{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.008,"endTime":2.87,"body":"Hey, you're working in Scrum,  and,"},{"startTime":0.008,"endTime":2.87,"body":"for whatever reason, for whatever,"},{"startTime":2.87,"endTime":6.28,"body":"chance of fate your company or"},{"startTime":2.87,"endTime":6.28,"body":"team does not have a scrum master."},{"startTime":6.33,"endTime":10.276,"body":"And also, a star next to the description"},{"startTime":6.33,"endTime":10.276,"body":"of this podcast that, let's be honest,"},{"startTime":10.326,"endTime":11.851,"body":"nobody reads a description of podcast."},{"startTime":11.984,"endTime":14.409,"body":"You also don't have an agile coach"},{"startTime":11.984,"endTime":14.409,"body":"at the organization that kind"},{"startTime":14.409,"endTime":16.784,"body":"of pops in and pops off of your"},{"startTime":14.409,"endTime":16.784,"body":"teams to kind of help you along."},{"startTime":16.788,"endTime":20.176,"body":"So we're gonna assume that"},{"startTime":16.788,"endTime":20.176,"body":"your organization has no agile"},{"startTime":20.176,"endTime":21.651,"body":"coaches and no scrum masters."},{"startTime":21.655,"endTime":22.026,"body":". . Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":22.097,"endTime":22.935,"body":"Life without a scrum master"},{"startTime":23.079,"endTime":26.704,"body":"life without a scrum master is a bit"},{"startTime":23.079,"endTime":26.704,"body":"like having a train running on tracks"},{"startTime":26.729,"endTime":30.679,"body":"without a, an engineer at the top of"},{"startTime":26.729,"endTime":30.679,"body":"the train making sure that they're"},{"startTime":30.679,"endTime":32.379,"body":"looking out and taking action, et cetera."},{"startTime":32.379,"endTime":32.629,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":32.629,"endTime":34.354,"body":"There's automated trains,"},{"startTime":32.629,"endTime":34.354,"body":"I get all that right."},{"startTime":34.579,"endTime":36.729,"body":"Short duration at the"},{"startTime":34.579,"endTime":36.729,"body":"airport, things like that."},{"startTime":36.733,"endTime":40.529,"body":"Fixed tracks with no uncertainty,"},{"startTime":36.733,"endTime":40.529,"body":"like nothing's gonna fall on those"},{"startTime":40.533,"endTime":42.229,"body":"tracks, no trees or anything like that."},{"startTime":42.229,"endTime":45.329,"body":"But if you're going on Amtrak from"},{"startTime":42.229,"endTime":45.329,"body":"Philadelphia to Miami and you're"},{"startTime":45.329,"endTime":48.554,"body":"on a train with no, no engineer"},{"startTime":45.329,"endTime":48.554,"body":"on the train, that's kind of like"},{"startTime":48.554,"endTime":49.454,"body":"what we're talking about here."},{"startTime":49.654,"endTime":49.954,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":50.379,"endTime":51.979,"body":"There's very little chance"},{"startTime":50.379,"endTime":51.979,"body":"the train's gonna come off."},{"startTime":51.983,"endTime":52.104,"body":"Its."},{"startTime":53.283,"endTime":53.983,"body":"By itself."},{"startTime":54.008,"endTime":56.233,"body":"Like all things being equal,"},{"startTime":54.008,"endTime":56.233,"body":"but all things aren't equal."},{"startTime":56.258,"endTime":57.208,"body":"Weather changes."},{"startTime":57.433,"endTime":58.983,"body":"People jump the tracks all the time."},{"startTime":58.983,"endTime":60.533,"body":"There's lunatic on these things."},{"startTime":60.558,"endTime":63.508,"body":"there's all these things that"},{"startTime":60.558,"endTime":63.508,"body":"happen where you need somebody who's"},{"startTime":63.508,"endTime":66.708,"body":"looking out and making sure that"},{"startTime":63.508,"endTime":66.708,"body":"they are ensuring the safety of"},{"startTime":66.708,"endTime":68.083,"body":"all the passengers on that train."},{"startTime":68.483,"endTime":71.408,"body":"So not having a scrum master, you"},{"startTime":68.483,"endTime":71.408,"body":"really are taking that chance."},{"startTime":71.433,"endTime":72.008,"body":", that's one thing."},{"startTime":72.008,"endTime":75.008,"body":"The other thing I, the other metaphor"},{"startTime":72.008,"endTime":75.008,"body":"I have, I think this might be actually"},{"startTime":75.008,"endTime":78.85,"body":"a better one, I don't know is to not"},{"startTime":75.008,"endTime":78.85,"body":"have a conductor in an orchestra."},{"startTime":79.125,"endTime":82.05,"body":"Everyone can play their own"},{"startTime":79.125,"endTime":82.05,"body":"instrument absolutely proficiently."},{"startTime":82.375,"endTime":82.65,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":82.65,"endTime":83.65,"body":"And you're among peers."},{"startTime":83.65,"endTime":85.0,"body":"So the brass section has."},{"startTime":85.212,"endTime":87.887,"body":"20 people, they can all play"},{"startTime":85.212,"endTime":87.887,"body":"their instrument beautifully,"},{"startTime":88.337,"endTime":91.587,"body":"but can they coordinate with the"},{"startTime":88.337,"endTime":91.587,"body":"wind section or the percussion?"},{"startTime":91.912,"endTime":92.262,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":92.596,"endTime":94.967,"body":"what does it sound like when everybody's"},{"startTime":92.596,"endTime":94.967,"body":"playing their own instrument?"},{"startTime":94.967,"endTime":95.992,"body":"Absolutely, perfectly."},{"startTime":95.992,"endTime":97.667,"body":"But they're not coordinating"},{"startTime":95.992,"endTime":97.667,"body":"with one another."},{"startTime":98.0,"endTime":100.275,"body":"With regard to timing or"},{"startTime":98.0,"endTime":100.275,"body":"anything else for that matter."},{"startTime":100.525,"endTime":102.9,"body":"They come in when they want, they"},{"startTime":100.525,"endTime":102.9,"body":"leave when they want, they start,"},{"startTime":102.925,"endTime":103.95,"body":"they stop whenever they want."},{"startTime":104.2,"endTime":104.975,"body":"There's no conductor there."},{"startTime":105.375,"endTime":107.55,"body":"So not having a scrum"},{"startTime":105.375,"endTime":107.55,"body":"master is akin to that."},{"startTime":107.992,"endTime":110.567,"body":"how you end up there is probably"},{"startTime":107.992,"endTime":110.567,"body":"outside the scope of this podcast."},{"startTime":110.717,"endTime":113.117,"body":"Anything can happen from, like"},{"startTime":110.717,"endTime":113.117,"body":"you said, you're so poor, you"},{"startTime":113.121,"endTime":114.042,"body":"don't see the value in it."},{"startTime":114.217,"endTime":116.683,"body":"Your scrum master just won the"},{"startTime":114.217,"endTime":116.683,"body":"the mega millions or whatever."},{"startTime":116.942,"endTime":117.342,"body":"I didn't even think."},{"startTime":117.667,"endTime":118.567,"body":"Yeah, I didn't even think about that."},{"startTime":118.567,"endTime":120.492,"body":"That should be on here is uh, why"},{"startTime":118.567,"endTime":120.492,"body":"you don't have a scrum master."},{"startTime":120.492,"endTime":121.392,"body":"But I think you're right like that."},{"startTime":121.575,"endTime":123.967,"body":"If, if that was on here that"},{"startTime":121.575,"endTime":123.967,"body":"would be the entire podcast."},{"startTime":123.967,"endTime":125.942,"body":"That would be reasons that"},{"startTime":123.967,"endTime":125.942,"body":"you don't have  . 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about"},{"startTime":139.725,"endTime":142.322,"body":"this, this podcast in terms of"},{"startTime":142.322,"endTime":143.272,"body":"the value of a scrum master."},{"startTime":143.272,"endTime":144.847,"body":"What happens when there's"},{"startTime":143.272,"endTime":144.847,"body":"no scrum Master me?"},{"startTime":144.847,"endTime":146.097,"body":"We can explore that for a few minutes."},{"startTime":146.097,"endTime":146.822,"body":"I like the analogy."},{"startTime":146.822,"endTime":147.647,"body":"It works well."},{"startTime":148.539,"endTime":152.539,"body":", but I will challenge it a little bit in"},{"startTime":148.539,"endTime":152.539,"body":"saying that, the assumption there is that"},{"startTime":152.543,"endTime":155.089,"body":"you have, for instance, on the train, a"},{"startTime":152.543,"endTime":155.089,"body":"whole bunch of personnel that actually"},{"startTime":155.093,"endTime":157.639,"body":"know how to drive the train, even if"},{"startTime":155.093,"endTime":157.639,"body":"they don't happen to have a lookout."},{"startTime":157.839,"endTime":160.064,"body":"Or you have an orchestra who,"},{"startTime":157.839,"endTime":160.064,"body":"who knows how to play their,"},{"startTime":160.114,"endTime":161.48,"body":"play their instruments, right."},{"startTime":161.714,"endTime":163.147,"body":"like, yeah, we're assuming that, right."},{"startTime":163.38,"endTime":163.514,"body":"Assuming."},{"startTime":164.089,"endTime":168.064,"body":"So, or, or at least has some concept of"},{"startTime":164.089,"endTime":168.064,"body":"an orchestra or how to play together."},{"startTime":168.064,"endTime":171.889,"body":"Or maybe they've done this before in"},{"startTime":168.064,"endTime":171.889,"body":"some manner, maybe in a smaller group"},{"startTime":171.889,"endTime":175.309,"body":"I think the point I'm trying to"},{"startTime":171.889,"endTime":175.309,"body":"make is  for the inexperienced, when"},{"startTime":175.309,"endTime":179.055,"body":"we kind of using this as a, a as a"},{"startTime":175.309,"endTime":179.055,"body":"metaphor for, for product, for the"},{"startTime":179.155,"endTime":184.73,"body":"team that doesn't know how to work"},{"startTime":179.155,"endTime":184.73,"body":"together, like at all, they are siloed."},{"startTime":184.755,"endTime":190.218,"body":"They are that project task test"},{"startTime":184.755,"endTime":190.218,"body":"assigning, test assigning, just give"},{"startTime":190.218,"endTime":191.593,"body":"it to me, order, take order takers."},{"startTime":191.593,"endTime":192.168,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":192.368,"endTime":195.868,"body":"So they've never, even though they're a"},{"startTime":192.368,"endTime":195.868,"body":"potentially a team and they be working"},{"startTime":195.872,"endTime":199.793,"body":"on a product, But they wouldn't know,"},{"startTime":195.872,"endTime":199.793,"body":"in your analogy, how to run the train."},{"startTime":199.793,"endTime":199.893,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":200.093,"endTime":202.618,"body":"even if, even if somebody were looking"},{"startTime":200.093,"endTime":202.618,"body":"out and making sure that there wasn't"},{"startTime":202.618,"endTime":205.768,"body":"danger ahead, or even if someone"},{"startTime":202.618,"endTime":205.768,"body":"were up there swinging the batons"},{"startTime":205.772,"endTime":209.043,"body":"to make sure they wouldn't even"},{"startTime":205.772,"endTime":209.043,"body":"know where to start without that."},{"startTime":209.043,"endTime":209.393,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":209.393,"endTime":209.443,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":209.493,"endTime":210.768,"body":"So even, even to sound bad."},{"startTime":210.801,"endTime":214.176,"body":"Let's start with the low hanging"},{"startTime":210.801,"endTime":214.176,"body":"fruit of the, the, the, the"},{"startTime":214.18,"endTime":216.334,"body":"things that are explored over"},{"startTime":214.18,"endTime":216.334,"body":"the internet many, many times."},{"startTime":216.334,"endTime":219.259,"body":"Like, let's start with that and"},{"startTime":216.334,"endTime":219.259,"body":"then we'll segue past the half hour"},{"startTime":219.259,"endTime":220.459,"body":"mark where nobody listens anymore."},{"startTime":220.501,"endTime":224.351,"body":"Let's start with the team development"},{"startTime":220.501,"endTime":224.351,"body":"aspect of a Scrum Master's job and"},{"startTime":224.351,"endTime":225.501,"body":"what happens when they're not there."},{"startTime":225.801,"endTime":229.293,"body":"You have a team and maybe they,"},{"startTime":225.801,"endTime":229.293,"body":"they've hired you a, a product"},{"startTime":229.297,"endTime":230.093,"body":"manager for the first time."},{"startTime":230.118,"endTime":234.051,"body":"We gotta spin up a new team and that team"},{"startTime":230.118,"endTime":234.051,"body":"is going to use X process and the team's"},{"startTime":234.051,"endTime":236.734,"body":"gonna figure out this process, or who"},{"startTime":234.051,"endTime":236.734,"body":"needs to be on the team, who shouldn't"},{"startTime":236.739,"endTime":239.809,"body":"be on the team, who's working, who's not"},{"startTime":236.739,"endTime":239.809,"body":"working, all those kind of activities."},{"startTime":240.122,"endTime":243.697,"body":"I will lay my cards on the table"},{"startTime":240.122,"endTime":243.697,"body":"real early in this podcast to say"},{"startTime":244.022,"endTime":247.18,"body":"I'm super concerned about handing"},{"startTime":244.022,"endTime":247.18,"body":"all, like saying, oh, we don't have"},{"startTime":247.184,"endTime":250.355,"body":"a scrum master, and I, the product"},{"startTime":247.184,"endTime":250.355,"body":"manager, I'm too busy for that."},{"startTime":250.455,"endTime":253.505,"body":"I'm gonna hand all that stuff"},{"startTime":250.455,"endTime":253.505,"body":"over to the engineering department"},{"startTime":253.555,"endTime":256.405,"body":"or the technical leader, the"},{"startTime":253.555,"endTime":256.405,"body":"architect, the dba or somebody."},{"startTime":257.755,"endTime":259.48,"body":"Or you're just punting the"},{"startTime":257.755,"endTime":259.48,"body":"problem down the line though."},{"startTime":259.68,"endTime":261.63,"body":"Not only am I punting the problem"},{"startTime":259.68,"endTime":261.63,"body":"down the line, but I'm punting the"},{"startTime":261.63,"endTime":265.68,"body":"problem potentially to somebody who"},{"startTime":261.63,"endTime":265.68,"body":"has no experience in that arena."},{"startTime":266.28,"endTime":266.43,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":266.705,"endTime":269.947,"body":"So I just triggered a whole bunch of"},{"startTime":266.705,"endTime":269.947,"body":"people on the internet that I won't name."},{"startTime":270.022,"endTime":270.247,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":270.48,"endTime":270.93,"body":"I understand."},{"startTime":270.934,"endTime":271.655,"body":"I understand what you're saying."},{"startTime":271.914,"endTime":276.18,"body":"I think that's somewhat Sorry, overlapping"},{"startTime":271.914,"endTime":276.18,"body":"what I, what I say and what you were"},{"startTime":276.18,"endTime":281.08,"body":"saying, assuming people know the role"},{"startTime":276.18,"endTime":281.08,"body":"and what to do even, but their absence is"},{"startTime":281.08,"endTime":283.105,"body":"conspicuous in its presence, so to speak."},{"startTime":283.105,"endTime":283.405,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":283.63,"endTime":285.205,"body":"Wait, that was quite profound."},{"startTime":285.43,"endTime":286.355,"body":"We miss them, right?"},{"startTime":286.53,"endTime":287.28,"body":"Because they're not there."},{"startTime":287.28,"endTime":288.805,"body":"But if they were there, if they"},{"startTime":287.28,"endTime":288.805,"body":"didn't know what they were doing,"},{"startTime":289.105,"endTime":290.23,"body":"then they may as well not be there."},{"startTime":290.555,"endTime":294.455,"body":"So a lot of times what I'm seeing though"},{"startTime":290.555,"endTime":294.455,"body":"here is people trying to capitalize"},{"startTime":294.455,"endTime":296.855,"body":"these roles from a budgetary perspective."},{"startTime":296.855,"endTime":298.68,"body":"And developers, you can capitalize, right?"},{"startTime":298.684,"endTime":298.73,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":298.73,"endTime":298.955,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":299.005,"endTime":300.605,"body":"Qa, you can do the same thing, right?"},{"startTime":300.78,"endTime":301.78,"body":"But it comes to scrum Masters."},{"startTime":303.005,"endTime":304.105,"body":"Do we really have to have one?"},{"startTime":304.105,"endTime":306.13,"body":"And maybe we just have"},{"startTime":304.105,"endTime":306.13,"body":"one across our 10 teams."},{"startTime":306.13,"endTime":306.88,"body":"That's enough, right?"},{"startTime":306.897,"endTime":307.264,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":307.38,"endTime":310.78,"body":", because outside the nine to nine 30"},{"startTime":307.38,"endTime":310.78,"body":"standup, what they really do, Right."},{"startTime":310.822,"endTime":314.172,"body":"I see where you're going, but I'm trying"},{"startTime":310.822,"endTime":314.172,"body":"to cut you off for the, I'm trying to, I'm"},{"startTime":314.48,"endTime":315.497,"body":"trying to corral you back onto the road."},{"startTime":315.497,"endTime":317.797,"body":"Like, I'm trying to stay away from the"},{"startTime":315.497,"endTime":317.797,"body":"reasons why companies, like most of the"},{"startTime":317.797,"endTime":320.172,"body":"reasons why companies choose not to have"},{"startTime":317.797,"endTime":320.172,"body":"a scrum master, I consider illegitimate."},{"startTime":320.214,"endTime":326.422,"body":"Because that logic of, oh, I don't"},{"startTime":320.214,"endTime":326.422,"body":"know if I can afford a scrum master."},{"startTime":326.884,"endTime":328.859,"body":"I don't really know what they do all day."},{"startTime":328.909,"endTime":332.134,"body":"I could say the same thing about an"},{"startTime":328.909,"endTime":332.134,"body":"architect, and in fact, I could say the"},{"startTime":332.134,"endTime":333.934,"body":"same thing about a director of whatever."},{"startTime":333.959,"endTime":334.559,"body":"Fill in the blank."},{"startTime":335.059,"endTime":337.301,"body":"Why don't the employees in the"},{"startTime":335.059,"endTime":337.301,"body":"company, okay, there's a certain"},{"startTime":337.301,"endTime":338.076,"body":"level of being ridiculous."},{"startTime":338.076,"endTime":343.526,"body":"I will freely admit right now, however,"},{"startTime":338.076,"endTime":343.526,"body":"in a 10 person startup, okay, they"},{"startTime":343.526,"endTime":344.776,"body":"don't have anyone in those positions."},{"startTime":344.951,"endTime":346.451,"body":"Someone's gotta figure it out, figure."},{"startTime":347.526,"endTime":350.276,"body":"So those are the people when we're"},{"startTime":347.526,"endTime":350.276,"body":"talking about like, well, who is in"},{"startTime":350.276,"endTime":352.726,"body":"charge of the development of the teams"},{"startTime":350.276,"endTime":352.726,"body":"and who is in charge of whatever."},{"startTime":352.976,"endTime":355.551,"body":"I can give small cut like startups,"},{"startTime":352.976,"endTime":355.551,"body":"scrappy little 10 person startups."},{"startTime":355.626,"endTime":359.351,"body":"I can give them a pass in this"},{"startTime":355.626,"endTime":359.351,"body":"category because that is the CEO's job."},{"startTime":360.051,"endTime":361.851,"body":"The CEO's job is everything"},{"startTime":360.051,"endTime":361.851,"body":"we're talking about now."},{"startTime":362.126,"endTime":365.901,"body":"And if we're gonna wrap what we're talking"},{"startTime":362.126,"endTime":365.901,"body":"about inside of a banner, of, of, of"},{"startTime":365.901,"endTime":369.576,"body":"something like, like one single word to"},{"startTime":365.901,"endTime":369.576,"body":"keep going to on this podcast that I'm"},{"startTime":369.58,"endTime":373.559,"body":"gonna beat up until people are sick of"},{"startTime":369.58,"endTime":373.559,"body":"hearing it from me is gonna be leadership."},{"startTime":373.884,"endTime":374.134,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":374.134,"endTime":376.959,"body":"Because a CEO is both management"},{"startTime":374.134,"endTime":376.959,"body":"and leadership wrapped"},{"startTime":376.959,"endTime":377.668,"body":"into one position, right?"},{"startTime":377.668,"endTime":378.609,"body":"They do a ton of stuff."},{"startTime":378.934,"endTime":381.584,"body":"In a small company, they'll probably"},{"startTime":378.934,"endTime":381.584,"body":"be operations cuz they probably won't"},{"startTime":381.584,"endTime":383.634,"body":"have a coo o in this company that size."},{"startTime":383.984,"endTime":385.184,"body":"They'll do business development."},{"startTime":385.184,"endTime":387.434,"body":"They'll probably be trying to"},{"startTime":385.184,"endTime":387.434,"body":"create a market and sell to that"},{"startTime":387.434,"endTime":388.359,"body":"market both at the same time."},{"startTime":388.409,"endTime":388.584,"body":"Business."},{"startTime":388.609,"endTime":388.684,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":389.051,"endTime":390.284,"body":", so it's account management and sales."},{"startTime":390.459,"endTime":390.559,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":390.764,"endTime":394.968,"body":"business development, they'll probably"},{"startTime":390.764,"endTime":394.968,"body":"be in some level of the development."