time that this was a natural progression"},{"startTime":1404.477,"endTime":1406.502,"body":"in regards to career progression."},{"startTime":1406.552,"endTime":1409.777,"body":"And what I'm realizing now is I"},{"startTime":1406.552,"endTime":1409.777,"body":"don't believe that that's the case."},{"startTime":1409.91,"endTime":1412.61,"body":"have you ever seen this from"},{"startTime":1409.91,"endTime":1412.61,"body":"Melissa Perri's the Build Trap."},{"startTime":1412.86,"endTime":1416.185,"body":"Associate PM is like someone who's in the"},{"startTime":1412.86,"endTime":1416.185,"body":"product manager role for the first time."},{"startTime":1416.185,"endTime":1419.385,"body":"So it's probably the nearest"},{"startTime":1416.185,"endTime":1419.385,"body":"equivalent of product owner, although"},{"startTime":1419.51,"endTime":1421.102,"body":"you could sub product manager out."},{"startTime":1421.519,"endTime":1422.944,"body":"For product owner in this as well."},{"startTime":1422.944,"endTime":1425.735,"body":"And I feel it'd be the same subset,"},{"startTime":1422.944,"endTime":1425.735,"body":"but she's breaking things into"},{"startTime":1425.935,"endTime":1427.535,"body":"at what level do you operate."},{"startTime":1427.635,"endTime":1427.785,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1428.135,"endTime":1430.285,"body":", strategic, which is everything"},{"startTime":1428.135,"endTime":1430.285,"body":"we're talking about, working with"},{"startTime":1430.285,"endTime":1431.085,"body":"leadership, that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":1431.085,"endTime":1432.335,"body":"Determining the future of your product."},{"startTime":1432.752,"endTime":1435.742,"body":"Operational meaning  just trying"},{"startTime":1432.752,"endTime":1435.742,"body":"to land dates to figure out what"},{"startTime":1435.742,"endTime":1438.117,"body":"team's gonna work on what and when,"},{"startTime":1435.742,"endTime":1438.117,"body":"when, what we're gonna prioritize"},{"startTime":1438.159,"endTime":1439.534,"body":"and tactical is working"},{"startTime":1438.159,"endTime":1439.534,"body":"with the development team."},{"startTime":1439.675,"endTime":1445.492,"body":"And this is the percentage of time spent"},{"startTime":1439.675,"endTime":1445.492,"body":"by the, the higher in seniority you go."},{"startTime":1445.909,"endTime":1447.984,"body":"The, the division of your"},{"startTime":1445.909,"endTime":1447.984,"body":"time is spent Gotcha."},{"startTime":1448.025,"endTime":1449.125,"body":"You see a big divide here."},{"startTime":1449.313,"endTime":1454.238,"body":"where at the director of product level,"},{"startTime":1449.313,"endTime":1454.238,"body":"like she has the, a senior PM is spending"},{"startTime":1454.238,"endTime":1459.125,"body":"50% of their time straddling the tactical"},{"startTime":1454.238,"endTime":1459.125,"body":"and the strategic almost, almost."},{"startTime":1459.25,"endTime":1459.375,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1459.779,"endTime":1460.95,"body":". Cause they're still doing"},{"startTime":1459.779,"endTime":1460.95,"body":"a bit of operations."},{"startTime":1461.075,"endTime":1463.175,"body":"I would argue that they're probably"},{"startTime":1461.075,"endTime":1463.175,"body":"doing, the senior PM is probably"},{"startTime":1463.179,"endTime":1466.517,"body":"doing less operations, but, at the"},{"startTime":1463.179,"endTime":1466.517,"body":"lower level, you're working mostly,"},{"startTime":1466.617,"endTime":1468.167,"body":"almost all with the development team."},{"startTime":1468.584,"endTime":1468.609,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1468.613,"endTime":1470.359,"body":"You know, that, that's basically"},{"startTime":1468.613,"endTime":1470.359,"body":"what she's outlining here."},{"startTime":1470.363,"endTime":1473.184,"body":"Whereas if when you're at the VP of"},{"startTime":1470.363,"endTime":1473.184,"body":"product level, you're basically doing,"},{"startTime":1473.284,"endTime":1475.559,"body":"you're lining updates, go driving"},{"startTime":1473.284,"endTime":1475.559,"body":"outta the organization, telling"},{"startTime":1475.559,"endTime":1477.509,"body":"people when they're gonna get their"},{"startTime":1475.559,"endTime":1477.509,"body":"stuff done, how much stuff's gonna"},{"startTime":1477.509,"endTime":1481.009,"body":"cost and determining the future,"},{"startTime":1477.509,"endTime":1481.009,"body":"that's like a 50 50 part of your job."},{"startTime":1481.034,"endTime":1481.209,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1481.409,"endTime":1484.742,"body":". Whereas you're not working with any one"},{"startTime":1481.409,"endTime":1484.742,"body":"specific team on low level features ever."},{"startTime":1485.017,"endTime":1485.317,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1485.417,"endTime":1487.309,"body":"And that, that's her, that"},{"startTime":1485.417,"endTime":1487.309,"body":"was her division out of Yeah."},{"startTime":1487.309,"endTime":1489.084,"body":"The build trap out of, out"},{"startTime":1487.309,"endTime":1489.084,"body":"of the book, the build trap."},{"startTime":1489.125,"endTime":1490.863,"body":"And it does make, perfect sense."},{"startTime":1491.279,"endTime":1495.563,"body":"And then when you look for instance at"},{"startTime":1491.279,"endTime":1495.563,"body":"the product owner I'll, I'll refer to"},{"startTime":1495.563,"endTime":1500.038,"body":"Bob Galen and , his quadrants of product"},{"startTime":1495.563,"endTime":1500.038,"body":"ownership, one of those quadrants being"},{"startTime":1500.146,"endTime":1504.013,"body":"product management and needing to,"},{"startTime":1500.146,"endTime":1504.013,"body":"you know, that's where that overlap is"},{"startTime":1504.113,"endTime":1507.738,"body":"really needing to understand that and"},{"startTime":1504.113,"endTime":1507.738,"body":"work with, if you have a product manager"},{"startTime":1507.742,"endTime":1510.254,"body":"or if not, Owning that piece of it."},{"startTime":1510.304,"endTime":1510.479,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1510.654,"endTime":1512.454,"body":"And that usually depends"},{"startTime":1510.654,"endTime":1512.454,"body":"on the size of the company."},{"startTime":1512.871,"endTime":1513.279,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1513.321,"endTime":1514.896,"body":"It depends on the culture of your company."},{"startTime":1515.313,"endTime":1515.538,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1515.563,"endTime":1518.663,"body":"Be, because if your company is stuck"},{"startTime":1515.563,"endTime":1518.663,"body":"in this command and control and they"},{"startTime":1518.663,"endTime":1522.771,"body":"feel giving up any of this stuff is"},{"startTime":1518.663,"endTime":1522.771,"body":"a, is, I don't know, a detriment."},{"startTime":1522.921,"endTime":1524.271,"body":"Some in some way, shape or form."},{"startTime":1524.271,"endTime":1526.596,"body":"Like, I can't answer why"},{"startTime":1524.271,"endTime":1526.596,"body":"people are the way they are."},{"startTime":1526.596,"endTime":1526.821,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1526.825,"endTime":1528.971,"body":"Like, I don't know what kind of damage"},{"startTime":1526.825,"endTime":1528.971,"body":"they have in their life or whatever."},{"startTime":1529.017,"endTime":1531.892,"body":"this brings us in the last"},{"startTime":1529.017,"endTime":1531.892,"body":"category, continuous discovery."},{"startTime":1532.259,"endTime":1534.876,"body":"The podcast we did not too long ago where"},{"startTime":1532.259,"endTime":1534.876,"body":"we were talking about burnout uh, where"},{"startTime":1534.88,"endTime":1538.442,"body":"we were reading a post from a pm who's,"},{"startTime":1534.88,"endTime":1538.442,"body":"who we think probably was pretty burnt out"},{"startTime":1538.45,"endTime":1540.325,"body":"."},{"startTime":1538.45,"endTime":1540.325,"body":"they probably don't do a"},{"startTime":1540.325,"endTime":1542.6,"body":"They probably don't do a lot of,"},{"startTime":1540.325,"endTime":1542.6,"body":"Oh, what, what's the business"},{"startTime":1542.604,"endTime":1543.425,"body":"problem you're trying to solve?"},{"startTime":1543.5,"endTime":1543.65,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1543.85,"endTime":1545.625,"body":", Well, let me do a couple little trials."},{"startTime":1545.629,"endTime":1549.5,"body":"Let me put some things out there"},{"startTime":1545.629,"endTime":1549.5,"body":"into the ether and see what hits."},{"startTime":1549.9,"endTime":1553.442,"body":"And then depending on what comes back"},{"startTime":1549.9,"endTime":1553.442,"body":"positively, we'll go down that road."},{"startTime":1553.792,"endTime":1554.667,"body":"You know, let me try a few."},{"startTime":1555.067,"endTime":1555.942,"body":"They probably don't do that."},{"startTime":1555.942,"endTime":1558.992,"body":"They probably just are, are completely"},{"startTime":1555.942,"endTime":1558.992,"body":"like, what's, what's the next order?"},{"startTime":1559.017,"endTime":1559.967,"body":"Okay, I cook a cheeseburger."},{"startTime":1559.967,"endTime":1560.692,"body":"Okay, I'll cook a cheeseburger."},{"startTime":1560.692,"endTime":1561.292,"body":"What's the next order?"},{"startTime":1561.292,"endTime":1562.042,"body":"Oh, you want some fries?"},{"startTime":1562.042,"endTime":1562.767,"body":"Okay, I'll cook some fries."},{"startTime":1562.942,"endTime":1564.142,"body":"That, that is probably what they do."},{"startTime":1564.367,"endTime":1567.334,"body":"And their company's a hundred"},{"startTime":1564.367,"endTime":1567.334,"body":"percent happy with them doing that."},{"startTime":1567.434,"endTime":1569.759,"body":"Because the culture is, Hey,"},{"startTime":1567.434,"endTime":1569.759,"body":"just do what I tell you to do."