{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":0.043,"endTime":4.739,"body":"So let's have a session about"},{"startTime":0.043,"endTime":4.739,"body":"advocating agile on arguing agile."},{"startTime":4.824,"endTime":6.323,"body":"What is being a good advocate?"},{"startTime":6.323,"endTime":7.519,"body":"For Agile look like?"},{"startTime":7.519,"endTime":8.38,"body":"And what does it mean to you?"},{"startTime":8.475,"endTime":12.909,"body":"It, to me, it means looking at"},{"startTime":8.475,"endTime":12.909,"body":"ways of working, forget the,"},{"startTime":12.909,"endTime":14.214,"body":"a word for a minute, right?"},{"startTime":14.266,"endTime":17.84,"body":"looking at ways of working a word that"},{"startTime":14.266,"endTime":17.84,"body":"they, the agile word, the agile word"},{"startTime":17.944,"endTime":19.431,"body":"got lead a, a word drawn around here."},{"startTime":19.435,"endTime":20.292,"body":"Lots of, lots of a words."},{"startTime":20.553,"endTime":22.379,"body":"Just say how people are"},{"startTime":20.553,"endTime":22.379,"body":"working in a complex."},{"startTime":23.292,"endTime":28.249,"body":"If you don't have a complex environment"},{"startTime":23.292,"endTime":28.249,"body":"where there are multiple factors"},{"startTime":28.249,"endTime":31.518,"body":"that would,  that would be at play"},{"startTime":28.249,"endTime":31.518,"body":"for you to achieve an outcome."},{"startTime":32.483,"endTime":35.327,"body":"You don't have to be agile, you can"},{"startTime":32.483,"endTime":35.327,"body":"forecast things and you could pretty"},{"startTime":35.327,"endTime":38.092,"body":"much track close to the forecast"},{"startTime":35.327,"endTime":38.092,"body":"because things are fairly cut and dry"},{"startTime":38.17,"endTime":40.901,"body":"and not complex,  not unpredictable,"},{"startTime":41.683,"endTime":45.466,"body":"but for the most part, most"},{"startTime":41.683,"endTime":45.466,"body":"work is complex these days and"},{"startTime":45.466,"endTime":46.666,"body":"not just software development."},{"startTime":46.744,"endTime":50.527,"body":"So forecasting ahead of time,"},{"startTime":46.744,"endTime":50.527,"body":"many months ahead, that really"},{"startTime":50.527,"endTime":52.535,"body":"hasn't born fruit over the years."},{"startTime":52.927,"endTime":57.309,"body":"So really what we're saying is why don't"},{"startTime":52.927,"endTime":57.309,"body":"we pivot from that old way of working"},{"startTime":57.622,"endTime":61.431,"body":"learn just enough and then project out"},{"startTime":57.622,"endTime":61.431,"body":"a little more, try a few things out,"},{"startTime":61.431,"endTime":63.022,"body":"learn just enough and keep doing that."},{"startTime":63.596,"endTime":64.457,"body":"That's agile."},{"startTime":64.509,"endTime":67.979,"body":"So that's the way we're advocating agile"},{"startTime":64.509,"endTime":67.979,"body":"is not just software development, but."},{"startTime":68.214,"endTime":68.24,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":69.022,"endTime":70.431,"body":"Just do enough planning."},{"startTime":70.614,"endTime":70.866,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":71.292,"endTime":72.153,"body":"And then try things out."},{"startTime":72.857,"endTime":73.066,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":73.666,"endTime":74.005,"body":"What do you think?"},{"startTime":74.814,"endTime":75.205,"body":"I think"},{"startTime":75.205,"endTime":81.51,"body":"that to advocate for agile, it almost"},{"startTime":75.205,"endTime":81.51,"body":"inherently leads you to some extent and"},{"startTime":81.514,"endTime":85.918,"body":"this may be a strong word to use for"},{"startTime":81.514,"endTime":85.918,"body":"instance, in an organization, but to"},{"startTime":85.97,"endTime":90.994,"body":"argue agile or certainly to defend it,"},{"startTime":85.97,"endTime":90.994,"body":"explain it you need to be able to define,"},{"startTime":91.046,"endTime":92.742,"body":"what problems are we trying to solve?"},{"startTime":93.342,"endTime":93.603,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":93.603,"endTime":96.994,"body":"Are we doing them already"},{"startTime":93.603,"endTime":96.994,"body":"in an efficient way?"},{"startTime":97.359,"endTime":98.429,"body":"Are we meeting our needs?"},{"startTime":98.429,"endTime":100.281,"body":"Are we meeting our budget?"},{"startTime":100.285,"endTime":103.359,"body":"Are we getting things out"},{"startTime":100.285,"endTime":103.359,"body":"appropriately on time and with"},{"startTime":103.359,"endTime":106.229,"body":"great quality to our customers"},{"startTime":103.359,"endTime":106.229,"body":"using whatever methods we're using."},{"startTime":106.542,"endTime":108.524,"body":"If the answer is yes to"},{"startTime":106.542,"endTime":108.524,"body":"that, well, then we don't."},{"startTime":108.811,"endTime":116.82,"body":"Need to argue or advocate for anything,"},{"startTime":108.811,"endTime":116.82,"body":"but what we find oftentimes most times,"},{"startTime":116.82,"endTime":120.89,"body":"particularly in software, but now we're"},{"startTime":116.82,"endTime":120.89,"body":"finding in far many more industries,"},{"startTime":120.894,"endTime":125.411,"body":"is that the traditional way of doing"},{"startTime":120.894,"endTime":125.411,"body":"things where we're thinking we need to do"},{"startTime":125.411,"endTime":132.22,"body":"these long term plans, very segregated,"},{"startTime":125.411,"endTime":132.22,"body":"siloed, lots of handoffs dependencies."},{"startTime":132.272,"endTime":133.498,"body":"And we're saying, you know what?"},{"startTime":133.498,"endTime":134.646,"body":"This isn't efficient."},{"startTime":134.881,"endTime":136.811,"body":"It, it is less than effective."},{"startTime":136.837,"endTime":139.055,"body":"It's costing us a lot of money."},{"startTime":139.055,"endTime":142.811,"body":"And at the end of the, at the end"},{"startTime":139.055,"endTime":142.811,"body":"of it, we are really not getting"},{"startTime":143.098,"endTime":146.203,"body":"a quality product or one that"},{"startTime":143.098,"endTime":146.203,"body":"our customers are satisfied with."},{"startTime":146.207,"endTime":149.855,"body":"And if any of those things are"},{"startTime":146.207,"endTime":149.855,"body":"true for you, then it's time"},{"startTime":150.037,"endTime":152.385,"body":"to start advocating for agile."},{"startTime":152.711,"endTime":155.216,"body":"So there was a podcast we did"},{"startTime":152.711,"endTime":155.216,"body":"a long, long time ago where we"},{"startTime":155.216,"endTime":159.137,"body":"said, , speed and effectiveness may"},{"startTime":155.216,"endTime":159.137,"body":"not be what your company's going for."},{"startTime":159.346,"endTime":161.981,"body":"Let's say you join a company as a scrum"},{"startTime":159.346,"endTime":161.981,"body":"master only because that's the easiest"},{"startTime":161.981,"endTime":163.416,"body":"example that, that I could give here."},{"startTime":163.833,"endTime":166.755,"body":"You join a company and maybe you"},{"startTime":163.833,"endTime":166.755,"body":"have some Scrum certifications and"},{"startTime":166.755,"endTime":169.233,"body":"experience, and nobody else in the"},{"startTime":166.755,"endTime":169.233,"body":"org has any experience or came from"},{"startTime":169.237,"endTime":170.52,"body":"companies that practice Agile now."},{"startTime":170.933,"endTime":175.077,"body":"Wouldn't you be the default advocate in"},{"startTime":170.933,"endTime":175.077,"body":"situations like that where the situation"},{"startTime":175.077,"endTime":177.972,"body":"where you've been trained, wouldn't it"},{"startTime":175.077,"endTime":177.972,"body":"be up to you to do things like build"},{"startTime":177.972,"endTime":179.981,"body":"consensus and raise awareness, cheerlead?"},{"startTime":180.071,"endTime":181.01,"body":"all of the above really"},{"startTime":181.053,"endTime":184.627,"body":"If the organization is already"},{"startTime":181.053,"endTime":184.627,"body":"delivering well to their"},{"startTime":184.688,"endTime":187.036,"body":"strategic objectives, then great."},{"startTime":187.349,"endTime":187.662,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":188.131,"endTime":191.027,"body":"You don't have a problem what's worth"},{"startTime":188.131,"endTime":191.027,"body":"solving here, but, but if they're not,"},{"startTime":191.105,"endTime":194.662,"body":"then you could look at that and say, how"},{"startTime":191.105,"endTime":194.662,"body":"can we how can we influence the process"},{"startTime":195.444,"endTime":197.536,"body":"to attain a, a more optimal outcome?"},{"startTime":197.875,"endTime":200.718,"body":"And you start peeling away"},{"startTime":197.875,"endTime":200.718,"body":"at the existing processes."},{"startTime":200.771,"endTime":205.218,"body":"And you're finding, you'll probably"},{"startTime":200.771,"endTime":205.218,"body":"find I would posit that you are peeling"},{"startTime":205.218,"endTime":210.618,"body":"away pieces of the current process that"},{"startTime":205.218,"endTime":210.618,"body":"are largely waterfall type oriented,"},{"startTime":211.01,"endTime":215.105,"body":"where we are doing lots of activity, a"},{"startTime":211.01,"endTime":215.105,"body":"hand off to B hand off to C, et cetera."},{"startTime":216.123,"endTime":219.227,"body":"I agree, but only in a case"},{"startTime":216.123,"endTime":219.227,"body":"where they, they are satisfied"},{"startTime":219.357,"endTime":220.349,"body":"with the way that things are."},{"startTime":220.61,"endTime":224.236,"body":"I think of the companies that I've"},{"startTime":220.61,"endTime":224.236,"body":"been at, where management lets it"},{"startTime":224.236,"endTime":227.236,"body":"be known that if every person on the"},{"startTime":224.236,"endTime":227.236,"body":"team's not a hundred percent utilize,"},{"startTime":227.731,"endTime":231.279,"body":"They, they meaning the company is"},{"startTime":227.731,"endTime":231.279,"body":"somehow being cheated out of money."},{"startTime":231.801,"endTime":234.74,"body":"So management spends a considerable,"},{"startTime":231.801,"endTime":234.74,"body":", amount of time and effort making"},{"startTime":234.74,"endTime":238.575,"body":"themselves confident that everyone"},{"startTime":234.74,"endTime":238.575,"body":"has enough work, and as soon as the"},{"startTime":238.575,"endTime":240.818,"body":"person is done with the work, they're"},{"startTime":238.575,"endTime":240.818,"body":"handed the next work item, and then"},{"startTime":240.818,"endTime":244.749,"body":"nobody ever has idle time and the"},{"startTime":240.818,"endTime":244.749,"body":"assembly line is efficient as possible."},{"startTime":245.023,"endTime":249.144,"body":"So make, making the most effective"},{"startTime":245.023,"endTime":249.144,"body":"product and making an impact to customers,"},{"startTime":249.431,"endTime":251.91,"body":"that's not what management's focus is"},{"startTime":252.092,"endTime":255.457,"body":"I'm trying to illustrate that the"},{"startTime":252.092,"endTime":255.457,"body":"things that management is measuring,"},{"startTime":256.084,"endTime":259.605,"body":", they're spending less time focusing"},{"startTime":256.084,"endTime":259.605,"body":"on whether the customer is happy and"},{"startTime":259.61,"endTime":263.492,"body":"more time, making sure to squeeze"},{"startTime":259.61,"endTime":263.492,"body":"their developers to make sure they"},{"startTime":263.492,"endTime":266.857,"body":"aren't, , , secretly working 39.5"},{"startTime":263.492,"endTime":266.857,"body":"hours rather than 40 hours or whatever"},{"startTime":267.831,"endTime":272.249,"body":"I think the part of the difficulty is"},{"startTime":267.831,"endTime":272.249,"body":"there's a perceived sense of control in"},{"startTime":272.249,"endTime":273.605,"body":"that environment that they're seeking."},{"startTime":273.944,"endTime":274.257,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":274.257,"endTime":278.092,"body":"So when they say, well, we have"},{"startTime":274.257,"endTime":278.092,"body":"to justify a headcount of X, then,"},{"startTime":278.118,"endTime":279.266,"body":"then they have to justify that."},{"startTime":279.266,"endTime":279.501,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":279.501,"endTime":282.005,"body":"And so they say, well, we're"},{"startTime":279.501,"endTime":282.005,"body":"keeping people busy, we've got"},{"startTime":282.005,"endTime":284.118,"body":"an average utilization of 75%."},{"startTime":284.249,"endTime":284.327,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":284.327,"endTime":285.423,"body":"And the question is, why isn't it?"},{"startTime":285.423,"endTime":286.153,"body":"85%."},{"startTime":286.518,"endTime":289.771,"body":"So so then yes, down comes the"},{"startTime":286.518,"endTime":289.771,"body":"pressure to do more and more and more."},{"startTime":290.227,"endTime":293.931,"body":"But make busy work,  it, it's not it's"},{"startTime":290.227,"endTime":293.931,"body":"output is what they're looking for here."},{"startTime":294.166,"endTime":297.427,"body":"I was once in a position where"},{"startTime":294.166,"endTime":297.427,"body":"a, a change to the culture."},{"startTime":297.818,"endTime":301.74,"body":"It all came from one discussion between,"},{"startTime":297.818,"endTime":301.74,"body":", a senior manager in that organization"},{"startTime":301.74,"endTime":304.914,"body":"or like a director in that organization"},{"startTime":301.74,"endTime":304.914,"body":"and, a C-level executive and the."},{"startTime":305.71,"endTime":307.301,"body":"The conversation went like this."},{"startTime":307.301,"endTime":309.44,"body":"The senior manager says, Hey,"},{"startTime":307.301,"endTime":309.44,"body":"my department's doing great."},{"startTime":309.518,"endTime":311.214,"body":"We're all on track with our"},{"startTime":309.518,"endTime":311.214,"body":"forecast according to our"},{"startTime":311.214,"endTime":312.153,"body":"normal capacity and whatnot."},{"startTime":312.153,"endTime":313.744,"body":"And the C level, I think this was a cfo."},{"startTime":313.797,"endTime":316.327,"body":"He says, okay, well what's your"},{"startTime":313.797,"endTime":316.327,"body":"normal capacity per employee?"},{"startTime":316.562,"endTime":318.727,"body":"And the senior manager said,"},{"startTime":316.562,"endTime":318.727,"body":"well, we plan for a utilization"},{"startTime":318.727,"endTime":320.71,"body":"during our sprints for 6.5 hours."},{"startTime":321.279,"endTime":322.766,"body":"Per day per developer."},{"startTime":323.105,"endTime":325.271,"body":"And of course the CFO was like 6.5 hours."},{"startTime":325.271,"endTime":326.575,"body":"I'm like, there's eight hours in a day."},{"startTime":326.575,"endTime":327.566,"body":"Why only 6.5?"},{"startTime":327.566,"endTime":328.584,"body":"Why not 7.5?"},{"startTime":328.766,"endTime":331.114,"body":"Because you know's some things come up"},{"startTime":328.766,"endTime":331.114,"body":"and people gotta get up in their seat."},{"startTime":331.166,"endTime":332.262,"body":"7.5 sounds good."},{"startTime":332.262,"endTime":332.549,"body":"Right?"},{"startTime":332.553,"endTime":335.731,"body":"And the senior manager completely folded"},{"startTime":332.553,"endTime":335.731,"body":"and said, yes, sir, whatever you say."},{"startTime":335.992,"endTime":339.784,"body":"And, , that, that, that basically is the"},{"startTime":335.992,"endTime":339.784,"body":"story of how that, , shop went from like"},{"startTime":339.784,"endTime":342.601,"body":"sustainable development to like grindhouse"},{"startTime":339.784,"endTime":342.601,"body":"development basically overnight."},{"startTime":342.844,"endTime":345.147,"body":"Because the, if the, because the manager."},{"startTime":346.038,"endTime":350.473,"body":"Story, if we're gonna take this back"},{"startTime":346.038,"endTime":350.473,"body":"to agile principles, like he, he or"},{"startTime":350.473,"endTime":352.809,"body":"she could have been anyone, , did"},{"startTime":350.473,"endTime":352.809,"body":"not have the courage to stand"},{"startTime":352.809,"endTime":356.174,"body":"up, , and, and basically fold it"},{"startTime":352.809,"endTime":356.174,"body":"immediately when they were challenged."