},{"startTime":395.343,"endTime":395.568,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":395.593,"endTime":398.843,"body":"Some probably at a strategic level,"},{"startTime":395.593,"endTime":398.843,"body":"maybe, maybe a little bit in operations,"},{"startTime":398.843,"endTime":403.526,"body":"somewhere staggered between the two of"},{"startTime":398.843,"endTime":403.526,"body":"them, but the, the CEO is doing a lot"},{"startTime":403.526,"endTime":407.176,"body":"of this because in order to launch a"},{"startTime":403.526,"endTime":407.176,"body":"company, you probably, probably, it could"},{"startTime":407.176,"endTime":408.551,"body":"be, I'm willing to be wrong on this."},{"startTime":409.097,"endTime":412.347,"body":"you need a strong leader,"},{"startTime":409.097,"endTime":412.347,"body":"someone with leadership."},{"startTime":412.372,"endTime":415.247,"body":"And if it's not the ceo, they"},{"startTime":412.372,"endTime":415.247,"body":"probably have somebody with them."},{"startTime":415.447,"endTime":415.547,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":415.747,"endTime":420.422,"body":"at, at the beginning, who does have that"},{"startTime":415.747,"endTime":420.422,"body":"leadership ability and is launching these"},{"startTime":420.422,"endTime":422.989,"body":"things,  they're making sure everyone's"},{"startTime":420.422,"endTime":422.989,"body":"happy, they're making sure the team is"},{"startTime":422.989,"endTime":426.589,"body":"forming, they're making sure we we're"},{"startTime":422.989,"endTime":426.589,"body":"having a productive disagreements and"},{"startTime":426.589,"endTime":427.664,"body":"that we're getting to the next level."},{"startTime":427.764,"endTime":431.539,"body":"Okay, now take us from that 10 person"},{"startTime":427.764,"endTime":431.539,"body":"company, scale us up to 300 people."},{"startTime":431.539,"endTime":432.414,"body":"Now who's doing those jobs?"},{"startTime":432.739,"endTime":433.014,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":433.389,"endTime":436.739,"body":"That, that, that's, that's what I wanna,"},{"startTime":433.389,"endTime":436.739,"body":"I wanna zip us straight to, because anyone"},{"startTime":436.739,"endTime":439.889,"body":"who, anyone's watching this, who's a scrum"},{"startTime":436.739,"endTime":439.889,"body":"master, who's like, oh, I don't understand"},{"startTime":439.889,"endTime":442.914,"body":"these changes in my company, and I don't"},{"startTime":439.889,"endTime":442.914,"body":"understand the oh, they say that we're"},{"startTime":442.914,"endTime":445.939,"body":"going through a recession or whatever,"},{"startTime":442.914,"endTime":445.939,"body":"and I went from having two teams, having"},{"startTime":445.939,"endTime":450.164,"body":"six teams or whatever, like, yeah,"},{"startTime":445.939,"endTime":450.164,"body":"there's reasons I wanna get, I want to"},{"startTime":450.239,"endTime":453.414,"body":"punch through this, the low hanging fruit"},{"startTime":450.239,"endTime":453.414,"body":"that you can get on any other podcast"},{"startTime":453.614,"endTime":454.872,"body":"and talk about the reasons and then."},{"startTime":455.351,"endTime":456.251,"body":"Back it up with our experience."},{"startTime":456.251,"endTime":457.951,"body":"Cause I, cuz I know I've seen this before."},{"startTime":458.076,"endTime":458.176,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":458.376,"endTime":458.751,"body":"for sure."},{"startTime":458.751,"endTime":459.151,"body":"For sure."},{"startTime":459.151,"endTime":459.301,"body":"And"},{"startTime":459.301,"endTime":462.926,"body":"so let's just go up to that middle"},{"startTime":459.301,"endTime":462.926,"body":"level or mid-size organization."},{"startTime":462.976,"endTime":463.076,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":463.209,"endTime":463.443,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":463.514,"endTime":464.101,"body":"300 people."},{"startTime":464.101,"endTime":464.426,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":464.551,"endTime":465.126,"body":"Well, I'm getting that."},{"startTime":465.13,"endTime":466.851,"body":"We're, we're given startups a pass pass."},{"startTime":466.851,"endTime":468.301,"body":"Anybody in a startup, you gotta pass."},{"startTime":468.501,"endTime":470.801,"body":"I mean, they, they temporarily,"},{"startTime":468.501,"endTime":470.801,"body":"it's temporarily they get a pass."},{"startTime":470.801,"endTime":473.651,"body":"But it's, it's, it's the truest form"},{"startTime":470.801,"endTime":473.651,"body":"of everything we're talking about."},{"startTime":473.651,"endTime":476.209,"body":"It is because the, the person doing"},{"startTime":473.651,"endTime":476.209,"body":"the job, they're forced into doing it."},{"startTime":476.214,"endTime":478.326,"body":"The person doing the job is"},{"startTime":476.214,"endTime":478.326,"body":"doing it part-time and they are"},{"startTime":478.451,"endTime":480.426,"body":"providing leadership to that group."},{"startTime":480.501,"endTime":482.001,"body":"It's not even forced."},{"startTime":482.026,"endTime":484.084,"body":"It's just, it's this"},{"startTime":482.026,"endTime":484.084,"body":"natural emergent process."},{"startTime":484.218,"endTime":486.793,"body":"It's not, it's not even a"},{"startTime":484.218,"endTime":486.793,"body":"role that has to be dictated."},{"startTime":486.793,"endTime":488.343,"body":"It just has to be done."},{"startTime":488.393,"endTime":489.068,"body":"It just happens."},{"startTime":489.168,"endTime":489.268,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":489.268,"endTime":489.593,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":489.768,"endTime":489.943,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":489.943,"endTime":490.743,"body":"It's the need of the hour."},{"startTime":490.743,"endTime":493.818,"body":"But, but you know, even though that"},{"startTime":490.743,"endTime":493.818,"body":"is organic and it emerges that way,"},{"startTime":494.668,"endTime":497.555,"body":"I think those organizations, if they"},{"startTime":494.668,"endTime":497.555,"body":"don't get the basics right, when they"},{"startTime":497.555,"endTime":502.522,"body":"do become a 300 person company their bad"},{"startTime":497.555,"endTime":502.522,"body":"practices are magnified up at that point."},{"startTime":502.572,"endTime":502.705,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":502.705,"endTime":502.939,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":502.943,"endTime":502.997,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":502.997,"endTime":504.022,"body":"So it's pivotal."},{"startTime":504.022,"endTime":507.622,"body":"Now if, cuz now you are, you're no"},{"startTime":504.022,"endTime":507.622,"body":"longer a startup, your CEO doesn't"},{"startTime":507.622,"endTime":510.105,"body":"have his or sleeves rolled up mm-hmm."},{"startTime":510.176,"endTime":512.422,"body":"they're not there every day  on"},{"startTime":510.176,"endTime":512.422,"body":"the cutting edge, so to speak."},{"startTime":512.547,"endTime":512.722,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":512.83,"endTime":516.676,"body":", they're delegating and so if you are"},{"startTime":512.83,"endTime":516.676,"body":"organically growing in an environment"},{"startTime":516.68,"endTime":521.601,"body":"that doesn't have sound agile practices"},{"startTime":516.68,"endTime":521.601,"body":"that you're already acting upon every"},{"startTime":521.601,"endTime":525.201,"body":"day and enacting them, then you are"},{"startTime":521.601,"endTime":525.201,"body":"going to magnify the bad practices."},{"startTime":525.276,"endTime":529.326,"body":"And even when that is recognized,"},{"startTime":525.276,"endTime":529.326,"body":"to fix that is a lot harder than"},{"startTime":529.326,"endTime":530.526,"body":"fixing them when you're small."},{"startTime":530.776,"endTime":532.751,"body":"So you magnify something"},{"startTime":530.776,"endTime":532.751,"body":"that is not terrible."},{"startTime":532.751,"endTime":535.051,"body":"So literally it's like taking a"},{"startTime":532.751,"endTime":535.051,"body":"magnifying glass or something bad."},{"startTime":535.297,"endTime":538.572,"body":"but let's just fast forward to a"},{"startTime":535.297,"endTime":538.572,"body":"300 person kind of organization."},{"startTime":538.572,"endTime":542.368,"body":"So now what happens is you have"},{"startTime":538.572,"endTime":542.368,"body":"middle managers at, even at"},{"startTime":542.368,"endTime":543.651,"body":"that size of a company mm-hmm."},{"startTime":543.718,"endTime":546.268,"body":", you have people at the ceo, the"},{"startTime":543.718,"endTime":546.268,"body":"senior leadership, let's just say."},{"startTime":546.593,"endTime":546.843,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":546.893,"endTime":552.193,"body":"CXOs are interesting to kind of"},{"startTime":546.893,"endTime":552.193,"body":"operationalize and get things done."},{"startTime":552.643,"endTime":554.568,"body":"Then who are those people at that level?"},{"startTime":554.593,"endTime":554.668,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":554.868,"endTime":557.468,"body":", are they net new people"},{"startTime":554.868,"endTime":557.468,"body":"that have been recruited in?"},{"startTime":557.468,"endTime":559.293,"body":"Are they friends of the ceo?"},{"startTime":559.343,"endTime":559.418,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":559.651,"endTime":563.397,"body":"Are they promoted up from when they"},{"startTime":559.651,"endTime":563.397,"body":"were a small entrepreneurial outfit?"},{"startTime":563.922,"endTime":564.497,"body":"Doesn't matter."},{"startTime":564.73,"endTime":568.222,"body":"The the point really being, if they"},{"startTime":564.73,"endTime":568.222,"body":"don't see the value of somebody who can"},{"startTime":568.522,"endTime":570.822,"body":"orchestrate a team to success, right?"},{"startTime":571.097,"endTime":574.072,"body":"Then you're gonna have this issue,"},{"startTime":571.097,"endTime":574.072,"body":"this void in their understanding of"},{"startTime":574.505,"endTime":576.23,"body":"is there a need for a scrum master?"},{"startTime":576.234,"endTime":577.18,"body":"What do they do anyway?"},{"startTime":577.18,"endTime":578.33,"body":"You know, those questions come up."},{"startTime":578.993,"endTime":580.518,"body":"The flip side of that is true too."},{"startTime":580.618,"endTime":584.143,"body":"Any scrum master worth his or her salt"},{"startTime":580.618,"endTime":584.143,"body":"should understand why they're there."},{"startTime":584.518,"endTime":584.793,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":584.793,"endTime":588.068,"body":"And they should understand they're"},{"startTime":584.793,"endTime":588.068,"body":"not only serving the team, this"},{"startTime":588.068,"endTime":591.268,"body":"is, I think obviously in the latest"},{"startTime":588.068,"endTime":591.268,"body":"iteration of the scrum guide they're"},{"startTime":591.268,"endTime":592.643,"body":"serving the organization too."},{"startTime":592.693,"endTime":595.593,"body":"What does that look like day to day"},{"startTime":592.693,"endTime":595.593,"body":"as making sure that the organization"},{"startTime":595.593,"endTime":599.151,"body":"understands in full transparency what"},{"startTime":595.593,"endTime":599.151,"body":"value they're bringing if they don't"},{"startTime":599.151,"endTime":602.551,"body":"do that, then all that is lost and"},{"startTime":599.151,"endTime":602.551,"body":"they could find themselves outta work"},{"startTime":602.555,"endTime":605.751,"body":"because people higher up don't see"},{"startTime":602.555,"endTime":605.751,"body":"what you're doing day in, day out."},{"startTime":605.876,"endTime":606.176,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":606.868,"endTime":609.518,"body":"I think you hit on something here"},{"startTime":606.868,"endTime":609.518,"body":"in regards to team development."},{"startTime":609.518,"endTime":612.168,"body":"When you said something about if they"},{"startTime":609.518,"endTime":612.168,"body":"don't have, if, if they're not built"},{"startTime":612.168,"endTime":616.093,"body":"on good, agile practices from the"},{"startTime":612.168,"endTime":616.093,"body":"beginning, and, and I would say that"},{"startTime":616.455,"endTime":620.905,"body":"they may be actually practicing agile"},{"startTime":616.455,"endTime":620.905,"body":"without knowing they're practicing"},{"startTime":620.905,"endTime":624.605,"body":"agile from a, then, from a scaling"},{"startTime":620.905,"endTime":624.605,"body":"perspective, when that means relinquishing"},{"startTime":624.605,"endTime":629.38,"body":"control to someone else to put,"},{"startTime":624.605,"endTime":629.38,"body":"to do whatever duty that might be."},{"startTime":629.389,"endTime":633.905,"body":"I think that's when that becomes"},{"startTime":629.389,"endTime":633.905,"body":"potentially an issue and, and, and,"},{"startTime":633.909,"endTime":637.676,"body":"and starts to really kind of bloom"},{"startTime":633.909,"endTime":637.676,"body":"and, just become a bigger issue."},{"startTime":637.701,"endTime":643.389,"body":"So, for instance, if I, just to explain"},{"startTime":637.701,"endTime":643.389,"body":"a little bit better, , maybe you have"},{"startTime":643.389,"endTime":646.73,"body":"somebody who has a startup, who has"},{"startTime":643.389,"endTime":646.73,"body":"a great understanding of agile and"},{"startTime":646.73,"endTime":650.476,"body":"or scrum and or XP or whatever it is,"},{"startTime":646.73,"endTime":650.476,"body":"and they start off and they understand"},{"startTime":650.476,"endTime":653.876,"body":"the need of creating a baseline"},{"startTime":650.476,"endTime":653.876,"body":"and understand how that ultimately"},{"startTime":653.876,"endTime":655.201,"body":"is going to go futuristically."},{"startTime":655.201,"endTime":656.551,"body":"So maybe you're lucky enough to have that."},{"startTime":656.551,"endTime":659.426,"body":"I would say that for the most"},{"startTime":656.551,"endTime":659.426,"body":"part, that's not the case."},{"startTime":659.426,"endTime":660.601,"body":"That it's just feast or famine."},{"startTime":660.601,"endTime":663.676,"body":"You're starting off as a small company,"},{"startTime":660.601,"endTime":663.676,"body":"you're getting to the point where"},{"startTime":663.676,"endTime":667.209,"body":"you've grown and you've been able to"},{"startTime":663.676,"endTime":667.209,"body":"get large enough where you realize"},{"startTime":667.209,"endTime":671.634,"body":"you're large enough and you realize,"},{"startTime":667.209,"endTime":671.634,"body":"crap, we need to be a product led team."},{"startTime":672.359,"endTime":677.018,"body":"We are at this point not that, and we"},{"startTime":672.359,"endTime":677.018,"body":"are losing business because of this."},{"startTime":677.018,"endTime":679.993,"body":"We are growing enormous technical debt."},{"startTime":680.243,"endTime":683.943,"body":"We are, we need to fix some of"},{"startTime":680.243,"endTime":683.943,"body":"the problems that we have created"},{"startTime":684.118,"endTime":686.843,"body":"and now, We're going to be agile."},{"startTime":687.743,"endTime":688.218,"body":"Now."},{"startTime":688.218,"endTime":690.559,"body":"We have all of these kind"},{"startTime":688.218,"endTime":690.559,"body":"of bad practices in place."},{"startTime":690.559,"endTime":692.684,"body":"It's all that we've ever"},{"startTime":690.559,"endTime":692.684,"body":"done for however many years."},{"startTime":692.709,"endTime":692.784,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":693.009,"endTime":694.359,"body":", we've grown to this size company."},{"startTime":694.359,"endTime":694.434,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":694.809,"endTime":696.609,"body":". And now we are gonna be agile."},{"startTime":696.709,"endTime":697.809,"body":"Maybe who, who knows?"},{"startTime":697.809,"endTime":700.059,"body":"Maybe we've been acquired and"},{"startTime":697.809,"endTime":700.059,"body":"we've got new, new leadership and"},{"startTime":700.059,"endTime":701.309,"body":"they say we're gonna be agile."},{"startTime":701.359,"endTime":702.993,"body":"We're gonna do Scrum right now."},{"startTime":703.118,"endTime":703.643,"body":"Pretty typical."},{"startTime":703.659,"endTime":703.926,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":703.926,"endTime":704.218,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":704.268,"endTime":704.443,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":704.768,"endTime":709.126,"body":"So now now we're going to just, now"},{"startTime":704.768,"endTime":709.126,"body":"we're, we're going to make that happen"},{"startTime":709.126,"endTime":711.876,"body":"just magically with all the people"},{"startTime":709.126,"endTime":711.876,"body":"who have never done this before."},{"startTime":712.026,"endTime":714.851,"body":"And then all this also, you know what,"},{"startTime":712.026,"endTime":714.851,"body":"we're doing this on a limited budget."},{"startTime":714.851,"endTime":717.618,"body":"So we are gonna have a product"},{"startTime":714.851,"endTime":717.618,"body":"we're, we're gonna be product led."},{"startTime":717.918,"endTime":721.243,"body":"Gonna make sure to have some product owner"},{"startTime":717.918,"endTime":721.243,"body":"or product management and, or, or both."},{"startTime":721.268,"endTime":722.864,"body":"but no scrum master we don't"},{"startTime":721.268,"endTime":722.864,"body":"have the budget for that."},{"startTime":723.686,"endTime":725.219,"body":"Do you want me, you want me"},{"startTime":723.686,"endTime":725.219,"body":"to go or you want No, you go."},{"startTime":725.252,"endTime":726.702,"body":"I don't hang out with alcoholics."},{"startTime":726.752,"endTime":730.871,"body":"Uh,  because like, Hey"},{"startTime":726.752,"endTime":730.871,"body":"can you come pick me up?"},{"startTime":730.871,"endTime":734.171,"body":"I can't drive cuz I got this"},{"startTime":730.871,"endTime":734.171,"body":"court thing and hey I, I I'm"},{"startTime":734.171,"endTime":736.021,"body":"gonna make this commitment that"},{"startTime":734.171,"endTime":736.021,"body":"I'll be there a certain time."},{"startTime":736.608,"endTime":738.058,"body":"I drank too much and I can't make it."},{"startTime":738.1,"endTime":740.625,"body":"Like, how many things happen before, I"},{"startTime":738.1,"endTime":740.625,"body":"don't, just don't believe you anymore."},{"startTime":740.658,"endTime":741.283,"body":"I'm committed."},{"startTime":741.288,"endTime":744.5,"body":"I'm here, I'm doing my stuff, and"},{"startTime":741.288,"endTime":744.5,"body":"when I need help, I need it now."},{"startTime":744.583,"endTime":749.533,"body":"I wish I had a, a, a several thousand"},{"startTime":744.583,"endTime":749.533,"body":"person company and I had hundreds"},{"startTime":749.533,"endTime":753.183,"body":"of people across several teams, and"},{"startTime":749.533,"endTime":753.183,"body":"I could just hand my work items out"},{"startTime":753.188,"endTime":756.625,"body":"that I need done my features, as"},{"startTime":753.188,"endTime":756.625,"body":"like a director of product or a chief"},{"startTime":756.625,"endTime":757.325,"body":"of product or something like that."},{"startTime":757.325,"endTime":760.25,"body":"Be like, Hey, we need to"},{"startTime":757.325,"endTime":760.25,"body":"increase whatever by 20%."},{"startTime":760.275,"endTime":763.9,"body":"Okay, I'll go to team A who handles this"},{"startTime":760.275,"endTime":763.9,"body":"and Team B who handles this or whatever."},{"startTime":763.9,"endTime":765.275,"body":"And they'll come up with"},{"startTime":763.9,"endTime":765.275,"body":"a like, that's great."},{"startTime":765.35,"endTime":766.2,"body":"Most companies are not there."},{"startTime":766.2,"endTime":769.85,"body":"Most companies are like, they have one"},{"startTime":766.2,"endTime":769.85,"body":"team and they have one product, maybe"},{"startTime":769.85,"endTime":771.575,"body":"two product, and the team does both."},{"startTime":771.8,"endTime":772.05,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":772.05,"endTime":772.975,"body":"And they straddle their time."},{"startTime":772.975,"endTime":775.175,"body":"They have a bunch of things they"},{"startTime":772.975,"endTime":775.175,"body":"could do and they'll never get to."},{"startTime":775.175,"endTime":776.525,"body":"They're in the later part of the backlog."},{"startTime":776.7,"endTime":776.925,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":777.2,"endTime":778.175,"body":"in the now, next, later."},{"startTime":778.225,"endTime":778.45,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":779.3,"endTime":783.05,"body":"When you're a small company, the CEO takes"},{"startTime":779.3,"endTime":783.05,"body":"care of this stuff, and then at some point"},{"startTime":783.05,"endTime":786.492,"body":"your company grows and grows and grows"},{"startTime":783.05,"endTime":786.492,"body":"until a point where the CEO basically"},{"startTime":786.625,"endTime":789.325,"body":"can't fulfill that original role and"},{"startTime":786.625,"endTime":789.325,"body":"then needs to delegate it to somebody."},{"startTime":789.35,"endTime":790.9,"body":"Life Scrum Master,"},{"startTime":789.35,"endTime":790.9,"body":"I'll, I'll just go here."},{"startTime":790.9,"endTime":792.95,"body":"So, so that people just cut to"},{"startTime":790.9,"endTime":792.95,"body":"the end of the podcast now this is"},{"startTime":792.95,"endTime":795.225,"body":"probably like 15 minutes into the"},{"startTime":792.95,"endTime":795.225,"body":"podcast or 12 or something like that."