},{"startTime":1570.175,"endTime":1571.742,"body":"You don't, don't, don't"},{"startTime":1570.175,"endTime":1571.742,"body":"question from who, No question."},{"startTime":1571.746,"endTime":1571.925,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1571.925,"endTime":1573.5,"body":"Completely, completely get that."},{"startTime":1573.5,"endTime":1574.8,"body":"Yeah, so they're not empowered."},{"startTime":1574.825,"endTime":1577.125,"body":"I mean, there is no empowerment for them."},{"startTime":1577.275,"endTime":1580.734,"body":"And I, I have struggled with this"},{"startTime":1577.275,"endTime":1580.734,"body":"at many companies where I feel like,"},{"startTime":1581.066,"endTime":1585.099,"body":"From a product ownership perspective"},{"startTime":1581.066,"endTime":1585.099,"body":"in particular, I need to understand"},{"startTime":1585.099,"endTime":1586.849,"body":"my customers or users, right?"},{"startTime":1586.853,"endTime":1589.774,"body":"So if I product, I have a product manager,"},{"startTime":1586.853,"endTime":1589.774,"body":"they need to understand the customers."},{"startTime":1589.982,"endTime":1591.632,"body":"They need to be a SME in that application."},{"startTime":1591.632,"endTime":1595.682,"body":"They need to understand the problems,"},{"startTime":1591.632,"endTime":1595.682,"body":"They need to be able to advocate for"},{"startTime":1595.682,"endTime":1599.407,"body":"them and be able to translate that and"},{"startTime":1595.682,"endTime":1599.407,"body":"answer any questions that might come up."},{"startTime":1599.432,"endTime":1599.507,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1599.732,"endTime":1603.241,"body":"for our development team, when they're"},{"startTime":1599.732,"endTime":1603.241,"body":"trying to, solve for these problems,"},{"startTime":1603.241,"endTime":1605.691,"body":"because I'm gonna give them, Here's"},{"startTime":1603.241,"endTime":1605.691,"body":"the problem we're trying to solve."},{"startTime":1606.016,"endTime":1608.741,"body":"You need to figure out the how and"},{"startTime":1606.016,"endTime":1608.741,"body":"they're gonna have questions and"},{"startTime":1608.741,"endTime":1611.741,"body":"I need to be well versed into, in"},{"startTime":1608.741,"endTime":1611.741,"body":"being able to answer those questions."},{"startTime":1611.941,"endTime":1616.666,"body":"Let's say for example, if I was a director"},{"startTime":1611.941,"endTime":1616.666,"body":"of product or VP product and I were"},{"startTime":1616.941,"endTime":1620.878,"body":"hiring product managers and somebody came"},{"startTime":1616.941,"endTime":1620.878,"body":"through who, their career progression,"},{"startTime":1620.878,"endTime":1623.403,"body":"they started as a product owner and"},{"startTime":1620.878,"endTime":1623.403,"body":"now they were making the transition."},{"startTime":1623.82,"endTime":1626.678,"body":"I would definitely ask them,  tell"},{"startTime":1623.82,"endTime":1626.678,"body":"me about a situation where somebody"},{"startTime":1626.678,"endTime":1627.728,"body":"brought you a feature to build."},{"startTime":1627.835,"endTime":1631.368,"body":"Somebody asked you to build a feature for"},{"startTime":1627.835,"endTime":1631.368,"body":"them, and tell me, did you build a feature"},{"startTime":1631.368,"endTime":1633.81,"body":"for them or did you challenge them on it?"},{"startTime":1633.96,"endTime":1636.482,"body":"And if you challenge 'em on it,"},{"startTime":1633.96,"endTime":1636.482,"body":"tell me what you did because I would"},{"startTime":1636.482,"endTime":1638.774,"body":"expect, I'm gonna show all my cards"},{"startTime":1636.482,"endTime":1638.774,"body":"for the purpose of this conversation."},{"startTime":1639.19,"endTime":1644.082,"body":"What I'm expecting is in the product"},{"startTime":1639.19,"endTime":1644.082,"body":"owner PO job role, I would expect"},{"startTime":1644.407,"endTime":1646.032,"body":"asking why, why am I gonna build that?"},{"startTime":1646.115,"endTime":1646.449,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1646.52,"endTime":1648.932,"body":"I would expect that is not"},{"startTime":1646.52,"endTime":1648.932,"body":"appreciated, number one."},{"startTime":1648.965,"endTime":1651.265,"body":"Let's put my own experience in"},{"startTime":1648.965,"endTime":1651.265,"body":"this category aside for a second."},{"startTime":1651.265,"endTime":1653.065,"body":"Cuz someone will be like, Brian, you"},{"startTime":1651.265,"endTime":1653.065,"body":"don't know what you're talking about."},{"startTime":1653.065,"endTime":1654.015,"body":"Companies would never ask that."},{"startTime":1654.182,"endTime":1656.132,"body":", well, surprise , I think we"},{"startTime":1654.182,"endTime":1656.132,"body":"know who I'm talking about now."},{"startTime":1656.265,"endTime":1658.29,"body":"I was that when I was in the product"},{"startTime":1656.265,"endTime":1658.29,"body":"owner position, Like, why are you"},{"startTime":1658.29,"endTime":1659.715,"body":"asking why I'm telling you to do it?"},{"startTime":1659.715,"endTime":1661.49,"body":"That's why cause your boss"},{"startTime":1659.715,"endTime":1661.49,"body":"said that you should do it."},{"startTime":1661.49,"endTime":1661.94,"body":"That's why."},{"startTime":1662.265,"endTime":1663.49,"body":"And then they'll make"},{"startTime":1662.265,"endTime":1663.49,"body":"it a big thing, right?"},{"startTime":1663.907,"endTime":1667.486,"body":"The difference here is if you're a"},{"startTime":1663.907,"endTime":1667.486,"body":"product owner, as a job role, your"},{"startTime":1667.49,"endTime":1671.686,"body":"mind doesn't immediately switch to"},{"startTime":1667.49,"endTime":1671.686,"body":"continuous discovery as a mindset."},{"startTime":1671.811,"endTime":1671.886,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1672.161,"endTime":1674.161,"body":"of what makes you think that"},{"startTime":1672.161,"endTime":1674.161,"body":"is what we should build."},{"startTime":1674.161,"endTime":1676.828,"body":"Now,  instead of getting straight"},{"startTime":1674.161,"endTime":1676.828,"body":"to work, building it and designing"},{"startTime":1676.832,"endTime":1680.445,"body":"architecture and doing whatever I"},{"startTime":1676.832,"endTime":1680.445,"body":"need to get to work, validating that"},{"startTime":1680.445,"endTime":1682.02,"body":"that is the top thing we should do."},{"startTime":1682.436,"endTime":1685.386,"body":"So I need to work backwards from the"},{"startTime":1682.436,"endTime":1685.386,"body":"feature you, you told me, but Mr."},{"startTime":1685.486,"endTime":1686.486,"body":"Internal user, or Mr."},{"startTime":1686.486,"endTime":1687.636,"body":"Vp or Mr."},{"startTime":1687.661,"endTime":1688.786,"body":"You know, C level executive, whatever."},{"startTime":1688.911,"endTime":1691.645,"body":"I need to work backwards from what"},{"startTime":1688.911,"endTime":1691.645,"body":"you told me to get to the business"},{"startTime":1691.649,"endTime":1695.253,"body":"problem, to validate the business"},{"startTime":1691.649,"endTime":1695.253,"body":"problem, to then work forward to"},{"startTime":1695.67,"endTime":1697.02,"body":"a solution that will solve that."},{"startTime":1697.436,"endTime":1702.036,"body":"All while experimenting, getting data"},{"startTime":1697.436,"endTime":1702.036,"body":"and stats and then making this decision"},{"startTime":1702.036,"endTime":1703.761,"body":"with you based on the data available"},{"startTime":1704.178,"endTime":1706.178,"body":"that negotiation, driving"},{"startTime":1704.178,"endTime":1706.178,"body":"and all kind of stuff."},{"startTime":1706.403,"endTime":1710.453,"body":"I would expect someone with a job title of"},{"startTime":1706.403,"endTime":1710.453,"body":"PO, who's in the PO role for a Scrum team."},{"startTime":1710.87,"endTime":1712.995,"body":"I would expect they don't have a"},{"startTime":1710.87,"endTime":1712.995,"body":"lot of experience going through"},{"startTime":1713.003,"endTime":1713.928,"body":"what I just talked about."},{"startTime":1714.078,"endTime":1718.02,"body":"Whereas someone who's in, someone who's"},{"startTime":1714.078,"endTime":1718.02,"body":"moving over from a PM role in another"},{"startTime":1718.02,"endTime":1721.303,"body":"company, I would, I'd ask 'em the"},{"startTime":1718.02,"endTime":1721.303,"body":"same question, , to start, I asked 'em"},{"startTime":1721.303,"endTime":1724.603,"body":"the same question, but I would expect"},{"startTime":1721.303,"endTime":1724.603,"body":"that they already had this skill."},{"startTime":1725.02,"endTime":1728.678,"body":"At negotiation and the skill at,"},{"startTime":1725.02,"endTime":1728.678,"body":"dealing with stakeholders and the,"},{"startTime":1728.803,"endTime":1731.528,"body":"that the ability to operate a strategic"},{"startTime":1728.803,"endTime":1731.528,"body":"level, that's what I'm trying to say."},{"startTime":1731.528,"endTime":1734.803,"body":"The ability to operate at a strategic"},{"startTime":1731.528,"endTime":1734.803,"body":"level, which is where I need them to be"},{"startTime":1734.928,"endTime":1738.378,"body":"in order to make continuous discovery"},{"startTime":1734.928,"endTime":1738.378,"body":"stick and continue to be a part of the"},{"startTime":1738.378,"endTime":1741.378,"body":"culture at the company, which I'm trying"},{"startTime":1738.378,"endTime":1741.378,"body":"to encourage as a director of product,"},{"startTime":1741.628,"endTime":1742.653,"body":"are you searching for answers right now?"},{"startTime":1742.678,"endTime":1744.078,"body":"Cause there's gonna be no"},{"startTime":1742.678,"endTime":1744.078,"body":"answers on the internet."},{"startTime":1744.253,"endTime":1745.603,"body":"No, I'm not, I'm not"},{"startTime":1744.253,"endTime":1745.603,"body":"searching for answers."},{"startTime":1745.603,"endTime":1746.428,"body":"No, I agree with you."