},{"startTime":356.27,"endTime":359.792,"body":"So, th this, the person in this real"},{"startTime":356.27,"endTime":359.792,"body":"example, didn't have the courage to"},{"startTime":359.796,"endTime":362.913,"body":"raise and question leadership, , in the,"},{"startTime":359.796,"endTime":362.913,"body":"in the conversation when it mattered,"},{"startTime":363.006,"endTime":365.441,"body":"but the VPs feel like, okay,"},{"startTime":363.006,"endTime":365.441,"body":"look, look what I've just done."},{"startTime":365.441,"endTime":368.032,"body":"I've increased efficiency by 10%."},{"startTime":368.163,"endTime":368.45,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":368.45,"endTime":369.728,"body":"And that's the message up on high."},{"startTime":369.732,"endTime":370.883,"body":"This is why we're"},{"startTime":369.732,"endTime":370.883,"body":"talking about this topic."},{"startTime":370.944,"endTime":373.553,"body":"I know we're starting, I know we're"},{"startTime":370.944,"endTime":373.553,"body":"kind of starting this conversation at"},{"startTime":373.553,"endTime":376.792,"body":"a low point where you're with a company"},{"startTime":373.553,"endTime":376.792,"body":"that says, why should we be agile?"},{"startTime":376.792,"endTime":377.6,"body":"Everything's working fine."},{"startTime":378.116,"endTime":379.473,"body":"But that's what a lot of"},{"startTime":378.116,"endTime":379.473,"body":"companies start though."},{"startTime":379.473,"endTime":379.681,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":379.916,"endTime":380.516,"body":"We've done at home."},{"startTime":380.568,"endTime":383.333,"body":"I know, but that's so yeah, to that point,"},{"startTime":380.568,"endTime":383.333,"body":"that's where a lot of companies start."},{"startTime":383.333,"endTime":384.638,"body":"Why do we want change?"},{"startTime":384.768,"endTime":385.446,"body":"We're doing fine."},{"startTime":385.786,"endTime":386.099,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":386.438,"endTime":390.038,"body":"And before you know, it they're in that"},{"startTime":386.438,"endTime":390.038,"body":"same graveyard as  Kamart and Sears."},{"startTime":390.125,"endTime":390.49,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":390.49,"endTime":391.951,"body":"And then before you know"},{"startTime":390.49,"endTime":391.951,"body":"it, you're blockbuster"},{"startTime":391.984,"endTime":392.193,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":392.197,"endTime":392.549,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":392.706,"endTime":393.132,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":393.645,"endTime":393.879,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":394.088,"endTime":394.506,"body":"I have a couple"},{"startTime":394.506,"endTime":394.897,"body":"of points."},{"startTime":394.94,"endTime":398.906,"body":"I learned this actually in nursing"},{"startTime":394.94,"endTime":398.906,"body":"school and, and it's, it's funny."},{"startTime":399.479,"endTime":405.14,"body":"The alignment that I see across different"},{"startTime":399.479,"endTime":405.14,"body":"methodologies, regardless of industry"},{"startTime":405.14,"endTime":410.175,"body":"inside or outside of agile software"},{"startTime":405.14,"endTime":410.175,"body":"development makes no difference that"},{"startTime":410.227,"endTime":415.158,"body":"I see the scientific method just"},{"startTime":410.227,"endTime":415.158,"body":"being reexplained or redefined or"},{"startTime":415.162,"endTime":416.879,"body":"renamed over and over and over again."},{"startTime":417.114,"endTime":420.793,"body":"So in nursing, we had"},{"startTime":417.114,"endTime":420.793,"body":"our, our nursing process."},{"startTime":421.327,"endTime":425.006,"body":"Where we would evaluate the patient,"},{"startTime":421.327,"endTime":425.006,"body":"make some kind of a diagnosis."},{"startTime":425.01,"endTime":428.162,"body":"Then we would do some kind of a treatment"},{"startTime":425.01,"endTime":428.162,"body":"or an intervention of some type."},{"startTime":428.266,"endTime":431.423,"body":"And then we would reevaluate"},{"startTime":428.266,"endTime":431.423,"body":"sound familiar spec to that."},{"startTime":432.075,"endTime":432.388,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":432.701,"endTime":434.814,"body":"Say, Hey, I mean, and, but"},{"startTime":432.701,"endTime":434.814,"body":"we see that, oh, that's the,"},{"startTime":434.919,"endTime":436.093,"body":"that's the scientific process."},{"startTime":436.093,"endTime":436.588,"body":"It literally is."},{"startTime":436.588,"endTime":437.632,"body":"And that's what agile is."},{"startTime":437.632,"endTime":440.553,"body":"I mean, like that's, it's literally is"},{"startTime":437.632,"endTime":440.553,"body":"the same thing, but we see this in so"},{"startTime":440.553,"endTime":444.119,"body":"many different so many different types"},{"startTime":440.553,"endTime":444.119,"body":"of work and, and things in general in"},{"startTime":444.119,"endTime":448.057,"body":"life, we would be see this when we're"},{"startTime":444.119,"endTime":448.057,"body":"making food, when making a recipe, right."},{"startTime":448.317,"endTime":450.431,"body":"I like where you're going and I"},{"startTime":448.317,"endTime":450.431,"body":"don't want to interrupt your flow."},{"startTime":450.596,"endTime":453.448,"body":", but I have to because I have a funny"},{"startTime":450.596,"endTime":453.448,"body":"allegory, , to what you're bringing up."},{"startTime":453.735,"endTime":456.552,"body":","},{"startTime":453.735,"endTime":456.552,"body":"What I'm used to seeing in software"},{"startTime":456.552,"endTime":459.5,"body":"I guess is the equivalent of a random"},{"startTime":456.552,"endTime":459.5,"body":"doctor rolling in and saying, oh,"},{"startTime":459.526,"endTime":460.596,"body":"no, I know what the problem is."},{"startTime":460.596,"endTime":462.483,"body":"It's this, , and I, like, you watch."},{"startTime":462.483,"endTime":464.231,"body":"And they don't look at any charts"},{"startTime":462.483,"endTime":464.231,"body":"and they don't look at any data."},{"startTime":464.422,"endTime":466.039,"body":", , they don't, they don't look"},{"startTime":464.422,"endTime":466.039,"body":"for any evidence or whatever."},{"startTime":466.248,"endTime":468.909,"body":"And this, like I bring up because"},{"startTime":466.248,"endTime":468.909,"body":"it brings me back to one of"},{"startTime":468.913,"endTime":471.613,"body":"my, , uh,, seminal opinions, , , why"},{"startTime":468.913,"endTime":471.613,"body":"I prefer being in product."},{"startTime":471.77,"endTime":473.465,"body":"So in product, , since"},{"startTime":471.77,"endTime":473.465,"body":"you have the ear of the."},{"startTime":474.074,"endTime":477.083,"body":", you're sort of, , a little bit insulated,"},{"startTime":474.074,"endTime":477.083,"body":"and you can actually ask that question."},{"startTime":477.265,"endTime":481.213,"body":"What makes you think, , x, y,"},{"startTime":477.265,"endTime":481.213,"body":"z without the fear of reprisal?"},{"startTime":481.509,"endTime":484.561,"body":"I can't even begin to guess the"},{"startTime":481.509,"endTime":484.561,"body":"percentage of cultures out there"},{"startTime":484.691,"endTime":485.683,"body":"where this kind of thing is okay."},{"startTime":485.683,"endTime":488.709,"body":"Versus all the companies that randomly"},{"startTime":485.683,"endTime":488.709,"body":"questioning your boss or a VP or"},{"startTime":488.709,"endTime":490.013,"body":"someone in, , a VP of sales or whatever."},{"startTime":490.144,"endTime":492.048,"body":"Like, it just won't fly in the culture."},{"startTime":492.187,"endTime":494.744,"body":"actually, now I think about it, I've"},{"startTime":492.187,"endTime":494.744,"body":"been in companies where it doesn't"},{"startTime":494.744,"endTime":497.231,"body":"even fly as a product person come"},{"startTime":494.744,"endTime":497.231,"body":"and think of it, but it's less"},{"startTime":497.231,"endTime":498.391,"body":"likely that that will be the case."},{"startTime":498.987,"endTime":502.009,"body":"what I have found is as long as you've"},{"startTime":498.987,"endTime":502.009,"body":"built a good supporting organization"},{"startTime":502.635,"endTime":505.539,"body":"around you, , that really understands"},{"startTime":502.635,"endTime":505.539,"body":"and believes in Agile's principles"},{"startTime":505.539,"endTime":508.322,"body":"and values, you can lead the culture"},{"startTime":505.539,"endTime":508.322,"body":"in, anybody should be able to"},{"startTime":508.513,"endTime":510.383,"body":"question anything, and that's okay."},{"startTime":511.113,"endTime":513.226,"body":", and I almost don't want to ask this"},{"startTime":511.113,"endTime":513.226,"body":"cuz it's a loaded question, but"},{"startTime":513.435,"endTime":516.27,"body":"like, in in a culture that sees that"},{"startTime":513.435,"endTime":516.27,"body":"question as a challenge, if you're"},{"startTime":516.27,"endTime":519.296,"body":"being an advocate for agile, like is"},{"startTime":516.27,"endTime":519.296,"body":"there a way that you can soften that"},{"startTime":519.3,"endTime":521.044,"body":"blow before you asked that question?"},{"startTime":521.044,"endTime":522.348,"body":"So you kind of not looked at that way."},{"startTime":522.429,"endTime":524.699,"body":"I think we have so this"},{"startTime":522.429,"endTime":524.699,"body":"is maybe a good segue."},{"startTime":524.699,"endTime":527.438,"body":"We do have something else"},{"startTime":524.699,"endTime":527.438,"body":"on our list of topics today."},{"startTime":527.725,"endTime":530.36,"body":"If you are empowered to say that,"},{"startTime":527.725,"endTime":530.36,"body":"or if you're in an environment where"},{"startTime":530.364,"endTime":534.29,"body":"you feel empowered to say that maybe"},{"startTime":530.364,"endTime":534.29,"body":"there's a better way, or can we"},{"startTime":534.29,"endTime":535.777,"body":"question how well we're really doing?"},{"startTime":535.855,"endTime":535.96,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":536.116,"endTime":536.455,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":536.821,"endTime":542.021,"body":"Then you'll basically have a"},{"startTime":536.821,"endTime":542.021,"body":"sense of safety, that you can say"},{"startTime":542.021,"endTime":545.812,"body":"that without getting fired or or"},{"startTime":542.021,"endTime":545.812,"body":"being told, stay in your lane."},{"startTime":545.916,"endTime":546.151,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":546.151,"endTime":548.499,"body":"This is not, you just"},{"startTime":546.151,"endTime":548.499,"body":"knuckle down, do your job."},{"startTime":548.838,"endTime":548.89,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":549.438,"endTime":554.995,"body":"So if, if an organization isn't"},{"startTime":549.438,"endTime":554.995,"body":"open to listening to people about"},{"startTime":554.995,"endTime":556.847,"body":"those things about anything, right."},{"startTime":557.247,"endTime":557.977,"body":"How did they get better?"},{"startTime":558.238,"endTime":561.612,"body":"I mean, it's, it's just a top down"},{"startTime":558.238,"endTime":561.612,"body":"decision at that point I know best"},{"startTime":561.638,"endTime":562.603,"body":"you're gonna do what I'm saying."},{"startTime":562.603,"endTime":563.542,"body":"And then you'll."},{"startTime":564.442,"endTime":566.947,"body":"People at the next tier,"},{"startTime":564.442,"endTime":566.947,"body":"I'll put it that way."},{"startTime":567.234,"endTime":568.121,"body":"They will emulate you."},{"startTime":568.208,"endTime":571.329,"body":"Mm-hmm  as a leader and they'll"},{"startTime":568.208,"endTime":571.329,"body":"do the same thing to their people."},{"startTime":571.329,"endTime":571.564,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":571.564,"endTime":572.625,"body":"They'll just say, do as I say."},{"startTime":572.869,"endTime":577.329,"body":"So that's that then snowballs into"},{"startTime":572.869,"endTime":577.329,"body":"this culture of no risk taking, right."},{"startTime":577.329,"endTime":578.686,"body":"Just, just follow the order."},{"startTime":578.921,"endTime":579.938,"body":"Everybody's in order taker now."},{"startTime":579.938,"endTime":582.782,"body":"let's shuffle this under the arguing"},{"startTime":579.938,"endTime":582.782,"body":"agile banner, and let's argue about this."},{"startTime":582.782,"endTime":583.46,"body":"So, so sure."},{"startTime":583.877,"endTime":588.182,"body":"Like the arguing point here is like"},{"startTime":583.877,"endTime":588.182,"body":"anybody in the culture could do that."},{"startTime":588.495,"endTime":590.216,"body":"It doesn't necessarily have"},{"startTime":588.495,"endTime":590.216,"body":"to be a manager or whatever."},{"startTime":590.216,"endTime":593.19,"body":"Like you could have a developer,"},{"startTime":590.216,"endTime":593.19,"body":"your team who shuts down conversation"},{"startTime":593.19,"endTime":595.121,"body":"about whatever, because they"},{"startTime":593.19,"endTime":595.121,"body":"have a specific way they want to"},{"startTime":595.121,"endTime":596.242,"body":"overbearing personalities or whatever."},{"startTime":596.634,"endTime":599.582,"body":"If you're gonna advocate for agile"},{"startTime":596.634,"endTime":599.582,"body":"in your environment, this is sort of"},{"startTime":599.582,"endTime":603.103,"body":"why I bring up it it's a, this is,"},{"startTime":599.582,"endTime":603.103,"body":"it's not even related as a topic,"},{"startTime":603.103,"endTime":604.199,"body":"so I hate to even bring it up here."},{"startTime":604.203,"endTime":606.564,"body":"But when I throw out I think"},{"startTime":604.203,"endTime":606.564,"body":"the scrum masters should"},{"startTime":606.564,"endTime":607.973,"body":"work under the banner of HR."},{"startTime":607.999,"endTime":608.547,"body":"When I throw that."},{"startTime":609.329,"endTime":611.051,"body":"As a, like a kind of a challenge."},{"startTime":611.051,"endTime":613.999,"body":"Sometimes when I throw that out and"},{"startTime":611.051,"endTime":613.999,"body":"people are like, HR has no idea what"},{"startTime":614.286,"endTime":615.669,"body":"ScrumMasters do or what agile coaches do."},{"startTime":615.669,"endTime":616.999,"body":"Why, why would, why"},{"startTime":615.669,"endTime":616.999,"body":"would you place in there?"},{"startTime":616.999,"endTime":618.642,"body":"I'm like HR has no idea what anyone does."},{"startTime":618.642,"endTime":620.286,"body":"Why like, where are we going?"},{"startTime":620.338,"endTime":621.642,"body":"Everybody's just selling"},{"startTime":620.338,"endTime":621.642,"body":"a spreadsheet as far."},{"startTime":621.642,"endTime":621.851,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":621.851,"endTime":622.799,"body":"So, I mean but,"},{"startTime":622.86,"endTime":625.938,"body":"If they were under hr, maybe they"},{"startTime":622.86,"endTime":625.938,"body":"would be better positioned to have"},{"startTime":625.938,"endTime":628.39,"body":"more influence in the culture to"},{"startTime":625.938,"endTime":628.39,"body":"say, , Hey, we have these people in"},{"startTime":628.39,"endTime":629.929,"body":"our culture and they're never wrong"},{"startTime":630.016,"endTime":632.234,"body":"basically identifying people"},{"startTime":630.016,"endTime":632.234,"body":"that are stuck in a fixed"},{"startTime":632.234,"endTime":633.434,"body":"mindset in the organization."},{"startTime":633.529,"endTime":635.694,"body":"They can question the status quo and yeah,"},{"startTime":635.737,"endTime":637.146,"body":"So for people whose companies are."},{"startTime":637.89,"endTime":638.568,"body":", these type of people."},{"startTime":638.568,"endTime":640.994,"body":"I guess someone could stick it"},{"startTime":638.568,"endTime":640.994,"body":"out and try to change people one"},{"startTime":640.994,"endTime":642.168,"body":"by one and do that heavy lifting."},{"startTime":642.35,"endTime":644.96,"body":"But the more likely scenario,"},{"startTime":642.35,"endTime":644.96,"body":"I think is they're just going"},{"startTime":644.964,"endTime":647.307,"body":"to go look for a different job"},{"startTime":647.35,"endTime":647.637,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":647.637,"endTime":648.368,"body":"There's a lot there."},{"startTime":648.368,"endTime":651.446,"body":"I mean, listen to how they're just,"},{"startTime":648.368,"endTime":651.446,"body":"just examine how they're rewarded."