},{"startTime":795.7,"endTime":798.356,"body":"Most of the times I see this get"},{"startTime":795.7,"endTime":798.356,"body":"delegated to the engineering lead."},{"startTime":798.531,"endTime":801.056,"body":"Whatever their title, the director,"},{"startTime":798.531,"endTime":801.056,"body":"engineering, blah, blah, blah, manager,"},{"startTime":801.06,"endTime":802.406,"body":"engineering, cto, whatever it is."},{"startTime":802.406,"endTime":805.156,"body":"In a small company, they basically"},{"startTime":802.406,"endTime":805.156,"body":"pick their title and this process"},{"startTime":805.156,"endTime":806.181,"body":"stuff gets delegated to them."},{"startTime":806.356,"endTime":808.956,"body":"Of course they've nev they've"},{"startTime":806.356,"endTime":808.956,"body":"never had to figure out the stuff."},{"startTime":808.956,"endTime":811.631,"body":"Maybe they try to read books and"},{"startTime":808.956,"endTime":811.631,"body":"figure it out and try to decrease"},{"startTime":811.631,"endTime":812.781,"body":"that knowledge gap Good on them."},{"startTime":812.931,"endTime":816.956,"body":"And they've never really done this team"},{"startTime":812.931,"endTime":816.956,"body":"development stuff before, and they see a"},{"startTime":816.956,"endTime":818.481,"body":"scrum master as a non-technical person."},{"startTime":818.481,"endTime":822.181,"body":"So they're like, why would I hire a"},{"startTime":818.481,"endTime":822.181,"body":"non-technical person on my technical team?"},{"startTime":822.831,"endTime":823.581,"body":"Makes no sense to them."},{"startTime":823.906,"endTime":824.806,"body":"That's not what they're hiring."},{"startTime":824.814,"endTime":828.339,"body":"They need to understand that this"},{"startTime":824.814,"endTime":828.339,"body":"is a leadership position that the"},{"startTime":828.414,"endTime":833.989,"body":"leadership has delegated to somebody"},{"startTime":828.414,"endTime":833.989,"body":"to plug the team into the rest of"},{"startTime":833.989,"endTime":834.889,"body":"the leadership in the organization."},{"startTime":834.964,"endTime":837.739,"body":"So it's leadership, delegating"},{"startTime":834.964,"endTime":837.739,"body":"leadership down to the team level."},{"startTime":837.864,"endTime":840.326,"body":"So if you're not gonna have"},{"startTime":837.864,"endTime":840.326,"body":"a scrum master, You can"},{"startTime":840.326,"endTime":842.201,"body":"have somebody play the role."},{"startTime":842.651,"endTime":843.501,"body":"I hope that comes over here."},{"startTime":843.901,"endTime":844.976,"body":"Play the role."},{"startTime":844.976,"endTime":846.601,"body":"I hope that comes over"},{"startTime":844.976,"endTime":846.601,"body":"on audio really well."},{"startTime":846.601,"endTime":849.276,"body":"Like you can have somebody play the role."},{"startTime":849.276,"endTime":849.326,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":849.401,"endTime":850.436,"body":"No conflict of interest there."},{"startTime":850.501,"endTime":850.676,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":850.726,"endTime":851.151,"body":"Part-time."},{"startTime":851.156,"endTime":851.476,"body":"Play the role."},{"startTime":851.576,"endTime":851.801,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":851.801,"endTime":854.526,"body":"Play the role means that they're"},{"startTime":851.801,"endTime":854.526,"body":"gonna be doing that part-time and,"},{"startTime":854.526,"endTime":857.468,"body":"and only the bare minimum that they"},{"startTime":854.526,"endTime":857.468,"body":"can do until they pass on to somebody"},{"startTime":857.472,"endTime":858.318,"body":"else and pass on the next person."},{"startTime":858.593,"endTime":861.726,"body":"So the idea of playing the role is"},{"startTime":858.593,"endTime":861.726,"body":"they're never really improving at it."},{"startTime":861.768,"endTime":863.201,"body":"It's like the on-call engineer."},{"startTime":863.301,"endTime":865.368,"body":"Remember back in the day when I'm"},{"startTime":863.301,"endTime":865.368,"body":"gonna show my age here on the podcast."},{"startTime":865.368,"endTime":869.368,"body":"Like when you had like a, a pager thingy"},{"startTime":865.368,"endTime":869.368,"body":"that would send pages SkyTel pagers."},{"startTime":869.501,"endTime":869.735,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":869.735,"endTime":870.035,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":870.039,"endTime":872.418,"body":"And then like, you'd just pass the pagers"},{"startTime":870.039,"endTime":872.418,"body":"to the next person in the office and"},{"startTime":872.418,"endTime":873.643,"body":"be like, the page is yours this week."},{"startTime":873.668,"endTime":874.593,"body":"And the system is automated."},{"startTime":874.593,"endTime":875.868,"body":"And it said like, server has a problem."},{"startTime":875.868,"endTime":876.668,"body":"It sends you a page."},{"startTime":876.668,"endTime":880.393,"body":"Like, I remember those days there was"},{"startTime":876.668,"endTime":880.393,"body":"a pager roster that you signed up on."},{"startTime":880.768,"endTime":885.218,"body":"This problem is exacerbated for"},{"startTime":880.768,"endTime":885.218,"body":"teams that have a multitude of duties"},{"startTime":885.218,"endTime":889.226,"body":"like doing net new development doing"},{"startTime":885.218,"endTime":889.226,"body":"support work at the same time, right?"},{"startTime":889.526,"endTime":892.401,"body":"Doing exploratory work for"},{"startTime":889.526,"endTime":892.401,"body":"you know, marketing people."},{"startTime":892.81,"endTime":894.66,"body":"doing ad hoc things that"},{"startTime":892.81,"endTime":894.66,"body":"come out of left field."},{"startTime":894.664,"endTime":898.135,"body":"A CEO CXO comes in and says, Hey,"},{"startTime":894.664,"endTime":898.135,"body":"yeah, yeah, you need some to show"},{"startTime":898.139,"endTime":899.61,"body":"at this trade show for next week."},{"startTime":899.61,"endTime":900.485,"body":"So drop everything."},{"startTime":901.435,"endTime":905.618,"body":"All of these things can let their"},{"startTime":901.435,"endTime":905.618,"body":"course run among the team unless you"},{"startTime":905.618,"endTime":907.268,"body":"have somebody who can say what is."},{"startTime":907.818,"endTime":909.093,"body":"Biggest priority right now."},{"startTime":909.268,"endTime":912.443,"body":"And what's the opportunity"},{"startTime":909.268,"endTime":912.443,"body":"cost of doing that versus this?"},{"startTime":912.443,"endTime":912.518,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":912.868,"endTime":915.851,"body":"And setting the messaging straight and"},{"startTime":912.868,"endTime":915.851,"body":"that person is known as a scrum master."},{"startTime":916.076,"endTime":916.876,"body":"You don't have that."},{"startTime":916.876,"endTime":919.451,"body":"People are gonna run around"},{"startTime":916.876,"endTime":919.451,"body":"with no direction and"},{"startTime":919.485,"endTime":920.16,"body":"at the end of the night."},{"startTime":920.21,"endTime":920.335,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":920.335,"endTime":921.06,"body":"He can't cut that out."},{"startTime":921.235,"endTime":922.51,"body":"this is the problem, right?"},{"startTime":923.81,"endTime":926.885,"body":", I'll let that stay"},{"startTime":923.81,"endTime":926.885,"body":"in . That is the problem."},{"startTime":926.885,"endTime":930.41,"body":"You have no, you have no traffic cop, you"},{"startTime":926.885,"endTime":930.41,"body":"have nobody who can relay the messaging."},{"startTime":930.41,"endTime":930.56,"body":"It's."},{"startTime":931.672,"endTime":932.847,"body":"Where's it gonna go?"},{"startTime":932.889,"endTime":936.439,"body":"that's what the uh, that's why I pay a"},{"startTime":932.889,"endTime":936.439,"body":"bucket of money to my engineering manager."},{"startTime":937.014,"endTime":938.089,"body":"Like he figures it."},{"startTime":938.089,"endTime":938.364,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":938.364,"endTime":939.664,"body":"I said he, he figures it out."},{"startTime":940.047,"endTime":940.964,"body":"He figures all his team stuff."},{"startTime":941.122,"endTime":942.622,"body":"If he doesn't need a technical"},{"startTime":941.122,"endTime":942.622,"body":"person, then I'm not gonna"},{"startTime":942.622,"endTime":943.397,"body":"buy, I'm not gonna buy one."},{"startTime":943.397,"endTime":943.972,"body":"I'm not gonna get one."},{"startTime":944.197,"endTime":944.847,"body":"He'll figure it out."},{"startTime":944.897,"endTime":945.522,"body":"Yeah, it's all great."},{"startTime":945.831,"endTime":947.622,"body":"As well as your purview"},{"startTime":945.831,"endTime":947.622,"body":"as technical people."},{"startTime":947.622,"endTime":950.897,"body":"Cuz the engineering manager, being an"},{"startTime":947.622,"endTime":950.897,"body":"engineering manager only knows technology."},{"startTime":951.481,"endTime":954.131,"body":"can we, I just verify we're making"},{"startTime":951.481,"endTime":954.131,"body":"an assumption here as well, that"},{"startTime":954.131,"endTime":956.981,"body":"we don't have a scrum master,"},{"startTime":954.131,"endTime":956.981,"body":"but we do have a product person."},{"startTime":957.306,"endTime":957.606,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":957.781,"endTime":958.056,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":958.181,"endTime":959.306,"body":"So that's the assumption made."},{"startTime":959.631,"endTime":959.781,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":959.781,"endTime":963.456,"body":"So I think that from a prioritization"},{"startTime":959.781,"endTime":963.456,"body":"perspective, We could potentially"},{"startTime":963.656,"endTime":966.964,"body":"that that potentially could be,"},{"startTime":963.656,"endTime":966.964,"body":"that that should be master or that"},{"startTime":966.964,"endTime":968.989,"body":"should be, that should be taken"},{"startTime":966.964,"endTime":968.989,"body":"care of by the product person."},{"startTime":969.339,"endTime":971.839,"body":"But translating that, particularly"},{"startTime":969.339,"endTime":971.839,"body":"in this situation where you"},{"startTime":971.839,"endTime":975.064,"body":"described, where you have things"},{"startTime":971.839,"endTime":975.064,"body":"coming at you from implementation,"},{"startTime":975.164,"endTime":979.722,"body":"from support, CEO said, I need this"},{"startTime":975.164,"endTime":979.722,"body":"right now for some, whatever it is."},{"startTime":980.047,"endTime":985.447,"body":", who do you have that is helping"},{"startTime":980.047,"endTime":985.447,"body":"the product person and the team"},{"startTime":985.497,"endTime":986.897,"body":"figure out how to manage that?"},{"startTime":987.231,"endTime":990.822,"body":"Yeah, because it's at this point, from my"},{"startTime":987.231,"endTime":990.822,"body":"experience, either the product person is"},{"startTime":990.822,"endTime":993.997,"body":"gonna try their best, figure out how to"},{"startTime":990.822,"endTime":993.997,"body":"handle this, or they're gonna throw their"},{"startTime":993.997,"endTime":995.772,"body":"hands up and be like, not my job, man."},{"startTime":995.797,"endTime":997.347,"body":"No, you're, and let"},{"startTime":995.797,"endTime":997.347,"body":"somebody else figure it out."},{"startTime":997.351,"endTime":1000.797,"body":"Hey, I'm, and then all of a sudden we saw,"},{"startTime":997.351,"endTime":1000.797,"body":"we see the, the plane crashing, you know?"},{"startTime":1000.797,"endTime":1000.922,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1000.997,"endTime":1002.197,"body":"Well, I'm glad you went there first."},{"startTime":1002.618,"endTime":1005.893,"body":"I was gonna go there next cuz like, I'm"},{"startTime":1002.618,"endTime":1005.893,"body":"sure I'm gonna put Om on the spot for"},{"startTime":1005.893,"endTime":1009.118,"body":"this one cause I'm sure he can give us"},{"startTime":1005.893,"endTime":1009.118,"body":"some, some sage advice to, to, to dig"},{"startTime":1009.118,"endTime":1011.526,"body":"us out of this hole, which is in a 10"},{"startTime":1009.118,"endTime":1011.526,"body":"person company like I was talking about"},{"startTime":1011.526,"endTime":1016.176,"body":"before, the CEO as well will be doing the"},{"startTime":1011.526,"endTime":1016.176,"body":"product job, Hey, we need to build this,"},{"startTime":1016.201,"endTime":1017.201,"body":"Hey, we need to break into this market."},{"startTime":1017.251,"endTime":1018.501,"body":"Hey, we need to try to"},{"startTime":1017.251,"endTime":1018.501,"body":"figure out whatever."},{"startTime":1018.501,"endTime":1019.626,"body":"Hey, we'll put something out there."},{"startTime":1019.626,"endTime":1020.301,"body":"Oh, no one uses it."},{"startTime":1020.301,"endTime":1021.001,"body":"Okay, well let's try this."},{"startTime":1021.001,"endTime":1022.776,"body":"Oh, what are the metrics looks"},{"startTime":1021.001,"endTime":1022.776,"body":"like, whatever they're basically"},{"startTime":1022.781,"endTime":1024.501,"body":"doing the product job, even if"},{"startTime":1022.781,"endTime":1024.501,"body":"they're untrained to do the product,"},{"startTime":1024.506,"endTime":1025.151,"body":"job, they're doing the product."},{"startTime":1025.176,"endTime":1027.493,"body":"And at some point if they're successful"},{"startTime":1025.176,"endTime":1027.493,"body":"to catch fire, whatever happens."},{"startTime":1028.197,"endTime":1031.547,"body":"They say, Hey, at some point I need to"},{"startTime":1028.197,"endTime":1031.547,"body":"delegate this responsibility of my job"},{"startTime":1031.547,"endTime":1036.122,"body":"because it's kind of taken over my whole"},{"startTime":1031.547,"endTime":1036.122,"body":"day, which it does  and uh, like I need"},{"startTime":1036.122,"endTime":1039.047,"body":"to, I need to hire another employee to do"},{"startTime":1036.122,"endTime":1039.047,"body":"the product side of everything I'm doing."},{"startTime":1039.089,"endTime":1044.081,"body":"Anyway so separating the"},{"startTime":1039.089,"endTime":1044.081,"body":"product from the process."},{"startTime":1045.564,"endTime":1047.989,"body":"is where Stormy was going."},{"startTime":1048.064,"endTime":1048.239,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1048.589,"endTime":1050.864,"body":"That and that, that's, that's, that's"},{"startTime":1048.589,"endTime":1050.864,"body":"where I wanna, I wanna step through"},{"startTime":1050.864,"endTime":1056.089,"body":"that here, because the product, meaning"},{"startTime":1050.864,"endTime":1056.089,"body":"what we're going to build, and in"},{"startTime":1056.089,"endTime":1059.139,"body":"the order in which we would like to"},{"startTime":1056.089,"endTime":1059.139,"body":"tackle it, is one side of things."},{"startTime":1059.264,"endTime":1061.889,"body":"Cause with the, what we're going"},{"startTime":1059.264,"endTime":1061.889,"body":"to build also comes like, here's"},{"startTime":1061.889,"endTime":1064.614,"body":"some experiments, here's some data,"},{"startTime":1061.889,"endTime":1064.614,"body":"here's some market research, here's"},{"startTime":1064.614,"endTime":1065.864,"body":"some things I've tried and whatever."},{"startTime":1065.964,"endTime":1072.089,"body":"There are some, some, some qu quantitative"},{"startTime":1065.964,"endTime":1072.089,"body":"stats behind the product person."},{"startTime":1072.314,"endTime":1075.656,"body":"And then on the process side,"},{"startTime":1072.314,"endTime":1075.656,"body":"there are some, Hey, this"},{"startTime":1075.656,"endTime":1077.51,"body":"is the psychology of teams."},{"startTime":1077.61,"endTime":1080.01,"body":"Basically someone who"},{"startTime":1077.61,"endTime":1080.01,"body":"has gone down the road."},{"startTime":1080.789,"endTime":1083.089,"body":"Professional development"},{"startTime":1080.789,"endTime":1083.089,"body":"of how to develop teams,"},{"startTime":1083.489,"endTime":1085.964,"body":"someone who has gone down"},{"startTime":1083.489,"endTime":1085.964,"body":"the road of professionally"},{"startTime":1086.047,"endTime":1087.647,"body":"organizing and developing teams."},{"startTime":1087.647,"endTime":1088.247,"body":"That's what I'm trying to say."},{"startTime":1088.422,"endTime":1088.697,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1088.697,"endTime":1089.422,"body":"I don't know what's happening over there."},{"startTime":1089.697,"endTime":1094.164,"body":"Um, so trying to find someone to, to say,"},{"startTime":1089.697,"endTime":1094.164,"body":"Hey let me delegate the, the leadership"},{"startTime":1094.164,"endTime":1098.039,"body":"of product will be over here and let"},{"startTime":1094.164,"endTime":1098.039,"body":"me delegate the leadership of helping"},{"startTime":1098.039,"endTime":1102.631,"body":"my teams figure out how to get to the"},{"startTime":1098.039,"endTime":1102.631,"body":"next level with performance to somebody."},{"startTime":1102.814,"endTime":1103.789,"body":"Well, who does that?"},{"startTime":1104.189,"endTime":1107.714,"body":"You know, in the absence of a scrum"},{"startTime":1104.189,"endTime":1107.714,"body":"master specifically right to the"},{"startTime":1107.714,"endTime":1109.439,"body":"topic of this podcast, who does that?"},{"startTime":1110.489,"endTime":1112.564,"body":"The product person isn't"},{"startTime":1110.489,"endTime":1112.564,"body":"best positioned for that."},{"startTime":1112.914,"endTime":1115.439,"body":"They, like you said, it's a full-time"},{"startTime":1112.914,"endTime":1115.439,"body":"job to worry about a product and"},{"startTime":1115.443,"endTime":1116.747,"body":"all that product life cycle stuff."},{"startTime":1116.747,"endTime":1116.972,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1117.347,"endTime":1120.797,"body":"So they don't have the, the bandwidth"},{"startTime":1117.347,"endTime":1120.797,"body":"to worry about the process and"},{"startTime":1120.797,"endTime":1122.347,"body":"getting better at what they're doing."},{"startTime":1122.347,"endTime":1122.422,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1122.622,"endTime":1126.247,"body":", improving efficiencies, reducing"},{"startTime":1122.622,"endTime":1126.247,"body":"defects, things like that."},{"startTime":1126.247,"endTime":1127.522,"body":"Improving quality essentially."},{"startTime":1127.547,"endTime":1127.797,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1128.147,"endTime":1131.097,"body":"Because they're, they're really forming"},{"startTime":1128.147,"endTime":1131.097,"body":"the pathway to the product, right?"},{"startTime":1131.097,"endTime":1135.072,"body":"This is what we have to build for these"},{"startTime":1131.097,"endTime":1135.072,"body":"purposes, for these audiences, et cetera."},{"startTime":1135.222,"endTime":1135.372,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1135.622,"endTime":1137.872,"body":"But how well you build"},{"startTime":1135.622,"endTime":1137.872,"body":"it, how robust it is."},{"startTime":1138.322,"endTime":1139.247,"body":"That's the process side."},{"startTime":1139.247,"endTime":1144.047,"body":"And without a scrum master present,"},{"startTime":1139.247,"endTime":1144.047,"body":"this is just left to the teams"},{"startTime":1144.322,"endTime":1147.122,"body":"and then we're back down to,"},{"startTime":1144.322,"endTime":1147.122,"body":"are the teams checking a box?"},{"startTime":1147.86,"endTime":1152.285,"body":"Are they simply delivering to what the"},{"startTime":1147.86,"endTime":1152.285,"body":"engineering manager is putting down?"},{"startTime":1152.585,"endTime":1154.735,"body":"You know, like, like, here are"},{"startTime":1152.585,"endTime":1154.735,"body":"things I want you to work on."},{"startTime":1154.735,"endTime":1155.035,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":1155.085,"endTime":1155.56,"body":"And that's it."},{"startTime":1155.61,"endTime":1158.61,"body":"Or this is a product that"},{"startTime":1155.61,"endTime":1158.61,"body":"we have to build, right?"},{"startTime":1158.61,"endTime":1160.085,"body":"It has to meet a certain level of quality."},{"startTime":1160.085,"endTime":1161.16,"body":"How best can we do that?"},{"startTime":1161.21,"endTime":1161.285,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1161.935,"endTime":1165.11,"body":"and the scrum master is instrumental in"},{"startTime":1161.935,"endTime":1165.11,"body":"those conversations because they are there"},{"startTime":1165.11,"endTime":1167.035,"body":"to reduce all these distractions, right?"},{"startTime":1167.039,"endTime":1171.31,"body":"The sources that may lead you"},{"startTime":1167.039,"endTime":1171.31,"body":"to have a suboptimal output  in"},{"startTime":1171.314,"endTime":1174.726,"body":"your product both from a tangible"},{"startTime":1171.314,"endTime":1174.726,"body":"product quality perspective."},{"startTime":1174.776,"endTime":1174.826,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1174.831,"endTime":1174.91,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1174.914,"endTime":1175.201,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1175.326,"endTime":1176.943,"body":"As well as getting late to the market."