},{"startTime":1746.636,"endTime":1749.011,"body":"The situation that I walked into"},{"startTime":1746.636,"endTime":1749.011,"body":"now with the company that I'm"},{"startTime":1749.011,"endTime":1751.386,"body":"working with, with, by the way,"},{"startTime":1749.011,"endTime":1751.386,"body":"I'm super excited about mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1751.636,"endTime":1752.811,"body":"we have a lot to work on."},{"startTime":1753.228,"endTime":1754.853,"body":"I, but we have great people."},{"startTime":1754.903,"endTime":1759.253,"body":"We have a great product, and I"},{"startTime":1754.903,"endTime":1759.253,"body":"have leadership that I am feeling"},{"startTime":1759.253,"endTime":1762.078,"body":"really confident that are on"},{"startTime":1759.253,"endTime":1762.078,"body":"board to make this change, right?"},{"startTime":1762.203,"endTime":1762.278,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1762.482,"endTime":1762.486,"body":", mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1762.903,"endTime":1770.486,"body":". So but as it is right now, it is a"},{"startTime":1762.903,"endTime":1770.486,"body":"list of requests, service enhancement."},{"startTime":1770.486,"endTime":1773.903,"body":"So service requests, enhancement"},{"startTime":1770.486,"endTime":1773.903,"body":"requests, no questions asked, just"},{"startTime":1774.32,"endTime":1779.411,"body":"sent in and put into a backlog that"},{"startTime":1774.32,"endTime":1779.411,"body":"isn't prioritized by any one person."},{"startTime":1779.411,"endTime":1781.715,"body":"They haven't had anybody in"},{"startTime":1779.411,"endTime":1781.715,"body":"product so I'm here to fix this."},{"startTime":1782.132,"endTime":1783.257,"body":"and then they just work top to bottom."},{"startTime":1783.674,"endTime":1786.024,"body":"Companies that I have seen that"},{"startTime":1783.674,"endTime":1786.024,"body":"are like that, it's usually a"},{"startTime":1786.024,"endTime":1789.724,"body":"technical person who is in charge"},{"startTime":1786.024,"endTime":1789.724,"body":"of the list that you just specified."},{"startTime":1789.774,"endTime":1793.332,"body":"And usually when I have come into those"},{"startTime":1789.774,"endTime":1793.332,"body":"companies, The technical person is"},{"startTime":1793.357,"endTime":1796.357,"body":"relieved to be like, Oh, thank goodness"},{"startTime":1793.357,"endTime":1796.357,"body":"I have a product person to answer"},{"startTime":1796.357,"endTime":1797.632,"body":"all the when's that's gonna be done."},{"startTime":1797.632,"endTime":1798.707,"body":"Where's the priorities?"},{"startTime":1798.832,"endTime":1799.907,"body":"What's gonna be done in what order?"},{"startTime":1799.907,"endTime":1802.053,"body":"Cuz , I want to get back to"},{"startTime":1799.907,"endTime":1802.053,"body":"architecture and development and"},{"startTime":1802.057,"endTime":1804.853,"body":"building a better system and I have"},{"startTime":1802.057,"endTime":1804.853,"body":"no interest in doing all this stuff"},{"startTime":1805.078,"endTime":1809.578,"body":"Basically I, I find a developer sitting"},{"startTime":1805.078,"endTime":1809.578,"body":"in a product position who the company"},{"startTime":1809.59,"endTime":1814.132,"body":"has not worked to get them any of"},{"startTime":1809.59,"endTime":1814.132,"body":"the skills that product people have."},{"startTime":1814.182,"endTime":1814.357,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1814.357,"endTime":1816.107,"body":"That the individual"},{"startTime":1814.357,"endTime":1816.107,"body":"person has not gone in."},{"startTime":1816.107,"endTime":1818.524,"body":"Like there's a certain part of this,"},{"startTime":1816.107,"endTime":1818.524,"body":"somebody might be screaming at the"},{"startTime":1818.528,"endTime":1821.099,"body":"video and be like, Well, just your"},{"startTime":1818.528,"endTime":1821.099,"body":"personal responsibility to go get"},{"startTime":1821.099,"endTime":1823.099,"body":"the skills that you need and to"},{"startTime":1821.099,"endTime":1823.099,"body":"succeed in the job or whatever."},{"startTime":1823.349,"endTime":1826.649,"body":"I'm like, Ah, you're already"},{"startTime":1823.349,"endTime":1826.649,"body":"buried working, so 70 hours', I'm"},{"startTime":1826.649,"endTime":1827.815,"body":"saying your head about water, man."},{"startTime":1827.924,"endTime":1831.015,"body":"To a point, to a point, I"},{"startTime":1827.924,"endTime":1831.015,"body":"understand the argument."},{"startTime":1831.057,"endTime":1834.657,"body":"But also that's the same way I feel"},{"startTime":1831.057,"endTime":1834.657,"body":"as like the product manager slash"},{"startTime":1834.657,"endTime":1835.882,"body":"product owner who has six teams."},{"startTime":1836.107,"endTime":1838.682,"body":"It's like, well, you should take it"},{"startTime":1836.107,"endTime":1838.682,"body":"on your personal responsibility to"},{"startTime":1838.682,"endTime":1841.174,"body":"do as best as possible to serve all"},{"startTime":1838.682,"endTime":1841.174,"body":"the teams and, you can ask for all"},{"startTime":1841.174,"endTime":1842.699,"body":"the help you want, but what's gonna"},{"startTime":1841.174,"endTime":1842.699,"body":"happen when the company, mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1842.974,"endTime":1845.899,"body":". Goes six months trying to hire"},{"startTime":1842.974,"endTime":1845.899,"body":"another product, make the budget"},{"startTime":1845.965,"endTime":1848.74,"body":"thing, and send it to the leadership"},{"startTime":1845.965,"endTime":1848.74,"body":"team and get it voted on by the"},{"startTime":1848.74,"endTime":1849.891,"body":"shareholders and blah, blah, blah."},{"startTime":1849.895,"endTime":1850.64,"body":"Get the position funded."},{"startTime":1850.79,"endTime":1852.79,"body":"Meanwhile, you got six"},{"startTime":1850.79,"endTime":1852.79,"body":"teams for six months."},{"startTime":1853.024,"endTime":1854.724,"body":"Everything I'm talking about"},{"startTime":1853.024,"endTime":1854.724,"body":"with like, Oh, well you should"},{"startTime":1854.724,"endTime":1855.724,"body":"be doing continuous discovery."},{"startTime":1855.724,"endTime":1856.949,"body":"You should be vetting like ideas."},{"startTime":1856.953,"endTime":1858.607,"body":"You should be, Oh, what makes"},{"startTime":1856.953,"endTime":1858.607,"body":"you think for six teams?"},{"startTime":1858.624,"endTime":1859.699,"body":"What makes you think we"},{"startTime":1858.624,"endTime":1859.699,"body":"should be doing that?"},{"startTime":1859.749,"endTime":1862.599,"body":"Like the, those kind of good"},{"startTime":1859.749,"endTime":1862.599,"body":"practices and everything I'm talking"},{"startTime":1862.603,"endTime":1866.24,"body":"about, when you are, when you are"},{"startTime":1862.603,"endTime":1866.24,"body":"overloaded those good practices are"},{"startTime":1866.44,"endTime":1867.54,"body":"the first things to go by the wayside."},{"startTime":1867.54,"endTime":1867.765,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1868.04,"endTime":1870.945,"body":"Same thing with talking to customers"},{"startTime":1868.04,"endTime":1870.945,"body":"and validating, like you know, the other"},{"startTime":1870.945,"endTime":1873.215,"body":"thing that goes out that goes by the"},{"startTime":1870.945,"endTime":1873.215,"body":"wayside is who, he's freaking me out."},{"startTime":1873.415,"endTime":1875.015,"body":"The other thing that goes"},{"startTime":1873.415,"endTime":1875.015,"body":"by the wayside is like, What"},{"startTime":1875.19,"endTime":1875.99,"body":"kinda shoes that guy wearing."},{"startTime":1876.265,"endTime":1880.624,"body":"The other thing that goes by the wayside"},{"startTime":1876.265,"endTime":1880.624,"body":"is , when you release features, following"},{"startTime":1880.624,"endTime":1883.849,"body":"up with customers to talk about, Hey,"},{"startTime":1880.624,"endTime":1883.849,"body":"what did you like, What didn't you like?"},{"startTime":1883.849,"endTime":1884.799,"body":"Let me run some surveys."},{"startTime":1885.215,"endTime":1887.165,"body":"Like, that's, that's the other"},{"startTime":1885.215,"endTime":1887.165,"body":"thing that goes by the wayside."},{"startTime":1887.165,"endTime":1887.69,"body":"Optimization."},{"startTime":1887.715,"endTime":1888.332,"body":"Uh, yeah."},{"startTime":1888.332,"endTime":1888.865,"body":"Amazing."},{"startTime":1889.282,"endTime":1891.607,"body":"Just verifying with your customers,"},{"startTime":1889.282,"endTime":1891.607,"body":"like, Hey, what we released,"},{"startTime":1891.757,"endTime":1892.982,"body":"like, did it solve your problem?"},{"startTime":1892.982,"endTime":1893.757,"body":"Like, gimme some metrics."},{"startTime":1893.757,"endTime":1894.257,"body":"Let's talk."},{"startTime":1894.257,"endTime":1894.632,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1894.682,"endTime":1896.857,"body":"That's another thing cuz you're"},{"startTime":1894.682,"endTime":1896.857,"body":"just like trying to throw features"},{"startTime":1896.857,"endTime":1898.732,"body":"out as quickly as possible and"},{"startTime":1896.857,"endTime":1898.732,"body":"just move on to the next fire."},{"startTime":1898.882,"endTime":1899.032,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1899.036,"endTime":1901.211,"body":"You don't care, until they"},{"startTime":1899.036,"endTime":1901.211,"body":"start complaining again."},{"startTime":1901.211,"endTime":1903.186,"body":"You're on, you're on to the next fire."},{"startTime":1903.186,"endTime":1905.561,"body":"If you're not giving the resources and"},{"startTime":1903.186,"endTime":1905.561,"body":"you're not giving the trust to your"},{"startTime":1905.561,"endTime":1910.353,"body":"team, PO included, they're part of"},{"startTime":1905.561,"endTime":1910.353,"body":"the team and you are  over extending"},{"startTime":1910.353,"endTime":1914.058,"body":"them shortcuts will be made because"},{"startTime":1910.353,"endTime":1914.058,"body":"that's the only way to move forward."