},{"startTime":651.45,"endTime":653.246,"body":"What's the reward"},{"startTime":651.45,"endTime":653.246,"body":"structure based on, right."},{"startTime":653.507,"endTime":655.124,"body":"It's not based on improving others."},{"startTime":655.124,"endTime":657.133,"body":"It's based on getting"},{"startTime":655.124,"endTime":657.133,"body":"ahead as an individual."},{"startTime":657.864,"endTime":660.733,"body":"so right there, you could question,"},{"startTime":657.864,"endTime":660.733,"body":"how is that possible to instill"},{"startTime":660.733,"endTime":665.985,"body":"a culture of inclusion and people"},{"startTime":660.733,"endTime":665.985,"body":"coming in and contributing to this"},{"startTime":665.99,"endTime":667.368,"body":"mindset of questioning everything?"},{"startTime":667.733,"endTime":670.342,"body":"It's ironic because senior"},{"startTime":667.733,"endTime":670.342,"body":"leadership will say things like"},{"startTime":670.342,"endTime":671.594,"body":"we're embracing agility, right."},{"startTime":671.829,"endTime":675.037,"body":"And it'll be in your company reports"},{"startTime":671.829,"endTime":675.037,"body":"and, and financial reports and"},{"startTime":675.037,"endTime":676.864,"body":"whatever else, that's one thing."},{"startTime":676.916,"endTime":679.237,"body":"But when you look at how they're"},{"startTime":676.916,"endTime":679.237,"body":"really acting behaving every"},{"startTime":679.242,"endTime":680.724,"body":"day, it's completely different."},{"startTime":680.729,"endTime":680.907,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":681.559,"endTime":682.446,"body":"That's what I've seen anyway."},{"startTime":682.904,"endTime":685.757,"body":"So just speak to your"},{"startTime":682.904,"endTime":685.757,"body":"comment in regards to HR."},{"startTime":685.917,"endTime":686.804,"body":"That could work."},{"startTime":686.995,"endTime":693.7,"body":"However, if you have a company that"},{"startTime":686.995,"endTime":693.7,"body":"falls under this command and control type"},{"startTime":693.704,"endTime":698.252,"body":"of culture,   in my experience, HR is"},{"startTime":693.704,"endTime":698.252,"body":"gonna fall under that cultural oh yeah."},{"startTime":698.356,"endTime":701.408,"body":"Kind of umbrella just as any other."},{"startTime":701.643,"endTime":701.721,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":701.791,"endTime":705.026,"body":"Any other piece of the organization,"},{"startTime":701.791,"endTime":705.026,"body":"which means that just moving, for"},{"startTime":705.026,"endTime":709.252,"body":"instance, a scrum master or, or change"},{"startTime":705.026,"endTime":709.252,"body":"agent in regards to advocating for"},{"startTime":709.278,"endTime":713.156,"body":"agile, into HR may not be impactful."},{"startTime":713.391,"endTime":713.574,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"startTime":713.995,"endTime":718.291,"body":"some of the other things that I, that"},{"startTime":713.995,"endTime":718.291,"body":"I just kind of thought about was so"},{"startTime":718.291,"endTime":719.647,"body":"certainly organizational culture."},{"startTime":719.647,"endTime":723.221,"body":"I mean, I think that is"},{"startTime":719.647,"endTime":723.221,"body":"the, the underpinning of."},{"startTime":724.46,"endTime":729.408,"body":"Creating the I know I used the term"},{"startTime":724.46,"endTime":729.408,"body":"psychological safety, but creating"},{"startTime":729.413,"endTime":733.617,"body":"the trust comfort and psychological"},{"startTime":729.413,"endTime":733.617,"body":"safety of any employee to be able"},{"startTime":733.617,"endTime":734.478,"body":"to stand up and say, you know what?"},{"startTime":734.478,"endTime":736.878,"body":"I have a great idea, or what"},{"startTime":734.478,"endTime":736.878,"body":"this isn't working, or I"},{"startTime":736.882,"endTime":737.843,"body":"don't really agree with that."},{"startTime":738.269,"endTime":741.713,"body":"And this is why, and that doesn't"},{"startTime":738.269,"endTime":741.713,"body":"necessarily mean that, Hey, that their"},{"startTime":741.713,"endTime":745.687,"body":"idea or thoughts are would be adopted"},{"startTime":741.713,"endTime":745.687,"body":"or even appropriate, but the fact"},{"startTime":745.687,"endTime":747.252,"body":"that they are comfortable to do that."},{"startTime":747.256,"endTime":747.452,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":747.721,"endTime":751.765,"body":"Should culture is gonna be the"},{"startTime":747.721,"endTime":751.765,"body":"overarching   feature, which"},{"startTime":751.765,"endTime":755.26,"body":"would even open that possibility,"},{"startTime":751.765,"endTime":755.26,"body":"but there's some other things."},{"startTime":755.574,"endTime":759.565,"body":"So their level of experience and"},{"startTime":755.574,"endTime":759.565,"body":"confidence so somebody who's going,"},{"startTime":759.569,"endTime":760.556,"body":"like I'm kind of new at this."},{"startTime":760.556,"endTime":761.834,"body":"I don't really feel confident."},{"startTime":761.834,"endTime":766.06,"body":"I think maybe this might be something I"},{"startTime":761.834,"endTime":766.06,"body":"should bring up, but I'm probably wrong"},{"startTime":766.06,"endTime":769.295,"body":"because I just I'm, I'm not that schooled"},{"startTime":766.06,"endTime":769.295,"body":"in this and I'm, I'm still learning."},{"startTime":769.678,"endTime":773.513,"body":"So in that regard, being supported by."},{"startTime":774.491,"endTime":777.96,"body":"Colleagues people in your, at your"},{"startTime":774.491,"endTime":777.96,"body":"level, people of your own that,"},{"startTime":777.987,"endTime":780.7,"body":"that you do feel comfortable with"},{"startTime":777.987,"endTime":780.7,"body":"typically, maybe being more candid"},{"startTime":780.7,"endTime":782.865,"body":"with and could help you mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":782.995,"endTime":784.665,"body":"So that is also cultural."},{"startTime":785.082,"endTime":789.23,"body":"But it's, it's a different way of"},{"startTime":785.082,"endTime":789.23,"body":"approaching and can kind of overcome some"},{"startTime":789.23,"endTime":792.908,"body":"of those things that are maybe personality"},{"startTime":789.23,"endTime":792.908,"body":"based or, or, or, or lack of confidence."},{"startTime":793.404,"endTime":800.4,"body":"And and then the, to your, to your"},{"startTime":793.404,"endTime":800.4,"body":"point in regards to the organizational"},{"startTime":800.4,"endTime":803.121,"body":"or the,  are they working their talk?"},{"startTime":803.121,"endTime":804.243,"body":"Are they getting up there?"},{"startTime":804.243,"endTime":805.339,"body":"Are they showing."},{"startTime":805.76,"endTime":810.326,"body":"Command and control type of behavior,"},{"startTime":805.76,"endTime":810.326,"body":"or are they appreciating and"},{"startTime":810.326,"endTime":812.83,"body":"saying, you know what, I haven't,"},{"startTime":810.326,"endTime":812.83,"body":"that, that's a really great point."},{"startTime":812.834,"endTime":814.239,"body":"I really appreciate you bringing that up."},{"startTime":814.243,"endTime":815.752,"body":"I hadn't thought of it in that way."},{"startTime":815.752,"endTime":815.804,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":815.96,"endTime":816.195,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":816.2,"endTime":819.917,"body":"So encouraging that in a way that"},{"startTime":816.2,"endTime":819.917,"body":"would encourage them employees."},{"startTime":820.047,"endTime":822.682,"body":"So are they walking that talk"},{"startTime":820.047,"endTime":822.682,"body":"or are they being that highest"},{"startTime":822.682,"endTime":825.604,"body":"paid person in the room who says,"},{"startTime":822.682,"endTime":825.604,"body":"this is the way it's going to be?"},{"startTime":825.604,"endTime":829.343,"body":"Or this is, these are my thoughts and it"},{"startTime":825.604,"endTime":829.343,"body":"shuts down the conversation completely"},{"startTime":829.343,"endTime":831.56,"body":"and any, in any ingenuity and innovation."},{"startTime":831.56,"endTime":831.847,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":832.108,"endTime":833.804,"body":"So again, back to cultural,"},{"startTime":834.117,"endTime":837.691,"body":"and then the other thing I'll"},{"startTime":834.117,"endTime":837.691,"body":"just back up on is, is I think you"},{"startTime":837.691,"endTime":842.804,"body":"hit on a huge point and a lot of"},{"startTime":837.691,"endTime":842.804,"body":"times we're talking about motive."},{"startTime":843.734,"endTime":846.613,"body":"So usually we're trying to"},{"startTime":843.734,"endTime":846.613,"body":"kind of understand what's"},{"startTime":846.617,"endTime":848.256,"body":"the motive in pushing this."},{"startTime":848.26,"endTime":852.287,"body":"So from 75 to 85%,  incentives."},{"startTime":852.574,"endTime":856.913,"body":"What are the incentives for that"},{"startTime":852.574,"endTime":856.913,"body":"who's being incentivized,  it"},{"startTime":856.913,"endTime":861.008,"body":"usually is not the people that are"},{"startTime":856.913,"endTime":861.008,"body":"being pushed from 75 to 80, 85%."},{"startTime":861.374,"endTime":861.634,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":861.639,"endTime":867.217,"body":"So, so figuring that out and also being"},{"startTime":861.639,"endTime":867.217,"body":"brave enough or comfortable enough,"},{"startTime":867.556,"endTime":872.982,"body":"or I, I, I mean, some other adjective"},{"startTime":867.556,"endTime":872.982,"body":"enough to be able to come to that person"},{"startTime":872.982,"endTime":874.887,"body":"and say what are your real motivations?"},{"startTime":874.887,"endTime":877.13,"body":"And are they the   are, are they"},{"startTime":874.887,"endTime":877.13,"body":"the, are we looking, being penny"},{"startTime":877.13,"endTime":879.139,"body":"wise and pound foolish share, right."},{"startTime":879.165,"endTime":883.443,"body":"So that you can get your bonus,"},{"startTime":879.165,"endTime":883.443,"body":"but does that help our organization"},{"startTime":883.443,"endTime":885.478,"body":"over the next year or five years?"},{"startTime":885.791,"endTime":886.13,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":886.417,"endTime":891.087,"body":"And my last point I would make is"},{"startTime":886.417,"endTime":891.087,"body":"moving that needle from 75 to 85."},{"startTime":892.156,"endTime":899.104,"body":"in my experience, you tell me to qualify"},{"startTime":892.156,"endTime":899.104,"body":"my work and what I'm doing in a day to"},{"startTime":899.104,"endTime":903.308,"body":"make sure that I am documenting every"},{"startTime":899.104,"endTime":903.308,"body":"down to the 15 minute mark of what"},{"startTime":903.36,"endTime":908.96,"body":"project I am putting these minutes"},{"startTime":903.36,"endTime":908.96,"body":"into for, for every 15 minute increment"},{"startTime":908.96,"endTime":910.395,"body":"and charging it to the customer."},{"startTime":910.4,"endTime":915.43,"body":"And, and if you want me to move that"},{"startTime":910.4,"endTime":915.43,"body":"from 75 to 85%, you know what, the next"},{"startTime":915.43,"endTime":917.439,"body":"day it's gonna happen, it'll happen."},{"startTime":917.465,"endTime":917.856,"body":"Of course."},{"startTime":918.117,"endTime":920.83,"body":"Is it fact, is it something"},{"startTime":918.117,"endTime":920.83,"body":"that, I mean, it's gonna make"},{"startTime":920.83,"endTime":922.239,"body":"your metrics look really good."},{"startTime":923.23,"endTime":923.465,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":923.469,"endTime":925.421,"body":"So those that are"},{"startTime":923.469,"endTime":925.421,"body":"demanding that improvement."},{"startTime":926.1,"endTime":930.039,"body":"The metrics are judged by that that's the"},{"startTime":926.1,"endTime":930.039,"body":"problem, they they're evaluated on that."},{"startTime":930.039,"endTime":932.595,"body":"Mm-hmm  and so they can look upwards"},{"startTime":930.039,"endTime":932.595,"body":"and go, Hey boss, look what I did."},{"startTime":932.647,"endTime":934.787,"body":"I got 'em up to 85, 10% improvement."},{"startTime":934.787,"endTime":935.308,"body":"Yay."},{"startTime":935.465,"endTime":936.456,"body":"Where's my bonus."},{"startTime":936.543,"endTime":940.004,"body":"At the team level though, it's like I'm"},{"startTime":936.543,"endTime":940.004,"body":"trying to think of a good metaphor here."},{"startTime":940.3,"endTime":943.352,"body":"Maybe a chariot,  where you have"},{"startTime":940.3,"endTime":943.352,"body":"multiple horses pulling this chariot."},{"startTime":943.691,"endTime":944.004,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":944.187,"endTime":948.178,"body":"And, and it's moving along, but like,"},{"startTime":944.187,"endTime":948.178,"body":"why is that, is it because of a given"},{"startTime":948.178,"endTime":951.23,"body":"horse that's leading the others or"},{"startTime":948.178,"endTime":951.23,"body":"is it, are they all pulling together?"},{"startTime":951.334,"endTime":952.169,"body":"Who are you gonna reward?"},{"startTime":952.169,"endTime":952.717,"body":"Who are you gonna whip?"},{"startTime":953.291,"endTime":953.578,"body":"You know?"},{"startTime":953.582,"endTime":958.1,"body":"So this whole model of individual"},{"startTime":953.582,"endTime":958.1,"body":"based,  incentives, right."},{"startTime":958.256,"endTime":962.482,"body":"That I think is an anathema to"},{"startTime":958.256,"endTime":962.482,"body":"working well in a agile way."},{"startTime":962.482,"endTime":963.891,"body":"I think that needs to be team based."},{"startTime":964.413,"endTime":966.787,"body":"We've tackled this before I think"},{"startTime":964.413,"endTime":966.787,"body":"on one of the other podcasts."},{"startTime":966.791,"endTime":966.995,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":967.256,"endTime":971.274,"body":"I have to say there's some hope on this"},{"startTime":967.256,"endTime":971.274,"body":"front because I've seen some things in"},{"startTime":971.274,"endTime":974.091,"body":"this management 3.0 type of talks, right."},{"startTime":974.091,"endTime":978.404,"body":"Where people do the 360 S and everybody"},{"startTime":974.091,"endTime":978.404,"body":"evaluates everybody else and it's"},{"startTime":978.408,"endTime":982.108,"body":"fully transparent, but I haven't"},{"startTime":978.408,"endTime":982.108,"body":"seen that in large organizations."},{"startTime":982.108,"endTime":983.96,"body":"I've only seen it in"},{"startTime":982.108,"endTime":983.96,"body":"very, very small ones."},{"startTime":984.169,"endTime":985.395,"body":"And they're pretty effective at that."},{"startTime":985.752,"endTime":986.639,"body":"Can this be scaled up?"},{"startTime":986.717,"endTime":987.134,"body":"I don't know,"},{"startTime":987.3,"endTime":989.491,"body":"stormy, you said something along"},{"startTime":987.3,"endTime":989.491,"body":"the lines of getting people to"},{"startTime":989.491,"endTime":990.978,"body":"back you up and building alliances."},{"startTime":991.065,"endTime":993.543,"body":"I have this Marty Kagan missionary's,"},{"startTime":991.065,"endTime":993.543,"body":"not mercenary, stuck in my head."},{"startTime":993.813,"endTime":995.587,"body":", I think of when I was, I"},{"startTime":993.813,"endTime":995.587,"body":"was deployed as an ad coach."},{"startTime":995.591,"endTime":998.482,"body":"I had to figure out who in the"},{"startTime":995.591,"endTime":998.482,"body":"organization supports agility and"},{"startTime":998.508,"endTime":1001.195,"body":"who is on the same page, and, and"},{"startTime":998.508,"endTime":1001.195,"body":"leverage those relationships to help"},{"startTime":1001.247,"endTime":1002.76,"body":"agility advance in the organization."},{"startTime":1003.178,"endTime":1005.483,"body":"For example, if you're a developer who"},{"startTime":1003.178,"endTime":1005.483,"body":"likes working in an agile, agile way,"},{"startTime":1005.487,"endTime":1007.978,"body":"you wanna find the other developers"},{"startTime":1005.487,"endTime":1007.978,"body":"who wanna work the way that you wanna"},{"startTime":1007.978,"endTime":1011.456,"body":"work because, You are the one person"},{"startTime":1007.978,"endTime":1011.456,"body":"out from the team and the rest of your"},{"startTime":1011.456,"endTime":1012.369,"body":"team is just like, leave me alone."