},{"startTime":1177.268,"endTime":1177.518,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1177.593,"endTime":1180.343,"body":"Getting late to the market with a"},{"startTime":1177.593,"endTime":1180.343,"body":"suboptimal product is the worst of all."},{"startTime":1180.343,"endTime":1180.568,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1180.893,"endTime":1183.443,"body":", so yeah, in that situation, when you"},{"startTime":1180.893,"endTime":1183.443,"body":"don't have a scrum master, you're"},{"startTime":1183.443,"endTime":1186.218,"body":"basically left at the mercy of your"},{"startTime":1183.443,"endTime":1186.218,"body":"team or the, or the engineering level."},{"startTime":1186.218,"endTime":1186.351,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1186.493,"endTime":1189.418,"body":"So I'm gonna come to the defense"},{"startTime":1186.493,"endTime":1189.418,"body":"of angry men on the internet."},{"startTime":1189.485,"endTime":1190.66,"body":"Is it engineering manager?"},{"startTime":1190.664,"endTime":1190.885,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1190.885,"endTime":1192.735,"body":"Well, no, it's not even"},{"startTime":1190.885,"endTime":1192.735,"body":"engineering managers."},{"startTime":1192.735,"endTime":1194.335,"body":"Like I see Scrum trainers"},{"startTime":1192.735,"endTime":1194.335,"body":"as stuff all the time."},{"startTime":1194.335,"endTime":1196.41,"body":"Like, or, or I'm sorry."},{"startTime":1196.685,"endTime":1198.11,"body":"In their profiles says thought leaders."},{"startTime":1198.335,"endTime":1198.635,"body":"Oh, yeah."},{"startTime":1199.235,"endTime":1201.685,"body":"Look, I would be a lot better if"},{"startTime":1199.235,"endTime":1201.685,"body":"they, like, if their profile said"},{"startTime":1201.685,"endTime":1204.685,"body":"thought leaders, but it was th h o"},{"startTime":1201.685,"endTime":1204.685,"body":"t like thought leaders like, oh I,"},{"startTime":1204.689,"endTime":1207.36,"body":"that I would find hilarious and I"},{"startTime":1204.689,"endTime":1207.36,"body":"would follow all of them on LinkedIn."},{"startTime":1207.364,"endTime":1208.56,"body":"It would be hilarious."},{"startTime":1208.818,"endTime":1210.989,"body":"but no, they, like, seriously"},{"startTime":1208.818,"endTime":1210.989,"body":"put like, I'm a thought leader"},{"startTime":1211.014,"endTime":1211.739,"body":"in their profile anyway."},{"startTime":1211.964,"endTime":1216.326,"body":"What they will say in response to this is,"},{"startTime":1211.964,"endTime":1216.326,"body":"You can't be a good scrum master if you've"},{"startTime":1216.326,"endTime":1220.076,"body":"never written code and understanding"},{"startTime":1216.326,"endTime":1220.076,"body":"how to program in whatever language and"},{"startTime":1220.076,"endTime":1221.526,"body":"like, you can't be a good like that."},{"startTime":1221.843,"endTime":1224.368,"body":"I understand like nobody can see cuz"},{"startTime":1221.843,"endTime":1224.368,"body":"I'm like shooting on one camera, but"},{"startTime":1224.368,"endTime":1228.468,"body":"like the way you're looking at me right"},{"startTime":1224.368,"endTime":1228.468,"body":"now, , I, I completely understand that."},{"startTime":1228.818,"endTime":1230.068,"body":"But that's, that is what they like."},{"startTime":1230.068,"endTime":1232.743,"body":"There are people on LinkedIn"},{"startTime":1230.068,"endTime":1232.743,"body":"that just put posts out like that"},{"startTime":1232.993,"endTime":1234.651,"body":"one again and again, they do."},{"startTime":1234.776,"endTime":1236.826,"body":"A lot of these people actually"},{"startTime":1234.776,"endTime":1236.826,"body":"have a development background."},{"startTime":1236.831,"endTime":1237.726,"body":"Surprise, surprise."},{"startTime":1238.518,"endTime":1239.026,"body":"It's the devil."},{"startTime":1239.031,"endTime":1239.576,"body":"They know"},{"startTime":1239.676,"endTime":1242.043,"body":"I think that a lot of them are"},{"startTime":1239.676,"endTime":1242.043,"body":"developers just by virtue of the"},{"startTime":1242.043,"endTime":1243.41,"body":"fact that they are  in that realm."},{"startTime":1243.41,"endTime":1245.16,"body":"I mean, I think that's the point"},{"startTime":1243.41,"endTime":1245.16,"body":"that you were trying to make."},{"startTime":1245.16,"endTime":1245.51,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1245.51,"endTime":1248.301,"body":"But you could argue back and forth"},{"startTime":1245.51,"endTime":1248.301,"body":"on this, but I find that there's"},{"startTime":1248.301,"endTime":1251.976,"body":"some real benefit to a scrum master"},{"startTime":1248.301,"endTime":1251.976,"body":"not having a development background."},{"startTime":1251.976,"endTime":1252.026,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1252.526,"endTime":1256.518,"body":", and really being able to focus , on"},{"startTime":1252.526,"endTime":1256.518,"body":"team development, behavioral psychology,"},{"startTime":1256.518,"endTime":1260.331,"body":"adult learning and being able  to connect"},{"startTime":1256.518,"endTime":1260.331,"body":"with and, and help that, that truly"},{"startTime":1260.331,"endTime":1264.622,"body":"from a team development perspective,"},{"startTime":1260.331,"endTime":1264.622,"body":"instead of becoming the, the task"},{"startTime":1264.622,"endTime":1268.572,"body":"manager potentially, or the secretary,"},{"startTime":1264.622,"endTime":1268.572,"body":"just sometimes you, but that's master."},{"startTime":1269.072,"endTime":1269.847,"body":"I think you have a point."},{"startTime":1269.889,"endTime":1274.514,"body":"but I also think this is not a black"},{"startTime":1269.889,"endTime":1274.514,"body":"and white necessarily, because it's not."},{"startTime":1274.764,"endTime":1278.964,"body":"There are some cases where knowing"},{"startTime":1274.764,"endTime":1278.964,"body":"at least a little bit about."},{"startTime":1279.826,"endTime":1283.276,"body":"what is entailed in developing"},{"startTime":1279.826,"endTime":1283.276,"body":"software and deploying software."},{"startTime":1283.301,"endTime":1283.401,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1283.476,"endTime":1285.751,"body":"If you knew a little bit about"},{"startTime":1283.476,"endTime":1285.751,"body":"that, it might be helpful."},{"startTime":1285.951,"endTime":1288.601,"body":"That doesn't mean you have to have"},{"startTime":1285.951,"endTime":1288.601,"body":"grown up as a software development"},{"startTime":1288.601,"endTime":1289.851,"body":"written code, as Brian was saying."},{"startTime":1289.851,"endTime":1290.601,"body":"You don't have to do that."},{"startTime":1290.851,"endTime":1292.326,"body":"You have to understand what it means."},{"startTime":1292.551,"endTime":1295.326,"body":"And if you understand what it means,"},{"startTime":1292.551,"endTime":1295.326,"body":"I think the way you can serve your"},{"startTime":1295.326,"endTime":1299.585,"body":"teams better is for example, crafting"},{"startTime":1295.326,"endTime":1299.585,"body":"your definition of done to say, okay,"},{"startTime":1299.635,"endTime":1302.21,"body":"well does it mean we're done when"},{"startTime":1299.635,"endTime":1302.21,"body":"we're done developing and testing?"},{"startTime":1302.235,"endTime":1304.535,"body":"Or does it mean when we're done, when"},{"startTime":1302.235,"endTime":1304.535,"body":"we're done developing testing and"},{"startTime":1304.535,"endTime":1306.36,"body":"deployment to an elevated environment?"},{"startTime":1306.385,"endTime":1306.51,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1306.71,"endTime":1308.285,"body":"And what does that entail?"},{"startTime":1308.36,"endTime":1312.251,"body":"Like that, that little paragraph"},{"startTime":1308.36,"endTime":1312.251,"body":"or, or line that I just said deploy"},{"startTime":1312.256,"endTime":1313.151,"body":"into an elevated environment."},{"startTime":1313.151,"endTime":1315.751,"body":"Just a few words that actually"},{"startTime":1313.151,"endTime":1315.751,"body":"could be quite tricky depending"},{"startTime":1315.751,"endTime":1316.826,"body":"on the environment you are in."},{"startTime":1316.868,"endTime":1318.943,"body":"I know that for certain in."},{"startTime":1319.456,"endTime":1323.239,"body":"Regulated industries especially, and"},{"startTime":1319.456,"endTime":1323.239,"body":"certainly , the Department of Defense the"},{"startTime":1323.239,"endTime":1326.689,"body":"definition of done is a little bit more"},{"startTime":1323.239,"endTime":1326.689,"body":"stringent than simply, oh, well they're"},{"startTime":1326.689,"endTime":1328.014,"body":"deployed to this environment, right?"},{"startTime":1328.014,"endTime":1328.089,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1328.339,"endTime":1331.239,"body":"."},{"startTime":1328.339,"endTime":1331.239,"body":"So if a Scrum master understood that"},{"startTime":1331.239,"endTime":1334.364,"body":"can help their team, so I think you"},{"startTime":1331.239,"endTime":1334.364,"body":"don't have to have grown up as a"},{"startTime":1334.368,"endTime":1336.889,"body":"developer, but you have to have some"},{"startTime":1334.368,"endTime":1336.889,"body":"knowledge that you can grain along."},{"startTime":1337.389,"endTime":1338.239,"body":"If you're open minded."},{"startTime":1338.264,"endTime":1339.789,"body":"Yeah, I like, I'm not agree with that."},{"startTime":1339.814,"endTime":1342.414,"body":"I, I am not advocating"},{"startTime":1339.814,"endTime":1342.414,"body":"being a lazy scrum master."},{"startTime":1342.414,"endTime":1346.739,"body":"Like that's, I'm not advocating,"},{"startTime":1342.414,"endTime":1346.739,"body":"like punching out the, the ceremonies"},{"startTime":1346.789,"endTime":1349.422,"body":"and then like being done like that,"},{"startTime":1346.789,"endTime":1349.422,"body":"that that's not what I'm advocating."},{"startTime":1349.547,"endTime":1353.756,"body":"Like I'm advocating, like you should"},{"startTime":1349.547,"endTime":1353.756,"body":"have some level of, even if it's"},{"startTime":1353.756,"endTime":1358.072,"body":"not expertise, like some, some"},{"startTime":1353.756,"endTime":1358.072,"body":"ability to help the product manager"},{"startTime":1358.147,"endTime":1359.022,"body":"or product owner on your team."},{"startTime":1359.064,"endTime":1362.189,"body":"Write stories, break stories down"},{"startTime":1359.064,"endTime":1362.189,"body":"some, some business analysis skill."},{"startTime":1362.189,"endTime":1364.347,"body":"Like there's a bunch of like"},{"startTime":1362.189,"endTime":1364.347,"body":"little things, a little help with"},{"startTime":1364.347,"endTime":1366.922,"body":"operations, a little help with"},{"startTime":1364.347,"endTime":1366.922,"body":"like, hey, when we're done with a"},{"startTime":1366.922,"endTime":1369.447,"body":"sprint, this is, I went through this"},{"startTime":1366.922,"endTime":1369.447,"body":"recently, so this, this is one I'll."},{"startTime":1370.035,"endTime":1373.001,"body":"For the, the process wheel"},{"startTime":1370.035,"endTime":1373.001,"body":"versus the product wheel."},{"startTime":1373.176,"endTime":1377.051,"body":"I'll bring this one up and, and, and"},{"startTime":1373.176,"endTime":1377.051,"body":"I'm willing to, to, I'm also willing to"},{"startTime":1377.051,"endTime":1379.901,"body":"debate on whether this truly belongs in"},{"startTime":1377.051,"endTime":1379.901,"body":"the process or product wheel, but which I"},{"startTime":1379.901,"endTime":1380.901,"body":"think you need to explain a little more."},{"startTime":1380.901,"endTime":1382.81,"body":"I don't know that you went over"},{"startTime":1380.901,"endTime":1382.81,"body":"that really well as far as Yeah."},{"startTime":1382.81,"endTime":1383.276,"body":"Oh, no, no."},{"startTime":1383.301,"endTime":1385.526,"body":"It's well in line with the rest of"},{"startTime":1383.301,"endTime":1385.526,"body":"the podcast, I really, okay, now I'm"},{"startTime":1385.526,"endTime":1386.701,"body":"not going over things very well go."},{"startTime":1386.701,"endTime":1390.46,"body":"But the idea is if Scrum master is"},{"startTime":1386.701,"endTime":1390.46,"body":"a leader of the process that the"},{"startTime":1390.464,"endTime":1393.685,"body":"development team uses, the product"},{"startTime":1390.464,"endTime":1393.685,"body":"manager or product owner, if it's"},{"startTime":1393.685,"endTime":1397.089,"body":"one team is in charge of the product,"},{"startTime":1393.685,"endTime":1397.089,"body":"the operations of the product."},{"startTime":1397.089,"endTime":1399.131,"body":"And it's gonna sound like crap"},{"startTime":1397.089,"endTime":1399.131,"body":"when I'm, is a venn diagram, right?"},{"startTime":1399.131,"endTime":1399.531,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":1399.535,"endTime":1400.564,"body":"Yeah, it's, yeah, it's"},{"startTime":1399.535,"endTime":1400.564,"body":"Venn diagram, right."},{"startTime":1401.089,"endTime":1401.389,"body":"And."},{"startTime":1402.251,"endTime":1404.601,"body":"Who does the process side of it"},{"startTime":1402.251,"endTime":1404.601,"body":"when there's no scrum master?"},{"startTime":1404.835,"endTime":1406.585,"body":", some of it falls onto the product manager."},{"startTime":1406.81,"endTime":1407.81,"body":"Like I know that for certain."},{"startTime":1407.885,"endTime":1408.06,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1408.285,"endTime":1412.997,"body":"Um, because the, because in my time"},{"startTime":1408.285,"endTime":1412.997,"body":"as a scrum master the times when I was"},{"startTime":1412.997,"endTime":1417.572,"body":"most successful lobbying for change was"},{"startTime":1412.997,"endTime":1417.572,"body":"when I lobbied for something and the"},{"startTime":1417.597,"endTime":1419.097,"body":"product manager on my team had my back."},{"startTime":1419.272,"endTime":1419.447,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1419.497,"endTime":1420.572,"body":"And then we both went up together."},{"startTime":1420.722,"endTime":1420.947,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1420.947,"endTime":1423.572,"body":"And we were almost nearly a"},{"startTime":1420.947,"endTime":1423.572,"body":"hundred percent capable of"},{"startTime":1423.572,"endTime":1424.356,"body":"getting the change we need."},{"startTime":1424.885,"endTime":1427.418,"body":"You know, it was only when I was"},{"startTime":1424.885,"endTime":1427.418,"body":"going up alone or  when the product"},{"startTime":1427.418,"endTime":1428.493,"body":"person was like, look, I'm too busy."},{"startTime":1428.493,"endTime":1429.568,"body":"I don't really care"},{"startTime":1428.493,"endTime":1429.568,"body":"about this, or whatever."},{"startTime":1429.718,"endTime":1433.593,"body":"That I or, or when it was all the scrum"},{"startTime":1429.718,"endTime":1433.593,"body":"masters across the teams lobbying for"},{"startTime":1433.593,"endTime":1435.743,"body":"something process wise across the teams."},{"startTime":1435.901,"endTime":1439.626,"body":"Like a planning or like a architectural"},{"startTime":1435.901,"endTime":1439.626,"body":"type of thing, or like a joint backlog,"},{"startTime":1439.626,"endTime":1441.051,"body":"refinement or So, stuff like that."},{"startTime":1441.051,"endTime":1441.526,"body":"Stuff like that."},{"startTime":1441.726,"endTime":1445.651,"body":"To make sure, to make sure the, so,"},{"startTime":1441.726,"endTime":1445.651,"body":"so for me, the process side for me"},{"startTime":1446.276,"endTime":1450.876,"body":"is more on the how side of how things"},{"startTime":1446.276,"endTime":1450.876,"body":"get done than the product side."},{"startTime":1450.876,"endTime":1453.876,"body":"The product side is more of"},{"startTime":1450.876,"endTime":1453.876,"body":"the what things to do, right?"},{"startTime":1453.881,"endTime":1457.876,"body":"In the product meetings we're"},{"startTime":1453.881,"endTime":1457.876,"body":"talking about strategy, we might"},{"startTime":1457.881,"endTime":1459.251,"body":"dip into operations a little bit."},{"startTime":1459.251,"endTime":1462.001,"body":"Hey, I gotta line this up before your"},{"startTime":1459.251,"endTime":1462.001,"body":"team works on whatever, and then your"},{"startTime":1462.006,"endTime":1464.651,"body":"team can start this and then this"},{"startTime":1462.006,"endTime":1464.651,"body":"other team can do this or whatever,"},{"startTime":1464.651,"endTime":1465.551,"body":"and everything will be lined up."},{"startTime":1465.551,"endTime":1466.226,"body":"Right, right, right."},{"startTime":1466.226,"endTime":1467.951,"body":"That there might be a little"},{"startTime":1466.226,"endTime":1467.951,"body":"bit of operations in the product"},{"startTime":1468.076,"endTime":1468.843,"body":"and the product management."},{"startTime":1469.389,"endTime":1471.214,"body":"Session with a bunch of"},{"startTime":1469.389,"endTime":1471.214,"body":"product managers, right?"},{"startTime":1471.464,"endTime":1473.939,"body":"But the majority, and, and you might,"},{"startTime":1471.464,"endTime":1473.939,"body":"you might have some stakeholders in the"},{"startTime":1473.939,"endTime":1477.064,"body":"product session, they might say quiet a"},{"startTime":1473.939,"endTime":1477.064,"body":"lot of times they might be very chatty"},{"startTime":1477.064,"endTime":1479.614,"body":"a lot of times and be like, oh my my"},{"startTime":1477.064,"endTime":1479.614,"body":"customer, I represent this customer."},{"startTime":1479.739,"endTime":1480.864,"body":"I'm trying to sell into this market."},{"startTime":1480.864,"endTime":1483.114,"body":"I'm trying to do whatever product"},{"startTime":1480.864,"endTime":1483.114,"body":"people, what are you doing with the"},{"startTime":1483.114,"endTime":1484.489,"body":"product to, to help me out or whatever."},{"startTime":1484.726,"endTime":1485.026,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1485.051,"endTime":1486.976,"body":"And so there might like, there might"},{"startTime":1485.051,"endTime":1486.976,"body":"be sales people, there might be"},{"startTime":1486.976,"endTime":1489.426,"body":"other executives, in your product"},{"startTime":1486.976,"endTime":1489.426,"body":"management meetings, that's a completely"},{"startTime":1489.431,"endTime":1492.26,"body":"different conversation than what"},{"startTime":1489.431,"endTime":1492.26,"body":"happens in the scrum masters meeting"},{"startTime":1492.51,"endTime":1493.885,"body":"of how are we gonna implement this?"},{"startTime":1493.885,"endTime":1495.285,"body":"Let's pretend we all work"},{"startTime":1493.885,"endTime":1495.285,"body":"at the same organization."},{"startTime":1495.285,"endTime":1496.21,"body":"We're all product managers, right?"},{"startTime":1496.21,"endTime":1496.435,"body":"I know."},{"startTime":1496.485,"endTime":1497.21,"body":"Stick with me."},{"startTime":1497.21,"endTime":1498.685,"body":"Everyone, everyone is listening."},{"startTime":1498.685,"endTime":1499.16,"body":"Stick with me."},{"startTime":1499.16,"endTime":1500.135,"body":"Please don't, don't sign off."},{"startTime":1500.139,"endTime":1502.435,"body":"It's, it's related to Scrum"},{"startTime":1500.139,"endTime":1502.435,"body":"Masters, but I'm using the example"},{"startTime":1502.435,"endTime":1503.885,"body":"of a product manager like Stormy."},{"startTime":1503.885,"endTime":1506.968,"body":"Let's say that you, you are the"},{"startTime":1503.885,"endTime":1506.968,"body":"product manager for growth and Om"},{"startTime":1506.985,"endTime":1510.135,"body":"you are the product manager for my"},{"startTime":1506.985,"endTime":1510.135,"body":"developer enablement type platforms."},{"startTime":1510.26,"endTime":1512.81,"body":"And I'm the product manager for"},{"startTime":1510.26,"endTime":1512.81,"body":"whatever my main feature is, right?"},{"startTime":1514.843,"endTime":1517.81,"body":"to tweets because they're about to"},{"startTime":1514.843,"endTime":1517.81,"body":"need a product manager for tweets."},{"startTime":1518.356,"endTime":1521.697,"body":"And then some , they're about to"},{"startTime":1518.356,"endTime":1521.697,"body":"need a product management staff."},{"startTime":1521.697,"endTime":1522.447,"body":"That's what I'm saying."},{"startTime":1522.722,"endTime":1525.422,"body":"We're, we're lobbying to become the new"},{"startTime":1522.722,"endTime":1525.422,"body":"product management staff at Twitter."},{"startTime":1525.426,"endTime":1527.226,"body":"And you guys already"},{"startTime":1525.426,"endTime":1527.226,"body":"moved to Seattle with me."},{"startTime":1527.226,"endTime":1527.701,"body":"Let's go."},{"startTime":1527.751,"endTime":1528.326,"body":"Let's do it."},{"startTime":1528.759,"endTime":1529.434,"body":"."},{"startTime":1528.759,"endTime":1529.434,"body":"I was talking about scaling."},{"startTime":1529.476,"endTime":1532.759,"body":"We're all product managers and when we"},{"startTime":1529.476,"endTime":1532.759,"body":"meet, we're talking about how changes in"},{"startTime":1532.759,"endTime":1536.218,"body":"our area will affect the whole, and we're"},{"startTime":1532.759,"endTime":1536.218,"body":"talking to leadership who are saying,"},{"startTime":1536.218,"endTime":1537.893,"body":"we want to go this place in the future."},{"startTime":1537.943,"endTime":1539.768,"body":"And we're all talking"},{"startTime":1537.943,"endTime":1539.768,"body":"about how our little."},{"startTime":1540.455,"endTime":1544.655,"body":"Of the product contribute to the"},{"startTime":1540.455,"endTime":1544.655,"body":"overall goals of the business."