},{"startTime":1914.063,"endTime":1914.4,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1914.817,"endTime":1919.217,"body":"And you are going to put out a"},{"startTime":1914.817,"endTime":1919.217,"body":"crappy product that will become"},{"startTime":1919.567,"endTime":1921.817,"body":"exponentially more crappy."},{"startTime":1922.05,"endTime":1924.225,"body":"We're all the way back to being in a"},{"startTime":1922.05,"endTime":1924.225,"body":"podcast now where we were talking about"},{"startTime":1924.225,"endTime":1927.575,"body":"the difference between like a po you're"},{"startTime":1924.225,"endTime":1927.575,"body":"gonna be assigned a team like, Hey, this"},{"startTime":1927.575,"endTime":1929.725,"body":"is your team now, or your team's now."},{"startTime":1929.85,"endTime":1932.3,"body":"Like that's the difference between"},{"startTime":1929.85,"endTime":1932.3,"body":"them and a product manager, product"},{"startTime":1932.3,"endTime":1935.367,"body":"manager is probably gonna lobby"},{"startTime":1932.3,"endTime":1935.367,"body":"to say, Hey my team is working on"},{"startTime":1935.45,"endTime":1936.525,"body":"several different products now."},{"startTime":1936.842,"endTime":1939.842,"body":"it's time to split the team and"},{"startTime":1936.842,"endTime":1939.842,"body":"to split the backlog to have two"},{"startTime":1939.842,"endTime":1942.167,"body":"different product backlogs because"},{"startTime":1939.842,"endTime":1942.167,"body":"these products are very different."},{"startTime":1942.167,"endTime":1945.492,"body":"They're, they're probably going to be"},{"startTime":1942.167,"endTime":1945.492,"body":"the ones lobbying to say, Hey, we need"},{"startTime":1945.496,"endTime":1946.917,"body":"to split the finances of these products."},{"startTime":1946.917,"endTime":1949.317,"body":"We need to, cuz the, maybe the market"},{"startTime":1946.917,"endTime":1949.317,"body":"is not the same, same, hopefully maybe"},{"startTime":1949.317,"endTime":1950.542,"body":"the customers are not the same anymore."},{"startTime":1950.542,"endTime":1954.675,"body":"Maybe hey, the customer customer B"},{"startTime":1950.542,"endTime":1954.675,"body":"is in a different market and they've"},{"startTime":1954.675,"endTime":1957.125,"body":"adopted this product cuz it kind of works"},{"startTime":1954.675,"endTime":1957.125,"body":"for them, but it doesn't really work."},{"startTime":1957.225,"endTime":1958.45,"body":"Like we should split the team."},{"startTime":1958.45,"endTime":1959.475,"body":"We should split the finances."},{"startTime":1959.475,"endTime":1961.875,"body":"We should, I don't know, give 'em a"},{"startTime":1959.475,"endTime":1961.875,"body":"white label app or whatever, whatever"},{"startTime":1961.875,"endTime":1965.775,"body":"it is, and give them their own stream of"},{"startTime":1961.875,"endTime":1965.775,"body":"development and features and whatever."},{"startTime":1965.775,"endTime":1970.721,"body":"The PM is more likely than the"},{"startTime":1965.775,"endTime":1970.721,"body":"po in, in this, in my experience"},{"startTime":1970.721,"endTime":1971.446,"body":"here, what we're talking about."},{"startTime":1971.863,"endTime":1972.588,"body":"I'll just clarify to lobby."},{"startTime":1973.004,"endTime":1977.996,"body":"I'll just clarify and that is a good"},{"startTime":1973.004,"endTime":1977.996,"body":"PM . So here's the reason that I say"},{"startTime":1977.996,"endTime":1982.863,"body":"that is because I, that worked with,"},{"startTime":1977.996,"endTime":1982.863,"body":"I've worked with PMs who are just Yes."},{"startTime":1982.863,"endTime":1986.129,"body":"Men or women, and maybe they're"},{"startTime":1982.863,"endTime":1986.129,"body":"trying to climb the ladder."},{"startTime":1986.129,"endTime":1988.654,"body":"Maybe they're, you know,"},{"startTime":1986.129,"endTime":1988.654,"body":"padding their resume."},{"startTime":1988.654,"endTime":1990.879,"body":"Maybe they just don't"},{"startTime":1988.654,"endTime":1990.879,"body":"know how to do their job."},{"startTime":1990.883,"endTime":1991.779,"body":"I mean, I don't know."},{"startTime":1992.196,"endTime":1996.471,"body":"But they end up being the enemy of the"},{"startTime":1992.196,"endTime":1996.471,"body":"product because they're, they aren't"},{"startTime":1996.546,"endTime":2000.446,"body":"being the ones that are recognizing"},{"startTime":1996.546,"endTime":2000.446,"body":"and buffering and finding the"},{"startTime":2000.45,"endTime":2002.871,"body":"opportunities to make our product better."},{"startTime":2002.917,"endTime":2006.792,"body":"they're just making the sales and the"},{"startTime":2002.917,"endTime":2006.792,"body":"marketing and the leadership team, and"},{"startTime":2006.792,"endTime":2009.792,"body":"they're feeding, you know, they're,"},{"startTime":2006.792,"endTime":2009.792,"body":"they're just basically rolling all"},{"startTime":2009.792,"endTime":2014.117,"body":"this stuff down to product or to"},{"startTime":2009.792,"endTime":2014.117,"body":"devs to do, because they said so,"},{"startTime":2014.192,"endTime":2016.654,"body":"Oh boy, you're cutting into a whole"},{"startTime":2014.192,"endTime":2016.654,"body":"nother podcast that I want to have."},{"startTime":2016.654,"endTime":2019.296,"body":"I don't know if it'll actually be"},{"startTime":2016.654,"endTime":2019.296,"body":"useful to anyone, but like, it sounds"},{"startTime":2019.296,"endTime":2022.196,"body":"like all the people I work with who"},{"startTime":2019.296,"endTime":2022.196,"body":"were marketing people who got hired"},{"startTime":2022.196,"endTime":2025.096,"body":"into the PM role and didn't actually"},{"startTime":2022.196,"endTime":2025.096,"body":"know how to do it, like they, the,"},{"startTime":2025.096,"endTime":2027.896,"body":"or a diagram that I showed earlier"},{"startTime":2025.096,"endTime":2027.896,"body":"with the tactical and the operations"},{"startTime":2027.896,"endTime":2030.721,"body":"and the strategic, like, they're,"},{"startTime":2027.896,"endTime":2030.721,"body":"they're in the strategic category."},{"startTime":2030.721,"endTime":2030.796,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2031.129,"endTime":2031.871,"body":", but now they have development teams."},{"startTime":2031.871,"endTime":2032.721,"body":"They don't know how to do the other."},{"startTime":2033.138,"endTime":2034.588,"body":"They, they never did it in their career."},{"startTime":2034.588,"endTime":2037.092,"body":"They never did the other,"},{"startTime":2034.588,"endTime":2037.092,"body":"or I think of like MBA grads"},{"startTime":2037.267,"endTime":2038.817,"body":"who become PMs outta school."},{"startTime":2039.233,"endTime":2041.783,"body":"They don't know how to do any of"},{"startTime":2039.233,"endTime":2041.783,"body":"the categories, quite honestly."},{"startTime":2041.788,"endTime":2043.489,"body":"So, like, it's another podcast."},{"startTime":2043.522,"endTime":2046.147,"body":"I kinda wanna keep it out, this"},{"startTime":2043.522,"endTime":2046.147,"body":"podcast just to not muddy the waters."},{"startTime":2046.189,"endTime":2047.564,"body":"and figure out what I wanna"},{"startTime":2046.189,"endTime":2047.564,"body":"say on the topic rather than"},{"startTime":2047.564,"endTime":2048.464,"body":"just harping on 'em all night."},{"startTime":2048.881,"endTime":2052.143,"body":"It's page six if you wanna see it,"},{"startTime":2048.881,"endTime":2052.143,"body":"but this is Bob Galen's but I believe"},{"startTime":2052.143,"endTime":2055.018,"body":"this is from his version one, but"},{"startTime":2052.143,"endTime":2055.018,"body":"he's actually in version two, added a"},{"startTime":2055.018,"endTime":2057.493,"body":"fifth quadrant, which I know, and it"},{"startTime":2055.018,"endTime":2057.493,"body":"makes no sense, but it's self-care."},{"startTime":2057.552,"endTime":2060.602,"body":"So product manager, leader, project"},{"startTime":2057.552,"endTime":2060.602,"body":"manager, business analyst, The, Yep."},{"startTime":2060.602,"endTime":2062.652,"body":"I'll show this on the screen when"},{"startTime":2060.602,"endTime":2062.652,"body":"we, when we cut the podcast, but"},{"startTime":2062.81,"endTime":2066.131,"body":"under his number one product manager"},{"startTime":2062.81,"endTime":2066.131,"body":"category, and look, cause I say"},{"startTime":2066.131,"endTime":2067.006,"body":"this to my leadership all the time."},{"startTime":2067.014,"endTime":2068.589,"body":"I can't invent a strategy for you."},{"startTime":2068.764,"endTime":2071.339,"body":"Like if your leadership has no strategy,"},{"startTime":2068.764,"endTime":2071.339,"body":"I can try to kill, like I'll go out"},{"startTime":2071.339,"endTime":2072.189,"body":"and die on the battlefield for you."},{"startTime":2072.606,"endTime":2074.656,"body":", if you have no strategy,"},{"startTime":2072.606,"endTime":2074.656,"body":"it's going to show."},{"startTime":2074.806,"endTime":2074.956,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2075.156,"endTime":2077.856,"body":", the team's gonna know it, the customer's"},{"startTime":2075.156,"endTime":2077.856,"body":"gonna know it, everyone's gonna know it."},{"startTime":2078.039,"endTime":2081.181,"body":"So in category one, you"},{"startTime":2078.039,"endTime":2081.181,"body":"have to run a good business."},{"startTime":2081.597,"endTime":2084.047,"body":"So that, that's like where you, where"},{"startTime":2081.597,"endTime":2084.047,"body":"I thought you were gonna go with the"},{"startTime":2084.052,"endTime":2086.418,"body":"product owner thing , where you're"},{"startTime":2084.052,"endTime":2086.418,"body":"looking out for the ROI of the product"},{"startTime":2086.46,"endTime":2090.802,"body":"but , you need to know what"},{"startTime":2086.46,"endTime":2090.802,"body":"good business metrics are."