},{"startTime":1012.369,"endTime":1013.152,"body":"I don't wanna collaborate."},{"startTime":1013.152,"endTime":1014.456,"body":", I just wanna put on"},{"startTime":1013.152,"endTime":1014.456,"body":"headphones and go away."},{"startTime":1014.639,"endTime":1016.126,"body":"Like you're gonna have"},{"startTime":1014.639,"endTime":1016.126,"body":"a bad time on that team."},{"startTime":1017.247,"endTime":1021.134,"body":"The critique in this episode is"},{"startTime":1017.247,"endTime":1021.134,"body":"developers should be development centric."},{"startTime":1021.183,"endTime":1023.87,"body":","},{"startTime":1021.183,"endTime":1023.87,"body":"A agile should be development"},{"startTime":1023.87,"endTime":1025.253,"body":"by developers, for developers."},{"startTime":1025.435,"endTime":1028.061,"body":"And , I mean, I, I, I"},{"startTime":1025.435,"endTime":1028.061,"body":"understand why people say that."},{"startTime":1028.061,"endTime":1032.181,"body":", but if it was completely true wouldn't,"},{"startTime":1028.061,"endTime":1032.181,"body":", the developers be the number one advocates"},{"startTime":1032.185,"endTime":1033.007,"body":"for the stuff that we're talking?"},{"startTime":1035.59,"endTime":1036.059,"body":"For sure."},{"startTime":1036.111,"endTime":1036.372,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1036.79,"endTime":1038.946,"body":"I, I think when you look at,"},{"startTime":1036.79,"endTime":1038.946,"body":"I think it's a numbers thing."},{"startTime":1038.946,"endTime":1042.207,"body":"So when you look at developers,"},{"startTime":1038.946,"endTime":1042.207,"body":"plural, there's a few developers on"},{"startTime":1042.233,"endTime":1044.546,"body":"your team,  when you look at scrum"},{"startTime":1042.233,"endTime":1044.546,"body":"masters, one person beat the drum."},{"startTime":1044.842,"endTime":1048.907,"body":"So if you've got a developer who"},{"startTime":1044.842,"endTime":1048.907,"body":"is advocating agile and other"},{"startTime":1048.907,"endTime":1053.003,"body":"developers can possibly go along,"},{"startTime":1048.907,"endTime":1053.003,"body":"possibly not what they need, they"},{"startTime":1053.003,"endTime":1055.298,"body":"need some fuel to help them along."},{"startTime":1055.351,"endTime":1057.672,"body":"It might be this scrum master"},{"startTime":1055.351,"endTime":1057.672,"body":"or the proton or anybody."},{"startTime":1057.777,"endTime":1060.829,"body":"One of the other developers to"},{"startTime":1057.777,"endTime":1060.829,"body":"say, Hey, listen to this person."},{"startTime":1060.833,"endTime":1061.898,"body":"Maybe we should try it."},{"startTime":1062.133,"endTime":1062.185,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1062.237,"endTime":1063.594,"body":"Let's see how it works for us."},{"startTime":1063.646,"endTime":1066.837,"body":"But just to go back to the question"},{"startTime":1063.646,"endTime":1066.837,"body":"you posed, what does advocacy look"},{"startTime":1066.837,"endTime":1071.298,"body":"like again, regardless of the role,"},{"startTime":1066.837,"endTime":1071.298,"body":"I think there's two parts to it."},{"startTime":1071.324,"endTime":1075.185,"body":"One is you've gotta treat the"},{"startTime":1071.324,"endTime":1075.185,"body":"other person as possibly not even"},{"startTime":1075.185,"endTime":1076.62,"body":"knowing about agile ways of working."},{"startTime":1076.62,"endTime":1078.211,"body":"It's not that they're resistant to it."},{"startTime":1078.211,"endTime":1079.49,"body":"They maybe they just don't know."},{"startTime":1079.672,"endTime":1081.232,"body":"So there's a little bit of education,"},{"startTime":1081.276,"endTime":1084.693,"body":"or worse, maybe they only"},{"startTime":1081.276,"endTime":1084.693,"body":"have ever had bad experiences."},{"startTime":1084.876,"endTime":1088.137,"body":"Maybe you are the first person who's"},{"startTime":1084.876,"endTime":1088.137,"body":"talked to them like an adult and not"},{"startTime":1088.137,"endTime":1090.876,"body":"treated them like a child because they've"},{"startTime":1088.137,"endTime":1090.876,"body":"been doing waterfall and everyone else"},{"startTime":1090.876,"endTime":1092.18,"body":"in the community has treated them poorly."},{"startTime":1092.937,"endTime":1094.345,"body":"So you might be climbing an uphill."},{"startTime":1095.211,"endTime":1096.567,"body":"What kind of euphemism is that?"},{"startTime":1096.697,"endTime":1098.863,"body":"I almost don't wanna leave that"},{"startTime":1096.697,"endTime":1098.863,"body":"in cause this is so ridiculous,"},{"startTime":1098.961,"endTime":1101.883,"body":"."},{"startTime":1098.961,"endTime":1101.883,"body":"You might be starting from a negative"},{"startTime":1101.951,"endTime":1102.421,"body":"that's right."},{"startTime":1102.577,"endTime":1102.916,"body":"That's right."},{"startTime":1103.621,"endTime":1103.882,"body":"Yep."},{"startTime":1103.882,"endTime":1107.116,"body":"So education finding out, finding"},{"startTime":1103.882,"endTime":1107.116,"body":"out where everybody's at first."},{"startTime":1107.116,"endTime":1107.429,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1107.586,"endTime":1108.708,"body":"And then lead by example."},{"startTime":1108.734,"endTime":1108.812,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":1108.812,"endTime":1110.09,"body":"Don't just keep talking about it, right."},{"startTime":1110.09,"endTime":1111.551,"body":"Lead by example, show it."},{"startTime":1112.308,"endTime":1112.568,"body":"Show"},{"startTime":1112.568,"endTime":1112.96,"body":"don't tell."},{"startTime":1113.168,"endTime":1113.455,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1113.951,"endTime":1114.082,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1114.082,"endTime":1115.247,"body":"Now's the oh boy, here I go."},{"startTime":1115.251,"endTime":1115.482,"body":"Oh boy."},{"startTime":1115.586,"endTime":1116.055,"body":"Oh boy."},{"startTime":1116.055,"endTime":1119.812,"body":"Now's the time, the podcast where I take"},{"startTime":1116.055,"endTime":1119.812,"body":"a minute off to say like, if, if you"},{"startTime":1119.812,"endTime":1123.568,"body":"are the one expert in the room and you"},{"startTime":1119.812,"endTime":1123.568,"body":"expect everyone to come to you and ask"},{"startTime":1123.568,"endTime":1126.408,"body":"for your opinion you probably should"},{"startTime":1123.568,"endTime":1126.408,"body":"take that responsibility seriously."},{"startTime":1127.239,"endTime":1127.892,"body":"You really"},{"startTime":1127.892,"endTime":1128.335,"body":"should."},{"startTime":1128.57,"endTime":1129.665,"body":"I'm talking to anyone right now."},{"startTime":1129.822,"endTime":1130.587,"body":"Anybody, anybody."},{"startTime":1131.635,"endTime":1133.018,"body":"I wanted to make a quick comment."},{"startTime":1133.122,"endTime":1133.539,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1133.539,"endTime":1138.105,"body":"And, and this is I in regards to, and"},{"startTime":1133.539,"endTime":1138.105,"body":"I'm not sure if this is actually where"},{"startTime":1138.105,"endTime":1143.644,"body":"you were going with this, but I know"},{"startTime":1138.105,"endTime":1143.644,"body":"that originally,  the agile manifesto was"},{"startTime":1143.644,"endTime":1145.705,"body":"created by developers and for developers."},{"startTime":1145.709,"endTime":1145.826,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1145.831,"endTime":1148.809,"body":"And that was very clear in the"},{"startTime":1145.831,"endTime":1148.809,"body":"language that was used and the people"},{"startTime":1148.809,"endTime":1150.287,"body":"that were included to create that."},{"startTime":1150.896,"endTime":1155.644,"body":"I think it's always, it's also been"},{"startTime":1150.896,"endTime":1155.644,"body":"from my perspective and discussions"},{"startTime":1155.644,"endTime":1161.461,"body":"there's been some real Some very"},{"startTime":1155.644,"endTime":1161.461,"body":"purposeful changes throughout the years."},{"startTime":1161.887,"endTime":1166.231,"body":"And particularly now to the most current"},{"startTime":1161.887,"endTime":1166.231,"body":"agile manifesto in 20, or excuse me,"},{"startTime":1166.231,"endTime":1175.665,"body":"scrum, scrum guide, sorry, in 2020"},{"startTime":1166.231,"endTime":1175.665,"body":"that has move that needle to be far"},{"startTime":1175.665,"endTime":1178.744,"body":"more inclusive of other work types."},{"startTime":1178.788,"endTime":1182.57,"body":"where they've removed or changed a lot"},{"startTime":1178.788,"endTime":1182.57,"body":"of the language to be more inclusive"},{"startTime":1182.57,"endTime":1187.736,"body":"because we've seen the value that this can"},{"startTime":1182.57,"endTime":1187.736,"body":"bring beyond just software development."},{"startTime":1188.266,"endTime":1192.857,"body":"I think that by developers for"},{"startTime":1188.266,"endTime":1192.857,"body":"developers is something that, that I"},{"startTime":1192.862,"endTime":1194.683,"body":"don't disagree was the initial intent."},{"startTime":1195.122,"endTime":1201.627,"body":"But over the, years now really has"},{"startTime":1195.122,"endTime":1201.627,"body":"adopted and changed as technology has"},{"startTime":1201.627,"endTime":1207.096,"body":"changed as organizations has changed"},{"startTime":1201.627,"endTime":1207.096,"body":"as organization relationships and"},{"startTime":1207.149,"endTime":1212.757,"body":"where we're seeing organizations kind"},{"startTime":1207.149,"endTime":1212.757,"body":"of embracing The opportunities for"},{"startTime":1212.757,"endTime":1216.905,"body":"a less command and control structure"},{"startTime":1212.757,"endTime":1216.905,"body":"and finding that, you know what?"},{"startTime":1216.905,"endTime":1218.001,"body":"We have great opportunities."},{"startTime":1218.001,"endTime":1223.14,"body":"If we actually listen to people who"},{"startTime":1218.001,"endTime":1223.14,"body":"are working with the applications that,"},{"startTime":1223.14,"endTime":1225.931,"body":"or, or with the product that we're"},{"startTime":1223.14,"endTime":1225.931,"body":"actually developing, these are the"},{"startTime":1225.931,"endTime":1230.783,"body":"people closest to the problems, the"},{"startTime":1225.931,"endTime":1230.783,"body":"issues, the goals, and this is where"},{"startTime":1230.783,"endTime":1232.557,"body":"we need to, to, to kind of concentrate."},{"startTime":1232.557,"endTime":1235.588,"body":"So really flattening that out"},{"startTime":1232.557,"endTime":1235.588,"body":"that has opened that door to a"},{"startTime":1235.588,"endTime":1240.275,"body":"lot of other opportunities outside"},{"startTime":1235.588,"endTime":1240.275,"body":"of just software developers."},{"startTime":1240.562,"endTime":1242.101,"body":"I'm not sure where you're"},{"startTime":1240.562,"endTime":1242.101,"body":"leading me with this."},{"startTime":1242.101,"endTime":1244.24,"body":"I'm trying to follow, but I'm not, I'm not"},{"startTime":1242.101,"endTime":1244.24,"body":"quite sure where we're going with this."},{"startTime":1244.283,"endTime":1247.822,"body":"There's a flourishing community of"},{"startTime":1244.283,"endTime":1247.822,"body":"rage-aholics on LinkedIn that are"},{"startTime":1247.822,"endTime":1250.692,"body":"claiming that it's like, it's by"},{"startTime":1247.822,"endTime":1250.692,"body":"developers for developers and anyone."},{"startTime":1250.692,"endTime":1251.449,"body":"Who's not a developer."},{"startTime":1251.457,"endTime":1252.188,"body":"You'll never get it."},{"startTime":1252.188,"endTime":1253.492,"body":"You don't understand,"},{"startTime":1252.188,"endTime":1253.492,"body":"you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":1253.683,"endTime":1256.449,"body":"Scrum masters that, that are not,"},{"startTime":1253.683,"endTime":1256.449,"body":"developers are useless POS that"},{"startTime":1256.449,"endTime":1257.596,"body":"are not, developers are useless."},{"startTime":1257.596,"endTime":1258.614,"body":"Like everyone should be a developer."},{"startTime":1258.614,"endTime":1262.162,"body":"Like there's a lot of people who"},{"startTime":1258.614,"endTime":1262.162,"body":"are thought provokers that that,"},{"startTime":1262.266,"endTime":1263.57,"body":"that try to sell that right."},{"startTime":1263.57,"endTime":1264.666,"body":"I don't put any stock into that as well."},{"startTime":1264.67,"endTime":1265.84,"body":"Like I, I look at them online."},{"startTime":1265.84,"endTime":1266.727,"body":"I'm like, yeah, you're real cute."},{"startTime":1266.936,"endTime":1270.37,"body":"but, were they shooting themselves in"},{"startTime":1266.936,"endTime":1270.37,"body":"the foot when they're like, you gotta"},{"startTime":1270.37,"endTime":1275.431,"body":"do what the developers say or else you"},{"startTime":1270.37,"endTime":1275.431,"body":"can't be effective because immediately"},{"startTime":1275.431,"endTime":1278.744,"body":"you take that back to industry and"},{"startTime":1275.431,"endTime":1278.744,"body":"industry's gonna just scoff at it"},{"startTime":1278.979,"endTime":1280.205,"body":"and she's not gonna take it serious."},{"startTime":1280.362,"endTime":1281.64,"body":"Like you're not gonna get"},{"startTime":1280.362,"endTime":1281.64,"body":"your foot in the door."},{"startTime":1281.744,"endTime":1284.275,"body":"Cause the same thing as having the agile"},{"startTime":1281.744,"endTime":1284.275,"body":"coach be like, you're doing it all wrong."},{"startTime":1284.727,"endTime":1286.927,"body":"You gotta just gotta do what"},{"startTime":1284.727,"endTime":1286.927,"body":"I say and thinking they're"},{"startTime":1286.927,"endTime":1287.762,"body":"gonna get traction with that."},{"startTime":1287.814,"endTime":1288.883,"body":"This is kind of the same thing"},{"startTime":1289.002,"endTime":1290.55,"body":"I should stop and go pull"},{"startTime":1289.002,"endTime":1290.55,"body":"up the tweets from Alistair."},{"startTime":1290.567,"endTime":1290.958,"body":"Coburn."},{"startTime":1291.297,"endTime":1292.054,"body":","},{"startTime":1291.297,"endTime":1292.054,"body":"I don't know if I'll leave this in."},{"startTime":1292.141,"endTime":1296.522,"body":", he, I remember he went on a 20 tweet"},{"startTime":1292.141,"endTime":1296.522,"body":"stream where he mentioned that when"},{"startTime":1296.522,"endTime":1299.493,"body":"they were designing the scrum master"},{"startTime":1296.522,"endTime":1299.493,"body":"role, , it was designed off of all the"},{"startTime":1299.493,"endTime":1304.132,"body":"most trivial things that Ken Schwaber,"},{"startTime":1299.493,"endTime":1304.132,"body":", he saw project manager is doing."},{"startTime":1304.393,"endTime":1307.001,"body":"So for example, you walk around and"},{"startTime":1304.393,"endTime":1307.001,"body":"ask what everyone's status is and"},{"startTime":1307.001,"endTime":1309.741,"body":"then you write it down in your little"},{"startTime":1307.001,"endTime":1309.741,"body":"book and then you go tell management."},{"startTime":1309.923,"endTime":1312.949,"body":"And he thought that was what the scrum"},{"startTime":1309.923,"endTime":1312.949,"body":"master should be designed to basically"},{"startTime":1312.949,"endTime":1315.114,"body":"be a completely useless position."},{"startTime":1315.271,"endTime":1318.793,"body":"The equivalent is like if I were to"},{"startTime":1315.271,"endTime":1318.793,"body":"design an executive position based off"},{"startTime":1318.793,"endTime":1321.636,"body":"of what I saw executives do all day, like"},{"startTime":1318.793,"endTime":1321.636,"body":"they would come in 20 minutes before."},{"startTime":1322.171,"endTime":1324.632,"body":"And maybe yell at some people and,"},{"startTime":1322.171,"endTime":1324.632,"body":"practice, some golf swings, , in a meeting"},{"startTime":1324.632,"endTime":1327.528,"body":"room and then go to lunch and, , never"},{"startTime":1324.632,"endTime":1327.528,"body":"come back for the rest of the day."},{"startTime":1327.58,"endTime":1329.588,"body":"That would be the, the"},{"startTime":1327.58,"endTime":1329.588,"body":"executives business role."},{"startTime":1329.762,"endTime":1332.841,"body":"But what I'm questioning is whether they"},{"startTime":1329.762,"endTime":1332.841,"body":"undermined their own cause by doing that,"},{"startTime":1333.336,"endTime":1334.484,"body":","},{"startTime":1333.336,"endTime":1334.484,"body":"let's see if I can find the tweets."