},{"startTime":1544.705,"endTime":1544.805,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1545.005,"endTime":1545.03,"body":". Okay."},{"startTime":1545.38,"endTime":1549.355,"body":"That is different than saying scrum,"},{"startTime":1545.38,"endTime":1549.355,"body":"master Om, your team is not, is"},{"startTime":1549.355,"endTime":1550.38,"body":"manually deploying a production."},{"startTime":1550.38,"endTime":1552.18,"body":"You should be online with"},{"startTime":1550.38,"endTime":1552.18,"body":"release pipelines or whatever."},{"startTime":1552.18,"endTime":1555.472,"body":"And stormy your team is, has"},{"startTime":1552.18,"endTime":1555.472,"body":"not containerized any of their"},{"startTime":1555.497,"endTime":1556.572,"body":"applications that are deploying."},{"startTime":1556.697,"endTime":1558.797,"body":"They should we should be completely"},{"startTime":1556.697,"endTime":1558.797,"body":"online with Kubernetes so we can move"},{"startTime":1558.797,"endTime":1561.072,"body":"your stuff around from environment"},{"startTime":1558.797,"endTime":1561.072,"body":"to environment and we can change your"},{"startTime":1561.072,"endTime":1563.772,"body":"hardware out underneath the applications"},{"startTime":1561.072,"endTime":1563.772,"body":"with very little impact to you and"},{"startTime":1563.772,"endTime":1564.847,"body":"you won't even see it or whatever."},{"startTime":1565.13,"endTime":1568.072,"body":"The process of how things are"},{"startTime":1565.13,"endTime":1568.072,"body":"done is a parallel conversation."},{"startTime":1568.172,"endTime":1568.347,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1568.397,"endTime":1569.547,"body":"That is happening at the same time."},{"startTime":1569.547,"endTime":1572.322,"body":"So I feel if you don't have a scrum"},{"startTime":1569.547,"endTime":1572.322,"body":"master, Jesus, this was the longest,"},{"startTime":1572.397,"endTime":1573.872,"body":"this was the longest diatribe ever."},{"startTime":1573.997,"endTime":1577.022,"body":"Like if you don't have a scrum"},{"startTime":1573.997,"endTime":1577.022,"body":"master, those conversations"},{"startTime":1577.022,"endTime":1578.172,"body":"are not parallel lanes anymore."},{"startTime":1578.172,"endTime":1579.422,"body":"Now they're all one lanes."},{"startTime":1579.426,"endTime":1583.597,"body":"So now your product manager is"},{"startTime":1579.426,"endTime":1583.597,"body":"involved in like, I think we should"},{"startTime":1583.597,"endTime":1585.347,"body":"containerize, blah, blah, blah, blah."},{"startTime":1585.497,"endTime":1587.897,"body":"And like, like maybe you have a product"},{"startTime":1585.497,"endTime":1587.897,"body":"manager who's like, I don't know what,"},{"startTime":1587.922,"endTime":1591.447,"body":"like what's a, what's a Kubernetes"},{"startTime":1587.922,"endTime":1591.447,"body":"like, I don't What's a, what's a Docker?"},{"startTime":1591.697,"endTime":1593.022,"body":"I don't, I don't care."},{"startTime":1593.097,"endTime":1594.497,"body":"Like, what, what does a"},{"startTime":1593.097,"endTime":1594.497,"body":"customer care about this?"},{"startTime":1594.497,"endTime":1596.597,"body":"And your engineering manager will be"},{"startTime":1594.497,"endTime":1596.597,"body":"like, customer will never see this."},{"startTime":1596.697,"endTime":1597.322,"body":"They won't care."},{"startTime":1597.372,"endTime":1597.697,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1597.747,"endTime":1598.797,"body":"And they'll be like,"},{"startTime":1597.747,"endTime":1598.797,"body":"well then I don't care."},{"startTime":1598.797,"endTime":1599.297,"body":"I'm, you know what?"},{"startTime":1599.297,"endTime":1600.097,"body":"I'm busy at this time."},{"startTime":1600.101,"endTime":1601.247,"body":"I'm not gonna come to"},{"startTime":1600.101,"endTime":1601.247,"body":"these meetings anymore."},{"startTime":1601.622,"endTime":1604.722,"body":"Wait, I think we touched on this at least"},{"startTime":1601.622,"endTime":1604.722,"body":"not a tangent on another podcast, but Yes."},{"startTime":1604.722,"endTime":1605.647,"body":"Even though that is the."},{"startTime":1606.547,"endTime":1607.872,"body":"Well, the customer doesn't care about it."},{"startTime":1607.897,"endTime":1611.997,"body":"If it's getting you to that point in"},{"startTime":1607.897,"endTime":1611.997,"body":"time sooner where you can deliver the"},{"startTime":1611.997,"endTime":1614.897,"body":"same amount of value, then the team"},{"startTime":1611.997,"endTime":1614.897,"body":"cares about it, then the company should"},{"startTime":1614.897,"endTime":1616.647,"body":"care about it because time is money."},{"startTime":1616.997,"endTime":1617.322,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1617.538,"endTime":1621.188,"body":"so yeah, I, the point I, the"},{"startTime":1617.538,"endTime":1621.188,"body":"point I was gonna make there is"},{"startTime":1621.188,"endTime":1622.888,"body":"this, going back to the earlier."},{"startTime":1623.363,"endTime":1627.988,"body":"Conversation about the scrum master coming"},{"startTime":1623.363,"endTime":1627.988,"body":"from a technical background of having cut"},{"startTime":1627.988,"endTime":1629.813,"body":"code themselves with their own two hands."},{"startTime":1630.938,"endTime":1632.038,"body":"Is it necessary?"},{"startTime":1632.288,"endTime":1632.563,"body":"No."},{"startTime":1632.738,"endTime":1633.513,"body":"In my experience, no."},{"startTime":1633.513,"endTime":1634.163,"body":"It's not necessary."},{"startTime":1634.163,"endTime":1636.613,"body":"I've met some cross scrum masters"},{"startTime":1634.163,"endTime":1636.613,"body":"that have never written code, but"},{"startTime":1636.618,"endTime":1638.063,"body":"they're fantastic at their craft."},{"startTime":1638.363,"endTime":1639.038,"body":"I like, right."},{"startTime":1639.263,"endTime":1640.238,"body":"So that, that's one."},{"startTime":1640.238,"endTime":1643.613,"body":"The other is, is it a hindrance if"},{"startTime":1640.238,"endTime":1643.613,"body":"you have been a developer, only if"},{"startTime":1643.613,"endTime":1646.413,"body":"you cannot change your thinking, like"},{"startTime":1643.613,"endTime":1646.413,"body":"you grew up a certain way coding."},{"startTime":1646.588,"endTime":1649.388,"body":"And if you can't let go of that, then it"},{"startTime":1646.588,"endTime":1649.388,"body":"might be a hindrance for you personally."},{"startTime":1649.538,"endTime":1649.713,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1649.738,"endTime":1652.488,"body":"But if it's a hindrance in that"},{"startTime":1649.738,"endTime":1652.488,"body":"case for you personally, likely"},{"startTime":1652.538,"endTime":1655.938,"body":"it will project to the team too,"},{"startTime":1652.538,"endTime":1655.938,"body":"because you are the bottleneck now."},{"startTime":1655.963,"endTime":1656.063,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1656.063,"endTime":1657.488,"body":"Recognize that, right?"},{"startTime":1657.488,"endTime":1658.563,"body":"Like I self awareness."},{"startTime":1658.613,"endTime":1658.988,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1659.038,"endTime":1659.688,"body":"I wanna Exactly."},{"startTime":1659.73,"endTime":1661.088,"body":"this is probably what I meant"},{"startTime":1659.73,"endTime":1661.088,"body":"to talk about the first time."},{"startTime":1661.13,"endTime":1664.443,"body":"If you don't have scrum master in"},{"startTime":1661.13,"endTime":1664.443,"body":"your organization, And the purpose"},{"startTime":1664.443,"endTime":1667.126,"body":"of a scrum master is to delegate"},{"startTime":1664.443,"endTime":1667.126,"body":"those leadership accountabilities."},{"startTime":1667.126,"endTime":1669.313,"body":"And they're delegated to someone on"},{"startTime":1667.126,"endTime":1669.313,"body":"your development team who does not"},{"startTime":1669.313,"endTime":1671.088,"body":"have a day job of development, right."},{"startTime":1671.338,"endTime":1674.513,"body":"Of being a full-time developer and"},{"startTime":1671.338,"endTime":1674.513,"body":"accelerating you to the next level."},{"startTime":1674.555,"endTime":1677.013,"body":"I guess I'm like, I still have"},{"startTime":1674.555,"endTime":1677.013,"body":"this in the back of my head."},{"startTime":1677.018,"endTime":1679.563,"body":"I still have this person who's like,"},{"startTime":1677.018,"endTime":1679.563,"body":"well, a developer can do that part-time."},{"startTime":1679.83,"endTime":1684.105,"body":", can they, I mean, like, yeah, I guess,"},{"startTime":1679.83,"endTime":1684.105,"body":"I guess it could and, and I could"},{"startTime":1684.497,"endTime":1685.805,"body":"probably make a, a good case for."},{"startTime":1686.255,"endTime":1688.98,"body":"Like, let your developers do"},{"startTime":1686.255,"endTime":1688.98,"body":"this so they gain this skill set."},{"startTime":1689.605,"endTime":1692.813,"body":"But like I have to ask like, how"},{"startTime":1689.605,"endTime":1692.813,"body":"effective are they at lobbying for"},{"startTime":1693.005,"endTime":1694.063,"body":"a change up in the organization?"},{"startTime":1694.338,"endTime":1698.042,"body":"How effective are they at , reaching out"},{"startTime":1694.338,"endTime":1698.042,"body":"to leadership and, starting and making"},{"startTime":1698.042,"endTime":1700.517,"body":"a case for meaningful lasting change?"},{"startTime":1700.767,"endTime":1704.567,"body":"How effective are they at, at coordinating"},{"startTime":1700.767,"endTime":1704.567,"body":"across other teams to set something up?"},{"startTime":1704.571,"endTime":1706.992,"body":"Like, like for example, a community"},{"startTime":1704.571,"endTime":1706.992,"body":"of practice or you, I mean community"},{"startTime":1706.992,"endTime":1707.567,"body":"interest, something like that."},{"startTime":1707.717,"endTime":1710.867,"body":"Way back when we did episode on community"},{"startTime":1707.717,"endTime":1710.867,"body":"of interest or practice one or the"},{"startTime":1710.867,"endTime":1711.692,"body":"other, I don't remember what interest."},{"startTime":1711.742,"endTime":1711.942,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1712.075,"endTime":1715.2,"body":"way back when we did that, we talked"},{"startTime":1712.075,"endTime":1715.2,"body":"about , well your teams come to the"},{"startTime":1715.204,"endTime":1718.7,"body":"community of interest with their successes"},{"startTime":1715.204,"endTime":1718.7,"body":"and they share them with the other teams."},{"startTime":1718.75,"endTime":1721.7,"body":"And then as the other teams are"},{"startTime":1718.75,"endTime":1721.7,"body":"sitting in a session and seeing real."},{"startTime":1722.275,"endTime":1726.4,"body":"Code done by real teams, on real"},{"startTime":1722.275,"endTime":1726.4,"body":"pieces of the application that"},{"startTime":1726.4,"endTime":1727.4,"body":"other people might be working on."},{"startTime":1727.7,"endTime":1729.725,"body":"They're like, oh, that's"},{"startTime":1727.7,"endTime":1729.725,"body":"brilliant, that's great."},{"startTime":1729.975,"endTime":1730.75,"body":"We should be doing that."},{"startTime":1730.9,"endTime":1734.275,"body":"And so basically the, the, the one"},{"startTime":1730.9,"endTime":1734.275,"body":"team who is successful start sharing"},{"startTime":1734.279,"endTime":1737.5,"body":"their successes and then like the other"},{"startTime":1734.279,"endTime":1737.5,"body":"teams start following the successes."},{"startTime":1737.542,"endTime":1741.317,"body":"So the idea is everybody"},{"startTime":1737.542,"endTime":1741.317,"body":"elevates at a certain point."},{"startTime":1741.692,"endTime":1743.792,"body":"Everyone says, oh, that's a great"},{"startTime":1741.692,"endTime":1743.792,"body":"practice you guys are doing."},{"startTime":1744.067,"endTime":1745.267,"body":"Thanks for leading the way."},{"startTime":1746.167,"endTime":1747.167,"body":"We're gonna follow."},{"startTime":1747.542,"endTime":1750.95,"body":"You have already laid out examples"},{"startTime":1747.542,"endTime":1750.95,"body":"like maybe, maybe have like config"},{"startTime":1750.95,"endTime":1753.783,"body":"files, we can copy whatever YAML"},{"startTime":1750.95,"endTime":1753.783,"body":"files, whatever, whatever it is."},{"startTime":1753.783,"endTime":1754.225,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1754.492,"endTime":1755.125,"body":"Pipelines, whatever it is."},{"startTime":1755.125,"endTime":1755.325,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1755.367,"endTime":1757.325,"body":". We can just copy what you have,"},{"startTime":1755.367,"endTime":1757.325,"body":"change it for our environments,"},{"startTime":1757.325,"endTime":1758.325,"body":"and boom, now we're up and running."},{"startTime":1758.367,"endTime":1762.592,"body":"Maybe sit with us for a sprint and"},{"startTime":1758.367,"endTime":1762.592,"body":"now, now it took you three sprints,"},{"startTime":1762.667,"endTime":1764.192,"body":"four sprints, whatever to do that."},{"startTime":1764.604,"endTime":1765.479,"body":"We don't have to go through that."},{"startTime":1765.529,"endTime":1765.779,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1766.204,"endTime":1767.254,"body":"One sprint and boom, we're ahead."},{"startTime":1767.454,"endTime":1767.529,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1767.729,"endTime":1769.896,"body":", couple of things I wanna say, sort"},{"startTime":1767.729,"endTime":1769.896,"body":"of step back a little bit to a"},{"startTime":1769.896,"endTime":1772.721,"body":"comment I made earlier, by the way,"},{"startTime":1769.896,"endTime":1772.721,"body":"scrum masters setting all that up."},{"startTime":1772.896,"endTime":1773.846,"body":"Absolutely right."},{"startTime":1773.85,"endTime":1776.571,"body":"So I'll come back to that, but I"},{"startTime":1773.85,"endTime":1776.571,"body":"wanna go back briefly, real brief."},{"startTime":1776.996,"endTime":1778.346,"body":"you mentioned the word responsibilities."},{"startTime":1778.346,"endTime":1779.721,"body":"I say no, it's accountability sort."},{"startTime":1779.771,"endTime":1782.421,"body":"For those that are still listening at"},{"startTime":1779.771,"endTime":1782.421,"body":"this stage of the podcast, it's nobody."},{"startTime":1782.446,"endTime":1786.346,"body":"The difference between the two in my"},{"startTime":1782.446,"endTime":1786.346,"body":"mind is a scrum master is responsible"},{"startTime":1786.346,"endTime":1788.571,"body":"for conducting the events, right?"},{"startTime":1788.729,"endTime":1790.554,"body":"They're responsible for"},{"startTime":1788.729,"endTime":1790.554,"body":"facilitating the events."},{"startTime":1790.554,"endTime":1791.479,"body":"They put 'em on the calendar."},{"startTime":1791.529,"endTime":1792.529,"body":"That's their responsibility."},{"startTime":1792.929,"endTime":1796.629,"body":"They're accountable to improve"},{"startTime":1792.929,"endTime":1796.629,"body":"the team sprint over sprint."},{"startTime":1796.679,"endTime":1798.454,"body":"That's accountability"},{"startTime":1796.679,"endTime":1798.454,"body":"versus a responsibility."},{"startTime":1798.454,"endTime":1799.804,"body":"A responsibility is checking a box."},{"startTime":1799.804,"endTime":1801.179,"body":"Like I, I, yeah, that's my job."},{"startTime":1801.179,"endTime":1801.629,"body":"I'll do."},{"startTime":1801.979,"endTime":1805.704,"body":"And accountability is, I'm looking"},{"startTime":1801.979,"endTime":1805.704,"body":"to make sure we have retrospectives,"},{"startTime":1805.708,"endTime":1808.179,"body":"we take the findings out of those"},{"startTime":1805.708,"endTime":1808.179,"body":"and we actually implement those so"},{"startTime":1808.179,"endTime":1809.879,"body":"we can improve sprint in, sprint out."},{"startTime":1809.921,"endTime":1813.471,"body":"But yeah, to go back to this idea"},{"startTime":1809.921,"endTime":1813.471,"body":"of sharing across teams, right?"},{"startTime":1813.487,"endTime":1816.496,"body":"The, the, the lessons that other"},{"startTime":1813.487,"endTime":1816.496,"body":"people have learned through their"},{"startTime":1816.496,"endTime":1818.746,"body":"own investments, and then you"},{"startTime":1816.496,"endTime":1818.746,"body":"can kind of reap the benefits."},{"startTime":1819.596,"endTime":1820.121,"body":"Absolutely."},{"startTime":1820.121,"endTime":1823.846,"body":"The flip side is also just as important,"},{"startTime":1820.121,"endTime":1823.846,"body":"which is sharing the failures that"},{"startTime":1823.846,"endTime":1827.596,"body":"they've come across so you don't"},{"startTime":1823.846,"endTime":1827.596,"body":"step, step into the same dodo."},{"startTime":1827.621,"endTime":1827.871,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1828.396,"endTime":1829.771,"body":"They've failed doing something."},{"startTime":1829.821,"endTime":1830.146,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1830.271,"endTime":1831.496,"body":"Why, why are we gonna do that?"},{"startTime":1831.496,"endTime":1832.446,"body":"Look, it doesn't work."},{"startTime":1832.596,"endTime":1832.671,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1832.821,"endTime":1834.096,"body":"That's as important as it is."},{"startTime":1834.371,"endTime":1836.146,"body":"Look what they've done and"},{"startTime":1834.371,"endTime":1836.146,"body":"we can benefit from that."},{"startTime":1836.146,"endTime":1836.296,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1836.296,"endTime":1837.921,"body":"Sharing patterns and all"},{"startTime":1836.296,"endTime":1837.921,"body":"those kinds of things."},{"startTime":1837.925,"endTime":1838.446,"body":"That's great."},{"startTime":1838.479,"endTime":1841.496,"body":"I think, I mean, I'm, I'm gonna"},{"startTime":1838.479,"endTime":1841.496,"body":"jump in here because all those."},{"startTime":1842.071,"endTime":1845.171,"body":"Awesome practices, except we"},{"startTime":1842.071,"endTime":1845.171,"body":"do not have a scrum master."},{"startTime":1845.796,"endTime":1846.121,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1846.412,"endTime":1849.621,"body":"So without that, we do not have"},{"startTime":1846.412,"endTime":1849.621,"body":"a scrum master to do any of that."},{"startTime":1850.071,"endTime":1851.971,"body":"So as a couple of things,"},{"startTime":1850.071,"endTime":1851.971,"body":"couple points I wanna make."},{"startTime":1852.037,"endTime":1852.504,"body":"Good point."},{"startTime":1852.504,"endTime":1852.871,"body":"Good point."},{"startTime":1852.875,"endTime":1856.496,"body":"So in regards to developer, even a"},{"startTime":1852.875,"endTime":1856.496,"body":"part-time developer, I feel like."},{"startTime":1857.433,"endTime":1859.358,"body":"Any scrum master is better than none."},{"startTime":1859.412,"endTime":1862.412,"body":"The scrum master typically is responsible"},{"startTime":1859.412,"endTime":1862.412,"body":"for assisting the team with that process."},{"startTime":1862.412,"endTime":1862.812,"body":"The what?"},{"startTime":1863.337,"endTime":1863.637,"body":"Or excuse me."},{"startTime":1863.637,"endTime":1864.087,"body":"The how."},{"startTime":1864.087,"endTime":1864.171,"body":"The how."},{"startTime":1864.175,"endTime":1864.562,"body":"Yeah, sorry."},{"startTime":1864.567,"endTime":1869.912,"body":"The how, so if the team doesn't have"},{"startTime":1864.567,"endTime":1869.912,"body":"the scrum master, so they, let's"},{"startTime":1869.912,"endTime":1874.612,"body":"just assume they're not working as"},{"startTime":1869.912,"endTime":1874.612,"body":"effectively or growing and potentially"},{"startTime":1874.612,"endTime":1875.937,"body":"getting better as they should."},{"startTime":1875.937,"endTime":1877.937,"body":"Or they would, assuming"},{"startTime":1875.937,"endTime":1877.937,"body":"they had a scrum master."},{"startTime":1878.162,"endTime":1882.612,"body":"So their process is either poor"},{"startTime":1878.162,"endTime":1882.612,"body":"or stale or potentially declining."},{"startTime":1882.617,"endTime":1882.671,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":1882.987,"endTime":1887.437,"body":"So without that scrum master, so then your"},{"startTime":1882.987,"endTime":1887.437,"body":"product person, suboptimize, I say right."},{"startTime":1887.437,"endTime":1888.004,"body":"Suboptimized."},{"startTime":1888.008,"endTime":1888.162,"body":"Perfect."},{"startTime":1888.687,"endTime":1889.112,"body":"Also Stunted."},{"startTime":1889.446,"endTime":1890.937,"body":"Stunted, yeah."},{"startTime":1890.937,"endTime":1891.071,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1891.071,"endTime":1891.771,"body":"Speaking that."},{"startTime":1892.346,"endTime":1895.596,"body":"But, so then this would potentially fall"},{"startTime":1892.346,"endTime":1895.596,"body":"on to some of the, some of the product."},{"startTime":1895.596,"endTime":1897.971,"body":"But you know the product person and"},{"startTime":1895.596,"endTime":1897.971,"body":"you're saying, well, the product person"},{"startTime":1897.971,"endTime":1899.271,"body":"has a whole lot of other things to do."},{"startTime":1899.271,"endTime":1900.596,"body":"Can they really handle that well?"},{"startTime":1900.596,"endTime":1901.796,"body":"Here's my point in regards to that."