},{"startTime":2091.218,"endTime":2094.606,"body":"And I would say a lot of times"},{"startTime":2091.218,"endTime":2094.606,"body":"pos are not exposed to what"},{"startTime":2094.606,"endTime":2095.839,"body":"makes a good business metric."},{"startTime":2095.881,"endTime":2098.806,"body":"Hey, how easy is it for someone you"},{"startTime":2095.881,"endTime":2098.806,"body":"know, whatever, off the street, whatever,"},{"startTime":2098.806,"endTime":2102.056,"body":"to pick up, subscribe, start using,"},{"startTime":2098.806,"endTime":2102.056,"body":"and start paying for our application."},{"startTime":2102.056,"endTime":2102.606,"body":"Like, basically."},{"startTime":2102.706,"endTime":2107.106,"body":"And, and what is the cost that we"},{"startTime":2102.706,"endTime":2107.106,"body":"incur whenever we bring on a new user?"},{"startTime":2107.522,"endTime":2111.147,"body":"Do we have to go, you know, like"},{"startTime":2107.522,"endTime":2111.147,"body":"back in like 2000 in, in like the mid"},{"startTime":2111.147,"endTime":2114.289,"body":"two thousands when you had to go run"},{"startTime":2111.147,"endTime":2114.289,"body":"out and, you know, install servers"},{"startTime":2114.289,"endTime":2117.247,"body":"in a rack and go send an engineer"},{"startTime":2114.289,"endTime":2117.247,"body":"with whatever, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2117.247,"endTime":2119.422,"body":"A hard drive in their pocket"},{"startTime":2117.247,"endTime":2119.422,"body":"to go install the software."},{"startTime":2119.497,"endTime":2121.272,"body":"You know, like the, like the"},{"startTime":2119.497,"endTime":2121.272,"body":"cost you acquire literally"},{"startTime":2121.277,"endTime":2122.672,"body":"was thousands of dollars Yeah."},{"startTime":2122.697,"endTime":2123.272,"body":"To set up a new user."},{"startTime":2123.689,"endTime":2125.839,"body":"Is it that and, and, and,"},{"startTime":2123.689,"endTime":2125.839,"body":"and the speed as well."},{"startTime":2125.864,"endTime":2126.214,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2126.214,"endTime":2129.289,"body":"Like, it takes you two weeks, you gotta"},{"startTime":2126.214,"endTime":2129.289,"body":"fly out there, they gotta schedule and"},{"startTime":2129.289,"endTime":2130.239,"body":"they gotta do this and they gotta do that."},{"startTime":2130.347,"endTime":2133.881,"body":"So there are some business metrics,"},{"startTime":2130.347,"endTime":2133.881,"body":"you know that the good product"},{"startTime":2133.881,"endTime":2135.056,"body":"managers will keep an eye on."},{"startTime":2135.206,"endTime":2137.897,"body":"I really like, I want to go"},{"startTime":2135.206,"endTime":2137.897,"body":"down the road that you've kind"},{"startTime":2137.897,"endTime":2139.389,"body":"of opened the gate and shit."},{"startTime":2139.389,"endTime":2142.831,"body":"Hey, look, here's the road we can go"},{"startTime":2139.389,"endTime":2142.831,"body":"down of what makes product managers bad?"},{"startTime":2142.831,"endTime":2143.131,"body":"Burnt out."},{"startTime":2143.135,"endTime":2143.506,"body":"Product manager."},{"startTime":2143.51,"endTime":2144.031,"body":"Like, you're right."},{"startTime":2144.031,"endTime":2146.831,"body":"Like they, they could already"},{"startTime":2144.031,"endTime":2146.831,"body":"come in not with the right skill."},{"startTime":2147.081,"endTime":2148.656,"body":"They could have come in , for bad reasons."},{"startTime":2148.906,"endTime":2152.077,"body":"management does this a lot with , the"},{"startTime":2148.906,"endTime":2152.077,"body":"higher, the position in product"},{"startTime":2152.077,"endTime":2155.527,"body":"management, the kind of hit or miss"},{"startTime":2152.077,"endTime":2155.527,"body":"they do this with cuz, private equity"},{"startTime":2155.527,"endTime":2156.402,"body":"firms will do that all the time."},{"startTime":2156.406,"endTime":2158.652,"body":"They'll, they'll hire a chief"},{"startTime":2156.406,"endTime":2158.652,"body":"product officer who has no product"},{"startTime":2158.652,"endTime":2159.727,"body":"management experience at all."},{"startTime":2159.877,"endTime":2161.202,"body":"Fortunate, I've never worked for private."},{"startTime":2161.477,"endTime":2161.802,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2161.802,"endTime":2163.452,"body":"Well, I just, I stay in healthcare."},{"startTime":2163.456,"endTime":2165.877,"body":"That's, if you're, if you're a product"},{"startTime":2163.456,"endTime":2165.877,"body":"person is a sales per, if you go"},{"startTime":2165.877,"endTime":2168.668,"body":"look at their background as all sales"},{"startTime":2165.877,"endTime":2168.668,"body":"positions, you have a big problem."},{"startTime":2169.085,"endTime":2171.968,"body":"All right, well I don't know how much this"},{"startTime":2169.085,"endTime":2171.968,"body":"in this last bit of the podcast I'm gonna"},{"startTime":2171.972,"endTime":2174.11,"body":"leave in cuz uh, we got dark near the end."},{"startTime":2174.114,"endTime":2178.81,"body":"But moving from a product owner job"},{"startTime":2174.114,"endTime":2178.81,"body":"role to a product manager job role."},{"startTime":2179.227,"endTime":2182.727,"body":"So I told you my thoughts in"},{"startTime":2179.227,"endTime":2182.727,"body":"regards to the progression, if that"},{"startTime":2182.731,"endTime":2186.593,"body":"was a natural or progression from"},{"startTime":2182.731,"endTime":2186.593,"body":"product owner to product manager."},{"startTime":2186.718,"endTime":2187.943,"body":"Do you feel like that's the case?"},{"startTime":2188.36,"endTime":2189.41,"body":"It, it could be."},{"startTime":2189.685,"endTime":2191.51,"body":"It could be like I got my"},{"startTime":2189.685,"endTime":2191.51,"body":"start as a product owner."},{"startTime":2191.543,"endTime":2194.614,"body":"But again, like my, my experience was"},{"startTime":2191.543,"endTime":2194.614,"body":"Hey, you got an idea for the product."},{"startTime":2194.656,"endTime":2195.431,"body":", well great job kid."},{"startTime":2195.431,"endTime":2196.431,"body":"The adults will take it from here."},{"startTime":2196.631,"endTime":2198.181,"body":"That, that was what it was"},{"startTime":2196.631,"endTime":2198.181,"body":"handled at that company."},{"startTime":2198.439,"endTime":2201.722,"body":"Cuz , the product management aspects,"},{"startTime":2198.439,"endTime":2201.722,"body":"they didn't want someone to do that job."},{"startTime":2201.947,"endTime":2202.022,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2202.222,"endTime":2204.164,"body":"because of the command"},{"startTime":2202.222,"endTime":2204.164,"body":"control nature of the."},{"startTime":2204.581,"endTime":2206.006,"body":"Hierarchy of that organization."},{"startTime":2206.206,"endTime":2206.306,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2206.306,"endTime":2209.631,"body":"Where they actually use a product"},{"startTime":2206.306,"endTime":2209.631,"body":"manager as a manager of people."},{"startTime":2209.656,"endTime":2209.831,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2209.831,"endTime":2210.031,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2210.031,"endTime":2211.647,"body":"Which is completely different."},{"startTime":2211.647,"endTime":2211.914,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2211.918,"endTime":2213.706,"body":"That, that organization"},{"startTime":2211.918,"endTime":2213.706,"body":"would've been that way."},{"startTime":2213.71,"endTime":2213.956,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2214.181,"endTime":2217.147,"body":"Um, and uh, I did a product owner there"},{"startTime":2214.181,"endTime":2217.147,"body":"and I became a product manager at the"},{"startTime":2217.152,"endTime":2219.747,"body":"next company because that, that's,"},{"startTime":2217.152,"endTime":2219.747,"body":"that it set me on a path mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2219.947,"endTime":2221.122,"body":"to say like, well this is kind of silly."},{"startTime":2221.122,"endTime":2224.947,"body":"Like I am the person who most interacts"},{"startTime":2221.122,"endTime":2224.947,"body":"with customers and the features and"},{"startTime":2224.947,"endTime":2228.297,"body":"the product, and I am taking the vision"},{"startTime":2224.947,"endTime":2228.297,"body":"and direction and bringing it down."},{"startTime":2228.302,"endTime":2231.028,"body":"Like, why am I not involved"},{"startTime":2228.302,"endTime":2231.028,"body":"in all this stuff that I know"},{"startTime":2231.028,"endTime":2232.303,"body":"best cuz I live it every day."},{"startTime":2232.428,"endTime":2232.503,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2232.753,"endTime":2235.278,"body":"and I started looking at trainings"},{"startTime":2232.753,"endTime":2235.278,"body":"and I started looking at literature."},{"startTime":2235.278,"endTime":2236.853,"body":"I started reading books and"},{"startTime":2235.278,"endTime":2236.853,"body":"I started realizing like, Oh"},{"startTime":2236.853,"endTime":2238.578,"body":"no, no, no, no, I'm not crazy."},{"startTime":2238.703,"endTime":2240.178,"body":"This is actually the"},{"startTime":2238.703,"endTime":2240.178,"body":"way it's supposed to be."},{"startTime":2240.228,"endTime":2240.478,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2240.603,"endTime":2243.178,"body":". So I went and got a, a proper"},{"startTime":2240.603,"endTime":2243.178,"body":"job as a product manager."},{"startTime":2243.178,"endTime":2243.253,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2243.453,"endTime":2245.611,"body":"where I'm involved in"},{"startTime":2243.453,"endTime":2245.611,"body":"both the advantage there."