},{"startTime":1334.484,"endTime":1337.18,"body":"Otherwise, I can't keep this"},{"startTime":1334.484,"endTime":1337.18,"body":"whole section in the podcast."},{"startTime":1337.342,"endTime":1338.385,"body":"Okay, here's the first tweet."},{"startTime":1338.716,"endTime":1341.042,"body":", and I'll read it for everyone"},{"startTime":1338.716,"endTime":1341.042,"body":"listening on the audio, , podcast."},{"startTime":1341.59,"endTime":1345.007,"body":"So, possibly the most important thing"},{"startTime":1341.59,"endTime":1345.007,"body":"to think about when looking at Scrum"},{"startTime":1345.007,"endTime":1350.729,"body":"XP and quote Agile now is that as they"},{"startTime":1345.007,"endTime":1350.729,"body":"started, they were very anti management."},{"startTime":1350.868,"endTime":1353.999,"body":"this part of what we're talking about"},{"startTime":1350.868,"endTime":1353.999,"body":"with this topic, you, you can't be a good."},{"startTime":1354.833,"endTime":1356.946,"body":"If you're going around the organization"},{"startTime":1354.833,"endTime":1356.946,"body":"saying everything you're doing is"},{"startTime":1356.946,"endTime":1358.381,"body":"dumb, everything he's doing is wrong."},{"startTime":1358.425,"endTime":1360.646,"body":"I do like these writing, this"},{"startTime":1358.425,"endTime":1360.646,"body":"tweet in response to people saying,"},{"startTime":1360.646,"endTime":1364.646,"body":"scrum, , slash agile is, , a"},{"startTime":1360.646,"endTime":1364.646,"body":"management means of, , co-opting or"},{"startTime":1364.646,"endTime":1365.872,"body":"controlling or oppressing people."},{"startTime":1366.129,"endTime":1368.303,"body":", I, I do enjoy that, , cuz"},{"startTime":1366.129,"endTime":1368.303,"body":"I see that on LinkedIn."},{"startTime":1368.329,"endTime":1371.025,"body":", which is funny cuz , he wrote"},{"startTime":1368.329,"endTime":1371.025,"body":"this in whatever, mid 2021."},{"startTime":1371.025,"endTime":1373.085,"body":"So , , thought provokers."},{"startTime":1373.143,"endTime":1374.239,"body":"Anyway, he said, I'll continue."},{"startTime":1374.243,"endTime":1376.369,"body":"He says, , Ken Schwaber wasn't"},{"startTime":1374.243,"endTime":1376.369,"body":"shy, that his goal was to"},{"startTime":1376.369,"endTime":1377.7,"body":"get rid of project managers."},{"startTime":1377.752,"endTime":1380.856,"body":"He wanted to throw them out out of"},{"startTime":1377.752,"endTime":1380.856,"body":"the window as a profession basically."},{"startTime":1381.143,"endTime":1382.526,"body":"So Scrum was not invented to help."},{"startTime":1382.878,"endTime":1384.156,"body":"Or PMs?"},{"startTime":1384.161,"endTime":1386.378,"body":"PMs, , here, meaning project"},{"startTime":1384.161,"endTime":1386.378,"body":"managers, not product managers."},{"startTime":1386.691,"endTime":1389.639,"body":"Okay, so buckle up cuz he"},{"startTime":1386.691,"endTime":1389.639,"body":"continues the original xp."},{"startTime":1389.717,"endTime":1394.23,"body":"Replaced the PM with a junior level"},{"startTime":1389.717,"endTime":1394.23,"body":"tracker person who went around every"},{"startTime":1394.23,"endTime":1396.239,"body":"day and asked people how far they were."},{"startTime":1396.3,"endTime":1398.9,"body":"That being the perception of"},{"startTime":1396.3,"endTime":1398.9,"body":"what the PMs did with the time."},{"startTime":1399.708,"endTime":1401.847,"body":"W which I have to say"},{"startTime":1399.708,"endTime":1401.847,"body":"like he's pretty spot on."},{"startTime":1401.891,"endTime":1404.056,"body":", that is what a lot of low quality"},{"startTime":1401.891,"endTime":1404.056,"body":"PMs I've worked with, , that,"},{"startTime":1404.161,"endTime":1405.282,"body":"that deflect risk all day."},{"startTime":1405.282,"endTime":1405.778,"body":"That's what they do."},{"startTime":1405.885,"endTime":1406.537,"body":"What are you doing all day?"},{"startTime":1406.537,"endTime":1408.172,"body":"And if you have problems, , g"},{"startTime":1406.537,"endTime":1408.172,"body":"don't talk to me."},{"startTime":1408.271,"endTime":1408.897,"body":"."},{"startTime":1408.271,"endTime":1408.897,"body":"Oh boy."},{"startTime":1408.897,"endTime":1409.158,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":1409.162,"endTime":1409.836,"body":"He continues."},{"startTime":1409.862,"endTime":1413.149,"body":", scrum Masters were given zero"},{"startTime":1409.862,"endTime":1413.149,"body":"power and zero votes on all issues."},{"startTime":1413.332,"endTime":1415.81,"body":"He also says the job of the scrum"},{"startTime":1413.332,"endTime":1415.81,"body":"master was to run around the org,"},{"startTime":1415.941,"endTime":1418.923,"body":"getting things signed, keeping people"},{"startTime":1415.941,"endTime":1418.923,"body":"away from the team and whatever was"},{"startTime":1418.923,"endTime":1420.097,"body":"needed so people could get work."},{"startTime":1420.541,"endTime":1424.262,"body":"So knowing this, , do you think they did"},{"startTime":1420.541,"endTime":1424.262,"body":"some damage, , designing the position"},{"startTime":1424.289,"endTime":1425.593,"body":"in this way with these restrictions?"},{"startTime":1425.662,"endTime":1426.576,"body":"okay, let's continue."},{"startTime":1426.619,"endTime":1430.662,"body":", scrum struck a magnificent bargain"},{"startTime":1426.619,"endTime":1430.662,"body":"in hostile territory management got"},{"startTime":1430.662,"endTime":1434.628,"body":"12 times per year, once per month to"},{"startTime":1430.662,"endTime":1434.628,"body":"change direction in any way they wanted."},{"startTime":1434.81,"endTime":1437.054,"body":"The team got one month of"},{"startTime":1434.81,"endTime":1437.054,"body":"quiet time with no interrupt."},{"startTime":1438.045,"endTime":1440.662,"body":", which, , I think I mentioned"},{"startTime":1438.045,"endTime":1440.662,"body":"earlier, , about not wanting"},{"startTime":1440.662,"endTime":1441.862,"body":"to collaborate headphones on."},{"startTime":1441.862,"endTime":1442.932,"body":"Go back to my dark hole."},{"startTime":1442.941,"endTime":1445.266,"body":"You, , you don't see anything"},{"startTime":1442.941,"endTime":1445.266,"body":"until all the work is done."},{"startTime":1445.501,"endTime":1449.883,"body":"Anyway, n no execs ever got a better"},{"startTime":1445.501,"endTime":1449.883,"body":"deal, , from here on E continues,"},{"startTime":1449.931,"endTime":1452.931,"body":", talking about commitments and, and why"},{"startTime":1449.931,"endTime":1452.931,"body":"they're bad and other stuff like that."},{"startTime":1452.975,"endTime":1457.065,"body":"So from what he's saying here, in, in the,"},{"startTime":1452.975,"endTime":1457.065,"body":"late nineties, early two thousands but"},{"startTime":1457.065,"endTime":1460.378,"body":"now we're at a point where management,"},{"startTime":1457.065,"endTime":1460.378,"body":"like management are the people laying down"},{"startTime":1460.378,"endTime":1463.56,"body":"the rules for Scrum and Agile and whate"},{"startTime":1460.378,"endTime":1463.56,"body":"whatever else is used at the company."},{"startTime":1463.769,"endTime":1465.047,"body":"So now what do we do now?"},{"startTime":1465.082,"endTime":1467.247,"body":"It is not so for product,"},{"startTime":1465.082,"endTime":1467.247,"body":"product in this space."},{"startTime":1467.56,"endTime":1470.056,"body":"So, , I'd also like to point"},{"startTime":1467.56,"endTime":1470.056,"body":"out that Alistair is a, is"},{"startTime":1470.06,"endTime":1471.099,"body":"he's a great follow on Twitter."},{"startTime":1471.099,"endTime":1472.508,"body":"He is very enlightening as well."},{"startTime":1472.551,"endTime":1474.351,"body":"To get here, I had to read"},{"startTime":1472.551,"endTime":1474.351,"body":"through a years worth of tweet."},{"startTime":1474.351,"endTime":1476.047,"body":"So  very interesting."},{"startTime":1476.117,"endTime":1477.76,"body":", plus he, he posts a lot"},{"startTime":1476.117,"endTime":1477.76,"body":"of like , literature and"},{"startTime":1477.76,"endTime":1478.543,"body":"research and stuff like that."},{"startTime":1478.543,"endTime":1479.56,"body":"That's very interesting to read."},{"startTime":1480.012,"endTime":1480.978,"body":"I'm amazed how much he tweets."},{"startTime":1480.978,"endTime":1484.238,"body":"So like, he must not be using the app to"},{"startTime":1480.978,"endTime":1484.238,"body":"do it because the interface is so clunky."},{"startTime":1484.457,"endTime":1487.153,"body":"he's probably just looking at some"},{"startTime":1484.457,"endTime":1487.153,"body":"of the, the sentences I think is"},{"startTime":1487.153,"endTime":1492.188,"body":"using a voice recognition thing"},{"startTime":1487.153,"endTime":1492.188,"body":"to tweet dictating in basically."},{"startTime":1492.944,"endTime":1494.614,"body":"I should just go peel"},{"startTime":1492.944,"endTime":1494.614,"body":"back to like tweet number."},{"startTime":1494.692,"endTime":1496.779,"body":"Four or five or six or whatever that 22"},{"startTime":1496.779,"endTime":1497.222,"body":"is important."},{"startTime":1497.222,"endTime":1497.822,"body":"Now read that"},{"startTime":1497.822,"endTime":1500.222,"body":"Scrum was invented to function"},{"startTime":1497.822,"endTime":1500.222,"body":"in hostile environments."},{"startTime":1500.562,"endTime":1503.822,"body":"It's a really interesting contract"},{"startTime":1500.562,"endTime":1503.822,"body":"between hard pushing execs and"},{"startTime":1503.822,"endTime":1505.075,"body":"devs needing time to think."},{"startTime":1506.092,"endTime":1506.275,"body":"Okay,"},{"startTime":1506.727,"endTime":1507.04,"body":"That's it."},{"startTime":1507.04,"endTime":1507.248,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1507.292,"endTime":1508.048,"body":"So where were we?"},{"startTime":1509.118,"endTime":1512.77,"body":"I brought that up to say don't you"},{"startTime":1509.118,"endTime":1512.77,"body":"think that that attitude is a little"},{"startTime":1512.77,"endTime":1516.788,"body":"shortsighted because if you're designing"},{"startTime":1512.77,"endTime":1516.788,"body":"your framework and you're trying to"},{"startTime":1516.788,"endTime":1519.359,"body":"operate in a hostile environment,"},{"startTime":1516.788,"endTime":1519.359,"body":"how much free rope are you gonna"},{"startTime":1519.359,"endTime":1523.481,"body":"get when you're specifically going"},{"startTime":1519.359,"endTime":1523.481,"body":"against the current culture and"},{"startTime":1523.481,"endTime":1525.672,"body":"saying like, we don't need project"},{"startTime":1523.481,"endTime":1525.672,"body":"managers, we're gonna cut them out."},{"startTime":1525.907,"endTime":1526.115,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1526.115,"endTime":1526.628,"body":"They don't usually"},{"startTime":1526.633,"endTime":1527.028,"body":"cut them out."},{"startTime":1527.028,"endTime":1527.707,"body":"They just rename"},{"startTime":1527.707,"endTime":1527.915,"body":"them."},{"startTime":1528.437,"endTime":1530.602,"body":"Well, they rename them and they"},{"startTime":1528.437,"endTime":1530.602,"body":"also scaled their role down a lot."},{"startTime":1530.95,"endTime":1534.472,"body":"I, I just see them renamed them and it's"},{"startTime":1530.95,"endTime":1534.472,"body":"just the same job with no explanation"},{"startTime":1534.476,"endTime":1535.802,"body":"and, and no training whatsoever."},{"startTime":1535.828,"endTime":1536.037,"body":"Well"},{"startTime":1536.246,"endTime":1540.55,"body":"that, I, I don't think that's true though,"},{"startTime":1536.246,"endTime":1540.55,"body":"because a typical project manager, like"},{"startTime":1541.098,"endTime":1543.359,"body":"all the tweets, I just read everything."},{"startTime":1544.894,"endTime":1545.207,"body":"Everything."},{"startTime":1545.207,"endTime":1548.32,"body":"He just explained, I was gonna say,"},{"startTime":1545.207,"endTime":1548.32,"body":"went on a tirade about everything"},{"startTime":1548.32,"endTime":1549.468,"body":"he just explained in those tweets."},{"startTime":1550.207,"endTime":1551.459,"body":"I think it's interesting."},{"startTime":1551.615,"endTime":1555.633,"body":"However, none of that works when the"},{"startTime":1551.615,"endTime":1555.633,"body":"project manager is the one funding"},{"startTime":1555.763,"endTime":1559.311,"body":"and controlling the budget of the"},{"startTime":1555.763,"endTime":1559.311,"body":"project., they're not gonna pay for a"},{"startTime":1559.572,"endTime":1563.528,"body":"junior project manager to just be the"},{"startTime":1559.572,"endTime":1563.528,"body":"go around . If they control the budget,"},{"startTime":1563.533,"endTime":1564.989,"body":"they basically can control the process."},{"startTime":1565.876,"endTime":1566.528,"body":"Yeah, inevitably."},{"startTime":1566.528,"endTime":1569.424,"body":"So, and when they do fund somebody"},{"startTime":1566.528,"endTime":1569.424,"body":"like that, they change the title."},{"startTime":1569.424,"endTime":1572.111,"body":"It's a project administrator who goes"},{"startTime":1569.424,"endTime":1572.111,"body":"around compiling reports and sure."},{"startTime":1572.346,"endTime":1573.963,"body":"Asking what's the percent done today."},{"startTime":1574.355,"endTime":1575.042,"body":"What  is it done yet?"},{"startTime":1575.198,"endTime":1575.798,"body":"That sort of thing."},{"startTime":1576.137,"endTime":1578.772,"body":"So it's not a project manager"},{"startTime":1576.137,"endTime":1578.772,"body":"cause you have to pay managers"},{"startTime":1578.772,"endTime":1580.076,"body":"more money than an administrator."},{"startTime":1580.842,"endTime":1583.993,"body":"I think you're talking about actually"},{"startTime":1580.842,"endTime":1583.993,"body":"really changing someone from one"},{"startTime":1583.993,"endTime":1587.123,"body":"role to another where my experience"},{"startTime":1583.993,"endTime":1587.123,"body":"is like, for instance, some SAFe"},{"startTime":1587.123,"endTime":1590.541,"body":"implementation where they just take"},{"startTime":1587.123,"endTime":1590.541,"body":"a project manager and rename them or"},{"startTime":1590.697,"endTime":1593.828,"body":"any kind of agile transformation and"},{"startTime":1590.697,"endTime":1593.828,"body":"say, okay, you are a project manager."},{"startTime":1593.828,"endTime":1594.949,"body":"Well, now you're a scrum master."},{"startTime":1595.054,"endTime":1597.036,"body":"Here you go with little to no training."},{"startTime":1597.088,"endTime":1598.002,"body":"So that's what I'm saying."},{"startTime":1598.006,"endTime":1601.915,"body":"And, and someone left to figure"},{"startTime":1598.006,"endTime":1601.915,"body":"out, well, how do I do, yeah, I"},{"startTime":1601.915,"endTime":1602.488,"body":"have seen that."},{"startTime":1602.567,"endTime":1604.497,"body":"I have seen that to your point"},{"startTime":1602.567,"endTime":1604.497,"body":"quite often, actually often."},{"startTime":1604.497,"endTime":1604.758,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1605.097,"endTime":1608.749,"body":"And even, even with a two day"},{"startTime":1605.097,"endTime":1608.749,"body":"class, when they come out, it's"},{"startTime":1608.749,"endTime":1609.975,"body":"they don't have the mindset change."},{"startTime":1610.236,"endTime":1613.523,"body":"They're still a project manager, just"},{"startTime":1610.236,"endTime":1613.523,"body":"with two days of training, they just"},{"startTime":1613.523,"endTime":1615.271,"body":"have more, more agile project manager."},{"startTime":1615.275,"endTime":1615.532,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1615.749,"endTime":1616.054,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1616.106,"endTime":1618.558,"body":"So what they do is they stick the"},{"startTime":1616.106,"endTime":1618.558,"body":"word agile to your point in front."},{"startTime":1618.584,"endTime":1620.636,"body":"So now they're an agile project"},{"startTime":1618.584,"endTime":1620.636,"body":"manager,  but they're still project"},{"startTime":1620.636,"endTime":1624.83,"body":"managers  saying , Hey, you can't"},{"startTime":1620.636,"endTime":1624.83,"body":"deploy scrum unless X, Y, Z, like"},{"startTime":1624.83,"endTime":1626.995,"body":"that, that kind of like holding"},{"startTime":1624.83,"endTime":1626.995,"body":"hostage or whatever like that."},{"startTime":1627.125,"endTime":1627.778,"body":"You okay."