},{"startTime":1902.879,"endTime":1909.204,"body":"how much like of the product person's job"},{"startTime":1902.879,"endTime":1909.204,"body":"is even a priority of figuring out the"},{"startTime":1909.204,"endTime":1912.833,"body":"what if we don't have a team that knows"},{"startTime":1909.204,"endTime":1912.833,"body":"how to do it right or is doing it so"},{"startTime":1912.833,"endTime":1914.479,"body":"poorly that we don't have the progress."},{"startTime":1915.404,"endTime":1920.129,"body":"to move forward with more of the"},{"startTime":1915.404,"endTime":1920.129,"body":"what, the, what becomes less."},{"startTime":1920.154,"endTime":1923.779,"body":"And like the movement of those gears from"},{"startTime":1920.154,"endTime":1923.779,"body":"the what into the how and how we start"},{"startTime":1923.779,"endTime":1929.054,"body":"pumping those things out becomes more"},{"startTime":1923.779,"endTime":1929.054,"body":"and more stagnant  and at some point just"},{"startTime":1929.079,"endTime":1931.079,"body":"a traffic jam to the point of stopping."},{"startTime":1931.079,"endTime":1931.479,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1931.804,"endTime":1935.954,"body":"So so yeah, just, just saying like,"},{"startTime":1931.804,"endTime":1935.954,"body":"from a product perspective, I, as a"},{"startTime":1935.954,"endTime":1939.421,"body":"product manager, product owner, product"},{"startTime":1935.954,"endTime":1939.421,"body":"person,  without a scrum master, I"},{"startTime":1939.421,"endTime":1942.996,"body":"want to help my team with that process."},{"startTime":1943.096,"endTime":1943.146,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1943.146,"endTime":1947.396,"body":"I feel like I need to help my team"},{"startTime":1943.146,"endTime":1947.396,"body":"with that process because without"},{"startTime":1947.396,"endTime":1949.896,"body":"that, the what becomes stagnant?"},{"startTime":1949.971,"endTime":1950.146,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1950.904,"endTime":1953.292,"body":"I've been in that example"},{"startTime":1950.904,"endTime":1953.292,"body":"before where I, I I come in."},{"startTime":1954.03,"endTime":1958.43,"body":", to an organization and I set up"},{"startTime":1954.03,"endTime":1958.43,"body":"their product practice for the first"},{"startTime":1958.43,"endTime":1960.313,"body":"time, and I work with the leadership."},{"startTime":1960.563,"endTime":1964.338,"body":"I work with their customers, and I say"},{"startTime":1960.563,"endTime":1964.338,"body":"like, here's a roadmap as I see it, and I"},{"startTime":1964.342,"endTime":1966.538,"body":"try to build consensus and everything you"},{"startTime":1964.342,"endTime":1966.538,"body":"do when you're a product manager, right?"},{"startTime":1966.542,"endTime":1970.226,"body":"I try to build consensus inside the"},{"startTime":1966.542,"endTime":1970.226,"body":"organization, but at some point you have"},{"startTime":1970.226,"endTime":1973.726,"body":"to go to your engineering leadership"},{"startTime":1970.226,"endTime":1973.726,"body":"who basically own all the resources"},{"startTime":1973.726,"endTime":1975.076,"body":"that are not you at this point."},{"startTime":1975.967,"endTime":1977.676,"body":"and say there's a deficiency here."},{"startTime":1978.051,"endTime":1979.176,"body":"Like, I don't see the teens improv."},{"startTime":1979.938,"endTime":1982.713,"body":"And I see nobody charged with the"},{"startTime":1979.938,"endTime":1982.713,"body":"leadership of improving the teams."},{"startTime":1982.913,"endTime":1986.013,"body":"Now, their retort to that might"},{"startTime":1982.913,"endTime":1986.013,"body":"be like, I'm the engineering"},{"startTime":1986.017,"endTime":1987.247,"body":"manager, cto, whatever."},{"startTime":1987.292,"endTime":1989.992,"body":"I'm charged with, with the"},{"startTime":1987.292,"endTime":1989.992,"body":"improvement of the teams."},{"startTime":1989.997,"endTime":1992.609,"body":"And it might be true, like especially in"},{"startTime":1989.997,"endTime":1992.609,"body":"a small company, it might be true that,"},{"startTime":1992.609,"endTime":1996.492,"body":"that they are the leader in the company"},{"startTime":1992.609,"endTime":1996.492,"body":"charged with making sure that all the"},{"startTime":1996.492,"endTime":1998.217,"body":"teams under them are constantly improving."},{"startTime":1998.217,"endTime":2003.517,"body":"I would argue that that is any c level"},{"startTime":1998.217,"endTime":2003.517,"body":"executive who has teams under them"},{"startTime":2003.617,"endTime":2007.067,"body":"in an organization that rolls up to"},{"startTime":2003.617,"endTime":2007.067,"body":"them to say that, that is your job."},{"startTime":2007.292,"endTime":2012.167,"body":"And if you are not doing a good job,"},{"startTime":2007.292,"endTime":2012.167,"body":"at making sure the teams are improving,"},{"startTime":2012.167,"endTime":2016.242,"body":"you've gotta delegate that to somebody"},{"startTime":2012.167,"endTime":2016.242,"body":"who's, it's now their full-time respons."},{"startTime":2016.505,"endTime":2020.13,"body":"To say it's your job to make"},{"startTime":2016.505,"endTime":2020.13,"body":"sure these teams are improving,"},{"startTime":2020.48,"endTime":2021.755,"body":"that becomes a scrum message job,"},{"startTime":2022.488,"endTime":2024.213,"body":"it certainly is not a"},{"startTime":2022.488,"endTime":2024.213,"body":"project manager's job."},{"startTime":2024.388,"endTime":2027.963,"body":"It's not a head of engineering's job"},{"startTime":2024.388,"endTime":2027.963,"body":"who's got a jockey architecture with"},{"startTime":2027.988,"endTime":2029.438,"body":"dates and a bunch of other delivery stuff."},{"startTime":2029.838,"endTime":2031.78,"body":"Like I've been in organizations"},{"startTime":2029.838,"endTime":2031.78,"body":"as well where  the development"},{"startTime":2031.83,"endTime":2035.972,"body":", wing of the organization also"},{"startTime":2031.83,"endTime":2035.972,"body":"deals with the product stuff."},{"startTime":2036.422,"endTime":2039.272,"body":"Like when you're the first product"},{"startTime":2036.422,"endTime":2039.272,"body":"manager who comes into an organization,"},{"startTime":2039.447,"endTime":2043.272,"body":"usually the CTO or chief developer"},{"startTime":2039.447,"endTime":2043.272,"body":"or head developer or whatever,"},{"startTime":2043.422,"endTime":2045.222,"body":"it also basically runs product."},{"startTime":2045.226,"endTime":2047.572,"body":"They, they tell people how"},{"startTime":2045.226,"endTime":2047.572,"body":"much things are gonna cost."},{"startTime":2047.797,"endTime":2049.822,"body":"They give people estimates"},{"startTime":2047.797,"endTime":2049.822,"body":"when things might be done."},{"startTime":2049.947,"endTime":2052.447,"body":"They try to take big things and"},{"startTime":2049.947,"endTime":2052.447,"body":"break 'em down into smaller things."},{"startTime":2052.447,"endTime":2054.447,"body":"They're doing some like business"},{"startTime":2052.447,"endTime":2054.447,"body":"analysis, the backlog refinement"},{"startTime":2054.447,"endTime":2055.922,"body":"type of stuff they're doing all of."},{"startTime":2056.484,"endTime":2058.734,"body":"And they're doing the CTO job and"},{"startTime":2056.484,"endTime":2058.734,"body":"they're trying to figure out the future"},{"startTime":2058.884,"endTime":2061.709,"body":"and they're doing the team building and"},{"startTime":2058.884,"endTime":2061.709,"body":"they're doing, so they're usually when"},{"startTime":2061.709,"endTime":2065.659,"body":"I partner with people at that level,"},{"startTime":2061.709,"endTime":2065.659,"body":"they're very happy that I'm there."},{"startTime":2066.509,"endTime":2068.934,"body":"Yeah, so you have a lot of"},{"startTime":2066.509,"endTime":2068.934,"body":"good will when you start."},{"startTime":2069.672,"endTime":2072.047,"body":"In that like I make it sound"},{"startTime":2069.672,"endTime":2072.047,"body":"like it's a bad situation."},{"startTime":2072.072,"endTime":2073.297,"body":"It's not a bad situation."},{"startTime":2073.297,"endTime":2076.047,"body":"You have a lot of good will when you"},{"startTime":2073.297,"endTime":2076.047,"body":"start, because they're very happy to"},{"startTime":2076.051,"endTime":2079.105,"body":"have someone to say, Hey, you continue"},{"startTime":2076.051,"endTime":2079.105,"body":"thinking about the future, thinking about"},{"startTime":2079.105,"endTime":2081.355,"body":"the technology, thinking about scaling,"},{"startTime":2079.105,"endTime":2081.355,"body":"thinking about performance, thinking"},{"startTime":2081.355,"endTime":2083.955,"body":"about like where we, where we should"},{"startTime":2081.355,"endTime":2083.955,"body":"be in five years, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2084.48,"endTime":2088.613,"body":"You continue thinking about that"},{"startTime":2084.48,"endTime":2088.613,"body":"stuff and you continue rolling."},{"startTime":2088.655,"endTime":2091.605,"body":"I'm thinking of a CTO in like"},{"startTime":2088.655,"endTime":2091.605,"body":"a 50 person company, right?"},{"startTime":2091.83,"endTime":2094.855,"body":"They're still like, at that level,"},{"startTime":2091.83,"endTime":2094.855,"body":"they're probably still doing code reviews."},{"startTime":2094.88,"endTime":2096.305,"body":"They're probably still at"},{"startTime":2094.88,"endTime":2096.305,"body":"that level in development."},{"startTime":2096.905,"endTime":2101.655,"body":", continue doing what you're doing"},{"startTime":2096.905,"endTime":2101.655,"body":"and I'm just gonna separate from you"},{"startTime":2102.055,"endTime":2103.83,"body":"all of the, when's it gonna be done?"},{"startTime":2103.93,"endTime":2104.63,"body":"How much is it gonna."},{"startTime":2105.288,"endTime":2106.963,"body":"Build consensus around"},{"startTime":2105.288,"endTime":2106.963,"body":"this is the right thing."},{"startTime":2107.338,"endTime":2110.688,"body":"What's a percentage of technical"},{"startTime":2107.338,"endTime":2110.688,"body":"versus feature development?"},{"startTime":2110.688,"endTime":2111.088,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":2111.563,"endTime":2113.063,"body":"That, that I'm gonna"},{"startTime":2111.563,"endTime":2113.063,"body":"separate all that stuff."},{"startTime":2113.063,"endTime":2116.088,"body":"And then, and then whenever anyone asks"},{"startTime":2113.063,"endTime":2116.088,"body":"you, when's something gonna be done,"},{"startTime":2116.263,"endTime":2119.488,"body":"just direct them back to me until they"},{"startTime":2116.263,"endTime":2119.488,"body":"learn to just come to me directly."},{"startTime":2119.888,"endTime":2122.888,"body":"And to get them over that hump is"},{"startTime":2119.888,"endTime":2122.888,"body":"a huge win for a small organization"},{"startTime":2123.113,"endTime":2126.838,"body":"because then product is now a, a"},{"startTime":2123.113,"endTime":2126.838,"body":"standalone pillar of the organization."},{"startTime":2127.147,"endTime":2130.834,"body":"And that person who probably was"},{"startTime":2127.147,"endTime":2130.834,"body":"overburdened quite honestly when I"},{"startTime":2130.909,"endTime":2134.426,"body":"came in, in the first place they have"},{"startTime":2130.909,"endTime":2134.426,"body":"a huge relief off of them because they"},{"startTime":2134.576,"endTime":2138.751,"body":"can stop answering a lot of questions"},{"startTime":2134.576,"endTime":2138.751,"body":"that they otherwise don't really like."},{"startTime":2138.755,"endTime":2141.201,"body":"They're not really interested in"},{"startTime":2138.755,"endTime":2141.201,"body":"being in the business of, no, I, yeah."},{"startTime":2141.201,"endTime":2142.151,"body":"I, I agree."},{"startTime":2142.155,"endTime":2146.201,"body":"I also think that depending on the size"},{"startTime":2142.155,"endTime":2146.201,"body":"and the nature of these leaders to begin"},{"startTime":2146.201,"endTime":2148.742,"body":"with, you may have a little bit of a a."},{"startTime":2149.392,"endTime":2153.067,"body":"Sticky situation there for a while"},{"startTime":2149.392,"endTime":2153.067,"body":"because they're used to running the show."},{"startTime":2153.201,"endTime":2155.101,"body":"And it just depends on"},{"startTime":2153.201,"endTime":2155.101,"body":"how much they trust you."},{"startTime":2155.459,"endTime":2157.934,"body":"If you come in and, and, and now"},{"startTime":2155.459,"endTime":2157.934,"body":"you're saying, look, I'm here."},{"startTime":2158.309,"endTime":2160.409,"body":"The day to day stuff that"},{"startTime":2158.309,"endTime":2160.409,"body":"you are still involved with,"},{"startTime":2160.459,"endTime":2161.934,"body":"you can just, you know Right."},{"startTime":2162.184,"endTime":2163.134,"body":"Entrust me to handle that."},{"startTime":2163.138,"endTime":2163.317,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2163.434,"endTime":2163.709,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2163.709,"endTime":2165.359,"body":"And you just focus on"},{"startTime":2163.709,"endTime":2165.359,"body":"the high level things."},{"startTime":2165.384,"endTime":2165.534,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2166.284,"endTime":2170.584,"body":"For a leader to feel comfortable"},{"startTime":2166.284,"endTime":2170.584,"body":"letting go, it may take some time."},{"startTime":2170.759,"endTime":2173.884,"body":"Because what I found is the"},{"startTime":2170.759,"endTime":2173.884,"body":"smaller companies that, especially"},{"startTime":2174.284,"endTime":2177.109,"body":"entrepreneurial, that are started by these"},{"startTime":2174.284,"endTime":2177.109,"body":"people that are technical to begin with."},{"startTime":2177.159,"endTime":2177.184,"body":"Mm."},{"startTime":2177.626,"endTime":2179.501,"body":"They like to keep their"},{"startTime":2177.626,"endTime":2179.501,"body":"fingers in the pie, right?"},{"startTime":2179.501,"endTime":2181.151,"body":"So they're like, okay, well okay."},{"startTime":2181.151,"endTime":2184.276,"body":"And then they're still riding"},{"startTime":2181.151,"endTime":2184.276,"body":"your behind when you're trying"},{"startTime":2184.276,"endTime":2185.151,"body":"to answer these questions."},{"startTime":2185.301,"endTime":2188.101,"body":"So  just be aware that that"},{"startTime":2185.301,"endTime":2188.101,"body":"may happen for a while."},{"startTime":2188.226,"endTime":2188.401,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2188.526,"endTime":2191.501,"body":"Once you escape, you reach that"},{"startTime":2188.526,"endTime":2191.501,"body":"certain level, like the escape."},{"startTime":2191.501,"endTime":2191.926,"body":"Velocity."},{"startTime":2191.951,"endTime":2192.776,"body":"Velocity, you're out of there."},{"startTime":2192.826,"endTime":2192.976,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2192.976,"endTime":2195.801,"body":"And then what happens is they"},{"startTime":2192.976,"endTime":2195.801,"body":"realize that they can trust you."},{"startTime":2195.851,"endTime":2196.101,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2196.326,"endTime":2199.401,"body":"And then you find a lot of space"},{"startTime":2196.326,"endTime":2199.401,"body":"because they're gonna leave you alone"},{"startTime":2199.401,"endTime":2201.726,"body":"for the stuff that they think you"},{"startTime":2199.401,"endTime":2201.726,"body":"should be doing you should be doing."},{"startTime":2201.776,"endTime":2201.951,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2202.126,"endTime":2202.701,"body":"Fantastic."},{"startTime":2202.701,"endTime":2207.551,"body":"That's the spot at which you can now say,"},{"startTime":2202.701,"endTime":2207.551,"body":"okay, I can now really focus on product."},{"startTime":2207.651,"endTime":2208.117,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2209.126,"endTime":2213.376,"body":"So alongside you there's a void, which"},{"startTime":2209.126,"endTime":2213.376,"body":"is, the whole podcast is all about that."},{"startTime":2213.451,"endTime":2214.626,"body":"The, the Scrum masters role."},{"startTime":2215.126,"endTime":2217.451,"body":"They're not there if they're not there."},{"startTime":2217.592,"endTime":2220.242,"body":", for all the reasons we've already"},{"startTime":2217.592,"endTime":2220.242,"body":"discussed today, so I won't go into those,"},{"startTime":2220.247,"endTime":2223.792,"body":"but one of the things you could look at"},{"startTime":2220.247,"endTime":2223.792,"body":"is to say, who do I partner with now?"},{"startTime":2223.797,"endTime":2224.667,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":2224.926,"endTime":2227.401,"body":"Now for those that exist, your"},{"startTime":2224.926,"endTime":2227.401,"body":"choices are quite limited."},{"startTime":2227.901,"endTime":2230.901,"body":"Really, it's the architects or the"},{"startTime":2227.901,"endTime":2230.901,"body":"engineering leads at that stage,"},{"startTime":2230.942,"endTime":2233.367,"body":"but there is another avenue, which"},{"startTime":2230.942,"endTime":2233.367,"body":"is you don't have a scrum master."},{"startTime":2234.067,"endTime":2236.892,"body":"Now I'm going a little bit beyond"},{"startTime":2234.067,"endTime":2236.892,"body":"the scaling question, right?"},{"startTime":2237.126,"endTime":2238.447,"body":"it isn't a single team anymore."},{"startTime":2238.497,"endTime":2241.572,"body":"Let's say, let's say you, you're looking"},{"startTime":2238.497,"endTime":2241.572,"body":"to get another team or, or more teams."},{"startTime":2241.872,"endTime":2244.047,"body":"So you don't have a scrum"},{"startTime":2241.872,"endTime":2244.047,"body":"master to begin with."},{"startTime":2244.322,"endTime":2245.297,"body":"You're gonna get more teams."},{"startTime":2245.297,"endTime":2247.222,"body":"The problem is getting worse, right?"},{"startTime":2247.397,"endTime":2249.172,"body":"You didn't have a scrum"},{"startTime":2247.397,"endTime":2249.172,"body":"master for one team."},{"startTime":2249.747,"endTime":2250.797,"body":"So you spin up another team."},{"startTime":2250.801,"endTime":2253.097,"body":"You know, you don't have scrum"},{"startTime":2250.801,"endTime":2253.097,"body":"master for two teams or three teams."},{"startTime":2253.472,"endTime":2256.022,"body":"So one of the things you could"},{"startTime":2253.472,"endTime":2256.022,"body":"consider here, even if it's short"},{"startTime":2256.022,"endTime":2259.522,"body":"term, is to engage the services of an"},{"startTime":2256.022,"endTime":2259.522,"body":"agile coach to come in and help out."},{"startTime":2259.522,"endTime":2262.455,"body":"In the interim, the thing they're"},{"startTime":2259.522,"endTime":2262.455,"body":"helping out is not only the day to day,"},{"startTime":2263.055,"endTime":2264.98,"body":"they're also trying to be your ally."},{"startTime":2265.58,"endTime":2268.705,"body":"As product in convincing"},{"startTime":2265.58,"endTime":2268.705,"body":"leadership to appoint these"},{"startTime":2268.705,"endTime":2271.455,"body":"people into teams, scrum masters."},{"startTime":2271.505,"endTime":2271.83,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2272.23,"endTime":2275.93,"body":"Um, they of course, in parallel, they're"},{"startTime":2272.23,"endTime":2275.93,"body":"also instilling sound agile principles"},{"startTime":2275.93,"endTime":2277.78,"body":"and practices and all of that good stuff."},{"startTime":2277.83,"endTime":2280.88,"body":"So they, if that succeeds and the"},{"startTime":2277.83,"endTime":2280.88,"body":"Scrum masters come in, you are going"},{"startTime":2280.88,"endTime":2282.73,"body":"to now see a force multiplier effect."},{"startTime":2282.805,"endTime":2282.98,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2283.113,"endTime":2283.413,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2283.413,"endTime":2283.647,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2283.73,"endTime":2287.38,"body":". And when you get that, that's when the"},{"startTime":2283.73,"endTime":2287.38,"body":"agile coach knows they've done their job."},{"startTime":2287.505,"endTime":2287.78,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2287.78,"endTime":2288.08,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2288.305,"endTime":2290.805,"body":"At some point in the scaling,"},{"startTime":2288.305,"endTime":2290.805,"body":"they can now step away."},{"startTime":2290.88,"endTime":2291.113,"body":"Yeah,"},{"startTime":2291.155,"endTime":2294.559,"body":"metrics I feel like we've left"},{"startTime":2291.155,"endTime":2294.559,"body":"that out of our discussion."},{"startTime":2294.584,"endTime":2294.684,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2295.009,"endTime":2298.905,"body":"probably in error because if you're"},{"startTime":2295.009,"endTime":2298.905,"body":"tracking the right things I don't feel"},{"startTime":2298.909,"endTime":2300.48,"body":"this would be that difficult to lobby for."},{"startTime":2300.48,"endTime":2301.826,"body":"Hey, we need someone in charge of process."},{"startTime":2302.026,"endTime":2305.051,"body":"Every company I ever came"},{"startTime":2302.026,"endTime":2305.051,"body":"into as a product person."},{"startTime":2305.451,"endTime":2308.701,"body":"I, I feel, I, I like, I would like, I'd"},{"startTime":2305.451,"endTime":2308.701,"body":"like to ask like two or three questions."},{"startTime":2309.409,"endTime":2311.334,"body":", maybe every month."