},{"startTime":2246.028,"endTime":2249.903,"body":"because I could do the tactical level very"},{"startTime":2246.028,"endTime":2249.903,"body":"well, because again, my previous role,"},{"startTime":2249.903,"endTime":2255.086,"body":"they, they specifically tried to keep me"},{"startTime":2249.903,"endTime":2255.086,"body":"in the tactical and out of the strategy."},{"startTime":2255.503,"endTime":2257.003,"body":"I was very good at the tactical mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2257.203,"endTime":2259.378,"body":"so I could concentrate more"},{"startTime":2257.203,"endTime":2259.378,"body":"on the operations and the"},{"startTime":2259.378,"endTime":2260.378,"body":"strategy side of the job."},{"startTime":2260.453,"endTime":2263.257,"body":"Because I knew that is where"},{"startTime":2260.453,"endTime":2263.257,"body":"I needed to learn and, and"},{"startTime":2263.257,"endTime":2265.132,"body":"mature in those areas of my job."},{"startTime":2265.432,"endTime":2270.14,"body":"But I could see starting out as a"},{"startTime":2265.432,"endTime":2270.14,"body":"PM and having to learn everything"},{"startTime":2270.557,"endTime":2272.707,"body":"when you're not artificially being."},{"startTime":2273.124,"endTime":2276.24,"body":"Of any one of the categories"},{"startTime":2273.124,"endTime":2276.24,"body":"for, for quite literally no"},{"startTime":2276.24,"endTime":2277.824,"body":"reason, there's no reason to"},{"startTime":2276.24,"endTime":2277.824,"body":"keep somebody outta the category."},{"startTime":2277.824,"endTime":2280.99,"body":"I sort of have the internal viewpoint,"},{"startTime":2277.824,"endTime":2280.99,"body":"but I sort of don't because like internal"},{"startTime":2280.995,"endTime":2284.39,"body":"meaning the division, meaning the"},{"startTime":2280.995,"endTime":2284.39,"body":"PO is the one who's dealing with the"},{"startTime":2284.39,"endTime":2285.765,"body":"development team on a day to day basis."},{"startTime":2285.765,"endTime":2286.84,"body":"That's the role to the development team."},{"startTime":2286.89,"endTime":2286.965,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2286.99,"endTime":2289.24,"body":"But then the rest of the stuff that"},{"startTime":2286.99,"endTime":2289.24,"body":"you do throughout the organization,"},{"startTime":2289.44,"endTime":2291.615,"body":"out to customers, all that stuff,"},{"startTime":2289.44,"endTime":2291.615,"body":"those are aspects of the PM job."},{"startTime":2291.615,"endTime":2292.215,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2292.632,"endTime":2292.957,"body":".  you."},{"startTime":2292.957,"endTime":2296.557,"body":"Whereas my, like, my opinion on"},{"startTime":2292.957,"endTime":2296.557,"body":"this is whereas you can divide them."},{"startTime":2296.882,"endTime":2300.815,"body":"Like, I think, I think of scaling as a"},{"startTime":2296.882,"endTime":2300.815,"body":"the perfect example of places that I've"},{"startTime":2300.815,"endTime":2302.415,"body":"seen that have divided this role mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2302.615,"endTime":2306.015,"body":", where they have one person that is"},{"startTime":2302.615,"endTime":2306.015,"body":"basically the conduit to customers."},{"startTime":2306.015,"endTime":2308.374,"body":"They have all the relationships"},{"startTime":2306.015,"endTime":2308.374,"body":"already, probably cause they've"},{"startTime":2308.374,"endTime":2308.89,"body":"worked there a long time."},{"startTime":2308.965,"endTime":2309.04,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2309.378,"endTime":2312.39,"body":", they're the business domain"},{"startTime":2309.378,"endTime":2312.39,"body":"subject matter expert already."},{"startTime":2312.807,"endTime":2314.532,"body":"And they know the software pretty well."},{"startTime":2314.607,"endTime":2314.732,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2314.957,"endTime":2317.957,"body":", but they have so many development teams,"},{"startTime":2314.957,"endTime":2317.957,"body":"they just can't be with the teams at all."},{"startTime":2318.082,"endTime":2319.632,"body":"So they hire product owners to help them."},{"startTime":2320.049,"endTime":2324.124,"body":"But those product owners end, end up, like"},{"startTime":2320.049,"endTime":2324.124,"body":"their careers either come up through QA or"},{"startTime":2324.124,"endTime":2326.624,"body":"their careers come up through development"},{"startTime":2324.124,"endTime":2326.624,"body":"or career, or their career comes up"},{"startTime":2326.624,"endTime":2328.099,"body":"through business analysis a lot of time."},{"startTime":2328.103,"endTime":2329.174,"body":"Or project management sometimes."},{"startTime":2329.199,"endTime":2329.274,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2329.524,"endTime":2333.332,"body":". But basically they come on as product"},{"startTime":2329.524,"endTime":2333.332,"body":"owners and they're told to extend"},{"startTime":2333.332,"endTime":2334.532,"body":"the product manager they work for."},{"startTime":2334.949,"endTime":2337.849,"body":"Extend the product manager's capability"},{"startTime":2334.949,"endTime":2337.849,"body":"with all the development teams"},{"startTime":2337.849,"endTime":2338.499,"body":"that are working on the product."},{"startTime":2338.503,"endTime":2340.499,"body":"Cause there are many"},{"startTime":2338.503,"endTime":2340.499,"body":"right at the same time."},{"startTime":2340.915,"endTime":2342.69,"body":"And that's how the business splits things."},{"startTime":2343.107,"endTime":2345.857,"body":"the better model would be for, instead"},{"startTime":2343.107,"endTime":2345.857,"body":"of calling them product owners and"},{"startTime":2345.857,"endTime":2347.932,"body":"then keeping them out of strategy"},{"startTime":2345.857,"endTime":2347.932,"body":"and just having 'em talk to the one"},{"startTime":2347.982,"endTime":2350.257,"body":"product manager to get the strategy,"},{"startTime":2347.982,"endTime":2350.257,"body":"the better model would be to."},{"startTime":2350.674,"endTime":2353.607,"body":"Product managers or associate product"},{"startTime":2350.674,"endTime":2353.607,"body":"managers to note that like they're just"},{"startTime":2353.607,"endTime":2354.482,"body":"getting their start stuff like that."},{"startTime":2354.607,"endTime":2357.082,"body":"And to call the product manager"},{"startTime":2354.607,"endTime":2357.082,"body":"in that example, either a senior"},{"startTime":2357.082,"endTime":2359.357,"body":"product manager or a group product"},{"startTime":2357.082,"endTime":2359.357,"body":"manager for the whole application."},{"startTime":2359.774,"endTime":2359.799,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2359.803,"endTime":2361.774,"body":"And then to, to not"},{"startTime":2359.803,"endTime":2361.774,"body":"play games with titles."},{"startTime":2362.082,"endTime":2364.632,"body":"cuz usually the big"},{"startTime":2362.082,"endTime":2364.632,"body":"difference, we, I'm amazed"},{"startTime":2364.636,"endTime":2365.386,"body":"we haven't talked about this."},{"startTime":2365.786,"endTime":2369.561,"body":"The big difference usually that I've"},{"startTime":2365.786,"endTime":2369.561,"body":"observed between product owner and"},{"startTime":2369.565,"endTime":2371.386,"body":"product manager is about $20,000."},{"startTime":2371.411,"endTime":2372.436,"body":"That's the big difference."},{"startTime":2372.586,"endTime":2373.261,"body":"I've heard you say that before."},{"startTime":2373.47,"endTime":2373.636,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2373.64,"endTime":2376.84,"body":"what I would expect in that where people"},{"startTime":2373.64,"endTime":2376.84,"body":"are like, Oh I'm just gonna get a business"},{"startTime":2376.84,"endTime":2379.615,"body":"analyst and re resettle 'em as product"},{"startTime":2376.84,"endTime":2379.615,"body":"owner and have 'em work and basically"},{"startTime":2379.615,"endTime":2381.115,"body":"do their full job as business analyst."},{"startTime":2381.532,"endTime":2384.257,"body":"Kind of keep 'em out of strategy,"},{"startTime":2381.532,"endTime":2384.257,"body":"kind of keep them out of talking to"},{"startTime":2384.557,"endTime":2386.732,"body":"customers except like, I don't know"},{"startTime":2384.557,"endTime":2386.732,"body":"when they're doing their demo with"},{"startTime":2386.732,"endTime":2387.657,"body":"the rest of the teams or whatever."},{"startTime":2388.074,"endTime":2390.974,"body":"But I'm gonna keep, the real thing is"},{"startTime":2388.074,"endTime":2390.974,"body":"I'm gonna keep my budget real low cause"},{"startTime":2391.024,"endTime":2393.715,"body":"they're not real product managers."},{"startTime":2394.132,"endTime":2401.19,"body":"I have recently tried to find"},{"startTime":2394.132,"endTime":2401.19,"body":"research on transitioning from"},{"startTime":2401.19,"endTime":2402.465,"body":"product owner to product manager."},{"startTime":2402.882,"endTime":2406.107,"body":"There is very little,"},{"startTime":2402.882,"endTime":2406.107,"body":"almost nothing out there."},{"startTime":2406.111,"endTime":2407.007,"body":"There's no books."},{"startTime":2407.007,"endTime":2410.857,"body":"There's no, And so given the fact"},{"startTime":2407.007,"endTime":2410.857,"body":"that you were a product owner"},{"startTime":2410.882,"endTime":2411.874,"body":"and went to product manager."},{"startTime":2411.957,"endTime":2416.707,"body":"Do you have any suggestions, or any"},{"startTime":2411.957,"endTime":2416.707,"body":"particular you know, books or anything"},{"startTime":2416.711,"endTime":2419.107,"body":"that you can think off, off the top of"},{"startTime":2416.711,"endTime":2419.107,"body":"your head that really helped you when"},{"startTime":2419.111,"endTime":2422.482,"body":"you were kind of researching and trying"},{"startTime":2419.111,"endTime":2422.482,"body":"to figure out how to be the best product"},{"startTime":2422.486,"endTime":2426.749,"body":"manager you could be, given the lack"},{"startTime":2422.486,"endTime":2426.749,"body":"of experience you had in that role?"