},{"startTime":1627.778,"endTime":1631.143,"body":"Well then we're not deploying scrum"},{"startTime":1627.778,"endTime":1631.143,"body":"that like, I think like a hundred"},{"startTime":1631.143,"endTime":1633.743,"body":"percent of the organizations I've"},{"startTime":1631.143,"endTime":1633.743,"body":"ever been in like that would be"},{"startTime":1633.743,"endTime":1635.099,"body":"the response, like mm-hmm  okay."},{"startTime":1635.099,"endTime":1635.986,"body":"Then we're not gonna do it."},{"startTime":1636.273,"endTime":1638.325,"body":"We'll do something that"},{"startTime":1636.273,"endTime":1638.325,"body":"we we'll do kanban badly."},{"startTime":1638.395,"endTime":1638.76,"body":"Oh yeah."},{"startTime":1638.804,"endTime":1642.173,"body":"The other thing they do is we say, well,"},{"startTime":1638.804,"endTime":1642.173,"body":"we like the boards cuz  they're visual."},{"startTime":1642.408,"endTime":1643.504,"body":"Yeah, we don't wanna do scrum."},{"startTime":1643.504,"endTime":1647.025,"body":"So we'll do this thing called"},{"startTime":1643.504,"endTime":1647.025,"body":"scrum ban and will bastardize both."},{"startTime":1647.104,"endTime":1647.495,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1648.173,"endTime":1651.73,"body":"And we'll just say, we'll hide"},{"startTime":1648.173,"endTime":1651.73,"body":"behind this facade of agile."},{"startTime":1651.86,"endTime":1653.06,"body":"We make it work for us."},{"startTime":1653.108,"endTime":1653.473,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1653.812,"endTime":1654.543,"body":"We make it work for us."},{"startTime":1654.543,"endTime":1656.943,"body":"We're gonna keep changing the rules"},{"startTime":1654.543,"endTime":1656.943,"body":"because that's what we feel like doing."},{"startTime":1656.943,"endTime":1657.83,"body":"And that's what agile is."},{"startTime":1657.83,"endTime":1658.117,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1658.195,"endTime":1658.743,"body":"Mm-hmm  well,"},{"startTime":1658.743,"endTime":1662.134,"body":"let let me let me take a, let me take"},{"startTime":1658.743,"endTime":1662.134,"body":"a role that I I don't know if I really"},{"startTime":1662.139,"endTime":1664.873,"body":"necessarily like playing on the podcast,"},{"startTime":1662.139,"endTime":1664.873,"body":"like how, how do we get past that?"},{"startTime":1665.152,"endTime":1666.378,"body":"You have a strong personality, right."},{"startTime":1666.378,"endTime":1668.047,"body":"And someone who, who has influence, right."},{"startTime":1668.091,"endTime":1669.917,"body":"This is not some random"},{"startTime":1668.091,"endTime":1669.917,"body":"person on the internet."},{"startTime":1669.96,"endTime":1671.056,"body":"Like shouting into the void."},{"startTime":1671.239,"endTime":1673.091,"body":"This is someone who's, the"},{"startTime":1671.239,"endTime":1673.091,"body":"voice carries some weight."},{"startTime":1673.091,"endTime":1674.578,"body":"Like, I mean, some weight,  maybe not."},{"startTime":1674.812,"endTime":1677.969,"body":"Like if, if they're, if they have"},{"startTime":1674.812,"endTime":1677.969,"body":"this attitude, like there's probably"},{"startTime":1677.973,"endTime":1678.934,"body":"other people with this attitude"},{"startTime":1679.004,"endTime":1683.386,"body":"how can I temper that to bring the"},{"startTime":1679.004,"endTime":1683.386,"body":"message to my organization, to, to make."},{"startTime":1683.917,"endTime":1687.934,"body":"To make advocates out of my leadership"},{"startTime":1683.917,"endTime":1687.934,"body":"team or out of the key managers or out"},{"startTime":1687.934,"endTime":1691.525,"body":"of people that I need to be online with"},{"startTime":1687.934,"endTime":1691.525,"body":"what I wanna do for the transformation."},{"startTime":1691.969,"endTime":1692.725,"body":"How can I do that?"},{"startTime":1692.769,"endTime":1696.682,"body":"At the same time that these"},{"startTime":1692.769,"endTime":1696.682,"body":"personalities are out there,"},{"startTime":1697.412,"endTime":1699.63,"body":"I think the first thing"},{"startTime":1697.412,"endTime":1699.63,"body":"is don't be dogmatic,"},{"startTime":1699.821,"endTime":1700.473,"body":"be pragmatic."},{"startTime":1700.473,"endTime":1702.873,"body":"Don't go in there and say,"},{"startTime":1700.473,"endTime":1702.873,"body":"we're gonna implement scrum."},{"startTime":1702.873,"endTime":1704.725,"body":"And here are all the things"},{"startTime":1702.873,"endTime":1704.725,"body":"that scrum is all about."},{"startTime":1705.012,"endTime":1707.934,"body":"Look at that and say, how"},{"startTime":1705.012,"endTime":1707.934,"body":"about we try these practices?"},{"startTime":1708.012,"endTime":1711.143,"body":"Don't use the word agile, if you don't"},{"startTime":1708.012,"endTime":1711.143,"body":"if you think, feel like they're going to"},{"startTime":1711.147,"endTime":1712.76,"body":"resist that mm-hmm , then don't use it."},{"startTime":1713.152,"endTime":1713.439,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1713.786,"endTime":1719.369,"body":"So tailor the delivery to what's palatable"},{"startTime":1713.786,"endTime":1719.369,"body":"initially, at least, and over time you can"},{"startTime":1719.369,"endTime":1723.569,"body":"introduce more and more concepts and say"},{"startTime":1719.369,"endTime":1723.569,"body":"what we've been practicing all along here,"},{"startTime":1723.978,"endTime":1728.36,"body":"while we're still in the shoe of the shoe"},{"startTime":1723.978,"endTime":1728.36,"body":"hire that, that is we're on the journey."},{"startTime":1728.36,"endTime":1729.795,"body":"We're now moving toward."},{"startTime":1730.212,"endTime":1731.83,"body":"Greater and greater and greater agility."},{"startTime":1731.83,"endTime":1731.882,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1731.908,"endTime":1732.508,"body":"Over time."},{"startTime":1732.873,"endTime":1736.456,"body":"Those people that are rather dogmatic,"},{"startTime":1732.873,"endTime":1736.456,"body":"they go in there and say, here it is."},{"startTime":1736.743,"endTime":1738.099,"body":"And by the way, this is called agile."},{"startTime":1738.099,"endTime":1739.952,"body":"And they go, this is"},{"startTime":1738.099,"endTime":1739.952,"body":"very, very prescriptive."},{"startTime":1739.956,"endTime":1741.752,"body":"What you're telling me is"},{"startTime":1739.956,"endTime":1741.752,"body":"do it this way or no way."},{"startTime":1741.804,"endTime":1742.091,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1742.221,"endTime":1742.43,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":1742.586,"endTime":1744.491,"body":"This is gonna be one of those edits"},{"startTime":1742.586,"endTime":1744.491,"body":"where I wish I didn't jump in."},{"startTime":1744.578,"endTime":1749.378,"body":"Where is the dividing line between"},{"startTime":1744.578,"endTime":1749.378,"body":"being dogmatic and having an"},{"startTime":1749.508,"endTime":1752.725,"body":"endstate vision in mind and pushing"},{"startTime":1749.508,"endTime":1752.725,"body":"them to the endstate vision."},{"startTime":1752.725,"endTime":1757.378,"body":"Because of what I think is you're"},{"startTime":1752.725,"endTime":1757.378,"body":"trying to get leadership to I'm"},{"startTime":1757.378,"endTime":1758.917,"body":"using leadership very loosely."},{"startTime":1758.986,"endTime":1763.812,"body":"You're trying to get executives to"},{"startTime":1758.986,"endTime":1763.812,"body":"follow you in your vision of, if we"},{"startTime":1763.812,"endTime":1767.204,"body":"do all this, this is the organization"},{"startTime":1763.812,"endTime":1767.204,"body":"that we will look like in the future."},{"startTime":1767.847,"endTime":1771.447,"body":"You probably know at least at a"},{"startTime":1767.847,"endTime":1771.447,"body":"high level, what that looks like."},{"startTime":1771.473,"endTime":1772.882,"body":"We're gonna have teams"},{"startTime":1771.473,"endTime":1772.882,"body":"that are gonna be in power."},{"startTime":1772.882,"endTime":1774.447,"body":"We're gonna have products that"},{"startTime":1772.882,"endTime":1774.447,"body":"gonna have product managers."},{"startTime":1774.604,"endTime":1775.856,"body":"They're gonna be the CEO of the product."},{"startTime":1775.899,"endTime":1776.421,"body":"That kind of stuff."},{"startTime":1776.734,"endTime":1778.117,"body":"You probably have a vision in mind."},{"startTime":1778.299,"endTime":1778.482,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1778.612,"endTime":1781.247,"body":"You gotta get 'em there, but you"},{"startTime":1778.612,"endTime":1781.247,"body":"don't wanna be dogmatic about it."},{"startTime":1781.378,"endTime":1784.821,"body":"But if you go about that process"},{"startTime":1781.378,"endTime":1784.821,"body":"being like, yeah, we can do"},{"startTime":1784.821,"endTime":1786.934,"body":"whatever works for you and all."},{"startTime":1787.491,"endTime":1788.812,"body":"Wait, wait, wait, wait."},{"startTime":1788.812,"endTime":1792.443,"body":"Those two are different things,  so I'm"},{"startTime":1788.812,"endTime":1792.443,"body":"not suggesting you, you say we'll just"},{"startTime":1792.443,"endTime":1794.112,"body":"make up stuff or we'll go wherever."},{"startTime":1794.112,"endTime":1799.825,"body":"No, but at the same time, even if you"},{"startTime":1794.112,"endTime":1799.825,"body":"have a vision in mind, if you go in day"},{"startTime":1799.83,"endTime":1802.617,"body":"one and say, this is where we're going,"},{"startTime":1799.83,"endTime":1802.617,"body":"this is where this is our end state."},{"startTime":1803.399,"endTime":1805.043,"body":"that may be too sudden for them."},{"startTime":1805.173,"endTime":1805.382,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":1805.512,"endTime":1805.825,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1806.008,"endTime":1809.217,"body":"So what I'm suggesting is, and this"},{"startTime":1806.008,"endTime":1809.217,"body":"is probably gonna be situational."},{"startTime":1809.452,"endTime":1812.243,"body":"You look at that and you say,"},{"startTime":1809.452,"endTime":1812.243,"body":"well, yeah, that is the end vision."},{"startTime":1812.243,"endTime":1816.052,"body":"But to get to that, what are"},{"startTime":1812.243,"endTime":1816.052,"body":"some steps I need to take and"},{"startTime":1816.599,"endTime":1818.217,"body":"break it down into pieces."},{"startTime":1818.269,"endTime":1818.373,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1818.425,"endTime":1818.712,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1818.712,"endTime":1819.991,"body":"And to use that cliche."},{"startTime":1819.991,"endTime":1820.199,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1820.208,"endTime":1824.408,"body":"Understand that it's a journey, but"},{"startTime":1820.208,"endTime":1824.408,"body":"get, get them to that first stop."},{"startTime":1824.46,"endTime":1826.604,"body":"I almost said base camp"},{"startTime":1824.46,"endTime":1826.604,"body":"get, get 'em to base camp."},{"startTime":1827.217,"endTime":1827.504,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1827.765,"endTime":1832.721,"body":"And then say, okay, look how far"},{"startTime":1827.765,"endTime":1832.721,"body":"we've come, but we're not there yet."},{"startTime":1832.799,"endTime":1833.895,"body":"We still have to go further."},{"startTime":1833.973,"endTime":1834.991,"body":"Here's the next base gap."},{"startTime":1834.995,"endTime":1837.521,"body":"So if you just show them the summit,"},{"startTime":1834.995,"endTime":1837.521,"body":"they're gonna get tired of it"},{"startTime":1837.521,"endTime":1838.93,"body":"right away and go that's too far."},{"startTime":1839.112,"endTime":1839.165,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1839.269,"endTime":1839.425,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1839.425,"endTime":1842.53,"body":"We don't have the appetite for that or"},{"startTime":1839.425,"endTime":1842.53,"body":"the budget for that or the political will."},{"startTime":1842.556,"endTime":1842.791,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1843.286,"endTime":1844.608,"body":"So I'd say, that's a great question."},{"startTime":1844.608,"endTime":1845.808,"body":"What is the dividing line?"},{"startTime":1845.834,"endTime":1847.139,"body":"It isn't a line."},{"startTime":1847.139,"endTime":1847.217,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1847.373,"endTime":1850.499,"body":"I think it's a continuum and"},{"startTime":1847.373,"endTime":1850.499,"body":"it's almost like a thermometer."},{"startTime":1850.499,"endTime":1853.369,"body":"You can check where you're at, right."},{"startTime":1853.369,"endTime":1857.769,"body":"Based on in person, you can see"},{"startTime":1853.369,"endTime":1857.769,"body":"where you've come to mm-hmm  and"},{"startTime":1857.769,"endTime":1860.091,"body":"based on that, you can say, wow,"},{"startTime":1857.769,"endTime":1860.091,"body":"my next step should be this."},{"startTime":1860.143,"endTime":1864.108,"body":"So we take that as a practical"},{"startTime":1860.143,"endTime":1864.108,"body":"thing, start with a team."},{"startTime":1864.317,"endTime":1864.473,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1864.795,"endTime":1866.378,"body":"Even though eventually"},{"startTime":1864.795,"endTime":1866.378,"body":"they're gonna need scale."},{"startTime":1867.108,"endTime":1869.117,"body":"But start with a team, get"},{"startTime":1867.108,"endTime":1869.117,"body":"them practicing sound, agile"},{"startTime":1869.117,"endTime":1870.812,"body":"principles first before you scale."},{"startTime":1870.839,"endTime":1873.291,"body":"I mean, everybody knows that,"},{"startTime":1870.839,"endTime":1873.291,"body":"you don't wanna scale the bad."},{"startTime":1873.691,"endTime":1874.552,"body":"So that's an example."},{"startTime":1874.578,"endTime":1877.212,"body":"So you wouldn't go and portray a"},{"startTime":1874.578,"endTime":1877.212,"body":"vision that what you see is this"},{"startTime":1877.552,"endTime":1880.134,"body":"massive release, train or trains."},{"startTime":1880.134,"endTime":1880.839,"body":"Mm-hmm  right."},{"startTime":1880.843,"endTime":1883.03,"body":"That you'll be lost there because"},{"startTime":1880.843,"endTime":1883.03,"body":"they're gonna say, oh, we have to"},{"startTime":1883.03,"endTime":1886.865,"body":"staff all these roles and these"},{"startTime":1883.03,"endTime":1886.865,"body":"high paying RTS, whatever they are."},{"startTime":1886.908,"endTime":1888.369,"body":"You don't wanna do that day one."},{"startTime":1888.995,"endTime":1889.725,"body":"That's what I would say."},{"startTime":1891.16,"endTime":1895.491,"body":"The first thing I think about is"},{"startTime":1891.16,"endTime":1895.491,"body":"coordinating with the organization with"},{"startTime":1895.495,"endTime":1902.352,"body":"management, with leadership and figuring"},{"startTime":1895.495,"endTime":1902.352,"body":"out,  Are they open to change, so if you"},{"startTime":1902.508,"endTime":1906.578,"body":"are saying we I'm, I'm trying to figure"},{"startTime":1902.508,"endTime":1906.578,"body":"out how to change this organization."},{"startTime":1906.578,"endTime":1909.456,"body":"We are gonna move towards"},{"startTime":1906.578,"endTime":1909.456,"body":"an agile towards agile."},{"startTime":1910.082,"endTime":1915.395,"body":"Is this completely kind of grassroots"},{"startTime":1910.082,"endTime":1915.395,"body":"bottom up change, or is this something"},{"startTime":1915.395,"endTime":1918.969,"body":"understood and being asked by,"},{"startTime":1915.395,"endTime":1918.969,"body":"asked for, by our leadership, right."},{"startTime":1918.969,"endTime":1922.439,"body":"Or someone in our leadership, maybe"},{"startTime":1918.969,"endTime":1922.439,"body":"there's a CTO or maybe there's some"},{"startTime":1922.439,"endTime":1927.265,"body":"other people of inter management"},{"startTime":1922.439,"endTime":1927.265,"body":"and, and, and then why is it because"},{"startTime":1927.265,"endTime":1930.525,"body":"they heard these buzzwords rate that"},{"startTime":1927.265,"endTime":1930.525,"body":"they were at a conference and all of"},{"startTime":1930.525,"endTime":1932.952,"body":"a sudden, yeah, we should be agile"},{"startTime":1930.525,"endTime":1932.952,"body":"because this is the thing to do."},{"startTime":1933.186,"endTime":1933.891,"body":"So why."