},{"startTime":2311.559,"endTime":2312.334,"body":"I don't know, maybe months."},{"startTime":2312.338,"endTime":2313.584,"body":"Two, two or, I don't know, six weeks."},{"startTime":2313.588,"endTime":2314.209,"body":"I don't, I don't know."},{"startTime":2314.359,"endTime":2316.084,"body":"Every couple sprints I'd like to ask."},{"startTime":2316.284,"endTime":2317.309,"body":", do you know all my stakeholders?"},{"startTime":2317.484,"endTime":2322.051,"body":"Do you feel that you feel there is a"},{"startTime":2317.484,"endTime":2322.051,"body":"backlog and that you can see it anytime?"},{"startTime":2323.126,"endTime":2323.651,"body":"Visibility."},{"startTime":2324.501,"endTime":2327.576,"body":"Do you feel that the backlog"},{"startTime":2324.501,"endTime":2327.576,"body":"is prioritized based on the"},{"startTime":2327.601,"endTime":2329.051,"body":"highest needs of the business?"},{"startTime":2329.092,"endTime":2330.317,"body":"The most urgent needs of the business?"},{"startTime":2330.322,"endTime":2331.392,"body":"I don't know a better"},{"startTime":2330.322,"endTime":2331.392,"body":"way to describe that."},{"startTime":2331.567,"endTime":2333.642,"body":"Basically the most valuable things"},{"startTime":2331.567,"endTime":2333.642,"body":"that the business could be focusing on."},{"startTime":2333.647,"endTime":2333.942,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2333.992,"endTime":2334.917,"body":"Do you feel there is a backlog?"},{"startTime":2334.967,"endTime":2336.292,"body":"Number one, do you feel"},{"startTime":2334.967,"endTime":2336.292,"body":"there is a backlog?"},{"startTime":2336.342,"endTime":2340.417,"body":"And that is, it is prioritized in a way"},{"startTime":2336.342,"endTime":2340.417,"body":"where it addresses the most valuable"},{"startTime":2340.417,"endTime":2341.567,"body":"things that business could be working on."},{"startTime":2341.942,"endTime":2342.517,"body":"Those are my questions."},{"startTime":2342.792,"endTime":2344.342,"body":"What are the questions for a scrum master?"},{"startTime":2344.342,"endTime":2347.392,"body":"Like, if I'm gonna start as"},{"startTime":2344.342,"endTime":2347.392,"body":"like, Hey, the, the organization"},{"startTime":2347.392,"endTime":2348.367,"body":"never had a scrum master before."},{"startTime":2348.567,"endTime":2349.417,"body":"I'm the first one."},{"startTime":2349.867,"endTime":2351.592,"body":"What are your questions like that?"},{"startTime":2351.592,"endTime":2355.142,"body":"Because I, cause I could easily"},{"startTime":2351.592,"endTime":2355.142,"body":"deploy that as a survey, as a product"},{"startTime":2355.467,"endTime":2360.501,"body":"manager to show like, like, cause"},{"startTime":2355.467,"endTime":2360.501,"body":"everything I'm gonna say, Qualitative."},{"startTime":2361.051,"endTime":2364.526,"body":"Hey, do you feel that your"},{"startTime":2361.051,"endTime":2364.526,"body":"ideas are being taken seriously?"},{"startTime":2364.876,"endTime":2367.751,"body":"Do you feel that the product"},{"startTime":2364.876,"endTime":2367.751,"body":"reflects what you need for your job?"},{"startTime":2367.776,"endTime":2371.501,"body":"Like it's all qualitative, but once I"},{"startTime":2367.776,"endTime":2371.501,"body":"put it in a survey, now I've got magic."},{"startTime":2371.501,"endTime":2372.451,"body":"Now it's quantitative."},{"startTime":2372.451,"endTime":2372.551,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2372.709,"endTime":2374.555,"body":"I can pick that one up, that"},{"startTime":2372.709,"endTime":2374.555,"body":"thread, so Yes, absolutely."},{"startTime":2374.559,"endTime":2377.897,"body":"But the difference on the scrum"},{"startTime":2374.559,"endTime":2377.897,"body":"master side is this, whereas on what"},{"startTime":2378.005,"endTime":2381.68,"body":"you were describing is it starts"},{"startTime":2378.005,"endTime":2381.68,"body":"largely with qualitative metrics."},{"startTime":2381.73,"endTime":2381.98,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2382.055,"endTime":2384.655,"body":"On the scrum master"},{"startTime":2382.055,"endTime":2384.655,"body":"side, not so much Right."},{"startTime":2384.73,"endTime":2386.18,"body":"It, it is pretty much quantitative."},{"startTime":2386.18,"endTime":2389.28,"body":"So as a, an incoming scrum master trying"},{"startTime":2386.18,"endTime":2389.28,"body":"to understand where, what the landscape"},{"startTime":2389.28,"endTime":2392.055,"body":"looks like, some simple questions"},{"startTime":2389.28,"endTime":2392.055,"body":"you can ask without knowing anything."},{"startTime":2392.105,"endTime":2392.855,"body":"What does mean?"},{"startTime":2392.855,"endTime":2395.88,"body":"The teams say do ratio, meaning"},{"startTime":2392.855,"endTime":2395.88,"body":"you said you would do this."},{"startTime":2395.88,"endTime":2396.555,"body":"What did you actually do?"},{"startTime":2396.555,"endTime":2397.23,"body":"That's a good one, right?"},{"startTime":2397.23,"endTime":2399.205,"body":"You're not actually"},{"startTime":2397.23,"endTime":2399.205,"body":"saying Y at this stage."},{"startTime":2399.33,"endTime":2401.48,"body":"That's a different conversation"},{"startTime":2399.33,"endTime":2401.48,"body":"for a different day."},{"startTime":2401.505,"endTime":2401.73,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2401.78,"endTime":2404.23,"body":"But for now, you committed"},{"startTime":2401.78,"endTime":2404.23,"body":"to X, you delivered Y."},{"startTime":2404.255,"endTime":2404.63,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2404.68,"endTime":2405.38,"body":"It's a data point."},{"startTime":2405.43,"endTime":2405.505,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2405.709,"endTime":2405.78,"body":"right?"},{"startTime":2405.88,"endTime":2406.655,"body":"What does that look like?"},{"startTime":2406.655,"endTime":2408.938,"body":"60%, 80%, whatever it is."},{"startTime":2409.28,"endTime":2410.63,"body":"It's just a data point."},{"startTime":2410.905,"endTime":2412.63,"body":"So in the Scrum Master's mind, it."},{"startTime":2413.967,"endTime":2414.242,"body":", you know?"},{"startTime":2414.292,"endTime":2414.567,"body":"Alright."},{"startTime":2414.567,"endTime":2417.417,"body":"If we're not somewhere, let's say,"},{"startTime":2414.567,"endTime":2417.417,"body":"and I'm again not gonna debate"},{"startTime":2417.417,"endTime":2419.442,"body":"this one, but 80% let's say, right?"},{"startTime":2419.467,"endTime":2419.642,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2419.767,"endTime":2423.917,"body":"Then you could ask questions like, why"},{"startTime":2419.767,"endTime":2423.917,"body":"if you're at 50, we left half of the"},{"startTime":2423.917,"endTime":2425.392,"body":"stuff we said we would do on the table."},{"startTime":2425.492,"endTime":2425.617,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2425.667,"endTime":2427.192,"body":"That's the work that"},{"startTime":2425.667,"endTime":2427.192,"body":"should have been done."},{"startTime":2427.192,"endTime":2427.367,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2427.417,"endTime":2430.692,"body":"Did we overcommit, so now you can get"},{"startTime":2427.417,"endTime":2430.692,"body":"into the RCAs of all of that stuff"},{"startTime":2430.692,"endTime":2433.792,"body":"as a scrum master and say, was there"},{"startTime":2430.692,"endTime":2433.792,"body":"lack of clarity around requirements?"},{"startTime":2433.792,"endTime":2434.117,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":2434.151,"endTime":2434.251,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2434.251,"endTime":2436.142,"body":"Do we have people out sick, for instance?"},{"startTime":2436.167,"endTime":2436.367,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2436.417,"endTime":2438.642,"body":"That was unplanned for at"},{"startTime":2436.417,"endTime":2438.642,"body":"the beginning of a sprint."},{"startTime":2438.842,"endTime":2438.967,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2438.992,"endTime":2441.242,"body":"So we just didn't have enough"},{"startTime":2438.992,"endTime":2441.242,"body":"hands on deck and all of these"},{"startTime":2441.242,"endTime":2442.692,"body":"things a scrum master can run with."},{"startTime":2442.697,"endTime":2446.367,"body":"But my point to to what you were"},{"startTime":2442.697,"endTime":2446.367,"body":"saying is this can all be displayed and"},{"startTime":2446.367,"endTime":2448.492,"body":"reported on in a quantitative manner."},{"startTime":2448.567,"endTime":2448.692,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2448.717,"endTime":2450.517,"body":"We said we would have a hundred hours."},{"startTime":2451.005,"endTime":2451.555,"body":"People time."},{"startTime":2451.605,"endTime":2452.13,"body":"Right, right."},{"startTime":2452.13,"endTime":2452.605,"body":"Team members."},{"startTime":2452.605,"endTime":2453.78,"body":"Time in a sprint."},{"startTime":2454.08,"endTime":2456.38,"body":"We ended up with 70 because"},{"startTime":2454.08,"endTime":2456.38,"body":"two people are out with covid."},{"startTime":2456.555,"endTime":2456.705,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2456.73,"endTime":2457.355,"body":"It is what it is."},{"startTime":2457.38,"endTime":2457.555,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2457.638,"endTime":2457.738,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2457.742,"endTime":2460.555,"body":"But there's something you can hang"},{"startTime":2457.742,"endTime":2460.555,"body":"your hat on and say, this is why."},{"startTime":2460.555,"endTime":2460.805,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2460.972,"endTime":2464.447,"body":"."},{"startTime":2460.972,"endTime":2464.447,"body":"So I feel like as a scrum master"},{"startTime":2464.451,"endTime":2466.222,"body":"to grips with the landscape."},{"startTime":2466.247,"endTime":2467.047,"body":"What is going on."},{"startTime":2468.622,"endTime":2472.722,"body":"The only thing is you can't do much"},{"startTime":2468.622,"endTime":2472.722,"body":"about some of those things like people"},{"startTime":2472.722,"endTime":2474.522,"body":"out or you know, the say, do ratio."},{"startTime":2474.526,"endTime":2475.072,"body":"It is what it is."},{"startTime":2475.076,"endTime":2475.922,"body":"You don't know why."},{"startTime":2476.322,"endTime":2479.897,"body":"Now you move another sprint in, or you"},{"startTime":2476.322,"endTime":2479.897,"body":"look back and say, do you have data"},{"startTime":2480.022,"endTime":2483.297,"body":"for, if you didn't have a scrum master,"},{"startTime":2480.022,"endTime":2483.297,"body":"likely that data doesn't exist, but,"},{"startTime":2483.372,"endTime":2486.547,"body":"but then just leave it alone for another"},{"startTime":2483.372,"endTime":2486.547,"body":"sprint and say two sprints in a row."},{"startTime":2486.572,"endTime":2488.472,"body":"We only did 50% of the work."},{"startTime":2488.472,"endTime":2488.522,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2488.547,"endTime":2489.222,"body":"We said we would."},{"startTime":2489.397,"endTime":2489.547,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2489.597,"endTime":2490.672,"body":"What's wrong with this picture now?"},{"startTime":2490.763,"endTime":2491.13,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2491.134,"endTime":2492.497,"body":"You can start adding value quickly."},{"startTime":2492.497,"endTime":2493.722,"body":"That's where I'm going with this, right?"},{"startTime":2493.797,"endTime":2493.897,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2493.901,"endTime":2497.322,"body":"So not having a scrum master, having"},{"startTime":2493.901,"endTime":2497.322,"body":"one within two sprints, you can really"},{"startTime":2497.322,"endTime":2499.313,"body":"start digging deep into the whys."},{"startTime":2500.005,"endTime":2500.53,"body":"I'm with you."},{"startTime":2500.555,"endTime":2503.38,"body":"but this is like the,"},{"startTime":2500.555,"endTime":2503.38,"body":"the arguing point here."},{"startTime":2504.28,"endTime":2504.88,"body":"Lights just went out."},{"startTime":2505.23,"endTime":2505.355,"body":"Oh."},{"startTime":2505.355,"endTime":2509.205,"body":"It's only in my head the, the, the arguing"},{"startTime":2505.355,"endTime":2509.205,"body":"point here is like I can have a developer"},{"startTime":2509.205,"endTime":2510.999,"body":"set all that stuff up part-time you know?"},{"startTime":2510.999,"endTime":2512.741,"body":"Yeah, you are, you are the acting"},{"startTime":2510.999,"endTime":2512.741,"body":"scrum master, and they're the"},{"startTime":2512.741,"endTime":2514.241,"body":"hands on keyboard at that point."},{"startTime":2514.241,"endTime":2516.016,"body":"If you're having a developer"},{"startTime":2514.241,"endTime":2516.016,"body":"do it, that, that's fine."},{"startTime":2516.366,"endTime":2517.341,"body":"There's nothing wrong with that."},{"startTime":2517.391,"endTime":2520.091,"body":"I'm not saying that's a, that's"},{"startTime":2517.391,"endTime":2520.091,"body":"an invalid model at all actually,"},{"startTime":2520.091,"endTime":2522.916,"body":"for kanban teams, that's what I"},{"startTime":2520.091,"endTime":2522.916,"body":"encourage the team to do, is just"},{"startTime":2522.916,"endTime":2524.491,"body":"like, you may not have a scrum master."},{"startTime":2524.841,"endTime":2526.116,"body":"You guys are your own Scrum masters."},{"startTime":2526.141,"endTime":2526.216,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2526.416,"endTime":2529.766,"body":"whether it's one developer that acts as"},{"startTime":2526.416,"endTime":2529.766,"body":"the role of a, in the role of a scrum"},{"startTime":2529.77,"endTime":2533.441,"body":"master for a month, a week, whatever"},{"startTime":2529.77,"endTime":2533.441,"body":"it is, that's for them to decide."},{"startTime":2533.666,"endTime":2534.858,"body":"Maybe they decide they're gonna just."},{"startTime":2535.666,"endTime":2536.266,"body":"go round robin."},{"startTime":2536.741,"endTime":2538.741,"body":"I would prefer that because it"},{"startTime":2536.741,"endTime":2538.741,"body":"brings the quiet people out."},{"startTime":2538.816,"endTime":2539.149,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2539.149,"endTime":2539.283,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2539.287,"endTime":2540.116,"body":"It builds their confidence."},{"startTime":2540.116,"endTime":2540.566,"body":"That's great."},{"startTime":2540.924,"endTime":2542.724,"body":"but yeah, it's not a,"},{"startTime":2540.924,"endTime":2542.724,"body":"it's not the wrong model."},{"startTime":2542.749,"endTime":2542.874,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2542.924,"endTime":2545.674,"body":"But for Scrum teams, that's"},{"startTime":2542.924,"endTime":2545.674,"body":"a different question."},{"startTime":2545.699,"endTime":2550.616,"body":"For Scrum teams that are really focused"},{"startTime":2545.699,"endTime":2550.616,"body":"on developing and delivering value, right."},{"startTime":2551.299,"endTime":2552.924,"body":"You need somebody to examine the process."},{"startTime":2553.216,"endTime":2556.116,"body":"Somebody's not deeply vested in it because"},{"startTime":2553.216,"endTime":2556.116,"body":"a lot of times you get into the arguments,"},{"startTime":2556.12,"endTime":2558.924,"body":"developers like, no, we're always gonna"},{"startTime":2556.12,"endTime":2558.924,"body":"just get it to the point where you can,"},{"startTime":2559.424,"endTime":2560.849,"body":"you can see it in Postman, you were done."},{"startTime":2561.449,"endTime":2564.549,"body":"And somebody else will go, that's"},{"startTime":2561.449,"endTime":2564.549,"body":"not really right, because the"},{"startTime":2564.549,"endTime":2565.649,"body":"customers aren't seeing it."},{"startTime":2566.099,"endTime":2566.924,"body":"It's in Postman."},{"startTime":2566.924,"endTime":2567.924,"body":"They don't use Postman."},{"startTime":2567.924,"endTime":2568.999,"body":"They're never gonna see it."},{"startTime":2569.274,"endTime":2569.574,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2569.574,"endTime":2570.324,"body":"So are we really?"},{"startTime":2571.049,"endTime":2571.674,"body":"You get this?"},{"startTime":2571.674,"endTime":2575.774,"body":"So we, where Scrum Master would come in"},{"startTime":2571.674,"endTime":2575.774,"body":"and say, let's define as a team and then"},{"startTime":2575.774,"endTime":2579.999,"body":"we can engage the product folks and go, is"},{"startTime":2575.774,"endTime":2579.999,"body":"it okay for us to call it done when it's"},{"startTime":2579.999,"endTime":2581.774,"body":"internal and you can see it in Postman?"},{"startTime":2581.774,"endTime":2583.299,"body":"Or should the customer see the value?"},{"startTime":2583.324,"endTime":2585.699,"body":"Well, this, you guys could say, well,"},{"startTime":2583.324,"endTime":2585.699,"body":"the customer has to perceive the value."},{"startTime":2585.849,"endTime":2585.974,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2586.174,"endTime":2586.499,"body":", potentially."},{"startTime":2586.533,"endTime":2586.699,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2586.799,"endTime":2589.699,"body":". And that, so now the Scrum master"},{"startTime":2586.799,"endTime":2589.699,"body":"could now help, I don't wanna say"},{"startTime":2589.699,"endTime":2592.866,"body":"enforce, but help kind of instill"},{"startTime":2589.699,"endTime":2592.866,"body":"the idea of what done looks like."},{"startTime":2592.866,"endTime":2594.033,"body":"No, it's what good looks like."},{"startTime":2594.078,"endTime":2597.32,"body":"I think of all the teams I've been on"},{"startTime":2594.078,"endTime":2597.32,"body":"that don't have a scrum master and usually"},{"startTime":2597.32,"endTime":2599.162,"body":"the, the, they have some common threads."},{"startTime":2599.395,"endTime":2601.245,"body":"One of the things you're talking"},{"startTime":2599.395,"endTime":2601.245,"body":"about is like a definition of done."},{"startTime":2601.245,"endTime":2602.845,"body":"But I also like, I want to, I wanna."},{"startTime":2603.658,"endTime":2605.483,"body":"I wanna cut into what we kind of"},{"startTime":2603.658,"endTime":2605.483,"body":"talked about, whereas like some of"},{"startTime":2605.483,"endTime":2607.133,"body":"these problems get worse as you scale."},{"startTime":2607.291,"endTime":2610.987,"body":"The problems at scale become worse"},{"startTime":2607.291,"endTime":2610.987,"body":"the larger you get because you haven't"},{"startTime":2610.987,"endTime":2612.337,"body":"solved these problems for one team."},{"startTime":2612.687,"endTime":2615.403,"body":"So the idea is if you had a scrum"},{"startTime":2612.687,"endTime":2615.403,"body":"master, they would say, well, how do"},{"startTime":2615.403,"endTime":2617.028,"body":"we know what the done column means?"},{"startTime":2617.178,"endTime":2619.828,"body":"How do we know what can be, well, how"},{"startTime":2617.178,"endTime":2619.828,"body":"do we know what to communicate has done?"},{"startTime":2619.828,"endTime":2622.753,"body":"I had a CEO one time like for, to,"},{"startTime":2619.828,"endTime":2622.753,"body":"to bring this back to experience."},{"startTime":2623.853,"endTime":2627.499,"body":"I had a CEO one time who"},{"startTime":2623.853,"endTime":2627.499,"body":"he would flip his lid."},{"startTime":2627.499,"endTime":2628.224,"body":"I was trying not to curse."},{"startTime":2628.299,"endTime":2629.499,"body":"He would flip his lid."},{"startTime":2629.937,"endTime":2633.412,"body":"If you told him something was done and"},{"startTime":2629.937,"endTime":2633.412,"body":"he couldn't go out in production and"},{"startTime":2633.412,"endTime":2635.137,"body":"click the button, he would, I love that."},{"startTime":2635.162,"endTime":2636.437,"body":"He would flip out."},{"startTime":2636.437,"endTime":2636.637,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2636.641,"endTime":2637.112,"body":"He'd be like that."},{"startTime":2637.112,"endTime":2637.537,"body":"I'm sorry."},{"startTime":2637.537,"endTime":2638.012,"body":"I love that."},{"startTime":2638.012,"endTime":2638.987,"body":"That's, I love it too."},{"startTime":2639.787,"endTime":2640.587,"body":"Where's the value?"},{"startTime":2640.587,"endTime":2641.537,"body":"You can see values."},{"startTime":2641.537,"endTime":2642.312,"body":"Let me see it."},{"startTime":2643.137,"endTime":2645.687,"body":"Show the, that's, and I, I would say"},{"startTime":2643.137,"endTime":2645.687,"body":"that's the exception to the rule like"},{"startTime":2645.862,"endTime":2648.837,"body":"that, that would be the exception to the"},{"startTime":2645.862,"endTime":2648.837,"body":"rule that from the, from the companies"},{"startTime":2648.837,"endTime":2650.162,"body":"that I have worked in the definition of."},{"startTime":2650.787,"endTime":2653.812,"body":"Doesn't have anything to do with being"},{"startTime":2650.787,"endTime":2653.812,"body":"able to go out necessarily Right."},{"startTime":2654.087,"endTime":2654.437,"body":"Test it."},{"startTime":2654.587,"endTime":2658.937,"body":"Well, I mean, the, the, like, the,"},{"startTime":2654.587,"endTime":2658.937,"body":"the connecting point for the podcast"},{"startTime":2658.987,"endTime":2665.07,"body":"for that is the scrum master would be"},{"startTime":2658.987,"endTime":2665.07,"body":"the leader on the team to reach out to"},{"startTime":2665.07,"endTime":2666.77,"body":"other stakeholders in the organization."