},{"startTime":2426.749,"endTime":2428.274,"body":"Coming from a product owner perspective"},{"startTime":2428.382,"endTime":2431.599,"body":"I would start leaning into, First of all,"},{"startTime":2428.382,"endTime":2431.599,"body":"I, I would be clear with people when you"},{"startTime":2431.599,"endTime":2434.524,"body":"go through interviews of, of why they"},{"startTime":2431.599,"endTime":2434.524,"body":"would be like, Hey, it looks like you"},{"startTime":2434.524,"endTime":2438.832,"body":"don't have a, well, assuming that they"},{"startTime":2434.524,"endTime":2438.832,"body":"are knowledgeable enough to even ask."},{"startTime":2438.903,"endTime":2439.411,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2439.478,"endTime":2440.77,"body":". Cause a lot of companies"},{"startTime":2439.478,"endTime":2440.77,"body":"are just not knowledgeable."},{"startTime":2440.92,"endTime":2443.511,"body":"I, I, I would, I would be straight with"},{"startTime":2440.92,"endTime":2443.511,"body":"them to say you know, why are you looking?"},{"startTime":2443.511,"endTime":2443.846,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2443.85,"endTime":2444.811,"body":"Why, why are you looking to change?"},{"startTime":2444.811,"endTime":2445.136,"body":"Or whatever."},{"startTime":2445.136,"endTime":2447.536,"body":"They'll ask you that question in the"},{"startTime":2445.136,"endTime":2447.536,"body":"interview to be straightforward with them."},{"startTime":2447.536,"endTime":2449.886,"body":"They'd be like, Look, I, I know that"},{"startTime":2447.536,"endTime":2449.886,"body":"in order for my career to progress,"},{"startTime":2449.886,"endTime":2451.136,"body":"I've gotta get to the strategy layer."},{"startTime":2451.211,"endTime":2451.678,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2451.745,"endTime":2454.511,"body":", like, I'm being kept outta the strategy"},{"startTime":2451.745,"endTime":2454.511,"body":"layer in my organization because of"},{"startTime":2454.928,"endTime":2457.82,"body":"whatever organizational blockers,"},{"startTime":2454.928,"endTime":2457.82,"body":"the culture, the leadership team,"},{"startTime":2457.82,"endTime":2458.695,"body":"the fact that they're waterfall,"},{"startTime":2458.695,"endTime":2460.12,"body":"I don't know a million reasons, right?"},{"startTime":2460.245,"endTime":2462.495,"body":"To, to say, Look, I, I'm"},{"startTime":2460.245,"endTime":2462.495,"body":"looking to expand my skill set."},{"startTime":2462.62,"endTime":2466.736,"body":"If you are in a PO role, anybody who"},{"startTime":2462.62,"endTime":2466.736,"body":"is a PM or is, is like a group PM"},{"startTime":2466.736,"endTime":2467.786,"body":"or a larger, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2467.786,"endTime":2470.461,"body":"Has other PMs in the organization,"},{"startTime":2467.786,"endTime":2470.461,"body":"they probably will understand"},{"startTime":2470.561,"endTime":2473.211,"body":"that like you don't have a lot of"},{"startTime":2470.561,"endTime":2473.211,"body":"opportunity to be involved in strategy"},{"startTime":2473.628,"endTime":2476.303,"body":"You need to be in the right"},{"startTime":2473.628,"endTime":2476.303,"body":"type of culture to gain that"},{"startTime":2476.303,"endTime":2477.303,"body":"experience with strategy."},{"startTime":2477.603,"endTime":2478.253,"body":"That's what I'm trying to say."},{"startTime":2478.303,"endTime":2478.378,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2478.795,"endTime":2481.536,"body":"took me a while to get there"},{"startTime":2478.795,"endTime":2481.536,"body":"and to, to be open about that."},{"startTime":2481.561,"endTime":2485.111,"body":"Like, what can you read to like, what I"},{"startTime":2481.561,"endTime":2485.111,"body":"would say is what I was like, the, the"},{"startTime":2485.161,"endTime":2487.011,"body":"I inspired by Marty Kagan is a book."},{"startTime":2487.011,"endTime":2488.453,"body":"I tell everybody, everybody."},{"startTime":2488.453,"endTime":2489.378,"body":"I'm like, You gotta read that."},{"startTime":2489.378,"endTime":2490.978,"body":"Empowered, Inspired and empowered."},{"startTime":2490.978,"endTime":2491.128,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2491.161,"endTime":2491.661,"body":"Inspired."},{"startTime":2491.661,"endTime":2494.378,"body":"You should know the, you should know"},{"startTime":2491.661,"endTime":2494.378,"body":"like the gold standard of the, you"},{"startTime":2494.382,"endTime":2497.353,"body":"know, and people online and stuff"},{"startTime":2494.382,"endTime":2497.353,"body":"will be like, it's not really reality."},{"startTime":2497.353,"endTime":2498.728,"body":"I was like, it doesn't have to be reality."},{"startTime":2499.145,"endTime":2500.77,"body":"It has to be a good goal"},{"startTime":2499.145,"endTime":2500.77,"body":"that you're shooting for."},{"startTime":2500.77,"endTime":2503.986,"body":"And if you can do it where you can,"},{"startTime":2500.77,"endTime":2503.986,"body":"your leadership probably be really happy"},{"startTime":2503.986,"endTime":2505.586,"body":"with you to be doing a little bit of it."},{"startTime":2505.77,"endTime":2505.903,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2505.907,"endTime":2507.936,"body":"As opposed to just being like,"},{"startTime":2505.907,"endTime":2507.936,"body":"Well, what do you wanna build next?"},{"startTime":2507.94,"endTime":2508.111,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2508.111,"endTime":2508.286,"body":"What?"},{"startTime":2508.336,"endTime":2511.104,"body":"You know, And then the metrics"},{"startTime":2508.336,"endTime":2511.104,"body":"turn out, you know, Where you"},{"startTime":2511.104,"endTime":2512.57,"body":"didn't really make an improvement."},{"startTime":2512.779,"endTime":2515.204,"body":"And then if you read that book and"},{"startTime":2512.779,"endTime":2515.204,"body":"it does, you're like, Wow, I don't"},{"startTime":2515.204,"endTime":2516.354,"body":"understand how to apply any of this."},{"startTime":2516.404,"endTime":2519.304,"body":"Like the, the, the escaping the"},{"startTime":2516.404,"endTime":2519.304,"body":"build trap that we just were"},{"startTime":2519.304,"endTime":2520.779,"body":"talking about, the Melissa Perri"},{"startTime":2519.304,"endTime":2520.779,"body":"book that we were talking about."},{"startTime":2521.195,"endTime":2524.37,"body":"That would be the next one, because that,"},{"startTime":2521.195,"endTime":2524.37,"body":"that one is more tactical than Inspired."},{"startTime":2524.445,"endTime":2524.52,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2524.887,"endTime":2527.592,"body":". And that book gives you a"},{"startTime":2524.887,"endTime":2527.592,"body":"good understanding of the"},{"startTime":2527.942,"endTime":2528.742,"body":"divisions, of your roles."},{"startTime":2528.942,"endTime":2531.567,"body":"And she will walk you through like, well,"},{"startTime":2528.942,"endTime":2531.567,"body":"you should be involved in these activities"},{"startTime":2531.567,"endTime":2532.617,"body":"and this is how it should lend itself."},{"startTime":2532.617,"endTime":2536.334,"body":"And you, at that point, you should"},{"startTime":2532.617,"endTime":2536.334,"body":"start realizing like, Oh, this person"},{"startTime":2536.409,"endTime":2537.659,"body":"is in control of that at my company."},{"startTime":2538.075,"endTime":2539.759,"body":"And between those two books."},{"startTime":2539.763,"endTime":2540.134,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2540.2,"endTime":2543.809,"body":", you should know enough to say, we"},{"startTime":2540.2,"endTime":2543.809,"body":"don't really experiment and try things."},{"startTime":2543.909,"endTime":2543.984,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2544.188,"endTime":2545.409,"body":", we just do what people tell us."},{"startTime":2545.459,"endTime":2545.609,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":2545.784,"endTime":2548.984,"body":"And then if you're operating that"},{"startTime":2545.784,"endTime":2548.984,"body":"way and you have that like moment of"},{"startTime":2548.984,"endTime":2551.734,"body":"inspiration from reading those two books,"},{"startTime":2548.984,"endTime":2551.734,"body":"you probably also realize that you're"},{"startTime":2551.734,"endTime":2553.109,"body":"separated from talking to customers."},{"startTime":2553.525,"endTime":2557.292,"body":"Artificially separated from talking"},{"startTime":2553.525,"endTime":2557.292,"body":"to customers or intentionally so Yeah."},{"startTime":2557.292,"endTime":2558.117,"body":"Intentionally so, Right?"},{"startTime":2558.242,"endTime":2558.317,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2558.671,"endTime":2561.188,"body":"and, now we get into the, now we"},{"startTime":2558.671,"endTime":2561.188,"body":"get into the question of like,"},{"startTime":2561.513,"endTime":2564.263,"body":"well, can you overcome that"},{"startTime":2561.513,"endTime":2564.263,"body":"at your current organization?"},{"startTime":2564.263,"endTime":2566.78,"body":"Like, maybe you can, maybe you"},{"startTime":2564.263,"endTime":2566.78,"body":"really like where you work?"},{"startTime":2566.805,"endTime":2568.93,"body":"I don't think I've ever, like in"},{"startTime":2566.805,"endTime":2568.93,"body":"the almost a hundred episodes in"},{"startTime":2568.93,"endTime":2571.53,"body":"the podcast, I don't think I've ever"},{"startTime":2568.93,"endTime":2571.53,"body":"had a story of like this, that at X"},{"startTime":2571.53,"endTime":2573.83,"body":"and then it did Z and then I changed"},{"startTime":2571.53,"endTime":2573.83,"body":"the culture in my organization."