},{"startTime":1933.891,"endTime":1934.152,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1934.152,"endTime":1938.012,"body":"But why, what problems are we"},{"startTime":1934.152,"endTime":1938.012,"body":"trying to solve as an organization?"},{"startTime":1938.017,"endTime":1940.934,"body":"Are you as leadership trying"},{"startTime":1938.017,"endTime":1940.934,"body":"to solve as an organization?"},{"startTime":1941.23,"endTime":1942.847,"body":"If you are buying into this, why."},{"startTime":1943.486,"endTime":1945.417,"body":"what problems are we trying to solve?"},{"startTime":1945.495,"endTime":1945.834,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1945.886,"endTime":1949.512,"body":"And so then if I can answer"},{"startTime":1945.886,"endTime":1949.512,"body":"those two things, then I wanna"},{"startTime":1949.512,"endTime":1951.834,"body":"get them to be on my side."},{"startTime":1951.834,"endTime":1951.886,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1951.912,"endTime":1954.312,"body":"I should be able to get"},{"startTime":1951.912,"endTime":1954.312,"body":"them to be partners with me."},{"startTime":1954.391,"endTime":1956.243,"body":"Mm-hmm  right now I move on to the house."},{"startTime":1956.247,"endTime":1957.782,"body":"So how do I get them to partner with me?"},{"startTime":1958.225,"endTime":1963.165,"body":"Well, they need data,  so yeah,"},{"startTime":1958.225,"endTime":1963.165,"body":"before we do any changes, right."},{"startTime":1963.165,"endTime":1966.139,"body":"What I'm going to need to do is if"},{"startTime":1963.165,"endTime":1966.139,"body":"I've determined, okay, we have buy-in"},{"startTime":1966.143,"endTime":1970.182,"body":"from leadership and we have a solid"},{"startTime":1966.143,"endTime":1970.182,"body":"rationale as to why we have some problems"},{"startTime":1970.182,"endTime":1973.469,"body":"we wanna solve, and we wanna move"},{"startTime":1970.182,"endTime":1973.469,"body":"towards what Mo solving those problems."},{"startTime":1973.469,"endTime":1976.895,"body":"And we think that agile and"},{"startTime":1973.469,"endTime":1976.895,"body":"whatever framework you choose is"},{"startTime":1976.895,"endTime":1979.504,"body":"the way that, that, that could"},{"startTime":1976.895,"endTime":1979.504,"body":"help us to move in that direction."},{"startTime":1979.547,"endTime":1983.721,"body":"So now I would start saying,"},{"startTime":1979.547,"endTime":1983.721,"body":"okay, how could I gather,"},{"startTime":1983.725,"endTime":1984.921,"body":"or what data could I gather?"},{"startTime":1985.378,"endTime":1991.421,"body":"To show by comparison, by comparing"},{"startTime":1985.378,"endTime":1991.421,"body":"information and data that we have thus"},{"startTime":1991.421,"endTime":1994.839,"body":"far in our organization, assuming this has"},{"startTime":1991.421,"endTime":1994.839,"body":"been something this is in Greenfield and"},{"startTime":1994.839,"endTime":1999.56,"body":"something we have, we can pull information"},{"startTime":1994.839,"endTime":1999.56,"body":"from, and then now let's create some"},{"startTime":1999.565,"endTime":2006.056,"body":"hypotheses and, and create some new data"},{"startTime":1999.565,"endTime":2006.056,"body":"based on the hypotheses that we're making."},{"startTime":2006.525,"endTime":2010.647,"body":"And then show the differences that we"},{"startTime":2006.525,"endTime":2010.647,"body":"think we potentially could attain right."},{"startTime":2010.647,"endTime":2011.743,"body":"By implementing this."},{"startTime":2011.743,"endTime":2013.356,"body":"So these are all hypotheses at this point."},{"startTime":2013.356,"endTime":2013.434,"body":"Sure."},{"startTime":2013.434,"endTime":2014.321,"body":"So we have no hard data."},{"startTime":2014.321,"endTime":2016.617,"body":"We have input, but we don't"},{"startTime":2014.321,"endTime":2016.617,"body":"have the output yet, but we can"},{"startTime":2016.617,"endTime":2020.791,"body":"hypothesize that output based on"},{"startTime":2016.617,"endTime":2020.791,"body":"potentially our organization or"},{"startTime":2020.791,"endTime":2022.199,"body":"other organizations similarly."},{"startTime":2022.617,"endTime":2025.539,"body":"And then finally, and this leads"},{"startTime":2022.617,"endTime":2025.539,"body":"into what you were saying is."},{"startTime":2026.23,"endTime":2029.569,"body":"Start small one team or one department."},{"startTime":2029.595,"endTime":2029.856,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2029.856,"endTime":2031.995,"body":"And that's the way I would"},{"startTime":2029.856,"endTime":2031.995,"body":"approach leadership saying this"},{"startTime":2032.047,"endTime":2034.317,"body":"isn't something we can transition."},{"startTime":2034.604,"endTime":2036.186,"body":"And this is and this is really dependent."},{"startTime":2036.186,"endTime":2037.778,"body":"Maybe our whole organization is one team."},{"startTime":2037.782,"endTime":2038.299,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":2038.482,"endTime":2038.769,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2038.847,"endTime":2038.899,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2038.952,"endTime":2042.812,"body":"But if we assuming this is a moderate"},{"startTime":2038.952,"endTime":2042.812,"body":"to large size organization, or, and"},{"startTime":2042.812,"endTime":2047.247,"body":"we have multiple teams or multiple"},{"startTime":2042.812,"endTime":2047.247,"body":"departments, I would also come to them."},{"startTime":2047.247,"endTime":2050.534,"body":"If I'm trying to get them to buy in"},{"startTime":2047.247,"endTime":2050.534,"body":"and say, you know what we are going"},{"startTime":2050.534,"endTime":2051.604,"body":"to take, we're gonna make a bet."},{"startTime":2051.656,"endTime":2052.752,"body":"We're gonna make a small bet."},{"startTime":2053.143,"endTime":2056.221,"body":"What is that small experiment that"},{"startTime":2053.143,"endTime":2056.221,"body":"we wanna do with a team or with a"},{"startTime":2056.221,"endTime":2061.725,"body":"department, and do that experiment and"},{"startTime":2056.221,"endTime":2061.725,"body":"see if our hypotheses kind of bore out"},{"startTime":2061.96,"endTime":2065.012,"body":"and give ourselves enough time to do"},{"startTime":2061.96,"endTime":2065.012,"body":"that, thinking that we do need to go"},{"startTime":2065.012,"endTime":2068.012,"body":"through that kind of forming storming,"},{"startTime":2065.012,"endTime":2068.012,"body":"norming, transforming kind of thing too."},{"startTime":2068.012,"endTime":2069.239,"body":"So we need to allow for that."},{"startTime":2069.499,"endTime":2073.986,"body":"So I think those, those are the, those are"},{"startTime":2069.499,"endTime":2073.986,"body":"my thoughts in regards to the, the entire"},{"startTime":2073.986,"endTime":2076.073,"body":"process over obviously a period of time."},{"startTime":2076.412,"endTime":2076.752,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2076.752,"endTime":2078.291,"body":"And I agree fully what you said."},{"startTime":2078.291,"endTime":2082.595,"body":"I think the thing to remember is that"},{"startTime":2078.291,"endTime":2082.595,"body":"that very first you call it an experiment,"},{"startTime":2082.595,"endTime":2083.665,"body":"which is a good way to look at it."},{"startTime":2083.821,"endTime":2086.273,"body":"But that very first team that"},{"startTime":2083.821,"endTime":2086.273,"body":"you're working with in an."},{"startTime":2087.056,"endTime":2087.943,"body":"All eyes are on them."},{"startTime":2087.995,"endTime":2090.965,"body":"And so it's absolutely critical"},{"startTime":2087.995,"endTime":2090.965,"body":"to, to nail that,  mm-hmm  and"},{"startTime":2090.965,"endTime":2092.165,"body":"make it a showcase success."},{"startTime":2092.399,"endTime":2094.773,"body":"Otherwise you're gonna find"},{"startTime":2092.399,"endTime":2094.773,"body":"all the naysayers will come"},{"startTime":2094.778,"endTime":2096.312,"body":"out and say it doesn't work."},{"startTime":2096.317,"endTime":2097.33,"body":"Or here's a good one."},{"startTime":2097.425,"endTime":2098.06,"body":"Here is what I found."},{"startTime":2098.06,"endTime":2101.191,"body":"They say, we understand all this agile"},{"startTime":2098.06,"endTime":2101.191,"body":"stuff that you're talking about, but"},{"startTime":2101.191,"endTime":2102.573,"body":"it doesn't work here cuz we are unique."},{"startTime":2102.73,"endTime":2103.408,"body":"It doesn't work here."},{"startTime":2103.46,"endTime":2103.747,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2104.034,"endTime":2105.521,"body":"We've tried it before"},{"startTime":2104.034,"endTime":2105.521,"body":"a couple of years ago."},{"startTime":2105.86,"endTime":2109.982,"body":"So if you nail that first one, you can"},{"startTime":2105.86,"endTime":2109.982,"body":"bring people over to your side, especially"},{"startTime":2109.982,"endTime":2111.156,"body":"those that are sitting on the fence."},{"startTime":2111.156,"endTime":2112.33,"body":"Cuz you're gonna have people in your camp."},{"startTime":2112.539,"endTime":2115.017,"body":"You're gonna have people outside"},{"startTime":2112.539,"endTime":2115.017,"body":"on your opposite side, basically"},{"startTime":2115.021,"endTime":2116.425,"body":"just standing there looking sure."},{"startTime":2116.504,"endTime":2120.104,"body":"But if the first one is a success,"},{"startTime":2116.504,"endTime":2120.104,"body":"then I think that is a you're"},{"startTime":2120.104,"endTime":2121.278,"body":"on your way at that point."},{"startTime":2121.339,"endTime":2123.843,"body":"There's two things I wanna challenge,"},{"startTime":2121.339,"endTime":2123.843,"body":"which is that we can't, we have to"},{"startTime":2123.843,"endTime":2127.156,"body":"transform small cause people, I feel"},{"startTime":2123.843,"endTime":2127.156,"body":"like people that buy the safe model."},{"startTime":2127.625,"endTime":2128.069,"body":"Yeah, right."},{"startTime":2128.069,"endTime":2128.225,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2128.225,"endTime":2128.434,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2128.434,"endTime":2129.269,"body":"Like everyone does that."},{"startTime":2129.295,"endTime":2129.53,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2129.53,"endTime":2134.691,"body":"But the safe model represents"},{"startTime":2129.53,"endTime":2134.691,"body":"like 30% of the scaling market."},{"startTime":2134.691,"endTime":2136.021,"body":"I don't even know what"},{"startTime":2134.691,"endTime":2136.021,"body":"the scaling market means."},{"startTime":2136.073,"endTime":2136.621,"body":"What does that mean?"},{"startTime":2136.647,"endTime":2137.665,"body":"Does that mean certifications is,"},{"startTime":2137.665,"endTime":2138.43,"body":"I don't even know what that means."},{"startTime":2138.43,"endTime":2140.83,"body":"People, people using some kind of"},{"startTime":2138.43,"endTime":2140.83,"body":"scaling framework means don't know."},{"startTime":2140.83,"endTime":2141.891,"body":"It means definitely they're the market"},{"startTime":2141.895,"endTime":2142.334,"body":"leaders here."},{"startTime":2142.386,"endTime":2142.569,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2142.569,"endTime":2145.482,"body":"They're the market leaders in scaling,"},{"startTime":2142.569,"endTime":2145.482,"body":"obviously like aside from the fact that"},{"startTime":2145.486,"endTime":2148.543,"body":"people that buy the framework want to just"},{"startTime":2145.486,"endTime":2148.543,"body":"layer it over their command-and-control"},{"startTime":2148.56,"endTime":2152.473,"body":"and, and call it, call it done mission,"},{"startTime":2148.56,"endTime":2152.473,"body":"mission accomplished aside from that."},{"startTime":2152.847,"endTime":2154.278,"body":"Let's say we're in an"},{"startTime":2152.847,"endTime":2154.278,"body":"organization with a thousand."},{"startTime":2154.878,"endTime":2155.165,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2155.191,"endTime":2158.034,"body":"Like a, not a small organization at all."},{"startTime":2158.06,"endTime":2158.295,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2158.295,"endTime":2158.834,"body":"Mm-hmm  thousand people."},{"startTime":2159.625,"endTime":2163.33,"body":"I mean, can we not like bring"},{"startTime":2159.625,"endTime":2163.33,"body":"in an army of consultants?"},{"startTime":2163.373,"endTime":2168.199,"body":"I'll bring in 10 product managers and"},{"startTime":2163.373,"endTime":2168.199,"body":"10 scrum masters and have them partner"},{"startTime":2168.204,"endTime":2173.025,"body":"with my current people to transform"},{"startTime":2168.204,"endTime":2173.025,"body":"the organization basically overnight."},{"startTime":2173.495,"endTime":2174.434,"body":"Could you handle it all at once?"},{"startTime":2174.434,"endTime":2175.504,"body":"Do you have to deal with it?"},{"startTime":2175.765,"endTime":2178.347,"body":"In a small kind of one team"},{"startTime":2175.765,"endTime":2178.347,"body":"at a time kind of controlled"},{"startTime":2178.347,"endTime":2178.634,"body":"manner?"},{"startTime":2178.791,"endTime":2181.295,"body":"That big bang type of approach,"},{"startTime":2178.791,"endTime":2181.295,"body":"really just what that is, right."},{"startTime":2181.295,"endTime":2184.399,"body":"Come in, solve that problems overnight,"},{"startTime":2181.295,"endTime":2184.399,"body":"bring in an army of people, first"},{"startTime":2184.399,"endTime":2186.86,"body":"of all, it's that BI versus or"},{"startTime":2184.399,"endTime":2186.86,"body":"anything, but we'll get back to that."},{"startTime":2187.225,"endTime":2187.93,"body":"Can you try that?"},{"startTime":2187.93,"endTime":2191.399,"body":"You can try that, but when you've got"},{"startTime":2187.93,"endTime":2191.399,"body":"people that are fundamentally resisting"},{"startTime":2191.399,"endTime":2195.078,"body":"change in the organization, when you"},{"startTime":2191.399,"endTime":2195.078,"body":"bring in a bunch of people in there,"},{"startTime":2195.286,"endTime":2197.034,"body":"how do the existing staff perceive that?"},{"startTime":2197.034,"endTime":2197.739,"body":"First of all right."},{"startTime":2197.973,"endTime":2199.791,"body":"They're gonna think,"},{"startTime":2197.973,"endTime":2199.791,"body":"well what does this mean?"},{"startTime":2199.921,"endTime":2200.025,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2200.156,"endTime":2201.017,"body":"Is my job safe?"},{"startTime":2201.208,"endTime":2205.278,"body":"So immediately people will be on the"},{"startTime":2201.208,"endTime":2205.278,"body":"defensive and change adaptation is gonna"},{"startTime":2205.278,"endTime":2206.765,"body":"be a big challenge in that scenario."},{"startTime":2206.765,"endTime":2208.66,"body":"Firstly that's what I"},{"startTime":2206.765,"endTime":2208.66,"body":"would say,  that, that."},{"startTime":2209.378,"endTime":2212.691,"body":"A cultural thing, culture of an"},{"startTime":2209.378,"endTime":2212.691,"body":"organization doesn't change overnight."},{"startTime":2212.743,"endTime":2217.134,"body":"Mm-hmm , it takes a long time to change"},{"startTime":2212.743,"endTime":2217.134,"body":"culture, you can influence the culture by"},{"startTime":2217.134,"endTime":2220.534,"body":"other things like changing the structure"},{"startTime":2217.134,"endTime":2220.534,"body":"and maybe some of the behaviors right."},{"startTime":2220.691,"endTime":2223.352,"body":"Of everybody really, but"},{"startTime":2220.691,"endTime":2223.352,"body":"largely from leadership."},{"startTime":2223.665,"endTime":2224.682,"body":"So can you do that?"},{"startTime":2225.386,"endTime":2226.847,"body":"I haven't seen evidence of that."},{"startTime":2227.091,"endTime":2228.343,"body":"I haven't seen that work."},{"startTime":2228.343,"endTime":2228.395,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2228.447,"endTime":2231.03,"body":"I don't think I've even seen"},{"startTime":2228.447,"endTime":2231.03,"body":"it tried because fundamentally"},{"startTime":2231.034,"endTime":2232.334,"body":"the organization has to commit."},{"startTime":2232.647,"endTime":2235.643,"body":"They have to commit and say, we"},{"startTime":2232.647,"endTime":2235.643,"body":"are gonna spend all these dollars."},{"startTime":2235.799,"endTime":2236.599,"body":"Probably a lot of dollars."