},{"startTime":2667.103,"endTime":2670.92,"body":"One of which in, in that company I'm"},{"startTime":2667.103,"endTime":2670.92,"body":"talking about was a CEO to say, Hey,"},{"startTime":2671.645,"endTime":2673.287,"body":"what does done look like for you?"},{"startTime":2673.287,"endTime":2673.687,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2673.758,"endTime":2676.578,"body":"to kind of agree, build consensus,"},{"startTime":2673.758,"endTime":2676.578,"body":"talk to other people and if they"},{"startTime":2676.578,"endTime":2679.078,"body":"had a really strong stakeholder"},{"startTime":2676.578,"endTime":2679.078,"body":"who took a really strong stance on"},{"startTime":2679.078,"endTime":2680.528,"body":"something, they would talk to them."},{"startTime":2681.153,"endTime":2682.003,"body":"Likely one on one."},{"startTime":2682.178,"endTime":2685.062,"body":"Talk to them, figure out what their"},{"startTime":2682.178,"endTime":2685.062,"body":"perspective was and bring that back to"},{"startTime":2685.062,"endTime":2686.112,"body":"the team so the team can talk about it."},{"startTime":2686.287,"endTime":2686.587,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2686.658,"endTime":2687.462,"body":"bring that back to the team."},{"startTime":2687.612,"endTime":2690.212,"body":"Team also includes technical"},{"startTime":2687.612,"endTime":2690.212,"body":"leadership, or maybe they have to"},{"startTime":2690.212,"endTime":2692.512,"body":"bring it to the other Scrum masters"},{"startTime":2690.212,"endTime":2692.512,"body":"cause maybe it's a big program thing."},{"startTime":2692.637,"endTime":2693.387,"body":"Who knows?"},{"startTime":2693.387,"endTime":2694.112,"body":"I, I don't know."},{"startTime":2694.412,"endTime":2698.795,"body":"The point was, we, the point was we"},{"startTime":2694.412,"endTime":2698.795,"body":"didn't learn that until we said it's done."},{"startTime":2698.845,"endTime":2701.07,"body":"And the CEO tried to do it and he"},{"startTime":2698.845,"endTime":2701.07,"body":"couldn't do it, and then he called"},{"startTime":2701.07,"endTime":2703.845,"body":"somebody in his office because he was"},{"startTime":2701.07,"endTime":2703.845,"body":"like, how can you say this is done?"},{"startTime":2704.045,"endTime":2704.82,"body":"You've been communicating."},{"startTime":2704.82,"endTime":2705.245,"body":"This is done."},{"startTime":2705.37,"endTime":2709.545,"body":"Like, we could have gotten way ahead of"},{"startTime":2705.37,"endTime":2709.545,"body":"that if we had a leader who is in charge"},{"startTime":2709.545,"endTime":2711.395,"body":"of saying, what, what does done mean?"},{"startTime":2712.545,"endTime":2713.52,"body":"I would also, oh, sorry."},{"startTime":2713.645,"endTime":2716.195,"body":"No, I was just gonna say the other"},{"startTime":2713.645,"endTime":2716.195,"body":"thing too is that plays right into the"},{"startTime":2716.195,"endTime":2718.92,"body":"review and making sure they correct"},{"startTime":2716.195,"endTime":2718.92,"body":"stakeholders in the room and, and."},{"startTime":2719.32,"endTime":2720.02,"body":"And yeah."},{"startTime":2720.045,"endTime":2721.962,"body":"What's being how is that interpreted?"},{"startTime":2722.287,"endTime":2725.387,"body":"Is it a demo or are we actually"},{"startTime":2722.287,"endTime":2725.387,"body":"having stakeholders in the"},{"startTime":2725.387,"endTime":2727.387,"body":"room actually utilizing."},{"startTime":2727.899,"endTime":2731.149,"body":"What we've developed, which is"},{"startTime":2727.899,"endTime":2731.149,"body":"ideal in, in my, in my view."},{"startTime":2731.299,"endTime":2731.449,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2731.449,"endTime":2734.799,"body":"And, and not having a scrum master"},{"startTime":2731.449,"endTime":2734.799,"body":"may boil down to just doing a demo."},{"startTime":2734.874,"endTime":2735.049,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2735.449,"endTime":2738.249,"body":", having a scrum master might"},{"startTime":2735.449,"endTime":2738.249,"body":"be okay, we've done a demo."},{"startTime":2738.874,"endTime":2740.774,"body":"First of all, they've ensured"},{"startTime":2738.874,"endTime":2740.774,"body":"to your point, that the right"},{"startTime":2740.774,"endTime":2741.749,"body":"stakeholders are in the room."},{"startTime":2741.849,"endTime":2741.999,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2742.074,"endTime":2746.149,"body":"And then they ask for  explicitly"},{"startTime":2742.074,"endTime":2746.149,"body":"saying, is this good enough?"},{"startTime":2746.574,"endTime":2748.724,"body":"If it's not, where have"},{"startTime":2746.574,"endTime":2748.724,"body":"we missed the mark?"},{"startTime":2748.824,"endTime":2748.899,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2748.899,"endTime":2749.983,"body":"And solicit the feedback."},{"startTime":2749.987,"endTime":2749.999,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2750.349,"endTime":2753.374,"body":", if it is good enough, then get implicit"},{"startTime":2750.349,"endTime":2753.374,"body":"or explicit approval that that's good"},{"startTime":2753.374,"endTime":2754.624,"body":"enough so it can be marked as done."},{"startTime":2754.624,"endTime":2754.799,"body":"Done."},{"startTime":2754.799,"endTime":2754.949,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2755.299,"endTime":2756.574,"body":"Scrum Masters know how to do that."},{"startTime":2756.599,"endTime":2756.874,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2756.874,"endTime":2757.599,"body":"Teams may not."},{"startTime":2757.874,"endTime":2757.924,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2757.966,"endTime":2761.103,"body":"extending a little things like working"},{"startTime":2757.966,"endTime":2761.103,"body":"agreements, how the teams Yeah."},{"startTime":2761.303,"endTime":2763.578,"body":"Have that social contract"},{"startTime":2761.303,"endTime":2763.578,"body":"to work with one another."},{"startTime":2763.953,"endTime":2766.853,"body":"That is something that teams don't"},{"startTime":2763.953,"endTime":2766.853,"body":"naturally tend to do, is what I've found."},{"startTime":2766.858,"endTime":2769.203,"body":"It takes somebody like a scrum"},{"startTime":2766.858,"endTime":2769.203,"body":"master say, look, can we get"},{"startTime":2769.203,"endTime":2770.328,"body":"together and just talk about."},{"startTime":2770.966,"endTime":2771.316,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2771.516,"endTime":2775.266,"body":"So it's a lot of times it is"},{"startTime":2771.516,"endTime":2775.266,"body":"the soft skills, but developers"},{"startTime":2775.316,"endTime":2776.616,"body":"can they do it if they had them?"},{"startTime":2776.616,"endTime":2776.916,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2776.916,"endTime":2779.041,"body":"It's like saying anyone can split"},{"startTime":2776.916,"endTime":2779.041,"body":"the atom if they, if they had"},{"startTime":2779.041,"endTime":2780.091,"body":"the know-how, but they don't."},{"startTime":2780.095,"endTime":2780.866,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":2780.866,"endTime":2781.466,"body":"That's the point."},{"startTime":2781.516,"endTime":2784.474,"body":"I mean, they, they certainly could"},{"startTime":2781.516,"endTime":2784.474,"body":"check a checklist should one be"},{"startTime":2784.478,"endTime":2789.074,"body":"provided of like, this is your, this"},{"startTime":2784.478,"endTime":2789.074,"body":"is like, mm, this is your prescription."},{"startTime":2789.074,"endTime":2790.599,"body":"You, you must fill out Z form."},{"startTime":2790.699,"endTime":2793.674,"body":"Like, but like nobody's, like,"},{"startTime":2790.699,"endTime":2793.674,"body":"that's like taboo to say like,"},{"startTime":2793.849,"endTime":2796.224,"body":"oh, in order to do scrum, like I'm"},{"startTime":2793.849,"endTime":2796.224,"body":"gonna write you your prescription,"},{"startTime":2796.224,"endTime":2797.174,"body":"you gotta check all the boxes."},{"startTime":2797.174,"endTime":2798.924,"body":"Like, people shy away from doing that."},{"startTime":2799.174,"endTime":2803.699,"body":"But like, but I feel like if you are"},{"startTime":2799.174,"endTime":2803.699,"body":"not a professional scrum master and you"},{"startTime":2803.699,"endTime":2806.649,"body":"don't really wanna be one and you're"},{"startTime":2803.699,"endTime":2806.649,"body":"just ticking boxes to do the bare"},{"startTime":2806.649,"endTime":2810.199,"body":"minimum of what you can do while you're"},{"startTime":2806.649,"endTime":2810.199,"body":"assigned that role part-time while,"},{"startTime":2810.199,"endTime":2813.599,"body":"while full-time, you're trying to knock"},{"startTime":2810.199,"endTime":2813.599,"body":"out your development deliverables that"},{"startTime":2813.808,"endTime":2816.099,"body":"are assigned to you in that environment."},{"startTime":2816.333,"endTime":2818.353,"body":"Hey is, is is a checklist so bad?"},{"startTime":2818.503,"endTime":2818.728,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2818.778,"endTime":2819.328,"body":"It really is."},{"startTime":2819.328,"endTime":2823.053,"body":"Becomes zombie scrum and then to my"},{"startTime":2819.328,"endTime":2823.053,"body":"point and like, yeah, to, to my point"},{"startTime":2823.058,"endTime":2826.812,"body":"for all the hate mail that's already on"},{"startTime":2823.058,"endTime":2826.812,"body":"its way to me that that would be the,"},{"startTime":2826.812,"endTime":2831.137,"body":"the ex that, that would be kind of the"},{"startTime":2826.812,"endTime":2831.137,"body":"bar that I think I would be set is, is a,"},{"startTime":2831.312,"endTime":2834.387,"body":"any scrum master, even a part-time scrum"},{"startTime":2831.312,"endTime":2834.387,"body":"master is better than no scrum master."},{"startTime":2834.662,"endTime":2839.953,"body":"And then understanding that that it, it,"},{"startTime":2834.662,"endTime":2839.953,"body":"it literally is just probably going to be"},{"startTime":2839.953,"endTime":2841.928,"body":"this zombie scrum, check the box kind of."},{"startTime":2841.928,"endTime":2846.924,"body":"But I think my thought process there"},{"startTime":2841.928,"endTime":2846.924,"body":"is that would be a very temporary"},{"startTime":2847.283,"endTime":2850.158,"body":"being, being optimistic is that"},{"startTime":2847.283,"endTime":2850.158,"body":"would be the very temporary solution"},{"startTime":2850.158,"endTime":2855.937,"body":"that at least we are socializing the"},{"startTime":2850.158,"endTime":2855.937,"body":"nomenclature getting accustomed To the"},{"startTime":2855.937,"endTime":2859.787,"body":"accountabilities and to the events and"},{"startTime":2855.937,"endTime":2859.787,"body":"those things so, so all of those things"},{"startTime":2859.787,"endTime":2864.912,"body":"are being, are being circulated and"},{"startTime":2859.787,"endTime":2864.912,"body":"we are also realizing, hopefully the"},{"startTime":2864.912,"endTime":2868.037,"body":"benefit of having that singular role."},{"startTime":2868.083,"endTime":2870.933,"body":"These checklists that we speak of"},{"startTime":2868.083,"endTime":2870.933,"body":"though, they, they really are dynamic."},{"startTime":2870.933,"endTime":2872.083,"body":"They change for every team."},{"startTime":2872.083,"endTime":2873.458,"body":"Cuz every team is unique, right?"},{"startTime":2873.608,"endTime":2873.783,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2873.983,"endTime":2874.774,"body":", so they, the."},{"startTime":2875.308,"endTime":2877.883,"body":"Providing a checklist to a team"},{"startTime":2875.308,"endTime":2877.883,"body":"is a nonstarter to begin with"},{"startTime":2877.883,"endTime":2878.783,"body":"because they may not fit them."},{"startTime":2879.083,"endTime":2879.708,"body":"They may just say this."},{"startTime":2879.708,"endTime":2881.574,"body":"Yeah, I think na, na, na."},{"startTime":2881.578,"endTime":2881.608,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2881.758,"endTime":2884.541,"body":"So I think I think I've"},{"startTime":2881.758,"endTime":2884.541,"body":"learned immoral to this story."},{"startTime":2885.641,"endTime":2890.416,"body":"Life sucks without a scrum master . Oh,"},{"startTime":2885.641,"endTime":2890.416,"body":"I hope that's not the, I hope that's"},{"startTime":2890.42,"endTime":2891.391,"body":"not the takeaway from this podcast."},{"startTime":2891.516,"endTime":2894.541,"body":"The thing they tell people normally"},{"startTime":2891.516,"endTime":2894.541,"body":"is like, oh, you're a scrum master."},{"startTime":2894.941,"endTime":2899.366,"body":"Or an agile coach, your your job"},{"startTime":2894.941,"endTime":2899.366,"body":"is to work yourself out of a job"},{"startTime":2899.616,"endTime":2902.691,"body":"and no team members will ever change on"},{"startTime":2899.616,"endTime":2902.691,"body":"the team and everything will be great."},{"startTime":2902.691,"endTime":2904.916,"body":"And they'll never add anybody new and"},{"startTime":2902.691,"endTime":2904.916,"body":"everything will say exactly the same"},{"startTime":2904.916,"endTime":2906.341,"body":"and they'll never need to improve."},{"startTime":2906.341,"endTime":2907.266,"body":"And they'll never backside ever."},{"startTime":2907.516,"endTime":2909.191,"body":"How many lies were there"},{"startTime":2907.516,"endTime":2909.191,"body":"to the nearest dozen?"},{"startTime":2909.266,"endTime":2909.516,"body":"A lot."},{"startTime":2910.366,"endTime":2910.666,"body":"A lot."},{"startTime":2910.816,"endTime":2912.991,"body":"So I've heard, I don't think I've ever"},{"startTime":2910.816,"endTime":2912.991,"body":"heard a scrum master that didn't say,"},{"startTime":2912.991,"endTime":2914.691,"body":"my job is to work myself out of a job."},{"startTime":2914.842,"endTime":2916.192,"body":". , were they trying to sell you a book?"},{"startTime":2916.542,"endTime":2916.642,"body":"? Yeah."},{"startTime":2916.642,"endTime":2917.717,"body":"That's what, that's, yeah, maybe."},{"startTime":2917.942,"endTime":2918.192,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2918.292,"endTime":2920.267,"body":"But, but although I've never, yeah."},{"startTime":2921.642,"endTime":2921.967,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2922.008,"endTime":2925.55,"body":"That said, given all the points that you"},{"startTime":2922.008,"endTime":2925.55,"body":"just said, I could probably make up some"},{"startTime":2925.625,"endTime":2931.65,"body":"really crazy scenario that potentially a"},{"startTime":2925.625,"endTime":2931.65,"body":"scrum master could work themselves out of"},{"startTime":2931.65,"endTime":2935.075,"body":"a job if nobody ever quit, died, retire."},{"startTime":2935.837,"endTime":2937.012,"body":"The work never changed."},{"startTime":2937.054,"endTime":2940.562,"body":"I could see a future where you"},{"startTime":2937.054,"endTime":2940.562,"body":"work yourself out of a job as a"},{"startTime":2940.567,"endTime":2943.304,"body":"person who is full-time dedicated"},{"startTime":2940.567,"endTime":2943.304,"body":"to doing this as a profession."},{"startTime":2943.304,"endTime":2946.154,"body":"Now, if we pivot back into, like, my"},{"startTime":2943.304,"endTime":2946.154,"body":"organization never had a scrum master."},{"startTime":2946.158,"endTime":2946.229,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"startTime":2946.567,"endTime":2949.004,"body":". So how is your person gonna"},{"startTime":2946.567,"endTime":2949.004,"body":"work themselves out of a job?"},{"startTime":2949.492,"endTime":2952.367,"body":"When you're sharing the job and"},{"startTime":2949.492,"endTime":2952.367,"body":"doing it partially part-time,"},{"startTime":2952.367,"endTime":2953.992,"body":"like, I, I can't, yeah, I, like, I,"},{"startTime":2954.317,"endTime":2958.492,"body":"I just don't see anybody who's"},{"startTime":2954.317,"endTime":2958.492,"body":"doing a job partially part-time"},{"startTime":2958.792,"endTime":2960.417,"body":"working themselves out of a job."},{"startTime":2960.417,"endTime":2964.642,"body":"I see more likely is someone starts doing"},{"startTime":2960.417,"endTime":2964.642,"body":"it, realize they like it and they want"},{"startTime":2964.646,"endTime":2966.517,"body":"to transition their whole job to do it."},{"startTime":2966.517,"endTime":2967.492,"body":"I've seen that with developers."},{"startTime":2967.496,"endTime":2970.171,"body":"They're like, Hey, I really"},{"startTime":2967.496,"endTime":2970.171,"body":"enjoy coordinating across"},{"startTime":2970.171,"endTime":2971.771,"body":"departments, across teams."},{"startTime":2971.896,"endTime":2974.921,"body":"Having one-on-ones with people,"},{"startTime":2971.896,"endTime":2974.921,"body":"introducing the new ideas, going out and"},{"startTime":2974.921,"endTime":2977.871,"body":"finding new ideas and bringing into the,"},{"startTime":2974.921,"endTime":2977.871,"body":"going and reading a book and bringing"},{"startTime":2977.871,"endTime":2982.421,"body":"that idea into the team and turning a, a"},{"startTime":2977.871,"endTime":2982.421,"body":"theory into concept, into actualization"},{"startTime":2982.425,"endTime":2983.596,"body":"and into a process or whatever."},{"startTime":2983.746,"endTime":2984.371,"body":"I like doing that."},{"startTime":2984.375,"endTime":2986.396,"body":"I wanna be a scrum master"},{"startTime":2984.375,"endTime":2986.396,"body":"fulltime and then transition."},{"startTime":2986.396,"endTime":2987.796,"body":"Same with QA people, stuff like that."},{"startTime":2988.079,"endTime":2989.579,"body":"I'll wrap this diatribe in."},{"startTime":2989.979,"endTime":2995.087,"body":"I've never seen a scrum master or an"},{"startTime":2989.979,"endTime":2995.087,"body":"agile coach in any of my companies who has"},{"startTime":2995.237,"endTime":2997.662,"body":"worked themselves out of a job where it's"},{"startTime":2995.237,"endTime":2997.662,"body":"like, Hey, team doesn't need you anymore."},{"startTime":2997.662,"endTime":2998.637,"body":"Time to move on to another team."},{"startTime":2998.796,"endTime":3001.667,"body":"There are underlying assumptions"},{"startTime":2998.796,"endTime":3001.667,"body":"there, which is we've reached nirvana,"},{"startTime":3001.692,"endTime":3002.892,"body":"we don't need to improve anymore."},{"startTime":3003.15,"endTime":3004.4,"body":"And everybody agrees on that."},{"startTime":3005.075,"endTime":3006.5,"body":"That's never happened in my experience."},{"startTime":3006.5,"endTime":3006.975,"body":"That's one."},{"startTime":3007.15,"endTime":3009.542,"body":"The other is you're assuming"},{"startTime":3007.15,"endTime":3009.542,"body":"that the customer's needs."},{"startTime":3009.987,"endTime":3010.712,"body":"Remain static."},{"startTime":3010.754,"endTime":3011.154,"body":"We're done."},{"startTime":3011.179,"endTime":3012.479,"body":"That's our product line defined."},{"startTime":3012.787,"endTime":3015.062,"body":"And then the third thing is,"},{"startTime":3012.787,"endTime":3015.062,"body":"I think you touched on it."},{"startTime":3015.067,"endTime":3015.987,"body":"Leadership doesn't change."},{"startTime":3016.037,"endTime":3018.312,"body":"Leadership isn't constant, as we all know."},{"startTime":3018.587,"endTime":3021.771,"body":"And what happens typically the"},{"startTime":3018.587,"endTime":3021.771,"body":"higher the leadership you go from"},{"startTime":3021.771,"endTime":3023.171,"body":"directors to C level, whatever."},{"startTime":3023.696,"endTime":3028.946,"body":"The more the change, meaning you get"},{"startTime":3023.696,"endTime":3028.946,"body":"one person leaving a CXO role and a"},{"startTime":3028.946,"endTime":3031.746,"body":"new person comes in, but they don't"},{"startTime":3028.946,"endTime":3031.746,"body":"come in by themselves typically."},{"startTime":3031.746,"endTime":3033.771,"body":"They bring in their posse"},{"startTime":3031.746,"endTime":3033.771,"body":"from the place they just left."},{"startTime":3034.146,"endTime":3037.821,"body":"So all of those things aren't"},{"startTime":3034.146,"endTime":3037.821,"body":"a given, which means you need"},{"startTime":3037.821,"endTime":3039.131,"body":"a scrum master . All right."},{"startTime":3039.956,"endTime":3040.156,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3040.156,"endTime":3042.806,"body":"I mean, life without a Scrum master sucks."},{"startTime":3042.906,"endTime":3043.406,"body":"Sucks."},{"startTime":3043.674,"endTime":3045.299,"body":"Let us know what you think down below."},{"startTime":3045.349,"endTime":3046.299,"body":"We'd love to hear from you."},{"startTime":3046.345,"endTime":3048.42,"body":"and also let us know what else"},{"startTime":3046.345,"endTime":3048.42,"body":"you'd like us to talk about."},{"startTime":3048.595,"endTime":3051.37,"body":"some people put the subscription"},{"startTime":3048.595,"endTime":3051.37,"body":"thing in the bottom and some"},{"startTime":3051.37,"endTime":3052.095,"body":"people put it at the top."},{"startTime":3052.095,"endTime":3053.345,"body":"I put it in the right,"},{"startTime":3052.095,"endTime":3053.345,"body":"right in the middle."},{"startTime":3053.428,"endTime":3054.378,"body":"Right over my face."},{"startTime":3054.961,"endTime":3056.078,"body":"We don't smash the like button."},{"startTime":3056.078,"endTime":3057.166,"body":"We smash Brian's face."}]}