},{"startTime":2573.88,"endTime":2574.005,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2574.421,"endTime":2577.213,"body":"from top to bottom and they said,"},{"startTime":2574.421,"endTime":2577.213,"body":"Yes, we are gonna completely, I don't"},{"startTime":2577.213,"endTime":2578.863,"body":"think we've yet had a story like that."},{"startTime":2579.013,"endTime":2579.213,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2579.63,"endTime":2583.08,"body":"So, you know, I would say like, open"},{"startTime":2579.63,"endTime":2583.08,"body":"your mind, be open to learning, be"},{"startTime":2583.08,"endTime":2584.88,"body":"open to see what's out there, and, and."},{"startTime":2585.296,"endTime":2587.371,"body":"When you're looking for that leap,"},{"startTime":2585.296,"endTime":2587.371,"body":"cuz it's not, you're right, it's not,"},{"startTime":2587.371,"endTime":2590.996,"body":"it's not a step, step, step, ladder"},{"startTime":2587.371,"endTime":2590.996,"body":"progression, stair step progression."},{"startTime":2590.996,"endTime":2595.288,"body":"It's not, it is a leap to say, Hey, I"},{"startTime":2590.996,"endTime":2595.288,"body":"need to get out of the tactical and jump"},{"startTime":2595.292,"endTime":2597.988,"body":"into being involved in the strategic"},{"startTime":2595.292,"endTime":2597.988,"body":"and operational across the organization."},{"startTime":2598.163,"endTime":2598.938,"body":"I'm glad you brought this up."},{"startTime":2598.938,"endTime":2602.063,"body":"Cause this is a super interesting topic"},{"startTime":2598.938,"endTime":2602.063,"body":"that is, could be a whole nother podcast."},{"startTime":2602.48,"endTime":2606.721,"body":"When I say it's a leap, you're actively"},{"startTime":2602.48,"endTime":2606.721,"body":"looking to leap out of the tactical."},{"startTime":2606.821,"endTime":2606.896,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2607.296,"endTime":2611.221,"body":"and leap up to where your VPs and"},{"startTime":2607.296,"endTime":2611.221,"body":"your, maybe your directors, if you're"},{"startTime":2611.221,"endTime":2614.721,"body":"a larger organization, your directors,"},{"startTime":2611.221,"endTime":2614.721,"body":"you know, coming up with vision or,"},{"startTime":2614.721,"endTime":2616.013,"body":"or pitching a new, a new product."},{"startTime":2616.038,"endTime":2618.713,"body":"Hey, look, the example I used before"},{"startTime":2616.038,"endTime":2618.713,"body":"where, hey, we need to divide, these"},{"startTime":2618.713,"endTime":2621.013,"body":"set of features, they're really, you"},{"startTime":2618.713,"endTime":2621.013,"body":"know, I'm seeing from the metrics."},{"startTime":2621.013,"endTime":2623.963,"body":"They're different users, they're"},{"startTime":2621.013,"endTime":2623.963,"body":"different use cases, you know, whatever."},{"startTime":2623.963,"endTime":2625.213,"body":"Maybe there are different"},{"startTime":2623.963,"endTime":2625.213,"body":"databases on the back end."},{"startTime":2625.213,"endTime":2626.713,"body":"Maybe it's easy to draw a dividing line."},{"startTime":2627.13,"endTime":2630.688,"body":"you are making the case to say, we"},{"startTime":2627.13,"endTime":2630.688,"body":"should offer a new product line."},{"startTime":2630.713,"endTime":2632.538,"body":"We should rebrand this and"},{"startTime":2630.713,"endTime":2632.538,"body":"offer a new product line."},{"startTime":2632.588,"endTime":2633.938,"body":"These new features, we"},{"startTime":2632.588,"endTime":2633.938,"body":"price it differently."},{"startTime":2633.98,"endTime":2637.58,"body":"That strategy should come from the people"},{"startTime":2633.98,"endTime":2637.58,"body":"who know the product the best, and those"},{"startTime":2637.58,"endTime":2641.155,"body":"people are the product managers for that"},{"startTime":2637.58,"endTime":2641.155,"body":"product, I would hope  or should be."},{"startTime":2641.455,"endTime":2641.505,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2641.505,"endTime":2642.38,"body":"Or should be so."},{"startTime":2642.421,"endTime":2645.338,"body":"And there's no book to tell you how"},{"startTime":2642.421,"endTime":2645.338,"body":"to learn that there's, And the only,"},{"startTime":2645.338,"endTime":2649.438,"body":"no, the only way that you can learn"},{"startTime":2645.338,"endTime":2649.438,"body":"that in regards to market strategy,"},{"startTime":2649.442,"endTime":2653.413,"body":"pricing, all of that is really"},{"startTime":2649.442,"endTime":2653.413,"body":"time on the job to do it right?"},{"startTime":2653.413,"endTime":2653.638,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2653.638,"endTime":2656.271,"body":"You've gotta do it and you've"},{"startTime":2653.638,"endTime":2656.271,"body":"gotta be with people hopefully"},{"startTime":2656.438,"endTime":2657.438,"body":"who know how to do it."},{"startTime":2657.438,"endTime":2657.738,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2657.738,"endTime":2662.43,"body":"You have some mentor or you have somebody"},{"startTime":2657.738,"endTime":2662.43,"body":"who's, Or just, or just trying and failing"},{"startTime":2662.43,"endTime":2666.046,"body":"and, and, and hopefully you've got a"},{"startTime":2662.43,"endTime":2666.046,"body":"company that's, But, but mentoring would"},{"startTime":2666.046,"endTime":2667.521,"body":"be the, be the, be the better option."},{"startTime":2667.546,"endTime":2667.746,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2667.788,"endTime":2669.513,"body":"You labeled it as mentoring."},{"startTime":2669.93,"endTime":2672.255,"body":"I'm labeling it as sponsorship."},{"startTime":2672.663,"endTime":2675.288,"body":"Sponsorship and mentoring could"},{"startTime":2672.663,"endTime":2675.288,"body":"be the same thing, but they"},{"startTime":2675.288,"endTime":2676.313,"body":"could be completely different."},{"startTime":2676.355,"endTime":2678.98,"body":"This is a lot of times they hear like,"},{"startTime":2676.355,"endTime":2678.98,"body":"Well, we have somebody who's sponsoring."},{"startTime":2679.33,"endTime":2680.58,"body":"Agile in leadership."},{"startTime":2680.58,"endTime":2682.28,"body":"So one person in leadership, right?"},{"startTime":2682.555,"endTime":2683.805,"body":"When that person goes"},{"startTime":2682.555,"endTime":2683.805,"body":"away, Agile goes away."},{"startTime":2683.805,"endTime":2683.98,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2684.255,"endTime":2686.738,"body":"The the point is  the person"},{"startTime":2684.255,"endTime":2686.738,"body":"who's sponsoring, like, Hey,"},{"startTime":2686.913,"endTime":2688.288,"body":"we need to be product led."},{"startTime":2688.463,"endTime":2690.263,"body":"Like, we're getting killed, we're"},{"startTime":2688.463,"endTime":2690.263,"body":"getting creamed in our market that"},{"startTime":2690.267,"endTime":2693.863,"body":"we're dominating and we've, you know,"},{"startTime":2690.267,"endTime":2693.863,"body":"we went from 90% market down to 50%"},{"startTime":2693.863,"endTime":2696.038,"body":"market, and next year we're projecting"},{"startTime":2693.863,"endTime":2696.038,"body":"going down to 30% market, whatever."},{"startTime":2696.163,"endTime":2699.138,"body":"And you've got somebody on your executive"},{"startTime":2696.163,"endTime":2699.138,"body":"team going, We need product people."},{"startTime":2699.142,"endTime":2699.346,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2699.413,"endTime":2702.163,"body":", because all of our competitors"},{"startTime":2699.413,"endTime":2702.163,"body":"are product led and it's"},{"startTime":2702.163,"endTime":2703.138,"body":"easier to sign up or whatever."},{"startTime":2703.138,"endTime":2703.888,"body":"And I see the decline."},{"startTime":2703.888,"endTime":2704.413,"body":"I see where we're going."},{"startTime":2704.513,"endTime":2705.288,"body":"You have somebody in the."},{"startTime":2705.7,"endTime":2706.85,"body":"Who's sponsoring that change."},{"startTime":2706.85,"endTime":2707.575,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2707.58,"endTime":2710.025,"body":"So I think the difference in"},{"startTime":2707.58,"endTime":2710.025,"body":"my mind between sponsorship and"},{"startTime":2710.025,"endTime":2711.775,"body":"mentorship is accountability."},{"startTime":2711.95,"endTime":2714.325,"body":"So if they're sponsoring you, they"},{"startTime":2711.95,"endTime":2714.325,"body":"hold some level of accountability,"},{"startTime":2714.325,"endTime":2715.5,"body":"Mentorship, not so much."},{"startTime":2715.917,"endTime":2716.242,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2716.246,"endTime":2717.309,"body":"Maybe, maybe."},{"startTime":2717.725,"endTime":2718.425,"body":"I'd have to think about that."},{"startTime":2718.425,"endTime":2720.025,"body":"Cuz that's a, that's a different podcast."},{"startTime":2720.442,"endTime":2721.942,"body":"I don't know how deep I"},{"startTime":2720.442,"endTime":2721.942,"body":"want to go into that one."},{"startTime":2721.992,"endTime":2723.042,"body":"I mean, it's an interesting one."},{"startTime":2723.242,"endTime":2725.184,"body":"Um, I, I, I read a book on that recently."},{"startTime":2725.184,"endTime":2725.584,"body":"I'll tell you when."},{"startTime":2725.584,"endTime":2726.534,"body":"The podcast, I really haven't read that."},{"startTime":2726.534,"endTime":2728.284,"body":"That was, that was totally"},{"startTime":2726.534,"endTime":2728.284,"body":"outta Stormy's brain."},{"startTime":2728.409,"endTime":2730.084,"body":"You know, I, I I'm a freaking genius."},{"startTime":2730.109,"endTime":2730.509,"body":"No, no, no."},{"startTime":2730.509,"endTime":2731.0,"body":"Should have wrote the book."},{"startTime":2731.259,"endTime":2731.509,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2731.559,"endTime":2731.709,"body":"Yeah"}]}