},{"startTime":2236.765,"endTime":2237.017,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2237.017,"endTime":2240.891,"body":"A lot to have people come in and, and"},{"startTime":2237.017,"endTime":2240.891,"body":"immediately start showing results, which"},{"startTime":2240.891,"endTime":2244.673,"body":"for all the reasons I've already gone on"},{"startTime":2240.891,"endTime":2244.673,"body":"about, they're not evident very quickly."},{"startTime":2244.83,"endTime":2246.578,"body":"Mm-hmm  so what does that mean?"},{"startTime":2246.734,"endTime":2249.499,"body":"They'll stop writing the check"},{"startTime":2246.734,"endTime":2249.499,"body":"and they'll say you failed."},{"startTime":2249.812,"endTime":2249.943,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2249.943,"endTime":2251.978,"body":"And they'll fire the organization"},{"startTime":2249.943,"endTime":2251.978,"body":"that's coming in to help."},{"startTime":2251.978,"endTime":2252.473,"body":"'em good."},{"startTime":2252.473,"endTime":2252.682,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2252.891,"endTime":2253.125,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2253.934,"endTime":2254.821,"body":"So I'll respond."},{"startTime":2254.825,"endTime":2258.76,"body":"And that I would say that in an"},{"startTime":2254.825,"endTime":2258.76,"body":"organization of a thousand people"},{"startTime":2259.265,"endTime":2262.995,"body":"we're trying to prove to management"},{"startTime":2259.265,"endTime":2262.995,"body":"leadership, that this is a model that's"},{"startTime":2262.995,"endTime":2264.769,"body":"going to benefit our organization."},{"startTime":2265.717,"endTime":2268.795,"body":"And they've partnered with, we've gotten"},{"startTime":2265.717,"endTime":2268.795,"body":"them to agree and say, you know what?"},{"startTime":2268.795,"endTime":2270.047,"body":"I can see where this would make sense."},{"startTime":2270.047,"endTime":2272.134,"body":"We've gotten with them to partner with us."},{"startTime":2272.239,"endTime":2275.291,"body":"But, and, and I, and I would"},{"startTime":2272.239,"endTime":2275.291,"body":"caveat with this was saying that"},{"startTime":2275.343,"endTime":2277.456,"body":"context has a lot to do with this."},{"startTime":2277.586,"endTime":2280.456,"body":"Is this a company that's getting ready"},{"startTime":2277.586,"endTime":2280.456,"body":"to go under, unless we make some huge"},{"startTime":2280.456,"endTime":2281.865,"body":"change and we're ready to invest."},{"startTime":2281.865,"endTime":2285.808,"body":"And, and so, I mean, so contextually,"},{"startTime":2281.865,"endTime":2285.808,"body":"I think there's a lot, there's a"},{"startTime":2285.812,"endTime":2289.512,"body":"lot to be gleaned from that as to"},{"startTime":2285.812,"endTime":2289.512,"body":"what approach we would make and the"},{"startTime":2289.512,"endTime":2290.634,"body":"buy-in that we have from leadership."},{"startTime":2290.634,"endTime":2294.573,"body":"So besides that though, big bang"},{"startTime":2290.634,"endTime":2294.573,"body":"will I'll use that term, which"},{"startTime":2294.578,"endTime":2297.852,"body":"is something we use a lot in, in"},{"startTime":2294.578,"endTime":2297.852,"body":"healthcare in regards to transition."},{"startTime":2297.852,"endTime":2298.321,"body":"But sure."},{"startTime":2298.921,"endTime":2304.13,"body":"If we're doing big bang, we're,"},{"startTime":2298.921,"endTime":2304.13,"body":"we're talking high risk and and, and"},{"startTime":2304.182,"endTime":2309.165,"body":"high cost, mm-hmm,  a lot to lose a"},{"startTime":2304.182,"endTime":2309.165,"body":"lot to lose, even though it's with"},{"startTime":2309.165,"endTime":2309.895,"body":"the allure of high"},{"startTime":2309.895,"endTime":2310.443,"body":"reward."},{"startTime":2310.443,"endTime":2311.095,"body":"Correct?"},{"startTime":2311.199,"endTime":2311.304,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2311.304,"endTime":2318.204,"body":"So you're making a huge bet, which in my"},{"startTime":2311.304,"endTime":2318.204,"body":"mind,  is almost, it becomes anti agile."},{"startTime":2318.908,"endTime":2319.169,"body":"right."},{"startTime":2319.325,"endTime":2321.786,"body":"Where or, or, or anti scrum."},{"startTime":2321.791,"endTime":2326.06,"body":"If so, what was, was it Ken Schwaber"},{"startTime":2321.791,"endTime":2326.06,"body":"that, that said I guarantee that we"},{"startTime":2326.06,"endTime":2327.443,"body":"will fail within 30 days or less."},{"startTime":2327.652,"endTime":2329.008,"body":"That I think it was"},{"startTime":2327.652,"endTime":2329.008,"body":"something to that effect."},{"startTime":2329.008,"endTime":2331.799,"body":"I don't know the exact quote, but,"},{"startTime":2329.008,"endTime":2331.799,"body":"but basically what he was saying."},{"startTime":2331.799,"endTime":2335.008,"body":"And this is 20 plus years ago"},{"startTime":2331.799,"endTime":2335.008,"body":"where we had three year long plans"},{"startTime":2335.008,"endTime":2337.695,"body":"that were failing after we spent"},{"startTime":2335.008,"endTime":2337.695,"body":"three years of time and money on."},{"startTime":2337.799,"endTime":2339.208,"body":"And that was very enticing."},{"startTime":2339.208,"endTime":2339.495,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2339.791,"endTime":2344.612,"body":"So what I would say is we hear these"},{"startTime":2339.791,"endTime":2344.612,"body":"terms like fail small and fail fast."},{"startTime":2344.612,"endTime":2348.734,"body":"And that's really where that comes from"},{"startTime":2344.612,"endTime":2348.734,"body":"is because we were taking these enormous"},{"startTime":2348.734,"endTime":2355.099,"body":"resources where we had time money spent"},{"startTime":2348.734,"endTime":2355.099,"body":"and a lot of transition in the market,"},{"startTime":2355.099,"endTime":2360.369,"body":"in the technology that was surpassing"},{"startTime":2355.099,"endTime":2360.369,"body":"what we had planned out in the beginning."},{"startTime":2360.586,"endTime":2364.595,"body":"And so that would be my, that would"},{"startTime":2360.586,"endTime":2364.595,"body":"be my argument to that is to say from"},{"startTime":2364.595,"endTime":2368.739,"body":"an agile and a scrum perspective that"},{"startTime":2364.595,"endTime":2368.739,"body":"we wanna take a small risk to our"},{"startTime":2368.739,"endTime":2373.608,"body":"organization and a small risk financially,"},{"startTime":2368.739,"endTime":2373.608,"body":"and that would be the benefit to that."},{"startTime":2374.052,"endTime":2377.965,"body":"Again, I'll go back to my caveat"},{"startTime":2374.052,"endTime":2377.965,"body":"and saying, there may be some"},{"startTime":2377.969,"endTime":2381.273,"body":"really some valid argument to saying"},{"startTime":2377.969,"endTime":2381.273,"body":"what big, Bang's the way to go."},{"startTime":2381.273,"endTime":2382.995,"body":"We're just going to, we're"},{"startTime":2381.273,"endTime":2382.995,"body":"gonna jump in and do this."},{"startTime":2382.995,"endTime":2385.186,"body":"It's all in because we're"},{"startTime":2382.995,"endTime":2385.186,"body":"getting ready to lose it all."},{"startTime":2385.186,"endTime":2386.525,"body":"If we don't maybe"},{"startTime":2386.899,"endTime":2389.169,"body":"The last thing on here, I don't really"},{"startTime":2386.899,"endTime":2389.169,"body":"know where it fits when I was talking"},{"startTime":2389.169,"endTime":2390.734,"body":"about like missionary versus mercenaries."},{"startTime":2390.782,"endTime":2392.556,"body":"To shortcut me to where I want to go."},{"startTime":2392.608,"endTime":2396.052,"body":"I want to bring in people who"},{"startTime":2392.608,"endTime":2396.052,"body":"already agree kind of what you"},{"startTime":2396.052,"endTime":2396.965,"body":"were saying with a management."},{"startTime":2396.965,"endTime":2400.017,"body":"Like manager's gonna bring in people"},{"startTime":2396.965,"endTime":2400.017,"body":"that already agree with their style"},{"startTime":2400.021,"endTime":2401.399,"body":"and their, the way they want do things."},{"startTime":2401.582,"endTime":2403.225,"body":"Like I am gonna seek."},{"startTime":2403.278,"endTime":2405.286,"body":"If I want to go through a"},{"startTime":2403.278,"endTime":2405.286,"body":"transformation that's effective,"},{"startTime":2405.547,"endTime":2408.939,"body":"I'm gonna seek to go pull in people,"},{"startTime":2405.547,"endTime":2408.939,"body":"at least in the short term, at"},{"startTime":2408.939,"endTime":2410.112,"body":"least you have the skills to train."},{"startTime":2410.139,"endTime":2412.278,"body":"Even if I don't plan to keep"},{"startTime":2410.139,"endTime":2412.278,"body":"them, if they're consultants or"},{"startTime":2412.278,"endTime":2413.712,"body":"whatever, I'm gonna bring them in."},{"startTime":2413.717,"endTime":2417.312,"body":"And then couple them with my people"},{"startTime":2413.717,"endTime":2417.312,"body":"so that they can teach my people"},{"startTime":2417.312,"endTime":2419.608,"body":"how to do the job that they know"},{"startTime":2417.312,"endTime":2419.608,"body":"how to do for a period of time."},{"startTime":2419.608,"endTime":2422.539,"body":"I mean like any job you go to, you need"},{"startTime":2419.608,"endTime":2422.539,"body":"training,  so if you're gonna go through"},{"startTime":2422.539,"endTime":2426.373,"body":"this transformation and you're gonna take"},{"startTime":2422.539,"endTime":2426.373,"body":"all your, all my project managers are"},{"startTime":2426.373,"endTime":2429.721,"body":"scrum masters to give the worst example"},{"startTime":2426.373,"endTime":2429.721,"body":"that I possibly could give or all my."},{"startTime":2430.465,"endTime":2436.821,"body":"Customer service reps or whatever are"},{"startTime":2430.465,"endTime":2436.821,"body":"product owners or all X is now Y right."},{"startTime":2437.039,"endTime":2437.925,"body":"They're all product owners now."},{"startTime":2437.925,"endTime":2439.856,"body":"Like they don't know what"},{"startTime":2437.925,"endTime":2439.856,"body":"the job of product owner is."},{"startTime":2439.856,"endTime":2441.708,"body":"They don't know what"},{"startTime":2439.856,"endTime":2441.708,"body":"advocacy is for a customer."},{"startTime":2441.708,"endTime":2443.743,"body":"They probably know what it is, but"},{"startTime":2441.708,"endTime":2443.743,"body":"they haven't given labels to it."},{"startTime":2443.795,"endTime":2447.186,"body":"And they probably are not trained"},{"startTime":2443.795,"endTime":2447.186,"body":"in any kind of certification"},{"startTime":2447.186,"endTime":2448.021,"body":"or , any of that kind of stuff."},{"startTime":2448.073,"endTime":2452.482,"body":"So I'm gonna bring in people who have"},{"startTime":2448.073,"endTime":2452.482,"body":"done the job before to sit with them."},{"startTime":2452.586,"endTime":2454.004,"body":"You're just gonna sit next to this person."},{"startTime":2454.004,"endTime":2456.195,"body":"And basically peer it's"},{"startTime":2454.004,"endTime":2456.195,"body":"not peer programming."},{"startTime":2456.195,"endTime":2459.743,"body":"It's the product manager equivalent of"},{"startTime":2456.195,"endTime":2459.743,"body":"peer programming, peer product manager."},{"startTime":2460.382,"endTime":2460.721,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2461.034,"endTime":2462.365,"body":"Yeah, no, I think that makes"},{"startTime":2462.365,"endTime":2466.252,"body":"sense to, to, so to trend"},{"startTime":2462.365,"endTime":2466.252,"body":"you're a translator."},{"startTime":2466.669,"endTime":2466.93,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2466.93,"endTime":2467.165,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2467.634,"endTime":2468.678,"body":"Well, you're also a trainer."},{"startTime":2468.678,"endTime":2469.382,"body":"I mean, you're a yeah."},{"startTime":2469.382,"endTime":2470.269,"body":"Trainer, whatever you"},{"startTime":2470.391,"endTime":2471.782,"body":"wanna call it, a mentor, whatever."},{"startTime":2471.782,"endTime":2477.782,"body":"But, you're helping someone to"},{"startTime":2471.782,"endTime":2477.782,"body":"understand their the preconceptions"},{"startTime":2477.808,"endTime":2481.252,"body":"and the biases that they bring in"},{"startTime":2477.808,"endTime":2481.252,"body":"mm-hmm  along with their collective"},{"startTime":2481.256,"endTime":2488.034,"body":"experience in their career and helping"},{"startTime":2481.256,"endTime":2488.034,"body":"them to figure out where that fits into"},{"startTime":2488.034,"endTime":2494.286,"body":"their current role and also potentially"},{"startTime":2488.034,"endTime":2494.286,"body":"learning about them over and above."},{"startTime":2494.795,"endTime":2500.882,"body":"What's expected of them and how those"},{"startTime":2494.795,"endTime":2500.882,"body":"other experiences and in their career or,"},{"startTime":2501.186,"endTime":2505.073,"body":"or other bodies of knowledge may actually"},{"startTime":2501.186,"endTime":2505.073,"body":"help the organization overarching."},{"startTime":2505.073,"endTime":2509.099,"body":"And maybe bringing that back up too"},{"startTime":2505.073,"endTime":2509.099,"body":"leadership and saying, Hey, did you know?"},{"startTime":2509.099,"endTime":2512.882,"body":"I mean, this could be a really great"},{"startTime":2509.099,"endTime":2512.882,"body":"opportunity for you to tap this resource."},{"startTime":2513.178,"endTime":2518.378,"body":"I think there that model of bringing in"},{"startTime":2513.178,"endTime":2518.378,"body":"expertise to basically catalyze change"},{"startTime":2518.378,"endTime":2521.925,"body":"in your organization, that works really"},{"startTime":2518.378,"endTime":2521.925,"body":"well because it's not gonna happen"},{"startTime":2521.925,"endTime":2523.047,"body":"if it was gonna happen internally."},{"startTime":2523.047,"endTime":2523.856,"body":"It would've done by now."},{"startTime":2524.012,"endTime":2527.282,"body":"So bring people in I, I wouldn't"},{"startTime":2524.012,"endTime":2527.282,"body":"call it contractors, even though"},{"startTime":2527.325,"endTime":2528.699,"body":"contractually that's what it is."},{"startTime":2528.708,"endTime":2531.195,"body":"But they're, they're trusted"},{"startTime":2528.708,"endTime":2531.195,"body":"advisors at that point."},{"startTime":2531.195,"endTime":2533.639,"body":"Mm-hmm , especially at, at a"},{"startTime":2531.195,"endTime":2533.639,"body":"higher level, the leadership level."},{"startTime":2533.643,"endTime":2533.717,"body":"Yes."},{"startTime":2534.012,"endTime":2537.43,"body":"Partnering with them and really"},{"startTime":2534.012,"endTime":2537.43,"body":"steering them in the direction"},{"startTime":2537.434,"endTime":2539.543,"body":"where they are themselves."},{"startTime":2539.752,"endTime":2542.465,"body":"The executives themselves are now."},{"startTime":2542.908,"endTime":2546.117,"body":"Focusing down in the organization"},{"startTime":2542.908,"endTime":2546.117,"body":"saying, listen to this guy or these"},{"startTime":2546.117,"endTime":2549.143,"body":"people or this company, and we're"},{"startTime":2546.117,"endTime":2549.143,"body":"gonna follow what they're saying."},{"startTime":2549.247,"endTime":2551.725,"body":"So you're gonna get less resistance"},{"startTime":2549.247,"endTime":2551.725,"body":"because now the leadership is"},{"startTime":2551.725,"endTime":2553.134,"body":"directing people to go that way."},{"startTime":2553.139,"endTime":2556.978,"body":"Mm-hmm  for a period of time and"},{"startTime":2553.139,"endTime":2556.978,"body":"over that period of time, if you are"},{"startTime":2556.978,"endTime":2560.908,"body":"a responsible  consultant, what you"},{"startTime":2556.978,"endTime":2560.908,"body":"would do is you would, you would enable"},{"startTime":2561.352,"endTime":2565.491,"body":"the employees of that organization"},{"startTime":2561.352,"endTime":2565.491,"body":"to be self running for after a while."},{"startTime":2565.491,"endTime":2565.752,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2566.091,"endTime":2569.534,"body":"If you're not such a good consultant,"},{"startTime":2566.091,"endTime":2569.534,"body":"you are just vested in yourself."},{"startTime":2569.778,"endTime":2571.73,"body":"And then when you leave"},{"startTime":2569.778,"endTime":2571.73,"body":"the change stops, right."},{"startTime":2571.73,"endTime":2574.834,"body":"And that's not what you want, you want"},{"startTime":2571.73,"endTime":2574.834,"body":"it to be sustainable and that's probably"},{"startTime":2574.834,"endTime":2576.295,"body":"how you should be rewarded, I would say."}]}